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The time’s come for LAB leader punters to move on from Burnham? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,219
edited February 2023 in General
The time’s come for LAB leader punters to move on from Burnham? – politicalbetting.com

One day someone will explain to me why Andy Burnham remains favourite for next Labour leader. There’s no sign of a vacancy, unlikely to be one in the medium term and if there is one suddenly he’s ineligible to stand. You can back him now on Betfair at 6.8 but should’t he be 50?

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Comments

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,807
    First like Starmer
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Second. The first loser.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,008
    edited January 2023
    Yes, I would now make Wes Streeting favourite to succeed Starmer not Burnham. The next Labour leader may then automatically become PM given on current polling the leadership change would take place when Labour are in government.

    Burnham's time was in 2015 but that has passed. He was second to Corbyn then but had Labour picked Burnham instead of Corbyn Labour might even have got most seats in the next general election ahead of May's Tories and formed a Labour led government, not merely a hung parliament as Corbyn did but with the Tories still in power
  • Burnham is utterly useless.

    People call Starmer unprincipled, there is not a single position Andy has not held.

    For privatisation
    Against privatisation
    For privatisation
    Against privatisation

    For Iraq
    Against Iraq
    For Iraq
    Against Iraq

    Against Corbyn
    For Corbyn
    Against Corbyn
    For Corbyn

    For Starmer
    Against Starmer
    Really against Starmer
    For Starmer

    The man is utterly pointless.
  • @Heathener welcome back, don't let those bastards get you down I enjoy your posts :)
  • HYUFD said:

    Yes, I would now make Wes Streeting favourite to succeed Starmer not Burnham. The next Labour leader may then automatically become PM given on current polling the leadership change would take place when Labour are in government.

    Burnham's time was in 2015 but that has passed. He was second to Corbyn then but had Labour picked Burnham instead of Corbyn Labour might even have got most seats in the next general election ahead of May's Tories and formed a Labour led government, not merely a hung parliament as Corbyn did but with the Tories still in power

    Is this you pretending to understand Labour leaders again?

    I'd put my money on Bridget Phillipson
  • https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1619983263233355777

    After 3yrs of thinking I’d developed worsening hay fever, I’ve finally solved the mystery: air pollution. I live in one of UK’s worst polluted areas - Kensington/Chelsea - and when air quality’s v bad, like last week, I feel rough. When it’s OK, like now, I’m fine. Anyone else?

    Piers has gone all woke
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,927
    Time value of money.

    Laying Burnham would be great value, except that the contest might not take place until the 2030s and inflation is 10%.

    I'd be surprised if there was much liquidity in this market, and so the odds reflect those of a previous time when inflation was lower and Starmer was expected to stand down after failing to win the next election - with the King in the North presumably taking up a Commons seat at that election.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,196
    edited January 2023

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?

    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,196
    OT - I think this is an artefact of people thinking that Mayors would work as gateways to higher political office. And the "Other chap will be better" thing.

    Yes, Johnson... but in general there has been little sign of new talent emerging through this route.

    My opinion is that Burnham didn't do especially well in national politics, but found his forte as Mayor.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,196

    Burnham is utterly useless.

    People call Starmer unprincipled, there is not a single position Andy has not held.

    For privatisation
    Against privatisation
    For privatisation
    Against privatisation

    For Iraq
    Against Iraq
    For Iraq
    Against Iraq

    Against Corbyn
    For Corbyn
    Against Corbyn
    For Corbyn

    For Starmer
    Against Starmer
    Really against Starmer
    For Starmer

    The man is utterly pointless.

    {Bill Clinton entered the chat, smiles approvingly, lights cigar}
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,547
    It seems Zahawi is blaming everyone but himself for his own predicament.

    What a petit morceau de merde he is.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,196
    Sean_F said:

    It seems Zahawi is blaming everyone but himself for his own predicament.

    What a petit morceau de merde he is.

    It's a very rare thing for a politician to put his hands up and say "fair cop".
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,196

    https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1619983263233355777

    After 3yrs of thinking I’d developed worsening hay fever, I’ve finally solved the mystery: air pollution. I live in one of UK’s worst polluted areas - Kensington/Chelsea - and when air quality’s v bad, like last week, I feel rough. When it’s OK, like now, I’m fine. Anyone else?

    Piers has gone all woke

    You mean the vast pile of scientific research on air pollution is actually.... right?

    I'm shocked etc....
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,897
    To win Labour need a few million generally Tory voters to mostly switch to Labour, and some switch to a no hoper and some stay at home.

    Burnham as leader would switch this generally Tory voter from Labour to LD. (Nothing would get me to vote Tory until they have sorted themselves out morally and ideologically, which clearly isn't soon).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,300
    Guardian article echoing @viewcode 's piece yesterday.

    Amid the smoke of war, power in Europe is shifting decisively to the east
    Jonathan Eyal (RUSI)
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/29/amid-the-smoke-of-war-power-in-europe-is-shifting-decisively-to-the-east
  • Well I’m never drinking Irn-Bru.


  • Sean_F said:

    It seems Zahawi is blaming everyone but himself for his own predicament.

    What a petit morceau de merde he is.

    It's a very rare thing for a politician to put his hands up and say "fair cop".
    Up to a point, but the grumpy entitlement shown by NZ does feel like a new distasteful development.

    Ministers serve at the PM's arbitrary pleasure. Rishi doesn't have to give a reason at all.

    (I wonder if the problem is the one that you risk in meritocracy, namely that the winners think that all their success is down to their brilliance, forgetting all the random bits of good fortune that also came their way.)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,300

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,807

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?

    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Maybe a Wind to Wheels calculation these days?

    (Though I do understand that there's a lot of upfront CO2 emissions from building the wind farm, battery, car etc.)
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,903

    Well I’m never drinking Irn-Bru.


    You're missing out. It is the very nectar of the gods. Also great for hangovers and for staying awake on a long drive to or from Scotland.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106
    @nicholascecil: Rishi Sunak’s popularity slumps amid storm over conduct of top Tories, cost-of-living crisis and wave of strikes,… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1619995724183404545
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,019

    Well I’m never drinking Irn-Bru.


    You're missing out. It is the very nectar of the gods. Also great for hangovers and for staying awake on a long drive to or from Scotland.
    When I was up there a couple of weeks ago I noticed in Nando's that they make a positive virtue of Irn-Bru only being available in Scotland...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,196
    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    Yes - but from the scientific point of view, and to answer questions such as OGH's - a calculation is invaluable. The results will necessarily be approximate - X grams/km with and error bar of Y - but will still be useful.

    Another reason to do such calculations is pin point the areas where big improvements in the fuel cycle are possible/required.
  • He has fallen behind Sir Keir Starmer, on 36 per cent for having PM qualities, and whose score on this question has been nudging up since last April.

