So are the CON MPs on the committee going to back Johnson? – politicalbetting.com

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So are the CON MPs on the committee going to back Johnson? – politicalbetting.com

What a very strange day and I personally cannot work out what is going to happen.

Read the full story here

MattW

1st.

Somehow.

TheScreamingEagles

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

DavidL

Been working all day so missed all of the "excitement". Oh well, I am sure I will cope, somehow.

TheScreamingEagles

DavidL said:

Been working all day so missed all of the "excitement". Oh well, I am sure I will cope, somehow.

Have you ever dealt with a four/five year old whose hands and face are covered with chocolate who then spend the next 4 hours denying they haven't eaten the missing sweeties?

That's what watching Boris Johnson today was like.

TheScreamingEagles

@DavidL, the other excitement was seeing Lord Pannick's eyes, they twitched so many times when Boris Johnson talked bollocks.

At times I thought Rudy Giuliani and not Lord Pannick advised Boris Johnson today.

FrankBooth

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

One thing I would say in defence of CGT being generally lower than income taxes is that gains are not the same thing as income. What I'm less on clear is how people go abut disguising their income as gains in order to reduce their tax bill.

We hire expensive accountants and lawyers who come up with very good tax minimisation strategies.

Yeah but how do they actually do it? Set up a company, pay themselves through it and then sell it? To whom, exactly?

Pagan2

challenge to all parties...allow people to vote for none of the above....I suspect turnout would go up and none of the above would win a lot of constituencies

Mexicanpete

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

Costa and Jenkin seemed rather hostile, Walker less so, but hasn't he been an earlier critic?

If Johnson doesn't get the spanking he deserves, I suspect the voters will, at least in the short term, hurt the Tories.

I know I am a Johnson cynic, as my PB off-topics demonstrate, but today Johnson was an utter disgrace.

Casino_Royale

Johnson isn't coming back.

We have Sunak all the way to the election now.

ThomasNashe

Doubt it. Question is whether or not he gets suspended, or just reprimanded.

TheScreamingEagles

FrankBooth said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

One thing I would say in defence of CGT being generally lower than income taxes is that gains are not the same thing as income. What I'm less on clear is how people go abut disguising their income as gains in order to reduce their tax bill.

We hire expensive accountants and lawyers who come up with very good tax minimisation strategies.

Yeah but how do they actually do it? Set up a company, pay themselves through it and then sell it? To whom, exactly?

Depends on what your end goal is.

My ultimate strategy is to make sure my kids are well looked after for life.

Their only blood relatives around are me and my parents who are approaching their 70s.

ThomasNashe

Pagan2 said:

challenge to all parties...allow people to vote for none of the above....I suspect turnout would go up and none of the above would win a lot of constituencies

‘They’re all as bad as each other’ is the last desperate attempt to get Johnson off the hook. No, they’re not all as bad as each other.

FF43

Conservatives seem to be able to turn on their previous great leader, pretend the fact he was their leader and our prime minister has nothing to do with them. While maintaining their massive sense of entitlement throughout.

It's genuinely impressive.

Mexicanpete

TheScreamingEagles said:

@DavidL, the other excitement was seeing Lord Pannick's eyes, they twitched so many times when Boris Johnson talked bollocks.

At times I thought Rudy Giuliani and not Lord Pannick advised Boris Johnson today.

They twitched continuously for over 3 hours, with just the two voting breaks for respite?

pm215

Pagan2 said:

challenge to all parties...allow people to vote for none of the above....I suspect turnout would go up and none of the above would win a lot of constituencies

What do you propose should happen when "none of the above" wins? Would it be a 'reopen nominations' ?

stodge

Pagan2 said:

challenge to all parties...allow people to vote for none of the above....I suspect turnout would go up and none of the above would win a lot of constituencies

I'd be happy with that as long as voting was made compulsory.

Second point, if, in any constituency, NOTA gets most votes, what then?

Pagan2

ThomasNashe said:

Pagan2 said:

challenge to all parties...allow people to vote for none of the above....I suspect turnout would go up and none of the above would win a lot of constituencies

‘They’re all as bad as each other’ is the last desperate attempt to get Johnson off the hook. No, they’re not all as bad as each other.

I don't give a shit about johnson I detest the man so fuck off

Big_G_NorthWales

Mexicanpete said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

Costa and Jenkin seemed rather hostile, Walker less so, but hasn't he been an earlier critic?

If Johnson doesn't get the spanking he deserves, I suspect the voters will, at least in the short term, hurt the Tories.

I know I am a Johnson cynic, as my PB off-topics demonstrate, but today Johnson was an utter disgrace.

Having listened to the whole hearing I simply cannot see any of the conservative mps backing Johnson

I expect a unanimous decision of guilty and a real possibility of a recall petition

Mexicanpete

Casino_Royale said:

Johnson isn't coming back.

We have Sunak all the way to the election now.

Has anyone told Johnson? If they have, did he listen?

JosiasJessop

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

Johnson isn't coming back.

We have Sunak all the way to the election now.

Has anyone told Johnson? If they have, did he listen?

If someone told Johnson and he listened, would he care?

Pagan2

pm215 said:

Pagan2 said:

challenge to all parties...allow people to vote for none of the above....I suspect turnout would go up and none of the above would win a lot of constituencies

What do you propose should happen when "none of the above" wins? Would it be a 'reopen nominations' ?

No 5 glorious years of no new policies, just carry on as we were.....then just maybe next time political parties might produce policies that will get them elected

Big_G_NorthWales

Qatar world record bid for Man Utd and is apparently the best bid

HYUFD

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

TheScreamingEagles

In excellent news, it appears the final season of Succession is the dog's dangly bits.

https://www.empireonline.com/tv/reviews/succession-season-4/

TheScreamingEagles

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

Pure Trumpism then eh?

You must be really proud!

SeaShantyIrish2

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

Re: Costa, toward the end of his questioning, he asked Johnson if what had happened was "outrageous" (IIRC) which, as was pointed toward end of previous thread, COULD be a potential out for BJ.

Along lines of, his actions were outrageous, but for the reason that {fill in the blank} they do NOT rise to level of removal.

Big_G_NorthWales

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

Blackmail now - desperate stuff

DavidL

TheScreamingEagles said:

DavidL said:

Been working all day so missed all of the "excitement". Oh well, I am sure I will cope, somehow.

Have you ever dealt with a four/five year old whose hands and face are covered with chocolate who then spend the next 4 hours denying they haven't eaten the missing sweeties?

That's what watching Boris Johnson today was like.

