The LAB lead is very steady across the range of pollsters – politicalbetting.com

System

The LAB lead is very steady across the range of pollsters – politicalbetting.com

The big number to remember when looking at the polls is that the Curtice projection for LAB to secure a majority is a 7% poll vote over the Tories.

Read the full story here

Roger

I've just checked out Dale Vince.

Sounds like a really decent human being.

No wonder Dacre doesn't like him

stodge

The YouGov numbers are far from desperate for the Conservatives.

The 2019 Conservative vote is splitting 45% Conservative, 21% Don't Know ,11% Labour and 9% Reform. That 21% DK represents 9% of the total electorate so get most of those back and the Conservative VI is back into the low 30s. That's a big IF as @MoonRabbit might say.

Among the 65+ age group (excluding the DKs), the Conservatives lead 50-23 with Reform on 12. In 2019, this age group split 64-17 so that's only a 10% swing to Labour in the largest Conservative-voting group.

In England, the split is 45-26-12 with Reform on 8 and Green on 7. That equates to a 16% swing in England from Conservative to Labour. That would mean over 200 Conservative MPs losing their seats before we even consider tactical voting.

The hope for the Conservatives must be to try to claw the DKs back into the loyal camp but the gap (especially in England) remains large for all the older voters seem to be moving back slowly into the Conservative camp but among the largest age group (the 25-49 year olds), Labour enjoys a massive lead.

HYUFD

Starmer certainly needs at least most seats, he certainly doesn't want to rely on the SNP if the Tories win most seats in a hung parliament (but not enough for a majority even with the DUP) with the Nationalists pushing for indyref2.

Ideally he wants a small Labour majority too as if he is reliant on LD support to govern as Cameron was in 2010 this time they will demand a higher price, probably at least PR and the UK returns to the EEA with free movement.

It may well be Welsh Labour MPs and gains from the SNP in Scotland give him that majority even if England doesn't. Of course on many current polls he is heading for a close to 1997 Labour landslide but Sunak does better than his party as preferred PM and the debates could boost him too, as could falling inflation longer term

williamglenn

Starmer's message on staying out of the SM/CU must be resonating.

Heathener

I wonder how many other pb'ers regularly use buses? I was on a couple today, and they're great for litmus tests of public mood.

The die is cast. People have made up their minds and the polls will change very little right up until next year's General Election.

Have a nice evening.

xx

HYUFD

stodge said:

The YouGov numbers are far from desperate for the Conservatives.

The 2019 Conservative vote is splitting 45% Conservative, 21% Don't Know ,11% Labour and 9% Reform. That 21% DK represents 9% of the total electorate so get most of those back and the Conservative VI is back into the low 30s. That's a big IF as @MoonRabbit might say.

Among the 65+ age group (excluding the DKs), the Conservatives lead 50-23 with Reform on 12. In 2019, this age group split 64-17 so that's only a 10% swing to Labour in the largest Conservative-voting group.

In England, the split is 45-26-12 with Reform on 8 and Green on 7. That equates to a 16% swing in England from Conservative to Labour. That would mean over 200 Conservative MPs losing their seats before we even consider tactical voting.

The hope for the Conservatives must be to try to claw the DKs back into the loyal camp but the gap (especially in England) remains large for all the older voters seem to be moving back slowly into the Conservative camp but among the largest age group (the 25-49 year olds), Labour enjoys a massive lead.

Add the Reform total to the Tory total and you get to 34% in England even with zero swingback from Labour, matching Sunak's rating as preferred PM. A 5th of 2019 Tories DKs to squeeze too

williamglenn

Heathener said:

I wonder how many other pb'ers regularly use buses? I was on a couple today, and they're great for litmus tests of public mood.

The die is cast. People have made up their minds and the polls will change very little right up until next year's General Election.

Have a nice evening.

xx

This anecdote is only valid if you were in Clapham.

TheScreamingEagles

SKS fans please explain.

rcs1000

FPT, but I'm "like farming", so I thought I'd post it again:

DavidL said:

HYUFD said:

MoonRabbit said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

BREAKING: Boris Johnson’s spokesperson says all of the former PM’s WhatsApps and notebooks requested by Covid Inquiry have been handed to Cabinet Office in full.

Now up to Cabinet Office to hand them over to Inquiry or not. Johnson urges them to do so. Deadline 4pm tomorrow.

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1663934293498908672

From a political betting view point, Primeminister Wallace or Mourdant might be close now.

Sunak might be toast. He is already in a very weak position. With Tories on 28% and slaughtered in the locals - Sunak’s WhatsAppGate could be about to finish him. The second Tory PM this parliament brought down by covid.

A worry for Labour as they clearly have Sunak beaten, sub 200 Tory seats even. But PM Penny might trump Labour appeals for a fresh change.

Penny will come across as more centre ground to voters than the increasingly right wing Starmer front bench.

Sunak actually polls better than his party, especially with under 50s and urban professionals.

Mordaunt is too woke for the party membership as leader.

I doubt the whatsapp messages will make the slightest difference to Sunak's position, indeed Tory and RefUK voters think we locked down too early and too long if anything

With the benefit of hindsight, which I fully accept was not available at the time and the risks were very difficult to calculate, I think it is far from clear that we should ever have locked down at all. Protected vulnerable groups, certainly. Ensured proper protection for medical and care staff beyond doubt. But closing schools, factories, pubs, restaurants, etc. I think it was a mistake now.

The problem is, of course, that we didn't have the benefit of hindsight. We had terrible scenes coming out of Northern Italy and New York. We had stories of ambulances running through the night.

And we knew very little of successful treatment methods, and had little idea when - or even if - a vaccine would be forthcoming.

I don't blame the government for the initial lockdown.

I do blame them for the severity of the restrictions, and the length of time they went on for, despite all the evidence that we were getting on top of the disease. It is an absolute disgrace that, even though we had a fantastic headstart with the vaccine roll out, that we lagged so many of our European peers for the removal of restrictions.

rcs1000

Heathener said:

I wonder how many other pb'ers regularly use buses? I was on a couple today, and they're great for litmus tests of public mood.

The die is cast. People have made up their minds and the polls will change very little right up until next year's General Election.

Have a nice evening.

xx

I love buses and public transport.

Farooq

A decent opposition would have no variation at all in their lead

GIN1138

Steady as she goes for Lab...

GIN1138

Heathener said:

I wonder how many other pb'ers regularly use buses? I was on a couple today, and they're great for litmus tests of public mood.

The die is cast. People have made up their minds and the polls will change very little right up until next year's General Election.

Have a nice evening.

xx

Or they may have all been telling you what you want to hear because they didn't want to get into a row with someone over politics at 8:10 in the morning...

viewcode

Heathener said:

I wonder how many other pb'ers regularly use buses?

If not WFH, about three times a month. I don't listen to what the passengers say.

viewcode

rcs1000 said:

Heathener said:

I wonder how many other pb'ers regularly use buses? I was on a couple today, and they're great for litmus tests of public mood.

The die is cast. People have made up their minds and the polls will change very little right up until next year's General Election.

Have a nice evening.

xx

I love buses and public transport.

Other opinions are available

Farooq

HYUFD said:

Starmer certainly needs at least most seats, he certainly doesn't want to rely on the SNP if the Tories win most seats in a hung parliament (but not enough for a majority even with the DUP) with the Nationalists pushing for indyref2.

Ideally he wants a small Labour majority too as if he is reliant on LD support to govern as Cameron was in 2010 this time they will demand a higher price, probably at least PR and the UK returns to the EEA with free movement.

It may well be Welsh Labour MPs and gains from the SNP in Scotland give him that majority even if England doesn't. Of course on many current polls he is heading for a close to 1997 Labour landslide but Sunak does better than his party as preferred PM and the debates could boost him too, as could falling inflation longer term

Given Sunak's slippery performance yesterday I wouldn't assume any debate would favour him.

Mexicanpete

Heathener said:

I wonder how many other pb'ers regularly use buses? I was on a couple today, and they're great for litmus tests of public mood.

The die is cast. People have made up their minds and the polls will change very little right up until next year's General Election.

Have a nice evening.

xx

Do bus riders vote these days?

dixiedean

Heathener said:

I wonder how many other pb'ers regularly use buses? I was on a couple today, and they're great for litmus tests of public mood.

The die is cast. People have made up their minds and the polls will change very little right up until next year's General Election.

Have a nice evening.

xx

I do.
Yet another passenger discovered today she'd been paying for an £8.60 day ticket when all single journeys are capped at £2, and have been since January.
Have not seen a single notice on a bus about this.
If even regular bus users don't know (and I've met a fair few), how will anyone else find out? Have heard plenty others express astonishment at how cheap it is to get into Toon now, when asked for 2 quid.
This government is utterly useless at trumpeting the positive things it is doing.

Farooq

Heathener said:

I wonder how many other pb'ers regularly use buses? I was on a couple today, and they're great for litmus tests of public mood.

The die is cast. People have made up their minds and the polls will change very little right up until next year's General Election.

Have a nice evening.

xx

You're essentially predicting no events for the next year. Which is... brave.

Northern_Al

Heathener said:

I wonder how many other pb'ers regularly use buses? I was on a couple today, and they're great for litmus tests of public mood.

The die is cast. People have made up their minds and the polls will change very little right up until next year's General Election.

Have a nice evening.

xx

Me. I use buses all the time. For two hours today.
Never heard anybody mention politics, though - but then my hearing isn't great, so maybe I'm missing the anti-Tory public mood. Despite that, I agree - I suspect the die is cast.

MoonRabbit

TheScreamingEagles said:

Mexicanpete said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Mexicanpete said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sorry @dixiedean but I think this means Everton are fucked, even more so than if you were relegated.

