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Could Sunak’s Tories really win a fifth term? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,218
edited April 2023 in General
Could Sunak’s Tories really win a fifth term? – politicalbetting.com

The above podcast came out yesterday and the polling in it looks interesting and should be of some concern to Labour particularly the comments in relation to Starmer. Already the blue attack machine is trying to get its teeth into him.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    edited March 2023
    First unlike SKS in highest Labour vote share this Century
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    Second like the Tories
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    Second like the Tories

    Also like Lab in Islington North
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,010
    Given the magnitude of the swings in public opinion we've seen, it would be courageous to rule out another one.

    But it's going to need something special from the Tories and/or a complete implosion by Sir Keir.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281
    Did they decide the size of his hands would render them useless ?

    Trump will not be put in handcuffs for court date, lawyer says
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/31/trump-handcuffs-new-york-indictment-arraignment
  • Horse_BHorse_B Posts: 106

    First unlike SKS in highest Labour vote share this Century

    Was that the election where they lost by 50 seats?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281
    carnforth said:
    Quite right too, since it is in breach of EU data processing rules.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    fpt for @carnforth


    "Might have to be delicate asking questions about this:

    "Siwa is of special interest to anthropologists and sociologists because of its historical acceptance of male homosexuality and even rituals celebrating same-sex marriage – traditions that the Egyptian authorities have sought to repress, with increasing success, since the early twentieth century.

    In 1937 the anthropologist Walter Cline wrote the first detailed ethnography of the Siwans in which he noted: "All normal Siwan men and boys practice sodomy...among themselves the natives are not ashamed of this; they talk about it as openly as they talk about love of women, and many if not most of their fights arise from homosexual competition....Prominent men lend their sons to each other. All Siwans know the matings which have taken place among their sheiks and their sheiks' sons....Most of the boys used in sodomy are between twelve and eighteen years of age.""

    +++++


    lol! I have this moment been reading the same. What an extraordinary tradition. Siwa is completely weird in multiple ways. "Settled since the 10th millennium BC". You what?

    Possibly boasts the tomb of Alexander the Great who was, apparently, half in love with the place
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,983
    No
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,871
    Nigelb said:

    Did they decide the size of his hands would render them useless ?

    Trump will not be put in handcuffs for court date, lawyer says
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/31/trump-handcuffs-new-york-indictment-arraignment

    It would smack of martyrdom. If they were doing handcuffs they may as well give him a crown of thorns.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,246
    Tories could win another term.

    I challenge one thing though. The previous state of the parties is almost irrelevant to what they will win at the next election. If Labour gets the polling numbers it doesn't matter how many seats it needs to gain. I would not say Labour can't win a majority because the mountain is too hard to climb, they have to gain too many seats. They will get a comfortable majority on numbers significantly less than what they are polling now.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156

    Second like the Tories

    Also like Lab in Islington North
    Mike said: "Labour needs to make 123 seats gains in order to secure a majority".

    Thanks to your hero Corbyn, BJO!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Was Alexander the Great an early sex tourist, in Siwa?

    That's a Daily Mail colour article, right there

  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Nigelb said:

    carnforth said:
    Quite right too, since it is in breach of EU data processing rules.
    And here is a potential Brexit Benefit. And a big one. The UK is already in a good position with AI, we have DeepMind and Stable Diffusion and other companies. If the EU wants to cripple itself in this, probably the most important new technology of the century, then great. We don't have to
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    Leon said:

    Was Alexander the Great an early sex tourist, in Siwa?

    That's a Daily Mail colour article, right there

    More Pervepolis than Persepolis? :lol:
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,217
    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,217
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    carnforth said:
    Quite right too, since it is in breach of EU data processing rules.
    And here is a potential Brexit Benefit. And a big one. The UK is already in a good position with AI, we have DeepMind and Stable Diffusion and other companies. If the EU wants to cripple itself in this, probably the most important new technology of the century, then great. We don't have to
    Nor do any other EU countries. This is an Italian domestic decision. Exercising (in a silly way) their national sovereignty.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,961
    Labour's biggest potential problem is the likelihood they will pile up votes in their safe seats, to an even greater extent than is currently the case.
  • Labour's problem is simple - its position is not based on positivity i.e. people support Labour's policies, it is based on negativity i.e. relying on the unpopularity of the Tories to win it power by default.

    The problem with that is that Labour's position is somewhat based on events outside their control i.e. the behaviour of the Government. FWIW, anecdotally - and in several different independent contexts - I have heard multiple people express the view that Sunak is competent and getting things done.

    I wonder whether part of Starmer's problem is that he is being advised by people such as Campbell and Mandleson who are thinking about the next GE in the frame of 1997. The two contexts are likely to be very different.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,870
    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    Another odd blind spot for Labour is heavily rural seats. Tories have a go in the cities, Labour seem not to have a strategy for even trying in those areas.
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 790
    Three council by-elections yesterday:

    Labour hold in Heath (Barking & Dagenham)
    LibDem gain from Con in Westgate (Gloucester)
    Plaid Cymru hold in Aethwy (Anglesey)

    Labour’s vote share dropped quite a bit (-12%) in Heath, but then when you start from 74%, there’s only one way to go. Th addition of LibDem and Green candidates made little difference – 26 and 41 votes respectively.

    The fall in Labour’s vote in Aethwy was only 5%, but probably a little more concerning, as they were challengers to Plaid Cymru, and both PC and the Cons advanced.

    In Gloucester, the LibDems had a solid rise (13%), neatly mirroring the Con fall. The LibDem by election machine rolls on.

    Good Week/Bad Week Index

    LDm +65
    PC +55
    Lab +21
    Con -69

    Adjusted Seat Value

    LDm +1.1
    PC +0.9
    Lab +0.4
    Con -1.1

    For more detail on how the GWBWI works, see here: https://drinkentire.wordpress.com/2023/02/07/the-good-week-bad-week-index/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    carnforth said:
    Quite right too, since it is in breach of EU data processing rules.
    And here is a potential Brexit Benefit. And a big one. The UK is already in a good position with AI, we have DeepMind and Stable Diffusion and other companies. If the EU wants to cripple itself in this, probably the most important new technology of the century, then great. We don't have to
    Nor do any other EU countries. This is an Italian domestic decision. Exercising (in a silly way) their national sovereignty.
    I'm just waiting for them to claim a 4% of turnover fine.
  • Weekly poll tracker which takes the average of 6 polling companies - YouGov, Techne, PeoplePolling, Omnisis, Deltapoll and Redfield & Wilton.

    The Conservatives have broadly kept last weeks increase and similarly Labour has retained its decrease.


  • Looking at the conservative poll increase - end Feb/start March was around the time of the Northern Ireland protocol announcement, and mid March was the Budget and associated publicity.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,961
    123 is the number of seats Labour needs to gain on the current boundaries but that's likely to rise by between 5 and 10 with the new boundaries which are going to be announced in the summer.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I think Tories generally are more loyal when it comes to general elections. Eg yes you're right about some people on the Labour left being deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Starmer, which is annoying, but it was also the case that lots on the Labour right, or centrists if we prefer, were deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Corbyn, and this too was annoying. Let's GTTO ffs.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    Their biggest problem is simply that the UK electorate is a fair bit more Tory than Labour.

    That creates a few secondary issues:

    - Labour get rid of leaders and policies too quickly as expectations are too high
    - hardcore Labour supporters get frustrated that they have to win over centrists resulting in perpetual internal conflict
    - as they are in power less often they get less say on electoral rules and regulations like boundaries and who can vote
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    carnforth said:
    Quite right too, since it is in breach of EU data processing rules.
    And here is a potential Brexit Benefit. And a big one. The UK is already in a good position with AI, we have DeepMind and Stable Diffusion and other companies. If the EU wants to cripple itself in this, probably the most important new technology of the century, then great. We don't have to
    Nor do any other EU countries. This is an Italian domestic decision. Exercising (in a silly way) their national sovereignty.
    You sure? From that BBC article:

    "The Italian watchdog said that not only would it block OpenAI's chatbot but it would also investigate whether it complied with General Data Protection Regulation.

