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Could LAB return as top Scottish party at the general election? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,162
edited May 2023 in General
imageCould LAB return as top Scottish party at the general election? – politicalbetting.com

At the 2010 General Election when the Tories returned to power there was no change in the seats in Scotland. Labour had 41 of the 69 seats and ended up with 41 of the 69 seats

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Comments

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    First like Labour(?)
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    edited May 2023
    Second like the SNP…

    Slightly more seriously, I find this one incredibly hard to call. I suspect the polarisation around Indy has made the "tartan Tories" unpalatable for most actual Tories. If Yousaf can restore a reputation for basic competence then maybe there'll be some transfers, but the clusterf*ck of the last few months makes that seem pretty unlikely.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    "Could" - worded like that and depending on how badly the SNP affair goes this is a definite QTWTAIY.

    "Will" - I'd be less sure and put it at about a 1 in 3, 1 in 4 chance, more likely that the SNP just edge it.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    edited May 2023
    Perhaps Nicola Sturgeon could stand in a Westminster seat.

    This would be great.

    It’s what Salmond did when he resigned as First Minister after losing the Indyref.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,253
    It would be interesting if Labour formed the national government and also the governments in Scotland and Wales.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,657
    Nothing succeeds like success. If somehow Labour start to win and be seen as winning, then they will start to win more.


  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited May 2023
    On a slightly related point, I wish Bill Forsyth would make some sort of sequel to Local Hero, or some sort of companion piece to it.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631

    It would be interesting if Labour formed the national government and also the governments in Scotland and Wales.

    First time since 2007?
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    LAB should be optimistic of getting at least 20 Scotland seats now. Still around 100 gains needed in England and Wales though for the overall majority.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,253
    Pro_Rata said:

    "Could" - worded like that and depending on how badly the SNP affair goes this is a definite QTWTAIY.

    "Will" - I'd be less sure and put it at about a 1 in 3, 1 in 4 chance, more likely that the SNP just edge it.

    The problem I have with the SNP problems is why? Why do these weird, nearly ridiculous things?

    The UK political system is cheap. Paying for the operations of a whole political party is perfectly feasible for someone not especially rich.

    Accounting systems are generally setup to detect fraudulent removal of money from organisations. I suspect that someone pushing money in would be less noticeable. There is some history on that, in non-political party organisations.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited May 2023
    (FPT)
    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Update from the trenches, or rather from a trencherman over dinner last night. An old China hand, actually, spent the past 30+ years in HK and was deported/singled out by the authorities there for his outspokenness.

    Very pessimistic/realistic about China and Taiwan. Gives it 3-5 years before they try to retake and doesn't think The West will do much about it. Even if China sinks the US pacific fleet which I think is a bit of a stretch but I suppose you pays your money on this one and it's what Xi thinks not what I think.

    I can see China blockading Taiwan, but launching an invasion over 150 miles of Ocean against a very well equipped opponent would be very brave.
    A proper blockade would be an act of war would it not ? It'd certainly wreck the world economically.
    Yes and yes. The calculus is whether the US proceeds to war over Taiwan.
    No, it's rather whether the US responds to China proceeding to war. It's not going to be the other way around.
    China blockades Taiwan and to do so destroys the US fleet and then does the US proceed to war with China as a result.
    That is a very good demonstration of the true meaning of begging the question.
  • WestieWestie Posts: 426

    Westie said:

    How do Carlist Loyalty Oath Takers cross-correlate with the SARSCoV2 vaccinated and unvaccinated?

    ¡Viva la muerte!
    Nice link :smile: I reckon oath refusers (O-) correlate strongly with vaccine refusers (V-).

    If true, it's something that many in the O-V+ and O+V- groups (middle class Republic types in the former, far right nationalists in the latter) might not want to talk about much. Ditto with the more grownup and less prejudiced mong the O+V+ types. (The less grownup would be fine with just locking all the O-V- types up.) Got to see the funny side.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    The Scotland shift, which began two or three years ago and long before the SNP woes, is very interesting and increases my confidence in a Labour landslide.

    Meanwhile I voted by post in today's locals. I voted for 3 LibDems and 1 Labour because I'm in a Lib-Con marginal and I will do anything to vote out the tories.

    The next General Election will be more of an anti-tory vote than most people on here recognise.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    Westie said:

    Westie said:

    How do Carlist Loyalty Oath Takers cross-correlate with the SARSCoV2 vaccinated and unvaccinated?

    ¡Viva la muerte!
    Nice link :smile: I reckon oath refusers (O-) correlate strongly with vaccine refusers (V-).
    Really? I'd have thought that people with a "rational", science-based approach to life would be more likely to take the vaccine and less likely to take the oath.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,788
    Ms. Heathener, the anti-Conservative sentiment is one reason I remain confident of a Labour most seats result, if not an outright majority.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    Heathener said:

    The Scotland shift, which began two or three years ago and long before the SNP woes, is very interesting and increases my confidence in a Labour landslide.

    Meanwhile I voted by post in today's locals. I voted for 3 LibDems and 1 Labour because I'm in a Lib-Con marginal and I will do anything to vote out the tories.

    The next General Election will be more of an anti-tory vote than most people on here recognise.

    Indeed ; that's what John Curtice seems to think, aswell.
  • WestieWestie Posts: 426

    Westie said:

    Westie said:

    How do Carlist Loyalty Oath Takers cross-correlate with the SARSCoV2 vaccinated and unvaccinated?

    ¡Viva la muerte!
    Nice link :smile: I reckon oath refusers (O-) correlate strongly with vaccine refusers (V-).
    Really? I'd have thought that people with a "rational", science-based approach to life would be more likely to take the vaccine and less likely to take the oath.
    Agreed. But they are a small section of the population.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561

    On a slightly related point, I wish Bill Forsyth would make some sort of sequel to Local Hero, or some sort of companion piece to it.

    No. Don't.

    Local Hero was a near-perfect stand alone piece. There would be nothing to be improved upon, only the very real risk of destroying the joy of the original.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,385

    It would be interesting if Labour formed the national government and also the governments in Scotland and Wales.

    First time since 2007?
    First time since 2003, surely? Salmond led the Scottish Parliament after 2007.

    Remarkable to think that in just eight years Labour went from controlling every major body on the mainland to by 2015 controlling just Wales.

    And in 2016 although they won back London they couldn't even manage second in Scotland.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    ydoethur said:

    It would be interesting if Labour formed the national government and also the governments in Scotland and Wales.

    First time since 2007?
    First time since 2003, surely? Salmond led the Scottish Parliament after 2007.

    Remarkable to think that in just eight years Labour went from controlling every major body on the mainland to by 2015 controlling just Wales.

    And in 2016 although they won back London they couldn't even manage second in Scotland.
    Well they were in power up to 2007.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    On a slightly related point, I wish Bill Forsyth would make some sort of sequel to Local Hero, or some sort of companion piece to it.

    He's rather old to go back to a profession he gave up on a couple of decades ago.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    edited May 2023

    Westie said:

    Westie said:

    How do Carlist Loyalty Oath Takers cross-correlate with the SARSCoV2 vaccinated and unvaccinated?

    ¡Viva la muerte!
    Nice link :smile: I reckon oath refusers (O-) correlate strongly with vaccine refusers (V-).
    Really? I'd have thought that people with a "rational", science-based approach to life would be more likely to take the vaccine and less likely to take the oath.
    I wonder how many people will take the Oath. I find it hard to even guess.

    Would people buy or sell at 10%?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited May 2023

    On a slightly related point, I wish Bill Forsyth would make some sort of sequel to Local Hero, or some sort of companion piece to it.

    No. Don't.

    Local Hero was a near-perfect stand alone piece. There would be nothing to be improved upon, only the very real risk of destroying the joy of the original.
    I did think this and agree with you for many years, but then on re-watching it last night after returning home from the pub, where there was such a clamour against Sue Gray, it struck me as containing so many elements that are missing from 2000's cinema, that even a misfired sequel could be a relative triumph.

    Another possibility could be some sort of mild companion piece rather than direct sequel ; all sorts of later luminaries were in it, like Peter Capaldi, but with Bill getting on in years, it looks unlikely.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,253
    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Update from the trenches, or rather from a trencherman over dinner last night. An old China hand, actually, spent the past 30+ years in HK and was deported/singled out by the authorities there for his outspokenness.

    Very pessimistic/realistic about China and Taiwan. Gives it 3-5 years before they try to retake and doesn't think The West will do much about it. Even if China sinks the US pacific fleet which I think is a bit of a stretch but I suppose you pays your money on this one and it's what Xi thinks not what I think.

    I can see China blockading Taiwan, but launching an invasion over 150 miles of Ocean against a very well equipped opponent would be very brave.
    A proper blockade would be an act of war would it not ? It'd certainly wreck the world economically.
    Yes and yes. The calculus is whether the US proceeds to war over Taiwan.
    No, it's rather whether the US responds to China proceeding to war. It's not going to be the other way around.
    China blockades Taiwan and to do so destroys the US fleet and then does the US proceed to war with China as a result.
    That is a very good demonstration of the true meaning of begging the question.
    Within a day or 2 of a Chinese blockade going into effect, Taiwan would announce its possession of nuclear weapons.

