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A LAB majority now a 62% chance in the GE betting – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,020
edited February 2023 in General
imageA LAB majority now a 62% chance in the GE betting – politicalbetting.com

A combination of the ongoing 20%+ LAB poll leads combined with what is happening in parliamentary and local government by-elections have continued to reinforce the betting market view about what will happen at the general election.

Read the full story here

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    First like Labour
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    NOM looks like value.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,586

    Simply can't see another defenestration happening.

    1 There's no clear successor. It would likely be another full leadership election with a members' vote. It would be bitter and would expose Tory divisions less than 18 months before a General Election. It would paralyse Government (again) gifting Labour obvious lines about Tory priorities.

    2 There's no guarantee a better leader will be put in place and every chance someone even more electorally toxic might get in (JRM being one such). Whoever wins wouldn't have to resign after an election loss because they could argue they'd not been in long enough to turn things round... which would mean a Labour Government with a divided opposition led divisively. That's an even worse situation than now.

    3 And what's the upside? Do any Tory MPs seriously think they can win next time? Unless there's a considedable chance changing leaders will enable that to happen (can't see that myself), how is the downside worth the risk? I would think most Tory MPs will be expecting some sort of swingback (historically not unlikely), a limited defeat (given the electoral arithmetic there's still a fair chance of a hung parliament, so a potentially earlier GE), and a chance for necessary reform and regrouping under an currently lower-profile new leader (similar to Cameron post-2005). That's a normal historical pattern. The alternative is an abnormal wipeout.

    Chances of Rishi fighting GE2024/2025? 95% in my book. The 5% is for a black swan.

    Chances of there being an odd number of general elections in the 2020s? Well that's slightly higher, and that's what I'd be hoping for were I a Tory MP. The best way of getting there is to sit tight with Rishi to give a relative unknown the chance to rebuild after the upcoming loss.

    (Nerdy trivia question: which was the last decade with an odd number of General Elections?).

    Those are all very good arguments, but against all that there has to be more than a 5% chance of Tory MPs committing an act of collective stupidity - and that’s not even a black swan.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115
    Nigelb said:

    Simply can't see another defenestration happening.

    1 There's no clear successor. It would likely be another full leadership election with a members' vote. It would be bitter and would expose Tory divisions less than 18 months before a General Election. It would paralyse Government (again) gifting Labour obvious lines about Tory priorities.

    2 There's no guarantee a better leader will be put in place and every chance someone even more electorally toxic might get in (JRM being one such). Whoever wins wouldn't have to resign after an election loss because they could argue they'd not been in long enough to turn things round... which would mean a Labour Government with a divided opposition led divisively. That's an even worse situation than now.

    3 And what's the upside? Do any Tory MPs seriously think they can win next time? Unless there's a considedable chance changing leaders will enable that to happen (can't see that myself), how is the downside worth the risk? I would think most Tory MPs will be expecting some sort of swingback (historically not unlikely), a limited defeat (given the electoral arithmetic there's still a fair chance of a hung parliament, so a potentially earlier GE), and a chance for necessary reform and regrouping under an currently lower-profile new leader (similar to Cameron post-2005). That's a normal historical pattern. The alternative is an abnormal wipeout.

    Chances of Rishi fighting GE2024/2025? 95% in my book. The 5% is for a black swan.

    Chances of there being an odd number of general elections in the 2020s? Well that's slightly higher, and that's what I'd be hoping for were I a Tory MP. The best way of getting there is to sit tight with Rishi to give a relative unknown the chance to rebuild after the upcoming loss.

    (Nerdy trivia question: which was the last decade with an odd number of General Elections?).

    Those are all very good arguments, but against all that there has to be more than a 5% chance of Tory MPs committing an act of collective stupidity - and that’s not even a black swan.
    That chance is as close to 0% as a an unexpected health event can allow for in a fit young man with the best healthcare his vast wealth can buy.

    Anybody claiming otherwise has no insight into the Conservative Party.
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    Those are all very good arguments, but against all that there has to be more than a 5% chance of Tory MPs committing an act of collective stupidity - and that’s not even a black swan.
    The chances of any individual Tory MP doing something stupid probably vary between 1% and 90% with a median of 15%. The chances of 53 of them all doing the same stupid thing at around the same time can't be much more than a few percent, even if the lack of independence means the standard Bernoulli-trial model can't be applied here

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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,586
    The laptop !

    Trump team turns over additional classified records and laptop to federal prosecutors
    https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/10/politics/trump-classified-records-laptop/index.html

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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,586
    edited February 2023



    The chances of any individual Tory MP doing something stupid probably vary between 1% and 90% with a median of 15%. The chances of 53 of them all doing the same stupid thing at around the same time can't be much more than a few percent…

    Recent history strongly suggests otherwise.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,586

    Nigelb said:

    Simply can't see another defenestration happening.

    1 There's no clear successor. It would likely be another full leadership election with a members' vote. It would be bitter and would expose Tory divisions less than 18 months before a General Election. It would paralyse Government (again) gifting Labour obvious lines about Tory priorities.

    2 There's no guarantee a better leader will be put in place and every chance someone even more electorally toxic might get in (JRM being one such). Whoever wins wouldn't have to resign after an election loss because they could argue they'd not been in long enough to turn things round... which would mean a Labour Government with a divided opposition led divisively. That's an even worse situation than now.

    3 And what's the upside? Do any Tory MPs seriously think they can win next time? Unless there's a considedable chance changing leaders will enable that to happen (can't see that myself), how is the downside worth the risk? I would think most Tory MPs will be expecting some sort of swingback (historically not unlikely), a limited defeat (given the electoral arithmetic there's still a fair chance of a hung parliament, so a potentially earlier GE), and a chance for necessary reform and regrouping under an currently lower-profile new leader (similar to Cameron post-2005). That's a normal historical pattern. The alternative is an abnormal wipeout.

    Chances of Rishi fighting GE2024/2025? 95% in my book. The 5% is for a black swan.

    Chances of there being an odd number of general elections in the 2020s? Well that's slightly higher, and that's what I'd be hoping for were I a Tory MP. The best way of getting there is to sit tight with Rishi to give a relative unknown the chance to rebuild after the upcoming loss.

    (Nerdy trivia question: which was the last decade with an odd number of General Elections?).

    Those are all very good arguments, but against all that there has to be more than a 5% chance of Tory MPs committing an act of collective stupidity - and that’s not even a black swan.
    That chance is as close to 0% as a an unexpected health event can allow for in a fit young man with the best healthcare his vast wealth can buy.

    Anybody claiming otherwise has no insight into the Conservative Party.
    I’ll happily admit that.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,586
    Appeals court ruling says alleged domestic abusers have a constitutional right to keep their guns

    https://www.texastribune.org/2023/02/09/guns-domestic-abuse-second-amendment/
    Advocates for domestic violence victims were stunned by the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruling, which continued a string of court decisions citing the Second Amendment to erase gun restrictions…
    … In 2021 alone, 127 women in Texas were murdered by their male intimate partners with firearms, according to the Texas Council on Family Violence. Across the country, an average of 70 women each month are killed by their partners with guns. Research has shown that a domestic violence victim’s risk of death is five times higher when their abuser has access to a gun...

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    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,258
    Morning all.

    I agree with Mike but I think most of you already know my views on what is likely to happen ;)
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    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,258
    edited February 2023
    Sandpit said:

    NOM looks like value.

    Only to those who don't live here and / or aren't listening to the mood. I've never known it so ugly.

    They are in for a shellacking.
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    I would love to see the Tories decimated at the next GE, it is no more than they deserve, but without Labour making significant inroads in scotland, I just cannot see a huge labour majority, they would have to win seats that have always been solid tory, winning seats that even in 97 they came knowhere near winning, my constituency of Southend West has been solid tory for generations, that would have to fall to labour,I just cannot ever see that happening, NOM or a tiny labour majority is still the most likely outcome
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    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Roy, the Conservatives would bite your hand off to only be decimated at the next election.

    Feeling quietly confident of my Lab majority bet (tipped by someone here... perhaps Ishmael Z).
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    I do wonder why people put so much faith in mid term polls, which are pretty useless. I guess it’s quantitative data, and that’s seductive.

    My view is that Labour have a chance of winning, but to do so have to win an almost unprecedented number of Tory seats. It won’t take much to miss out on a few. A narrow Labour win to the Tories hanging on feels like the range we will end up.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,221

    Simply can't see another defenestration happening.

    1 There's no clear successor. It would likely be another full leadership election with a members' vote. It would be bitter and would expose Tory divisions less than 18 months before a General Election. It would paralyse Government (again) gifting Labour obvious lines about Tory priorities.

