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Why I’m betting that Trump won’t be the WH2024 nominee – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,835

    Sandpit said:

    “at least” presented a lot of wriggle room…

    In 2017, Scot Gov said their social security agency would have “at least 1,500 jobs”

    As of December 2022 it had 3,816 full-time equivalent staff - significantly more than seems to have been envisaged.

    And it's still struggling


    https://twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1659128795649957889?s=20

    Why do government agencies keep measuring inputs rather than outputs?
    Because public sector management is largely about cost management.

    This explains, for example, why we never fund enough doctors. Treasury expressly forbids it, in case a glut of doctors are produced which might then need to be employed by the NHS.
    However the doctors also have a huge stake in not training enough doctors - it keeps their wages high. Pharmacy underwent an explosion of training places 20 years ago and as a result the salaries, particularly for locum shifts, went through the floor. This led to pharmacy being seen as less desirable and the numbers of students dropped too. We've been on a boom/bust cycle ever since, and are currently riding the next boom.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 21,258

    My God, the Conservative MP for Don Valley currently on WATO is a moron!

    Surely the exclation mark would only be needed if your sentence ended in surprise?
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,973
    I see Damian Green is on TV relaying fond memories of swimming in filth as a child.

    Possibly explains his alleged porn habits.
  • Options

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Point taken on the German reunification issue, which was not included in the original stats page.

    However, looking up, there's something rather interesting, which indicates overall that the major population centres ( in Western Germany and Berlin ) have actually had a very similar level of immigration to the UK over the last fifty years, but with wages and water standards remaining much higher. About 3 million have immigrated from Eastern Germany to those population centres over the last 30 years, which together with the non-Germans, altogether brings up a very similar figure for rise in the population to the UK.

    Are you on ketamine?
    I've never tried Ketamine, only some mushrooms very briefly, in the 1980's.

    The main German population centres overall have had the same kind of rises as the UK. Obviously intra-country immigration is not the same as external immigration because stresses are spread out; but you'd still expect it to affect the entirety of the rest of the country disproportionately ; and it's also only about 2-3 million of the 11 million figure.
    You seem to be living in a parallel universe.

    Berlin population
    2000: 3.387 mn
    2019: 3.645 mn

    London population
    2000: 7.195 mn
    2019: 8.982 mn

    How is the main German population centres growth remotely the same kind of rises as in the UK? Its just a matter of fact not true.

    Please quote any German centres figures and compare them with comparable British figures. The facts say otherwise.
    The East of Germany seems to have been declining in population since the 1950's.

    The West of Germany experienced an immigration fuelled rise of about 11 million between 1950 and 1989, with about 2 million already being from East Germany. From what I can see, we in the UK experienced a rise of only half that between about 1950 and 1990, of about 9 million. Since then, the rises between both countries seem to be about the same, and if the rural parts of the East are still emptying out, one would have to assume that they're also still leaving to concentrate and put pressure on the big, resource-intensive population centres of the West.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1054199/population-of-east-and-west-germany/#:~:text=Because of this difference, West,16.4 million during this time.
    Apologies, I do need a coffee today - 9 million is ofcourse not half of 11 million ! That's unforunately been combined with the fact that the figures and graph pages for West Germany, and Germany overall, are difficult to keep track of, and separately plot.

    However, that doesn't affect the overall point ; Germany has experienced similar changes in population, in fact faster for many years, and retained both better water standards and wages. And, as Malmesbury mentioned below, it's also about political will, once you know you have a higher population to service. Do we simply want to plan, fund and invest for this properly, or not ?
    The best time to admit defeat in this argument was half an hour ago when you completely forgot about German unification. The second best time is now
    Mais non Leon, because the overall point stands.

    Germany - and other countries - have experienced similar strains to us, but have managed them differently. There's only a god-given law that immigration has to result in poorer services if one has a long history of not investing in and planning for these things properly.
    It requires the building of houses and infrastructure *BEFORE* the population increases.

    Instead we have people wanting almost unlimited minimum-wage immigration, while simultaneously objecting to a single house being built within 10 miles of themselves, and with the highest tax burden in living memory.

    Even Jacob Rees-Mogg gets it, that housing is the single biggest issue facing the country at the moment. He got a massive round of applause on Question Time for saying just that.
    But to return to the original point, these things are not just about urban planning, but conscious choices about the kind of wages, economy and society we want. Why have German wages been higher for the last 60 years, when rises in population have been generally comparable over that time, as we've seen ?

    In fact, during the 1980's and before reunification, when British real wages were stagnating, the German population was still rising *faster* than the UK one, from what I've interestedly seen today.
    Population is not just about immigration, its about 4 factors: immigration, emigration, births and deaths. Germany has for decades now had a comparable immigration and death rate to the UK, but much lower birth rate, and much higher emigration rate, hence why Germany has had a stable population but the UK has had a growing one.

    Until the Thatcherite reforms of the 1980s the UK was the 'sick man of Europe' so real British wages were stagnating, yes, the UK economy picked up after Thatcher reformed the economy.

    Rises in population have not been comparable over that time. But population and wages are not related - America has had far more population growth, and far higher wages too.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,612
    glw said:

    Sandpit said:

    “at least” presented a lot of wriggle room…

    In 2017, Scot Gov said their social security agency would have “at least 1,500 jobs”

    As of December 2022 it had 3,816 full-time equivalent staff - significantly more than seems to have been envisaged.

    And it's still struggling


    https://twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1659128795649957889?s=20

    Why do government agencies keep measuring inputs rather than outputs?
    Good question. Why do we go on about the number of nurses, hospital beds, policemen, prison places and so on. None of those should be of any concern if the system actually works.
    It’s the old Civil Service mindset, from Yes Minister, where the question is “What do you do here?”, and the answer is “I have 3,000 people working for me”.

    Commercial businesses don’t measure inputs, they measure outputs.

    I was once a manager in a call centre. If my boss had asked me how I did last week, and I replied that my team worked for a combined 450 hours, I’d have been fired.

    My team answered 92% of calls within three rings, the first-line team fixed 78% of problems at an average call time of 4’33”, and the outstanding number of tickets dropped by 22%.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,835

    I see Damian Green is on TV relaying fond memories of swimming in filth as a child.

    Possibly explains his alleged porn habits.

    The Tories are not doing well explaining their point on this.

    I believe that there are huge problems with our rivers and the sea and that we should aim for zero overflow of sewage into them.

    However I also believe that one of the reasons for this being an issue is the recording of ALL such incidents. They have always happened. Historically many of our rivers were in a terrible polluted state, yet in recent times their health is much improved. Salmon have returned and so on. Much of the bad press is being boosted by the act of measuring the harm, which was being committed anyway,

    Its also not easy to stop, without huge scale investment and projects (see London's new system for example). Simply the regulators need to increase the pressure to get this done, and the time scales need to be as fast as possible.

    But it would be nice to have some sense of perspective about whats really going on.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,452

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Point taken on the German reunification issue, which was not included in the original stats page.

    However, looking up, there's something rather interesting, which indicates overall that the major population centres ( in Western Germany and Berlin ) have actually had a very similar level of immigration to the UK over the last fifty years, but with wages and water standards remaining much higher. About 3 million have immigrated from Eastern Germany to those population centres over the last 30 years, which together with the non-Germans, altogether brings up a very similar figure for rise in the population to the UK.

    Are you on ketamine?
    I've never tried Ketamine, only some mushrooms very briefly, in the 1980's.

    The main German population centres overall have had the same kind of rises as the UK. Obviously intra-country immigration is not the same as external immigration because stresses are spread out; but you'd still expect it to affect the entirety of the rest of the country disproportionately ; and it's also only about 2-3 million of the 11 million figure.
    You seem to be living in a parallel universe.

    Berlin population
    2000: 3.387 mn
    2019: 3.645 mn

    London population
    2000: 7.195 mn
    2019: 8.982 mn

    How is the main German population centres growth remotely the same kind of rises as in the UK? Its just a matter of fact not true.

    Please quote any German centres figures and compare them with comparable British figures. The facts say otherwise.
    The East of Germany seems to have been declining in population since the 1950's.

    The West of Germany experienced an immigration fuelled rise of about 11 million between 1950 and 1989, with about 2 million already being from East Germany. From what I can see, we in the UK experienced a rise of only half that between about 1950 and 1990, of about 9 million. Since then, the rises between both countries seem to be about the same, and if the rural parts of the East are still emptying out, one would have to assume that they're also still leaving to concentrate and put pressure on the big, resource-intensive population centres of the West.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1054199/population-of-east-and-west-germany/#:~:text=Because of this difference, West,16.4 million during this time.
    Apologies, I do need a coffee today - 9 million is ofcourse not half of 11 million ! That's unforunately been combined with the fact that the figures and graph pages for West Germany, and Germany overall, are difficult to keep track of, and separately plot.

    However, that doesn't affect the overall point ; Germany has experienced similar changes in population, in fact faster for many years, and retained both better water standards and wages. And, as Malmesbury mentioned below, it's also about political will, once you know you have a higher population to service. Do we simply want to plan, fund and invest for this properly, or not ?
    The best time to admit defeat in this argument was half an hour ago when you completely forgot about German unification. The second best time is now
    Mais non Leon, because the overall point stands.

    Germany - and other countries - have experienced similar strains to us, but have managed them differently. There's only a god-given law that immigration has to result in poorer services if one has a long history of not investing in and planning for these things properly.
    It requires the building of houses and infrastructure *BEFORE* the population increases.

    Instead we have people wanting almost unlimited minimum-wage immigration, while simultaneously objecting to a single house being built within 10 miles of themselves, and with the highest tax burden in living memory.

    Even Jacob Rees-Mogg gets it, that housing is the single biggest issue facing the country at the moment. He got a massive round of applause on Question Time for saying just that.
    But to return to the original point, these things are not just about urban planning, but conscious choices about the kind of wages, economy and society we want. Why have German wages been higher for the last 60 years, when rises in population have been generally comparable over that time, as we've seen ?

    In fact, during the 1980's and before reunification, when British real wages were stagnating, the German population was still rising *faster* than the UK one, from what I've interestedly seen today.
    Population is not just about immigration, its about 4 factors: immigration, emigration, births and deaths. Germany has for decades now had a comparable immigration and death rate to the UK, but much lower birth rate, and much higher emigration rate, hence why Germany has had a stable population but the UK has had a growing one.

    Until the Thatcherite reforms of the 1980s the UK was the 'sick man of Europe' so real British wages were stagnating, yes, the UK economy picked up after Thatcher reformed the economy.

    Rises in population have not been comparable over that time. But population and wages are not related - America has had far more population growth, and far higher wages too.
    I think you are debating with someone determined not to know.

    The fact is that we seem to want a population growing at half a percent a year, but build housing and infrastructure as if it wasn't.

    The population isn't growing at half a percent a year in Germany.

  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,973

    I see Damian Green is on TV relaying fond memories of swimming in filth as a child.

    Possibly explains his alleged porn habits.

    The Tories are not doing well explaining their point on this.

    I believe that there are huge problems with our rivers and the sea and that we should aim for zero overflow of sewage into them.

    However I also believe that one of the reasons for this being an issue is the recording of ALL such incidents. They have always happened. Historically many of our rivers were in a terrible polluted state, yet in recent times their health is much improved. Salmon have returned and so on. Much of the bad press is being boosted by the act of measuring the harm, which was being committed anyway,

    Its also not easy to stop, without huge scale investment and projects (see London's new system for example). Simply the regulators need to increase the pressure to get this done, and the time scales need to be as fast as possible.

    But it would be nice to have some sense of perspective about whats really going on.
    This is surely a big part of the story.
    But so is what seems to be a poorly regulated sector.
    Even @Alanbrooke (no soft hearted lefty) notes thus upthread.

    Things seem to have got worse after Cameron / Truss deregulated further in 2015.

    The public want this fixed.
    And we don’t want to wait 25 years.
    Nor is the public unreasonable, I think.

  • Options
    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,034
    There are now two councils - Lewes and Cherwell - where Labour have withdrawn from being part of a rainbow coalition (Lab, LD, Green) supposedly at the order of Labour NEC. Local reports in both cases have cited a direct NEC instruction.