    Like Japan, they are very careful to adhere to the NPT. They have a large quality of plutonium from the reactors they have. Almost certainly tritium.

    They have a variety of advanced missiles to carry a weapon - including supersonic, stealthy cruise missiles.

    The engineering to create a nuclear weapons is, in modern terms, quite simple, for a single stage device. They would probably go straight to the 2 point systems, with air gaps. Boosting (tritium injection) would be next up.

    Because of the accuracy of modern guidance systems, the probable yields of such devices - say 100Kt - would be all that would be needed.

    The largest single stager ever built was the American Mk18 - 500Kt. But that required enriched uranium and was a very expensive and rather dangerous design. IIRC the French managed 150Kt+ from plutonium in a single stage, but details are scarce on that.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    Electoral Calculus translates the R&W Scottish Westminster poll into the following Scottish seats:

    Con 7 (+1)
    Lab 22 (+21)
    LD 5 (+1)
    SNP 25 (-23)

    That is before allowing for any unionist tactical voting, beyond any that which occured in 2019.

    I then added in parameters that provide for an extra 10% of Lab and LD voters being prepared to vote tactically in Scotland, which is a pretty minimal assumption, and also ignores completely any possibility of Scottish Conservatives voting tactically for unionist Labour aka Mr D Ross. Even on that minimalist assumption, Labour then pick up an extra 2 seats at the expense of the SNP, so it becomes Lab 24, SNP 23, Con 7, LD 5 on the old boundaries. On the new boundaries, with 2 less Scottish seats overall, it would be Lab 23, SNP 23, Con 6, LD 5.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,788
    Mr. kinabalu, I'm a monarchist, but have no intention of talking to the television.

    Then again, I was also firmly against the clap for the NHS nonsense, so it might just be that I loathe outward demonstrations of that nature generally.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,206
    We have crossover in my area... What used to be the expensive local garage (now miles cheap than the supermarkets) has diesel 2p/l cheaper than petrol.

    Just so one knows how much we're all being ripped off, DA Roberts in Whitchurch (always a good benchmark for what fuel should cost) is currently at 134.9 for diesel and 139.9 for petrol.
    My local supermarket is 156.9 for diesel and 142.9 for petrol - no profiteering there on diesel at all obviously...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited May 2023

    On a slightly related point, I wish Bill Forsyth would make some sort of sequel to Local Hero, or some sort of companion piece to it.

    No. Don't.

    Local Hero was a near-perfect stand alone piece. There would be nothing to be improved upon, only the very real risk of destroying the joy of the original.
    I did think this and agree with you for many years, but then on re-watching it last night after returning home from the pub, where there was such a clamour against Sue Gray, it struck me as containing so many elements that are missing from 2000's cinema, that even a misfired sequel could be a relative triumph...
    And of course Sue Gray is a multi-competent previous pub owner. She could play the lead.

    If Acoba doesn't veto it.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    155.9 here for diesel is cheapest around at local garage. Tesco was 161.9 .
    I have an app that tells me where the cheapest fuel is within x25 miles and then its a question of working out if the distance to travel is worth the extra 2p or so off.....
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    Nigelb said:

    On a slightly related point, I wish Bill Forsyth would make some sort of sequel to Local Hero, or some sort of companion piece to it.

    No. Don't.

    Local Hero was a near-perfect stand alone piece. There would be nothing to be improved upon, only the very real risk of destroying the joy of the original.
    I did think this and agree with you for many years, but then on re-watching it last night after returning home from the pub, where there was such a clamour against Sue Gray, it struck me as containing so many elements that are missing from 2000's cinema, that even a misfired sequel could be a relative triumph...
    And of course Sue Gray is a multi-competent previous pub owner. She could play the lead.

    If Acoba doesn't veto it.
    Haha !
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,253
    Nigelb said:

    On a slightly related point, I wish Bill Forsyth would make some sort of sequel to Local Hero, or some sort of companion piece to it.

    No. Don't.

    Local Hero was a near-perfect stand alone piece. There would be nothing to be improved upon, only the very real risk of destroying the joy of the original.
    I did think this and agree with you for many years, but then on re-watching it last night after returning home from the pub, where there was such a clamour against Sue Gray, it struck me as containing so many elements that are missing from 2000's cinema, that even a misfired sequel could be a relative triumph...
    And of course Sue Gray is a multi-competent previous pub owner. She could play the lead.

    If Acoba doesn't veto it.
    Given that she ran a pub in Newry, she is probably more than competent as a landlord....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,253

    Heathener said:

    The Scotland shift, which began two or three years ago and long before the SNP woes, is very interesting and increases my confidence in a Labour landslide.

    Meanwhile I voted by post in today's locals. I voted for 3 LibDems and 1 Labour because I'm in a Lib-Con marginal and I will do anything to vote out the tories.

    The next General Election will be more of an anti-tory vote than most people on here recognise.

    Indeed ; that's what John Curtice seems to think, aswell.
    Yes. From what I see, it isn't a hatethon, as much as the Twitter types would like it to be. It's more - "The Tories again? No, not them" - a quiet, definite kind of thing.
  • WestieWestie Posts: 426

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Update from the trenches, or rather from a trencherman over dinner last night. An old China hand, actually, spent the past 30+ years in HK and was deported/singled out by the authorities there for his outspokenness.

    Very pessimistic/realistic about China and Taiwan. Gives it 3-5 years before they try to retake and doesn't think The West will do much about it. Even if China sinks the US pacific fleet which I think is a bit of a stretch but I suppose you pays your money on this one and it's what Xi thinks not what I think.

    I can see China blockading Taiwan, but launching an invasion over 150 miles of Ocean against a very well equipped opponent would be very brave.
    A proper blockade would be an act of war would it not ? It'd certainly wreck the world economically.
    Yes and yes. The calculus is whether the US proceeds to war over Taiwan.
    No, it's rather whether the US responds to China proceeding to war. It's not going to be the other way around.
    China blockades Taiwan and to do so destroys the US fleet and then does the US proceed to war with China as a result.
    That is a very good demonstration of the true meaning of begging the question.
    Within a day or 2 of a Chinese blockade going into effect, Taiwan would announce its possession of nuclear weapons.

    Like Japan, they are very careful to adhere to the NPT. They have a large quality of plutonium from the reactors they have. Almost certainly tritium.

    They have a variety of advanced missiles to carry a weapon - including supersonic, stealthy cruise missiles.

    The engineering to create a nuclear weapons is, in modern terms, quite simple, for a single stage device. They would probably go straight to the 2 point systems, with air gaps. Boosting (tritium injection) would be next up.

    Because of the accuracy of modern guidance systems, the probable yields of such devices - say 100Kt - would be all that would be needed.

    The largest single stager ever built was the American Mk18 - 500Kt. But that required enriched uranium and was a very expensive and rather dangerous design. IIRC the French managed 150Kt+ from plutonium in a single stage, but details are scarce on that.
    Might the ROC launch a nuclear response to a blockade, though? I'm guessing they don't have a massive nuclear first strike capability, but perhaps enough to deter a massive first strike from the PRC. How strong are ROC defences against PRC nukes?




  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    Jonathan said:

    Nothing succeeds like success. If somehow Labour start to win and be seen as winning, then they will start to win more.

    It certainly makes it even more difficult for the Conservatives to play the equivalent of the "Miliband in Salmond's pocket" card that was so effective in 2015 in England. Not that an image of Starmer in Yousless's pocket would ever have worked this time anyway. Starmer has not followed in the footsteps of Miliband's disasterous equivocation, and the hapless Yousless is seen as a threat only to himself.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    Mr. kinabalu, I'm a monarchist, but have no intention of talking to the television.

    Then again, I was also firmly against the clap for the NHS nonsense, so it might just be that I loathe outward demonstrations of that nature generally.

    I'm probably 3 years too slow, but I have just realised that "the Clap for the NHS" was surely breaking the UK lockdown rules.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    edited May 2023
    Heathener said:

    The Scotland shift, which began two or three years ago and long before the SNP woes, is very interesting and increases my confidence in a Labour landslide.

    Meanwhile I voted by post in today's locals. I voted for 3 LibDems and 1 Labour because I'm in a Lib-Con marginal and I will do anything to vote out the tories.

    The next General Election will be more of an anti-tory vote than most people on here recognise.

    I wouldn't be surprised. The Tory Party in its present incarnation is vile. I just received a text from an old friend saying she had just received her Austrian passport. Her late father was an Austrian refugee and apparently that entitles her and her whole family- children included -to an Austrian (EU) passport.

    There seems to be quite a scramble in London in particular to look for for loopholes that will get people EU passports. How ridiculous that people are having to go through hoops to get what we all had by right before this Tory/UKIP government took power
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986

    Ms. Heathener, the anti-Conservative sentiment is one reason I remain confident of a Labour most seats result, if not an outright majority.

    You're all politically engaged voters though. You're posting on a political betting site for a start. I expect a large swathe of the voting public while quite possibly in an anti-Tory mood isn't going to be so tactical when it comes to actual votes.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,253
    Westie said:

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Update from the trenches, or rather from a trencherman over dinner last night. An old China hand, actually, spent the past 30+ years in HK and was deported/singled out by the authorities there for his outspokenness.

