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Trump’s indictment not going down well with independents – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,218
edited April 2023 in General
imageTrump’s indictment not going down well with independents – politicalbetting.com

It won’t be long before WH2024 starts in earnest and the big question is whether it will be between 78 year old Trump and 81 year old Biden. These are the ages the two men will be on election day

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,952
    Buffs nails - exactly as I have been predicting.
  • Buffs nails - exactly as I have been predicting.

    Same here.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Political prosecution is a possibility, particularly in a deliberately politicised justice system. But there's not getting away that the ultimate argument of Trump's defenders, some more honestly than others, is that if you a Presidential candidate you should be immune from even being investigated. And that's just bloody insanity.

    It only applies to presidential candidates, weirdly - plenty of politicians at lower levels hae been prosecuted and convicted before.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    For the sake of Ukraine I hope Biden wins.

    We're supposed to believe that his statements which give a different view, and which Desantis aped to please the same base, are just talk and they wouldn't really do differently. Right.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    pm215 said:

    No, the cause of racism is racists.

    Papering over the cracks with performative bullshit won't improve the situation, much. Which is exactly what has happened to date.

    True, but this doesn't imply "therefore the problem is the performative bullshit and if we just stop doing that then everything will be great"...
    Sure, but Pagan2 identifies the issue.
    Pagan2 said:

    pm215 said:

    No, the cause of racism is racists.

    Papering over the cracks with performative bullshit won't improve the situation, much. Which is exactly what has happened to date.

    True, but this doesn't imply "therefore the problem is the performative bullshit and if we just stop doing that then everything will be great"...
    I don't think the argument is do nothing, the argument is the performative bullshit gives a false sense to an organisation that something has been done and therefore nothing more need to be.

    In many organisations if you transgress the solution seems to be send you on a refresher course going over things you already went over and that didn't do the job last time
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    The BBC write up of the Democratic also ran candidates seems almost keen for him not to be the candidate, but frustrated about it.

    He's the oldest US president ever and his approval ratings are mired in the low 40s. Doubt is creeping in whether Joe Biden will run for re-election.

    Those closest to Mr Biden, 80, insist his 2024 campaign launch is imminent, but the president himself does not appear to have made a final call.

    And while polls show a majority of Democrats want the party to nominate someone else, top prospects say they will not challenge Mr Biden if he runs.

    But what if he decides he will not?


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-63654388
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,049
    Trump, like Johnson, have had their moment in the spotlight. It’s over for them politically
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Taz said:

    Trump, like Johnson, have had their moment in the spotlight. It’s over for them politically

    Trump won't go as quietly as Boris.

    For one thing, whilst they deserve plenty of scorn, Tory MPs eventually decided they'd had enough and took action. People who might have been killed by a mob Trump incited are too cowardly to do other than support him - and if they appear reluctant now, it won't stop them bending knee when the time comes.

    Hence why it comes down to the Independents.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    All Biden has to do is not die.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    edited April 2023
    If this election is a rerun it feels all of a piece with the speedy decline of America, and the West in general

    A 78 year old, narcissistic bully possibly awaiting criminal charges, facing an 80 year old in obvious cognitive decline

    AGAIN

    And all the time, American cities rot from the core, and American life expectancy plunges below that of Panama.

    Fucksake America, SORT IT OUT
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    And there's more (and more serious) indictments to come. Trump is no way regaining the WH. But can the GOP somehow stop him handing it on a plate to the Dems? If so, how? This is the big question for me.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,780
    Is it a coincidence that just after an awesomely subtle pun on classical history appears on a thread, we get a new one?

    #stopthesteal
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    ydoethur said:

    Is it a coincidence that just after an awesomely subtle pun on classical history appears on a thread, we get a new one?

    #stopthesteal

    You're our Major Star!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546
    edited April 2023
    The problem with Trump as Republican candidate is he might well get elected.

    How we laughed when Labour chose Corbyn, but had the election campaign lasted another week, we’d have had PM Corbyn.

    Biden is only one big scandal or cock up away from Trump getting back in.
  • ydoethur said:

    Is it a coincidence that just after an awesomely subtle pun on classical history appears on a thread, we get a new one?

    #stopthesteal

    Happens to me all the time.

    Not just on classical history puns but puns in general.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,640
    Could still be De Santis or Haley.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,401
    ydoethur said:

    Is it a coincidence that just after an awesomely subtle pun on classical history appears on a thread, we get a new one?

    #stopthesteal

    BTW - did you see this?

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/apr/10/nasuwt-members-call-for-ofsted-abolition-to-end-reign-of-terror
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,780

    Could still be De Santis or Haley.

    And Putin might be right Zelenskyy is a Nazi war criminal.

    It’s about the same order of probability if the Orange Loon runs.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    Another US mass shooting .

    Another round of candle light vigils and pathetic platitudes to come .
  • So that golliwogs chap, he’s a right charmer.


  • Leon said:

    If this election is a rerun it feels all of a piece with the speedy decline of America, and the West in general

    A 78 year old, narcissistic bully possibly awaiting criminal charges, facing an 80 year old in obvious cognitive decline

    AGAIN

    And all the time, American cities rot from the core, and American life expectancy plunges below that of Panama.

    Fucksake America, SORT IT OUT

    Nothing left to save when the response to the latest shooting in a school which had an armed guard is "more armed guards". And then the morons saying that keep getting elected.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277

    Leon said:

    If this election is a rerun it feels all of a piece with the speedy decline of America, and the West in general

    A 78 year old, narcissistic bully possibly awaiting criminal charges, facing an 80 year old in obvious cognitive decline

    AGAIN

    And all the time, American cities rot from the core, and American life expectancy plunges below that of Panama.

    Fucksake America, SORT IT OUT

    Nothing left to save when the response to the latest shooting in a school which had an armed guard is "more armed guards". And then the morons saying that keep getting elected.
    True . Sad to say the US is fast turning into a failed state .
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Is it a coincidence that just after an awesomely subtle pun on classical history appears on a thread, we get a new one?

    #stopthesteal

    BTW - did you see this?

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/apr/10/nasuwt-members-call-for-ofsted-abolition-to-end-reign-of-terror
    No, although I have some idea of what’s in it.

    Bottom line is, at this moment OFSTED are in any case so utterly discredited it’s very difficult to see what the point of its continued existence is. Under Wilshaw or Bell it wasn’t popular but it was both respected and effective. Under Spielman, rather like our current ludicrously inept exam system, it’s become a box ticking exercise for all the wrong boxes using startlingly incompetent procedures.

    It’s even worse than it was under Woodhead, which is saying quite something.

    There has to be some kind of inspection regime, but if it is to have any relevance at all it needs to be started from scratch.
    Unfortunately, it's a box ticking exercise that can arrange for a school to be taken over and for many staff to then lose their jobs as a matter of routine.