    What is going on?
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,420

    Ghedebrav said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I am on the ugliest road in the world. I have been driving on this road for 3 and a half hours and I have five more hours to go



    You are not on the ugliest road in the world. We have gone over this on PB.

    The ugliest road in the world is the A47 heading towards King's Lynn.
    Ok the 2nd ugliest road after the A47 towards Kings Lynn

    We’re just passing a pretty little village

    To be honest, I would much rather be in East Anglia.
    I quite like the flat landscapes of the Fens. I like to be able to stop in a layby, scramble up a drainage ditch and be able to see 15 different church steeples and a windmill. I love the huge breezy blue skies. Delightful.
    Just off the A47 approaching King's Lynn is Walpole St Peter, thought by some (me included) to be the finest parish church in England.

    It is quite similar to the church I grew up in the shadow of, St. Mary's in Tickhill, S. Yorks - another perpendicular parish classic.
    Yes, that is a classic. I often stop in the churchyard there on bike rides.

    I saw the castle was up for sale recently for a mere million or two. A castle in Tickhill or a flat in London? The housing market is bonkers.
    Rumour has it a well known rock guitarist has bought it (or rather, bought the leasehold).
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,452

    I see Damian Green is on TV relaying fond memories of swimming in filth as a child.

    Possibly explains his alleged porn habits.

    The Tories are not doing well explaining their point on this.

    I believe that there are huge problems with our rivers and the sea and that we should aim for zero overflow of sewage into them.

    However I also believe that one of the reasons for this being an issue is the recording of ALL such incidents. They have always happened. Historically many of our rivers were in a terrible polluted state, yet in recent times their health is much improved. Salmon have returned and so on. Much of the bad press is being boosted by the act of measuring the harm, which was being committed anyway,

    Its also not easy to stop, without huge scale investment and projects (see London's new system for example). Simply the regulators need to increase the pressure to get this done, and the time scales need to be as fast as possible.

    But it would be nice to have some sense of perspective about whats really going on.
    The cynical might suggest that the reason that the Thames Scheme was planned and executed (almost in time) was that the Thames flows past the House of Commons.

    The regulator, in the Thames case, allowed bills to increase to pay for the work.

    Bit like the story behind the original Bazalgette scheme
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,635
    edited May 2023

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Point taken on the German reunification issue, which was not included in the original stats page.

    However, looking up, there's something rather interesting, which indicates overall that the major population centres ( in Western Germany and Berlin ) have actually had a very similar level of immigration to the UK over the last fifty years, but with wages and water standards remaining much higher. About 3 million have immigrated from Eastern Germany to those population centres over the last 30 years, which together with the non-Germans, altogether brings up a very similar figure for rise in the population to the UK.

    Are you on ketamine?
    I've never tried Ketamine, only some mushrooms very briefly, in the 1980's.

    The main German population centres overall have had the same kind of rises as the UK. Obviously intra-country immigration is not the same as external immigration because stresses are spread out; but you'd still expect it to affect the entirety of the rest of the country disproportionately ; and it's also only about 2-3 million of the 11 million figure.
    You seem to be living in a parallel universe.

    Berlin population
    2000: 3.387 mn
    2019: 3.645 mn

    London population
    2000: 7.195 mn
    2019: 8.982 mn

    How is the main German population centres growth remotely the same kind of rises as in the UK? Its just a matter of fact not true.

    Please quote any German centres figures and compare them with comparable British figures. The facts say otherwise.
    The East of Germany seems to have been declining in population since the 1950's.

    The West of Germany experienced an immigration fuelled rise of about 11 million between 1950 and 1989, with about 2 million already being from East Germany. From what I can see, we in the UK experienced a rise of only half that between about 1950 and 1990, of about 9 million. Since then, the rises between both countries seem to be about the same, and if the rural parts of the East are still emptying out, one would have to assume that they're also still leaving to concentrate and put pressure on the big, resource-intensive population centres of the West.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1054199/population-of-east-and-west-germany/#:~:text=Because of this difference, West,16.4 million during this time.
    Apologies, I do need a coffee today - 9 million is ofcourse not half of 11 million ! That's unforunately been combined with the fact that the figures and graph pages for West Germany, and Germany overall, are difficult to keep track of, and separately plot.

    However, that doesn't affect the overall point ; Germany has experienced similar changes in population, in fact faster for many years, and retained both better water standards and wages. And, as Malmesbury mentioned below, it's also about political will, once you know you have a higher population to service. Do we simply want to plan, fund and invest for this properly, or not ?
    The best time to admit defeat in this argument was half an hour ago when you completely forgot about German unification. The second best time is now
    Mais non Leon, because the overall point stands.

    Germany - and other countries - have experienced similar strains to us, but have managed them differently. There's only a god-given law that immigration has to result in poorer services if one has a long history of not investing in and planning for these things properly.
    It requires the building of houses and infrastructure *BEFORE* the population increases.

    Instead we have people wanting almost unlimited minimum-wage immigration, while simultaneously objecting to a single house being built within 10 miles of themselves, and with the highest tax burden in living memory.

    Even Jacob Rees-Mogg gets it, that housing is the single biggest issue facing the country at the moment. He got a massive round of applause on Question Time for saying just that.
    But to return to the original point, these things are not just about urban planning, but conscious choices about the kind of wages, economy and society we want. Why have German wages been higher for the last 60 years, when rises in population have been generally comparable over that time, as we've seen ?

    In fact, during the 1980's and before reunification, when British real wages were stagnating, the German population was still rising *faster* than the UK one, from what I've interestedly seen today.
    Population is not just about immigration, its about 4 factors: immigration, emigration, births and deaths. Germany has for decades now had a comparable immigration and death rate to the UK, but much lower birth rate, and much higher emigration rate, hence why Germany has had a stable population but the UK has had a growing one.

    Until the Thatcherite reforms of the 1980s the UK was the 'sick man of Europe' so real British wages were stagnating, yes, the UK economy picked up after Thatcher reformed the economy.

    Rises in population have not been comparable over that time. But population and wages are not related - America has had far more population growth, and far higher wages too.
    The last point is very politically important, though, because a decrease in wages is often used as an anti-immigration argument.

    On real wages growth, comparing these two graphs is interesting. One seems to be measuring wages growth and the other wages themselves, but taken together there's some useful information. With a blip in the 2000s, Germany seem to have done consistently better than the UK, including years of the 1980's, when during the years of the 1980's when it had much higher immigration than the UK.

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Mean-establishments-wages-in-real-terms-in-West-Germany-weighted-by-establishment-size_fig3_366944073

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jan/31/real-wages-falling-longest-period-ons-record


  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,452
    Ghedebrav said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I am on the ugliest road in the world. I have been driving on this road for 3 and a half hours and I have five more hours to go



    You are not on the ugliest road in the world. We have gone over this on PB.

    The ugliest road in the world is the A47 heading towards King's Lynn.
    Ok the 2nd ugliest road after the A47 towards Kings Lynn

    We’re just passing a pretty little village

    To be honest, I would much rather be in East Anglia.
    I quite like the flat landscapes of the Fens. I like to be able to stop in a layby, scramble up a drainage ditch and be able to see 15 different church steeples and a windmill. I love the huge breezy blue skies. Delightful.
    Just off the A47 approaching King's Lynn is Walpole St Peter, thought by some (me included) to be the finest parish church in England.

    It is quite similar to the church I grew up in the shadow of, St. Mary's in Tickhill, S. Yorks - another perpendicular parish classic.
    Yes, that is a classic. I often stop in the churchyard there on bike rides.

    I saw the castle was up for sale recently for a mere million or two. A castle in Tickhill or a flat in London? The housing market is bonkers.
    Rumour has it a well known rock guitarist has bought it (or rather, bought the leasehold).
    The problem with such properties, is that they cost a fortune to keep going.

    Hence the endless cycle of people buying French minor chateau, then selling them when they realise the yearly upkeep is about the same as the initial price....
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 13,078

    There are now two councils - Lewes and Cherwell - where Labour have withdrawn from being part of a rainbow coalition (Lab, LD, Green) supposedly at the order of Labour NEC. Local reports in both cases have cited a direct NEC instruction.

    What is going on?

    Last night's Council meeting at Cherwell was about seven months early but a promising start to the 2023 panto season.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,807

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Point taken on the German reunification issue, which was not included in the original stats page.

    However, looking up, there's something rather interesting, which indicates overall that the major population centres ( in Western Germany and Berlin ) have actually had a very similar level of immigration to the UK over the last fifty years, but with wages and water standards remaining much higher. About 3 million have immigrated from Eastern Germany to those population centres over the last 30 years, which together with the non-Germans, altogether brings up a very similar figure for rise in the population to the UK.

    Are you on ketamine?
    I've never tried Ketamine, only some mushrooms very briefly, in the 1980's.

    The main German population centres overall have had the same kind of rises as the UK. Obviously intra-country immigration is not the same as external immigration because stresses are spread out; but you'd still expect it to affect the entirety of the rest of the country disproportionately ; and it's also only about 2-3 million of the 11 million figure.
    You seem to be living in a parallel universe.

    Berlin population
    2000: 3.387 mn
    2019: 3.645 mn

    London population
    2000: 7.195 mn
    2019: 8.982 mn

    How is the main German population centres growth remotely the same kind of rises as in the UK? Its just a matter of fact not true.

    Please quote any German centres figures and compare them with comparable British figures. The facts say otherwise.
    The East of Germany seems to have been declining in population since the 1950's.

    The West of Germany experienced an immigration fuelled rise of about 11 million between 1950 and 1989, with about 2 million already being from East Germany. From what I can see, we in the UK experienced a rise of only half that between about 1950 and 1990, of about 9 million. Since then, the rises between both countries seem to be about the same, and if the rural parts of the East are still emptying out, one would have to assume that they're also still leaving to concentrate and put pressure on the big, resource-intensive population centres of the West.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1054199/population-of-east-and-west-germany/#:~:text=Because of this difference, West,16.4 million during this time.
    Apologies, I do need a coffee today - 9 million is ofcourse not half of 11 million ! That's unforunately been combined with the fact that the figures and graph pages for West Germany, and Germany overall, are difficult to keep track of, and separately plot.

    However, that doesn't affect the overall point ; Germany has experienced similar changes in population, in fact faster for many years, and retained both better water standards and wages. And, as Malmesbury mentioned below, it's also about political will, once you know you have a higher population to service. Do we simply want to plan, fund and invest for this properly, or not ?
    The best time to admit defeat in this argument was half an hour ago when you completely forgot about German unification. The second best time is now
    Mais non Leon, because the overall point stands.

    Germany - and other countries - have experienced similar strains to us, but have managed them differently. There's only a god-given law that immigration has to result in poorer services if one has a long history of not investing in and planning for these things properly.
    It requires the building of houses and infrastructure *BEFORE* the population increases.

    Instead we have people wanting almost unlimited minimum-wage immigration, while simultaneously objecting to a single house being built within 10 miles of themselves, and with the highest tax burden in living memory.

    Even Jacob Rees-Mogg gets it, that housing is the single biggest issue facing the country at the moment. He got a massive round of applause on Question Time for saying just that.
    But to return to the original point, these things are not just about urban planning, but conscious choices about the kind of wages, economy and society we want. Why have German wages been higher for the last 60 years, when rises in population have been generally comparable over that time, as we've seen ?

    In fact, during the 1980's and before reunification, when British real wages were stagnating, the German population was still rising *faster* than the UK one, from what I've interestedly seen today.
    Population is not just about immigration, its about 4 factors: immigration, emigration, births and deaths. Germany has for decades now had a comparable immigration and death rate to the UK, but much lower birth rate, and much higher emigration rate, hence why Germany has had a stable population but the UK has had a growing one.

    Until the Thatcherite reforms of the 1980s the UK was the 'sick man of Europe' so real British wages were stagnating, yes, the UK economy picked up after Thatcher reformed the economy.

    Rises in population have not been comparable over that time. But population and wages are not related - America has had far more population growth, and far higher wages too.
    I think you are debating with someone determined not to know.

    The fact is that we seem to want a population growing at half a percent a year, but build housing and infrastructure as if it wasn't.

