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Why I’m betting that Trump won’t be the WH2024 nominee – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited May 21 in General
imageWhy I’m betting that Trump won’t be the WH2024 nominee – politicalbetting.com

As I write Donald Trump is currently rated on Betfair as having a 66% chance of being the Republican Party nominee for the 2024 White House race when he will be 78 years old. While I think he is a strong favourite I am not convinced he has a 65% chance which is how bets should be assessed.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 10,832
    edited May 18
    First 😇

    I’ll now have to think of something to say on topic?

    Um.

    Rather Trump than DeSantis. You sense Trump only does it for money it can make him, and the massaging of his ego. He doesn’t actually believe any of the rubbish he comes out with, or the Q Anon rubbish of many of his supporters. None of them believe it, Trump, Tucker, Marg Greene, Alex Jones, they are all too intelligent. It makes them money, massages their ego.

    DeSantis would do it for God.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 19,022

    First 😇

    I’ll now have to think of something to say on topic?

    Um.

    Rather Trump than DeSantis. You sense Trump only does it for money it can make him, and the massaging of his ego. He doesn’t actually believe any of the rubbish he comes out with, or the Q Anon rubbish of many of his supporters. None of them believe it, Trump, Tucker, Marg Greene, Alex Jones, they are all too intelligent. It makes them money, massages their ego.

    DeSantis would do it for God.

    We saw this when Trump was booed for telling the crowd to get vaccinated. Trouble is, if the president acts in a certain way, or stacks the Supreme Court, then whether he believes it or not is of academic interest (cf Boris and Brexit).
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 10,832
    edited May 18

    First 😇

    I’ll now have to think of something to say on topic?

    Um.

    Rather Trump than DeSantis. You sense Trump only does it for money it can make him, and the massaging of his ego. He doesn’t actually believe any of the rubbish he comes out with, or the Q Anon rubbish of many of his supporters. None of them believe it, Trump, Tucker, Marg Greene, Alex Jones, they are all too intelligent. It makes them money, massages their ego.

    DeSantis would do it for God.

    We saw this when Trump was booed for telling the crowd to get vaccinated. Trouble is, if the president acts in a certain way, or stacks the Supreme Court, then whether he believes it or not is of academic interest (cf Boris and Brexit).
    I believe everything in my first post, there’s more than enough footage of Democratic era Trump saying if he ran for President it would be as a Republican, becuase they are thick and wold buy into all his lies. Tucker too, had been caught on candid moments admitteing he doesn’t actually believe all the rubbish he comes out with. Alex Jones whole defence in court was “but that’s not me, what you see up there under the lights, that’s not me, that’s just acting.”

    This is how I would answer the header, answer that Mike is spot on in his instincts. Things are different now, in how many people may want Trump policies, but now realise he is the very last person who can actually deliver Trump policies. That’s the fact that is the final nail in Trumps political coffin. And the same for Boris in UK. Like Trump there is no come back for Boris - even if you like his policies, you now know he’s incapable of delivering what he’s promising.

    This answer is word perfect here, is it not:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhe0amOv5Lw
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,722
    OGH seems to have a thing about age of politicians - I really don't see it as being a barrier to Trump winning.

    Personally I'd take the other side of this bet. I think Trump is stronger in republican world than when he won 2016 nomination.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 4,620
    Fifth like the Tories
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 51,793

    First 😇

    I’ll now have to think of something to say on topic?

    Um.

    Rather Trump than DeSantis. You sense Trump only does it for money it can make him, and the massaging of his ego. He doesn’t actually believe any of the rubbish he comes out with, or the Q Anon rubbish of many of his supporters. None of them believe it, Trump, Tucker, Marg Greene, Alex Jones, they are all too intelligent. It makes them money, massages their ego.

    DeSantis would do it for God.

    We saw this when Trump was booed for telling the crowd to get vaccinated. Trouble is, if the president acts in a certain way, or stacks the Supreme Court, then whether he believes it or not is of academic interest (cf Boris and Brexit).
    I believe everything in my first post, there’s more than enough footage of Democratic era Trump saying if he ran for President it would be as a Republican, becuase they are thick and wold buy into all his lies. Tucker too, had been caught on candid moments admitteing he doesn’t actually believe all the rubbish he comes out with. Alex Jones whole defence in court was “but that’s not me, what you see up there under the lights, that’s not me, that’s just acting.”

    This is how I would answer the header, answer that Mike is spot on in his instincts. Things are different now, in how many people may want Trump policies, but now realise he is the very last person who can actually deliver Trump policies. That’s the fact that is the final nail in Trumps political coffin...
    That has little to do with whether he is the nominee.
    All the polling has only showed his backing among those likely to vote in primaries increasing, and his lead over everyone else is daunting.

    Note that his acolytes in the party have also changed a substantial number of large state primaries to winner takes all, which further reduces the room for another candidate to build momentum once the primaries start.

    If Tump is not to be the candidate, it unlikely to be the type of calculations that you're talking about which make the difference.

    That said, I agree with Mike.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 51,793
    edited May 18
    Water companies discover all of a sudden that they could have been spending more on their crumbling infrastructure.

    UK water companies offer apology and £10bn investment for sewage spills
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/18/uk-water-companies-offer-apology-and-10bn-investment-for-sewage-spills

    What say their apologists now ?

    I'm inclined to agree with this take.
    Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey said: “This apology and plan just don’t go far enough. For years water companies have arrogantly dismissed the public’s fears of rivers, lakes and coastlines being damaged by sewage discharges.

    “This announcement does nothing to match the billions water firms have paid out in dividends to overseas investors, or stop their CEOs being handed multimillion pound bonuses.”


  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,021
    edited May 18
    Nigelb said:

    Water companies discover all of a sudden that they could have been spending more on their crumbling infrastructure.

    UK water companies offer apology and £10bn investment for sewage spills
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/18/uk-water-companies-offer-apology-and-10bn-investment-for-sewage-spills

    What say their apologists now ?

    I'm inclined to agree with this take.
    Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey said: “This apology and plan just don’t go far enough. For years water companies have arrogantly dismissed the public’s fears of rivers, lakes and coastlines being damaged by sewage discharges.

    “This announcement does nothing to match the billions water firms have paid out in dividends to overseas investors, or stop their CEOs being handed multimillion pound bonuses.”


    Of course the water companies will offer more investment - they are allowed to earn a return on this investment, so they will actually make more money, and pay more dividends to foreign investors, than if they let the sewage flow out wherever. Davey simply doesn't seem to understand price regulation in the water industry (not surprisingly, as it is stupefyingly complicated).

    The water industry has been by far the most successful of the privatised industries in thwarting competition. It is complacent, greedy, inefficient, overly politicised and borderline corrupt because its revenues are directly in the government's gift. Typical monopolists in fact.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 51,793
    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Water companies discover all of a sudden that they could have been spending more on their crumbling infrastructure.

    UK water companies offer apology and £10bn investment for sewage spills
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/18/uk-water-companies-offer-apology-and-10bn-investment-for-sewage-spills

    What say their apologists now ?

    I'm inclined to agree with this take.
    Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey said: “This apology and plan just don’t go far enough. For years water companies have arrogantly dismissed the public’s fears of rivers, lakes and coastlines being damaged by sewage discharges.

    “This announcement does nothing to match the billions water firms have paid out in dividends to overseas investors, or stop their CEOs being handed multimillion pound bonuses.”


    Of course the water companies will offer more investment - they are allowed to earn a return on this investment, so they will actually make more money, and pay more dividends to foreign investors, than if they let the sewage flow out wherever. Davey simply doesn't seem to understand price regulation in the water industry (not surprisingly, as it is stupefyingly complicated).

    The water industry has been by far the most successful of the privatised industries in thwarting competition. It is complacent, greedy, inefficient, overly politicised and borderline corrupt because its revenues are directly in the government's gift. Typical monopolists in fact.
    He understands perfectly well, since he's calling fir tightef regulation to reduce those profits.

    This is a preemptive strike by the water companies in an effort to maintain them.
    But it does also make a nonsense of their previous protestations.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,878
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Water companies discover all of a sudden that they could have been spending more on their crumbling infrastructure.

    UK water companies offer apology and £10bn investment for sewage spills
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/18/uk-water-companies-offer-apology-and-10bn-investment-for-sewage-spills

    What say their apologists now ?

    I'm inclined to agree with this take.
    Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey said: “This apology and plan just don’t go far enough. For years water companies have arrogantly dismissed the public’s fears of rivers, lakes and coastlines being damaged by sewage discharges.