    Mr Sunak has also seen his lead as the “most capable PM” evaporate, with the Labour leader now ahead.
  • https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1619983263233355777

    After 3yrs of thinking I’d developed worsening hay fever, I’ve finally solved the mystery: air pollution. I live in one of UK’s worst polluted areas - Kensington/Chelsea - and when air quality’s v bad, like last week, I feel rough. When it’s OK, like now, I’m fine. Anyone else?

    Piers has gone all woke

    You mean the vast pile of scientific research on air pollution is actually.... right?

    I'm shocked etc....
    Though the other thing is about comparisons. The improvements starting in the 50s to city air form visibly filthy to subtly dirty. Realising that there is still a way to go can feel like woke snowflakedom, until you spend time in properly clean air.

    Hence the current hoohah about the ULEZ in places like Romford. Some of it is genuine concern about costs (though often based on fearing the scheme will be more restrictive than it is), some is political mischief making. But there's also a genuine, incorrect impression that the air isn't that dirty round these parts. It's never actual smog, is it?
  • For Sir Keir, 37 per cent are satisfied, 40 per cent dissatisfied, a net score of -3, slightly up from -6.

    But a large chunk of the public still do not know what the two main party leaders stand for despite their numerous TV appearances, speeches and clashes at Prime Minister’s Questions.

    Forty-four per cent say they do not know what Sir Keir stands for, down five points from July, and 40 per cent say the same about Mr Sunak, unchanged from the summer.

    The poll also found:

    Labour remains a startling 25 points ahead of the Conservatives. The Tories are on 26 per cent (+3 points from December), Labour 51 per cent (+2), and the Liberal Democrats nine (-4).
  • Just two in ten adults believe the Government is competent, with 62 per cent disagreeing.
    Two thirds say it is time for a change of Government at the next General Election, expected in the autumn of 2024.

    Among 2019 Conservative voters, 40 per cent think it is time for change. But 53 per cent disagree, including 29 per cent who believe the Government has done a poor job but the next election is not the time for change.
  • Right now this is 1997
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,196

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?

    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Maybe a Wind to Wheels calculation these days?

    (Though I do understand that there's a lot of upfront CO2 emissions from building the wind farm, battery, car etc.)
    The name Well to Wheels encompasses production, so the CO2 emissions from wind farm construction etc would, indeed, be factored in.

    The idea is that by including everything from start to finish, a more honest calculation of CO2 g/km can be created.
  • Sean_F said:

    It seems Zahawi is blaming everyone but himself for his own predicament.

    What a petit morceau de merde he is.

    It's a very rare thing for a politician to put his hands up and say "fair cop".
    Up to a point, but the grumpy entitlement shown by NZ does feel like a new distasteful development.

    Ministers serve at the PM's arbitrary pleasure. Rishi doesn't have to give a reason at all.

    (I wonder if the problem is the one that you risk in meritocracy, namely that the winners think that all their success is down to their brilliance, forgetting all the random bits of good fortune that also came their way.)
    Yep, it's an extension of the mindset of the millionaire business people that now proliferate in politics. Miraculously all of them seem to have made it entirely through their own efforts and in spite of rather than because they live in a largely prosperous and peaceful developed state. Any setbacks are seen as an insult to their unique talents, and down to outside factors rather than mistakes they've made. Also another facet of Trumpism of course.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,338

    https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1619983263233355777

    After 3yrs of thinking I’d developed worsening hay fever, I’ve finally solved the mystery: air pollution. I live in one of UK’s worst polluted areas - Kensington/Chelsea - and when air quality’s v bad, like last week, I feel rough. When it’s OK, like now, I’m fine. Anyone else?

    Piers has gone all woke

    Snap!

    I have a range of exotic lung complaints. But I definitely feel worse when in London.

    In the Lakes on the other hand my lungs are fine and I don't get the chronic bronchitis and asthma that used to afflict me in the spring (I'm allergic to tree pollen).

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,196

    https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1619983263233355777

    After 3yrs of thinking I’d developed worsening hay fever, I’ve finally solved the mystery: air pollution. I live in one of UK’s worst polluted areas - Kensington/Chelsea - and when air quality’s v bad, like last week, I feel rough. When it’s OK, like now, I’m fine. Anyone else?

    Piers has gone all woke

    You mean the vast pile of scientific research on air pollution is actually.... right?

    I'm shocked etc....
    Though the other thing is about comparisons. The improvements starting in the 50s to city air form visibly filthy to subtly dirty. Realising that there is still a way to go can feel like woke snowflakedom, until you spend time in properly clean air.

    Hence the current hoohah about the ULEZ in places like Romford. Some of it is genuine concern about costs (though often based on fearing the scheme will be more restrictive than it is), some is political mischief making. But there's also a genuine, incorrect impression that the air isn't that dirty round these parts. It's never actual smog, is it?
    Dampen a finger. Run it along an external window ledge. What do you see?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,196

    Right now this is 1997

    1995
  • Right now this is 1997

    1995
    We all know what happened two years later.

    Right now the Tories are looking at a worse result than 1997. They really could be destroyed for many years.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,547

    Sean_F said:

    It seems Zahawi is blaming everyone but himself for his own predicament.

    What a petit morceau de merde he is.

    It's a very rare thing for a politician to put his hands up and say "fair cop".
    Anyone really, in a leading position, as @Cyclefree has often pointed out.

    Instead, there’s genuine indignation at being sacked for incompetence or corruption.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,512

    https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1619983263233355777

    After 3yrs of thinking I’d developed worsening hay fever, I’ve finally solved the mystery: air pollution. I live in one of UK’s worst polluted areas - Kensington/Chelsea - and when air quality’s v bad, like last week, I feel rough. When it’s OK, like now, I’m fine. Anyone else?

    Piers has gone all woke

    Mrs J has periods with significant lung issues. With hindsight, they started at about the same time she started a ~1 hr each way commute to work. She can go long periods with no problems, but worsens after a few days when she had bad trips in due to congestion, especially in summer.

    I'm convinced it's pollution that's causing the harm.

    Which is why, even if you don't believe in global warming / climate change, you should be in favour of getting cleaner air. Which many of the 'fixes' for AGW also give...
  • eekeek Posts: 28,592

    Well I’m never drinking Irn-Bru.


    You're missing out. It is the very nectar of the gods. Also great for hangovers and for staying awake on a long drive to or from Scotland.
    also worth pointing out the only country in the world (heck region in the world) where a carbonated soft drink outsells Coca-cola is Irn-bru in Scotland.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,196

    https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1619983263233355777

    After 3yrs of thinking I’d developed worsening hay fever, I’ve finally solved the mystery: air pollution. I live in one of UK’s worst polluted areas - Kensington/Chelsea - and when air quality’s v bad, like last week, I feel rough. When it’s OK, like now, I’m fine. Anyone else?