    Very pessimistic/realistic about China and Taiwan. Gives it 3-5 years before they try to retake and doesn't think The West will do much about it. Even if China sinks the US pacific fleet which I think is a bit of a stretch but I suppose you pays your money on this one and it's what Xi thinks not what I think.

    I can see China blockading Taiwan, but launching an invasion over 150 miles of Ocean against a very well equipped opponent would be very brave.
    A proper blockade would be an act of war would it not ? It'd certainly wreck the world economically.
    Yes and yes. The calculus is whether the US proceeds to war over Taiwan.
    No, it's rather whether the US responds to China proceeding to war. It's not going to be the other way around.
    China blockades Taiwan and to do so destroys the US fleet and then does the US proceed to war with China as a result.
    That is a very good demonstration of the true meaning of begging the question.
    Within a day or 2 of a Chinese blockade going into effect, Taiwan would announce its possession of nuclear weapons.

    Like Japan, they are very careful to adhere to the NPT. They have a large quality of plutonium from the reactors they have. Almost certainly tritium.

    They have a variety of advanced missiles to carry a weapon - including supersonic, stealthy cruise missiles.

    The engineering to create a nuclear weapons is, in modern terms, quite simple, for a single stage device. They would probably go straight to the 2 point systems, with air gaps. Boosting (tritium injection) would be next up.

    Because of the accuracy of modern guidance systems, the probable yields of such devices - say 100Kt - would be all that would be needed.

    The largest single stager ever built was the American Mk18 - 500Kt. But that required enriched uranium and was a very expensive and rather dangerous design. IIRC the French managed 150Kt+ from plutonium in a single stage, but details are scarce on that.
    Might the ROC launch a nuclear response to a blockade, though? I'm guessing they don't have a massive nuclear first strike capability, but perhaps enough to deter a massive first strike from the PRC. How strong are ROC defences against PRC nukes?

    Hard to say.

    They are very keen on missile defence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_Bow etc

    It is worth noting that nuclear *defensive* weapons are extremely effective. A nuke burst over the open sea would smash cruise missiles into the water, at a range of kilometres. At high altitude - 100K feet - against incoming ballistic missiles, the Pk are above 1. That is, a single interceptor with a nuke warhead might well take out more than one incoming warhead.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvZGaMt7UgQ for example.

    The reason that the US and others turned away from this, was the advent of MIRV - making it cheaper to add warheads than defensive missiles. In addition, ABM sites can only protect a narrow corridor - a few miles wide, but hundreds of miles long, due to the physics of the intercepts. Nukes help with that, but not enough.

    In this case, the small size of Taiwan makes the problem easier - a couple of ABM sites could well defend the whole island.

    It is worth noting that their largest SAM systems could carry the kind of nuclear warhead I outlined above.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    eristdoof said:

    Mr. kinabalu, I'm a monarchist, but have no intention of talking to the television.

    Then again, I was also firmly against the clap for the NHS nonsense, so it might just be that I loathe outward demonstrations of that nature generally.

    I'm probably 3 years too slow, but I have just realised that "the Clap for the NHS" was surely breaking the UK lockdown rules.
    People were always allowed in their own gardens/front doorsteps etc.
  • WestieWestie Posts: 426
    So far, the spectacular or otherwise symbolic attacks in this war (Kerch bridge, assassination of Dugin's daughter, drones over Kremlin) seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia. A possible exception being Nordstream in the event it was Russia that did it which I reckon is low-probability.

    Could this change or doesn't the Russian command care about this stuff because the assessment is they've got the population with them and the pendulum is swinging towards autarky anyway?

    A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    TimS said:

    Ms. Heathener, the anti-Conservative sentiment is one reason I remain confident of a Labour most seats result, if not an outright majority.

    You're all politically engaged voters though. You're posting on a political betting site for a start. I expect a large swathe of the voting public while quite possibly in an anti-Tory mood isn't going to be so tactical when it comes to actual votes.
    Probably not, but I expect it still to have a fairly strong effect in a number of seats targeted by either the LibDems or Labour where the sitting Conservative has a plurality that falls significantly short of an absolute majority.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986

    Electoral Calculus translates the R&W Scottish Westminster poll into the following Scottish seats:

    Con 7 (+1)
    Lab 22 (+21)
    LD 5 (+1)
    SNP 25 (-23)

    That is before allowing for any unionist tactical voting, beyond any that which occured in 2019.

    I then added in parameters that provide for an extra 10% of Lab and LD voters being prepared to vote tactically in Scotland, which is a pretty minimal assumption, and also ignores completely any possibility of Scottish Conservatives voting tactically for unionist Labour aka Mr D Ross. Even on that minimalist assumption, Labour then pick up an extra 2 seats at the expense of the SNP, so it becomes Lab 24, SNP 23, Con 7, LD 5 on the old boundaries. On the new boundaries, with 2 less Scottish seats overall, it would be Lab 23, SNP 23, Con 6, LD 5.

    An interesting new phenomenon to look out for I think will be one-sided unionist tactical voting. Anecdotally there seems to be some of that in the air among my Scottish based colleagues.

    i.e. erstwhile Tory voters, as well as Lib Dems and Greens, voting Labour or Lib Dem in L/LD-SNP marginals; but LLG supporters not returning the favour in Tory-SNP marginals. That would potentially deliver more seats than expected to the SNP but also increase the scale of the anti-Tory seat majority at Westminster.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    Foxy said:

    eristdoof said:

    Mr. kinabalu, I'm a monarchist, but have no intention of talking to the television.

    Then again, I was also firmly against the clap for the NHS nonsense, so it might just be that I loathe outward demonstrations of that nature generally.

    I'm probably 3 years too slow, but I have just realised that "the Clap for the NHS" was surely breaking the UK lockdown rules.
    People were always allowed in their own gardens/front doorsteps etc.
    If it had been 'The Clap for this government' I'm sure it would have had universal approval.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    eristdoof said:

    Mr. kinabalu, I'm a monarchist, but have no intention of talking to the television.

    Then again, I was also firmly against the clap for the NHS nonsense, so it might just be that I loathe outward demonstrations of that nature generally.

    I'm probably 3 years too slow, but I have just realised that "the Clap for the NHS" was surely breaking the UK lockdown rules.
    The strange things some people think.
  • WestieWestie Posts: 426
    Foxy said:

    eristdoof said:

    Mr. kinabalu, I'm a monarchist, but have no intention of talking to the television.

    Then again, I was also firmly against the clap for the NHS nonsense, so it might just be that I loathe outward demonstrations of that nature generally.

    I'm probably 3 years too slow, but I have just realised that "the Clap for the NHS" was surely breaking the UK lockdown rules.
    People were always allowed in their own gardens/front doorsteps etc.
    And even if your door opened directly onto the street, you could always do an Eva Peron / Julian Assange.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    Westie said:

    So far, the spectacular or otherwise symbolic attacks in this war (Kerch bridge, assassination of Dugin's daughter, drones over Kremlin) seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia. A possible exception being Nordstream in the event it was Russia that did it which I reckon is low-probability.

    Could this change or doesn't the Russian command care about this stuff because the assessment is they've got the population with them and the pendulum is swinging towards autarky anyway?

    A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?

    I'd say the day-1 Hostomel airport air drop was definitely spectacular and a bit cocky, though less symbolic.

    The attacks on electricity and water infrastructure were certainly symbolic, and huge scale compared with anything Ukraine has done.

    But the one off spectaculars are generally more the preserve of the underdog in any event.

    The war has often felt like a Rugby match. It's like England vs a more talented but physically weaker side. We try to grind out a win through the overwhelming power of the forwards, spending extended periods in the opposition 22. Bakhmut is like a series of scrums and rolling mauls. They defend heroically. When they finally get the turnover their best bet is a lightning counter from the backs, the accumulation of long distance penalty kicks, and the occasional audacious drop goal. Everyone awaiting the much heralded counterattack is hoping it's going to be a quick turnover and a sprint to the tryline but the fear is it ends up with a few wasted punts up the field.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,349
    TimS said:

    Electoral Calculus translates the R&W Scottish Westminster poll into the following Scottish seats:

    Con 7 (+1)
    Lab 22 (+21)
    LD 5 (+1)
    SNP 25 (-23)

    That is before allowing for any unionist tactical voting, beyond any that which occured in 2019.

    I then added in parameters that provide for an extra 10% of Lab and LD voters being prepared to vote tactically in Scotland, which is a pretty minimal assumption, and also ignores completely any possibility of Scottish Conservatives voting tactically for unionist Labour aka Mr D Ross. Even on that minimalist assumption, Labour then pick up an extra 2 seats at the expense of the SNP, so it becomes Lab 24, SNP 23, Con 7, LD 5 on the old boundaries. On the new boundaries, with 2 less Scottish seats overall, it would be Lab 23, SNP 23, Con 6, LD 5.