    “This announcement does nothing to match the billions water firms have paid out in dividends to overseas investors, or stop their CEOs being handed multimillion pound bonuses.”


    If we don't want "overseas investors" claiming "billions in dividends" we need to rebalance our trade deficit by reducing domestic demand and investing more. Not sure I see Ed Davey arguing for that. If we don't we have to pay rent on the assets we have sold to cover our excess expenditure. If we restrict the rent we get less for the next tranche of assets we sell. These are the facts and Ed and other politicians need to come to grips with them.
    In other words - no criticism of any commercial company can ever be justified, "because the market".
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 47,329
    On Trump my reservation is that I so want laying him to be the right move I am not confident that I can objectively judge it. If he were to win again I fear that American democracy would be in serious peril; that they would no longer be the largely reliable friend that they have been since WW2 and the world would be a much more dangerous and unpredictable place.

    It is already scary that someone with his record can gain such traction. It shows a weakness in the American demos that will be there long after he has gone. But hopefully it will be a while until we have another US politician responsible for an attack on Congress.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 47,329
    Chris said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Water companies discover all of a sudden that they could have been spending more on their crumbling infrastructure.

    UK water companies offer apology and £10bn investment for sewage spills
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/18/uk-water-companies-offer-apology-and-10bn-investment-for-sewage-spills

    What say their apologists now ?

    I'm inclined to agree with this take.
    Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey said: “This apology and plan just don’t go far enough. For years water companies have arrogantly dismissed the public’s fears of rivers, lakes and coastlines being damaged by sewage discharges.

    “This announcement does nothing to match the billions water firms have paid out in dividends to overseas investors, or stop their CEOs being handed multimillion pound bonuses.”


    If we don't want "overseas investors" claiming "billions in dividends" we need to rebalance our trade deficit by reducing domestic demand and investing more. Not sure I see Ed Davey arguing for that. If we don't we have to pay rent on the assets we have sold to cover our excess expenditure. If we restrict the rent we get less for the next tranche of assets we sell. These are the facts and Ed and other politicians need to come to grips with them.
    In other words - no criticism of any commercial company can ever be justified, "because the market".
    No, not at all. But criticism, and the restriction of profits from what you have sold have real world consequences. With windfall taxes and other interference in the market by government we make the UK a less attractive place for foreigners to invest and we need their money for as long as we overspend.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,155
    Chris said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Water companies discover all of a sudden that they could have been spending more on their crumbling infrastructure.

    UK water companies offer apology and £10bn investment for sewage spills
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/18/uk-water-companies-offer-apology-and-10bn-investment-for-sewage-spills

    What say their apologists now ?

    I'm inclined to agree with this take.
    Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey said: “This apology and plan just don’t go far enough. For years water companies have arrogantly dismissed the public’s fears of rivers, lakes and coastlines being damaged by sewage discharges.

    “This announcement does nothing to match the billions water firms have paid out in dividends to overseas investors, or stop their CEOs being handed multimillion pound bonuses.”


    If we don't want "overseas investors" claiming "billions in dividends" we need to rebalance our trade deficit by reducing domestic demand and investing more. Not sure I see Ed Davey arguing for that. If we don't we have to pay rent on the assets we have sold to cover our excess expenditure. If we restrict the rent we get less for the next tranche of assets we sell. These are the facts and Ed and other politicians need to come to grips with them.
    In other words - no criticism of any commercial company can ever be justified, "because the market".
    No, because “we are living beyond our means” and “rely on the kindness of strangers”.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 30,391
    Rishi Sunak has backed away from the Conservatives’ manifesto promise to cut immigration below 2019 levels as he appeared to blame Boris Johnson for record numbers of migrants coming to Britain.

    The prime minister insisted that the government was “in control” of immigration despite official data that will be published next week that is expected to show net migration hit another record high of about 700,000 last year.

    That would be more than two and a half times the level of net migration in 2019, which was 271,000. The Conservative Party promised in its 2019 election manifesto that “overall numbers will come down”.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jeremy-hunt-splits-from-suella-braverman-on-migrant-labour-dpt2c63bq
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,041
    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Water companies discover all of a sudden that they could have been spending more on their crumbling infrastructure.

    UK water companies offer apology and £10bn investment for sewage spills
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/18/uk-water-companies-offer-apology-and-10bn-investment-for-sewage-spills

    What say their apologists now ?

    I'm inclined to agree with this take.
    Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey said: “This apology and plan just don’t go far enough. For years water companies have arrogantly dismissed the public’s fears of rivers, lakes and coastlines being damaged by sewage discharges.

    “This announcement does nothing to match the billions water firms have paid out in dividends to overseas investors, or stop their CEOs being handed multimillion pound bonuses.”


    Of course the water companies will offer more investment - they are allowed to earn a return on this investment, so they will actually make more money, and pay more dividends to foreign investors, than if they let the sewage flow out wherever. Davey simply doesn't seem to understand price regulation in the water industry (not surprisingly, as it is stupefyingly complicated).

    The water industry has been by far the most successful of the privatised industries in thwarting competition. It is complacent, greedy, inefficient, overly politicised and borderline corrupt because its revenues are directly in the government's gift. Typical monopolists in fact.
    He understands perfectly well, since he's calling fir tightef regulation to reduce those profits.

    This is a preemptive strike by the water companies in an effort to maintain them.
    But it does also make a nonsense of their previous protestations.
    Of all the industries I have worked in the Water sector is by far one of the worst managed. Only rail is worse.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 788
    But the Daily Mail headline is NOW THE STARMER MASK SLIPS OVER BREXIT
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 20,817
    edited May 18
    Icarus said:

    But the Daily Mail headline is NOW THE STARMER MASK SLIPS OVER BREXIT
    So by renegotiating Johnson's oven ready Brexit deal which is killing our car industry he is "stealing Brexit"?

    Perhaps the Daily Mail staff have been indulging too much in cheaper Brexit beer (and sanitary products).
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,878
    DavidL said:

    Chris said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Water companies discover all of a sudden that they could have been spending more on their crumbling infrastructure.

    UK water companies offer apology and £10bn investment for sewage spills
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/18/uk-water-companies-offer-apology-and-10bn-investment-for-sewage-spills

    What say their apologists now ?

    I'm inclined to agree with this take.
    Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey said: “This apology and plan just don’t go far enough. For years water companies have arrogantly dismissed the public’s fears of rivers, lakes and coastlines being damaged by sewage discharges.

    “This announcement does nothing to match the billions water firms have paid out in dividends to overseas investors, or stop their CEOs being handed multimillion pound bonuses.”


    If we don't want "overseas investors" claiming "billions in dividends" we need to rebalance our trade deficit by reducing domestic demand and investing more. Not sure I see Ed Davey arguing for that. If we don't we have to pay rent on the assets we have sold to cover our excess expenditure. If we restrict the rent we get less for the next tranche of assets we sell. These are the facts and Ed and other politicians need to come to grips with them.
    In other words - no criticism of any commercial company can ever be justified, "because the market".
    No, not at all. But criticism, and the restriction of profits from what you have sold have real world consequences. With windfall taxes and other interference in the market by government we make the UK a less attractive place for foreigners to invest and we need their money for as long as we overspend.
    So we must never regulate any company with a foreign owner, whatever the circumstances.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,155
    One aspect of the “Benin Bronzes” story that hasn’t been much explored is “where did the bronze come from?” Turns out, the Rheinland. How did it get to Benin? From Portuguese slave traders who used it to pay for slaves- which Benin provided. How did the British get them? After a raid to suppress then stop said Slave Trade.

    https://afrikanfrontier.com/arts/unveiling-the-origins-of-benin-bronzes-new-research-reveals-german-rhineland-brass-manillas/

    So we should return them to said former slavers for them to disappear into a private collection?

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/berlins-benin-bronze-return-a-fiasco-as-artefacts-vanish-jq9xsn9cf
  • TazTaz Posts: 7,626
    Scott_xP said:

    Rishi Sunak has backed away from the Conservatives’ manifesto promise to cut immigration below 2019 levels as he appeared to blame Boris Johnson for record numbers of migrants coming to Britain.

    The prime minister insisted that the government was “in control” of immigration despite official data that will be published next week that is expected to show net migration hit another record high of about 700,000 last year.

    That would be more than two and a half times the level of net migration in 2019, which was 271,000. The Conservative Party promised in its 2019 election manifesto that “overall numbers will come down”.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jeremy-hunt-splits-from-suella-braverman-on-migrant-labour-dpt2c63bq

    Given the levels of employment and skills shortages we have arguably we need more, not less, migration.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,155
    Chris said:

    DavidL said:

    Chris said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Water companies discover all of a sudden that they could have been spending more on their crumbling infrastructure.

