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New Ipsos poll sees sharp decline in Sunak’s ratings – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,015
edited February 2023 in General
imageNew Ipsos poll sees sharp decline in Sunak’s ratings – politicalbetting.com

The Standard is reporting:

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  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,096
    First, unlike Sunak.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited January 2023
    Even just 32% believing Sunak is a good PM is higher than the current Tory voteshare. He still outpolls his party
  • Options
    This is consistent across all polls now.

    Sunak is going down and is becoming Gordon Brown.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983

    This is consistent across all polls now.

    Sunak is going down and is becoming Gordon Brown.

    Brown got a hung parliament in 2010
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Anyone who had to deal with a problem like Zahawi knows that it is difficult because of allegation & counter-allegation.

    I personally favour all allegations against politicians being investigated quickly, then a report (& evidence) being made public and swift action taken.

    So, Sunak does seem to me to have handled this OK. Just as the Labour Party did OK over the allegations regarding Chris Matheson, ex MP for Chester. They did not suspend him until after an independent report that confirmed that the sexual harassment allegations were true.

    If you sack people just because there is an allegation, then you end up with instances like Conor Burns. He was cleared of all wrongdoing after a sexual harassment story was leaked to the public, but by then he had been sacked. The alleged victim hadn’t made a complaint & AIUI there was no evidence of misconduct.

    Now in Zahawi's case, tax law is complex and his affairs were (probably) in the hands of a tax advisor. So, whether he was personally culpable did need a bit of time to investigate.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Even just 32% believing Sunak is a good PM is higher than the current Tory voteshare. He still outpolls his party

    And so he should.

    If he were entirely representative of the Party, or even the Parliamentary Party, you guys wouldn't have too much to worry about. You certainly wouldn't be facing the possibility of meltdown.

    As it is....well you know how it is.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    This is consistent across all polls now.

    Sunak is going down and is becoming Gordon Brown.

    Brown got a hung parliament in 2010
    And Labour have been out of power since.

    Accept it mate, you're out.
  • Options

    A thousand new Ambulances sounds good but if they are just making a longer queue outside a&e

    Remember when you told us how good Johnson was? Are you sure you want to support the Tories again?

    Hope you're keeping well BJO
    Hope you are well too CHB

    From memory my only real area of support for Johnson was the levelling up Agenda that has led to a number of transformational changes in my local area (Staveley).

    I also contrast that to what previous Tory and Labour Governments did for Staveley (Bugger All)

    What investments in the NHS are you expecting from a SKS/Reeves led Government?

    I go for the aforesaid bugger all

    I will not vote at all in GE2024 or vote Green but will be glad to see the Tories out without expectation of anything good from Lab.
    Doing better thanks, glad you're back posting - you always keep me on my toes with good humour :)

    Johnson was the worst PM in British history, poor form from you mate.
    In some areas he was the worst

    He was probably the laziest and the most in it for himself

    I can agree with you as far as that.

    Anyway all the best hope you continue to improve
    Thanks mate, I do consider you a good friend on these forums, for whatever that is worth.

    In every area he was awful mate, I am afraid as a Labour supporter I am disappointed you supported the charlatan
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited January 2023
    I am getting to the point where I would not be surprised if Sunak didn't make it through the summer.
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    Sunak is being pulled down by two factors under his direct and immediate control. The Prime Minister should settle the strikes, where largely the public is on the side of the strikers, and get rid of ministers who have crossed the line.

    Sunak has been compared to Brown on this thread. Perhaps the similarity is years as Chancellors used to pondering fine detail for months, then not appreciating the change of pace needed in Number 10. Zahawi could have been axed weeks ago, for instance. Both are also being asked to cos play the once-popular previous leader, which means they are pressed into daft stunts.
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,119
    Rishi Sunak claims he 'acted pretty decisively'.

    Is there no competent advice available to the prime minister of the UK about how things will sound?
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    This is consistent across all polls now.

    Sunak is going down and is becoming Gordon Brown.

    Brown got a hung parliament in 2010
    If you offered Sunak 258 seats now, I think he'd be advised to accept before you changed your mind. It probably puts Labour on 290-300ish and just about makes the SNP irrelevant.
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    Best thing you can say about Sunak is that he’s not Truss or Johnson or the rest of the freak show that is the modern freak show that is the Tory Party.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,500


    Anyone who had to deal with a problem like Zahawi knows that it is difficult because of allegation & counter-allegation.

    I personally favour all allegations against politicians being investigated quickly, then a report (& evidence) being made public and swift action taken.

    So, Sunak does seem to me to have handled this OK. Just as the Labour Party did OK over the allegations regarding Chris Matheson, ex MP for Chester. They did not suspend him until after an independent report that confirmed that the sexual harassment allegations were true.

    If you sack people just because there is an allegation, then you end up with instances like Conor Burns. He was cleared of all wrongdoing after a sexual harassment story was leaked to the public, but by then he had been sacked. The alleged victim hadn’t made a complaint & AIUI there was no evidence of misconduct.

    Now in Zahawi's case, tax law is complex and his affairs were (probably) in the hands of a tax advisor. So, whether he was personally culpable did need a bit of time to investigate.

    Though his offence was his failure to disclose his dispute with HMRC, rather than the dispute itself.
    All the enquiry did was reveal he had failed to disclose it on several more occasions.

    I don't see he has any defence to that either before or after the enquiry.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,500
    LOL

    JAMES COMER: We're investigating the Biden family for influence peddling

    CNN'S PAMELA BROWN: But why not investigate the Trump family for the same?

    COMER: We have no evidence

    BROWN: What evidence do you have for Biden?

    COMER: That's what we're investigating

    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1619869216345100288
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    HYUFD said:

    This is consistent across all polls now.

    Sunak is going down and is becoming Gordon Brown.

