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The Intermarium – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,017
edited February 2023 in General
The Intermarium – politicalbetting.com

On this day, 160 years ago, the uprising of 1863 began, the uprising of the liberation of the peoples of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the Kingdom of Poland from the Russian Empire. Today, the war with the Russian Empire still continues. pic.twitter.com/kESq1hq09x

Read the full story here

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Comments

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    Nice piece Viewcode.
  • Options
    Oooh that was a rare first.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,186
    Real turd, like Zahawi.
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    kle4 said:


    It is, but in his defence a large chunk of Labour believed that, or pretended to believe it, during the Corbyn years, and it wasn't actually unheard of even before then to hear people claim New Labour won in 1997 by becoming the Tories, silly though that might be.

    HYUFD has a long history of pretending to know about Labour Party leaders, internal politics and history when he knows very little. He's been shown up so many times, it is embarrassing he keeps posting this drivel.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    Interesting stuff, thanks viewcode.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    I have never heard the term intermarium before. Very interesting to learn a bit more about what is up. Supporting Poland on the Ukraine issue is a no brainer, given their own eagerness and proximity.

    I did chuckle at this line, as I feel many elections end this way.

    Merkel’s Chancellory wended to its weary end, never challenged but spasmodic and reflexive. In 2021 the Germans went “whatever” and voted in Olaf Scholtz, possibly just for the variety

    Some odd question marks auto inserted as the text was copied over I assume.
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited January 2023
    Interesting header.

    Poland has a rich history, but i must say I wouldn't advocate it becoming a regional superpower until it makes some substantial social and intellectual changes. The prevailing climate, and a good half of the population, as demonstrated by the state broadcaster, are still susceptible to highly nationalist anti-semitism , and various forms of cultural reaction. There is a large group of people making up a different Poland, but it struggles to be heard sometimes.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,077
    ON topic for @Luckyguy1983


    “I'm not a fan of the song personally.“


    This is borderline transphobic antisemitic racist QAnonT flat Earth Trumpism. How can you NOT like Mmmbop? You are skirting a lifelong ban

    Here’s a doo-wop version. For the record, MmmBop was inspired by Doo-wop, so this is apt

    https://youtu.be/iEejfq1KhkU
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,413
    Why would the UK need to 'cope' with Poland gaining influence on the continent? We would be blessed not to have any continental entanglements at all - each and every time we get involved in a continental territorial conflict, we end up the poorer for it; this time is no exception. We need to learn to let them get on with it and mind our own fucking business.

    As for who is going to pay for Ukraine's reconstruction, having contributed handsomely to its destruction, I am not looking forward to our share of the bill for putting it all back up again. Russia should pay most of it but I don't see that happening unless they hold the territory that is being repaired.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,734
    kle4 said:

    Some odd question marks auto inserted as the text was copied over I assume.

    Damn. Yes, it's Polish lettering.

    Pi?sudski = Piłsudski = Pilsudski
    Kaczy?ski= Kaczyński = Kaczynski
    Jaros?aw = Jarosław = Jaroslaw
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,612
    Fascinating thread - and I learned a new word. Not sure I see any problem for the U.K. in having a regionally robust Poland though. I’d have thought the Germans might be more miffed?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,612
    Tres said:

    CD13 said:

    A somewhat odd discussion today, but the science is clear. The reference limits depend on the units used, but there is no overlap between testosterone levels in the sexes - whether total, free or bioavailable. It is not like height or weight.

    There are minor complications like in the rare varieties of intersex, but these are very rare. CAIS is for instance, around one birth in 50,000. Yes, in this case, the receptor deficit means there is little if any benefit from the androgen, despite the Y chromosome.

    It varies with the sport, but having no differentiation usually means women can never rise to the top of most open sports.

    You can still claim that Serena Williams is the greatest tennis player ever, but she still can't compete physically with men.

    Physically, there's no doubt, but the mental qualitites are still an active source of debate, and where the overlap is much larger.



    Tres said:

    With her mastery of Twitter, independent wealth, and inspiring backstory, JK Rowling is genuinely the most plausible populist insurgent in Britain.

    JK Rowling uses Twitter to label all trans people rapists.
    Citation required.
    https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1619302315248488450
    Deeply amused by those telling me I’ve lost their admiration due to the disrespect I show violent, duplicitous rapists. I shall file your lost admiration carefully in the box where I keep my missing fucks.

    Why on Earth do you think JKR is referring to “all trans people” and not just “violent duplicitous rapists”?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,594
    edited January 2023
    I don't think Germany is Pro-Russian, so much as deeply against war. This means that economic and humanitarian aid to Ukraine is uncontroversial, military aid much more so.

    Germany is not the militaristic country that it was, nor does it particularly look as if that is going to change. The profound defeat in 1945 and soul-searching afterwards, particularly by the German baby boom generation transformed the country.

    It would be useful for Russia to have the same cultural transformation against militarism as Germany or Japan, but rather difficult to see the route to the profound defeat required. There might have been that opportunity in the nineties, but we squandered it.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,734
    edited January 2023
    The submitted article contained the credits and the sources, which could not be included because there were quite a lot of them. The above is a truncated version of the short version (ie without the credits and sources). Advance copies of the short version were given to @MattW , @Nigelb, @SeanF in a backstage forum. A longer version back to the 1920's will be written and will include at least one map and an extended list of sources. It will include Stalin's Eastern Bloc, Haushofer's Lebensraum, and Piłsudski's Międzymorze. A discussion forum will be held on either Feb 7 or Feb 14, depending on availabilty.

    If you have any questions add them here and I will address them fully in the discussion forum
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973
    A really excellent threader, thanks Viewcode. As ever, Unicode throws its spanner into the works with some of the letters... ;)

    As an aside: "when Lech died in a plane crash in 2010". That was the Smolensk air disaster, which has proved fertile ground for conspiracy theorists ever since (and given Russia's actions before and since, and Lech's attitude towards Russia, that ground is fairly fertile). But accidents do happen.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smolensk_air_disaster
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,077
    Interesting, but no. Poland is not gonna be a regional superpower

  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,413
    Leon said:

    ON topic for @Luckyguy1983


    “I'm not a fan of the song personally.“


    This is borderline transphobic antisemitic racist QAnonT flat Earth Trumpism. How can you NOT like Mmmbop? You are skirting a lifelong ban

    Here’s a doo-wop version. For the record, MmmBop was inspired by Doo-wop, so this is apt

    https://youtu.be/iEejfq1KhkU

    I just think it's a bit shit.

    I am not averse to a bit (a lot) of musical fromage, but that song is a bit too gamey for me. A lot of that sort of acne rock pop genre of the mid late 90s hasn't aged well. Avrille Lavigne, Busted (sorry I know they're your faves), that Teenage Dirtbag song. It's not that I hate the sound, I like Two Princes by Spin Doctors which sounds very similar. But it really curdled when Hanson etc. came in. It gives me the ick.

    I am very glad you're enjoying a feeling
    of satisfaction though. I'll drink to that.

    My favourite cheesey song is Cliff's 'Wired for sound' - complete with its roller skating video set in Milton Keynes. So by all means shoot me down for that.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    I have sacked Nadhim Zahawi, now that my ethics advisor has informed me that hiding £27m in an offshore account, avoiding £3.7m in tax, lying about it and threatening to sue people is apparently not OK. Who knew?

    https://twitter.com/parody_pm/status/1619630224160993281?s=46&t=SG-nilYLF8wGXszIf9jWDg
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,077
    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,186
    My attempt to put the fluence on Bavuma doesn't seem to have worked.

    SA are on course to thrash England here.
  • Options
    TresTres Posts: 2,223

    Tres said:

    CD13 said:

    A somewhat odd discussion today, but the science is clear. The reference limits depend on the units used, but there is no overlap between testosterone levels in the sexes - whether total, free or bioavailable. It is not like height or weight.

    There are minor complications like in the rare varieties of intersex, but these are very rare. CAIS is for instance, around one birth in 50,000. Yes, in this case, the receptor deficit means there is little if any benefit from the androgen, despite the Y chromosome.

    It varies with the sport, but having no differentiation usually means women can never rise to the top of most open sports.

    You can still claim that Serena Williams is the greatest tennis player ever, but she still can't compete physically with men.

    Physically, there's no doubt, but the mental qualitites are still an active source of debate, and where the overlap is much larger.



    Tres said:

    With her mastery of Twitter, independent wealth, and inspiring backstory, JK Rowling is genuinely the most plausible populist insurgent in Britain.

    JK Rowling uses Twitter to label all trans people rapists.
    Citation required.
    https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1619302315248488450
    Deeply amused by those telling me I’ve lost their admiration due to the disrespect I show violent, duplicitous rapists. I shall file your lost admiration carefully in the box where I keep my missing fucks.

    Why on Earth do you think JKR is referring to “all trans people” and not just “violent duplicitous rapists”?
    Because she has thousands of young fans who adored her books when they were children and it's them that have been calling out her transphobia.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    - “When things settle down, Poland will be the regional superpower in Europe and will be able to dominate the local military space, far in excess of UK. I wonder how UK will cope…

    Correct.

    Forget ‘il sorpasso’, here comes ‘proszkowanie’.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,077

    Leon said:

    ON topic for @Luckyguy1983


    “I'm not a fan of the song personally.“


    This is borderline transphobic antisemitic racist QAnonT flat Earth Trumpism. How can you NOT like Mmmbop? You are skirting a lifelong ban

    Here’s a doo-wop version. For the record, MmmBop was inspired by Doo-wop, so this is apt

    https://youtu.be/iEejfq1KhkU

    I just think it's a bit shit.

    I am not averse to a bit (a lot) of musical fromage, but that song is a bit too gamey for me. A lot of that sort of acne rock pop genre of the mid late 90s hasn't aged well. Avrille Lavigne, Busted (sorry I know they're your faves), that Teenage Dirtbag song. It's not that I hate the sound, I like Two Princes by Spin Doctors which sounds very similar. But it really curdled when Hanson etc. came in. It gives me the ick.

    I am very glad you're enjoying a feeling
    of satisfaction though. I'll drink to that.

    My favourite cheesey song is Cliff's 'Wired for sound' - complete with its roller skating video set in Milton Keynes. So by all means shoot me down for that.
    Not at all. Cliff’s Wired for Sound is a weirdly good song

    But you lack joy if you can’t appreciate MmmBop. For me it is up there with Mozart Vespers - eg Dixit Dominus - as an expression of human jubilation in simply being alive


    https://youtu.be/ej-8mG6dTio
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,104
    Fascinating stuff Viewcode, thanks.

