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This would be great for the Tories but for GE2019 CON don’t knows – politicalbetting.com

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  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,457

    If you have typical doctor's handwriting, it'll all be illegible anyway. ;)

    But seriously: you've never used a post-it note?
    Not for anything other than marking pages in a file, or leaving a note to get more milk etc. For the simple reason that they fall off.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,888

    Er, we're talking about Johnson's WhatsApp messages, and only those that Johnson and/or HMG want redacted. Can't be many 1,000s, if that.
    Potentially more than that. And they all need not just to be read, but also considered for relevance., and cross-referenced with other information to look for inconsistencies.

    I'm not saying that information should not be released; just that it's potentially reasonable for some information not to be. And there lies the devil.

    We've already seen a potential leak, and are seeing piss-taking over things like post-it notes.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,968
    edited June 2023

    Every government also needs secrets; as do individuals. Again, there is a balance.
    Yet again the Enquiry head must decide these things, not the politicians and civil servants under investigation.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/prime-minister-announces-covid-19-inquiry-chair

    you actually trust Sunak and Cabinet Office with confidentiality more than you do Hallet? That’s your position here is it?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,609

    Thanks for making my point for me. :)
    I haven't made your point for you.

    I am quite comfortable with the Beergate investigation. You are not. You must demand the case is reopened and this time Starmer's guilt is tested in court.

    Perhaps for balance the Met should investigate the 5 parties Johnson attended where minions were prosecuted but they didn't pursue Johnson at all.
  • Pagan2 said:

    They can demand all they like whatsapp however is end to end encrypted and cannot hand them over. The fact you dont seem to comprehend that really makes your opinion on this null and void
    Surely it's as simple as creating an unencrypted backup and handing over the resulting file?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,364
    DougSeal said:

    Then the investigator keeps them secret. Someone has to decide if they’re secret or not.
    They have a committee of senior MPs who can make judgements in this sort of situation
  • TresTres Posts: 2,755

    Reports say Boris did say that at one point.

    Is that a failing of Boris, or the government scientists rubbish for not making the seriousness clear enough to him nearly quickly enough.
    He was wandering around hospitals shaking hands with people remember.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,255

    Forget nukes for a minute. How confident do you think Russia would be that a missile fired at a Western city would hit the target?

    Oh they'll hit, but there is a reason why Russian warheads tend to be so huge, the accuracy of the missiles and terminal guidance is terrible. US warheads have typically gotten smaller over time, as the accuracy is crazy good, even hard targets are likely to be killed with a single hit nowadays. There was a fusing upgrade for Trident a few years back that was estimated to triple the probability of a warhead killing a hard target.

    It doesn't take too much brain power to figure out that comparing missile, warhead, and yield numbers is misleading. The US has a bigger punch that it appears, Russia the reverse.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,800

    Er, we're talking about Johnson's WhatsApp messages, and only those that Johnson and/or HMG want redacted. Can't be many 1,000s, if that.
    Sky says Johnson said there are 40 WhatsApp messages

    40 - we do thar a day within the family !!!!

    Mind you that is from May 21 not the ones before apparently lost in space !!!!
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,497

    Surely it's as simple as creating an unencrypted backup and handing over the resulting file?
    Whatsapp dont have the encryption keys hence the name end to end encryption. They cannot decrypt the messages
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,204
    The real smoking gun would be a message from Rishi saying, "Let's ambush him with a cake."
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,288
    ping said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-65780853
    Tripped over a sandbag, reportedly.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,849
    Pagan2 said:

    Actually many governments are arguing that private conversations should be available

    cf Spain
    https://www.techdirt.com/2023/05/26/leaked-document-shows-spain-is-fully-on-board-with-the-eu-commissions-plan-to-criminalize-encryption/
    It is a chilling how few politicians either (a) understand encryption, or (b) care about the civil liberties implications.

    I remember when when wearing a T-Shirt with the RSA algorithm could get you arrested at a US airport.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,968

    Potentially more than that. And they all need not just to be read, but also considered for relevance., and cross-referenced with other information to look for inconsistencies.

    I'm not saying that information should not be released; just that it's potentially reasonable for some information not to be. And there lies the devil.

    We've already seen a potential leak, and are seeing piss-taking over things like post-it notes.
    I think the IT is against you on this one as well.

    Start with emails. Not every email will be saved, when you just save the last one, the thread as the record.

    Things that are paper are quickly digitised and searched through with OCR.