    The population isn't growing at half a percent a year in Germany.

    That is the key issue. We want immigration. Otherwise we would vote for parties that pledge to end it. As we saw with Brexit, for issues that the public believes are important enough a party will be elected handsomely which pledges to address it.
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,420

    Ghedebrav said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I am on the ugliest road in the world. I have been driving on this road for 3 and a half hours and I have five more hours to go



    You are not on the ugliest road in the world. We have gone over this on PB.

    The ugliest road in the world is the A47 heading towards King's Lynn.
    Ok the 2nd ugliest road after the A47 towards Kings Lynn

    We’re just passing a pretty little village

    To be honest, I would much rather be in East Anglia.
    I quite like the flat landscapes of the Fens. I like to be able to stop in a layby, scramble up a drainage ditch and be able to see 15 different church steeples and a windmill. I love the huge breezy blue skies. Delightful.
    Just off the A47 approaching King's Lynn is Walpole St Peter, thought by some (me included) to be the finest parish church in England.

    It is quite similar to the church I grew up in the shadow of, St. Mary's in Tickhill, S. Yorks - another perpendicular parish classic.
    Yes, that is a classic. I often stop in the churchyard there on bike rides.

    I saw the castle was up for sale recently for a mere million or two. A castle in Tickhill or a flat in London? The housing market is bonkers.
    Rumour has it a well known rock guitarist has bought it (or rather, bought the leasehold).
    The problem with such properties, is that they cost a fortune to keep going.

    Hence the endless cycle of people buying French minor chateau, then selling them when they realise the yearly upkeep is about the same as the initial price....
    True, but it's not really a castle - it's big house in the grounds of a ruined castle. It's also in a good state of repair having been in pretty much constant occupation for at least the last hundred years or so.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tickhill_Castle
  • Options
    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,034
    stodge said:

    There are now two councils - Lewes and Cherwell - where Labour have withdrawn from being part of a rainbow coalition (Lab, LD, Green) supposedly at the order of Labour NEC. Local reports in both cases have cited a direct NEC instruction.

    What is going on?

    Last night's Council meeting at Cherwell was about seven months early but a promising start to the 2023 panto season.
    Oh I know. I was shouting at the screen repeatedly.

    Some of the local Conservatives really like the sound of their own voice.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,888
    edited May 2023

    I think the UK should keep growing.
    100m Brits by 2075.

    There’s plenty of room if we were to densify Birmingham, Glasgow, Manchester and Leeds.

    Britain should aim to be the dominant power in Europe.
    Why not?

    Why go about it like that? At the peak of its global power, Britain always had a smaller population than the major European states.
    Did it?

    Prior to German unification, didn't the UK have a higher population than Prussia or any of the other German states?

    The UK as far as I know, prior to German unification, had a smaller population than France, Austria and Spain but a larger population than most other major states?
    Austria? Spain? What are you on about?

    Ah wait you mean the German unification under Bismarck

    I’m pretty sure even then the UK had a bigger population than Spain

    Re the Austro-Hungarian empire - dunno
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,101
    edited May 2023

    There are now two councils - Lewes and Cherwell - where Labour have withdrawn from being part of a rainbow coalition (Lab, LD, Green) supposedly at the order of Labour NEC. Local reports in both cases have cited a direct NEC instruction.

    What is going on?

    In Lewes Labour may be considering what happened down the road in Brighton where Labour eviscerated the Greens.

    Fuller report:

    https://www.sussexexpress.co.uk/news/politics/negotiations-continue-over-future-administration-at-lewes-district-council-as-labour-nationally-vetoes-arrangements-4147663

    The chap who interrupted Jacob Rees Mogg is a Lewes Green Councillor

    https://twitter.com/brightonargus/status/1658827209186988033?s=20
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,635
    edited May 2023

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Point taken on the German reunification issue, which was not included in the original stats page.

    However, looking up, there's something rather interesting, which indicates overall that the major population centres ( in Western Germany and Berlin ) have actually had a very similar level of immigration to the UK over the last fifty years, but with wages and water standards remaining much higher. About 3 million have immigrated from Eastern Germany to those population centres over the last 30 years, which together with the non-Germans, altogether brings up a very similar figure for rise in the population to the UK.

    Are you on ketamine?
    I've never tried Ketamine, only some mushrooms very briefly, in the 1980's.

    The main German population centres overall have had the same kind of rises as the UK. Obviously intra-country immigration is not the same as external immigration because stresses are spread out; but you'd still expect it to affect the entirety of the rest of the country disproportionately ; and it's also only about 2-3 million of the 11 million figure.
    You seem to be living in a parallel universe.

    Berlin population
    2000: 3.387 mn
    2019: 3.645 mn

    London population
    2000: 7.195 mn
    2019: 8.982 mn

    How is the main German population centres growth remotely the same kind of rises as in the UK? Its just a matter of fact not true.

    Please quote any German centres figures and compare them with comparable British figures. The facts say otherwise.
    The East of Germany seems to have been declining in population since the 1950's.

    The West of Germany experienced an immigration fuelled rise of about 11 million between 1950 and 1989, with about 2 million already being from East Germany. From what I can see, we in the UK experienced a rise of only half that between about 1950 and 1990, of about 9 million. Since then, the rises between both countries seem to be about the same, and if the rural parts of the East are still emptying out, one would have to assume that they're also still leaving to concentrate and put pressure on the big, resource-intensive population centres of the West.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1054199/population-of-east-and-west-germany/#:~:text=Because of this difference, West,16.4 million during this time.
    Apologies, I do need a coffee today - 9 million is ofcourse not half of 11 million ! That's unforunately been combined with the fact that the figures and graph pages for West Germany, and Germany overall, are difficult to keep track of, and separately plot.

    However, that doesn't affect the overall point ; Germany has experienced similar changes in population, in fact faster for many years, and retained both better water standards and wages. And, as Malmesbury mentioned below, it's also about political will, once you know you have a higher population to service. Do we simply want to plan, fund and invest for this properly, or not ?
    The best time to admit defeat in this argument was half an hour ago when you completely forgot about German unification. The second best time is now
    Mais non Leon, because the overall point stands.

    Germany - and other countries - have experienced similar strains to us, but have managed them differently. There's only a god-given law that immigration has to result in poorer services if one has a long history of not investing in and planning for these things properly.
    It requires the building of houses and infrastructure *BEFORE* the population increases.

    Instead we have people wanting almost unlimited minimum-wage immigration, while simultaneously objecting to a single house being built within 10 miles of themselves, and with the highest tax burden in living memory.

    Even Jacob Rees-Mogg gets it, that housing is the single biggest issue facing the country at the moment. He got a massive round of applause on Question Time for saying just that.
    But to return to the original point, these things are not just about urban planning, but conscious choices about the kind of wages, economy and society we want. Why have German wages been higher for the last 60 years, when rises in population have been generally comparable over that time, as we've seen ?

    In fact, during the 1980's and before reunification, when British real wages were stagnating, the German population was still rising *faster* than the UK one, from what I've interestedly seen today.
    Population is not just about immigration, its about 4 factors: immigration, emigration, births and deaths. Germany has for decades now had a comparable immigration and death rate to the UK, but much lower birth rate, and much higher emigration rate, hence why Germany has had a stable population but the UK has had a growing one.

    Until the Thatcherite reforms of the 1980s the UK was the 'sick man of Europe' so real British wages were stagnating, yes, the UK economy picked up after Thatcher reformed the economy.

    Rises in population have not been comparable over that time. But population and wages are not related - America has had far more population growth, and far higher wages too.
    The last point is very politically important, though, because a decrease in wages is often used as an anti-immigration argument.

    On real wages growth, comparing these two graphs is interesting. One seems to be measuring wages growth and the other wages themselves, but taken together there's some useful information. With a blip in the 2000s, Germany seem to have done consistently better than the UK, including years of the 1980's, when during the years of the 1980's when it had much higher immigration than the UK.

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Mean-establishments-wages-in-real-terms-in-West-Germany-weighted-by-establishment-size_fig3_366944073

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jan/31/real-wages-falling-longest-period-ons-record


    Right, too much fatigue and repetition in my posts today.

    Off for a coffee, but just before ;

    << think you are debating with someone determined not to know.

    The fact is that we seem to want a population growing at half a percent a year, but build housing and infrastructure as if it wasn't.

    The population isn't growing at half a percent a year in Germany.>>

    The operative point is that Germany has has had long-term increases in population, like us, and has done long-term planning for them - as well as having higher wages and better education and training.

    We also need to make these plans over the long-term, and neither overnight blame immigrants, or accept the right resources to be in place overnight, when they cannot be.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,956
    edited May 2023
    ...

    I see Damian Green is on TV relaying fond memories of swimming in filth as a child.

    Possibly explains his alleged porn habits.

    The Tories are not doing well explaining their point on this.

    I believe that there are huge problems with our rivers and the sea and that we should aim for zero overflow of sewage into them.

    However I also believe that one of the reasons for this being an issue is the recording of ALL such incidents. They have always happened. Historically many of our rivers were in a terrible polluted state, yet in recent times their health is much improved. Salmon have returned and so on. Much of the bad press is being boosted by the act of measuring the harm, which was being committed anyway,

    Its also not easy to stop, without huge scale investment and projects (see London's new system for example). Simply the regulators need to increase the pressure to get this done, and the time scales need to be as fast as possible.

    But it would be nice to have some sense of perspective about whats really going on.
    ITV was showing bar charts explaining that non-storm outputs to surface waters increased significantly.

    The water companies were privatised debt -free, on the whole they now hold substantial debt. Last year water company dividends to shareholders exceeded £1B.

    Maybe you have a march on me and you are right, and they are doing a great job. Regulators like the EA/NRW/ SEPA/NIEA, all of whom I deal with, and all of whom are underfunded and useless, each take water companies through the courts. Substantial fines are levied, and then the water companies continue as before, and so the circle continues. So long as profits vastly outstrip fines who cares?
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,973
    One of my ancestors left Tickhill for NZ to fight in the Land Wars.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 13,078

    There are now two councils - Lewes and Cherwell - where Labour have withdrawn from being part of a rainbow coalition (Lab, LD, Green) supposedly at the order of Labour NEC. Local reports in both cases have cited a direct NEC instruction.

    What is going on?

    Lewes has 17 Greens, 15 Liberal Democrats and 9 Labour so as long as the Greens and LDs work together, what Labour does, apart from forming an opposition group, doesn't much matter.

    The Conservatives lost all 19 seats on the authority.

    Cherwell is much more finely balanced with 20 Conservatives and 2 supporting Independents up against 10 Labour, 10 LD, 3 Green and 3 supporting Independents (though one of them is the Mayor). The fact remains, as the Conservatives seemed slow to appreciate last night, 25 is a larger number than 22 and however often they nominate their group leader to be Council leader, there are more opposed than in support.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,959

    There are now two councils - Lewes and Cherwell - where Labour have withdrawn from being part of a rainbow coalition (Lab, LD, Green) supposedly at the order of Labour NEC. Local reports in both cases have cited a direct NEC instruction.

    What is going on?

    Birmingham Council also in trouble?

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/17/labour-nec-decide-next-birmingham-city-council-leader-damning-report
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,888
    I just managed to buy wine in a provincial Egyptian town. It’s like scoring heroin in Dorset. Someone knows of “somewhere” that maybe sells liquor and then it doesn’t exist but then there’s a guy who gives you a wink and says “go there” in a whisper and it’s some weird hotel with a bar hidden in a corner of a dark lobby and one guy says “no bottles! No bottles!” Coz he doesn’t approve but the other guys tell him to fuck off coz they want the business. And thus I have bought two bottles of Egyptian red wine

  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,807

    There are now two councils - Lewes and Cherwell - where Labour have withdrawn from being part of a rainbow coalition (Lab, LD, Green) supposedly at the order of Labour NEC. Local reports in both cases have cited a direct NEC instruction.

    What is going on?

    Standard stuff from Labour.

    When my council ended up NOC in 2010, we LibDems met both leading Tory and Labour councillors to discuss a possible deal.