    I get why school SLTs are terrified and will do all sorts of mad incantations to appease the gods.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,993
    Sean_F said:

    The problem with Trump as Republican candidate is he might well get elected.

    How we laughed when Labour chose Corbyn, but had the election campaign lasted another week, we’d have had PM Corbyn.

    Biden is only one big scandal or cock up away from Trump getting back in.

    Would we? It’s an intriguing conjecture - let’s say instead of 317-262 it ends 297-282 on seats. The SNP would be in a powerful position with its 35 seats but Labour officially wanted to wait a couple of years before a second referendum and still wanted to keep the provision in the gift of Westminster while STURGEON wanted the power to call a referendum to be vested in Holyrood.

    Do we assume Plaid and the Greens would back Labour? The LDs wouldn’t and with SF absent you need 322 for a majority and Con plus DUP plus LD plus Sylvia Harmon would be 320 though the price of such a coalition especially with regard to the EU Referendum would have been heavy.

    Conservatives might have had a choice - abandon Brexit and remain in office or stay true to the Referendum result and allow Corbyn to be Prime Minister?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    kle4 said:

    The BBC write up of the Democratic also ran candidates seems almost keen for him not to be the candidate, but frustrated about it.

    He's the oldest US president ever and his approval ratings are mired in the low 40s. Doubt is creeping in whether Joe Biden will run for re-election.

    Those closest to Mr Biden, 80, insist his 2024 campaign launch is imminent, but the president himself does not appear to have made a final call.

    And while polls show a majority of Democrats want the party to nominate someone else, top prospects say they will not challenge Mr Biden if he runs.

    But what if he decides he will not?


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-63654388

    The "will he or won't he?" question re: Joe Biden in 2024, is rather reminiscent of the same query asked about Franklin Roosevelt in 1940.

    Of course MANY differences between those two incumbent presidents AND those two years!

    However, note these similarities:

    > 1940 & 2024 (am guessing) both years in which USA was on sidelines to major international conflicts yet nevertheless deeply engaged AND domestically divided.

    > In 1940, FDR was NEVER a declared candidate for re-election, yet he never said that he would NOT be a candidate; thus keeping other possible Democratic alternatives, esp. from within his own administration, on ice so to speak, and ultimately frozen out, until in the the long, hot summer of 1940 (just after the Fall of France) the Democratic National Convention nominated . . . wait for it . . . Franklin D. Roosevelt.

    One major difference between then & next year, FDR and Uncle Joe, is that the former had already been re-elected once, by an historic landslide (and thus 1940 nomination was for unprecedented 3rd term). Another was that strong majority of Democratic voters favored yet another Roosevelt run, a feeling that was even stronger among politicos, including many who actually disliked the New Deal and/or FDR personally.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672

    For the sake of Ukraine I hope Biden wins.

    Not just Ukraine. Any GOP win would be a disaster for Europe generally.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    Leon said:

    If this election is a rerun it feels all of a piece with the speedy decline of America, and the West in general

    A 78 year old, narcissistic bully possibly awaiting criminal charges, facing an 80 year old in obvious cognitive decline

    AGAIN

    And all the time, American cities rot from the core, and American life expectancy plunges below that of Panama.

    Fucksake America, SORT IT OUT

    Could well be past that. Maybe there are just too many Americas now for it ever to reunite as one nation under one flag.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,401
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Is it a coincidence that just after an awesomely subtle pun on classical history appears on a thread, we get a new one?

    #stopthesteal

    BTW - did you see this?

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/apr/10/nasuwt-members-call-for-ofsted-abolition-to-end-reign-of-terror
    No, although I have some idea of what’s in it.

    Bottom line is, at this moment OFSTED are in any case so utterly discredited it’s very difficult to see what the point of its continued existence is. Under Wilshaw or Bell it wasn’t popular but it was both respected and effective. Under Spielman, rather like our current ludicrously inept exam system, it’s become a box ticking exercise for all the wrong boxes using startlingly incompetent procedures.

    It’s even worse than it was under Woodhead, which is saying quite something.

    There has to be some kind of inspection regime, but if it is to have any relevance at all it needs to be started from scratch.
    I see someone has off-topicked my post despite it being on a matter discussed very recently today. In the last thread too IIRC.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Leon said:

    If this election is a rerun it feels all of a piece with the speedy decline of America, and the West in general

    A 78 year old, narcissistic bully possibly awaiting criminal charges, facing an 80 year old in obvious cognitive decline

    AGAIN

    And all the time, American cities rot from the core, and American life expectancy plunges below that of Panama.

    Fucksake America, SORT IT OUT

    "an 80 year old in obvious cognitive decline" = "Deranged Vegetable" argument/attack redux
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,916
    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules
  • nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    If this election is a rerun it feels all of a piece with the speedy decline of America, and the West in general

    A 78 year old, narcissistic bully possibly awaiting criminal charges, facing an 80 year old in obvious cognitive decline

    AGAIN

    And all the time, American cities rot from the core, and American life expectancy plunges below that of Panama.

    Fucksake America, SORT IT OUT

    Nothing left to save when the response to the latest shooting in a school which had an armed guard is "more armed guards". And then the morons saying that keep getting elected.
    True . Sad to say the US is fast turning into a failed state .
    It is indeed
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,158
    kle4 said:

    The BBC write up of the Democratic also ran candidates seems almost keen for him not to be the candidate, but frustrated about it.

    "Sitting president runs for second term" isn't much of a story compared to "decides not to run and there'a a big primary fight", so probably a lot of political journos would prefer the unlikely-but-exciting option...
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Could still be De Santis or Haley.

    Or DeSantis / Haley 2024 GOP ticket.

    {Note there is zero space the way RDS spells his surname. Says guy who can't spell "Barack" right half the time!}

    Word on the street is that both 2024 GOP hopefuls from the great Palmetto State of South Carolina, former Gov. Nikki Haley and current US Sen. Tim Scott, are REALLY running for Vice President. At least THIS cycle.

    As for Florida's answer to Viktor Orban, Ron DeSantis most definitely has a chance of beating out Donald Trump for the Republican nomination. PROVIDED he can play his cards correctly in a VERY high-stakes poker game.

    For one thing, no doubt that majority of GOP politicos would much rather have RDS as their standard-bearer. Especially in swing states and districts. And that growing numbers of Republican voters are clearly coming to same conclusion.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Is it a good or bad thing that this still counts as 'live coverage news' on the BBC rather than an everyday event?

    Five people have been killed and at least six wounded in a shooting at a bank in the US city of Louisville, Kentucky, police confirm

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-65233548
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,916
    edited April 2023
    kle4 said:

    Is it a good or bad thing that this still counts as 'live coverage news' on the BBC rather than an everyday event?