The Treasury’s sanctions police have been reviewing the finances of the Everton Football Club owner, Farhad Moshiri, the Guardian understands.

Moshiri appears to have become a person of interest to the Office of Financial Sanctions Implementation (OFSI) because of his links to Alisher Usmanov, the Russian-Uzbek billionaire who was sanctioned by the UK, the EU and the US after last year’s invasion of Ukraine.

Usmanov has also been barred from entering the UK since September 2021 after his presence was “not deemed conducive to the public good”.

The apparent interest in Moshiri coincides with months of reporting by the Guardian, which has raised questions about the influence Usmanov has exerted over Moshiri and the Premier League club, including how the Russian tycoon came to attend job interviews with a series of prospective Everton managers before March 2022.

It also follows a Guardian report that revealed how the club’s auditor, BDO, stepped away from signing off the club’s accounts last year – a decision sources said was related to the ownership of the Premier League team.

The Guardian understands that BDO’s concerns led to OFSI being notified about Moshiri, who has hired an expert sanctions lawyer at Peters & Peters – one of the UK’s largest law firms – according to correspondence sent to the Guardian on Moshiri’s behalf.

The news of OFSI’s apparent interest in Moshiri’s finances has emerged as the football team narrowly avoided relegation from the Premier League and while Moshiri is attempting to find investment to bankroll the club and complete its new stadium.

It is understood that an investment offer on the table would result in Moshiri – who is estimated to have ploughed £750m into Everton – losing control of the club without being paid a penny, according to sources close to the negotiations.

Any lack of payment to Moshiri could raise questions about whether Everton is being treated in a similar manner to Chelsea FC when it was acquired from the sanctioned oligarch Roman Abramovich last year. Abramovich was prevented by the UK government from benefiting financially from the sale of the London club...

...However, the Guardian understands that Moshiri’s UK bank closed his account last year, seemingly because of his connections to Usmanov.

Moshiri declined to comment on OFSI’s apparent interest in his finances or the status of his UK bank account. The Treasury said that neither it nor OFSI commented on individual cases.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/may/31/treasurys-sanctions-police-reviewing-finances-of-everton-fc-owner-guardian-understands

Wow, and I thought the Baggies would be the first historically big club to fully implode. It seems Everton might beat us to it. A toffee anyone?

As someone who deals with OFSI on a regular basis this is the fact that has my eyebrows in orbit.

However, the Guardian understands that Moshiri’s UK bank closed his account last year, seemingly because of his connections to Usmanov.

At least Moshiri hasn't helped himself to a shed load of loans against the value of the club payments of which are overdue.

Everton should at least be saleable.

The thing is Everton have huge debts.

Possible points deduction/transfer embargo.

Also a stadium to finance.

Their cool new stadium, floating on the front, is going to be fantastic though, you do concede that?

Farooq

MoonRabbit said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Mexicanpete said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Mexicanpete said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sorry @dixiedean but I think this means Everton are fucked, even more so than if you were relegated.

The Treasury’s sanctions police have been reviewing the finances of the Everton Football Club owner, Farhad Moshiri, the Guardian understands.

Moshiri appears to have become a person of interest to the Office of Financial Sanctions Implementation (OFSI) because of his links to Alisher Usmanov, the Russian-Uzbek billionaire who was sanctioned by the UK, the EU and the US after last year’s invasion of Ukraine.

Usmanov has also been barred from entering the UK since September 2021 after his presence was “not deemed conducive to the public good”.

The apparent interest in Moshiri coincides with months of reporting by the Guardian, which has raised questions about the influence Usmanov has exerted over Moshiri and the Premier League club, including how the Russian tycoon came to attend job interviews with a series of prospective Everton managers before March 2022.

It also follows a Guardian report that revealed how the club’s auditor, BDO, stepped away from signing off the club’s accounts last year – a decision sources said was related to the ownership of the Premier League team.

The Guardian understands that BDO’s concerns led to OFSI being notified about Moshiri, who has hired an expert sanctions lawyer at Peters & Peters – one of the UK’s largest law firms – according to correspondence sent to the Guardian on Moshiri’s behalf.

The news of OFSI’s apparent interest in Moshiri’s finances has emerged as the football team narrowly avoided relegation from the Premier League and while Moshiri is attempting to find investment to bankroll the club and complete its new stadium.

It is understood that an investment offer on the table would result in Moshiri – who is estimated to have ploughed £750m into Everton – losing control of the club without being paid a penny, according to sources close to the negotiations.

Any lack of payment to Moshiri could raise questions about whether Everton is being treated in a similar manner to Chelsea FC when it was acquired from the sanctioned oligarch Roman Abramovich last year. Abramovich was prevented by the UK government from benefiting financially from the sale of the London club...

...However, the Guardian understands that Moshiri’s UK bank closed his account last year, seemingly because of his connections to Usmanov.

Moshiri declined to comment on OFSI’s apparent interest in his finances or the status of his UK bank account. The Treasury said that neither it nor OFSI commented on individual cases.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/may/31/treasurys-sanctions-police-reviewing-finances-of-everton-fc-owner-guardian-understands

Wow, and I thought the Baggies would be the first historically big club to fully implode. It seems Everton might beat us to it. A toffee anyone?

As someone who deals with OFSI on a regular basis this is the fact that has my eyebrows in orbit.

However, the Guardian understands that Moshiri’s UK bank closed his account last year, seemingly because of his connections to Usmanov.

At least Moshiri hasn't helped himself to a shed load of loans against the value of the club payments of which are overdue.

Everton should at least be saleable.

The thing is Everton have huge debts.

Possible points deduction/transfer embargo.

Also a stadium to finance.

Their cool new stadium, floating on the front, is going to be fantastic though, you do concede that?

Liverpool could take over it after Everton get wound up. Anfield 2.0

Mexicanpete

viewcode said:

rcs1000 said:

Heathener said:

I wonder how many other pb'ers regularly use buses? I was on a couple today, and they're great for litmus tests of public mood.

The die is cast. People have made up their minds and the polls will change very little right up until next year's General Election.

Have a nice evening.

xx

I love buses and public transport.

Other opinions are available

Albanian cabbies?

TheScreamingEagles

Farooq said:

MoonRabbit said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Mexicanpete said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Mexicanpete said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sorry @dixiedean but I think this means Everton are fucked, even more so than if you were relegated.

The Treasury’s sanctions police have been reviewing the finances of the Everton Football Club owner, Farhad Moshiri, the Guardian understands.

Moshiri appears to have become a person of interest to the Office of Financial Sanctions Implementation (OFSI) because of his links to Alisher Usmanov, the Russian-Uzbek billionaire who was sanctioned by the UK, the EU and the US after last year’s invasion of Ukraine.

Usmanov has also been barred from entering the UK since September 2021 after his presence was “not deemed conducive to the public good”.

The apparent interest in Moshiri coincides with months of reporting by the Guardian, which has raised questions about the influence Usmanov has exerted over Moshiri and the Premier League club, including how the Russian tycoon came to attend job interviews with a series of prospective Everton managers before March 2022.

It also follows a Guardian report that revealed how the club’s auditor, BDO, stepped away from signing off the club’s accounts last year – a decision sources said was related to the ownership of the Premier League team.

The Guardian understands that BDO’s concerns led to OFSI being notified about Moshiri, who has hired an expert sanctions lawyer at Peters & Peters – one of the UK’s largest law firms – according to correspondence sent to the Guardian on Moshiri’s behalf.

The news of OFSI’s apparent interest in Moshiri’s finances has emerged as the football team narrowly avoided relegation from the Premier League and while Moshiri is attempting to find investment to bankroll the club and complete its new stadium.

It is understood that an investment offer on the table would result in Moshiri – who is estimated to have ploughed £750m into Everton – losing control of the club without being paid a penny, according to sources close to the negotiations.

Any lack of payment to Moshiri could raise questions about whether Everton is being treated in a similar manner to Chelsea FC when it was acquired from the sanctioned oligarch Roman Abramovich last year. Abramovich was prevented by the UK government from benefiting financially from the sale of the London club...

...However, the Guardian understands that Moshiri’s UK bank closed his account last year, seemingly because of his connections to Usmanov.

Moshiri declined to comment on OFSI’s apparent interest in his finances or the status of his UK bank account. The Treasury said that neither it nor OFSI commented on individual cases.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/may/31/treasurys-sanctions-police-reviewing-finances-of-everton-fc-owner-guardian-understands

Wow, and I thought the Baggies would be the first historically big club to fully implode. It seems Everton might beat us to it. A toffee anyone?

As someone who deals with OFSI on a regular basis this is the fact that has my eyebrows in orbit.

However, the Guardian understands that Moshiri’s UK bank closed his account last year, seemingly because of his connections to Usmanov.

At least Moshiri hasn't helped himself to a shed load of loans against the value of the club payments of which are overdue.

Everton should at least be saleable.

The thing is Everton have huge debts.

Possible points deduction/transfer embargo.

Also a stadium to finance.

Their cool new stadium, floating on the front, is going to be fantastic though, you do concede that?

Liverpool could take over it after Everton get wound up. Anfield 2.0

Nah, we're going to have 61,000 capacity at Anfield at the start of the new season.

We might buy Bramley Moore on the cheap to host youth and women's matches.

williamglenn

rcs1000 said:

FPT, but I'm "like farming", so I thought I'd post it again:

DavidL said:

HYUFD said:

MoonRabbit said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

BREAKING: Boris Johnson’s spokesperson says all of the former PM’s WhatsApps and notebooks requested by Covid Inquiry have been handed to Cabinet Office in full.

Now up to Cabinet Office to hand them over to Inquiry or not. Johnson urges them to do so. Deadline 4pm tomorrow.

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1663934293498908672

From a political betting view point, Primeminister Wallace or Mourdant might be close now.

