The majority of Conservative MPs will not vote to suspend Johnson, not least as it would see further leakage from the Tories to RefUK.
Plus of course Sue Gray who wrote the original report on Johnson's partygate breaches now works for Starmer
And thus the justifications of the MPs will go.
Boris apologised for the breaches she wrote about and yet they are actually arguing, in effect, that she must have made it all up somehow because she's Labour.
It does seem somewhat politically naive of Starmer, to have hired Gray before the enquiry into Johnson was complete. He’s giving the Tory MPs ammunition to get behind Johnson, when many of them might have been at best on the fence.
It's entirely possible Starmer does not have the best interests of the Conservative Party at heart.....
Some people say there are no benefits to Brexit. Well today I received my new health insurance card and it has been upgraded from mere European (EU, Swiss, Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein) to the far better and more aspirational Global (EU, Swiss). Not only that, but the card has not just one but two flags on, one of which is a hologram. Just imagine that!
Butler persisting with Ahmed. Tactically dubious, given the number of overs remaining to Woakes and Rashid, but good management showing faith in the new kid.
I'm guessing he didn't want to take him off after the way his last over ended - and it worked out fine.
Reintroducing Woakes even better. I applaud Buttler prioritising strategy over tactics.
Yeah, given that it's a dead rubber it's the perfect time to see what he can do, no real reason not to bowl him out.
Butler persisting with Ahmed. Tactically dubious, given the number of overs remaining to Woakes and Rashid, but good management showing faith in the new kid.
I'm guessing he didn't want to take him off after the way his last over ended - and it worked out fine.
Reintroducing Woakes even better. I applaud Buttler prioritising strategy over tactics.
Yeah, given that it's a dead rubber it's the perfect time to see what he can do, no real reason not to bowl him out.
Gets a wicket with his last ball.
No way are Bangladesh getting 100 from the last 10 overs!
Boris has three faults. He's corrupt, he's lazy and his judgement is poor. The first is forgiveable, the second is unfortunate, but the third makes him unfit to govern. He's not a details man and a PM doesn't need to be as long as he has judgement.
Brown was a details man, and it meant he couldn't see the wood for the trees. Boris can't even see the trees.
Boris has three faults. He's corrupt, he's lazy and his judgement is poor. The first is forgiveable, the second is unfortunate, but the third makes him unfit to govern. He's not a details man and a PM doesn't need to be as long as he has judgement.
Brown was a details man, and it meant he couldn't see the wood for the trees. Boris can't even see the trees.
Boris has three faults. He's corrupt, he's lazy and his judgement is poor. The first is forgiveable, the second is unfortunate, but the third makes him unfit to govern. He's not a details man and a PM doesn't need to be as long as he has judgement.
Brown was a details man, and it meant he couldn't see the wood for the trees. Boris can't even see the trees.
Boris strikes me as an underpants gnome. He has a vision for what he wants - the 'profit', and does random stuff to get him the power to achieve that (steals underpants). But he never actually works out the middle bit.
Phase 1: Become PM Phase 2: ? Phase 3: Make Britain Great Again!
Has Buttler been taking lessons from Shane Watson and Stuart Broad in how to review?
Real time I thought that was out. The amount of turn young Ahmed got was remarkable. It was in line for off stump and missed leg.
Now gifted a wicket.
Still on course for 280 though.
Maybe. That was a very good partnership. Lets see if those coming after can match it. My guess on the series to date is that they will fade a bit. Maybe 240.
If they get 350 after that I'm blaming you.
6 out. Not bad, if I say so myself (and no one else will).
Boris has three faults. He's corrupt, he's lazy and his judgement is poor. The first is forgiveable, the second is unfortunate, but the third makes him unfit to govern. He's not a details man and a PM doesn't need to be as long as he has judgement.
Brown was a details man, and it meant he couldn't see the wood for the trees. Boris can't even see the trees.
The sad bit is that we're just nonplussed by the endemic corruption within the Conservative Party. Corruption isn't a new thing, but the scale and sheer brass balls in the brazenness and scale is something perhaps not seen since Lloyd George.
Boris isn't going to RefUK. He is a big fish and wants to swim in the big sea not a muddy puddle.
Not under FPTP most likely no.
Under PR Boris would leave the Tories for RefUK the next day
I doubt Boris would bother with RefUK under any circumstances. He'll want to remain within the Tory network, with all the connections for status and profit that entails. He's not going to get that hanging around with a bunch of clodhoppers in RefUK. He may as well join the Monster Raving Loony Party for all the good that would do him.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
Boris isn't going to RefUK. He is a big fish and wants to swim in the big sea not a muddy puddle.
Not under FPTP most likely no.
Under PR Boris would leave the Tories for RefUK the next day
I doubt Boris would bother with RefUK under any circumstances. He'll want to remain within the Tory network, with all the connections for status and profit that entails. He's not going to get that hanging around with a bunch of clodhoppers in RefUK. He may as well join the Monster Raving Loony Party for all the good that would do him.
Under PR RefUK would win 5 to 10% of MPs tomorrow, maybe more as some currently voting Conservative under FPTP but ideologically harder right would switch to RefUK with PR as they wouldn't need to keep voting Conservative to keep Labour and the LDs out as they do under FPTP
Just like Partygate before it, the Tories are now desperately trying to convince us that Keir Starmer and Boris Johnson are the same.
Before the Tories had collective amnesia/lied to the public, they nearly all praised Sue Gray for her work. Boris Johnson was the one that appointed her. MPs including JRM, Johnson, Sunak all said she had produced a fair report and that it had got Johnson off the hook. Many on the left said it was a white-wash/very lenient.
So now the Tories expect us to forget all of that and tell us that parties Boris Johnson said didn't happen, not only did happen but he was stitched up by Labour and Sue Gray because he chose to attend them.
They must think we are absolute idiots. And some people are happily cheering this on. This is Trump politics, that is what it is. It must be eradicated now and fast.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
Indeed. But don't forget the state the Labour Party was in just four years ago, and they've mostly turned the corner. It'll be harder for the Conservatives to change whilst they're in power, though.
Boris has three faults. He's corrupt, he's lazy and his judgement is poor. The first is forgiveable, the second is unfortunate, but the third makes him unfit to govern. He's not a details man and a PM doesn't need to be as long as he has judgement.
Brown was a details man, and it meant he couldn't see the wood for the trees. Boris can't even see the trees.
I think that is rather a good post re Boris and Brown, except I also think being corrupt is unforgivable and makes him unfit to govern as well. Being lazy also makes him unfit to govern, but otherwise not an issue in any role in life where being lazy is tolerated.
Boris isn't going to RefUK. He is a big fish and wants to swim in the big sea not a muddy puddle.
Not under FPTP most likely no.
Under PR Boris would leave the Tories for RefUK the next day
I doubt Boris would bother with RefUK under any circumstances. He'll want to remain within the Tory network, with all the connections for status and profit that entails. He's not going to get that hanging around with a bunch of clodhoppers in RefUK. He may as well join the Monster Raving Loony Party for all the good that would do him.
Under PR RefUK would win 5 to 10% of MPs tomorrow, maybe more as some currently voting Conservative under FPTP but ideologically harder right would switch to RefUK with PR as they wouldn't need to keep voting Conservative to keep Labour and the LDs out as they do under FPTP
So what. Boris doesn't want to be the next LibDems (on a good day).
He wants to rule the world and he ain't going to manage that via leadership of RefUK.
It is either leading the Cons in govt or making a ton of money from his extra-curricular activities.
Ministers will introduce new powers to enable mass detention of migrants
BUT Article 5 of ECHR states there must be a 'realistic prospect of removal'
Given Rwanda not up and running - and capacity issues - this will inevitably create legal issues
These are human beings not cattle - very "guilty until proven innocent" feeling about this.
I want to see this issue resolved - but none of the policies the Tories are putting forward will. They want a fight with the courts to get a poll boost. It stinks.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The other way of looking at this is that Boris did indeed lie egregiously. His cabinet, led by Sunak, would not tolerate that and he was removed from office. The system worked and was upheld by the Conservative party. Apart from some serious brain fade by the members in appointing Truss, the system has actually worked. We now have an honest, if not very exciting, PM. Hurrah. It is the least we should expect and Boris did not make that standard.
I really think people like you and @RochdalePioneers need some experience of living in a genuinely corrupt country. This is not one. The systems work slowly, frustratingly slowly at times, but they work.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The problem is that Labour supporters tend to be the same. Look at all the Labour figures who defended Corbyn whilst he was leader - including Starmer. It's their team, so they'll defend it whatever.
Boris isn't going to RefUK. He is a big fish and wants to swim in the big sea not a muddy puddle.
Not under FPTP most likely no.
Under PR Boris would leave the Tories for RefUK the next day
I doubt Boris would bother with RefUK under any circumstances. He'll want to remain within the Tory network, with all the connections for status and profit that entails. He's not going to get that hanging around with a bunch of clodhoppers in RefUK. He may as well join the Monster Raving Loony Party for all the good that would do him.
Under PR RefUK would win 5 to 10% of MPs tomorrow, maybe more as some currently voting Conservative under FPTP but ideologically harder right would switch to RefUK with PR as they wouldn't need to keep voting Conservative to keep Labour and the LDs out as they do under FPTP
I absolutely support people voting UKIP / FUKUK or whatever getting representation for their votes. Its supposed to be a democracy.
Your problem is that your interest in democracy goes as far as "how do I keep the Conservative Party in power".
And your party as we're all discussing in endemically corrupt and morally bankrupt. It is possible to have personal morality and say "I can't associate myself with this any more". And you'd feel much better if you did so. And yet you don't, and keep finding excuses as to why you should stay.
I don't expect a clear answer why, I am just fascinated by it. Or perhaps, when you finally snap and walk away you will look back on these events - as I did with the later stuff with Labour - and wonder what on earth you had been reduced to defending *that*.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The other way of looking at this is that Boris did indeed lie egregiously. His cabinet, led by Sunak, would not tolerate that and he was removed from office. The system worked and was upheld by the Conservative party. Apart from some serious brain fade by the members in appointing Truss, the system has actually worked. We now have an honest, if not very exciting, PM. Hurrah. It is the least we should expect and Boris did not make that standard.
