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  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Dr. Prasannan, good to see you on. You don't happen to know an Indian language or two, do you*?

    *Except English. I know that one myself.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    It's surreal listening to the political class analyzing Ukip on the basis of the BBC version of reality being true when the key driver is the BBC version of reality not being true.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Nonsense, Mr. Jones. The BBC is entirely correct. The euro is a marvellous success, everybody loves Brussels and Britain is becoming like the Sahara due to pesky global warming.
  • Dr. Prasannan, good to see you on. You don't happen to know an Indian language or two, do you*?

    *Except English. I know that one myself.

    Mr Dancer, my mother('s) tongue is Malayalam, from southern India. Theoretically I should be bilingual, but I consider English my first language. But I am familiar with Indian language families and their various alphabets in use today.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Splendid. I'm not sure if I'll use it or not, but could you give me an Indian version of "The Golden Tigers", please?
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited January 2014
    Pulpstar said:


    "It is based on your vigorous defence of Lord Rennard in the media, which indicates to me a lack of understanding of women's issues."

    Oh Crikey oh riley.

    Yes, forget due process. Just let Commissar Harman and her band of flying monkeys pronounce the inevitable guilty verdicts...

  • Splendid. I'm not sure if I'll use it or not, but could you give me an Indian version of "The Golden Tigers", please?

    Hindi is the most widely spoken language in India, I guess you could start there:

    "Sunaharā bāgha"
    सुनहरा बाघ

    BTW I cheated most foully by using Google Translate :)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    You bounder!

    Cheers, nevertheless. Often I translate terms if the origin is not 'English'. Not sure if I will in this instance or not.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    saddened said:



    Right. Because skilled intelligence operators that know their way around computers can never access things other than what they're officially allowed to right? It's not like he has already released documents that were way above his intelligence level, or that the US Government has not been able to determine what he did or did not access...

    Some people have their heads so far in the sand here. This used to be a country that cared about our rights and liberties...
    They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
    - Benjamin Franklin, 1755.
    Indeed. The problem is we have such an ossified political system in this country we can't do anything about it. We have three main parties we can vote for, all of which are completely out of contact with their grass roots. There are barely any primaries where you can choose between members of one party, and where they occasionally exist, they never voice any political views. Parliament is corrupted by the patronage of the executive, meaning enforced centralisation to the party leadership, and independent views can never raise their head, lest they face career suicide.

    The only thing I can think of is to vote for minority parties to punish the major ones. Ideally, they would be minority parties that support our most ancient and hard won rights. However, even if they don't, it's the best thing to do to scare the major parties out of their current complacency.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    Nonsense, Mr. Jones. The BBC is entirely correct. The euro is a marvellous success, everybody loves Brussels and Britain is becoming like the Sahara due to pesky global warming.

    zactly zo
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited January 2014
    @Socrates - But almost no-one cares about surveillance, so it's hardly a problem of the parties being out of touch with the grass roots, or with anyone else.

    Maybe people should care, but they don't. The proof? Just look at their behaviour:

    - They, completely voluntarily, stick details of the private lives all over Facebook, so Big Brother knows exactly what they've been doing and with whom;
    - They, completely voluntarily, sign up to Tesco Clubcards and Nectar cards, so Big Brother knows about every last item they buy in their weekly shop;
    - They, completely voluntarily, register their Oyster Cards, so Big Brother knows about every journey they make on public transport in London;
    - They, complately voluntarily, use GMail and sign up to Google services, so their surfing and emails are scanned;
    - They moan about all sorts of things, but not about number-plate recognition cameras, which have precisely zero political significance.

    No doubt you feel strongly about all these things, but 90+% of the population couldn't give a damn. The political parties are very much in touch on that score.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    RodCrosby said:

    It's now a 'crime' to be a lawyer and do your best for your client, according to this Green muppet...
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25931677

    She sounds like a complete jerk.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410

    @Socrates - But almost no-one cares about surveillance, so it's hardly a problem of the parties being out of touch with the grass roots, or with anyone else.

    Maybe people should care, but they don't. The proof? Just look at their behaviour:

    - They, completely voluntarily, stick details of the private lives all over Facebook, so Big Brother knows exactly what they've been doing and with whom;
    - They, completely voluntarily, sign up to Tesco Clubcards and Nectar cards, so Big Brother knows about every last item they buy in their weekly shop;
    - They, completely voluntarily, register their Oyster Cards, so Big Brother knows about every journey they make on public transport in London;
    - They, complately voluntarily, use GMail and sign up to Google services, so their surfing and emails are scanned;
    - They moan about all sorts of things, but not about number-plate recognition cameras, which have precisely zero political significance.