Sunak might be toast. He is already in a very weak position. With Tories on 28% and slaughtered in the locals - Sunak’s WhatsAppGate could be about to finish him. The second Tory PM this parliament brought down by covid.

A worry for Labour as they clearly have Sunak beaten, sub 200 Tory seats even. But PM Penny might trump Labour appeals for a fresh change.

Penny will come across as more centre ground to voters than the increasingly right wing Starmer front bench.

Sunak actually polls better than his party, especially with under 50s and urban professionals.

Mordaunt is too woke for the party membership as leader.

I doubt the whatsapp messages will make the slightest difference to Sunak's position, indeed Tory and RefUK voters think we locked down too early and too long if anything

With the benefit of hindsight, which I fully accept was not available at the time and the risks were very difficult to calculate, I think it is far from clear that we should ever have locked down at all. Protected vulnerable groups, certainly. Ensured proper protection for medical and care staff beyond doubt. But closing schools, factories, pubs, restaurants, etc. I think it was a mistake now.

The problem is, of course, that we didn't have the benefit of hindsight. We had terrible scenes coming out of Northern Italy and New York. We had stories of ambulances running through the night.

And we knew very little of successful treatment methods, and had little idea when - or even if - a vaccine would be forthcoming.

I don't blame the government for the initial lockdown.

I do blame them for the severity of the restrictions, and the length of time they went on for, despite all the evidence that we were getting on top of the disease. It is an absolute disgrace that, even though we had a fantastic headstart with the vaccine roll out, that we lagged so many of our European peers for the removal of restrictions.

One of the most inexplicable things was the USA keeping their arbitrary ban on entry from Europe and some other countries throughout the whole pandemic. Would it have been that difficult to update it like every other country?

MoonRabbit

dixiedean said:

Heathener said:

I wonder how many other pb'ers regularly use buses? I was on a couple today, and they're great for litmus tests of public mood.

The die is cast. People have made up their minds and the polls will change very little right up until next year's General Election.

Have a nice evening.

xx

I do.
Yet another passenger discovered today she'd been paying for an £8.60 day ticket when all single journeys are capped at £2, and have been since January.
Have not seen a single notice on a bus about this.
If even regular bus users don't know (and I've met a fair few), how will anyone else find out? Have heard plenty others express astonishment at how cheap it is to get into Toon now, when asked for 2 quid.
This government is utterly useless at trumpeting the positive things it is doing.

I haven’t been on a Pleb Wagon in London for a long time, but needed to use them a lot in Yorkshire growing up. Last time I got on a bus two people in front of me speaking no English got chucked off trying to buy a ticket in cash, so I bought machine tickets for them using my phone.

Sunil_Prasannan

rcs1000 said:

Heathener said:

I wonder how many other pb'ers regularly use buses? I was on a couple today, and they're great for litmus tests of public mood.

The die is cast. People have made up their minds and the polls will change very little right up until next year's General Election.

Have a nice evening.

xx

I love buses and public transport.

Not as much as me

MarqueeMark

Mexicanpete said:

Heathener said:

I wonder how many other pb'ers regularly use buses? I was on a couple today, and they're great for litmus tests of public mood.

The die is cast. People have made up their minds and the polls will change very little right up until next year's General Election.

Have a nice evening.

xx

Do bus riders vote these days?

Not if Rees-Mogg has any say in it....

BlancheLivermore

Heathener said:

I wonder how many other pb'ers regularly use buses? I was on a couple today, and they're great for litmus tests of public mood.

The die is cast. People have made up their minds and the polls will change very little right up until next year's General Election.

Have a nice evening.

xx

I was on two this evening. Both fucking red

MoonRabbit

MoonRabbit said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Mexicanpete said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Mexicanpete said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sorry @dixiedean but I think this means Everton are fucked, even more so than if you were relegated.

The Treasury’s sanctions police have been reviewing the finances of the Everton Football Club owner, Farhad Moshiri, the Guardian understands.

Moshiri appears to have become a person of interest to the Office of Financial Sanctions Implementation (OFSI) because of his links to Alisher Usmanov, the Russian-Uzbek billionaire who was sanctioned by the UK, the EU and the US after last year’s invasion of Ukraine.

Usmanov has also been barred from entering the UK since September 2021 after his presence was “not deemed conducive to the public good”.

The apparent interest in Moshiri coincides with months of reporting by the Guardian, which has raised questions about the influence Usmanov has exerted over Moshiri and the Premier League club, including how the Russian tycoon came to attend job interviews with a series of prospective Everton managers before March 2022.

It also follows a Guardian report that revealed how the club’s auditor, BDO, stepped away from signing off the club’s accounts last year – a decision sources said was related to the ownership of the Premier League team.

The Guardian understands that BDO’s concerns led to OFSI being notified about Moshiri, who has hired an expert sanctions lawyer at Peters & Peters – one of the UK’s largest law firms – according to correspondence sent to the Guardian on Moshiri’s behalf.

The news of OFSI’s apparent interest in Moshiri’s finances has emerged as the football team narrowly avoided relegation from the Premier League and while Moshiri is attempting to find investment to bankroll the club and complete its new stadium.

It is understood that an investment offer on the table would result in Moshiri – who is estimated to have ploughed £750m into Everton – losing control of the club without being paid a penny, according to sources close to the negotiations.

Any lack of payment to Moshiri could raise questions about whether Everton is being treated in a similar manner to Chelsea FC when it was acquired from the sanctioned oligarch Roman Abramovich last year. Abramovich was prevented by the UK government from benefiting financially from the sale of the London club...

...However, the Guardian understands that Moshiri’s UK bank closed his account last year, seemingly because of his connections to Usmanov.

Moshiri declined to comment on OFSI’s apparent interest in his finances or the status of his UK bank account. The Treasury said that neither it nor OFSI commented on individual cases.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/may/31/treasurys-sanctions-police-reviewing-finances-of-everton-fc-owner-guardian-understands

Wow, and I thought the Baggies would be the first historically big club to fully implode. It seems Everton might beat us to it. A toffee anyone?

As someone who deals with OFSI on a regular basis this is the fact that has my eyebrows in orbit.

However, the Guardian understands that Moshiri’s UK bank closed his account last year, seemingly because of his connections to Usmanov.

At least Moshiri hasn't helped himself to a shed load of loans against the value of the club payments of which are overdue.

Everton should at least be saleable.

The thing is Everton have huge debts.

Possible points deduction/transfer embargo.

Also a stadium to finance.

Their cool new stadium, floating on the front, is going to be fantastic though, you do concede that?

I would ask, why someone from Yorkshire supports a side in Lancashire, a team outside of Yorkshire. But truth is, after looking for the York result I look for the Newcastle one.

Do you think Liverpool will finish ahead of Newcastle any season in the next ten years? Unlikely isn’t it.

dixiedean

Help needed.
On this thread I am getting "x mentioned you" notifications in this thread when they haven't at all.
About Everton. Is that possibly because I was tagged in a previous comment on the last thread?
If so, how do I stop it?
It's annoying.

TheScreamingEagles

The voice of the BBC’s Formula One coverage has been sacked from his lead commentary role on Formula E, a sister championship, for alleged inappropriate behaviour, The Times has learnt.

Jack Nicholls’s contract was terminated this month after a complaint prompted an investigation overseen by an independent body.

The inquiry is believed to have uncovered three complainants who claimed to have been touched inappropriately.

One was understood to have been a younger member of staff who was in a relationship with Nicholls, in breach of Formula E rules, while the other two complaints were made by witnesses rather than those affected.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bbc-f1-commentator-jack-nicholls-sacked-formula-e-2023-3bf5rxrw5

MoonRabbit

It looks like Sunak and Hunt will get their recession.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/may/31/uk-and-us-poised-to-fall-into-recession-as-interest-rates-dampen-growth

But the media are so slow on this! It’s not the boe interest rates that will cause UK recession, but Hunt withdrawing so much help this year simultaneously.

That’s exactly what’s happened in Germany.

TheScreamingEagles

dixiedean said:

Help needed.
On this thread I am getting "x mentioned you" notifications in this thread when they haven't at all.
About Everton. Is that possibly because I was tagged in a previous comment on the last thread?
If so, how do I stop it?
It's annoying.

Change the settings here.

https://vf.politicalbetting.com/profile/preferences

MoonRabbit

I’ve got this feeling, all those promises to Ukraine to fast track their NATO and EU membership are going to sound horriblyhollow in 10-15 years time ☹️

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/31/macron-to-call-for-european-strategic-awakening-after-ukraine-invasion

ping

At times interesting, at times tedious podcast from the Irish Times.

“Decoding the culture wars”

Bryan Fanning, on contemporary political sociology and public morality;

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/irish-times-inside-politics/id794389685

Worth a listen, imo.

williamglenn

dixiedean said:

Help needed.
On this thread I am getting "x mentioned you" notifications in this thread when they haven't at all.
About Everton. Is that possibly because I was tagged in a previous comment on the last thread?
If so, how do I stop it?
It's annoying.

You're mentioned at the beginning of this thread, so as long as nobody replies to it, they will stop.

Farooq said:

MoonRabbit said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Mexicanpete said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Mexicanpete said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sorry @ dixiedean but I think this means Everton are fucked, even more so than if you were relegated.

The Treasury’s sanctions police have been reviewing the finances of the Everton Football Club owner, Farhad Moshiri, the Guardian understands.

Moshiri appears to have become a person of interest to the Office of Financial Sanctions Implementation (OFSI) because of his links to Alisher Usmanov, the Russian-Uzbek billionaire who was sanctioned by the UK, the EU and the US after last year’s invasion of Ukraine.

Usmanov has also been barred from entering the UK since September 2021 after his presence was “not deemed conducive to the public good”.

