Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
On immigration, can I just take two minutes to voice this unpopular and seldom said opinion?
If someone has the balls and the drive to find their way out of a country in an unstable region, and run the gauntlet of people smugglers, get across the channel in weather P&O wouldn’t dream of sailing in, all whilst not knowing if they will ever see their family again, all for a dream of living in the U.K.; I want them here.
That’s exactly who we need. I’d want to actively compete for them except we don’t need to - they choose us even though we are horrible to them.
Ah yes just want we want, people who associate with criminals and are happy to break the law....who could want anyone better?
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Given a lot of them 40 odd percent are albanian are gangsters being brought in for country lines and a good percentage of the others are victims of people traffickers then yes sorry fuck off they aren't an advantage to the country they are a pustulent sore that needs lancing
Try some criticial thinking one day, you might enjoy it. You have cause and effect the wrong way around. Precisely because they are driven into the hands of criminals, they are at risk of incurring a “debt” and being drawn in. Be more open and we get them first.
You might wish to try a little of that critical thinking yourself. Intemperate though Pagan's language is, the point he raises is a valid one. You need to ask yourself why someone from Albania would want to pay £500 to a trafficker to undertake a risky sea voyage in a leaky dinghy, when there are cheap flights from Tirana to whichever UK airport takes their fancy. The only logical answer I can think of is that they do not wish their passport to be checked and their image be registered on a database - but I am open to alternative explanations.
Because we wouldn’t let them in to stay…. sort of my point.
Indeed we wouldn't, legally, but once here, they could abscond/overstay, or claim asylum, just as those who arrive by boat do.
On immigration, can I just take two minutes to voice this unpopular and seldom said opinion?
If someone has the balls and the drive to find their way out of a country in an unstable region, and run the gauntlet of people smugglers, get across the channel in weather P&O wouldn’t dream of sailing in, all whilst not knowing if they will ever see their family again, all for a dream of living in the U.K.; I want them here.
That’s exactly who we need. I’d want to actively compete for them except we don’t need to - they choose us even though we are horrible to them.
Ah yes just want we want, people who associate with criminals and are happy to break the law....who could want anyone better?
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Given a lot of them 40 odd percent are albanian are gangsters being brought in for country lines and a good percentage of the others are victims of people traffickers then yes sorry fuck off they aren't an advantage to the country they are a pustulent sore that needs lancing
Try some criticial thinking one day, you might enjoy it. You have cause and effect the wrong way around. Precisely because they are driven into the hands of criminals, they are at risk of incurring a “debt” and being drawn in. Be more open and we get them first.
You might wish to try a little of that critical thinking yourself. Intemperate though Pagan's language is, the point he raises is a valid one. You need to ask yourself why someone from Albania would want to pay £500 to a trafficker to undertake a risky sea voyage in a leaky dinghy, when there are cheap flights from Tirana to whichever UK airport takes their fancy. The only logical answer I can think of is that they do not wish their passport to be checked and their image be registered on a database - but I am open to alternative explanations.
Because we wouldn’t let them in to stay…. sort of my point.
So we wouldn't let them stay because they aren't refugees? That is a reason to defend them for crossing in boats.....really do fuck off
On immigration, can I just take two minutes to voice this unpopular and seldom said opinion?
If someone has the balls and the drive to find their way out of a country in an unstable region, and run the gauntlet of people smugglers, get across the channel in weather P&O wouldn’t dream of sailing in, all whilst not knowing if they will ever see their family again, all for a dream of living in the U.K.; I want them here.
That’s exactly who we need. I’d want to actively compete for them except we don’t need to - they choose us even though we are horrible to them.
Ah yes just want we want, people who associate with criminals and are happy to break the law....who could want anyone better?
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Given a lot of them 40 odd percent are albanian are gangsters being brought in for country lines and a good percentage of the others are victims of people traffickers then yes sorry fuck off they aren't an advantage to the country they are a pustulent sore that needs lancing
Try some criticial thinking one day, you might enjoy it. You have cause and effect the wrong way around. Precisely because they are driven into the hands of criminals, they are at risk of incurring a “debt” and being drawn in. Be more open and we get them first.
You might wish to try a little of that critical thinking yourself. Intemperate though Pagan's language is, the point he raises is a valid one. You need to ask yourself why someone from Albania would want to pay £500 to a trafficker to undertake a risky sea voyage in a leaky dinghy, when there are cheap flights from Tirana to whichever UK airport takes their fancy. The only logical answer I can think of is that they do not wish their passport to be checked and their image be registered on a database - but I am open to alternative explanations.
Simple. You cannot even get on a flight from Tirana to the UK if you do not have a valid visa. The airlines are held responsible for anyone they allow on their flights who do not have a valid visa/permit to enter the UK. No visa, no flight.
A holiday visa would be perfectly adequate to get into the country.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
You must be very pessimistic about our ability to close the gap in GDP per capita that has opened with the rest of the Anglosphere since 2007.
On immigration, can I just take two minutes to voice this unpopular and seldom said opinion?
If someone has the balls and the drive to find their way out of a country in an unstable region, and run the gauntlet of people smugglers, get across the channel in weather P&O wouldn’t dream of sailing in, all whilst not knowing if they will ever see their family again, all for a dream of living in the U.K.; I want them here.
That’s exactly who we need. I’d want to actively compete for them except we don’t need to - they choose us even though we are horrible to them.
Ah yes just want we want, people who associate with criminals and are happy to break the law....who could want anyone better?
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Given a lot of them 40 odd percent are albanian are gangsters being brought in for country lines and a good percentage of the others are victims of people traffickers then yes sorry fuck off they aren't an advantage to the country they are a pustulent sore that needs lancing
Try some criticial thinking one day, you might enjoy it. You have cause and effect the wrong way around. Precisely because they are driven into the hands of criminals, they are at risk of incurring a “debt” and being drawn in. Be more open and we get them first.
You might wish to try a little of that critical thinking yourself. Intemperate though Pagan's language is, the point he raises is a valid one. You need to ask yourself why someone from Albania would want to pay £500 to a trafficker to undertake a risky sea voyage in a leaky dinghy, when there are cheap flights from Tirana to whichever UK airport takes their fancy. The only logical answer I can think of is that they do not wish their passport to be checked and their image be registered on a database - but I am open to alternative explanations.
Because we wouldn’t let them in to stay…. sort of my point.
So we wouldn't let them stay because they aren't refugees? That is a reason to defend them for crossing in boats.....really do fuck off
Did you not read anything I wrote? My whole point is I want economic migrants. So should we all.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
On immigration, can I just take two minutes to voice this unpopular and seldom said opinion?
If someone has the balls and the drive to find their way out of a country in an unstable region, and run the gauntlet of people smugglers, get across the channel in weather P&O wouldn’t dream of sailing in, all whilst not knowing if they will ever see their family again, all for a dream of living in the U.K.; I want them here.
That’s exactly who we need. I’d want to actively compete for them except we don’t need to - they choose us even though we are horrible to them.
Ah yes just want we want, people who associate with criminals and are happy to break the law....who could want anyone better?
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Given a lot of them 40 odd percent are albanian are gangsters being brought in for country lines and a good percentage of the others are victims of people traffickers then yes sorry fuck off they aren't an advantage to the country they are a pustulent sore that needs lancing
Try some criticial thinking one day, you might enjoy it. You have cause and effect the wrong way around. Precisely because they are driven into the hands of criminals, they are at risk of incurring a “debt” and being drawn in. Be more open and we get them first.
You might wish to try a little of that critical thinking yourself. Intemperate though Pagan's language is, the point he raises is a valid one. You need to ask yourself why someone from Albania would want to pay £500 to a trafficker to undertake a risky sea voyage in a leaky dinghy, when there are cheap flights from Tirana to whichever UK airport takes their fancy. The only logical answer I can think of is that they do not wish their passport to be checked and their image be registered on a database - but I am open to alternative explanations.
Because we wouldn’t let them in to stay…. sort of my point.
Indeed we wouldn't, legally, but once here, they could abscond/overstay, or claim asylum, just as those who arrive by boat do.
How, pray tell, would they board the aircraft without a valid visa?
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
And yet neither you nor anyone else has those answers. And until we do have we have to maintain the levels of immigration or the whole system falls apart. A Ponzi scheme is only a valid argument if you think this was an unnecessary way to deal with a non existent problem. The problem is real and currently immigration is the only reasonable way we have to deal with it. Until you have an alternative, your criticism is pointless and illogical.
On immigration, can I just take two minutes to voice this unpopular and seldom said opinion?
If someone has the balls and the drive to find their way out of a country in an unstable region, and run the gauntlet of people smugglers, get across the channel in weather P&O wouldn’t dream of sailing in, all whilst not knowing if they will ever see their family again, all for a dream of living in the U.K.; I want them here.
That’s exactly who we need. I’d want to actively compete for them except we don’t need to - they choose us even though we are horrible to them.
Ah yes just want we want, people who associate with criminals and are happy to break the law....who could want anyone better?
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Given a lot of them 40 odd percent are albanian are gangsters being brought in for country lines and a good percentage of the others are victims of people traffickers then yes sorry fuck off they aren't an advantage to the country they are a pustulent sore that needs lancing
Try some criticial thinking one day, you might enjoy it. You have cause and effect the wrong way around. Precisely because they are driven into the hands of criminals, they are at risk of incurring a “debt” and being drawn in. Be more open and we get them first.
You might wish to try a little of that critical thinking yourself. Intemperate though Pagan's language is, the point he raises is a valid one. You need to ask yourself why someone from Albania would want to pay £500 to a trafficker to undertake a risky sea voyage in a leaky dinghy, when there are cheap flights from Tirana to whichever UK airport takes their fancy. The only logical answer I can think of is that they do not wish their passport to be checked and their image be registered on a database - but I am open to alternative explanations.
Because we wouldn’t let them in to stay…. sort of my point.
So we wouldn't let them stay because they aren't refugees? That is a reason to defend them for crossing in boats.....really do fuck off
Did you not read anything I wrote? My whole point is I want economic migrants. So should we all.
A valid position, but presumably not those who want to benefit economically by committing crimes.
Yesterday I read some posts on here that suggested the harsher people fleeing in dingys (sic) were treated the better Sunaks figures. It was written by someone who is apparently well versed in the Red Wall and Tory thinking. It seemed to be written approvingly though that's not important. But what a disgusting indictment of this country and the voters they attract.
I missed that comment, but I think its utterly preposterous and wrong and whoever said that knows absolutely nothing about the Red Wall.
Certain commentators on this site, especially some who live in the South in deepest blue territory, seem to project their own prejudices onto the North/Red Wall.
As someone who lives up here may I reject them all. There are a small minority of racists in the North, like there are everywhere else, but that is not what the Red Wall is and its not the North. Anyone who is saying that is not well versed whatsoever in the Red Wall and has almost certainly never lived here, never campaigned here, and never knocked up voters here.
FPT. Sorry I wasn't able to reply. I like your sentiments but the proof of the pudding is in the Prime Minister's appointment of Suella Braverman. Her statements about the people in dinghies have been pretty disgusting yet considered to be just what the Red Wallers want to hear to bring them back on side. If they were unattractive to that vital voting block I'm sure Sunak would have removed her.
Or Sunak recognises that the Red Wall could be lost either way and Suella is there to appeal to more traditionally blue seats to keep them happy and in the blue column.
The kind of seats from which all these comments projecting onto the Red Wall their own prejudices seem to be coming from anyway.
I can't think of a single commentator on this site from a Red Wall seat who is expressing those views or endorsing Suella Braverman. Those who seem to be doing so, seem to be in more typically safe blue seats than Red Wall seats.
Red Wall has become a flippant byline for people's own prejudices rather than thinking seriously about what people here actually want.
Hear hear, as someone who lives in a red wall seat I can only echo this. I would also go as far to say I have never heard anyone express a view on it. Issues like pay, fuel bills, availability of groceries for sure but not boat people.
People like Rogerdamus just have a passionate dislike for anything red wall blaming the red wall for Brexit. But your debating what people in the Red Wall think with a guy who spends half his life in France. He won't know, as you say it is people projecting.
The Red Wall is not a place, it's a type of voter. Specifically those who voted Tory for the 1st time in 2019 through genuine enthusiasm for Boris and his Brexit. These people delivered the big Con win and have been identified by both parties as key to the next election too. They will typically be Hard Leavers, quite nationalistic, anti-empathetic to migrants and refugees. The rhetoric designed to appeal to them can therefore cause the nose to wrinkle but we may as well get used to it, at least for the next 18 months.
Is it possible for politicians to do anything to stop the boats without causing the nose to wrinkle?