I really think people like you and @RochdalePioneers need some experience of living in a genuinely corrupt country. This is not one. The systems work slowly, frustratingly slowly at times, but they work.
David have you been asleep for the last week? The attacks on Keir Starmer are that she's a Labour supporter and she stitched up the Tories/Johnson. This is post-truth politics/outright lies, playing us all for idiots. I assume you have not been taken in by it.
And yes I am glad we have Sunak over the moron Johnson.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The problem is that Labour supporters tend to be the same. Look at all the Labour figures who defended Corbyn whilst he was leader - including Starmer. It's their team, so they'll defend it whatever.
Something needs to change. As I have admitted honestly, I did fall into this trap and intend never to do so again. So I say this as somebody who has come from that place, something has to be done.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The other way of looking at this is that Boris did indeed lie egregiously. His cabinet, led by Sunak, would not tolerate that and he was removed from office. The system worked and was upheld by the Conservative party. Apart from some serious brain fade by the members in appointing Truss, the system has actually worked. We now have an honest, if not very exciting, PM. Hurrah. It is the least we should expect and Boris did not make that standard.
I really think people like you and @RochdalePioneers need some experience of living in a genuinely corrupt country. This is not one. The systems work slowly, frustratingly slowly at times, but they work.
This IS a genuinely corrupt country. We have the party in government corruptly handing 9 figure no questions asked contracts to its friends and patrons with no delivery of any kind required. None. In the middle of the greatest public health emergency for a century they took our money and stuck it in their pockets. Fuck the nurses and doctors dropping like flies, it doesn't matter if the PPE CorruptCo sources arrives and is unusable, we pay them anyway and you can die.
And that is just one example. OK so we don't yet need to bribe the police and council officials. But its not thanks to the ruling party who positively encourage cesspool politics.
Egregious billions stolen corruption is still egregious corruption. That other countries are more corrupt doesn't suddenly mean that our corruption is not corruption and we should just pooh-pooh it.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The other way of looking at this is that Boris did indeed lie egregiously. His cabinet, led by Sunak, would not tolerate that and he was removed from office. The system worked and was upheld by the Conservative party. Apart from some serious brain fade by the members in appointing Truss, the system has actually worked. We now have an honest, if not very exciting, PM. Hurrah. It is the least we should expect and Boris did not make that standard.
I really think people like you and @RochdalePioneers need some experience of living in a genuinely corrupt country. This is not one. The systems work slowly, frustratingly slowly at times, but they work.
David have you been asleep for the last week? The attacks on Keir Starmer are that she's a Labour supporter and she stitched up the Tories/Johnson. This is post-truth politics/outright lies, playing us all for idiots. I assume you have not been taken in by it.
And yes I am glad we have Sunak over the moron Johnson.
Those attacks have come from a few nutters. No one I know is seriously suggesting that Gray's investigation was anything other than impartial and fair. But Boris has already paid a very heavy price for his lying. He has been driven from the office he has aspired to his whole life. The risk of going on and on and on about this is that he starts to get some sympathy for what looks like persecution. I don't want him to engender sympathy.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The problem is that Labour supporters tend to be the same. Look at all the Labour figures who defended Corbyn whilst he was leader - including Starmer. It's their team, so they'll defend it whatever.
Something needs to change. As I have admitted honestly, I did fall into this trap and intend never to do so again. So I say this as somebody who has come from that place, something has to be done.
IMV there are several aspects to this. I'd like to see a little more compassion. Politicians are people too, and make mistakes. Some mistakes can be forgivable, especially when acted on with limited information (see Covid etc), or in fraught circumstances. Persecuting people who make honest well-meant mistakes just causes people to hide stuff, and that's bad for everyone.
And that means as much for your opponents as your side.
Boris isn't going to RefUK. He is a big fish and wants to swim in the big sea not a muddy puddle.
Not under FPTP most likely no.
Under PR Boris would leave the Tories for RefUK the next day
I doubt Boris would bother with RefUK under any circumstances. He'll want to remain within the Tory network, with all the connections for status and profit that entails. He's not going to get that hanging around with a bunch of clodhoppers in RefUK. He may as well join the Monster Raving Loony Party for all the good that would do him.
Under PR RefUK would win 5 to 10% of MPs tomorrow, maybe more as some currently voting Conservative under FPTP but ideologically harder right would switch to RefUK with PR as they wouldn't need to keep voting Conservative to keep Labour and the LDs out as they do under FPTP
So what. Boris doesn't want to be the next LibDems (on a good day).
He wants to rule the world and he ain't going to manage that via leadership of RefUK.
It is either leading the Cons in govt or making a ton of money from his extra-curricular activities.
I think he might even do LOTO post the Cons GE defeat if it were feasible.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The other way of looking at this is that Boris did indeed lie egregiously. His cabinet, led by Sunak, would not tolerate that and he was removed from office. The system worked and was upheld by the Conservative party. Apart from some serious brain fade by the members in appointing Truss, the system has actually worked. We now have an honest, if not very exciting, PM. Hurrah. It is the least we should expect and Boris did not make that standard.
I really think people like you and @RochdalePioneers need some experience of living in a genuinely corrupt country. This is not one. The systems work slowly, frustratingly slowly at times, but they work.
David have you been asleep for the last week? The attacks on Keir Starmer are that she's a Labour supporter and she stitched up the Tories/Johnson. This is post-truth politics/outright lies, playing us all for idiots. I assume you have not been taken in by it.
And yes I am glad we have Sunak over the moron Johnson.
Those attacks have come from a few nutters. No one I know is seriously suggesting that Gray's investigation was anything other than impartial and fair. But Boris has already paid a very heavy price for his lying. He has been driven from the office he has aspired to his whole life. The risk of going on and on and on about this is that he starts to get some sympathy for what looks like persecution. I don't want him to engender sympathy.
Nah I can't agree with that. The process has to be completed and Johnson made to face up to his failings. Something he has singularly failed to do so far. I would perhaps have agreed with you if he had accepted his failings but he has not and so he needs to be forced to do so - hopefully with his removal as an MP.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The other way of looking at this is that Boris did indeed lie egregiously. His cabinet, led by Sunak, would not tolerate that and he was removed from office. The system worked and was upheld by the Conservative party. Apart from some serious brain fade by the members in appointing Truss, the system has actually worked. We now have an honest, if not very exciting, PM. Hurrah. It is the least we should expect and Boris did not make that standard.
I really think people like you and @RochdalePioneers need some experience of living in a genuinely corrupt country. This is not one. The systems work slowly, frustratingly slowly at times, but they work.
David have you been asleep for the last week? The attacks on Keir Starmer are that she's a Labour supporter and she stitched up the Tories/Johnson. This is post-truth politics/outright lies, playing us all for idiots. I assume you have not been taken in by it.
And yes I am glad we have Sunak over the moron Johnson.
Those attacks have come from a few nutters. No one I know is seriously suggesting that Gray's investigation was anything other than impartial and fair. But Boris has already paid a very heavy price for his lying. He has been driven from the office he has aspired to his whole life. The risk of going on and on and on about this is that he starts to get some sympathy for what looks like persecution. I don't want him to engender sympathy.
Really?
Dan Hodges and the Mail this morning are obsessed with Keir and his appointing Sue Gray. They are trying this as their next "beergate" issue. You are I am afraid, missing what is going on.
But that's been obvious for years, well before he became MoL, let alone PM.
So what dos that say about the Conservative Party that let the fetid contents of the toilet bowl run the country?
Remember how criticism of Johnson used to be shouted down by "Boris Derangement Syndrome"? And some of the criticisms probably were deranged. But it was also a convenient way to shut down genuine issues with BoJo, which were obvious from before he entered politics.
There is something wrong with the main parties that Corbyn was allowed to stand and so was Johnson.
In Labour's case something Keir has done is make it basically impossible for Corbyn to ever get enough nominations again. The Tories need to do something similar, perhaps MPs should have the decision and the public should not?
Boris isn't going to RefUK. He is a big fish and wants to swim in the big sea not a muddy puddle.
Not under FPTP most likely no.
Under PR Boris would leave the Tories for RefUK the next day
I doubt Boris would bother with RefUK under any circumstances. He'll want to remain within the Tory network, with all the connections for status and profit that entails. He's not going to get that hanging around with a bunch of clodhoppers in RefUK. He may as well join the Monster Raving Loony Party for all the good that would do him.
Under PR RefUK would win 5 to 10% of MPs tomorrow, maybe more as some currently voting Conservative under FPTP but ideologically harder right would switch to RefUK with PR as they wouldn't need to keep voting Conservative to keep Labour and the LDs out as they do under FPTP
I absolutely support people voting UKIP / FUKUK or whatever getting representation for their votes. Its supposed to be a democracy.
Your problem is that your interest in democracy goes as far as "how do I keep the Conservative Party in power".
And your party as we're all discussing in endemically corrupt and morally bankrupt. It is possible to have personal morality and say "I can't associate myself with this any more". And you'd feel much better if you did so. And yet you don't, and keep finding excuses as to why you should stay.
I don't expect a clear answer why, I am just fascinated by it. Or perhaps, when you finally snap and walk away you will look back on these events - as I did with the later stuff with Labour - and wonder what on earth you had been reduced to defending *that*.
In your view, in my view PM Sunak and Chancellor Hunt are certainly not corrupt or morally bankrupt.
Let us also not forget it is Starmer who has got Sue Gray, previously an impartial civil servant, to now work for him
Boris isn't going to RefUK. He is a big fish and wants to swim in the big sea not a muddy puddle.
Not under FPTP most likely no.
Under PR Boris would leave the Tories for RefUK the next day
I doubt Boris would bother with RefUK under any circumstances. He'll want to remain within the Tory network, with all the connections for status and profit that entails. He's not going to get that hanging around with a bunch of clodhoppers in RefUK. He may as well join the Monster Raving Loony Party for all the good that would do him.
Under PR RefUK would win 5 to 10% of MPs tomorrow, maybe more as some currently voting Conservative under FPTP but ideologically harder right would switch to RefUK with PR as they wouldn't need to keep voting Conservative to keep Labour and the LDs out as they do under FPTP
I absolutely support people voting UKIP / FUKUK or whatever getting representation for their votes. Its supposed to be a democracy.
