Not really surprising, I gather from my mum at Easter that oldies are still being called for vaccines.
We are. The virus is still about. Bro-and Sister-in-law had it a couple of weeks ago and friends had around the same time. Wasn’t nasty, but could have been. We’re in our 80’s.
I'd like to request that PB Brexiters refrain from saying that Scottish Independence (or indeed anything) needs a 'rigorous intellectual case'.
It's making me barf.
Thing is this - if you've watched Brexit, seen how its gone and the impacts its having, I find it hard to believe anyone can look at Scottish Independence and think, yes, this will work a lot better than Brexit did.
You can make lots of cases for why Scotland should be independent, but do so only with the sure and certain example of Brexit to guide likely outcomes.
I also think anyone who advocated Brexit ought to understand the motivation of those who seek Scottish Independence. Its why I found the SNP's complaints about Brexit so frustrating.
Scottish Independence was a lot more achievable before we Brexited. Now a lot tougher to achieve sensibly. And with the comparison with Northern Ireland it is going to be fun watching Remainer who are Pro Indy and Leavers who are Anti Indy flip their arguments on their head when they argue their cause because they will both be arguing the exact opposite of what they argued before.
As a Leaver, of Scottish heritage, who’s anti-Indy, it’s easy.
I’m British.
Smartypants. You knew what I meant as I can see from your like
So for me for instance as someone who was a remainer, my view is that firstly it is up to the Scots what they do and not me and if we hadn't left the EU, independence would have been viable within the EU if that is what they wanted, but now we have left it is far to difficult and damaging so I move from 'maybe' to 'no'. Still upto them, but I suggest they don't do it.
On the other hand if I were a leaver I would find it hypocritical to put up an argument of it being too difficult and damaging having completely ignored that with regard to leaving the EU.
The first paragraph I get and I understand
Why’s it hypocritical to say that (a) is harder than (b), so (b) is an acceptable risk but (a) is not
I'd like to request that PB Brexiters refrain from saying that Scottish Independence (or indeed anything) needs a 'rigorous intellectual case'.
It's making me barf.
Thing is this - if you've watched Brexit, seen how its gone and the impacts its having, I find it hard to believe anyone can look at Scottish Independence and think, yes, this will work a lot better than Brexit did.
You can make lots of cases for why Scotland should be independent, but do so only with the sure and certain example of Brexit to guide likely outcomes.
I also think anyone who advocated Brexit ought to understand the motivation of those who seek Scottish Independence. Its why I found the SNP's complaints about Brexit so frustrating.
They are both about National Sovereignty but the Sindy case (on that score) is stronger because it seeks to create it where it doesn't at present exist - as opposed to Brexit which took an already sovereign nation out of the EU where some of that sovereignty had erstwhile been voluntarily pooled.
Voluntarily by the politicians, very much not voluntarily by the people. Maastricht and Lisbon should have been put to the electorate by way of a referendum, as was the case in many other countries.
Bullshit , we are a sovereign nation , being treated as a colony.
Good afternoon Malc
Lovely sunny day here and hope it is so in Ayrshire
Until the Scots show an appetite for independence then they must be content with the union
The SNP need to gain majority support for independence, and recent events looks like it is a very long way from achieving that objective
Hello G, lovely here this week , hope you are well. I think now it is well proven that a political party cannot be trusted re Independence ( certainly not current SNP). It needs the SCottish people to demand it, we will see how it goes, given the way we are currently treated by our Lords and Masters down south it may be sooner than Little Englanders think. It si most certainly NOT going away.
I'd like to request that PB Brexiters refrain from saying that Scottish Independence (or indeed anything) needs a 'rigorous intellectual case'.
It's making me barf.
Thing is this - if you've watched Brexit, seen how its gone and the impacts its having, I find it hard to believe anyone can look at Scottish Independence and think, yes, this will work a lot better than Brexit did.
You can make lots of cases for why Scotland should be independent, but do so only with the sure and certain example of Brexit to guide likely outcomes.
I also think anyone who advocated Brexit ought to understand the motivation of those who seek Scottish Independence. Its why I found the SNP's complaints about Brexit so frustrating.
Scottish Independence was a lot more achievable before we Brexited. Now a lot tougher to achieve sensibly. And with the comparison with Northern Ireland it is going to be fun watching Remainer who are Pro Indy and Leavers who are Anti Indy flip their arguments on their head when they argue their cause because they will both be arguing the exact opposite of what they argued before.
As a Leaver, of Scottish heritage, who’s anti-Indy, it’s easy.
I’m British.
Smartypants. You knew what I meant as I can see from your like
So for me for instance as someone who was a remainer, my view is that firstly it is up to the Scots what they do and not me and if we hadn't left the EU, independence would have been viable within the EU if that is what they wanted, but now we have left it is far to difficult and damaging so I move from 'maybe' to 'no'. Still upto them, but I suggest they don't do it.
On the other hand if I were a leaver I would find it hypocritical to put up an argument of it being too difficult and damaging.