My understanding is that the vast majority of those crossing the channel illegally are not - in any sense of the word we would understand - refugees. And my view is that their arrival is not really a positive for the country - nor indeed (though this is less of my business) for their country of origin (i.e. Albania etc.). So I'd quite like something done which prevents their arrival. The Rwanda policy might disappoint many, but it does at least have the merit of being any policy at all, which is a welcome contrast to the last 30 years of immigration policy. For the record, I'm happy to welcome the likes of the Ukrainians, who are clearly genuine refugees.
You might take a different view on the desirability of the arrival of illegal immigrants, but I don't think my view is extreme or in any way 'wrong' to hold. Wrinkling your nose in distaste at the view that the crossings ought to be prevented is not particularly helpful.
A policy of dealing with the current backlog and promptly processing applications, and sending back those who do not have a valid claim, seems acceptable to everyone… except theConservative Party.
Except - practical experience has shown us that that's even less plausible than the Rwanda option. There needs to be something to deter people coming in the first place. Without that, the whole 3rd world beats a path to our door.
This sounds like you're cagily viewing the billions of people in less developed countries as some gigantic mono-mass of humanity so purely driven by monetary concerns that they'd all migrate thousands of miles to Manchester given half the chance. I doubt this is the case myself. I think most people prefer to make a life in their own country.
To be clear, I do, a bit, and I don't mean to do so pejoratively. If I lived in Chad or Eritrea or Somalia I'd migrate thousands of miles to Manchester given half the chance. Mind you, if I lived in Coventry or Tunbridge Wells or Stoke I'd migrate the dozens of miles to Manchester given half the chance. 'Cos Manchester's boss. Nice one, our kid.
Top place obviously. About time I visited it again. It's been too long. But I do think you're underestimating how similar people all over the world are. Just as we are attached to our patch so are they. I don't buy this "4 billion are chomping at the bit to come here and they will if we let our guard down" type rhetoric. I think it's mainly a strawman debating technique of anti-immigrationers.
From being in Peru, having Peruvian relatives etc. you’d get 20%+ who would board a plane tomorrow, if they thought they could stay and get a job.
I’m talking “run for the plane without a second thought”.
I will have to take your word for this. Obviously we can't accept 7m from Peru.
The problem that some people have is that they see economic migrant as a pejorative label.
Everyone you meet in Peru sees getting to a First World country as a first step to getting Rich. You have to work, but there are the examples of those who've built home in Peru after making it big overseas. Houses with £1000 stainless steel taps in the kitchen and all the Mayfair style stuff.
The same is true of many other countries.
If you stay - the opportunities are limited. It may be hard for you to believe, but countries like Peru have much less opportunity for a someone at the bottom to rise, than say, the UK.
I can certainly believe that, yes. Also that many would migrate to the West if they could. But in general they also have strong ties to their own country, don't they. Same elsewhere. That literally billions of people are ready to up-sticks and cross the globe to come and live here is an exaggeration imo.
There are literally billions of people who would move across the world for a better life.
Minimum wage in the UK is 5 times higher than the global median salary, putting you in the top 8%, so there’s over seven billion people poorer than you.
I know how stupidly rich we in the UK are compared to most of humanity. But does this mean 'billions' would move here regardless of their ties to home and all the other non-financial factors? It's not an easy thing to quantify but I truly doubt it.
As an example, 10% of the GDP of the Philippines is money remitted by Filipinos working abroad, 2m people, 2% of the population.
If only 2% of the seven billion decide to move around, that’s 140m people.
It's a big issue and only going to get bigger with the global inequalities we have and with climate change. However I've been responding to "the whole of the 3rd world would beat a path to our door if they could". This is hyperbole imo, feeds a seize mentality, is used to justify policies and rhetoric that I find not justifiable at all.
After all, it is hard to conceive a world where people poured out of Europe, to all the continents of the world, displacing or overwhelming local cultures in pursuit of economic advantage, travelling by boats that the indigenous people couldn't stop.
Just imagine what the world would have been like if that had happened.
Exactly. Mass immigration is seldom good news for the host population. Britain is a nation of immigrants. But the arrival of the Anglo Saxons didn't work out brilliantly for the Britons. And the arrival of the Vikings didn't work out brilliantly for the Anglo Saxons.
I think from this we can glean you are against the mass immigration and diversity of the last 50 years and you think Britain was better in the 1950s when it was nearly all white.
It's the combination of North American, Continental European and Afro-Asian influences since the late 1950's that have made Britain more interesting.
On that subject, this map of second languages according to the census is quite fascinating. I am not surprised at it being Gujerati around Leicester, but it seems that nearly exclusive to my Manor.
Must be a fascinating story behind the Filipino enclave in Lancashire.
The Yiddish enclave in Essex must have a hell of a story too
Got rich, moved out of London to somewhere big houses are cheap(er)?
Basically, yes, although Canvey is getting a bit more expensive than it was.
On immigration, can I just take two minutes to voice this unpopular and seldom said opinion?
If someone has the balls and the drive to find their way out of a country in an unstable region, and run the gauntlet of people smugglers, get across the channel in weather P&O wouldn’t dream of sailing in, all whilst not knowing if they will ever see their family again, all for a dream of living in the U.K.; I want them here.
That’s exactly who we need. I’d want to actively compete for them except we don’t need to - they choose us even though we are horrible to them.
Ah yes just want we want, people who associate with criminals and are happy to break the law....who could want anyone better?
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Given a lot of them 40 odd percent are albanian are gangsters being brought in for country lines and a good percentage of the others are victims of people traffickers then yes sorry fuck off they aren't an advantage to the country they are a pustulent sore that needs lancing
Try some criticial thinking one day, you might enjoy it. You have cause and effect the wrong way around. Precisely because they are driven into the hands of criminals, they are at risk of incurring a “debt” and being drawn in. Be more open and we get them first.
You might wish to try a little of that critical thinking yourself. Intemperate though Pagan's language is, the point he raises is a valid one. You need to ask yourself why someone from Albania would want to pay £500 to a trafficker to undertake a risky sea voyage in a leaky dinghy, when there are cheap flights from Tirana to whichever UK airport takes their fancy. The only logical answer I can think of is that they do not wish their passport to be checked and their image be registered on a database - but I am open to alternative explanations.
Because we wouldn’t let them in to stay…. sort of my point.
So we wouldn't let them stay because they aren't refugees? That is a reason to defend them for crossing in boats.....really do fuck off
Did you not read anything I wrote? My whole point is I want economic migrants. So should we all.
You select economic migrants based on their skills and qualifications, not on their ability to arrive irregularly.
On immigration, can I just take two minutes to voice this unpopular and seldom said opinion?
If someone has the balls and the drive to find their way out of a country in an unstable region, and run the gauntlet of people smugglers, get across the channel in weather P&O wouldn’t dream of sailing in, all whilst not knowing if they will ever see their family again, all for a dream of living in the U.K.; I want them here.
That’s exactly who we need. I’d want to actively compete for them except we don’t need to - they choose us even though we are horrible to them.
Ah yes just want we want, people who associate with criminals and are happy to break the law....who could want anyone better?
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Given a lot of them 40 odd percent are albanian are gangsters being brought in for country lines and a good percentage of the others are victims of people traffickers then yes sorry fuck off they aren't an advantage to the country they are a pustulent sore that needs lancing
Try some criticial thinking one day, you might enjoy it. You have cause and effect the wrong way around. Precisely because they are driven into the hands of criminals, they are at risk of incurring a “debt” and being drawn in. Be more open and we get them first.
You might wish to try a little of that critical thinking yourself. Intemperate though Pagan's language is, the point he raises is a valid one. You need to ask yourself why someone from Albania would want to pay £500 to a trafficker to undertake a risky sea voyage in a leaky dinghy, when there are cheap flights from Tirana to whichever UK airport takes their fancy. The only logical answer I can think of is that they do not wish their passport to be checked and their image be registered on a database - but I am open to alternative explanations.
Because we wouldn’t let them in to stay…. sort of my point.
So we wouldn't let them stay because they aren't refugees? That is a reason to defend them for crossing in boats.....really do fuck off
Did you not read anything I wrote? My whole point is I want economic migrants. So should we all.
Did you not read mine, I am happy with economic migrants if they are net contributors....economic migrants that take more than they give are less use than you
On immigration, can I just take two minutes to voice this unpopular and seldom said opinion?
If someone has the balls and the drive to find their way out of a country in an unstable region, and run the gauntlet of people smugglers, get across the channel in weather P&O wouldn’t dream of sailing in, all whilst not knowing if they will ever see their family again, all for a dream of living in the U.K.; I want them here.
That’s exactly who we need. I’d want to actively compete for them except we don’t need to - they choose us even though we are horrible to them.
Ah yes just want we want, people who associate with criminals and are happy to break the law....who could want anyone better?
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Given a lot of them 40 odd percent are albanian are gangsters being brought in for country lines and a good percentage of the others are victims of people traffickers then yes sorry fuck off they aren't an advantage to the country they are a pustulent sore that needs lancing
Try some criticial thinking one day, you might enjoy it. You have cause and effect the wrong way around. Precisely because they are driven into the hands of criminals, they are at risk of incurring a “debt” and being drawn in. Be more open and we get them first.
You might wish to try a little of that critical thinking yourself. Intemperate though Pagan's language is, the point he raises is a valid one. You need to ask yourself why someone from Albania would want to pay £500 to a trafficker to undertake a risky sea voyage in a leaky dinghy, when there are cheap flights from Tirana to whichever UK airport takes their fancy. The only logical answer I can think of is that they do not wish their passport to be checked and their image be registered on a database - but I am open to alternative explanations.
Because we wouldn’t let them in to stay…. sort of my point.
Indeed we wouldn't, legally, but once here, they could abscond/overstay, or claim asylum, just as those who arrive by boat do.
How, pray tell, would they board the aircraft without a valid visa?
They would get a short stay visa, like the thousands of others who make the flight every week.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
A question for the great and good here. (Hopefully this hasn't already been discussed)
IDS has just been on BBC news discussing Partygate and made an interesting claim that I have not heard before.
He said that Erskine May says that an MP is guilty if they 'knowingly' mislead Parliament but that the Standards Committee have widened the remit and said that misleading in itself is enough to find Johnson guilty, whether it was knowingly or unknowingly.
So a few questions arise.
- is IDS right that Erskine May says it specifically has to be knowingly? - if so have the committee widened the brief (without allowing Parliament to debate a rule change)? - Does it matter? Is Erskine May guidance or rules? - if the committee do find him guilty of misleading the House but decide it was not intentional, should they still be able to punish him?
Personally I would like them to throw the book at him as I think he did it all knowingly but I would be uncomfortable if they have bent the rules to do that.
Extended knowingly to recklessly to get over you can't prove what is in someones mind aiui.
But should not those changes have been discussed and passed by Parliament itself? Or does EM not work that way?
If enough MPs disagree with the process then parliament has a vote on the outcome? Its not perfect but nor is relying on honour in an age where it does not exist.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
And yet neither you nor anyone else has those answers. And until we do have we have to maintain the levels of immigration or the whole system falls apart. A Ponzi scheme is only a valid argument if you think this was an unnecessary way to deal with a non existent problem. The problem is real and currently immigration is the only reasonable way we have to deal with it. Until you have an alternative, your criticism is pointless and illogical.
Do you disagree immigration is a ponzi scheme? first question Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse? second question
So why do you have an issue with me saying now is when we need to think how do we deal with a falling population so when the ponzi collapses we have an answer?
On immigration, can I just take two minutes to voice this unpopular and seldom said opinion?
If someone has the balls and the drive to find their way out of a country in an unstable region, and run the gauntlet of people smugglers, get across the channel in weather P&O wouldn’t dream of sailing in, all whilst not knowing if they will ever see their family again, all for a dream of living in the U.K.; I want them here.
That’s exactly who we need. I’d want to actively compete for them except we don’t need to - they choose us even though we are horrible to them.
Ah yes just want we want, people who associate with criminals and are happy to break the law....who could want anyone better?
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Given a lot of them 40 odd percent are albanian are gangsters being brought in for country lines and a good percentage of the others are victims of people traffickers then yes sorry fuck off they aren't an advantage to the country they are a pustulent sore that needs lancing
Try some criticial thinking one day, you might enjoy it. You have cause and effect the wrong way around. Precisely because they are driven into the hands of criminals, they are at risk of incurring a “debt” and being drawn in. Be more open and we get them first.
You might wish to try a little of that critical thinking yourself. Intemperate though Pagan's language is, the point he raises is a valid one. You need to ask yourself why someone from Albania would want to pay £500 to a trafficker to undertake a risky sea voyage in a leaky dinghy, when there are cheap flights from Tirana to whichever UK airport takes their fancy. The only logical answer I can think of is that they do not wish their passport to be checked and their image be registered on a database - but I am open to alternative explanations.