    Five people have been killed and at least six wounded in a shooting at a bank in the US city of Louisville, Kentucky, police confirm

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-65233548

    Not many of them do. They have to reach some sort of notability threshold before we hear of them.

    I remember seeing a broadcast news report on one of the recent school shootings when the journalist mentioned in an aside that there'd been another mass shooting overnight in a different city, but that was all we ever heard about that one.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    It's going to be carnage on here in about 45 minutes' time!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    Sean_F said:

    The problem with Trump as Republican candidate is he might well get elected.

    How we laughed when Labour chose Corbyn, but had the election campaign lasted another week, we’d have had PM Corbyn.

    Biden is only one big scandal or cock up away from Trump getting back in.

    Yes, I'm confident the American public won't elect Trump president again but it'd be best if they aren't given the chance to prove me right.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,303

    For the sake of Ukraine I hope Biden wins.

    Not just Ukraine. Any GOP win would be a disaster for Europe generally.
    I wouldn't be surprised if Macron thinks that this 'disaster' would be in France's interests and hopes for that outcome.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,780
    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    The problem with Trump as Republican candidate is he might well get elected.

    How we laughed when Labour chose Corbyn, but had the election campaign lasted another week, we’d have had PM Corbyn.

    Biden is only one big scandal or cock up away from Trump getting back in.

    Yes, I'm confident the American public won't elect Trump president again but it'd be best if they aren't given the chance to prove me right.
    And it would be better still if he were rejected in the primaries so no myths can develop that he won really.

    I dislike DeSantis intensely - he seems a revolting human being and totally unfit for office - but if he could thwart Trump he would be doing sterling public service.

    As long as he then loses himself, which is the trickier part…
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,168

    So that golliwogs chap, he’s a right charmer.


    Sounds like it would have come as a total surprise to him that gollywogs would be offensive.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,870

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    Like every Guardian article on immigration, there is dissembling here. Reading between the lines, they turned up with no paperwork at all.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    “Mostly peaceful” protests in Londonderry this afternoon. Only a handful of Molotov cocktails. Hope security holds ahead of Biden’s arrival.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    Biden now dropped to 1.31

    The higher price was up for a good hour or two, which shows how sluggish this market is to developments.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    The problem with Trump as Republican candidate is he might well get elected.

    How we laughed when Labour chose Corbyn, but had the election campaign lasted another week, we’d have had PM Corbyn.

    Biden is only one big scandal or cock up away from Trump getting back in.

    Yes, I'm confident the American public won't elect Trump president again but it'd be best if they aren't given the chance to prove me right.
    And it would be better still if he were rejected in the primaries so no myths can develop that he won really.

    I dislike DeSantis intensely - he seems a revolting human being and totally unfit for office - but if he could thwart Trump he would be doing sterling public service.

    As long as he then loses himself, which is the trickier part…
    This is an item on the very very VERY long list of reasons I hate Donald Trump - he's fixed things so I have to actually root for Ron DeSantis in an election. It's such a low feeling. You just want to turn the lights off and curl into a foetal position on the floor.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Is it a coincidence that just after an awesomely subtle pun on classical history appears on a thread, we get a new one?

    #stopthesteal

    BTW - did you see this?

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/apr/10/nasuwt-members-call-for-ofsted-abolition-to-end-reign-of-terror
    No, although I have some idea of what’s in it.

    Bottom line is, at this moment OFSTED are in any case so utterly discredited it’s very difficult to see what the point of its continued existence is. Under Wilshaw or Bell it wasn’t popular but it was both respected and effective. Under Spielman, rather like our current ludicrously inept exam system, it’s become a box ticking exercise for all the wrong boxes using startlingly incompetent procedures.

    It’s even worse than it was under Woodhead, which is saying quite something.

    There has to be some kind of inspection regime, but if it is to have any relevance at all it needs to be started from scratch.
    Which is precisely what they are calling for.
    ...Delegates to the NASUWT annual conference voted for a motion describing Ofsted as a “major contributor to the excessive workload and bureaucracy that blights the lives of teachers” and instructed the union to campaign for its abolition and replacement...

    I completely agree.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662

    So that golliwogs chap, he’s a right charmer.


    So, he's complaining about people taking offence at things... while simultaneously taking offence at gays and the like.

    The irony is strong with this one.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,388

    All Biden has to do is not die.

    I think he looks like he's gone downhill rather quickly in the last few months..
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281

    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    If this election is a rerun it feels all of a piece with the speedy decline of America, and the West in general

    A 78 year old, narcissistic bully possibly awaiting criminal charges, facing an 80 year old in obvious cognitive decline

    AGAIN

    And all the time, American cities rot from the core, and American life expectancy plunges below that of Panama.

    Fucksake America, SORT IT OUT

    Nothing left to save when the response to the latest shooting in a school which had an armed guard is "more armed guards". And then the morons saying that keep getting elected.
    True . Sad to say the US is fast turning into a failed state .
    It is indeed
    Is it ?
    Such conclusions seem premature. It's no more failed that we are...

    Oh, I see your point.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,491
    rcs1000 said:

    So that golliwogs chap, he’s a right charmer.


    So, he's complaining about people taking offence at things... while simultaneously taking offence at gays and the like.

    The irony is strong with this one.
    When he talks about the “prospect of a Muslim PM”… does he mean Sunak?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Is it a coincidence that just after an awesomely subtle pun on classical history appears on a thread, we get a new one?

    #stopthesteal

    BTW - did you see this?

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/apr/10/nasuwt-members-call-for-ofsted-abolition-to-end-reign-of-terror
    No, although I have some idea of what’s in it.

    Bottom line is, at this moment OFSTED are in any case so utterly discredited it’s very difficult to see what the point of its continued existence is. Under Wilshaw or Bell it wasn’t popular but it was both respected and effective. Under Spielman, rather like our current ludicrously inept exam system, it’s become a box ticking exercise for all the wrong boxes using startlingly incompetent procedures.

    It’s even worse than it was under Woodhead, which is saying quite something.

    There has to be some kind of inspection regime, but if it is to have any relevance at all it needs to be started from scratch.
    I see someone has off-topicked my post despite it being on a matter discussed very recently today. In the last thread too IIRC.
    Either a fat finger, or a fathead.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    carnforth said:

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    Like every Guardian article on immigration, there is dissembling here. Reading between the lines, they turned up with no paperwork at all.
    According to story cited, one of the Punks says they "paid for expensive customs declarations".

    And according to their UK agent, the band was relying on “permitted paid engagement” (PPE) exemption . . . allows musicians to spend up to one month touring the UK if they are invited and paid by a UK-based organisation or client. Artists must be able to show a formal invitation to attend a pre-arranged event and prove they can support themselves during the trip and can pay for their return journey."