    Brown got a hung parliament in 2010
    If you offered Sunak 258 seats now, I think he'd be advised to accept before you changed your mind. It probably puts Labour on 290-300ish and just about makes the SNP irrelevant.
    The underlying assumption behind the Sunak premiership may be false. Tories hope that he will deliver competent management and save Tory seats in the longer term. I am not sure that's what's playing out. If his mission is to minimise Tory loses, going early might be the best plan.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,500
    “Countries with relatively recent experience of Soviet occupation, see no benefit in holding what they have in reserve until the Russian army arrives on their territory.”
    https://twitter.com/azamatistan/status/1619677551806521344

    Though curiously the electorate in the former DDR is more opposed to support for Ukraine than is the rest of the German electorate.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited January 2023
    Nigelb said:


    Anyone who had to deal with a problem like Zahawi knows that it is difficult because of allegation & counter-allegation.

    I personally favour all allegations against politicians being investigated quickly, then a report (& evidence) being made public and swift action taken.

    So, Sunak does seem to me to have handled this OK. Just as the Labour Party did OK over the allegations regarding Chris Matheson, ex MP for Chester. They did not suspend him until after an independent report that confirmed that the sexual harassment allegations were true.

    If you sack people just because there is an allegation, then you end up with instances like Conor Burns. He was cleared of all wrongdoing after a sexual harassment story was leaked to the public, but by then he had been sacked. The alleged victim hadn’t made a complaint & AIUI there was no evidence of misconduct.

    Now in Zahawi's case, tax law is complex and his affairs were (probably) in the hands of a tax advisor. So, whether he was personally culpable did need a bit of time to investigate.

    Though his offence was his failure to disclose his dispute with HMRC, rather than the dispute itself.
    All the enquiry did was reveal he had failed to disclose it on several more occasions.

    I don't see he has any defence to that either before or after the enquiry.
    Once upon a time, when I ran an organisation, I had to deal with a serious case of bullying.

    Although it was pretty obvious to me that the alleged bully was likely guilty, it still took over 6 months.

    The alleged bully's defence still actually needed to be examined.

    And all the while, folks were saying: why has @YBarddCwsc not taken swift action against bullying?
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,166
    Jonathan said:

    I am getting to the point where I would not be surprised if Sunak didn't make it through the summer.

    Sunak became leader to put a stop to the chaos of Liz Truss. Provided he can avoid a run on Sterling or a debt crisis, I think enough MPs will stick with him to see him through to the election.

    I don't think there are enough MPs willing to risk a repeat of Liz Truss, which might result if Johnson returns as PM, or Braverman wins the next leadership contest, to give Sunak the push out.
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited January 2023
    Sunak could take a bold but risky decision - sacking Raab, Braverman, and Richard Sharp in one move.

    The charming but unassuming chap suddenly ripping off his Italian suit to reveal the Superman sign underneath.
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    Sir Keir Starmer fans please explain?
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    I am getting to the point where I would not be surprised if Sunak didn't make it through the summer.

    Sunak became leader to put a stop to the chaos of Liz Truss. Provided he can avoid a run on Sterling or a debt crisis, I think enough MPs will stick with him to see him through to the election.

    I don't think there are enough MPs willing to risk a repeat of Liz Truss, which might result if Johnson returns as PM, or Braverman wins the next leadership contest, to give Sunak the push out.
    Sunak is toast the moment a majority of his MPs think they stand a better chance of saving their seats with Boris (or A.N. Other). Looking at Tory MPs, we are one bad set of election results away from that moment.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,180
    Chris said:

    Rishi Sunak claims he 'acted pretty decisively'.

    Is there no competent advice available to the prime minister of the UK about how things will sound?

    I'm not too down on Sunak over this one. What I can't understand is why Zahawi didn't resign days ago. I blame him, obviously, but I'm afraid I also blame Boris Johnson. Ok of course our politics was no enclave of angels before him - we can all reach back for examples - but Johnson has taken it into the toilet. Given he still lurks with intent in the Tory Party, his appeal undimmed with many MPs and large parts of the membership, I don't see how things can improve much until they're out of office.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    Have we actually had the independent report into Zahawi published?

    It looks from the outside, as if Sunak has chosen an arbitrary date to sack the minister, having waited so long that the damage to his own reputation has been done, while not actually waiting for the report that he himself commissioned? Worst of all worlds for the PM.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,326

    Sir Keir Starmer fans please explain?

    If you take all the parties that are not Labour, add them to the Conservative polling number, multiply by 2.7, close one eye and look at the polls just so...

    Conservative lead.
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    I love Forest Friends.


  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,166
    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    This is consistent across all polls now.

    Sunak is going down and is becoming Gordon Brown.

    Brown got a hung parliament in 2010
    If you offered Sunak 258 seats now, I think he'd be advised to accept before you changed your mind. It probably puts Labour on 290-300ish and just about makes the SNP irrelevant.
    The underlying assumption behind the Sunak premiership may be false. Tories hope that he will deliver competent management and save Tory seats in the longer term. I am not sure that's what's playing out. If his mission is to minimise Tory loses, going early might be the best plan.
    Many dozens of Tory MPs will lose their seats in an early general election. Another 12-18 months of receiving an MPs salary, and to create a new career plan, might be worth another couple of dozen lost seats. The incentives for individual MPs are not necessarily what we think they are.
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,119
    kinabalu said:

    Chris said:

    Rishi Sunak claims he 'acted pretty decisively'.

    Is there no competent advice available to the prime minister of the UK about how things will sound?

    I'm not too down on Sunak over this one. What I can't understand is why Zahawi didn't resign days ago. I blame him, obviously, but I'm afraid I also blame Boris Johnson. Ok of course our politics was no enclave of angels before him - we can all reach back for examples - but Johnson has taken it into the toilet. Given he still lurks with intent in the Tory Party, his appeal undimmed with many MPs and large parts of the membership, I don't see how things can improve much until they're out of office.
    Well, I just can't imagine how Sunak thought Zahawi could survive, just based on what was in the papers, let alone what Sunak could/should/must have known as prime minister.

    But really my point was about how feeble the "pretty decisively" sounded, in the circumstances. Even if you've been a pathetically weak ditherer, for God's sake tell people you've been an iron fist (if necessary in a velvet glove of due process)!
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    Sandpit said:

    Have we actually had the independent report into Zahawi published?

    It looks from the outside, as if Sunak has chosen an arbitrary date to sack the minister, having waited so long that the damage to his own reputation has been done, while not actually waiting for the report that he himself commissioned? Worst of all worlds for the PM.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/advice-from-the-independent-adviser-on-ministers-interests-january-2023/letter-from-sir-laurie-magnus-to-the-prime-minister-29-january-2023--2
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,988
    Sandpit said:

    Have we actually had the independent report into Zahawi published?