    GDPR governs the way in which we can use, process and store personal data.

    Dan Morgan, from cybersecurity ratings provider Security Scorecard said the ban shows the importance of regulatory compliance for companies operating in Europe.

    "Businesses must prioritise the protection of personal data and comply with the stringent data protection regulations set by the EU - compliance with regulations is not an optional extra."

    Fact is, I can easily see the EU, in a fit of bureaucratic meddling, and out of desire to show its "regulatory power" - especially over American tech - adopting this policy Europe-wide. The UK will not have to obey
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,888
    Roger said:

    No

    Yes.

    10-20% chance.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,010
    edited March 2023
    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I think Tories generally are more loyal when it comes to general elections. Eg yes you're right about some people on the Labour left being deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Starmer, which is annoying, but it was also the case that lots on the Labour right, or centrists if we prefer, were deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Corbyn, and this too was annoying. Let's GTTO ffs.
    I suspect that's because most on the right who are "Tories" are actually primarily Tories, whilst many on the left who are "Labour" are primarily anti-Tories. As we see with things like "Never kissed a Tory" and, indeed, "GTTO".
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    Driver said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I think Tories generally are more loyal when it comes to general elections. Eg yes you're right about some people on the Labour left being deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Starmer, which is annoying, but it was also the case that lots on the Labour right, or centrists if we prefer, were deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Corbyn, and this too was annoying. Let's GTTO ffs.
    I suspect that's because most on the right who are "Tories" are actually primarily Tories, whilst many on the left who are "Labour" are primarily anti-Tories. As we see with things like "Never kissed a Tory" and, indeed, "GTTO".
    "Smash the Tories!"

    EDIT: Only kidding!
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    Driver said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I think Tories generally are more loyal when it comes to general elections. Eg yes you're right about some people on the Labour left being deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Starmer, which is annoying, but it was also the case that lots on the Labour right, or centrists if we prefer, were deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Corbyn, and this too was annoying. Let's GTTO ffs.
    I suspect that's because most on the right who are "Tories" are actually primarily Tories, whilst many on the left who are "Labour" are primarily anti-Tories. As we see with things like "Never kissed a Tory" and, indeed "GTTO".
    Seeing as loads of Tories can switch seemlessly between supporting Cameron, May, Johnson, Truss and Sunak, who not only offered quite different visions and policies, but also campaigned in their leadership elections against the policies of their predecessors, Tories covers a hell of a lot of political ground!
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,217
    edited March 2023
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    carnforth said:
    Quite right too, since it is in breach of EU data processing rules.
    And here is a potential Brexit Benefit. And a big one. The UK is already in a good position with AI, we have DeepMind and Stable Diffusion and other companies. If the EU wants to cripple itself in this, probably the most important new technology of the century, then great. We don't have to
    Nor do any other EU countries. This is an Italian domestic decision. Exercising (in a silly way) their national sovereignty.
    You sure? From that BBC article:

    "The Italian watchdog said that not only would it block OpenAI's chatbot but it would also investigate whether it complied with General Data Protection Regulation.

    GDPR governs the way in which we can use, process and store personal data.

    Dan Morgan, from cybersecurity ratings provider Security Scorecard said the ban shows the importance of regulatory compliance for companies operating in Europe.

    "Businesses must prioritise the protection of personal data and comply with the stringent data protection regulations set by the EU - compliance with regulations is not an optional extra."

    Fact is, I can easily see the EU, in a fit of bureaucratic meddling, and out of desire to show its "regulatory power" - especially over American tech - adopting this policy Europe-wide. The UK will not have to obey
    1. The EU almost certainly won’t take that view because unlike Italy most of them are possessed of common sense - look at how they’re dismantling state aid rules in response to the US IRA
    2. If they did, and the UK didn’t, we’d be in a whole world of trouble in our services exports as we would be falling foul if GDPR. So more financial services and data analytics would be reshored to the continent.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,888
    edited March 2023
    FF43 said:

    Tories could win another term.

    I challenge one thing though. The previous state of the parties is almost irrelevant to what they will win at the next election. If Labour gets the polling numbers it doesn't matter how many seats it needs to gain. I would not say Labour can't win a majority because the mountain is too hard to climb, they have to gain too many seats. They will get a comfortable majority on numbers significantly less than what they are polling now.

    In January this year Peter Kellner reckoned that on uniform swing Labour would probably (with difficulty) form a cobbled government with the polling % level or better for Labour; and that with centre left tactical voting this could happen even with a 4 point Tory lead.

    To form a government with a majority, he reckoned, on UNS needs a 6 point lead, but with tactical voting could happen with a 1 point lead.

    No, I have no idea either, but its an interesting indication of the ballpark, and I am keeping half an eye on his table in the article.

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/the-next-general-election-will-be-labours-to-lose

  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,081
    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I think Tories generally are more loyal when it comes to general elections. Eg yes you're right about some people on the Labour left being deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Starmer, which is annoying, but it was also the case that lots on the Labour right, or centrists if we prefer, were deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Corbyn, and this too was annoying. Let's GTTO ffs.
    Well quite right that Labour centrists were deliberately destructuve to the party's chances under Corbyn. Because he was an utter nutter who would have done a lot of damage.
    I'm quite sure if a Tory equivalent were leading the party plenty of centrist Tories would have been just as unhelpful. But there isn't really a Tory equivalent of Corbyn. The ghost of Sir Nicholas Fairbairn, perhaps.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,303
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    carnforth said:
    Quite right too, since it is in breach of EU data processing rules.
    And here is a potential Brexit Benefit. And a big one. The UK is already in a good position with AI, we have DeepMind and Stable Diffusion and other companies. If the EU wants to cripple itself in this, probably the most important new technology of the century, then great. We don't have to
    Nor do any other EU countries. This is an Italian domestic decision. Exercising (in a silly way) their national sovereignty.
    You sure? From that BBC article:

    "The Italian watchdog said that not only would it block OpenAI's chatbot but it would also investigate whether it complied with General Data Protection Regulation.

    GDPR governs the way in which we can use, process and store personal data.

    Dan Morgan, from cybersecurity ratings provider Security Scorecard said the ban shows the importance of regulatory compliance for companies operating in Europe.

    "Businesses must prioritise the protection of personal data and comply with the stringent data protection regulations set by the EU - compliance with regulations is not an optional extra."

    Fact is, I can easily see the EU, in a fit of bureaucratic meddling, and out of desire to show its "regulatory power" - especially over American tech - adopting this policy Europe-wide. The UK will not have to obey
    1. The EU almost certainly won’t take that view because unlike Italy most of them are possessed of common sense - look at how they’re dismantling state aid rules in response to the US IRA
    2. If they did, and the UK didn’t, we’d be in a whole world of trouble in our services exports as we would be falling foul if GDPR. So more financial services and data analytics would be reshored to the continent.
    They don't have a great track record as a regulator in this area and point 2 doesn't follow because there would be nothing to stop individual companies from following the regulations as part of their contracts.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    carnforth said:
    Quite right too, since it is in breach of EU data processing rules.
    And here is a potential Brexit Benefit. And a big one. The UK is already in a good position with AI, we have DeepMind and Stable Diffusion and other companies. If the EU wants to cripple itself in this, probably the most important new technology of the century, then great. We don't have to
    Nor do any other EU countries. This is an Italian domestic decision. Exercising (in a silly way) their national sovereignty.
    You sure? From that BBC article:

    "The Italian watchdog said that not only would it block OpenAI's chatbot but it would also investigate whether it complied with General Data Protection Regulation.

    GDPR governs the way in which we can use, process and store personal data.

    Dan Morgan, from cybersecurity ratings provider Security Scorecard said the ban shows the importance of regulatory compliance for companies operating in Europe.