Got the chocolate covered T shirt for that one.

Mexicanpete

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

If Johnson is not properly censured there will be a national outrage. I am not sure you understand this.

Benpointer

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

One thing I would say in defence of CGT being generally lower than income taxes is that gains are not the same thing as income. What I'm less on clear is how people go abut disguising their income as gains in order to reduce their tax bill.

We hire expensive accountants and lawyers who come up with very good tax minimisation strategies.

Yeah but how do they actually do it? Set up a company, pay themselves through it and then sell it? To whom, exactly?

Depends on what your end goal is.

My ultimate strategy is to make sure my kids are well looked after for life.

Their only blood relatives around are me and my parents who are approaching their 70s.

Whilst it's instinctive to wish to ensure one's offspring 'are well looked after for life', wouldn't it be better for them, for society, and for the world at large if they looked after themselves, made their way in life on their own merits, sank or swam entirely by their own efforts?

DavidL

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

Costa and Jenkin seemed rather hostile, Walker less so, but hasn't he been an earlier critic?

If Johnson doesn't get the spanking he deserves, I suspect the voters will, at least in the short term, hurt the Tories.

I know I am a Johnson cynic, as my PB off-topics demonstrate, but today Johnson was an utter disgrace.

Having listened to the whole hearing I simply cannot see any of the conservative mps backing Johnson

I expect a unanimous decision of guilty and a real possibility of a recall petition

You need to get out more.

Big_G_NorthWales

DavidL said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

Costa and Jenkin seemed rather hostile, Walker less so, but hasn't he been an earlier critic?

If Johnson doesn't get the spanking he deserves, I suspect the voters will, at least in the short term, hurt the Tories.

I know I am a Johnson cynic, as my PB off-topics demonstrate, but today Johnson was an utter disgrace.

Having listened to the whole hearing I simply cannot see any of the conservative mps backing Johnson

I expect a unanimous decision of guilty and a real possibility of a recall petition

You need to get out more.

To clarify my comment , I meant the 4 conservatives on the committee

DavidL

TheScreamingEagles said:

@DavidL, the other excitement was seeing Lord Pannick's eyes, they twitched so many times when Boris Johnson talked bollocks.

At times I thought Rudy Giuliani and not Lord Pannick advised Boris Johnson today.

Lord Pannick just thinks of the money. His eyes are not twitching, its his charging meter.

DavidL

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

Costa and Jenkin seemed rather hostile, Walker less so, but hasn't he been an earlier critic?

If Johnson doesn't get the spanking he deserves, I suspect the voters will, at least in the short term, hurt the Tories.

I know I am a Johnson cynic, as my PB off-topics demonstrate, but today Johnson was an utter disgrace.

Having listened to the whole hearing I simply cannot see any of the conservative mps backing Johnson

I expect a unanimous decision of guilty and a real possibility of a recall petition

You need to get out more.

To clarify my comment , I meant the 4 conservatives on the committee

To clarify mine, you listened to this crud for 3 hours??

Big_G_NorthWales

DavidL said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

Costa and Jenkin seemed rather hostile, Walker less so, but hasn't he been an earlier critic?

If Johnson doesn't get the spanking he deserves, I suspect the voters will, at least in the short term, hurt the Tories.

I know I am a Johnson cynic, as my PB off-topics demonstrate, but today Johnson was an utter disgrace.

Having listened to the whole hearing I simply cannot see any of the conservative mps backing Johnson

I expect a unanimous decision of guilty and a real possibility of a recall petition

You need to get out more.

To clarify my comment , I meant the 4 conservatives on the committee

To clarify mine, you listened to this crud for 3 hours??

Yes

HYUFD

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

If Johnson is not properly censured there will be a national outrage. I am not sure you understand this.

There will be a national outrage from people not voting Conservative or RefUK but Tory MPs don't care about them as they have near zero chance of voting Conservative at the next general election anyway and they don't form the membership of their local Conservative Association who will decide whether or not to reselect them

Stuartinromford

JosiasJessop said:

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

Johnson isn't coming back.

We have Sunak all the way to the election now.

Has anyone told Johnson? If they have, did he listen?

If someone told Johnson and he listened, would he care?

One plausible scenario is that Boris becomes the exiled claimant to the Crown of Ruritania. Whilst most of us don't want to hear from him ever again, there is still a minority for whom the magic holds. Enough courtiers and enough rich backers to rub sholders with the old fool, and who knows... maybe one day, there will be a Glorious Restoration...

Almost anyone else could be persuaded to keep quiet and sound loyal, or else. But I don't think BoJo is up for that.

TheScreamingEagles

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

One thing I would say in defence of CGT being generally lower than income taxes is that gains are not the same thing as income. What I'm less on clear is how people go abut disguising their income as gains in order to reduce their tax bill.

We hire expensive accountants and lawyers who come up with very good tax minimisation strategies.

Yeah but how do they actually do it? Set up a company, pay themselves through it and then sell it? To whom, exactly?

Depends on what your end goal is.

My ultimate strategy is to make sure my kids are well looked after for life.

Their only blood relatives around are me and my parents who are approaching their 70s.

Whilst it's instinctive to wish to ensure one's offspring 'are well looked after for life', wouldn't it be better for them, for society, and for the world at large if they looked after themselves, made their way in life on their own merits, sank or swam entirely by their own efforts?

I've told them what I was told as a child, work hard at school and university and you can achieve anything.

Unlike me, they are going to end up with at least £50k worth of debts just to go to university.

Even if they become successful in their education and occupations, they are unlikely to be able to buy decent houses, which is why I've bought them houses now.

I just want them to have the opportunities that I had, which was given to me by parents who wanted nothing but the best for me.

Pagan2

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

One thing I would say in defence of CGT being generally lower than income taxes is that gains are not the same thing as income. What I'm less on clear is how people go abut disguising their income as gains in order to reduce their tax bill.

We hire expensive accountants and lawyers who come up with very good tax minimisation strategies.

Yeah but how do they actually do it? Set up a company, pay themselves through it and then sell it? To whom, exactly?

Depends on what your end goal is.

My ultimate strategy is to make sure my kids are well looked after for life.

Their only blood relatives around are me and my parents who are approaching their 70s.

Whilst it's instinctive to wish to ensure one's offspring 'are well looked after for life', wouldn't it be better for them, for society, and for the world at large if they looked after themselves, made their way in life on their own merits, sank or swam entirely by their own efforts?