    No doubt you feel strongly about all these things, but 90+% of the population couldn't give a damn. The political parties are very much in touch on that score.

    The government is going to know that I like to play Angry Birds at the moment...
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    We have a winter storm just about to hit us.

    This is what local TV news loves and lives for - the ABC affiliate has suspended regular programming and has wall to wall "severe storm team 2 Action News" coverage with 15 camera crews and reporter teams out and about, and the Fox affiliate with their 'storm team' and VIPIR radar, has a dozen. Local TV news firmly believes that serious weather exists to bring us them.

    3 years ago almost to the day we had snowmageddon, and I was stuck in my house for 4 days.

    So far it looks like it's mostly south, north and west of the metro area.

    All the reporters are out with their rulers "looks like almost 1/2 an inch", standing on back porches reporting 1/8 inch dustings, writing 'snow' on the accumulation on a car windshield etc.

    The real danger is ice tomorrow as temperatures drop into the teens tonight.

    Schools and most offices have already closed and will be closed tomorrow.

    We simply are not equipped to deal with this for obvious reasons.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Hugh said:

    ***FAR RIGHT KLAXON***

    Don't try to reason with a raving CyberKipper or get them to elaborate on their views, you get the same sensation quicker from banging your head repeatedly against the nearest wall.

    Blimey UKip are setting the terms of debate on here as well as in real life! We lead, the others follow
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    @Socrates - But almost no-one cares about surveillance, so it's hardly a problem of the parties being out of touch with the grass roots, or with anyone else.

    Maybe people should care, but they don't. The proof? Just look at their behaviour:

    - They, completely voluntarily, stick details of the private lives all over Facebook, so Big Brother knows exactly what they've been doing and with whom;
    - They, completely voluntarily, sign up to Tesco Clubcards and Nectar cards, so Big Brother knows about every last item they buy in their weekly shop;
    - They, completely voluntarily, register their Oyster Cards, so Big Brother knows about every journey they make on public transport in London;
    - They, complately voluntarily, use GMail and sign up to Google services, so their surfing and emails are scanned;
    - They moan about all sorts of things, but not about number-plate recognition cameras, which have precisely zero political significance.

    No doubt you feel strongly about all these things, but 90+% of the population couldn't give a damn. The political parties are very much in touch on that score.

    This is complete bullshit Richard and you know it. Let's go through them one at a time:

    - Facebook: only a minority of the UK population use Facebook, and it is now dropping. Many of those that use Facebook don't put much information on it.
    - Tesco ClubCards and Nectar Cards: most shoppers don't use these either, despite the big discounts.
    - Oyster Cards: You have to pay 50% more not to have an oyster card.
    - Gmail: The vast majority of people signed up for this before the NSA revelations came out, and it is now very difficult to inform all your contacts you are changing. Especially as there isn't a free email service that isn't tapped by the NSA.

    So basically, the government leaves private companies unregulated until the point where it's impossible to go about your life without having to use many of these services where your privacy is compromised, and then try to claim that you're complicit in their infringement of spying. This is an incredibly bad argument.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Also, the grassroots of the political parties have more than one political opinion. These multiple opinions should be represented in parliament. But they're not. What we get is your tyranny of the majority "the whole parliamentary party represents the dominant belief and everyone else should get in line". Occassionally you get revolts, after things have been brewing long enough, but only well after the time to react has passed. See the Tories on European issues or Labour on Iraq.

    Plus, the whole defence for our entire leadership coming from Oxbridge, notably Oxford PPE, is that they're supposed to have higher learning and value more important things. But they don't. Cameron got a First in this course, but doesn't give a damn about the most basic idea that people shouldn't have their personal information searched without a warrant. The guy is an immoral scumbag and only cares about being in power. No higher values whatsoever.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited January 2014

    @Socrates - But almost no-one cares about surveillance, so it's hardly a problem of the parties being out of touch with the grass roots, or with anyone else.

    Maybe people should care, but they don't. The proof? Just look at their behaviour:

    - They, completely voluntarily, stick details of the private lives all over Facebook, so Big Brother knows exactly what they've been doing and with whom;
    - They, completely voluntarily, sign up to Tesco Clubcards and Nectar cards, so Big Brother knows about every last item they buy in their weekly shop;
    - They, completely voluntarily, register their Oyster Cards, so Big Brother knows about every journey they make on public transport in London;
    - They, complately voluntarily, use GMail and sign up to Google services, so their surfing and emails are scanned;
    - They moan about all sorts of things, but not about number-plate recognition cameras, which have precisely zero political significance.