    An interesting new phenomenon to look out for I think will be one-sided unionist tactical voting. Anecdotally there seems to be some of that in the air among my Scottish based colleagues.

    i.e. erstwhile Tory voters, as well as Lib Dems and Greens, voting Labour or Lib Dem in L/LD-SNP marginals; but LLG supporters not returning the favour in Tory-SNP marginals. That would potentially deliver more seats than expected to the SNP but also increase the scale of the anti-Tory seat majority at Westminster.
    In Conservative-held seats, in Scotland, the Unionist vote seems to have largely converged on the Conservatives.
  • TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Update from the trenches, or rather from a trencherman over dinner last night. An old China hand, actually, spent the past 30+ years in HK and was deported/singled out by the authorities there for his outspokenness.

    Very pessimistic/realistic about China and Taiwan. Gives it 3-5 years before they try to retake and doesn't think The West will do much about it. Even if China sinks the US pacific fleet which I think is a bit of a stretch but I suppose you pays your money on this one and it's what Xi thinks not what I think.

    I can see China blockading Taiwan, but launching an invasion over 150 miles of Ocean against a very well equipped opponent would be very brave.
    A proper blockade would be an act of war would it not ? It'd certainly wreck the world economically.
    Yes and yes. The calculus is whether the US proceeds to war over Taiwan.
    No, it's rather whether the US responds to China proceeding to war. It's not going to be the other way around.
    China blockades Taiwan and to do so destroys the US fleet and then does the US proceed to war with China as a result.
    If China destroys the US fleet then war would have begun already, just as it did with Japan attacking in the past.

    The only question the US would have is whether to respond, or to meekly surrender and lose the war. But war would have already begun the second their fleet was attacked.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    eristdoof said:

    Mr. kinabalu, I'm a monarchist, but have no intention of talking to the television.

    Then again, I was also firmly against the clap for the NHS nonsense, so it might just be that I loathe outward demonstrations of that nature generally.

    I'm probably 3 years too slow, but I have just realised that "the Clap for the NHS" was surely breaking the UK lockdown rules.
    People were always allowed in their own gardens/front doorsteps etc.
    If it had been 'The Clap for this government' I'm sure it would have had universal approval.
    A suspect Johnson has had "a cold of his willie" on several occasions.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,349
    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    The Scotland shift, which began two or three years ago and long before the SNP woes, is very interesting and increases my confidence in a Labour landslide.

    Meanwhile I voted by post in today's locals. I voted for 3 LibDems and 1 Labour because I'm in a Lib-Con marginal and I will do anything to vote out the tories.

    The next General Election will be more of an anti-tory vote than most people on here recognise.

    I wouldn't be surprised. The Tory Party in its present incarnation is vile. I just received a text from an old friend saying she had just received her Austrian passport. Her late father was an Austrian refugee and apparently that entitles her and her whole family- children included -to an Austrian (EU) passport.

    There seems to be quite a scramble in London in particular to look for for loopholes that will get people EU passports. How ridiculous that people are having to go through hoops to get what we all had by right before this Tory/UKIP government took power
    Every day, thousands of refugees flee this country for the Continent.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    The Scotland shift, which began two or three years ago and long before the SNP woes, is very interesting and increases my confidence in a Labour landslide.

    Meanwhile I voted by post in today's locals. I voted for 3 LibDems and 1 Labour because I'm in a Lib-Con marginal and I will do anything to vote out the tories.

    The next General Election will be more of an anti-tory vote than most people on here recognise.

    I wouldn't be surprised. The Tory Party in its present incarnation is vile. I just received a text from an old friend saying she had just received her Austrian passport. Her late father was an Austrian refugee and apparently that entitles her and her whole family- children included -to an Austrian (EU) passport.

    There seems to be quite a scramble in London in particular to look for for loopholes that will get people EU passports. How ridiculous that people are having to go through hoops to get what we all had by right before this Tory/UKIP government took power
    Every day, thousands of refugees flee this country for the Continent.
    In large boats?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,253
    TimS said:

    Westie said:

    So far, the spectacular or otherwise symbolic attacks in this war (Kerch bridge, assassination of Dugin's daughter, drones over Kremlin) seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia. A possible exception being Nordstream in the event it was Russia that did it which I reckon is low-probability.

    Could this change or doesn't the Russian command care about this stuff because the assessment is they've got the population with them and the pendulum is swinging towards autarky anyway?

    A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?

    I'd say the day-1 Hostomel airport air drop was definitely spectacular and a bit cocky, though less symbolic.

    The attacks on electricity and water infrastructure were certainly symbolic, and huge scale compared with anything Ukraine has done.

    But the one off spectaculars are generally more the preserve of the underdog in any event.

    The war has often felt like a Rugby match. It's like England vs a more talented but physically weaker side. We try to grind out a win through the overwhelming power of the forwards, spending extended periods in the opposition 22. Bakhmut is like a series of scrums and rolling mauls. They defend heroically. When they finally get the turnover their best bet is a lightning counter from the backs, the accumulation of long distance penalty kicks, and the occasional audacious drop goal. Everyone awaiting the much heralded counterattack is hoping it's going to be a quick turnover and a sprint to the tryline but the fear is it ends up with a few wasted punts up the field.
    The airport attack was simply stupid - they sent in a bunch of paratroops with nearly no support. Who couldn't have survived until the relief column got there, even on the original Russian timetable of a 3 day war.

    It made less sense and had less chance of success than Market Garden.

    Its more a huge, but very incompetent force trying to crush a smaller, but much more adaptable foe.

    Bakhmut is the closest they've got to trying to get the Ukranians to play their (the Russian) game.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,580
    Westie said:

    So far, the spectacular or otherwise symbolic attacks in this war (Kerch bridge, assassination of Dugin's daughter, drones over Kremlin) seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia. A possible exception being Nordstream in the event it was Russia that did it which I reckon is low-probability.

    Could this change or doesn't the Russian command care about this stuff because the assessment is they've got the population with them and the pendulum is swinging towards autarky anyway?

    A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?

    "seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia"

    That's because Russia's attacks are so massed that they don't seem to be spectacular or symbolic. A well-known Russian gets assassinated; everyone takes notice. Russia assassinates many Ukraine-leaning people in the occupied territories, and no-one blinks. The Russians send missiles to blow up residential blocks; yawn. A Russian bridge gets blown up, and it's a spectacular.

    "A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?"

    IMV two things:

    1) Much of their psywar capacity is not being aimed at western nations, but at explaining their 'position' to the developing world; countries that might be prepared to aid them.

    2) Their attacks in previous years had caused us to strengthen our systems. It's now much harder for them to create chaos (though it is still possible).
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    Pro_Rata said:

    "Could" - worded like that and depending on how badly the SNP affair goes this is a definite QTWTAIY.

    "Will" - I'd be less sure and put it at about a 1 in 3, 1 in 4 chance, more likely that the SNP just edge it.

    The old "if my granny had wheels would she be a wheelbarrow" question.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Update from the trenches, or rather from a trencherman over dinner last night. An old China hand, actually, spent the past 30+ years in HK and was deported/singled out by the authorities there for his outspokenness.

    Very pessimistic/realistic about China and Taiwan. Gives it 3-5 years before they try to retake and doesn't think The West will do much about it. Even if China sinks the US pacific fleet which I think is a bit of a stretch but I suppose you pays your money on this one and it's what Xi thinks not what I think.

    I can see China blockading Taiwan, but launching an invasion over 150 miles of Ocean against a very well equipped opponent would be very brave.
    A proper blockade would be an act of war would it not ? It'd certainly wreck the world economically.
    Yes and yes. The calculus is whether the US proceeds to war over Taiwan.
    No, it's rather whether the US responds to China proceeding to war. It's not going to be the other way around.
    China blockades Taiwan and to do so destroys the US fleet and then does the US proceed to war with China as a result.
    That is a very good demonstration of the true meaning of begging the question.
    Surely they would be toast before they destroyed the US fleet. Yanks would not be sitting twiddling their thumbs.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Update from the trenches, or rather from a trencherman over dinner last night. An old China hand, actually, spent the past 30+ years in HK and was deported/singled out by the authorities there for his outspokenness.

    Very pessimistic/realistic about China and Taiwan. Gives it 3-5 years before they try to retake and doesn't think The West will do much about it. Even if China sinks the US pacific fleet which I think is a bit of a stretch but I suppose you pays your money on this one and it's what Xi thinks not what I think.

    I can see China blockading Taiwan, but launching an invasion over 150 miles of Ocean against a very well equipped opponent would be very brave.
    A proper blockade would be an act of war would it not ? It'd certainly wreck the world economically.
    Yes and yes. The calculus is whether the US proceeds to war over Taiwan.
    No, it's rather whether the US responds to China proceeding to war. It's not going to be the other way around.
    China blockades Taiwan and to do so destroys the US fleet and then does the US proceed to war with China as a result.
    If China destroys the US fleet then war would have begun already, just as it did with Japan attacking in the past.

    The only question the US would have is whether to respond, or to meekly surrender and lose the war. But war would have already begun the second their fleet was attacked.
    Full scale war like that has that risk. Even a more minor confrontation has major economic implications that would dwarf the Russo-Ukranian war.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/apr/29/how-war-in-taiwan-could-mean-the-wheels-come-off-the-uk-economy
  • JPJ2JPJ2 Posts: 380
    Wulfrun_Phil:

    "It certainly makes it even more difficult for the Conservatives to play the equivalent of the "Miliband in Salmond's pocket" card that was so effective in 2015 in England. Not that an image of Starmer in Yousless's pocket would ever have worked this time anyway. Starmer has not followed in the footsteps of Miliband's disasterous equivocation, and the hapless Yousless is seen as a threat only to himself."