    So clearly these Punks DID have "paperwork" - just reading what's ON the lines.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281

    Biden now dropped to 1.31

    The higher price was up for a good hour or two, which shows how sluggish this market is to developments.

    I took some of it.
    After giving you all notice, too.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281

    rcs1000 said:

    So that golliwogs chap, he’s a right charmer.


    So, he's complaining about people taking offence at things... while simultaneously taking offence at gays and the like.

    The irony is strong with this one.
    When he talks about the “prospect of a Muslim PM”… does he mean Sunak?
    Meaning is a questionable term when discussing what seem to be the ravings of a nutter.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    edited April 2023

    rcs1000 said:

    So that golliwogs chap, he’s a right charmer.


    So, he's complaining about people taking offence at things... while simultaneously taking offence at gays and the like.

    The irony is strong with this one.
    When he talks about the “prospect of a Muslim PM”… does he mean Sunak?
    Yes.

    The final two of Truss and Sunak were chosen on the 20th of July and his post is four days later.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,870

    carnforth said:

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    Like every Guardian article on immigration, there is dissembling here. Reading between the lines, they turned up with no paperwork at all.
    According to story cited, one of the Punks says they "paid for expensive customs declarations".

    And according to their UK agent, the band was relying on “permitted paid engagement” (PPE) exemption . . . allows musicians to spend up to one month touring the UK if they are invited and paid by a UK-based organisation or client. Artists must be able to show a formal invitation to attend a pre-arranged event and prove they can support themselves during the trip and can pay for their return journey."

    So clearly these Punks DID have "paperwork" - just reading what's ON the lines.
    No, the customs declarations would be for the equipment. It's the right to work which is at issue.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156

    rcs1000 said:

    So that golliwogs chap, he’s a right charmer.


    So, he's complaining about people taking offence at things... while simultaneously taking offence at gays and the like.

    The irony is strong with this one.
    When he talks about the “prospect of a Muslim PM”… does he mean Sunak?
    "They all look the same to me!" :open_mouth:
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    Like every Guardian article on immigration, there is dissembling here. Reading between the lines, they turned up with no paperwork at all.
    According to story cited, one of the Punks says they "paid for expensive customs declarations".

    And according to their UK agent, the band was relying on “permitted paid engagement” (PPE) exemption . . . allows musicians to spend up to one month touring the UK if they are invited and paid by a UK-based organisation or client. Artists must be able to show a formal invitation to attend a pre-arranged event and prove they can support themselves during the trip and can pay for their return journey."

    So clearly these Punks DID have "paperwork" - just reading what's ON the lines.
    No, the customs declarations would be for the equipment. It's the right to work which is at issue.
    They're punks, for heavens sake. You expect paperwork ?

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,476

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    I don’t think we are hearing the whole story.

    As I read the article:

    BorderGuard: Are you going to use the “certificate of sponsorship route”

    Band: “No we are going to use the Permitted Paid Exemption route instead”

    BG: “ok. Please show me your formal invitation, proof of funds and return ticket”

    Band: errr…


    The bit in italics is not in the article. It goes directly from the band intention to use the PPE route to them being denied entry and blaming Brexit.

    Do you think it would be helpful for us to be told *why* they were denied entry under the PPE route?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,238

    rcs1000 said:

    So that golliwogs chap, he’s a right charmer.


    So, he's complaining about people taking offence at things... while simultaneously taking offence at gays and the like.

    The irony is strong with this one.
    When he talks about the “prospect of a Muslim PM”… does he mean Sunak?
    Yes.

    The final two of Truss and Sunak were chosen on the 20th of July and his post is four days later.
    So we know Sunak is a Hindu, so that must mean that The Truss is a Muslim. Learn something every day.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,049

    So that golliwogs chap, he’s a right charmer.


    Well that’s shocked me !!
  • Could still be De Santis or Haley.

    Or DeSantis / Haley 2024 GOP ticket.

    {Note there is zero space the way RDS spells his surname. Says guy who can't spell "Barack" right half the time!}

    Word on the street is that both 2024 GOP hopefuls from the great Palmetto State of South Carolina, former Gov. Nikki Haley and current US Sen. Tim Scott, are REALLY running for Vice President. At least THIS cycle.

    As for Florida's answer to Viktor Orban, Ron DeSantis most definitely has a chance of beating out Donald Trump for the Republican nomination. PROVIDED he can play his cards correctly in a VERY high-stakes poker game.

    For one thing, no doubt that majority of GOP politicos would much rather have RDS as their standard-bearer. Especially in swing states and districts. And that growing numbers of Republican voters are clearly coming to same conclusion.
    Agree with Haley and Scott are really thinking about the VP side. Personally, I would prefer Scott but either is fine.

    I'm not sure about RDS beating Trump which is why I have been beating the drum about RDS doing a deal with Trump and standing as his VP pick (and, yes, I know about the one state rule and it has been gotten round before / is easy to get round). This from the NY Magazine (via MSN):

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/what-if-desantis-takes-a-pass-on-2024/ar-AA19Ekw6

    As for Mike's argument, one counter-argument. If you look at the Republicans and Democrats, their score between March 30th and April 6th on whether he should be prosecuted have barely budged but the Independents showed a large swing towards yes. It could easily swing back. Even those who might be sympathetic to a Trump conviction say the case is not exactly strong.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    rcs1000 said:

    So that golliwogs chap, he’s a right charmer.


    So, he's complaining about people taking offence at things... while simultaneously taking offence at gays and the like.

    The irony is strong with this one.
    True, but he wasn't demanding police go and arrest gays was he?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,238
    Nigelb said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    Like every Guardian article on immigration, there is dissembling here. Reading between the lines, they turned up with no paperwork at all.
    According to story cited, one of the Punks says they "paid for expensive customs declarations".

    And according to their UK agent, the band was relying on “permitted paid engagement” (PPE) exemption . . . allows musicians to spend up to one month touring the UK if they are invited and paid by a UK-based organisation or client. Artists must be able to show a formal invitation to attend a pre-arranged event and prove they can support themselves during the trip and can pay for their return journey."

    So clearly these Punks DID have "paperwork" - just reading what's ON the lines.
    No, the customs declarations would be for the equipment. It's the right to work which is at issue.
    They're punks, for heavens sake. You expect paperwork ?

    "Anarchy in the UK
    It's coming some day, if we can sort the paperwork out."
  • nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    If this election is a rerun it feels all of a piece with the speedy decline of America, and the West in general

    A 78 year old, narcissistic bully possibly awaiting criminal charges, facing an 80 year old in obvious cognitive decline

    AGAIN

    And all the time, American cities rot from the core, and American life expectancy plunges below that of Panama.