    UK water companies offer apology and £10bn investment for sewage spills
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/18/uk-water-companies-offer-apology-and-10bn-investment-for-sewage-spills

    What say their apologists now ?

    I'm inclined to agree with this take.
    Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey said: “This apology and plan just don’t go far enough. For years water companies have arrogantly dismissed the public’s fears of rivers, lakes and coastlines being damaged by sewage discharges.

    “This announcement does nothing to match the billions water firms have paid out in dividends to overseas investors, or stop their CEOs being handed multimillion pound bonuses.”


    If we don't want "overseas investors" claiming "billions in dividends" we need to rebalance our trade deficit by reducing domestic demand and investing more. Not sure I see Ed Davey arguing for that. If we don't we have to pay rent on the assets we have sold to cover our excess expenditure. If we restrict the rent we get less for the next tranche of assets we sell. These are the facts and Ed and other politicians need to come to grips with them.
    In other words - no criticism of any commercial company can ever be justified, "because the market".
    No, not at all. But criticism, and the restriction of profits from what you have sold have real world consequences. With windfall taxes and other interference in the market by government we make the UK a less attractive place for foreigners to invest and we need their money for as long as we overspend.
    So we must never regulate any company with a foreign owner, whatever the circumstances.
    No, foreigners must invest in us irrespective of the return they get or subsequent punitive changes in legislation.,
  • TazTaz Posts: 7,626
    Nigelb said:

    Water companies discover all of a sudden that they could have been spending more on their crumbling infrastructure.

    UK water companies offer apology and £10bn investment for sewage spills
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/18/uk-water-companies-offer-apology-and-10bn-investment-for-sewage-spills

    What say their apologists now ?

    I'm inclined to agree with this take.
    Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey said: “This apology and plan just don’t go far enough. For years water companies have arrogantly dismissed the public’s fears of rivers, lakes and coastlines being damaged by sewage discharges.

    “This announcement does nothing to match the billions water firms have paid out in dividends to overseas investors, or stop their CEOs being handed multimillion pound bonuses.”


    It’s just cheap politics. I don’t get the point about overseas investors. Why shouldn’t they get dividends as well as domestic investors ? Surely a better point would have been the level of dividends paid out rather than just discriminating on the recipients based on where they are based.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 108,506
    A courageous bet from OGH.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,041
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Rishi Sunak has backed away from the Conservatives’ manifesto promise to cut immigration below 2019 levels as he appeared to blame Boris Johnson for record numbers of migrants coming to Britain.

    The prime minister insisted that the government was “in control” of immigration despite official data that will be published next week that is expected to show net migration hit another record high of about 700,000 last year.

    That would be more than two and a half times the level of net migration in 2019, which was 271,000. The Conservative Party promised in its 2019 election manifesto that “overall numbers will come down”.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jeremy-hunt-splits-from-suella-braverman-on-migrant-labour-dpt2c63bq

    Given the levels of employment and skills shortages we have arguably we need more, not less, migration.
    throwing petrol on a fire rarely helps put it out.
  • TazTaz Posts: 7,626
    For those following the story,of young Harold’s whistle stop car chase across New York, the taxi driver has somewhat contradicted his claims about the perceived danger of the situation. I’m stunned.

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1659053239239688194?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ
  • TazTaz Posts: 7,626

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Rishi Sunak has backed away from the Conservatives’ manifesto promise to cut immigration below 2019 levels as he appeared to blame Boris Johnson for record numbers of migrants coming to Britain.

    The prime minister insisted that the government was “in control” of immigration despite official data that will be published next week that is expected to show net migration hit another record high of about 700,000 last year.

    That would be more than two and a half times the level of net migration in 2019, which was 271,000. The Conservative Party promised in its 2019 election manifesto that “overall numbers will come down”.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jeremy-hunt-splits-from-suella-braverman-on-migrant-labour-dpt2c63bq

    Given the levels of employment and skills shortages we have arguably we need more, not less, migration.
    throwing petrol on a fire rarely helps put it out.
    What fire ? We need more labour for the gaps in the market. Brexit was about taking back control not stopping migration.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 528
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-65626241

    Oh that's okay then.

    Time to nationalise them and chuck them in jail, at this point they can be nationalised without compensation, what a bunch of crooks.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,041
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Rishi Sunak has backed away from the Conservatives’ manifesto promise to cut immigration below 2019 levels as he appeared to blame Boris Johnson for record numbers of migrants coming to Britain.

    The prime minister insisted that the government was “in control” of immigration despite official data that will be published next week that is expected to show net migration hit another record high of about 700,000 last year.

    That would be more than two and a half times the level of net migration in 2019, which was 271,000. The Conservative Party promised in its 2019 election manifesto that “overall numbers will come down”.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jeremy-hunt-splits-from-suella-braverman-on-migrant-labour-dpt2c63bq

    Given the levels of employment and skills shortages we have arguably we need more, not less, migration.
    throwing petrol on a fire rarely helps put it out.
    What fire ? We need more labour for the gaps in the market. Brexit was about taking back control not stopping migration.
    I would counter that with we have enough people already in the country to do the work and labour alone is not the problem, if our businesses had spent more time in capital investment and automation, we would need less people and productivity would be higher, But our corporates just love cheap labour which is why we are not going up the value chain and are seeking to compete with Sri Lanka.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 59,855
    DavidL said:

    On Trump my reservation is that I so want laying him to be the right move

    I think you might benefit from talking to Stormy Daniels. She can explain to you how this didn't work for her...
  • RattersRatters Posts: 530
    DavidL said:

    Chris said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Water companies discover all of a sudden that they could have been spending more on their crumbling infrastructure.

    UK water companies offer apology and £10bn investment for sewage spills
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/18/uk-water-companies-offer-apology-and-10bn-investment-for-sewage-spills

    What say their apologists now ?

    I'm inclined to agree with this take.
    Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey said: “This apology and plan just don’t go far enough. For years water companies have arrogantly dismissed the public’s fears of rivers, lakes and coastlines being damaged by sewage discharges.

    “This announcement does nothing to match the billions water firms have paid out in dividends to overseas investors, or stop their CEOs being handed multimillion pound bonuses.”


    If we don't want "overseas investors" claiming "billions in dividends" we need to rebalance our trade deficit by reducing domestic demand and investing more. Not sure I see Ed Davey arguing for that. If we don't we have to pay rent on the assets we have sold to cover our excess expenditure. If we restrict the rent we get less for the next tranche of assets we sell. These are the facts and Ed and other politicians need to come to grips with them.
    In other words - no criticism of any commercial company can ever be justified, "because the market".
    No, not at all. But criticism, and the restriction of profits from what you have sold have real world consequences. With windfall taxes and other interference in the market by government we make the UK a less attractive place for foreigners to invest and we need their money for as long as we overspend.
    We don't need to restrict profits, we need to enforce laws.

    There should be huge fines for water companies that dump sewage beyond whatever the agreed threshold is. If that means they face losses due to previous underinvestment, then so be it. And they should continue to be fined until they invest to meet their obligations.

    If that is unaffordable, then the equity holders can get wiped out and the debt holders can take control of the company and have another go.

    That's how the market is supposed to work, particularly for highly regulated local monopolies.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 10,364

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Rishi Sunak has backed away from the Conservatives’ manifesto promise to cut immigration below 2019 levels as he appeared to blame Boris Johnson for record numbers of migrants coming to Britain.

    The prime minister insisted that the government was “in control” of immigration despite official data that will be published next week that is expected to show net migration hit another record high of about 700,000 last year.

    That would be more than two and a half times the level of net migration in 2019, which was 271,000. The Conservative Party promised in its 2019 election manifesto that “overall numbers will come down”.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jeremy-hunt-splits-from-suella-braverman-on-migrant-labour-dpt2c63bq

    Given the levels of employment and skills shortages we have arguably we need more, not less, migration.
    throwing petrol on a fire rarely helps put it out.
    What fire ? We need more labour for the gaps in the market. Brexit was about taking back control not stopping migration.
    I would counter that with we have enough people already in the country to do the work and labour alone is not the problem, if our businesses had spent more time in capital investment and automation, we would need less people and productivity would be higher, But our corporates just love cheap labour which is why we are not going up the value chain and are seeking to compete with Sri Lanka.
    The counterpoint is that a very large slice of the imported labour is for health and social care. Sectors where automation isn't easy to do and decisions are in the hands of the government.

    More generally- if we don't know what Brexit is intended to do (apart from to exist), how is it ever going to be a success?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 5,841
    Taz said:

    For those following the story,of young Harold’s whistle stop car chase across New York, the taxi driver has somewhat contradicted his claims about the perceived danger of the situation. I’m stunned.

