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This bodes ill for Boris Johnson – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,126
edited June 2023 in General
This bodes ill for Boris Johnson – politicalbetting.com

Johnson's has no legal recourse if he objects to findingsPrivileges committee says only that it will take further submissions 'into account''If committee decides to criticise Mr Johnson it will not come to final conclusion until it has taken into account further submissions'

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,297
    First like Labour in Uxbridge and South Ruislip.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,512

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,228
    edited June 2023
    If on the other hand Boris wins a forced by election he would be hugely boosted and heir apparent and Prince over the Water to be Leader of the Opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    I would not rule it out. Hillingdon council (which contains Uxbridge) stayed Tory last year when Boris was still PM despite the Tories losing control of flagship London councils like Westminster, Wandsworth and Barnet to Labour.

    Hillingdon also was 56% Leave with the LDs a poor 3rd in Uxbridge in the general election of 2019 on just 6% and Labour are far worse at by elections than the LDs are
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Wasn't a decision to prorogue questioned by the courts?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited June 2023
    Quick return before I nip out to the park - I hope this is the end of the line for Bozo, like the obviously more serious charges coming up for Trump soon.

    Salut from a sunny London !
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Wasn't a decision to prorogue questioned by the courts?
    Not being allowed to make decisions isn't quite the same thing, I suppose. And of course prorogation was by the PM and Crown, not Parliament per se.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,512
    edited June 2023

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Wasn't a decision to prorogue questioned by the courts?
    The prerogative power was questioned by the courts.
    it was exercised by the Crown on the advice of the PM, not by Parliament.

    Parliament may delegate powers - but the exercise of delegated powers is very much subject to judicial review.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    edited June 2023
    Chiltern hundreds, a year-odd of lecture tours and schmoozing selection committees in proper safe seats.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,512
    Were the 18-24 year olds who responded to the poll just taking the piss ?
    That seems marginally more likely than their being solidly Conservative.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,512
    Further to Leon's 'the US is f*cked' narrative.

    Factory Boom Sweeps US With Construction at Record $190 Billion
    Manufacturing share of construction spending at 30-year high
    Surge of investment follows incentives for US-made chips, EVs
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-06-01/factory-boom-sweeps-us-with-construction-at-record-190-billion
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,836
    edited June 2023
    The point has been made previously that the standards and privileges process is not so much a legalistic process as a political one (at least not predominantly, the law as a whole still matters) - it is supposed to be, hence why complaining much of this is political is slightly misplaced (the difference being if it is overtly partisan). Big cases like this involving high paid barristers and attempts to bring in all manner of legal concerns are not really what it is all about, and a rarity. As NigelB notes this is more a proceeding of parliament and how it censures its own members.

    That is one reason why people reach for lawyers in these situations, to try to turn it into a more legalistic process, so they can give a pretext for supporters to say some super high standard of law has not occurred, and thus it is unfair. They act like everything must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, they bring in extraneous and abstract legal arguments to distract from basic factual questions, they claim they never got a chance to put their view or were ignored (no matter how much oppoirtunity they had, and whether it is more they were simply disagreed with), adding in a dash of saying it was a long time ago and trivial.

    The response of the intransigent is always to delay, obfuscate, and complicate, then complain about the delay and confusion as making things unfair on them - that occurs when investigating parish council conduct or MP conduct.

    As TSE notes the committee, evidence and process will thus be denounced. Outriders have been calling it a kangaroo court from the beginning to prepare for that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,512
    edited June 2023
    kle4 said:

    The point has been made previously that the standards and privileges process is not so much a legalistic process as a political one (at least not predominantly, the law as a whole still matters) - it is supposed to be, hence why complaining much of this is political is slightly misplaced (the difference being if it is overtly partisan). Big cases like this involving high paid barristers and attempts to bring in all manner of legal concerns are not really what it is all about, and a rarity. As NigelB notes this is more a proceeding of parliament and how it censures its own members.

    That is one reason why people reach for lawyers in these situations, to try to turn it into a more legalistic process, so they can give a pretext for supporters to say some super high standard of law has not occurred, and thus it is unfair. They act like everything must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, they bring in extraneous and abstract legal arguments to distract from basic factual questions, they claim they never got a chance to put their view or were ignored (no matter how much oppoirtunity they had, and whether it is more they were simply disagreed with), adding in a dash of saying it was a long time ago and trivial.

    The response of the intransigent is to delay, obfuscate, and complicate, then complain about the delay and confusion as making things unfair on them - that occurs when investigating parish council conduct or MP conduct - as TSE notes the committee, evidence and process will thus be denounced. Outriders have been calling it a kangaroo court from the beginning to prepare for that.

    If their fat friend doesn't like the verdict, he can take his appeal directly to the electorate in his constituency.

    "....that occurs when investigating parish council conduct or MP conduct". Or when ex Presidents are facing criminal indictment.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,836
    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    The point has been made previously that the standards and privileges process is not so much a legalistic process as a political one (at least not predominantly, the law as a whole still matters) - it is supposed to be, hence why complaining much of this is political is slightly misplaced (the difference being if it is overtly partisan). Big cases like this involving high paid barristers and attempts to bring in all manner of legal concerns are not really what it is all about, and a rarity. As NigelB notes this is more a proceeding of parliament and how it censures its own members.