This is where the left goes wrong, they assume fairness trumps human nature. At the same time they will give their offspring a legup. (cf diane abbot and private schooling). You don't believe in a legup then fine but lead by example

Sunil_Prasannan

I don't get the last sentence in the thread header:

"[T]he possibility of a recall petition in his constituency which could lead to him sitting to become an MP."

Sitting to become an MP?

HYUFD

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

Pure Trumpism then eh?

You must be really proud!

Labour kept Corbyn as their leader for a full 5 years despite the anti semitism festering in Labour at that time, Johnson was only elected Conservative leader less than 4 years ago and is no longer in that post.

So we don't need any lectures from Labour supporters on here thanks

williamglenn

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

One thing I would say in defence of CGT being generally lower than income taxes is that gains are not the same thing as income. What I'm less on clear is how people go abut disguising their income as gains in order to reduce their tax bill.

We hire expensive accountants and lawyers who come up with very good tax minimisation strategies.

Yeah but how do they actually do it? Set up a company, pay themselves through it and then sell it? To whom, exactly?

Depends on what your end goal is.

My ultimate strategy is to make sure my kids are well looked after for life.

Their only blood relatives around are me and my parents who are approaching their 70s.

Whilst it's instinctive to wish to ensure one's offspring 'are well looked after for life', wouldn't it be better for them, for society, and for the world at large if they looked after themselves, made their way in life on their own merits, sank or swam entirely by their own efforts?

Destroy their documents and drop them off on the French coast?

Big_G_NorthWales

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

If Johnson is not properly censured there will be a national outrage. I am not sure you understand this.

There will be a national outrage from people not voting Conservative or RefUK but Tory MPs don't care about them as they have near zero chance of voting Conservative at the next general election anyway and they don't form the membership of their local Conservative Association who will decide whether or not to reselect them

There will be national rage from this conservative supporter, and your descent into attempts of blackmail just affirms you are still very much in Johnson's camp

TheScreamingEagles

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

Pure Trumpism then eh?

You must be really proud!

Labour kept Corbyn as their leader for a full 5 years despite the anti semitism festering in Labour at that time, Johnson was only elected Conservative leader less than 4 years ago and is no longer in that post.

So we don't need any lectures from Labour supporters on here thanks

I'm not a Labour supporter, I'm a member of the Tory Party.

Mexicanpete

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

Re: Costa, toward the end of his questioning, he asked Johnson if what had happened was "outrageous" (IIRC) which, as was pointed toward end of previous thread, COULD be a potential out for BJ.

Along lines of, his actions were outrageous, but for the reason that {fill in the blank} they do NOT rise to level of removal.

Recklessly misleading Parliament is one thing, but recklessly misleading Parliament on 2, 3, 4 and 5 occasions is quite another.

ThomasNashe

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

Pure Trumpism then eh?

You must be really proud!

Labour kept Corbyn as their leader for a full 5 years despite the anti semitism festering in Labour at that time, Johnson was only elected Conservative leader less than 4 years ago and is no longer in that post.

So we don't need any lectures from Labour supporters on here thanks

TSE supports Labour? Hold the front page.

HYUFD

TheScreamingEagles said:

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

One thing I would say in defence of CGT being generally lower than income taxes is that gains are not the same thing as income. What I'm less on clear is how people go abut disguising their income as gains in order to reduce their tax bill.

We hire expensive accountants and lawyers who come up with very good tax minimisation strategies.

Yeah but how do they actually do it? Set up a company, pay themselves through it and then sell it? To whom, exactly?

Depends on what your end goal is.

My ultimate strategy is to make sure my kids are well looked after for life.

Their only blood relatives around are me and my parents who are approaching their 70s.

Whilst it's instinctive to wish to ensure one's offspring 'are well looked after for life', wouldn't it be better for them, for society, and for the world at large if they looked after themselves, made their way in life on their own merits, sank or swam entirely by their own efforts?

I've told them what I was told as a child, work hard at school and university and you can achieve anything.

Unlike me, they are going to end up with at least £50k worth of debts just to go to university.

Even if they become successful in their education and occupations, they are unlikely to be able to buy decent houses, which is why I've bought them houses now.

I just want them to have the opportunities that I had, which was given to me by parents who wanted nothing but the best for me.

I believe your parents also helped you buy your first property, so commendable you want to give them the same opportunity.

Despite your recent drift to the LDs your support for inheritance shows you still have some true Tory values after all TSE!

Pagan2

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

If Johnson is not properly censured there will be a national outrage. I am not sure you understand this.

There will be a national outrage from people not voting Conservative or RefUK but Tory MPs don't care about them as they have near zero chance of voting Conservative at the next general election anyway and they don't form the membership of their local Conservative Association who will decide whether or not to reselect them

There will be national rage from this conservative supporter, and your descent into attempts of blackmail just affirms you are still very much in Johnson's camp

HYUFD believes we owe his party a vote...he will learn otherwise because his party is a pile of shite built on a foundation of shite

Sunil_Prasannan

ThomasNashe said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

Pure Trumpism then eh?

You must be really proud!

Labour kept Corbyn as their leader for a full 5 years despite the anti semitism festering in Labour at that time, Johnson was only elected Conservative leader less than 4 years ago and is no longer in that post.

So we don't need any lectures from Labour supporters on here thanks

TSE supports Labour? Hold the front page.

PB Labour Fans are the new PB Tories!

ThomasNashe

Sunil_Prasannan said:

ThomasNashe said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

Pure Trumpism then eh?

You must be really proud!

Labour kept Corbyn as their leader for a full 5 years despite the anti semitism festering in Labour at that time, Johnson was only elected Conservative leader less than 4 years ago and is no longer in that post.

So we don't need any lectures from Labour supporters on here thanks

TSE supports Labour? Hold the front page.

PB Labour Fans are the new PB Tories!

Or SKS please explain.

HYUFD

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

One thing I would say in defence of CGT being generally lower than income taxes is that gains are not the same thing as income. What I'm less on clear is how people go abut disguising their income as gains in order to reduce their tax bill.

We hire expensive accountants and lawyers who come up with very good tax minimisation strategies.

Yeah but how do they actually do it? Set up a company, pay themselves through it and then sell it? To whom, exactly?

Depends on what your end goal is.

My ultimate strategy is to make sure my kids are well looked after for life.

Their only blood relatives around are me and my parents who are approaching their 70s.

Whilst it's instinctive to wish to ensure one's offspring 'are well looked after for life', wouldn't it be better for them, for society, and for the world at large if they looked after themselves, made their way in life on their own merits, sank or swam entirely by their own efforts?