    2 There's no guarantee a better leader will be put in place and every chance someone even more electorally toxic might get in (JRM being one such). Whoever wins wouldn't have to resign after an election loss because they could argue they'd not been in long enough to turn things round... which would mean a Labour Government with a divided opposition led divisively. That's an even worse situation than now.

    3 And what's the upside? Do any Tory MPs seriously think they can win next time? Unless there's a considedable chance changing leaders will enable that to happen (can't see that myself), how is the downside worth the risk? I would think most Tory MPs will be expecting some sort of swingback (historically not unlikely), a limited defeat (given the electoral arithmetic there's still a fair chance of a hung parliament, so a potentially earlier GE), and a chance for necessary reform and regrouping under an currently lower-profile new leader (similar to Cameron post-2005). That's a normal historical pattern. The alternative is an abnormal wipeout.

    Chances of Rishi fighting GE2024/2025? 95% in my book. The 5% is for a black swan.

    Chances of there being an odd number of general elections in the 2020s? Well that's slightly higher, and that's what I'd be hoping for were I a Tory MP. The best way of getting there is to sit tight with Rishi to give a relative unknown the chance to rebuild after the upcoming loss.

    (Nerdy trivia question: which was the last decade with an odd number of General Elections?).

    Depends which decade you put 1970 in. If it’s at the end of the 1960s, it was the 1970s. If 1970 was the first year of the 1970s, it would be the 1940s (assuming 1 is an odd number which it may not be to a maths teacher) or failing that the 1910s.
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    Jonathan said:

    I do wonder why people put so much faith in mid term polls, which are pretty useless. I guess it’s quantitative data, and that’s seductive.

    My view is that Labour have a chance of winning, but to do so have to win an almost unprecedented number of Tory seats. It won’t take much to miss out on a few. A narrow Labour win to the Tories hanging on feels like the range we will end up.

    As I have stated before it's not my preferred outcome, but I agree with you the most likely outcome, as much as it pains me to say, 9/2 tories to win most seats is very tempting, although I think that might just get bigger after may elections
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    The other interesting thing is that these days, the left wing party is the one offering the centrist, safe friendly prospectus. Whereas the right wing party is the one motivated by wild radical types.

    Labour is operating as the natural party of government and the conservatives increasingly like to position themselves as an opposition.

    Since the next election is a change election, how will that play out?
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    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,258
    edited February 2023
    Jonathan said:

    I do wonder why people put so much faith in mid term polls, which are pretty useless. I guess it’s quantitative data, and that’s seductive.

    My view is that Labour have a chance of winning, but to do so have to win an almost unprecedented number of Tory seats. It won’t take much to miss out on a few. A narrow Labour win to the Tories hanging on feels like the range we will end up.

    It's not 'faith' and it's not 'mid-term'. Forget 2025. The election will be no later than next autumn.

    Most of us who have seen sea-changes occur in our lifetimes (1979 and 1997) know one when we see one. This is a sea-change. A series of catastrophic external events and unforced errors have rendered the Conservatives implausible as a governing party. Just about everyone in the country knows it.

    I would suggest that you are the one guilty of the blind faith. Clinging on desperately to recency bias and failing to read the writing on the wall.

    It's over. The 'real' question is just how far they will sink. MRP at 142 seats is likely about right. 100-150, but no more than that with the possibility of a sub-100 showing.

    'Unprecedented' can be a silly and meaningless word. Something is only unprecedented until it isn't. We have lived through an 'unprecedented' 4 years and we're heading for an 'unprecedented' result.
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    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,258
    edited February 2023


    Feeling quietly confident of my Lab majority bet (tipped by someone here... perhaps Ishmael Z).

    I've been banging on about it for months ;)

    xx
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited February 2023
    Heathener said:

    Jonathan said:

    I do wonder why people put so much faith in mid term polls, which are pretty useless. I guess it’s quantitative data, and that’s seductive.

    My view is that Labour have a chance of winning, but to do so have to win an almost unprecedented number of Tory seats. It won’t take much to miss out on a few. A narrow Labour win to the Tories hanging on feels like the range we will end up.

    It's not 'faith' and it's not 'mid-term'. Forget 2025. The election will be no later than next autumn.

    Most of us who have seen sea-changes occur in our lifetimes (1979 and 1997) know one when we see one. This is a sea-change. A series of catastrophic external events and unforced errors have rendered the Conservatives implausible as a governing party. Just about everyone in the country knows it.

    I would suggest that you are the one guilty of the blind faith. Clinging on desperately to recency bias and failing to read the writing on the wall.

    It's over. The 'real' question is just how far they will sink. MRP at 142 seats is likely about right. 100-150, but no more than that with the possibility of a sub-100 showing.

    'Unprecedented' can be a silly and meaningless word. Something is only unprecedented until it isn't. We have lived through an unprecedented 4 years and we're heading for an unprecedented result.
    I appreciate your gung-ho optimism. Yes, the Tories do appear to be over. But having experienced 1992, I am always very careful. The Tories start a long way ahead. It’s a very defensible position. Much can happen between now and polling day. With the Tory press at hand, a doubt here a question there could easily stop Labour momentum and a number of Tories could hang on with wafer thin majorities.

    But I hope you’re right.
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    I would love to be as optimistic as Heathener, but there is such an in built bias towards the tories in this country, mainly to do with the overwhelming positive press they receive in the media, there are even two tv channels now regurgitating their garbage, as the election gets nearer, there is only one way those polls are going to go, and that is to narrow, for those of us who would dearly love to see them lose, it will squeaky bum time, and remembering all those friday mornings when you have woken up to another tory government
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    kamskikamski Posts: 4,250
    Jonathan said:

    The other interesting thing is that these days, the left wing party is the one offering the centrist, safe friendly prospectus. Whereas the right wing party is the one motivated by wild radical types.

    Labour is operating as the natural party of government and the conservatives increasingly like to position themselves as an opposition.

    Since the next election is a change election, how will that play out?

    Yes the Conservatives may try to run (again) on "the last years of government have been terrible, vote for us!" but I don't think it's going to work next time.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,653
    edited February 2023
    Profile of the group of women behind much of the critical analysis of Sturgeon’s GRR Bill…

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/human-beings-cant-change-sex-were-not-clownfish-its-fixed-at-birth-v58zffkvv
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,221
    India whipping some Aussie arses in the Test.

    In fact, apart from Todd Murphy the Aussie performance has been pretty dreadful.
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    General observation: The number of people, not just on this platform, who find it impossible to separate their analysis of what is likely to happen from what they would personally like to happen, is astonishing, and deeply irritating.

    https://twitter.com/HeleneBismarck/status/1624127830538739712

    And not remotely surprising….
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    kamski said:

    Jonathan said:

    The other interesting thing is that these days, the left wing party is the one offering the centrist, safe friendly prospectus. Whereas the right wing party is the one motivated by wild radical types.

    Labour is operating as the natural party of government and the conservatives increasingly like to position themselves as an opposition.

    Since the next election is a change election, how will that play out?

    Yes the Conservatives may try to run (again) on "the last years of government have been terrible, vote for us!" but I don't think it's going to work next time.
    It’s the next Tory manifesto that befuddles me. I swear Sunak is going to a run on an “ I deliver, don’t risk it” ticket. Which after the last five years is an absurd position. It’s also hard to see what on earth they will promise. A few tax payer bribes, naturally, but the Tory party is split in pretty much every way imaginable. It’s hard to see what direction they offer.
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    Welcome to PB, Mr. Gonatas. Is that an Antigonid reference?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,221
    gonatas said:

    Good morning. This is my first post so please be gentle.
    I wonder, apropos of the debate about a possible Labour majority, whether this would be a better result for the Tories in the long term than NOM.
    If, after large poll leads and a truly dreadful Government, the Labour Party cannot win a majority at the next GE, might they not conclude, egged on by the LDs and Greens, that PR is the way to go?
    If that happens what price the Conservatives then?

    Welcome.

    And yes. The Tories would also benefit from being forced to reflect on just how badly they threw away a golden opportunity - indeed, a series of golden opportunities - to genuinely change this country for the better and leave things, amazingly, in a worse state than in 2010.
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    Last night I read the Seymour Hersch's piece. I am probably late to the party and I am sure much more competent people than me have already take a stab at it, but here I wrote down a couple of points about the part on the activation of underwater mines.…

    Spoiler: it doesn't makes much sense.

    If you haven't read Hersch's essay, here you can find it. To me it reads as a great Hollywood script, more than an accurate account of events. Below I explain why.….

    Summary of all: if the CIA had hired me to run this operation, I would have come up with a much cheaper plan that would have raised much less suspicion.


    https://twitter.com/Mauro_Gilli/status/1624021500662611970
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,221
    What utter prat chose Matt Renshaw instead of Travis Head?