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1659053239239688194?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ

    The truth to Megan and Harry can be exchanged for money. Its all about keeping them in the headlines..
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 110,603
    edited May 18
    Scott_xP said:

    Rishi Sunak has backed away from the Conservatives’ manifesto promise to cut immigration below 2019 levels as he appeared to blame Boris Johnson for record numbers of migrants coming to Britain.

    The prime minister insisted that the government was “in control” of immigration despite official data that will be published next week that is expected to show net migration hit another record high of about 700,000 last year.

    That would be more than two and a half times the level of net migration in 2019, which was 271,000. The Conservative Party promised in its 2019 election manifesto that “overall numbers will come down”.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jeremy-hunt-splits-from-suella-braverman-on-migrant-labour-dpt2c63bq

    Confirmation that the RedWall is now lost back to Labour post Boris and Sunak and Hunt aren't even bothering to retain it now.

    All they can hope to do is minimise the damage of likely defeat by trying to retain some of the bluewall and marginal seats Cameron won
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 110,603
    Whether Trump loses any more legal cases and how he performs in Iowa and NH will be key. If Pence or DeSantis get a shock win in evangelical heavy Iowa especially, where remember Cruz beat Trump in 2016, all would be to play for
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 4,620
    Chris said:

    DavidL said:

    Chris said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Water companies discover all of a sudden that they could have been spending more on their crumbling infrastructure.

    UK water companies offer apology and £10bn investment for sewage spills
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/18/uk-water-companies-offer-apology-and-10bn-investment-for-sewage-spills

    What say their apologists now ?

    I'm inclined to agree with this take.
    Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey said: “This apology and plan just don’t go far enough. For years water companies have arrogantly dismissed the public’s fears of rivers, lakes and coastlines being damaged by sewage discharges.

    “This announcement does nothing to match the billions water firms have paid out in dividends to overseas investors, or stop their CEOs being handed multimillion pound bonuses.”


    If we don't want "overseas investors" claiming "billions in dividends" we need to rebalance our trade deficit by reducing domestic demand and investing more. Not sure I see Ed Davey arguing for that. If we don't we have to pay rent on the assets we have sold to cover our excess expenditure. If we restrict the rent we get less for the next tranche of assets we sell. These are the facts and Ed and other politicians need to come to grips with them.
    In other words - no criticism of any commercial company can ever be justified, "because the market".
    No, not at all. But criticism, and the restriction of profits from what you have sold have real world consequences. With windfall taxes and other interference in the market by government we make the UK a less attractive place for foreigners to invest and we need their money for as long as we overspend.
    So we must never regulate any company with a foreign owner, whatever the circumstances.
    That’s not what @DavidL is saying

    We sold these companies. We have the right to change the rules. Say, as an extreme example, we nationalised without compensation. We would be foolish to expect any other investors to buy similar assets in the future.

    Similarly if we change the return profile such that water companies are only allowed to earn 8% on their investments vs 11% (dummy numbers) the value goes down. It’s just maths.

    We currently run a trade deficit which needs to be funded by selling assets. @DavidL is suggesting we should stop doing that…


  • kamskikamski Posts: 3,561

    One aspect of the “Benin Bronzes” story that hasn’t been much explored is “where did the bronze come from?” Turns out, the Rheinland. How did it get to Benin? From Portuguese slave traders who used it to pay for slaves- which Benin provided. How did the British get them? After a raid to suppress then stop said Slave Trade.

    https://afrikanfrontier.com/arts/unveiling-the-origins-of-benin-bronzes-new-research-reveals-german-rhineland-brass-manillas/

    So we should return them to said former slavers for them to disappear into a private collection?

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/berlins-benin-bronze-return-a-fiasco-as-artefacts-vanish-jq9xsn9cf

    "After a raid to suppress then stop said Slave Trade."

    Rubbish.

    Also Benin supposedly banned the sale of slaves in the 16th century.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,041

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Rishi Sunak has backed away from the Conservatives’ manifesto promise to cut immigration below 2019 levels as he appeared to blame Boris Johnson for record numbers of migrants coming to Britain.

    The prime minister insisted that the government was “in control” of immigration despite official data that will be published next week that is expected to show net migration hit another record high of about 700,000 last year.

    That would be more than two and a half times the level of net migration in 2019, which was 271,000. The Conservative Party promised in its 2019 election manifesto that “overall numbers will come down”.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jeremy-hunt-splits-from-suella-braverman-on-migrant-labour-dpt2c63bq

    Given the levels of employment and skills shortages we have arguably we need more, not less, migration.
    throwing petrol on a fire rarely helps put it out.
    What fire ? We need more labour for the gaps in the market. Brexit was about taking back control not stopping migration.
    I would counter that with we have enough people already in the country to do the work and labour alone is not the problem, if our businesses had spent more time in capital investment and automation, we would need less people and productivity would be higher, But our corporates just love cheap labour which is why we are not going up the value chain and are seeking to compete with Sri Lanka.
    The counterpoint is that a very large slice of the imported labour is for health and social care. Sectors where automation isn't easy to do and decisions are in the hands of the government.

    More generally- if we don't know what Brexit is intended to do (apart from to exist), how is it ever going to be a success?
    You can retrain people and move them across industries. What is the point in bringing more people in when

    - there is not sufficient infrastructure all of us who already live here
    - the AI wave will hit us increasingly over the next decade
    - we need to raise productivity to enable us to pay our bills and cheap labour takes us in the opposite direction.

    The UK needs to get back to addressing the fundamentals of the economy and stop doubling down on failed policies.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 44,761
    Taz said:

    For those following the story,of young Harold’s whistle stop car chase across New York, the taxi driver has somewhat contradicted his claims about the perceived danger of the situation. I’m stunned.

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1659053239239688194?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ

    How dare you seek to question their truth!

    Oh, and the picture agency with the photos, is the same one this couple uses for their staged pap shots. The whole thing has nothing whatsoever to do with an ongoing court case about police security.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 30,391

    The UK needs to get back to addressing the fundamentals of the economy and stop doubling down on failed policies.

    like brexit
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 108,506
    Surely they could have named it something better unless they plan to go full MacArthur and nuke China.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/uk-and-japan-strike-trade-deal-at-g7-summit-amid-china-concerns-kbcrdf6ml
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 44,761
    I go from thinking one week that Trump has no chance, to thinking the next that he’s an absolute shoo-in for the nomination.

    Last week it was various allegations and prosecutions against him, including the civil sexual assault case, but this week it’s John Durahm’s report suggesting that large parts of the State apparatus tried to take him down while he was in office.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,155
    Taz said:

    For those following the story,of young Harold’s whistle stop car chase across New York, the taxi driver has somewhat contradicted his claims about the perceived danger of the situation. I’m stunned.

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1659053239239688194?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ

    You’d think Harry, of all people, would understand the importance of wearing a seatbelt…..
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,041
    Scott_xP said:

    The UK needs to get back to addressing the fundamentals of the economy and stop doubling down on failed policies.

    like brexit
    Hey hows 2016 looking ? I cant remember much about it myself but if I get the chance Ill call in at he Scott 2016 museum and listen to some Justin Bieber with you
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 108,506
    My word.

    SNP treasurer Colin Beattie was on holiday when police went to arrest him

    Police officers investigating the SNP’s finances failed to arrest the party’s treasurer on the same day they raided Nicola Sturgeon’s home because he was on holiday in Tuscany.

    Officers turned up at Colin Beattie’s large Georgian home in Eskbank, Dalkeith, on April 5, as part of a co-ordinated swoop on him and Peter Murrell, the former SNP chief executive who is married to the former first minister. They simultaneously carried out a search of the party’s Edinburgh headquarters and seized a camper van from outside the home of Murrell’s mother in Dunfermline.

    However, the MSP for Midlothian North & Musselburgh was holidaying in Italy during Holyrood’s Easter recess. Officers targeted him again 13 days later, on the day that MSPs returned to the Scottish parliament when it was guaranteed he would be back in the country.

    The Times has learnt that Beattie was told of the earlier arrest attempt while being questioned under caution. Both he and Murrell were released without charge pending further inquiries. Beattie resigned as treasurer; Murrell had stepped down in March.