If you wanted to do that we would have no welfare state and no public housing either. Fortunately we are not a purely laissez faire libertarian capitalist society, traditional Tories like me see a role for the family and some role for the state, Labour supporters see a strong role for the state

Benpointer

TheScreamingEagles said:

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

One thing I would say in defence of CGT being generally lower than income taxes is that gains are not the same thing as income. What I'm less on clear is how people go abut disguising their income as gains in order to reduce their tax bill.

We hire expensive accountants and lawyers who come up with very good tax minimisation strategies.

Yeah but how do they actually do it? Set up a company, pay themselves through it and then sell it? To whom, exactly?

Depends on what your end goal is.

My ultimate strategy is to make sure my kids are well looked after for life.

Their only blood relatives around are me and my parents who are approaching their 70s.

Whilst it's instinctive to wish to ensure one's offspring 'are well looked after for life', wouldn't it be better for them, for society, and for the world at large if they looked after themselves, made their way in life on their own merits, sank or swam entirely by their own efforts?

I've told them what I was told as a child, work hard at school and university and you can achieve anything.

Unlike me, they are going to end up with at least £50k worth of debts just to go to university.

Even if they become successful in their education and occupations, they are unlikely to be able to buy decent houses, which is why I've bought them houses now.

I just want them to have the opportunities that I had, which was given to me by parents who wanted nothing but the best for me.

Yes, fair enough. And thank you for not taking offence at my question.

I should confess two facts which make me a biased judge:
1. I had f*ck-all help from my parents because they were in no position to help me.
2. We have no kids, so Mrs P. and I aim to spend all the little wealth we have accumulated before we shuffle off this mortal coil.
3. I had to endure working with some total tossers who were occupying roles they were unsuited for simply because they'd ridden a wave of inherited privilege. Not good for their colleagues, the company, the country, or indeed themselves really.

(Ok that's three facts - buy two get one free.)

biggles

TheScreamingEagles said:

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

One thing I would say in defence of CGT being generally lower than income taxes is that gains are not the same thing as income. What I'm less on clear is how people go abut disguising their income as gains in order to reduce their tax bill.

We hire expensive accountants and lawyers who come up with very good tax minimisation strategies.

Yeah but how do they actually do it? Set up a company, pay themselves through it and then sell it? To whom, exactly?

Depends on what your end goal is.

My ultimate strategy is to make sure my kids are well looked after for life.

Their only blood relatives around are me and my parents who are approaching their 70s.

Whilst it's instinctive to wish to ensure one's offspring 'are well looked after for life', wouldn't it be better for them, for society, and for the world at large if they looked after themselves, made their way in life on their own merits, sank or swam entirely by their own efforts?

I've told them what I was told as a child, work hard at school and university and you can achieve anything.

Unlike me, they are going to end up with at least £50k worth of debts just to go to university.

Even if they become successful in their education and occupations, they are unlikely to be able to buy decent houses, which is why I've bought them houses now.

I just want them to have the opportunities that I had, which was given to me by parents who wanted nothing but the best for me.

“Work hard at school and university and you can achieve anything”.

This is sadly not true. I coasted through school and university, had my student loan paid off by 25 and get paid pretty well paid despite never working hard at all. On the other hand some people have more than one job, work very hard indeed, and get paid very little.

IQ and luck are the most important factors, as well as family connections for some (not me), which is why we redistribute wealth.

DougSeal

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

Pure Trumpism then eh?

You must be really proud!

Labour kept Corbyn as their leader for a full 5 years despite the anti semitism festering in Labour at that time, Johnson was only elected Conservative leader less than 4 years ago and is no longer in that post.

So we don't need any lectures from Labour supporters on here thanks

No. I really think you do.

DougSeal

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

Pure Trumpism then eh?

You must be really proud!

Labour kept Corbyn as their leader for a full 5 years despite the anti semitism festering in Labour at that time, Johnson was only elected Conservative leader less than 4 years ago and is no longer in that post.

So we don't need any lectures from Labour supporters on here thanks

I'm not a Labour supporter, I'm a member of the Tory Party.

HYUFD is the only true Tory. We’ve learned that time and time again because he told
is so.

kle4

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

That is actually a rather direct attack on their integrity. You think so little of them that they won't discharge their duty as Committee members for any reason other than personal political survival?

ThomasNashe

biggles said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

One thing I would say in defence of CGT being generally lower than income taxes is that gains are not the same thing as income. What I'm less on clear is how people go abut disguising their income as gains in order to reduce their tax bill.

We hire expensive accountants and lawyers who come up with very good tax minimisation strategies.

Yeah but how do they actually do it? Set up a company, pay themselves through it and then sell it? To whom, exactly?

Depends on what your end goal is.

My ultimate strategy is to make sure my kids are well looked after for life.

Their only blood relatives around are me and my parents who are approaching their 70s.

Whilst it's instinctive to wish to ensure one's offspring 'are well looked after for life', wouldn't it be better for them, for society, and for the world at large if they looked after themselves, made their way in life on their own merits, sank or swam entirely by their own efforts?

I've told them what I was told as a child, work hard at school and university and you can achieve anything.

Unlike me, they are going to end up with at least £50k worth of debts just to go to university.

Even if they become successful in their education and occupations, they are unlikely to be able to buy decent houses, which is why I've bought them houses now.

I just want them to have the opportunities that I had, which was given to me by parents who wanted nothing but the best for me.

“Work hard at school and university and you can achieve anything”.

This is sadly not true. I coasted through school and university, had my student loan paid off by 25 and get paid pretty well paid despite never working hard at all. On the other hand some people have more than one job, work very hard indeed, and get paid very little.

IQ and luck are the most important factors, as well as family connections for some (not me), which is why we redistribute wealth.

Politicians all seem to want to help hard-working families. It’s about time someone stood up for lazy individuals.

HYUFD

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

If Johnson is not properly censured there will be a national outrage. I am not sure you understand this.

There will be a national outrage from people not voting Conservative or RefUK but Tory MPs don't care about them as they have near zero chance of voting Conservative at the next general election anyway and they don't form the membership of their local Conservative Association who will decide whether or not to reselect them

There will be national rage from this conservative supporter, and your descent into attempts of blackmail just affirms you are still very much in Johnson's camp

You voted Blair in 1997 and 2001 and have wavered away from the Conservatives pre Rishi anyway. The Conservatives would lose more votes to RefUK enabling a recall of Boris than they would lose to LAB or the LDs not doing so. At most a few days to a week suspension maximum

Big_G_NorthWales

DougSeal said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

Pure Trumpism then eh?