    This is very off topic but a great piece by John Harris.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/29/elitist-leadership-zahawi-schools-britain
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    boulayboulay Posts: 3,916
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    One of the interesting things about you being in Thailand is that you get drunk ahead of normal schedule.
    Are you saying he’s a little bit Thaid and Mmmmotional?
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973
    Off-topic:

    We have some architecture fans (and snobs...) on here, so I thought I'd post Network Rail's new 'flow' footbridge design.

    https://twitter.com/MrTimDunn/status/1619367271406923778

    To be brief: I like it!
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,077
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    One of the interesting things about you being in Thailand is that you get drunk ahead of normal schedule.
    Watch the video. It has been seen ten million times of twitter and yet there are attempts to suppress it on YouTube. It is quite something

    And, for the record, I have had 2 small G&Ts. I am just feeling quite Mmmmboppy
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    Leon said:

    Interesting, but no. Poland is not gonna be a regional superpower

    It depends how you define that.
    Militarily, it will very probably be more powerful than all its near neighbours in the near term. Whether it can sustain that depends upon what happens with its economy, and perhaps on how close its relationship with postwar Ukraine.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,413
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    ON topic for @Luckyguy1983


    “I'm not a fan of the song personally.“


    This is borderline transphobic antisemitic racist QAnonT flat Earth Trumpism. How can you NOT like Mmmbop? You are skirting a lifelong ban

    Here’s a doo-wop version. For the record, MmmBop was inspired by Doo-wop, so this is apt

    https://youtu.be/iEejfq1KhkU

    I just think it's a bit shit.

    I am not averse to a bit (a lot) of musical fromage, but that song is a bit too gamey for me. A lot of that sort of acne rock pop genre of the mid late 90s hasn't aged well. Avrille Lavigne, Busted (sorry I know they're your faves), that Teenage Dirtbag song. It's not that I hate the sound, I like Two Princes by Spin Doctors which sounds very similar. But it really curdled when Hanson etc. came in. It gives me the ick.

    I am very glad you're enjoying a feeling
    of satisfaction though. I'll drink to that.

    My favourite cheesey song is Cliff's 'Wired for sound' - complete with its roller skating video set in Milton Keynes. So by all means shoot me down for that.
    Not at all. Cliff’s Wired for Sound is a weirdly good song

    But you lack joy if you can’t appreciate MmmBop. For me it is up there with Mozart Vespers - eg Dixit Dominus - as an expression of human jubilation in simply being alive

    https://youtu.be/ej-8mG6dTio
    Perhaps it's also in combination with it coming at a fondly remembered time in life for you.

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541

    Off-topic:

    We have some architecture fans (and snobs...) on here, so I thought I'd post Network Rail's new 'flow' footbridge design.

    https://twitter.com/MrTimDunn/status/1619367271406923778

    To be brief: I like it!

    Better view from above:
    https://twitter.com/MrTimDunn/status/1619367841467371521

    I like it, too.
    And the design could also be done in an extended wheelchair accessible version by the look of it.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,413
    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    Fairly evil really. They should be banned from having their drugs prescribed by the NHS.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,077

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    ON topic for @Luckyguy1983


    “I'm not a fan of the song personally.“


    This is borderline transphobic antisemitic racist QAnonT flat Earth Trumpism. How can you NOT like Mmmbop? You are skirting a lifelong ban

    Here’s a doo-wop version. For the record, MmmBop was inspired by Doo-wop, so this is apt

    https://youtu.be/iEejfq1KhkU

    I just think it's a bit shit.

    I am not averse to a bit (a lot) of musical fromage, but that song is a bit too gamey for me. A lot of that sort of acne rock pop genre of the mid late 90s hasn't aged well. Avrille Lavigne, Busted (sorry I know they're your faves), that Teenage Dirtbag song. It's not that I hate the sound, I like Two Princes by Spin Doctors which sounds very similar. But it really curdled when Hanson etc. came in. It gives me the ick.

    I am very glad you're enjoying a feeling
    of satisfaction though. I'll drink to that.

    My favourite cheesey song is Cliff's 'Wired for sound' - complete with its roller skating video set in Milton Keynes. So by all means shoot me down for that.
    Not at all. Cliff’s Wired for Sound is a weirdly good song

    But you lack joy if you can’t appreciate MmmBop. For me it is up there with Mozart Vespers - eg Dixit Dominus - as an expression of human jubilation in simply being alive

    https://youtu.be/ej-8mG6dTio
    Perhaps it's also in combination with it coming at a fondly remembered time in life for you.

    In fact not. I was in the depths of smack addiction

    It was only a few years later that I realised - on hearing it again with a clear head - that it is one of the greatest pop songs ever written
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,413
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Interesting, but no. Poland is not gonna be a regional superpower

    It depends how you define that.
    Militarily, it will very probably be more powerful than all its near neighbours in the near term. Whether it can sustain that depends upon what happens with its economy, and perhaps on how close its relationship with postwar Ukraine.
    Poland has always been built up, then mown down. Nothing changes - this is a building up bit.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    One of the interesting things about you being in Thailand is that you get drunk ahead of normal schedule.
    Watch the video. It has been seen ten million times of twitter and yet there are attempts to suppress it on YouTube. It is quite something

    And, for the record, I have had 2 small G&Ts. I am just feeling quite Mmmmboppy
    You might read this thread, too.
    Since I don't see Biotwitter commenting on this, let me give my take on what Pfizer might have been trying to do. Disclaimer - my entire PhD research project was directed evolution.
    https://twitter.com/AppleHelix/status/1619128579635412995

  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,077

    - “When things settle down, Poland will be the regional superpower in Europe and will be able to dominate the local military space, far in excess of UK. I wonder how UK will cope…

    Correct.

    Forget ‘il sorpasso’, here comes ‘proszkowanie’.

    The sorpasso was, of course, swiftly reversed by the anti-sorpasso when the UK by GDP overtook Italy again, a situation which has remained the same ever since
  • Options
    Worth noting that much of what is now in Ukraine was in the Commowealth of Poland-Lithuania (initally mostly Lithuanian, later primarily Polish). However from the 17th century there were various revolts (usually led by Cossacks and sometimes related to friction between Catholic and Orthodox) e.g. the Khmelnytsky insurrection of 1648. It was shortly after this that the Russians got involved.
    This history of Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainain relations is complex and not completely friendly.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,077
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    One of the interesting things about you being in Thailand is that you get drunk ahead of normal schedule.
    Watch the video. It has been seen ten million times of twitter and yet there are attempts to suppress it on YouTube. It is quite something

    And, for the record, I have had 2 small G&Ts. I am just feeling quite Mmmmboppy
    You might read this thread, too.
    Since I don't see Biotwitter commenting on this, let me give my take on what Pfizer might have been trying to do. Disclaimer - my entire PhD research project was directed evolution.
    https://twitter.com/AppleHelix/status/1619128579635412995

    Today also saw the UN saying Yeah, it probably came from the lab

    Take that with this admission from Pfizer: Fuck, of course it came from the lab

    I think we can conclude it almost certainly came from the lab. Indeed is anyone sane now claiming otherwise?


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11687651/IAN-BIRRELL-experts-say-lab-leak-likely-cause-Covid-19.html

    The claims of cover up are now 100% irrrefutable
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,120
    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    Interesting that this "major Pfizer executive" is totally unfindable on the Internet.

    I suppose the brain-dead will take that as proof of a cover-up ...
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,413
    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    Interesting that this "major Pfizer executive" is totally unfindable on the Internet.

    I suppose the brain-dead will take that as proof of a cover-up ...
    You think that this is an actor, pretending to be a non-existent Pfizer executive?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    One of the interesting things about you being in Thailand is that you get drunk ahead of normal schedule.
    Watch the video. It has been seen ten million times of twitter and yet there are attempts to suppress it on YouTube. It is quite something

    And, for the record, I have had 2 small G&Ts. I am just feeling quite Mmmmboppy
    You might read this thread, too.
    Since I don't see Biotwitter commenting on this, let me give my take on what Pfizer might have been trying to do. Disclaimer - my entire PhD research project was directed evolution.
    https://twitter.com/AppleHelix/status/1619128579635412995

    Today also saw the UN saying Yeah, it probably came from the lab

    Take that with this admission from Pfizer: Fuck, of course it came from the lab

    I think we can conclude it almost certainly came from the lab. Indeed is anyone sane now claiming otherwise?


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11687651/IAN-BIRRELL-experts-say-lab-leak-likely-cause-Covid-19.html

    The claims of cover up are now 100% irrrefutable
    Sure.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    Interesting that this "major Pfizer executive" is totally unfindable on the Internet.

    I suppose the brain-dead will take that as proof of a cover-up ...
    Side note, this guy was ex-BCG who probably worked at Pfizer as a BCG consultant. The Pfizer BCG team is probably having a panic attack right now.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/AppleHelix/status/1619138811203829760

    I think I knew him when I was at BCG hahahah. He was in my orientation batch. I also very much agree that MDs do not actually understand biology well.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/varma_ashwin97/status/1619471307288227840
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Interesting, but no. Poland is not gonna be a regional superpower

    It depends how you define that.
    Militarily, it will very probably be more powerful than all its near neighbours in the near term. Whether it can sustain that depends upon what happens with its economy, and perhaps on how close its relationship with postwar Ukraine.
    Poland has always been built up, then mown down. Nothing changes - this is a building up bit.
    This time, Poland is looking to build solid alliances with all its immediate neighbours. The explicit rejection of irredentism by most of nationalist right in Poland is a part of this - and advocated for this reason.

    Poland + Ukraine + neighbours will dominate any future European military organisation, probably.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    One of the interesting things about you being in Thailand is that you get drunk ahead of normal schedule.
    Watch the video. It has been seen ten million times of twitter and yet there are attempts to suppress it on YouTube. It is quite something

    And, for the record, I have had 2 small G&Ts. I am just feeling quite Mmmmboppy
    You might read this thread, too.
    Since I don't see Biotwitter commenting on this, let me give my take on what Pfizer might have been trying to do. Disclaimer - my entire PhD research project was directed evolution.
    https://twitter.com/AppleHelix/status/1619128579635412995

    Today also saw the UN saying Yeah, it probably came from the lab

    Take that with this admission from Pfizer: Fuck, of course it came from the lab

    I think we can conclude it almost certainly came from the lab. Indeed is anyone sane now claiming otherwise?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11687651/IAN-BIRRELL-experts-say-lab-leak-likely-cause-Covid-19.html

    The claims of cover up are now 100% irrrefutable
    Natural still the most likely, I'd say. But let's keep an open mind.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,055
    edited January 2023

    - “When things settle down, Poland will be the regional superpower in Europe and will be able to dominate the local military space, far in excess of UK. I wonder how UK will cope…

    Correct.