    I note with interest that this Redfield poll also shows that Yousaf is regarded as favoured for First Minister by 37-25 over Ross and by 31-29 over Sarwar. I am not a great admirer of Yousaf (I voted for Forbes in the leadership election) but he is not the no hoper that many outwith the ranks of the SNP would like to believe.

    In the UK GE a lot will depend on whether the SNP can successfully persuade the voters (in the teeth of the 95% pro Union editing by the media in Scotland) how distant Labour is from Scotland with its "Make Brexit Work" and no abolition of tuition fees etc.etc.

    If the contest appears close, there will be a tussle between vote SNP to achieve the balance of power and vote Labour to make sure the Tories are defeated (the latter not as convincing as might seem as voting SNP would also achieve that)



  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    Heathener said:

    The Scotland shift, which began two or three years ago and long before the SNP woes, is very interesting and increases my confidence in a Labour landslide.

    Meanwhile I voted by post in today's locals. I voted for 3 LibDems and 1 Labour because I'm in a Lib-Con marginal and I will do anything to vote out the tories.

    The next General Election will be more of an anti-tory vote than most people on here recognise.

    Bollocks Klaxon at full volume
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    LAB should be optimistic of getting at least 20 Scotland seats now. Still around 100 gains needed in England and Wales though for the overall majority.

    More Bollocks
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,253
    TimS said:

    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    The Scotland shift, which began two or three years ago and long before the SNP woes, is very interesting and increases my confidence in a Labour landslide.

    Meanwhile I voted by post in today's locals. I voted for 3 LibDems and 1 Labour because I'm in a Lib-Con marginal and I will do anything to vote out the tories.

    The next General Election will be more of an anti-tory vote than most people on here recognise.

    I wouldn't be surprised. The Tory Party in its present incarnation is vile. I just received a text from an old friend saying she had just received her Austrian passport. Her late father was an Austrian refugee and apparently that entitles her and her whole family- children included -to an Austrian (EU) passport.

    There seems to be quite a scramble in London in particular to look for for loopholes that will get people EU passports. How ridiculous that people are having to go through hoops to get what we all had by right before this Tory/UKIP government took power
    Every day, thousands of refugees flee this country for the Continent.
    In large boats?
    Well, Wogers friends lost their yachts, apparently.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,253
    malcolmg said:

    Heathener said:

    The Scotland shift, which began two or three years ago and long before the SNP woes, is very interesting and increases my confidence in a Labour landslide.

    Meanwhile I voted by post in today's locals. I voted for 3 LibDems and 1 Labour because I'm in a Lib-Con marginal and I will do anything to vote out the tories.

    The next General Election will be more of an anti-tory vote than most people on here recognise.

    Bollocks Klaxon at full volume
    What are your prediction for seats for Westminster and the Scottish parliament after the next election(s) ?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,349
    TimS said:

    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    The Scotland shift, which began two or three years ago and long before the SNP woes, is very interesting and increases my confidence in a Labour landslide.

    Meanwhile I voted by post in today's locals. I voted for 3 LibDems and 1 Labour because I'm in a Lib-Con marginal and I will do anything to vote out the tories.

    The next General Election will be more of an anti-tory vote than most people on here recognise.

    I wouldn't be surprised. The Tory Party in its present incarnation is vile. I just received a text from an old friend saying she had just received her Austrian passport. Her late father was an Austrian refugee and apparently that entitles her and her whole family- children included -to an Austrian (EU) passport.

    There seems to be quite a scramble in London in particular to look for for loopholes that will get people EU passports. How ridiculous that people are having to go through hoops to get what we all had by right before this Tory/UKIP government took power
    Every day, thousands of refugees flee this country for the Continent.
    In large boats?
    If you're bothered about corruption in government, Austria would be a curious choice of country to move to.
  • Sean_F said:

    TimS said:

    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    The Scotland shift, which began two or three years ago and long before the SNP woes, is very interesting and increases my confidence in a Labour landslide.

    Meanwhile I voted by post in today's locals. I voted for 3 LibDems and 1 Labour because I'm in a Lib-Con marginal and I will do anything to vote out the tories.

    The next General Election will be more of an anti-tory vote than most people on here recognise.

    I wouldn't be surprised. The Tory Party in its present incarnation is vile. I just received a text from an old friend saying she had just received her Austrian passport. Her late father was an Austrian refugee and apparently that entitles her and her whole family- children included -to an Austrian (EU) passport.

    There seems to be quite a scramble in London in particular to look for for loopholes that will get people EU passports. How ridiculous that people are having to go through hoops to get what we all had by right before this Tory/UKIP government took power
    Every day, thousands of refugees flee this country for the Continent.
    In large boats?
    If you're bothered about corruption in government, Austria would be a curious choice of country to move to.
    An Austrian passport entitles you to move to any EU country, much as a UK passport used to.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,253
    Sean_F said:

    TimS said:

    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    The Scotland shift, which began two or three years ago and long before the SNP woes, is very interesting and increases my confidence in a Labour landslide.

    Meanwhile I voted by post in today's locals. I voted for 3 LibDems and 1 Labour because I'm in a Lib-Con marginal and I will do anything to vote out the tories.

    The next General Election will be more of an anti-tory vote than most people on here recognise.

    I wouldn't be surprised. The Tory Party in its present incarnation is vile. I just received a text from an old friend saying she had just received her Austrian passport. Her late father was an Austrian refugee and apparently that entitles her and her whole family- children included -to an Austrian (EU) passport.

    There seems to be quite a scramble in London in particular to look for for loopholes that will get people EU passports. How ridiculous that people are having to go through hoops to get what we all had by right before this Tory/UKIP government took power
    Every day, thousands of refugees flee this country for the Continent.
    In large boats?
    If you're bothered about corruption in government, Austria would be a curious choice of country to move to.
    Or indeed, very right wing governments. Quite a few chaps in the Austrian parliament have serious elbow problems. Can't bend their arms.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    edited May 2023

    Westie said:

    So far, the spectacular or otherwise symbolic attacks in this war (Kerch bridge, assassination of Dugin's daughter, drones over Kremlin) seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia. A possible exception being Nordstream in the event it was Russia that did it which I reckon is low-probability.

    Could this change or doesn't the Russian command care about this stuff because the assessment is they've got the population with them and the pendulum is swinging towards autarky anyway?

    A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?

    "seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia"

    That's because Russia's attacks are so massed that they don't seem to be spectacular or symbolic. A well-known Russian gets assassinated; everyone takes notice. Russia assassinates many Ukraine-leaning people in the occupied territories, and no-one blinks. The Russians send missiles to blow up residential blocks; yawn. A Russian bridge gets blown up, and it's a spectacular.

    "A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?"

    IMV two things:

    1) Much of their psywar capacity is not being aimed at western nations, but at explaining their 'position' to the developing world; countries that might be prepared to aid them.

    2) Their attacks in previous years had caused us to strengthen our systems. It's now much harder for them to create chaos (though it is still possible).
    I think the Russian trolls have been quite successful. Despite the naked aggression and genocidal imperialism, Putin has significant support from the US right, and to a lesser extent parts of the European far right and far left. There is a lot of Putin support too in Africa, Middle East and Asia.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011
    I just want the Tories to lose seats in Scotland.

    I don't care who wins them, just as long as the Tories lose them.

    An SNP to Lab swing could benefit the Tories.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,785
    The header says "The Scots Tories and Greens are on the decline" but the poll image has the greens going from 1% in 2019 to 3% voting intention now and no mention of them in the post itself? Am I missing something? (I don't especially care - just puzzled)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    JPJ2 said:

    Wulfrun_Phil:

    "It certainly makes it even more difficult for the Conservatives to play the equivalent of the "Miliband in Salmond's pocket" card that was so effective in 2015 in England. Not that an image of Starmer in Yousless's pocket would ever have worked this time anyway. Starmer has not followed in the footsteps of Miliband's disasterous equivocation, and the hapless Yousless is seen as a threat only to himself."

    I note with interest that this Redfield poll also shows that Yousaf is regarded as favoured for First Minister by 37-25 over Ross and by 31-29 over Sarwar. I am not a great admirer of Yousaf (I voted for Forbes in the leadership election) but he is not the no hoper that many outwith the ranks of the SNP would like to believe.

    In the UK GE a lot will depend on whether the SNP can successfully persuade the voters (in the teeth of the 95% pro Union editing by the media in Scotland) how distant Labour is from Scotland with its "Make Brexit Work" and no abolition of tuition fees etc.etc.

    If the contest appears close, there will be a tussle between vote SNP to achieve the balance of power and vote Labour to make sure the Tories are defeated (the latter not as convincing as might seem as voting SNP would also achieve that)



    Quite so. Interesting to see how his voting has held up.

    Last point is often forgotten. As is the small matter that Labour is a Brexiter, right-wing party designed to appeal to Tory voters.

