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We should wait before reaching polling conclusions – politicalbetting.com

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  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    Nigelb said:
    Just finished the last of the series last month when Bryant died, really enjoyable books. Sad loss. RIP
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    ping said:

    Just caught the news about ARM.

    How bloody depressing.

    These free trade tories have been naive in the extreme. They wouldn’t know the national interest if it smacked them in the face.

    To be fair, there was never much chance of ARM listing on the LSE. It really hasn't got anything much to do with the government.
    While that's true, it was also reported that the valuation discount for new listings in London versus the US has widened significantly since Brexit.
    Yes, fair point.
    I don't particularly want to belabour the Brexit element, as we're unlikely to be able to address that anytime soon anyway, but it's a very real issue for keeping and growing new tech businesses in the UK.
    It certainly doesn't help, that's for sure. But ARM's choice of which market to list on is only very peripherally related to Brexit. The huge liquidity and valuation gap between London and NY for hi-tech businesses existed long before Brexit.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    She didn't "bring down Boris"; that's just Tory spin.

    And the appointment is about preparing government, not contesting this month's headlines.
    Labour have been out of power for well over a decade. If they are to govern in any way effectively, they need people like Gray.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    kinabalu said:

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    Gray didn't bring down Johnson though.
    Is that how it's generally perceived, though?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,297

    Leon said:

    Has any PB-er tried this miracle weight loss drug Ozempic?

    As avowed by Jez Clarkson, most of Hollywood, and now David Aaronovitch in today’s Times?

    It sounds amazing. And I’ve just discovered that a chunky female relative of mine has been on it for 5 weeks and has lost 10 pounds (without trying). And she has struggled with weight all of her life

    I’ve got 12 pounds of Covid lard that will not shift. I’m gonna try this

    The big issue with it as far as I can see is that until Novo Nordisk scales up production, the more the drug is used to help people lose weight the tougher it will be for diabetics to get it. Surely the latter have to be the priority.

    Why? Obesity is a much bigger health crisis
  • The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    I think Starmer thought that Gray would be a great appointment because (in his mind) she stands for integrity and so the sheen would rub off on Labour. What he didn't seem to have taken into account is how this would look re Gray and her verdict on Johnson.

    For me, Starmer is not clever, he is just very lucky. His proactive decisions are actually not great but he seems to have a knack of being in the right place at the right time. That is all that may count.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,839
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Has any PB-er tried this miracle weight loss drug Ozempic?

    As avowed by Jez Clarkson, most of Hollywood, and now David Aaronovitch in today’s Times?

    It sounds amazing. And I’ve just discovered that a chunky female relative of mine has been on it for 5 weeks and has lost 10 pounds (without trying). And she has struggled with weight all of her life

    I’ve got 12 pounds of Covid lard that will not shift. I’m gonna try this

    The big issue with it as far as I can see is that until Novo Nordisk scales up production, the more the drug is used to help people lose weight the tougher it will be for diabetics to get it. Surely the latter have to be the priority.

    Why? Obesity is a much bigger health crisis
    Hmm, one reason for that is diabetes. Who are often obese people who need the drug more urgently than other obese people.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited March 2023
    carnforth said:


    ARM will list in the US mainly because they think they can get valued like a growth tech stock (when really they are a mature company with a revenue stream which isn't much like a tech stock at all).

    Ping is right that we should have considered not allowing them to be sold to SoftBank, or insisted on a Golden Share.

    The next thing that will happen is they will move headquarters, though they claim not now. They already employ more people in the US than here.

    On what grounds do you think the UK government, subject at the time to EU law and the 2002 Enterprise Act, could have disallowed shareholders from selling ARM to SoftBank?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587

    carnforth said:


    ARM will list in the US mainly because they think they can get valued like a growth tech stock (when really they are a mature company with a revenue stream which isn't much like a tech stock at all).

    Ping is right that we should have considered not allowing them to be sold to SoftBank, or insisted on a Golden Share.

    The next thing that will happen is they will move headquarters, though they claim not now. They already employ more people in the US than here.

    On what grounds do you think the UK government, subject at the time to EU law and the 2002 Enterprise Act, could have disallowed shareholders from selling ARM to SoftBank?
    I have no idea if it were possible, only that it might have been desirable.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,220
    Nigelb said:

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    She didn't "bring down Boris"; that's just Tory spin.

    And the appointment is about preparing government, not contesting this month's headlines.
    Labour have been out of power for well over a decade. If they are to govern in any way effectively, they need people like Gray.
    Is it Official Conservative spin, or just coming from Boris's Mates?

    Jacob, Nadine and (please let it be so) Boris are yesterday's men and women.

    And no- the Gray report didn't bring down Bozza. Even if it should have done so. Lying about Pincher the Pincher shortly afterwards did that.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:


    ARM will list in the US mainly because they think they can get valued like a growth tech stock (when really they are a mature company with a revenue stream which isn't much like a tech stock at all).

    Ping is right that we should have considered not allowing them to be sold to SoftBank, or insisted on a Golden Share.

    The next thing that will happen is they will move headquarters, though they claim not now. They already employ more people in the US than here.

    On what grounds do you think the UK government, subject at the time to EU law and the 2002 Enterprise Act, could have disallowed shareholders from selling ARM to SoftBank?
    I have no idea if it were possible, only that it might have been desirable.
    Making a bigger offer might have done it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    ping said:

    Just caught the news about ARM.

    How bloody depressing.

    These free trade tories have been naive in the extreme. They wouldn’t know the national interest if it smacked them in the face.

    To be fair, there was never much chance of ARM listing on the LSE. It really hasn't got anything much to do with the government.
    While that's true, it was also reported that the valuation discount for new listings in London versus the US has widened significantly since Brexit.
    Yes, fair point.
    I don't particularly want to belabour the Brexit element, as we're unlikely to be able to address that anytime soon anyway, but it's a very real issue for keeping and growing new tech businesses in the UK.
    It certainly doesn't help, that's for sure. But ARM's choice of which market to list on is only very peripherally related to Brexit. The huge liquidity and valuation gap between London and NY for hi-tech businesses existed long before Brexit.
    I wasn't talking about ARM specifically.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    ping said:

    Just caught the news about ARM.

    How bloody depressing.

    These free trade tories have been naive in the extreme. They wouldn’t know the national interest if it smacked them in the face.

    To be fair, there was never much chance of ARM listing on the LSE. It really hasn't got anything much to do with the government.
    While that's true, it was also reported that the valuation discount for new listings in London versus the US has widened significantly since Brexit.
    Yes, fair point.
    The daily trading in Apple in the US is twice that of the whole LSE. I found that quite a striking stat to read today.
    Not surprised considering we can hardly get any tomatoes or cucumbers to market, let alone apples.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited March 2023

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    I think Starmer thought that Gray would be a great appointment because (in his mind) she stands for integrity and so the sheen would rub off on Labour. What he didn't seem to have taken into account is how this would look re Gray and her verdict on Johnson.

    For me, Starmer is not clever, he is just very lucky. His proactive decisions are actually not great but he seems to have a knack of being in the right place at the right time. That is all that may count.
    We only know who Sue Gray is because of the Sue Gray report. Therefore there’s a political football to kick around.

    I doubt the politics aspect featured very strongly in Starmer’s decision. He genuinely wants a labour government to be whiter than white. She is a key person who can make that happen.

    Of course that doesn’t mean there won’t still be scandals, but they’re likely to be few and far between.

    This has implications for betting markets, should Starmer become PM.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,899
    Arm co-founder: Britain's chip strat 'couldn’t be any worse'

    Lack of route to domestic semiconductor supply best of British stuffup, says Urquhart

    https://www.theregister.com/2023/03/02/uk_govt_criticized_arm_founder/

    Speaking of ARM.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Scott_xP said:

    @mikeysmith: I mean, if I was Sue Gray I'd be lawyering up and waiting for payday at this point. https://twitter.com/JackElsom/status/1631629355003654144

    I know the tactic is to suggest that any evidence or allegations must be untrue because this woman has now taken a job with Starmer, but it really doesn't make any sense to in effect claim she has manufactured it all somehow, as if she forced all them to act and took the photos etc.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,811
    Leon said:

    Has any PB-er tried this miracle weight loss drug Ozempic?

    As avowed by Jez Clarkson, most of Hollywood, and now David Aaronovitch in today’s Times?

    It sounds amazing. And I’ve just discovered that a chunky female relative of mine has been on it for 5 weeks and has lost 10 pounds (without trying). And she has struggled with weight all of her life

    I’ve got 12 pounds of Covid lard that will not shift. I’m gonna try this

    I have a colleague who has taken it for a while, he said it's been great for getting the weight down but it has taken all of the enjoyment of food out of life for him. I think for someone like you where going to a great restaurant and enjoying the food it will probably be a big hit to your life quality vs doing a bit of extra exercise.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,136
    Driver said:

    kinabalu said:

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    Gray didn't bring down Johnson though.
    Is that how it's generally perceived, though?
    Yes, I think so. He's perceived to have brought himself down. Only hardcore Johnson fans of a conspiratorial mindset buy into a betrayal or stitch-up narrative.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Driver said:

    kinabalu said:

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    Gray didn't bring down Johnson though.
    Is that how it's generally perceived, though?
    I don't know, but the obvious intent from Boris here is to go a) She's a wrong 'un, therefore b) everything was made up and I should be brought back. It's bullcrap.