Your problem is that your interest in democracy goes as far as "how do I keep the Conservative Party in power".
And your party as we're all discussing in endemically corrupt and morally bankrupt. It is possible to have personal morality and say "I can't associate myself with this any more". And you'd feel much better if you did so. And yet you don't, and keep finding excuses as to why you should stay.
I don't expect a clear answer why, I am just fascinated by it. Or perhaps, when you finally snap and walk away you will look back on these events - as I did with the later stuff with Labour - and wonder what on earth you had been reduced to defending *that*.
In your view, in my view PM Sunak and Chancellor Hunt are certainly not cirruot or morally bankrupt.
Let us also not forget it is Starmer who has got Sue Gray, previously an impartial civil servant, to now work for him
And here you go @DavidL, the narrative has started.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The problem is that Labour supporters tend to be the same. Look at all the Labour figures who defended Corbyn whilst he was leader - including Starmer. It's their team, so they'll defend it whatever.
Something needs to change. As I have admitted honestly, I did fall into this trap and intend never to do so again. So I say this as somebody who has come from that place, something has to be done.
IMV there are several aspects to this. I'd like to see a little more compassion. Politicians are people too, and make mistakes. Some mistakes can be forgivable, especially when acted on with limited information (see Covid etc), or in fraught circumstances. Persecuting people who make honest well-meant mistakes just causes people to hide stuff, and that's bad for everyone.
And that means as much for your opponents as your side.
I had been increasingly and vocally unhappy for a while. My naïve 'back the underdog' approach had led me to briefly back Corbyn followed by a rapid "what have I done" and then horror as what appeared to be a tidal wave of trots poured into the party both locally and nationally.
I went to the CLP antisemitism training session - a mandatory meeting imposed on all CLPs by HQ in response to the increasing furore about what Jeremy was saying and who he was associating with. The party training document had a strident definition of AS and why it was wrong signed by Jeremy. And as trots foamed on in anger at some good friends' contributions in the meeting, I read again the AS definition signed by JC, and looked at the photos of JC marching behind a clearly AS banner next to AS signs, which his own document said was AS, felt this cleansing calm, stood up and walked out of the meeting and the Labour Party.
You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. Replace Jeremy as leader and purge the trots. Had he not done so then we'd probably have Wrong-Daily as leader and Boris would be stepping corruption up to ever greater levels. I was a nobody, I could quit. Starmer could not.
1. Illegal migration bill will make all asylum claims from those who have come indirectly to UK 'inadmissible'
But this will inevitably be subject to legal challenge and potential judicial review. It will affect genuine refugees
These are human beings we are now denying their rights to. This will end badly.
Of course. Everyone knows two or three things;
that many of the general public don't like refugees in any quantity, (currently unless they are from Hong Kong or Ukraine);
that about 2 or 3 billion people have some sort of potential asylum claim under international law, a tiny % of whom will make it;
and that if people do arrive here, there is nowhere else to put people with lawful claims but the UK, and no reason why we should place the burden on countries with far more refugee problems than we do.
Therefore there is no 'solution' short of a better governed world. It can only be managed, with each interest group only mentioning the truths that they favour, boring the rest of us to death.
But that's been obvious for years, well before he became MoL, let alone PM.
So what dos that say about the Conservative Party that let the fetid contents of the toilet bowl run the country?
Remember how criticism of Johnson used to be shouted down by "Boris Derangement Syndrome"? And some of the criticisms probably were deranged. But it was also a convenient way to shut down genuine issues with BoJo, which were obvious from before he entered politics.
I'd always assumed it was a description of something Boris suffers from.
But that's been obvious for years, well before he became MoL, let alone PM.
So what dos that say about the Conservative Party that let the fetid contents of the toilet bowl run the country?
Remember how criticism of Johnson used to be shouted down by "Boris Derangement Syndrome"? And some of the criticisms probably were deranged. But it was also a convenient way to shut down genuine issues with BoJo, which were obvious from before he entered politics.
IMV BDS was a real thing (and still is). He was in no way as good as many of his Brexit-onanist supporters made out, but neither was he as bad as many people make out now (especially some of those who were previously loved him because of his delivery of Brexit).
Johnson *could* have been a good PM, and he got some big calls right. But to be a good PM, he needed to learn from his mistakes; for instance that bluster was not a good way of running the country. It was clear before he became PM that he would not learn - and the flaws so visible beforehand brought him down.
There is something wrong with the main parties that Corbyn was allowed to stand and so was Johnson.
In Labour's case something Keir has done is make it basically impossible for Corbyn to ever get enough nominations again. The Tories need to do something similar, perhaps MPs should have the decision and the public should not?
Something has gone very wrong.
No he hasn't, any Labour leadership candidate still only needs support from 10% of Labour MPs plus some CLPs or trade unions to get on the leadership ballot. In the Tories only the final 2 in the MPs rounds get sent to the members.
Though I would change the rules of both the Conservative and Labour parties so that only the party's MPs pick the PM in power when they have a Commons majority. In opposition members can still get the final say as the new leader would have to then be elected by the voters at a general election
The answer might be "several years ago" of course. These things don't tend to occur at the first time of asking, and are based on a long relationship. Which can be spun negatively.
Boris isn't going to RefUK. He is a big fish and wants to swim in the big sea not a muddy puddle.
Not under FPTP most likely no.
Under PR Boris would leave the Tories for RefUK the next day
I doubt Boris would bother with RefUK under any circumstances. He'll want to remain within the Tory network, with all the connections for status and profit that entails. He's not going to get that hanging around with a bunch of clodhoppers in RefUK. He may as well join the Monster Raving Loony Party for all the good that would do him.
Under PR RefUK would win 5 to 10% of MPs tomorrow, maybe more as some currently voting Conservative under FPTP but ideologically harder right would switch to RefUK with PR as they wouldn't need to keep voting Conservative to keep Labour and the LDs out as they do under FPTP
I absolutely support people voting UKIP / FUKUK or whatever getting representation for their votes. Its supposed to be a democracy.
Your problem is that your interest in democracy goes as far as "how do I keep the Conservative Party in power".
And your party as we're all discussing in endemically corrupt and morally bankrupt. It is possible to have personal morality and say "I can't associate myself with this any more". And you'd feel much better if you did so. And yet you don't, and keep finding excuses as to why you should stay.
I don't expect a clear answer why, I am just fascinated by it. Or perhaps, when you finally snap and walk away you will look back on these events - as I did with the later stuff with Labour - and wonder what on earth you had been reduced to defending *that*.
In your view, in my view PM Sunak and Chancellor Hunt are certainly not corrupt or morally bankrupt.
Let us also not forget it is Starmer who has got Sue Gray, previously an impartial civil servant, to now work for him
As did Boris get David Frost, previously an impartial civil servant, to then work for him.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The problem is that Labour supporters tend to be the same. Look at all the Labour figures who defended Corbyn whilst he was leader - including Starmer. It's their team, so they'll defend it whatever.
Something needs to change. As I have admitted honestly, I did fall into this trap and intend never to do so again. So I say this as somebody who has come from that place, something has to be done.
IMV there are several aspects to this. I'd like to see a little more compassion. Politicians are people too, and make mistakes. Some mistakes can be forgivable, especially when acted on with limited information (see Covid etc), or in fraught circumstances. Persecuting people who make honest well-meant mistakes just causes people to hide stuff, and that's bad for everyone.
And that means as much for your opponents as your side.
I had been increasingly and vocally unhappy for a while. My naïve 'back the underdog' approach had led me to briefly back Corbyn followed by a rapid "what have I done" and then horror as what appeared to be a tidal wave of trots poured into the party both locally and nationally.
I went to the CLP antisemitism training session - a mandatory meeting imposed on all CLPs by HQ in response to the increasing furore about what Jeremy was saying and who he was associating with. The party training document had a strident definition of AS and why it was wrong signed by Jeremy. And as trots foamed on in anger at some good friends' contributions in the meeting, I read again the AS definition signed by JC, and looked at the photos of JC marching behind a clearly AS banner next to AS signs, which his own document said was AS, felt this cleansing calm, stood up and walked out of the meeting and the Labour Party.
You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. Replace Jeremy as leader and purge the trots. Had he not done so then we'd probably have Wrong-Daily as leader and Boris would be stepping corruption up to ever greater levels. I was a nobody, I could quit. Starmer could not.
"You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. "
That's not a very convincing excuse IMO. Starmer stayed in because he wanted to be leader.
Boris isn't going to RefUK. He is a big fish and wants to swim in the big sea not a muddy puddle.
Not under FPTP most likely no.
Under PR Boris would leave the Tories for RefUK the next day
I doubt Boris would bother with RefUK under any circumstances. He'll want to remain within the Tory network, with all the connections for status and profit that entails. He's not going to get that hanging around with a bunch of clodhoppers in RefUK. He may as well join the Monster Raving Loony Party for all the good that would do him.
Under PR RefUK would win 5 to 10% of MPs tomorrow, maybe more as some currently voting Conservative under FPTP but ideologically harder right would switch to RefUK with PR as they wouldn't need to keep voting Conservative to keep Labour and the LDs out as they do under FPTP
So what. Boris doesn't want to be the next LibDems (on a good day).
He wants to rule the world and he ain't going to manage that via leadership of RefUK.
It is either leading the Cons in govt or making a ton of money from his extra-curricular activities.
The Italian PM under PR is now the leader of the populist hard right Brothers of Italy, not the centre right Forza Italia
"Matt Hancock rejected advice from England’s Chief Medical Officer to replace the 14-day Covid quarantine with five days of testing because it would “imply we’ve been getting it wrong”.
Mr Hancock was told by Prof Sir Chris Whitty in Nov 2020 it would be “pretty well as good” for contacts of positive Covid cases to test for five days “in lieu” of a fortnight’s isolation. WhatsApp messages between the two men have also revealed that the 14-day quarantine period had likely been “too long all along”. "
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The other way of looking at this is that Boris did indeed lie egregiously. His cabinet, led by Sunak, would not tolerate that and he was removed from office. The system worked and was upheld by the Conservative party. Apart from some serious brain fade by the members in appointing Truss, the system has actually worked. We now have an honest, if not very exciting, PM. Hurrah. It is the least we should expect and Boris did not make that standard.