    Forget ‘il sorpasso’, here comes ‘proszkowanie’.

    Poland's GDP per capita is forecast to surpass Germany by 2040 based on IMF projections.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,077

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    Interesting that this "major Pfizer executive" is totally unfindable on the Internet.

    I suppose the brain-dead will take that as proof of a cover-up ...
    You think that this is an actor, pretending to be a non-existent Pfizer executive?
    The contortions people will go to, so as not to see what is in front of their faces, are incredible
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365

    Why would the UK need to 'cope' with Poland gaining influence on the continent? We would be blessed not to have any continental entanglements at all - each and every time we get involved in a continental territorial conflict, we end up the poorer for it; this time is no exception. We need to learn to let them get on with it and mind our own fucking business.

    As for who is going to pay for Ukraine's reconstruction, having contributed handsomely to its destruction, I am not looking forward to our share of the bill for putting it all back up again. Russia should pay most of it but I don't see that happening unless they hold the territory that is being repaired.

    A post war Ukraine of any stability will represent an incredible investment opportunity - vast returns possible as part of rebuilding country and from it “levelling up” with the rest of Europe.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,413

    Why would the UK need to 'cope' with Poland gaining influence on the continent? We would be blessed not to have any continental entanglements at all - each and every time we get involved in a continental territorial conflict, we end up the poorer for it; this time is no exception. We need to learn to let them get on with it and mind our own fucking business.

    As for who is going to pay for Ukraine's reconstruction, having contributed handsomely to its destruction, I am not looking forward to our share of the bill for putting it all back up again. Russia should pay most of it but I don't see that happening unless they hold the territory that is being repaired.

    A post war Ukraine of any stability will represent an incredible investment opportunity - vast returns possible as part of rebuilding country and from it “levelling up” with the rest of Europe.
    I would dust down 'heavy lifting', but I'd be unsure of which part of this is straining its biceps the most.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,202
    viewcode said:

    The submitted article contained the credits and the sources, which could not be included because there were quite a lot of them. The above is a truncated version of the short version (ie without the credits and sources). Advance copies of the short version were given to @MattW , @Nigelb, @SeanF in a backstage forum. A longer version back to the 1920's will be written and will include at least one map and an extended list of sources. It will include Stalin's Eastern Bloc, Haushofer's Lebensraum, and Piłsudski's Międzymorze. A discussion forum will be held on either Feb 7 or Feb 14, depending on availabilty.

    If you have any questions add them here and I will address them fully in the discussion forum

    Thank you @viewcode. A really interesting article.

    Coincidentally I have been listening to The Invention of Russia and The Invention of Poland by Misha Glenny on BBC Sounds which cover some of the same ground.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,612
    Lloyd Russel-Moyle upset that the Guardian published his photo:

    If printing his name and photograph is a form of doxing, he's going to be furious with his election agent.

    https://twitter.com/LevinsLaw/status/1619687540071727105
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365
    IanB2 said:

    - “When things settle down, Poland will be the regional superpower in Europe and will be able to dominate the local military space, far in excess of UK. I wonder how UK will cope…

    Correct.

    Forget ‘il sorpasso’, here comes ‘proszkowanie’.

    Indeed. I’ve made a fair few visits to Poland, one of the few soviet bloc countries I hadn’t visited when it was behind the Iron Curtain. The first time was just a year after the wall fell, when the only vehicles on the roads were horses and carts, army vehicles, and the occasional lorry carrying fuel or logs and belching smoke. The housing was mostly grim Soviet era tower blocks; we had dinner with a middle aged friend who struggled to survive in conditions that made any British council block luxurious; almost everything in her tiny cramped flat was jerry-built or bodged and was either falling apart or didn’t work. The currency had collapsed - you could have a full meal and drink at the best restaurant in town for £3.50 and everywhere there were Germans buying up stuff and loading it into their cars. The sign of hope was the unleashing of entrepreneurial spirit - you could drive 200 miles along one of the main roads (no motorways back then) and every half mile there’d be a guy with a roadside barbecue cooking sausages for passing Germans. And near the towns, younger women with their own retail offer for the same clientele.

    On each subsequent visit the progress being made, economically if not always politically, was obvious. More traffic each time, more shops, signs advertising the significant injections of funds from the EU into improving infrastructure. They’ve done wonders with the housing, insofar as that was possible, essentially giving away the publicly-owned blocks to housing association type organisations that have refurbished them, dramatically, inside and out.

    On my last visit, to Wrocław in western Poland, I realised that from the general appearance of the place - the prosperity evidenced by the retail offering, the types of cars on the street, people’s clothing - it was only the Polish writing on the shop fronts that gave away the location; without that you could guess you were in any southern European country.

    Yes, there are still significant issues - embedding liberal western politics remains a challenge, and the benefits of change have fallen toward the principal towns and to the more prosperous west of the country, with the rural east benefitting the least.

    But, in the round, Poland’s transition is one of our lifetime’s genuinely inspiring success stories - the EU’s leading role explaining why Ukraine is so keen to join - and you don’t have to read very much of Poland’s tragic history to realise that such a miraculous happy ending is both less than they deserve but more than they expected.
    The changes in Poland and Bulgaria (the ones I know personally) are pretty startling.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,830
    Thanks for the header.

    After centuries of misrule by its own wretched nobility, and Russia, in Tsarist or Soviet form, it’s good to see Poland back on the rise.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,144
    Ha ha. F*ck Lolverpool.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    Dirty Liverpool on the slide.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,413
    Sean_F said:

    Thanks for the header.

    After centuries of misrule by its own wretched nobility, and Russia, in Tsarist or Soviet form, it’s good to see Poland back on the rise.

    Not to mention Germany and France.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365

    Why would the UK need to 'cope' with Poland gaining influence on the continent? We would be blessed not to have any continental entanglements at all - each and every time we get involved in a continental territorial conflict, we end up the poorer for it; this time is no exception. We need to learn to let them get on with it and mind our own fucking business.

    As for who is going to pay for Ukraine's reconstruction, having contributed handsomely to its destruction, I am not looking forward to our share of the bill for putting it all back up again. Russia should pay most of it but I don't see that happening unless they hold the territory that is being repaired.

    A post war Ukraine of any stability will represent an incredible investment opportunity - vast returns possible as part of rebuilding country and from it “levelling up” with the rest of Europe.
    I would dust down 'heavy lifting', but I'd be unsure of which part of this is straining its biceps the most.
    You have a country, poor in development, but rich in people and with lots of education.

    Historically that is a goldmine to invest in. Providing corruption can be reined in.

    A zillion examples of that - Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Poland, Bulgaria, to name but a few.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,263

    IanB2 said:

    - “When things settle down, Poland will be the regional superpower in Europe and will be able to dominate the local military space, far in excess of UK. I wonder how UK will cope…

    Correct.

    Forget ‘il sorpasso’, here comes ‘proszkowanie’.

    Indeed. I’ve made a fair few visits to Poland, one of the few soviet bloc countries I hadn’t visited when it was behind the Iron Curtain. The first time was just a year after the wall fell, when the only vehicles on the roads were horses and carts, army vehicles, and the occasional lorry carrying fuel or logs and belching smoke. The housing was mostly grim Soviet era tower blocks; we had dinner with a middle aged friend who struggled to survive in conditions that made any British council block luxurious; almost everything in her tiny cramped flat was jerry-built or bodged and was either falling apart or didn’t work. The currency had collapsed - you could have a full meal and drink at the best restaurant in town for £3.50 and everywhere there were Germans buying up stuff and loading it into their cars. The sign of hope was the unleashing of entrepreneurial spirit - you could drive 200 miles along one of the main roads (no motorways back then) and every half mile there’d be a guy with a roadside barbecue cooking sausages for passing Germans. And near the towns, younger women with their own retail offer for the same clientele.

    On each subsequent visit the progress being made, economically if not always politically, was obvious. More traffic each time, more shops, signs advertising the significant injections of funds from the EU into improving infrastructure. They’ve done wonders with the housing, insofar as that was possible, essentially giving away the publicly-owned blocks to housing association type organisations that have refurbished them, dramatically, inside and out.

    On my last visit, to Wrocław in western Poland, I realised that from the general appearance of the place - the prosperity evidenced by the retail offering, the types of cars on the street, people’s clothing - it was only the Polish writing on the shop fronts that gave away the location; without that you could guess you were in any southern European country.

    Yes, there are still significant issues - embedding liberal western politics remains a challenge, and the benefits of change have fallen toward the principal towns and to the more prosperous west of the country, with the rural east benefitting the least.

    But, in the round, Poland’s transition is one of our lifetime’s genuinely inspiring success stories - the EU’s leading role explaining why Ukraine is so keen to join - and you don’t have to read very much of Poland’s tragic history to realise that such a miraculous happy ending is both less than they deserve but more than they expected.
    The changes in Poland and Bulgaria (the ones I know personally) are pretty startling.
    Indeed. And the Poles are (or were) so pro-British. On my 1990 trip across Poland, I stopped the car to get something out of the boot, and two Polish cars pulled over to offer help, thinking I had broken down. One couple even mentioned Winston Churchill, and they all seemed disappointed that I didn’t actually need any help.

    They, and some of the other Central European countries (excepting the Czechs, who have inherited long memories) were our natural allies within the EU, and it is to our and their loss that we are no longer members.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,077
    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    Interesting that this "major Pfizer executive" is totally unfindable on the Internet.

    I suppose the brain-dead will take that as proof of a cover-up ...
    Yes. Totally impossible to find on the internet


  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973

    IanB2 said:

    - “When things settle down, Poland will be the regional superpower in Europe and will be able to dominate the local military space, far in excess of UK. I wonder how UK will cope…

    Correct.

    Forget ‘il sorpasso’, here comes ‘proszkowanie’.

    Indeed. I’ve made a fair few visits to Poland, one of the few soviet bloc countries I hadn’t visited when it was behind the Iron Curtain. The first time was just a year after the wall fell, when the only vehicles on the roads were horses and carts, army vehicles, and the occasional lorry carrying fuel or logs and belching smoke. The housing was mostly grim Soviet era tower blocks; we had dinner with a middle aged friend who struggled to survive in conditions that made any British council block luxurious; almost everything in her tiny cramped flat was jerry-built or bodged and was either falling apart or didn’t work. The currency had collapsed - you could have a full meal and drink at the best restaurant in town for £3.50 and everywhere there were Germans buying up stuff and loading it into their cars. The sign of hope was the unleashing of entrepreneurial spirit - you could drive 200 miles along one of the main roads (no motorways back then) and every half mile there’d be a guy with a roadside barbecue cooking sausages for passing Germans. And near the towns, younger women with their own retail offer for the same clientele.