    Also: reading my Modern Railways magazine - there is an article yet again assessing the Scottish Government and railways, from an outsider. As usual, the magazine rates the SG and its civil servants highly for at least knowing what railways are for and trying with some success to develop and maintain them, much more so than any other administration in the UK.

    Quite a contrast with the ferries - but while the Unionists harp on them with some justification, it is also true that there are no nationalised ferries any longer in rUK. One wonders what the DTp would have made of Sealink in BR days, for instance.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,253
    Foxy said:

    Westie said:

    So far, the spectacular or otherwise symbolic attacks in this war (Kerch bridge, assassination of Dugin's daughter, drones over Kremlin) seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia. A possible exception being Nordstream in the event it was Russia that did it which I reckon is low-probability.

    Could this change or doesn't the Russian command care about this stuff because the assessment is they've got the population with them and the pendulum is swinging towards autarky anyway?

    A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?

    "seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia"

    That's because Russia's attacks are so massed that they don't seem to be spectacular or symbolic. A well-known Russian gets assassinated; everyone takes notice. Russia assassinates many Ukraine-leaning people in the occupied territories, and no-one blinks. The Russians send missiles to blow up residential blocks; yawn. A Russian bridge gets blown up, and it's a spectacular.

    "A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?"

    IMV two things:

    1) Much of their psywar capacity is not being aimed at western nations, but at explaining their 'position' to the developing world; countries that might be prepared to aid them.

    2) Their attacks in previous years had caused us to strengthen our systems. It's now much harder for them to create chaos (though it is still possible).
    I think the Russian trolls have been quite successful. Despite the naked aggression and genocidal imperialism, Putin has significant support from the US right, and to a lesser extent parts of the European far right and far left. There is a lot of Putin support too in Africa, Middle East and Asia.
    don't think Europe has been this united in a long time. Even the hard core "Must punish the UK over Brexit" types are extending olive branches. Sweden and Finland joining NATO....

    Yes, Hungary, but Orban and chums were always like that.

    And, as a counterpoint, the complete, utter defeat of East Politics in Germany.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,349

    Sean_F said:

    TimS said:

    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    The Scotland shift, which began two or three years ago and long before the SNP woes, is very interesting and increases my confidence in a Labour landslide.

    Meanwhile I voted by post in today's locals. I voted for 3 LibDems and 1 Labour because I'm in a Lib-Con marginal and I will do anything to vote out the tories.

    The next General Election will be more of an anti-tory vote than most people on here recognise.

    I wouldn't be surprised. The Tory Party in its present incarnation is vile. I just received a text from an old friend saying she had just received her Austrian passport. Her late father was an Austrian refugee and apparently that entitles her and her whole family- children included -to an Austrian (EU) passport.

    There seems to be quite a scramble in London in particular to look for for loopholes that will get people EU passports. How ridiculous that people are having to go through hoops to get what we all had by right before this Tory/UKIP government took power
    Every day, thousands of refugees flee this country for the Continent.
    In large boats?
    If you're bothered about corruption in government, Austria would be a curious choice of country to move to.
    Or indeed, very right wing governments. Quite a few chaps in the Austrian parliament have serious elbow problems. Can't bend their arms.
    They keep quite a bit of Hugo Boss in the wardrobe.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,349

    Foxy said:

    Westie said:

    So far, the spectacular or otherwise symbolic attacks in this war (Kerch bridge, assassination of Dugin's daughter, drones over Kremlin) seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia. A possible exception being Nordstream in the event it was Russia that did it which I reckon is low-probability.

    Could this change or doesn't the Russian command care about this stuff because the assessment is they've got the population with them and the pendulum is swinging towards autarky anyway?

    A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?

    "seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia"

    That's because Russia's attacks are so massed that they don't seem to be spectacular or symbolic. A well-known Russian gets assassinated; everyone takes notice. Russia assassinates many Ukraine-leaning people in the occupied territories, and no-one blinks. The Russians send missiles to blow up residential blocks; yawn. A Russian bridge gets blown up, and it's a spectacular.

    "A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?"

    IMV two things:

    1) Much of their psywar capacity is not being aimed at western nations, but at explaining their 'position' to the developing world; countries that might be prepared to aid them.

    2) Their attacks in previous years had caused us to strengthen our systems. It's now much harder for them to create chaos (though it is still possible).
    I think the Russian trolls have been quite successful. Despite the naked aggression and genocidal imperialism, Putin has significant support from the US right, and to a lesser extent parts of the European far right and far left. There is a lot of Putin support too in Africa, Middle East and Asia.
    don't think Europe has been this united in a long time. Even the hard core "Must punish the UK over Brexit" types are extending olive branches. Sweden and Finland joining NATO....

    Yes, Hungary, but Orban and chums were always like that.

    And, as a counterpoint, the complete, utter defeat of East Politics in Germany.
    Russia enjoys support among countries that can't offer much in the way of assistance to Russia.

    Those who see the invasion as justified revenge for Iraq/Palestine/Libya etc.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,253
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    TimS said:

    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    The Scotland shift, which began two or three years ago and long before the SNP woes, is very interesting and increases my confidence in a Labour landslide.

    Meanwhile I voted by post in today's locals. I voted for 3 LibDems and 1 Labour because I'm in a Lib-Con marginal and I will do anything to vote out the tories.

    The next General Election will be more of an anti-tory vote than most people on here recognise.

    I wouldn't be surprised. The Tory Party in its present incarnation is vile. I just received a text from an old friend saying she had just received her Austrian passport. Her late father was an Austrian refugee and apparently that entitles her and her whole family- children included -to an Austrian (EU) passport.

    There seems to be quite a scramble in London in particular to look for for loopholes that will get people EU passports. How ridiculous that people are having to go through hoops to get what we all had by right before this Tory/UKIP government took power
    Every day, thousands of refugees flee this country for the Continent.
    In large boats?
    If you're bothered about corruption in government, Austria would be a curious choice of country to move to.
    Or indeed, very right wing governments. Quite a few chaps in the Austrian parliament have serious elbow problems. Can't bend their arms.
    They keep quite a bit of Hugo Boss in the wardrobe.
    And their er... personal proclivities, despite their public hatethons on the subject, tend to Röhm a bit, don't they?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited May 2023

    Foxy said:

    Westie said:

    So far, the spectacular or otherwise symbolic attacks in this war (Kerch bridge, assassination of Dugin's daughter, drones over Kremlin) seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia. A possible exception being Nordstream in the event it was Russia that did it which I reckon is low-probability.

    Could this change or doesn't the Russian command care about this stuff because the assessment is they've got the population with them and the pendulum is swinging towards autarky anyway?

    A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?

    "seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia"

    That's because Russia's attacks are so massed that they don't seem to be spectacular or symbolic. A well-known Russian gets assassinated; everyone takes notice. Russia assassinates many Ukraine-leaning people in the occupied territories, and no-one blinks. The Russians send missiles to blow up residential blocks; yawn. A Russian bridge gets blown up, and it's a spectacular.

    "A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?"

    IMV two things:

    1) Much of their psywar capacity is not being aimed at western nations, but at explaining their 'position' to the developing world; countries that might be prepared to aid them.

    2) Their attacks in previous years had caused us to strengthen our systems. It's now much harder for them to create chaos (though it is still possible).
    I think the Russian trolls have been quite successful. Despite the naked aggression and genocidal imperialism, Putin has significant support from the US right, and to a lesser extent parts of the European far right and far left. There is a lot of Putin support too in Africa, Middle East and Asia.
    don't think Europe has been this united in a long time. Even the hard core "Must punish the UK over Brexit" types are extending olive branches. Sweden and Finland joining NATO....

    Yes, Hungary, but Orban and chums were always like that.

    And, as a counterpoint, the complete, utter defeat of East Politics in Germany.
    I think you and Foxy are both right here. There's interestingly residual support for Putin on the far right and far left in northern Europe, but what's interesting to me is that in countries where this used to be stronger - in my experience, like Italy and Greece, it's almost gone away, compared to what it used to be. The left in France, Greece and Italy have been vaguely pro-Russian since the Cold War, and now they're much more keeping mum. In France it's just the FN that seems to be maintaining more of a pro-Russian positon.

    I would also emphasise there's a difference between sympathetic to Putin, and taking a realist's approach to how this war will be resolved, which I would also take ; and I don't think it's going to end with Ukraine maintaining every inch of its pre-2014 territory.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    Foxy said:

    Westie said:

    So far, the spectacular or otherwise symbolic attacks in this war (Kerch bridge, assassination of Dugin's daughter, drones over Kremlin) seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia. A possible exception being Nordstream in the event it was Russia that did it which I reckon is low-probability.

    Could this change or doesn't the Russian command care about this stuff because the assessment is they've got the population with them and the pendulum is swinging towards autarky anyway?

    A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?

    "seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia"

    That's because Russia's attacks are so massed that they don't seem to be spectacular or symbolic. A well-known Russian gets assassinated; everyone takes notice. Russia assassinates many Ukraine-leaning people in the occupied territories, and no-one blinks. The Russians send missiles to blow up residential blocks; yawn. A Russian bridge gets blown up, and it's a spectacular.

    "A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?"

    IMV two things:

    1) Much of their psywar capacity is not being aimed at western nations, but at explaining their 'position' to the developing world; countries that might be prepared to aid them.