I don't think it's necessarily hypocritical. You can believe that the economics of Brexit are positive for Britain but that the economics of Sindy are negative for Scotland. Or you can believe that the economics of Brexit are negative for Britain, but worth it for other reasons, but that the economics of Sindy are negative for Scotland are negative and not worth it - either because the negatives are greater (which seems likely) or because the other reasons less relevant (which seems a more niche position). Neither of these positions are hypocritical.
(Or you can take the position which seems most common among English unionists that Sindy is bad because I like going to Edinburgh. This strikes me as not hypocritical but incoherent.)
I've got to tell you that had my head spinning, but I think I agree with you.
Cookie is right that it's not necessarily hypocritical.
Yes, it's also perfectly possible to be hypocritical!
It's also perfectly possible to say 'I support Brexit because I want it. And I oppose Sindy because I don't want it.' I'd suggest that's not hypocritical, though also not particularly sophisticated. (Though I'd suggest anyone on any side suggesting that this sort of analysis doesn't feature in their thinking is lying to themselves :-) )
Yes, let's forget about the H word. It gets overused. Point is, what kicked this off, is ardent PB Brexiters like (insert any one of many) stressing how important it is that Sindy is backed up by a rigorous intellectual case rather than cakeist 'sunlit uplands' with all the tough questions dodged.
What term best describes this? I'd suggest 'taking the piss'.
IF yours truly were still a humble grad student assigned to grade exams for eager university freshmen taking History 101 or similar, would be expectantly waiting for just the kind of ChaptBS (sp?) howlers that AndyJS has been uncovering, to appear on the next round of student papers and answers to essay questions.
Back in the day, my personal favorite was this response submitted to the question, "What was Manifest Destiny and its role in the expansion of the United States in the 19th century?"
Answer: "Manifest Destiny was the movement during the 19th century, of the American people ever-eastward, from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean."
Conceived and submitted with zero AI, and perhaps less than optimum IQ.
I'd like to request that PB Brexiters refrain from saying that Scottish Independence (or indeed anything) needs a 'rigorous intellectual case'.
It's making me barf.
Thing is this - if you've watched Brexit, seen how its gone and the impacts its having, I find it hard to believe anyone can look at Scottish Independence and think, yes, this will work a lot better than Brexit did.
You can make lots of cases for why Scotland should be independent, but do so only with the sure and certain example of Brexit to guide likely outcomes.
I also think anyone who advocated Brexit ought to understand the motivation of those who seek Scottish Independence. Its why I found the SNP's complaints about Brexit so frustrating.
Scottish Independence was a lot more achievable before we Brexited. Now a lot tougher to achieve sensibly. And with the comparison with Northern Ireland it is going to be fun watching Remainer who are Pro Indy and Leavers who are Anti Indy flip their arguments on their head when they argue their cause because they will both be arguing the exact opposite of what they argued before.
As a Leaver, of Scottish heritage, who’s anti-Indy, it’s easy.
I’m British.
Smartypants. You knew what I meant as I can see from your like
So for me for instance as someone who was a remainer, my view is that firstly it is up to the Scots what they do and not me and if we hadn't left the EU, independence would have been viable within the EU if that is what they wanted, but now we have left it is far to difficult and damaging so I move from 'maybe' to 'no'. Still upto them, but I suggest they don't do it.
On the other hand if I were a leaver I would find it hypocritical to put up an argument of it being too difficult and damaging.
I don't think it's necessarily hypocritical. You can believe that the economics of Brexit are positive for Britain but that the economics of Sindy are negative for Scotland. Or you can believe that the economics of Brexit are negative for Britain, but worth it for other reasons, but that the economics of Sindy are negative for Scotland are negative and not worth it - either because the negatives are greater (which seems likely) or because the other reasons less relevant (which seems a more niche position). Neither of these positions are hypocritical.
(Or you can take the position which seems most common among English unionists that Sindy is bad because I like going to Edinburgh. This strikes me as not hypocritical but incoherent.)
I've got to tell you that had my head spinning, but I think I agree with you.
Cookie is right that it's not necessarily hypocritical.
Yes, it's also perfectly possible to be hypocritical!
It's also perfectly possible to say 'I support Brexit because I want it. And I oppose Sindy because I don't want it.' I'd suggest that's not hypocritical, though also not particularly sophisticated. (Though I'd suggest anyone on any side suggesting that this sort of analysis doesn't feature in their thinking is lying to themselves :-) )
Yes, let's forget about the H word. It gets overused. Point is, what kicked this off, is ardent PB Brexiters like (insert any one of many) stressing how important it is that Sindy is backed up by a rigorous intellectual case rather than cakeist 'sunlit uplands' with all the tough questions dodged.
What term best describes this? I'd suggest 'taking the piss'.
It wasn't Leave voters who ensured that the 2016 referendum would be conducted blind. It was David Cameron.
Comments
We’re in our 80’s.
Why’s it hypocritical to say that (a) is harder than (b), so (b) is an acceptable risk but (a) is not
What term best describes this? I'd suggest 'taking the piss'.
Back in the day, my personal favorite was this response submitted to the question, "What was Manifest Destiny and its role in the expansion of the United States in the 19th century?"
Answer: "Manifest Destiny was the movement during the 19th century, of the American people ever-eastward, from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean."
Conceived and submitted with zero AI, and perhaps less than optimum IQ.