Because we wouldn’t let them in to stay…. sort of my point.
So we wouldn't let them stay because they aren't refugees? That is a reason to defend them for crossing in boats.....really do fuck off
Did you not read anything I wrote? My whole point is I want economic migrants. So should we all.
A valid position, but presumably not those who want to benefit economically by committing crimes.
Trivial numbers, I think. Unless you want to call being an illegal immigrant being a criminal, or include those pressed into crime once here by the gangs that brought them and to whom they now owe something.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
And yet neither you nor anyone else has those answers. And until we do have we have to maintain the levels of immigration or the whole system falls apart. A Ponzi scheme is only a valid argument if you think this was an unnecessary way to deal with a non existent problem. The problem is real and currently immigration is the only reasonable way we have to deal with it. Until you have an alternative, your criticism is pointless and illogical.
Do you disagree immigration is a ponzi scheme? first question Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse? second question
So why do you have an issue with me saying now is when we need to think how do we deal with a falling population so when the ponzi collapses we have an answer?
Thanks to @NickyBreakspear for his polling analysis - my only question is whether any weighting is given to sample size. Only Savanta, YouGov and Redfield & Wilton sample more than 2,000 people - some of the pollsters have to my mind very small samples which may or may not explain the volatility.
We're also seeing the return of the "shy Tory" syndrome. Apparently, and you wouldn't think it on here, some people are embarrassed to admit they support the Conservatives so the polls are under-estimating the Conservatives some of whom hide behind Don't Know or my even claim to be Labour supporters.
Okay - the next thing is "well, people may say they're voting Labour but in the privacy of the polling booth the pencil will find its way to the Conservative candidate".
This is again part of the "1992 not 1997" narrative which is being spun by some of the Conservative supporters.
To be fair, Omnisis isn't a bad poll and especially I'd argue looking at the supplementaries where Sunak's quiet managerialism is seeing some benefits. I'd also argue the failure of the sky to cave in as some feared over winter (though I think it's been a difficult time for many people) and the natural optimism spring brings are probably also factors.
I'm sure Starmer and Labour have recognised this and their response to it is understandably more on the overall record of the Government and perhaps they need to remind people how close Sunk once was to Johnson and how he (Sunak) was at the very centre of the Government during the pandemic.
There isn't that much difference in accuracy between a sample of 500 and 2,000.
I'm not sure. Given an electorate of 48 million you're looking at a sample of 1067 to provide 95% confidence within a 3% Margin of Error. If you sample 2,400 your margin of error falls to 2%.
The bigger the sample, the smaller the MoE which helps with analysis -
YouGov says this on MoE:
All polls are subject to a wide range of potential sources of error. On the basis of the historical record of the polls at recent general elections, there is a 9 in 10 chance that the true value of a party’s support lies within 4 points of the estimates provided by this poll, and a 2 in 3 chance that they lie within 2 points.
Redfield & Wilton says:
Margin of Error: All results are subject to a margin of error. By consequence, not all differences are statistically significant, especially among subsamples. In this 2,000 sample poll, if 50.0% of respondents gave a particular answer to a question––the worst-case scenario from the perspective of margin of error––it is 95.0% certain that the true value falls within a 2.19% range from the sample result. Subsample results from crosstabs are subject to a higher margin of error due to their lower sample sizes. Conclusions drawn from small subsamples should be treated with caution. We particularly emphasise caution when reporting on any subsample figures where the base is below 100 respondents
On immigration, can I just take two minutes to voice this unpopular and seldom said opinion?
If someone has the balls and the drive to find their way out of a country in an unstable region, and run the gauntlet of people smugglers, get across the channel in weather P&O wouldn’t dream of sailing in, all whilst not knowing if they will ever see their family again, all for a dream of living in the U.K.; I want them here.
That’s exactly who we need. I’d want to actively compete for them except we don’t need to - they choose us even though we are horrible to them.
Ah yes just want we want, people who associate with criminals and are happy to break the law....who could want anyone better?
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Given a lot of them 40 odd percent are albanian are gangsters being brought in for country lines and a good percentage of the others are victims of people traffickers then yes sorry fuck off they aren't an advantage to the country they are a pustulent sore that needs lancing
Try some criticial thinking one day, you might enjoy it. You have cause and effect the wrong way around. Precisely because they are driven into the hands of criminals, they are at risk of incurring a “debt” and being drawn in. Be more open and we get them first.
You might wish to try a little of that critical thinking yourself. Intemperate though Pagan's language is, the point he raises is a valid one. You need to ask yourself why someone from Albania would want to pay £500 to a trafficker to undertake a risky sea voyage in a leaky dinghy, when there are cheap flights from Tirana to whichever UK airport takes their fancy. The only logical answer I can think of is that they do not wish their passport to be checked and their image be registered on a database - but I am open to alternative explanations.
Because we wouldn’t let them in to stay…. sort of my point.
So we wouldn't let them stay because they aren't refugees? That is a reason to defend them for crossing in boats.....really do fuck off
Did you not read anything I wrote? My whole point is I want economic migrants. So should we all.
You select economic migrants based on their skills and qualifications, not on their ability to arrive irregularly.
You might want to be picky, if we didn’t have a low skilled worker shortage. Even then I’d believe, over all, in a complete open door policy and economic fundamentals.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
Do you think the population can or should go on increasing forever?
Since the King is the Head of the Church of England, and the coronation is a religious service held in Westminster Abbey overseen by the Archbishop of Canterbury, being surprised that it's a Christian ceremony is about as much of a shock to me as learning the true meaning of Christmas.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
And yet neither you nor anyone else has those answers. And until we do have we have to maintain the levels of immigration or the whole system falls apart. A Ponzi scheme is only a valid argument if you think this was an unnecessary way to deal with a non existent problem. The problem is real and currently immigration is the only reasonable way we have to deal with it. Until you have an alternative, your criticism is pointless and illogical.
Do you disagree immigration is a ponzi scheme? first question Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse?
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
And when the millions of immigrants run out what the fuck then because it is going to happen even africa which is still above replacement rate the birth rate is falling....so you run out of immigrants what you going to do.....I advocate planning for it now you are all nah plenty of immigrants
On immigration, can I just take two minutes to voice this unpopular and seldom said opinion?
If someone has the balls and the drive to find their way out of a country in an unstable region, and run the gauntlet of people smugglers, get across the channel in weather P&O wouldn’t dream of sailing in, all whilst not knowing if they will ever see their family again, all for a dream of living in the U.K.; I want them here.
That’s exactly who we need. I’d want to actively compete for them except we don’t need to - they choose us even though we are horrible to them.
Ah yes just want we want, people who associate with criminals and are happy to break the law....who could want anyone better?
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Given a lot of them 40 odd percent are albanian are gangsters being brought in for country lines and a good percentage of the others are victims of people traffickers then yes sorry fuck off they aren't an advantage to the country they are a pustulent sore that needs lancing
Try some criticial thinking one day, you might enjoy it. You have cause and effect the wrong way around. Precisely because they are driven into the hands of criminals, they are at risk of incurring a “debt” and being drawn in. Be more open and we get them first.
You might wish to try a little of that critical thinking yourself. Intemperate though Pagan's language is, the point he raises is a valid one. You need to ask yourself why someone from Albania would want to pay £500 to a trafficker to undertake a risky sea voyage in a leaky dinghy, when there are cheap flights from Tirana to whichever UK airport takes their fancy. The only logical answer I can think of is that they do not wish their passport to be checked and their image be registered on a database - but I am open to alternative explanations.
Because we wouldn’t let them in to stay…. sort of my point.
So we wouldn't let them stay because they aren't refugees? That is a reason to defend them for crossing in boats.....really do fuck off
Did you not read anything I wrote? My whole point is I want economic migrants. So should we all.
A valid position, but presumably not those who want to benefit economically by committing crimes.
Trivial numbers, I think. Unless you want to call being an illegal immigrant being a criminal, or include those pressed into crime once here by the gangs that brought them and to whom they now owe something.
You have no idea about the numbers. And why would we not include the latter group, are their crimes somehow not crimes?
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
The answer to living with a falling population is high taxes on those still working but you are not happy with that either. Low taxes, falling population and very low immigration is a fantasy mix.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
And yet neither you nor anyone else has those answers. And until we do have we have to maintain the levels of immigration or the whole system falls apart. A Ponzi scheme is only a valid argument if you think this was an unnecessary way to deal with a non existent problem. The problem is real and currently immigration is the only reasonable way we have to deal with it. Until you have an alternative, your criticism is pointless and illogical.
Do you disagree immigration is a ponzi scheme? first question Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse?
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
And yet neither you nor anyone else has those answers. And until we do have we have to maintain the levels of immigration or the whole system falls apart. A Ponzi scheme is only a valid argument if you think this was an unnecessary way to deal with a non existent problem. The problem is real and currently immigration is the only reasonable way we have to deal with it. Until you have an alternative, your criticism is pointless and illogical.
Do you disagree immigration is a ponzi scheme? first question Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse? second question
So why do you have an issue with me saying now is when we need to think how do we deal with a falling population so when the ponzi collapses we have an answer?
Yes I disagree it is a Ponzi scheme.
So your second question is invalid.
Well only invalid as in the answer is yes all ponzi schemes collapse. Why then do you not think the answer is to start working out how we deal with a falling population is now rather than when we have no choice
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
The answer to living with a falling population is high taxes on those still working but you are not happy with that either. Low taxes, falling population and very low immigration is a fantasy mix.
There is also improved productivity, including increased automation.
On immigration, can I just take two minutes to voice this unpopular and seldom said opinion?
If someone has the balls and the drive to find their way out of a country in an unstable region, and run the gauntlet of people smugglers, get across the channel in weather P&O wouldn’t dream of sailing in, all whilst not knowing if they will ever see their family again, all for a dream of living in the U.K.; I want them here.
That’s exactly who we need. I’d want to actively compete for them except we don’t need to - they choose us even though we are horrible to them.
Ah yes just want we want, people who associate with criminals and are happy to break the law....who could want anyone better?
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Given a lot of them 40 odd percent are albanian are gangsters being brought in for country lines and a good percentage of the others are victims of people traffickers then yes sorry fuck off they aren't an advantage to the country they are a pustulent sore that needs lancing
Try some criticial thinking one day, you might enjoy it. You have cause and effect the wrong way around. Precisely because they are driven into the hands of criminals, they are at risk of incurring a “debt” and being drawn in. Be more open and we get them first.
You might wish to try a little of that critical thinking yourself. Intemperate though Pagan's language is, the point he raises is a valid one. You need to ask yourself why someone from Albania would want to pay £500 to a trafficker to undertake a risky sea voyage in a leaky dinghy, when there are cheap flights from Tirana to whichever UK airport takes their fancy. The only logical answer I can think of is that they do not wish their passport to be checked and their image be registered on a database - but I am open to alternative explanations.
Because we wouldn’t let them in to stay…. sort of my point.
So we wouldn't let them stay because they aren't refugees? That is a reason to defend them for crossing in boats.....really do fuck off
Did you not read anything I wrote? My whole point is I want economic migrants. So should we all.
A valid position, but presumably not those who want to benefit economically by committing crimes.
Trivial numbers, I think. Unless you want to call being an illegal immigrant being a criminal, or include those pressed into crime once here by the gangs that brought them and to whom they now owe something.
You have no idea about the numbers. And why would we not include the latter group, are their crimes somehow not crimes?
Because that crime would not exist if you decide to let them in….
On immigration, can I just take two minutes to voice this unpopular and seldom said opinion?
If someone has the balls and the drive to find their way out of a country in an unstable region, and run the gauntlet of people smugglers, get across the channel in weather P&O wouldn’t dream of sailing in, all whilst not knowing if they will ever see their family again, all for a dream of living in the U.K.; I want them here.
That’s exactly who we need. I’d want to actively compete for them except we don’t need to - they choose us even though we are horrible to them.
Ah yes just want we want, people who associate with criminals and are happy to break the law....who could want anyone better?
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Given a lot of them 40 odd percent are albanian are gangsters being brought in for country lines and a good percentage of the others are victims of people traffickers then yes sorry fuck off they aren't an advantage to the country they are a pustulent sore that needs lancing
Try some criticial thinking one day, you might enjoy it. You have cause and effect the wrong way around. Precisely because they are driven into the hands of criminals, they are at risk of incurring a “debt” and being drawn in. Be more open and we get them first.
You might wish to try a little of that critical thinking yourself. Intemperate though Pagan's language is, the point he raises is a valid one. You need to ask yourself why someone from Albania would want to pay £500 to a trafficker to undertake a risky sea voyage in a leaky dinghy, when there are cheap flights from Tirana to whichever UK airport takes their fancy. The only logical answer I can think of is that they do not wish their passport to be checked and their image be registered on a database - but I am open to alternative explanations.