    Whilst the meeting with the Tories focused on the nuts and bolts of how we’d run the council and what each group wished to achieve, the meeting with Labour councillors consisted of a lecture from them about their internal party processes and all the procedural hoops they would have to jump through before we could agree any deal, which would mean us waiting while various local and regional Labour Party committees met over coming weeks.

    No surprise which way we decided to go.

  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,612
    tlg86 said:

    Ouch!

    https://order-order.com/2023/05/18/carole-cadwalladr-ordered-to-pay-over-1-million-in-banks-legal-costs/

    The Court of Appeal has ordered that Carole Cadwalladr must pay 60% of Arron Banks’ legal fees to the tune of £1,242,634.

    Presumably the Grauniad will pick up the bill, rather than letting their star ‘journalist’ be declared bankrupt?
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,973

    Ghedebrav said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I am on the ugliest road in the world. I have been driving on this road for 3 and a half hours and I have five more hours to go



    You are not on the ugliest road in the world. We have gone over this on PB.

    The ugliest road in the world is the A47 heading towards King's Lynn.
    Ok the 2nd ugliest road after the A47 towards Kings Lynn

    We’re just passing a pretty little village

    To be honest, I would much rather be in East Anglia.
    I quite like the flat landscapes of the Fens. I like to be able to stop in a layby, scramble up a drainage ditch and be able to see 15 different church steeples and a windmill. I love the huge breezy blue skies. Delightful.
    Just off the A47 approaching King's Lynn is Walpole St Peter, thought by some (me included) to be the finest parish church in England.

    It is quite similar to the church I grew up in the shadow of, St. Mary's in Tickhill, S. Yorks - another perpendicular parish classic.
    Yes, that is a classic. I often stop in the churchyard there on bike rides.

    I saw the castle was up for sale recently for a mere million or two. A castle in Tickhill or a flat in London? The housing market is bonkers.
    Rumour has it a well known rock guitarist has bought it (or rather, bought the leasehold).
    The problem with such properties, is that they cost a fortune to keep going.

    Hence the endless cycle of people buying French minor chateau, then selling them when they realise the yearly upkeep is about the same as the initial price....
    The trick is to buy the chateau and then get a tv franchise about your hilarious trials at restoration.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,612
    Leon said:

    I just managed to buy wine in a provincial Egyptian town. It’s like scoring heroin in Dorset. Someone knows of “somewhere” that maybe sells liquor and then it doesn’t exist but then there’s a guy who gives you a wink and says “go there” in a whisper and it’s some weird hotel with a bar hidden in a corner of a dark lobby and one guy says “no bottles! No bottles!” Coz he doesn’t approve but the other guys tell him to fuck off coz they want the business. And thus I have bought two bottles of Egyptian red wine

    Welcome to the Middle East!
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,495

    I see Damian Green is on TV relaying fond memories of swimming in filth as a child.

    Possibly explains his alleged porn habits.

    The Tories are not doing well explaining their point on this.

    I believe that there are huge problems with our rivers and the sea and that we should aim for zero overflow of sewage into them.

    However I also believe that one of the reasons for this being an issue is the recording of ALL such incidents. They have always happened. Historically many of our rivers were in a terrible polluted state, yet in recent times their health is much improved. Salmon have returned and so on. Much of the bad press is being boosted by the act of measuring the harm, which was being committed anyway,

    Its also not easy to stop, without huge scale investment and projects (see London's new system for example). Simply the regulators need to increase the pressure to get this done, and the time scales need to be as fast as possible.

    But it would be nice to have some sense of perspective about whats really going on.
    This is surely a big part of the story.
    But so is what seems to be a poorly regulated sector.
    Even @Alanbrooke (no soft hearted lefty) notes thus upthread.

    Things seem to have got worse after Cameron / Truss deregulated further in 2015.

    The public want this fixed.
    And we don’t want to wait 25 years.
    Nor is the public unreasonable, I think.

    Indeed. Water quality had improved markedly since the 1980s. Partly that's down to deindustrialisation but also the investment carried out by the private water companies.

    Of all the privatisations, water was probably the most difficult to justify in terms of market competition because there really isn't any, nor can you even create pseudo-markets or secondary markets as in energy. It really is a natural monopoly. However, there were still decent reasons to privatise: namely that the state starves mundane utilities of investment because the political pressure is to keep bills down and there are no bright, shiny media stories that come with, say, drain renewal (quite the contrary often, when people get annoyed at streets being dug up). The private companies could charge more realistically, borrow off the states balance-sheet and get on with delivering.

    But all that required and requires effective regulation - and that looks increasingly not to be happening. I don't know why, whether its down to the regulator being under-resourced, under-powered, producer-captured or what. But it's not happening.

    Strict targets need setting, with penalties including not only fines but limitations on dividends and director pay. Regulations need to include accurate measurement of water quality and sewage discharge (litres, not just hours).
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,959

    India has the Overseas Indian Citizenship.
    It’s a kind of quasi citizenship. For example, holders can’t vote or buy agricultural land.
    Weirdly, I am eligible.

    Just a glorified life-long visa, really. (And yes, I do have one!)
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,973
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I just managed to buy wine in a provincial Egyptian town. It’s like scoring heroin in Dorset. Someone knows of “somewhere” that maybe sells liquor and then it doesn’t exist but then there’s a guy who gives you a wink and says “go there” in a whisper and it’s some weird hotel with a bar hidden in a corner of a dark lobby and one guy says “no bottles! No bottles!” Coz he doesn’t approve but the other guys tell him to fuck off coz they want the business. And thus I have bought two bottles of Egyptian red wine

    Welcome to the Middle East!
    Sounds shit, frankly.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,136
    Ghedebrav said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I am on the ugliest road in the world. I have been driving on this road for 3 and a half hours and I have five more hours to go



    You are not on the ugliest road in the world. We have gone over this on PB.

    The ugliest road in the world is the A47 heading towards King's Lynn.
    Ok the 2nd ugliest road after the A47 towards Kings Lynn

    We’re just passing a pretty little village

    To be honest, I would much rather be in East Anglia.
    I quite like the flat landscapes of the Fens. I like to be able to stop in a layby, scramble up a drainage ditch and be able to see 15 different church steeples and a windmill. I love the huge breezy blue skies. Delightful.
    Just off the A47 approaching King's Lynn is Walpole St Peter, thought by some (me included) to be the finest parish church in England.

    It is quite similar to the church I grew up in the shadow of, St. Mary's in Tickhill, S. Yorks - another perpendicular parish classic.
    Yes, that is a classic. I often stop in the churchyard there on bike rides.

    I saw the castle was up for sale recently for a mere million or two. A castle in Tickhill or a flat in London? The housing market is bonkers.
    Rumour has it a well known rock guitarist has bought it (or rather, bought the leasehold).
    The problem with such properties, is that they cost a fortune to keep going.

    Hence the endless cycle of people buying French minor chateau, then selling them when they realise the yearly upkeep is about the same as the initial price....
    True, but it's not really a castle - it's big house in the grounds of a ruined castle. It's also in a good state of repair having been in pretty much constant occupation for at least the last hundred years or so.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tickhill_Castle
    Tickhill Castle is open only one day a year on the second Sunday of each June between the hours of 2.00 to 4.00 p.m.

    I'll have to try and remember to pay a visit seeing as I live 3 miles south of the castle.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,888
    edited May 2023
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I just managed to buy wine in a provincial Egyptian town. It’s like scoring heroin in Dorset. Someone knows of “somewhere” that maybe sells liquor and then it doesn’t exist but then there’s a guy who gives you a wink and says “go there” in a whisper and it’s some weird hotel with a bar hidden in a corner of a dark lobby and one guy says “no bottles! No bottles!” Coz he doesn’t approve but the other guys tell him to fuck off coz they want the business. And thus I have bought two bottles of Egyptian red wine

    Welcome to the Middle East!
    It adds a pleasurable frisson of taboo-breaking, if I’m honest. Sticking it to the man

    It’s also a massive pain in the arse and it would drive me mad over time
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,612
    edited May 2023

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I just managed to buy wine in a provincial Egyptian town. It’s like scoring heroin in Dorset. Someone knows of “somewhere” that maybe sells liquor and then it doesn’t exist but then there’s a guy who gives you a wink and says “go there” in a whisper and it’s some weird hotel with a bar hidden in a corner of a dark lobby and one guy says “no bottles! No bottles!” Coz he doesn’t approve but the other guys tell him to fuck off coz they want the business. And thus I have bought two bottles of Egyptian red wine

    Welcome to the Middle East!
    Sounds shit, frankly.
    It’s not like that where I am, but it was when I first visited here a couple of decades ago. Until quite recently, going for a road trip one Saturday morning a month, to where there was a much cheaper ‘shop’ 150km from the city, was part of the culture.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,807
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I just managed to buy wine in a provincial Egyptian town. It’s like scoring heroin in Dorset. Someone knows of “somewhere” that maybe sells liquor and then it doesn’t exist but then there’s a guy who gives you a wink and says “go there” in a whisper and it’s some weird hotel with a bar hidden in a corner of a dark lobby and one guy says “no bottles! No bottles!” Coz he doesn’t approve but the other guys tell him to fuck off coz they want the business. And thus I have bought two bottles of Egyptian red wine

    Welcome to the Middle East!
    I haven't been to many countries at all in the middle east but Morocco I think fulfils many of the criteria of more enlightened regime and environment. I was actually in Morocco on 9/11. Staying at, wait for it, "Les Deux Tours".

    (One for Leon)



    The next day in the papers the King made a statement saying they (Morocco) didn't hate anyone and rejected the premise behind the attacks.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 28,147
    Eabhal said:

    This is probably the most important news today. Major headache for all parties.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/may/18/obese-patients-cost-nhs-twice-much-healthy-weight-study

    I'd be interested to know whether obesity is slightly lower now than it was just before the pandemic.
  • Options
    .

    ...

    I see Damian Green is on TV relaying fond memories of swimming in filth as a child.

    Possibly explains his alleged porn habits.

    The Tories are not doing well explaining their point on this.

    I believe that there are huge problems with our rivers and the sea and that we should aim for zero overflow of sewage into them.

    However I also believe that one of the reasons for this being an issue is the recording of ALL such incidents. They have always happened. Historically many of our rivers were in a terrible polluted state, yet in recent times their health is much improved. Salmon have returned and so on. Much of the bad press is being boosted by the act of measuring the harm, which was being committed anyway,

    Its also not easy to stop, without huge scale investment and projects (see London's new system for example). Simply the regulators need to increase the pressure to get this done, and the time scales need to be as fast as possible.

    But it would be nice to have some sense of perspective about whats really going on.
    ITV was showing bar charts explaining that non-storm outputs to surface waters increased significantly.

    The water companies were privatised debt -free, on the whole they now hold substantial debt. Last year water company dividends to shareholders exceeded £1B.

    Maybe you have a march on me and you are right, and they are doing a great job. Regulators like the EA/NRW/ SEPA/NIEA, all of whom I deal with, and all of whom are underfunded and useless, each take water companies through the courts. Substantial fines are levied, and then the water companies continue as before, and so the circle continues. So long as profits vastly outstrip fines who cares?
    Outputs to surface waters increased significantly from when to when? Not from pre-privatisation to post-privatisation I'm pretty sure

    So long as profits vastly outstrip fines who cares?

    That's the entire frigging point of privatisation and why privatisation has worked!

    When the water companies were owned by the Treasury, the idea of fines or anything like it was utterly meaningless - and water standards were atrocious as a result.

    Via privatisation, fines became a cost of doing business. If the water firms do badly, and get fined a lot, then that hurts their profits. So they have a financial interest in ensuring profits exceed fines, a motive that didn't exist pre-privatsation.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,807
    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    This is probably the most important news today. Major headache for all parties.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/may/18/obese-patients-cost-nhs-twice-much-healthy-weight-study

    I'd be interested to know whether obesity is slightly lower now than it was just before the pandemic.
    Anecdotally I think it went as follows:

    Lockdown 1: everyone in the sun out and about lost weight, like racing snakes, all good.
    Lockdown 2+: everyone thought fuck it and piled on the pounds.
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,635
    edited May 2023
    Apologies for some of the slightly garbled postings today, although I stand by the main conceptual points. I occasionally get dyslexic-type issues when extremely tired ever since childhood, and so these have also tended to resurface on PB, too, as I think I've mentioned before here , around a couple of times a year.