    It won’t take that long for an enquiry to go through the whats apps, nor all the digital records. They will have search tools available for every record they receive.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,288
    Reassuring…

    The US Air Force tested an AI enabled drone that was tasked to destroy specific targets. A human operator had the power to override the drone—and so the drone decided that the human operator was an obstacle to its mission—and attacked him.
    https://twitter.com/ArmandDoma/status/1664331870564147200
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,888

    I haven't made your point for you.

    I am quite comfortable with the Beergate investigation. You are not. You must demand the case is reopened and this time Starmer's guilt is tested in court.

    Perhaps for balance the Met should investigate the 5 parties Johnson attended where minions were prosecuted but they didn't pursue Johnson at all.
    You do realise that you make this sound like a political witch-hunt, rather than an unbiased attempt to get at the truth?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,497
    rcs1000 said:

    It is a chilling how few politicians either (a) understand encryption, or (b) care about the civil liberties implications.

    I remember when when wearing a T-Shirt with the RSA algorithm could get you arrested at a US airport.
    Seems many on here also don't understand the concept with crys of just ask whatsapp for the unecrypted messages
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,800
    edited June 2023

    Er, we're talking about Johnson's WhatsApp messages, and only those that Johnson and/or HMG want redacted. Can't be many 1,000s, if that.
    Replied to wrong message
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,927

    Where does the balance lie between openness to the inquiry and the necessity of government and personal secrecy?

    Politicians and officials need to use one type of communication for official business and another for personal business, and not mix the two.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,609
    edited June 2023
    Pagan2 said:

    They can demand all they like whatsapp however is end to end encrypted and cannot hand them over. The fact you dont seem to comprehend that really makes your opinion on this null and void
    Fairly banged to rights by the Pagan. I'll apologise, but only when you learn to use an apostrophe.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Whatsapp dont have the encryption keys hence the name end to end encryption. They cannot decrypt the messages
    I think we're talking at cross purposes. Yes, end-to-end encryption makes it impossible to intercept messages, but it doesn't stop the recipient from making and unencrypted copy of the messages he or she has received. Failing that, they could just ask Boris to video himself scrolling through his messages!
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,968
    Tres said:

    He was wandering around hospitals shaking hands with people remember.
    Again I say, is that Boris fault? You have to blame the scientists for being too slow to influence.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,888
    Foxy said:

    Not for anything other than marking pages in a file, or leaving a note to get more milk etc. For the simple reason that they fall off.
    Ah, but those might be of relevance to the inquiry! And you don't know what pages were marked. You've destroyed the evidence, as the sections you marked might have given insights to your thoughts! And why were you going out for milk during the lockdown?

    That's the sort of madness we're looking at.

    I use post-it notes all the time; and from many tech places I;ve been into, so do many other people. Very useful for writing short aide-memoires.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,496

    Johnson has nothing to lose. Everybody has more to lose than he does.

    He will not gain by anybody else's loss though.
    Via 'The Thick of It'

    "I''m bored, it's funny and – and I hate you. There you are, the holy trinity of why."
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,609

    Absolutely but at the same time irrelevant information from politicians and civil servants should be filtered out

    You would expect the enquiry judge would do that, but as has been said there is so much to read through it would require a team and of course the risk of a leak of compromising information irrelevant to the enquiry increases, indeed we have seen leaks of questions already asked to Johnson

    It is a mess but then that sums up covid

    Come on BigG. It's all a game being played by Johnson, and he's winning on points against Sunak after round 1.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,364

    What The Actual Fuck?????
    That’s actually a really good example of why government communications should be privileged.

    They need to be able to suggest the really stupid ideas and to debate and analyse all options without it being leaked that the “government considered doing X”
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,888
    Andy_JS said:

    Politicians and officials need to use one type of communication for official business and another for personal business, and not mix the two.
    Indeed. But that's not the whole issue. What about when the same official message covers various official matters? What you're saying is that every message should only ever pertain to one matter, which frankly is impossible.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Seems many on here also don't understand the concept with crys of just ask whatsapp for the unecrypted messages
    They're not asking WhatsApp for the messages; they're asking Boris for the messages.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,274

    Sky says Johnson said there are 40 WhatsApp messages

    40 - we do thar a day within the family !!!!

    Mind you that is from May 21 not the ones before apparently lost in space !!!!
    Takes us a month to get anywhere near that. Even when we’ve got someone in hospital!
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,497

    I think the IT is against you on this one as well.

    Start with emails. Not every email will be saved, when you just save the last one, the thread as the record.