    That is one reason why people reach for lawyers in these situations, to try to turn it into a more legalistic process, so they can give a pretext for supporters to say some super high standard of law has not occurred, and thus it is unfair. They act like everything must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, they bring in extraneous and abstract legal arguments to distract from basic factual questions, they claim they never got a chance to put their view or were ignored (no matter how much oppoirtunity they had, and whether it is more they were simply disagreed with), adding in a dash of saying it was a long time ago and trivial.

    The response of the intransigent is to delay, obfuscate, and complicate, then complain about the delay and confusion as making things unfair on them - that occurs when investigating parish council conduct or MP conduct - as TSE notes the committee, evidence and process will thus be denounced. Outriders have been calling it a kangaroo court from the beginning to prepare for that.

    If their fat friend doesn't like the verdict, he can take his appeal directly to the electorate in his constituency.
    If they even recommend a sanction which will lead to a recall in the first place.

    There are issues with the recall process, but it actually has some pretty fair aspects in terms of protecting someone from partisan political punishment or silencing an MP.

    1) Even when punished only significant punishment can trigger a recall petition.

    2) Even if there is a recall petition you need a significant number of your electorate to force a by-election.

    3) Even if that threshold is met, you can stand in the subsequent by-election, so your voters are the ones judging you and can decide the process has been punishment enough if they want.

    Christopher Davies was a convicted fraudster and only lost by 4.5% in his recall.

    Given I felt at the start Boris wouldn't face a recall petition for his actions it isn't even a case where I simply want him out and work the reasoning to get there.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,512
    Dozens Of Dutch F-16s Were Just Freed Up Potentially For Ukraine
    Draken, a U.S. adversary air contractor, will now take just six former Dutch F-16 fighter jets, leaving more potentially for Ukraine.
    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/dozens-of-dutch-f-16s-were-just-freed-up-potentially-for-ukraine
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687
    Hit the sack. Genuine lol.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,836
    edited June 2023

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Wasn't a decision to prorogue questioned by the courts?
    It was - but whether it could be was the critical question at play. I have to admit it was one instance where I was less than fully convinced by a legal judgement (usually they are so well written I agree with the reasoning regardless of where I started).

    The determination there was that prorogation was something done to parliament, not a proceeding of parliament, I believe.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,297
    edited June 2023

    Hit the sack. Genuine lol.

    The lessons you learn the hard way but I’m glad someone has picked up on my subtle joke.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Hit the sack. Genuine lol.

    The lessons you learn the hard way but I’m glad someone has picked up on my subtle joke.
    He definitely needs to get the sack.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,069
    edited June 2023
    ydoethur said:

    Hit the sack. Genuine lol.

    The lessons you learn the hard way but I’m glad someone has picked up on my subtle joke.
    He definitely needs to get the sack.
    And Bori i definitely a hit.

    (I have an unreliable letter key between r and t.)
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,471
    Great thread by @TSE

    This could be fun.

    My instinct says Bozzatron will NOT hold the seat. In fact, I reckon he’d get his sorry arse kicked as every part-time Labour piss artist in west London rolls up to get the vote out against him.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,200
    Surely the privileges committee should make their conclusion and that’s it. Seems very bizarre to allow Johnson more time to respond.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,069

    Great thread by @TSE

    This could be fun.

    My instinct says Bozzatron will NOT hold the seat. In fact, I reckon he’d get his sorry arse kicked as every part-time Labour piss artist in west London rolls up to get the vote out against him.

    And Boris does have form for slinking away when he smells incoming defeat. See the leadership elections of 2016 and autumn 2022.

    If it comes to it, which is the greater career risk for Boris here? Fighting and losing, or not fighting at all?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    ydoethur said:

    Hit the sack. Genuine lol.

    The lessons you learn the hard way but I’m glad someone has picked up on my subtle joke.
    He definitely needs to get the sack.
    And Bori i definitely a hit.

    (I have an unreliable letter key between r and t.)
    Speaking of getting sacked, I wonder if he is well hung.

    I would say, not well enough yet...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Great thread by @TSE

    This could be fun.

    My instinct says Bozzatron will NOT hold the seat. In fact, I reckon he’d get his sorry arse kicked as every part-time Labour piss artist in west London rolls up to get the vote out against him.

    I doubt it. I think however sweet revenge might feel Corbyn would sit this one out.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,228
    edited June 2023
    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen was NOT Chief Executive merely at most Chair of the Board as Head of State, the PM is Chief Executive as Head of Government and Chief Minister of the Crown
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687

    Hit the sack. Genuine lol.

    The lessons you learn the hard way but I’m glad someone has picked up on my subtle joke.
    Subtlety has always been your hallmark.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,986
    The trouble is that every by-election gives Sunak a walloping, and the social proof means it reinforces negative poll ratings.

    If he has to hold several over Boris and Boris's resignation list then hold them all at once in a batch.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,228
    edited June 2023

    Great thread by @TSE

    This could be fun.

    My instinct says Bozzatron will NOT hold the seat. In fact, I reckon he’d get his sorry arse kicked as every part-time Labour piss artist in west London rolls up to get the vote out against him.

    In 56% Leave Uxbridge a load of half cut West London Labour activists turning out to tell local people to vote against Boris would ensure his re election
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,471
    HYUFD said:

    Great thread by @TSE

    This could be fun.