    No doubt you feel strongly about all these things, but 90+% of the population couldn't give a damn. The political parties are very much in touch on that score.

    I don't mind Kroger knowing my shopping habits, or my insurance company having access to my medical records. That works to my economic benefit and it's in their interest to keep the data confidential, as Target and Nieman-Marcus are currently finding out to their cost with credit card data.

    I am uncomfortable wih the government having access to all this - it gives me no economic benefit, and their track record for confidentiality is comparatively lamentable.

    Also government tends to be completely unresponsive to its 'customers'.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited January 2014
    Socrates said:

    This is complete bullshit Richard and you know it. Let's go through them one at a time:

    - Facebook: only a minority of the UK population use Facebook, and it is now dropping. Many of those that use Facebook don't put much information on it.
    - Tesco ClubCards and Nectar Cards: most shoppers don't use these either, despite the big discounts.
    - Oyster Cards: You have to pay 50% more not to have an oyster card.
    - Gmail: The vast majority of people signed up for this before the NSA revelations came out, and it is now very difficult to inform all your contacts you are changing. Especially as there isn't a free email service that isn't tapped by the NSA.

    So basically, the government leaves private companies unregulated until the point where it's impossible to go about your life without having to use many of these services where your privacy is compromised, and then try to claim that you're complicit in their infringement of spying. This is an incredibly bad argument.

    I'm not making an argument about whether people should care, I'm pointing out that, by their behaviour and voting (and by responses to opinion polls, such as the IpsosMORI issues surveys), people don't care. On the specific points, you are quite simply wrong on all four:

    - Facebook has 24 million UK users who log in every day, and 33 million who log in once a month.

    - Tesco Clubcard has 15 million active UK users, Nectar has 18.5 million (2012 data):
    http://www.brandrepublic.com/news/1116808/

    - Oyster: no, you don't have to register your Oyster card, there's no extra cost in not registering it.

    - The fact that Google scan GMail accounts and track your web use has nothing to do with what the NSA may do; it's in the terms and conditions which people accepted. Admittedly they haven't read them, but that is precisely my point.

    They don't care. (And I could give more examples - eg not switching off location data in their smartphones, so their every movement is tracked).

    I'm not saying this is a good thing (personally I'm very careful about data security), but it's a fact.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Channel 4 has also done some polling on the 50p tax rate.64.5% support.
    http://www.channel4.com/news/ed-balls-50p-top-rate-tax-business-survey-channel-4-news

    Also,the internet poll in The Grauniad ended 73% in favour.

    I think there is enough evidence to suggest the 50p tax rate is popular,despite the barrage of criticism spewed out of the usual organs of the Tory press in alliance with the millionaires,who also happen to be donors to the Tory party,aided by the supplicant right wing bias at the BBC.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited January 2014

    Channel 4 has also done some polling on the 50p tax rate.64.5% support.
    http://www.channel4.com/news/ed-balls-50p-top-rate-tax-business-survey-channel-4-news

    Also,the internet poll in The Grauniad ended 73% in favour.

    I think there is enough evidence to suggest the 50p tax rate is popular,despite the barrage of criticism spewed out of the usual organs of the Tory press in alliance with the millionaires,who also happen to be donors to the Tory party,aided by the supplicant right wing bias at the BBC.

    Great, I expect a 75% tax rate would be even more popular. Go for it, Ed!
  • eekeek Posts: 28,590
    Santander has solved the problem with the bad publicity zero hour contracts caused.

    Instead they are offering a 1 hour per month contract http://santanderjobs.co.uk/details.asp?nPostingID=17299&nPostingTargetID=91877&option=52&sort=DESC&respnr=1&ID=QGSFK026203F3VBQB8MV48M6Q&keywords=A07066&Resultsperpage=10&lg=UK&mask=external

    I can see the papers having a go once they find out.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited January 2014

    Channel 4 has also done some polling on the 50p tax rate.64.5% support.
    http://www.channel4.com/news/ed-balls-50p-top-rate-tax-business-survey-channel-4-news

    Also,the internet poll in The Grauniad ended 73% in favour.

    I think there is enough evidence to suggest the 50p tax rate is popular,despite the barrage of criticism spewed out of the usual organs of the Tory press in alliance with the millionaires,who also happen to be donors to the Tory party,aided by the supplicant right wing bias at the BBC.

    When Labour supported a 40% top tax rate, they won three elections. When they introduced a 50% top rate,they lost with 29% of the popular vote. It's a losers' strategy.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I agree. For all their faults the Iranians do not mess with the West, only in countries with a shia minority like Syria and Lebanon. Give me them over the Saudis any day. Nice carpets too!
    Charles said:

    taffys said:

    Not a good recipe for anyone.