    Things that are paper are quickly digitised and searched through with OCR.

    It won’t take that long for an enquiry to go through the whats apps, nor all the digital records. They will have search tools available for every record they receive.
    Seems more an argument that all governement business be over government networks where all communication can be stored and retrieved. No this does not mean building a new system. Plenty of systems already available they could use for email and whats app alike stuff which would allow message archiving.

    Anyone using channels of electronic communication for government business outside that make it mandatory 20 years in prison
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,067

    The 'inquiry' may not. But can you guarantee there will not be leaks, given the vast scope of the data and the *very* political nature?
    So there mere possibility of leaks means sensitive information cannot be provided in confidence to the Chairman and key officials?

    That does not seem a proportionate response - it again begs the question that if that is the only way to protect that information, then there really is no point to such inquiries where overlapping information is nigh on inevitable.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,496

    Again I say, is that Boris fault? You have to blame the scientists for being too slow to influence.
    Like saying "Don't stick your hand in the furnace - it's dangerous.".

    "I've stuck my hand in the furnace - now it's all burned. This is your fault."?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,800
    ping said:

    He shouldn’t be putting himself through this. It’s not right. He clearly feels the need to prove the doubters wrong by risking himself.

    It’s excruciating to watch.

    Don’t fall into the same trap, bigG.

    Take care of yourself. Falls are a big risk for everyone, once we’re in our 70’s+.

    Sorry if I’m being a bit personal, there. I’m aware of the risk, particularly, due to an elderly relative.
    You are so kind, but I have had the odd tumble not least falling into a large bush in our garden which gently lowered me into its core leaving just the soles of my shoes on the path. My wife panicked but when she saw me emerge with lots of leaves here, there and everywhere but no blood she collapsed laughing

    To be fair I have recently fitted staircase handrails for both of us and when you know you are susceptible to a fall, you do take more care
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,067

    Biden falls over at USAF graduation ceremony

    He is fine apparently

    Oh gods, Biden just live long enough and with sufficient marbles and physical capacity to defeat Trump in 2024 will you?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,497

    They're not asking WhatsApp for the messages; they're asking Boris for the messages.
    I was referring to people saying they can just demand the messages from whatsapp
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,859
    kle4 said:

    Oh gods, Biden just live long enough and with sufficient marbles and physical capacity to defeat Trump in 2024 will you?
    At the moment it's Biden vs. Gravity that's more concerning.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,968
    Taz said:

    Demand for manufactured product is weakening globally. It is not just in the UK. Yes, where I work we are feeling it and we have just allowed people to apply for severance, not terming it redundancy, on signing a compromise agreement. We have had quite a take up in manufacturing. Our forward order book for the second half of the year, compared to last year, shows a marked decline.

    One of the main reasons we are being told by marketing and sales is our customers simply overstocked when COVID came along and maintained those stock levels during extended lead times. Lead times are back to normal so stock is being run down.

    We expect an upturn in the new Year.
    I know what you are saying. I look in my purse before going to Waitrose and there’s not much in there. I open the cupboard and have 8 tins of beans, so I don’t need to buy tins of beans today.

    On what grounds expecting the upturn in new year, not much before or much later?
  • WestieWestie Posts: 426
    edited June 2023
    Pagan2 said:

    Whatsapp dont have the encryption keys hence the name end to end encryption. They cannot decrypt the messages
    If only In-Q-Tel had had more foresight. I told the CIA to be careful.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,274

    Replied to wrong message
    You need to be careful about falls. I had one about a year ago and I’ve hardly walked properly or unaided since.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,497

    Surely it's as simple as creating an unencrypted backup and handing over the resulting file?
    Oh like you?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,067

    That’s actually a really good example of why government communications should be privileged.

    They need to be able to suggest the really stupid ideas and to debate and analyse all options without it being leaked that the “government considered doing X”
    I dont have any problem with them being able to do that with relative confidence. But if you are undertaking a public inquiry things that normally wouldn't be accessible (at least not so soon) will become so, that's inevitable.