The apparent interest in Moshiri coincides with months of reporting by the Guardian, which has raised questions about the influence Usmanov has exerted over Moshiri and the Premier League club, including how the Russian tycoon came to attend job interviews with a series of prospective Everton managers before March 2022.

It also follows a Guardian report that revealed how the club’s auditor, BDO, stepped away from signing off the club’s accounts last year – a decision sources said was related to the ownership of the Premier League team.

The Guardian understands that BDO’s concerns led to OFSI being notified about Moshiri, who has hired an expert sanctions lawyer at Peters & Peters – one of the UK’s largest law firms – according to correspondence sent to the Guardian on Moshiri’s behalf.

The news of OFSI’s apparent interest in Moshiri’s finances has emerged as the football team narrowly avoided relegation from the Premier League and while Moshiri is attempting to find investment to bankroll the club and complete its new stadium.

It is understood that an investment offer on the table would result in Moshiri – who is estimated to have ploughed £750m into Everton – losing control of the club without being paid a penny, according to sources close to the negotiations.

Any lack of payment to Moshiri could raise questions about whether Everton is being treated in a similar manner to Chelsea FC when it was acquired from the sanctioned oligarch Roman Abramovich last year. Abramovich was prevented by the UK government from benefiting financially from the sale of the London club...

...However, the Guardian understands that Moshiri’s UK bank closed his account last year, seemingly because of his connections to Usmanov.

Moshiri declined to comment on OFSI’s apparent interest in his finances or the status of his UK bank account. The Treasury said that neither it nor OFSI commented on individual cases.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/may/31/treasurys-sanctions-police-reviewing-finances-of-everton-fc-owner-guardian-understands

Wow, and I thought the Baggies would be the first historically big club to fully implode. It seems Everton might beat us to it. A toffee anyone?

As someone who deals with OFSI on a regular basis this is the fact that has my eyebrows in orbit.

However, the Guardian understands that Moshiri’s UK bank closed his account last year, seemingly because of his connections to Usmanov.

At least Moshiri hasn't helped himself to a shed load of loans against the value of the club payments of which are overdue.

Everton should at least be saleable.

The thing is Everton have huge debts.

Possible points deduction/transfer embargo.

Also a stadium to finance.

Their cool new stadium, floating on the front, is going to be fantastic though, you do concede that?

Liverpool could take over it after Everton get wound up. Anfield 2.0

Farooq

MoonRabbit said:

I’ve got this feeling, all those promises to Ukraine to fast track their NATO and EU membership are going to sound horriblyhollow in 10-15 years time ☹️

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/31/macron-to-call-for-european-strategic-awakening-after-ukraine-invasion

Who promised those things?

dixiedean

By contrast with TSE.
This investigation into Moshiri/Usmanov is great news, wonderfully timed.
Anything that hastens the departure of the most incompetent owner in the division has to be good.
Everton, as a Premier League club with a super funky new City centre ground, would be attractive to a billionaire, even with all the debts.
And it couldn't be any worse run.

williamglenn

Farooq said:

MoonRabbit said:

I’ve got this feeling, all those promises to Ukraine to fast track their NATO and EU membership are going to sound horriblyhollow in 10-15 years time ☹️

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/31/macron-to-call-for-european-strategic-awakening-after-ukraine-invasion

Who promised those things?

https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-eu-chief-offers-kyiv-fast-track-to-membership/a-61409635

EU chief offers Kyiv fast track to bloc membership
04/08/2022

European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen and an EU delegation traveled to the Ukrainian capital on the first trip by senior European Commission officials since Russia's invasion started.

Andy_JS

Interesting change since 2005 when Labour won a 66 seat majority with a lead of just 3%.

state_go_away

HYUFD said:

stodge said:

The YouGov numbers are far from desperate for the Conservatives.

The 2019 Conservative vote is splitting 45% Conservative, 21% Don't Know ,11% Labour and 9% Reform. That 21% DK represents 9% of the total electorate so get most of those back and the Conservative VI is back into the low 30s. That's a big IF as @MoonRabbit might say.

Among the 65+ age group (excluding the DKs), the Conservatives lead 50-23 with Reform on 12. In 2019, this age group split 64-17 so that's only a 10% swing to Labour in the largest Conservative-voting group.

In England, the split is 45-26-12 with Reform on 8 and Green on 7. That equates to a 16% swing in England from Conservative to Labour. That would mean over 200 Conservative MPs losing their seats before we even consider tactical voting.

The hope for the Conservatives must be to try to claw the DKs back into the loyal camp but the gap (especially in England) remains large for all the older voters seem to be moving back slowly into the Conservative camp but among the largest age group (the 25-49 year olds), Labour enjoys a massive lead.

Add the Reform total to the Tory total and you get to 34% in England even with zero swingback from Labour, matching Sunak's rating as preferred PM. A 5th of 2019 Tories DKs to squeeze too

trouble is Sunak needs to do something to get people who are going to vote reform (me included) to vote tory- The tories seem to be slither less statist than the other two parties .Given the state collects the highest proportion in tax than ever this is not something i am minded to award with a vote in favour.

DougSeal

ping said:

At times interesting, at times tedious podcast from the Irish Times.

“Decoding the culture wars”

Bryan Fanning, on contemporary political sociology and public morality;

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/irish-times-inside-politics/id794389685

Worth a listen, imo.

The Irish Times is like an even more puritanical version of The Guardian

state_go_away

Farooq said:

MoonRabbit said:

I’ve got this feeling, all those promises to Ukraine to fast track their NATO and EU membership are going to sound horriblyhollow in 10-15 years time ☹️

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/31/macron-to-call-for-european-strategic-awakening-after-ukraine-invasion

Who promised those things?

Ukraine is a pretty corrupt place

pm215

dixiedean said:

Yet another passenger discovered today she'd been paying for an £8.60 day ticket when all single journeys are capped at £2, and have been since January.
Have not seen a single notice on a bus about this.

The ones around here (Cambridge) have an "All single fares 2 pounds or less" on the digital display on the front of the bus (alternating with the bus number/destination, I think).

Farooq

williamglenn said:

Farooq said:

MoonRabbit said:

I’ve got this feeling, all those promises to Ukraine to fast track their NATO and EU membership are going to sound horriblyhollow in 10-15 years time ☹️

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/31/macron-to-call-for-european-strategic-awakening-after-ukraine-invasion

Who promised those things?

https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-eu-chief-offers-kyiv-fast-track-to-membership/a-61409635

EU chief offers Kyiv fast track to bloc membership
04/08/2022

European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen and an EU delegation traveled to the Ukrainian capital on the first trip by senior European Commission officials since Russia's invasion started.

I find the contents of that article very confusing. What is this "questionnaire"? It doesn't seem to me to be a promise to have Ukraine joining the EU any time soon. Merely that the process will be kicked off quickly, right?

In any case, the links to other articles on that same site seem to pour cold water on it. It would be foolish to offer Ukraine membership before it's ready, and it's certainly not ready.

Taz

Heathener said:

I wonder how many other pb'ers regularly use buses? I was on a couple today, and they're great for litmus tests of public mood.

The die is cast. People have made up their minds and the polls will change very little right up until next year's General Election.

Have a nice evening.

xx

Is the mood anger.

Are the people mutinous ?

Is it a (drumroll) shellacking.

Taz

state_go_away said:

Farooq said:

MoonRabbit said:

I’ve got this feeling, all those promises to Ukraine to fast track their NATO and EU membership are going to sound horriblyhollow in 10-15 years time ☹️

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/31/macron-to-call-for-european-strategic-awakening-after-ukraine-invasion

Who promised those things?

Ukraine is a pretty corrupt place

It may be a corrupt place but it is our corrupt place.

Farooq

state_go_away said:

Farooq said:

MoonRabbit said:

I’ve got this feeling, all those promises to Ukraine to fast track their NATO and EU membership are going to sound horriblyhollow in 10-15 years time ☹️

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/31/macron-to-call-for-european-strategic-awakening-after-ukraine-invasion

Who promised those things?

Ukraine is a pretty corrupt place

It's certainly not in a position to meet the accession criteria.
I'm in favour of the EU offering the prospect. Hopefully when this war is over Ukraine can work on its institutions and build a more robust state, with the carrot of EU membership as the reward.

TheScreamingEagles

dixiedean said:

By contrast with TSE.
This investigation into Moshiri/Usmanov is great news, wonderfully timed.
Anything that hastens the departure of the most incompetent owner in the division has to be good.
Everton, as a Premier League club with a super funky new City centre ground, would be attractive to a billionaire, even with all the debts.
And it couldn't be any worse run.

That stadium hasn't been fully financed.

Add in acquisition costs and a first team squad that needs adding to then Everton aren't that attractive, even before a potential points deduction for breaching FPP.

I remember the summer and autumn of 2010 when it looked my club was heading for administration/bankruptcy, I do not want other fans to go through that. It was stressful.

BlancheLivermore

Farooq said:

state_go_away said:

Farooq said:

MoonRabbit said:

I’ve got this feeling, all those promises to Ukraine to fast track their NATO and EU membership are going to sound horriblyhollow in 10-15 years time ☹️

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/31/macron-to-call-for-european-strategic-awakening-after-ukraine-invasion

Who promised those things?

Ukraine is a pretty corrupt place

It's certainly not in a position to meet the accession criteria.
I'm in favour of the EU offering the prospect. Hopefully when this war is over Ukraine can work on its institutions and build a more robust state, with the carrot of EU membership as the reward.

Ukraine needs to stop being a Turkey, EU-wise?

Is Ukraine joining the EU?

Sunil_Prasannan

state_go_away said:

Farooq said:

MoonRabbit said:

I’ve got this feeling, all those promises to Ukraine to fast track their NATO and EU membership are going to sound horriblyhollow in 10-15 years time ☹️

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/31/macron-to-call-for-european-strategic-awakening-after-ukraine-invasion

Who promised those things?