    It looks from the outside, as if Sunak has chosen an arbitrary date to sack the minister, having waited so long that the damage to his own reputation has been done, while not actually waiting for the report that he himself commissioned? Worst of all worlds for the PM.

    Here it is

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1132735/Letter_from_Sir_Laurie_Magnus_to_the_Prime_Minister__29_January_2023.pdf
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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,166
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I am getting to the point where I would not be surprised if Sunak didn't make it through the summer.

    Sunak became leader to put a stop to the chaos of Liz Truss. Provided he can avoid a run on Sterling or a debt crisis, I think enough MPs will stick with him to see him through to the election.

    I don't think there are enough MPs willing to risk a repeat of Liz Truss, which might result if Johnson returns as PM, or Braverman wins the next leadership contest, to give Sunak the push out.
    Sunak is toast the moment a majority of his MPs think they stand a better chance of saving their seats with Boris (or A.N. Other). Looking at Tory MPs, we are one bad set of election results away from that moment.
    I think the growing number of Tory MPs who have announced they are quitting the Commons at the next election betrays a Parliamentary party that has given up hope of winning the next election. They've accepted the inevitability of it.

    Sunak's job is simply to mind the shop, and prevent it from burning down, until closing time. He's essentially an administrator for a government that is being wound up. Everything Must Go.

    There will be no management buyout, no private capital rescue deal. That's been tried and the accounts took such a hammering that there's nothing left to save.
  • Options
    Chris said:

    kinabalu said:

    Chris said:

    Rishi Sunak claims he 'acted pretty decisively'.

    Is there no competent advice available to the prime minister of the UK about how things will sound?

    I'm not too down on Sunak over this one. What I can't understand is why Zahawi didn't resign days ago. I blame him, obviously, but I'm afraid I also blame Boris Johnson. Ok of course our politics was no enclave of angels before him - we can all reach back for examples - but Johnson has taken it into the toilet. Given he still lurks with intent in the Tory Party, his appeal undimmed with many MPs and large parts of the membership, I don't see how things can improve much until they're out of office.
    Well, I just can't imagine how Sunak thought Zahawi could survive, just based on what was in the papers, let alone what Sunak could/should/must have known as prime minister.

    But really my point was about how feeble the "pretty decisively" sounded, in the circumstances. Even if you've been a pathetically weak ditherer, for God's sake tell people you've been an iron fist (if necessary in a velvet glove of due process)!
    "Hell yes, I'm tough enough..."

    https://youtu.be/ZpZkPf7ogDc
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,500

    Nigelb said:


    Anyone who had to deal with a problem like Zahawi knows that it is difficult because of allegation & counter-allegation.

    I personally favour all allegations against politicians being investigated quickly, then a report (& evidence) being made public and swift action taken.

    So, Sunak does seem to me to have handled this OK. Just as the Labour Party did OK over the allegations regarding Chris Matheson, ex MP for Chester. They did not suspend him until after an independent report that confirmed that the sexual harassment allegations were true.

    If you sack people just because there is an allegation, then you end up with instances like Conor Burns. He was cleared of all wrongdoing after a sexual harassment story was leaked to the public, but by then he had been sacked. The alleged victim hadn’t made a complaint & AIUI there was no evidence of misconduct.

    Now in Zahawi's case, tax law is complex and his affairs were (probably) in the hands of a tax advisor. So, whether he was personally culpable did need a bit of time to investigate.

    Though his offence was his failure to disclose his dispute with HMRC, rather than the dispute itself.
    All the enquiry did was reveal he had failed to disclose it on several more occasions.

    I don't see he has any defence to that either before or after the enquiry.
    Once upon a time, when I ran an organisation, I had to deal with a serious case of bullying.

    Although it was pretty obvious to me that the alleged bully was likely guilty, it still took over 6 months.

    The alleged bully's defence still actually needed to be examined.

    And all the while, folks were saying: why has @YBarddCwsc not taken swift action against bullying?
    Sure (and I have had a not entirely dissimilar experience).

    But that simply doesn't apply to ministerial posts. There's no right to 'due process' if the PM wants to sack you - and in this case it was clear from Zahawi's own public statements, before the 'enquiry', that he'd failed to disclose a pretty clear conflict of interest.

    And he wasn't sacked because of an allegation, but because of what he failed to tell the PM.

    That a load of the public think he fiddled his tax doesn't help the PR side of things, but the precise detail of his dispute with HMRC really doesn't matter.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    This is consistent across all polls now.

    Sunak is going down and is becoming Gordon Brown.

    Brown got a hung parliament in 2010
    With the LDs then on about twice their current level of support. Those missing LDs will be voting Lab not Con.
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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,166
    Sandpit said:

    Have we actually had the independent report into Zahawi published?

    It looks from the outside, as if Sunak has chosen an arbitrary date to sack the minister, having waited so long that the damage to his own reputation has been done, while not actually waiting for the report that he himself commissioned? Worst of all worlds for the PM.

    My understanding was that the day of letters, yesterday, included a letter from the ethics person to Sunak that constituted the report so commissioned.
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    kamskikamski Posts: 4,239
    Nigelb said:

    “Countries with relatively recent experience of Soviet occupation, see no benefit in holding what they have in reserve until the Russian army arrives on their territory.”
    https://twitter.com/azamatistan/status/1619677551806521344

    Though curiously the electorate in the former DDR is more opposed to support for Ukraine than is the rest of the German electorate.

    Also Hungary, and southeast Europe generally.

    The (mis)quote is a bit misleading, the article actually says:
    "These countries [Latvia, Lithuania and Poland], with relatively recent experience of Soviet occupation, see no benefit in holding what they have in reserve until the Russian army arrives on their territory."

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    eekeek Posts: 24,955
    is it possible that both parties are lying? That would be my default viewpoint in such circumstances.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    edited January 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Though his offence was his failure to disclose his dispute with HMRC, rather than the dispute itself.
    All the enquiry did was reveal he had failed to disclose it on several more occasions.

    I don't see he has any defence to that either before or after the enquiry.