    As for the allegations of PB bias that was mentioned, plenty of people have said this is not a great appointment due to perceptions, so there's yet more invented reasons for whinging.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Has any PB-er tried this miracle weight loss drug Ozempic?

    As avowed by Jez Clarkson, most of Hollywood, and now David Aaronovitch in today’s Times?

    It sounds amazing. And I’ve just discovered that a chunky female relative of mine has been on it for 5 weeks and has lost 10 pounds (without trying). And she has struggled with weight all of her life

    I’ve got 12 pounds of Covid lard that will not shift. I’m gonna try this

    I have a colleague who has taken it for a while, he said it's been great for getting the weight down but it has taken all of the enjoyment of food out of life for him. I think for someone like you where going to a great restaurant and enjoying the food it will probably be a big hit to your life quality vs doing a bit of extra exercise.
    There's also reportedly a rebound effect if you come off it.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    Starmer's appointment of Sue Gray is either very clever or very stupid, perhaps depending on how one views Boris's prospects.
    kinabalu said:

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    Gray didn't bring down Johnson though.
    Agreed.

    I think what's interesting here is Starmer's (and Gray's) supreme confidence. I don't think the appointment will be terribly well-received in Labour circles. It's not great for Starmer's party unity in that regard. It does give a bit of succour to Bojo and the wider Tory Party by calling into question whether Graynwas already in discussions with the LOTO when she was reporting on the PM. But Starmer and Gray are disregarding all those irksome factors because they are 100% confident that Starmer is bound for Number 10. Make no mistake, Gray would not be messing around with Starmer to be Chief of Staff to the LOTO. Getting really tinfoily, perhaps the reason for getting Gray in now (or soon) is because they foresee a more sudden end to the dismal decline manager's premiership than we do. Perhaps Gray intends to steer Starmer through a GE, and events are bejng orchestrated that will lead to Sunak declaring one? Though it's nore likely they just did not know when Gray would be released to start her job.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    I think Starmer thought that Gray would be a great appointment because (in his mind) she stands for integrity and so the sheen would rub off on Labour. What he didn't seem to have taken into account is how this would look re Gray and her verdict on Johnson.

    For me, Starmer is not clever, he is just very lucky. His proactive decisions are actually not great but he seems to have a knack of being in the right place at the right time. That is all that may count.
    TBH I think it's a good appointment in the abstract, but with the added bonus of further causing the Tories to rip each other apart and re-highlight their chronic moral incontinence as an institution - and well timed to distract from the fact that the PM has finally managed to achieve something half-decent.

    They're just a little way short of the full Prince Andrew Interview level of self-own here.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    edited March 2023

    Nigelb said:

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    She didn't "bring down Boris"; that's just Tory spin.

    And the appointment is about preparing government, not contesting this month's headlines.
    Labour have been out of power for well over a decade. If they are to govern in any way effectively, they need people like Gray.
    Is it Official Conservative spin, or just coming from Boris's Mates?

    Jacob, Nadine and (please let it be so) Boris are yesterday's men and women.

    And no- the Gray report didn't bring down Bozza. Even if it should have done so. Lying about Pincher the Pincher shortly afterwards did that.
    100 MPs count as the Boris mate faction, the one's so committed to him they wanted him back even after he resigned, whether or not every single one of them is talking now - its the most committed who are floating it is all. That's the bare minimum who likely believe this stuff, with more likely to go along with it if they think it will avoid a blazing internal row between Borisites and Sunakites (since if Boris is punished he will not go down quietly). The rest of them not in Boris's corner will nod and wink at the things the others are saying, if it minimises internal trouble.

    No one really remembers Pincher for some reason.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,811
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    ping said:

    Just caught the news about ARM.

    How bloody depressing.

    These free trade tories have been naive in the extreme. They wouldn’t know the national interest if it smacked them in the face.

    To be fair, there was never much chance of ARM listing on the LSE. It really hasn't got anything much to do with the government.
    While that's true, it was also reported that the valuation discount for new listings in London versus the US has widened significantly since Brexit.
    Yes, fair point.
    I don't particularly want to belabour the Brexit element, as we're unlikely to be able to address that anytime soon anyway, but it's a very real issue for keeping and growing new tech businesses in the UK.
    It's a completely different issue, the risk appetite among British investors is just very low, we've become a feeble nation that is too scared of losing what little it has left to invest in our future. UK investors are among the most dividend hungry in the world and UK companies are among the highest yielding in the world and show significantly lower capital growth to feed the dividend appetite among investors.

    A big factor in this is private sector DB pension funds which are among the worst for future liabilities in the world. It has left UK PLC completely unable to invest and investment funds unable to go for higher risk capital profit vs boring reliable dividend yield.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited March 2023
    As I forecast earlier, they're likely to abide by any recommendation ACOBA makes (there's no actual obligation to do so).
    Two years would be almost unprecedented, FWIW.

    ... Labour will delay the controversial appointment of Sue Gray as Keir Starmer’s chief of staff beyond the next election if that is the recommendation of a government committee, according to a member of the shadow cabinet.

    Lucy Powell, the shadow culture secretary, said the party would accept the guidance of the Advisory Committee on Business Appointments, even if it recommends Gray delays her start date by the maximum period of two years...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,297
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Has any PB-er tried this miracle weight loss drug Ozempic?

    As avowed by Jez Clarkson, most of Hollywood, and now David Aaronovitch in today’s Times?

    It sounds amazing. And I’ve just discovered that a chunky female relative of mine has been on it for 5 weeks and has lost 10 pounds (without trying). And she has struggled with weight all of her life

    I’ve got 12 pounds of Covid lard that will not shift. I’m gonna try this

    I have a colleague who has taken it for a while, he said it's been great for getting the weight down but it has taken all of the enjoyment of food out of life for him. I think for someone like you where going to a great restaurant and enjoying the food it will probably be a big hit to your life quality vs doing a bit of extra exercise.

    My relative says this is not her experience

    She still really enjoys food, she just eats less

    But I hear you: I will do a short term experiment
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Has any PB-er tried this miracle weight loss drug Ozempic?

    As avowed by Jez Clarkson, most of Hollywood, and now David Aaronovitch in today’s Times?

    It sounds amazing. And I’ve just discovered that a chunky female relative of mine has been on it for 5 weeks and has lost 10 pounds (without trying). And she has struggled with weight all of her life

    I’ve got 12 pounds of Covid lard that will not shift. I’m gonna try this

    The big issue with it as far as I can see is that until Novo Nordisk scales up production, the more the drug is used to help people lose weight the tougher it will be for diabetics to get it. Surely the latter have to be the priority.

    Why? Obesity is a much bigger health crisis
    Hmm, one reason for that is diabetes. Who are often obese people who need the drug more urgently than other obese people.
    Type 1 diabetes will not be helped by a weight loss drug. Type 2, you need to change your diet and lifestyle radically to reverse the condition. This is not an essential for that, but by the sounds of it can aid people who struggle with willpower.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    Driver said:

    kinabalu said:

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    Gray didn't bring down Johnson though.
    Is that how it's generally perceived, though?
    I don't think so - 70% of the population have already made their minds up that Johnson can barely speak without lying. If and when the Privileges Committee comes to exactly the same conclusions as Sue Gray then that pretty much vindicates her.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited March 2023

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    Starmer's appointment of Sue Gray is either very clever or very stupid, perhaps depending on how one views Boris's prospects.
    kinabalu said:

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    Gray didn't bring down Johnson though.
    Agreed.

    I think what's interesting here is Starmer's (and Gray's) supreme confidence. I don't think the appointment will be terribly well-received in Labour circles. It's not great for Starmer's party unity in that regard. It does give a bit of succour to Bojo and the wider Tory Party by calling into question whether Graynwas already in discussions with the LOTO when she was reporting on the PM. But Starmer and Gray are disregarding all those irksome factors because they are 100% confident that Starmer is bound for Number 10. Make no mistake, Gray would not be messing around with Starmer to be Chief of Staff to the LOTO. Getting really tinfoily, perhaps the reason for getting Gray in now (or soon) is because they foresee a more sudden end to the dismal decline manager's premiership than we do. Perhaps Gray intends to steer Starmer through a GE, and events are bejng orchestrated that will lead to Sunak declaring one? Though it's nore likely they just did not know when Gray would be released to start her job.
    I assume Starmer wanted her on board before the candidate selection process really got going.

    An early GE doesn’t look likely to me. I don’t see the signs it looks likely to Starmer, either.
  • ping said:

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    I think Starmer thought that Gray would be a great appointment because (in his mind) she stands for integrity and so the sheen would rub off on Labour. What he didn't seem to have taken into account is how this would look re Gray and her verdict on Johnson.