    Wishing a good May afternoon to all !
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,977
    tlg86 said:

    Ouch!

    https://order-order.com/2023/05/18/carole-cadwalladr-ordered-to-pay-over-1-million-in-banks-legal-costs/

    The Court of Appeal has ordered that Carole Cadwalladr must pay 60% of Arron Banks’ legal fees to the tune of £1,242,634.

    Lol
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,425
    This hasn't aged well...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/commentisfree/2022/jun/19/arron-banks-set-out-to-crush-me-in-court-instead-my-quest-for-the-facts-was-vindicated

    Arron Banks almost crushed me in court. Instead, my quest for the facts was vindicated
  • Options
    FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,054
    edited May 2023
    Pulpstar said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    algarkirk said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I am on the ugliest road in the world. I have been driving on this road for 3 and a half hours and I have five more hours to go



    You are not on the ugliest road in the world. We have gone over this on PB.

    The ugliest road in the world is the A47 heading towards King's Lynn.
    Ok the 2nd ugliest road after the A47 towards Kings Lynn

    We’re just passing a pretty little village

    To be honest, I would much rather be in East Anglia.
    I quite like the flat landscapes of the Fens. I like to be able to stop in a layby, scramble up a drainage ditch and be able to see 15 different church steeples and a windmill. I love the huge breezy blue skies. Delightful.
    Just off the A47 approaching King's Lynn is Walpole St Peter, thought by some (me included) to be the finest parish church in England.

    It is quite similar to the church I grew up in the shadow of, St. Mary's in Tickhill, S. Yorks - another perpendicular parish classic.
    Yes, that is a classic. I often stop in the churchyard there on bike rides.

    I saw the castle was up for sale recently for a mere million or two. A castle in Tickhill or a flat in London? The housing market is bonkers.
    Rumour has it a well known rock guitarist has bought it (or rather, bought the leasehold).
    The problem with such properties, is that they cost a fortune to keep going.

    Hence the endless cycle of people buying French minor chateau, then selling them when they realise the yearly upkeep is about the same as the initial price....
    True, but it's not really a castle - it's big house in the grounds of a ruined castle. It's also in a good state of repair having been in pretty much constant occupation for at least the last hundred years or so.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tickhill_Castle
    Tickhill Castle is open only one day a year on the second Sunday of each June between the hours of 2.00 to 4.00 p.m.

    I'll have to try and remember to pay a visit seeing as I live 3 miles south of the castle.
    Yes, it is quite interesting and worth looking around if you can remember the date. It is also a local nature reserve.


  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,080
    tlg86 said:

    Ouch!

    https://order-order.com/2023/05/18/carole-cadwalladr-ordered-to-pay-over-1-million-in-banks-legal-costs/

    The Court of Appeal has ordered that Carole Cadwalladr must pay 60% of Arron Banks’ legal fees to the tune of £1,242,634.

    She'll have to start crowdfunding...
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,888
    Well I never. Who would’ve known etc


    “A former bodyguard of Prince Harry has said the Sussexes’ security should have been “properly stage-managed” as accounts of the “near catastrophic” New York car chase on Tuesday evening cast doubts on the couple’s public statement.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/18/harry-meghan-security-should-properly-stage-managed


    This is really quite sad. Harry is diminishing himself daily. Now faking accounts of car chases that mimic his mother’s death - and for what? Publicity? He has all the publicity he needs. Someone needs to stop him
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,959
    Leon said:

    Well I never. Who would’ve known etc


    “A former bodyguard of Prince Harry has said the Sussexes’ security should have been “properly stage-managed” as accounts of the “near catastrophic” New York car chase on Tuesday evening cast doubts on the couple’s public statement.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/18/harry-meghan-security-should-properly-stage-managed


    This is really quite sad. Harry is diminishing himself daily. Now faking accounts of car chases that mimic his mother’s death - and for what? Publicity? He has all the publicity he needs. Someone needs to stop him

    Hopefully we'll never have King Harry!
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,080
    edited May 2023
    Leon said:

    Well I never. Who would’ve known etc


    “A former bodyguard of Prince Harry has said the Sussexes’ security should have been “properly stage-managed” as accounts of the “near catastrophic” New York car chase on Tuesday evening cast doubts on the couple’s public statement.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/18/harry-meghan-security-should-properly-stage-managed


    This is really quite sad. Harry is diminishing himself daily. Now faking accounts of car chases that mimic his mother’s death - and for what? Publicity? He has all the publicity he needs. Someone needs to stop him

    I was in NYC at the end of last year and you'd have more chance of a "chase" on foot than you would in a cab in downtown Manhattan! 😂
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,179
    Come on you Greens!

    Painswick and Upton (Stroud) council by-election result:

    GRN: 45.9% (+11.9)
    CON: 32.1% (-10.3)
    LDEM: 15.0% (+15.0)
    LAB: 7.1% (-16.6)

    Votes cast: 2,546

    Green GAIN from Conservative.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,977
    GIN1138 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Ouch!

    https://order-order.com/2023/05/18/carole-cadwalladr-ordered-to-pay-over-1-million-in-banks-legal-costs/

    The Court of Appeal has ordered that Carole Cadwalladr must pay 60% of Arron Banks’ legal fees to the tune of £1,242,634.

    She'll have to start crowdfunding...
    Won’t the contributors to her previous crowdfund be liable for any costs if she cannot raise the full amount ?
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 28,147
    Leon said:

    I just managed to buy wine in a provincial Egyptian town. It’s like scoring heroin in Dorset. Someone knows of “somewhere” that maybe sells liquor and then it doesn’t exist but then there’s a guy who gives you a wink and says “go there” in a whisper and it’s some weird hotel with a bar hidden in a corner of a dark lobby and one guy says “no bottles! No bottles!” Coz he doesn’t approve but the other guys tell him to fuck off coz they want the business. And thus I have bought two bottles of Egyptian red wine

    Do most hotels in Egypt serve alcoholic drinks?
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,604
    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    I just managed to buy wine in a provincial Egyptian town. It’s like scoring heroin in Dorset. Someone knows of “somewhere” that maybe sells liquor and then it doesn’t exist but then there’s a guy who gives you a wink and says “go there” in a whisper and it’s some weird hotel with a bar hidden in a corner of a dark lobby and one guy says “no bottles! No bottles!” Coz he doesn’t approve but the other guys tell him to fuck off coz they want the business. And thus I have bought two bottles of Egyptian red wine

    Welcome to the Middle East!
    I haven't been to many countries at all in the middle east but Morocco I think fulfils many of the criteria of more enlightened regime and environment. I was actually in Morocco on 9/11. Staying at, wait for it, "Les Deux Tours".

    (One for Leon)



    The next day in the papers the King made a statement saying they (Morocco) didn't hate anyone and rejected the premise behind the attacks.
    A few decades ago, my ex was staying in a hotel somewhere (I think Thailand) with her family. They suddenly realised that the atmosphere in the hotel had changed, and there were suddenly a lot of armed people walking about. It turned out that not only was there a coup attempt on, but some of the leaders were using the hotel as a base...

    Apparently the guests were very well treated, as if they knew that harming foreign tourists would not be good PR...
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 48,888
    edited May 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    I just managed to buy wine in a provincial Egyptian town. It’s like scoring heroin in Dorset. Someone knows of “somewhere” that maybe sells liquor and then it doesn’t exist but then there’s a guy who gives you a wink and says “go there” in a whisper and it’s some weird hotel with a bar hidden in a corner of a dark lobby and one guy says “no bottles! No bottles!” Coz he doesn’t approve but the other guys tell him to fuck off coz they want the business. And thus I have bought two bottles of Egyptian red wine

    Do most hotels in Egypt serve alcoholic drinks?
    Almost anywhere that wants foreign tourists - yes

    But a fair few smaller hotels - no. And lots of restaurants are entirely dry. Anywhere outside the main tourist areas will be dry
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,495
    TOPPING said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Eabhal said:

    This is probably the most important news today. Major headache for all parties.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/may/18/obese-patients-cost-nhs-twice-much-healthy-weight-study

    I'd be interested to know whether obesity is slightly lower now than it was just before the pandemic.
    Anecdotally I think it went as follows:

    Lockdown 1: everyone in the sun out and about lost weight, like racing snakes, all good.
    Lockdown 2+: everyone thought fuck it and piled on the pounds.
    Lockdown 1 was in a warm Spring. Lockdown 2 was in the depths of winter. That turkey wouldn't eat itself.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,751

    Apologies for some of the slightly garbled postings today, although I stand by the main conceptual points. I occasionally get dyslexic-type issues when extremely tired ever since childhood, and so these have also tended to resurface on PB, too, as I think I've mentioned before here , around a couple of times a year.

    Wishing a good May afternoon to all !

    Couple of times a year garbled postings is pretty good by PB standards. The average is way higher than that. 🙂
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,136
    edited May 2023
    Taz said:

    GIN1138 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Ouch!

    https://order-order.com/2023/05/18/carole-cadwalladr-ordered-to-pay-over-1-million-in-banks-legal-costs/

    The Court of Appeal has ordered that Carole Cadwalladr must pay 60% of Arron Banks’ legal fees to the tune of £1,242,634.

    She'll have to start crowdfunding...
    Won’t the contributors to her previous crowdfund be liable for any costs if she cannot raise the full amount ?
    Why would they ?

    Donating to a crowdfunder doesn't confer future liability, or any liability at all.

    Personally I think it's disappointing UK courts don't have a NY Times vs Sullivan type ruling to protect free speech.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,835

    ...

    I see Damian Green is on TV relaying fond memories of swimming in filth as a child.

    Possibly explains his alleged porn habits.

    The Tories are not doing well explaining their point on this.

    I believe that there are huge problems with our rivers and the sea and that we should aim for zero overflow of sewage into them.

    However I also believe that one of the reasons for this being an issue is the recording of ALL such incidents. They have always happened. Historically many of our rivers were in a terrible polluted state, yet in recent times their health is much improved. Salmon have returned and so on. Much of the bad press is being boosted by the act of measuring the harm, which was being committed anyway,

    Its also not easy to stop, without huge scale investment and projects (see London's new system for example). Simply the regulators need to increase the pressure to get this done, and the time scales need to be as fast as possible.

    But it would be nice to have some sense of perspective about whats really going on.
    ITV was showing bar charts explaining that non-storm outputs to surface waters increased significantly.

    The water companies were privatised debt -free, on the whole they now hold substantial debt. Last year water company dividends to shareholders exceeded £1B.

    Maybe you have a march on me and you are right, and they are doing a great job. Regulators like the EA/NRW/ SEPA/NIEA, all of whom I deal with, and all of whom are underfunded and useless, each take water companies through the courts. Substantial fines are levied, and then the water companies continue as before, and so the circle continues. So long as profits vastly outstrip fines who cares?
    Any idea of the dates for the data on the graph or its source? Not suggesting it may not be accurate, but as the home of Philip Schofield, some skepticism is essential.
    "Maybe you have a march on me and you are right, and they are doing a great job" is not what I was saying. I am not saying that they are doing a great job, merely that the increase in reporting has skewed perceptions about what is happening now compared with previously. Its a bit like grooming gangs. Huge interest now, lots of reporting, wasn't so much reporting a few years ago. It was still going on though.
  • Options
    tlg86 said:

    This hasn't aged well...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/commentisfree/2022/jun/19/arron-banks-set-out-to-crush-me-in-court-instead-my-quest-for-the-facts-was-vindicated

    Arron Banks almost crushed me in court. Instead, my quest for the facts was vindicated

    Its been an exceptionally bizarre court saga.

    Not only has it been Alien vs Predator played out in the courtroom, but the first case seemed to find against her in all sorts of manners of fact and law, only to end with what seemed to be a judgment that nobody would have taken her seriously, so no harm was done aka the Alex Jones defence.

    Which she inevitably used immediately as proof that she was vindicated, so should be taken seriously. Which inevitably has now been overturned on appeal.