I really think people like you and @RochdalePioneers need some experience of living in a genuinely corrupt country. This is not one. The systems work slowly, frustratingly slowly at times, but they work.
David have you been asleep for the last week? The attacks on Keir Starmer are that she's a Labour supporter and she stitched up the Tories/Johnson. This is post-truth politics/outright lies, playing us all for idiots. I assume you have not been taken in by it.
And yes I am glad we have Sunak over the moron Johnson.
Those attacks have come from a few nutters. No one I know is seriously suggesting that Gray's investigation was anything other than impartial and fair. But Boris has already paid a very heavy price for his lying. He has been driven from the office he has aspired to his whole life. The risk of going on and on and on about this is that he starts to get some sympathy for what looks like persecution. I don't want him to engender sympathy.
Really?
Dan Hodges and the Mail this morning are obsessed with Keir and his appointing Sue Gray. They are trying this as their next "beergate" issue. You are I am afraid, missing what is going on.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The problem is that Labour supporters tend to be the same. Look at all the Labour figures who defended Corbyn whilst he was leader - including Starmer. It's their team, so they'll defend it whatever.
Something needs to change. As I have admitted honestly, I did fall into this trap and intend never to do so again. So I say this as somebody who has come from that place, something has to be done.
IMV there are several aspects to this. I'd like to see a little more compassion. Politicians are people too, and make mistakes. Some mistakes can be forgivable, especially when acted on with limited information (see Covid etc), or in fraught circumstances. Persecuting people who make honest well-meant mistakes just causes people to hide stuff, and that's bad for everyone.
And that means as much for your opponents as your side.
I had been increasingly and vocally unhappy for a while. My naïve 'back the underdog' approach had led me to briefly back Corbyn followed by a rapid "what have I done" and then horror as what appeared to be a tidal wave of trots poured into the party both locally and nationally.
I went to the CLP antisemitism training session - a mandatory meeting imposed on all CLPs by HQ in response to the increasing furore about what Jeremy was saying and who he was associating with. The party training document had a strident definition of AS and why it was wrong signed by Jeremy. And as trots foamed on in anger at some good friends' contributions in the meeting, I read again the AS definition signed by JC, and looked at the photos of JC marching behind a clearly AS banner next to AS signs, which his own document said was AS, felt this cleansing calm, stood up and walked out of the meeting and the Labour Party.
You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. Replace Jeremy as leader and purge the trots. Had he not done so then we'd probably have Wrong-Daily as leader and Boris would be stepping corruption up to ever greater levels. I was a nobody, I could quit. Starmer could not.
"Fight the cancer" by twice campaigning for it to become Prime Minister.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The problem is that Labour supporters tend to be the same. Look at all the Labour figures who defended Corbyn whilst he was leader - including Starmer. It's their team, so they'll defend it whatever.
Something needs to change. As I have admitted honestly, I did fall into this trap and intend never to do so again. So I say this as somebody who has come from that place, something has to be done.
IMV there are several aspects to this. I'd like to see a little more compassion. Politicians are people too, and make mistakes. Some mistakes can be forgivable, especially when acted on with limited information (see Covid etc), or in fraught circumstances. Persecuting people who make honest well-meant mistakes just causes people to hide stuff, and that's bad for everyone.
And that means as much for your opponents as your side.
I had been increasingly and vocally unhappy for a while. My naïve 'back the underdog' approach had led me to briefly back Corbyn followed by a rapid "what have I done" and then horror as what appeared to be a tidal wave of trots poured into the party both locally and nationally.
I went to the CLP antisemitism training session - a mandatory meeting imposed on all CLPs by HQ in response to the increasing furore about what Jeremy was saying and who he was associating with. The party training document had a strident definition of AS and why it was wrong signed by Jeremy. And as trots foamed on in anger at some good friends' contributions in the meeting, I read again the AS definition signed by JC, and looked at the photos of JC marching behind a clearly AS banner next to AS signs, which his own document said was AS, felt this cleansing calm, stood up and walked out of the meeting and the Labour Party.
You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. Replace Jeremy as leader and purge the trots. Had he not done so then we'd probably have Wrong-Daily as leader and Boris would be stepping corruption up to ever greater levels. I was a nobody, I could quit. Starmer could not.
The reality is, that if Keir Starmer had not served, he would never have been voted in - he had to serve to look like he believed in the JC project even though he didn't as I said so at the time from my own sources - and he would never been able to resolve the anti-Semitism issue.
It clearly has worked, because the Board of Deputies, JLM and EHRC have all said he has gripped and resolved the issue. So what he did was right, people are too political to actually accept that, however.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The problem is that Labour supporters tend to be the same. Look at all the Labour figures who defended Corbyn whilst he was leader - including Starmer. It's their team, so they'll defend it whatever.
Something needs to change. As I have admitted honestly, I did fall into this trap and intend never to do so again. So I say this as somebody who has come from that place, something has to be done.
IMV there are several aspects to this. I'd like to see a little more compassion. Politicians are people too, and make mistakes. Some mistakes can be forgivable, especially when acted on with limited information (see Covid etc), or in fraught circumstances. Persecuting people who make honest well-meant mistakes just causes people to hide stuff, and that's bad for everyone.
And that means as much for your opponents as your side.
I had been increasingly and vocally unhappy for a while. My naïve 'back the underdog' approach had led me to briefly back Corbyn followed by a rapid "what have I done" and then horror as what appeared to be a tidal wave of trots poured into the party both locally and nationally.
I went to the CLP antisemitism training session - a mandatory meeting imposed on all CLPs by HQ in response to the increasing furore about what Jeremy was saying and who he was associating with. The party training document had a strident definition of AS and why it was wrong signed by Jeremy. And as trots foamed on in anger at some good friends' contributions in the meeting, I read again the AS definition signed by JC, and looked at the photos of JC marching behind a clearly AS banner next to AS signs, which his own document said was AS, felt this cleansing calm, stood up and walked out of the meeting and the Labour Party.
You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. Replace Jeremy as leader and purge the trots. Had he not done so then we'd probably have Wrong-Daily as leader and Boris would be stepping corruption up to ever greater levels. I was a nobody, I could quit. Starmer could not.
"You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. "
That's not a very convincing excuse IMO. Starmer stayed in because he wanted to be leader.
Do you accept that KS has resolved the anti-Semitism issue (not me saying that, it is the EHRC and BoD)? In which case, how do you suggest he had done that without being voted in leader and how do you suggest he had done that without having won over the membership?
The other opponents were RLB and Burgon, do you think they would have resolved the problem? Lisa Nandy had no chance of winning because she did your counter-factual and resigned, the members never trusted her again.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The problem is that Labour supporters tend to be the same. Look at all the Labour figures who defended Corbyn whilst he was leader - including Starmer. It's their team, so they'll defend it whatever.
Something needs to change. As I have admitted honestly, I did fall into this trap and intend never to do so again. So I say this as somebody who has come from that place, something has to be done.
IMV there are several aspects to this. I'd like to see a little more compassion. Politicians are people too, and make mistakes. Some mistakes can be forgivable, especially when acted on with limited information (see Covid etc), or in fraught circumstances. Persecuting people who make honest well-meant mistakes just causes people to hide stuff, and that's bad for everyone.
And that means as much for your opponents as your side.
I had been increasingly and vocally unhappy for a while. My naïve 'back the underdog' approach had led me to briefly back Corbyn followed by a rapid "what have I done" and then horror as what appeared to be a tidal wave of trots poured into the party both locally and nationally.
I went to the CLP antisemitism training session - a mandatory meeting imposed on all CLPs by HQ in response to the increasing furore about what Jeremy was saying and who he was associating with. The party training document had a strident definition of AS and why it was wrong signed by Jeremy. And as trots foamed on in anger at some good friends' contributions in the meeting, I read again the AS definition signed by JC, and looked at the photos of JC marching behind a clearly AS banner next to AS signs, which his own document said was AS, felt this cleansing calm, stood up and walked out of the meeting and the Labour Party.
You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. Replace Jeremy as leader and purge the trots. Had he not done so then we'd probably have Wrong-Daily as leader and Boris would be stepping corruption up to ever greater levels. I was a nobody, I could quit. Starmer could not.
"You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. "
That's not a very convincing excuse IMO. Starmer stayed in because he wanted to be leader.
That's precisely my point. He wanted to be leader because the country needs the official opposition. Various people fled the Labour Party, several long-standing MPs with it. We took the moral high ground and basically abandoned ship.
Had Starmer done that. Reeves. Milliband. Any of the senior team. Then the country loses the party as a force and opens the door to more Tory corruption.
That is what this all comes down to. When the government is as corrupt as this one is, someone has to oppose them. Politics is always shades of grey anyway, so its justifying backing *that* to avoid a worse *this*.
The answer might be "several years ago" of course. These things don't tend to occur at the first time of asking, and are based on a long relationship. Which can be spun negatively.
In the interview he confirms the position became available in October so it is likely that sometime since then he contacted her
He also confirmed he knew her before he came into politics but that is not the issue
He has cultivated a narrative of integrity but looks evasive when I do not understand why he cannot just confirm the date and end the matter
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The problem is that Labour supporters tend to be the same. Look at all the Labour figures who defended Corbyn whilst he was leader - including Starmer. It's their team, so they'll defend it whatever.
Something needs to change. As I have admitted honestly, I did fall into this trap and intend never to do so again. So I say this as somebody who has come from that place, something has to be done.
IMV there are several aspects to this. I'd like to see a little more compassion. Politicians are people too, and make mistakes. Some mistakes can be forgivable, especially when acted on with limited information (see Covid etc), or in fraught circumstances. Persecuting people who make honest well-meant mistakes just causes people to hide stuff, and that's bad for everyone.
And that means as much for your opponents as your side.