    My instinct says Bozzatron will NOT hold the seat. In fact, I reckon he’d get his sorry arse kicked as every part-time Labour piss artist in west London rolls up to get the vote out against him.

    In 56% Leave Uxbridge a load of half cut West London Labour activists turning out to tell local people to vote against Boris would ensure his re election

    I doubt it, personally.

    But you are often right on such matters so who knows?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,340
    HYUFD said:

    Great thread by @TSE

    This could be fun.

    My instinct says Bozzatron will NOT hold the seat. In fact, I reckon he’d get his sorry arse kicked as every part-time Labour piss artist in west London rolls up to get the vote out against him.

    In 56% Leave Uxbridge a load of half cut West London Labour activists turning out to tell local people to vote against Boris would ensure his re election
    If Uxbridge isn't West London, then where is it?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,200
    The Ashcroft poll is laughable given the results for younger people . Aswell as that the outcome in which a by-election is held would mean that Johnson would have been severely sanctioned by the Commons and would have been found to have deliberately misled the Commons . He would then go into a by-election as a proven liar who pissed all over the memory of the thousands who died of covid .
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,297
    edited June 2023
    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    ROFL, like it matters who helps Labour to campaign in Uxbridge, this isn't Corbyn years anymore.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,228
    edited June 2023
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Great thread by @TSE

    This could be fun.

    My instinct says Bozzatron will NOT hold the seat. In fact, I reckon he’d get his sorry arse kicked as every part-time Labour piss artist in west London rolls up to get the vote out against him.

    In 56% Leave Uxbridge a load of half cut West London Labour activists turning out to tell local people to vote against Boris would ensure his re election
    If Uxbridge isn't West London, then where is it?
    Uxbridge is far Outer London, voted heavily Leave and is culturally closer to nearby Slough and south Hertfordshire than overwhelmingly Remain rest of West London
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,228
    edited June 2023

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    It wasn't unlawful until the courts ruled it unlawful, though I suspect the King would have refused Boris a prorogation. Charles III is almost certainly a Remainer, the late Queen likely a Leaver (Camilla is probably a Leaver though, William and Kate also Remainers like the King)
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,270

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    If the Queen had decided to ignore the advise/instruction of her Prime Minister you would have been complaining it showed she was a political figure exceeding her authority and behaving undemocratically.

    Your hatred for the monarchy far outweighs any logical arguments that could be made one way or another.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,836
    edited June 2023

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Your gag on that never works because obviously you do not want the Monarch to actually exercise political power like that to 'save' or hinder us, and neither does practically anyone but HYUFD. So the premise of the 'outrage' falls flat and the joke fails. Are we to believe Republic would be credible saying 'the King should have and exercise the power to reject a PM's requests/demands'?

    It would work better as a gag from someone who does support the monarchy, since they support the implicit power of the monarch so it might be plausible as a complaint.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,069
    nico679 said:

    The Ashcroft poll is laughable given the results for younger people . Aswell as that the outcome in which a by-election is held would mean that Johnson would have been severely sanctioned by the Commons and would have been found to have deliberately misled the Commons . He would then go into a by-election as a proven liar who pissed all over the memory of the thousands who died of covid .

    The best bit of commentary on that Ashcroft poll:

    Among the 60% of people who knew Johnson was their MP, Johnson led by ~15 pts.

    Among the 40% who did not, Johnson led by ~20 pts.

    It's not about his local popularity. It's just nonsense polling. Nothing to explain here.


    https://twitter.com/Beyond_Topline/status/1666105233020186625
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    edited June 2023
    Good evening

    Just returned from my son in law's father's funeral

    At 90 it was a celebration of a life well lived with generosity of spirit to all

    I just hope that Johnson, if found guilty, resigns and takes a new course in his life

    The country is utterly fatigued of his soap opera
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,297
    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,228

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    No he wouldn't, we would have removed him first. He would have to have joined the Brexit Party, he could not be a Tory and back a republic
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,200
    If Johnson is found to have lied to the Commons he will likely resign his seat as he couldn’t stomach losing a by-election. Personally I think he avoids any sanction that would lead to a 10 day suspension . The Tories on the committee won’t want to start a civil war .
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    No he wouldn't, we would have removed him first. He would have to have joined the Brexit Party, he could not be a Tory and back a republic
    Why not
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,836

    Great thread by @TSE

    This could be fun.

    My instinct says Bozzatron will NOT hold the seat. In fact, I reckon he’d get his sorry arse kicked as every part-time Labour piss artist in west London rolls up to get the vote out against him.

    And Boris does have form for slinking away when he smells incoming defeat. See the leadership elections of 2016 and autumn 2022.

    If it comes to it, which is the greater career risk for Boris here? Fighting and losing, or not fighting at all?
    He fights. Not fighting lets Rishi off the hook somewhat, whereas fighting means the party will absolutely back him and Rishi will need to be behind him as he would any Tory candidate.

    Sure, he might lose, but he can still say that was down to how hated Rishi was (if undermining his own legend as being able to win even if others could not).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    So you're admitting it was all Johnson's fault and nothing to do with the Queen?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    Nigelb said:

    Further to Leon's 'the US is f*cked' narrative.