    For me, Starmer is not clever, he is just very lucky. His proactive decisions are actually not great but he seems to have a knack of being in the right place at the right time. That is all that may count.
    We only know who Sue Gray is because of the Sue Gray report. Therefore there’s a political football to kick around.

    I doubt the politics aspect featured very strongly in Starmer’s decision. He genuinely wants a labour government to be whiter than white. She is a key person who can make that happen.

    Of course that doesn’t mean there won’t still be scandals, but they’re likely to be few and far between.

    This has implications for betting markets, should Starmer become PM.
    I think that though reflects on his skills - he is more tactical than strategic. This is a very good tactical move, I'm not sure how good it is as a strategic move.

    For example, by making this move, he's probably managed to undermine the Commins enquiry into Johnson. Gray + Harman leading the enquiry. Mmmmm
  • The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    Starmer's appointment of Sue Gray is either very clever or very stupid, perhaps depending on how one views Boris's prospects.
    kinabalu said:

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    Gray didn't bring down Johnson though.
    Agreed.

    I think what's interesting here is Starmer's (and Gray's) supreme confidence. I don't think the appointment will be terribly well-received in Labour circles. It's not great for Starmer's party unity in that regard. It does give a bit of succour to Bojo and the wider Tory Party by calling into question whether Graynwas already in discussions with the LOTO when she was reporting on the PM. But Starmer and Gray are disregarding all those irksome factors because they are 100% confident that Starmer is bound for Number 10. Make no mistake, Gray would not be messing around with Starmer to be Chief of Staff to the LOTO. Getting really tinfoily, perhaps the reason for getting Gray in now (or soon) is because they foresee a more sudden end to the dismal decline manager's premiership than we do. Perhaps Gray intends to steer Starmer through a GE, and events are bejng orchestrated that will lead to Sunak declaring one? Though it's nore likely they just did not know when Gray would be released to start her job.
    Sudden end to the dismal decline manager is pure Reform rhetoric and is not remotely likely

    Indeed I expect Sunak to become more established over the coming months as we witness the downfall of Johnson

    Indeed if we had not had the pitiful Truss then conservatives under Sunak would be in a much stronger position
  • Ghedebrav said:

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    I think Starmer thought that Gray would be a great appointment because (in his mind) she stands for integrity and so the sheen would rub off on Labour. What he didn't seem to have taken into account is how this would look re Gray and her verdict on Johnson.

    For me, Starmer is not clever, he is just very lucky. His proactive decisions are actually not great but he seems to have a knack of being in the right place at the right time. That is all that may count.
    TBH I think it's a good appointment in the abstract, but with the added bonus of further causing the Tories to rip each other apart and re-highlight their chronic moral incontinence as an institution - and well timed to distract from the fact that the PM has finally managed to achieve something half-decent.

    They're just a little way short of the full Prince Andrew Interview level of self-own here.
    That's a tactical view - good for the short term.

    However, what happens if that facilitates Johnson's re-entry with the story he was stitched up, say 9 months down the line? Not looking so smart then.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,136

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    Starmer's appointment of Sue Gray is either very clever or very stupid, perhaps depending on how one views Boris's prospects.
    kinabalu said:

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    Gray didn't bring down Johnson though.
    Agreed.

    I think what's interesting here is Starmer's (and Gray's) supreme confidence. I don't think the appointment will be terribly well-received in Labour circles. It's not great for Starmer's party unity in that regard. It does give a bit of succour to Bojo and the wider Tory Party by calling into question whether Graynwas already in discussions with the LOTO when she was reporting on the PM. But Starmer and Gray are disregarding all those irksome factors because they are 100% confident that Starmer is bound for Number 10. Make no mistake, Gray would not be messing around with Starmer to be Chief of Staff to the LOTO. Getting really tinfoily, perhaps the reason for getting Gray in now (or soon) is because they foresee a more sudden end to the dismal decline manager's premiership than we do. Perhaps Gray intends to steer Starmer through a GE, and events are bejng orchestrated that will lead to Sunak declaring one? Though it's nore likely they just did not know when Gray would be released to start her job.
    Starmer Next PM @ 1.45 merits a place alongside Cash, Equities, Gold and Property in any balanced investment portfolio imo. I'd go for a weighting something like Cash 25% Equities 50% Gold 5% Property 5% Starmer 15% - but DYOR.
  • The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    Starmer's appointment of Sue Gray is either very clever or very stupid, perhaps depending on how one views Boris's prospects.
    kinabalu said:

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    Gray didn't bring down Johnson though.
    Agreed.

    I think what's interesting here is Starmer's (and Gray's) supreme confidence. I don't think the appointment will be terribly well-received in Labour circles. It's not great for Starmer's party unity in that regard. It does give a bit of succour to Bojo and the wider Tory Party by calling into question whether Graynwas already in discussions with the LOTO when she was reporting on the PM. But Starmer and Gray are disregarding all those irksome factors because they are 100% confident that Starmer is bound for Number 10. Make no mistake, Gray would not be messing around with Starmer to be Chief of Staff to the LOTO. Getting really tinfoily, perhaps the reason for getting Gray in now (or soon) is because they foresee a more sudden end to the dismal decline manager's premiership than we do. Perhaps Gray intends to steer Starmer through a GE, and events are bejng orchestrated that will lead to Sunak declaring one? Though it's nore likely they just did not know when Gray would be released to start her job.
    Sudden end to the dismal decline manager is pure Reform rhetoric and is not remotely likely

    Indeed I expect Sunak to become more established over the coming months as we witness the downfall of Johnson

    Indeed if we had not had the pitiful Truss then conservatives under Sunak would be in a much stronger position
    The economic data over the next 12 months will be more positive for the Government. Plus booming tax receipts mean they are likely to be generous heading into the election.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Has any PB-er tried this miracle weight loss drug Ozempic?

    As avowed by Jez Clarkson, most of Hollywood, and now David Aaronovitch in today’s Times?

    It sounds amazing. And I’ve just discovered that a chunky female relative of mine has been on it for 5 weeks and has lost 10 pounds (without trying). And she has struggled with weight all of her life

    I’ve got 12 pounds of Covid lard that will not shift. I’m gonna try this

    I have a colleague who has taken it for a while, he said it's been great for getting the weight down but it has taken all of the enjoyment of food out of life for him. I think for someone like you where going to a great restaurant and enjoying the food it will probably be a big hit to your life quality vs doing a bit of extra exercise.

    My relative says this is not her experience

    She still really enjoys food, she just eats less

    But I hear you: I will do a short term experiment
    I do handstands against a wall each night. When I'm up, I bend my arms doing a sort of vertical press up (not kissing the floor or anything, just what I can manage), and do progressively more as time goes on. I am up to between 50 and 60 now. Conbined with a fairly active lifestyle, and only having one meal a day in the week (two at weekends) that keeps me in shape.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    what happens if that facilitates Johnson's re-entry with the story he was stitched up, say 9 months down the line?

    It doesn't.

    BoZo claimed the Gray report vindicated him.

    The committee report is not based on the Gray report.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Leon said:

    My relative says this is not her experience

    She still really enjoys food, she just eats less

    But I hear you: I will do a short term experiment

    Also DA says he craves sugar now, as does his "penguin"
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Ghedebrav said:

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    I think Starmer thought that Gray would be a great appointment because (in his mind) she stands for integrity and so the sheen would rub off on Labour. What he didn't seem to have taken into account is how this would look re Gray and her verdict on Johnson.

    For me, Starmer is not clever, he is just very lucky. His proactive decisions are actually not great but he seems to have a knack of being in the right place at the right time. That is all that may count.
    TBH I think it's a good appointment in the abstract, but with the added bonus of further causing the Tories to rip each other apart and re-highlight their chronic moral incontinence as an institution - and well timed to distract from the fact that the PM has finally managed to achieve something half-decent.

    They're just a little way short of the full Prince Andrew Interview level of self-own here.
    That's a tactical view - good for the short term.

    However, what happens if that facilitates Johnson's re-entry with the story he was stitched up, say 9 months down the line? Not looking so smart then.
    Yes, no need to try for some look four moves ahead approach. Unnecessary distraction from when the report finally comes in, for a start.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434

    ping said:

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    I think Starmer thought that Gray would be a great appointment because (in his mind) she stands for integrity and so the sheen would rub off on Labour. What he didn't seem to have taken into account is how this would look re Gray and her verdict on Johnson.

    For me, Starmer is not clever, he is just very lucky. His proactive decisions are actually not great but he seems to have a knack of being in the right place at the right time. That is all that may count.
    We only know who Sue Gray is because of the Sue Gray report. Therefore there’s a political football to kick around.

    I doubt the politics aspect featured very strongly in Starmer’s decision. He genuinely wants a labour government to be whiter than white. She is a key person who can make that happen.

    Of course that doesn’t mean there won’t still be scandals, but they’re likely to be few and far between.

    This has implications for betting markets, should Starmer become PM.
    I think that though reflects on his skills - he is more tactical than strategic. This is a very good tactical move, I'm not sure how good it is as a strategic move.