    Piers has gone all woke

    Mrs J has periods with significant lung issues. With hindsight, they started at about the same time she started a ~1 hr each way commute to work. She can go long periods with no problems, but worsens after a few days when she had bad trips in due to congestion, especially in summer.

    I'm convinced it's pollution that's causing the harm.

    Which is why, even if you don't believe in global warming / climate change, you should be in favour of getting cleaner air. Which many of the 'fixes' for AGW also give...
    They really need to do something about the air quality in parts of the London Underground. Despite be all electric for generations, the air is extremely bad.
  • Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
  • Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    It seems Zahawi is blaming everyone but himself for his own predicament.

    What a petit morceau de merde he is.

    It's a very rare thing for a politician to put his hands up and say "fair cop".
    Anyone really, in a leading position, as @Cyclefree has often pointed out.

    Instead, there’s genuine indignation at being sacked for incompetence or corruption.

    Isn't that true at all levels, and outside politics as well? The most junior employees sacked for incompetence are very likely to blame the employer not themselves.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,547

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    It seems Zahawi is blaming everyone but himself for his own predicament.

    What a petit morceau de merde he is.

    It's a very rare thing for a politician to put his hands up and say "fair cop".
    Anyone really, in a leading position, as @Cyclefree has often pointed out.

    Instead, there’s genuine indignation at being sacked for incompetence or corruption.

    Isn't that true at all levels, and outside politics as well? The most junior employees sacked for incompetence are very likely to blame the employer not themselves.
    I think it tends to be worst at the highest levels.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,196

    Sean_F said:

    It seems Zahawi is blaming everyone but himself for his own predicament.

    What a petit morceau de merde he is.

    It's a very rare thing for a politician to put his hands up and say "fair cop".
    Up to a point, but the grumpy entitlement shown by NZ does feel like a new distasteful development.

    Ministers serve at the PM's arbitrary pleasure. Rishi doesn't have to give a reason at all.

    (I wonder if the problem is the one that you risk in meritocracy, namely that the winners think that all their success is down to their brilliance, forgetting all the random bits of good fortune that also came their way.)
    Yep, it's an extension of the mindset of the millionaire business people that now proliferate in politics. Miraculously all of them seem to have made it entirely through their own efforts and in spite of rather than because they live in a largely prosperous and peaceful developed state. Any setbacks are seen as an insult to their unique talents, and down to outside factors rather than mistakes they've made. Also another facet of Trumpism of course.
    It was there long, long before Trump got anywhere near politics.

    And it isn't just "millionaires" or "business people". It's what I call the New Upper 10,000 - they believe that they are ruling class, by right. So whatever they do is Blessed. And any annoying little incidents where little people get broken are not their fault, because they Followed Best Practise. And Lessons Will Be Learned. In their new job, which pays more than the one they fucked up.

    The local council instituted cycle lanes - shut down bus lanes to do it. They have now been repeatedly digging up the roads to rework them for about 18 months or so. So, because the cyclists have now got nowhere to actually cycle, they are at greater risk from vehicles on the shrunken roads. Strangely, this has resulted in a number of accidents.

    The expert on cycle lanes, working for the Council, furrowed his brow at a meeting (online), in the style of Sir Ian Blair and declared it was all very hard for him. But its OK, because he is off to another council, out of London, to a bigger job....
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,903

    Sean_F said:

    It seems Zahawi is blaming everyone but himself for his own predicament.

    What a petit morceau de merde he is.

    It's a very rare thing for a politician to put his hands up and say "fair cop".
    Up to a point, but the grumpy entitlement shown by NZ does feel like a new distasteful development.

    Ministers serve at the PM's arbitrary pleasure. Rishi doesn't have to give a reason at all.

    (I wonder if the problem is the one that you risk in meritocracy, namely that the winners think that all their success is down to their brilliance, forgetting all the random bits of good fortune that also came their way.)
    Yep, it's an extension of the mindset of the millionaire business people that now proliferate in politics. Miraculously all of them seem to have made it entirely through their own efforts and in spite of rather than because they live in a largely prosperous and peaceful developed state. Any setbacks are seen as an insult to their unique talents, and down to outside factors rather than mistakes they've made. Also another facet of Trumpism of course.
    It was there long, long before Trump got anywhere near politics.

    And it isn't just "millionaires" or "business people". It's what I call the New Upper 10,000 - they believe that they are ruling class, by right. So whatever they do is Blessed. And any annoying little incidents where little people get broken are not their fault, because they Followed Best Practise. And Lessons Will Be Learned. In their new job, which pays more than the one they fucked up.

    The local council instituted cycle lanes - shut down bus lanes to do it. They have now been repeatedly digging up the roads to rework them for about 18 months or so. So, because the cyclists have now got nowhere to actually cycle, they are at greater risk from vehicles on the shrunken roads. Strangely, this has resulted in a number of accidents.

    The expert on cycle lanes, working for the Council, furrowed his brow at a meeting (online), in the style of Sir Ian Blair and declared it was all very hard for him. But its OK, because he is off to another council, out of London, to a bigger job....
    I'm not sure that the guy who plans cycle lanes for the local council really qualifies for the NU10k.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,338
    Sean_F said:

    It seems Zahawi is blaming everyone but himself for his own predicament.

    What a petit morceau de merde he is.

    He's going down the Owen Paterson route. It wouldn't surprise me if he got lawyers involved.

    Proper decent Tories - remember them? - must be utterly furious because it is now blindingly clear that people like Zahawi, Boris etc., care nothing for the party. They merely used it for their own advancement. Hence the sense of entitlement and snarling fury when thwarted. If these people had any care for the party they serve - let alone the voters - they would resign.

    I do wonder why Helen Whately agrees to do the early morning interviews. Every single time I hear or see her she looks as if she's about to burst into tears. Understandably given the rubbish she has to spout. Don't they have any self-respect?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,782

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    He's chatting shit. Teslas charge at about 800 miles range per hour on a Supercharger. Our new iX does 400mph on a normal charger.
  • Right now this is 1997

    1995
    Summer 1995, the Wikiworm poll average was C23 L53, so it's not quite as bad for the Conservatives as that yet. However, Major's "put up or shut up" election saw him gain about 5 points fairly quickly- mostly from the Lib Dems. That took the Conservatives up to about 28. Then there was a gentle drift up to 31 as Britain Boomed over the following two years.

    The Conservatives need something - probably several somethings- to avoid falling behind the Major trajectory.

    And whilst 165 seats was recoverable, there comes a point where the remnant is just too small to be viable. They can't fall that low... Can they?
  • Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    It seems Zahawi is blaming everyone but himself for his own predicament.

    What a petit morceau de merde he is.

    He's going down the Owen Paterson route. It wouldn't surprise me if he got lawyers involved.