    On each subsequent visit the progress being made, economically if not always politically, was obvious. More traffic each time, more shops, signs advertising the significant injections of funds from the EU into improving infrastructure. They’ve done wonders with the housing, insofar as that was possible, essentially giving away the publicly-owned blocks to housing association type organisations that have refurbished them, dramatically, inside and out.

    On my last visit, to Wrocław in western Poland, I realised that from the general appearance of the place - the prosperity evidenced by the retail offering, the types of cars on the street, people’s clothing - it was only the Polish writing on the shop fronts that gave away the location; without that you could guess you were in any southern European country.

    Yes, there are still significant issues - embedding liberal western politics remains a challenge, and the benefits of change have fallen toward the principal towns and to the more prosperous west of the country, with the rural east benefitting the least.

    But, in the round, Poland’s transition is one of our lifetime’s genuinely inspiring success stories - the EU’s leading role explaining why Ukraine is so keen to join - and you don’t have to read very much of Poland’s tragic history to realise that such a miraculous happy ending is both less than they deserve but more than they expected.
    The changes in Poland and Bulgaria (the ones I know personally) are pretty startling.
    One of my best friends married a Romanian lass, from the northeast of the country. He probably first knew her in about 2000. He described driving down a dual carriageway in the country, and having one lane taken up by horses and carts, and that it was usual rather than noteworthy for them. He says the country - or that part of it - has changed massively in a decade, let alone two, and it is far more modern/western.

    Incidentally, banning horses off main roads may have led to another scandal, in an example of negative consequences from well-meant actions

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/nadiaarumugam/2013/02/14/the-romanian-horse-cart-ban-thats-probably-behind-europes-horse-meat-scandal/
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2023

    Lloyd Russel-Moyle upset that the Guardian published his photo:

    If printing his name and photograph is a form of doxing, he's going to be furious with his election agent.

    https://twitter.com/LevinsLaw/status/1619687540071727105

    He is a grade A pillock, that stands head and shoulder above pretty much every one of the dunce cap wearing MPs. But of course he is safe as house in his seat.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,263

    IanB2 said:

    - “When things settle down, Poland will be the regional superpower in Europe and will be able to dominate the local military space, far in excess of UK. I wonder how UK will cope…

    Correct.

    Forget ‘il sorpasso’, here comes ‘proszkowanie’.

    Indeed. I’ve made a fair few visits to Poland, one of the few soviet bloc countries I hadn’t visited when it was behind the Iron Curtain. The first time was just a year after the wall fell, when the only vehicles on the roads were horses and carts, army vehicles, and the occasional lorry carrying fuel or logs and belching smoke. The housing was mostly grim Soviet era tower blocks; we had dinner with a middle aged friend who struggled to survive in conditions that made any British council block luxurious; almost everything in her tiny cramped flat was jerry-built or bodged and was either falling apart or didn’t work. The currency had collapsed - you could have a full meal and drink at the best restaurant in town for £3.50 and everywhere there were Germans buying up stuff and loading it into their cars. The sign of hope was the unleashing of entrepreneurial spirit - you could drive 200 miles along one of the main roads (no motorways back then) and every half mile there’d be a guy with a roadside barbecue cooking sausages for passing Germans. And near the towns, younger women with their own retail offer for the same clientele.

    On each subsequent visit the progress being made, economically if not always politically, was obvious. More traffic each time, more shops, signs advertising the significant injections of funds from the EU into improving infrastructure. They’ve done wonders with the housing, insofar as that was possible, essentially giving away the publicly-owned blocks to housing association type organisations that have refurbished them, dramatically, inside and out.

    On my last visit, to Wrocław in western Poland, I realised that from the general appearance of the place - the prosperity evidenced by the retail offering, the types of cars on the street, people’s clothing - it was only the Polish writing on the shop fronts that gave away the location; without that you could guess you were in any southern European country.

    Yes, there are still significant issues - embedding liberal western politics remains a challenge, and the benefits of change have fallen toward the principal towns and to the more prosperous west of the country, with the rural east benefitting the least.

    But, in the round, Poland’s transition is one of our lifetime’s genuinely inspiring success stories - the EU’s leading role explaining why Ukraine is so keen to join - and you don’t have to read very much of Poland’s tragic history to realise that such a miraculous happy ending is both less than they deserve but more than they expected.
    The changes in Poland and Bulgaria (the ones I know personally) are pretty startling.
    One of my best friends married a Romanian lass, from the northeast of the country. He probably first knew her in about 2000. He described driving down a dual carriageway in the country, and having one lane taken up by horses and carts, and that it was usual rather than noteworthy for them. He says the country - or that part of it - has changed massively in a decade, let alone two, and it is far more modern/western.

    Incidentally, banning horses off main roads may have led to another scandal, in an example of negative consequences from well-meant actions

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/nadiaarumugam/2013/02/14/the-romanian-horse-cart-ban-thats-probably-behind-europes-horse-meat-scandal/
    I travelled around Romania as a student in the early 1980s, on an Interrail trip. Which was most educational, but I can honestly say that communist Romania was the most miserable place that I have visited in my lifetime.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,413

    Why would the UK need to 'cope' with Poland gaining influence on the continent? We would be blessed not to have any continental entanglements at all - each and every time we get involved in a continental territorial conflict, we end up the poorer for it; this time is no exception. We need to learn to let them get on with it and mind our own fucking business.

    As for who is going to pay for Ukraine's reconstruction, having contributed handsomely to its destruction, I am not looking forward to our share of the bill for putting it all back up again. Russia should pay most of it but I don't see that happening unless they hold the territory that is being repaired.

    A post war Ukraine of any stability will represent an incredible investment opportunity - vast returns possible as part of rebuilding country and from it “levelling up” with the rest of Europe.
    I would dust down 'heavy lifting', but I'd be unsure of which part of this is straining its biceps the most.
    You have a country, poor in development, but rich in people and with lots of education.

    Historically that is a goldmine to invest in. Providing corruption can be reined in.

    A zillion examples of that - Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Poland, Bulgaria, to name but a few.
    I'm not going to put down the Ukrainians.

    However, the US now (if not before) as good as owns them, by virtue of all their military aid being loans. Ukraine must have racked up several times its yearly budget in US military equipment now. The US will award reconstruction contracts, primarily to US companies, and recalling the reconstruction of Iraq, being a staunch ally did not get you first dibs even on what was left.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    - “When things settle down, Poland will be the regional superpower in Europe and will be able to dominate the local military space, far in excess of UK. I wonder how UK will cope…

    Correct.

    Forget ‘il sorpasso’, here comes ‘proszkowanie’.

    Indeed. I’ve made a fair few visits to Poland, one of the few soviet bloc countries I hadn’t visited when it was behind the Iron Curtain. The first time was just a year after the wall fell, when the only vehicles on the roads were horses and carts, army vehicles, and the occasional lorry carrying fuel or logs and belching smoke. The housing was mostly grim Soviet era tower blocks; we had dinner with a middle aged friend who struggled to survive in conditions that made any British council block luxurious; almost everything in her tiny cramped flat was jerry-built or bodged and was either falling apart or didn’t work. The currency had collapsed - you could have a full meal and drink at the best restaurant in town for £3.50 and everywhere there were Germans buying up stuff and loading it into their cars. The sign of hope was the unleashing of entrepreneurial spirit - you could drive 200 miles along one of the main roads (no motorways back then) and every half mile there’d be a guy with a roadside barbecue cooking sausages for passing Germans. And near the towns, younger women with their own retail offer for the same clientele.

    On each subsequent visit the progress being made, economically if not always politically, was obvious. More traffic each time, more shops, signs advertising the significant injections of funds from the EU into improving infrastructure. They’ve done wonders with the housing, insofar as that was possible, essentially giving away the publicly-owned blocks to housing association type organisations that have refurbished them, dramatically, inside and out.

    On my last visit, to Wrocław in western Poland, I realised that from the general appearance of the place - the prosperity evidenced by the retail offering, the types of cars on the street, people’s clothing - it was only the Polish writing on the shop fronts that gave away the location; without that you could guess you were in any southern European country.

    Yes, there are still significant issues - embedding liberal western politics remains a challenge, and the benefits of change have fallen toward the principal towns and to the more prosperous west of the country, with the rural east benefitting the least.

    But, in the round, Poland’s transition is one of our lifetime’s genuinely inspiring success stories - the EU’s leading role explaining why Ukraine is so keen to join - and you don’t have to read very much of Poland’s tragic history to realise that such a miraculous happy ending is both less than they deserve but more than they expected.
    The changes in Poland and Bulgaria (the ones I know personally) are pretty startling.
    One of my best friends married a Romanian lass, from the northeast of the country. He probably first knew her in about 2000. He described driving down a dual carriageway in the country, and having one lane taken up by horses and carts, and that it was usual rather than noteworthy for them. He says the country - or that part of it - has changed massively in a decade, let alone two, and it is far more modern/western.

    Incidentally, banning horses off main roads may have led to another scandal, in an example of negative consequences from well-meant actions

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/nadiaarumugam/2013/02/14/the-romanian-horse-cart-ban-thats-probably-behind-europes-horse-meat-scandal/
    I travelled around Romania as a student in the early 1980s, on an Interrail trip. Which was most educational, but I can honestly say that communist Romania was the most miserable place that I have visited in my lifetime.
    I went over for a wedding about 15 years ago, and we went on a coach trip to Transylvania. The coach stopped on a mountain pass and we looked down on a town in a valley. The houses at the top of the valley were red-roofed, traditional-looking things. Then there was a marked line, after which the buildings were all concrete, brutalist blocks. Then there was another line, and there was a small section of the smaller red-roofed houses.

    It amused me that you could see when communism started and ended in the architecture, from a distance.

    I wish I knew where that was, as I wouldn't mind looking at it in Google Maps.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973

    Why would the UK need to 'cope' with Poland gaining influence on the continent? We would be blessed not to have any continental entanglements at all - each and every time we get involved in a continental territorial conflict, we end up the poorer for it; this time is no exception. We need to learn to let them get on with it and mind our own fucking business.

    As for who is going to pay for Ukraine's reconstruction, having contributed handsomely to its destruction, I am not looking forward to our share of the bill for putting it all back up again. Russia should pay most of it but I don't see that happening unless they hold the territory that is being repaired.

    A post war Ukraine of any stability will represent an incredible investment opportunity - vast returns possible as part of rebuilding country and from it “levelling up” with the rest of Europe.
    I would dust down 'heavy lifting', but I'd be unsure of which part of this is straining its biceps the most.
    You have a country, poor in development, but rich in people and with lots of education.