Ukraine is a pretty corrupt place

Would you say it's more corrupt than your Russian friends?

dixiedean

pm215 said:

dixiedean said:

Yet another passenger discovered today she'd been paying for an £8.60 day ticket when all single journeys are capped at £2, and have been since January.
Have not seen a single notice on a bus about this.

The ones around here (Cambridge) have an "All single fares 2 pounds or less" on the digital display on the front of the bus (alternating with the bus number/destination, I think).

Do they? So it's down to the company?
A competent government would have had such a display as a condition of the subsidy.

carnforth

BlancheLivermore said:

Farooq said:

state_go_away said:

Farooq said:

MoonRabbit said:

I’ve got this feeling, all those promises to Ukraine to fast track their NATO and EU membership are going to sound horriblyhollow in 10-15 years time ☹️

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/31/macron-to-call-for-european-strategic-awakening-after-ukraine-invasion

Who promised those things?

Ukraine is a pretty corrupt place

It's certainly not in a position to meet the accession criteria.
I'm in favour of the EU offering the prospect. Hopefully when this war is over Ukraine can work on its institutions and build a more robust state, with the carrot of EU membership as the reward.

Ukraine needs to stop being a Turkey, EU-wise?

Is Ukraine joining the EU?

"Ukraine is joining the EU. Brtiain's new border is with Transnistria!"

Westie

Farooq said:

state_go_away said:

Farooq said:

MoonRabbit said:

I’ve got this feeling, all those promises to Ukraine to fast track their NATO and EU membership are going to sound horriblyhollow in 10-15 years time ☹️

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/31/macron-to-call-for-european-strategic-awakening-after-ukraine-invasion

Who promised those things?

Ukraine is a pretty corrupt place

It's certainly not in a position to meet the accession criteria.
I'm in favour of the EU offering the prospect. Hopefully when this war is over Ukraine can work on its institutions and build a more robust state, with the carrot of EU membership as the reward.

The EU should assess other people's corruptness? Okayyy...
And since when was a state's robustness antithetical to its corruptness?

state_go_away

Sunil_Prasannan said:

state_go_away said:

Farooq said:

MoonRabbit said:

I’ve got this feeling, all those promises to Ukraine to fast track their NATO and EU membership are going to sound horriblyhollow in 10-15 years time ☹️

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/31/macron-to-call-for-european-strategic-awakening-after-ukraine-invasion

Who promised those things?

Ukraine is a pretty corrupt place

Would you say it's more corrupt than your Russian friends?

what?

JosiasJessop

Is there a scientific name for the juice you get out of blisters when you burst them?

CorrectHorseBat

I too think the Tories are finished.

I asked my friends in Putney and they confirmed it. So it's true

Mexicanpete

...

TheScreamingEagles said:

dixiedean said:

By contrast with TSE.
This investigation into Moshiri/Usmanov is great news, wonderfully timed.
Anything that hastens the departure of the most incompetent owner in the division has to be good.
Everton, as a Premier League club with a super funky new City centre ground, would be attractive to a billionaire, even with all the debts.
And it couldn't be any worse run.

That stadium hasn't been fully financed.

Add in acquisition costs and a first team squad that needs adding to then Everton aren't that attractive, even before a potential points deduction for breaching FPP.

I remember the summer and autumn of 2010 when it looked my club was heading for administration/bankruptcy, I do not want other fans to go through that. It was stressful.

The oversight by the football authorities is shocking.

Some foreign based asset stripper comes in with borrowed money. Repays the loan he took out to buy the club and they help themselves to their own yacht and Ferrari loan by mortgaging the club assets. Then when it all caves in the fans get a transfer embargo and a
15 point deduction. The former owner gets to keep the yacht and the fleet of Ferraris.

dixiedean

TheScreamingEagles said:

dixiedean said:

By contrast with TSE.
This investigation into Moshiri/Usmanov is great news, wonderfully timed.
Anything that hastens the departure of the most incompetent owner in the division has to be good.
Everton, as a Premier League club with a super funky new City centre ground, would be attractive to a billionaire, even with all the debts.
And it couldn't be any worse run.

That stadium hasn't been fully financed.

Add in acquisition costs and a first team squad that needs adding to then Everton aren't that attractive, even before a potential points deduction for breaching FPP.

I remember the summer and autumn of 2010 when it looked my club was heading for administration/bankruptcy, I do not want other fans to go through that. It was stressful.

Acquisition costs would be minimal in a forced sale. Playing squad? A great deal of that turns on the fitness of DCL. With him we're mid table. Particularly with Dyche, the defence is sound.
Still too much deadwood to come off the wage bill.
I'd rather finance a stadium already more than half built than be thinking about an entirely new one.
Income will skyrocket once it is open.

DavidL

rcs1000 said:

FPT, but I'm "like farming", so I thought I'd post it again:

DavidL said:

HYUFD said:

MoonRabbit said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

BREAKING: Boris Johnson’s spokesperson says all of the former PM’s WhatsApps and notebooks requested by Covid Inquiry have been handed to Cabinet Office in full.

Now up to Cabinet Office to hand them over to Inquiry or not. Johnson urges them to do so. Deadline 4pm tomorrow.

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1663934293498908672

From a political betting view point, Primeminister Wallace or Mourdant might be close now.

Sunak might be toast. He is already in a very weak position. With Tories on 28% and slaughtered in the locals - Sunak’s WhatsAppGate could be about to finish him. The second Tory PM this parliament brought down by covid.

A worry for Labour as they clearly have Sunak beaten, sub 200 Tory seats even. But PM Penny might trump Labour appeals for a fresh change.

Penny will come across as more centre ground to voters than the increasingly right wing Starmer front bench.

Sunak actually polls better than his party, especially with under 50s and urban professionals.

Mordaunt is too woke for the party membership as leader.

I doubt the whatsapp messages will make the slightest difference to Sunak's position, indeed Tory and RefUK voters think we locked down too early and too long if anything

With the benefit of hindsight, which I fully accept was not available at the time and the risks were very difficult to calculate, I think it is far from clear that we should ever have locked down at all. Protected vulnerable groups, certainly. Ensured proper protection for medical and care staff beyond doubt. But closing schools, factories, pubs, restaurants, etc. I think it was a mistake now.

The problem is, of course, that we didn't have the benefit of hindsight. We had terrible scenes coming out of Northern Italy and New York. We had stories of ambulances running through the night.

And we knew very little of successful treatment methods, and had little idea when - or even if - a vaccine would be forthcoming.

I don't blame the government for the initial lockdown.

I do blame them for the severity of the restrictions, and the length of time they went on for, despite all the evidence that we were getting on top of the disease. It is an absolute disgrace that, even though we had a fantastic headstart with the vaccine roll out, that we lagged so many of our European peers for the removal of restrictions.

Yes, I accept that this is with hindsight. We never got near a collapse of the hospital system, we never used the nightingale hospitals, the projections the government were being given were alarming but entirely wrong.
I accept given what was not known, the first lockdown was probably inevitable but I would still want the inquiry to look at whether it was in fact a good idea and whether we should ever do the like again faced with anything similar. The subsequent lockdowns were increasingly bizarre.

Peter_the_Punter

Farooq said:

MoonRabbit said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Mexicanpete said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Mexicanpete said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sorry @dixiedean but I think this means Everton are fucked, even more so than if you were relegated.

The Treasury’s sanctions police have been reviewing the finances of the Everton Football Club owner, Farhad Moshiri, the Guardian understands.

Moshiri appears to have become a person of interest to the Office of Financial Sanctions Implementation (OFSI) because of his links to Alisher Usmanov, the Russian-Uzbek billionaire who was sanctioned by the UK, the EU and the US after last year’s invasion of Ukraine.

Usmanov has also been barred from entering the UK since September 2021 after his presence was “not deemed conducive to the public good”.

The apparent interest in Moshiri coincides with months of reporting by the Guardian, which has raised questions about the influence Usmanov has exerted over Moshiri and the Premier League club, including how the Russian tycoon came to attend job interviews with a series of prospective Everton managers before March 2022.

It also follows a Guardian report that revealed how the club’s auditor, BDO, stepped away from signing off the club’s accounts last year – a decision sources said was related to the ownership of the Premier League team.

The Guardian understands that BDO’s concerns led to OFSI being notified about Moshiri, who has hired an expert sanctions lawyer at Peters & Peters – one of the UK’s largest law firms – according to correspondence sent to the Guardian on Moshiri’s behalf.

The news of OFSI’s apparent interest in Moshiri’s finances has emerged as the football team narrowly avoided relegation from the Premier League and while Moshiri is attempting to find investment to bankroll the club and complete its new stadium.

It is understood that an investment offer on the table would result in Moshiri – who is estimated to have ploughed £750m into Everton – losing control of the club without being paid a penny, according to sources close to the negotiations.

Any lack of payment to Moshiri could raise questions about whether Everton is being treated in a similar manner to Chelsea FC when it was acquired from the sanctioned oligarch Roman Abramovich last year. Abramovich was prevented by the UK government from benefiting financially from the sale of the London club...

...However, the Guardian understands that Moshiri’s UK bank closed his account last year, seemingly because of his connections to Usmanov.

Moshiri declined to comment on OFSI’s apparent interest in his finances or the status of his UK bank account. The Treasury said that neither it nor OFSI commented on individual cases.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/may/31/treasurys-sanctions-police-reviewing-finances-of-everton-fc-owner-guardian-understands

Wow, and I thought the Baggies would be the first historically big club to fully implode. It seems Everton might beat us to it. A toffee anyone?

As someone who deals with OFSI on a regular basis this is the fact that has my eyebrows in orbit.