    Proper decent Tories - remember them? - must be utterly furious because it is now blindingly clear that people like Zahawi, Boris etc., care nothing for the party. They merely used it for their own advancement. Hence the sense of entitlement and snarling fury when thwarted. If these people had any care for the party they serve - let alone the voters - they would resign.

    I do wonder why Helen Whately agrees to do the early morning interviews. Every single time I hear or see her she looks as if she's about to burst into tears. Understandably given the rubbish she has to spout. Don't they have any self-respect?
    Helen is the sort of MP that is worth a few points in the polls for Labour
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,927

    Right now this is 1997

    There are times when I think the next election, 2024, perhaps, will go down in history as a greater victory than 1997.

    In many respects the position of the Tories is a lot weaker - the period of Liz Truss as PM is without comparison in British political history. Even historically very poor leaders, deep in English and Scottish history, took a lot longer to bring matters to a point of crisis - Edward II, John (Plantagenet), Mary Queen of Scots.

    I suppose you could point to Lady Jane Grey's Nine Days as Queen, but in many respects that was part of the political leadership of the Duke of Northumberland, who had led the government for about three years - eons compared to Liz Truss.

    We should not be surprised when unprecedented political events lead to unprecedented electoral consequences, and that is what I expect for the next general election.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,479
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    He's chatting shit. Teslas charge at about 800 miles range per hour on a Supercharger. Our new iX does 400mph on a normal charger.
    400mph seems jolly fast.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    He's chatting shit. Teslas charge at about 800 miles range per hour on a Supercharger. Our new iX does 400mph on a normal charger.
    OK. He was just relating this though not complaining about it so no obvious reason to misstate the facts. He may not have said Tesla, mind, and this was the hobbit ecoservices on the m5 where they probably generate electric by fermentation of the output of the earth closets.
  • Rishi Sunak really has made a spectacular mess of handling the Zahawi issue. It's been completely obvious for weeks that this was going to end with Zahawi either resigning or being sacked. If Sunak had acted promptly and decisively, he could have got credit for carrying through on his promise to clean things up. Instead he's got the worst of all worlds. His inexperience is showing, I think.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,300

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    A relevant difference.
    That too is a moving target - and might move a bit faster if government ever get their act together.

    For now its getting worse, as the uptake of EVs has outpaced that building of charging facilities, but that will change.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,927

    https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1619983263233355777

    After 3yrs of thinking I’d developed worsening hay fever, I’ve finally solved the mystery: air pollution. I live in one of UK’s worst polluted areas - Kensington/Chelsea - and when air quality’s v bad, like last week, I feel rough. When it’s OK, like now, I’m fine. Anyone else?

    Piers has gone all woke

    Mrs J has periods with significant lung issues. With hindsight, they started at about the same time she started a ~1 hr each way commute to work. She can go long periods with no problems, but worsens after a few days when she had bad trips in due to congestion, especially in summer.

    I'm convinced it's pollution that's causing the harm.

    Which is why, even if you don't believe in global warming / climate change, you should be in favour of getting cleaner air. Which many of the 'fixes' for AGW also give...
    They do, but it also suggests that some modest grants to material scientists to look into different materials for tyres and brake pads would be helpful. Even with all transport switched to renewable electricity there will still be significant urban particulate pollution from tyre wear, and presumably brake pads to an extent.

    There are plenty of other environmental problems for new technology to fix.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106

    Rishi Sunak really has made a spectacular mess of handling the Zahawi issue. It's been completely obvious for weeks that this was going to end with Zahawi either resigning or being sacked. If Sunak had acted promptly and decisively, he could have got credit for carrying through on his promise to clean things up. Instead he's got the worst of all worlds. His inexperience is showing, I think.

    Zahawi should never have been in his cabinet
  • PJHPJH Posts: 696

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    This sums up where I am. Forced to get a new car this year by the ULEZ, I find there is currently no vehicle on the market that meets my needs. I buy new and run it until it falls apart 12-15 years later (so already fuming at having to dump my perfectly good 9 year old Mondeo).

    I want something Focus sized that is good for at least 12 years so it has to be an EV. Needs a minimum range of 300 miles (nothing is there yet) and needs to fit down my driveway (nearly all models are too wide and also most of them are just too big for my taste). I'm also unconvinced the battery life is good enough yet either. So I'm inclined to sit it out for a couple of years.

    I don't really like the idea of buying a second hand car. But I'm increasingly coming to the view that I will have to so maybe this is the time in my life when I could indulge in either an old MG or Land Rover and just hire a proper car whenever I need to do long trips. No road tax, no ULEZ and no depreciation in the meantime.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,019
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    He's chatting shit. Teslas charge at about 800 miles range per hour on a Supercharger. Our new iX does 400mph on a normal charger.
    And, as noted, ICE cars do 400 miles in a handful of minutes...
  • Rishi Sunak really has made a spectacular mess of handling the Zahawi issue. It's been completely obvious for weeks that this was going to end with Zahawi either resigning or being sacked. If Sunak had acted promptly and decisively, he could have got credit for carrying through on his promise to clean things up. Instead he's got the worst of all worlds. His inexperience is showing, I think.

    Strong disagree, the eventual outcome has indeed been obvious but he has gone through the hoops which have to be gone through to prevent a narrative of He's weak, the press have claimed a scalp. Think of the hay Zahawi would have made with the Noose headline in the absence of an official report.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106
    @nicholaswatt: RT @vicderbyshire: On @BBCNewsnight tonight - how’s Brexit going?

    At midnight it’ll be 3 years since UK formally left EU

    We’ll be li… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1619998850080722950
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,300

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    It seems Zahawi is blaming everyone but himself for his own predicament.

    What a petit morceau de merde he is.

    It's a very rare thing for a politician to put his hands up and say "fair cop".
    Anyone really, in a leading position, as @Cyclefree has often pointed out.

    Instead, there’s genuine indignation at being sacked for incompetence or corruption.

    Isn't that true at all levels, and outside politics as well? The most junior employees sacked for incompetence are very likely to blame the employer not themselves.
    Not entirely, no.
    And even when they do, occasionally they are right, since it's the employer's responsibility to ensure adequate training.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,479

    Rishi Sunak really has made a spectacular mess of handling the Zahawi issue. It's been completely obvious for weeks that this was going to end with Zahawi either resigning or being sacked. If Sunak had acted promptly and decisively, he could have got credit for carrying through on his promise to clean things up. Instead he's got the worst of all worlds. His inexperience is showing, I think.

    Agree, though I think it's even worse than you say. Serious questions have been raised about Zahawi's tax affairs for months, even years. For Sunak to say that he has only become aware of this over the last 10 days is pretty implausible. Doesn't he read the papers? Or did he just not bother to find out?
  • Driver said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    He's chatting shit. Teslas charge at about 800 miles range per hour on a Supercharger. Our new iX does 400mph on a normal charger.
    And, as noted, ICE cars do 400 miles in a handful of minutes...
    Username checks out.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,019
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    A relevant difference.
    That too is a moving target - and might move a bit faster if government ever get their act together.