    The timing of Beattie’s arrest overshadowed Humza Yousaf’s first major speech to the Scottish parliament and prompted claims that the timing of the raid was politically motivated. “It would have been better for us if Colin had just been at home,” said one senior figure.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-treasurer-colin-beattie-was-on-holiday-when-police-went-to-arrest-him-fbsgds83j
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 34,397
    kamski said:

    One aspect of the “Benin Bronzes” story that hasn’t been much explored is “where did the bronze come from?” Turns out, the Rheinland. How did it get to Benin? From Portuguese slave traders who used it to pay for slaves- which Benin provided. How did the British get them? After a raid to suppress then stop said Slave Trade.

    https://afrikanfrontier.com/arts/unveiling-the-origins-of-benin-bronzes-new-research-reveals-german-rhineland-brass-manillas/

    So we should return them to said former slavers for them to disappear into a private collection?

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/berlins-benin-bronze-return-a-fiasco-as-artefacts-vanish-jq9xsn9cf

    "After a raid to suppress then stop said Slave Trade."

    Rubbish.

    Also Benin supposedly banned the sale of slaves in the 16th century.
    "The trade largely stopped by the end of the 19th century, but Benin never fully confronted what had happened. The kingdoms that captured and sold slaves still exist today as tribal networks, and so do the groups that were raided. The descendants of slave merchants, like the de Souza family, remain among the nation's most influential people, with a large degree of control over how Benin's history is portrayed."

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/an-african-country-reckons-with-its-history-of-selling-slaves/2018/01/29/5234f5aa-ff9a-11e7-86b9-8908743c79dd_story.html

    "Between the seventeenth and the first half of the nineteenth century, its coast was one of main embarking regions for the transatlantic slave trade"

    https://eap.bl.uk/project/EAP1055
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 5,841
    According to the Times dear old Angela Rayner was skewered by Oliver Dowden yesterday at PMQs
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 44,761

    According to the Times dear old Angela Rayner was skewered by Oliver Dowden yesterday at PMQs

    She’s only 43. If that’s old…
  • kjhkjh Posts: 9,065

    According to the Times dear old Angela Rayner was skewered by Oliver Dowden yesterday at PMQs

    I thought you didn't believe anything in the media or are you suggesting Angela won? 😉
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 12,203

    According to the Times dear old Angela Rayner was skewered by Oliver Dowden yesterday at PMQs

    Perhaps unsurprisingly the Guardian took the opposite view of their exchanges.
    Entirely off topic, I am having my third tustle with Covid. Seems to be about midway between the first (debilitating) and second (virtually asymptomatic). A pain.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 34,397

    According to the Times dear old Angela Rayner was skewered by Oliver Dowden yesterday at PMQs

    Perhaps unsurprisingly the Guardian took the opposite view of their exchanges.
    Entirely off topic, I am having my third tustle with Covid. Seems to be about midway between the first (debilitating) and second (virtually asymptomatic). A pain.
    Hope you feel better soon. I still haven't recovered from my furst-ever bout of Covid, which I got just before Easter. My lungs still won't allow me to do a ten-mile run. :(
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 108,506
    edited May 18

    According to the Times dear old Angela Rayner was skewered by Oliver Dowden yesterday at PMQs

    Perhaps unsurprisingly the Guardian took the opposite view of their exchanges.
    Entirely off topic, I am having my third tustle with Covid. Seems to be about midway between the first (debilitating) and second (virtually asymptomatic). A pain.
    Dowden read Law at Trinity Hall, Cambridge, I don't need to watch the exchanges between him and Rayner to know he skewered her at PMQs.

    PS - The Daily Mail and Suella Braverman expect you to go into the office with Covid, otherwise you're a commie who wants to destroy the economy.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,155

    According to the Times dear old Angela Rayner was skewered by Oliver Dowden yesterday at PMQs

    Perhaps unsurprisingly the Guardian took the opposite view of their exchanges.
    Entirely off topic, I am having my third tustle with Covid. Seems to be about midway between the first (debilitating) and second (virtually asymptomatic). A pain.
    There does seem to be a lot of it about - friend just came down with it, but appears to be on the mend. Loss of appetite main differentiator vs “bad cold”.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 12,203

    According to the Times dear old Angela Rayner was skewered by Oliver Dowden yesterday at PMQs

    Perhaps unsurprisingly the Guardian took the opposite view of their exchanges.
    Entirely off topic, I am having my third tustle with Covid. Seems to be about midway between the first (debilitating) and second (virtually asymptomatic). A pain.
    Dowden read Law at Trinity Hall, Cambridge, I don't need to watch the exchanges between him and Rayner to know he skewered her at PMQs.

    PS - The Daily Mail and Suella Braverman expect you to go into the office with Covid, otherwise you're a commie who wants to destroy the economy.
    Tit Hall? Sounds appropriate.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 9,065

    According to the Times dear old Angela Rayner was skewered by Oliver Dowden yesterday at PMQs

    Perhaps unsurprisingly the Guardian took the opposite view of their exchanges.
    Entirely off topic, I am having my third tustle with Covid. Seems to be about midway between the first (debilitating) and second (virtually asymptomatic). A pain.
    Hope you feel better soon. I still haven't recovered from my furst-ever bout of Covid, which I got just before Easter. My lungs still won't allow me to do a ten-mile run. :(
    My lungs won't allow me to do a 10 mile run either, but that has nothing to do with Covid.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 5,841
    kjh said:

    According to the Times dear old Angela Rayner was skewered by Oliver Dowden yesterday at PMQs

    I thought you didn't believe anything in the media or are you suggesting Angela won? 😉
    I thunk its fair to say the Times is a reasonable newspaper to read. It doesn't print Daily Star type crap, well not often..
    I certainly don't believe anything in The Sun or other such rags. The Telegraph is run by the Barclay brothers. Nuff said. Grauniad is a left wing rag so that leaves the Times as the only serious newspaper. I have said b4 that I subscribe to the Times for that very reason.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 12,203
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/18/jail-law-britain-prisoners-ipp-sentences

    This is a shocking read and a sobering reminder of the kind of injustices that happen under the guise of being "tough on crime". Labour to blame for this one, too, I'm ashamed to say.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 31,751
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 12,203

    kjh said:

    According to the Times dear old Angela Rayner was skewered by Oliver Dowden yesterday at PMQs

    I thought you didn't believe anything in the media or are you suggesting Angela won? 😉
    I thunk its fair to say the Times is a reasonable newspaper to read. It doesn't print Daily Star type crap, well not often..
    I certainly don't believe anything in The Sun or other such rags. The Telegraph is run by the Barclay brothers. Nuff said. Grauniad is a left wing rag so that leaves the Times as the only serious newspaper. I have said b4 that I subscribe to the Times for that very reason.
    The Times is owned by right wing billionaire scumbag Rupert Murdoch so I don't believe anything I read in it. The Guardian is biased but in the same direction I am. The FT is the only paper I really trust.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 51,793
    DavidL said:

    Chris said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Water companies discover all of a sudden that they could have been spending more on their crumbling infrastructure.

    UK water companies offer apology and £10bn investment for sewage spills
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/18/uk-water-companies-offer-apology-and-10bn-investment-for-sewage-spills

    What say their apologists now ?

    I'm inclined to agree with this take.
    Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey said: “This apology and plan just don’t go far enough. For years water companies have arrogantly dismissed the public’s fears of rivers, lakes and coastlines being damaged by sewage discharges.

    “This announcement does nothing to match the billions water firms have paid out in dividends to overseas investors, or stop their CEOs being handed multimillion pound bonuses.”


    If we don't want "overseas investors" claiming "billions in dividends" we need to rebalance our trade deficit by reducing domestic demand and investing more. Not sure I see Ed Davey arguing for that. If we don't we have to pay rent on the assets we have sold to cover our excess expenditure. If we restrict the rent we get less for the next tranche of assets we sell. These are the facts and Ed and other politicians need to come to grips with them.
    In other words - no criticism of any commercial company can ever be justified, "because the market".
    No, not at all. But criticism, and the restriction of profits from what you have sold have real world consequences. With windfall taxes and other interference in the market by government we make the UK a less attractive place for foreigners to invest and we need their money for as long as we overspend.
    That's a losing game very quickly, though.
    As we continue to sell income generating assets, the cash outflow increases.

    Time to put an end to that - particularly for monopoly utilities, which simply don't need to produce outsize dividends.

    The current proposal is outrageous, since if approved, it would allow these companies to borrow to improve their assets, entirely at the expense of customers.

    They should be paying for much of this work out of current profits.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 12,203

    According to the Times dear old Angela Rayner was skewered by Oliver Dowden yesterday at PMQs

    Perhaps unsurprisingly the Guardian took the opposite view of their exchanges.
    Entirely off topic, I am having my third tustle with Covid. Seems to be about midway between the first (debilitating) and second (virtually asymptomatic). A pain.
    Dowden read Law at Trinity Hall, Cambridge, I don't need to watch the exchanges between him and Rayner to know he skewered her at PMQs.