    The issue is the balancing of what the inquiry needs to know in order to meaningfully do the job it was set up for. If that job is pretty broad, you simply cannot have people with a very strong vested interest deciding what it should get to see about those communications without undermining its purpose.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,216
    Pagan2 said:

    I am too poor to be able to afford a keyboard with apostrophes
    13 years of Tory misrule!
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,496
    Nigelb said:

    Reassuring…

    The US Air Force tested an AI enabled drone that was tasked to destroy specific targets. A human operator had the power to override the drone—and so the drone decided that the human operator was an obstacle to its mission—and attacked him.
    https://twitter.com/ArmandDoma/status/1664331870564147200

    Yeah - but if gave me a fairly decent recipe for stuffed peppers earlier today. Swings and roundabouts...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,849
    Westie said:

    If only In-Q-Tel had had more foresight. I told the CIA to be careful.
    Seriously, you must be living in cloud cuckoo land.

    Or he might just understand encryption better than you.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,859
    ohnotnow said:

    Yeah - but if gave me a fairly decent recipe for stuffed peppers earlier today. Swings and roundabouts...
    The drone? Skynet is a foodie?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,968
    edited June 2023
    ohnotnow said:

    Like saying "Don't stick your hand in the furnace - it's dangerous.".

    "I've stuck my hand in the furnace - now it's all burned. This is your fault."?
    Just like that - but being told don’t put your hand in furnace before you do is the important bit when it goes to court or the enquiry. I’m accusing you of making assumptions how Boris was quickly briefed by the scientists. They are the subject matter experts. If politicians locked down too late, or for too long, you are apportioning blame without any knowledge of the expert briefings, are you not?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,497
    Westie said:

    If only In-Q-Tel had had more foresight. I told the CIA to be careful.
    Seriously, you must be living in cloud cuckoo land.

    You do realise that knowledgeble people have been over the code from places like signal etc specifically looking for backdoors. Would the NSA love them sure....doesnt mean they are there however. Why do you think many governements are trying to make end to end encryption illegal?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,288
    kle4 said:

    Oh gods, Biden just live long enough and with sufficient marbles and physical capacity to defeat Trump in 2024 will you?
    He’s just sandbagging.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,609

    You do realise that you make this sound like a political witch-hunt, rather than an unbiased attempt to get at the truth?
    But you want to suppress the truth in case your boys are implicated in something unseemly. This doesn't look like a point of principle it looks like the Cabinet Office are hiding something they don't want the inquiry to see. Now that may be as far from the truth as one could get, but Case and Sunak are looking shifty, like they are withholding the truth. Why would they choose to do that?

    If there is nothing to see, great.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,927
    edited June 2023
    Latest Spanish opinion poll puts centre-right and far/nationalist-right on 51% of the vote.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_Spanish_general_election
  • Pagan2 said:

    I was referring to people saying they can just demand the messages from whatsapp
    But nobody here was saying that. You made the claim that it wasn't possible for WhatsApp messages to be handled over, and I pointed out that this was clearly incorrect. Yes, they can be handled over by the recipient, but (as you correctly state) they can't be intercepted or demanded from WhatsApp.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,364
    kle4 said:

    I dont have any problem with them being able to do that with relative confidence. But if you are undertaking a public inquiry things that normally wouldn't be accessible (at least not so soon) will become so, that's inevitable.

    The issue is the balancing of what the inquiry needs to know in order to meaningfully do the job it was set up for. If that job is pretty broad, you simply cannot have people with a very strong vested interest deciding what it should get to see about those communications without undermining its purpose.
    Share it on an in camera basis
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,288
    ohnotnow said:

    Yeah - but if gave me a fairly decent recipe for stuffed peppers earlier today. Swings and roundabouts...
    So long as you get to taste it before being taken out.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,800

    You need to be careful about falls. I had one about a year ago and I’ve hardly walked properly or unaided since.
    Yes I know you have and so sorry it had the outcome you have experienced

    And yes, you are correct and I am very careful

    Indeed a few years ago I had a very sore knee and the physio who resolved it for me did caution me to be careful as my balance was not as good as hoped
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,497
    edited June 2023

    But nobody here was saying that. You made the claim that it wasn't possible for WhatsApp messages to be handled over, and I pointed out that this was clearly incorrect. Yes, they can be handled over by the recipient, but (as you correctly state) they can't be intercepted or demanded from WhatsApp.
    Mexican pete said "otherwise the police could demand them via court order from the platform directly."

    I replied whatsapp couldnt reply

    you then said they could just supply an ecrypted back up....will come back and edit with the post time

    7.45 was the post time. The post I replied to and which you responded about them just making an unecrypted backup
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,274

    Yes I know you have and so sorry it had the outcome you have experienced

    And yes, you are correct and I am very careful

    Indeed a few years ago I had a very sore knee and the physio who resolved it for me did caution me to be careful as my balance was not as good as hoped
    Thank you!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,888
    Pagan2 said:

    You do realise that knowledgeble people have been over the code from places like signal etc specifically looking for backdoors. Would the NSA love them sure....doesnt mean they are there however. Why do you think many governements are trying to make end to end encryption illegal?
    That's true. But Spectre and the like shows that there can be *very* innovative and interesting backdoors into systems - and not all are software.