    For now its getting worse, as the uptake of EVs has outpaced that building of charging facilities, but that will change.
    Unless the government pays the company that manages my building to put EV charging points in our car park then I'm never going to be able to charge an EV car at home. Which (as I WFH mostly) means I'm going to have to take it somewhere to charge it. Which immediately runs into the "much slower than filling a diesel tank" problem.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,300
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    He's chatting shit. Teslas charge at about 800 miles range per hour on a Supercharger. Our new iX does 400mph on a normal charger.
    The general point is correct, though.
    The availability of public charging has significantly lagged the take-up of EVs.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106

    Rishi Sunak really has made a spectacular mess of handling the Zahawi issue. It's been completely obvious for weeks that this was going to end with Zahawi either resigning or being sacked. If Sunak had acted promptly and decisively, he could have got credit for carrying through on his promise to clean things up. Instead he's got the worst of all worlds. His inexperience is showing, I think.

    Strong disagree, the eventual outcome has indeed been obvious but he has gone through the hoops which have to be gone through to prevent a narrative of He's weak, the press have claimed a scalp. Think of the hay Zahawi would have made with the Noose headline in the absence of an official report.
    Ministers serve at the pleasure of the PM. Sunak should never have appointed him, and should have sacked him weeks ago.

    Zahawi can whine all he likes
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,782

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    He's chatting shit. Teslas charge at about 800 miles range per hour on a Supercharger. Our new iX does 400mph on a normal charger.
    400mph seems jolly fast.
    Talking of which..

    I finally got the Firebird to run yesterday. With its new 383 stroker/T56 6 speed and a 3.9 Positrac rear end the computer came up with these numbers.



    Its 'only' got 450hp so I don't think it will pull to the 6,000rpm redline in 6th as it has the aerodynamics of a phone box. It also generates negative downforce at over 45mph so brave pills required at triple digits.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,300

    Rishi Sunak really has made a spectacular mess of handling the Zahawi issue. It's been completely obvious for weeks that this was going to end with Zahawi either resigning or being sacked. If Sunak had acted promptly and decisively, he could have got credit for carrying through on his promise to clean things up. Instead he's got the worst of all worlds. His inexperience is showing, I think.

    Such a learning experience might be fine in the first year of a five year term. Way too late now.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,019
    Scott_xP said:

    Rishi Sunak really has made a spectacular mess of handling the Zahawi issue. It's been completely obvious for weeks that this was going to end with Zahawi either resigning or being sacked. If Sunak had acted promptly and decisively, he could have got credit for carrying through on his promise to clean things up. Instead he's got the worst of all worlds. His inexperience is showing, I think.

    Strong disagree, the eventual outcome has indeed been obvious but he has gone through the hoops which have to be gone through to prevent a narrative of He's weak, the press have claimed a scalp. Think of the hay Zahawi would have made with the Noose headline in the absence of an official report.
    Ministers serve at the pleasure of the PM. Sunak should never have appointed him, and should have sacked him weeks ago.

    Zahawi can whine all he likes
    Don't worry, he's nowhere near challenging you.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,903
    PJH said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    This sums up where I am. Forced to get a new car this year by the ULEZ, I find there is currently no vehicle on the market that meets my needs. I buy new and run it until it falls apart 12-15 years later (so already fuming at having to dump my perfectly good 9 year old Mondeo).

    I want something Focus sized that is good for at least 12 years so it has to be an EV. Needs a minimum range of 300 miles (nothing is there yet) and needs to fit down my driveway (nearly all models are too wide and also most of them are just too big for my taste). I'm also unconvinced the battery life is good enough yet either. So I'm inclined to sit it out for a couple of years.

    I don't really like the idea of buying a second hand car. But I'm increasingly coming to the view that I will have to so maybe this is the time in my life when I could indulge in either an old MG or Land Rover and just hire a proper car whenever I need to do long trips. No road tax, no ULEZ and no depreciation in the meantime.
    If you buy new and run it into the ground 12 years later wouldn't it make more sense to buy a two year old car at a huge discount vs new and run it into the ground 10 years later instead? You obviously have no qualms about driving an old car so why pay through the nose to have a new one for a couple of years? Are you getting some kind of tax break for the new car?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,300
    .
    Driver said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    A relevant difference.
    That too is a moving target - and might move a bit faster if government ever get their act together.

    For now its getting worse, as the uptake of EVs has outpaced that building of charging facilities, but that will change.
    Unless the government pays the company that manages my building to put EV charging points in our car park...
    I expect they will make that a condition of development (they should) and introduce an obligation on landlords to fit them (they should).
    A short term scheme of significantly enhanced capital allowances would be a sensible idea, as the lack of public charging is likely to be a growing problem.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Good session from Rishi in front of NHS types

    Why does it say stop the boats above his head

    EDL infiltrators
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,689
    Driver said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    He's chatting shit. Teslas charge at about 800 miles range per hour on a Supercharger. Our new iX does 400mph on a normal charger.
    And, as noted, ICE cars do 400 miles in a handful of minutes...
    You'd know about cars, Driver, I'm thinking?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,300
    Driver said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    He's chatting shit. Teslas charge at about 800 miles range per hour on a Supercharger. Our new iX does 400mph on a normal charger.
    And, as noted, ICE cars do 400 miles in a handful of minutes...
    Also note the average daily mileage in the UK is about 20 miles.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,927
    edited January 2023
    Driver said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    A relevant difference.
    That too is a moving target - and might move a bit faster if government ever get their act together.

    For now its getting worse, as the uptake of EVs has outpaced that building of charging facilities, but that will change.
    Unless the government pays the company that manages my building to put EV charging points in our car park then I'm never going to be able to charge an EV car at home. Which (as I WFH mostly) means I'm going to have to take it somewhere to charge it. Which immediately runs into the "much slower than filling a diesel tank" problem.
    The company that manages your building may decide to do that themselves, as you become a nearly captive market for buying electricity from them to charge your car.

    I think also that the model of fuel stations being specific places you drive to in order to fuel a vehicle will not survive. Eventually most dedicated parking places will have charge points because electricity is easier to handle than petrol/diesel. So every time you park your car will be an opportunity to charge it.

    The transition will be a bit messy, but these are solvable problems.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,196
    edited January 2023

    Sean_F said:

    It seems Zahawi is blaming everyone but himself for his own predicament.

    What a petit morceau de merde he is.

    It's a very rare thing for a politician to put his hands up and say "fair cop".
    Up to a point, but the grumpy entitlement shown by NZ does feel like a new distasteful development.

    Ministers serve at the PM's arbitrary pleasure. Rishi doesn't have to give a reason at all.