Because we wouldn’t let them in to stay…. sort of my point.
So we wouldn't let them stay because they aren't refugees? That is a reason to defend them for crossing in boats.....really do fuck off
Did you not read anything I wrote? My whole point is I want economic migrants. So should we all.
A valid position, but presumably not those who want to benefit economically by committing crimes.
Trivial numbers, I think. Unless you want to call being an illegal immigrant being a criminal, or include those pressed into crime once here by the gangs that brought them and to whom they now owe something.
You have no idea about the numbers. And why would we not include the latter group, are their crimes somehow not crimes?
Well I do, if they aren’t wanted and sought for extradition then they ain’t a criminal.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
And yet neither you nor anyone else has those answers. And until we do have we have to maintain the levels of immigration or the whole system falls apart. A Ponzi scheme is only a valid argument if you think this was an unnecessary way to deal with a non existent problem. The problem is real and currently immigration is the only reasonable way we have to deal with it. Until you have an alternative, your criticism is pointless and illogical.
Do you disagree immigration is a ponzi scheme? first question Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse?
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
And yet neither you nor anyone else has those answers. And until we do have we have to maintain the levels of immigration or the whole system falls apart. A Ponzi scheme is only a valid argument if you think this was an unnecessary way to deal with a non existent problem. The problem is real and currently immigration is the only reasonable way we have to deal with it. Until you have an alternative, your criticism is pointless and illogical.
Do you disagree immigration is a ponzi scheme? first question Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse? second question
So why do you have an issue with me saying now is when we need to think how do we deal with a falling population so when the ponzi collapses we have an answer?
Yes I disagree it is a Ponzi scheme.
So your second question is invalid.
Well only invalid because you dont think we will run out of immigrants...even africa is now falling on replacement rates so in the answer is yes all ponzi schemes collapse. Why then do you not think the answer is to start working out how we deal with a falling population is now rather than when we have no choice
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
The answer to living with a falling population is high taxes on those still working but you are not happy with that either. Low taxes, falling population and very low immigration is a fantasy mix.
Perhaps the answer is lower fucking government spending rather than high taxes
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
Do you think the population can or should go on increasing forever?
I hope and pray your concern about immigration isnt barely concealed racism.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
Do you think the population can or should go on increasing forever?
It is arguable that it should. They were already getting their knickers in a twist about the prospect of London swallowing up Hammersmith in the Tudor times. Something will always come along. By the time it gets too big, we can colonise the planets.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
Do you think the population can or should go on increasing forever?
It won't. World population is projected to peak in just a few decades, in 2064 in this model:
I will be a hundred that year, so unlikely to see it, but my son will. As population trends are accelerating faster than expected, it may be considerably sooner.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
Do you think the population can or should go on increasing forever?
It depends by how much. Britain's land mass is small, and its verdant landscape needs to be protected, but on the other hand areas of even cities like London are still low density , by European standards. Large rural and semi-urban areas of Scotland and Wales are even lower density, by the standards of some of our neighbours.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
And yet neither you nor anyone else has those answers. And until we do have we have to maintain the levels of immigration or the whole system falls apart. A Ponzi scheme is only a valid argument if you think this was an unnecessary way to deal with a non existent problem. The problem is real and currently immigration is the only reasonable way we have to deal with it. Until you have an alternative, your criticism is pointless and illogical.
Do you disagree immigration is a ponzi scheme? first question Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse?
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
And when the millions of immigrants run out what the fuck then because it is going to happen even africa which is still above replacement rate the birth rate is falling....so you run out of immigrants what you going to do.....I advocate planning for it now you are all nah plenty of immigrants
“Run out” of immigrants….? I mean we might have a problem in a thought experiment version 3023 when everyone lives here, but then really we’d have just recreated the empire. Win/win.
On immigration, can I just take two minutes to voice this unpopular and seldom said opinion?
If someone has the balls and the drive to find their way out of a country in an unstable region, and run the gauntlet of people smugglers, get across the channel in weather P&O wouldn’t dream of sailing in, all whilst not knowing if they will ever see their family again, all for a dream of living in the U.K.; I want them here.
That’s exactly who we need. I’d want to actively compete for them except we don’t need to - they choose us even though we are horrible to them.
Ah yes just want we want, people who associate with criminals and are happy to break the law....who could want anyone better?
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Given a lot of them 40 odd percent are albanian are gangsters being brought in for country lines and a good percentage of the others are victims of people traffickers then yes sorry fuck off they aren't an advantage to the country they are a pustulent sore that needs lancing
Try some criticial thinking one day, you might enjoy it. You have cause and effect the wrong way around. Precisely because they are driven into the hands of criminals, they are at risk of incurring a “debt” and being drawn in. Be more open and we get them first.
You might wish to try a little of that critical thinking yourself. Intemperate though Pagan's language is, the point he raises is a valid one. You need to ask yourself why someone from Albania would want to pay £500 to a trafficker to undertake a risky sea voyage in a leaky dinghy, when there are cheap flights from Tirana to whichever UK airport takes their fancy. The only logical answer I can think of is that they do not wish their passport to be checked and their image be registered on a database - but I am open to alternative explanations.
Because we wouldn’t let them in to stay…. sort of my point.
So we wouldn't let them stay because they aren't refugees? That is a reason to defend them for crossing in boats.....really do fuck off
Did you not read anything I wrote? My whole point is I want economic migrants. So should we all.
A valid position, but presumably not those who want to benefit economically by committing crimes.
Trivial numbers, I think. Unless you want to call being an illegal immigrant being a criminal, or include those pressed into crime once here by the gangs that brought them and to whom they now owe something.
You have no idea about the numbers. And why would we not include the latter group, are their crimes somehow not crimes?
Well I do, if they aren’t wanted and sought for extradition then they ain’t a criminal.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
And yet neither you nor anyone else has those answers. And until we do have we have to maintain the levels of immigration or the whole system falls apart. A Ponzi scheme is only a valid argument if you think this was an unnecessary way to deal with a non existent problem. The problem is real and currently immigration is the only reasonable way we have to deal with it. Until you have an alternative, your criticism is pointless and illogical.
Do you disagree immigration is a ponzi scheme? first question Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse?
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
And yet neither you nor anyone else has those answers. And until we do have we have to maintain the levels of immigration or the whole system falls apart. A Ponzi scheme is only a valid argument if you think this was an unnecessary way to deal with a non existent problem. The problem is real and currently immigration is the only reasonable way we have to deal with it. Until you have an alternative, your criticism is pointless and illogical.
Do you disagree immigration is a ponzi scheme? first question Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse?
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
And when the millions of immigrants run out what the fuck then because it is going to happen even africa which is still above replacement rate the birth rate is falling....so you run out of immigrants what you going to do.....I advocate planning for it now you are all nah plenty of immigrants
“Run out” of immigrants….? I mean we might have a problem in a thought experiment version 3023 when everyone lives here, but then really we’d have just defined the empire. Win/win.
You know what just talk to the hand because you are a complete and utter idiot, the only difference in fact between you and plankton is you are probably taller
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
Do you think the population can or should go on increasing forever?
It is arguable that it should. They were already getting their knickers in a twist about the prospect of London swallowing up Hammersmith in the Tudor times. Something will always come along. By the time it gets too big, we can colonise the planets.
Please excuse my innacurate reference to costume - of course in the Tudor times they did not wear knickers.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
Do you think the population can or should go on increasing forever?
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
Do you think the population can or should go on increasing forever?
It depends by how much. Britain's land mass is small, and its verdant landscape needs to be protected, but on the other hand areas of even cities like London are still low density , by European standards. Large areas of Scotland and Wales are even lower density.
Think if we made cities like London and Manchester ultra high rise we could fit 200 million in the UK easily. London could expand to a population or around 40 million if we replaced a lot of the low rise development in the centre with huge tower blocks.
A question for the great and good here. (Hopefully this hasn't already been discussed)
IDS has just been on BBC news discussing Partygate and made an interesting claim that I have not heard before.
He said that Erskine May says that an MP is guilty if they 'knowingly' mislead Parliament but that the Standards Committee have widened the remit and said that misleading in itself is enough to find Johnson guilty, whether it was knowingly or unknowingly.
So a few questions arise.
- is IDS right that Erskine May says it specifically has to be knowingly? - if so have the committee widened the brief (without allowing Parliament to debate a rule change)? - Does it matter? Is Erskine May guidance or rules? - if the committee do find him guilty of misleading the House but decide it was not intentional, should they still be able to punish him?
Personally I would like them to throw the book at him as I think he did it all knowingly but I would be uncomfortable if they have bent the rules to do that.
Fascinating set of issues; and where angels fear to tread.
I am no expert on this but this is my starting point - all open to question and caveats.
Parliament (strictly crown in parliament - same thing) is the supreme authority the UK possesses.
Because of this its actions can't be appealed, except to itself, or litigated. It is its own litigation and litigator. So, for example, if prorogation were an action of parliament (it isn't) the SC could not have ruled on its validity.
Courts can and do rule on the meaning of the actions of parliament, its interpretation, confusions and contradictions.
But parliament in itself can 'do no wrong' so to speak - like the crown. It makes its own rules.
Might Boris be the one person who would test this in court?
NB (AIUI the rules suggest that misleading the house intentionally is an offence; as is the separate issue of failing in a timely way to correct if it is done unintentionally.)
On immigration, can I just take two minutes to voice this unpopular and seldom said opinion?
If someone has the balls and the drive to find their way out of a country in an unstable region, and run the gauntlet of people smugglers, get across the channel in weather P&O wouldn’t dream of sailing in, all whilst not knowing if they will ever see their family again, all for a dream of living in the U.K.; I want them here.
That’s exactly who we need. I’d want to actively compete for them except we don’t need to - they choose us even though we are horrible to them.
Ah yes just want we want, people who associate with criminals and are happy to break the law....who could want anyone better?
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Given a lot of them 40 odd percent are albanian are gangsters being brought in for country lines and a good percentage of the others are victims of people traffickers then yes sorry fuck off they aren't an advantage to the country they are a pustulent sore that needs lancing
Try some criticial thinking one day, you might enjoy it. You have cause and effect the wrong way around. Precisely because they are driven into the hands of criminals, they are at risk of incurring a “debt” and being drawn in. Be more open and we get them first.
You might wish to try a little of that critical thinking yourself. Intemperate though Pagan's language is, the point he raises is a valid one. You need to ask yourself why someone from Albania would want to pay £500 to a trafficker to undertake a risky sea voyage in a leaky dinghy, when there are cheap flights from Tirana to whichever UK airport takes their fancy. The only logical answer I can think of is that they do not wish their passport to be checked and their image be registered on a database - but I am open to alternative explanations.
Because we wouldn’t let them in to stay…. sort of my point.
So we wouldn't let them stay because they aren't refugees? That is a reason to defend them for crossing in boats.....really do fuck off
Did you not read anything I wrote? My whole point is I want economic migrants. So should we all.
We have enough crooks and wrong uns already though , sounds like you would take any old dross.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
Do you think the population can or should go on increasing forever?
It won't. World population is projected to peak in just a few decades, in 2064 in this model:
I will be a hundred that year, so unlikely to see it, but my son will. As population trends are accelerating faster than expected, it may be considerably sooner.
On immigration, can I just take two minutes to voice this unpopular and seldom said opinion?
If someone has the balls and the drive to find their way out of a country in an unstable region, and run the gauntlet of people smugglers, get across the channel in weather P&O wouldn’t dream of sailing in, all whilst not knowing if they will ever see their family again, all for a dream of living in the U.K.; I want them here.
That’s exactly who we need. I’d want to actively compete for them except we don’t need to - they choose us even though we are horrible to them.
Ah yes just want we want, people who associate with criminals and are happy to break the law....who could want anyone better?
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Given a lot of them 40 odd percent are albanian are gangsters being brought in for country lines and a good percentage of the others are victims of people traffickers then yes sorry fuck off they aren't an advantage to the country they are a pustulent sore that needs lancing
Try some criticial thinking one day, you might enjoy it. You have cause and effect the wrong way around. Precisely because they are driven into the hands of criminals, they are at risk of incurring a “debt” and being drawn in. Be more open and we get them first.
You might wish to try a little of that critical thinking yourself. Intemperate though Pagan's language is, the point he raises is a valid one. You need to ask yourself why someone from Albania would want to pay £500 to a trafficker to undertake a risky sea voyage in a leaky dinghy, when there are cheap flights from Tirana to whichever UK airport takes their fancy. The only logical answer I can think of is that they do not wish their passport to be checked and their image be registered on a database - but I am open to alternative explanations.
Because we wouldn’t let them in to stay…. sort of my point.