    For example, by making this move, he's probably managed to undermine the Commins enquiry into Johnson. Gray + Harman leading the enquiry. Mmmmm
    If Truss hadn't existed, Sunak would have manoeuvred the other weakest candidate into the number 2 spot to try and beat them, and failed. So we might have PM Braverman.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,136

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Has any PB-er tried this miracle weight loss drug Ozempic?

    As avowed by Jez Clarkson, most of Hollywood, and now David Aaronovitch in today’s Times?

    It sounds amazing. And I’ve just discovered that a chunky female relative of mine has been on it for 5 weeks and has lost 10 pounds (without trying). And she has struggled with weight all of her life

    I’ve got 12 pounds of Covid lard that will not shift. I’m gonna try this

    I have a colleague who has taken it for a while, he said it's been great for getting the weight down but it has taken all of the enjoyment of food out of life for him. I think for someone like you where going to a great restaurant and enjoying the food it will probably be a big hit to your life quality vs doing a bit of extra exercise.

    My relative says this is not her experience

    She still really enjoys food, she just eats less

    But I hear you: I will do a short term experiment
    I do handstands against a wall each night. When I'm up, I bend my arms doing a sort of vertical press up (not kissing the floor or anything, just what I can manage), and do progressively more as time goes on. I am up to between 50 and 60 now. Conbined with a fairly active lifestyle, and only having one meal a day in the week (two at weekends) that keeps me in shape.
    Of all the factors correlated to long life being able to stand on your head is one of the strongest.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Scott_xP said:

    what happens if that facilitates Johnson's re-entry with the story he was stitched up, say 9 months down the line?

    It doesn't.

    BoZo claimed the Gray report vindicated him.

    The committee report is not based on the Gray report.
    You need to think like a Tory MP and average party member about this issue. How would a story of a stitch up play with them. regardless of veracity?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    kle4 said:

    You need to think like a Tory MP and average party member about this issue. How would a story of a stitch up play with them. regardless of veracity?

    ...
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Ghedebrav said:

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    I think Starmer thought that Gray would be a great appointment because (in his mind) she stands for integrity and so the sheen would rub off on Labour. What he didn't seem to have taken into account is how this would look re Gray and her verdict on Johnson.

    For me, Starmer is not clever, he is just very lucky. His proactive decisions are actually not great but he seems to have a knack of being in the right place at the right time. That is all that may count.
    TBH I think it's a good appointment in the abstract, but with the added bonus of further causing the Tories to rip each other apart and re-highlight their chronic moral incontinence as an institution - and well timed to distract from the fact that the PM has finally managed to achieve something half-decent.

    They're just a little way short of the full Prince Andrew Interview level of self-own here.
    That's a tactical view - good for the short term.

    However, what happens if that facilitates Johnson's re-entry with the story he was stitched up, say 9 months down the line? Not looking so smart then.
    I don't think the stitch-up story sticks though. And though he is apparently blind to it, he is not popular enough any more - Labour will beat a Boris-led party, and sooner as it would surely precipitate a GE. To use that lovely quote from TTOI - "[He's] gone from the man people love to hate, to the man people just hate. From Simon Cowell to Piers Morgan."
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434
    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    You need to think like a Tory MP and average party member about this issue. How would a story of a stitch up play with them. regardless of veracity?

    ...
    I remember taking the piss out of Boris a lot when these pics came out.
  • Ghedebrav said:

    I don't think the stitch-up story sticks though. And though he is apparently blind to it, he is not popular enough any more - Labour will beat a Boris-led party, and sooner as it would surely precipitate a GE. To use that lovely quote from TTOI - "[He's] gone from the man people love to hate, to the man people just hate. From Simon Cowell to Piers Morgan."

    I feel like Johnson has become Corbyn tbh
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:


    ARM will list in the US mainly because they think they can get valued like a growth tech stock (when really they are a mature company with a revenue stream which isn't much like a tech stock at all).

    Ping is right that we should have considered not allowing them to be sold to SoftBank, or insisted on a Golden Share.

    The next thing that will happen is they will move headquarters, though they claim not now. They already employ more people in the US than here.

    On what grounds do you think the UK government, subject at the time to EU law and the 2002 Enterprise Act, could have disallowed shareholders from selling ARM to SoftBank?
    I have no idea if it were possible, only that it might have been desirable.
    At the time it didn't look that bad a deal. Only with hindsight have people realised how badly SoftBank was run. The Arm bet on IoT was another issue. Arm fighting their biggest customer doesn't help much either. I don't have much optimism about Arm in the future.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    You need to think like a Tory MP and average party member about this issue. How would a story of a stitch up play with them. regardless of veracity?

    ...
    I remember taking the piss out of Boris a lot when these pics came out.
    The worst of the pics published today were not published at the time, and do not appear in the Gray report either
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    kle4 said:

    Driver said:

    kinabalu said:

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    Gray didn't bring down Johnson though.
    Is that how it's generally perceived, though?
    I don't know, but the obvious intent from Boris here is to go a) She's a wrong 'un, therefore b) everything was made up and I should be brought back. It's bullcrap.

    As for the allegations of PB bias that was mentioned, plenty of people have said this is not a great appointment due to perceptions, so there's yet more invented reasons for whinging.
    Oh, sure. But I'm not bothered about the impact on Boris - he's yesterday's man - I'm interested in the impact on a government led by Sir Keir.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    You need to think like a Tory MP and average party member about this issue. How would a story of a stitch up play with them. regardless of veracity?

    ...
    My comment stands.
  • Would be appreciated if people could remove the extra characters from their Twitter links, don't really fancy giving Elon any more tracking info
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,527

    Jonathan said:

    Enjoying the Brexit queue of shame at Frankfurt, whilst all the other Europeans breeze through. Please Rishi can you put this on your list of Brexit nonsense to fix?

    Surely that is the Brexit queue of pride? We now Control Our Borders. If the Krauts and the Frogs and the other commie Euronazis don't want to that is their problem. Before we left the EU anyone could waltz in without showing a passport. Now we bloody well stop them. And if we have to queue because they are pigs that's a good price to pay.

    Hang on.

    No, we had passport checks already didn't we because not in Schengen. So what was the point again...?
    A comment which rather undermines Jonathan's complaint. You are absolutely right. We always had to queue at EU airports because we were not in Schengen. Indeed I used to pick entry point transit airports partly on how efficient they were at dealing with non Schengen travellers because there were some places you simply couldn't make connections in time. And this was whilst we were in the EU.

    The idea we all suddenly had to start queuing only after Brexit is a myth.

    That's not my experience. When I used to get the ferry down to Santander we would arrive and be waved through by Spanish passport control or, at worst, be subjected to a cursory check. I've done it twice since Brexit and both times it has taken two hours to leave the port as every passport in every car has to be screened and then stamped. Likewise, pre-Brexit I would often present my passport at an EU/EEA airport immigration desk and just be waved through. Now every passport is scanned and stamped - on arrival and exit. That inevitably creates longer waiting times.

    All that said, this should not be an insurmountable issue now that the grown-ups are in charge. There is a big difference between freedom of movement and freedom of settlement. The key thing, surely, is not how long someone stays in a country but whether they are working, using services, studying, living etc. It would not take too much work to find an arrangement that makes such differentiations and to enact it.

    In fact, I would go so far as to say that if this were to happen, alongside some kind of special arrangement for under-30s enabling them to live, work and study for a limited amount of time in the UK/EU, it would entrench Brexit as something that most people could accept and learn to live with quite happily.

    Having made hundreds of trips through Schipol, Frankfurt, Copenhagen and Oslo over the years I can safely say that I could count the number of times we were waved through on one hand.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,045
    edited March 2023
    It seems two stories have come out nearly simultaneously in respect of the Sue Gray appointment and the report from the privileges committee and by far the most serious one is the damning nature of the privileges committee report

    I just cannot see Johnson being cleared by the committee and I expect he will be sanctioned and quite rightly

    As far as Sue Gray is concerned the Guardian report is worth a read

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/mar/03/labour-ready-to-delay-sue-gray-appointment-amid-growing-row?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Ghedebrav said:

    I don't think the stitch-up story sticks though. And though he is apparently blind to it, he is not popular enough any more - Labour will beat a Boris-led party, and sooner as it would surely precipitate a GE. To use that lovely quote from TTOI - "[He's] gone from the man people love to hate, to the man people just hate. From Simon Cowell to Piers Morgan."

    I feel like Johnson has become Corbyn tbh
    I think the key is whether Boris is still retaining hope of returning to power, in which case he has to be slightly careful, or if he thinks his chances are done and there is no downside to causing harm to the party if they do not go out to bat for him.

    Corbyn is really just doing what he did before he became LOTO, and is ostracised as a result. He's presumably upset about Keir casting him out, but can't stop Keir winning even if he wanted, he will succeed or fail regardless of Corbyn. By contrast, Boris might yet be able to change Sunak's outcomes from small loss (or even, in their most optimistic thinking, cling on to power), to massive loss, if he flounces off in a huff along with his supporters (even if it is just in a stay at home way, not leave the party way).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    ping said:

    Just caught the news about ARM.

    How bloody depressing.