I had been increasingly and vocally unhappy for a while. My naïve 'back the underdog' approach had led me to briefly back Corbyn followed by a rapid "what have I done" and then horror as what appeared to be a tidal wave of trots poured into the party both locally and nationally.
I went to the CLP antisemitism training session - a mandatory meeting imposed on all CLPs by HQ in response to the increasing furore about what Jeremy was saying and who he was associating with. The party training document had a strident definition of AS and why it was wrong signed by Jeremy. And as trots foamed on in anger at some good friends' contributions in the meeting, I read again the AS definition signed by JC, and looked at the photos of JC marching behind a clearly AS banner next to AS signs, which his own document said was AS, felt this cleansing calm, stood up and walked out of the meeting and the Labour Party.
You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. Replace Jeremy as leader and purge the trots. Had he not done so then we'd probably have Wrong-Daily as leader and Boris would be stepping corruption up to ever greater levels. I was a nobody, I could quit. Starmer could not.
"Fight the cancer" by twice campaigning for it to become Prime Minister.
Give over. Jezbollah had as much chance of becoming PM as you did.
Boris isn't going to RefUK. He is a big fish and wants to swim in the big sea not a muddy puddle.
Not under FPTP most likely no.
Under PR Boris would leave the Tories for RefUK the next day
I doubt Boris would bother with RefUK under any circumstances. He'll want to remain within the Tory network, with all the connections for status and profit that entails. He's not going to get that hanging around with a bunch of clodhoppers in RefUK. He may as well join the Monster Raving Loony Party for all the good that would do him.
Under PR RefUK would win 5 to 10% of MPs tomorrow, maybe more as some currently voting Conservative under FPTP but ideologically harder right would switch to RefUK with PR as they wouldn't need to keep voting Conservative to keep Labour and the LDs out as they do under FPTP
I absolutely support people voting UKIP / FUKUK or whatever getting representation for their votes. Its supposed to be a democracy.
Your problem is that your interest in democracy goes as far as "how do I keep the Conservative Party in power".
And your party as we're all discussing in endemically corrupt and morally bankrupt. It is possible to have personal morality and say "I can't associate myself with this any more". And you'd feel much better if you did so. And yet you don't, and keep finding excuses as to why you should stay.
I don't expect a clear answer why, I am just fascinated by it. Or perhaps, when you finally snap and walk away you will look back on these events - as I did with the later stuff with Labour - and wonder what on earth you had been reduced to defending *that*.
In your view, in my view PM Sunak and Chancellor Hunt are certainly not corrupt or morally bankrupt.
Let us also not forget it is Starmer who has got Sue Gray, previously an impartial civil servant, to now work for him
As did Boris get David Frost, previously an impartial civil servant, to then work for him.
Bored yet? The country is.
Boris Johnson had the guy that masterminded the response to the GFC, plucked straight from the Civil Service's financial team.
To answer your question, because something is changing here. Labour are getting caught on the back foot, the Tories are grasping the narrative.
Anyone else sensing the current mood shift in tone and political narrative, as Tory’s on PB, in Con Home, out canvassing and just about Everywhere All At Once getting very bullish over how well this Tory fight back is going?
Maybe it’s been a mistake to watch polls so closely for signs of movement, maybe the first signs of the big polling shift and switcheroo in the polls actually indicated by a change of mood and growing confidence we pick up like this from party activists, canvassers and supporters?
To answer your question, because something is changing here. Labour are getting caught on the back foot, the Tories are grasping the narrative.
Anyone else sensing the current mood shift in tone and political narrative, as Tory’s on PB, in Con Home, out canvassing and just about Everywhere All At Once getting very bullish over how well this Tory fight back is going?
Maybe it’s been a mistake to watch polls so closely for signs of movement, maybe the first signs of the big polling shift and switcheroo in the polls actually indicated by a change of mood and growing confidence we pick up like this from party activists, canvassers and supporters?
It’s real. This is happening.
Maybe Moon but their ideas right now are not going to actually do anything.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The problem is that Labour supporters tend to be the same. Look at all the Labour figures who defended Corbyn whilst he was leader - including Starmer. It's their team, so they'll defend it whatever.
Something needs to change. As I have admitted honestly, I did fall into this trap and intend never to do so again. So I say this as somebody who has come from that place, something has to be done.
IMV there are several aspects to this. I'd like to see a little more compassion. Politicians are people too, and make mistakes. Some mistakes can be forgivable, especially when acted on with limited information (see Covid etc), or in fraught circumstances. Persecuting people who make honest well-meant mistakes just causes people to hide stuff, and that's bad for everyone.
And that means as much for your opponents as your side.
I had been increasingly and vocally unhappy for a while. My naïve 'back the underdog' approach had led me to briefly back Corbyn followed by a rapid "what have I done" and then horror as what appeared to be a tidal wave of trots poured into the party both locally and nationally.
I went to the CLP antisemitism training session - a mandatory meeting imposed on all CLPs by HQ in response to the increasing furore about what Jeremy was saying and who he was associating with. The party training document had a strident definition of AS and why it was wrong signed by Jeremy. And as trots foamed on in anger at some good friends' contributions in the meeting, I read again the AS definition signed by JC, and looked at the photos of JC marching behind a clearly AS banner next to AS signs, which his own document said was AS, felt this cleansing calm, stood up and walked out of the meeting and the Labour Party.
You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. Replace Jeremy as leader and purge the trots. Had he not done so then we'd probably have Wrong-Daily as leader and Boris would be stepping corruption up to ever greater levels. I was a nobody, I could quit. Starmer could not.
"You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. "
That's not a very convincing excuse IMO. Starmer stayed in because he wanted to be leader.
That's precisely my point. He wanted to be leader because the country needs the official opposition. Various people fled the Labour Party, several long-standing MPs with it. We took the moral high ground and basically abandoned ship.
Had Starmer done that. Reeves. Milliband. Any of the senior team. Then the country loses the party as a force and opens the door to more Tory corruption.
That is what this all comes down to. When the government is as corrupt as this one is, someone has to oppose them. Politics is always shades of grey anyway, so its justifying backing *that* to avoid a worse *this*.
In which case, now he's rid the party of anti-Semitism (allegedly...), he could just stand down. Mission accomplished.
He did it for himself. Now, there's nothing wrong with that (as long as you're honest about it), but if he was really a pioneering campaigner against the evils of anti-Semitism, he would not have been in the same room as Corbyn.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The problem is that Labour supporters tend to be the same. Look at all the Labour figures who defended Corbyn whilst he was leader - including Starmer. It's their team, so they'll defend it whatever.
Something needs to change. As I have admitted honestly, I did fall into this trap and intend never to do so again. So I say this as somebody who has come from that place, something has to be done.
IMV there are several aspects to this. I'd like to see a little more compassion. Politicians are people too, and make mistakes. Some mistakes can be forgivable, especially when acted on with limited information (see Covid etc), or in fraught circumstances. Persecuting people who make honest well-meant mistakes just causes people to hide stuff, and that's bad for everyone.
And that means as much for your opponents as your side.
I had been increasingly and vocally unhappy for a while. My naïve 'back the underdog' approach had led me to briefly back Corbyn followed by a rapid "what have I done" and then horror as what appeared to be a tidal wave of trots poured into the party both locally and nationally.
I went to the CLP antisemitism training session - a mandatory meeting imposed on all CLPs by HQ in response to the increasing furore about what Jeremy was saying and who he was associating with. The party training document had a strident definition of AS and why it was wrong signed by Jeremy. And as trots foamed on in anger at some good friends' contributions in the meeting, I read again the AS definition signed by JC, and looked at the photos of JC marching behind a clearly AS banner next to AS signs, which his own document said was AS, felt this cleansing calm, stood up and walked out of the meeting and the Labour Party.
You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. Replace Jeremy as leader and purge the trots. Had he not done so then we'd probably have Wrong-Daily as leader and Boris would be stepping corruption up to ever greater levels. I was a nobody, I could quit. Starmer could not.
"Fight the cancer" by twice campaigning for it to become Prime Minister.
Give over. Jezbollah had as much chance of becoming PM as you did.
Yes, that was the line spun on the doorsteps by Labour canvassers in 2017. And it very nearly worked for them.
The answer might be "several years ago" of course. These things don't tend to occur at the first time of asking, and are based on a long relationship. Which can be spun negatively.
In the interview he confirms the position became available in October so it is likely that sometime since then he contacted her
He also confirmed he knew her before he came into politics but that is not the issue
He has cultivated a narrative of integrity but looks evasive when I do not understand why he cannot just confirm the date and end the matter
Oh, yes - I think he's doing exactly the wrong thing. "Obviously, I've known Sue since before I went into politics. I have wanted to work with her for a long time. This position became available in October and I/[whoever] contacted her [in]formally about it at that time. She was one of a very short list of candidates and I'm delighted she accepted." would seem reasonable, as you can then repeat it ad nauseam depending on which part the interviewer decides to press on.
You'd have thought that there would be a script for this?
"Matt Hancock rejected advice from England’s Chief Medical Officer to replace the 14-day Covid quarantine with five days of testing because it would “imply we’ve been getting it wrong”.
Mr Hancock was told by Prof Sir Chris Whitty in Nov 2020 it would be “pretty well as good” for contacts of positive Covid cases to test for five days “in lieu” of a fortnight’s isolation. WhatsApp messages between the two men have also revealed that the 14-day quarantine period had likely been “too long all along”. "
This is one of the areas I suggested should be looked at yesterday. There was no feedback looking to distinguish between necessary precautions that worked and unnecessary precautions that might have seemed reasonable but did not in fact work. If Hancock refused to improve the guidance because he was scared it might be argued that he was wrong earlier then he is a fool.
To answer your question, because something is changing here. Labour are getting caught on the back foot, the Tories are grasping the narrative.
Anyone else sensing the current mood shift in tone and political narrative, as Tory’s on PB, in Con Home, out canvassing and just about Everywhere All At Once getting very bullish over how well this Tory fight back is going?
Maybe it’s been a mistake to watch polls so closely for signs of movement, maybe the first signs of the big polling shift and switcheroo in the polls actually indicated by a change of mood and growing confidence we pick up like this from party activists, canvassers and supporters?
It’s real. This is happening.