So we wouldn't let them stay because they aren't refugees? That is a reason to defend them for crossing in boats.....really do fuck off
Did you not read anything I wrote? My whole point is I want economic migrants. So should we all.
We have enough crooks and wrong uns already though , sounds like you would take any old dross.
Do you think we have had too much immigration into this country?
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
Do you think the population can or should go on increasing forever?
I hope and pray your concern about immigration isnt barely concealed racism.
Now the fannies with nothing to add bring out what they think is their ace card. Feck off loser.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
Do you think the population can or should go on increasing forever?
It is arguable that it should. They were already getting their knickers in a twist about the prospect of London swallowing up Hammersmith in the Tudor times. Something will always come along. By the time it gets too big, we can colonise the planets.
Please excuse my innacurate reference to costume - of course in the Tudor times they did not wear knickers.
Depends if you consider Elizabeth I as Tudor, she was a big fan of Knicker-bocker glorianas.
On immigration, can I just take two minutes to voice this unpopular and seldom said opinion?
If someone has the balls and the drive to find their way out of a country in an unstable region, and run the gauntlet of people smugglers, get across the channel in weather P&O wouldn’t dream of sailing in, all whilst not knowing if they will ever see their family again, all for a dream of living in the U.K.; I want them here.
That’s exactly who we need. I’d want to actively compete for them except we don’t need to - they choose us even though we are horrible to them.
Ah yes just want we want, people who associate with criminals and are happy to break the law....who could want anyone better?
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Given a lot of them 40 odd percent are albanian are gangsters being brought in for country lines and a good percentage of the others are victims of people traffickers then yes sorry fuck off they aren't an advantage to the country they are a pustulent sore that needs lancing
Try some criticial thinking one day, you might enjoy it. You have cause and effect the wrong way around. Precisely because they are driven into the hands of criminals, they are at risk of incurring a “debt” and being drawn in. Be more open and we get them first.
You might wish to try a little of that critical thinking yourself. Intemperate though Pagan's language is, the point he raises is a valid one. You need to ask yourself why someone from Albania would want to pay £500 to a trafficker to undertake a risky sea voyage in a leaky dinghy, when there are cheap flights from Tirana to whichever UK airport takes their fancy. The only logical answer I can think of is that they do not wish their passport to be checked and their image be registered on a database - but I am open to alternative explanations.
Because we wouldn’t let them in to stay…. sort of my point.
So we wouldn't let them stay because they aren't refugees? That is a reason to defend them for crossing in boats.....really do fuck off
Did you not read anything I wrote? My whole point is I want economic migrants. So should we all.
We have enough crooks and wrong uns already though , sounds like you would take any old dross.
"any old dross" . Poor people wanting a better life to malcolmg are just "any old dross". We see you.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
Do you think the population can or should go on increasing forever?
It always has done thus far. Volcanoes excepted.
It dropped after the Black Death, and the resultant shortage of workers led to greater economic equality.
A question for the great and good here. (Hopefully this hasn't already been discussed)
IDS has just been on BBC news discussing Partygate and made an interesting claim that I have not heard before.
He said that Erskine May says that an MP is guilty if they 'knowingly' mislead Parliament but that the Standards Committee have widened the remit and said that misleading in itself is enough to find Johnson guilty, whether it was knowingly or unknowingly.
So a few questions arise.
- is IDS right that Erskine May says it specifically has to be knowingly? - if so have the committee widened the brief (without allowing Parliament to debate a rule change)? - Does it matter? Is Erskine May guidance or rules? - if the committee do find him guilty of misleading the House but decide it was not intentional, should they still be able to punish him?
Personally I would like them to throw the book at him as I think he did it all knowingly but I would be uncomfortable if they have bent the rules to do that.
Fascinating set of issues; and where angels fear to tread.
I am no expert on this but this is my starting point - all open to question and caveats.
Parliament (strictly crown in parliament - same thing) is the supreme authority the UK possesses.
Because of this its actions can't be appealed, except to itself, or litigated. It is its own litigation and litigator. So, for example, if prorogation were an action of parliament (it isn't) the SC could not have ruled on its validity.
Courts can and do rule on the meaning of the actions of parliament, its interpretation, confusions and contradictions.
But parliament in itself can 'do no wrong' so to speak - like the crown. It makes its own rules.
Might Boris be the one person who would test this in court?
NB (AIUI the rules suggest that misleading the house intentionally is an offence; as is the separate issue of failing in a timely way to correct if it is done unintentionally.)
Irrelevant anyway. If you unknowingly mislead the House, you return at the earliest possible moment to correct the record. So it doesn't really matter. The question is still one of misleading the House. The fact he accepted a FPN proves he was in the wrong. He didn't correct the record. Because he's a professional bullshitter.
Since the King is the Head of the Church of England, and the coronation is a religious service held in Westminster Abbey overseen by the Archbishop of Canterbury, being surprised that it's a Christian ceremony is about as much of a shock to me as learning the true meaning of Christmas.
Didn't Charles express a wish some years ago that he wanted to be "Defender of Faith" rather than "Defender of THE Faith"?
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
And yet neither you nor anyone else has those answers. And until we do have we have to maintain the levels of immigration or the whole system falls apart. A Ponzi scheme is only a valid argument if you think this was an unnecessary way to deal with a non existent problem. The problem is real and currently immigration is the only reasonable way we have to deal with it. Until you have an alternative, your criticism is pointless and illogical.
Do you disagree immigration is a ponzi scheme? first question Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse?
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
And yet neither you nor anyone else has those answers. And until we do have we have to maintain the levels of immigration or the whole system falls apart. A Ponzi scheme is only a valid argument if you think this was an unnecessary way to deal with a non existent problem. The problem is real and currently immigration is the only reasonable way we have to deal with it. Until you have an alternative, your criticism is pointless and illogical.
Do you disagree immigration is a ponzi scheme? first question Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse? second question
So why do you have an issue with me saying now is when we need to think how do we deal with a falling population so when the ponzi collapses we have an answer?
Yes I disagree it is a Ponzi scheme.
So your second question is invalid.
Well only invalid because you dont think we will run out of immigrants...even africa is now falling on replacement rates so in the answer is yes all ponzi schemes collapse. Why then do you not think the answer is to start working out how we deal with a falling population is now rather than when we have no choice
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
The answer to living with a falling population is high taxes on those still working but you are not happy with that either. Low taxes, falling population and very low immigration is a fantasy mix.
Perhaps the answer is lower fucking government spending rather than high taxes
If only the government did spend more money on fucking. It'd be much more popular.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
And yet neither you nor anyone else has those answers. And until we do have we have to maintain the levels of immigration or the whole system falls apart. A Ponzi scheme is only a valid argument if you think this was an unnecessary way to deal with a non existent problem. The problem is real and currently immigration is the only reasonable way we have to deal with it. Until you have an alternative, your criticism is pointless and illogical.
Do you disagree immigration is a ponzi scheme? first question Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse?
Since the King is the Head of the Church of England, and the coronation is a religious service held in Westminster Abbey overseen by the Archbishop of Canterbury, being surprised that it's a Christian ceremony is about as much of a shock to me as learning the true meaning of Christmas.
Didn't Charles express a wish some years ago that he wanted to be "Defender of Faith" rather than "Defender of THE Faith"?
No he just wanted to be defender of faiths he agreed with
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
Do you think the population can or should go on increasing forever?
It depends by how much. Britain's land mass is small, and its verdant landscape needs to be protected, but on the other hand areas of even cities like London are still low density , by European standards. Large areas of Scotland and Wales are even lower density.
Think if we made cities like London and Manchester ultra high rise we could fit 200 million in the UK easily. London could expand to a population or around 40 million if we replaced a lot of the low rise development in the centre with huge tower blocks.
This would be a nightmare for some people, but if all the historic neighbourhoods were protected, I personally would have no problem with an ultra-green future of cities like London, Manchester and Glasgow adding tens of millions in sustainable high-rises covered in plants , as some architects fondly project, providing the balance between integration and multiculturalism was handled correctly, probably Canadian-style.
At least part of the Brexiters' community might even get used to the idea too, once they realised it would make Britain the major demographic, and probably even cultural, power in Europe, in time. Despite all this, I hasten to add that I'm not at all a fan of green-field or suburbanising development. Keep as much of the little green space we have as possible, for our spiritual health as much as anything else.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
Do you think the population can or should go on increasing forever?
It always has done thus far. Volcanoes excepted.
It dropped after the Black Death, and the resultant shortage of workers led to greater economic equality.
Although it took a long time. Peasants revolt was a good three decades later. I’m fascinated that after the Black Death wars continued pretty much unabated, leading to Poitiers in 1356, hot on the heels of Crecy in 1346. So, traumatic as ‘King death’ was, it seems the survivors just got on with it.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
And yet neither you nor anyone else has those answers. And until we do have we have to maintain the levels of immigration or the whole system falls apart. A Ponzi scheme is only a valid argument if you think this was an unnecessary way to deal with a non existent problem. The problem is real and currently immigration is the only reasonable way we have to deal with it. Until you have an alternative, your criticism is pointless and illogical.
Do you disagree immigration is a ponzi scheme? first question Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse?
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
And yet neither you nor anyone else has those answers. And until we do have we have to maintain the levels of immigration or the whole system falls apart. A Ponzi scheme is only a valid argument if you think this was an unnecessary way to deal with a non existent problem. The problem is real and currently immigration is the only reasonable way we have to deal with it. Until you have an alternative, your criticism is pointless and illogical.
Do you disagree immigration is a ponzi scheme? first question Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse?
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
And yet neither you nor anyone else has those answers. And until we do have we have to maintain the levels of immigration or the whole system falls apart. A Ponzi scheme is only a valid argument if you think this was an unnecessary way to deal with a non existent problem. The problem is real and currently immigration is the only reasonable way we have to deal with it. Until you have an alternative, your criticism is pointless and illogical.
Do you disagree immigration is a ponzi scheme? first question Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse? second question
So why do you have an issue with me saying now is when we need to think how do we deal with a falling population so when the ponzi collapses we have an answer?
Yes I disagree it is a Ponzi scheme.
So your second question is invalid.
Well only invalid because you dont think we will run out of immigrants...even africa is now falling on replacement rates so in the answer is yes all ponzi schemes collapse. Why then do you not think the answer is to start working out how we deal with a falling population is now rather than when we have no choice
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
The answer to living with a falling population is high taxes on those still working but you are not happy with that either. Low taxes, falling population and very low immigration is a fantasy mix.
Perhaps the answer is lower fucking government spending rather than high taxes
If only the government did spend more money on fucking. It'd be much more popular.
Please no they would just send liz truss on a uk wide tour
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
And yet neither you nor anyone else has those answers. And until we do have we have to maintain the levels of immigration or the whole system falls apart. A Ponzi scheme is only a valid argument if you think this was an unnecessary way to deal with a non existent problem. The problem is real and currently immigration is the only reasonable way we have to deal with it. Until you have an alternative, your criticism is pointless and illogical.
Do you disagree immigration is a ponzi scheme? first question Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse?
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
And yet neither you nor anyone else has those answers. And until we do have we have to maintain the levels of immigration or the whole system falls apart. A Ponzi scheme is only a valid argument if you think this was an unnecessary way to deal with a non existent problem. The problem is real and currently immigration is the only reasonable way we have to deal with it. Until you have an alternative, your criticism is pointless and illogical.
Do you disagree immigration is a ponzi scheme? first question Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse?
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
And when the millions of immigrants run out what the fuck then because it is going to happen even africa which is still above replacement rate the birth rate is falling....so you run out of immigrants what you going to do.....I advocate planning for it now you are all nah plenty of immigrants
“Run out” of immigrants….? I mean we might have a problem in a thought experiment version 3023 when everyone lives here, but then really we’d have just defined the empire. Win/win.
You know what just talk to the hand because you are a complete and utter idiot, the only difference in fact between you and plankton is you are probably taller
Well I do know how to use punctuation. So that’s something.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
Do you think the population can or should go on increasing forever?
It always has done thus far. Volcanoes excepted.
It dropped after the Black Death, and the resultant shortage of workers led to greater economic equality.
Although it took a long time. Peasants revolt was a good three decades later. I’m fascinated that after the Black Death wars continued pretty much unabated, leading to Poitiers in 1356, hot on the heels of Crecy in 1346. So, traumatic as ‘King death’ was, it seems the survivors just got on with it.
Hang on, does that mean post Covid that we need to go on chevauchée in France?
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
And yet neither you nor anyone else has those answers. And until we do have we have to maintain the levels of immigration or the whole system falls apart. A Ponzi scheme is only a valid argument if you think this was an unnecessary way to deal with a non existent problem. The problem is real and currently immigration is the only reasonable way we have to deal with it. Until you have an alternative, your criticism is pointless and illogical.