    What's really behind this? perhaps the Iraqis suspect the saudis of meddling in their horrible internal politicis....

    The world's attitude to Saudi baffles me. They are supposed to be an ally and friend, and yet they are said to be behind every militant Islam group going.

    The House of Saud is a friend (or at least complicit). The deal is:

    1. We keep them in power,
    2. The Al-Sauds get very rich
    3. They spend some of that money as Danegeld paying off the Wahhabites
    4. The Wahhabites spend that money on making life miserable for us

    The problem we face is if the deal falls apart, then Wahhabites take over in Saudi and it become a mecca (apologies, couldn't resist) for all sorts of nasty people. And the Wahhabites probably stop the flow of oil.

    Personally that's why I thought the US was so keen to dislodge Saddam. With Iraqi and Russian oil freely available, the power and importance of the House of Saud is dramatically reduced.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Why do Lib Dems hate women?

    @patrickwintour: Lib Dems stay male and elect Malcolm Bruce as party deputy leader, beating Lorely Burt.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JamesTapsfield: The Lib Dems have elected a deputy leader who's standing down from parly at the next election... hmmm
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    Channel 4 has also done some polling on the 50p tax rate.64.5% support.
    http://www.channel4.com/news/ed-balls-50p-top-rate-tax-business-survey-channel-4-news

    Also,the internet poll in The Grauniad ended 73% in favour.

    I think there is enough evidence to suggest the 50p tax rate is popular,despite the barrage of criticism spewed out of the usual organs of the Tory press in alliance with the millionaires,who also happen to be donors to the Tory party,aided by the supplicant right wing bias at the BBC.

    Other people paying for your stuff, what's not to like about that? Apart from the fact that those other people may decide it's not worth the extra effort to work that bit extra to keep other people in stuff. If the French experience hasn't taught a lesson yet, it may in the very near future.

  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    Scott_P said:

    Why do Lib Dems hate women?

    @patrickwintour: Lib Dems stay male and elect Malcolm Bruce as party deputy leader, beating Lorely Burt.

    Probably wise, bearing in mind Lorely Burt is likely to lose her seat in 2015.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @tnewtondunn: So, the Libs reject 1st female deputy leader (Lorely Burt) for an albeit well respected older male - Malcolm Bruce - standing down in 2015?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    taffys said:

    Not a good recipe for anyone.

    What's really behind this? perhaps the Iraqis suspect the saudis of meddling in their horrible internal politicis....

    The world's attitude to Saudi baffles me. They are supposed to be an ally and friend, and yet they are said to be behind every militant Islam group going.

    It was said in the US that if the redacted bits from the official 9/11 report about the Saudis were ever published, no-one would ever ever think of Saudi Arabia as our ally and friend.

    They are not a friend, anymore than Pakistan is. Both countries are a breeding ground for terrorism, whether terrorists, the money to fund it or the ideology behind it.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    That looks terrible for the Libdem party, but I suspect that Malcolm Bruce is regarded as a soothing grey suit by the usual suspects in the Lords.
    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: So, the Libs reject 1st female deputy leader (Lorely Burt) for an albeit well respected older male - Malcolm Bruce - standing down in 2015?

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Pong said:


    Probably wise, bearing in mind Lorely Burt is likely to lose her seat in 2015.

    So they pick someone standing down?

    Care to try again?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,020
    Tim_B said:

    We have a winter storm just about to hit us.

    This is what local TV news loves and lives for - the ABC affiliate has suspended regular programming and has wall to wall "severe storm team 2 Action News" coverage with 15 camera crews and reporter teams out and about, and the Fox affiliate with their 'storm team' and VIPIR radar, has a dozen. Local TV news firmly believes that serious weather exists to bring us them.

    3 years ago almost to the day we had snowmageddon, and I was stuck in my house for 4 days.

    So far it looks like it's mostly south, north and west of the metro area.

    All the reporters are out with their rulers "looks like almost 1/2 an inch", standing on back porches reporting 1/8 inch dustings, writing 'snow' on the accumulation on a car windshield etc.

    The real danger is ice tomorrow as temperatures drop into the teens tonight.

    Schools and most offices have already closed and will be closed tomorrow.

    We simply are not equipped to deal with this for obvious reasons.

    Love it. Snow days keep our local radio station alive. Their current boss and previous main presenter used to encamp himself in the studio, cancel everything else and talk about the weather all day. Which schools had closed, what voluntary group were no longer meeting, what bus routes were proving problematic, nothing was too trivial.