    I'm not saying that's happening - but wanting to ban encryption is both a good back-up, and also a good smokescreen. It is also utterly impossible.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,204

    Share it on an in camera basis
    These things should be on an in CAMRA basis. Handled over a pint.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,496

    Just like that - but being told don’t put your hand in furnace before you do is the important bit when it goes to court or the enquiry. I’m accusing you of making assumptions how Boris was quickly briefed by the scientists. They are the subject matter experts. If politicians locked down too late, or for too long, you are apportioning blame without any knowledge of the expert briefings, are you not?
    I was just making a light-hearted joke while I passed by to do the dinner dishes. Sorry for upsetting you.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,968
    Pagan2 said:

    Seems more an argument that all governement business be over government networks where all communication can be stored and retrieved. No this does not mean building a new system. Plenty of systems already available they could use for email and whats app alike stuff which would allow message archiving.

    Anyone using channels of electronic communication for government business outside that make it mandatory 20 years in prison
    That would prevent reappointing Leaky Sue to Home Secretary just a week later?

    Anyway, you can copy and paste. I’ll give you this one, and you can just copy and paste it whenever you need it ‘
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,067

    These things should be on an in CAMRA basis. Handled over a pint.
    More secure than some government communications.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,539

    That’s actually a really good example of why government communications should be privileged.

    They need to be able to suggest the really stupid ideas and to debate and analyse all options without it being leaked that the “government considered doing X”
    Stupid ideas? This is a pandemic which is set to massacre people in their millions. Is already doing heinous things in Italy. And Bonzo wanted to be injected with it live on telly to show everyone it wasn't that big a deal?

    Lets keep going with the scenario. "Erm look I've just been given Covid. Crumbs! But that means you don't need to worry, so ignore all these foreign johnnies locking down and keep going to work and visiting Peppa Pig World"

    That isn't stupid. Its psychotic.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,787
    Nigelb said:

    Reassuring…

    The US Air Force tested an AI enabled drone that was tasked to destroy specific targets. A human operator had the power to override the drone—and so the drone decided that the human operator was an obstacle to its mission—and attacked him.
    https://twitter.com/ArmandDoma/status/1664331870564147200

    Smells a bit apocryphal and as the tweet indicates the anecdote refers to a simulation. However, not actually surprising: naval fleet simulations in the 80's had ships killing their own damaged ships to speed up movements.

    Plus, y'know, the whole Skynet thing :open_mouth:
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,968
    ohnotnow said:

    I was just making a light-hearted joke while I passed by to do the dinner dishes. Sorry for upsetting you.
    Don’t put your hand into boiling water.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,255
    Westie said:

    If only In-Q-Tel had had more foresight. I told the CIA to be careful.
    Seriously, you must be living in cloud cuckoo land.

    If you think the Signal protocol is broken you could very easily get an award from a top security, cryptography, or computer science conference, and any reputable journal will publish your paper with delight.

    But put kudos aside, you could get very rich from such knowledge! That knowledge would easily sell for tens of millions of dollars or higher. People get millions for far less widely applicable vulnerabilities. A break of Signal would be worth a fortune, the NSA has sunk literally billions into huge cryptographic attacks, they'd cut a mighty big check for whacking WhatsApp. Careful if you try to sell it to the Russians or Chinese, they'll probably just disappear you.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,067

    But you want to suppress the truth in case your boys are implicated in something unseemly. This doesn't look like a point of principle it looks like the Cabinet Office are hiding something they don't want the inquiry to see. Now that may be as far from the truth as one could get, but Case and Sunak are looking shifty, like they are withholding the truth. Why would they choose to do that?

    If there is nothing to see, great.
    Fundamentally that is the problem here - they may be totally on the up and up and the inquiry as a whole should not see it. But they, the holders of the information, cannot be the ones to impartially judge if that is so, however much integrity they may have.

    It is a variant of the old 'justice must be done and seen to be done' line - they have to provide all relevant material, and be seen to provide it. Not just say 'That's all of it, guv, we swear'.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,497

    That's true. But Spectre and the like shows that there can be *very* innovative and interesting backdoors into systems - and not all are software.