    Fucksake America, SORT IT OUT

    Nothing left to save when the response to the latest shooting in a school which had an armed guard is "more armed guards". And then the morons saying that keep getting elected.
    True . Sad to say the US is fast turning into a failed state .
    It is indeed
    Read 'Why Nations Fail', The US' biggest problem at the moment is that neither side trusts the other. As a result, yes, the US is starting to take on the characteristics of other failed / dysfunctional states.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    edited April 2023

    carnforth said:

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    Like every Guardian article on immigration, there is dissembling here. Reading between the lines, they turned up with no paperwork at all.
    According to story cited, one of the Punks says they "paid for expensive customs declarations".

    And according to their UK agent, the band was relying on “permitted paid engagement” (PPE) exemption . . . allows musicians to spend up to one month touring the UK if they are invited and paid by a UK-based organisation or client. Artists must be able to show a formal invitation to attend a pre-arranged event and prove they can support themselves during the trip and can pay for their return journey."

    So clearly these Punks DID have "paperwork" - just reading what's ON the lines.
    You have to read articles like this REALLY carefully.

    They “Paid for expensive customs declarations”. Which are to do with goods, not people.

    “Instead, they planned to enter the UK under the “permitted paid engagement” (PPE) exemption, which is free.

    “This allows musicians to spend up to one month touring the UK if they are invited and paid by a UK-based organisation or client. Artists must be able to show a formal invitation to attend a pre-arranged event and prove they can support themselves during the trip and can pay for their return journey.”


    What’s not explicitly said, is that the appropriate invitation letter and payment proof was available to the immigration officers at the border. Which means it wasn’t, which was the reason their entry to the UK was refused.

    The Guardian have a LOT of form, for such misleading articles on the subject.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,388
    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    ·
    15s
    Labour leads by 14%, the narrowest lead for Labour since Rishi Sunak became PM.

    Westminster VI (9 April):

    Labour 44% (-1)
    Conservative 30% (+2)
    Liberal Democrat 10% (-2)
    Reform UK 6% (+1)
    Green 5% (+1)
    SNP 3% (-1)
    Other 2% (–)

    Changes +/- 2 April

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    Nigelb said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    Like every Guardian article on immigration, there is dissembling here. Reading between the lines, they turned up with no paperwork at all.
    According to story cited, one of the Punks says they "paid for expensive customs declarations".

    And according to their UK agent, the band was relying on “permitted paid engagement” (PPE) exemption . . . allows musicians to spend up to one month touring the UK if they are invited and paid by a UK-based organisation or client. Artists must be able to show a formal invitation to attend a pre-arranged event and prove they can support themselves during the trip and can pay for their return journey."

    So clearly these Punks DID have "paperwork" - just reading what's ON the lines.
    No, the customs declarations would be for the equipment. It's the right to work which is at issue.
    They're punks, for heavens sake. You expect paperwork ?
    From the punks, no.

    From their tour manager and travel agent, absolutely.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,401
    edited April 2023

    rcs1000 said:

    So that golliwogs chap, he’s a right charmer.


    So, he's complaining about people taking offence at things... while simultaneously taking offence at gays and the like.

    The irony is strong with this one.
    True, but he wasn't demanding police go and arrest gays was he?
    I hardly think that is the point at issue, unless of course the dolls in the pub were [edit] dressed in pink or something.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,870

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    I don’t think we are hearing the whole story.

    As I read the article:

    BorderGuard: Are you going to use the “certificate of sponsorship route”

    Band: “No we are going to use the Permitted Paid Exemption route instead”

    BG: “ok. Please show me your formal invitation, proof of funds and return ticket”

    Band: errr…


    The bit in italics is not in the article. It goes directly from the band intention to use the PPE route to them being denied entry and blaming Brexit.

    Do you think it would be helpful for us to be told *why* they were denied entry under the PPE route?
    The expert (not from the band) they interviewed said they planned to use this route. My guess is they thought it could be done on the spot, and didn't realise they needed a sponsor.

    There's an argument to be made for loosening these requirements, of course.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,916

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    I don’t think we are hearing the whole story.

    As I read the article:

    BorderGuard: Are you going to use the “certificate of sponsorship route”

    Band: “No we are going to use the Permitted Paid Exemption route instead”

    BG: “ok. Please show me your formal invitation, proof of funds and return ticket”

    Band: errr…


    The bit in italics is not in the article. It goes directly from the band intention to use the PPE route to them being denied entry and blaming Brexit.

    Do you think it would be helpful for us to be told *why* they were denied entry under the PPE route?
    Okay, fine. I'll chalk your down as another fan of bureaucracy and red tape and an enemy to freedom then, because your defence of my criticism is that they didn't have the necessary paperwork to fulfill the rules.

    Why should they need reams of paperwork in the first place? What good does it do?

    And it's not about Brexit. It's about the government's choice to impose bureaucracy and red tape because the freedom of foreign punk bands to come and play in Britain threatens them, because they hate freedom.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281
    Donald Trump is appealing a ruling rejecting his challenge to a grand jury subpoena for former VP Mike Pence to testify in the Jan. 6 probe, per person familiar. Trump lost on executive privilege; Pence last week said no appeal on legislative privilege issue.

    More to come.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ZoeTillman/status/1645454564865310720
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,870

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    I don’t think we are hearing the whole story.

    As I read the article:

    BorderGuard: Are you going to use the “certificate of sponsorship route”

    Band: “No we are going to use the Permitted Paid Exemption route instead”

    BG: “ok. Please show me your formal invitation, proof of funds and return ticket”

    Band: errr…


    The bit in italics is not in the article. It goes directly from the band intention to use the PPE route to them being denied entry and blaming Brexit.

    Do you think it would be helpful for us to be told *why* they were denied entry under the PPE route?
    Okay, fine. I'll chalk your down as another fan of bureaucracy and red tape and an enemy to freedom then, because your defence of my criticism is that they didn't have the necessary paperwork to fulfill the rules.

    Why should they need reams of paperwork in the first place? What good does it do?

    And it's not about Brexit. It's about the government's choice to impose bureaucracy and red tape because the freedom of foreign punk bands to come and play in Britain threatens them, because they hate freedom.
    Did you care before Brexit when non-EU bands faced the same hurdles? Do you know what rules other countries have? Are ours unusually onerous, or about normal?
  • Leon said:

    If this election is a rerun it feels all of a piece with the speedy decline of America, and the West in general

    A 78 year old, narcissistic bully possibly awaiting criminal charges, facing an 80 year old in obvious cognitive decline

    AGAIN

    And all the time, American cities rot from the core, and American life expectancy plunges below that of Panama.

    Fucksake America, SORT IT OUT

    Nothing left to save when the response to the latest shooting in a school which had an armed guard is "more armed guards". And then the morons saying that keep getting elected.
    Here is an example of how divided the States is and why compromise is getting impossible.

    The left's view is yours - what a stupid thing to do in response to a shooting, it doesn't resolve anything.