You must be really proud!

Labour kept Corbyn as their leader for a full 5 years despite the anti semitism festering in Labour at that time, Johnson was only elected Conservative leader less than 4 years ago and is no longer in that post.

So we don't need any lectures from Labour supporters on here thanks

I'm not a Labour supporter, I'm a member of the Tory Party.

HYUFD is the only true Tory. We’ve learned that time and time again because he told
is so.

And that is tainted by his vote for Plaid Cymru

Sunil_Prasannan

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

Pure Trumpism then eh?

You must be really proud!

Labour kept Corbyn as their leader for a full 5 years despite the anti semitism festering in Labour at that time, Johnson was only elected Conservative leader less than 4 years ago and is no longer in that post.

So we don't need any lectures from Labour supporters on here thanks

I'm not a Labour supporter, I'm a member of the Tory Party.

"I am not a number, I is a free man!"

pm215

Pagan2 said:

pm215 said:

Pagan2 said:

challenge to all parties...allow people to vote for none of the above....I suspect turnout would go up and none of the above would win a lot of constituencies

What do you propose should happen when "none of the above" wins? Would it be a 'reopen nominations' ?

No 5 glorious years of no new policies, just carry on as we were.....then just maybe next time political parties might produce policies that will get them elected

So rule by the civil service until the next election? As an instinctive technocrat I could get on board with that :-)

biggles

ThomasNashe said:

biggles said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

One thing I would say in defence of CGT being generally lower than income taxes is that gains are not the same thing as income. What I'm less on clear is how people go abut disguising their income as gains in order to reduce their tax bill.

We hire expensive accountants and lawyers who come up with very good tax minimisation strategies.

Yeah but how do they actually do it? Set up a company, pay themselves through it and then sell it? To whom, exactly?

Depends on what your end goal is.

My ultimate strategy is to make sure my kids are well looked after for life.

Their only blood relatives around are me and my parents who are approaching their 70s.

Whilst it's instinctive to wish to ensure one's offspring 'are well looked after for life', wouldn't it be better for them, for society, and for the world at large if they looked after themselves, made their way in life on their own merits, sank or swam entirely by their own efforts?

I've told them what I was told as a child, work hard at school and university and you can achieve anything.

Unlike me, they are going to end up with at least £50k worth of debts just to go to university.

Even if they become successful in their education and occupations, they are unlikely to be able to buy decent houses, which is why I've bought them houses now.

I just want them to have the opportunities that I had, which was given to me by parents who wanted nothing but the best for me.

“Work hard at school and university and you can achieve anything”.

This is sadly not true. I coasted through school and university, had my student loan paid off by 25 and get paid pretty well paid despite never working hard at all. On the other hand some people have more than one job, work very hard indeed, and get paid very little.

IQ and luck are the most important factors, as well as family connections for some (not me), which is why we redistribute wealth.

Politicians all seem to want to help hard-working families. It’s about time someone stood up for lazy individuals.

Too right!

I actually take offence at this “hard workers” stuff. I am lazy and proud of it. I have a market value at 60% effort which provides a pretty level of income. Not every aspires to work 22 hours a day and be rich.

TheScreamingEagles

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

One thing I would say in defence of CGT being generally lower than income taxes is that gains are not the same thing as income. What I'm less on clear is how people go abut disguising their income as gains in order to reduce their tax bill.

We hire expensive accountants and lawyers who come up with very good tax minimisation strategies.

Yeah but how do they actually do it? Set up a company, pay themselves through it and then sell it? To whom, exactly?

Depends on what your end goal is.

My ultimate strategy is to make sure my kids are well looked after for life.

Their only blood relatives around are me and my parents who are approaching their 70s.

Whilst it's instinctive to wish to ensure one's offspring 'are well looked after for life', wouldn't it be better for them, for society, and for the world at large if they looked after themselves, made their way in life on their own merits, sank or swam entirely by their own efforts?

I've told them what I was told as a child, work hard at school and university and you can achieve anything.

Unlike me, they are going to end up with at least £50k worth of debts just to go to university.

Even if they become successful in their education and occupations, they are unlikely to be able to buy decent houses, which is why I've bought them houses now.

I just want them to have the opportunities that I had, which was given to me by parents who wanted nothing but the best for me.

Yes, fair enough. And thank you for not taking offence at my question.

I should confess two facts which make me a biased judge:
1. I had f*ck-all help from my parents because they were in no position to help me.
2. We have no kids, so Mrs P. and I aim to spend all the little wealth we have accumulated before we shuffle off this mortal coil.
3. I had to endure working with some total tossers who were occupying roles they were unsuited for simply because they'd ridden a wave of inherited privilege. Not good for their colleagues, the company, the country, or indeed themselves really.

(Ok that's three facts - buy two get one free.)

I am glad I was fortunate that my parents could afford to give me a good education, my mum and dad (with grandparents) got me onto the London property market in 2000 when I was 21, that was another fortunate thing that happened to me.

I feel guilty that my parents made sacrifices for me. The first brand new car my father ever bought was the car he bought me when I was 17 and passed my driving test.

They come from a culture that views debt (other than a mortgage) as the eighth deadliest sin and that you have failed at life if you don't give your kids better than you had.

Some of that has rubbed off on me.

Mexicanpete

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

If Johnson is not properly censured there will be a national outrage. I am not sure you understand this.

There will be a national outrage from people not voting Conservative or RefUK but Tory MPs don't care about them as they have near zero chance of voting Conservative at the next general election anyway and they don't form the membership of their local Conservative Association who will decide whether or not to reselect them

There will be national rage from this conservative supporter, and your descent into attempts of blackmail just affirms you are still very much in Johnson's camp

You voted Blair in 1997 and 2001 and have wavered away from the Conservatives pre Rishi anyway. The Conservatives would lose more votes to RefUK enabling a recall of Boris than they would lose to LAB or the LDs not doing so. At most a few days to a week suspension maximum

Did you not find Johnson's circus act this afternoon an utter disgrace?

Sunil_Prasannan

ThomasNashe said:

biggles said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Benpointer said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FrankBooth said:

One thing I would say in defence of CGT being generally lower than income taxes is that gains are not the same thing as income. What I'm less on clear is how people go abut disguising their income as gains in order to reduce their tax bill.

We hire expensive accountants and lawyers who come up with very good tax minimisation strategies.

Yeah but how do they actually do it? Set up a company, pay themselves through it and then sell it? To whom, exactly?