    Exactly it's the failure to disclose the dispute and penalty, which is relatively simple, that has brought him down. Not the dispute itself which is almost certainly too complicated for anyone who is not a tax expert.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,326
    Hmmm

    Given that the Russians seem to threaten nuclear war whenever there is a “y” in the name of the day, claiming that Putin *didn't* make a threat would be the questionable statement.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859

    Sandpit said:

    Have we actually had the independent report into Zahawi published?

    It looks from the outside, as if Sunak has chosen an arbitrary date to sack the minister, having waited so long that the damage to his own reputation has been done, while not actually waiting for the report that he himself commissioned? Worst of all worlds for the PM.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/advice-from-the-independent-adviser-on-ministers-interests-january-2023/letter-from-sir-laurie-magnus-to-the-prime-minister-29-january-2023--2
    Shukran habibi.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    If you were a Tory MP, would you prefer to stick with Sunak or twist with Boris?
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549

    Hmmm

    Given that the Russians seem to threaten nuclear war whenever there is a “y” in the name of the day, claiming that Putin *didn't* make a threat would be the questionable statement.
    "Damn it! I forget to threaten nuclear war, now I've broken my streak."
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    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,137
    Jonathan said:

    I am getting to the point where I would not be surprised if Sunak didn't make it through the summer.

    Who is the Truss who is prepared to go down with the ship (or indeed, before the ship actually sinks) to have "PM" on their CV?
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    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Though his offence was his failure to disclose his dispute with HMRC, rather than the dispute itself.
    All the enquiry did was reveal he had failed to disclose it on several more occasions.

    I don't see he has any defence to that either before or after the enquiry.

    Exactly it's the failure to disclose the dispute and penalty, which is relatively simple, that has brought him down. Not the dispute itself which is almost certainly too complicated for anyone who is not a tax expert.
    I think he had seven opportunities to give the correct information.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,500
    Jonathan said:

    If you were a Tory MP, would you prefer to stick with Sunak or twist with Boris?

    That would depend on whether or not you want TSE actively campaigning for Labour...
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    I did wonder hearing Boris speaking about missiles, whether Putin meant a literal missile or a figurative missile of compromat which damage Boris personally. The sort of nuance that is lost in translation and with time.
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,119

    Chris said:

    kinabalu said:

    Chris said:

    Rishi Sunak claims he 'acted pretty decisively'.

    Is there no competent advice available to the prime minister of the UK about how things will sound?

    I'm not too down on Sunak over this one. What I can't understand is why Zahawi didn't resign days ago. I blame him, obviously, but I'm afraid I also blame Boris Johnson. Ok of course our politics was no enclave of angels before him - we can all reach back for examples - but Johnson has taken it into the toilet. Given he still lurks with intent in the Tory Party, his appeal undimmed with many MPs and large parts of the membership, I don't see how things can improve much until they're out of office.
    Well, I just can't imagine how Sunak thought Zahawi could survive, just based on what was in the papers, let alone what Sunak could/should/must have known as prime minister.

    But really my point was about how feeble the "pretty decisively" sounded, in the circumstances. Even if you've been a pathetically weak ditherer, for God's sake tell people you've been an iron fist (if necessary in a velvet glove of due process)!
    "Hell yes, I'm tough enough..."

    https://youtu.be/ZpZkPf7ogDc
    Obviously I wouldn't recommend handling it in precisely that way.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,610
    Interesting pre-print paper which explores possible reasons for the unexpectedly high number of transgender people in Newham & Brent:

    https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/yw45p/
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    RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,157

    HYUFD said:

    This is consistent across all polls now.

    Sunak is going down and is becoming Gordon Brown.

    Brown got a hung parliament in 2010
    And Labour have been out of power since.

    Accept it mate, you're out.
    Two big reasons that Cameron failed to get a majority in 2010 were:
    -Unlike 2015, he failed to crush the Lib Dems
    -He only won a single seat in Scotland

    By comparison
    1) Labour aren't really competing with the Lib Dems over any Tory seats they could realistically win
    2) While a full recovery of their seats in Scotland is very unrealistic, Labour will do better there than Cameron/the Tories did in 2010

    While I don't think Labour will win a landslide, I do think they'll manage to get a working majority (IMHO, they will do better in England & Wales than they did in 2005, though obviously won't do as well they did in Scotland).
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,610
    The SNP wants 16-year-olds to be able to change gender. But its own sentencing quango says brains don’t fully mature until the age of 25. How can these both be coherent policies?

    https://twitter.com/GrahamGGrant/status/1620029292284612610
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    Yet again Martha Kearney got to the nub of the issue on Today this morning.

    Why has Zahawi not had the whip removed. Sunak is saying that a liar is not allowed to be in cabinet but it is perfectly acceptable to have one as a Cons MP.
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,119
    Chris said:


    Chris said:

    kinabalu said:

    Chris said:

    Rishi Sunak claims he 'acted pretty decisively'.

    Is there no competent advice available to the prime minister of the UK about how things will sound?

    I'm not too down on Sunak over this one. What I can't understand is why Zahawi didn't resign days ago. I blame him, obviously, but I'm afraid I also blame Boris Johnson. Ok of course our politics was no enclave of angels before him - we can all reach back for examples - but Johnson has taken it into the toilet. Given he still lurks with intent in the Tory Party, his appeal undimmed with many MPs and large parts of the membership, I don't see how things can improve much until they're out of office.
    Well, I just can't imagine how Sunak thought Zahawi could survive, just based on what was in the papers, let alone what Sunak could/should/must have known as prime minister.

    But really my point was about how feeble the "pretty decisively" sounded, in the circumstances. Even if you've been a pathetically weak ditherer, for God's sake tell people you've been an iron fist (if necessary in a velvet glove of due process)!
    "Hell yes, I'm tough enough..."

    https://youtu.be/ZpZkPf7ogDc
    Obviously I wouldn't recommend handling it in precisely that way.
    Miliband's boast that he had faced down even the Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg hasn't aged well.
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    "The quiet, unexpected vindication of the Euro", according to Greece's main centre-right newspaper.

    https://www.ekathimerini.com/opinion/1203435/the-quiet-unexpected-vindication-of-the-euro/
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,119
    TOPPING said:

    Yet again Martha Kearney got to the nub of the issue on Today this morning.