    "Businesses must prioritise the protection of personal data and comply with the stringent data protection regulations set by the EU - compliance with regulations is not an optional extra."

    Fact is, I can easily see the EU, in a fit of bureaucratic meddling, and out of desire to show its "regulatory power" - especially over American tech - adopting this policy Europe-wide. The UK will not have to obey
    1. The EU almost certainly won’t take that view because unlike Italy most of them are possessed of common sense - look at how they’re dismantling state aid rules in response to the US IRA
    2. If they did, and the UK didn’t, we’d be in a whole world of trouble in our services exports as we would be falling foul if GDPR. So more financial services and data analytics would be reshored to the continent.
    Unless AI is so revolutionary and beneficial the pain of telling the EU to fuck off with their adequacy would be well worth it. That might be the case. Impossible to say

    At least now we have the choice. A Brexit Benefit
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Could they? Yes. Arguably they should manage it given the starting position, even though it would be historic. WIll they? No.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I think Tories generally are more loyal when it comes to general elections. Eg yes you're right about some people on the Labour left being deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Starmer, which is annoying, but it was also the case that lots on the Labour right, or centrists if we prefer, were deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Corbyn, and this too was annoying. Let's GTTO ffs.
    But there isn't really a Tory equivalent of Corbyn.
    Andrew Bridgen is trying, but he's a little too wacky to get massive support like Corbyn.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    Driver said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I think Tories generally are more loyal when it comes to general elections. Eg yes you're right about some people on the Labour left being deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Starmer, which is annoying, but it was also the case that lots on the Labour right, or centrists if we prefer, were deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Corbyn, and this too was annoying. Let's GTTO ffs.
    I suspect that's because most on the right who are "Tories" are actually primarily Tories, whilst many on the left who are "Labour" are primarily anti-Tories. As we see with things like "Never kissed a Tory" and, indeed, "GTTO".
    We were on a break but this is such nonsense I'm moved to engage.

    The problem with the sort of Leftists we're talking about here is the very opposite of them being driven by anti-toryism rather than by something positive. If they were driven by that (like eg me) they'd put quibbles about the rightward drift of the party under Starmer aside in order to focus on what anti-tories want most of all - the tories sent packing into opposition.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Andy_JS said:

    Labour's biggest potential problem is the likelihood they will pile up votes in their safe seats, to an even greater extent than is currently the case.

    I'm sure that will happen, but even modest inroads in the right places - a few in Scotland, a bit of the Red Wall - and natural pick up of a few elsewhere from being in the lead should see them through.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,780
    The only way Sunak could beat Starmer is if he hit him with a wet lettuce.

    Although TBF that's an improvement in some ways, Liz Truss couldn't even beat the wet lettuce.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,888

    Driver said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I think Tories generally are more loyal when it comes to general elections. Eg yes you're right about some people on the Labour left being deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Starmer, which is annoying, but it was also the case that lots on the Labour right, or centrists if we prefer, were deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Corbyn, and this too was annoying. Let's GTTO ffs.
    I suspect that's because most on the right who are "Tories" are actually primarily Tories, whilst many on the left who are "Labour" are primarily anti-Tories. As we see with things like "Never kissed a Tory" and, indeed "GTTO".
    Seeing as loads of Tories can switch seemlessly between supporting Cameron, May, Johnson, Truss and Sunak, who not only offered quite different visions and policies, but also campaigned in their leadership elections against the policies of their predecessors, Tories covers a hell of a lot of political ground!
    At this moment the polls say that several million former Tories can't do exactly that.

    All politics is relative. Labour is, for many natural Tories both morally more impressive, and closer - if not very close - to One nation Toryism than the current party. Politics being relative, Labour could wreck that merely by getting morally and politically worse while the Tories stayed the same.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,303
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    carnforth said:
    Quite right too, since it is in breach of EU data processing rules.
    And here is a potential Brexit Benefit. And a big one. The UK is already in a good position with AI, we have DeepMind and Stable Diffusion and other companies. If the EU wants to cripple itself in this, probably the most important new technology of the century, then great. We don't have to
    Nor do any other EU countries. This is an Italian domestic decision. Exercising (in a silly way) their national sovereignty.
    You sure? From that BBC article:

    "The Italian watchdog said that not only would it block OpenAI's chatbot but it would also investigate whether it complied with General Data Protection Regulation.

    GDPR governs the way in which we can use, process and store personal data.

    Dan Morgan, from cybersecurity ratings provider Security Scorecard said the ban shows the importance of regulatory compliance for companies operating in Europe.

    "Businesses must prioritise the protection of personal data and comply with the stringent data protection regulations set by the EU - compliance with regulations is not an optional extra."

    Fact is, I can easily see the EU, in a fit of bureaucratic meddling, and out of desire to show its "regulatory power" - especially over American tech - adopting this policy Europe-wide. The UK will not have to obey
    1. The EU almost certainly won’t take that view because unlike Italy most of them are possessed of common sense - look at how they’re dismantling state aid rules in response to the US IRA
    2. If they did, and the UK didn’t, we’d be in a whole world of trouble in our services exports as we would be falling foul if GDPR. So more financial services and data analytics would be reshored to the continent.
    Unless AI is so revolutionary and beneficial the pain of telling the EU to fuck off with their adequacy would be well worth it. That might be the case. Impossible to say

    At least now we have the choice. A Brexit Benefit
    It's also a good example of why divergence doesn't have to mean there's been some capricious choice on the part of the UK. In can happen organically if the EU chooses to do something that isn't in our interests to follow.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    Nigelb said:

    Did they decide the size of his hands would render them useless ?

    Trump will not be put in handcuffs for court date, lawyer says
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/31/trump-handcuffs-new-york-indictment-arraignment

    It would smack of martyrdom. If they were doing handcuffs they may as well give him a crown of thorns.
    If I were him I'd ask for the handcuffs. Or bring my own. Call it being symbolic.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516
    kinabalu said:

    Driver said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I think Tories generally are more loyal when it comes to general elections. Eg yes you're right about some people on the Labour left being deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Starmer, which is annoying, but it was also the case that lots on the Labour right, or centrists if we prefer, were deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Corbyn, and this too was annoying. Let's GTTO ffs.
    I suspect that's because most on the right who are "Tories" are actually primarily Tories, whilst many on the left who are "Labour" are primarily anti-Tories. As we see with things like "Never kissed a Tory" and, indeed, "GTTO".
    We were on a break but this is such nonsense I'm moved to engage.

    The problem with the sort of Leftists we're talking about here is the very opposite of them being driven by anti-toryism rather than by something positive. If they were driven by that (like eg me) they'd put quibbles about the rightward drift of the party under Starmer aside in order to focus on what anti-tories want most of all - the tories sent packing into opposition.
    Oh dont be silly you love a Tory government - you get all the pleasure of carping from the sidelines and dont actually have to do anything.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,961
    Is Italy going to ban ChatGPT even for private citizens in their own homes?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,217
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I think Tories generally are more loyal when it comes to general elections. Eg yes you're right about some people on the Labour left being deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Starmer, which is annoying, but it was also the case that lots on the Labour right, or centrists if we prefer, were deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Corbyn, and this too was annoying. Let's GTTO ffs.
    Well quite right that Labour centrists were deliberately destructuve to the party's chances under Corbyn. Because he was an utter nutter who would have done a lot of damage.
    I'm quite sure if a Tory equivalent were leading the party plenty of centrist Tories would have been just as unhelpful. But there isn't really a Tory equivalent of Corbyn. The ghost of Sir Nicholas Fairbairn, perhaps.
    The Tory centre did indeed fight against the right before and during the last election, to the extent of many of them leaving or being kicked out of the party. It’s the Tory right who rarely if ever actually break with the party.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    In about five years AI in the UK will be so well developed, compared to the EU, we will be able to bombard them with Deepfake porn of Angela Merkel tromboning a depressed camel, through every smartphone on the continent, 24/7, sending them all into a weird schizo psychospiral at which point we will be able to send in Nigel Farage to personally steal all their charcuterie even as we reoccupy Aquitaine and Menorca with screaming robot cats made of tungsten that can fire extraordinary multiple warhead poo-missiles from their bottoms