    Factory Boom Sweeps US With Construction at Record $190 Billion
    Manufacturing share of construction spending at 30-year high
    Surge of investment follows incentives for US-made chips, EVs
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-06-01/factory-boom-sweeps-us-with-construction-at-record-190-billion

    Government spending stimulates investment? The least surprising news since West Ham won the European Somethingorother Cup last night.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,228
    edited June 2023

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    No he wouldn't, we would have removed him first. He would have to have joined the Brexit Party, he could not be a Tory and back a republic
    Why not
    As the Tory Party was founded in the 18th century to support the Crown and the future King James' right of succession
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    nico679 said:

    The Ashcroft poll is laughable given the results for younger people . Aswell as that the outcome in which a by-election is held would mean that Johnson would have been severely sanctioned by the Commons and would have been found to have deliberately misled the Commons . He would then go into a by-election as a proven liar who pissed all over the memory of the thousands who died of covid .

    The best bit of commentary on that Ashcroft poll:

    Among the 60% of people who knew Johnson was their MP, Johnson led by ~15 pts.

    Among the 40% who did not, Johnson led by ~20 pts.

    It's not about his local popularity. It's just nonsense polling. Nothing to explain here.


    https://twitter.com/Beyond_Topline/status/1666105233020186625
    Ashcroft polling nonsense?

    You'll be telling us next TSE has a mild dislike of Max Verstappen.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,986

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    If the Queen had decided to ignore the advise/instruction of her Prime Minister you would have been complaining it showed she was a political figure exceeding her authority and behaving undemocratically.

    Your hatred for the monarchy far outweighs any logical arguments that could be made one way or another.
    Thankfully, everyone ignores him.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    No he wouldn't, we would have removed him first. He would have to have joined the Brexit Party, he could not be a Tory and back a republic
    Why not
    As the Tory Party was founded in the 18th century to support the Crown and the future King James' right of succession
    Times change
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,228

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    No he wouldn't, we would have removed him first. He would have to have joined the Brexit Party, he could not be a Tory and back a republic
    Why not
    As the Tory Party was founded in the 18th century to support the Crown and the future King James' right of succession
    Times change
    Core principles don't
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,986
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    So you're admitting it was all Johnson's fault and nothing to do with the Queen?
    QED
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,270
    edited June 2023
    nico679 said:

    If Johnson is found to have lied to the Commons he will likely resign his seat as he couldn’t stomach losing a by-election. Personally I think he avoids any sanction that would lead to a 10 day suspension . The Tories on the committee won’t want to start a civil war .

    I would like that to be true but I fear he still harbours ambitions to lead the aprty again and the best way to do that is to be an MP after the next election when the Tories are in opposition. I think he will fight any by-election even if it is likely he would lose.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    edited June 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Great thread by @TSE

    This could be fun.

    My instinct says Bozzatron will NOT hold the seat. In fact, I reckon he’d get his sorry arse kicked as every part-time Labour piss artist in west London rolls up to get the vote out against him.

    In 56% Leave Uxbridge a load of half cut West London Labour activists turning out to tell local people to vote against Boris would ensure his re election
    In December 2019, 2016 Leave voters backed the Conservatives over Labour by 73-15. The latest Deltapoll has that down to 42-34 which is a 25% swing to Labour among LEAVE voters.

    Among REMAIN voters, Labour's 48-20 lead is now 50-19 so hardly any move.

    It's the 2016 LEAVE voters who have abandoned the Conservatives for Labour and Reform so I would expect bigger swings from Conservative to Labour in seats with higher numbers of 2016 Leave voters. That will help the Conservatives slightly as those are the seats with the bigger Conservative majorities but even so...

    The current split is 60% Rejoin, 40% Stay Out.

    Crunch the above numbers and you get Labour at 43% and the Conservatives at 28% which isn't far off the headline VI figures. Labour have half the "rejoiners" and a third of the "stay outers" but the former are a much bigger cohort now than the latter.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    No he wouldn't, we would have removed him first. He would have to have joined the Brexit Party, he could not be a Tory and back a republic
    Why not
    As the Tory Party was founded in the 18th century to support the Crown and the future King James' right of succession
    Times change
    Core principles don't
    Your core principles are not mine but we both vote conservative
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    Remember Boris had to be talked out of infecting Her Majesty with Covid, so it was left to long-time anti-monarchist Liz Truss to see the old girl off and kickstart the rise of Penny Mordaunt.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    edited June 2023
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    No he wouldn't, we would have removed him first. He would have to have joined the Brexit Party, he could not be a Tory and back a republic
    Why not
    As the Tory Party was founded in the 18th century to support the Crown and the future King James' right of succession
    Times change
    Core principles don't
    You mean, the one that says piss off to the Continent and die a drunken sot in Rome? Quite a big change of core principle there, not supporting Jameses VII/II and VIII/III and Charles III (first one).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,228
    edited June 2023

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    No he wouldn't, we would have removed him first. He would have to have joined the Brexit Party, he could not be a Tory and back a republic
    Why not
    As the Tory Party was founded in the 18th century to support the Crown and the future King James' right of succession
    Times change
    Core principles don't
    Your core principles are not mine but we both vote conservative
    You aren't a Tory, you would have been a Whig in the 18th century like TSE.