    I'm not saying that's happening - but wanting to ban encryption is both a good back-up, and also a good smokescreen. It is also utterly impossible.
    Tell that to the eu who are currently wanting to
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,364

    Stupid ideas? This is a pandemic which is set to massacre people in their millions. Is already doing heinous things in Italy. And Bonzo wanted to be injected with it live on telly to show everyone it wasn't that big a deal?

    Lets keep going with the scenario. "Erm look I've just been given Covid. Crumbs! But that means you don't need to worry, so ignore all these foreign johnnies locking down and keep going to work and visiting Peppa Pig World"

    That isn't stupid. Its psychotic.
    Sure. But you don’t want people holding back because they are worried about what a future inquiry will say
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,204

    Stupid ideas? This is a pandemic which is set to massacre people in their millions. Is already doing heinous things in Italy. And Bonzo wanted to be injected with it live on telly to show everyone it wasn't that big a deal?

    Lets keep going with the scenario. "Erm look I've just been given Covid. Crumbs! But that means you don't need to worry, so ignore all these foreign johnnies locking down and keep going to work and visiting Peppa Pig World"

    That isn't stupid. Its psychotic.
    Do you never hear any piece of information without it triggering a hysterical narrative about how everyone involved is an idiot?

    Initially the WHO were playing it down and arguing against imposing restrictions. In that context it's easy to see how the suggestion might come about as a way to reassure people, à la John Gummer.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,079

    That’s actually a really good example of why government communications should be privileged.

    They need to be able to suggest the really stupid ideas and to debate and analyse all options without it being leaked that the “government considered doing X”
    But that specific claim is already out there, thanks to everyone's favourite career sociopath. Nothing to do with the enquiry. The horse has already bolted and found a distant field full of juicy grass to eat.

    Given that the claim is already public, and has been for about two years, how can the enquiry not investigate it? If we don't trust judicial enquiries to handle information with the appropriate care, we have an even bigger problem to solve. (Note that there are other ways the BoJo questions could have got into the public domain which are way more likely than Baroness Hallett dropping them off in the vicinity of a Times hack.)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,888

    But you want to suppress the truth in case your boys are implicated in something unseemly. This doesn't look like a point of principle it looks like the Cabinet Office are hiding something they don't want the inquiry to see. Now that may be as far from the truth as one could get, but Case and Sunak are looking shifty, like they are withholding the truth. Why would they choose to do that?

    If there is nothing to see, great.
    "your boys" ?

    It's a shame I have to repeat this - I am not a Tory. I am likely to vote Labour at the next election (or Lib Dem). Not Tory. For the reasons I've given in the past.

    Aside from that, well done.

    Perhaps, just perhaps, I have views that differ from yours for good reasons that are not party-political? By all means disagree with them, but don't use such pathetically shallow thinking.

    Here's a question for a starter: in a hypothetical situation, are there cases where a government should be able to keep information not related to Covid away from the inquiry?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,067

    Sure. But you don’t want people holding back because they are worried about what a future inquiry will say
    That cannot be avoided. You never know what might be the subject of a future inquiry and what might be relevant to that inquiry. If people hold back on that basis then its once again an argument against any inquiries at all.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,221
    From another PB.

    Newsrooms all around Fleet Street have been abuzz with a story this week about an amusing last minute deadline panic at the Daily Mail.

    Late last week, Mail editor Ted Verity came into possession of a bombshell photo showing Boris Johnson, his mother, his sister and little baby Wilf out in the open air at No.10. The Mail wrote up a big front page story about how the photo was PROOF that Boris had done no wrong and that the police are conducting a baseless witch hunt against him.

    It was all laid out, ready to go to press, when one of the hacks looking over it piped up to ask if the four of them shouldn't have been much further apart – given that social distancing rules were in place at the time. Sure enough, the picture they were about to splash across their front page not only proved that Boris Johnson broke the rules he put in place, but that he still doesn't understand them now.

    Because the super secret source of the photo, who thought its publication would fully exonerate Boris, was... Boris.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,457

    These things should be on an in CAMRA basis. Handled over a pint.
    Still there would be someone to wine.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,079
    Foxy said:

    Still there would be someone to wine.
    The whole thing is certainly a rum do.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100
    It is genuinely impressive the extent to which this government has forgotten to do politics. These messages must be spectacularly bad to make this a price worth paying.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,888
    kle4 said:

    So there mere possibility of leaks means sensitive information cannot be provided in confidence to the Chairman and key officials?