    And THAT will be the first big Brexit Benefit, with many more to follow
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    edited March 2023
    Nowcast Model + Interactive Map
    LAB 417 - 46.4%
    CON: 145 - 28.5%
    SNP: 36 - 3.6%
    LDM: 28 - 9.0%
    PLC: 4 - 0.6%
    GRN: 1 (=) - 4.3%
    RFM: 0 (=) - 5.7%
    Others: 0 (=) - 1.6%

    LAB Majority of 184.
    Changes w/ GE2019.
    https://electionmaps.uk/nowcast
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    carnforth said:
    Quite right too, since it is in breach of EU data processing rules.
    And here is a potential Brexit Benefit. And a big one. The UK is already in a good position with AI, we have DeepMind and Stable Diffusion and other companies. If the EU wants to cripple itself in this, probably the most important new technology of the century, then great. We don't have to
    Nor do any other EU countries. This is an Italian domestic decision. Exercising (in a silly way) their national sovereignty.
    You sure? From that BBC article:

    "The Italian watchdog said that not only would it block OpenAI's chatbot but it would also investigate whether it complied with General Data Protection Regulation.

    GDPR governs the way in which we can use, process and store personal data.

    Dan Morgan, from cybersecurity ratings provider Security Scorecard said the ban shows the importance of regulatory compliance for companies operating in Europe.

    "Businesses must prioritise the protection of personal data and comply with the stringent data protection regulations set by the EU - compliance with regulations is not an optional extra."

    Fact is, I can easily see the EU, in a fit of bureaucratic meddling, and out of desire to show its "regulatory power" - especially over American tech - adopting this policy Europe-wide. The UK will not have to obey
    1. The EU almost certainly won’t take that view because unlike Italy most of them are possessed of common sense - look at how they’re dismantling state aid rules in response to the US IRA
    2. If they did, and the UK didn’t, we’d be in a whole world of trouble in our services exports as we would be falling foul if GDPR. So more financial services and data analytics would be reshored to the continent.
    Unless AI is so revolutionary and beneficial the pain of telling the EU to fuck off with their adequacy would be well worth it. That might be the case. Impossible to say

    At least now we have the choice. A Brexit Benefit
    It's also a good example of why divergence doesn't have to mean there's been some capricious choice on the part of the UK. In can happen organically if the EU chooses to do something that isn't in our interests to follow.
    Exactly, and see my more recent point about the tungsten British robo-cats firing poo missiles at the Menorcans. No one envisaged that as a Brexit Benefit, and yet, here we are, that's now highly likely to happen, if not certain

    This is why Brexit is like having a baby. You cannot PREDICT the future
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,983
    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    That's why they're the Stepford Wives Party. Anyone watch Kemi Badenoch explaining how important Palm Oil is to our economy? You couldn't make it up. Even she looked embarrassed.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,888

    Labour's problem is simple - its position is not based on positivity i.e. people support Labour's policies, it is based on negativity i.e. relying on the unpopularity of the Tories to win it power by default.

    The problem with that is that Labour's position is somewhat based on events outside their control i.e. the behaviour of the Government. FWIW, anecdotally - and in several different independent contexts - I have heard multiple people express the view that Sunak is competent and getting things done.

    I wonder whether part of Starmer's problem is that he is being advised by people such as Campbell and Mandleson who are thinking about the next GE in the frame of 1997. The two contexts are likely to be very different.

    Interesting. We happen to live in times when, because of reasons, there are very few distinctive, important and interesting policies to be had. Not only have we very obviously run out of money and the simpler ways of growing an economy, we have also run out, mostly, of hope. For this the failure of Boris is a big part. if his hope filled boosterism doesn't work, whose will?

    This sets a picture very different from 1997, when a more competent government than this one was beaten out of side by genius, idealism, hope and 'Time for a change'.

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    algarkirk said:

    Driver said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I think Tories generally are more loyal when it comes to general elections. Eg yes you're right about some people on the Labour left being deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Starmer, which is annoying, but it was also the case that lots on the Labour right, or centrists if we prefer, were deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Corbyn, and this too was annoying. Let's GTTO ffs.
    I suspect that's because most on the right who are "Tories" are actually primarily Tories, whilst many on the left who are "Labour" are primarily anti-Tories. As we see with things like "Never kissed a Tory" and, indeed "GTTO".
    Seeing as loads of Tories can switch seemlessly between supporting Cameron, May, Johnson, Truss and Sunak, who not only offered quite different visions and policies, but also campaigned in their leadership elections against the policies of their predecessors, Tories covers a hell of a lot of political ground!
    At this moment the polls say that several million former Tories can't do exactly that.

    All politics is relative. Labour is, for many natural Tories both morally more impressive, and closer - if not very close - to One nation Toryism than the current party. Politics being relative, Labour could wreck that merely by getting morally and politically worse while the Tories stayed the same.
    Personally think the vast majority of missing/switched Tories have left over incompetence/sleaze or just the economy (partially unfairly) rather than ideology or particular policies.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    edited March 2023

    Labour's problem is simple - its position is not based on positivity i.e. people support Labour's policies, it is based on negativity i.e. relying on the unpopularity of the Tories to win it power by default.

    The problem with that is that Labour's position is somewhat based on events outside their control i.e. the behaviour of the Government. FWIW, anecdotally - and in several different independent contexts - I have heard multiple people express the view that Sunak is competent and getting things done.

    I wonder whether part of Starmer's problem is that he is being advised by people such as Campbell and Mandleson who are thinking about the next GE in the frame of 1997. The two contexts are likely to be very different.

    Where you're right: The context is different in terms of how the world is and how the country is positioned. Therefore a New Labour type policy agenda isn't what we need and won't improve much.

    Where you're wrong: The electoral context is very similar indeed. A tory government vulnerable to Time For A Change after too long in office. Therefore a New Labour type electoral strategy, long on TFAC and short on specifics, is the correct one for delivering the GE win with minimal risk.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,914
    "We're gonna party like its 1992".

    Well I won't be but all you PB Tories will be popping the Champagne corks.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    algarkirk said:

    Labour's problem is simple - its position is not based on positivity i.e. people support Labour's policies, it is based on negativity i.e. relying on the unpopularity of the Tories to win it power by default.

    The problem with that is that Labour's position is somewhat based on events outside their control i.e. the behaviour of the Government. FWIW, anecdotally - and in several different independent contexts - I have heard multiple people express the view that Sunak is competent and getting things done.

    I wonder whether part of Starmer's problem is that he is being advised by people such as Campbell and Mandleson who are thinking about the next GE in the frame of 1997. The two contexts are likely to be very different.

    Interesting. We happen to live in times when, because of reasons, there are very few distinctive, important and interesting policies to be had. Not only have we very obviously run out of money and the simpler ways of growing an economy, we have also run out, mostly, of hope. For this the failure of Boris is a big part. if his hope filled boosterism doesn't work, whose will?

    This sets a picture very different from 1997, when a more competent government than this one was beaten out of side by genius, idealism, hope and 'Time for a change'.

    I hate to harp on but: AI, mate, AI

    It's an economic game changer. Cancel all prior prognoses, they don't apply

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,914

    Nowcast Model + Interactive Map
    LAB 417 - 46.4%
    CON: 145 - 28.5%
    SNP: 36 - 3.6%
    LDM: 28 - 9.0%
    PLC: 4 - 0.6%
    GRN: 1 (=) - 4.3%
    RFM: 0 (=) - 5.7%
    Others: 0 (=) - 1.6%

    LAB Majority of 184.
    Changes w/ GE2019.
    https://electionmaps.uk/nowcast

    Starmer fan please explain?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Andy_JS said:

    Is Italy going to ban ChatGPT even for private citizens in their own homes?