    At least Head can bowl spin as well!
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,605
    gonatas said:

    Good morning. This is my first post so please be gentle.
    I wonder, apropos of the debate about a possible Labour majority, whether this would be a better result for the Tories in the long term than NOM.
    If, after large poll leads and a truly dreadful Government, the Labour Party cannot win a majority at the next GE, might they not conclude, egged on by the LDs and Greens, that PR is the way to go?
    If that happens what price the Conservatives then?

    Greetings!

    Certainly a Lab majority requires a swing that we haven't seen in a very long time, but all the indications are that is what is going to happen.

    PR would be good for the country provided the right method is chosen that allows voters rather than parties to order the list.

    One major advantage is that in PR systems old parties can split or die, and new ones form more easily. Our current system is fossilised to the benefit of the cliques running the two major parties.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,221
    Peter Handscomb showing the same level of application and technical skill he showed for Middlesex and Gloucestershire, and is out for 6 as a result.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,605
    Jonathan said:

    kamski said:

    Jonathan said:

    The other interesting thing is that these days, the left wing party is the one offering the centrist, safe friendly prospectus. Whereas the right wing party is the one motivated by wild radical types.

    Labour is operating as the natural party of government and the conservatives increasingly like to position themselves as an opposition.

    Since the next election is a change election, how will that play out?

    Yes the Conservatives may try to run (again) on "the last years of government have been terrible, vote for us!" but I don't think it's going to work next time.
    It’s the next Tory manifesto that befuddles me. I swear Sunak is going to a run on an “ I deliver, don’t risk it” ticket. Which after the last five years is an absurd position. It’s also hard to see what on earth they will promise. A few tax payer bribes, naturally, but the Tory party is split in pretty much every way imaginable. It’s hard to see what direction they offer.
    I think the Tories are going to go with a "sound finances" policy at the centre, hence the Hunt budget of tax rises and spending restrictions.

    Not entirely plausible from the government that gave us Trussonomics and the KamiKwasi budget, and has many members who voted for it, and even still believe it, but I think that's the way they will go. It is a Thatcherite policy now.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,586
    The White Helmets are absolute heroes. Every single one of them.

    This extraordinary video played out dozens, hundreds of times throughout NW #Syria this week — the @SyriaCivilDefe deserve every accolade out there.

    https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister/status/1624210423829434369
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,221
    Bloody hell Alex, even Shane Watson wouldn't have bothered reviewing that one.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,221
    68-7!

    This *is* fun!
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    OT how many UFO sightings since President Biden started shooting down spies in the sky?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,277
    ydoethur said:

    Bloody hell Alex, even Shane Watson wouldn't have bothered reviewing that one.

    It's an absolute massacre. The Ashes might be a lot more fun than I thought.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,221
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Bloody hell Alex, even Shane Watson wouldn't have bothered reviewing that one.

    It's an absolute massacre. The Ashes might be a lot more fun than I thought.
    Somehow I doubt if the Aussies will play this badly in the Ashes, but it's still very entertaining.

    Cricinfo: If Australia had conjured a worst-case scenario for how the opening game of this series could go, reckon it wouldn't be far from this. Hard to argue with that.

    But if they pick the wrong side, play the wrong shots and bowl the wrong lengths, well, they've only themselves to blame frankly. Only Murphy, and perhaps to a lesser extent Labuschagne and Smith come out with any credit at all.
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    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,796
    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    kamski said:

    Jonathan said:

    The other interesting thing is that these days, the left wing party is the one offering the centrist, safe friendly prospectus. Whereas the right wing party is the one motivated by wild radical types.

    Labour is operating as the natural party of government and the conservatives increasingly like to position themselves as an opposition.

    Since the next election is a change election, how will that play out?

    Yes the Conservatives may try to run (again) on "the last years of government have been terrible, vote for us!" but I don't think it's going to work next time.
    It’s the next Tory manifesto that befuddles me. I swear Sunak is going to a run on an “ I deliver, don’t risk it” ticket. Which after the last five years is an absurd position. It’s also hard to see what on earth they will promise. A few tax payer bribes, naturally, but the Tory party is split in pretty much every way imaginable. It’s hard to see what direction they offer.
    I think the Tories are going to go with a "sound finances" policy at the centre, hence the Hunt budget of tax rises and spending restrictions.

    Not entirely plausible from the government that gave us Trussonomics and the KamiKwasi budget, and has many members who voted for it, and even still believe it, but I think that's the way they will go. It is a Thatcherite policy now.
    Will just be interesting to see how 'sound finances' does against a general strike, high mortgage interest rate rises, etc, housing crisis with less than 50% home ownership, no policy to increase housebuilding and therefore home ownership, collapse in housebuilding anyway due to excessive regulation, middle class real pay decreases, widespread decline in living standards etc, no policy on automation/AI displacing jobs, etc.

    Its just another variation of the thatcher live action role play, after one that Truss tried and failed at.

    I genuinely don't know if it will work or not, but it could. If Labour come out with spectacular spending promises, as is their natural instinct, then it may work.

    My frustration with the tories is primarily that they are not tackling other underlying causes of our malaise, like various forms of over regulation. Also they are stuffing the mouths of certain groups (pensioners, the over 65s) with gold, at the expense of other groups.

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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,991
    On the current polling Labour are going to win a big majority. However if Sunak can win back 2019 Tories going DK or to RefUK he can still get a hung parliament. That requires cutting borrowing enough to enable tax cuts before the next general election in particular. Remember too Cameron was heading for a landslide majority in 2009 but Brown pulled it back to get to a hung parliament by polling day in 2010.

    Changing the leader now would make sod all difference. Indeed if anything Sunak polls better than the Conservative Party overall now
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,221
    I put the 'fluence on Murphy.

    But with a highest first class score of 34, I don't think we should judge him too harshly.
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    HYUFD said:

    On the current polling Labour are going to win a big majority. However if Sunak can win back 2019 Tories going DK or to RefUK he can still get a hung parliament. That requires cutting borrowing enough to enable tax cuts before the next general election in particular. Remember too Cameron was heading for a landslide majority in 2009 but Brown pulled it back to get to a hung parliament by polling day in 2010.

    Changing the leader now would make sod all difference. Indeed if anything Sunak polls better than the Conservative Party overall now

    Getting inflation under control ie sub 3% so that people can regain confidence in the value of their money is absolutely key!

    And even then LAB will probably win.
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    Welcome to PB, Mr. Gonatas. Is that an Antigonid reference?

    Thank you. It is indeed - and I can walk the walk.
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    Thanks for engaging, ydoethur.
    I'd overlooked the "which decade is 1970 in" issue, although if you say 2010 was in the 2000s then the answer is the 2010s!

    I meant to define "decades" as the 1950s, the 1990s etc, so I was thinking the 1940s.

    Yes, I'm an irritatingly pedantic Maths teacher (who still managed to overlook the 0 issue) but even I's struggle to argue 1 was not an odd number!
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    edited February 2023
    ydoethur said:

    68-7!

    This *is* fun!

    75/8 now.

    Watching the evening session this afternoon, was supposed to be my excuse to go to the pub early. Guess now I’ll have to wait for the rugby.

    Looking forward to the Ashes now though!
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,221
    edited February 2023

    Thanks for engaging, ydoethur.
    I'd overlooked the "which decade is 1970 in" issue, although if you say 2010 was in the 2000s then the answer is the 2010s!

    I meant to define "decades" as the 1950s, the 1990s etc, so I was thinking the 1940s.

    Yes, I'm an irritatingly pedantic Maths teacher (who still managed to overlook the 0 issue) but even I's struggle to argue 1 was not an odd number!

    My maths teacher used to argue it didn't meet the definition, because it couldn't divide by itself *and* 1.

    She may well have been talking bollocks, of course. It sounded like bollocks at the time, but to be honest I just drifted amiably through my maths lessons trying not to get into trouble, so I didn't really care either way.

    Still got a B, and I've no idea how.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,146
    I see the European Super League is back from the tomb

    It is, again, destined for failure because they won’t get any English teams, almost certainly no German teams. PSG also unlikely, and lesser teams in Spain and Italy will be deeply wary

    Which doesn’t leave much

    What European league football needs is consolidation. Benelux should be a league, perhaps with France. Germany should incorporate Austria and Switzerland, and the Nordic countries? Italy would be in an Adriatic league with Croatia, Slovenia etc

    A British Isles league would be UK plus Eire. Maybe a western Med league of Spain and Portugal. Etc

    Then you could regularly see Rangers v Man United. Benfica v Barca. PSG v Ajax
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,231
    Unless there is a radical change in the polling the next election is going to see 100+ and maybe a lot more Tory MPs losing their seats and that must be making them feel very nervous at the moment.
    I think 8-12 months ago, when Johnson was still PM, the deteriorating polling position was something that made MPs nervous, and it will have been one reason why they eventually decided to pull the plug on his leadership.