    That does not seem a proportionate response - it again begs the question that if that is the only way to protect that information, then there really is no point to such inquiries where overlapping information is nigh on inevitable.
    There already appears to have been at least one leak, from somewhere; a leak that embarrasses one of the witnesses. Which highlights exactly the thing I'm talking about.

    And the 'proportionate response' surely depends on the data that is wanted to be withheld?

    We're talking edge cases here, mixed with security and privacy issues.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,067
    How the other half lives, justice style.

    A Canadian socialite who killed a police chief in Belize with his own gun has reportedly been spared prison time.

    Jasmine Hartin, 34, was handed a £30,000 fine and 300 hours of community service, according to local reports.

    She pleaded guilty in April to the manslaughter of Henry Jemmott on 28 May 2021. He died from a single gunshot wound to the head.

    Hartin is the former partner of Andrew Ashcroft, the son of a prominent UK businessman Lord Michael Ashcroft.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65770626
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,642
    Foxy said:

    Still there would be someone to wine.
    But it would be in the spirit of things
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,457

    The whole thing is certainly a rum do.
    They haven't the bottle to make it policy.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,079

    From another PB.

    Newsrooms all around Fleet Street have been abuzz with a story this week about an amusing last minute deadline panic at the Daily Mail.

    Late last week, Mail editor Ted Verity came into possession of a bombshell photo showing Boris Johnson, his mother, his sister and little baby Wilf out in the open air at No.10. The Mail wrote up a big front page story about how the photo was PROOF that Boris had done no wrong and that the police are conducting a baseless witch hunt against him.

    It was all laid out, ready to go to press, when one of the hacks looking over it piped up to ask if the four of them shouldn't have been much further apart – given that social distancing rules were in place at the time. Sure enough, the picture they were about to splash across their front page not only proved that Boris Johnson broke the rules he put in place, but that he still doesn't understand them now.

    Because the super secret source of the photo, who thought its publication would fully exonerate Boris, was... Boris.

    Leaving aside the small detail that a photo of people doing the right thing at one moment in time doesn't prove that they did the right thing at all times...

    ...wouldn't it have been brilliant if said hack hadn't been in the room at that moment?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,067
    Jonathan said:

    It is genuinely impressive the extent to which this government has forgotten to do politics. These messages must be spectacularly bad to make this a price worth paying.

    It's actually a lesser remarked symptom of being in government too long, forgetting how to do politics.

    You get angrier and lazier about dealing with opponents and media, you miss obvious traps and scandals, you miss opporunities because you're too busy navel gazing about your latest attempt to refresh things, etc.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,771
    So we have the irresistible force of "The thing about this group is that they turnout at general elections and we should expect them to do the same next time"

    And the immovable object of "don't knows don't vote".

    One position or the other will be able to say "I told you so" without us learning anything about what was actually going on.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,067
    Leon said:

    Well, I confess I had a near-perfect day, after moaning about the weather earlier

    I spent the morning (under the cloud) doing some agreeable work, well paid and satisfying. Then the clouds cleared and I went to see my older daughter (now 17!) in Kenwood and Hampstead. We just faffed about in the gorgeous sun, and realised we had a shared passion for Succession. We discussed the likely future lives of Roman, Shiv, Greg and then discussed deeper things like gender, and season 4 of Parks and Rec

    Then we repaired to the ancient garden of the Spaniard's Inn, possibly the nicest pub in the world, where I drank fine Sancerre and she had a generation-befitting lemonade, then we did it again, and she told me she wants to study Geography at either Falmouth or UCL (as befits her amazing mock A Level results) - which pleasethed me mightily - then I came home and now I am cooking a laksa, and drinking Tesco Finest chat du pape, and all is well with the world, and the future seems quite promising, and more fine weather beckons

    In late middle age, that is probably about as good as it gets?

    Dear Lord, I expect no more. My children are healthy and intelligent, I deeply enjoy my end-stage career, life is quite bonny. Thanks, gov

    And they enjoy the best season of Parks and Rec, so they've clearly got some judgement despite being young people.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,771
    Jonathan said:

    It is genuinely impressive the extent to which this government has forgotten to do politics. These messages must be spectacularly bad to make this a price worth paying.

    My suspicion is that they will turn out to be comparatively trivial and all this has been total obstinacy.
  • WestieWestie Posts: 426
    edited June 2023
    After today's trip up, the US Democrats can't nominate Joe Biden and expect to hold the presidency.
    I've bought Kamala Harris to win USPE2024 at 48.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,609

    "your boys" ?