Do you disagree immigration is a ponzi scheme? first question Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse?
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
And yet neither you nor anyone else has those answers. And until we do have we have to maintain the levels of immigration or the whole system falls apart. A Ponzi scheme is only a valid argument if you think this was an unnecessary way to deal with a non existent problem. The problem is real and currently immigration is the only reasonable way we have to deal with it. Until you have an alternative, your criticism is pointless and illogical.
Do you disagree immigration is a ponzi scheme? first question Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse? second question
So why do you have an issue with me saying now is when we need to think how do we deal with a falling population so when the ponzi collapses we have an answer?
Yes I disagree it is a Ponzi scheme.
So your second question is invalid.
Well only invalid because you dont think we will run out of immigrants...even africa is now falling on replacement rates so in the answer is yes all ponzi schemes collapse. Why then do you not think the answer is to start working out how we deal with a falling population is now rather than when we have no choice
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
The answer to living with a falling population is high taxes on those still working but you are not happy with that either. Low taxes, falling population and very low immigration is a fantasy mix.
Perhaps the answer is lower fucking government spending rather than high taxes
If only the government did spend more money on fucking. It'd be much more popular.
Well I do know how to use punctuation. So that’s something.
Wow that is your come back your case must be so strong and water tight I suspect Jolyon might even take it up go waste some money with the good law project and sue me it would be the probably most worthwhile thing you ever did
On immigration, can I just take two minutes to voice this unpopular and seldom said opinion?
If someone has the balls and the drive to find their way out of a country in an unstable region, and run the gauntlet of people smugglers, get across the channel in weather P&O wouldn’t dream of sailing in, all whilst not knowing if they will ever see their family again, all for a dream of living in the U.K.; I want them here.
That’s exactly who we need. I’d want to actively compete for them except we don’t need to - they choose us even though we are horrible to them.
Ah yes just want we want, people who associate with criminals and are happy to break the law....who could want anyone better?
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Given a lot of them 40 odd percent are albanian are gangsters being brought in for country lines and a good percentage of the others are victims of people traffickers then yes sorry fuck off they aren't an advantage to the country they are a pustulent sore that needs lancing
Try some criticial thinking one day, you might enjoy it. You have cause and effect the wrong way around. Precisely because they are driven into the hands of criminals, they are at risk of incurring a “debt” and being drawn in. Be more open and we get them first.
You might wish to try a little of that critical thinking yourself. Intemperate though Pagan's language is, the point he raises is a valid one. You need to ask yourself why someone from Albania would want to pay £500 to a trafficker to undertake a risky sea voyage in a leaky dinghy, when there are cheap flights from Tirana to whichever UK airport takes their fancy. The only logical answer I can think of is that they do not wish their passport to be checked and their image be registered on a database - but I am open to alternative explanations.
Because we wouldn’t let them in to stay…. sort of my point.
So we wouldn't let them stay because they aren't refugees? That is a reason to defend them for crossing in boats.....really do fuck off
Did you not read anything I wrote? My whole point is I want economic migrants. So should we all.
We have enough crooks and wrong uns already though , sounds like you would take any old dross.
I think it’s self selecting. Lazy gits are lazy and don’t come. The ones who come got off their arse.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
Do you think the population can or should go on increasing forever?
It is arguable that it should. They were already getting their knickers in a twist about the prospect of London swallowing up Hammersmith in the Tudor times. Something will always come along. By the time it gets too big, we can colonise the planets.
Please excuse my innacurate reference to costume - of course in the Tudor times they did not wear knickers.
Though rightly there is a renewed academic interest in all this as part of looking at history with women more in mind. So while this is true (they didn't wear shell suits either) there is more to be said, some of it not for the faint hearted.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
Do you think the population can or should go on increasing forever?
It depends by how much. Britain's land mass is small, and its verdant landscape needs to be protected, but on the other hand areas of even cities like London are still low density , by European standards. Large areas of Scotland and Wales are even lower density.
Think if we made cities like London and Manchester ultra high rise we could fit 200 million in the UK easily. London could expand to a population or around 40 million if we replaced a lot of the low rise development in the centre with huge tower blocks.
This would be a nightmare for some people, but if all the historic neighbourhoods were protected, I personally would have no problem with an ultra-green future of cities like London, Manchester and Glasgow adding tens of millions in sustainable high-rises covered in plants , as some architects fondly project, providing the balance between integration and multiculturalism was handled correctly, probably Canadian-style.
At least part of the Brexiters' community might even get used to the idea too, once they realised it would make Britain the major demographic, and probably even cultural, power in Europe, in time. Despite all this I'm not at all a fan of green-field or suburbanising development. Keep as much of the little green space we have as possible, for our spiritual health as much as anything else.
You final para is me. I wanted a hard Brexit and want open doors. We do exist….
The Windsor Framework was ratified by the UK and EU today in London
Sunak has told the DUP and the remnants of the ERG it will not be further renegotiated, and additional Sunak is talking to the EU over horizon and improved trade in this new climate of cooperation he has promoted
The WF is his legacy no matter what happens in 24
It was also a first for a longtime for Sunak and Drakeford to act jointly in attending Holyhead to promote its new status aa a free port in a similar collegiate attitude he showed to the EU. Johnson and Truss would never have thought of this approach to politics
I'm not quite sure why "SKS fans" should have to explain anything.
As to why Sunak's ratings have risen (perhaps more than Starmer's have fallen) I think we can put this down to his steady unremarkable managerialism. He's in Government and governing which is certainly more than his two immediate predecessors managed. Charismatic he's not but competent, yes, I'll cheerfully concede that (and certainly in contrast to Johnson and Truss). He's more in the mould of a Theresa May I think.
There's also the not unreasonable point there's a sense we've got through the winter, spring is coming and there's a prospect of better weather which makes people feel better about life in general. Whether upcoming bills (Council Tax, the end of the winter fuel payment) will continue to stimulate this optimism remains to be seen.
However, and to be absolutely fair, Sunak is at least trying to be Prime Minister and that's been a novelty in recent times.
I've been delivering her mail since I started six months ago and have always got on well with her
Today I made her eyes light up, and made her talk for five minutes after she'd invited me in (it had just got very gloomy and windy outdoors at the doorstep), by asking one, very short question
"What do you know about Cantoo Baboo?"
Before she could reply, I said
"I think you're the only person in town that could answer this question, and I'm the only person that would ask it"
Cantoo Baboo lived under the East India Company
He saved enough money to rent a jackfruit tree for a year
He had to live under that tree to stop people from stealing his jackfruit
He turned that into a business empire that survives today
Baboo's descendant (who'd written about Baboo) contacted my Lady friend's late husband (a month after I was born) because he (the husband) was writing a history of the EIC
Sir & Lady met Baboo Jr every year in Marlborough until Sir died
So, to get back to the topic, for just a moment, when will the SNP leadership results be announced? (Roughly is good enough for me, since I don't have a bet on the outcome.)
The Windsor Framework was ratified by the UK and EU today in London
Sunak has told the DUP and the remnants of the ERG it will not be further renegotiated, and additional Sunak is talking to the EU over horizon and improved trade in this new climate of cooperation he has promoted
The WF is his legacy no matter what happens in 24
It was also a first for a longtime for Sunak and Drakeford to act jointly in attending Holyhead to promote its new status aa a free port in a similar collegiate attitude he showed to the EU. Johnson and Truss would never have thought of this approach to politics
Sunak should speak to Biden about whether if Alliance or the UUP were invited to provide the Deputy First Minister, the Good Friday Agreement could be deemed to continue.
I'm not quite sure why "SKS fans" should have to explain anything.
As to why Sunak's ratings have risen (perhaps more than Starmer's have fallen) I think we can put this down to his steady unremarkable managerialism. He's in Government and governing which is certainly more than his two immediate predecessors managed. Charismatic he's not but competent, yes, I'll cheerfully concede that (and certainly in contrast to Johnson and Truss). He's more in the mould of a Theresa May I think.
There's also the not unreasonable point there's a sense we've got through the winter, spring is coming and there's a prospect of better weather which makes people feel better about life in general. Whether upcoming bills (Council Tax, the end of the winter fuel payment) will continue to stimulate this optimism remains to be seen.
However, and to be absolutely fair, Sunak is at least trying to be Prime Minister and that's been a novelty in recent times.
So, to get back to the topic, for just a moment, when will the SNP leadership results be announced? (Roughly is good enough for me, since I don't have a bet on the outcome.)
I've been delivering her mail since I started six months ago and have always got on well with her
Today I made her eyes light up, and made her talk for five minutes after she'd invited me in (it had just got very gloomy and windy outdoors at the doorstep), by asking one, very short question
"What do you know about Cantoo Baboo?"
Before she could reply, I said
"I think you're the only person in town that could answer this question, and I'm the only person that would ask it"
Cantoo Baboo lived under the East India Company
He saved enough money to rent a jackfruit tree for a year
He had to live under that tree to stop people from stealing his jackfruit
He turned that into a business empire that survives today
Baboo's descendant (who'd written about Baboo) contacted my Lady friend's late husband (a month after I was born) because he (the husband) was writing a history of the EIC
Sir & Lady met Baboo Jr every year in Marlborough until Sir died
She's going to lend me his book
How did you know to ask? Had you been having a sift through her post?
The Windsor Framework was ratified by the UK and EU today in London
Sunak has told the DUP and the remnants of the ERG it will not be further renegotiated, and additional Sunak is talking to the EU over horizon and improved trade in this new climate of cooperation he has promoted
The WF is his legacy no matter what happens in 24
It was also a first for a longtime for Sunak and Drakeford to act jointly in attending Holyhead to promote its new status aa a free port in a similar collegiate attitude he showed to the EU. Johnson and Truss would never have thought of this approach to politics
Sunak should speak to Biden about whether if Alliance or the UUP were invited to provide the Deputy First Minister, the Good Friday Agreement could be deemed to continue.
It is a despicable concept that his input would be considered necessary.
The Windsor Framework was ratified by the UK and EU today in London
Sunak has told the DUP and the remnants of the ERG it will not be further renegotiated, and additional Sunak is talking to the EU over horizon and improved trade in this new climate of cooperation he has promoted
The WF is his legacy no matter what happens in 24
It was also a first for a longtime for Sunak and Drakeford to act jointly in attending Holyhead to promote its new status aa a free port in a similar collegiate attitude he showed to the EU. Johnson and Truss would never have thought of this approach to politics
Sunak should speak to Biden about whether if Alliance or the UUP were invited to provide the Deputy First Minister, the Good Friday Agreement could be deemed to continue.
It would have to be a UUP DFM under the GFA as if the FM is a Nationalist the DFM must be a Unionist (the Alliance could provide ministers to the executive, combined SF, the Alliance and UUP would have a clear majority with 53 out of 90 MLAs)
I've been delivering her mail since I started six months ago and have always got on well with her
Today I made her eyes light up, and made her talk for five minutes after she'd invited me in (it had just got very gloomy and windy outdoors at the doorstep), by asking one, very short question
"What do you know about Cantoo Baboo?"
Before she could reply, I said
"I think you're the only person in town that could answer this question, and I'm the only person that would ask it"
Cantoo Baboo lived under the East India Company
He saved enough money to rent a jackfruit tree for a year
He had to live under that tree to stop people from stealing his jackfruit
He turned that into a business empire that survives today
Baboo's descendant (who'd written about Baboo) contacted my Lady friend's late husband (a month after I was born) because he (the husband) was writing a history of the EIC
Sir & Lady met Baboo Jr every year in Marlborough until Sir died
She's going to lend me his book
How did you know to ask? Had you been having a sift through her post?
I googled her, because I thought I remembered her husband's name from when I applied for (and got) a job with an Indian company almost twenty years ago. I'd looked up local links with India. I don't think the research helped me get the job
She didn't mind at all that I'd googled her; she was amazed (and a bit pleased) that she could be found
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
“We need to learn to live with a falling population”. Think that one through with regard to state pensions.
Yes I do and its not going to be easy but its also true....everywhere in the world is going to have this same problem because round the world birth rates are below replacement rates except africa.....don't you think now is the right time to think about how we cope rather than when it becomes a fucking emergency situation?
Erm, no I think one helpful solution to a falling population is millions wanting to immigrate here….
Do you think the population can or should go on increasing forever?
It always has done thus far. Volcanoes excepted.
It dropped after the Black Death, and the resultant shortage of workers led to greater economic equality.
Although it took a long time. Peasants revolt was a good three decades later. I’m fascinated that after the Black Death wars continued pretty much unabated, leading to Poitiers in 1356, hot on the heels of Crecy in 1346. So, traumatic as ‘King death’ was, it seems the survivors just got on with it.
Hang on, does that mean post Covid that we need to go on chevauchée in France?