    These free trade tories have been naive in the extreme. They wouldn’t know the national interest if it smacked them in the face.

    To be fair, there was never much chance of ARM listing on the LSE. It really hasn't got anything much to do with the government.
    While that's true, it was also reported that the valuation discount for new listings in London versus the US has widened significantly since Brexit.
    Yes, fair point.
    I don't particularly want to belabour the Brexit element, as we're unlikely to be able to address that anytime soon anyway, but it's a very real issue for keeping and growing new tech businesses in the UK.
    It's a completely different issue, the risk appetite among British investors is just very low, we've become a feeble nation that is too scared of losing what little it has left to invest in our future. UK investors are among the most dividend hungry in the world and UK companies are among the highest yielding in the world and show significantly lower capital growth to feed the dividend appetite among investors.

    A big factor in this is private sector DB pension funds which are among the worst for future liabilities in the world. It has left UK PLC completely unable to invest and investment funds unable to go for higher risk capital profit vs boring reliable dividend yield.
    I don't disagree with any of that. I was just noting that the valuation gap has grown significantly since Brexit.

    The US is the other extreme, of course.

    Look at some of the recent tech listings - DNA has a market cap of under $3bn. Stock based compensation over the last two years, $3.5bn.
    https://twitter.com/AppleHelix/status/1631044355317194755
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,220

    Ghedebrav said:

    I don't think the stitch-up story sticks though. And though he is apparently blind to it, he is not popular enough any more - Labour will beat a Boris-led party, and sooner as it would surely precipitate a GE. To use that lovely quote from TTOI - "[He's] gone from the man people love to hate, to the man people just hate. From Simon Cowell to Piers Morgan."

    I feel like Johnson has become Corbyn tbh
    Or, Boris and Jez were unsuitable all along, but surprisingly good at persuading people otherwise.

    Salisbury removed the scales from people's eyes about Corbyn (he's always been a stubborn fool with dubious patriotism), and a similar process has happened/is happening for Johnson (he's always been a shameless liar).
  • We need to move from a state which is trying to deliver "value for money" into one that is purpose and action driven.

    We need a new multi-sectoral strategy for the big issues, for example climate change, digital divide, healthcare
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434

    It seems two stories have come out nearly simultaneously in respect of the Sue Gray appointment and the report from the privileges committee and by far the most serious one is the damning nature of the privileges committee report

    I just cannot see Johnson being cleared by the committee and I expect he will be sanctioned and quite rightly

    As far as Sue Gray is concerned the Guardian report is worth a read

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/mar/03/labour-ready-to-delay-sue-gray-appointment-amid-growing-row?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    It is amazing how the news today was meant to be the choke chain tightening around Boris's political future, and it's been totally overshadowed by the Gray appointment.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Ghedebrav said:

    I don't think the stitch-up story sticks though. And though he is apparently blind to it, he is not popular enough any more - Labour will beat a Boris-led party, and sooner as it would surely precipitate a GE. To use that lovely quote from TTOI - "[He's] gone from the man people love to hate, to the man people just hate. From Simon Cowell to Piers Morgan."

    I feel like Johnson has become Corbyn tbh
    Or, Boris and Jez were unsuitable all along, but surprisingly good at persuading people otherwise.

    Salisbury removed the scales from people's eyes about Corbyn (he's always been a stubborn fool with dubious patriotism), and a similar process has happened/is happening for Johnson (he's always been a shameless liar).
    I'm still not sure it is the case Boris persuaded people otherwise. Some of his supporters got pre-emptive complaining done about the members being denied their favoured choice, in response to the possibility MPs might not put him in the final two. That says to me that as with 2016 they knew plenty of MPs did not like or trust him.

    Of course, in the end he very easily made it, and that was because the MPs believed he was the best option to win a GE and save their seats. They were right.

    That he spaffed up the wall the goodwill he got for winning a huge majority, and self imploded after only 3 years, I think shows many of them were never big fans. We know at least 100 are, and so probably about half in total are fans with some of those not thinking he should come back, but it means the number persuaded of his suitability is lower than we might think.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,038

    We need to move from a state which is trying to deliver "value for money" into one that is purpose and action driven.

    We need a new multi-sectoral strategy for the big issues, for example climate change, digital divide, healthcare

    Or, to put it another way, you want a state that will do what you want it to and damn the cost.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,785
    edited March 2023
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-norfolk-64835179

    "Former PM Liz Truss: 'I didn't do everything perfectly'"

    Well,, not quite everything, no....
  • We asked, you answered!

    Following an overwhelming response, we have now passed 33,000 followers 🥳 Thank you for your support.

    Our Scotland poll is now in the field, with results to be published next Wednesday (8 March)

    Watch this space 👀🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿


    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1631610491729592320
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431
    I suppose there's no chance that Liz Truss could ennoble Boris in her resignation honours list? That is assuming she has one.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    ping said:

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    Starmer's appointment of Sue Gray is either very clever or very stupid, perhaps depending on how one views Boris's prospects.
    kinabalu said:

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    Gray didn't bring down Johnson though.
    Agreed.

    I think what's interesting here is Starmer's (and Gray's) supreme confidence. I don't think the appointment will be terribly well-received in Labour circles. It's not great for Starmer's party unity in that regard. It does give a bit of succour to Bojo and the wider Tory Party by calling into question whether Graynwas already in discussions with the LOTO when she was reporting on the PM. But Starmer and Gray are disregarding all those irksome factors because they are 100% confident that Starmer is bound for Number 10. Make no mistake, Gray would not be messing around with Starmer to be Chief of Staff to the LOTO. Getting really tinfoily, perhaps the reason for getting Gray in now (or soon) is because they foresee a more sudden end to the dismal decline manager's premiership than we do. Perhaps Gray intends to steer Starmer through a GE, and events are bejng orchestrated that will lead to Sunak declaring one? Though it's nore likely they just did not know when Gray would be released to start her job.
    I assume Starmer wanted her on board before the candidate selection process really got going.

    An early GE doesn’t look likely to me. I don’t see the signs it looks likely to Starmer, either.
    She could be on gardening leave for 12 months, depending on what ACOBA ends up recommending.
    He wants her on board in time to govern.

    Some might think that hubristic; I think it's rather that Labour might be waking up to the size of the task ahead of them. They don't have all that many figures with any experience of government.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    It is amazing how the news today was meant to be the choke chain tightening around Boris's political future, and it's been totally overshadowed by the Gray appointment.

    Really?

    top story in The Times right now

    Breaches of coronavirus rules in Downing Street would have been “obvious” to Boris Johnson at several events he attended, the parliamentary inquiry into the lockdown parties scandal has said.

    The privileges committee has published a 24-page document of questions for the former prime minister as it prepares to interview him in public this month on whether he misled parliament. Johnson is scheduled to give oral evidence to the committee in the week beginning March 20.

    The litany of questions about Johnson’s honesty threatens to resurrect bitter Tory divides over the former prime minister and his integrity in a week in which Rishi Sunak hoped to unite the Conservative Party around Brexit and move past a year of tumult.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,785
    edited March 2023
    Nigelb said:

    ping said:

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    Starmer's appointment of Sue Gray is either very clever or very stupid, perhaps depending on how one views Boris's prospects.
    kinabalu said:

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    Gray didn't bring down Johnson though.
    Agreed.

    I think what's interesting here is Starmer's (and Gray's) supreme confidence. I don't think the appointment will be terribly well-received in Labour circles. It's not great for Starmer's party unity in that regard. It does give a bit of succour to Bojo and the wider Tory Party by calling into question whether Graynwas already in discussions with the LOTO when she was reporting on the PM. But Starmer and Gray are disregarding all those irksome factors because they are 100% confident that Starmer is bound for Number 10. Make no mistake, Gray would not be messing around with Starmer to be Chief of Staff to the LOTO. Getting really tinfoily, perhaps the reason for getting Gray in now (or soon) is because they foresee a more sudden end to the dismal decline manager's premiership than we do. Perhaps Gray intends to steer Starmer through a GE, and events are bejng orchestrated that will lead to Sunak declaring one? Though it's nore likely they just did not know when Gray would be released to start her job.
    I assume Starmer wanted her on board before the candidate selection process really got going.

    An early GE doesn’t look likely to me. I don’t see the signs it looks likely to Starmer, either.
    She could be on gardening leave for 12 months, depending on what ACOBA ends up recommending.
    He wants her on board in time to govern.

    Some might think that hubristic; I think it's rather that Labour might be waking up to the size of the task ahead of them. They don't have all that many figures with any experience of government.
    Even just at the 'Oh, you probably want to talk to Bob over in Defra about that' level - I imagine she'd be invaluable to a new No.10 team that's been out of power for over a decade.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,136
    edited March 2023

    I suppose there's no chance that Liz Truss could ennoble Boris in her resignation honours list? That is assuming she has one.

    Somewhat incredibly I gather she does have one.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434
    Scott_xP said:

    It is amazing how the news today was meant to be the choke chain tightening around Boris's political future, and it's been totally overshadowed by the Gray appointment.