However, the Guardian understands that Moshiri’s UK bank closed his account last year, seemingly because of his connections to Usmanov.

At least Moshiri hasn't helped himself to a shed load of loans against the value of the club payments of which are overdue.

Everton should at least be saleable.

The thing is Everton have huge debts.

Possible points deduction/transfer embargo.

Also a stadium to finance.

Their cool new stadium, floating on the front, is going to be fantastic though, you do concede that?

Liverpool could take over it after Everton get wound up. Anfield 2.0

And then the old joke might actually become true:

Q: Who's the second best football team in Liverpool?

A: Liverpool reserves.

Westie

Off-topic but many here are interested in the implications of AI, so here goes...

Stack Exchange, by far and away the most influential "expert" question and answer site on the internet - and an instructive window on internet society including in its dynamic aspects - is in the process of getting AI-whacked.

Sadly it seems that most of those who until now have been working for the company for free, in some cases for many years, seem to fail to understand what's going on, believing it to come from stupidity.

https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/389653/blog-post-ceo-update-paving-the-road-forward-with-ai-and-community-at-the-cent

DavidL

Taz said:

Heathener said:

I wonder how many other pb'ers regularly use buses? I was on a couple today, and they're great for litmus tests of public mood.

The die is cast. People have made up their minds and the polls will change very little right up until next year's General Election.

Have a nice evening.

xx

Is the mood anger.

Are the people mutinous ?

Is it a (drumroll) shellacking.

I am not on buses often but I have never heard anyone on one even mentioning politics.

state_go_away

DavidL said:

rcs1000 said:

FPT, but I'm "like farming", so I thought I'd post it again:

DavidL said:

HYUFD said:

MoonRabbit said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

BREAKING: Boris Johnson’s spokesperson says all of the former PM’s WhatsApps and notebooks requested by Covid Inquiry have been handed to Cabinet Office in full.

Now up to Cabinet Office to hand them over to Inquiry or not. Johnson urges them to do so. Deadline 4pm tomorrow.

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1663934293498908672

From a political betting view point, Primeminister Wallace or Mourdant might be close now.

Sunak might be toast. He is already in a very weak position. With Tories on 28% and slaughtered in the locals - Sunak’s WhatsAppGate could be about to finish him. The second Tory PM this parliament brought down by covid.

A worry for Labour as they clearly have Sunak beaten, sub 200 Tory seats even. But PM Penny might trump Labour appeals for a fresh change.

Penny will come across as more centre ground to voters than the increasingly right wing Starmer front bench.

Sunak actually polls better than his party, especially with under 50s and urban professionals.

Mordaunt is too woke for the party membership as leader.

I doubt the whatsapp messages will make the slightest difference to Sunak's position, indeed Tory and RefUK voters think we locked down too early and too long if anything

With the benefit of hindsight, which I fully accept was not available at the time and the risks were very difficult to calculate, I think it is far from clear that we should ever have locked down at all. Protected vulnerable groups, certainly. Ensured proper protection for medical and care staff beyond doubt. But closing schools, factories, pubs, restaurants, etc. I think it was a mistake now.

The problem is, of course, that we didn't have the benefit of hindsight. We had terrible scenes coming out of Northern Italy and New York. We had stories of ambulances running through the night.

And we knew very little of successful treatment methods, and had little idea when - or even if - a vaccine would be forthcoming.

I don't blame the government for the initial lockdown.

I do blame them for the severity of the restrictions, and the length of time they went on for, despite all the evidence that we were getting on top of the disease. It is an absolute disgrace that, even though we had a fantastic headstart with the vaccine roll out, that we lagged so many of our European peers for the removal of restrictions.

Yes, I accept that this is with hindsight. We never got near a collapse of the hospital system, we never used the nightingale hospitals, the projections the government were being given were alarming but entirely wrong.
I accept given what was not known, the first lockdown was probably inevitable but I would still want the inquiry to look at whether it was in fact a good idea and whether we should ever do the like again faced with anything similar. The subsequent lockdowns were increasingly bizarre.

the mask mandate was ridiculous and cowardly - masks did F all to stop the virus as proved by Scotland having higher rates of infection whilst having a mask mandate when England eventually relaxed it. The mask thig was especially evil when applied in schools

dixiedean

Mexicanpete said:

...

TheScreamingEagles said:

dixiedean said:

By contrast with TSE.
This investigation into Moshiri/Usmanov is great news, wonderfully timed.
Anything that hastens the departure of the most incompetent owner in the division has to be good.
Everton, as a Premier League club with a super funky new City centre ground, would be attractive to a billionaire, even with all the debts.
And it couldn't be any worse run.

That stadium hasn't been fully financed.

Add in acquisition costs and a first team squad that needs adding to then Everton aren't that attractive, even before a potential points deduction for breaching FPP.

I remember the summer and autumn of 2010 when it looked my club was heading for administration/bankruptcy, I do not want other fans to go through that. It was stressful.

The oversight by the football authorities is shocking.

Some foreign based assett stripper comes in with borrowed money. Repays the loan he took out to buy the club and they help themselves to their own yacht and Ferrari loan by mortgaging the club assets. Then when it all caves in the fans get a transfer embargo and a
15 point deduction. The former owner gets to keep the yacht and the fleet of Ferraris.

That's true.
But that isn't what happened at Everton.
That was pure incompetence.

Northern_Al

dixiedean said:

pm215 said:

dixiedean said:

Yet another passenger discovered today she'd been paying for an £8.60 day ticket when all single journeys are capped at £2, and have been since January.
Have not seen a single notice on a bus about this.

The ones around here (Cambridge) have an "All single fares 2 pounds or less" on the digital display on the front of the bus (alternating with the bus number/destination, I think).

Do they? So it's down to the company?
A competent government would have had such a display as a condition of the subsidy.

Where I am, everybody pays by tapping their card, and you're charged £2, so it's working well.
All the buses along the coast were heaving today, through a combination of it being half term, no trains, but mainly the £2 fare for any distance.
Like you, I'm baffled why the government isn't trumpeting this more. It's a great policy. The only one the Tories have had in recent years.

Stuartinromford

Andy_JS said:

Interesting change since 2005 when Labour won a 66 seat majority with a lead of just 3%.

Partly Scotland, partly vote distribution.

In 2019, there was quite a bit of anti-Corbyn tactical voting. Just unwinding that will be worth a fair few seats to Labour.

state_go_away

Northern_Al said:

dixiedean said:

pm215 said:

dixiedean said:

Yet another passenger discovered today she'd been paying for an £8.60 day ticket when all single journeys are capped at £2, and have been since January.
Have not seen a single notice on a bus about this.

The ones around here (Cambridge) have an "All single fares 2 pounds or less" on the digital display on the front of the bus (alternating with the bus number/destination, I think).

Do they? So it's down to the company?
A competent government would have had such a display as a condition of the subsidy.

Where I am, everybody pays by tapping their card, and you're charged £2, so it's working well.
All the buses along the coast were heaving today, through a combination of it being half term, no trains, but mainly the £2 fare for any distance.
Like you, I'm baffled why the government isn't trumpeting this more. It's a great policy. The only one the Tories have had in recent years.

yes one of the better uses of taxpayer money . Especially as it benefits younger folk rather than pensioners

dixiedean

Northern_Al said:

dixiedean said:

pm215 said:

dixiedean said:

Yet another passenger discovered today she'd been paying for an £8.60 day ticket when all single journeys are capped at £2, and have been since January.
Have not seen a single notice on a bus about this.

The ones around here (Cambridge) have an "All single fares 2 pounds or less" on the digital display on the front of the bus (alternating with the bus number/destination, I think).

Do they? So it's down to the company?
A competent government would have had such a display as a condition of the subsidy.

Where I am, everybody pays by tapping their card, and you're charged £2, so it's working well.
All the buses along the coast were heaving today, through a combination of it being half term, no trains, but mainly the £2 fare for any distance.
Like you, I'm baffled why the government isn't trumpeting this more. It's a great policy. The only one the Tories have had in recent years.

So great they took Burnham to court to stop it. Lost. Then brought it in nationwide.
They are obviously conflicted. So much that they've extended it twice. Without really mentioning it. It has halved the cost and more of getting to Toon. Places like Berwick become affordable for a family day out.

Northern_Al

DavidL said:

rcs1000 said:

FPT, but I'm "like farming", so I thought I'd post it again:

DavidL said:

HYUFD said:

MoonRabbit said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

BREAKING: Boris Johnson’s spokesperson says all of the former PM’s WhatsApps and notebooks requested by Covid Inquiry have been handed to Cabinet Office in full.

Now up to Cabinet Office to hand them over to Inquiry or not. Johnson urges them to do so. Deadline 4pm tomorrow.

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1663934293498908672

From a political betting view point, Primeminister Wallace or Mourdant might be close now.

Sunak might be toast. He is already in a very weak position. With Tories on 28% and slaughtered in the locals - Sunak’s WhatsAppGate could be about to finish him. The second Tory PM this parliament brought down by covid.

A worry for Labour as they clearly have Sunak beaten, sub 200 Tory seats even. But PM Penny might trump Labour appeals for a fresh change.

Penny will come across as more centre ground to voters than the increasingly right wing Starmer front bench.

Sunak actually polls better than his party, especially with under 50s and urban professionals.

Mordaunt is too woke for the party membership as leader.

I doubt the whatsapp messages will make the slightest difference to Sunak's position, indeed Tory and RefUK voters think we locked down too early and too long if anything

With the benefit of hindsight, which I fully accept was not available at the time and the risks were very difficult to calculate, I think it is far from clear that we should ever have locked down at all. Protected vulnerable groups, certainly. Ensured proper protection for medical and care staff beyond doubt. But closing schools, factories, pubs, restaurants, etc. I think it was a mistake now.