    You are only a Conservative in that you normally won't vote Labour
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,297
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    So you're admitting it was all Johnson's fault and nothing to do with the Queen?
    No, a directly elected Head of State would have had the authority to reject the unlawful prorogation.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,228
    edited June 2023
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    No he wouldn't, we would have removed him first. He would have to have joined the Brexit Party, he could not be a Tory and back a republic
    Why not
    As the Tory Party was founded in the 18th century to support the Crown and the future King James' right of succession
    Times change
    Core principles don't
    You mean, the one that says piss off to the Continent and die a drunken sot in Rome? Quite a big change of core principle there, not supporting Jameses VII/II and VIII/III and Charles III (first one).
    That was the Whig Edward Russell, Earl of Oxford who was key in that.

    The Tories began as the party which most supported a strong Crown under Charles II as a counterbalance to Parliament's power. In the Exclusion crisis the Tories were also reluctant to give Parliament the power to remove the Duke of York as Heir to the throne unlike the Whigs who supported his exclusion via Parliament from the line of succession.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,270

    Nigelb said:

    Further to Leon's 'the US is f*cked' narrative.

    Factory Boom Sweeps US With Construction at Record $190 Billion
    Manufacturing share of construction spending at 30-year high
    Surge of investment follows incentives for US-made chips, EVs
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-06-01/factory-boom-sweeps-us-with-construction-at-record-190-billion

    Government spending stimulates investment? The least surprising news since West Ham won the European Somethingorother Cup last night.
    Well as a life long West Ham supporter I was surprised. :) I thought West Ham always lived up to the words of their most famous song.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,270

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    So you're admitting it was all Johnson's fault and nothing to do with the Queen?
    No, a directly elected Head of State would have had the authority to reject the unlawful prorogation.
    So you want a political head of state who can challenge the authority of the democratically elected Parliament.

    No thanks.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,297

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    So you're admitting it was all Johnson's fault and nothing to do with the Queen?
    No, a directly elected Head of State would have had the authority to reject the unlawful prorogation.
    So you want a political head of state who can challenge the authority of the democratically elected Parliament.

    No thanks.
    Only when the government put forward unlawful acts.

    Right now the monarch will acquiesce to all sorts of bullshit.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,069
    edited June 2023

    nico679 said:

    If Johnson is found to have lied to the Commons he will likely resign his seat as he couldn’t stomach losing a by-election. Personally I think he avoids any sanction that would lead to a 10 day suspension . The Tories on the committee won’t want to start a civil war .

    I would like that to be true but I fear he still harbours ambitions to lead the aprty again and the best way to do that is to be an MP after the next election when the Tories are in opposition. I think he will fight any by-election even if it is likely he would lose.
    The alternative pathway goes like this. Step away from an Uxbridge by-election. (He's pretty likely to lose on national swing.) Claim that it's for the good of the party, don't want to be a distraction blah blah blah. Spend the next year being a distraction.

    Come the next election, notice that the polls are still grisly for Rishi. Offer to stand somewhere ubersafe so that he can save the party and country again. After all, he thinks he's Churchill and he was MP for five different constituencies over his career.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    So you're admitting it was all Johnson's fault and nothing to do with the Queen?
    No, a directly elected Head of State would have had the authority to reject the unlawful prorogation.
    So you want a political head of state who can challenge the authority of the democratically elected Parliament.

    No thanks.
    Only when the government put forward unlawful acts.

    Right now the monarch will acquiesce to all sorts of bullshit.
    Dont be a pillock it wasn't unlawful till it was tested in court. Our monarchs are not versed in law and in a position to decide what is lawful vs unlawful
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    So you're admitting it was all Johnson's fault and nothing to do with the Queen?
    No, a directly elected Head of State would have had the authority to reject the unlawful prorogation.
    Like Isaac Herzog has been able to reject Binjamin Netanyahu's unlawful changes to the Israeli constitution?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    No he wouldn't, we would have removed him first. He would have to have joined the Brexit Party, he could not be a Tory and back a republic
    Why not
    As the Tory Party was founded in the 18th century to support the Crown and the future King James' right of succession
    Times change
    Core principles don't
    Your core principles are not mine but we both vote conservative
    You aren't a Tory, you would have been a Whig in the 18th century like TSE.

    You are only a Conservative in that you normally won't vote Labour
    How insulting

    Tell that to the local party who I assisted in every election from 1965 apart from 1997 and 2001

    Tell that to the late Lord Wyn Roberts and David Jones who I acted as their driver throughout several campaigns

    The truth is you are a far right evangelical little englander with very little in common with very many conservatives

  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,069

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    No he wouldn't, we would have removed him first. He would have to have joined the Brexit Party, he could not be a Tory and back a republic
    Why not
    As the Tory Party was founded in the 18th century to support the Crown and the future King James' right of succession
    Times change
    Core principles don't
    Your core principles are not mine but we both vote conservative
    You aren't a Tory, you would have been a Whig in the 18th century like TSE.

    You are only a Conservative in that you normally won't vote Labour
    How insulting

    Tell that to the local party who I assisted in every election from 1965 apart from 1997 and 2001

    Tell that to the late Lord Wyn Roberts and David Jones who I acted as their driver throughout several campaigns

    The truth is you are a far right evangelical little englander with very little in common with very many conservatives

    It's not that long ago that Corbynistas were telling Labour moderates to go away and join the Tories. How the rest of us pointed and laughed as moderate Labour voters did just that.