    Why has Zahawi not had the whip removed. Sunak is saying that a liar is not allowed to be in cabinet but it is perfectly acceptable to have one as a Cons MP.

    To be fair there are ample precedents for liars retaining the Tory whip.
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    TazTaz Posts: 11,127

    The SNP wants 16-year-olds to be able to change gender. But its own sentencing quango says brains don’t fully mature until the age of 25. How can these both be coherent policies?

    https://twitter.com/GrahamGGrant/status/1620029292284612610

    SNP and coherent, well they don't exactly sit together

    When asked about 16 year olds being able to purchase alcohol the first Minister, after initially seeming to accept it, backtracked and it was an emphatic no from the puritans.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,955
    Jonathan said:

    If you were a Tory MP, would you prefer to stick with Sunak or twist with Boris?

    Only a problem until the Standards Committee report on how below Standard Bozo's behaviour has been
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,390

    The SNP wants 16-year-olds to be able to change gender. But its own sentencing quango says brains don’t fully mature until the age of 25. How can these both be coherent policies?

    https://twitter.com/GrahamGGrant/status/1620029292284612610

    Usually I am against Twitter 'zinger' comparisons, but that one is a headscratcher.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,955
    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Though his offence was his failure to disclose his dispute with HMRC, rather than the dispute itself.
    All the enquiry did was reveal he had failed to disclose it on several more occasions.

    I don't see he has any defence to that either before or after the enquiry.

    Exactly it's the failure to disclose the dispute and penalty, which is relatively simple, that has brought him down. Not the dispute itself which is almost certainly too complicated for anyone who is not a tax expert.
    The dispute isn't that complex

    Zahawi received a large amount of money that rested in an offshore account.

    He hoped that because the money was resting offshore if he let it rest there long enough he wouldn't have to pay tsx on it if / when he brought the money back to the UK.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,390

    His popularity is sinking amongst the same public that thought Boris Johnson was a good idea and that Liz Truss would be a suitable replacement.

    Let it sink Rishi. Just do the job as well as you can. The Election will be lost whatever you do. There's nothing to be gained from appealing to the constituency which picked the previous two PMs.

    I think Tories would do well to read this post and consider why Sunak is such a darling of Labour supporters. 'Let it sink Rishi' - just stay in power being shit, and let us come in with a huge majority next election. The man is electoral and political poison.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,500
    TOPPING said:

    Yet again Martha Kearney got to the nub of the issue on Today this morning.

    Why has Zahawi not had the whip removed. Sunak is saying that a liar is not allowed to be in cabinet but it is perfectly acceptable to have one as a Cons MP.

    Sound about right to me.
    Otherwise goodbye to the Tory majority in the House, if all are held to that standard...
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,135
    edited January 2023


    Anyone who had to deal with a problem like Zahawi knows that it is difficult because of allegation & counter-allegation.

    I personally favour all allegations against politicians being investigated quickly, then a report (& evidence) being made public and swift action taken.

    So, Sunak does seem to me to have handled this OK. Just as the Labour Party did OK over the allegations regarding Chris Matheson, ex MP for Chester. They did not suspend him until after an independent report that confirmed that the sexual harassment allegations were true.

    If you sack people just because there is an allegation, then you end up with instances like Conor Burns. He was cleared of all wrongdoing after a sexual harassment story was leaked to the public, but by then he had been sacked. The alleged victim hadn’t made a complaint & AIUI there was no evidence of misconduct.

    Now in Zahawi's case, tax law is complex and his affairs were (probably) in the hands of a tax advisor. So, whether he was personally culpable did need a bit of time to investigate.

    Indeed, but Sunak has a culpability over reinstating the sacked by Truss, Braverman.

    To be fair to Sunak, perhaps the biggest conflict of interest surrounding Zahawi was Johnson installing him as CoE whilst Zahawi was under investigation by HMRC. That is an unbelievable dereliction of duty from both Johnson and Zahawi. And the biggest issue for the Conservatives SHOULD be Johnson's alleged conflict of interest patronages in relation the his loan guarantees both with regard to the potential for gifted roles at the BBC and the Commonwealth Office. All these ordure lined roads lead back to Johnson.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,078
    eek said:

    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Though his offence was his failure to disclose his dispute with HMRC, rather than the dispute itself.
    All the enquiry did was reveal he had failed to disclose it on several more occasions.

    I don't see he has any defence to that either before or after the enquiry.

    Exactly it's the failure to disclose the dispute and penalty, which is relatively simple, that has brought him down. Not the dispute itself which is almost certainly too complicated for anyone who is not a tax expert.
    The dispute isn't that complex

    Zahawi received a large amount of money that rested in an offshore account.

    He hoped that because the money was resting offshore if he let it rest there long enough he wouldn't have to pay tsx on it if / when he brought the money back to the UK.
    I honestly can’t get my head around the sheer scale of whopperdom on display here
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    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited January 2023

    "The quiet, unexpected vindication of the Euro", according to Greece's main centre-right newspaper.

    https://www.ekathimerini.com/opinion/1203435/the-quiet-unexpected-vindication-of-the-euro/

    Just to add on this, the points it makes about the Euro proving its worth for smaller and medium-sized economies during the Ukrainian crisis are interesting. I don't think it would particularly work for Britain, but it seems another example of Brexit being out of step with the prevailing trends in Europe, rather than the great harbinger the Eurosceptics were hoping for.
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    Interesting pre-print paper which explores possible reasons for the unexpectedly high number of transgender people in Newham & Brent:

    https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/yw45p/

    Mistakes in filling in the form owing to mistranslation and misunderstanding? The authors might be right but it's a bit of a reach. Is there evidence of similar anomalies around other questions in those boroughs, for instance? And why not other places with large immigrant communities?

    Is there perhaps widespread under-reporting, with the head of household being less likely to report trans offspring, whereas single people completing their own forms can be more open?
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,135
    Jonathan said:

    If you were a Tory MP, would you prefer to stick with Sunak or twist with Boris?