    Historically that is a goldmine to invest in. Providing corruption can be reined in.

    A zillion examples of that - Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Poland, Bulgaria, to name but a few.
    I'm not going to put down the Ukrainians.

    However, the US now (if not before) as good as owns them, by virtue of all their military aid being loans. Ukraine must have racked up several times its yearly budget in US military equipment now. The US will award reconstruction contracts, primarily to US companies, and recalling the reconstruction of Iraq, being a staunch ally did not get you first dibs even on what was left.
    That won't be much of an issue for them, particularly compared to the horrors Russia would commit, and are committing.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,077
    I hate to be the anti-Polish party-pooper, but this entire thread is bollocks

    Poland is economically growing mainly because is is receiving huge EU subsidies. There is no amazing economic miracle


    “In 2004-2021, Poland received EUR 210 billion and paid just EUR 69 billion to the EU budget, PIE said in its weekly bulletin on Thursday, quoting Finance Ministry data.“

    https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/polands-receipts-from-eu-budget-far-outweigh-payments-says-think-tank-31274

    Meanwhile its population is shrinking and ageing due to low birth rates and migration


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Poland

    The idea it is going to magically emerge from this to be the most powerful nation in Europe, or an intergalactic hyper nuclear warrior empire or whatever, is just fucking farcical. What a stupid thread. Next
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2023
    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    Interesting that this "major Pfizer executive" is totally unfindable on the Internet.

    I suppose the brain-dead will take that as proof of a cover-up ...
    Yes. Totally impossible to find on the internet


    There is plenty of evidence this guy really exists, unless boston consulting group is some fake organisation....(its not its a 60 year old company, with 25000 employees).

    The Near-Term Outlook for COVID-19 Therapeutic Treatments
    MAY 08, 2020
    By Ciarán Lawlor, Ahad Wahid, MD, Jordon Walker, and Josh Kellar

    https://www.bcg.com/publications/2020/outlook-for-covid-19-therapeutic-treatments

    His photo is at the bottom of the paper.

    Doesn't mean he wasn't bullshitting / exaggerating to his date, but he isn't some false flag PV actor.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,413

    Why would the UK need to 'cope' with Poland gaining influence on the continent? We would be blessed not to have any continental entanglements at all - each and every time we get involved in a continental territorial conflict, we end up the poorer for it; this time is no exception. We need to learn to let them get on with it and mind our own fucking business.

    As for who is going to pay for Ukraine's reconstruction, having contributed handsomely to its destruction, I am not looking forward to our share of the bill for putting it all back up again. Russia should pay most of it but I don't see that happening unless they hold the territory that is being repaired.

    A post war Ukraine of any stability will represent an incredible investment opportunity - vast returns possible as part of rebuilding country and from it “levelling up” with the rest of Europe.
    I would dust down 'heavy lifting', but I'd be unsure of which part of this is straining its biceps the most.
    You have a country, poor in development, but rich in people and with lots of education.

    Historically that is a goldmine to invest in. Providing corruption can be reined in.

    A zillion examples of that - Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Poland, Bulgaria, to name but a few.
    I'm not going to put down the Ukrainians.

    However, the US now (if not before) as good as owns them, by virtue of all their military aid being loans. Ukraine must have racked up several times its yearly budget in US military equipment now. The US will award reconstruction contracts, primarily to US companies, and recalling the reconstruction of Iraq, being a staunch ally did not get you first dibs even on what was left.
    That won't be much of an issue for them, particularly compared to the horrors Russia would commit, and are committing.
    I have never suggested it would be. For most Ukrainians, it's their preferred choice. I am saying that for us, like Iraq, the conflict is financially deleterious and will continue to be so in its aftermath.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973
    Incidentally, in things-could-get-messier news, it looks as though Iran and Azerbaijan might be getting ready for a little conflict. The Azerbaijanian embassy in Tehran was attacked on Friday, and a security guard killed, and it looks as though the Azeris are pulling out all of their embassy staff.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,263
    edited January 2023

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    - “When things settle down, Poland will be the regional superpower in Europe and will be able to dominate the local military space, far in excess of UK. I wonder how UK will cope…

    Correct.

    Forget ‘il sorpasso’, here comes ‘proszkowanie’.

    Indeed. I’ve made a fair few visits to Poland, one of the few soviet bloc countries I hadn’t visited when it was behind the Iron Curtain. The first time was just a year after the wall fell, when the only vehicles on the roads were horses and carts, army vehicles, and the occasional lorry carrying fuel or logs and belching smoke. The housing was mostly grim Soviet era tower blocks; we had dinner with a middle aged friend who struggled to survive in conditions that made any British council block luxurious; almost everything in her tiny cramped flat was jerry-built or bodged and was either falling apart or didn’t work. The currency had collapsed - you could have a full meal and drink at the best restaurant in town for £3.50 and everywhere there were Germans buying up stuff and loading it into their cars. The sign of hope was the unleashing of entrepreneurial spirit - you could drive 200 miles along one of the main roads (no motorways back then) and every half mile there’d be a guy with a roadside barbecue cooking sausages for passing Germans. And near the towns, younger women with their own retail offer for the same clientele.

    On each subsequent visit the progress being made, economically if not always politically, was obvious. More traffic each time, more shops, signs advertising the significant injections of funds from the EU into improving infrastructure. They’ve done wonders with the housing, insofar as that was possible, essentially giving away the publicly-owned blocks to housing association type organisations that have refurbished them, dramatically, inside and out.

    On my last visit, to Wrocław in western Poland, I realised that from the general appearance of the place - the prosperity evidenced by the retail offering, the types of cars on the street, people’s clothing - it was only the Polish writing on the shop fronts that gave away the location; without that you could guess you were in any southern European country.

    Yes, there are still significant issues - embedding liberal western politics remains a challenge, and the benefits of change have fallen toward the principal towns and to the more prosperous west of the country, with the rural east benefitting the least.

    But, in the round, Poland’s transition is one of our lifetime’s genuinely inspiring success stories - the EU’s leading role explaining why Ukraine is so keen to join - and you don’t have to read very much of Poland’s tragic history to realise that such a miraculous happy ending is both less than they deserve but more than they expected.
    The changes in Poland and Bulgaria (the ones I know personally) are pretty startling.
    One of my best friends married a Romanian lass, from the northeast of the country. He probably first knew her in about 2000. He described driving down a dual carriageway in the country, and having one lane taken up by horses and carts, and that it was usual rather than noteworthy for them. He says the country - or that part of it - has changed massively in a decade, let alone two, and it is far more modern/western.

    Incidentally, banning horses off main roads may have led to another scandal, in an example of negative consequences from well-meant actions

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/nadiaarumugam/2013/02/14/the-romanian-horse-cart-ban-thats-probably-behind-europes-horse-meat-scandal/
    I travelled around Romania as a student in the early 1980s, on an Interrail trip. Which was most educational, but I can honestly say that communist Romania was the most miserable place that I have visited in my lifetime.
    I went over for a wedding about 15 years ago, and we went on a coach trip to Transylvania. The coach stopped on a mountain pass and we looked down on a town in a valley. The houses at the top of the valley were red-roofed, traditional-looking things. Then there was a marked line, after which the buildings were all concrete, brutalist blocks. Then there was another line, and there was a small section of the smaller red-roofed houses.

    It amused me that you could see when communism started and ended in the architecture, from a distance.

    I wish I knew where that was, as I wouldn't mind looking at it in Google Maps.
    I was just a naive twenty year old, and didn’t fully appreciate some of the things that happened to us on that trip until years later. The law back then was that any Romanian who had a conversation with someone from the west had to go to a police station and file a report, which no-one would do because it was effectively painting a target on your back for the Securitate. So no-one would speak to us in any public setting, but were often very keen to do so in private. Some of which I later realised were probably Securitate stings - on a train we were befriended by this guy most insistent to see some British money, and when I showed him a 10p piece offered to buy it for the equivalent of several pounds in Romanian money. We didn’t need any more Romanian money since visitors back then were already compelled to exchange a mandatory daily amount into Romanian Lei and there was absolutely nothing worth buying. So I politely refused. It was only later that I realised he was trying to entice us into an illegal currency exchange that would have enabled the authorities to pull us for questioning.

    It was such a sad, grim, miserable place, with people trying to live their lives with very few of the freedoms we take for granted. No food in the shops, and surrounded by patently absurd state propaganda. It’s why I get annoyed when the likes of ex-MP Nick of this parish are so blasé about their communist-supporting past.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,263
    Leon said:

    I hate to be the anti-Polish party-pooper, but this entire thread is bollocks

    Poland is economically growing mainly because is is receiving huge EU subsidies. There is no amazing economic miracle


    “In 2004-2021, Poland received EUR 210 billion and paid just EUR 69 billion to the EU budget, PIE said in its weekly bulletin on Thursday, quoting Finance Ministry data.“

    https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/polands-receipts-from-eu-budget-far-outweigh-payments-says-think-tank-31274

    Meanwhile its population is shrinking and ageing due to low birth rates and migration


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Poland

    The idea it is going to magically emerge from this to be the most powerful nation in Europe, or an intergalactic hyper nuclear warrior empire or whatever, is just fucking farcical. What a stupid thread. Next

    On the contrary, there is an economic miracle in large part due to the wonderousness of EU funding.
  • Options

    Incidentally, in things-could-get-messier news, it looks as though Iran and Azerbaijan might be getting ready for a little conflict. The Azerbaijanian embassy in Tehran was attacked on Friday, and a security guard killed, and it looks as though the Azeris are pulling out all of their embassy staff.

    Azerbaijan is also a key Turkish ally. Erdogan's party wants a "land corridor" with Azerbaijan, to bypass Armenia.
  • Options
    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,540
    Brighton have sold many of their top players (Bissouma, White, Cucurella, Burn, Trossard) and can still beat Liverpool and improve their league position. Impressive - a well-run club.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2023

    Brighton have sold many of their top players (Bissouma, White, Cucurella, Burn, Trossard) and can still beat Liverpool and improve their league position. Impressive - a well-run club.

    Also helps if your owner also owns the world best football analytics firm.....
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,077

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    Interesting that this "major Pfizer executive" is totally unfindable on the Internet.

    I suppose the brain-dead will take that as proof of a cover-up ...
    Yes. Totally impossible to find on the internet


    There is plenty of evidence this guy really exists, unless boston consulting group is some fake organisation....(its not its a 60 year old company, with 25000 employees).

    The Near-Term Outlook for COVID-19 Therapeutic Treatments
    MAY 08, 2020
    By Ciarán Lawlor, Ahad Wahid, MD, Jordon Walker, and Josh Kellar

    https://www.bcg.com/publications/2020/outlook-for-covid-19-therapeutic-treatments

    His photo is at the bottom of the paper.