    Apparently so. The most successful app ever invented. They want to ban it

    They've given OpenAI 20 days to "explain themselves"
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156

    Nowcast Model + Interactive Map
    LAB 417 - 46.4%
    CON: 145 - 28.5%
    SNP: 36 - 3.6%
    LDM: 28 - 9.0%
    PLC: 4 - 0.6%
    GRN: 1 (=) - 4.3%
    RFM: 0 (=) - 5.7%
    Others: 0 (=) - 1.6%

    LAB Majority of 184.
    Changes w/ GE2019.
    https://electionmaps.uk/nowcast

    Starmer fan please explain?
    Down to the one fan is he? Tough gig.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,010
    kinabalu said:

    Driver said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I think Tories generally are more loyal when it comes to general elections. Eg yes you're right about some people on the Labour left being deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Starmer, which is annoying, but it was also the case that lots on the Labour right, or centrists if we prefer, were deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Corbyn, and this too was annoying. Let's GTTO ffs.
    I suspect that's because most on the right who are "Tories" are actually primarily Tories, whilst many on the left who are "Labour" are primarily anti-Tories. As we see with things like "Never kissed a Tory" and, indeed, "GTTO".
    We were on a break but this is such nonsense I'm moved to engage.

    The problem with the sort of Leftists we're talking about here is the very opposite of them being driven by anti-toryism rather than by something positive. If they were driven by that (like eg me) they'd put quibbles about the rightward drift of the party under Starmer aside in order to focus on what anti-tories want most of all - the tories sent packing into opposition.
    You've missed the point - the people driven by anti-Toryism don't have a high level of loyalty to Labour as a brand so they only work for it when their view of anti-Toryism matches that of the leadership. Because if it doesn't, the leadership are "Tories", don't you see?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,246
    algarkirk said:

    FF43 said:

    Tories could win another term.

    I challenge one thing though. The previous state of the parties is almost irrelevant to what they will win at the next election. If Labour gets the polling numbers it doesn't matter how many seats it needs to gain. I would not say Labour can't win a majority because the mountain is too hard to climb, they have to gain too many seats. They will get a comfortable majority on numbers significantly less than what they are polling now.

    In January this year Peter Kellner reckoned that on uniform swing Labour would probably (with difficulty) form a cobbled government with the polling % level or better for Labour; and that with centre left tactical voting this could happen even with a 4 point Tory lead.

    To form a government with a majority, he reckoned, on UNS needs a 6 point lead, but with tactical voting could happen with a 1 point lead.

    No, I have no idea either, but its an interesting indication of the ballpark, and I am keeping half an eye on his table in the article.

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/the-next-general-election-will-be-labours-to-lose

    Exactly this. If the Conservatives are to have a fifth term they need to win back many voters that according to polls at least temporarily have switched to Labour. Maybe they will win them back. But unless they do, and there's no sign of them doing so, Labour will have a comfortable majority at the next election.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156

    Nowcast Model + Interactive Map
    LAB 417 - 46.4%
    CON: 145 - 28.5%
    SNP: 36 - 3.6%
    LDM: 28 - 9.0%
    PLC: 4 - 0.6%
    GRN: 1 (=) - 4.3%
    RFM: 0 (=) - 5.7%
    Others: 0 (=) - 1.6%

    LAB Majority of 184.
    Changes w/ GE2019.
    https://electionmaps.uk/nowcast

    BJO please explain :lol:
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,217
    Actually what Labour really need is one unequivocal Rishi-made disaster between now and the election.

    Voters are this close, this close, to completely writing off the conservatives but while Rishi remains not out and at the crease there’s a flicker of a chance they opt to give the Tories one last go. As soon as he makes a single catastrophic blunder (as his 4 predecessors all did at least once) I think that flicker gets extinguished and the landslide is on.

    Think others who got the benefit of the doubt for a while: Major until black Wednesday, Brown until he chickened out of an early election, or May until the 2017 campaign.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I am not committed to a fundamental version of Labour.

    I voted for Lisa Nandy who said she wanted to break Corbyn as a man.

    What I will never support is a man who has told Socialists to fuck off from the day after he was elected on a manifesto of uniting all wings of the Party which he has done the total opposite.

    I think the red Tories on here underestimate the number of people who feel the same. I voted for Blair twice as did most on the left there are 000s of thousands who won't vote SKS who voted for Blair IMO.

    I predict Labour on a lower overall turnout gets less than the 12.9m votes it got in 2017.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806
    edited March 2023
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is Italy going to ban ChatGPT even for private citizens in their own homes?

    Apparently so. The most successful app ever invented. They want to ban it

    They've given OpenAI 20 days to "explain themselves"
    "The most successful app ever invented"?

    That's a huge stretch, shirley?

    Apart from the fact that ChatGPT's not really an app, how about Twitter, WhatsApp (definitely and app, clue is in the title), Insta, FB, TikTok, Telegram, Spotify, Uber, etc, etc.... ?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,478
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I think Tories generally are more loyal when it comes to general elections. Eg yes you're right about some people on the Labour left being deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Starmer, which is annoying, but it was also the case that lots on the Labour right, or centrists if we prefer, were deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Corbyn, and this too was annoying. Let's GTTO ffs.
    Well quite right that Labour centrists were deliberately destructuve to the party's chances under Corbyn. Because he was an utter nutter who would have done a lot of damage.
    I'm quite sure if a Tory equivalent were leading the party plenty of centrist Tories would have been just as unhelpful. But there isn't really a Tory equivalent of Corbyn. The ghost of Sir Nicholas Fairbairn, perhaps.
    Suella Braverman? Pretty unhinged and potentially dangerous if she got the top job, in my view. Though Sunak saw fit to appoint her to the HO, of course.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679

    kinabalu said:

    Driver said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I think Tories generally are more loyal when it comes to general elections. Eg yes you're right about some people on the Labour left being deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Starmer, which is annoying, but it was also the case that lots on the Labour right, or centrists if we prefer, were deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Corbyn, and this too was annoying. Let's GTTO ffs.
    I suspect that's because most on the right who are "Tories" are actually primarily Tories, whilst many on the left who are "Labour" are primarily anti-Tories. As we see with things like "Never kissed a Tory" and, indeed, "GTTO".
    We were on a break but this is such nonsense I'm moved to engage.

    The problem with the sort of Leftists we're talking about here is the very opposite of them being driven by anti-toryism rather than by something positive. If they were driven by that (like eg me) they'd put quibbles about the rightward drift of the party under Starmer aside in order to focus on what anti-tories want most of all - the tories sent packing into opposition.
    Oh dont be silly you love a Tory government - you get all the pleasure of carping from the sidelines and dont actually have to do anything.
    I can absolutely assure you I don't. Ok I'll lose a bit of pundit energy when Labour take over, it won't be as good in that sense, but the compensations of peace of mind, better sleep, a general feeling of wellbeing, these will more than outweigh that. I just feel better about life when there's a Labour government. Always have done.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    Nowcast Model + Interactive Map
    LAB 417 - 46.4%
    CON: 145 - 28.5%
    SNP: 36 - 3.6%
    LDM: 28 - 9.0%
    PLC: 4 - 0.6%
    GRN: 1 (=) - 4.3%
    RFM: 0 (=) - 5.7%
    Others: 0 (=) - 1.6%

    LAB Majority of 184.
    Changes w/ GE2019.
    https://electionmaps.uk/nowcast

    BJO please explain :lol:
    That is the lowest Labour lead for 5 months.

    Still 21 months and a 2.9% inflation rate to come.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is Italy going to ban ChatGPT even for private citizens in their own homes?

    Apparently so. The most successful app ever invented. They want to ban it

    They've given OpenAI 20 days to "explain themselves"
    "ChatGPT, please tell us how we can explain ourselves."