    That's a difficult one. Johnson brings on board BJO "socialists", but does he not so repulse genteel Southern England? So that is six of one, half a dozen of the other. I was hearing on LBC that there is a groundswell of swivel-eyed support for Mogg. Can that be true?
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    The SNP wants 16-year-olds to be able to change gender. But its own sentencing quango says brains don’t fully mature until the age of 25. How can these both be coherent policies?

    https://twitter.com/GrahamGGrant/status/1620029292284612610

    Good point but there are any number of age-based anomalies. Should we bar under-25s from marriage? Seize their children into the loving arms of local authority care? Sling them out of the army and rescind their driving licences?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,135
    eek said:

    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Though his offence was his failure to disclose his dispute with HMRC, rather than the dispute itself.
    All the enquiry did was reveal he had failed to disclose it on several more occasions.

    I don't see he has any defence to that either before or after the enquiry.

    Exactly it's the failure to disclose the dispute and penalty, which is relatively simple, that has brought him down. Not the dispute itself which is almost certainly too complicated for anyone who is not a tax expert.
    The dispute isn't that complex

    Zahawi received a large amount of money that rested in an offshore account.

    He hoped that because the money was resting offshore if he let it rest there long enough he wouldn't have to pay tsx on it if / when he brought the money back to the UK.
    We are in the realms of Father Ted aren't we?
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,119

    Interesting pre-print paper which explores possible reasons for the unexpectedly high number of transgender people in Newham & Brent:

    https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/yw45p/

    Mistakes in filling in the form owing to mistranslation and misunderstanding? The authors might be right but it's a bit of a reach. Is there evidence of similar anomalies around other questions in those boroughs, for instance? And why not other places with large immigrant communities?
    As you'll have seen, the authors asked the same question (p. 7):
    "My conjecture about the anomalies in returns is readily tested. The ONS just needs to cross-tabulate gender identity with language or with country of birth ..."
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    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,137

    Jonathan said:

    If you were a Tory MP, would you prefer to stick with Sunak or twist with Boris?

    That's a difficult one. Johnson brings on board BJO "socialists", but does he not so repulse genteel Southern England? So that is six of one, half a dozen of the other. I was hearing on LBC that there is a groundswell of swivel-eyed support for Mogg. Can that be true?
    I thought Mogg's wizard wheeze was to become King of the Rump when they lose the election. He's probably right that it is better to be Opposition Leader than have actual responsibility for the mess he's been instrumental in creating.
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    Sandpit said:

    Have we actually had the independent report into Zahawi published?

    It looks from the outside, as if Sunak has chosen an arbitrary date to sack the minister, having waited so long that the damage to his own reputation has been done, while not actually waiting for the report that he himself commissioned? Worst of all worlds for the PM.

    He received the report on the 29th January and acted on it
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    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,426

    The SNP wants 16-year-olds to be able to change gender. But its own sentencing quango says brains don’t fully mature until the age of 25. How can these both be coherent policies?

    https://twitter.com/GrahamGGrant/status/1620029292284612610

    Good point but there are any number of age-based anomalies. Should we bar under-25s from marriage? Seize their children into the loving arms of local authority care? Sling them out of the army and rescind their driving licences?
    If we're talking about legal gender then there's also the point that the Scot Gov bill would make it much easier to change back (I think - I assume changing back is also a long process at present) if the developing brain changes it's mind again. The immaturity art 16 is much more an issue for medical interventions, particularly when not reversible. Even there, of course, both deciding to medically transition or deciding not to medically transition have potentially life-long consequences.
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    Why is Braverman still in the cabinet?
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    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,426
    edited January 2023

    Interesting pre-print paper which explores possible reasons for the unexpectedly high number of transgender people in Newham & Brent:

    https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/yw45p/

    Mistakes in filling in the form owing to mistranslation and misunderstanding? The authors might be right but it's a bit of a reach. Is there evidence of similar anomalies around other questions in those boroughs, for instance? And why not other places with large immigrant communities?

    Is there perhaps widespread under-reporting, with the head of household being less likely to report trans offspring, whereas single people completing their own forms can be more open?
    I'd also like to see more exploration of this. The tone, which should not be important, but soes make me wonder, comes across as the author having a particular viewpoint, rather than just being interested in the anomaly. May be this is the explanation for the apparent anomaly or it may be that it's not.

    I understand that the disquiet over the sex question may also have caused some to boycott the gender question too. It's not implausible that such a boycott would gain more traction in an area like Brighton with a larger (or at least more visible) transgender community throug word of mouth etc than in some other places. Non-response would be a key thing to consider too, I think - which may be in the pre-print, I did not read it fully.

    Not quite my field, but if I was reviewing it I'd be asking for fair bit more analysis to pin this down before publication, but would be recommending publication once that was satisfied. It's interesting and potentially a very important issue - if there is confusion here, there might also be confusion on other things.
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    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited January 2023
    Why is Braverman still in the cabinet, Horse asks ?

    Because Sunak hasn't been able to do his Clark Kent act, and rip off his jacket.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,326

    BBC impartiality at risk because journalists 'lack understanding of basic economics'

    They said: “We think too many journalists lack understanding of basic economics or lack confidence in reporting it. This brings a high risk to impartiality.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/30/bbc-impartiality-risk-journalists-lack-understanding-basic-economics/

    No shit sherlock....as we saw during COVID, analysis of numbers, too confusing....

    Not to mention perspective, in pictures
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549

    eek said:

    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Though his offence was his failure to disclose his dispute with HMRC, rather than the dispute itself.
    All the enquiry did was reveal he had failed to disclose it on several more occasions.

    I don't see he has any defence to that either before or after the enquiry.

    Exactly it's the failure to disclose the dispute and penalty, which is relatively simple, that has brought him down. Not the dispute itself which is almost certainly too complicated for anyone who is not a tax expert.
    The dispute isn't that complex

    Zahawi received a large amount of money that rested in an offshore account.

    He hoped that because the money was resting offshore if he let it rest there long enough he wouldn't have to pay tsx on it if / when he brought the money back to the UK.
    I honestly can’t get my head around the sheer scale of whopperdom on display here
    I think eek is over simplifying the situation. The dispute is not that shares were hold in an offshore trust and that could be used to reduce his tax liability, but rather who was the beneficiary of the trust (Zahawi or his father), and whether or not the initial allocation of the share holding was proper in the first place.