    Doesn't mean he wasn't bullshitting / exaggerating to his date, but he isn't some false flag PV actor.
    It is incredible, to me, that apparently sane people are so eager to believe that he is a fake. Deluded fools that they are

    Obviously he’s real. And, equally obvious, there have been fairly lame attempts to hide him on the internet (taking down his LinkedIn page for example) - presumably this is him doing it himself, or his concerned colleagues/friends/family. And I can empathise with their concern

    What he admits/claims in that video - even if it WAS bullshit to impress a date - is enough to destroy a career and a life

    I feel for him. He did something stupid. But he said what he said and now it is out there

    For me the most interesting part is the casual acceptance that Covid almost certainly came from the lab. “Like, of course it did, we all know that.” He’s not even trying to impress at that point. It is his honest opinion as a Pfizer insider (seconded from BCG, it seems)
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    I hate to be the anti-Polish party-pooper, but this entire thread is bollocks

    Poland is economically growing mainly because is is receiving huge EU subsidies. There is no amazing economic miracle


    “In 2004-2021, Poland received EUR 210 billion and paid just EUR 69 billion to the EU budget, PIE said in its weekly bulletin on Thursday, quoting Finance Ministry data.“

    https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/polands-receipts-from-eu-budget-far-outweigh-payments-says-think-tank-31274

    Meanwhile its population is shrinking and ageing due to low birth rates and migration


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Poland

    The idea it is going to magically emerge from this to be the most powerful nation in Europe, or an intergalactic hyper nuclear warrior empire or whatever, is just fucking farcical. What a stupid thread. Next

    On the contrary, there is an economic miracle in large part due to the wonderousness of EU funding.
    Poland is planning on total government spending in 2023 of €140 billion or so. Net EU contribution will be something like €10 billion.

    So ~7% of government spending.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,186
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    I hate to be the anti-Polish party-pooper, but this entire thread is bollocks

    Poland is economically growing mainly because is is receiving huge EU subsidies. There is no amazing economic miracle


    “In 2004-2021, Poland received EUR 210 billion and paid just EUR 69 billion to the EU budget, PIE said in its weekly bulletin on Thursday, quoting Finance Ministry data.“

    https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/polands-receipts-from-eu-budget-far-outweigh-payments-says-think-tank-31274

    Meanwhile its population is shrinking and ageing due to low birth rates and migration


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Poland

    The idea it is going to magically emerge from this to be the most powerful nation in Europe, or an intergalactic hyper nuclear warrior empire or whatever, is just fucking farcical. What a stupid thread. Next

    On the contrary, there is an economic miracle in large part due to the wonderousness of EU funding.
    I was just wondering whether the vast subsidies (including, of course, the currency reform) that West Germany provided to the old DDR was somehow not creating an 'economic miracle.'

    Spending money is a big part of creating wealth, as Adam Smith and JM Keynes (and indeed Milton Friedman) would have noted.

    However, it isn't enough on its own, or Africa and especially Nigeria would be wealthy. You have to have a strong economy and society underpinning it to share it round rather than end up in the back pocket of whatever random criminal is running the country, and that's what Poland has had.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    edited January 2023

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    Interesting that this "major Pfizer executive" is totally unfindable on the Internet.

    I suppose the brain-dead will take that as proof of a cover-up ...
    Yes. Totally impossible to find on the internet


    There is plenty of evidence this guy really exists, unless boston consulting group is some fake organisation....(its not its a 60 year old company, with 25000 employees).

    The Near-Term Outlook for COVID-19 Therapeutic Treatments
    MAY 08, 2020
    By Ciarán Lawlor, Ahad Wahid, MD, Jordon Walker, and Josh Kellar

    https://www.bcg.com/publications/2020/outlook-for-covid-19-therapeutic-treatments

    His photo is at the bottom of the paper.

    Doesn't mean he wasn't bullshitting / exaggerating to his date, but he isn't some false flag PV actor.
    It does neatly demonstrate that his role in Pfizer mRNA vaccine science is pretty tangential, given he was writing such reports for BCG in 2020.

    And fits in with the tweets I posted upthread.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,077
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    I hate to be the anti-Polish party-pooper, but this entire thread is bollocks

    Poland is economically growing mainly because is is receiving huge EU subsidies. There is no amazing economic miracle


    “In 2004-2021, Poland received EUR 210 billion and paid just EUR 69 billion to the EU budget, PIE said in its weekly bulletin on Thursday, quoting Finance Ministry data.“

    https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/polands-receipts-from-eu-budget-far-outweigh-payments-says-think-tank-31274

    Meanwhile its population is shrinking and ageing due to low birth rates and migration


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Poland

    The idea it is going to magically emerge from this to be the most powerful nation in Europe, or an intergalactic hyper nuclear warrior empire or whatever, is just fucking farcical. What a stupid thread. Next

    On the contrary, there is an economic miracle in large part due to the wonderousness of EU funding.
    I was just wondering whether the vast subsidies (including, of course, the currency reform) that West Germany provided to the old DDR was somehow not creating an 'economic miracle.'

    Spending money is a big part of creating wealth, as Adam Smith and JM Keynes (and indeed Milton Friedman) would have noted.

    However, it isn't enough on its own, or Africa and especially Nigeria would be wealthy. You have to have a strong economy and society underpinning it to share it round rather than end up in the back pocket of whatever random criminal is running the country, and that's what Poland has had.
    Sure. But what Poland has achieved is nothing compared to what, say, Singapore, Taiwan or South Korea achieved. They did not have a beneficent EU handing them sixty billion dollars every few years

    They bootstrapped themselves into serious prosperity. These countries were peasant-level poor at the end of WW2

    Incredible
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,046

    Why would the UK need to 'cope' with Poland gaining influence on the continent? We would be blessed not to have any continental entanglements at all - each and every time we get involved in a continental territorial conflict, we end up the poorer for it; this time is no exception. We need to learn to let them get on with it and mind our own fucking business.

    As for who is going to pay for Ukraine's reconstruction, having contributed handsomely to its destruction, I am not looking forward to our share of the bill for putting it all back up again. Russia should pay most of it but I don't see that happening unless they hold the territory that is being repaired.

    A post war Ukraine of any stability will represent an incredible investment opportunity - vast returns possible as part of rebuilding country and from it “levelling up” with the rest of Europe.
    I would dust down 'heavy lifting', but I'd be unsure of which part of this is straining its biceps the most.
    You have a country, poor in development, but rich in people and with lots of education.

    Historically that is a goldmine to invest in. Providing corruption can be reined in.

    A zillion examples of that - Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Poland, Bulgaria, to name but a few.
    I'm not going to put down the Ukrainians.

    However, the US now (if not before) as good as owns them, by virtue of all their military aid being loans. Ukraine must have racked up several times its yearly budget in US military equipment now. The US will award reconstruction contracts, primarily to US companies, and recalling the reconstruction of Iraq, being a staunch ally did not get you first dibs even on what was left.
    That won't be much of an issue for them, particularly compared to the horrors Russia would commit, and are committing.
    I have never suggested it would be. For most Ukrainians, it's their preferred choice. I am saying that for us, like Iraq, the conflict is financially deleterious and will continue to be so in its aftermath.
    Iraq and I presume you mean the second gulf war is a bad comparison. The first gulf war and the expulsion of Iraq from Kuwait is a better example for the current war.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,413
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    Interesting that this "major Pfizer executive" is totally unfindable on the Internet.

    I suppose the brain-dead will take that as proof of a cover-up ...
    Yes. Totally impossible to find on the internet


    There is plenty of evidence this guy really exists, unless boston consulting group is some fake organisation....(its not its a 60 year old company, with 25000 employees).

    The Near-Term Outlook for COVID-19 Therapeutic Treatments
    MAY 08, 2020
    By Ciarán Lawlor, Ahad Wahid, MD, Jordon Walker, and Josh Kellar

    https://www.bcg.com/publications/2020/outlook-for-covid-19-therapeutic-treatments

    His photo is at the bottom of the paper.

    Doesn't mean he wasn't bullshitting / exaggerating to his date, but he isn't some false flag PV actor.
    It is incredible, to me, that apparently sane people are so eager to believe that he is a fake. Deluded fools that they are

    Obviously he’s real. And, equally obvious, there have been fairly lame attempts to hide him on the internet (taking down his LinkedIn page for example) - presumably this is him doing it himself, or his concerned colleagues/friends/family. And I can empathise with their concern

    What he admits/claims in that video - even if it WAS bullshit to impress a date - is enough to destroy a career and a life

    I feel for him. He did something stupid. But he said what he said and now it is out there

    For me the most interesting part is the casual acceptance that Covid almost certainly came from the lab. “Like, of course it did, we all know that.” He’s not even trying to impress at that point. It is his honest opinion as a Pfizer insider (seconded from BCG, it seems)
    The argument against the lab leak theory here comes from a misplaced sense of 'insiderism' - an urge to defend the US, to hold the line of 'The West', partly because of the psychological impact of acknowledging that global US-power is a force for ill would be too devastating.

    Imagine if this had been a Russian lab, doing research that had been banned as unsafe in Russia, and I argued that there was no firm evidence for lab leak, and it was probably the wet market. The ordure that would be heaped on me every time I made such a claim would run to pages.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,263
    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    I hate to be the anti-Polish party-pooper, but this entire thread is bollocks

    Poland is economically growing mainly because is is receiving huge EU subsidies. There is no amazing economic miracle


    “In 2004-2021, Poland received EUR 210 billion and paid just EUR 69 billion to the EU budget, PIE said in its weekly bulletin on Thursday, quoting Finance Ministry data.“

    https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/polands-receipts-from-eu-budget-far-outweigh-payments-says-think-tank-31274

    Meanwhile its population is shrinking and ageing due to low birth rates and migration


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Poland

    The idea it is going to magically emerge from this to be the most powerful nation in Europe, or an intergalactic hyper nuclear warrior empire or whatever, is just fucking farcical. What a stupid thread. Next

    On the contrary, there is an economic miracle in large part due to the wonderousness of EU funding.
    I was just wondering whether the vast subsidies (including, of course, the currency reform) that West Germany provided to the old DDR was somehow not creating an 'economic miracle.'

    Spending money is a big part of creating wealth, as Adam Smith and JM Keynes (and indeed Milton Friedman) would have noted.