    All very odd. Maybe our lawyers here can better understand it, but I don't.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,835
    Apropos of nothing, just seen the 'awful' SATS questions that caused so much fuss. Cannot see the issue. Any good test will push all those being tested to their limit, that's the point.
    See for yourselves:

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/education-65624697
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,420

    One of my ancestors left Tickhill for NZ to fight in the Land Wars.

    Wasn't expecting so much Tickhill chat today, but there we go.

    Nick Fletcher - the Don Valley MP floundering on WATO earlier - has his constituency office there.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,835

    tlg86 said:

    This hasn't aged well...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/commentisfree/2022/jun/19/arron-banks-set-out-to-crush-me-in-court-instead-my-quest-for-the-facts-was-vindicated

    Arron Banks almost crushed me in court. Instead, my quest for the facts was vindicated

    Its been an exceptionally bizarre court saga.

    Not only has it been Alien vs Predator played out in the courtroom, but the first case seemed to find against her in all sorts of manners of fact and law, only to end with what seemed to be a judgment that nobody would have taken her seriously, so no harm was done aka the Alex Jones defence.

    Which she inevitably used immediately as proof that she was vindicated, so should be taken seriously. Which inevitably has now been overturned on appeal.

    All very odd. Maybe our lawyers here can better understand it, but I don't.
    It seems many who rather dislike Brexit and Banks think the sun shines out of her rear, and that she is a victim in all this. Other may have a different view based on truth, lies and honest journalism.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,977
    Pulpstar said:

    Taz said:

    GIN1138 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Ouch!

    https://order-order.com/2023/05/18/carole-cadwalladr-ordered-to-pay-over-1-million-in-banks-legal-costs/

    The Court of Appeal has ordered that Carole Cadwalladr must pay 60% of Arron Banks’ legal fees to the tune of £1,242,634.

    She'll have to start crowdfunding...
    Won’t the contributors to her previous crowdfund be liable for any costs if she cannot raise the full amount ?
    Why would they ?

    Donating to a crowdfunder doesn't confer future liability, or any liability at all.

    Personally I think it's disappointing UK courts don't have a NY Times vs Sullivan type ruling to protect free speech.
    I wouldn’t know, hence the question mark. Some people on social media, including Banks, are claiming they are.

    Cadwalladr defamed Banks. Free speech is fine but that should not extend to defamatory statements. That she had to retract on such statement during the libel trial was telling and Banks gave her the chance to withdraw her statement and she didn’t.

    She’s not the victim and this is not an assault on journalism.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,620

    Apropos of nothing, just seen the 'awful' SATS questions that caused so much fuss. Cannot see the issue. Any good test will push all those being tested to their limit, that's the point.
    See for yourselves:

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/education-65624697

    It's ridiculous that we assume that children in year 6 are able to read. Can they not watch a TikTok or something else more appropriate to life as a teenager in the 21st century?
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,788
    @Chris

    Your crack at 12.16pm made me roar out loud with laughter!

    I was in Cromer recently, and although it isn't quite that bad.....

    Thank you. :smiley:
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,226
    tlg86 said:

    Ouch!

    https://order-order.com/2023/05/18/carole-cadwalladr-ordered-to-pay-over-1-million-in-banks-legal-costs/

    The Court of Appeal has ordered that Carole Cadwalladr must pay 60% of Arron Banks’ legal fees to the tune of £1,242,634.

    She'll have her own costs to pay, 100% of them, on top of that.
  • Options
    Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,591
    On population growth in the US: I think it is pretty well established that -- on the average -- American women want more children than they are having:
    https://ifstudies.org/blog/how-many-kids-do-women-want#:~:text=That personal ideal may still,between two and three kids.
    "That personal ideal may still be biased for various reasons, but the point is that no matter how you cut the data, every source we have reveals that women, on average, desire between two and three kids."

    Is the same true for the UK? And are there significant differences in different parts of the UK?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,956

    .

    ...

    I see Damian Green is on TV relaying fond memories of swimming in filth as a child.

    Possibly explains his alleged porn habits.

    The Tories are not doing well explaining their point on this.

    I believe that there are huge problems with our rivers and the sea and that we should aim for zero overflow of sewage into them.

    However I also believe that one of the reasons for this being an issue is the recording of ALL such incidents. They have always happened. Historically many of our rivers were in a terrible polluted state, yet in recent times their health is much improved. Salmon have returned and so on. Much of the bad press is being boosted by the act of measuring the harm, which was being committed anyway,

    Its also not easy to stop, without huge scale investment and projects (see London's new system for example). Simply the regulators need to increase the pressure to get this done, and the time scales need to be as fast as possible.

    But it would be nice to have some sense of perspective about whats really going on.
    ITV was showing bar charts explaining that non-storm outputs to surface waters increased significantly.

    The water companies were privatised debt -free, on the whole they now hold substantial debt. Last year water company dividends to shareholders exceeded £1B.

    Maybe you have a march on me and you are right, and they are doing a great job. Regulators like the EA/NRW/ SEPA/NIEA, all of whom I deal with, and all of whom are underfunded and useless, each take water companies through the courts. Substantial fines are levied, and then the water companies continue as before, and so the circle continues. So long as profits vastly outstrip fines who cares?
    Outputs to surface waters increased significantly from when to when? Not from pre-privatisation to post-privatisation I'm pretty sure

    So long as profits vastly outstrip fines who cares?

    That's the entire frigging point of privatisation and why privatisation has worked!

    When the water companies were owned by the Treasury, the idea of fines or anything like it was utterly meaningless - and water standards were atrocious as a result.

    Via privatisation, fines became a cost of doing business. If the water firms do badly, and get fined a lot, then that hurts their profits. So they have a financial interest in ensuring profits exceed fines, a motive that didn't exist pre-privatsation.
    2016 to 2022

    But if polluting surface waters saves substantially more than the fines imposed, the fines are worth taking the hit, time after time.

    I have relevant experience in dealing with waste and water regulators, but I bow to your greater knowledge of everything.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,956
    edited May 2023

    ...

    I see Damian Green is on TV relaying fond memories of swimming in filth as a child.

    Possibly explains his alleged porn habits.

    The Tories are not doing well explaining their point on this.

    I believe that there are huge problems with our rivers and the sea and that we should aim for zero overflow of sewage into them.

    However I also believe that one of the reasons for this being an issue is the recording of ALL such incidents. They have always happened. Historically many of our rivers were in a terrible polluted state, yet in recent times their health is much improved. Salmon have returned and so on. Much of the bad press is being boosted by the act of measuring the harm, which was being committed anyway,

    Its also not easy to stop, without huge scale investment and projects (see London's new system for example). Simply the regulators need to increase the pressure to get this done, and the time scales need to be as fast as possible.

    But it would be nice to have some sense of perspective about whats really going on.
    ITV was showing bar charts explaining that non-storm outputs to surface waters increased significantly.

    The water companies were privatised debt -free, on the whole they now hold substantial debt. Last year water company dividends to shareholders exceeded £1B.

    Maybe you have a march on me and you are right, and they are doing a great job. Regulators like the EA/NRW/ SEPA/NIEA, all of whom I deal with, and all of whom are underfunded and useless, each take water companies through the courts. Substantial fines are levied, and then the water companies continue as before, and so the circle continues. So long as profits vastly outstrip fines who cares?
    Any idea of the dates for the data on the graph or its source? Not suggesting it may not be accurate, but as the home of Philip Schofield, some skepticism is essential.
    "Maybe you have a march on me and you are right, and they are doing a great job" is not what I was saying. I am not saying that they are doing a great job, merely that the increase in reporting has skewed perceptions about what is happening now compared with previously. Its a bit like grooming gangs. Huge interest now, lots of reporting, wasn't so much reporting a few years ago. It was still going on though.
    From 2016, I believe to 2022.

    This was Pesto. So scrupulously accurate statistics.
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 19,209
    edited May 2023
    Taz said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Taz said:

    GIN1138 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Ouch!

    https://order-order.com/2023/05/18/carole-cadwalladr-ordered-to-pay-over-1-million-in-banks-legal-costs/

    The Court of Appeal has ordered that Carole Cadwalladr must pay 60% of Arron Banks’ legal fees to the tune of £1,242,634.

    She'll have to start crowdfunding...
    Won’t the contributors to her previous crowdfund be liable for any costs if she cannot raise the full amount ?
    Why would they ?

    Donating to a crowdfunder doesn't confer future liability, or any liability at all.

    Personally I think it's disappointing UK courts don't have a NY Times vs Sullivan type ruling to protect free speech.
    I wouldn’t know, hence the question mark. Some people on social media, including Banks, are claiming they are.

    Cadwalladr defamed Banks. Free speech is fine but that should not extend to defamatory statements. That she had to retract on such statement during the libel trial was telling and Banks gave her the chance to withdraw her statement and she didn’t.

    She’s not the victim and this is not an assault on journalism.
    Also as far as I'm aware NY Times vs Sullivan wouldn't apply to this, Banks is not a public official.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 25,240
    edited May 2023

    Apropos of nothing, just seen the 'awful' SATS questions that caused so much fuss. Cannot see the issue. Any good test will push all those being tested to their limit, that's the point.
    See for yourselves:

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/education-65624697

    Is that the point? The driving test does not, to take one example. Are SATS test designed to measure more than normal progress?

    As regards the test as shown on that site, I think we'd all pass but the BBC has helpfully drawn attention to the relevant parts of the text so we do not have to plough through a whole bunch of distractions.

    The fact that there has been a big fuss does suggest this was harder than expected, and thus harder than in previous years.

    As an aside, why America?

    ETA has anyone suggested the SATS fuss is got up by The Blob in response to Ministers patting themselves on the back over the success of their phonics programme?
  • Options

    ...

    I see Damian Green is on TV relaying fond memories of swimming in filth as a child.

    Possibly explains his alleged porn habits.

    The Tories are not doing well explaining their point on this.

    I believe that there are huge problems with our rivers and the sea and that we should aim for zero overflow of sewage into them.

    However I also believe that one of the reasons for this being an issue is the recording of ALL such incidents. They have always happened. Historically many of our rivers were in a terrible polluted state, yet in recent times their health is much improved. Salmon have returned and so on. Much of the bad press is being boosted by the act of measuring the harm, which was being committed anyway,

    Its also not easy to stop, without huge scale investment and projects (see London's new system for example). Simply the regulators need to increase the pressure to get this done, and the time scales need to be as fast as possible.

    But it would be nice to have some sense of perspective about whats really going on.
    ITV was showing bar charts explaining that non-storm outputs to surface waters increased significantly.

    The water companies were privatised debt -free, on the whole they now hold substantial debt. Last year water company dividends to shareholders exceeded £1B.

    Maybe you have a march on me and you are right, and they are doing a great job. Regulators like the EA/NRW/ SEPA/NIEA, all of whom I deal with, and all of whom are underfunded and useless, each take water companies through the courts. Substantial fines are levied, and then the water companies continue as before, and so the circle continues. So long as profits vastly outstrip fines who cares?
    Any idea of the dates for the data on the graph or its source? Not suggesting it may not be accurate, but as the home of Philip Schofield, some skepticism is essential.
    "Maybe you have a march on me and you are right, and they are doing a great job" is not what I was saying. I am not saying that they are doing a great job, merely that the increase in reporting has skewed perceptions about what is happening now compared with previously. Its a bit like grooming gangs. Huge interest now, lots of reporting, wasn't so much reporting a few years ago. It was still going on though.
    From 2016, I believe to 2022.

    This was Pesto. So scrupulously accurate statistics.
    So not comparing against pre-privatisation then?

    That'd show totally different figures.
  • Options
    Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,591
    On topic: One declared Republican candidate is taking on Trump directly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asa_Hutchinson

    He has a good claim to be the most qualified candidate:
    "William Asa Hutchinson II (/ˈeɪsə/, AY-sə; born December 3, 1950) is an American attorney, businessman, and politician who served as the 46th governor of Arkansas from 2015 to 2023. A member of the Republican Party, he previously served as a U.S. attorney, U.S. Congressman, and in two roles in the George W. Bush administration."