    The right's response is "A transgender person carried out the Nashville school shooting on 'Transgender Day of Vengeance' (with a nice Transgender flag with an AR-15 in it) and suddenly the Media can't move away from the story quick enough' (ditto the Waukesha Christmas massacre where it was a 'car' that did all the killings).

    Both comments would be right but both sides don't want to understand the others' view.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Sandpit said:

    carnforth said:

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    Like every Guardian article on immigration, there is dissembling here. Reading between the lines, they turned up with no paperwork at all.
    According to story cited, one of the Punks says they "paid for expensive customs declarations".

    And according to their UK agent, the band was relying on “permitted paid engagement” (PPE) exemption . . . allows musicians to spend up to one month touring the UK if they are invited and paid by a UK-based organisation or client. Artists must be able to show a formal invitation to attend a pre-arranged event and prove they can support themselves during the trip and can pay for their return journey."

    So clearly these Punks DID have "paperwork" - just reading what's ON the lines.
    You have to read articles like this REALLY carefully.

    They “Paid for expensive customs declarations”. Which are to do with goods, not people.

    “Instead, they planned to enter the UK under the “permitted paid engagement” (PPE) exemption, which is free.

    “This allows musicians to spend up to one month touring the UK if they are invited and paid by a UK-based organisation or client. Artists must be able to show a formal invitation to attend a pre-arranged event and prove they can support themselves during the trip and can pay for their return journey.”


    What’s not explicitly said, is that the appropriate invitation letter and payment proof was available to the immigration officers at the border. Which means it wasn’t, which was the reason their entry to the UK was refused.

    The Guardian have a LOT of form, for such misleading articles on the subject.
    "What’s not explicitly said, is that the appropriate invitation letter and payment proof was available to the immigration officers at the border. Which means it wasn’t . ."

    What is your proof - if any - for the this assumption? OR is it just your opinion?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    I don’t think we are hearing the whole story.

    As I read the article:

    BorderGuard: Are you going to use the “certificate of sponsorship route”

    Band: “No we are going to use the Permitted Paid Exemption route instead”

    BG: “ok. Please show me your formal invitation, proof of funds and return ticket”

    Band: errr…


    The bit in italics is not in the article. It goes directly from the band intention to use the PPE route to them being denied entry and blaming Brexit.

    Do you think it would be helpful for us to be told *why* they were denied entry under the PPE route?
    Okay, fine. I'll chalk your down as another fan of bureaucracy and red tape and an enemy to freedom then, because your defence of my criticism is that they didn't have the necessary paperwork to fulfill the rules.

    Why should they need reams of paperwork in the first place? What good does it do?

    And it's not about Brexit. It's about the government's choice to impose bureaucracy and red tape because the freedom of foreign punk bands to come and play in Britain threatens them, because they hate freedom.
    They need the paperwork, because the EU wasn’t competent on the reciprocal. A British band touring Europe needs a separate set of paperwork for each country they will play, and also faces customs restrictions on movement of equipment between countries, something called ‘Cabotage’.
  • Could still be De Santis or Haley.

    If you think it's going to be Haley, you should be grabbing some of the 30 available on BF.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,238

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    I don’t think we are hearing the whole story.

    As I read the article:

    BorderGuard: Are you going to use the “certificate of sponsorship route”

    Band: “No we are going to use the Permitted Paid Exemption route instead”

    BG: “ok. Please show me your formal invitation, proof of funds and return ticket”

    Band: errr…


    The bit in italics is not in the article. It goes directly from the band intention to use the PPE route to them being denied entry and blaming Brexit.

    Do you think it would be helpful for us to be told *why* they were denied entry under the PPE route?
    Okay, fine. I'll chalk your down as another fan of bureaucracy and red tape and an enemy to freedom then, because your defence of my criticism is that they didn't have the necessary paperwork to fulfill the rules.

    Why should they need reams of paperwork in the first place? What good does it do?

    And it's not about Brexit. It's about the government's choice to impose bureaucracy and red tape because the freedom of foreign punk bands to come and play in Britain threatens them, because they hate freedom.
    More gigs for British punk bands. A Brexit benefit.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036

    Sandpit said:

    carnforth said:

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    Like every Guardian article on immigration, there is dissembling here. Reading between the lines, they turned up with no paperwork at all.
    According to story cited, one of the Punks says they "paid for expensive customs declarations".

    And according to their UK agent, the band was relying on “permitted paid engagement” (PPE) exemption . . . allows musicians to spend up to one month touring the UK if they are invited and paid by a UK-based organisation or client. Artists must be able to show a formal invitation to attend a pre-arranged event and prove they can support themselves during the trip and can pay for their return journey."

    So clearly these Punks DID have "paperwork" - just reading what's ON the lines.
    You have to read articles like this REALLY carefully.

    They “Paid for expensive customs declarations”. Which are to do with goods, not people.

    “Instead, they planned to enter the UK under the “permitted paid engagement” (PPE) exemption, which is free.

    “This allows musicians to spend up to one month touring the UK if they are invited and paid by a UK-based organisation or client. Artists must be able to show a formal invitation to attend a pre-arranged event and prove they can support themselves during the trip and can pay for their return journey.”


    What’s not explicitly said, is that the appropriate invitation letter and payment proof was available to the immigration officers at the border. Which means it wasn’t, which was the reason their entry to the UK was refused.

    The Guardian have a LOT of form, for such misleading articles on the subject.
    "What’s not explicitly said, is that the appropriate invitation letter and payment proof was available to the immigration officers at the border. Which means it wasn’t . ."

    What is your proof - if any - for the this assumption? OR is it just your opinion?
    The article defines the requirement, but doesn’t say that the band complied with the requirement. Therefore, it’s a reasonable assumption, based on two decades of reading similarly obtuse Guardian articles on immigration issues, that the appropriate paperwork was not in place.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    I don’t think we are hearing the whole story.

    As I read the article:

    BorderGuard: Are you going to use the “certificate of sponsorship route”

    Band: “No we are going to use the Permitted Paid Exemption route instead”

    BG: “ok. Please show me your formal invitation, proof of funds and return ticket”

    Band: errr…


    The bit in italics is not in the article. It goes directly from the band intention to use the PPE route to them being denied entry and blaming Brexit.

    Do you think it would be helpful for us to be told *why* they were denied entry under the PPE route?
    "We believe in nothing, Lebowski. Nothing. And tomorrow we come back and we cut off your chonson.
    Customs guy : Excuse me?"
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    carnforth said:

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    I don’t think we are hearing the whole story.

    As I read the article:

    BorderGuard: Are you going to use the “certificate of sponsorship route”

    Band: “No we are going to use the Permitted Paid Exemption route instead”

    BG: “ok. Please show me your formal invitation, proof of funds and return ticket”

    Band: errr…


    The bit in italics is not in the article. It goes directly from the band intention to use the PPE route to them being denied entry and blaming Brexit.