    HMRC have some evidence that Zahawi had a loan covered by the trust, so that demonstrates he was a beneificiary, which he claimed was not the case.

    Regarding the allocation of shares Zahawi's father received considerably more shares for his initial investment than other share holders did. HMRC doesn't believe that the allocation was proper.

    I'm not disputing he's done wrong, but I do not accept the idea that this is a simple case.
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    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,426

    eek said:

    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Though his offence was his failure to disclose his dispute with HMRC, rather than the dispute itself.
    All the enquiry did was reveal he had failed to disclose it on several more occasions.

    I don't see he has any defence to that either before or after the enquiry.

    Exactly it's the failure to disclose the dispute and penalty, which is relatively simple, that has brought him down. Not the dispute itself which is almost certainly too complicated for anyone who is not a tax expert.
    The dispute isn't that complex

    Zahawi received a large amount of money that rested in an offshore account.

    He hoped that because the money was resting offshore if he let it rest there long enough he wouldn't have to pay tsx on it if / when he brought the money back to the UK.
    We are in the realms of Father Ted aren't we?
    Father Ted was funny this government and scandal are not.
    Boris could be father Jack, I think. Still trying to work out Dougal (needs to be loveable as well as stupid) and Ted.
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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,166

    Why is Braverman still in the cabinet?

    The support of 32 MPs in the first round of voting in the summer 2022 leadership election.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/July–September_2022_Conservative_Party_leadership_election
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    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,426

    The SNP wants 16-year-olds to be able to change gender. But its own sentencing quango says brains don’t fully mature until the age of 25. How can these both be coherent policies?

    https://twitter.com/GrahamGGrant/status/1620029292284612610

    Good point but there are any number of age-based anomalies. Should we bar under-25s from marriage? Seize their children into the loving arms of local authority care? Sling them out of the army and rescind their driving licences?
    Removing their right to vote might save the Tories a seat or two...

    (I mean, I know they don't actually vote. But in theory...)
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    Why is Braverman still in the cabinet, Horse asks ?

    Because Sunak hasn't been able to do his Clark Kent act, and rip off his jacket.

    Has anyone done the Sunak needs to be a braver man to ditch Braverman gag yet?

    If not, bagsy.
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    BBC impartiality at risk because journalists 'lack understanding of basic economics'

    They said: “We think too many journalists lack understanding of basic economics or lack confidence in reporting it. This brings a high risk to impartiality.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/30/bbc-impartiality-risk-journalists-lack-understanding-basic-economics/

    No shit sherlock....as we saw during COVID, analysis of numbers, too confusing....

    TBF, other journalists are just as culpable. My concern about impartiality is how it is that anyone to do with the NHS, and in particular reps of the doctors union the BMA, are given such an easy ride. They are never challenged on their vested interests and/or the large salaries and benefits that they receive while other professionals in the health service are way way behind them. The defence with which the BBC approaches the BMA is like the way in which politicians were treated in the 1950s. There is almost no scrutiny of their motives, and pretty much the same with other parts of the public sector, such as the teaching unions.
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    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    TimS said:

    Sunak is securing his place in box 3 of the pantheon of PMs. It becomes ever harder for him to shift boxes as time goes on.

    Box 1: important PMs. Love them or hate them, these PMs marked a political turning point and defined an epoch. Lloyd George, Churchill, Atlee, Thatcher, Blair

    Box 2. Notable but second tier: MacMillan, Wilson, Heath, possibly Brown, Cameron

    Box 3: weak PMs/ victims of forces outside their control: Chamberlain, Eden, Callaghan, Major, May, Sunak

    Box 4 (new category) complete plonkers: Johnson

    Box 5: glitches in the matrix. Truss

    I think you are generous to Cameron & Brown..... but like the idea (mainly agree)
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    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981

    Why is Braverman still in the cabinet?

    Because she is no worse than any of the rest of them? They are just better at keeping their mouths shut.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,326

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    This is consistent across all polls now.

    Sunak is going down and is becoming Gordon Brown.

    Brown got a hung parliament in 2010
    If you offered Sunak 258 seats now, I think he'd be advised to accept before you changed your mind. It probably puts Labour on 290-300ish and just about makes the SNP irrelevant.
    The underlying assumption behind the Sunak premiership may be false. Tories hope that he will deliver competent management and save Tory seats in the longer term. I am not sure that's what's playing out. If his mission is to minimise Tory loses, going early might be the best plan.
    Many dozens of Tory MPs will lose their seats in an early general election. Another 12-18 months of receiving an MPs salary, and to create a new career plan, might be worth another couple of dozen lost seats. The incentives for individual MPs are not necessarily what we think they are.
    That's no doubt correct, and applies in Downing Street too. Being PM must be interesting (and lucrative), not to be discarded lightly so as to lose by a smaller margin.

    Is there an actual count somewhere of how many Tory MPs have decided not to stand again, vs. how many have announced they will stand? I recall that CCHQ asked them all to say by New Year, but I've not seen many more than a couple of dozen indicate one way or the other.
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    Chris said:

    Interesting pre-print paper which explores possible reasons for the unexpectedly high number of transgender people in Newham & Brent:

    https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/yw45p/

    Mistakes in filling in the form owing to mistranslation and misunderstanding? The authors might be right but it's a bit of a reach. Is there evidence of similar anomalies around other questions in those boroughs, for instance? And why not other places with large immigrant communities?
    As you'll have seen, the authors asked the same question (p. 7):
    "My conjecture about the anomalies in returns is readily tested. The ONS just needs to cross-tabulate gender identity with language or with country of birth ..."
    As I did see, that is a different question. What the authors should have asked is whether these putative language difficulties affected any other responses, and (separately) why other areas with large immigrant populations did not show the same anomalies. Both (and other) questions could be asked without needing the ONS to provide additional cross-tabs at the authors' demand.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,577

    TimS said:

    Sunak is securing his place in box 3 of the pantheon of PMs. It becomes ever harder for him to shift boxes as time goes on.