Depends on what your end goal is.

My ultimate strategy is to make sure my kids are well looked after for life.

Their only blood relatives around are me and my parents who are approaching their 70s.

Whilst it's instinctive to wish to ensure one's offspring 'are well looked after for life', wouldn't it be better for them, for society, and for the world at large if they looked after themselves, made their way in life on their own merits, sank or swam entirely by their own efforts?

I've told them what I was told as a child, work hard at school and university and you can achieve anything.

Unlike me, they are going to end up with at least £50k worth of debts just to go to university.

Even if they become successful in their education and occupations, they are unlikely to be able to buy decent houses, which is why I've bought them houses now.

I just want them to have the opportunities that I had, which was given to me by parents who wanted nothing but the best for me.

“Work hard at school and university and you can achieve anything”.

This is sadly not true. I coasted through school and university, had my student loan paid off by 25 and get paid pretty well paid despite never working hard at all. On the other hand some people have more than one job, work very hard indeed, and get paid very little.

IQ and luck are the most important factors, as well as family connections for some (not me), which is why we redistribute wealth.

Politicians all seem to want to help hard-working families. It’s about time someone stood up for lazy individuals.

"How about the right NOT to work?" - Ali G.

Big_G_NorthWales

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

If Johnson is not properly censured there will be a national outrage. I am not sure you understand this.

There will be a national outrage from people not voting Conservative or RefUK but Tory MPs don't care about them as they have near zero chance of voting Conservative at the next general election anyway and they don't form the membership of their local Conservative Association who will decide whether or not to reselect them

There will be national rage from this conservative supporter, and your descent into attempts of blackmail just affirms you are still very much in Johnson's camp

You voted Blair in 1997 and 2001 and have wavered away from the Conservatives pre Rishi anyway. The Conservatives would lose more votes to RefUK enabling a recall of Boris than they would lose to LAB or the LDs not doing so. At most a few days to a week suspension maximum

You need to get out more and smell the coffee

felix

FF43 said:

Conservatives seem to be able to turn on their previous great leader, pretend the fact he was their leader and our prime minister has nothing to do with them. While maintaining their massive sense of entitlement throughout.

It's genuinely impressive.

Just like Labour with Corbyn. It's genuinely impressive...

MattW

I did quite approve of Harman's "Hangman's Noose for BJ" necklace.

Big_G_NorthWales

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

If Johnson is not properly censured there will be a national outrage. I am not sure you understand this.

There will be a national outrage from people not voting Conservative or RefUK but Tory MPs don't care about them as they have near zero chance of voting Conservative at the next general election anyway and they don't form the membership of their local Conservative Association who will decide whether or not to reselect them

There will be national rage from this conservative supporter, and your descent into attempts of blackmail just affirms you are still very much in Johnson's camp

You voted Blair in 1997 and 2001 and have wavered away from the Conservatives pre Rishi anyway. The Conservatives would lose more votes to RefUK enabling a recall of Boris than they would lose to LAB or the LDs not doing so. At most a few days to a week suspension maximum

Did you not find Johnson's circus act this afternoon an utter disgrace?

He just cannot move on from his devotion to Johnson despite suggesting he supports Sunak

biggles

FF43 said:

Conservatives seem to be able to turn on their previous great leader, pretend the fact he was their leader and our prime minister has nothing to do with them. While maintaining their massive sense of entitlement throughout.

It's genuinely impressive.

Well it’s worked for the Tory Party since Pitt the Younger.

Stuartinromford

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

If Johnson is not properly censured there will be a national outrage. I am not sure you understand this.

There will be a national outrage from people not voting Conservative or RefUK but Tory MPs don't care about them as they have near zero chance of voting Conservative at the next general election anyway and they don't form the membership of their local Conservative Association who will decide whether or not to reselect them

There will be national rage from this conservative supporter, and your descent into attempts of blackmail just affirms you are still very much in Johnson's camp

You voted Blair in 1997 and 2001 and have wavered away from the Conservatives pre Rishi anyway. The Conservatives would lose more votes to RefUK enabling a recall of Boris than they would lose to LAB or the LDs not doing so. At most a few days to a week suspension maximum

I'm not sure I agree, but you do highlight Sunak's dilemma. Part of the improvement in Conservative ratings has come about because Sunak has managed a neat triangulation of pragmatists and the Farage-curious. For every bit of sensible right-wing government (Windsor, for example) there has been a loudly-tossed bit of red meat to keep the less sensible on board (we will send to boat people somewhere, even if nowhere wants them). It's a good trick if you can do it, but it's going to be hard to keep it up until the election.

There is a risk of a Boris-fan backlash if he ceases to be an MP. But both his antics before the committee and the derisory ERG vote on Windsor make BoJo look less dangerous now than this morning.

HYUFD

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

If Johnson is not properly censured there will be a national outrage. I am not sure you understand this.

There will be a national outrage from people not voting Conservative or RefUK but Tory MPs don't care about them as they have near zero chance of voting Conservative at the next general election anyway and they don't form the membership of their local Conservative Association who will decide whether or not to reselect them

There will be national rage from this conservative supporter, and your descent into attempts of blackmail just affirms you are still very much in Johnson's camp

You voted Blair in 1997 and 2001 and have wavered away from the Conservatives pre Rishi anyway. The Conservatives would lose more votes to RefUK enabling a recall of Boris than they would lose to LAB or the LDs not doing so. At most a few days to a week suspension maximum

Did you not find Johnson's circus act this afternoon an utter disgrace?

He just cannot move on from his devotion to Johnson despite suggesting he supports Sunak

There would be civil war in the Conservative Party, deselections of Sunak loyalist MPs and defections of Conservative voters to RedUK if Boris is suspended for 10 days or more leading to a recall. As I said Tory MPs on the cttee will vote for a suspension for Boris of a week max

TheScreamingEagles

https://twitter.com/Simon_Craven/status/1638651676625100801/photo/1

algarkirk

Boris wasn't good. JRM on C4 news sounded defiant but strangely distant from reality this evening. Interviewer going through the motions but no-one thought it meant anything. As if for both of them their day in the sun is over.

This feels sad, as Boris has real genius, and it is incredible that he could not exercise a minimal moral discipline in order to keep the job he had craved. JRM seemed to have got on the wrong bus and stayed on after everyone else knew it was going to the wrong destination.

BTW, Owenpatersongate meant and means far more than Partygate in the long run. Politically the second is absurd. The first is sinister.