    However, I think the trauma of the Seven Weeks of Liz Truss, and in particular the Twenty-Two Days period from the mini-budget on 23rd September to the sacking of Kwasi Kwarteng on 14th October, was so intense and overwhelming, that many Tory MPs are now resigned to inevitable defeat at the next general election.

    It might be that, as the moment approaches this sense of resignation will dispel. The prospect of a Labour government lording it over them will become more immediate and galvanising. We've seen how that has affected some posters on pb.com. I just don't see it.

    I don't think it is possible to over-emphasise how traumatic the Truss Premiership will have been. Things happened under her leadership at such a pace, and with such reckless incompetence on the part of Cabinet, that were truly shocking. Even those critical of Truss before her appointment could not have imagined that it would have become such a disaster so quickly. The idea of ditching Sunak opens up the risk of repeating the Truss experience with another leader. Who can say whether any of the putative replacements will go off the rails in a similar way? The trauma-induced response that Tory MPs will feel at the possibility will surely see them recoil from it.

    Sunak and Hunt, by contrast, are safe. They represent a world in which you can be confident in the survival of the pension industry, where the government will be able to fund its spending, and Sterling will be convertible to other currencies at broadly predictable rates. Electoral oblivion will be preferable than running the risk of repeating the trauma.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896

    HYUFD said:

    On the current polling Labour are going to win a big majority. However if Sunak can win back 2019 Tories going DK or to RefUK he can still get a hung parliament. That requires cutting borrowing enough to enable tax cuts before the next general election in particular. Remember too Cameron was heading for a landslide majority in 2009 but Brown pulled it back to get to a hung parliament by polling day in 2010.

    Changing the leader now would make sod all difference. Indeed if anything Sunak polls better than the Conservative Party overall now

    Getting inflation under control ie sub 3% so that people can regain confidence in the value of their money is absolutely key!

    And even then LAB will probably win.
    Getting the economy doing well made little difference in 1997. But Starmer is no Blair, even if Sunak is starting to look like a 2009-era Gordon Brown, afraid to do anything.

    As others have said, there’s little road to a Lab majority that doesn’t go through Scotland. Thankfully, it does look like the wheels are starting to wobble on the nationalist wagon.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,991

    HYUFD said:

    On the current polling Labour are going to win a big majority. However if Sunak can win back 2019 Tories going DK or to RefUK he can still get a hung parliament. That requires cutting borrowing enough to enable tax cuts before the next general election in particular. Remember too Cameron was heading for a landslide majority in 2009 but Brown pulled it back to get to a hung parliament by polling day in 2010.

    Changing the leader now would make sod all difference. Indeed if anything Sunak polls better than the Conservative Party overall now

    Getting inflation under control ie sub 3% so that people can regain confidence in the value of their money is absolutely key!

    And even then LAB will probably win.
    Which requires an end to the Ukraine war. Even if Labour win if the war is still going on it would then be Labour's problem in government to deal with getting inflation down
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,221
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    On the current polling Labour are going to win a big majority. However if Sunak can win back 2019 Tories going DK or to RefUK he can still get a hung parliament. That requires cutting borrowing enough to enable tax cuts before the next general election in particular. Remember too Cameron was heading for a landslide majority in 2009 but Brown pulled it back to get to a hung parliament by polling day in 2010.

    Changing the leader now would make sod all difference. Indeed if anything Sunak polls better than the Conservative Party overall now

    Getting inflation under control ie sub 3% so that people can regain confidence in the value of their money is absolutely key!

    And even then LAB will probably win.
    Getting the economy doing well made little difference in 1997. But Starmer is no Blair, even if Sunak is starting to look like a 2009-era Gordon Brown, afraid to do anything.

    As others have said, there’s little road to a Lab majority that doesn’t go through Scotland. Thankfully, it does look like the wheels are starting to wobble on the nationalist wagon.
    Also Starmer is starting from 75 seats further back, even before boundary changes (although there were changes in 1997 as well).

    Remember, a Blair style swing gives Starmer a majority of 1.

    That's the scale of his challenge and why a Labour majority remains a bit of a long shot.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274
    Apologies if these two have been posted already; I haven't seen them:

    Hitchin North (Hertfordshire) council by-election result:

    LAB: 65.8% (+12.7)
    CON: 17.4% (-9.5)
    GRN: 13.7% (+3.3)
    CHR: 3.1% (+3.1) (Christian People's Alliance)

    No LDem (-9.5) as prev.

    Votes cast: 3,026; Labour HOLD.

    Masham and Fountains (North Yorkshire) council by-election result:

    LDEM: 62.7% (+37.3)
    CON: 37.3% (-7.0)

    No Ind (-30.3) as prev.

    Votes cast: 2,150; Liberal Democrat GAIN from Conservative.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,221
    edited February 2023
    88/8. Not a scoreline you see too often in Tests.

    We're not seeing it now either, cos it's 88/9!
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,231
    ydoethur said:

    India whipping some Aussie arses in the Test.

    In fact, apart from Todd Murphy the Aussie performance has been pretty dreadful.

    Interesting to note the run rates - under 3 rpo in all three innings. England's current approach not yet inspiring much imitation.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,991

    Unless there is a radical change in the polling the next election is going to see 100+ and maybe a lot more Tory MPs losing their seats and that must be making them feel very nervous at the moment.
    I think 8-12 months ago, when Johnson was still PM, the deteriorating polling position was something that made MPs nervous, and it will have been one reason why they eventually decided to pull the plug on his leadership.

    However, I think the trauma of the Seven Weeks of Liz Truss, and in particular the Twenty-Two Days period from the mini-budget on 23rd September to the sacking of Kwasi Kwarteng on 14th October, was so intense and overwhelming, that many Tory MPs are now resigned to inevitable defeat at the next general election.

    It might be that, as the moment approaches this sense of resignation will dispel. The prospect of a Labour government lording it over them will become more immediate and galvanising. We've seen how that has affected some posters on pb.com. I just don't see it.

    I don't think it is possible to over-emphasise how traumatic the Truss Premiership will have been. Things happened under her leadership at such a pace, and with such reckless incompetence on the part of Cabinet, that were truly shocking. Even those critical of Truss before her appointment could not have imagined that it would have become such a disaster so quickly. The idea of ditching Sunak opens up the risk of repeating the Truss experience with another leader. Who can say whether any of the putative replacements will go off the rails in a similar way? The trauma-induced response that Tory MPs will feel at the possibility will surely see them recoil from it.

    Sunak and Hunt, by contrast, are safe. They represent a world in which you can be confident in the survival of the pension industry, where the government will be able to fund its spending, and Sterling will be convertible to other currencies at broadly predictable rates. Electoral oblivion will be preferable than running the risk of repeating the trauma.
    On even the worst current polls Sunak is still heading for 50 to 100 Tory seats.

    Truss was heading for literally 0 Tory seats in the worst polls under her
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,796
    edited February 2023
    Just for the benefit of anyone here, I will repeat my long standing recommendation to the labour party in terms of its policy on Housing.
    - Pick a few areas around London which are not that developed, but have little to no landscape value, and extremely high conservative majorities.
    - Put together a 'housing for the future plan' which involves building a million houses in these areas.
    - Say that you will grant 'planning permission in principle' for a million houses by way of an act of parliament in the first 100 days of office, in these areas
    - Watch the tories go absolutely insane, watch the internal battles, watch all the nimby tendencies in the liberal democrats and the green party come to the fore... for a total niche issue that has no political downside for the labour party, because they never win in these areas anyway.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667
    HYUFD said:

    Unless there is a radical change in the polling the next election is going to see 100+ and maybe a lot more Tory MPs losing their seats and that must be making them feel very nervous at the moment.
    I think 8-12 months ago, when Johnson was still PM, the deteriorating polling position was something that made MPs nervous, and it will have been one reason why they eventually decided to pull the plug on his leadership.

    However, I think the trauma of the Seven Weeks of Liz Truss, and in particular the Twenty-Two Days period from the mini-budget on 23rd September to the sacking of Kwasi Kwarteng on 14th October, was so intense and overwhelming, that many Tory MPs are now resigned to inevitable defeat at the next general election.

    It might be that, as the moment approaches this sense of resignation will dispel. The prospect of a Labour government lording it over them will become more immediate and galvanising. We've seen how that has affected some posters on pb.com. I just don't see it.

    I don't think it is possible to over-emphasise how traumatic the Truss Premiership will have been. Things happened under her leadership at such a pace, and with such reckless incompetence on the part of Cabinet, that were truly shocking. Even those critical of Truss before her appointment could not have imagined that it would have become such a disaster so quickly. The idea of ditching Sunak opens up the risk of repeating the Truss experience with another leader. Who can say whether any of the putative replacements will go off the rails in a similar way? The trauma-induced response that Tory MPs will feel at the possibility will surely see them recoil from it.