    Box 1: important PMs. Love them or hate them, these PMs marked a political turning point and defined an epoch. Lloyd George, Churchill, Atlee, Thatcher, Blair

    Box 2. Notable but second tier: MacMillan, Wilson, Heath, possibly Brown, Cameron

    Box 3: weak PMs/ victims of forces outside their control: Chamberlain, Eden, Callaghan, Major, May, Sunak

    Box 4 (new category) complete plonkers: Johnson

    Box 5: glitches in the matrix. Truss

    I think you are generous to Cameron & Brown..... but like the idea (mainly agree)
    I think they are both borderline 2/3.

    Forgot Douglas-Home. Probably another 3.
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    Why is Braverman still in the cabinet?

    The support of 32 MPs in the first round of voting in the summer 2022 leadership election.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/July–September_2022_Conservative_Party_leadership_election
    The fact Truss won that election proves comprehensively the Tory Party needs to go into opposition and go back to being sensible.

    It's like they looked at 5 years of Labour and said, yes please.

    They are legitimately more crazy than Labour now - and what is impressive is that they seemed to do it all within a year
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,806
    Sunak has brought back a degree of normality to the Tory party, which is not too say they are not still in an awful polling position, mired in sleaze and a discredited talent pool from which to choose.

    What is does say though is that the manner of any Sunak exit would likely be pretty normal, and not done in Truss time.

    This would entail a number of things including, Sunak resisting any pressure on him and declaring himself up for the fight; malcontents, perhaps Boris supporters, ramping that they have 20-30 letters in and will bring Sunak down "soon" for months on end; if they do get to 53/4 letters having to then persuade their fellow MPs that an uncertain leadership process, likely with more normal rules and multiple candidates and doubts over whether Boris will even stand, is a good idea.

    Even with a solid base of Boris supporters, at each stage there is a threshold, doubt, a reading of the wider room. All those protections that kept Boris in post for so long.

    And the underlying question of whether changing yet again will really, this time, advance the cause, "no" being a highly plausible answer, or simply shred further their remaining tiny tissue of credibility.

    If there is an air of resignation, it is not surprising.
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    Pro_Rata said:

    Sunak has brought back a degree of normality to the Tory party, which is not too say they are not still in an awful polling position, mired in sleaze and a discredited talent pool from which to choose.

    What is does say though is that the manner of any Sunak exit would likely be pretty normal, and not done in Truss time.

    This would entail a number of things including, Sunak resisting any pressure on him and declaring himself up for the fight; malcontents, perhaps Boris supporters, ramping that they have 20-30 letters in and will bring Sunak down "soon" for months on end; if they do get to 53/4 letters having to then persuade their fellow MPs that an uncertain leadership process, likely with more normal rules and multiple candidates and doubts over whether Boris will even stand, is a good idea.

    Even with a solid base of Boris supporters, at each stage there is a threshold, doubt, a reading of the wider room. All those protections that kept Boris in post for so long.

    And the underlying question of whether changing yet again will really, this time, advance the cause, "no" being a highly plausible answer, or simply shred further their remaining tiny tissue of credibility.

    If there is an air of resignation, it is not surprising.

    Hope you are keeping well mate
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    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,426
    Chris said:

    Interesting pre-print paper which explores possible reasons for the unexpectedly high number of transgender people in Newham & Brent:

    https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/yw45p/

    Mistakes in filling in the form owing to mistranslation and misunderstanding? The authors might be right but it's a bit of a reach. Is there evidence of similar anomalies around other questions in those boroughs, for instance? And why not other places with large immigrant communities?
    As you'll have seen, the authors asked the same question (p. 7):
    "My conjecture about the anomalies in returns is readily tested. The ONS just needs to cross-tabulate gender identity with language or with country of birth ..."
    Correlation != causation :wink:

    What if there is a group in Newham that offers, possibly with little publicity, support for transgender people seeking refugee status after fleeing a country in which they would be persecuted for that? It wouldn't take a big group to skew the numbers given the low baseline and such a thing would also correlate non-English language/birth with transgender identity.

    FWIW, I suspect the author may be on to something and don't think my explanation is particularly likely. But it is possible and social research in particular is littered with the corpses of papers that got excited about a correlation without considering the full picture.
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    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    mwadams said:

    Jonathan said:

    If you were a Tory MP, would you prefer to stick with Sunak or twist with Boris?

    That's a difficult one. Johnson brings on board BJO "socialists", but does he not so repulse genteel Southern England? So that is six of one, half a dozen of the other. I was hearing on LBC that there is a groundswell of swivel-eyed support for Mogg. Can that be true?
    I thought Mogg's wizard wheeze was to become King of the Rump when they lose the election. He's probably right that it is better to be Opposition Leader than have actual responsibility for the mess he's been instrumental in creating.
    I would love to see Mogg as the leader of all 10 remaining Tory MPs.... :D
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    His popularity is sinking amongst the same public that thought Boris Johnson was a good idea and that Liz Truss would be a suitable replacement.

    Let it sink Rishi. Just do the job as well as you can. The Election will be lost whatever you do. There's nothing to be gained from appealing to the constituency which picked the previous two PMs.

    I think Tories would do well to read this post and consider why Sunak is such a darling of Labour supporters. 'Let it sink Rishi' - just stay in power being shit, and let us come in with a huge majority next election. The man is electoral and political poison.
    Well if you say so, LG. Your Party, not mine.

    My relative liking for Sunak arises from my belief that he is honest, competent and responsible.

    I happen to think also that there is no reasonable alternative, but if you have someone else in mind, let us know.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    Dorset police in the news today. The Met must be breathing a sigh of relief.

    Yes, it’s another rapist with a warrant card.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/30/serving-dorset-police-officer-charged-rape/
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    Best thing you can say about Sunak is that he’s not Truss or Johnson or the rest of the freak show that is the modern freak show that is the Tory Party.

    All of these events that lead to the inevitable thrashing of the Tories at the next election were started when the braindead end of the Tory membership thought it a good idea to someone who was a walking moral vacuum as leader because he is "popular". Member such as @HYUFD who continue to make excuses for him because he won a majority persist in overlooking that even with his majority he was a walking disaster area for party and country

    I fear that the membership's collective stupidity will keep the Conservative Party out of office for years and we will be stuck with a Labour party that bloats the public sector and drives down our competitiveness year on year. I just hope they are not as bad as I fear they might be.
This discussion has been closed.