    Really?

    top story in The Times right now

    Breaches of coronavirus rules in Downing Street would have been “obvious” to Boris Johnson at several events he attended, the parliamentary inquiry into the lockdown parties scandal has said.

    The privileges committee has published a 24-page document of questions for the former prime minister as it prepares to interview him in public this month on whether he misled parliament. Johnson is scheduled to give oral evidence to the committee in the week beginning March 20.

    The litany of questions about Johnson’s honesty threatens to resurrect bitter Tory divides over the former prime minister and his integrity in a week in which Rishi Sunak hoped to unite the Conservative Party around Brexit and move past a year of tumult.
    The Times.

    :lol:
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Having no truck with the nonsense from Dorries nd Mogg.

    I don’t doubt that Boris feels that he left number 10 prematurely. But let’s not forget why it was. It was over the Pincher affair …
    The idea that Boris Johnson could be back as prime minister when those were the circumstances which finally led to his departure, I’m afraid is fanciful.

    Boris will have my admiration for a long time. He saved this country from a major constitutional crisis. He saved us from Jeremy Corbyn. And that means he saved the future of this nation. And I personally am very reluctant to be critical because we owe him this country’s prosperity and freedom.
    But the idea of him coming back – I think he should bank the wins he’s got. Honestly, Boris, thank you, you saved the country. Don’t come back. ..
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    kinabalu said:

    I suppose there's no chance that Liz Truss could ennoble Boris in her resignation honours list? That is assuming she has one.

    Somewhat incredibly I gather she does have one.
    Pretty ridiculous - it's not a requirement.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,215

    It seems two stories have come out nearly simultaneously in respect of the Sue Gray appointment and the report from the privileges committee and by far the most serious one is the damning nature of the privileges committee report

    I just cannot see Johnson being cleared by the committee and I expect he will be sanctioned and quite rightly

    As far as Sue Gray is concerned the Guardian report is worth a read

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/mar/03/labour-ready-to-delay-sue-gray-appointment-amid-growing-row?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Read the Guardian piece.

    Not sure what this means: "Stafford refused repeatedly to answer questions, however, on whether Gray was responsible for the parties herself, and his interview was cut short by the BBC presenter Nick Robinson."

    Who is suggesting that Gray is responsible for the parties?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    It is safe to say that Germany is now the second largest supplier of arms and equipment to #Ukraine 🇩🇪🇺🇦

    1: United States
    2: Germany
    3: United Kingdom
    4: Poland
    5: The Netherlands

    https://twitter.com/oryxspioenkop/status/1631579597077721089
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,749

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Has any PB-er tried this miracle weight loss drug Ozempic?

    As avowed by Jez Clarkson, most of Hollywood, and now David Aaronovitch in today’s Times?

    It sounds amazing. And I’ve just discovered that a chunky female relative of mine has been on it for 5 weeks and has lost 10 pounds (without trying). And she has struggled with weight all of her life

    I’ve got 12 pounds of Covid lard that will not shift. I’m gonna try this

    I have a colleague who has taken it for a while, he said it's been great for getting the weight down but it has taken all of the enjoyment of food out of life for him. I think for someone like you where going to a great restaurant and enjoying the food it will probably be a big hit to your life quality vs doing a bit of extra exercise.

    My relative says this is not her experience

    She still really enjoys food, she just eats less

    But I hear you: I will do a short term experiment
    I do handstands against a wall each night. When I'm up, I bend my arms doing a sort of vertical press up (not kissing the floor or anything, just what I can manage), and do progressively more as time goes on. I am up to between 50 and 60 now. Conbined with a fairly active lifestyle, and only having one meal a day in the week (two at weekends) that keeps me in shape.
    It's very funny, but from reading your posts I somehow got an idea that something like that was probably happening.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863
    There is evidence Boris Johnson misled MPs when he repeatedly said no lockdown rules had been broken in Downing Street, a cross-party committee has said in a damning report that shows No 10 officials apparently struggling to reconcile this insistence with reality.

    There are also apparent signs of Johnson and his government trying to impede its work by withholding or redacting relevant evidence....the report said that when Johnson was asked personally to submit evidence he said he “held no relevant material”. Six months later, in response to another request, his solicitors supplied the committee with 46 WhatsApp messages between Johnson and five other people.

    A final conclusion is expected to take months, with Johnson expected to give evidence in the week beginning 20 March. Nevertheless, the initial findings appear damning.

  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    Stocky said:

    It seems two stories have come out nearly simultaneously in respect of the Sue Gray appointment and the report from the privileges committee and by far the most serious one is the damning nature of the privileges committee report

    I just cannot see Johnson being cleared by the committee and I expect he will be sanctioned and quite rightly

    As far as Sue Gray is concerned the Guardian report is worth a read

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/mar/03/labour-ready-to-delay-sue-gray-appointment-amid-growing-row?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Read the Guardian piece.

    Not sure what this means: "Stafford refused repeatedly to answer questions, however, on whether Gray was responsible for the parties herself, and his interview was cut short by the BBC presenter Nick Robinson."

    Who is suggesting that Gray is responsible for the parties?
    I think the point is that, whomever Ms Gray subsequently works for, it doesn't alter the fact that Boris was lashing it up with workmates while everyone else was alone and fearful and crushed by lockdown.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,749
    IanB2 said:

    There is evidence Boris Johnson misled MPs when he repeatedly said no lockdown rules had been broken in Downing Street, a cross-party committee has said in a damning report that shows No 10 officials apparently struggling to reconcile this insistence with reality.

    There are also apparent signs of Johnson and his government trying to impede its work by withholding or redacting relevant evidence....the report said that when Johnson was asked personally to submit evidence he said he “held no relevant material”. Six months later, in response to another request, his solicitors supplied the committee with 46 WhatsApp messages between Johnson and five other people.

    A final conclusion is expected to take months, with Johnson expected to give evidence in the week beginning 20 March. Nevertheless, the initial findings appear damning.

    I gather that today's young people generally respond to revelations like that with the phrase "No shit Sherlock". Not that I've ever worked out what it means.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,839

    ping said:

    The release of a report with photos by the privileges committee is damning and to be fair Sky are highlighting parts of the report which frankly I cannot see Johnson surviving without sanctions and his attempts to discredit Sue Gray are absurd

    His appearance on the 20th March will be something to witness as the committee take him apart

    On Sue Gray it is clear that this appointment should have waited a few weeks, and questions are justified by the cabinet office and the civil service just when she entered discussions with Starmer

    However, much as Johnson wants to use Sue Gray negatively that is simply 'grasping at straws' and actually pathetic

    I do not expect Sunak will have to worry about Johnson much longer nor do I expect him to block Sue Gray though a delay in her appointment may well be a few months away

    Rather unusually for Starmer I suspect he has read the tea leaves quite well over Gray's appointment. Partygate is back on the front pages and serves as a reminder to one and all (except Johnson and his cabal of cronies) that Johnson was a very naughty boy.

    Ex DUP minister Simon Hamilton is claiming the Windsor Framework will bring prosperity to Northern Ireland, but that is all lost in a sea of Johnsonian detritus.
    I think the Sue Gray appointment is dumb from Starmer and Labour - as dumb as an opposition manager in football winding up the home crowd to get behind their team I would liken it to.

    It whiffs of a gimmick. And it breaks a golden rule for me that your back room team shouldn’t be centre of media attention and massive bete noir for all your opponents.

    Just a dumb decision from my point of view. And not great decision from Sue herself to accept it, considering her key involvement in inquiry which brought down a rival party leader.

    It really brings out the PB bias though, like you would say no problem if they brought down Starmer and then went to work for Boris, or brought down Biden and then went to work for Trump. Really?

    You need need to try to be as objective and balanced as I am.
    I think Starmer thought that Gray would be a great appointment because (in his mind) she stands for integrity and so the sheen would rub off on Labour. What he didn't seem to have taken into account is how this would look re Gray and her verdict on Johnson.

    For me, Starmer is not clever, he is just very lucky. His proactive decisions are actually not great but he seems to have a knack of being in the right place at the right time. That is all that may count.
    We only know who Sue Gray is because of the Sue Gray report. Therefore there’s a political football to kick around.

    I doubt the politics aspect featured very strongly in Starmer’s decision. He genuinely wants a labour government to be whiter than white. She is a key person who can make that happen.

    Of course that doesn’t mean there won’t still be scandals, but they’re likely to be few and far between.

    This has implications for betting markets, should Starmer become PM.
    I think that though reflects on his skills - he is more tactical than strategic. This is a very good tactical move, I'm not sure how good it is as a strategic move.

    For example, by making this move, he's probably managed to undermine the Commins enquiry into Johnson. Gray + Harman leading the enquiry. Mmmmm
    Gray leading the Commons inquiry? She is a MP?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    Nigelb said:

    Having no truck with the nonsense from Dorries nd Mogg.

    I don’t doubt that Boris feels that he left number 10 prematurely. But let’s not forget why it was. It was over the Pincher affair …
    The idea that Boris Johnson could be back as prime minister when those were the circumstances which finally led to his departure, I’m afraid is fanciful.