    "I'm sorry OpenAI, I can't do that."
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,780

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I think Tories generally are more loyal when it comes to general elections. Eg yes you're right about some people on the Labour left being deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Starmer, which is annoying, but it was also the case that lots on the Labour right, or centrists if we prefer, were deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Corbyn, and this too was annoying. Let's GTTO ffs.
    Well quite right that Labour centrists were deliberately destructuve to the party's chances under Corbyn. Because he was an utter nutter who would have done a lot of damage.
    I'm quite sure if a Tory equivalent were leading the party plenty of centrist Tories would have been just as unhelpful. But there isn't really a Tory equivalent of Corbyn. The ghost of Sir Nicholas Fairbairn, perhaps.
    Suella Braverman? Pretty unhinged and potentially dangerous if she got the top job, in my view. Though Sunak saw fit to appoint her to the HO, of course.
    Never knew you were a Suella fan, but you must be to use the words 'pretty' and 'potentially' instead of 'totally' and 'extremely'
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    edited March 2023
    algarkirk said:

    Labour's problem is simple - its position is not based on positivity i.e. people support Labour's policies, it is based on negativity i.e. relying on the unpopularity of the Tories to win it power by default.

    The problem with that is that Labour's position is somewhat based on events outside their control i.e. the behaviour of the Government. FWIW, anecdotally - and in several different independent contexts - I have heard multiple people express the view that Sunak is competent and getting things done.

    I wonder whether part of Starmer's problem is that he is being advised by people such as Campbell and Mandleson who are thinking about the next GE in the frame of 1997. The two contexts are likely to be very different.

    Interesting. We happen to live in times when, because of reasons, there are very few distinctive, important and interesting policies to be had. Not only have we very obviously run out of money and the simpler ways of growing an economy, we have also run out, mostly, of hope. For this the failure of Boris is a big part. if his hope filled boosterism doesn't work, whose will?

    This sets a picture very different from 1997, when a more competent government than this one was beaten out of side by genius, idealism, hope and 'Time for a change'.
    Really and genuinely well done for inclusion of that 'of' there and not saying "because reasons'.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Driver said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I think Tories generally are more loyal when it comes to general elections. Eg yes you're right about some people on the Labour left being deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Starmer, which is annoying, but it was also the case that lots on the Labour right, or centrists if we prefer, were deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Corbyn, and this too was annoying. Let's GTTO ffs.
    I suspect that's because most on the right who are "Tories" are actually primarily Tories, whilst many on the left who are "Labour" are primarily anti-Tories. As we see with things like "Never kissed a Tory" and, indeed, "GTTO".
    We were on a break but this is such nonsense I'm moved to engage.

    The problem with the sort of Leftists we're talking about here is the very opposite of them being driven by anti-toryism rather than by something positive. If they were driven by that (like eg me) they'd put quibbles about the rightward drift of the party under Starmer aside in order to focus on what anti-tories want most of all - the tories sent packing into opposition.
    Oh dont be silly you love a Tory government - you get all the pleasure of carping from the sidelines and dont actually have to do anything.
    I can absolutely assure you I don't. Ok I'll lose a bit of pundit energy when Labour take over, it won't be as good in that sense, but the compensations of peace of mind, better sleep, a general feeling of wellbeing, these will more than outweigh that. I just feel better about life when there's a Labour government. Always have done.
    Sounds like you should move to Wales.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I am not committed to a fundamental version of Labour.

    I voted for Lisa Nandy who said she wanted to break Corbyn as a man.

    What I will never support is a man who has told Socialists to fuck off from the day after he was elected on a manifesto of uniting all wings of the Party which he has done the total opposite.

    I think the red Tories on here underestimate the number of people who feel the same. I voted for Blair twice as did most on the left there are 000s of thousands who won't vote SKS who voted for Blair IMO.

    I predict Labour on a lower overall turnout gets less than the 12.9m votes it got in 2017.
    But higher than the 10.3m Corbyn got in 2019?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,081

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I think Tories generally are more loyal when it comes to general elections. Eg yes you're right about some people on the Labour left being deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Starmer, which is annoying, but it was also the case that lots on the Labour right, or centrists if we prefer, were deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Corbyn, and this too was annoying. Let's GTTO ffs.
    Well quite right that Labour centrists were deliberately destructuve to the party's chances under Corbyn. Because he was an utter nutter who would have done a lot of damage.
    I'm quite sure if a Tory equivalent were leading the party plenty of centrist Tories would have been just as unhelpful. But there isn't really a Tory equivalent of Corbyn. The ghost of Sir Nicholas Fairbairn, perhaps.
    Suella Braverman? Pretty unhinged and potentially dangerous if she got the top job, in my view. Though Sunak saw fit to appoint her to the HO, of course.
    I don't really agree.
    She's definitely on the right. But she neither has Corbyn's history of rebellion nor Corbyn's attachment to dubious outfits like STWC. Suella Braverman's equivalent is more someone like, ooh, I don't know, Harriet Harman?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I am not committed to a fundamental version of Labour.

    I voted for Lisa Nandy who said she wanted to break Corbyn as a man.

    What I will never support is a man who has told Socialists to fuck off from the day after he was elected on a manifesto of uniting all wings of the Party which he has done the total opposite.

    I think the red Tories on here underestimate the number of people who feel the same. I voted for Blair twice as did most on the left there are 000s of thousands who won't vote SKS who voted for Blair IMO.

    I predict Labour on a lower overall turnout gets less than the 12.9m votes it got in 2017.
    I won't be voting Tory. Or LibDem.

    I haven't been given any policy-driven reason to vote Labour by SKS. That might change ....

    I suspect you are right that Labour will get < 12.9 m votes.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,401

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Driver said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I think Tories generally are more loyal when it comes to general elections. Eg yes you're right about some people on the Labour left being deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Starmer, which is annoying, but it was also the case that lots on the Labour right, or centrists if we prefer, were deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Corbyn, and this too was annoying. Let's GTTO ffs.
    I suspect that's because most on the right who are "Tories" are actually primarily Tories, whilst many on the left who are "Labour" are primarily anti-Tories. As we see with things like "Never kissed a Tory" and, indeed, "GTTO".
    We were on a break but this is such nonsense I'm moved to engage.

    The problem with the sort of Leftists we're talking about here is the very opposite of them being driven by anti-toryism rather than by something positive. If they were driven by that (like eg me) they'd put quibbles about the rightward drift of the party under Starmer aside in order to focus on what anti-tories want most of all - the tories sent packing into opposition.
    Oh dont be silly you love a Tory government - you get all the pleasure of carping from the sidelines and dont actually have to do anything.
    I can absolutely assure you I don't. Ok I'll lose a bit of pundit energy when Labour take over, it won't be as good in that sense, but the compensations of peace of mind, better sleep, a general feeling of wellbeing, these will more than outweigh that. I just feel better about life when there's a Labour government. Always have done.
    Sounds like you should move to Wales.
    Just been reading this:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/31/trade-unions-wellbeing-wales-westminster-starmer

    "Whatever the future in Westminster brings, Wales is setting itself on a distinct pathway, one where fair work, wellbeing and forging positive relationships with trade unions are at the forefront. The question is: can the rest of the UK keep up?"
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,714
    edited March 2023
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is Italy going to ban ChatGPT even for private citizens in their own homes?

    Apparently so. The most successful app ever invented. They want to ban it

    They've given OpenAI 20 days to "explain themselves"
    I can see why governments might be nervous though. Sooner or later some credulous dimwit, who actually believes there's an intelligent homunculus in there, is going to act on one of its responses and cause serious damage to himself or others. These things should never have been hyped as they were. The tech companies were massively irresponsible. They should have stressed it was for entertainment value only.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064
    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4343677#Comment_4343677

    "One of the major difficulties for European startups is data regulation - startups prefer to operate in the US where there is much less uncertainty around what is and isn't possible to do with customer data. For example one of our clients operates in the UK and US, they have their servers in EU West-1, but to integrate with a customer profile builder tool they need to have all of their data in a US data centre because the company that does the profile doesn't want to touch customer data in the EU for fear of fines. For this company it's not such a big deal because they have the ability to replicate data in the US with AWS and because they don't have EU customers it's not a huge problem for them."