Maybe Moon but their ideas right now are not going to actually do anything.
PS. Another take out - win a full carat Skydiamond. And how much do they cost 😆
The answer might be "several years ago" of course. These things don't tend to occur at the first time of asking, and are based on a long relationship. Which can be spun negatively.
In the interview he confirms the position became available in October so it is likely that sometime since then he contacted her
He also confirmed he knew her before he came into politics but that is not the issue
He has cultivated a narrative of integrity but looks evasive when I do not understand why he cannot just confirm the date and end the matter
Oh, yes - I think he's doing exactly the wrong thing. "Obviously, I've known Sue since before I went into politics. I have wanted to work with her for a long time. This position became available in October and I/[whoever] contacted her [in]formally about it at that time. She was one of a very short list of candidates and I'm delighted she accepted." would seem reasonable, as you can then repeat it ad nauseam depending on which part the interviewer decides to press on.
You'd have thought that there would be a script for this?
I understand Civil Servants have moved into these positions many times before ... but the appointment of Sue Gray (notwithstanding her personal qualities) does look to me like a Labour mistake, because she ended up playing an important role in defenestration of a Tory PM.
Mr. Pioneers, worth recalling Corbyn came within a few thousand votes of Number 10.
The people on here lauding Starmer for getting rid of Corbyn would have been delighted if Corbyn had won in 2019. They'd now be telling us why Corbyn was right to not arm Ukraine, the country that used to exist near Belarus.
Last week I said that if Gray had been talking with Starmer or his team before the report came out, there might be complications.
Remember Shami Chakrabarti
So are you saying the report which the Tories directed her to write and that they praised was somehow a stitch up? What angle is there that you would like to discuss?
Mr. Pioneers, worth recalling Corbyn came within a few thousand votes of Number 10.
The people on here lauding Starmer for getting rid of Corbyn would have been delighted if Corbyn had won in 2019. They'd now be telling us why Corbyn was right to not arm Ukraine, the country that used to exist near Belarus.
I said we dodged a bullet in not voting Corbyn in. The thing is, I am happy to say I got it wrong, it seems a lot of Tories are not.
The only real Corbyn supporters as far as I could tell in 2019 were me, Kinabalu and BJO
It really is the most pathetic attempt at partisan whataboutery. Daily Mail and Nadine giving it a go? To be expected. Anyone else pretending they care less beyond an attempt at spin is just pretending.
To answer your question, because something is changing here. Labour are getting caught on the back foot, the Tories are grasping the narrative.
Anyone else sensing the current mood shift in tone and political narrative, as Tory’s on PB, in Con Home, out canvassing and just about Everywhere All At Once getting very bullish over how well this Tory fight back is going?
Maybe it’s been a mistake to watch polls so closely for signs of movement, maybe the first signs of the big polling shift and switcheroo in the polls actually indicated by a change of mood and growing confidence we pick up like this from party activists, canvassers and supporters?
It’s real. This is happening.
Maybe Moon but their ideas right now are not going to actually do anything.
It could work but it would take full extraordinary rendition treatment - sedatives, nappies, spit hoods, etc.
Suella is a psycho who is nourished by tears of suffering and only by tears of suffering so she'll be up for it but Sunak doesn't have the fortitude to play politics on hardcore mode.
Last week I said that if Gray had been talking with Starmer or his team before the report came out, there might be complications.
Remember Shami Chakrabarti
The report came out 5 months before there was a vacancy
I said 'talking with', not what they were talking about.
That's the point: such conversations may or may not be corrupt, but they can easily be made to look corrupt. And as I said, Labour have recent form for this with the Shami sham.
Any meetings wrt the investigation should all be official ones. Meetings outside the investigation would be interesting.
To answer your question, because something is changing here. Labour are getting caught on the back foot, the Tories are grasping the narrative.
Anyone else sensing the current mood shift in tone and political narrative, as Tory’s on PB, in Con Home, out canvassing and just about Everywhere All At Once getting very bullish over how well this Tory fight back is going?
Maybe it’s been a mistake to watch polls so closely for signs of movement, maybe the first signs of the big polling shift and switcheroo in the polls actually indicated by a change of mood and growing confidence we pick up like this from party activists, canvassers and supporters?
It’s real. This is happening.
What - specifically - is happening. The big announcement is a non-policy. It cannot actually deliver even what it states, never mind the Sunak target.
I assume the plan is to pitch the Tories against the leftie establishment. "We would have stopped the boats had it not been for leftie lawyers, the courts, the Rwandans, the navy, the French, so vote for us and we promise to overcome all those enemies of the people in the way we utterly failed to do for the last 14 years" etc etc
"Stop the Boats" only has any prospect of being an electoral bonus if you actually stop the boats. Which you can't. So the group of people who still want the forrin to go home are hugely fed up with you, and the majority who have brains are hugely fed up with you.
Farage is going to demolish you over this policy failure.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The problem is that Labour supporters tend to be the same. Look at all the Labour figures who defended Corbyn whilst he was leader - including Starmer. It's their team, so they'll defend it whatever.
Something needs to change. As I have admitted honestly, I did fall into this trap and intend never to do so again. So I say this as somebody who has come from that place, something has to be done.
IMV there are several aspects to this. I'd like to see a little more compassion. Politicians are people too, and make mistakes. Some mistakes can be forgivable, especially when acted on with limited information (see Covid etc), or in fraught circumstances. Persecuting people who make honest well-meant mistakes just causes people to hide stuff, and that's bad for everyone.
And that means as much for your opponents as your side.
I had been increasingly and vocally unhappy for a while. My naïve 'back the underdog' approach had led me to briefly back Corbyn followed by a rapid "what have I done" and then horror as what appeared to be a tidal wave of trots poured into the party both locally and nationally.
I went to the CLP antisemitism training session - a mandatory meeting imposed on all CLPs by HQ in response to the increasing furore about what Jeremy was saying and who he was associating with. The party training document had a strident definition of AS and why it was wrong signed by Jeremy. And as trots foamed on in anger at some good friends' contributions in the meeting, I read again the AS definition signed by JC, and looked at the photos of JC marching behind a clearly AS banner next to AS signs, which his own document said was AS, felt this cleansing calm, stood up and walked out of the meeting and the Labour Party.
You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. Replace Jeremy as leader and purge the trots. Had he not done so then we'd probably have Wrong-Daily as leader and Boris would be stepping corruption up to ever greater levels. I was a nobody, I could quit. Starmer could not.
"You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. "
That's not a very convincing excuse IMO. Starmer stayed in because he wanted to be leader.
Do you stay to reform an organisation or abandon it?
History says that leaving the Labour Party out of principal lengthened the period, in the 80s when Labour previous made itself unelectable. And didn’t get the leavers (ha!) into power either.
If Starmer & Co. had redone the Gang Of Four, Corbynism would have lasted much longer.
Boris isn't going to RefUK. He is a big fish and wants to swim in the big sea not a muddy puddle.
Not under FPTP most likely no.
Under PR Boris would leave the Tories for RefUK the next day
I doubt Boris would bother with RefUK under any circumstances. He'll want to remain within the Tory network, with all the connections for status and profit that entails. He's not going to get that hanging around with a bunch of clodhoppers in RefUK. He may as well join the Monster Raving Loony Party for all the good that would do him.
Under PR RefUK would win 5 to 10% of MPs tomorrow, maybe more as some currently voting Conservative under FPTP but ideologically harder right would switch to RefUK with PR as they wouldn't need to keep voting Conservative to keep Labour and the LDs out as they do under FPTP
So what. Boris doesn't want to be the next LibDems (on a good day).
He wants to rule the world and he ain't going to manage that via leadership of RefUK.
It is either leading the Cons in govt or making a ton of money from his extra-curricular activities.
I think he might even do LOTO post the Cons GE defeat if it were feasible.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The problem is that Labour supporters tend to be the same. Look at all the Labour figures who defended Corbyn whilst he was leader - including Starmer. It's their team, so they'll defend it whatever.
Something needs to change. As I have admitted honestly, I did fall into this trap and intend never to do so again. So I say this as somebody who has come from that place, something has to be done.
IMV there are several aspects to this. I'd like to see a little more compassion. Politicians are people too, and make mistakes. Some mistakes can be forgivable, especially when acted on with limited information (see Covid etc), or in fraught circumstances. Persecuting people who make honest well-meant mistakes just causes people to hide stuff, and that's bad for everyone.
And that means as much for your opponents as your side.
I had been increasingly and vocally unhappy for a while. My naïve 'back the underdog' approach had led me to briefly back Corbyn followed by a rapid "what have I done" and then horror as what appeared to be a tidal wave of trots poured into the party both locally and nationally.
I went to the CLP antisemitism training session - a mandatory meeting imposed on all CLPs by HQ in response to the increasing furore about what Jeremy was saying and who he was associating with. The party training document had a strident definition of AS and why it was wrong signed by Jeremy. And as trots foamed on in anger at some good friends' contributions in the meeting, I read again the AS definition signed by JC, and looked at the photos of JC marching behind a clearly AS banner next to AS signs, which his own document said was AS, felt this cleansing calm, stood up and walked out of the meeting and the Labour Party.
You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. Replace Jeremy as leader and purge the trots. Had he not done so then we'd probably have Wrong-Daily as leader and Boris would be stepping corruption up to ever greater levels. I was a nobody, I could quit. Starmer could not.
"Fight the cancer" by twice campaigning for it to become Prime Minister.
Give over. Jezbollah had as much chance of becoming PM as you did.
Yes, that was the line spun on the doorsteps by Labour canvassers in 2017. And it very nearly worked for them.
Mr. Pioneers, worth recalling Corbyn came within a few thousand votes of Number 10.
Responding to both of you - this is the same nonsense pushed by the Corbyn supporters. May took the majority vote from 2015 and increased it by more than 20%. Inefficiently sure, hence losing the majority. But plenty to stay in office regardless of what Labour did.
There is a difference between mathematical theories and political realities. Mathematically Labour could have formed a rainbow coalition in 2010 and stayed in power. Politically please stop laughing. Same with any notion in 2017 that Corbyn could put together any kind of coalition or even supply deal to take power, even with a few more seats.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The problem is that Labour supporters tend to be the same. Look at all the Labour figures who defended Corbyn whilst he was leader - including Starmer. It's their team, so they'll defend it whatever.