    PS - The Daily Mail and Suella Braverman expect you to go into the office with Covid, otherwise you're a commie who wants to destroy the economy.
    The latter goes without saying.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 12,203

    According to the Times dear old Angela Rayner was skewered by Oliver Dowden yesterday at PMQs

    Perhaps unsurprisingly the Guardian took the opposite view of their exchanges.
    Entirely off topic, I am having my third tustle with Covid. Seems to be about midway between the first (debilitating) and second (virtually asymptomatic). A pain.
    Hope you feel better soon. I still haven't recovered from my furst-ever bout of Covid, which I got just before Easter. My lungs still won't allow me to do a ten-mile run. :(
    Thanks! Yes it took me a few months to really get over it the first time round. Although I wouldn't have been able to do a ten mile run before or afterwards!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 51,793

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Water companies discover all of a sudden that they could have been spending more on their crumbling infrastructure.

    UK water companies offer apology and £10bn investment for sewage spills
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/18/uk-water-companies-offer-apology-and-10bn-investment-for-sewage-spills

    What say their apologists now ?

    I'm inclined to agree with this take.
    Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey said: “This apology and plan just don’t go far enough. For years water companies have arrogantly dismissed the public’s fears of rivers, lakes and coastlines being damaged by sewage discharges.

    “This announcement does nothing to match the billions water firms have paid out in dividends to overseas investors, or stop their CEOs being handed multimillion pound bonuses.”


    Of course the water companies will offer more investment - they are allowed to earn a return on this investment, so they will actually make more money, and pay more dividends to foreign investors, than if they let the sewage flow out wherever. Davey simply doesn't seem to understand price regulation in the water industry (not surprisingly, as it is stupefyingly complicated).

    The water industry has been by far the most successful of the privatised industries in thwarting competition. It is complacent, greedy, inefficient, overly politicised and borderline corrupt because its revenues are directly in the government's gift. Typical monopolists in fact.
    He understands perfectly well, since he's calling fir tightef regulation to reduce those profits.

    This is a preemptive strike by the water companies in an effort to maintain them.
    But it does also make a nonsense of their previous protestations.
    Of all the industries I have worked in the Water sector is by far one of the worst managed. Only rail is worse.
    Let's see stricter regulation, and some real incentive to manage, then. Those that can't cope can be nationalised.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 51,793
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Water companies discover all of a sudden that they could have been spending more on their crumbling infrastructure.

    UK water companies offer apology and £10bn investment for sewage spills
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/18/uk-water-companies-offer-apology-and-10bn-investment-for-sewage-spills

    What say their apologists now ?

    I'm inclined to agree with this take.
    Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey said: “This apology and plan just don’t go far enough. For years water companies have arrogantly dismissed the public’s fears of rivers, lakes and coastlines being damaged by sewage discharges.

    “This announcement does nothing to match the billions water firms have paid out in dividends to overseas investors, or stop their CEOs being handed multimillion pound bonuses.”


    It’s just cheap politics. I don’t get the point about overseas investors. Why shouldn’t they get dividends as well as domestic investors ? Surely a better point would have been the level of dividends paid out rather than just discriminating on the recipients based on where they are based.
    I don't disagree - but from the point of view of the UK, dividends remitted overseas, versus paid into (say) pension funds, are more damaging.

    It's indeed the level of profits and dividends - generated by benefit of monopoly position rather than good performance - which I object to.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 51,793

    According to the Times dear old Angela Rayner was skewered by Oliver Dowden yesterday at PMQs

    Perhaps unsurprisingly the Guardian took the opposite view of their exchanges.
    Entirely off topic, I am having my third tustle with Covid. Seems to be about midway between the first (debilitating) and second (virtually asymptomatic). A pain.
    Dowden read Law at Trinity Hall, Cambridge, I don't need to watch the exchanges between him and Rayner to know he skewered her at PMQs.

    PS - The Daily Mail and Suella Braverman expect you to go into the office with Covid, otherwise you're a commie who wants to destroy the economy.
    He was crap.
    Sounded like a schoolboy.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 5,841

    According to the Times dear old Angela Rayner was skewered by Oliver Dowden yesterday at PMQs

    Perhaps unsurprisingly the Guardian took the opposite view of their exchanges.
    Entirely off topic, I am having my third tustle with Covid. Seems to be about midway between the first (debilitating) and second (virtually asymptomatic). A pain.
    Dowden read Law at Trinity Hall, Cambridge, I don't need to watch the exchanges between him and Rayner to know he skewered her at PMQs.

    PS - The Daily Mail and Suella Braverman expect you to go into the office with Covid, otherwise you're a commie who wants to destroy the economy.
    The latter goes without saying.
    I forgot the Mail . A hate filled rag ....the Express ..oh dear..
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,376
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: sure you've all heard but the planned race this weekend is off due to flooding. Shame we lost an Italian race rather than Miami or Monaco, but there we are.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 51,793
    HYUFD said:

    Whether Trump loses any more legal cases and how he performs in Iowa and NH will be key. If Pence or DeSantis get a shock win in evangelical heavy Iowa especially, where remember Cruz beat Trump in 2016, all would be to play for

    It's inaccurate to describe them as 'more legal cases'.
    This time round it will be criminal indictments, which is quite a different prospect from his usual run through the courts.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 51,793
    Sandpit said:

    I go from thinking one week that Trump has no chance, to thinking the next that he’s an absolute shoo-in for the nomination.

    Last week it was various allegations and prosecutions against him, including the civil sexual assault case, but this week it’s John Durahm’s report suggesting that large parts of the State apparatus tried to take him down while he was in office.

    The Durham report is a load of cobblers, being furiously spun by the Republicans.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,470
    What's a newspaper? My grandad read those I think.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 51,793
    edited May 18

    kjh said:

    According to the Times dear old Angela Rayner was skewered by Oliver Dowden yesterday at PMQs

    I thought you didn't believe anything in the media or are you suggesting Angela won? 😉
    I thunk its fair to say the Times is a reasonable newspaper to read. It doesn't print Daily Star type crap, well not often..
    I certainly don't believe anything in The Sun or other such rags. The Telegraph is run by the Barclay brothers. Nuff said. Grauniad is a left wing rag so that leaves the Times as the only serious newspaper. I have said b4 that I subscribe to the Times for that very reason.
    The Times is owned by right wing billionaire scumbag Rupert Murdoch so I don't believe anything I read in it. The Guardian is biased but in the same direction I am. The FT is the only paper I really trust.
    I don't 'really trust' any paper.
    You can find very good reporting in the Times, Guardian and FT; also dross.

    The question is rather which are worth bothering with, and which not.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,124
    Given Biden’s age, whoever gets the GOP nomination has a huge chance of winning. I don’t buy the claims that Biden is in cognitive decline, there’s nothing in policy making or executive performance to suggest that, but he is clearly fragile and can struggle in public appearances. That will not improve and will be played upon ruthlessly and relentlessly. There’s also a very good chance of an economic stumble between now and election day.

    All of that leaves Europe facing the very real prospect of significant cuts to US aid to Ukraine and a major strengthening of Putin’s position, if he can hold on until January 2025. How is the line held if that happens? At that point President Xi becomes even more important as someone who can constrain Putin. That only happens if he feels there is something in it for China. And that something is trade and other ties with Europe that he doesn’t want disrupted. For that reason I expect increasing divergence over China strategy between Europe, including the UK, and the US over the coming years - with a significant acceleration if the GOP takes the White House in November 2024.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 20,817

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/18/jail-law-britain-prisoners-ipp-sentences

    This is a shocking read and a sobering reminder of the kind of injustices that happen under the guise of being "tough on crime". Labour to blame for this one, too, I'm ashamed to say.

    So is "I got it wrong" Blunkett! And it is an unqualified disgrace.

    Proof it it were ever needed that Labour Lawyers are unfit for Government. Real ones or David Blunkett.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,124
    There is no PMQs that has ever taken place that Quentin Letts of The Times does not report has been won by the Tory PM.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 30,038
    Carnyx said:
    Back in the 70s when I ran a pharmacy on Canvey Island, I quite often got people coming in with medical devices that they found on the beach, washed out of one of the tips around Mucking.

    And good morning one, and all!
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 23,503
    DavidL said:

    Chris said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Water companies discover all of a sudden that they could have been spending more on their crumbling infrastructure.

    UK water companies offer apology and £10bn investment for sewage spills
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/18/uk-water-companies-offer-apology-and-10bn-investment-for-sewage-spills

    What say their apologists now ?