    Sunak and Hunt, by contrast, are safe. They represent a world in which you can be confident in the survival of the pension industry, where the government will be able to fund its spending, and Sterling will be convertible to other currencies at broadly predictable rates. Electoral oblivion will be preferable than running the risk of repeating the trauma.
    On even the worst current polls Sunak is still heading for 50 to 100 Tory seats.

    Truss was heading for literally 0 Tory seats in the worst polls under her
    Plenty of time yet HY ;-)
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,221
    edited February 2023
    88 all out.

    ROLFMFAO!!!!

    Edit - you have got to be joking. No ball?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    88 all out. Not Aussie cricket’s finest hour.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,277
    Nigelb said:

    The White Helmets are absolute heroes. Every single one of them.

    This extraordinary video played out dozens, hundreds of times throughout NW #Syria this week — the @SyriaCivilDefe deserve every accolade out there.

    https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister/status/1624210423829434369

    I'm in tears. Such humanity.
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,529
    Jonathan said:

    The other interesting thing is that these days, the left wing party is the one offering the centrist, safe friendly prospectus. Whereas the right wing party is the one motivated by wild radical types.

    Labour is operating as the natural party of government and the conservatives increasingly like to position themselves as an opposition.

    Since the next election is a change election, how will that play out?

    Yes. I think they would be wise to go easy on one or two things. The replacement of the HoL with an elected chamber looks like a recipe for the well known problem of having more than one nationally elected power base, each claiming legitimacy and producing conflict and deadlock. Labour should soften and amend. ATM we have one chamber full of idiots and another with enough brains to revise, advise and amend, though also full of less able placemen. Sharpen the act please SKS.

    And promise a full review of Brexit arrangements before the election, with EFTA/EEA as the result after the election, subject to a referendum.

    Finally, black swan events occur more and more. Who would have bet the farm on Labour on the day of the Hartlepool election? This was as recently as 6th May 2021. Feels longer.

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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,598
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    68-7!

    This *is* fun!

    75/8 now.

    Watching the evening session this afternoon, was supposed to be my excuse to go to the pub early. Guess now I’ll have to wait for the rugby.

    Looking forward to the Ashes now though!
    No, watching Australia suffer against other teams is like watching Tory mid term poll deficits. You just know that when the Ashes come they’ll suddenly get swing back. Australia are basically the Tories of world cricket.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667
    edited February 2023
    HYUFD said:

    On the current polling Labour are going to win a big majority. However if Sunak can win back 2019 Tories going DK or to RefUK he can still get a hung parliament. That requires cutting borrowing enough to enable tax cuts before the next general election in particular. Remember too Cameron was heading for a landslide majority in 2009 but Brown pulled it back to get to a hung parliament by polling day in 2010.

    Changing the leader now would make sod all difference. Indeed if anything Sunak polls better than the Conservative Party overall now

    I misread your post earlier.

    'Cutting borrowing enough to enable tax cuts' is an interesting concept.

    What you really mean is 'massively cutting public spending to cut borrowing AND enable tax cuts'.
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    ydoethur said:

    88/8. Not a scoreline you see too often in Tests.

    We're not seeing it now either, cos it's 88/9!

    What's the fuss, this is convict on colonial action. As someone said to a MCC toff who applauded a fine shot at a Lancs/Yorks match, Bugger off, it's nowt to do wi' thee.
  • Options
    Mr. Leon, does the EPL need to change? It's one of the biggest sports leagues in the world and, I believe, the biggest football league anywhere.

    It sounds like Juventus and Barcelona have overspent and want a new league so they can rake in more cash.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,277
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    On the current polling Labour are going to win a big majority. However if Sunak can win back 2019 Tories going DK or to RefUK he can still get a hung parliament. That requires cutting borrowing enough to enable tax cuts before the next general election in particular. Remember too Cameron was heading for a landslide majority in 2009 but Brown pulled it back to get to a hung parliament by polling day in 2010.

    Changing the leader now would make sod all difference. Indeed if anything Sunak polls better than the Conservative Party overall now

    Getting inflation under control ie sub 3% so that people can regain confidence in the value of their money is absolutely key!

    And even then LAB will probably win.
    Getting the economy doing well made little difference in 1997. But Starmer is no Blair, even if Sunak is starting to look like a 2009-era Gordon Brown, afraid to do anything.

    As others have said, there’s little road to a Lab majority that doesn’t go through Scotland. Thankfully, it does look like the wheels are starting to wobble on the nationalist wagon.
    Also Starmer is starting from 75 seats further back, even before boundary changes (although there were changes in 1997 as well).

    Remember, a Blair style swing gives Starmer a majority of 1.

    That's the scale of his challenge and why a Labour majority remains a bit of a long shot.
    Yes, the market is definitely overpricing the majority. But the Tories are going to be hammered.

    And there it is, the 10th wicket.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,221
    *waits for the review*

    YESSSSSSS!!!

    NOW I can ROFLMFAO.

    Australia lose by an innings and 132 runs.

    That is an absolute shellacking.
  • Options
    Fckn hell, IDS as the conscience of the Tory party/HMG inspires some strange feelings.

    I noticed that the usual suspects had gone a bit quiet over China.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,221

    ydoethur said:

    88/8. Not a scoreline you see too often in Tests.

    We're not seeing it now either, cos it's 88/9!

    What's the fuss, this is convict on colonial action. As someone said to a MCC toff who applauded a fine shot at a Lancs/Yorks match, Bugger off, it's nowt to do wi' thee.
    My hero is a young man at the Oval in 2005.

    On his T-shirt was the following legend.

    'I support 2 teams.

    New Zealand and whoever is playing Australia.'
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,605
    darkage said:

    Just for the benefit of anyone here, I will repeat my long standing recommendation to the labour party in terms of its policy on Housing.
    - Pick a few areas around London which are not that developed, but have little to no landscape value, and extremely high conservative majorities.
    - Put together a 'housing for the future plan' which involves building a million houses in these areas.
    - Say that you will grant 'planning permission in principle' for a million houses by way of an act of parliament in the first 100 days of office, in these areas
    - Watch the tories go absolutely insane, watch the internal battles, watch all the nimby tendencies in the liberal democrats and the green party come to the fore... for a total niche issue that has no political downside for the labour party, because they never win in these areas anyway.

    I think there is potential for a "New Towns" programme not dissimilar to the postwar ones. The key though is not the houses themselves, but rather employment, hence the need for good transport connections.

    Convert HS2 to a line with a stop every 15-20 miles between London and Brum with a New Town centered on each stop, with road junction links to the near parallel M40 for business parks. The towns themselves constructed to encourage cycling etc as a form of commuting.

    I suspect such towns would be very attractive to people and businesses.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,529
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    On the current polling Labour are going to win a big majority. However if Sunak can win back 2019 Tories going DK or to RefUK he can still get a hung parliament. That requires cutting borrowing enough to enable tax cuts before the next general election in particular. Remember too Cameron was heading for a landslide majority in 2009 but Brown pulled it back to get to a hung parliament by polling day in 2010.

    Changing the leader now would make sod all difference. Indeed if anything Sunak polls better than the Conservative Party overall now

    Getting inflation under control ie sub 3% so that people can regain confidence in the value of their money is absolutely key!

    And even then LAB will probably win.
    Getting the economy doing well made little difference in 1997. But Starmer is no Blair, even if Sunak is starting to look like a 2009-era Gordon Brown, afraid to do anything.

    As others have said, there’s little road to a Lab majority that doesn’t go through Scotland. Thankfully, it does look like the wheels are starting to wobble on the nationalist wagon.
    Also Starmer is starting from 75 seats further back, even before boundary changes (although there were changes in 1997 as well).

    Remember, a Blair style swing gives Starmer a majority of 1.

    That's the scale of his challenge and why a Labour majority remains a bit of a long shot.
    ICYMI this and the chart in the middle is useful to cut out and keep, especially for those like who find complicated sums hard and like to keep it simple.



    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/the-next-general-election-will-be-labours-to-lose




  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667
    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    The other interesting thing is that these days, the left wing party is the one offering the centrist, safe friendly prospectus. Whereas the right wing party is the one motivated by wild radical types.

    Labour is operating as the natural party of government and the conservatives increasingly like to position themselves as an opposition.

    Since the next election is a change election, how will that play out?

    Yes. I think they would be wise to go easy on one or two things. The replacement of the HoL with an elected chamber looks like a recipe for the well known problem of having more than one nationally elected power base, each claiming legitimacy and producing conflict and deadlock. Labour should soften and amend. ATM we have one chamber full of idiots and another with enough brains to revise, advise and amend, though also full of less able placemen. Sharpen the act please SKS.