    Probably why he is now boss of the station.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Hugh said:

    ***FAR RIGHT KLAXON***

    Don't try to reason with a raving CyberKipper or get them to elaborate on their views, you get the same sensation quicker from banging your head repeatedly against the nearest wall.

    I find it funny how some people (and this is not just a UKIP thing; right and left are also 'guilty') seem unable to expand on simple definitions, or give reasons behind their thinking.
    To be honest, I have outlined my views on the subject you kept asking about at length, at length on this very message board, and I have also outlined my views on the white working class many many times on here @Hugh

    So why waste time, possibly annoy people, get into an argument that i have had before, that neither side will leave alone and go over old ground by constantly repeating them on demand, when all you have to do is click my name and read my old posts if you need to know something so badly?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    saddened said:

    Channel 4 has also done some polling on the 50p tax rate.64.5% support.
    http://www.channel4.com/news/ed-balls-50p-top-rate-tax-business-survey-channel-4-news

    Also,the internet poll in The Grauniad ended 73% in favour.

    I think there is enough evidence to suggest the 50p tax rate is popular,despite the barrage of criticism spewed out of the usual organs of the Tory press in alliance with the millionaires,who also happen to be donors to the Tory party,aided by the supplicant right wing bias at the BBC.

    Other people paying for your stuff, what's not to like about that? Apart from the fact that those other people may decide it's not worth the extra effort to work that bit extra to keep other people in stuff. If the French experience hasn't taught a lesson yet, it may in the very near future.

    I wonder how many of those supporting the 50% tax rate think they themselves should pay more tax?

    If 2 out of 3 (or 3 out of 4) people favor economic dis-incentives then you have a real problem in getting your economy going.
  • Tim_B said:

    saddened said:

    Channel 4 has also done some polling on the 50p tax rate.64.5% support.
    http://www.channel4.com/news/ed-balls-50p-top-rate-tax-business-survey-channel-4-news


    Also,the internet poll in The Grauniad ended 73% in favour.

    I think there is enough evidence to suggest the 50p tax rate is popular,despite the barrage of criticism spewed out of the usual organs of the Tory press in alliance with the millionaires,who also happen to be donors to the Tory party,aided by the supplicant right wing bias at the BBC.

    Other people paying for your stuff, what's not to like about that? Apart from the fact that those other people may decide it's not worth the extra effort to work that bit extra to keep other people in stuff. If the French experience hasn't taught a lesson yet, it may in the very near future.

    I wonder how many of those supporting the 50% tax rate think they themselves should pay more tax?

    If 2 out of 3 (or 3 out of 4) people favor economic dis-incentives then you have a real problem in getting your economy going.</block-quote

    It's a frequently observed phenomenon that left wingers who loudly call for higher taxes make every arrangement to minimize their own contributions.

  • Where's Avery ???

    I need a yellow box for some predicted versus actual outcome data.

    First the predicted:

    "Growth in the UK economy for the coming five years is estimated to be: 1.2 per cent this year and 2.3 per cent next year; Then 2.8 per cent in 2012 followed by 2.9 per cent in 2013; Then 2.7 per cent in both 2014 and in 2015."

    And now the actual:

    2010 1.7%
    2011 1.1%
    2012 0.3%
    2013 1.9%

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_350407.pdf

    By my reckoning George is running 4.2% below prediction.

    And if I was truly cynical I might suggest that Osborne deliberately underpredicted 2010 growth or that the credit for it belongs to the outgoing Labour government.


  • Tim_B said:

    saddened said:

    Channel 4 has also done some polling on the 50p tax rate.64.5% support.
    http://www.channel4.com/news/ed-balls-50p-top-rate-tax-business-survey-channel-4-news

    Also,the internet poll in The Grauniad ended 73% in favour.

    I think there is enough evidence to suggest the 50p tax rate is popular,despite the barrage of criticism spewed out of the usual organs of the Tory press in alliance with the millionaires,who also happen to be donors to the Tory party,aided by the supplicant right wing bias at the BBC.

    Other people paying for your stuff, what's not to like about that? Apart from the fact that those other people may decide it's not worth the extra effort to work that bit extra to keep other people in stuff. If the French experience hasn't taught a lesson yet, it may in the very near future.

    I wonder how many of those supporting the 50% tax rate think they themselves should pay more tax?

    If 2 out of 3 (or 3 out of 4) people favor economic dis-incentives then you have a real problem in getting your economy going.

    I pay the 45 pence rate and have no problem at all in it reverting to 50 pence. These have been spectacularly good yrars for top rate payers. Certainly much more so than for the many millions whose living standards have stagnated or declined. They still work just as hard, why wouldn't a top rate taxpayer?