    2) Their attacks in previous years had caused us to strengthen our systems. It's now much harder for them to create chaos (though it is still possible).
    I think the Russian trolls have been quite successful. Despite the naked aggression and genocidal imperialism, Putin has significant support from the US right, and to a lesser extent parts of the European far right and far left. There is a lot of Putin support too in Africa, Middle East and Asia.
    don't think Europe has been this united in a long time. Even the hard core "Must punish the UK over Brexit" types are extending olive branches. Sweden and Finland joining NATO....

    Yes, Hungary, but Orban and chums were always like that.

    And, as a counterpoint, the complete, utter defeat of East Politics in Germany.

    Sure, it is a minority in Europe sympathetic to Putin, but present in the far left and right, including in the UK.

    I think Germanys Ostpolitik extends to Ukraine now, which is going to be a major market for German exports.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011
    Sean_F said:

    I voted for two independents, who were the only people who bothered to leaflet my house.

    A very brave choice.

    Marxists? Fascists? Who can tell?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    eristdoof said:

    Mr. kinabalu, I'm a monarchist, but have no intention of talking to the television.

    Then again, I was also firmly against the clap for the NHS nonsense, so it might just be that I loathe outward demonstrations of that nature generally.

    I'm probably 3 years too slow, but I have just realised that "the Clap for the NHS" was surely breaking the UK lockdown rules.
    How?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    Sean_F said:

    I voted for two independents, who were the only people who bothered to leaflet my house.

    A very brave choice.

    Marxists? Fascists? Who can tell?
    TBF, does it matter much at council level. Are they going to stop flytipping and fix the potholes?

    The BNP councillors were quite effective in Coalville some years ago. Apparently very good at sorting out problem neighbours with a personal visit.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    Sean_F said:

    I voted for two independents, who were the only people who bothered to leaflet my house.

    Nobody deserves my vote so they won't be getting it . First time I have abstained in over 50 years
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    Doing some data entry today and it's fair to say that Polling Is Brisk™
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011

    Sean_F said:

    I voted for two independents, who were the only people who bothered to leaflet my house.

    Nobody deserves my vote so they won't be getting it . First time I have abstained in over 50 years
    So cock and balls then?
  • juniusjunius Posts: 73
    This morning, I took a selection of my outdated passports to my Polling Station as my ID in order to vote. The Poll clerk accepted the photo in my cancelled UK Visitor's Passport valid from 1985 to 1986. That photo was taken 38 years ago. I have since changed significantly. My hair in the photo was almost black - and it is now totally white. So I wore a cap, and the colour of my hair couldn't be seen. I was given a ballot paper and voted. What a time wasting nonsense this this having to produce ID is.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,149
    edited May 2023

    Sean_F said:

    I voted for two independents, who were the only people who bothered to leaflet my house.

    A very brave choice.

    Marxists? Fascists? Who can tell?
    Firstly, presumably their leaflets provided some indication of their broad political leanings.

    Secondly, if they do turn out to be decidedly odd, I am not sure they present all that much risk of bringing about a revolution from the bully pulpit that is being the local councillor for Little Tittingham ward in the district of South West Soddingshire, or whatever it is.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,253
    edited May 2023
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Westie said:

    So far, the spectacular or otherwise symbolic attacks in this war (Kerch bridge, assassination of Dugin's daughter, drones over Kremlin) seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia. A possible exception being Nordstream in the event it was Russia that did it which I reckon is low-probability.

    Could this change or doesn't the Russian command care about this stuff because the assessment is they've got the population with them and the pendulum is swinging towards autarky anyway?

    A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?

    "seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia"

    That's because Russia's attacks are so massed that they don't seem to be spectacular or symbolic. A well-known Russian gets assassinated; everyone takes notice. Russia assassinates many Ukraine-leaning people in the occupied territories, and no-one blinks. The Russians send missiles to blow up residential blocks; yawn. A Russian bridge gets blown up, and it's a spectacular.

    "A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?"

    IMV two things:

    1) Much of their psywar capacity is not being aimed at western nations, but at explaining their 'position' to the developing world; countries that might be prepared to aid them.

    2) Their attacks in previous years had caused us to strengthen our systems. It's now much harder for them to create chaos (though it is still possible).
    I think the Russian trolls have been quite successful. Despite the naked aggression and genocidal imperialism, Putin has significant support from the US right, and to a lesser extent parts of the European far right and far left. There is a lot of Putin support too in Africa, Middle East and Asia.
    don't think Europe has been this united in a long time. Even the hard core "Must punish the UK over Brexit" types are extending olive branches. Sweden and Finland joining NATO....

    Yes, Hungary, but Orban and chums were always like that.

    And, as a counterpoint, the complete, utter defeat of East Politics in Germany.

    Sure, it is a minority in Europe sympathetic to Putin, but present in the far left and right, including in the UK.

    I think Germanys Ostpolitik extends to Ukraine now, which is going to be a major market for German exports.
    I think you are stretching it is say that Germany's policy to Ukraine is Ostpolitik II or something.

    Those advocating Ostpolitik have been comprehensively and utterly defeated in German politics.

    The policy towards Ukraine is something new - not outreach to a *foreign* country, but an embrace of a country that is very actively seeking to be European in every sense.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    Not just 'Could they', I think SLab are probably more likely than not to win most seats in Scotland in 2024. Gonna be tough for SCon or the SNP to rebound much in the next year or so. SLab, like Starmer generally, may well win by default.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    TimS said:

    Electoral Calculus translates the R&W Scottish Westminster poll into the following Scottish seats:

    Con 7 (+1)
    Lab 22 (+21)
    LD 5 (+1)
    SNP 25 (-23)

    That is before allowing for any unionist tactical voting, beyond any that which occured in 2019.

    I then added in parameters that provide for an extra 10% of Lab and LD voters being prepared to vote tactically in Scotland, which is a pretty minimal assumption, and also ignores completely any possibility of Scottish Conservatives voting tactically for unionist Labour aka Mr D Ross. Even on that minimalist assumption, Labour then pick up an extra 2 seats at the expense of the SNP, so it becomes Lab 24, SNP 23, Con 7, LD 5 on the old boundaries. On the new boundaries, with 2 less Scottish seats overall, it would be Lab 23, SNP 23, Con 6, LD 5.

    An interesting new phenomenon to look out for I think will be one-sided unionist tactical voting. Anecdotally there seems to be some of that in the air among my Scottish based colleagues.

    i.e. erstwhile Tory voters, as well as Lib Dems and Greens, voting Labour or Lib Dem in L/LD-SNP marginals; but LLG supporters not returning the favour in Tory-SNP marginals. That would potentially deliver more seats than expected to the SNP but also increase the scale of the anti-Tory seat majority at Westminster.
    Interesting. If you're right and it would be one sided, here's how the figures I gave based on the latest R&W poll might alter further.

    The EC projection that I gave didn't allow for any anti-SNP tactical voting by or to the Conservatives. Looking at the breakdown of Lab 24, SNP 23, Con 7, LD 5 that that projection produced on current boundaries, and seats where Lab or the LDs are challenging, there are a couple of SNP seats where Electoral Calculus project an SNP majority of only around 1%, in both cases over Labour. Paisley and Renfrewshire S (SNP maj 0.7%, Con vote 10.6%) and Livingston (SNP maj 1.2%, Con vote 15.3%). So those seats might also switch if a small number of Scottish Conservatives were induced to vote Labour in those Lab-SNP marginals, taking the Lab total up to 26 and the SNP down to 21 on current boundaries.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,253

    Sean_F said:

    I voted for two independents, who were the only people who bothered to leaflet my house.

    A very brave choice.

    Marxists? Fascists? Who can tell?
    Nihilists?


    Walter Sobchak: Nihilists! F*** me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,427
    junius said:

    This morning, I took a selection of my outdated passports to my Polling Station as my ID in order to vote. The Poll clerk accepted the photo in my cancelled UK Visitor's Passport valid from 1985 to 1986. That photo was taken 38 years ago. I have since changed significantly. My hair in the photo was almost black - and it is now totally white. So I wore a cap, and the colour of my hair couldn't be seen. I was given a ballot paper and voted. What a time wasting nonsense this this having to produce ID is.

    My wife used her driving license, the photo on which is of a similar vintage.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    edited May 2023
    junius said:

    This morning, I took a selection of my outdated passports to my Polling Station as my ID in order to vote. The Poll clerk accepted the photo in my cancelled UK Visitor's Passport valid from 1985 to 1986. That photo was taken 38 years ago. I have since changed significantly. My hair in the photo was almost black - and it is now totally white. So I wore a cap, and the colour of my hair couldn't be seen. I was given a ballot paper and voted. What a time wasting nonsense this this having to produce ID is.

    What was the policy towards voting while wearing a niqab, burka, or indeed a balaclava? Was it permitted before? Is it permitted now? How does that square with 'verifying' photo ID?

    ETA: Or, indeed, face masks of the type popular (or, at least, prevalent) during Covid
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385

    TimS said:

    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    The Scotland shift, which began two or three years ago and long before the SNP woes, is very interesting and increases my confidence in a Labour landslide.