I'm game.
You may have the honour of the right of the line, sir. You head over and we’ll catch you up…
I'm not quite sure why "SKS fans" should have to explain anything.
As to why Sunak's ratings have risen (perhaps more than Starmer's have fallen) I think we can put this down to his steady unremarkable managerialism. He's in Government and governing which is certainly more than his two immediate predecessors managed. Charismatic he's not but competent, yes, I'll cheerfully concede that (and certainly in contrast to Johnson and Truss). He's more in the mould of a Theresa May I think.
There's also the not unreasonable point there's a sense we've got through the winter, spring is coming and there's a prospect of better weather which makes people feel better about life in general. Whether upcoming bills (Council Tax, the end of the winter fuel payment) will continue to stimulate this optimism remains to be seen.
However, and to be absolutely fair, Sunak is at least trying to be Prime Minister and that's been a novelty in recent times.
I love the way you have actually explained it.
You're very kind - I'm not a fan of Starmer though I think he would also be a reasonable and competent Prime Minister.
I find some elements of the Conservative Party behind Sunak absolutely repellent - I also think in the interests of democracy the "Natural Party of Government" shouldn't be the perpetual Party of Government and periodic changes of governing party are beneficial.
I'm not quite sure why "SKS fans" should have to explain anything.
As to why Sunak's ratings have risen (perhaps more than Starmer's have fallen) I think we can put this down to his steady unremarkable managerialism. He's in Government and governing which is certainly more than his two immediate predecessors managed. Charismatic he's not but competent, yes, I'll cheerfully concede that (and certainly in contrast to Johnson and Truss). He's more in the mould of a Theresa May I think.
There's also the not unreasonable point there's a sense we've got through the winter, spring is coming and there's a prospect of better weather which makes people feel better about life in general. Whether upcoming bills (Council Tax, the end of the winter fuel payment) will continue to stimulate this optimism remains to be seen.
However, and to be absolutely fair, Sunak is at least trying to be Prime Minister and that's been a novelty in recent times.
I love the way you have actually explained it.
You're very kind - I'm not a fan of Starmer though I think he would also be a reasonable and competent Prime Minister.
I find some elements of the Conservative Party behind Sunak absolutely repellent - I also think in the interests of democracy the "Natural Party of Government" shouldn't be the perpetual Party of Government and periodic changes of governing party are beneficial.
Too many dreary unquestioning Tory rampers on here. Your analysis is always very readable, theirs on the whole, not so much.
Another reason to abolish the coronation, it's going to be hijacked.
The Church of England plans to use the King’s coronation ceremony as a “unique opportunity” to convert people to Christianity and has released prayers asking God to “pour abundant gifts” on the new monarch.
The Archbishops of Canterbury and York, the Most Revs Justin Welby and Stephen Cottrell, have described the coronation as a “unique missional opportunity” to showcase “rich Christian symbols and values” to a global audience, hoping that it will help people to “encounter Jesus”.
The church has also released an information pack with details for 28 days of prayer between Easter day on April 9 and coronation day on May 6 so the nation can engage in “spiritual preparation alongside the King”.
Good to see that the C of E tradition for housing otherworldly eccentrics still flourishes.
I’m interested (as an atheist) as to how the Head Shed of a religion using a religious ceremony, in his number one venue, for recruitment is “hijacking”.
Isn’t that his job?
I'm more interested in how he thinks the coronation might convert anyone at all.
It really is a very odd idea.
Yes - "I was against the concept of thr monarchy, but the sheer magnificence of the ceremony won me over" - hard to imagine that's going to be a massive group.
It isn't trying to convert republicans to monarchists, the focus is more on converting agnostic monarchists to Christian monarchists from the Church of England's point of view (and Welby is on the evangelical wing of the Church of England after all).
Given about 2/3 of the UK population are monarchists still but only 47% of the UK population are now Christians that is nearly 20% of the UK population for the Church of England to target and only a minority of them will be from other faiths or confirmed atheists
6% say they are actually practising.
Less than 1% attend Church on a typical week.
47% ticked a box.
5% attend a Christian church every week, whether Anglican, Roman Catholic or non Anglican evangelical. Roman Catholics have the highest attendance rate and Pentecostals the highest attendance growth.
Though more go once you include those who go only for Christmas, Easter or Mothering Sunday, weddings, baptisms and funerals
That appears to be nearly 10 years out of date, and importantly pre-covid, where a lot of the habitual attendees just stopped going.
And weddings, baptisms and christenings? Really?
Everyone should, by law, still have to be married in the Church of England Church as in the good old days before 1837.
And they should all have to hire an organist, who gets £500 for turning up and £750 more for playing the fucking awful bullshit they usually choose as music.
Social Work department at a university in California is too woke shocker.
Next we will be told that a Taliban unit in Kabul is hostile to women and their education.
Neither have much implication for Joe/Jane Average in the UK.
True, but these things don't stay in social work departments in universities. If they are truly stupid they should be called out early and nipped in the bud.
Err no albanians have no business here full stop. Be fucking less open and stop telling poor people they have to share meagre services between more and more people who aren't paying a single shekel
“Albanians have no business here at all”? What, any of them? Oh, ok. You’re just an old school racist and I can ignore you.
Its not a racist thing....they aren't refugees, albania isnt at civil war last I heard....why are they therefore arriving on boats claiming to be refugees. Albanians can apply for normal migrant status which is I believe you need a job paying a mere 26k a year. They have no business being on boats
That was rather the point of my first post, that you were replying to. I’d get rid of all those barriers… we should want these folk.
With migrants we should want net contributors.....what we dont need is minimum wage migrants. They don't add to net revenue all they do is supress wages. Have a job where you are a net gain come by all means....have a job where you aren't and sorry most minimum wage jobs aren't then all you are doing is providing an unlimited labour pool to keep those jobs min wage
And yet right now we can't get enough people from inside this country to do all those minimum wage jobs - the sorts of jobs that are vital to the running of our society but which no one seems to want to do. If you don't import that labour, how do you fill those vacancies in an aging population?
Immigration is a ponzi scheme...we need to learn how to live with a falling population. Africa is more or less the only place in the world with an above replacement birthrate....I suspect eventually it will catch up and have a falling rate too just like many developing countries have....what do we do then? Now is the right time to work it out how to deal with declining populations not when it becomes obvious that immigration is not a sustainable answer. There are undoubtedly tough questions ahead but the sooner we face them the less we hit a brick wall in the future
And yet neither you nor anyone else has those answers. And until we do have we have to maintain the levels of immigration or the whole system falls apart. A Ponzi scheme is only a valid argument if you think this was an unnecessary way to deal with a non existent problem. The problem is real and currently immigration is the only reasonable way we have to deal with it. Until you have an alternative, your criticism is pointless and illogical.
Sooner or later countries are going to need to bite the bullet and allow people a dignified, pain-free death at a time of their own choosing with proper safeguards of course.
Some people certainly wish to extend their lives as long as possible irrespective of the quality of their life, others don't. We spend increasing billions on keeping people alive who actually would prefer not to be because they have no real quality of life. Most of my peers (I'm mid 70s) live in dread of losing their independence/ mind and spending their final years in misery stuck in a care home
We have the ludicrous situation at present in the UK that suicide is legal but it is extremely difficult to access the means to end your own life peacefully and with dignity.
I predict that within the next few decades individuals will have secured the right to choose to die on their own terms at a time of their own choosing..
Another reason to abolish the coronation, it's going to be hijacked.
The Church of England plans to use the King’s coronation ceremony as a “unique opportunity” to convert people to Christianity and has released prayers asking God to “pour abundant gifts” on the new monarch.
The Archbishops of Canterbury and York, the Most Revs Justin Welby and Stephen Cottrell, have described the coronation as a “unique missional opportunity” to showcase “rich Christian symbols and values” to a global audience, hoping that it will help people to “encounter Jesus”.
The church has also released an information pack with details for 28 days of prayer between Easter day on April 9 and coronation day on May 6 so the nation can engage in “spiritual preparation alongside the King”.
Good to see that the C of E tradition for housing otherworldly eccentrics still flourishes.
I’m interested (as an atheist) as to how the Head Shed of a religion using a religious ceremony, in his number one venue, for recruitment is “hijacking”.
Isn’t that his job?
I'm more interested in how he thinks the coronation might convert anyone at all.
It really is a very odd idea.
Yes - "I was against the concept of thr monarchy, but the sheer magnificence of the ceremony won me over" - hard to imagine that's going to be a massive group.
True. Though I personally find "I was for the concept of the monarchy, but the display of wealth, privilege, and religiosity in the ceremony put me off" to be an odd and likely small group too, though even some monarchists have implied it.
Yesterday I read some posts on here that suggested the harsher people fleeing in dingys (sic) were treated the better Sunaks figures. It was written by someone who is apparently well versed in the Red Wall and Tory thinking. It seemed to be written approvingly though that's not important. But what a disgusting indictment of this country and the voters they attract.
I missed that comment, but I think its utterly preposterous and wrong and whoever said that knows absolutely nothing about the Red Wall.
Certain commentators on this site, especially some who live in the South in deepest blue territory, seem to project their own prejudices onto the North/Red Wall.
As someone who lives up here may I reject them all. There are a small minority of racists in the North, like there are everywhere else, but that is not what the Red Wall is and its not the North. Anyone who is saying that is not well versed whatsoever in the Red Wall and has almost certainly never lived here, never campaigned here, and never knocked up voters here.
FPT. Sorry I wasn't able to reply. I like your sentiments but the proof of the pudding is in the Prime Minister's appointment of Suella Braverman. Her statements about the people in dinghies have been pretty disgusting yet considered to be just what the Red Wallers want to hear to bring them back on side. If they were unattractive to that vital voting block I'm sure Sunak would have removed her.
Or Sunak recognises that the Red Wall could be lost either way and Suella is there to appeal to more traditionally blue seats to keep them happy and in the blue column.
The kind of seats from which all these comments projecting onto the Red Wall their own prejudices seem to be coming from anyway.
I can't think of a single commentator on this site from a Red Wall seat who is expressing those views or endorsing Suella Braverman. Those who seem to be doing so, seem to be in more typically safe blue seats than Red Wall seats.
Red Wall has become a flippant byline for people's own prejudices rather than thinking seriously about what people here actually want.
Hear hear, as someone who lives in a red wall seat I can only echo this. I would also go as far to say I have never heard anyone express a view on it. Issues like pay, fuel bills, availability of groceries for sure but not boat people.
People like Rogerdamus just have a passionate dislike for anything red wall blaming the red wall for Brexit. But your debating what people in the Red Wall think with a guy who spends half his life in France. He won't know, as you say it is people projecting.
The Red Wall is not a place, it's a type of voter. Specifically those who voted Tory for the 1st time in 2019 through genuine enthusiasm for Boris and his Brexit. These people delivered the big Con win and have been identified by both parties as key to the next election too. They will typically be Hard Leavers, quite nationalistic, anti-empathetic to migrants and refugees. The rhetoric designed to appeal to them can therefore cause the nose to wrinkle but we may as well get used to it, at least for the next 18 months.
Is it possible for politicians to do anything to stop the boats without causing the nose to wrinkle?
My understanding is that the vast majority of those crossing the channel illegally are not - in any sense of the word we would understand - refugees. And my view is that their arrival is not really a positive for the country - nor indeed (though this is less of my business) for their country of origin (i.e. Albania etc.). So I'd quite like something done which prevents their arrival. The Rwanda policy might disappoint many, but it does at least have the merit of being any policy at all, which is a welcome contrast to the last 30 years of immigration policy. For the record, I'm happy to welcome the likes of the Ukrainians, who are clearly genuine refugees.
You might take a different view on the desirability of the arrival of illegal immigrants, but I don't think my view is extreme or in any way 'wrong' to hold. Wrinkling your nose in distaste at the view that the crossings ought to be prevented is not particularly helpful.
A policy of dealing with the current backlog and promptly processing applications, and sending back those who do not have a valid claim, seems acceptable to everyone… except theConservative Party.
Except - practical experience has shown us that that's even less plausible than the Rwanda option. There needs to be something to deter people coming in the first place. Without that, the whole 3rd world beats a path to our door.
If getting the current system to work promptly and efficiently is "less plausible", then why do you have any faith that the Rwanda option will be executed well enough? If a succession of Conservative Home Secretaries are unable to enforce the existing rules, allowing a massive backlog to develop, why do you want to give them more powers? Enforce the existing rules, save money, allow those with valid asylum claims to get out of the system and into jobs where they can contribute to the country, and deport those without valid claims.
Promptly deporting individuals who do not have a valid asylum claim will deter people without valid asylum claims.