    (I wonder if the problem is the one that you risk in meritocracy, namely that the winners think that all their success is down to their brilliance, forgetting all the random bits of good fortune that also came their way.)
    Yep, it's an extension of the mindset of the millionaire business people that now proliferate in politics. Miraculously all of them seem to have made it entirely through their own efforts and in spite of rather than because they live in a largely prosperous and peaceful developed state. Any setbacks are seen as an insult to their unique talents, and down to outside factors rather than mistakes they've made. Also another facet of Trumpism of course.
    It was there long, long before Trump got anywhere near politics.

    And it isn't just "millionaires" or "business people". It's what I call the New Upper 10,000 - they believe that they are ruling class, by right. So whatever they do is Blessed. And any annoying little incidents where little people get broken are not their fault, because they Followed Best Practise. And Lessons Will Be Learned. In their new job, which pays more than the one they fucked up.

    The local council instituted cycle lanes - shut down bus lanes to do it. They have now been repeatedly digging up the roads to rework them for about 18 months or so. So, because the cyclists have now got nowhere to actually cycle, they are at greater risk from vehicles on the shrunken roads. Strangely, this has resulted in a number of accidents.

    The expert on cycle lanes, working for the Council, furrowed his brow at a meeting (online), in the style of Sir Ian Blair and declared it was all very hard for him. But its OK, because he is off to another council, out of London, to a bigger job....
    I'm not sure that the guy who plans cycle lanes for the local council really qualifies for the NU10k.
    Apparently, he is on more than Cressida Dick. Consultancy, of course....

    So he has the money, and apparently the immunity from reality.
  • PJHPJH Posts: 696

    PJH said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    This sums up where I am. Forced to get a new car this year by the ULEZ, I find there is currently no vehicle on the market that meets my needs. I buy new and run it until it falls apart 12-15 years later (so already fuming at having to dump my perfectly good 9 year old Mondeo).

    I want something Focus sized that is good for at least 12 years so it has to be an EV. Needs a minimum range of 300 miles (nothing is there yet) and needs to fit down my driveway (nearly all models are too wide and also most of them are just too big for my taste). I'm also unconvinced the battery life is good enough yet either. So I'm inclined to sit it out for a couple of years.

    I don't really like the idea of buying a second hand car. But I'm increasingly coming to the view that I will have to so maybe this is the time in my life when I could indulge in either an old MG or Land Rover and just hire a proper car whenever I need to do long trips. No road tax, no ULEZ and no depreciation in the meantime.
    If you buy new and run it into the ground 12 years later wouldn't it make more sense to buy a two year old car at a huge discount vs new and run it into the ground 10 years later instead? You obviously have no qualms about driving an old car so why pay through the nose to have a new one for a couple of years? Are you getting some kind of tax break for the new car?
    Yes could do that, but I think a 2-year old car has the same issues as a new one, it needs to be an EV. Maybe an older hybrid might work for me. I haven't made up my mind yet by any means. I don't use a car much, a (decreasing) element of Dad's taxi service, odd days out at weekends and long distance weeks or weekends away. I could probably live without altogether to be honest.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    If only we had stopped the boats we could have collapsed the NHS sooner.

    Never mind Tories and SKS and Reeves are on it
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,338

    Rishi Sunak really has made a spectacular mess of handling the Zahawi issue. It's been completely obvious for weeks that this was going to end with Zahawi either resigning or being sacked. If Sunak had acted promptly and decisively, he could have got credit for carrying through on his promise to clean things up. Instead he's got the worst of all worlds. His inexperience is showing, I think.

    Quite a lot of people on this forum said what he needed to do and they (probably) have even less experience than him as a politician. His failing is not just inexperience I think.

    It's worse. He does not really understand in his bones why high ethical standards and being seen to try and achieve them (even if you might fail from time to time) matter. If he had he'd never have appointed Zahawi or Braverman etc or sacked the former the minute he became aware of the tax issue.

    What the Tories need are (a) a moral compass and (b) a problem detector. They have neither so we will just have to enjoy watching them crash around the place blundering from scandal to scandal until the next GE.
  • PJHPJH Posts: 696
    Dura_Ace said:
    Haha yes indeed if I do that!
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,640
    edited January 2023
    Dura_Ace said:
    Hey Dura, I asked you a few months ago about whether I’m mad or not to be considering an L322 as a glorified dog car.

    Haven’t bought anything yet - still got a few months left on my current lease car - but the more YouTube I watch of L322 owners doing 12 month running and maintenance costs the colder my feet get.

    What’s your view on a 10ish year old XC90? More reliable?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,196
    edited January 2023

    Driver said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    A relevant difference.
    That too is a moving target - and might move a bit faster if government ever get their act together.

    For now its getting worse, as the uptake of EVs has outpaced that building of charging facilities, but that will change.
    Unless the government pays the company that manages my building to put EV charging points in our car park then I'm never going to be able to charge an EV car at home. Which (as I WFH mostly) means I'm going to have to take it somewhere to charge it. Which immediately runs into the "much slower than filling a diesel tank" problem.
    The company that manages your building may decide to do that themselves, as you become a nearly captive market for buying electricity from them to charge your car.

    I think also that the model of fuel stations being specific places you drive to in order to fuel a vehicle will not survive. Eventually most dedicated parking places will have charge points because electricity is easier to handle than petrol/diesel. So every time you park your car will be an opportunity to charge it.

    The transition will be a bit messy, but these are solvable problems.
    Helped by some strange features of the UK.

    Like most lamp posts being wired for 20-32A. WTF did they plan on running from each lamp post? An oven?

    Very handy though for EV charging points, since LED lights on the lamppost itself reduce the requirement for power to zilch.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,983
    I would still be interested to hear why the ministerial code which Sunak followed in getting rid of Zahawi was able to be circumvented when it came to Suella Braverman?
  • PJH said:

    PJH said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    This sums up where I am. Forced to get a new car this year by the ULEZ, I find there is currently no vehicle on the market that meets my needs. I buy new and run it until it falls apart 12-15 years later (so already fuming at having to dump my perfectly good 9 year old Mondeo).

    I want something Focus sized that is good for at least 12 years so it has to be an EV. Needs a minimum range of 300 miles (nothing is there yet) and needs to fit down my driveway (nearly all models are too wide and also most of them are just too big for my taste). I'm also unconvinced the battery life is good enough yet either. So I'm inclined to sit it out for a couple of years.