    Boris will have my admiration for a long time. He saved this country from a major constitutional crisis. He saved us from Jeremy Corbyn. And that means he saved the future of this nation. And I personally am very reluctant to be critical because we owe him this country’s prosperity and freedom.
    But the idea of him coming back – I think he should bank the wins he’s got. Honestly, Boris, thank you, you saved the country. Don’t come back. ..
    It seems that even amongst his admirers Boris's achievements are thinning: Corbyn and a 'a major constitutional crisis' (whatever that might have been). Hardly stuff to tell your grandchildren about.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,839
    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Has any PB-er tried this miracle weight loss drug Ozempic?

    As avowed by Jez Clarkson, most of Hollywood, and now David Aaronovitch in today’s Times?

    It sounds amazing. And I’ve just discovered that a chunky female relative of mine has been on it for 5 weeks and has lost 10 pounds (without trying). And she has struggled with weight all of her life

    I’ve got 12 pounds of Covid lard that will not shift. I’m gonna try this

    I have a colleague who has taken it for a while, he said it's been great for getting the weight down but it has taken all of the enjoyment of food out of life for him. I think for someone like you where going to a great restaurant and enjoying the food it will probably be a big hit to your life quality vs doing a bit of extra exercise.

    My relative says this is not her experience

    She still really enjoys food, she just eats less

    But I hear you: I will do a short term experiment
    I do handstands against a wall each night. When I'm up, I bend my arms doing a sort of vertical press up (not kissing the floor or anything, just what I can manage), and do progressively more as time goes on. I am up to between 50 and 60 now. Conbined with a fairly active lifestyle, and only having one meal a day in the week (two at weekends) that keeps me in shape.
    It's very funny, but from reading your posts I somehow got an idea that something like that was probably happening.
    "You are old, Father William," the young man said,
    "And your hair has become very white;
    And yet you incessantly stand on your head—
    Do you think, at your age, it is right?"

    "In my youth," Father William replied to his son,
    "I feared it might injure the brain;
    But now that I'm perfectly sure I have none,
    Why, I do it again and again."
  • Stocky said:

    It seems two stories have come out nearly simultaneously in respect of the Sue Gray appointment and the report from the privileges committee and by far the most serious one is the damning nature of the privileges committee report

    I just cannot see Johnson being cleared by the committee and I expect he will be sanctioned and quite rightly

    As far as Sue Gray is concerned the Guardian report is worth a read

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/mar/03/labour-ready-to-delay-sue-gray-appointment-amid-growing-row?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Read the Guardian piece.

    Not sure what this means: "Stafford refused repeatedly to answer questions, however, on whether Gray was responsible for the parties herself, and his interview was cut short by the BBC presenter Nick Robinson."

    Who is suggesting that Gray is responsible for the parties?
    Stafford seems to have got into a monumental mess over this - utterly ridiculous suggestion by anyone
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,749

    Stocky said:

    It seems two stories have come out nearly simultaneously in respect of the Sue Gray appointment and the report from the privileges committee and by far the most serious one is the damning nature of the privileges committee report

    I just cannot see Johnson being cleared by the committee and I expect he will be sanctioned and quite rightly

    As far as Sue Gray is concerned the Guardian report is worth a read

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/mar/03/labour-ready-to-delay-sue-gray-appointment-amid-growing-row?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Read the Guardian piece.

    Not sure what this means: "Stafford refused repeatedly to answer questions, however, on whether Gray was responsible for the parties herself, and his interview was cut short by the BBC presenter Nick Robinson."

    Who is suggesting that Gray is responsible for the parties?
    I think the point is that, whomever Ms Gray subsequently works for, it doesn't alter the fact that Boris was lashing it up with workmates while everyone else was alone and fearful and crushed by lockdown.
    You mean like this.

    image
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Nigelb said:

    It is safe to say that Germany is now the second largest supplier of arms and equipment to #Ukraine 🇩🇪🇺🇦

    1: United States
    2: Germany
    3: United Kingdom
    4: Poland
    5: The Netherlands

    https://twitter.com/oryxspioenkop/status/1631579597077721089

    Good for them. This should be a competition, try and outdo one another in support.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,749

    Nigelb said:

    Having no truck with the nonsense from Dorries nd Mogg.

    I don’t doubt that Boris feels that he left number 10 prematurely. But let’s not forget why it was. It was over the Pincher affair …
    The idea that Boris Johnson could be back as prime minister when those were the circumstances which finally led to his departure, I’m afraid is fanciful.

    Boris will have my admiration for a long time. He saved this country from a major constitutional crisis. He saved us from Jeremy Corbyn. And that means he saved the future of this nation. And I personally am very reluctant to be critical because we owe him this country’s prosperity and freedom.
    But the idea of him coming back – I think he should bank the wins he’s got. Honestly, Boris, thank you, you saved the country. Don’t come back. ..
    It seems that even amongst his admirers Boris's achievements are thinning: Corbyn and a 'a major constitutional crisis' (whatever that might have been). Hardly stuff to tell your grandchildren about.
    Even if you can identify them all.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784
    Chris said:

    IanB2 said:

    There is evidence Boris Johnson misled MPs when he repeatedly said no lockdown rules had been broken in Downing Street, a cross-party committee has said in a damning report that shows No 10 officials apparently struggling to reconcile this insistence with reality.

    There are also apparent signs of Johnson and his government trying to impede its work by withholding or redacting relevant evidence....the report said that when Johnson was asked personally to submit evidence he said he “held no relevant material”. Six months later, in response to another request, his solicitors supplied the committee with 46 WhatsApp messages between Johnson and five other people.

    A final conclusion is expected to take months, with Johnson expected to give evidence in the week beginning 20 March. Nevertheless, the initial findings appear damning.

    I gather that today's young people generally respond to revelations like that with the phrase "No shit Sherlock". Not that I've ever worked out what it means.
    Ha ha more of a GenX phrase I think. Today's young people would have something much more pithy and dismissive, I'll have to ask my teenagers.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Chris said:

    IanB2 said:

    There is evidence Boris Johnson misled MPs when he repeatedly said no lockdown rules had been broken in Downing Street, a cross-party committee has said in a damning report that shows No 10 officials apparently struggling to reconcile this insistence with reality.

    There are also apparent signs of Johnson and his government trying to impede its work by withholding or redacting relevant evidence....the report said that when Johnson was asked personally to submit evidence he said he “held no relevant material”. Six months later, in response to another request, his solicitors supplied the committee with 46 WhatsApp messages between Johnson and five other people.

    A final conclusion is expected to take months, with Johnson expected to give evidence in the week beginning 20 March. Nevertheless, the initial findings appear damning.

    I gather that today's young people generally respond to revelations like that with the phrase "No shit Sherlock". Not that I've ever worked out what it means.
    Is that a young person reference? I've heard people say it for at least 25 years.

    Seems like you have figured out what it means though, since you've employed its use correctly. Just means something is so obvious it doesn't take a genius deductor to have figured it out.

    The delays in these processes though are incredibly frustrating and unnecessary though - since like Paterson you can guarantee Boris will complain about the delays meaning any outcome is unfair, even where he himself is responsible for some delays. It's an incredibly common and blatant tactic, yet people pull it out every time.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784
    Chris said:

    Stocky said:

    It seems two stories have come out nearly simultaneously in respect of the Sue Gray appointment and the report from the privileges committee and by far the most serious one is the damning nature of the privileges committee report

    I just cannot see Johnson being cleared by the committee and I expect he will be sanctioned and quite rightly

    As far as Sue Gray is concerned the Guardian report is worth a read

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/mar/03/labour-ready-to-delay-sue-gray-appointment-amid-growing-row?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Read the Guardian piece.

    Not sure what this means: "Stafford refused repeatedly to answer questions, however, on whether Gray was responsible for the parties herself, and his interview was cut short by the BBC presenter Nick Robinson."

    Who is suggesting that Gray is responsible for the parties?
    I think the point is that, whomever Ms Gray subsequently works for, it doesn't alter the fact that Boris was lashing it up with workmates while everyone else was alone and fearful and crushed by lockdown.
    You mean like this.

    image
    That still makes me so angry. Partying while the Queen sat all sad and alone like that was basically treason. Can't we strip Boris Johnson of his British citizenship or something?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,045
    edited March 2023
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Stocky said:

    It seems two stories have come out nearly simultaneously in respect of the Sue Gray appointment and the report from the privileges committee and by far the most serious one is the damning nature of the privileges committee report

    I just cannot see Johnson being cleared by the committee and I expect he will be sanctioned and quite rightly

    As far as Sue Gray is concerned the Guardian report is worth a read

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/mar/03/labour-ready-to-delay-sue-gray-appointment-amid-growing-row?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Read the Guardian piece.

    Not sure what this means: "Stafford refused repeatedly to answer questions, however, on whether Gray was responsible for the parties herself, and his interview was cut short by the BBC presenter Nick Robinson."