    I'm inclined to agree with this take.
    Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey said: “This apology and plan just don’t go far enough. For years water companies have arrogantly dismissed the public’s fears of rivers, lakes and coastlines being damaged by sewage discharges.

    “This announcement does nothing to match the billions water firms have paid out in dividends to overseas investors, or stop their CEOs being handed multimillion pound bonuses.”


    If we don't want "overseas investors" claiming "billions in dividends" we need to rebalance our trade deficit by reducing domestic demand and investing more. Not sure I see Ed Davey arguing for that. If we don't we have to pay rent on the assets we have sold to cover our excess expenditure. If we restrict the rent we get less for the next tranche of assets we sell. These are the facts and Ed and other politicians need to come to grips with them.
    In other words - no criticism of any commercial company can ever be justified, "because the market".
    No, not at all. But criticism, and the restriction of profits from what you have sold have real world consequences. With windfall taxes and other interference in the market by government we make the UK a less attractive place for foreigners to invest and we need their money for as long as we overspend.
    I don't want foreigners to buy our under-regulated water companies so they can make a fortune as we swim in our own shit.

    Foreign investment in industry. Not foreign non-investment. This laisse-faire regulation of water which you support - has it driven a bonanza of foreign investment in everything else? No - instead the rest of the stuff we flogged off is also at risk - the entire car industry saying "sort Brexit or we're off" being the latest triumph.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 44,761

    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: sure you've all heard but the planned race this weekend is off due to flooding. Shame we lost an Italian race rather than Miami or Monaco, but there we are.

    For once, F1 making the right decision and in plenty of time. The floods in the region are horrific, and there’s ten thousand people evacuated from their homes only a few miles from the circuit. Not fair on the emergency services and local authorities to try and stage the race. Hopefully the promoter has good insurance, because it’s going to be really difficult to re-schedule for later in the year.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 37,294
    Nigelb said:

    Water companies discover all of a sudden that they could have been spending more on their crumbling infrastructure.

    UK water companies offer apology and £10bn investment for sewage spills
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/18/uk-water-companies-offer-apology-and-10bn-investment-for-sewage-spills

    What say their apologists now ?

    I'm inclined to agree with this take.
    Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey said: “This apology and plan just don’t go far enough. For years water companies have arrogantly dismissed the public’s fears of rivers, lakes and coastlines being damaged by sewage discharges.

    “This announcement does nothing to match the billions water firms have paid out in dividends to overseas investors, or stop their CEOs being handed multimillion pound bonuses.”


    They think we should swallow any old shit, just like wot they used to do.


  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 30,391

    There is no PMQs that has ever taken place that Quentin Letts of The Times does not report has been won by the Tory PM.

    @DAaronovitch

    I couldn't say this while I was at @thetimes as it would have been bad manners. But how that witless throwback Quentin Letts holds his job when Rob Hutton is out there is one of the mysteries of modern British journalism. But what do I know?
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 8,638
    Scott_xP said:

    There is no PMQs that has ever taken place that Quentin Letts of The Times does not report has been won by the Tory PM.

    @DAaronovitch

    I couldn't say this while I was at @thetimes as it would have been bad manners. But how that witless throwback Quentin Letts holds his job when Rob Hutton is out there is one of the mysteries of modern British journalism. But what do I know?
    That's quite the exchange between Aaronovitch and Letts! If I have to choose which of the two came out of it better, I'd have to say... Sunak
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 3,328
    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There is no PMQs that has ever taken place that Quentin Letts of The Times does not report has been won by the Tory PM.

    @DAaronovitch

    I couldn't say this while I was at @thetimes as it would have been bad manners. But how that witless throwback Quentin Letts holds his job when Rob Hutton is out there is one of the mysteries of modern British journalism. But what do I know?
    That's quite the exchange between Aaronovitch and Letts! If I have to choose which of the two came out of it better, I'd have to say... Sunak
    Aaronovitch’s brother’s novels are good.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 8,638
    edited May 18

    Nigelb said:

    Water companies discover all of a sudden that they could have been spending more on their crumbling infrastructure.

    UK water companies offer apology and £10bn investment for sewage spills
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/18/uk-water-companies-offer-apology-and-10bn-investment-for-sewage-spills

    What say their apologists now ?

    I'm inclined to agree with this take.
    Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey said: “This apology and plan just don’t go far enough. For years water companies have arrogantly dismissed the public’s fears of rivers, lakes and coastlines being damaged by sewage discharges.

    “This announcement does nothing to match the billions water firms have paid out in dividends to overseas investors, or stop their CEOs being handed multimillion pound bonuses.”


    They think we should swallow any old shit, just like wot they used to do.


    I remember thinking, as I breast-stroked through the salty sea, turds bobbing past, port and starboard, that I had finally found my calling. "I will go into politics!" I announced to the empty beach. "To make sure nobody does anything to fix this."
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 37,294

    One aspect of the “Benin Bronzes” story that hasn’t been much explored is “where did the bronze come from?” Turns out, the Rheinland. How did it get to Benin? From Portuguese slave traders who used it to pay for slaves- which Benin provided. How did the British get them? After a raid to suppress then stop said Slave Trade.

    https://afrikanfrontier.com/arts/unveiling-the-origins-of-benin-bronzes-new-research-reveals-german-rhineland-brass-manillas/

    So we should return them to said former slavers for them to disappear into a private collection?

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/berlins-benin-bronze-return-a-fiasco-as-artefacts-vanish-jq9xsn9cf

    Eh? I don’t think even the excuses at the time suggested that the1897 raid that pillaged the bronzes was to stop the slave trade.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 23,503

    My word.

    SNP treasurer Colin Beattie was on holiday when police went to arrest him

    Police officers investigating the SNP’s finances failed to arrest the party’s treasurer on the same day they raided Nicola Sturgeon’s home because he was on holiday in Tuscany.

    Officers turned up at Colin Beattie’s large Georgian home in Eskbank, Dalkeith, on April 5, as part of a co-ordinated swoop on him and Peter Murrell, the former SNP chief executive who is married to the former first minister. They simultaneously carried out a search of the party’s Edinburgh headquarters and seized a camper van from outside the home of Murrell’s mother in Dunfermline.

    However, the MSP for Midlothian North & Musselburgh was holidaying in Italy during Holyrood’s Easter recess. Officers targeted him again 13 days later, on the day that MSPs returned to the Scottish parliament when it was guaranteed he would be back in the country.

    The Times has learnt that Beattie was told of the earlier arrest attempt while being questioned under caution. Both he and Murrell were released without charge pending further inquiries. Beattie resigned as treasurer; Murrell had stepped down in March.

    The timing of Beattie’s arrest overshadowed Humza Yousaf’s first major speech to the Scottish parliament and prompted claims that the timing of the raid was politically motivated. “It would have been better for us if Colin had just been at home,” said one senior figure.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-treasurer-colin-beattie-was-on-holiday-when-police-went-to-arrest-him-fbsgds83j

    Was he on holiday in the camper van?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 12,203
    Scott_xP said:

    There is no PMQs that has ever taken place that Quentin Letts of The Times does not report has been won by the Tory PM.

    @DAaronovitch

    I couldn't say this while I was at @thetimes as it would have been bad manners. But how that witless throwback Quentin Letts holds his job when Rob Hutton is out there is one of the mysteries of modern British journalism. But what do I know?
    Letts wrote a negative review of Hamilton, which I think tells you everything you need to know about his judgement.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 12,203
    Farooq said:

    Nigelb said:

    Water companies discover all of a sudden that they could have been spending more on their crumbling infrastructure.

    UK water companies offer apology and £10bn investment for sewage spills
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/18/uk-water-companies-offer-apology-and-10bn-investment-for-sewage-spills

    What say their apologists now ?

    I'm inclined to agree with this take.
    Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey said: “This apology and plan just don’t go far enough. For years water companies have arrogantly dismissed the public’s fears of rivers, lakes and coastlines being damaged by sewage discharges.

    “This announcement does nothing to match the billions water firms have paid out in dividends to overseas investors, or stop their CEOs being handed multimillion pound bonuses.”


    They think we should swallow any old shit, just like wot they used to do.


    I remember thinking, as I breast-stroked through the salty sea, turds bobbing past, port and starboard, that I had finally found my calling. "I will go into politics!" I announced to the empty beach. "To make sure nobody does anything to fix this."
    You can see how someone used to swimming in shit thought that they would feel at home in the Tory party.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 37,294
    Nigelb said:

    According to the Times dear old Angela Rayner was skewered by Oliver Dowden yesterday at PMQs

    Perhaps unsurprisingly the Guardian took the opposite view of their exchanges.
    Entirely off topic, I am having my third tustle with Covid. Seems to be about midway between the first (debilitating) and second (virtually asymptomatic). A pain.
    Dowden read Law at Trinity Hall, Cambridge, I don't need to watch the exchanges between him and Rayner to know he skewered her at PMQs.