Who counts now right at the top now and soon? No-one would have guessed this at the end of 2019. Sunak, Starmer, Forbes, Hunt, Badenoch, Streeting. It could be much worse.

kle4

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/Simon_Craven/status/1638651676625100801/photo/1

Didn't he say it was essential for morale boosting purposes? In which case we could all have done anything we wanted, since it would have improved morale to not be locked down.

felix

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

If Johnson is not properly censured there will be a national outrage. I am not sure you understand this.

There will be a national outrage from people not voting Conservative or RefUK but Tory MPs don't care about them as they have near zero chance of voting Conservative at the next general election anyway and they don't form the membership of their local Conservative Association who will decide whether or not to reselect them

There will be national rage from this conservative supporter, and your descent into attempts of blackmail just affirms you are still very much in Johnson's camp

You voted Blair in 1997 and 2001 and have wavered away from the Conservatives pre Rishi anyway. The Conservatives would lose more votes to RefUK enabling a recall of Boris than they would lose to LAB or the LDs not doing so. At most a few days to a week suspension maximum

Did you not find Johnson's circus act this afternoon an utter disgrace?

He just cannot move on from his devotion to Johnson despite suggesting he supports Sunak

There would be civil war in the Conservative Party, deselections of Sunak loyalist MPs and defections of Conservative voters to RedUK if Boris is suspended for 10 days or more leading to a recall. As I said Tory MPs on the cttee will vote for a suspension for Boris of a week max

Gosh. What a load of old bollox! At times your finger is a long way from the pulse

ThomasNashe

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/Simon_Craven/status/1638651676625100801/photo/1

Sometimes, the parliamentary sketch just writes itself.

Big_G_NorthWales

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

If Johnson is not properly censured there will be a national outrage. I am not sure you understand this.

There will be a national outrage from people not voting Conservative or RefUK but Tory MPs don't care about them as they have near zero chance of voting Conservative at the next general election anyway and they don't form the membership of their local Conservative Association who will decide whether or not to reselect them

There will be national rage from this conservative supporter, and your descent into attempts of blackmail just affirms you are still very much in Johnson's camp

You voted Blair in 1997 and 2001 and have wavered away from the Conservatives pre Rishi anyway. The Conservatives would lose more votes to RefUK enabling a recall of Boris than they would lose to LAB or the LDs not doing so. At most a few days to a week suspension maximum

Did you not find Johnson's circus act this afternoon an utter disgrace?

He just cannot move on from his devotion to Johnson despite suggesting he supports Sunak

There would be civil war in the Conservative Party, deselections of Sunak loyalist MPs and defections of Conservative voters to RedUK if Boris is suspended for 10 days or more leading to a recall. As I said Tory MPs on the cttee will vote for a suspension for Boris of a week max

Your aggressive attitude is not doing you any favours and frankly you are an embarrassment to most of us who want a one nation conservative government with closer ties to Europe

Big_G_NorthWales

felix said:

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

If Johnson is not properly censured there will be a national outrage. I am not sure you understand this.

There will be a national outrage from people not voting Conservative or RefUK but Tory MPs don't care about them as they have near zero chance of voting Conservative at the next general election anyway and they don't form the membership of their local Conservative Association who will decide whether or not to reselect them

There will be national rage from this conservative supporter, and your descent into attempts of blackmail just affirms you are still very much in Johnson's camp

You voted Blair in 1997 and 2001 and have wavered away from the Conservatives pre Rishi anyway. The Conservatives would lose more votes to RefUK enabling a recall of Boris than they would lose to LAB or the LDs not doing so. At most a few days to a week suspension maximum

Did you not find Johnson's circus act this afternoon an utter disgrace?

He just cannot move on from his devotion to Johnson despite suggesting he supports Sunak

There would be civil war in the Conservative Party, deselections of Sunak loyalist MPs and defections of Conservative voters to RedUK if Boris is suspended for 10 days or more leading to a recall. As I said Tory MPs on the cttee will vote for a suspension for Boris of a week max

Gosh. What a load of old bollox! At times your finger is a long way from the pulse

It should be a long way from his keyboard

pm215

algarkirk said:

This feels sad, as Boris has real genius

Well, yeah, but it always felt more like a genius for getting elected than a genius for the actual job. It's an unfortunate failure mode for democracy that it tends to select more for those who can charm the electorate than for those who would be great in office...

Carnyx

pm215 said:

algarkirk said:

This feels sad, as Boris has real genius

Well, yeah, but it always felt more like a genius for getting elected than a genius for the actual job. It's an unfortunate failure mode for democracy that it tends to select more for those who can charm the electorate than for those who would be great in office...

The political equivalent of Dixon's *The psychology of military incompetence*.

algarkirk

Stuartinromford said:

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

If Johnson is not properly censured there will be a national outrage. I am not sure you understand this.

There will be a national outrage from people not voting Conservative or RefUK but Tory MPs don't care about them as they have near zero chance of voting Conservative at the next general election anyway and they don't form the membership of their local Conservative Association who will decide whether or not to reselect them

There will be national rage from this conservative supporter, and your descent into attempts of blackmail just affirms you are still very much in Johnson's camp

You voted Blair in 1997 and 2001 and have wavered away from the Conservatives pre Rishi anyway. The Conservatives would lose more votes to RefUK enabling a recall of Boris than they would lose to LAB or the LDs not doing so. At most a few days to a week suspension maximum

I'm not sure I agree, but you do highlight Sunak's dilemma. Part of the improvement in Conservative ratings has come about because Sunak has managed a neat triangulation of pragmatists and the Farage-curious. For every bit of sensible right-wing government (Windsor, for example) there has been a loudly-tossed bit of red meat to keep the less sensible on board (we will send to boat people somewhere, even if nowhere wants them). It's a good trick if you can do it, but it's going to be hard to keep it up until the election.

There is a risk of a Boris-fan backlash if he ceases to be an MP. But both his antics before the committee and the derisory ERG vote on Windsor make BoJo look less dangerous now than this morning.

About right. But, IMHO, the One Nation Tories now lost to the Cons will stay lost as long as meaningless, immoral and illegal nostrums are presented to us as policy. Sunak should be brave.

dr_spyn

Never upset an editor.

https://twitter.com/MetroUK/status/1638650683451899906

solarflare

algarkirk said:

Boris wasn't good. JRM on C4 news sounded defiant but strangely distant from reality this evening.

Soooo....business as usual then?

Tres

Anyway when's Sunak going to publish his actual tax return, rather than the accountant's letter he released today?

TheScreamingEagles

Well.