The problem is, of course, that we didn't have the benefit of hindsight. We had terrible scenes coming out of Northern Italy and New York. We had stories of ambulances running through the night.

And we knew very little of successful treatment methods, and had little idea when - or even if - a vaccine would be forthcoming.

I don't blame the government for the initial lockdown.

I do blame them for the severity of the restrictions, and the length of time they went on for, despite all the evidence that we were getting on top of the disease. It is an absolute disgrace that, even though we had a fantastic headstart with the vaccine roll out, that we lagged so many of our European peers for the removal of restrictions.

Yes, I accept that this is with hindsight. We never got near a collapse of the hospital system, we never used the nightingale hospitals, the projections the government were being given were alarming but entirely wrong.
I accept given what was not known, the first lockdown was probably inevitable but I would still want the inquiry to look at whether it was in fact a good idea and whether we should ever do the like again faced with anything similar. The subsequent lockdowns were increasingly bizarre.

Perhaps 'we never got near a collapse of the hospital system' precisely because the restrictions put in place were effective in reducing the spread of the virus?

Taz

DavidL said:

Taz said:

Heathener said:

I wonder how many other pb'ers regularly use buses? I was on a couple today, and they're great for litmus tests of public mood.

The die is cast. People have made up their minds and the polls will change very little right up until next year's General Election.

Have a nice evening.

xx

Is the mood anger.

Are the people mutinous ?

Is it a (drumroll) shellacking.

I am not on buses often but I have never heard anyone on one even mentioning politics.

I use them in Durham as they are pretty good. I never have either.

But I guess it’s like that ability politicians have, finding people, or bumping into people, who just happen to share their worldview.

Westie

Heathener said:

I wonder how many other pb'ers regularly use buses? I was on a couple today, and they're great for litmus tests of public mood.

The die is cast. People have made up their minds and the polls will change very little right up until next year's General Election.

The parties should all strike a deal with each other to minimise their expenditure on campaigning, then, if it won't change anything. One can assume too that the eve-of-election polls, which will be the same as the polls now, will be highly accurate predictors. Let's sell volatility and make a fortune. Seriously if I wanted to make a volatility wager I'd do the opposite.

Leon

Turns out I might be going, on a professional basis, to Ukraine - in July

*turns to camera*

*nods with stoical masculinity*

Yup

CorrectHorseBat

Wes Streeting simply has to be the next Labour leader.

Mexicanpete

Leon said:

Turns out I might be going, on a professional basis, to Ukraine - in July

*turns to camera*

*nods with stoical masculinity*

Yup

What colour is the boat house at Hereford?

dixiedean

Leon said:

Turns out I might be going, on a professional basis, to Ukraine - in July

*turns to camera*

*nods with stoical masculinity*

Yup

Wagner Group that desperate?

Andy_JS

CorrectHorseBat said:

I too think the Tories are finished.

I asked my friends in Putney and they confirmed it. So it's true

Putney being the only seat that went from Tory to Labour at the last election, lol.

Mexicanpete

CorrectHorseBat said:

Wes Streeting simply has to be the next Labour leader.

Has he started the procedure yet? The next leader has to be a lady!

Stuartinromford

DavidL said:

rcs1000 said:

FPT, but I'm "like farming", so I thought I'd post it again:

DavidL said:

HYUFD said:

MoonRabbit said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

BREAKING: Boris Johnson’s spokesperson says all of the former PM’s WhatsApps and notebooks requested by Covid Inquiry have been handed to Cabinet Office in full.

Now up to Cabinet Office to hand them over to Inquiry or not. Johnson urges them to do so. Deadline 4pm tomorrow.

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1663934293498908672

From a political betting view point, Primeminister Wallace or Mourdant might be close now.

Sunak might be toast. He is already in a very weak position. With Tories on 28% and slaughtered in the locals - Sunak’s WhatsAppGate could be about to finish him. The second Tory PM this parliament brought down by covid.

A worry for Labour as they clearly have Sunak beaten, sub 200 Tory seats even. But PM Penny might trump Labour appeals for a fresh change.

Penny will come across as more centre ground to voters than the increasingly right wing Starmer front bench.

Sunak actually polls better than his party, especially with under 50s and urban professionals.

Mordaunt is too woke for the party membership as leader.

I doubt the whatsapp messages will make the slightest difference to Sunak's position, indeed Tory and RefUK voters think we locked down too early and too long if anything

With the benefit of hindsight, which I fully accept was not available at the time and the risks were very difficult to calculate, I think it is far from clear that we should ever have locked down at all. Protected vulnerable groups, certainly. Ensured proper protection for medical and care staff beyond doubt. But closing schools, factories, pubs, restaurants, etc. I think it was a mistake now.

The problem is, of course, that we didn't have the benefit of hindsight. We had terrible scenes coming out of Northern Italy and New York. We had stories of ambulances running through the night.

And we knew very little of successful treatment methods, and had little idea when - or even if - a vaccine would be forthcoming.

I don't blame the government for the initial lockdown.

I do blame them for the severity of the restrictions, and the length of time they went on for, despite all the evidence that we were getting on top of the disease. It is an absolute disgrace that, even though we had a fantastic headstart with the vaccine roll out, that we lagged so many of our European peers for the removal of restrictions.

Yes, I accept that this is with hindsight. We never got near a collapse of the hospital system, we never used the nightingale hospitals, the projections the government were being given were alarming but entirely wrong.
I accept given what was not known, the first lockdown was probably inevitable but I would still want the inquiry to look at whether it was in fact a good idea and whether we should ever do the like again faced with anything similar. The subsequent lockdowns were increasingly bizarre.

I suspect the big difference for next time is that we can be much more optimistic that a good vaccine can be got into people's arms very quickly. That will change the calculations about lockdown. (Part of the logic of the Swedish approach was that a vaccine would be several years away.)

The mRNA technology is blooming amazing.

CorrectHorseBat

Andy_JS said:

CorrectHorseBat said:

I too think the Tories are finished.

I asked my friends in Putney and they confirmed it. So it's true

Putney being the only seat that went from Tory to Labour at the last election, lol.

That was the point.

DavidL

wrong.
I accept given what was not known, the

Northern_Al said:

DavidL said:

rcs1000 said:

FPT, but I'm "like farming", so I thought I'd post it again:

DavidL said:

HYUFD said:

MoonRabbit said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

BREAKING: Boris Johnson’s spokesperson says all of the former PM’s WhatsApps and notebooks requested by Covid Inquiry have been handed to Cabinet Office in full.

Now up to Cabinet Office to hand them over to Inquiry or not. Johnson urges them to do so. Deadline 4pm tomorrow.

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1663934293498908672

From a political betting view point, Primeminister Wallace or Mourdant might be close now.

Sunak might be toast. He is already in a very weak position. With Tories on 28% and slaughtered in the locals - Sunak’s WhatsAppGate could be about to finish him. The second Tory PM this parliament brought down by covid.

A worry for Labour as they clearly have Sunak beaten, sub 200 Tory seats even. But PM Penny might trump Labour appeals for a fresh change.

Penny will come across as more centre ground to voters than the increasingly right wing Starmer front bench.

Sunak actually polls better than his party, especially with under 50s and urban professionals.

Mordaunt is too woke for the party membership as leader.

I doubt the whatsapp messages will make the slightest difference to Sunak's position, indeed Tory and RefUK voters think we locked down too early and too long if anything

With the benefit of hindsight, which I fully accept was not available at the time and the risks were very difficult to calculate, I think it is far from clear that we should ever have locked down at all. Protected vulnerable groups, certainly. Ensured proper protection for medical and care staff beyond doubt. But closing schools, factories, pubs, restaurants, etc. I think it was a mistake now.

The problem is, of course, that we didn't have the benefit of hindsight. We had terrible scenes coming out of Northern Italy and New York. We had stories of ambulances running through the night.

And we knew very little of successful treatment methods, and had little idea when - or even if - a vaccine would be forthcoming.

I don't blame the government for the initial lockdown.

I do blame them for the severity of the restrictions, and the length of time they went on for, despite all the evidence that we were getting on top of the disease. It is an absolute disgrace that, even though we had a fantastic headstart with the vaccine roll out, that we lagged so many of our European peers for the removal of restrictions.

Yes, I accept that this is with hindsight. We never got near a collapse of the hospital system, we never used the nightingale hospitals, the projections the government were being given were alarming but entirely wrong.
I accept given what was not known, the first lockdown was probably inevitable but I would still want the inquiry to look at whether it was in fact a good idea and whether we should ever do the like again faced with anything similar. The subsequent lockdowns were increasingly bizarre.

Perhaps 'we never got near a collapse of the hospital system' precisely because the restrictions put in place were effective in reducing the spread of the virus?

No because when you look at the projections, based on exponential growth, we were given time after time, that had the assumption of the steps taken built in we just did not get close to the best case scenario that they set out. They were wrong. They were mainly wrong because they assumed exponential growth would continue in the real world far longer than it ever did.

Dura_Ace

Sunil_Prasannan said:

state_go_away said:

Farooq said:

MoonRabbit said:

I’ve got this feeling, all those promises to Ukraine to fast track their NATO and EU membership are going to sound horriblyhollow in 10-15 years time ☹️

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/31/macron-to-call-for-european-strategic-awakening-after-ukraine-invasion

Who promised those things?

Ukraine is a pretty corrupt place

Would you say it's more corrupt than your Russian friends?

About the same in my experience with everyone at every level on the take. Although Ukraine was significantly poorer even before it got fucked up and depopulated.

HYUFD

Andy_JS said:

CorrectHorseBat said:

I too think the Tories are finished.

I asked my friends in Putney and they confirmed it. So it's true

Putney being the only seat that went from Tory to Labour at the last election, lol.