  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,989
    Scott_P said:

    Why do Lib Dems hate women?

    Evening all :)

    As a Lib Dem member, I wasn't aware I "hated women". I should mention that to Mrs Stodge.

    The reason why there aren't more women LD MPs - first thought is the likes of Jackie Ballard, Sue Doughty, Sandra Gidley and Julia Goldsworthy would suggest it's possible. The fact is winning a Parliamentary seat as a Lib Dem isn't just a matter of turning up to the selection committee, saying the right things and then living off your 15,000 majority for the next twenty years.

    It's brutally tough to win a Westminster seat as a Lib Dem - the much-discussed Mike Hancock lost by 200 or so in both 1987 and 1992 before winning in 1997. The likes of Tom Brake and Paul Burstow spent years toiling as local councillors before winning as did Ronnie Fearn in Southport.

    That's years of generally thankless toil akin to pushing a pea uphill with your nose and, to be blunt, it must take a toll on family and other life. When I was an activist, I was staggered by the commitment of councillors and prospective MPs and it wasn't a commitment I could or was prepared to match.

    I'm sure Labour and Conservative activists work very hard too but for these parties there are "safe" areas - to be a Labour activist in East Ham or a Conservative activist in deepest Surrey, well, that sounds easy. Knocking on doors where 70% of those who vote vote for your party means you're never far from a supporter or a friendly face.

    To be blunt, I've met very few LDs who have worked their way from local council to Westminster and those I have met have given up an incredible amount over a long period of time. Part of that is counterbalanced by the normality of family life - that may explain why it's the men rather than the women who stay the course but it's probably more complex than that.



  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,591

    Tim_B said:

    saddened said:

    Channel 4 has also done some polling on the 50p tax rate.64.5% support.
    http://www.channel4.com/news/ed-balls-50p-top-rate-tax-business-survey-channel-4-news

    Also,the internet poll in The Grauniad ended 73% in favour.

    I think there is enough evidence to suggest the 50p tax rate is popular,despite the barrage of criticism spewed out of the usual organs of the Tory press in alliance with the millionaires,who also happen to be donors to the Tory party,aided by the supplicant right wing bias at the BBC.

    Other people paying for your stuff, what's not to like about that? Apart from the fact that those other people may decide it's not worth the extra effort to work that bit extra to keep other people in stuff. If the French experience hasn't taught a lesson yet, it may in the very near future.

    I wonder how many of those supporting the 50% tax rate think they themselves should pay more tax?

    If 2 out of 3 (or 3 out of 4) people favor economic dis-incentives then you have a real problem in getting your economy going.

    I pay the 45 pence rate and have no problem at all in it reverting to 50 pence. These have been spectacularly good yrars for top rate payers. Certainly much more so than for the many millions whose living standards have stagnated or declined. They still work just as hard, why wouldn't a top rate taxpayer?

    Are you genuinely going to argue that people don't respond to incentives in the tax system?

    All the arguments you could make, and you couldn't help tacking on that - something entirely stupid, and in so many other areas, completely contrary to standard left wing arguments.
  • Tim_B said:

    saddened said:

    Channel 4 has also done some polling on the 50p tax rate.64.5% support.
    http://www.channel4.com/news/ed-balls-50p-top-rate-tax-business-survey-channel-4-news

    Also,the internet poll in The Grauniad ended 73% in favour.

    I think there is enough evidence to suggest the 50p tax rate is popular,despite the barrage of criticism spewed out of the usual organs of the Tory press in alliance with the millionaires,who also happen to be donors to the Tory party,aided by the supplicant right wing bias at the BBC.

    Other people paying for your stuff, what's not to like about that? Apart from the fact that those other people may decide it's not worth the extra effort to work that bit extra to keep other people in stuff. If the French experience hasn't taught a lesson yet, it may in the very near future.

    I wonder how many of those supporting the 50% tax rate think they themselves should pay more tax?

    If 2 out of 3 (or 3 out of 4) people favor economic dis-incentives then you have a real problem in getting your economy going.

    I pay the 45 pence rate and have no problem at all in it reverting to 50 pence. These have been spectacularly good yrars for top rate payers. Certainly much more so than for the many millions whose living standards have stagnated or declined. They still work just as hard, why wouldn't a top rate taxpayer?

    What's keeping you? Send that cheque today.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    stodge said:


    To be blunt, I've met very few LDs who have worked their way from local council to Westminster and those I have met have given up an incredible amount over a long period of time. Part of that is counterbalanced by the normality of family life - that may explain why it's the men rather than the women who stay the course but it's probably more complex than that.