    Now we're seeing the same effect on the right, from people who seem to think that the Peter Simple column in the old Telegraph was news not satire. I'm confident in predicting the same outcome.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    No he wouldn't, we would have removed him first. He would have to have joined the Brexit Party, he could not be a Tory and back a republic
    Why not
    As the Tory Party was founded in the 18th century to support the Crown and the future King James' right of succession
    Times change
    Core principles don't
    Your core principles are not mine but we both vote conservative
    You aren't a Tory, you would have been a Whig in the 18th century like TSE.

    You are only a Conservative in that you normally won't vote Labour
    How insulting

    Tell that to the local party who I assisted in every election from 1965 apart from 1997 and 2001

    Tell that to the late Lord Wyn Roberts and David Jones who I acted as their driver throughout several campaigns

    The truth is you are a far right evangelical little englander with very little in common with very many conservatives

    Why argue with HYUFD...he is always on message in the hope of climbing the greasy pole and becoming an mp. Sadly for him I suspect there are people from CCHQ who read here and probably will regard him as too dodgy
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,228
    edited June 2023

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    No he wouldn't, we would have removed him first. He would have to have joined the Brexit Party, he could not be a Tory and back a republic
    Why not
    As the Tory Party was founded in the 18th century to support the Crown and the future King James' right of succession
    Times change
    Core principles don't
    Your core principles are not mine but we both vote conservative
    You aren't a Tory, you would have been a Whig in the 18th century like TSE.

    You are only a Conservative in that you normally won't vote Labour
    How insulting

    Tell that to the local party who I assisted in every election from 1965 apart from 1997 and 2001

    Tell that to the late Lord Wyn Roberts and David Jones who I acted as their driver throughout several campaigns

    The truth is you are a far right evangelical little englander with very little in common with very many conservatives

    Last time I checked 1967 was the 20th century NOT the 18th century.

    Today's Conservative Party is a coalition of 18th century Whigs, 19th century Liberals and Tories to defeat Labour socialism.

    In the 18th century before the rise of Labour you would still have been a Whig not a Tory
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,062
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    No he wouldn't, we would have removed him first. He would have to have joined the Brexit Party, he could not be a Tory and back a republic
    Why not
    As the Tory Party was founded in the 18th century to support the Crown and the future King James' right of succession
    The decision to support James VII and II was retracted within three years of it being made and the Tories worked with the Whigs to ensure the succession of William III and Mary II after the Glorious Revolution in 1688.

    However, when the Tories hesitated about the Protestant succession in 1714, they were locked out of power for more than 50 years and essentially disappeared until being refounded in the 1780s by Pitt the Younger after the loss of the North American colonies.

    The extinction of the modern Tories is a consummation devoutly to be wished.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    No he wouldn't, we would have removed him first. He would have to have joined the Brexit Party, he could not be a Tory and back a republic
    Why not
    As the Tory Party was founded in the 18th century to support the Crown and the future King James' right of succession
    Times change
    Core principles don't
    Your core principles are not mine but we both vote conservative
    You aren't a Tory, you would have been a Whig in the 18th century like TSE.

    You are only a Conservative in that you normally won't vote Labour
    How insulting

    Tell that to the local party who I assisted in every election from 1965 apart from 1997 and 2001

    Tell that to the late Lord Wyn Roberts and David Jones who I acted as their driver throughout several campaigns

    The truth is you are a far right evangelical little englander with very little in common with very many conservatives

    Last time I checked 1967 was the 20th century NOT the 18th century.

    Today's Conservative Party is a coalition of 18th century Whigs, 19th century Liberals and Tories to defeat Labour socialism.

    In the 18th century before the rise of Labour you would still have been a Whig not a Tory
    As @Pagan2 has just commented he has accurately called you out
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,255
    Nicely constructed gratuitous reference Mr. TSE :)
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,471

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    If the Queen had decided to ignore the advise/instruction of her Prime Minister you would have been complaining it showed she was a political figure exceeding her authority and behaving undemocratically.

    Your hatred for the monarchy far outweighs any logical arguments that could be made one way or another.
    Thankfully, everyone ignores him.
    The monarchy is pretty passé, I agree with you.

    A load of chinless wonders mithering the country with their shitty, basic bitch PR. I can completely understand why you are sick
    of it all.

    Maybe King Andrew is the answer?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,297
    Pro_Rata said:

    Nicely constructed gratuitous reference Mr. TSE :)

    I did worry it was a bit too subtle.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578
    Maybe the Good Lord wants to give Boris a false sense of security?
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,317
    edited June 2023
    This is an interesting technical article about the process and costs involved in modular building, a subject that comes up sometimes.

    https://www.building.co.uk/cost-data/cost-comparison-the-pros-and-cons-of-volumetric-construction-in-housing/5123530.article

    If you get down to the end there is a costed example of the breakdown of build costs associated with a 47 storey tower. The cost of building it is £4k/sqm. This excludes fees, VAT, demolitions, site clearance, external works, incoming utilities, section 106/278 payments, carbon offset payments. And obvs, the cost of the land.