    However, it isn't enough on its own, or Africa and especially Nigeria would be wealthy. You have to have a strong economy and society underpinning it to share it round rather than end up in the back pocket of whatever random criminal is running the country, and that's what Poland has had.
    Sure. But what Poland has achieved is nothing compared to what, say, Singapore, Taiwan or South Korea achieved. They did not have a beneficent EU handing them sixty billion dollars every few years

    They bootstrapped themselves into serious prosperity. These countries were peasant-level poor at the end of WW2

    Incredible
    But a false comparison.
  • Options
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    Interesting that this "major Pfizer executive" is totally unfindable on the Internet.

    I suppose the brain-dead will take that as proof of a cover-up ...
    Yes. Totally impossible to find on the internet


    There is plenty of evidence this guy really exists, unless boston consulting group is some fake organisation....(its not its a 60 year old company, with 25000 employees).

    The Near-Term Outlook for COVID-19 Therapeutic Treatments
    MAY 08, 2020
    By Ciarán Lawlor, Ahad Wahid, MD, Jordon Walker, and Josh Kellar

    https://www.bcg.com/publications/2020/outlook-for-covid-19-therapeutic-treatments

    His photo is at the bottom of the paper.

    Doesn't mean he wasn't bullshitting / exaggerating to his date, but he isn't some false flag PV actor.
    It is incredible, to me, that apparently sane people are so eager to believe that he is a fake. Deluded fools that they are

    Obviously he’s real. And, equally obvious, there have been fairly lame attempts to hide him on the internet (taking down his LinkedIn page for example) - presumably this is him doing it himself, or his concerned colleagues/friends/family. And I can empathise with their concern

    What he admits/claims in that video - even if it WAS bullshit to impress a date - is enough to destroy a career and a life

    I feel for him. He did something stupid. But he said what he said and now it is out there

    For me the most interesting part is the casual acceptance that Covid almost certainly came from the lab. “Like, of course it did, we all know that.” He’s not even trying to impress at that point. It is his honest opinion as a Pfizer insider (seconded from BCG, it seems)
    Well, PV / James O'Keefe in the past got done for making shit up. You have to be careful in that their videos are carefully edited, the roles of people they snare aren't necessarily quite as important as they spin it and obviously PV have an ideological bent.

    I do find it slightly odd that the normal repost is that they use deceptive practices to get this undercover films. Isn't that what every investigative journalist does? The lady who investigated the dog breeding for Panorama last Monday pretended to be somebody she wasn't for months in order to get access and film the breeders.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,413

    Why would the UK need to 'cope' with Poland gaining influence on the continent? We would be blessed not to have any continental entanglements at all - each and every time we get involved in a continental territorial conflict, we end up the poorer for it; this time is no exception. We need to learn to let them get on with it and mind our own fucking business.

    As for who is going to pay for Ukraine's reconstruction, having contributed handsomely to its destruction, I am not looking forward to our share of the bill for putting it all back up again. Russia should pay most of it but I don't see that happening unless they hold the territory that is being repaired.

    A post war Ukraine of any stability will represent an incredible investment opportunity - vast returns possible as part of rebuilding country and from it “levelling up” with the rest of Europe.
    I would dust down 'heavy lifting', but I'd be unsure of which part of this is straining its biceps the most.
    You have a country, poor in development, but rich in people and with lots of education.

    Historically that is a goldmine to invest in. Providing corruption can be reined in.

    A zillion examples of that - Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Poland, Bulgaria, to name but a few.
    I'm not going to put down the Ukrainians.

    However, the US now (if not before) as good as owns them, by virtue of all their military aid being loans. Ukraine must have racked up several times its yearly budget in US military equipment now. The US will award reconstruction contracts, primarily to US companies, and recalling the reconstruction of Iraq, being a staunch ally did not get you first dibs even on what was left.
    That won't be much of an issue for them, particularly compared to the horrors Russia would commit, and are committing.
    I have never suggested it would be. For most Ukrainians, it's their preferred choice. I am saying that for us, like Iraq, the conflict is financially deleterious and will continue to be so in its aftermath.
    Iraq and I presume you mean the second gulf war is a bad comparison. The first gulf war and the expulsion of Iraq from Kuwait is a better example for the current war.
    I don't remember much about the aftermath of Gulf war 1, so I'll take your word for it.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    Interesting that this "major Pfizer executive" is totally unfindable on the Internet.

    I suppose the brain-dead will take that as proof of a cover-up ...
    Yes. Totally impossible to find on the internet


    There is plenty of evidence this guy really exists, unless boston consulting group is some fake organisation....(its not its a 60 year old company, with 25000 employees).

    The Near-Term Outlook for COVID-19 Therapeutic Treatments
    MAY 08, 2020
    By Ciarán Lawlor, Ahad Wahid, MD, Jordon Walker, and Josh Kellar

    https://www.bcg.com/publications/2020/outlook-for-covid-19-therapeutic-treatments

    His photo is at the bottom of the paper.

    Doesn't mean he wasn't bullshitting / exaggerating to his date, but he isn't some false flag PV actor.
    It does neatly demonstrate that his role in Pfizer mRNA vaccine science is pretty tangential, given he was writing such reports for BCG in 2020.

    And fits in with the tweets I posted upthread.
    I haven't followed this story 100%, but I don't think PV claimed he was actually doing the mRNA research, and that I believe he is on secondment from BCG to Pfizer as a (management) consultant. Rather, I think its a bit of a classic PV tactic, where they don't make it clear what his job title actually means and they leave it to the viewer to wrongly infer things.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
    edited January 2023

    kle4 said:


    It is, but in his defence a large chunk of Labour believed that, or pretended to believe it, during the Corbyn years, and it wasn't actually unheard of even before then to hear people claim New Labour won in 1997 by becoming the Tories, silly though that might be.

    HYUFD has a long history of pretending to know about Labour Party leaders, internal politics and history when he knows very little. He's been shown up so many times, it is embarrassing he keeps posting this drivel.

    Blair was closer to a 19th century Liberal PM like Palmerston than he was to the other Labour PMs of the 20th century or indeed Gordon Brown who succeeded him in the 21st
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,022
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Interesting, but no. Poland is not gonna be a regional superpower

    It depends how you define that.
    Militarily, it will very probably be more powerful than all its near neighbours in the near term. Whether it can sustain that depends upon what happens with its economy, and perhaps on how close its relationship with postwar Ukraine.
    Ukraine shouldn’t join the EU… just reform the Commonwealth and then it could be a successor state…
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,022

    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    Fairly evil really. They should be banned from having their drugs prescribed by the NHS.
    Because preventing access to safe and efficacious medicine would benefit the British people how, precisely?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,077

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    Interesting that this "major Pfizer executive" is totally unfindable on the Internet.

    I suppose the brain-dead will take that as proof of a cover-up ...
    Yes. Totally impossible to find on the internet


    There is plenty of evidence this guy really exists, unless boston consulting group is some fake organisation....(its not its a 60 year old company, with 25000 employees).

    The Near-Term Outlook for COVID-19 Therapeutic Treatments
    MAY 08, 2020
    By Ciarán Lawlor, Ahad Wahid, MD, Jordon Walker, and Josh Kellar

    https://www.bcg.com/publications/2020/outlook-for-covid-19-therapeutic-treatments

    His photo is at the bottom of the paper.

    Doesn't mean he wasn't bullshitting / exaggerating to his date, but he isn't some false flag PV actor.
    It is incredible, to me, that apparently sane people are so eager to believe that he is a fake. Deluded fools that they are

    Obviously he’s real. And, equally obvious, there have been fairly lame attempts to hide him on the internet (taking down his LinkedIn page for example) - presumably this is him doing it himself, or his concerned colleagues/friends/family. And I can empathise with their concern

    What he admits/claims in that video - even if it WAS bullshit to impress a date - is enough to destroy a career and a life

    I feel for him. He did something stupid. But he said what he said and now it is out there

    For me the most interesting part is the casual acceptance that Covid almost certainly came from the lab. “Like, of course it did, we all know that.” He’s not even trying to impress at that point. It is his honest opinion as a Pfizer insider (seconded from BCG, it seems)
    Well, PV / James O'Keefe in the past got done for making shit up. You have to be careful in that their videos are carefully edited, the roles of people they snare aren't necessarily quite as important as they spin it and obviously PV have an ideological bent.

    I do find it slightly odd that the normal repost is that they use deceptive practices to get this undercover films. Isn't that what every investigative journalist does? The lady who investigated the dog breeding for Panorama last Monday pretended to be somebody she wasn't for months in order to get access and film the breeders.
    This is not fake

    Look at his reaction when he realises that 1. He has been filmed and 2. He has fucked Pfizer snd 3. His career is likely over

    i feel for him. But this is not fakery or clever editing


    https://twitter.com/thenancypeelosi/status/1618886446206840832?s=61&t=byfcuBUVTOTx3bUpWKef4g
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2023
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    Interesting that this "major Pfizer executive" is totally unfindable on the Internet.

    I suppose the brain-dead will take that as proof of a cover-up ...
    Yes. Totally impossible to find on the internet


    There is plenty of evidence this guy really exists, unless boston consulting group is some fake organisation....(its not its a 60 year old company, with 25000 employees).

    The Near-Term Outlook for COVID-19 Therapeutic Treatments
    MAY 08, 2020
    By Ciarán Lawlor, Ahad Wahid, MD, Jordon Walker, and Josh Kellar

    https://www.bcg.com/publications/2020/outlook-for-covid-19-therapeutic-treatments

    His photo is at the bottom of the paper.

    Doesn't mean he wasn't bullshitting / exaggerating to his date, but he isn't some false flag PV actor.
    It is incredible, to me, that apparently sane people are so eager to believe that he is a fake. Deluded fools that they are

    Obviously he’s real. And, equally obvious, there have been fairly lame attempts to hide him on the internet (taking down his LinkedIn page for example) - presumably this is him doing it himself, or his concerned colleagues/friends/family. And I can empathise with their concern

    What he admits/claims in that video - even if it WAS bullshit to impress a date - is enough to destroy a career and a life

    I feel for him. He did something stupid. But he said what he said and now it is out there

    For me the most interesting part is the casual acceptance that Covid almost certainly came from the lab. “Like, of course it did, we all know that.” He’s not even trying to impress at that point. It is his honest opinion as a Pfizer insider (seconded from BCG, it seems)
    Well, PV / James O'Keefe in the past got done for making shit up. You have to be careful in that their videos are carefully edited, the roles of people they snare aren't necessarily quite as important as they spin it and obviously PV have an ideological bent.