    And promise a full review of Brexit arrangements before the election, with EFTA/EEA as the result after the election, subject to a referendum.

    Finally, black swan events occur more and more. Who would have bet the farm on Labour on the day of the Hartlepool election? This was as recently as 6th May 2021. Feels longer.

    All good points, tbf.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896
    darkage said:

    Just for the benefit of anyone here, I will repeat my long standing recommendation to the labour party in terms of its policy on Housing.
    - Pick a few areas around London which are not that developed, but have little to no landscape value, and extremely high conservative majorities.
    - Put together a 'housing for the future plan' which involves building a million houses in these areas.
    - Say that you will grant 'planning permission in principle' for a million houses by way of an act of parliament in the first 100 days of office, in these areas
    - Watch the tories go absolutely insane, watch the internal battles, watch all the nimby tendencies in the liberal democrats and the green party come to the fore... for a total niche issue that has no political downside for the labour party, because they never win in these areas anyway.

    With government that doesn’t see itself being re-elected, but still with a healthy majority at the moment, it’s disappointing not to see a good look not being taken at the “too-difficult list” - housing, social care, defence, higher education, infrastructure, and many more.

    That said, it’s good to see Kemi take over at Business, where some time spent on eliminating red tape might bear fruit, albeit not before the election.
  • Options

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Roy, the Conservatives would bite your hand off to only be decimated at the next election.

    Feeling quietly confident of my Lab majority bet (tipped by someone here... perhaps Ishmael Z).

    I believe he tipped and backed at 5/1 and cashed out at evens. An odious fellow, but with sound instincts on some matters.

    Is there a tory leader at next GE market anywhere? There sometimes is, but can't find one. If yes back Sunak at almost any price, because he will call one rather than be ousted.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,221
    Foxy said:

    darkage said:

    Just for the benefit of anyone here, I will repeat my long standing recommendation to the labour party in terms of its policy on Housing.
    - Pick a few areas around London which are not that developed, but have little to no landscape value, and extremely high conservative majorities.
    - Put together a 'housing for the future plan' which involves building a million houses in these areas.
    - Say that you will grant 'planning permission in principle' for a million houses by way of an act of parliament in the first 100 days of office, in these areas
    - Watch the tories go absolutely insane, watch the internal battles, watch all the nimby tendencies in the liberal democrats and the green party come to the fore... for a total niche issue that has no political downside for the labour party, because they never win in these areas anyway.

    I think there is potential for a "New Towns" programme not dissimilar to the postwar ones. The key though is not the houses themselves, but rather employment, hence the need for good transport connections.

    Convert HS2 to a line with a stop every 15-20 miles between London and Brum with a New Town centered on each stop, with road junction links to the near parallel M40 for business parks. The towns themselves constructed to encourage cycling etc as a form of commuting.

    I suspect such towns would be very attractive to people and businesses.
    No, Foxy, that would destroy the capacity on it without freeing up space on the WCML and make its construction entirely meaningless. Moreover, it's being built now to high speed standards whereas lower speed railways would require a different spec.

    There are plenty of other lines to reopen or improve if you want commuter trains at slower speeds.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,231
    Leon said:

    I see the European Super League is back from the tomb

    It is, again, destined for failure because they won’t get any English teams, almost certainly no German teams. PSG also unlikely, and lesser teams in Spain and Italy will be deeply wary

    Which doesn’t leave much

    What European league football needs is consolidation. Benelux should be a league, perhaps with France. Germany should incorporate Austria and Switzerland, and the Nordic countries? Italy would be in an Adriatic league with Croatia, Slovenia etc

    A British Isles league would be UK plus Eire. Maybe a western Med league of Spain and Portugal. Etc

    Then you could regularly see Rangers v Man United. Benfica v Barca. PSG v Ajax

    The Football Association of Ireland is gearing up for the new soccer season in Ireland by releasing the good news that a handful of teams have sold more than 1,000 season tickets for the season ahead. I don't know what level of the English football pyramid that would put the biggest Irish clubs at, probably struggling to cling on in League 2, and it would make the chances of soccer competing against rugby, or GAA, even slimmer.

    It's one thing to have Shamrock Rovers competing against Derry City to become Irish champions, quite another to have them scrapping against Crawley Town and Hartlepool United to stay in the fourth or fifth, or even sixth, tier of a football pyramid for all of Britain and Ireland.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667
    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    Just for the benefit of anyone here, I will repeat my long standing recommendation to the labour party in terms of its policy on Housing.
    - Pick a few areas around London which are not that developed, but have little to no landscape value, and extremely high conservative majorities.
    - Put together a 'housing for the future plan' which involves building a million houses in these areas.
    - Say that you will grant 'planning permission in principle' for a million houses by way of an act of parliament in the first 100 days of office, in these areas
    - Watch the tories go absolutely insane, watch the internal battles, watch all the nimby tendencies in the liberal democrats and the green party come to the fore... for a total niche issue that has no political downside for the labour party, because they never win in these areas anyway.

    With government that doesn’t see itself being re-elected, but still with a healthy majority at the moment, it’s disappointing not to see a good look not being taken at the “too-difficult list” - housing, social care, defence, higher education, infrastructure, and many more.

    That said, it’s good to see Kemi take over at Business, where some time spent on eliminating red tape might bear fruit, albeit not before the election.
    'Cutting red-tape' and 'efficiency-savings' are worse than a pair of unicorns. Every government promises to do these things; none do. Quite the opposite in fact.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,628
    edited February 2023
    HYUFD said:

    On the current polling Labour are going to win a big majority. However if Sunak can win back 2019 Tories going DK or to RefUK he can still get a hung parliament. That requires cutting borrowing enough to enable tax cuts before the next general election in particular. Remember too Cameron was heading for a landslide majority in 2009 but Brown pulled it back to get to a hung parliament by polling day in 2010.

    Changing the leader now would make sod all difference. Indeed if anything Sunak polls better than the Conservative Party overall now

    From your point of view what would be a better result for the future of the Tories and the country, a hung parliament with a coalition of the current opposition or a significant labour majority? And why?
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    Thanks for engaging, ydoethur.
    I'd overlooked the "which decade is 1970 in" issue, although if you say 2010 was in the 2000s then the answer is the 2010s!

    I meant to define "decades" as the 1950s, the 1990s etc, so I was thinking the 1940s.

    Yes, I'm an irritatingly pedantic Maths teacher (who still managed to overlook the 0 issue) but even I's struggle to argue 1 was not an odd number!

    My maths teacher used to argue it didn't meet the definition, because it couldn't divide by itself *and* 1.

    She may well have been talking bollocks, of course. It sounded like bollocks at the time, but to be honest I just drifted amiably through my maths lessons trying not to get into trouble, so I didn't really care either way.

    Still got a B, and I've no idea how.
    That's the definition of a prime number, rather than an odd number.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,605

    Mr. Leon, does the EPL need to change? It's one of the biggest sports leagues in the world and, I believe, the biggest football league anywhere.

    It sounds like Juventus and Barcelona have overspent and want a new league so they can rake in more cash.

    What the "Big 6" don't like is that the other 14 teams actually give them very tough games a lot of the time, and occasionally there are usurpers like Leicester, Newcastle or Brighton. They want fewer domestic games so they can play in Europe, which they see as more exciting.

    Most of all they want to fossilised that Big 6 so they get European football every year, despite being as pisspoor as Liverpool or Chelsea are at the moment. They are simply arrogant and entitled.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,796
    Foxy said:

    darkage said:

    Just for the benefit of anyone here, I will repeat my long standing recommendation to the labour party in terms of its policy on Housing.
    - Pick a few areas around London which are not that developed, but have little to no landscape value, and extremely high conservative majorities.
    - Put together a 'housing for the future plan' which involves building a million houses in these areas.
    - Say that you will grant 'planning permission in principle' for a million houses by way of an act of parliament in the first 100 days of office, in these areas
    - Watch the tories go absolutely insane, watch the internal battles, watch all the nimby tendencies in the liberal democrats and the green party come to the fore... for a total niche issue that has no political downside for the labour party, because they never win in these areas anyway.

    I think there is potential for a "New Towns" programme not dissimilar to the postwar ones. The key though is not the houses themselves, but rather employment, hence the need for good transport connections.

    Convert HS2 to a line with a stop every 15-20 miles between London and Brum with a New Town centered on each stop, with road junction links to the near parallel M40 for business parks. The towns themselves constructed to encourage cycling etc as a form of commuting.

    I suspect such towns would be very attractive to people and businesses.
    I was reading an interesting report on Poundbury, it argues that one of its problems is poor connectivity to employment.

    https://www.centreforcities.org/blog/turning-30-has-poundbury-aged-well/

    Essentially the problem with all of this is that building new communities along the lines you are suggesting is a 50 year project, and politics intervenes, so it is hard to see it ever happening.