    The example is for student accommodation with a high standard of fit out but it is broadly comparable to market housing.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    So you're admitting it was all Johnson's fault and nothing to do with the Queen?
    No, a directly elected Head of State would have had the authority to reject the unlawful prorogation.
    So you want a political head of state who can challenge the authority of the democratically elected Parliament.

    No thanks.
    Actually, we have more unelected Parliamentarians (Lords) than elected (MPs).
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,789

    The truth is you are a far right evangelical little englander with very little in common with very many conservatives

    I read that as "very manly conservatives". It was confusing.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    viewcode said:

    The truth is you are a far right evangelical little englander with very little in common with very many conservatives

    I read that as "very manly conservatives". It was confusing.
    There are no manly conservatives, they probably get their servants to impregnate their wives
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,471
    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    No he wouldn't, we would have removed him first. He would have to have joined the Brexit Party, he could not be a Tory and back a republic
    Why not
    As the Tory Party was founded in the 18th century to support the Crown and the future King James' right of succession
    Times change
    Core principles don't
    Your core principles are not mine but we both vote conservative
    You aren't a Tory, you would have been a Whig in the 18th century like TSE.

    You are only a Conservative in that you normally won't vote Labour
    How insulting

    Tell that to the local party who I assisted in every election from 1965 apart from 1997 and 2001

    Tell that to the late Lord Wyn Roberts and David Jones who I acted as their driver throughout several campaigns

    The truth is you are a far right evangelical little englander with very little in common with very many conservatives

    Why argue with HYUFD...he is always on message in the hope of climbing the greasy pole and becoming an mp. Sadly for him I suspect there are people from CCHQ who read here and probably will regard him as too dodgy
    We could do far worse. For all the opprobrium he attracts on here, HY is a good man. A community spirited figure who does a great deal for his local area.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    No he wouldn't, we would have removed him first. He would have to have joined the Brexit Party, he could not be a Tory and back a republic
    Why not
    As the Tory Party was founded in the 18th century to support the Crown and the future King James' right of succession
    Times change
    Core principles don't
    Your core principles are not mine but we both vote conservative
    You aren't a Tory, you would have been a Whig in the 18th century like TSE.

    You are only a Conservative in that you normally won't vote Labour
    How insulting

    Tell that to the local party who I assisted in every election from 1965 apart from 1997 and 2001

    Tell that to the late Lord Wyn Roberts and David Jones who I acted as their driver throughout several campaigns

    The truth is you are a far right evangelical little englander with very little in common with very many conservatives

    Why argue with HYUFD...he is always on message in the hope of climbing the greasy pole and becoming an mp. Sadly for him I suspect there are people from CCHQ who read here and probably will regard him as too dodgy
    We could do far worse. For all the opprobrium he attracts on here, HY is a good man. A community spirited figure who does a great deal for his local area.
    Sorry I disagree, HYUFD has expressed views on here that make me think he is uncaring, unempathetic and a total idiot.....so have you. No wonder you two have a thing.
  • There are signs the average Con is doing better in London than elsewhere - if only because they had sunk so low there in 2017-9.

    Johnson, of course, is not the average Con. Whether that works in his favour or the very reverse is a question we may have answered soon.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    No he wouldn't, we would have removed him first. He would have to have joined the Brexit Party, he could not be a Tory and back a republic
    Why not
    As the Tory Party was founded in the 18th century to support the Crown and the future King James' right of succession
    Times change
    Core principles don't
    Your core principles are not mine but we both vote conservative
    You aren't a Tory, you would have been a Whig in the 18th century like TSE.

    You are only a Conservative in that you normally won't vote Labour
    How insulting

    Tell that to the local party who I assisted in every election from 1965 apart from 1997 and 2001

    Tell that to the late Lord Wyn Roberts and David Jones who I acted as their driver throughout several campaigns

    The truth is you are a far right evangelical little englander with very little in common with very many conservatives

    Why argue with HYUFD...he is always on message in the hope of climbing the greasy pole and becoming an mp. Sadly for him I suspect there are people from CCHQ who read here and probably will regard him as too dodgy
    We could do far worse. For all the opprobrium he attracts on here, HY is a good man. A community spirited figure who does a great deal for his local area.
    He's moved from Epping.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Wasn't a decision to prorogue questioned by the courts?
    Prorogation was not a decision of parliament.

  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800

    There are signs the average Con is doing better in London than elsewhere - if only because they had sunk so low there in 2017-9.

    Johnson, of course, is not the average Con. Whether that works in his favour or the very reverse is a question we may have answered soon.

    Rather as with this year's local contests, the 2022 London locals had a patchwork of results. The Conservatives did do well in Bexley, Hillingdon, Harrow and retained their strength in Kensington & Chelsea.

    The fact remains they lost Westminster, Barnet and Wandsworth to Labour while at the same time losing heavily in Kingston, Richmond and Bromley but doing okay in Sutton against the LDs.

    That's the thing with local elections and there may be clues for GE predictions - look at where the Conservative local vote has held up as distinct from where it collapsed.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    DavidL errs here, which is rare. Prorogation is not an action of parliament.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,297
    edited June 2023
    From yesterday.

    Alan Turing killed himself 69 years ago today. He broke the Nazi Enigma code in WWII, leading to victory over Hitler.