    Meanwhile I voted by post in today's locals. I voted for 3 LibDems and 1 Labour because I'm in a Lib-Con marginal and I will do anything to vote out the tories.

    The next General Election will be more of an anti-tory vote than most people on here recognise.

    I wouldn't be surprised. The Tory Party in its present incarnation is vile. I just received a text from an old friend saying she had just received her Austrian passport. Her late father was an Austrian refugee and apparently that entitles her and her whole family- children included -to an Austrian (EU) passport.

    There seems to be quite a scramble in London in particular to look for for loopholes that will get people EU passports. How ridiculous that people are having to go through hoops to get what we all had by right before this Tory/UKIP government took power
    Every day, thousands of refugees flee this country for the Continent.
    In large boats?
    Well, Wogers friends lost their yachts, apparently.
    And they say nurses have it tough.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Foxy said:

    Westie said:

    So far, the spectacular or otherwise symbolic attacks in this war (Kerch bridge, assassination of Dugin's daughter, drones over Kremlin) seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia. A possible exception being Nordstream in the event it was Russia that did it which I reckon is low-probability.

    Could this change or doesn't the Russian command care about this stuff because the assessment is they've got the population with them and the pendulum is swinging towards autarky anyway?

    A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?

    "seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia"

    That's because Russia's attacks are so massed that they don't seem to be spectacular or symbolic. A well-known Russian gets assassinated; everyone takes notice. Russia assassinates many Ukraine-leaning people in the occupied territories, and no-one blinks. The Russians send missiles to blow up residential blocks; yawn. A Russian bridge gets blown up, and it's a spectacular.

    "A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?"

    IMV two things:

    1) Much of their psywar capacity is not being aimed at western nations, but at explaining their 'position' to the developing world; countries that might be prepared to aid them.

    2) Their attacks in previous years had caused us to strengthen our systems. It's now much harder for them to create chaos (though it is still possible).
    I think the Russian trolls have been quite successful. Despite the naked aggression and genocidal imperialism, Putin has significant support from the US right, and to a lesser extent parts of the European far right and far left. There is a lot of Putin support too in Africa, Middle East and Asia.
    don't think Europe has been this united in a long time. Even the hard core "Must punish the UK over Brexit" types are extending olive branches. Sweden and Finland joining NATO....

    Yes, Hungary, but Orban and chums were always like that.

    And, as a counterpoint, the complete, utter defeat of East Politics in Germany.
    New EU envoy recognises ‘willingness to rebuild relationship’ between UK and EU
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/04/new-eu-envoy-recognises-willingness-to-rebuild-relationship-between-uk-and-eu
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,253
    Taz said:

    TimS said:

    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    The Scotland shift, which began two or three years ago and long before the SNP woes, is very interesting and increases my confidence in a Labour landslide.

    Meanwhile I voted by post in today's locals. I voted for 3 LibDems and 1 Labour because I'm in a Lib-Con marginal and I will do anything to vote out the tories.

    The next General Election will be more of an anti-tory vote than most people on here recognise.

    I wouldn't be surprised. The Tory Party in its present incarnation is vile. I just received a text from an old friend saying she had just received her Austrian passport. Her late father was an Austrian refugee and apparently that entitles her and her whole family- children included -to an Austrian (EU) passport.

    There seems to be quite a scramble in London in particular to look for for loopholes that will get people EU passports. How ridiculous that people are having to go through hoops to get what we all had by right before this Tory/UKIP government took power
    Every day, thousands of refugees flee this country for the Continent.
    In large boats?
    Well, Wogers friends lost their yachts, apparently.
    And they say nurses have it tough.
    Quite. What about giving the nurses holidays on the confiscated yachts?

    We'd need to chip in for the diesel - running those things is murder....
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,412

    Sean_F said:

    I voted for two independents, who were the only people who bothered to leaflet my house.

    Nobody deserves my vote so they won't be getting it . First time I have abstained in over 50 years
    That only makes sense if you are standing as a candidate yourself. Otherwise someone will end up representing you, and you have given up the opportunity to influence who that might be.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011
    Selebian said:

    junius said:

    This morning, I took a selection of my outdated passports to my Polling Station as my ID in order to vote. The Poll clerk accepted the photo in my cancelled UK Visitor's Passport valid from 1985 to 1986. That photo was taken 38 years ago. I have since changed significantly. My hair in the photo was almost black - and it is now totally white. So I wore a cap, and the colour of my hair couldn't be seen. I was given a ballot paper and voted. What a time wasting nonsense this this having to produce ID is.

    What was the policy towards voting while wearing a niqab, burka, or indeed a balaclava? Was it permitted before? Is it permitted now? How does that square with 'verifying' photo ID?

    ETA: Or, indeed, face masks of the type popular (or, at least, prevalent) during Covid
    Voting in a balaclava has been delayed by two weeks.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,253
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Westie said:

    So far, the spectacular or otherwise symbolic attacks in this war (Kerch bridge, assassination of Dugin's daughter, drones over Kremlin) seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia. A possible exception being Nordstream in the event it was Russia that did it which I reckon is low-probability.

    Could this change or doesn't the Russian command care about this stuff because the assessment is they've got the population with them and the pendulum is swinging towards autarky anyway?

    A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?

    "seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia"

    That's because Russia's attacks are so massed that they don't seem to be spectacular or symbolic. A well-known Russian gets assassinated; everyone takes notice. Russia assassinates many Ukraine-leaning people in the occupied territories, and no-one blinks. The Russians send missiles to blow up residential blocks; yawn. A Russian bridge gets blown up, and it's a spectacular.

    "A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?"

    IMV two things:

    1) Much of their psywar capacity is not being aimed at western nations, but at explaining their 'position' to the developing world; countries that might be prepared to aid them.

    2) Their attacks in previous years had caused us to strengthen our systems. It's now much harder for them to create chaos (though it is still possible).
    I think the Russian trolls have been quite successful. Despite the naked aggression and genocidal imperialism, Putin has significant support from the US right, and to a lesser extent parts of the European far right and far left. There is a lot of Putin support too in Africa, Middle East and Asia.
    don't think Europe has been this united in a long time. Even the hard core "Must punish the UK over Brexit" types are extending olive branches. Sweden and Finland joining NATO....

    Yes, Hungary, but Orban and chums were always like that.

    And, as a counterpoint, the complete, utter defeat of East Politics in Germany.
    New EU envoy recognises ‘willingness to rebuild relationship’ between UK and EU
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/04/new-eu-envoy-recognises-willingness-to-rebuild-relationship-between-uk-and-eu
    Part of that is a worry, that's been expressed in France and Germany, that chunks of Eastern Europe are looking outside the EU for security and defence. Better to have the UK inside the tent etc.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Westie said:

    So far, the spectacular or otherwise symbolic attacks in this war (Kerch bridge, assassination of Dugin's daughter, drones over Kremlin) seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia. A possible exception being Nordstream in the event it was Russia that did it which I reckon is low-probability.

    Could this change or doesn't the Russian command care about this stuff because the assessment is they've got the population with them and the pendulum is swinging towards autarky anyway?

    A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?

    "seem all to have been against Russia rather than by Russia"

    That's because Russia's attacks are so massed that they don't seem to be spectacular or symbolic. A well-known Russian gets assassinated; everyone takes notice. Russia assassinates many Ukraine-leaning people in the occupied territories, and no-one blinks. The Russians send missiles to blow up residential blocks; yawn. A Russian bridge gets blown up, and it's a spectacular.

    "A few years ago Russia had a strong internet psywar capability. What happened?"

    IMV two things:

    1) Much of their psywar capacity is not being aimed at western nations, but at explaining their 'position' to the developing world; countries that might be prepared to aid them.

    2) Their attacks in previous years had caused us to strengthen our systems. It's now much harder for them to create chaos (though it is still possible).
    I think the Russian trolls have been quite successful. Despite the naked aggression and genocidal imperialism, Putin has significant support from the US right, and to a lesser extent parts of the European far right and far left. There is a lot of Putin support too in Africa, Middle East and Asia.
    don't think Europe has been this united in a long time. Even the hard core "Must punish the UK over Brexit" types are extending olive branches. Sweden and Finland joining NATO....

    Yes, Hungary, but Orban and chums were always like that.

    And, as a counterpoint, the complete, utter defeat of East Politics in Germany.

    Sure, it is a minority in Europe sympathetic to Putin, but present in the far left and right, including in the UK.

    I think Germanys Ostpolitik extends to Ukraine now, which is going to be a major market for German exports.
    I think you are stretching it is say that Germany's policy to Ukraine is Ostpolitik II or something.

    Those advocating Ostpolitik have been comprehensively and utterly defeated in German politics.

    The policy towards Ukraine is something new - not outreach to a *foreign* country, but an embrace of a country that is very actively seeking to be European in every sense.
    Yes, it's more of encouragement of Ukraine's Westenpolitik from their point of view.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    Mr. kinabalu, I'm a monarchist, but have no intention of talking to the television.

    Then again, I was also firmly against the clap for the NHS nonsense, so it might just be that I loathe outward demonstrations of that nature generally.

    Understandable. But there'd be nobody looking if you do it in private. And you do 'take the knee' occasionally, I'd imagine?
This discussion has been closed.