    My idea for the labour party is not a serious solution to the housing and planning problems, it is just an equally stupid response to the policies devised in this area by the tories over the last decade.

  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,146

    Mr. Leon, does the EPL need to change? It's one of the biggest sports leagues in the world and, I believe, the biggest football league anywhere.

    It sounds like Juventus and Barcelona have overspent and want a new league so they can rake in more cash.

    Yes, juve and Barca are essentially bankrupt. This is why they keep trying the same desperate move, they have absolutely no desire to ‘share’ revenue with ‘50 other clubs’, they just want a slice of the money going into English football

    However the present set-up feels unsustainable - when Real Madrid can be outspent by Bournemouth something is awry. The answer - as I said - is consolidation of domestic leagues, into bigger leagues - but that will require the ‘great’ clubs to show humility. Hmmm
  • Options

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Roy, the Conservatives would bite your hand off to only be decimated at the next election.

    Feeling quietly confident of my Lab majority bet (tipped by someone here... perhaps Ishmael Z).

    I believe he tipped and backed at 5/1 and cashed out at evens. An odious fellow, but with sound instincts on some matters.

    Is there a tory leader at next GE market anywhere? There sometimes is, but can't find one. If yes back Sunak at almost any price, because he will call one rather than be ousted.
    I think he will be leader at the General Election, but not for the reason you give.

    If neither Johnson nor Truss seriously tried to press the button on an election when they were imperilled, despite speculation they may, Sunak is hardly going to. He's a much more conventional politician than either of them.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,231
    Foxy said:

    Mr. Leon, does the EPL need to change? It's one of the biggest sports leagues in the world and, I believe, the biggest football league anywhere.

    It sounds like Juventus and Barcelona have overspent and want a new league so they can rake in more cash.

    What the "Big 6" don't like is that the other 14 teams actually give them very tough games a lot of the time, and occasionally there are usurpers like Leicester, Newcastle or Brighton. They want fewer domestic games so they can play in Europe, which they see as more exciting.

    Most of all they want to fossilised that Big 6 so they get European football every year, despite being as pisspoor as Liverpool or Chelsea are at the moment. They are simply arrogant and entitled.
    As businesses what they want is certainty and predictability. They don't want to see one poor season on the field damage their cash flow.

    Most sports fans thrive on the excitement of uncertainty and the thrill of the unexpected.

    The interests of the big clubs and of the fans are diametrically opposed.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667

    Leon said:

    I see the European Super League is back from the tomb

    It is, again, destined for failure because they won’t get any English teams, almost certainly no German teams. PSG also unlikely, and lesser teams in Spain and Italy will be deeply wary

    Which doesn’t leave much

    What European league football needs is consolidation. Benelux should be a league, perhaps with France. Germany should incorporate Austria and Switzerland, and the Nordic countries? Italy would be in an Adriatic league with Croatia, Slovenia etc

    A British Isles league would be UK plus Eire. Maybe a western Med league of Spain and Portugal. Etc

    Then you could regularly see Rangers v Man United. Benfica v Barca. PSG v Ajax

    The Football Association of Ireland is gearing up for the new soccer season in Ireland by releasing the good news that a handful of teams have sold more than 1,000 season tickets for the season ahead. I don't know what level of the English football pyramid that would put the biggest Irish clubs at, probably struggling to cling on in League 2, and it would make the chances of soccer competing against rugby, or GAA, even slimmer.

    It's one thing to have Shamrock Rovers competing against Derry City to become Irish champions, quite another to have them scrapping against Crawley Town and Hartlepool United to stay in the fourth or fifth, or even sixth, tier of a football pyramid for all of Britain and Ireland.
    Leon is great on travel, food, wine, recreational drugs, debauchery, conspiracy theories, and a few other important topics but his knowledge of sport is enough to make me look like an expert. And believe me I am no expert.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    On the current polling Labour are going to win a big majority. However if Sunak can win back 2019 Tories going DK or to RefUK he can still get a hung parliament. That requires cutting borrowing enough to enable tax cuts before the next general election in particular. Remember too Cameron was heading for a landslide majority in 2009 but Brown pulled it back to get to a hung parliament by polling day in 2010.

    Changing the leader now would make sod all difference. Indeed if anything Sunak polls better than the Conservative Party overall now

    From your point of view what would be a better result for the future of the Tories and the country, a hung parliament with a coalition of the current opposition or a significant labour majority? And why?
    Same question occurred to me. Does HY really prefer a Labour administration in hoc to the SNP?
  • Options

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Roy, the Conservatives would bite your hand off to only be decimated at the next election.

    Feeling quietly confident of my Lab majority bet (tipped by someone here... perhaps Ishmael Z).

    I believe he tipped and backed at 5/1 and cashed out at evens. An odious fellow, but with sound instincts on some matters.

    Is there a tory leader at next GE market anywhere? There sometimes is, but can't find one. If yes back Sunak at almost any price, because he will call one rather than be ousted.
    I think he will be leader at the General Election, but not for the reason you give.

    If neither Johnson nor Truss seriously tried to press the button on an election when they were imperilled, despite speculation they may, Sunak is hardly going to. He's a much more conventional politician than either of them.
    Timescale. It would look petulant mid term, it is much more easily disguised as prudent politics in the last 18 months. Major got no plaudits for hanging in there.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,605
    darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    darkage said:

    Just for the benefit of anyone here, I will repeat my long standing recommendation to the labour party in terms of its policy on Housing.
    - Pick a few areas around London which are not that developed, but have little to no landscape value, and extremely high conservative majorities.
    - Put together a 'housing for the future plan' which involves building a million houses in these areas.
    - Say that you will grant 'planning permission in principle' for a million houses by way of an act of parliament in the first 100 days of office, in these areas
    - Watch the tories go absolutely insane, watch the internal battles, watch all the nimby tendencies in the liberal democrats and the green party come to the fore... for a total niche issue that has no political downside for the labour party, because they never win in these areas anyway.

    I think there is potential for a "New Towns" programme not dissimilar to the postwar ones. The key though is not the houses themselves, but rather employment, hence the need for good transport connections.

    Convert HS2 to a line with a stop every 15-20 miles between London and Brum with a New Town centered on each stop, with road junction links to the near parallel M40 for business parks. The towns themselves constructed to encourage cycling etc as a form of commuting.

    I suspect such towns would be very attractive to people and businesses.
    I was reading an interesting report on Poundbury, it argues that one of its problems is poor connectivity to employment.

    https://www.centreforcities.org/blog/turning-30-has-poundbury-aged-well/

    Essentially the problem with all of this is that building new communities along the lines you are suggesting is a 50 year project, and politics intervenes, so it is hard to see it ever happening.

    My idea for the labour party is not a serious solution to the housing and planning problems, it is just an equally stupid response to the policies devised in this area by the tories over the last decade.

    The postwar "New Towns" were not designed as commuter towns, but rather as integrated communities with shopping centres and employment built in.

    Not all of these schemes worked, not least because the decline of manufacturing industry meant that the work was ephemeral, and not well suited to the skill set of the inhabitants, largely from working class communities in inner city slums.

    The concept is one worth revisiting for the 21st century.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,995
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    On the current polling Labour are going to win a big majority. However if Sunak can win back 2019 Tories going DK or to RefUK he can still get a hung parliament. That requires cutting borrowing enough to enable tax cuts before the next general election in particular. Remember too Cameron was heading for a landslide majority in 2009 but Brown pulled it back to get to a hung parliament by polling day in 2010.

    Changing the leader now would make sod all difference. Indeed if anything Sunak polls better than the Conservative Party overall now

    Getting inflation under control ie sub 3% so that people can regain confidence in the value of their money is absolutely key!

    And even then LAB will probably win.
    Which requires an end to the Ukraine war. Even if Labour win if the war is still going on it would then be Labour's problem in government to deal with getting inflation down
    Prigozhin, who seems to be one of the few people involved in this whole conflict with some connection to reality, did an interesting interview on Pegov's TG channel. He reckons 18-24 months to take Donbas (presume he means DPR/LPR) and 3 years to get to the Dnieper. Sounds about right at the current rate of RF progress.

    He also said PMC Wagner are running low on zeks so they are stepping up recruitment efforts in the Balkans, SE Asia, Africa and the US.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,628

    Leon said:

    I see the European Super League is back from the tomb

    It is, again, destined for failure because they won’t get any English teams, almost certainly no German teams. PSG also unlikely, and lesser teams in Spain and Italy will be deeply wary

    Which doesn’t leave much

    What European league football needs is consolidation. Benelux should be a league, perhaps with France. Germany should incorporate Austria and Switzerland, and the Nordic countries? Italy would be in an Adriatic league with Croatia, Slovenia etc

    A British Isles league would be UK plus Eire. Maybe a western Med league of Spain and Portugal. Etc

    Then you could regularly see Rangers v Man United. Benfica v Barca. PSG v Ajax

    The Football Association of Ireland is gearing up for the new soccer season in Ireland by releasing the good news that a handful of teams have sold more than 1,000 season tickets for the season ahead. I don't know what level of the English football pyramid that would put the biggest Irish clubs at, probably struggling to cling on in League 2, and it would make the chances of soccer competing against rugby, or GAA, even slimmer.