    Turing was chemically castrated by the British state for being gay. His suicide warns us today of where intolerance and hatred can lead to. #PrideMonth


    https://twitter.com/xruiztru/status/1666346025492131841
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    edited June 2023
    The University of Cambridge is among almost a dozen UK universities accused of helping to develop Iran’s weapons including “suicide drones”.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/08/drones-cambridge-iran-raf-ukraine-suicide-universities/ (£££)

    Almost a dozen? It would have been easier to type 11. ETA 11 was used in the headline so this is "inelegant variation".
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,582
    darkage said:

    This is an interesting technical article about the process and costs involved in modular building, a subject that comes up sometimes.

    https://www.building.co.uk/cost-data/cost-comparison-the-pros-and-cons-of-volumetric-construction-in-housing/5123530.article

    If you get down to the end there is a costed example of the breakdown of build costs associated with a 47 storey tower. The cost of building it is £4k/sqm. This excludes fees, VAT, demolitions, site clearance, external works, incoming utilities, section 106/278 payments, carbon offset payments. And obvs, the cost of the land.

    The example is for student accommodation with a high standard of fit out but it is broadly comparable to market housing.

    Seems high.

    New 4/5 bed detacheds are currently being built and sold by both Persimmon and Redrow in Shaftesbury for approx £4k per m2 but that clearly covers all the ancilliary costs you list above, plus the plot, plus a tidy profit no doubt.

    They must be building them for <£2k per m2. Flats should be cheaper - much less actual building per m2.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    So you're admitting it was all Johnson's fault and nothing to do with the Queen?
    No, a directly elected Head of State would have had the authority to reject the unlawful prorogation.
    So you want a political head of state who can challenge the authority of the democratically elected Parliament.

    No thanks.
    That’s my plan.

    My campaign speech is here - https://youtu.be/XEECxN5P1nw
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    From yesterday.

    Alan Turing killed himself 69 years ago today. He broke the Nazi Enigma code in WWII, leading to victory over Hitler.

    Turing was chemically castrated by the British state for being gay. His suicide warns us today of where intolerance and hatred can lead to. #PrideMonth


    https://twitter.com/xruiztru/status/1666346025492131841

    It is highly questionable whether he committed suicide.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,836
    SouthamObserver is right, as this sort of thing is just pathetic, though the corrollary is when people really overreact either to americans not saying such a thing, or wetting themselves to things like Aussie tv presenters guffawing over a trade deal - it's needy in another direction

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,270

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    So you're admitting it was all Johnson's fault and nothing to do with the Queen?
    No, a directly elected Head of State would have had the authority to reject the unlawful prorogation.
    So you want a political head of state who can challenge the authority of the democratically elected Parliament.

    No thanks.
    Only when the government put forward unlawful acts.

    Right now the monarch will acquiesce to all sorts of bullshit.
    And who but the courts decide it is unlawful? As I say you want a political head of state and when you have one you will moan about their decisions as well.

    Best to ignore your wishes as they are based simply on being contrary and have no basis in logic.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,270
    kle4 said:

    SouthamObserver is right, as this sort of thing is just pathetic, though the corrollary is when people really overreact either to americans not saying such a thing, or wetting themselves to things like Aussie tv presenters guffawing over a trade deal - it's needy in another direction

    This is just the media doing what they do and making fools of themselves. It does not reflect the country - except perhaps for a few weird MPs and a couple of PB posters
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,836
    edited June 2023

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Legal question, why does Johnson have no legal recourse?

    Because Parliament is supreme.
    Its decisions can't be questioned by the courts.
    Well, except when they are, of course. The Prorogation decision, whilst understandable on its facts, did nothing for clarity in this area.
    Prorogation was an act of the Executive ie the Crown, the Chief Executive being the Queen (we had a civil war to establish the monarch’s executive decisions and those of his or her ministers are amenable to the courts) on the advice of her prime minister done TO Parliament rather than an act of or BY Parliament.
    The Queen did not save us that day, she was a willing participant in an unlawful act.

    I believe the Americans call that an unindicted co-conspirator.
    Out of curiosity, if she had refused to follow the instructions of Dumbinic Cummings and Massive Johnson, would that have made her an unelected dictator in your eyes?
    No.

    Shagger would have called a who governs election on the principle of abolishing the monarchy.

    I consider that an absolute win.
    So you're admitting it was all Johnson's fault and nothing to do with the Queen?
    No, a directly elected Head of State would have had the authority to reject the unlawful prorogation.
    So you want a political head of state who can challenge the authority of the democratically elected Parliament.

    No thanks.
    Only when the government put forward unlawful acts.

    Right now the monarch will acquiesce to all sorts of bullshit.
    And who but the courts decide it is unlawful? As I say you want a political head of state and when you have one you will moan about their decisions as well.

    Best to ignore your wishes as they are based simply on being contrary and have no basis in logic.
    Wanting a political head of state who can challenge the authority of the parliament if it acts unlawfully is not wholly illogical, if that is the system someone wants.

    Pretending to be mad that a figurehead monarch did not act when you want a non figurehead elected head of state is, however, just plain silly. I'm beginning to suspect it isn't a weak joke but considered to be some kind of serious gotcha, which is much worse. Even if it 'succeeds' in getting people to respond it's a weak troll.
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