    Which makes it even more bizarre they have just elected a guy who has already announced he is giving up. Instead of a woman.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @Sun_Politics: Ex-cllr says it was 'unbearable' to be a woman in the Lib Dems - as party reject chance to elect first female deputy: http://t.co/9itVkgs8Fy
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    saddened said:

    Channel 4 has also done some polling on the 50p tax rate.64.5% support.
    http://www.channel4.com/news/ed-balls-50p-top-rate-tax-business-survey-channel-4-news

    Also,the internet poll in The Grauniad ended 73% in favour.

    I think there is enough evidence to suggest the 50p tax rate is popular,despite the barrage of criticism spewed out of the usual organs of the Tory press in alliance with the millionaires,who also happen to be donors to the Tory party,aided by the supplicant right wing bias at the BBC.

    Other people paying for your stuff, what's not to like about that? Apart from the fact that those other people may decide it's not worth the extra effort to work that bit extra to keep other people in stuff. If the French experience hasn't taught a lesson yet, it may in the very near future.

    I wonder how many of those supporting the 50% tax rate think they themselves should pay more tax?

    If 2 out of 3 (or 3 out of 4) people favor economic dis-incentives then you have a real problem in getting your economy going.

    I pay the 45 pence rate and have no problem at all in it reverting to 50 pence. These have been spectacularly good yrars for top rate payers. Certainly much more so than for the many millions whose living standards have stagnated or declined. They still work just as hard, why wouldn't a top rate taxpayer?

    Once you start using income tax as a social engineering project rather than a fund raising exercise, and by describing a tax increase that will produce no revenue as 'fair' you surely are, unintended consequences begin to occur.

    Presumably many or most respondents to the 50% survey were not tax payers at that level.

    Unless you are prepared to pay more tax yourself, you should not expect anyone else to do so either.

    That's pure politics of envy.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @ShippersUnbound: Frst chance the Lib Dems get to show they aren't sexist, they snub the lively female candidate for dep ldr and pick the stuffiest white male
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    Malcolm Bruce is not only standing down as an MP, but something tells me he will end up in the Lords sooner rather than later.
    Scott_P said:

    stodge said:


    To be blunt, I've met very few LDs who have worked their way from local council to Westminster and those I have met have given up an incredible amount over a long period of time. Part of that is counterbalanced by the normality of family life - that may explain why it's the men rather than the women who stay the course but it's probably more complex than that.

    Which makes it even more bizarre they have just elected a guy who has already announced he is giving up. Instead of a woman.
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618
    I have never ,ever had a political canvasser knock on my door,I long for the face to face discussion,but they never come,despite numerous addresses over the years.
    I do get the Jehovah Witness crowd,and I enjoy a bit of fun with them,and the cavity wall guys,I have solid walls,so great fun to ask them to quote,but never any political party.
    Back to the Jehovah callers,the last lot was embarrasing,they were young girls,( under 16)they really should not have been out on the street,and I declined to discuss with them.
    Yes well off topic,but missus out tonight,so a bit of delurking on PB.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Tim_B said:

    saddened said:

    Channel 4 has also done some polling on the 50p tax rate.64.5% support.
    http://www.channel4.com/news/ed-balls-50p-top-rate-tax-business-survey-channel-4-news

    Also,the internet poll in The Grauniad ended 73% in favour.

    I think there is enough evidence to suggest the 50p tax rate is popular,despite the barrage of criticism spewed out of the usual organs of the Tory press in alliance with the millionaires,who also happen to be donors to the Tory party,aided by the supplicant right wing bias at the BBC.

    Other people paying for your stuff, what's not to like about that? Apart from the fact that those other people may decide it's not worth the extra effort to work that bit extra to keep other people in stuff. If the French experience hasn't taught a lesson yet, it may in the very near future.

    I wonder how many of those supporting the 50% tax rate think they themselves should pay more tax?

    If 2 out of 3 (or 3 out of 4) people favor economic dis-incentives then you have a real problem in getting your economy going.

    I pay the 45 pence rate and have no problem at all in it reverting to 50 pence. These have been spectacularly good yrars for top rate payers. Certainly much more so than for the many millions whose living standards have stagnated or declined. They still work just as hard, why wouldn't a top rate taxpayer?

    I am a higher rate tax payer and am paying more tax than I did so am worse off than I was. But I am still better off than many others so am not complaining. I realise how relatively lucky I am. I agree that there is something unedifying about well off people complaining about paying a little bit more when that difference is not really going to mean that much to them whereas a change in income or tax is much more critical for someone earning much less. (It is equally unedifying to see people on the left talk about how wonderful taxation is and then find them using every loophole going to reduce their tax bill and load it onto those mugs who can't avoid PAYE.)