    I don't really like the idea of buying a second hand car. But I'm increasingly coming to the view that I will have to so maybe this is the time in my life when I could indulge in either an old MG or Land Rover and just hire a proper car whenever I need to do long trips. No road tax, no ULEZ and no depreciation in the meantime.
    If you buy new and run it into the ground 12 years later wouldn't it make more sense to buy a two year old car at a huge discount vs new and run it into the ground 10 years later instead? You obviously have no qualms about driving an old car so why pay through the nose to have a new one for a couple of years? Are you getting some kind of tax break for the new car?
    Yes could do that, but I think a 2-year old car has the same issues as a new one, it needs to be an EV. Maybe an older hybrid might work for me. I haven't made up my mind yet by any means. I don't use a car much, a (decreasing) element of Dad's taxi service, odd days out at weekends and long distance weeks or weekends away. I could probably live without altogether to be honest.
    You might want to check that, unless you're thinking of the situation ten years down the road.

    Most petrol vehicles under 16 years old or diesel vehicles under 6 years old already meet the emissions standards.

    https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/ways-to-meet-the-standard
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,300
    Over 76% of South Koreans support development of nuclear weapons
    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2023/01/205_344519.html
    ... 60.7 percent of the respondents said they believe their country is somewhat in need of developing its own nuclear weapons, while 15.9 percent said it is very much in need.

    Only 3.1 percent said the country is in no need of such weapons, while 20.3 percent said the need is low.

    The level of approval measured for nuclear weapons is higher than the numbers shown in other studies in recent years, including a survey by the Chicago Council on Global Affairs (71 percent) and another one by the Asan Institute for Policy Studies (70.2 percent).

    The latest research by Gallup Korea conducted between Nov. 28 and Dec. 26, based on one-on-one interviews with 1,000 people, shows that there is widespread skepticism over the possibility of denuclearizing the Korean Peninsula.

    While 56.4 percent of respondents said they think the denuclearization of North Korea is impossible, 21.2 percent said it is nearly impossible. Only 1.9 percent said it is very likely...
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,019
    Nigelb said:

    Driver said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    He's chatting shit. Teslas charge at about 800 miles range per hour on a Supercharger. Our new iX does 400mph on a normal charger.
    And, as noted, ICE cars do 400 miles in a handful of minutes...
    Also note the average daily mileage in the UK is about 20 miles.
    Which disguises a whole lot. My annual mileage last year was about 7000 which is, indeed, about 20 miles per day. But about two thirds of that, I estimate, was on trips of 300 miles plus.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    On Topic

    SKS will not allow AB to become an MP

    LABs right has such a grip on Selections even centre left Candidates are not welcome
  • PJHPJH Posts: 696

    PJH said:

    PJH said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    This sums up where I am. Forced to get a new car this year by the ULEZ, I find there is currently no vehicle on the market that meets my needs. I buy new and run it until it falls apart 12-15 years later (so already fuming at having to dump my perfectly good 9 year old Mondeo).

    I want something Focus sized that is good for at least 12 years so it has to be an EV. Needs a minimum range of 300 miles (nothing is there yet) and needs to fit down my driveway (nearly all models are too wide and also most of them are just too big for my taste). I'm also unconvinced the battery life is good enough yet either. So I'm inclined to sit it out for a couple of years.

    I don't really like the idea of buying a second hand car. But I'm increasingly coming to the view that I will have to so maybe this is the time in my life when I could indulge in either an old MG or Land Rover and just hire a proper car whenever I need to do long trips. No road tax, no ULEZ and no depreciation in the meantime.
    If you buy new and run it into the ground 12 years later wouldn't it make more sense to buy a two year old car at a huge discount vs new and run it into the ground 10 years later instead? You obviously have no qualms about driving an old car so why pay through the nose to have a new one for a couple of years? Are you getting some kind of tax break for the new car?
    Yes could do that, but I think a 2-year old car has the same issues as a new one, it needs to be an EV. Maybe an older hybrid might work for me. I haven't made up my mind yet by any means. I don't use a car much, a (decreasing) element of Dad's taxi service, odd days out at weekends and long distance weeks or weekends away. I could probably live without altogether to be honest.
    You might want to check that, unless you're thinking of the situation ten years down the road.

    Most petrol vehicles under 16 years old or diesel vehicles under 6 years old already meet the emissions standards.

    https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/ways-to-meet-the-standard
    Yes, I'm thinking of fuel availabilty in 2033 (for example) or the fact it might just be taxed to hell by then
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,008
    edited January 2023

    Right now this is 1997

    There are times when I think the next election, 2024, perhaps, will go down in history as a greater victory than 1997.

    In many respects the position of the Tories is a lot weaker - the period of Liz Truss as PM is without comparison in British political history. Even historically very poor leaders, deep in English and Scottish history, took a lot longer to bring matters to a point of crisis - Edward II, John (Plantagenet), Mary Queen of Scots.

    I suppose you could point to Lady Jane Grey's Nine Days as Queen, but in many respects that was part of the political leadership of the Duke of Northumberland, who had led the government for about three years - eons compared to Liz Truss.

    We should not be surprised when unprecedented political events lead to unprecedented electoral consequences, and that is what I expect for the next general election.
    Though at least Liz avoided being beheaded, unlikely poor Lady Jane (Boris being the modern day Northumberland)
  • eekeek Posts: 28,592

    On Topic

    SKS will not allow AB to become an MP

    LABs right has such a grip on Selections even centre left Candidates are not welcome

    You are so wrong there I don't even know where to begin....
  • Driver said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    A relevant difference.
    That too is a moving target - and might move a bit faster if government ever get their act together.

    For now its getting worse, as the uptake of EVs has outpaced that building of charging facilities, but that will change.
    Unless the government pays the company that manages my building to put EV charging points in our car park then I'm never going to be able to charge an EV car at home. Which (as I WFH mostly) means I'm going to have to take it somewhere to charge it. Which immediately runs into the "much slower than filling a diesel tank" problem.
    The company that manages your building may decide to do that themselves, as you become a nearly captive market for buying electricity from them to charge your car.

    I think also that the model of fuel stations being specific places you drive to in order to fuel a vehicle will not survive. Eventually most dedicated parking places will have charge points because electricity is easier to handle than petrol/diesel. So every time you park your car will be an opportunity to charge it.

    The transition will be a bit messy, but these are solvable problems.
    Helped by some strange features of the UK.

    Like most lamp posts being wired for 20-32A. WTF did they plan on running from each lamp post? An oven?

    Very handy though for EV charging points, since LED lights on the lamppost itself reduce the requirement for power to zilch.
    Even the old sodium lamps were only about 1000 watts, so 4 A current. Nice to know that something in this country was over-engineered.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106
    @oliver_wright: William Hague categorically rules out becoming the next Conservative chairman. "Under no circumstances" he says.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,592
    edited January 2023

    Rishi Sunak really has made a spectacular mess of handling the Zahawi issue. It's been completely obvious for weeks that this was going to end with Zahawi either resigning or being sacked. If Sunak had acted promptly and decisively, he could have got credit for carrying through on his promise to clean things up. Instead he's got the worst of all worlds. His inexperience is showing, I think.