    Do you think it would be helpful for us to be told *why* they were denied entry under the PPE route?
    The expert (not from the band) they interviewed said they planned to use this route. My guess is they thought it could be done on the spot, and didn't realise they needed a sponsor.

    There's an argument to be made for loosening these requirements, of course.
    You ARE guessing.

    IF the band's agent did NOT tell them to present their invitation from UK venue in writing, then sounds like they'd have a civil case against him.

    However, simply assuming that they didn't have required documentation, is a logical bridge toooooo far.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,870
    Sandpit said:

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    I don’t think we are hearing the whole story.

    As I read the article:

    BorderGuard: Are you going to use the “certificate of sponsorship route”

    Band: “No we are going to use the Permitted Paid Exemption route instead”

    BG: “ok. Please show me your formal invitation, proof of funds and return ticket”

    Band: errr…


    The bit in italics is not in the article. It goes directly from the band intention to use the PPE route to them being denied entry and blaming Brexit.

    Do you think it would be helpful for us to be told *why* they were denied entry under the PPE route?
    Okay, fine. I'll chalk your down as another fan of bureaucracy and red tape and an enemy to freedom then, because your defence of my criticism is that they didn't have the necessary paperwork to fulfill the rules.

    Why should they need reams of paperwork in the first place? What good does it do?

    And it's not about Brexit. It's about the government's choice to impose bureaucracy and red tape because the freedom of foreign punk bands to come and play in Britain threatens them, because they hate freedom.
    They need the paperwork, because the EU wasn’t competent on the reciprocal. A British band touring Europe needs a separate set of paperwork for each country they will play, and also faces customs restrictions on movement of equipment between countries, something called ‘Cabotage’.
    I believe the EU did offer us a deal on Touring mucisians, but we considered it too all-encompassing i.e virtually anyone could have called themselves a performer.

    Sadly, the details of unused proposals from the negotiations are not public.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,871
    carnforth said:

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    I don’t think we are hearing the whole story.

    As I read the article:

    BorderGuard: Are you going to use the “certificate of sponsorship route”

    Band: “No we are going to use the Permitted Paid Exemption route instead”

    BG: “ok. Please show me your formal invitation, proof of funds and return ticket”

    Band: errr…


    The bit in italics is not in the article. It goes directly from the band intention to use the PPE route to them being denied entry and blaming Brexit.

    Do you think it would be helpful for us to be told *why* they were denied entry under the PPE route?
    The expert (not from the band) they interviewed said they planned to use this route. My guess is they thought it could be done on the spot, and didn't realise they needed a sponsor.

    There's an argument to be made for loosening these requirements, of course.
    Maybe they just didn't get through the metal detectors.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    GIN1138 said:

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    ·
    15s
    Labour leads by 14%, the narrowest lead for Labour since Rishi Sunak became PM.

    Westminster VI (9 April):

    Labour 44% (-1)
    Conservative 30% (+2)
    Liberal Democrat 10% (-2)
    Reform UK 6% (+1)
    Green 5% (+1)
    SNP 3% (-1)
    Other 2% (–)

    Changes +/- 2 April

    Definite narrowing. It is undeniable. It's clear that previous Don't Knows are returning to the Tories. What we have yet to see, though, is any sign of direct switchers to Labour having a change of heart. It starts to get very interesting if that happens.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,870

    carnforth said:

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    I don’t think we are hearing the whole story.

    As I read the article:

    BorderGuard: Are you going to use the “certificate of sponsorship route”

    Band: “No we are going to use the Permitted Paid Exemption route instead”

    BG: “ok. Please show me your formal invitation, proof of funds and return ticket”

    Band: errr…


    The bit in italics is not in the article. It goes directly from the band intention to use the PPE route to them being denied entry and blaming Brexit.

    Do you think it would be helpful for us to be told *why* they were denied entry under the PPE route?
    The expert (not from the band) they interviewed said they planned to use this route. My guess is they thought it could be done on the spot, and didn't realise they needed a sponsor.

    There's an argument to be made for loosening these requirements, of course.
    You ARE guessing.

    IF the band's agent did NOT tell them to present their invitation from UK venue in writing, then sounds like they'd have a civil case against him.

    However, simply assuming that they didn't have required documentation, is a logical bridge toooooo far.
    Yes, I'm guessing. This is why I said "I guess". In English English, that means I am guessing, not I am supposing like in American English.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,721
    O/t but my wife is Zooming with three old female friends and they’ve just been very critical of the Labour advertising campaign; the one most of us decried.
    At least two are regular Labour voters and I don’t think the other two vote Conservative.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,945
    carnforth said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    I don’t think we are hearing the whole story.

    As I read the article:

    BorderGuard: Are you going to use the “certificate of sponsorship route”

    Band: “No we are going to use the Permitted Paid Exemption route instead”

    BG: “ok. Please show me your formal invitation, proof of funds and return ticket”

    Band: errr…


    The bit in italics is not in the article. It goes directly from the band intention to use the PPE route to them being denied entry and blaming Brexit.

    Do you think it would be helpful for us to be told *why* they were denied entry under the PPE route?
    Okay, fine. I'll chalk your down as another fan of bureaucracy and red tape and an enemy to freedom then, because your defence of my criticism is that they didn't have the necessary paperwork to fulfill the rules.

    Why should they need reams of paperwork in the first place? What good does it do?

    And it's not about Brexit. It's about the government's choice to impose bureaucracy and red tape because the freedom of foreign punk bands to come and play in Britain threatens them, because they hate freedom.
    They need the paperwork, because the EU wasn’t competent on the reciprocal. A British band touring Europe needs a separate set of paperwork for each country they will play, and also faces customs restrictions on movement of equipment between countries, something called ‘Cabotage’.
    I believe the EU did offer us a deal on Touring mucisians, but we considered it too all-encompassing i.e virtually anyone could have called themselves a performer.

    Sadly, the details of unused proposals from the negotiations are not public.
    how convenient....
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    I don’t think we are hearing the whole story.

    As I read the article:

    BorderGuard: Are you going to use the “certificate of sponsorship route”

    Band: “No we are going to use the Permitted Paid Exemption route instead”

    BG: “ok. Please show me your formal invitation, proof of funds and return ticket”

    Band: errr…


    The bit in italics is not in the article. It goes directly from the band intention to use the PPE route to them being denied entry and blaming Brexit.

    Do you think it would be helpful for us to be told *why* they were denied entry under the PPE route?
    The expert (not from the band) they interviewed said they planned to use this route. My guess is they thought it could be done on the spot, and didn't realise they needed a sponsor.

    There's an argument to be made for loosening these requirements, of course.
    You ARE guessing.