Something needs to change. As I have admitted honestly, I did fall into this trap and intend never to do so again. So I say this as somebody who has come from that place, something has to be done.
IMV there are several aspects to this. I'd like to see a little more compassion. Politicians are people too, and make mistakes. Some mistakes can be forgivable, especially when acted on with limited information (see Covid etc), or in fraught circumstances. Persecuting people who make honest well-meant mistakes just causes people to hide stuff, and that's bad for everyone.
And that means as much for your opponents as your side.
I had been increasingly and vocally unhappy for a while. My naïve 'back the underdog' approach had led me to briefly back Corbyn followed by a rapid "what have I done" and then horror as what appeared to be a tidal wave of trots poured into the party both locally and nationally.
I went to the CLP antisemitism training session - a mandatory meeting imposed on all CLPs by HQ in response to the increasing furore about what Jeremy was saying and who he was associating with. The party training document had a strident definition of AS and why it was wrong signed by Jeremy. And as trots foamed on in anger at some good friends' contributions in the meeting, I read again the AS definition signed by JC, and looked at the photos of JC marching behind a clearly AS banner next to AS signs, which his own document said was AS, felt this cleansing calm, stood up and walked out of the meeting and the Labour Party.
You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. Replace Jeremy as leader and purge the trots. Had he not done so then we'd probably have Wrong-Daily as leader and Boris would be stepping corruption up to ever greater levels. I was a nobody, I could quit. Starmer could not.
"You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. "
That's not a very convincing excuse IMO. Starmer stayed in because he wanted to be leader.
Do you stay to reform an organisation or abandon it?
History says that leaving the Labour Party out of principal lengthened the period, in the 80s when Labour previous made itself unelectable. And didn’t get the leavers (ha!) into power either.
If Starmer & Co. had redone the Gang Of Four, Corbynism would have lasted much longer.
Then anti Corbyn Labour MPs Berger and Umunna did try and recreate the gang of 4 with Pro EU Tory MPs like Soubry but rather CUKed it up!
The answer might be "several years ago" of course. These things don't tend to occur at the first time of asking, and are based on a long relationship. Which can be spun negatively.
In the interview he confirms the position became available in October so it is likely that sometime since then he contacted her
He also confirmed he knew her before he came into politics but that is not the issue
He has cultivated a narrative of integrity but looks evasive when I do not understand why he cannot just confirm the date and end the matter
You're trying to ramp this, like you did Beergate.
It's simple. Her day job in the Civil Service will be, unsurprisingly, a politically restricted post, ie it stops her taking part in political activity in her personal life. She has to provide impartial advice to whomever is in government. There's been testimony from Tory politicians that this is what she has done impeccably.
When she stops being a civil servant, she is free to get involved in politics. Ok, so she was very senior so there's a case for ACOBA to look at her appointment. But that doesn't mean she can't have discussions about taking up a new role whilst still being a civil servant - as long as she continues to do her day job impartially. If Starmer's known her for ages why shouldn't they talk about him giving her a job?
Other than those with swivelling eyeballs who have sold their souls to Johnson, there is no suggestion she has ever not been impartial and professional in her role in the civil service. Indeed, at the time her report was released many of those now attacking her praised the report, and her, for her fairness and balance, including Johnson himself.
The suggestion that because she has decided to work for Starmer means her previous work is somehow suspect, or biased, or part of a Labour plot, is poor. This is desperate stuff from Johnson's rotten cabal.
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The problem is that Labour supporters tend to be the same. Look at all the Labour figures who defended Corbyn whilst he was leader - including Starmer. It's their team, so they'll defend it whatever.
Something needs to change. As I have admitted honestly, I did fall into this trap and intend never to do so again. So I say this as somebody who has come from that place, something has to be done.
IMV there are several aspects to this. I'd like to see a little more compassion. Politicians are people too, and make mistakes. Some mistakes can be forgivable, especially when acted on with limited information (see Covid etc), or in fraught circumstances. Persecuting people who make honest well-meant mistakes just causes people to hide stuff, and that's bad for everyone.
And that means as much for your opponents as your side.
I had been increasingly and vocally unhappy for a while. My naïve 'back the underdog' approach had led me to briefly back Corbyn followed by a rapid "what have I done" and then horror as what appeared to be a tidal wave of trots poured into the party both locally and nationally.
I went to the CLP antisemitism training session - a mandatory meeting imposed on all CLPs by HQ in response to the increasing furore about what Jeremy was saying and who he was associating with. The party training document had a strident definition of AS and why it was wrong signed by Jeremy. And as trots foamed on in anger at some good friends' contributions in the meeting, I read again the AS definition signed by JC, and looked at the photos of JC marching behind a clearly AS banner next to AS signs, which his own document said was AS, felt this cleansing calm, stood up and walked out of the meeting and the Labour Party.
You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. Replace Jeremy as leader and purge the trots. Had he not done so then we'd probably have Wrong-Daily as leader and Boris would be stepping corruption up to ever greater levels. I was a nobody, I could quit. Starmer could not.
"You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. "
That's not a very convincing excuse IMO. Starmer stayed in because he wanted to be leader.
Do you stay to reform an organisation or abandon it?
History says that leaving the Labour Party out of principal lengthened the period, in the 80s when Labour previous made itself unelectable. And didn’t get the leavers (ha!) into power either.
If Starmer & Co. had redone the Gang Of Four, Corbynism would have lasted much longer.
Would you stay in an organisation that had (to take a very extreme example) Hitler as leader, in hope of being able to reform it?
If your are against a wrong, or an evil, you get out. You do not become complicit.
Imagine if Corbyn had won in 2019 - as he might have done, with a few small changes. One of those changes are the brave people in Labour who did make a noise, who did leave, helped Corbyn lose.
The answer might be "several years ago" of course. These things don't tend to occur at the first time of asking, and are based on a long relationship. Which can be spun negatively.
In the interview he confirms the position became available in October so it is likely that sometime since then he contacted her
He also confirmed he knew her before he came into politics but that is not the issue
He has cultivated a narrative of integrity but looks evasive when I do not understand why he cannot just confirm the date and end the matter
Oh, yes - I think he's doing exactly the wrong thing. "Obviously, I've known Sue since before I went into politics. I have wanted to work with her for a long time. This position became available in October and I/[whoever] contacted her [in]formally about it at that time. She was one of a very short list of candidates and I'm delighted she accepted." would seem reasonable, as you can then repeat it ad nauseam depending on which part the interviewer decides to press on.
You'd have thought that there would be a script for this?
I understand Civil Servants have moved into these positions many times before ... but the appointment of Sue Gray (notwithstanding her personal qualities) does look to me like a Labour mistake, because she ended up playing an important role in defenestration of a Tory PM.
It looks wrong, even if isn't.
The way it looks is very important in politics.
I'm confused. When the Gray report came out it exonerated Boris Johnson. A whitewash that didn't even investigate the dodgy stuff. Lauded by Johnson and his cabinet and PB Tories as a definitive line drawn and lets move on.
Yet now it, and not Pinchergate, actually brought him down?
Let us be honest about the utterly desperate and embarrassing position the Tory Party is in.
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
The problem is that Labour supporters tend to be the same. Look at all the Labour figures who defended Corbyn whilst he was leader - including Starmer. It's their team, so they'll defend it whatever.
Something needs to change. As I have admitted honestly, I did fall into this trap and intend never to do so again. So I say this as somebody who has come from that place, something has to be done.
IMV there are several aspects to this. I'd like to see a little more compassion. Politicians are people too, and make mistakes. Some mistakes can be forgivable, especially when acted on with limited information (see Covid etc), or in fraught circumstances. Persecuting people who make honest well-meant mistakes just causes people to hide stuff, and that's bad for everyone.
And that means as much for your opponents as your side.
I had been increasingly and vocally unhappy for a while. My naïve 'back the underdog' approach had led me to briefly back Corbyn followed by a rapid "what have I done" and then horror as what appeared to be a tidal wave of trots poured into the party both locally and nationally.
I went to the CLP antisemitism training session - a mandatory meeting imposed on all CLPs by HQ in response to the increasing furore about what Jeremy was saying and who he was associating with. The party training document had a strident definition of AS and why it was wrong signed by Jeremy. And as trots foamed on in anger at some good friends' contributions in the meeting, I read again the AS definition signed by JC, and looked at the photos of JC marching behind a clearly AS banner next to AS signs, which his own document said was AS, felt this cleansing calm, stood up and walked out of the meeting and the Labour Party.
You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. Replace Jeremy as leader and purge the trots. Had he not done so then we'd probably have Wrong-Daily as leader and Boris would be stepping corruption up to ever greater levels. I was a nobody, I could quit. Starmer could not.
"You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. "
That's not a very convincing excuse IMO. Starmer stayed in because he wanted to be leader.
Do you stay to reform an organisation or abandon it?
History says that leaving the Labour Party out of principal lengthened the period, in the 80s when Labour previous made itself unelectable. And didn’t get the leavers (ha!) into power either.
If Starmer & Co. had redone the Gang Of Four, Corbynism would have lasted much longer.
Perhaps. For a start, a Starmerless Labour in the 2017 parliament may have had a different approach on a certain key issue to the one he spearheaded which was the primary cause of the early election (and, indeed, of making Boris PM in the first place).
Comments
No way are Bangladesh getting 100 from the last 10 overs!
In walks Taijul Islam. Have England's bowlers been making plans for him?
Train derailment caught on dashcam.
https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1632213874639355905
Under PR Boris would leave the Tories for RefUK the next day
Brown was a details man, and it meant he couldn't see the wood for the trees. Boris can't even see the trees.
The Conservatives should just flush him away.
Phase 1: Become PM
Phase 2: ?
Phase 3: Make Britain Great Again!
https://southpark.fandom.com/wiki/Underpants_Gnomes
So what dos that say about the Conservative Party that let the fetid contents of the toilet bowl run the country?
A PM fined for lying and then sacked by his own MPs for lying, is now being defended by the very people that sacked him on the grounds he was "stitched up". This is post truth, it is lies, they are playing the public for absolute fools.