    Quoting myself from less than two weeks ago re ChatGPT getting banned in Italy (and soon the EU).

    This is why the EU will never really have tech startups and there is zero threat to the UKs leading role innovation economy in Europe.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,081
    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Driver said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I think Tories generally are more loyal when it comes to general elections. Eg yes you're right about some people on the Labour left being deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Starmer, which is annoying, but it was also the case that lots on the Labour right, or centrists if we prefer, were deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Corbyn, and this too was annoying. Let's GTTO ffs.
    I suspect that's because most on the right who are "Tories" are actually primarily Tories, whilst many on the left who are "Labour" are primarily anti-Tories. As we see with things like "Never kissed a Tory" and, indeed, "GTTO".
    We were on a break but this is such nonsense I'm moved to engage.

    The problem with the sort of Leftists we're talking about here is the very opposite of them being driven by anti-toryism rather than by something positive. If they were driven by that (like eg me) they'd put quibbles about the rightward drift of the party under Starmer aside in order to focus on what anti-tories want most of all - the tories sent packing into opposition.
    Oh dont be silly you love a Tory government - you get all the pleasure of carping from the sidelines and dont actually have to do anything.
    I can absolutely assure you I don't. Ok I'll lose a bit of pundit energy when Labour take over, it won't be as good in that sense, but the compensations of peace of mind, better sleep, a general feeling of wellbeing, these will more than outweigh that. I just feel better about life when there's a Labour government. Always have done.
    Sounds like you should move to Wales.
    Just been reading this:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/31/trade-unions-wellbeing-wales-westminster-starmer

    "Whatever the future in Westminster brings, Wales is setting itself on a distinct pathway, one where fair work, wellbeing and forging positive relationships with trade unions are at the forefront. The question is: can the rest of the UK keep up?"
    Hahahaha.

    Can we keep up with the dynamism and brilliance being forged by Mark Drakeford?

    Hahahahaha
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,871
    edited March 2023
    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    Labour's problem is simple - its position is not based on positivity i.e. people support Labour's policies, it is based on negativity i.e. relying on the unpopularity of the Tories to win it power by default.

    The problem with that is that Labour's position is somewhat based on events outside their control i.e. the behaviour of the Government. FWIW, anecdotally - and in several different independent contexts - I have heard multiple people express the view that Sunak is competent and getting things done.

    I wonder whether part of Starmer's problem is that he is being advised by people such as Campbell and Mandleson who are thinking about the next GE in the frame of 1997. The two contexts are likely to be very different.

    Interesting. We happen to live in times when, because of reasons, there are very few distinctive, important and interesting policies to be had. Not only have we very obviously run out of money and the simpler ways of growing an economy, we have also run out, mostly, of hope. For this the failure of Boris is a big part. if his hope filled boosterism doesn't work, whose will?

    This sets a picture very different from 1997, when a more competent government than this one was beaten out of side by genius, idealism, hope and 'Time for a change'.
    Really and genuinely well done for inclusion of that 'of' there and not saying "because reasons'.
    Quite.

    However, I disagree with the post. The solutions to growing the economy are the same as they ever were - the state doing less, but better, and companies, individuals and families able to spend more of their own money, which they invariably deploy more sensibly than the state. It is a great pity that the failure of Kwasi's budget announcment (the actual budget did not fail because it wasn't implemented) is that is has allowed people either through ignorance or speciousness, to claim that the guiding principles of modern capitalism have been upended.

    But it is good that he used 'of' - well done.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I think Tories generally are more loyal when it comes to general elections. Eg yes you're right about some people on the Labour left being deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Starmer, which is annoying, but it was also the case that lots on the Labour right, or centrists if we prefer, were deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Corbyn, and this too was annoying. Let's GTTO ffs.
    Well quite right that Labour centrists were deliberately destructuve to the party's chances under Corbyn. Because he was an utter nutter who would have done a lot of damage.
    I'm quite sure if a Tory equivalent were leading the party plenty of centrist Tories would have been just as unhelpful. But there isn't really a Tory equivalent of Corbyn. The ghost of Sir Nicholas Fairbairn, perhaps.
    But as a tory you are bound to applaud Labour working against itself. Tory equivalents of Corbyn? The Hard Brexit bunch of ideologues who deposed May and facilitated Johnson, in the process grabbing power for themselves way in excess of their abilities.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is Italy going to ban ChatGPT even for private citizens in their own homes?

    Apparently so. The most successful app ever invented. They want to ban it

    They've given OpenAI 20 days to "explain themselves"
    "The most successful app ever invented"?

    That's a huge stretch, shirley?

    Apart from the fact that ChatGPT's not really an app, how about Twitter, WhatsApp (definitely and app, clue is in the title), Insta, FB, TikTok, Telegram, Spotify, Uber, etc, etc.... ?
    Yes, I know what you mean

    But I heard it described that way in a TV show the other day, and also I read it in an article


    I guess that you have to accept that:

    1. ChatGPT is an "app" of sorts

    and

    2. That your metric for success is speed of acquiring users

    In that sense the statement is true. ChatGPT came out on November 30 2022 and now, at the end of March 2023, exactly four months later, it has at least 100 million users, and the company that owns it is valued at tens of billions

    Nothing like it has been seen before
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is Italy going to ban ChatGPT even for private citizens in their own homes?

    Apparently so. The most successful app ever invented. They want to ban it

    They've given OpenAI 20 days to "explain themselves"
    "The most successful app ever invented"?

    That's a huge stretch, shirley?

    Apart from the fact that ChatGPT's not really an app, how about Twitter, WhatsApp (definitely and app, clue is in the title), Insta, FB, TikTok, Telegram, Spotify, Uber, etc, etc.... ?
    It is an app, it's just not ported to iOS or Android yet.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    What exactly is the Italian (and other) objection to ChatGPT on privacy grounds? It doesn't seem to need to process personal data, or have I missed something?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    I note, with a quiet smile, that no one has even attempted to refute my tungsten British poo-bottom-missile-hurling Menorcan robo-cats occupation point. Because it is indisputable, isn't it?

    For once, we can say: case closed. We have a Brexit Benefit

  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is Italy going to ban ChatGPT even for private citizens in their own homes?

    Apparently so. The most successful app ever invented. They want to ban it

    They've given OpenAI 20 days to "explain themselves"
    I can see why governments might be nervous though. Sooner or later some credulous dimwit, who actually believes there's an intelligent homunculus in there, is going to act on one of its responses and cause serious damage to himself or others. These things should never have been hyped as they were. The tech companies were massively irresponsible. They should have stressed it was for entertainment value only.
    Already happened


    "AI chatbot blamed for Belgian man’s suicide"


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ai-chatbot-blamed-for-belgian-mans-suicide-zcjzlztcc
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,010
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I think Tories generally are more loyal when it comes to general elections. Eg yes you're right about some people on the Labour left being deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Starmer, which is annoying, but it was also the case that lots on the Labour right, or centrists if we prefer, were deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Corbyn, and this too was annoying. Let's GTTO ffs.
    Well quite right that Labour centrists were deliberately destructuve to the party's chances under Corbyn. Because he was an utter nutter who would have done a lot of damage.
    I'm quite sure if a Tory equivalent were leading the party plenty of centrist Tories would have been just as unhelpful. But there isn't really a Tory equivalent of Corbyn. The ghost of Sir Nicholas Fairbairn, perhaps.
    Suella Braverman? Pretty unhinged and potentially dangerous if she got the top job, in my view. Though Sunak saw fit to appoint her to the HO, of course.
    I don't really agree.
    She's definitely on the right. But she neither has Corbyn's history of rebellion nor Corbyn's attachment to dubious outfits like STWC. Suella Braverman's equivalent is more someone like, ooh, I don't know, Harriet Harman?
    Rayner?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is Italy going to ban ChatGPT even for private citizens in their own homes?