    PS - The Daily Mail and Suella Braverman expect you to go into the office with Covid, otherwise you're a commie who wants to destroy the economy.
    He was crap.
    Sounded like a schoolboy.
    He was terrible, always on the verge of squeaking out his pitiful ‘zingers’.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,155
    “When sorrows come, they come not single spies but in battalions”. For Conservatives, the 2023 local elections brought battalions of sorrow indeed. The headline results were dire, but detailed analysis brings even worse news. As we saw last week, there is evidence that the Brexit realignment which drove Conservative success in 2019 is now beginning to unravel. This week, I show how anti-Conservative voting magnified Conservative losses in 2023.

    https://swingometer.substack.com/p/throw-the-rascals-out
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 1,624
    kamski said:

    One aspect of the “Benin Bronzes” story that hasn’t been much explored is “where did the bronze come from?” Turns out, the Rheinland. How did it get to Benin? From Portuguese slave traders who used it to pay for slaves- which Benin provided. How did the British get them? After a raid to suppress then stop said Slave Trade.

    https://afrikanfrontier.com/arts/unveiling-the-origins-of-benin-bronzes-new-research-reveals-german-rhineland-brass-manillas/

    So we should return them to said former slavers for them to disappear into a private collection?

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/berlins-benin-bronze-return-a-fiasco-as-artefacts-vanish-jq9xsn9cf

    "After a raid to suppress then stop said Slave Trade."

    Rubbish.

    Also Benin supposedly banned the sale of slaves in the 16th century.
    The Benin bronzes tbh seem to be one of the more straightforward* cases of something that should probably be returned to where it was taken from. But anyway their value (fairly obviously, surely) is not that of the intrinsic commodity value of the bronze, but the artistry of their creation.

    We enjoy these reductio ad absurdam arguments on here, but I don’t think it works here.


    *this does not mean it’s entirely straightforward. ‘Less complex’ maybe.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 51,793
    TimS said:

    Lib Dem policy clarification for Thursday morning.

    Davey is not proposing limiting the profits of privatised companies. The Lib Dem policy on water companies is fairly clear and sensible:

    - Enforce existing rules including more regularly taking companies that infringe to court, and increasing fines to levels that actually have an effect
    - Replace Ofwat with a regulator with more teeth
    - Set more ambitious binding water quality targets

    All things that are perfectly reasonable, and if they are enough to scare off foreign investment then perhaps that’s not the kind of rent-seeking foreign investment we want.

    A regulator with more teeth would limit profits.
    Though I acknowledge I'm probably more hard line than Davey on this.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,708

    My word.

    SNP treasurer Colin Beattie was on holiday when police went to arrest him

    Police officers investigating the SNP’s finances failed to arrest the party’s treasurer on the same day they raided Nicola Sturgeon’s home because he was on holiday in Tuscany.

    Officers turned up at Colin Beattie’s large Georgian home in Eskbank, Dalkeith, on April 5, as part of a co-ordinated swoop on him and Peter Murrell, the former SNP chief executive who is married to the former first minister. They simultaneously carried out a search of the party’s Edinburgh headquarters and seized a camper van from outside the home of Murrell’s mother in Dunfermline.

    However, the MSP for Midlothian North & Musselburgh was holidaying in Italy during Holyrood’s Easter recess. Officers targeted him again 13 days later, on the day that MSPs returned to the Scottish parliament when it was guaranteed he would be back in the country.

    The Times has learnt that Beattie was told of the earlier arrest attempt while being questioned under caution. Both he and Murrell were released without charge pending further inquiries. Beattie resigned as treasurer; Murrell had stepped down in March.

    The timing of Beattie’s arrest overshadowed Humza Yousaf’s first major speech to the Scottish parliament and prompted claims that the timing of the raid was politically motivated. “It would have been better for us if Colin had just been at home,” said one senior figure.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-treasurer-colin-beattie-was-on-holiday-when-police-went-to-arrest-him-fbsgds83j

    Was he on holiday in the camper van?
    Was his holiday paid for using the SNP credit card?
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 8,638
    Ghedebrav said:

    kamski said:

    One aspect of the “Benin Bronzes” story that hasn’t been much explored is “where did the bronze come from?” Turns out, the Rheinland. How did it get to Benin? From Portuguese slave traders who used it to pay for slaves- which Benin provided. How did the British get them? After a raid to suppress then stop said Slave Trade.

    https://afrikanfrontier.com/arts/unveiling-the-origins-of-benin-bronzes-new-research-reveals-german-rhineland-brass-manillas/

    So we should return them to said former slavers for them to disappear into a private collection?

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/berlins-benin-bronze-return-a-fiasco-as-artefacts-vanish-jq9xsn9cf

    "After a raid to suppress then stop said Slave Trade."

    Rubbish.

    Also Benin supposedly banned the sale of slaves in the 16th century.
    The Benin bronzes tbh seem to be one of the more straightforward* cases of something that should probably be returned to where it was taken from. But anyway their value (fairly obviously, surely) is not that of the intrinsic commodity value of the bronze, but the artistry of their creation.

    We enjoy these reductio ad absurdam arguments on here, but I don’t think it works here.


    *this does not mean it’s entirely straightforward. ‘Less complex’ maybe.
    I for one won't rest until Stonehenge is ground down to a fine powder and transported back to Wales
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 51,793

    There is no PMQs that has ever taken place that Quentin Letts of The Times does not report has been won by the Tory PM.

    Letts was pretty amusing - a quarter of a century back.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 26,137
    If 'drip-by-strip' is a typo, it's a good one!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 12,448
    An interesting interpretation of recent events in Ukraine.

    "Mykola Bielieskov
    @MBielieskov
    RU intensified 🚀 strikes after leaked grim JCS estimates of UA air
    defense capacity. RU aim is simple one - deplete UA interceptors stock&open avenues for RU piloted aviation. That’s why though UA air&missile defense performed well it’s not the time to fall into complacency."


    https://twitter.com/MBielieskov/status/1659081784624136193

    Britain's latest package of defence assistance did include more air defence missiles, so hopefully Russia will run out of long-range missiles a long time before Ukraine runs out of air defence missiles.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 26,137

    According to the Times dear old Angela Rayner was skewered by Oliver Dowden yesterday at PMQs

    Perhaps unsurprisingly the Guardian took the opposite view of their exchanges.
    Entirely off topic, I am having my third tustle with Covid. Seems to be about midway between the first (debilitating) and second (virtually asymptomatic). A pain.
    Dowden read Law at Trinity Hall, Cambridge, I don't need to watch the exchanges between him and Rayner to know he skewered her at PMQs.

    PS - The Daily Mail and Suella Braverman expect you to go into the office with Covid, otherwise you're a commie who wants to destroy the economy.
    Covid shouldn't stop you going to the office, spread the word - and the virus!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 44,761

    An interesting interpretation of recent events in Ukraine.

    "Mykola Bielieskov
    @MBielieskov
    RU intensified 🚀 strikes after leaked grim JCS estimates of UA air
    defense capacity. RU aim is simple one - deplete UA interceptors stock&open avenues for RU piloted aviation. That’s why though UA air&missile defense performed well it’s not the time to fall into complacency."


    https://twitter.com/MBielieskov/status/1659081784624136193

    Britain's latest package of defence assistance did include more air defence missiles, so hopefully Russia will run out of long-range missiles a long time before Ukraine runs out of air defence missiles.

    If the enemy wants to open up avenues for piloted aviation, they first need to stop their planes and helicopters being shot down over Russia!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 51,793

    An interesting interpretation of recent events in Ukraine.

    "Mykola Bielieskov
    @MBielieskov
    RU intensified 🚀 strikes after leaked grim JCS estimates of UA air
    defense capacity. RU aim is simple one - deplete UA interceptors stock&open avenues for RU piloted aviation. That’s why though UA air&missile defense performed well it’s not the time to fall into complacency."


    https://twitter.com/MBielieskov/status/1659081784624136193

    Britain's latest package of defence assistance did include more air defence missiles, so hopefully Russia will run out of long-range missiles a long time before Ukraine runs out of air defence missiles.

    The Patriot system missiles are horribly expensive, at nearly $5m a pop.
    But the Russian Kinzhal they're shooting down is double that.
This discussion has been closed.