Big_G_NorthWales

Tres said:

Anyway when's Sunak going to publish his actual tax return, rather than the accountant's letter he released today?

I suspect the way this is going every mp is going to be required to publish their tax returns

solarflare

TheScreamingEagles said:

Well.

You don't think toads are great?

TheScreamingEagles

solarflare said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Well.

You don't think toads are great?

I didn't notice that, my focus was 'Are there Klingons on Uranus?'

PS - I love toads.

turbotubbs

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

If Johnson is not properly censured there will be a national outrage. I am not sure you understand this.

The censure is officially for misleading parliament, but the nation demands punishment the way he, and others (let’s be open, it wasn’t just Johnson) allowed No 10 staff to do things that were banned for everyone else in the country.
I’m still astonished and saddened that we refused to let spouses etc in to see dying husbands/wives. Yes it would have increased risk marginally. But the inhumanity of it.

RochdalePioneers

dr_spyn said:

Never upset an editor.

https://twitter.com/MetroUK/status/1638650683451899906

That Burger King advert...

dr_spyn

The Metro front page mocks Johnson in the advertising for The Whopper - no smoke without fire. Will be seen by bus and tube users in the morning.

https://twitter.com/MetroUK/status/1638650683451899906

Sunil_Prasannan

TheScreamingEagles said:

Well.

"Oh, my god! I SO cannot believe you said that!"

Luckyguy1983

I wonder how Boris really did today? I haven't seen the testimony, very busy day, and don't plan to. I hate cringey embarrassing things. Going by PB, those who were outraged with the barefaced lies were always going to be. Since there was no collapse and walk out, but also nobody saying 'he made a good point there', I'd say he did OK on the wicket he had.

HYUFD

algarkirk said:

Stuartinromford said:

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

If Johnson is not properly censured there will be a national outrage. I am not sure you understand this.

There will be a national outrage from people not voting Conservative or RefUK but Tory MPs don't care about them as they have near zero chance of voting Conservative at the next general election anyway and they don't form the membership of their local Conservative Association who will decide whether or not to reselect them

There will be national rage from this conservative supporter, and your descent into attempts of blackmail just affirms you are still very much in Johnson's camp

You voted Blair in 1997 and 2001 and have wavered away from the Conservatives pre Rishi anyway. The Conservatives would lose more votes to RefUK enabling a recall of Boris than they would lose to LAB or the LDs not doing so. At most a few days to a week suspension maximum

I'm not sure I agree, but you do highlight Sunak's dilemma. Part of the improvement in Conservative ratings has come about because Sunak has managed a neat triangulation of pragmatists and the Farage-curious. For every bit of sensible right-wing government (Windsor, for example) there has been a loudly-tossed bit of red meat to keep the less sensible on board (we will send to boat people somewhere, even if nowhere wants them). It's a good trick if you can do it, but it's going to be hard to keep it up until the election.

There is a risk of a Boris-fan backlash if he ceases to be an MP. But both his antics before the committee and the derisory ERG vote on Windsor make BoJo look less dangerous now than this morning.

About right. But, IMHO, the One Nation Tories now lost to the Cons will stay lost as long as meaningless, immoral and illegal nostrums are presented to us as policy. Sunak should be brave.

The number of so called 'One Nation Tories' who are not already still voting Tory and would switch from Labour or the LDs to the Conservatives if Boris was suspended for 10 days or more, or who would defect from the Tories if he was not can be counted on one hand.

The number of current Conservative voters and RefUK voters Rishi needs to win back however who would vote RefUK or stay home at the next general election if Boris was suspended for 10 days or more enabling a recall is much greater than those in the first paragraph

MarqueeMark

Sunil_Prasannan said:

I don't get the last sentence in the thread header:

"[T]he possibility of a recall petition in his constituency which could lead to him sitting to become an MP."

Sitting to become an MP?

Typo. Shitting to become an MP....

kle4

TheScreamingEagles said:

Well.

There's so much happening on that page I almost cannot take it.

Stuartinromford

algarkirk said:

Stuartinromford said:

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sir Bernard Jenkin will not.

I suspect Costa and Walker won't either.

The striking thing is how much the Tory MPs managed to make Johnson squirm today.

They will rap him on the knuckles but they won't vote to suspend him for fear of deselection by their local Conservative Associations

If Johnson is not properly censured there will be a national outrage. I am not sure you understand this.

There will be a national outrage from people not voting Conservative or RefUK but Tory MPs don't care about them as they have near zero chance of voting Conservative at the next general election anyway and they don't form the membership of their local Conservative Association who will decide whether or not to reselect them

There will be national rage from this conservative supporter, and your descent into attempts of blackmail just affirms you are still very much in Johnson's camp

You voted Blair in 1997 and 2001 and have wavered away from the Conservatives pre Rishi anyway. The Conservatives would lose more votes to RefUK enabling a recall of Boris than they would lose to LAB or the LDs not doing so. At most a few days to a week suspension maximum

I'm not sure I agree, but you do highlight Sunak's dilemma. Part of the improvement in Conservative ratings has come about because Sunak has managed a neat triangulation of pragmatists and the Farage-curious. For every bit of sensible right-wing government (Windsor, for example) there has been a loudly-tossed bit of red meat to keep the less sensible on board (we will send to boat people somewhere, even if nowhere wants them). It's a good trick if you can do it, but it's going to be hard to keep it up until the election.

There is a risk of a Boris-fan backlash if he ceases to be an MP. But both his antics before the committee and the derisory ERG vote on Windsor make BoJo look less dangerous now than this morning.

About right. But, IMHO, the One Nation Tories now lost to the Cons will stay lost as long as meaningless, immoral and illegal nostrums are presented to us as policy. Sunak should be brave.

As someone in that category, hard agree. But there's brave and there's stupid. And the amount of ferret-reversal needed to ditch the Braverman Doctrine is unlikely to be doable in government.

ydoethur

If the tweeted replies are typical then you wonder if he has actually stopped drinking since lockdown.

kle4

Luckyguy1983 said:

I wonder how Boris really did today? I haven't seen the testimony, very busy day, and don't plan to. I hate cringey embarrassing things. Going by PB, those who were outraged with the barefaced lies were always going to be. Since there was no collapse and walk out, but also nobody saying 'he made a good point there', I'd say he did OK on the wicket he had.

His position was pretty ridiculous, but he mostly seems to have managed to stick to the lines he wanted to take, which could be crucial in avoiding a 'knowingly' misleading situation, since they cannot look inside his head and if he maintains position the best they can do is talk about how he should have known better.