    It's one thing to have Shamrock Rovers competing against Derry City to become Irish champions, quite another to have them scrapping against Crawley Town and Hartlepool United to stay in the fourth or fifth, or even sixth, tier of a football pyramid for all of Britain and Ireland.
    Leon is great on travel, food, wine, recreational drugs, debauchery, conspiracy theories, and a few other important topics but his knowledge of sport is enough to make me look like an expert. And believe me I am no expert.
    Made me smile mainly because I had a vision of him producing his GCSE certificate on Debauchery.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667
    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    On the current polling Labour are going to win a big majority. However if Sunak can win back 2019 Tories going DK or to RefUK he can still get a hung parliament. That requires cutting borrowing enough to enable tax cuts before the next general election in particular. Remember too Cameron was heading for a landslide majority in 2009 but Brown pulled it back to get to a hung parliament by polling day in 2010.

    Changing the leader now would make sod all difference. Indeed if anything Sunak polls better than the Conservative Party overall now

    Getting inflation under control ie sub 3% so that people can regain confidence in the value of their money is absolutely key!

    And even then LAB will probably win.
    Which requires an end to the Ukraine war. Even if Labour win if the war is still going on it would then be Labour's problem in government to deal with getting inflation down
    Prigozhin, who seems to be one of the few people involved in this whole conflict with some connection to reality, did an interesting interview on Pegov's TG channel. He reckons 18-24 months to take Donbas (presume he means DPR/LPR) and 3 years to get to the Dnieper. Sounds about right at the current rate of RF progress.

    He also said PMC Wagner are running low on zeks so they are stepping up recruitment efforts in the Balkans, SE Asia, Africa and the US.
    Apologies for partially re-posting something from last night but I went to a very interesting talk and Q&A on the Ukraine war yesterday, given by Geoffrey Till, naval historian and professor of military strategy at the US Naval War College.

    Some random take aways:
    - long conflict / frozen war the most likely near future outcome;
    - US can't produce ammunition at the rate it's being expended by Ukraine [which I found surprising];
    - keeping the western unity is key;
    - nuclear escalation extremely unlikely;
    - taking out Putin could easily make the situation worse rather than resolve it.

    And of course: no one knows because all the experts have been pitifully wrong so far.

    Interesting evening though.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667
    edited February 2023
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    I see the European Super League is back from the tomb

    It is, again, destined for failure because they won’t get any English teams, almost certainly no German teams. PSG also unlikely, and lesser teams in Spain and Italy will be deeply wary

    Which doesn’t leave much

    What European league football needs is consolidation. Benelux should be a league, perhaps with France. Germany should incorporate Austria and Switzerland, and the Nordic countries? Italy would be in an Adriatic league with Croatia, Slovenia etc

    A British Isles league would be UK plus Eire. Maybe a western Med league of Spain and Portugal. Etc

    Then you could regularly see Rangers v Man United. Benfica v Barca. PSG v Ajax

    The Football Association of Ireland is gearing up for the new soccer season in Ireland by releasing the good news that a handful of teams have sold more than 1,000 season tickets for the season ahead. I don't know what level of the English football pyramid that would put the biggest Irish clubs at, probably struggling to cling on in League 2, and it would make the chances of soccer competing against rugby, or GAA, even slimmer.

    It's one thing to have Shamrock Rovers competing against Derry City to become Irish champions, quite another to have them scrapping against Crawley Town and Hartlepool United to stay in the fourth or fifth, or even sixth, tier of a football pyramid for all of Britain and Ireland.
    Leon is great on travel, food, wine, recreational drugs, debauchery, conspiracy theories, and a few other important topics but his knowledge of sport is enough to make me look like an expert. And believe me I am no expert.
    Made me smile mainly because I had a vision of him producing his GCSE certificate on Debauchery.
    Old video from Leon's schooldays...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRD0-7NSXd8
  • Options

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Roy, the Conservatives would bite your hand off to only be decimated at the next election.

    Feeling quietly confident of my Lab majority bet (tipped by someone here... perhaps Ishmael Z).

    I believe he tipped and backed at 5/1 and cashed out at evens. An odious fellow, but with sound instincts on some matters.

    Is there a tory leader at next GE market anywhere? There sometimes is, but can't find one. If yes back Sunak at almost any price, because he will call one rather than be ousted.
    I think he will be leader at the General Election, but not for the reason you give.

    If neither Johnson nor Truss seriously tried to press the button on an election when they were imperilled, despite speculation they may, Sunak is hardly going to. He's a much more conventional politician than either of them.
    Timescale. It would look petulant mid term, it is much more easily disguised as prudent politics in the last 18 months. Major got no plaudits for hanging in there.
    I don't agree with your idea it would be "easily disguised" if he was calling an election to avoid a confidence vote.

    I also simply don't think he'd be interested in doing it as he is quite conventional and I don't think he's going to say "well, sod the lot of you - I'm burning down the farm" which is essentially what a pre-emptive election means - "back me or sack me" invites only one answer from the electorate, and he knows it.

    Sunak believes the best result after a Conservative win is a fairly narrow defeat (which I don't think is the Johnson view - he's more sh1t or bust). He believes he needs to go into an election saying, "I've provided 18 months of stability and sanity after several whacky years." Going in on the back of a leadership crisis just doesn't do that.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,146

    Leon said:

    I see the European Super League is back from the tomb

    It is, again, destined for failure because they won’t get any English teams, almost certainly no German teams. PSG also unlikely, and lesser teams in Spain and Italy will be deeply wary

    Which doesn’t leave much

    What European league football needs is consolidation. Benelux should be a league, perhaps with France. Germany should incorporate Austria and Switzerland, and the Nordic countries? Italy would be in an Adriatic league with Croatia, Slovenia etc

    A British Isles league would be UK plus Eire. Maybe a western Med league of Spain and Portugal. Etc

    Then you could regularly see Rangers v Man United. Benfica v Barca. PSG v Ajax

    The Football Association of Ireland is gearing up for the new soccer season in Ireland by releasing the good news that a handful of teams have sold more than 1,000 season tickets for the season ahead. I don't know what level of the English football pyramid that would put the biggest Irish clubs at, probably struggling to cling on in League 2, and it would make the chances of soccer competing against rugby, or GAA, even slimmer.

    It's one thing to have Shamrock Rovers competing against Derry City to become Irish champions, quite another to have them scrapping against Crawley Town and Hartlepool United to stay in the fourth or fifth, or even sixth, tier of a football pyramid for all of Britain and Ireland.
    No, because money would flow into Irish football from England. I can see a new Dublin side competing in the EPL+ with good crowds

    But Ireland is a sideshow anyway

    The big win for British footie would be rescuing Rangers and Celtic. If the Old Firm had regular games against Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City, Liverpool that would be a new level of excitement for everyone. And then the big Scottish teams could return to European greatness
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,605

    Foxy said:

    Mr. Leon, does the EPL need to change? It's one of the biggest sports leagues in the world and, I believe, the biggest football league anywhere.

    It sounds like Juventus and Barcelona have overspent and want a new league so they can rake in more cash.

    What the "Big 6" don't like is that the other 14 teams actually give them very tough games a lot of the time, and occasionally there are usurpers like Leicester, Newcastle or Brighton. They want fewer domestic games so they can play in Europe, which they see as more exciting.

    Most of all they want to fossilised that Big 6 so they get European football every year, despite being as pisspoor as Liverpool or Chelsea are at the moment. They are simply arrogant and entitled.
    As businesses what they want is certainty and predictability. They don't want to see one poor season on the field damage their cash flow.

    Most sports fans thrive on the excitement of uncertainty and the thrill of the unexpected.

    The interests of the big clubs and of the fans are diametrically opposed.
    Yes, that is the fun of it all. In the last decade or so I have seen serial promotions, a relegation battle, a Premier League win, Champions League, UEFA Cup, UEFA Conference League, FA Cup win, Chartity Shield win and now another relegation battle. Being a Leicester City fan is a wild ride.

    Interesting to see our new signings against Spurs today. Leicester vs Spurs matches are nearly always entertaining goal festivals, though not recently good ones for my team. Football though produces surprises so probably a grim nil nil draw or 1 goal on a contested VAR penalty!
This discussion has been closed.