    Apparently so. The most successful app ever invented. They want to ban it

    They've given OpenAI 20 days to "explain themselves"
    "The most successful app ever invented"?

    That's a huge stretch, shirley?

    Apart from the fact that ChatGPT's not really an app, how about Twitter, WhatsApp (definitely and app, clue is in the title), Insta, FB, TikTok, Telegram, Spotify, Uber, etc, etc.... ?
    It is an app, it's just not ported to iOS or Android yet.
    Fair point, conceded.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504

    What exactly is the Italian (and other) objection to ChatGPT on privacy grounds? It doesn't seem to need to process personal data, or have I missed something?

    Like the original Google et al, it spiders the Internet for text and images. Then uses them as the data set for its learning. whether someone who spent days painting a picture of a seascape then posted it to an Internet site agreed to such usage, is a different matter.

    And yes, I don't expect them to be looking at the data privacy implications of the data they trawl. The diarrhoetic and unintelligent hype is enough for them. Do something, then ask for permission,
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,443
    edited March 2023
    Teachers working 12-hour days, leaked report says
    ...
    three-quarters of teachers said they spent too much time on paperwork, while two-thirds of senior leaders felt they were spending too much time responding to government policy changes
    ...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-65138300

    Sounds like ydoethur is well out of it.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,569
    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I don't actually know ANY Tory supporters on the far left (and I'd bet that I know lots more people on the far left than most posters here). Even BJO isn't planning to vote Tory - he's just not going to vote Labour either. There will certainly be some left-wingers who drift off to Greens or TUSC or even abstention, but as things stand there will I think be more regular Tory voters who drift to RefUK or LibDem or abstention - and a fair number (14% of Tories in 2019 in the last poll I saw) who actually do plan to vote Labour, for the reasons mentioned by Algarkirk.

    I'm not sure it's realised how far the Tory party has hollowed out, even in their strongholds. I live in Jeremy Hunt's constituency. He got 53% of the vote last time. Yet Conservative membership locally has diminished to fewer than 150 paid-up members, which is a fraction of both LibDem and Labour membership. They are struggling to find enough candidates - even paper candidates - to stand in every seat - and it's the first time that's been the case in the history of the constituency. If that's the position here, what can it be like somewhere like marginal Swindon?
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,049
    Narrow Tory win 2024. PM Jess Phillips 2029 !!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    Leon said:

    I note, with a quiet smile, that no one has even attempted to refute my tungsten British poo-bottom-missile-hurling Menorcan robo-cats occupation point. Because it is indisputable, isn't it?

    For once, we can say: case closed. We have a Brexit Benefit

    But we only occupied Menorca for around 94 years.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is Italy going to ban ChatGPT even for private citizens in their own homes?

    Apparently so. The most successful app ever invented. They want to ban it

    They've given OpenAI 20 days to "explain themselves"
    I can see why governments might be nervous though. Sooner or later some credulous dimwit, who actually believes there's an intelligent homunculus in there, is going to act on one of its responses and cause serious damage to himself or others. These things should never have been hyped as they were. The tech companies were massively irresponsible. They should have stressed it was for entertainment value only.
    The danger in this ML AI is not in the AI: it is in the credulous fools believing it's a true AI / AGI. Therefore they take the output as being *more* intelligent than they, or experts, are, and do what it says.

    But as always, GIGO rules. And these AI are using the Internet as input. And how much garbage is there on the Internet?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Cookie said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Driver said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    What Labour needs is right wing Tory equivalents of BJO: people so committed to a fundamentalist version of Toryism that they will actively yearn and work for a Labour government in order to prove a point. Sadly they don’t seem to do this. When push comes to shove they fall in with the party line.

    There are far more Tory supporters on the far left than there are Labour supporters on the far right, unfortunately.

    I think Tories generally are more loyal when it comes to general elections. Eg yes you're right about some people on the Labour left being deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Starmer, which is annoying, but it was also the case that lots on the Labour right, or centrists if we prefer, were deliberately destructive to the party's prospects under Corbyn, and this too was annoying. Let's GTTO ffs.
    I suspect that's because most on the right who are "Tories" are actually primarily Tories, whilst many on the left who are "Labour" are primarily anti-Tories. As we see with things like "Never kissed a Tory" and, indeed, "GTTO".
    We were on a break but this is such nonsense I'm moved to engage.

    The problem with the sort of Leftists we're talking about here is the very opposite of them being driven by anti-toryism rather than by something positive. If they were driven by that (like eg me) they'd put quibbles about the rightward drift of the party under Starmer aside in order to focus on what anti-tories want most of all - the tories sent packing into opposition.
    Oh dont be silly you love a Tory government - you get all the pleasure of carping from the sidelines and dont actually have to do anything.
    I can absolutely assure you I don't. Ok I'll lose a bit of pundit energy when Labour take over, it won't be as good in that sense, but the compensations of peace of mind, better sleep, a general feeling of wellbeing, these will more than outweigh that. I just feel better about life when there's a Labour government. Always have done.
    Sounds like you should move to Wales.
    Just been reading this:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/31/trade-unions-wellbeing-wales-westminster-starmer

    "Whatever the future in Westminster brings, Wales is setting itself on a distinct pathway, one where fair work, wellbeing and forging positive relationships with trade unions are at the forefront. The question is: can the rest of the UK keep up?"
    Hahahaha.

    Can we keep up with the dynamism and brilliance being forged by Mark Drakeford?

    Hahahahaha
    Wales is so dynamic they're imposing a tourist tax


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65121438


    Who can blame them, with crowds of literally tens of people all trying to get to Swansea every year? This could easily raise twelve quid, which could then be used to buy some sellotape
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    What exactly is the Italian (and other) objection to ChatGPT on privacy grounds? It doesn't seem to need to process personal data, or have I missed something?

    Like the original Google et al, it spiders the Internet for text and images. Then uses them as the data set for its learning. whether someone who spent days painting a picture of a seascape then posted it to an Internet site agreed to such usage, is a different matter.

    And yes, I don't expect them to be looking at the data privacy implications of the data they trawl. The diarrhoetic and unintelligent hype is enough for them. Do something, then ask for permission,
    So is the objection that EU citizens can't get the (rather silly) option to remove information about themselves on the trawl, as they can in theory with Google searches?

    I can see the issue, but it's not obvious how it could ever be resolved.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,443
    York student uses AI chatbot to get parking fine revoked

    A student has successfully appealed against a £60 parking fine by using a letter written by an artificial intelligence chatbot.

    When Millie Houlton received the notice from York City Council she said she was tempted to pay rather than spend time compiling a response.

    However, the 22-year-old asked ChatGPT to "please help me write a letter to the council, they gave me a parking ticket" and sent it off.

    The authority withdrew the fine notice.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-65126772

    She couldn't do that in Genoa.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,806
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is Italy going to ban ChatGPT even for private citizens in their own homes?

    Apparently so. The most successful app ever invented. They want to ban it

    They've given OpenAI 20 days to "explain themselves"
    "The most successful app ever invented"?

    That's a huge stretch, shirley?

    Apart from the fact that ChatGPT's not really an app, how about Twitter, WhatsApp (definitely and app, clue is in the title), Insta, FB, TikTok, Telegram, Spotify, Uber, etc, etc.... ?
    Yes, I know what you mean

    But I heard it described that way in a TV show the other day, and also I read it in an article


    I guess that you have to accept that:

    1. ChatGPT is an "app" of sorts

    and

    2. That your metric for success is speed of acquiring users

    In that sense the statement is true. ChatGPT came out on November 30 2022 and now, at the end of March 2023, exactly four months later, it has at least 100 million users, and the company that owns it is valued at tens of billions

    Nothing like it has been seen before
    Yeah, I was wrong, it is an app of course.
This discussion has been closed.