    And he has received close to zero national coverage. (There are times when, though I try not to, that I despise our national media.)
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,879

    On population growth in the US: I think it is pretty well established that -- on the average -- American women want more children than they are having:
    https://ifstudies.org/blog/how-many-kids-do-women-want#:~:text=That personal ideal may still,between two and three kids.
    "That personal ideal may still be biased for various reasons, but the point is that no matter how you cut the data, every source we have reveals that women, on average, desire between two and three kids."

    Is the same true for the UK? And are there significant differences in different parts of the UK?

    I can't remember where, but I remember reading something very similar about the UK - adults want 2.3 children but actually have 1.6.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,835
    Sean_F said:

    tlg86 said:

    Ouch!

    https://order-order.com/2023/05/18/carole-cadwalladr-ordered-to-pay-over-1-million-in-banks-legal-costs/

    The Court of Appeal has ordered that Carole Cadwalladr must pay 60% of Arron Banks’ legal fees to the tune of £1,242,634.

    She'll have her own costs to pay, 100% of them, on top of that.
    How odd - I was under the impression that she had won and been vindicated... (At least that's what her fans on Twitter think!)
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,995
    Eabhal said:

    This is probably the most important news today. Major headache for all parties.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/may/18/obese-patients-cost-nhs-twice-much-healthy-weight-study

    In terms of direct lifetime medical costs, possibly not so much more, since they die much earlier on average, and end of life care is particularly costly.
    But of course if they are unable to workforce significantly ant periods of time, owing to ill health, then the overall cost to society is indeed much greater.

    (The current figure of around 2m not working for health reasons is a record, and considerably higher even than a few years ago.)
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,452

    tlg86 said:

    This hasn't aged well...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/commentisfree/2022/jun/19/arron-banks-set-out-to-crush-me-in-court-instead-my-quest-for-the-facts-was-vindicated

    Arron Banks almost crushed me in court. Instead, my quest for the facts was vindicated

    Its been an exceptionally bizarre court saga.

    Not only has it been Alien vs Predator played out in the courtroom, but the first case seemed to find against her in all sorts of manners of fact and law, only to end with what seemed to be a judgment that nobody would have taken her seriously, so no harm was done aka the Alex Jones defence.

    Which she inevitably used immediately as proof that she was vindicated, so should be taken seriously. Which inevitably has now been overturned on appeal.

    All very odd. Maybe our lawyers here can better understand it, but I don't.
    I think all the lawyers involved are crying.

    With laughter.

    Wonder how many mortgages this has paid off?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,995

    My God, the Conservative MP for Don Valley currently on WATO is a moron!

    Surely the exclation mark would only be needed if your sentence ended in surprise?
    Just emphasis in this case - unusually moronic ?
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,910
    Cookie said:

    On population growth in the US: I think it is pretty well established that -- on the average -- American women want more children than they are having:
    https://ifstudies.org/blog/how-many-kids-do-women-want#:~:text=That personal ideal may still,between two and three kids.
    "That personal ideal may still be biased for various reasons, but the point is that no matter how you cut the data, every source we have reveals that women, on average, desire between two and three kids."

    Is the same true for the UK? And are there significant differences in different parts of the UK?

    I can't remember where, but I remember reading something very similar about the UK - adults want 2.3 children but actually have 1.6.
    Who are these weirdos who want a fraction of a child?
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,835

    Apropos of nothing, just seen the 'awful' SATS questions that caused so much fuss. Cannot see the issue. Any good test will push all those being tested to their limit, that's the point.
    See for yourselves:

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/education-65624697

    Is that the point? The driving test does not, to take one example. Are SATS test designed to measure more than normal progress?

    As regards the test as shown on that site, I think we'd all pass but the BBC has helpfully drawn attention to the relevant parts of the text so we do not have to plough through a whole bunch of distractions.

    The fact that there has been a big fuss does suggest this was harder than expected, and thus harder than in previous years.

    As an aside, why America?

    ETA has anyone suggested the SATS fuss is got up by The Blob in response to Ministers patting themselves on the back over the success of their phonics programme?
    These are at the stretch end of the test. When setting exams etc there will be an easy bit, a harder bit and then the toughest at the end. Designed to sort out where the students are at, not that they pass or fail like a driving test. The driving test is about ensuring competent and safe to drive, so achieving enough to pass. SATS is not the same,
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,441

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Point taken on the German reunification issue, which was not included in the original stats page.

    However, looking up, there's something rather interesting, which indicates overall that the major population centres ( in Western Germany and Berlin ) have actually had a very similar level of immigration to the UK over the last fifty years, but with wages and water standards remaining much higher. About 3 million have immigrated from Eastern Germany to those population centres over the last 30 years, which together with the non-Germans, altogether brings up a very similar figure for rise in the population to the UK.

    Are you on ketamine?
    I've never tried Ketamine, only some mushrooms very briefly, in the 1980's.

    The main German population centres overall have had the same kind of rises as the UK. Obviously intra-country immigration is not the same as external immigration because stresses are spread out; but you'd still expect it to affect the entirety of the rest of the country disproportionately ; and it's also only about 2-3 million of the 11 million figure.
    You seem to be living in a parallel universe.

    Berlin population
    2000: 3.387 mn
    2019: 3.645 mn

    London population
    2000: 7.195 mn
    2019: 8.982 mn

    How is the main German population centres growth remotely the same kind of rises as in the UK? Its just a matter of fact not true.

    Please quote any German centres figures and compare them with comparable British figures. The facts say otherwise.
    The East of Germany seems to have been declining in population since the 1950's.

    The West of Germany experienced an immigration fuelled rise of about 11 million between 1950 and 1989, with about 2 million already being from East Germany. From what I can see, we in the UK experienced a rise of only half that between about 1950 and 1990, of about 9 million. Since then, the rises between both countries seem to be about the same, and if the rural parts of the East are still emptying out, one would have to assume that they're also still leaving to concentrate and put pressure on the big, resource-intensive population centres of the West.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1054199/population-of-east-and-west-germany/#:~:text=Because of this difference, West,16.4 million during this time.
    Apologies, I do need a coffee today - 9 million is ofcourse not half of 11 million ! That's unforunately been combined with the fact that the figures and graph pages for West Germany, and Germany overall, are difficult to keep track of, and separately plot.

    However, that doesn't affect the overall point ; Germany has experienced similar changes in population, in fact faster for many years, and retained both better water standards and wages. And, as Malmesbury mentioned below, it's also about political will, once you know you have a higher population to service. Do we simply want to plan, fund and invest for this properly, or not ?
    The best time to admit defeat in this argument was half an hour ago when you completely forgot about German unification. The second best time is now
    Mais non Leon, because the overall point stands.

    Germany - and other countries - have experienced similar strains to us, but have managed them differently. There's only a god-given law that immigration has to result in poorer services if one has a long history of not investing in and planning for these things properly.
    It requires the building of houses and infrastructure *BEFORE* the population increases.

    Instead we have people wanting almost unlimited minimum-wage immigration, while simultaneously objecting to a single house being built within 10 miles of themselves, and with the highest tax burden in living memory.

    Even Jacob Rees-Mogg gets it, that housing is the single biggest issue facing the country at the moment. He got a massive round of applause on Question Time for saying just that.
    But to return to the original point, these things are not just about urban planning, but conscious choices about the kind of wages, economy and society we want. Why have German wages been higher for the last 60 years, when rises in population have been generally comparable over that time, as we've seen ?

    In fact, during the 1980's and before reunification, when British real wages were stagnating, the German population was still rising *faster* than the UK one, from what I've interestedly seen today.
    Population is not just about immigration, its about 4 factors: immigration, emigration, births and deaths. Germany has for decades now had a comparable immigration and death rate to the UK, but much lower birth rate, and much higher emigration rate, hence why Germany has had a stable population but the UK has had a growing one.

    Until the Thatcherite reforms of the 1980s the UK was the 'sick man of Europe' so real British wages were stagnating, yes, the UK economy picked up after Thatcher reformed the economy.

    Rises in population have not been comparable over that time. But population and wages are not related - America has had far more population growth, and far higher wages too.
    Hve they got shit in their rivers and beaches though.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,612
    Sean_F said:

    tlg86 said:

    Ouch!

    https://order-order.com/2023/05/18/carole-cadwalladr-ordered-to-pay-over-1-million-in-banks-legal-costs/

    The Court of Appeal has ordered that Carole Cadwalladr must pay 60% of Arron Banks’ legal fees to the tune of £1,242,634.

    She'll have her own costs to pay, 100% of them, on top of that.
    Don’t forget the £35,000 in damages, which she should have paid by last week.

    https://pressgazette.co.uk/media_law/arron-banks-wins-carole-cadwalladr-libel-appeal/

    Is she crowdfunding the costs, or will someone associated with the Guardian or TED pick up the bill? Must be at least £2m all in, which would leave her close to bankrupt.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,995
    I am familiar with this feeling.

    “I don’t appear to understand my society,” she said. “My hope hindered my understanding of the reality." Turkey's opposition, trailing Erdogan, reckons with the election results
    https://twitter.com/kfahim/status/1658780509256794112
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,956
    edited May 2023

    ...

    I see Damian Green is on TV relaying fond memories of swimming in filth as a child.

    Possibly explains his alleged porn habits.

    The Tories are not doing well explaining their point on this.

    I believe that there are huge problems with our rivers and the sea and that we should aim for zero overflow of sewage into them.

    However I also believe that one of the reasons for this being an issue is the recording of ALL such incidents. They have always happened. Historically many of our rivers were in a terrible polluted state, yet in recent times their health is much improved. Salmon have returned and so on. Much of the bad press is being boosted by the act of measuring the harm, which was being committed anyway,

    Its also not easy to stop, without huge scale investment and projects (see London's new system for example). Simply the regulators need to increase the pressure to get this done, and the time scales need to be as fast as possible.

    But it would be nice to have some sense of perspective about whats really going on.
    ITV was showing bar charts explaining that non-storm outputs to surface waters increased significantly.

    The water companies were privatised debt -free, on the whole they now hold substantial debt. Last year water company dividends to shareholders exceeded £1B.

    Maybe you have a march on me and you are right, and they are doing a great job. Regulators like the EA/NRW/ SEPA/NIEA, all of whom I deal with, and all of whom are underfunded and useless, each take water companies through the courts. Substantial fines are levied, and then the water companies continue as before, and so the circle continues. So long as profits vastly outstrip fines who cares?
    Any idea of the dates for the data on the graph or its source? Not suggesting it may not be accurate, but as the home of Philip Schofield, some skepticism is essential.
    "Maybe you have a march on me and you are right, and they are doing a great job" is not what I was saying. I am not saying that they are doing a great job, merely that the increase in reporting has skewed perceptions about what is happening now compared with previously. Its a bit like grooming gangs. Huge interest now, lots of reporting, wasn't so much reporting a few years ago. It was still going on though.
    From 2016, I believe to 2022.

    This was Pesto. So scrupulously accurate statistics.
    So not comparing against pre-privatisation then?

    That'd show totally different figures.
    But the situation was getting progressively and significantly worse during my time scale noted.

    Therese Coffey 's justification that the situation isn't too bad is because monitoring has only been in place since Cameron's Government. My point is year on year since monitoring pollution is getting worse

    Privatisation allowed for vast improvement in water quality for a peppercorn or free privatisation fee to take on these water companies. They haven't obliged.

    If you go back to the 1970s we were pumping all sorts of industrial liquid wastes in water courses, but pre-privatisation water quality got better. Surface waters also improved through directives from the EU.

    It was notable from the stats that we are pumping more s*** into water courses since we left the EU in 2020. I haven't made the link, but you can if you want to.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,226
    Sandpit said:

    Sean_F said:

    tlg86 said:

    Ouch!

    https://order-order.com/2023/05/18/carole-cadwalladr-ordered-to-pay-over-1-million-in-banks-legal-costs/

    The Court of Appeal has ordered that Carole Cadwalladr must pay 60% of Arron Banks’ legal fees to the tune of £1,242,634.