    It's a shame I have to repeat this - I am not a Tory. I am likely to vote Labour at the next election (or Lib Dem). Not Tory. For the reasons I've given in the past.

    Aside from that, well done.

    Perhaps, just perhaps, I have views that differ from yours for good reasons that are not party-political? By all means disagree with them, but don't use such pathetically shallow thinking.

    Here's a question for a starter: in a hypothetical situation, are there cases where a government should be able to keep information not related to Covid away from the inquiry?
    Of course there are. Sensitive defence information for example. I suspect Hallet would accept such justification, but if these memos are being sent via WhatsApp rather than secure governmental channels I would be surprised.

    I am not being remotely partisan. I would expect no less rigour demanded of any other stripe of government. It is true I trust Johnson about as far as I could throw the building I am currently sitting inside, I would demand at least as much rigour when Johnson is involved as anyone else.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,067

    There already appears to have been at least one leak, from somewhere; a leak that embarrasses one of the witnesses. Which highlights exactly the thing I'm talking about.

    And the 'proportionate response' surely depends on the data that is wanted to be withheld?

    We're talking edge cases here, mixed with security and privacy issues.
    Edge cases is the point - your position,intentionally or not, is ultimately is that the government gets to unilaterally withhold anything it likes and people have to accept it is not relevant material, on the mere possibility of a leak of that information from those edge cases. They don't think anyone else can assess whether withholding is a proportionate response, which means they have unfettered discretion.

    And unfettered discretion is always abused or misused.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,562

    That's a brilliant soundbite.

    What if the data also includes (say) matters of national security irrelevant to Covid?
    It's more than a soundbite. It's the reality of how good investigations work and have to work.

    Judges are well used to dealing with issues of national security in court hearings. If information is truly irrelevant then it will not need to be referred to or released.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,457
    mwadams said:

    My suspicion is that they will turn out to be comparatively trivial and all this has been total obstinacy.
    I think that most likely. It is a spectacular own goal by Sunak.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,941
    Has

    Do you never hear any piece of information without it triggering a hysterical narrative about how everyone involved is an idiot?

    Initially the WHO were playing it down and arguing against imposing restrictions. In that context it's easy to see how the suggestion might come about as a way to reassure people, à la John Gummer.
    Didn't Elvis publicly take the polio vaccine on TV so as to reassure da youf of those days?

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,067
    kle4 said:

    How the other half lives, justice style.

    A Canadian socialite who killed a police chief in Belize with his own gun has reportedly been spared prison time.

    Jasmine Hartin, 34, was handed a £30,000 fine and 300 hours of community service, according to local reports.

    She pleaded guilty in April to the manslaughter of Henry Jemmott on 28 May 2021. He died from a single gunshot wound to the head.

    Hartin is the former partner of Andrew Ashcroft, the son of a prominent UK businessman Lord Michael Ashcroft.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65770626

    I bet she never ends up doing that community service either, or gets something ridiculous to count towards it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,970
    On a sunny day, the Spaniard's Inn is literally - I submit - the greatest pub in the world. It has the history, the location, the garden (and also excellent gastropub food)

    I CHALLENGE PB TO COME UP WITH OTHER CONTENDERS
  • WestieWestie Posts: 426
    edited June 2023

    That's a brilliant soundbite.

    What if the data also includes (say) matters of national security irrelevant to Covid?
    There's been no indication that the government will submit anything of the kind.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,609
    Westie said:

    After today's trip up, the US Democrats can't nominate Joe Biden and expect to hold the presidency.
    I've bought Kamala Harris to win USPE2024 at 48.

    It isn't a good look, but let's remember Trump required Theresa May to hold his hand whilst climbing a shallow stairs.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,457
    kle4 said:

    I bet she never ends up doing that community service either, or gets something ridiculous to count towards it.
    To be fair, from the story in the BBC it sounds a genuine accident when drinking and handling firearms.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,067

    It isn't a good look, but let's remember Trump required Theresa May to hold his hand whilst climbing a shallow stairs.
    It's probably nothing, he is not in bad physical shape for 80, but let't not kid ourselves plenty are worried about his state, especially since at that age people can devolve quickly, so it plays so much worse than if DeSantis slipped and fell on his arse. Every little stumble will be portrayed as a sign of the end.

    If Trump is permitted to run I'm far from confident he doesn't win.
This discussion has been closed.