The Tory Party needs to go and re-discover honesty and integrity as clearly right now it is completely bankrupt of it.
Before the Tories had collective amnesia/lied to the public, they nearly all praised Sue Gray for her work. Boris Johnson was the one that appointed her. MPs including JRM, Johnson, Sunak all said she had produced a fair report and that it had got Johnson off the hook. Many on the left said it was a white-wash/very lenient.
So now the Tories expect us to forget all of that and tell us that parties Boris Johnson said didn't happen, not only did happen but he was stitched up by Labour and Sue Gray because he chose to attend them.
They must think we are absolute idiots. And some people are happily cheering this on. This is Trump politics, that is what it is. It must be eradicated now and fast.
He wants to rule the world and he ain't going to manage that via leadership of RefUK.
It is either leading the Cons in govt or making a ton of money from his extra-curricular activities.
***Sunak's small boats plan - the challenges***
1. Illegal migration bill will make all asylum claims from those who have come indirectly to UK 'inadmissible'
But this will inevitably be subject to legal challenge and potential judicial review. It will affect genuine refugees
These are human beings we are now denying their rights to. This will end badly.
Ministers will introduce new powers to enable mass detention of migrants
BUT Article 5 of ECHR states there must be a 'realistic prospect of removal'
Given Rwanda not up and running - and capacity issues - this will inevitably create legal issues
These are human beings not cattle - very "guilty until proven innocent" feeling about this.
I want to see this issue resolved - but none of the policies the Tories are putting forward will. They want a fight with the courts to get a poll boost. It stinks.
I really think people like you and @RochdalePioneers need some experience of living in a genuinely corrupt country. This is not one. The systems work slowly, frustratingly slowly at times, but they work.
Your problem is that your interest in democracy goes as far as "how do I keep the Conservative Party in power".
And your party as we're all discussing in endemically corrupt and morally bankrupt. It is possible to have personal morality and say "I can't associate myself with this any more". And you'd feel much better if you did so. And yet you don't, and keep finding excuses as to why you should stay.
I don't expect a clear answer why, I am just fascinated by it. Or perhaps, when you finally snap and walk away you will look back on these events - as I did with the later stuff with Labour - and wonder what on earth you had been reduced to defending *that*.
And yes I am glad we have Sunak over the moron Johnson.
And that is just one example. OK so we don't yet need to bribe the police and council officials. But its not thanks to the ruling party who positively encourage cesspool politics.
Egregious billions stolen corruption is still egregious corruption. That other countries are more corrupt doesn't suddenly mean that our corruption is not corruption and we should just pooh-pooh it.
And that means as much for your opponents as your side.
Dan Hodges and the Mail this morning are obsessed with Keir and his appointing Sue Gray. They are trying this as their next "beergate" issue. You are I am afraid, missing what is going on.
In Labour's case something Keir has done is make it basically impossible for Corbyn to ever get enough nominations again. The Tories need to do something similar, perhaps MPs should have the decision and the public should not?
Something has gone very wrong.
Let us also not forget it is Starmer who has got Sue Gray, previously an impartial civil servant, to now work for him
He is just evasive in this interview
https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1632672778808709120?t=OhsPx12KFoBtz9-GHBq7-w&s=19
I went to the CLP antisemitism training session - a mandatory meeting imposed on all CLPs by HQ in response to the increasing furore about what Jeremy was saying and who he was associating with. The party training document had a strident definition of AS and why it was wrong signed by Jeremy. And as trots foamed on in anger at some good friends' contributions in the meeting, I read again the AS definition signed by JC, and looked at the photos of JC marching behind a clearly AS banner next to AS signs, which his own document said was AS, felt this cleansing calm, stood up and walked out of the meeting and the Labour Party.
You can't say "ah but Keir Starmer" because for someone in his position the national interest is to stay and fight the cancer. Replace Jeremy as leader and purge the trots. Had he not done so then we'd probably have Wrong-Daily as leader and Boris would be stepping corruption up to ever greater levels. I was a nobody, I could quit. Starmer could not.
that many of the general public don't like refugees in any quantity, (currently unless they are from Hong Kong or Ukraine);
that about 2 or 3 billion people have some sort of potential asylum claim under international law, a tiny % of whom will make it;
and that if people do arrive here, there is nowhere else to put people with lawful claims but the UK, and no reason why we should place the burden on countries with far more refugee problems than we do.
Therefore there is no 'solution' short of a better governed world. It can only be managed, with each interest group only mentioning the truths that they favour, boring the rest of us to death.
Johnson *could* have been a good PM, and he got some big calls right. But to be a good PM, he needed to learn from his mistakes; for instance that bluster was not a good way of running the country. It was clear before he became PM that he would not learn - and the flaws so visible beforehand brought him down.
Though I would change the rules of both the Conservative and Labour parties so that only the party's MPs pick the PM in power when they have a Commons majority. In opposition members can still get the final say as the new leader would have to then be elected by the voters at a general election
Bored yet? The country is.
That's not a very convincing excuse IMO. Starmer stayed in because he wanted to be leader.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/05/matt-hancock-rejected-covid-self-isolation-advice/
"Matt Hancock rejected advice from England’s Chief Medical Officer to replace the 14-day Covid quarantine with five days of testing because it would “imply we’ve been getting it wrong”.
Mr Hancock was told by Prof Sir Chris Whitty in Nov 2020 it would be “pretty well as good” for contacts of positive Covid cases to test for five days “in lieu” of a fortnight’s isolation. WhatsApp messages between the two men have also revealed that the 14-day quarantine period had likely been “too long all along”. "
*chuckle*
I rest my case.
It clearly has worked, because the Board of Deputies, JLM and EHRC have all said he has gripped and resolved the issue. So what he did was right, people are too political to actually accept that, however.
Also, remember his wife is Jewish.
The other opponents were RLB and Burgon, do you think they would have resolved the problem? Lisa Nandy had no chance of winning because she did your counter-factual and resigned, the members never trusted her again.
Keir did the right thing.
Had Starmer done that. Reeves. Milliband. Any of the senior team. Then the country loses the party as a force and opens the door to more Tory corruption.
That is what this all comes down to. When the government is as corrupt as this one is, someone has to oppose them. Politics is always shades of grey anyway, so its justifying backing *that* to avoid a worse *this*.
He also confirmed he knew her before he came into politics but that is not the issue
He has cultivated a narrative of integrity but looks evasive when I do not understand why he cannot just confirm the date and end the matter
Anyone else sensing the current mood shift in tone and political narrative, as Tory’s on PB, in Con Home, out canvassing and just about Everywhere All At Once getting very bullish over how well this Tory fight back is going?
Maybe it’s been a mistake to watch polls so closely for signs of movement, maybe the first signs of the big polling shift and switcheroo in the polls actually indicated by a change of mood and growing confidence we pick up like this from party activists, canvassers and supporters?
It’s real. This is happening.
He did it for himself. Now, there's nothing wrong with that (as long as you're honest about it), but if he was really a pioneering campaigner against the evils of anti-Semitism, he would not have been in the same room as Corbyn.
You'd have thought that there would be a script for this?
Remember Shami Chakrabarti
It looks wrong, even if isn't.
The way it looks is very important in politics.
The only real Corbyn supporters as far as I could tell in 2019 were me, Kinabalu and BJO
Suella is a psycho who is nourished by tears of suffering and only by tears of suffering so she'll be up for it but Sunak doesn't have the fortitude to play politics on hardcore mode.
That's the point: such conversations may or may not be corrupt, but they can easily be made to look corrupt. And as I said, Labour have recent form for this with the Shami sham.
Any meetings wrt the investigation should all be official ones. Meetings outside the investigation would be interesting.
I assume the plan is to pitch the Tories against the leftie establishment. "We would have stopped the boats had it not been for leftie lawyers, the courts, the Rwandans, the navy, the French, so vote for us and we promise to overcome all those enemies of the people in the way we utterly failed to do for the last 14 years" etc etc
"Stop the Boats" only has any prospect of being an electoral bonus if you actually stop the boats. Which you can't. So the group of people who still want the forrin to go home are hugely fed up with you, and the majority who have brains are hugely fed up with you.
Farage is going to demolish you over this policy failure.
History says that leaving the Labour Party out of principal lengthened the period, in the 80s when Labour previous made itself unelectable. And didn’t get the leavers (ha!) into power either.
If Starmer & Co. had redone the Gang Of Four, Corbynism would have lasted much longer.
As I say, remember Shami.
There is a difference between mathematical theories and political realities. Mathematically Labour could have formed a rainbow coalition in 2010 and stayed in power. Politically please stop laughing. Same with any notion in 2017 that Corbyn could put together any kind of coalition or even supply deal to take power, even with a few more seats.
If the public should have any concerns about her appointment it is that she protects the PM as best she can, not that she stitches them up.
It's simple. Her day job in the Civil Service will be, unsurprisingly, a politically restricted post, ie it stops her taking part in political activity in her personal life. She has to provide impartial advice to whomever is in government. There's been testimony from Tory politicians that this is what she has done impeccably.
When she stops being a civil servant, she is free to get involved in politics. Ok, so she was very senior so there's a case for ACOBA to look at her appointment. But that doesn't mean she can't have discussions about taking up a new role whilst still being a civil servant - as long as she continues to do her day job impartially. If Starmer's known her for ages why shouldn't they talk about him giving her a job?
Other than those with swivelling eyeballs who have sold their souls to Johnson, there is no suggestion she has ever not been impartial and professional in her role in the civil service. Indeed, at the time her report was released many of those now attacking her praised the report, and her, for her fairness and balance, including Johnson himself.
The suggestion that because she has decided to work for Starmer means her previous work is somehow suspect, or biased, or part of a Labour plot, is poor. This is desperate stuff from Johnson's rotten cabal.
If your are against a wrong, or an evil, you get out. You do not become complicit.
Imagine if Corbyn had won in 2019 - as he might have done, with a few small changes. One of those changes are the brave people in Labour who did make a noise, who did leave, helped Corbyn lose.
Yet now it, and not Pinchergate, actually brought him down?