Fair points, and the answer is that I don't. But as advice, " dealing with the current backlog and promptly processing applications, and sending back those who do not have a valid claim" seems to equate to "just be better". You can't magic yourself competent. And however much we'd like to, it's hard to believe all home secretaries are genuinely idiots and everyone at the home office genuinely useless. More plausible to me is that we're asking them to do an impossible job. I have no faith in the Rwanda option. I doubt it will ever seriously happen. But at least they're not pretending the problem doesn't exist. If a future regime manages to deal with the backlog, promptly process applications and send back those who do not have a claim I will take this back.
Why can the Dutch process 95% of claims within 2 months? Are they magicians? Or do they have the political will and resources that our governments, mostly Tory, but even when new Labour still authoritarian within the Home Office, do not provide?
By all means fund it properly now specify what you are going to fund less than currently to make up the extra budget.
Well there's a billion or so already being spent every year keeping these folk in detention, and rather a lot promised to Rwanda for nothing very useful. A competently run Home Office along the lines suggested might actually cost us less.
That though is merely speculation, more efficient processing on the other hand may increase costs because more decide to come knowing they won't be waiting for years before they can work.
I am highly sceptical of "if we do this it might save us money" somehow everytime we end up spending more
And I'm highly sceptical of the utility of locking up a hundred thousand plus for years at a time for no good reason.
The current policies are both expensive and ineffective.
Where did I say currently what we have is good, just pointing out the call to properly fund comes with a cost.
Everyone on here is always demanding their pet cause be properly funded and no one ever goes and to fund it we can cut this or that
We have focussed obsessively on the short term cuts part of the equation for a long time so most of what can be cut there already has been, and beyond what is sustainable. Governments ignore the long term investements that can generate longer term and sustainable savings as they don't help their re-elections with the benefits coming 10-20 years down the line.
What you are left with is indeed few areas that are easy to cut quickly without causing damage and lots of areas where real investment will save money in the long term. People may not want to hear it but that is where we are.
Build more houses, train more doctors, fund the courts system, repair roads properly instead of covering over potholes, all these are simple examples where it should be obvious that spending more now is both the right thing to do, and cheaper over a lifetime.
You still need the money to spend it now
You cant raise taxes much further You can't borrow with no spending cuts as truss found
Its not I necessarily disagree with you but without the money to spend now its an idea going nowhere.
For now the only solution is
1) work out how much we can raise in tax as a maximum 2) work out how much it costs to fully fund everything 3) work out the priorities of what to full fund 4) cut the rest 5) as cost savings come through and not a moment before we can bring things back in dependent on priority
You can raise taxes.
You can borrow, if you do so sensibly and with a clear plan for how you will see a return on the investment, which is what Truss didn’t do.
No realistically you can't raise taxes much further, certainly not basic rate tax and there aren't enough of the rich to make more than a few billion. I am pretty sure we are getting towards the tipping point of the laffer curve that way and also damn sure even a 1% of basic rate tax is going to turn millions of JAMS into not making ends meet. Sure most on this board could afford it....the minimum wage guy not so much.
Fed up with the just raise taxes people because it really isn't that possible we are already paying more in tax than anytime in the last 30 years
We are paying high taxes and getting poor services. I largely blame the party in power for the last 13 years and hope to see them voted out at the next general election.
I largely blame all parties of the last 30 years and all the middle classed sots wanting their own bunce from the system which is how we ended up with tax credits going to people with higher rate incomes and such like. The majority of the country existing on wages of mid 20k isn't that concerned about your social justice conscience for foreign aid and refugees, the arts, diversity training officers etc, they want services that work and enough left out of their paypacket to actually live.
Then along come people like most pb posters and just wave it away with "oh just raise tax" because you can afford it....maybe you will only eat out 3 nights a week instead of 4......they on the other hand will skip heating or eating because the tax is raised
As with all these things the real answer is to reduce property prices so less money is spent on a mortgage. If you are mortgage free outside London 25 grand per year is a perfectly liveable salary.
Main problem is that the British economy, and a very large percentage of the electorate, is addicted to the crack cocaine of ever rising house prices, sustained by a chronic lack of supply. And the politicians are too terrified of the massed hordes of nimbies to fix the problem, so we're stuck.
Of course, ludicrously overpriced properties do at least offer a theoretical alternative to the problem of the endless ramping of income tax, and other levies on earned incomes, to fund the astronomical cost of state pensions and caring for the demented: tax the crap out of assets instead. But that would result in enraged screaming from the majority of the grey vote who are owner occupiers - a large group, and one closely overlapping with the dreaded nimbies, of whom the politicians are also terrified.
And so we continue, as a nation, to circle the plughole.
If you are an elderly spinster living alone in a large house you already pay a hefty amount in council tax, you don't need a wealth tax on top too thanks
Since the King is the Head of the Church of England, and the coronation is a religious service held in Westminster Abbey overseen by the Archbishop of Canterbury, being surprised that it's a Christian ceremony is about as much of a shock to me as learning the true meaning of Christmas.
Didn't Charles express a wish some years ago that he wanted to be "Defender of Faith" rather than "Defender of THE Faith"?
Supposedly. But even if he still does he's clearly toeing the line on the official line.
The Windsor Framework was ratified by the UK and EU today in London
Sunak has told the DUP and the remnants of the ERG it will not be further renegotiated, and additional Sunak is talking to the EU over horizon and improved trade in this new climate of cooperation he has promoted
The WF is his legacy no matter what happens in 24
It was also a first for a longtime for Sunak and Drakeford to act jointly in attending Holyhead to promote its new status aa a free port in a similar collegiate attitude he showed to the EU. Johnson and Truss would never have thought of this approach to politics
Sunak should speak to Biden about whether if Alliance or the UUP were invited to provide the Deputy First Minister, the Good Friday Agreement could be deemed to continue.
It would have to be a UUP DFM under the GFA as if the FM is a Nationalist the DFM must be a Unionist (the Alliance could provide ministers to the executive, combined SF, the Alliance and UUP would have a clear majority with 53 out of 90 MLAs)
Comments
On the downside jetpacks and carpets don't mix well.
See Rock in Cornwall
Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse? second question
So why do you have an issue with me saying now is when we need to think how do we deal with a falling population so when the ponzi collapses we have an answer?
So your second question is invalid.
The bigger the sample, the smaller the MoE which helps with analysis -
YouGov says this on MoE:
All polls are subject to a wide range of potential sources of error. On the basis of the historical record of the polls at recent general elections, there is a 9 in 10 chance that the true value of a party’s support lies within 4 points of the estimates provided by this poll, and a 2 in 3 chance that they lie within 2 points.
Redfield & Wilton says:
Margin of Error: All results are subject to a margin of error. By consequence, not all differences are statistically significant, especially among subsamples. In this 2,000 sample poll, if 50.0% of respondents gave a particular answer to a question––the worst-case scenario from the perspective of margin of error––it is 95.0% certain that the true value falls within a 2.19% range from the sample result. Subsample results from crosstabs are subject to a higher margin of error due to their lower sample sizes. Conclusions drawn from small subsamples should be treated with caution. We particularly emphasise caution when reporting on any subsample figures where the base is below 100 respondents
Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse? And when the millions of immigrants run out what the fuck then because it is going to happen even africa which is still above replacement rate the birth rate is falling....so you run out of immigrants what you going to do.....I advocate planning for it now you are all nah plenty of immigrants
Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse? Well only invalid as in the answer is yes all ponzi schemes collapse.
Why then do you not think the answer is to start working out how we deal with a falling population is now rather than when we have no choice
Forward looking, obviously.
https://twitter.com/Omnisis/status/1639284702648385538?t=gyqCw64PfPovaEPpLWAPBA&s=19
Also he rises above Starmer as best PM
https://twitter.com/Omnisis/status/1639284704087011334?t=SOkWUcQP_lDpz-a0-Z0vSQ&s=19
https://www.thelancet.com/article/S0140-6736(20)30677-2/fulltext
I will be a hundred that year, so unlikely to see it, but my son will. As population trends are accelerating faster than expected, it may be considerably sooner.
https://twitter.com/MrMoosey1/status/1639355538000470021/photo/1
Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse? You know what just talk to the hand because you are a complete and utter idiot, the only difference in fact between you and plankton is you are probably taller
Volcanoes excepted.
I am no expert on this but this is my starting point - all open to question and caveats.
Parliament (strictly crown in parliament - same thing) is the supreme authority the UK possesses.
Because of this its actions can't be appealed, except to itself, or litigated. It is its own litigation and litigator. So, for example, if prorogation were an action of parliament (it isn't) the SC could not have ruled on its validity.
Courts can and do rule on the meaning of the actions of parliament, its interpretation, confusions and contradictions.
But parliament in itself can 'do no wrong' so to speak - like the crown. It makes its own rules.
Might Boris be the one person who would test this in court?
NB
(AIUI the rules suggest that misleading the house intentionally is an offence; as is the separate issue of failing in a timely way to correct if it is done unintentionally.)
So it doesn't really matter.
The question is still one of misleading the House.
The fact he accepted a FPN proves he was in the wrong. He didn't correct the record.
Because he's a professional bullshitter.
Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse? No he just wanted to be defender of faiths he agreed with
At least part of the Brexiters' community might even get used to the idea too, once they realised it would make Britain the major demographic, and probably even cultural, power in Europe, in time. Despite all this, I hasten to add that I'm not at all a fan of green-field or suburbanising development. Keep as much of the little green space we have as possible, for our spiritual health as much as anything else.
I’m fascinated that after the Black Death wars continued pretty much unabated, leading to Poitiers in 1356, hot on the heels of Crecy in 1346.
So, traumatic as ‘King death’ was, it seems the survivors just got on with it.
Do you agree all ponzi schemes eventually collapse? Please no they would just send liz truss on a uk wide tour
I'm game.
Sunak has told the DUP and the remnants of the ERG it will not be further renegotiated, and additional Sunak is talking to the EU over horizon and improved trade in this new climate of cooperation he has promoted
The WF is his legacy no matter what happens in 24
It was also a first for a longtime for Sunak and Drakeford to act jointly in attending Holyhead to promote its new status aa a free port in a similar collegiate attitude he showed to the EU. Johnson and Truss would never have thought of this approach to politics
As to why Sunak's ratings have risen (perhaps more than Starmer's have fallen) I think we can put this down to his steady unremarkable managerialism. He's in Government and governing which is certainly more than his two immediate predecessors managed. Charismatic he's not but competent, yes, I'll cheerfully concede that (and certainly in contrast to Johnson and Truss). He's more in the mould of a Theresa May I think.
There's also the not unreasonable point there's a sense we've got through the winter, spring is coming and there's a prospect of better weather which makes people feel better about life in general. Whether upcoming bills (Council Tax, the end of the winter fuel payment) will continue to stimulate this optimism remains to be seen.
However, and to be absolutely fair, Sunak is at least trying to be Prime Minister and that's been a novelty in recent times.
I've been delivering her mail since I started six months ago and have always got on well with her
Today I made her eyes light up, and made her talk for five minutes after she'd invited me in (it had just got very gloomy and windy outdoors at the doorstep), by asking one, very short question
"What do you know about Cantoo Baboo?"
Before she could reply, I said
"I think you're the only person in town that could answer this question, and I'm the only person that would ask it"
Cantoo Baboo lived under the East India Company
He saved enough money to rent a jackfruit tree for a year
He had to live under that tree to stop people from stealing his jackfruit
He turned that into a business empire that survives today
Baboo's descendant (who'd written about Baboo) contacted my Lady friend's late husband (a month after I was born) because he (the husband) was writing a history of the EIC
Sir & Lady met Baboo Jr every year in Marlborough until Sir died
She's going to lend me his book
Is it too much to hope the ERG might itself disband soon?
She didn't mind at all that I'd googled her; she was amazed (and a bit pleased) that she could be found
I find some elements of the Conservative Party behind Sunak absolutely repellent - I also think in the interests of democracy the "Natural Party of Government" shouldn't be the perpetual Party of Government and periodic changes of governing party are beneficial.
Some people certainly wish to extend their lives as long as possible irrespective of the quality of their life, others don't. We spend increasing billions on keeping people alive who actually would prefer not to be because they have no real quality of life. Most of my peers (I'm mid 70s) live in dread of losing their independence/ mind and spending their final years in misery stuck in a care home
We have the ludicrous situation at present in the UK that suicide is legal but it is extremely difficult to access the means to end your own life peacefully and with dignity.
I predict that within the next few decades individuals will have secured the right to choose to die on their own terms at a time of their own choosing..
Seems to be an IT glitch - on the main page the graph is several days old. But if you then click on the graph itself you get the up to date version.
Average line now showing Lab fall as well as Con rise.
Latest average line: Lab 45.5, Con 28.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#/media/File:Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election_after_2019_(LOESS).svg