Indeed, if it was Horse's friends in Bishop Auckland or Dover he might have more of a point.

Now both might now be leaning Labour but even Corbyn won Putney

CorrectHorseBat

Can nobody seriously tell I was joking, FFS!

CorrectHorseBat

Mexicanpete said:

CorrectHorseBat said:

Wes Streeting simply has to be the next Labour leader.

Has he started the procedure yet? The next leader has to be a lady!

Bollocks. It must be Wes.

Mexicanpete

CorrectHorseBat said:

Mexicanpete said:

CorrectHorseBat said:

Wes Streeting simply has to be the next Labour leader.

Has he started the procedure yet? The next leader has to be a lady!

Bollocks. It must be Wes.

Indeed, they must be removed first.

Penddu2

JosiasJessop said:

Is there a scientific name for the juice you get out of blisters when you burst them?

Carling

Taz

CorrectHorseBat said:

Wes Streeting simply has to be the next Labour leader.

He’s lost the support of the EverydoctorUK bunch who flogged masks and pens to save rNHS, so possibly not.

Leon

dixiedean said:

Leon said:

Turns out I might be going, on a professional basis, to Ukraine - in July

*turns to camera*

*nods with stoical masculinity*

Yup

Wagner Group that desperate?

Well, they do like ex-jailbirds and junkies

CorrectHorseBat

Mexicanpete said:

CorrectHorseBat said:

Mexicanpete said:

CorrectHorseBat said:

Wes Streeting simply has to be the next Labour leader.

Has he started the procedure yet? The next leader has to be a lady!

Bollocks. It must be Wes.

Indeed, they must be removed first.

Pete I am crying!

DavidL

Stuartinromford said:

DavidL said:

rcs1000 said:

FPT, but I'm "like farming", so I thought I'd post it again:

DavidL said:

HYUFD said:

MoonRabbit said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

BREAKING: Boris Johnson’s spokesperson says all of the former PM’s WhatsApps and notebooks requested by Covid Inquiry have been handed to Cabinet Office in full.

Now up to Cabinet Office to hand them over to Inquiry or not. Johnson urges them to do so. Deadline 4pm tomorrow.

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1663934293498908672

From a political betting view point, Primeminister Wallace or Mourdant might be close now.

Sunak might be toast. He is already in a very weak position. With Tories on 28% and slaughtered in the locals - Sunak’s WhatsAppGate could be about to finish him. The second Tory PM this parliament brought down by covid.

A worry for Labour as they clearly have Sunak beaten, sub 200 Tory seats even. But PM Penny might trump Labour appeals for a fresh change.

Penny will come across as more centre ground to voters than the increasingly right wing Starmer front bench.

Sunak actually polls better than his party, especially with under 50s and urban professionals.

Mordaunt is too woke for the party membership as leader.

I doubt the whatsapp messages will make the slightest difference to Sunak's position, indeed Tory and RefUK voters think we locked down too early and too long if anything

With the benefit of hindsight, which I fully accept was not available at the time and the risks were very difficult to calculate, I think it is far from clear that we should ever have locked down at all. Protected vulnerable groups, certainly. Ensured proper protection for medical and care staff beyond doubt. But closing schools, factories, pubs, restaurants, etc. I think it was a mistake now.

The problem is, of course, that we didn't have the benefit of hindsight. We had terrible scenes coming out of Northern Italy and New York. We had stories of ambulances running through the night.

And we knew very little of successful treatment methods, and had little idea when - or even if - a vaccine would be forthcoming.

I don't blame the government for the initial lockdown.

I do blame them for the severity of the restrictions, and the length of time they went on for, despite all the evidence that we were getting on top of the disease. It is an absolute disgrace that, even though we had a fantastic headstart with the vaccine roll out, that we lagged so many of our European peers for the removal of restrictions.

Yes, I accept that this is with hindsight. We never got near a collapse of the hospital system, we never used the nightingale hospitals, the projections the government were being given were alarming but entirely wrong.
I accept given what was not known, the first lockdown was probably inevitable but I would still want the inquiry to look at whether it was in fact a good idea and whether we should ever do the like again faced with anything similar. The subsequent lockdowns were increasingly bizarre.

I suspect the big difference for next time is that we can be much more optimistic that a good vaccine can be got into people's arms very quickly. That will change the calculations about lockdown. (Part of the logic of the Swedish approach was that a vaccine would be several years away.)

The mRNA technology is blooming amazing.

Absolutely. The huge boost that technology got from Covid is one of the few clear benefits. The fact that it was possible to design and manufacture a vaccine based on a computer model without even any of the virus to work on still blows my mind.

JosiasJessop

Penddu2 said:

JosiasJessop said:

Is there a scientific name for the juice you get out of blisters when you burst them?

Carling

That... was a brilliant answer. You win PB today.

Foxy

stodge said:

The YouGov numbers are far from desperate for the Conservatives.

The 2019 Conservative vote is splitting 45% Conservative, 21% Don't Know ,11% Labour and 9% Reform. That 21% DK represents 9% of the total electorate so get most of those back and the Conservative VI is back into the low 30s. That's a big IF as @MoonRabbit might say.

Among the 65+ age group (excluding the DKs), the Conservatives lead 50-23 with Reform on 12. In 2019, this age group split 64-17 so that's only a 10% swing to Labour in the largest Conservative-voting group.

In England, the split is 45-26-12 with Reform on 8 and Green on 7. That equates to a 16% swing in England from Conservative to Labour. That would mean over 200 Conservative MPs losing their seats before we even consider tactical voting.

The hope for the Conservatives must be to try to claw the DKs back into the loyal camp but the gap (especially in England) remains large for all the older voters seem to be moving back slowly into the Conservative camp but among the largest age group (the 25-49 year olds), Labour enjoys a massive lead.

Interesting article in the FT on why Tories are so miserable, having jettisoned Thatcherism for a mess of Brexit pottage.

https://twitter.com/robertshrimsley/status/1663900062726909952?t=jBJNWTAqk7zMhDrO9cgt2A&s=19

Andy_JS

I'm sure it was warmer than this on Christmas Day. (Checks data). https://world-weather.info/forecast/united_kingdom/london/december-2022/

darkage

Northern_Al said:

DavidL said:

rcs1000 said:

FPT, but I'm "like farming", so I thought I'd post it again:

DavidL said:

HYUFD said:

MoonRabbit said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

BREAKING: Boris Johnson’s spokesperson says all of the former PM’s WhatsApps and notebooks requested by Covid Inquiry have been handed to Cabinet Office in full.

Now up to Cabinet Office to hand them over to Inquiry or not. Johnson urges them to do so. Deadline 4pm tomorrow.

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1663934293498908672

From a political betting view point, Primeminister Wallace or Mourdant might be close now.

Sunak might be toast. He is already in a very weak position. With Tories on 28% and slaughtered in the locals - Sunak’s WhatsAppGate could be about to finish him. The second Tory PM this parliament brought down by covid.

A worry for Labour as they clearly have Sunak beaten, sub 200 Tory seats even. But PM Penny might trump Labour appeals for a fresh change.

Penny will come across as more centre ground to voters than the increasingly right wing Starmer front bench.

Sunak actually polls better than his party, especially with under 50s and urban professionals.

Mordaunt is too woke for the party membership as leader.

I doubt the whatsapp messages will make the slightest difference to Sunak's position, indeed Tory and RefUK voters think we locked down too early and too long if anything

With the benefit of hindsight, which I fully accept was not available at the time and the risks were very difficult to calculate, I think it is far from clear that we should ever have locked down at all. Protected vulnerable groups, certainly. Ensured proper protection for medical and care staff beyond doubt. But closing schools, factories, pubs, restaurants, etc. I think it was a mistake now.

The problem is, of course, that we didn't have the benefit of hindsight. We had terrible scenes coming out of Northern Italy and New York. We had stories of ambulances running through the night.

And we knew very little of successful treatment methods, and had little idea when - or even if - a vaccine would be forthcoming.

I don't blame the government for the initial lockdown.

I do blame them for the severity of the restrictions, and the length of time they went on for, despite all the evidence that we were getting on top of the disease. It is an absolute disgrace that, even though we had a fantastic headstart with the vaccine roll out, that we lagged so many of our European peers for the removal of restrictions.

Yes, I accept that this is with hindsight. We never got near a collapse of the hospital system, we never used the nightingale hospitals, the projections the government were being given were alarming but entirely wrong.
I accept given what was not known, the first lockdown was probably inevitable but I would still want the inquiry to look at whether it was in fact a good idea and whether we should ever do the like again faced with anything similar. The subsequent lockdowns were increasingly bizarre.

Perhaps 'we never got near a collapse of the hospital system' precisely because the restrictions put in place were effective in reducing the spread of the virus?

This type of argument leads me to the point of view that Covid may well have been an episode of mass psychosis and delusion.

Alphabet_Soup

JosiasJessop said:

Is there a scientific name for the juice you get out of blisters when you burst them?

If the blisters are on your feet it would be pus in boots.

ohnotnow

JosiasJessop said:

Is there a scientific name for the juice you get out of blisters when you burst them?

Not sure - but I used to work with a woman who had a kind of fetish for blisters (and any kind of 'puss' spots). Bursting them was her utmost pleasure. Other than that - straight down the line puritan.

Big_G_NorthWales

Has this been covered

Mike Pence to enter race for White House

https://news.sky.com/story/chris-christie-to-enter-race-to-be-republican-candidate-against-president-biden-for-white-house-12893823

Foxy

Leon said:

Turns out I might be going, on a professional basis, to Ukraine - in July

*turns to camera*

*nods with stoical masculinity*

Yup

I would keep quiet about your Putin-manlove, unless of course visiting the occupied bits.