    I do find it slightly odd that the normal repost is that they use deceptive practices to get this undercover films. Isn't that what every investigative journalist does? The lady who investigated the dog breeding for Panorama last Monday pretended to be somebody she wasn't for months in order to get access and film the breeders.
    This is not fake

    Look at his reaction when he realises that 1. He has been filmed and 2. He has fucked Pfizer snd 3. His career is likely over

    i feel for him. But this is not fakery or clever editing


    https://twitter.com/thenancypeelosi/status/1618886446206840832?s=61&t=byfcuBUVTOTx3bUpWKef4g
    Well you do have to be careful if that they have got caught in the past where they will ask a question along the lines of hypothetically what would happen if......and they push this line for ages. And eventually the person plays ball, and they cut out the pretext, so it sounds like the person has just started spilling the beans on something, when it only came about because somebody was giving the come on and kept prompting them to go on just imagine if.....sucks on straw suggestively....
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,331
    edited January 2023
    IanB2 said:



    It was such a sad, grim, miserable place, with people trying to live their lives with very few of the freedoms we take for granted. No food in the shops, and surrounded by patently absurd state propaganda. It’s why I get annoyed when the likes of ex-MP Nick of this parish are so blasé about their communist-supporting past.

    Well, yes - as I've often said, when I supported them it was the Euro-communist version - the pro-democracy, anti-dictatorship variant championed by Berlinguer in Italy and Hermannson in Sweden. It's more than 50 years ago now, but it was a perfectly reasonable choice at the time, and it's a bit bizarre that it bothers you now. It bore as much relationship to the Romanian dictatorship as President Kennedy did to tinpot autocrats in Latin America.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,413

    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    Fairly evil really. They should be banned from having their drugs prescribed by the NHS.
    Because preventing access to safe and efficacious medicine would benefit the British people how, precisely?
    I think there are good alternatives to Pfizer drugs that would probably cost a great deal less. I found their taking of vast profits on their covid jab distasteful already.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973

    Why would the UK need to 'cope' with Poland gaining influence on the continent? We would be blessed not to have any continental entanglements at all - each and every time we get involved in a continental territorial conflict, we end up the poorer for it; this time is no exception. We need to learn to let them get on with it and mind our own fucking business.

    As for who is going to pay for Ukraine's reconstruction, having contributed handsomely to its destruction, I am not looking forward to our share of the bill for putting it all back up again. Russia should pay most of it but I don't see that happening unless they hold the territory that is being repaired.

    A post war Ukraine of any stability will represent an incredible investment opportunity - vast returns possible as part of rebuilding country and from it “levelling up” with the rest of Europe.
    I would dust down 'heavy lifting', but I'd be unsure of which part of this is straining its biceps the most.
    You have a country, poor in development, but rich in people and with lots of education.

    Historically that is a goldmine to invest in. Providing corruption can be reined in.

    A zillion examples of that - Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Poland, Bulgaria, to name but a few.
    I'm not going to put down the Ukrainians.

    However, the US now (if not before) as good as owns them, by virtue of all their military aid being loans. Ukraine must have racked up several times its yearly budget in US military equipment now. The US will award reconstruction contracts, primarily to US companies, and recalling the reconstruction of Iraq, being a staunch ally did not get you first dibs even on what was left.
    That won't be much of an issue for them, particularly compared to the horrors Russia would commit, and are committing.
    I have never suggested it would be. For most Ukrainians, it's their preferred choice. I am saying that for us, like Iraq, the conflict is financially deleterious and will continue to be so in its aftermath.
    Disclaimer: this is not a pleasant way to look at things from a moral viewpoint:

    At the moment, the war is giving the west rewards far in excess of what we are spending. One of the two big powers we've spent countless trillions over decades to counter, is being worn down, and potentially defeated, for around $50 billion (and that's a maximum figure via rather creative accounting).

    The US spent about $2 trillion on the Iraq war alone, and lost thousands of soldiers and contractors.

    The bang-for-buck that the US and west are getting from this war is incredible 'value'. Not that we wanted it, but it is turning the feared Russian army into very much a third-tier military, whose only unusual power is nukes.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
    Poland will undoubtedly be the leading force in Eastern Europe against Russia as the article suggests, Germany having little interest in the role and Poland being far more supportive of Ukraine.

    However the UK has never taken a leading role in Eastern Europe, it has been part of the Holy Roman Empire, the Austro Hungarian Empire and fought over by them, the Ottoman Empire and Turks and Russians and part of the Prussian and then German Empires too. In WW1 it was again divided between the Russians, Germans and Austro Hungarians and in WW2 by the Nazis and Soviet Union (who then took over most of it until the end of the Cold War).

    The UK's European focus has always been on containing the power of Spain and the France and ultimately Germany ie western Europe. Eastern Europe has not been a major concern for it
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187
    edited January 2023
    A very interesting and informative header. Thank you Viewcode. Not sure about it being a 'bubbling-under' superpower but Poland is a major European nation in anybody's book. I don't know it but I did work in Warsaw back in the Iron Curtain days. Did a project at Bank Handlowy. I remember having to supposedly lead meetings via a translator with groups of their employees, me in that position purely because I was from the West, getting deferred to despite not really knowing what I was talking about, wondering what these people were really thinking about it all. Quite a vivid memory actually. Pleasant because of how kind everyone was to me. Unpleasant because I felt a fraud. The other big memory - smell being the sense that specialises in time travel - is the preponderance of cabbage.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,022
    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    Interesting that this "major Pfizer executive" is totally unfindable on the Internet.

    I suppose the brain-dead will take that as proof of a cover-up ...
    Yes. Totally impossible to find on the internet


    Director is a comparative junior role at Pfizer

    CEO > President > EVP > SVP > VP > Senior Director > Director

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,186
    HYUFD said:

    Poland will undoubtedly be the leading force in Eastern Europe against Russia as the article suggests, Germany having little interest in the role and Poland being far more supportive of Ukraine.

    However the UK has never taken a leading role in Eastern Europe, it has been part of the Holy Roman Empire, the Austro Hungarian Empire and fought over by them, the Ottoman Empire and Turks and Russians and part of the Prussian and then German Empires too. In WW1 it was again divided between the Russians, Germans and Austro Hungarians and in WW2 by the Nazis and Soviet Union (who then took over most of it until the end of the Cold War).

    The UK's European focus has always been on containing the power of Spain and the France and ultimately Germany ie western Europe. Eastern Europe has not been a major concern for it

    Disraeli would actually be horrified at this comment, given the amount of time he spent on the 'Eastern Question.'

    Salisbury wouldn't be much better pleased, nor would Lloyd George. As for Neville Chamberlain...

    Palmerston would also be slightly surprised given he became PM during the Crimean War.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,077

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    If we wanna talk serious, how about this Project Veritas takedown of a major Pfizer executive, who, inter alia, says Yeah of course it came from the lab and Yeah we are still mutating the virus to develop new vaccines but DON’T TELL ANYONE

    His explosive reaction at the end as he realises he has spilled the beans to the world, and by the by self destructed his own career is quite intense


    https://twitter.com/jamesokeefeiii/status/1619128293684580352?s=61&t=gYB78yAx9sKbGxkBWXXUOVy3Q3U5C3YUSIi6hHVJIVs


    “Like, it makes no sense that the virus popped out of nowhere”

    NO FUCKING KIDDING, SHERLOCK

    Interesting that this "major Pfizer executive" is totally unfindable on the Internet.

    I suppose the brain-dead will take that as proof of a cover-up ...
    Yes. Totally impossible to find on the internet


    There is plenty of evidence this guy really exists, unless boston consulting group is some fake organisation....(its not its a 60 year old company, with 25000 employees).

    The Near-Term Outlook for COVID-19 Therapeutic Treatments
    MAY 08, 2020
    By Ciarán Lawlor, Ahad Wahid, MD, Jordon Walker, and Josh Kellar

    https://www.bcg.com/publications/2020/outlook-for-covid-19-therapeutic-treatments

    His photo is at the bottom of the paper.

    Doesn't mean he wasn't bullshitting / exaggerating to his date, but he isn't some false flag PV actor.
    It is incredible, to me, that apparently sane people are so eager to believe that he is a fake. Deluded fools that they are

    Obviously he’s real. And, equally obvious, there have been fairly lame attempts to hide him on the internet (taking down his LinkedIn page for example) - presumably this is him doing it himself, or his concerned colleagues/friends/family. And I can empathise with their concern

    What he admits/claims in that video - even if it WAS bullshit to impress a date - is enough to destroy a career and a life

    I feel for him. He did something stupid. But he said what he said and now it is out there

    For me the most interesting part is the casual acceptance that Covid almost certainly came from the lab. “Like, of course it did, we all know that.” He’s not even trying to impress at that point. It is his honest opinion as a Pfizer insider (seconded from BCG, it seems)
    Well, PV / James O'Keefe in the past got done for making shit up. You have to be careful in that their videos are carefully edited, the roles of people they snare aren't necessarily quite as important as they spin it and obviously PV have an ideological bent.

    I do find it slightly odd that the normal repost is that they use deceptive practices to get this undercover films. Isn't that what every investigative journalist does? The lady who investigated the dog breeding for Panorama last Monday pretended to be somebody she wasn't for months in order to get access and film the breeders.
    This is not fake

    Look at his reaction when he realises that 1. He has been filmed and 2. He has fucked Pfizer snd 3. His career is likely over

    i feel for him. But this is not fakery or clever editing


    https://twitter.com/thenancypeelosi/status/1618886446206840832?s=61&t=byfcuBUVTOTx3bUpWKef4g
    Well you do have to be careful if that they have got caught in the past where they will ask a question along the lines of hypothetically what would happen if......and they push this line for ages. And eventually the person plays ball and they cut out the pretext.
    Yes, I agree. But the attempt to pretend this guy does not exist and the panicky response from Pfizer is not a good look



  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973

    IanB2 said:



    It was such a sad, grim, miserable place, with people trying to live their lives with very few of the freedoms we take for granted. No food in the shops, and surrounded by patently absurd state propaganda. It’s why I get annoyed when the likes of ex-MP Nick of this parish are so blasé about their communist-supporting past.

    Well, yes - as I've often said, when I supported them it was the Euro-communist version - the pro-democracy, anti-dictatorship variant championed by Berlinguer in Italy and Hermannson in Sweden. It's more than 50 years ago now, but it was a perfectly reasonable choice at the time, and it's a bit bizarre that it bothers you now. It bore as much relationship to the Romanian dictatorship as President Kennedy did to tinpot autocrats in Latin America.
    I see that distinction as similar to the "I was an Italian fascist, not a Nazi!"

    IMV the idea that there is a form of Communism that is soft, cuddly and will work is sadly an foolish one, and one that is often used to hide the evils of red-in-tooth-and-claw communism that has always been tried.

    Didn't someone in the media call themselves a 'liberal communist' or somesuch?
This discussion has been closed.