    She'll have her own costs to pay, 100% of them, on top of that.
    Don’t forget the £35,000 in damages, which she should have paid by last week.

    https://pressgazette.co.uk/media_law/arron-banks-wins-carole-cadwalladr-libel-appeal/

    Is she crowdfunding the costs, or will someone associated with the Guardian or TED pick up the bill? Must be at least £2m all in, which would leave her close to bankrupt.
    Maybe Jolyon can organise an appeal to the Supreme Court.
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,879

    Cookie said:

    On population growth in the US: I think it is pretty well established that -- on the average -- American women want more children than they are having:
    https://ifstudies.org/blog/how-many-kids-do-women-want#:~:text=That personal ideal may still,between two and three kids.
    "That personal ideal may still be biased for various reasons, but the point is that no matter how you cut the data, every source we have reveals that women, on average, desire between two and three kids."

    Is the same true for the UK? And are there significant differences in different parts of the UK?

    I can't remember where, but I remember reading something very similar about the UK - adults want 2.3 children but actually have 1.6.
    Who are these weirdos who want a fraction of a child?
    My third child is very very small.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,612
    Question for any media or legal types here. Do freelance journalists generally have professional indemnity insurance, through the NUJ or off their own back? Would such insurance cover the distinction, between reporting the news and commentating on the people involved in the news?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,136
    Sandpit said:

    Sean_F said:

    tlg86 said:

    Ouch!

    https://order-order.com/2023/05/18/carole-cadwalladr-ordered-to-pay-over-1-million-in-banks-legal-costs/

    The Court of Appeal has ordered that Carole Cadwalladr must pay 60% of Arron Banks’ legal fees to the tune of £1,242,634.

    She'll have her own costs to pay, 100% of them, on top of that.
    Don’t forget the £35,000 in damages, which she should have paid by last week.

    https://pressgazette.co.uk/media_law/arron-banks-wins-carole-cadwalladr-libel-appeal/

    Is she crowdfunding the costs, or will someone associated with the Guardian or TED pick up the bill? Must be at least £2m all in, which would leave her close to bankrupt.
    There's a shortfall on the current crowdfunder
    https://www.gofundme.com/f/democracy-the-fight-back
  • Options
    LennonLennon Posts: 1,753
    Sandpit said:

    Question for any media or legal types here. Do freelance journalists generally have professional indemnity insurance, through the NUJ or off their own back? Would such insurance cover the distinction, between reporting the news and commentating on the people involved in the news?

    Traditionally I wouldn't expect freelance journalists to need indemnity insurance - if you are writing for various different publications, any defamation issues would all be the issue of the respective editor for whichever publication has the issue. I suspect that people haven't started to recognise the need to take out insurance for being idiots on Twitter...
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,136

    Taz said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Taz said:

    GIN1138 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Ouch!

    https://order-order.com/2023/05/18/carole-cadwalladr-ordered-to-pay-over-1-million-in-banks-legal-costs/

    The Court of Appeal has ordered that Carole Cadwalladr must pay 60% of Arron Banks’ legal fees to the tune of £1,242,634.

    She'll have to start crowdfunding...
    Won’t the contributors to her previous crowdfund be liable for any costs if she cannot raise the full amount ?
    Why would they ?

    Donating to a crowdfunder doesn't confer future liability, or any liability at all.

    Personally I think it's disappointing UK courts don't have a NY Times vs Sullivan type ruling to protect free speech.
    I wouldn’t know, hence the question mark. Some people on social media, including Banks, are claiming they are.

    Cadwalladr defamed Banks. Free speech is fine but that should not extend to defamatory statements. That she had to retract on such statement during the libel trial was telling and Banks gave her the chance to withdraw her statement and she didn’t.

    She’s not the victim and this is not an assault on journalism.
    Also as far as I'm aware NY Times vs Sullivan wouldn't apply to this, Banks is not a public official.
    "Public official" is fairly loose in US law and has been expanded beyond actual public figures for the sake of their speech/libel law - Depp had to prove to the higher standard (Actual malice) vs Heard - which he did !
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    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,034
    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Point taken on the German reunification issue, which was not included in the original stats page.

    However, looking up, there's something rather interesting, which indicates overall that the major population centres ( in Western Germany and Berlin ) have actually had a very similar level of immigration to the UK over the last fifty years, but with wages and water standards remaining much higher. About 3 million have immigrated from Eastern Germany to those population centres over the last 30 years, which together with the non-Germans, altogether brings up a very similar figure for rise in the population to the UK.

    Are you on ketamine?
    I've never tried Ketamine, only some mushrooms very briefly, in the 1980's.

    The main German population centres overall have had the same kind of rises as the UK. Obviously intra-country immigration is not the same as external immigration because stresses are spread out; but you'd still expect it to affect the entirety of the rest of the country disproportionately ; and it's also only about 2-3 million of the 11 million figure.
    You seem to be living in a parallel universe.

    Berlin population
    2000: 3.387 mn
    2019: 3.645 mn

    London population
    2000: 7.195 mn
    2019: 8.982 mn

    How is the main German population centres growth remotely the same kind of rises as in the UK? Its just a matter of fact not true.

    Please quote any German centres figures and compare them with comparable British figures. The facts say otherwise.
    The East of Germany seems to have been declining in population since the 1950's.

    The West of Germany experienced an immigration fuelled rise of about 11 million between 1950 and 1989, with about 2 million already being from East Germany. From what I can see, we in the UK experienced a rise of only half that between about 1950 and 1990, of about 9 million. Since then, the rises between both countries seem to be about the same, and if the rural parts of the East are still emptying out, one would have to assume that they're also still leaving to concentrate and put pressure on the big, resource-intensive population centres of the West.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1054199/population-of-east-and-west-germany/#:~:text=Because of this difference, West,16.4 million during this time.
    Apologies, I do need a coffee today - 9 million is ofcourse not half of 11 million ! That's unforunately been combined with the fact that the figures and graph pages for West Germany, and Germany overall, are difficult to keep track of, and separately plot.

    However, that doesn't affect the overall point ; Germany has experienced similar changes in population, in fact faster for many years, and retained both better water standards and wages. And, as Malmesbury mentioned below, it's also about political will, once you know you have a higher population to service. Do we simply want to plan, fund and invest for this properly, or not ?
    The best time to admit defeat in this argument was half an hour ago when you completely forgot about German unification. The second best time is now
    Mais non Leon, because the overall point stands.

    Germany - and other countries - have experienced similar strains to us, but have managed them differently. There's only a god-given law that immigration has to result in poorer services if one has a long history of not investing in and planning for these things properly.
    It requires the building of houses and infrastructure *BEFORE* the population increases.

    Instead we have people wanting almost unlimited minimum-wage immigration, while simultaneously objecting to a single house being built within 10 miles of themselves, and with the highest tax burden in living memory.

    Even Jacob Rees-Mogg gets it, that housing is the single biggest issue facing the country at the moment. He got a massive round of applause on Question Time for saying just that.
    But to return to the original point, these things are not just about urban planning, but conscious choices about the kind of wages, economy and society we want. Why have German wages been higher for the last 60 years, when rises in population have been generally comparable over that time, as we've seen ?

    In fact, during the 1980's and before reunification, when British real wages were stagnating, the German population was still rising *faster* than the UK one, from what I've interestedly seen today.
    Population is not just about immigration, its about 4 factors: immigration, emigration, births and deaths. Germany has for decades now had a comparable immigration and death rate to the UK, but much lower birth rate, and much higher emigration rate, hence why Germany has had a stable population but the UK has had a growing one.

    Until the Thatcherite reforms of the 1980s the UK was the 'sick man of Europe' so real British wages were stagnating, yes, the UK economy picked up after Thatcher reformed the economy.

    Rises in population have not been comparable over that time. But population and wages are not related - America has had far more population growth, and far higher wages too.
    Hve they got shit in their rivers and beaches though.
    They've got lead in their drinking water, which is probably worse.
  • Options
    Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 616
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    I am on the ugliest road in the world. I have been driving on this road for 3 and a half hours and I have five more hours to go



    You are not on the ugliest road in the world. We have gone over this on PB.

    The ugliest road in the world is the A47 heading towards King's Lynn.
    But not if you are heading away from Kings Lynn....
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    jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 693

    Apropos of nothing, just seen the 'awful' SATS questions that caused so much fuss. Cannot see the issue. Any good test will push all those being tested to their limit, that's the point.
    See for yourselves:

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/education-65624697

    That doesn't seem terribly challenging. Yes, there is a fairly obvious, sort of decoy, answer to each question, but it separates out the good from the really good.
    Another lesson that initial outrage often subsides when you get the full background (for people who bother to get the full background)
  • Options
    Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 616

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Is Hunt still doing that silly “power stance” thing?

    Caption this... What's happening here?

    📸 U.S. Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen, right, meets with British Finance Minister Jeremy Hunt at the G-7 Finance Ministers and Central Bank Governors' Meeting




    https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/1659157287431225344

    The power stance *might* work if he wasn't such a scrawny goof.
    That brings back memories.

    image
    And of course:

    image
    Is that really a "power stance"or is she simply straining?
    she needs to try a stool softener...
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,962
    Penddu2 said:

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Is Hunt still doing that silly “power stance” thing?

    Caption this... What's happening here?

    📸 U.S. Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen, right, meets with British Finance Minister Jeremy Hunt at the G-7 Finance Ministers and Central Bank Governors' Meeting




    https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/1659157287431225344

    The power stance *might* work if he wasn't such a scrawny goof.
    That brings back memories.

    image
    And of course:

    image
    Is that really a "power stance"or is she simply straining?
    she needs to try a stool softener...
    What is wrong with these idiots?
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,352

    tlg86 said:

    This hasn't aged well...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/commentisfree/2022/jun/19/arron-banks-set-out-to-crush-me-in-court-instead-my-quest-for-the-facts-was-vindicated

    Arron Banks almost crushed me in court. Instead, my quest for the facts was vindicated

    Its been an exceptionally bizarre court saga.

    Not only has it been Alien vs Predator played out in the courtroom, but the first case seemed to find against her in all sorts of manners of fact and law, only to end with what seemed to be a judgment that nobody would have taken her seriously, so no harm was done aka the Alex Jones defence.

    Which she inevitably used immediately as proof that she was vindicated, so should be taken seriously. Which inevitably has now been overturned on appeal.

    All very odd. Maybe our lawyers here can better understand it, but I don't.
    Lawyers? Too busy counting their money, I expect.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,879

    Apropos of nothing, just seen the 'awful' SATS questions that caused so much fuss. Cannot see the issue. Any good test will push all those being tested to their limit, that's the point.
    See for yourselves:

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/education-65624697

    That doesn't seem terribly challenging. Yes, there is a fairly obvious, sort of decoy, answer to each question, but it separates out the good from the really good.
    Another lesson that initial outrage often subsides when you get the full background (for people who bother to get the full background)
    My daughter tripped up on Question 8 - she went for crept in quietly. Squeezed in seems the obvious one, but she was put off squeezed by the picture, which showed a massive tent which you wouldn't really have had to squeeze into.
    But, we told her repeatedly, these tests are tests of the school, not of her, and the consequences of them to her are absolutely nil, and they are the same for everyone. And thus she didn't cry, she was mildly disappointed for a couple of minutes.
    The school tried very hard to get the kids to try their hardest, of course. But they also made clear it was just a test to see where they were up to, without any consequences for failure, and so really not anything to get stressed about.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,136
    Cookie said:

    Apropos of nothing, just seen the 'awful' SATS questions that caused so much fuss. Cannot see the issue. Any good test will push all those being tested to their limit, that's the point.
    See for yourselves:

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/education-65624697

    That doesn't seem terribly challenging. Yes, there is a fairly obvious, sort of decoy, answer to each question, but it separates out the good from the really good.
    Another lesson that initial outrage often subsides when you get the full background (for people who bother to get the full background)
    My daughter tripped up on Question 8 - she went for crept in quietly. Squeezed in seems the obvious one, but she was put off squeezed by the picture, which showed a massive tent which you wouldn't really have had to squeeze into.
    But, we told her repeatedly, these tests are tests of the school, not of her, and the consequences of them to her are absolutely nil, and they are the same for everyone. And thus she didn't cry, she was mildly disappointed for a couple of minutes.
    The school tried very hard to get the kids to try their hardest, of course. But they also made clear it was just a test to see where they were up to, without any consequences for failure, and so really not anything to get stressed about.
    My colleague's secondary used them for setting.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 16,041
    ..
This discussion has been closed.