    Strong disagree, the eventual outcome has indeed been obvious but he has gone through the hoops which have to be gone through to prevent a narrative of He's weak, the press have claimed a scalp. Think of the hay Zahawi would have made with the Noose headline in the absence of an official report.
    Fro a week until the report arrived and reported how much Zahawi had gamed the system by being economic with his facts.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,927

    Driver said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    A relevant difference.
    That too is a moving target - and might move a bit faster if government ever get their act together.

    For now its getting worse, as the uptake of EVs has outpaced that building of charging facilities, but that will change.
    Unless the government pays the company that manages my building to put EV charging points in our car park then I'm never going to be able to charge an EV car at home. Which (as I WFH mostly) means I'm going to have to take it somewhere to charge it. Which immediately runs into the "much slower than filling a diesel tank" problem.
    The company that manages your building may decide to do that themselves, as you become a nearly captive market for buying electricity from them to charge your car.

    I think also that the model of fuel stations being specific places you drive to in order to fuel a vehicle will not survive. Eventually most dedicated parking places will have charge points because electricity is easier to handle than petrol/diesel. So every time you park your car will be an opportunity to charge it.

    The transition will be a bit messy, but these are solvable problems.
    Helped by some strange features of the UK.

    Like most lamp posts being wired for 20-32A. WTF did they plan on running from each lamp post? An oven?

    Very handy though for EV charging points, since LED lights on the lamppost itself reduce the requirement for power to zilch.
    Yesterday I drove to three different shops in two different towns and parked in three different off-road car parks. It will take time, but there's no fundamental reason why I won't in future be able to charge an electric car at all three of those car parks.

    I had a choice of six different supermarkets in the two different towns, and if only one of them had car charging points in all its car parking spaces then that would certainly be a competitive advantage.
  • Roger said:

    I would still be interested to hear why the ministerial code which Sunak followed in getting rid of Zahawi was able to be circumvented when it came to Suella Braverman?

    Look them. Which one is more likely to bite your ankles?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    A thousand new Ambulances sounds good but if they are just making a longer queue outside a&e
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,196

    Driver said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How do EVs help the environment if much of the electricity to charge them is produced using fossil fuels?

    Depends on the fuel. Vehicle efficiency. Power plant efficiency

    1 litre of petrol is 8.9 kwh / 2.3 kg of CO2
    1 litre of diesel is 10 kwh / 2.7 kg CO2.

    So the ~ 550 miles I get out of ~ 50 litres (500 kwh) of diesel produces 135 kg of CO2 - Give or take

    4 miles/kg CO2.

    How many miles does an EV get out of a kg of CO2 produced ?
    That's increasing every year as renewables increase, surely?
    What you need is called a Well To Wheels Calculation. This is a the calculation of CO2 emitted from the start of energy production to the actual driving on the road.
    Not really, since there are so many disputed factors (the wood pellet burning mentioned above is an example) over so many different modalities, and what is being described is constantly changing.

    The point is that the difference between EVs and ICEs is very large on current technology. Arguing over details is entertaining, but it doesn't really shift the calculus.
    The relevant difference is 4 minutes to put 400 miles range into my diesel Vs the guy I met at a service station over Christmas who queued for an hour to plug his tesla in for a rationed 90 minutes to get him the next 120 miles.
    A relevant difference.
    That too is a moving target - and might move a bit faster if government ever get their act together.

    For now its getting worse, as the uptake of EVs has outpaced that building of charging facilities, but that will change.
    Unless the government pays the company that manages my building to put EV charging points in our car park then I'm never going to be able to charge an EV car at home. Which (as I WFH mostly) means I'm going to have to take it somewhere to charge it. Which immediately runs into the "much slower than filling a diesel tank" problem.
    The company that manages your building may decide to do that themselves, as you become a nearly captive market for buying electricity from them to charge your car.

    I think also that the model of fuel stations being specific places you drive to in order to fuel a vehicle will not survive. Eventually most dedicated parking places will have charge points because electricity is easier to handle than petrol/diesel. So every time you park your car will be an opportunity to charge it.

    The transition will be a bit messy, but these are solvable problems.
    Helped by some strange features of the UK.

    Like most lamp posts being wired for 20-32A. WTF did they plan on running from each lamp post? An oven?

    Very handy though for EV charging points, since LED lights on the lamppost itself reduce the requirement for power to zilch.
    Even the old sodium lamps were only about 1000 watts, so 4 A current. Nice to know that something in this country was over-engineered.
    When I heard about the 32A ones, I had a vision of a searchlight mounted on the top of every lamppost to create a Cathedral of Light....
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,903

    Sean_F said:

    It seems Zahawi is blaming everyone but himself for his own predicament.

    What a petit morceau de merde he is.

    It's a very rare thing for a politician to put his hands up and say "fair cop".
    Up to a point, but the grumpy entitlement shown by NZ does feel like a new distasteful development.

    Ministers serve at the PM's arbitrary pleasure. Rishi doesn't have to give a reason at all.

    (I wonder if the problem is the one that you risk in meritocracy, namely that the winners think that all their success is down to their brilliance, forgetting all the random bits of good fortune that also came their way.)
    Yep, it's an extension of the mindset of the millionaire business people that now proliferate in politics. Miraculously all of them seem to have made it entirely through their own efforts and in spite of rather than because they live in a largely prosperous and peaceful developed state. Any setbacks are seen as an insult to their unique talents, and down to outside factors rather than mistakes they've made. Also another facet of Trumpism of course.
    It was there long, long before Trump got anywhere near politics.

    And it isn't just "millionaires" or "business people". It's what I call the New Upper 10,000 - they believe that they are ruling class, by right. So whatever they do is Blessed. And any annoying little incidents where little people get broken are not their fault, because they Followed Best Practise. And Lessons Will Be Learned. In their new job, which pays more than the one they fucked up.

    The local council instituted cycle lanes - shut down bus lanes to do it. They have now been repeatedly digging up the roads to rework them for about 18 months or so. So, because the cyclists have now got nowhere to actually cycle, they are at greater risk from vehicles on the shrunken roads. Strangely, this has resulted in a number of accidents.

    The expert on cycle lanes, working for the Council, furrowed his brow at a meeting (online), in the style of Sir Ian Blair and declared it was all very hard for him. But its OK, because he is off to another council, out of London, to a bigger job....
    I'm not sure that the guy who plans cycle lanes for the local council really qualifies for the NU10k.
    Apparently, he is on more than Cressida Dick. Consultancy, of course....

    So he has the money, and apparently the immunity from reality.
    The private sector is full of well-paid nobodies though (including me!) Am I one of the top 10k influential/powerful people in the UK? No.
  • A thousand new Ambulances sounds good but if they are just making a longer queue outside a&e

    Remember when you told us how good Johnson was? Are you sure you want to support the Tories again?

    Hope you're keeping well BJO
This discussion has been closed.