    IF the band's agent did NOT tell them to present their invitation from UK venue in writing, then sounds like they'd have a civil case against him.

    However, simply assuming that they didn't have required documentation, is a logical bridge toooooo far.
    Yes, I'm guessing. This is why I said "I guess". In English English, that means I am guessing, not I am supposing like in American English.
    Functional difference between a guess and a supposition being as vast as the Atlantic (or Pacific?)
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156

    Could still be De Santis or Haley.

    If you think it's going to be Haley, you should be grabbing some of the 30 available on BF.
    Hang on, surely you should be encouraging them to trade at 34?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,388

    GIN1138 said:

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    ·
    15s
    Labour leads by 14%, the narrowest lead for Labour since Rishi Sunak became PM.

    Westminster VI (9 April):

    Labour 44% (-1)
    Conservative 30% (+2)
    Liberal Democrat 10% (-2)
    Reform UK 6% (+1)
    Green 5% (+1)
    SNP 3% (-1)
    Other 2% (–)

    Changes +/- 2 April

    Definite narrowing. It is undeniable. It's clear that previous Don't Knows are returning to the Tories. What we have yet to see, though, is any sign of direct switchers to Labour having a change of heart. It starts to get very interesting if that happens.
    Yes, lots to play for over the next 18 months...
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    carnforth said:

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    I don’t think we are hearing the whole story.

    As I read the article:

    BorderGuard: Are you going to use the “certificate of sponsorship route”

    Band: “No we are going to use the Permitted Paid Exemption route instead”

    BG: “ok. Please show me your formal invitation, proof of funds and return ticket”

    Band: errr…


    The bit in italics is not in the article. It goes directly from the band intention to use the PPE route to them being denied entry and blaming Brexit.

    Do you think it would be helpful for us to be told *why* they were denied entry under the PPE route?
    The expert (not from the band) they interviewed said they planned to use this route. My guess is they thought it could be done on the spot, and didn't realise they needed a sponsor.

    There's an argument to be made for loosening these requirements, of course.
    Maybe they just didn't get through the metal detectors.
    Man, you've been on a roll recently with the one-liners!
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,476
    Nigelb said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    Like every Guardian article on immigration, there is dissembling here. Reading between the lines, they turned up with no paperwork at all.
    According to story cited, one of the Punks says they "paid for expensive customs declarations".

    And according to their UK agent, the band was relying on “permitted paid engagement” (PPE) exemption . . . allows musicians to spend up to one month touring the UK if they are invited and paid by a UK-based organisation or client. Artists must be able to show a formal invitation to attend a pre-arranged event and prove they can support themselves during the trip and can pay for their return journey."

    So clearly these Punks DID have "paperwork" - just reading what's ON the lines.
    No, the customs declarations would be for the equipment. It's the right to work which is at issue.
    They're punks, for heavens sake. You expect paperwork ?

    I assume their agent trousered the cash and assumed he could blah his way through border control…
  • Nigelb said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    Like every Guardian article on immigration, there is dissembling here. Reading between the lines, they turned up with no paperwork at all.
    According to story cited, one of the Punks says they "paid for expensive customs declarations".

    And according to their UK agent, the band was relying on “permitted paid engagement” (PPE) exemption . . . allows musicians to spend up to one month touring the UK if they are invited and paid by a UK-based organisation or client. Artists must be able to show a formal invitation to attend a pre-arranged event and prove they can support themselves during the trip and can pay for their return journey."

    So clearly these Punks DID have "paperwork" - just reading what's ON the lines.
    No, the customs declarations would be for the equipment. It's the right to work which is at issue.
    They're punks, for heavens sake. You expect paperwork ?

    I assume their agent trousered the cash and assumed he could blah his way through border control…
    Liz Truss has declared you to be an active member of the anti-growth coalition.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    ·
    15s
    Labour leads by 14%, the narrowest lead for Labour since Rishi Sunak became PM.

    Westminster VI (9 April):

    Labour 44% (-1)
    Conservative 30% (+2)
    Liberal Democrat 10% (-2)
    Reform UK 6% (+1)
    Green 5% (+1)
    SNP 3% (-1)
    Other 2% (–)

    Changes +/- 2 April

    Definite narrowing. It is undeniable. It's clear that previous Don't Knows are returning to the Tories. What we have yet to see, though, is any sign of direct switchers to Labour having a change of heart. It starts to get very interesting if that happens.
    Yes, lots to play for over the next 18 months...
    Not if they don't let you into the country.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,476
    Taz said:
    Polls getting tighter?

    Or timelines for Rishi to turn it around…
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,476
    carnforth said:

    Another fine example of the government's love for bureaucracy and red tape and its hatred for freedom.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/10/german-punk-band-humiliated-after-being-refused-uk-entry-due-to-post-brexit-rules

    I don’t think we are hearing the whole story.

    As I read the article:

    BorderGuard: Are you going to use the “certificate of sponsorship route”

    Band: “No we are going to use the Permitted Paid Exemption route instead”

    BG: “ok. Please show me your formal invitation, proof of funds and return ticket”

    Band: errr…


    The bit in italics is not in the article. It goes directly from the band intention to use the PPE route to them being denied entry and blaming Brexit.

    Do you think it would be helpful for us to be told *why* they were denied entry under the PPE route?
    The expert (not from the band) they interviewed said they planned to use this route. My guess is they thought it could be done on the spot, and didn't realise they needed a sponsor.

    There's an argument to be made for loosening these requirements, of course.
    That’s possible - and them blamed the fact that the guidance was in English for it not being clear.

  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,234
    edited April 2023

    GIN1138 said:

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    ·
    15s
    Labour leads by 14%, the narrowest lead for Labour since Rishi Sunak became PM.

    Westminster VI (9 April):

    Labour 44% (-1)
    Conservative 30% (+2)
    Liberal Democrat 10% (-2)
    Reform UK 6% (+1)
    Green 5% (+1)
    SNP 3% (-1)
    Other 2% (–)

    Changes +/- 2 April

    Definite narrowing. It is undeniable. It's clear that previous Don't Knows are returning to the Tories. What we have yet to see, though, is any sign of direct switchers to Labour having a change of heart. It starts to get very interesting if that happens.
    Labour will form the next government, I'm very sure.

    Cameron struggled to get a majority and the CP is in a much worse state now than it was then. Sunak is popular but not more so than Cameron was. Plus Covid's removed some older voters.

    Boundary changes may favour the CP a bit but Scotland is the dynamic which will get Labour over the line, probably into majority territory. The implosion of the SNP will prove decisive. Don't rely on 2019 GE as any sort of guide to 2024, that's my advice.

    Sunak is very good, and more popular than Starmer, but it won't be nearly enough to counteract time for a change.

This discussion has been closed.