    Who is suggesting that Gray is responsible for the parties?
    I think the point is that, whomever Ms Gray subsequently works for, it doesn't alter the fact that Boris was lashing it up with workmates while everyone else was alone and fearful and crushed by lockdown.
    Yes indeed - Boris is claiming she orchestrated the evidence, which is as good as claiming that the evidence is made up (whilst giving him scope to claim that is not what he means, oh lord no).
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,749
    kle4 said:

    Chris said:

    IanB2 said:

    There is evidence Boris Johnson misled MPs when he repeatedly said no lockdown rules had been broken in Downing Street, a cross-party committee has said in a damning report that shows No 10 officials apparently struggling to reconcile this insistence with reality.

    There are also apparent signs of Johnson and his government trying to impede its work by withholding or redacting relevant evidence....the report said that when Johnson was asked personally to submit evidence he said he “held no relevant material”. Six months later, in response to another request, his solicitors supplied the committee with 46 WhatsApp messages between Johnson and five other people.

    A final conclusion is expected to take months, with Johnson expected to give evidence in the week beginning 20 March. Nevertheless, the initial findings appear damning.

    I gather that today's young people generally respond to revelations like that with the phrase "No shit Sherlock". Not that I've ever worked out what it means.
    Is that a young person reference? I've heard people say it for at least 25 years.

    Seems like you have figured out what it means though, since you've employed its use correctly. Just means something is so obvious it doesn't take a genius deductor to have figured it out.
    Yes ok I plead guilty I really knew that
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    Chris said:

    Stocky said:

    It seems two stories have come out nearly simultaneously in respect of the Sue Gray appointment and the report from the privileges committee and by far the most serious one is the damning nature of the privileges committee report

    I just cannot see Johnson being cleared by the committee and I expect he will be sanctioned and quite rightly

    As far as Sue Gray is concerned the Guardian report is worth a read

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/mar/03/labour-ready-to-delay-sue-gray-appointment-amid-growing-row?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Read the Guardian piece.

    Not sure what this means: "Stafford refused repeatedly to answer questions, however, on whether Gray was responsible for the parties herself, and his interview was cut short by the BBC presenter Nick Robinson."

    Who is suggesting that Gray is responsible for the parties?
    I think the point is that, whomever Ms Gray subsequently works for, it doesn't alter the fact that Boris was lashing it up with workmates while everyone else was alone and fearful and crushed by lockdown.
    You mean like this.

    image
    That still makes me so angry. Partying while the Queen sat all sad and alone like that was basically treason. Can't we strip Boris Johnson of his British citizenship or something?
    Seeing this picture doesn't make me angry about what some civil servants did in private the day before, it makes me angry that the government imposed bullshit restictions on funerals. And that the opposition wanted more bullshit restrictions for longer.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Chris said:

    Stocky said:

    It seems two stories have come out nearly simultaneously in respect of the Sue Gray appointment and the report from the privileges committee and by far the most serious one is the damning nature of the privileges committee report

    I just cannot see Johnson being cleared by the committee and I expect he will be sanctioned and quite rightly

    As far as Sue Gray is concerned the Guardian report is worth a read

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/mar/03/labour-ready-to-delay-sue-gray-appointment-amid-growing-row?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Read the Guardian piece.

    Not sure what this means: "Stafford refused repeatedly to answer questions, however, on whether Gray was responsible for the parties herself, and his interview was cut short by the BBC presenter Nick Robinson."

    Who is suggesting that Gray is responsible for the parties?
    I think the point is that, whomever Ms Gray subsequently works for, it doesn't alter the fact that Boris was lashing it up with workmates while everyone else was alone and fearful and crushed by lockdown.
    You mean like this.

    image
    It's always key to see how people behave when they think they are not being observed or won't face any consequences for their actions.

    It's unsurprising there was a lot of 'Would't you do the same thing?' defences at the time to excuse it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Driver said:

    Chris said:

    Stocky said:

    It seems two stories have come out nearly simultaneously in respect of the Sue Gray appointment and the report from the privileges committee and by far the most serious one is the damning nature of the privileges committee report

    I just cannot see Johnson being cleared by the committee and I expect he will be sanctioned and quite rightly

    As far as Sue Gray is concerned the Guardian report is worth a read

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/mar/03/labour-ready-to-delay-sue-gray-appointment-amid-growing-row?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Read the Guardian piece.

    Not sure what this means: "Stafford refused repeatedly to answer questions, however, on whether Gray was responsible for the parties herself, and his interview was cut short by the BBC presenter Nick Robinson."

    Who is suggesting that Gray is responsible for the parties?
    I think the point is that, whomever Ms Gray subsequently works for, it doesn't alter the fact that Boris was lashing it up with workmates while everyone else was alone and fearful and crushed by lockdown.
    You mean like this.

    image
    That still makes me so angry. Partying while the Queen sat all sad and alone like that was basically treason. Can't we strip Boris Johnson of his British citizenship or something?
    Seeing this picture doesn't make me angry about what some civil servants did in private the day before, it makes me angry that the government imposed bullshit restictions on funerals. And that the opposition wanted more bullshit restrictions for longer.
    It can make people angry at both. The PM and colleagues imposed the rules, so even if they were stupid they were supposed to follow them, as people were being fined and charged for violating them.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587
    edited March 2023

    Chris said:

    Stocky said:

    It seems two stories have come out nearly simultaneously in respect of the Sue Gray appointment and the report from the privileges committee and by far the most serious one is the damning nature of the privileges committee report

    I just cannot see Johnson being cleared by the committee and I expect he will be sanctioned and quite rightly

    As far as Sue Gray is concerned the Guardian report is worth a read

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/mar/03/labour-ready-to-delay-sue-gray-appointment-amid-growing-row?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Read the Guardian piece.

    Not sure what this means: "Stafford refused repeatedly to answer questions, however, on whether Gray was responsible for the parties herself, and his interview was cut short by the BBC presenter Nick Robinson."

    Who is suggesting that Gray is responsible for the parties?
    I think the point is that, whomever Ms Gray subsequently works for, it doesn't alter the fact that Boris was lashing it up with workmates while everyone else was alone and fearful and crushed by lockdown.
    You mean like this.

    image
    That still makes me so angry. Partying while the Queen sat all sad and alone like that was basically treason. Can't we strip Boris Johnson of his British citizenship or something?
    Boris wasn't at the eve-of-the-funeral party, IIRC.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    kle4 said:

    Chris said:

    IanB2 said:

    There is evidence Boris Johnson misled MPs when he repeatedly said no lockdown rules had been broken in Downing Street, a cross-party committee has said in a damning report that shows No 10 officials apparently struggling to reconcile this insistence with reality.

    There are also apparent signs of Johnson and his government trying to impede its work by withholding or redacting relevant evidence....the report said that when Johnson was asked personally to submit evidence he said he “held no relevant material”. Six months later, in response to another request, his solicitors supplied the committee with 46 WhatsApp messages between Johnson and five other people.

    A final conclusion is expected to take months, with Johnson expected to give evidence in the week beginning 20 March. Nevertheless, the initial findings appear damning.

    I gather that today's young people generally respond to revelations like that with the phrase "No shit Sherlock". Not that I've ever worked out what it means.
    Is that a young person reference? I've heard people say it for at least 25 years.

    Seems like you have figured out what it means though, since you've employed its use correctly. Just means something is so obvious it doesn't take a genius deductor to have figured it out.

    The delays in these processes though are incredibly frustrating and unnecessary though - since like Paterson you can guarantee Boris will complain about the delays meaning any outcome is unfair, even where he himself is responsible for some delays. It's an incredibly common and blatant tactic, yet people pull it out every time.
    I suggested calling our first-born Noshit Sherlock [Surname] but my wife vetoed the idea :disappointed:
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,839
    Only because of the flood of nonsense from Tories and their friends in the newspapers. What on earth is wrong with a senior civil servant changing her job?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,749
    edited March 2023

    Chris said:

    Stocky said:

    It seems two stories have come out nearly simultaneously in respect of the Sue Gray appointment and the report from the privileges committee and by far the most serious one is the damning nature of the privileges committee report

    I just cannot see Johnson being cleared by the committee and I expect he will be sanctioned and quite rightly

    As far as Sue Gray is concerned the Guardian report is worth a read

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/mar/03/labour-ready-to-delay-sue-gray-appointment-amid-growing-row?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

    Read the Guardian piece.

    Not sure what this means: "Stafford refused repeatedly to answer questions, however, on whether Gray was responsible for the parties herself, and his interview was cut short by the BBC presenter Nick Robinson."

    Who is suggesting that Gray is responsible for the parties?
    I think the point is that, whomever Ms Gray subsequently works for, it doesn't alter the fact that Boris was lashing it up with workmates while everyone else was alone and fearful and crushed by lockdown.
    You mean like this.

    image
    That still makes me so angry. Partying while the Queen sat all sad and alone like that was basically treason. Can't we strip Boris Johnson of his British citizenship or something?
    Well, the medieval process consisted of dragging the condemned person through the streets on a hurdle, then hanging by the neck until not dead and then dismemberment, including evisceration and castration.

    I'll leave it to others to decide what the appropriate penalty for Boris Johnson might be - particularly as I just realised that if stated my own opinion I might be laying myself open to prosecution!
This discussion has been closed.