    The 50p tax rate is not the big issue for me. I am much more concerned about what will happen to the 40p tax threshold and where the new 10p tax rate will kick in. I also worry about attacks on pension savings. Saving for my retirement / ill-health / helping my family is something I try to do as much as I can of and it seems to me to be quite immoral to punish people who are trying to do the right thing or to see people's savings as some sort of piggy-bank to be raided at will.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @ayestotheright

    Clegg says his own party too male and too pale, his MPs just elected a 69 year old middle class white man as their deputy. Madness.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    More proof - if it were needed - that bad weather generates bad jokes. I was just texted this -

    How do you know the toothbrush was invented in Alabama?

    If it was invented anywhere else it would be called the teethbrush.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    jayfdee said:

    I have never ,ever had a political canvasser knock on my door,I long for the face to face discussion,but they never come,despite numerous addresses over the years.
    I do get the Jehovah Witness crowd,and I enjoy a bit of fun with them,and the cavity wall guys,I have solid walls,so great fun to ask them to quote,but never any political party.
    Back to the Jehovah callers,the last lot was embarrasing,they were young girls,( under 16)they really should not have been out on the street,and I declined to discuss with them.
    Yes well off topic,but missus out tonight,so a bit of delurking on PB.

    I had a Tory canvasser recently. He was very good-looking so it was quite a treat answering his questions. Shallow of me, I know.

  • Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:

    saddened said:

    Channel 4 has also done some polling on the 50p tax rate.64.5% support.
    http://www.channel4.com/news/ed-balls-50p-top-rate-tax-business-survey-channel-4-news

    Also,the internet poll in The Grauniad ended 73% in favour.

    I think there is enough evidence to suggest the 50p tax rate is popular,despite the barrage of criticism spewed out of the usual organs of the Tory press in alliance with the millionaires,who also happen to be donors to the Tory party,aided by the supplicant right wing bias at the BBC.

    Other people paying for your stuff, what's not to like about that? Apart from the fact that those other people may decide it's not worth the extra effort to work that bit extra to keep other people in stuff. If the French experience hasn't taught a lesson yet, it may in the very near future.

    I wonder how many of those supporting the 50% tax rate think they themselves should pay more tax?

    If 2 out of 3 (or 3 out of 4) people favor economic dis-incentives then you have a real problem in getting your economy going.

    I pay the 45 pence rate and have no problem at all in it reverting to 50 pence. These have been spectacularly good yrars for top rate payers. Certainly much more so than for the many millions whose living standards have stagnated or declined. They still work just as hard, why wouldn't a top rate taxpayer?

    Once you start using income tax as a social engineering project rather than a fund raising exercise, and by describing a tax increase that will produce no revenue as 'fair' you surely are, unintended consequences begin to occur.

    Presumably many or most respondents to the 50% survey were not tax payers at that level.

    Unless you are prepared to pay more tax yourself, you should not expect anyone else to do so either.

    That's pure politics of envy.

    It's the politics of seeking to generate more tax revenues from people who have done very well out of the last two or three years: income and dividend tax cuts; soaring house prices; rocketing pension pots; low interest rates. It's not about envy, it's about who can afford to make a slightly greater contribution at a time of national need.

  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited January 2014
    Scott_P said:

    Pong said:


    Probably wise, bearing in mind Lorely Burt is likely to lose her seat in 2015.

    So they pick someone standing down?

    Care to try again?
    Well, I wasn't aware of Malcolm Bruces retirement plans. I doubt you were either, until twitter told you.

    Either way, saying Burt didn't get elected due to lib dem sexism makes you look like an idiot.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    Well said Cyclefree.
    Cyclefree said:

    Tim_B said:

    saddened said:

    Channel 4 has also done some polling on the 50p tax rate.64.5% support.
    http://www.channel4.com/news/ed-balls-50p-top-rate-tax-business-survey-channel-4-news

    Also,the internet poll in The Grauniad ended 73% in favour.

    I think there is enough evidence to suggest the 50p tax rate is popular,despite the barrage of criticism spewed out of the usual organs of the Tory press in alliance with the millionaires,who also happen to be donors to the Tory party,aided by the supplicant right wing bias at the BBC.

    Other people paying for your stuff, what's not to like about that? Apart from the fact that those other people may decide it's not worth the extra effort to work that bit extra to keep other people in stuff. If the French experience hasn't taught a lesson yet, it may in the very near future.

    I wonder how many of those supporting the 50% tax rate think they themselves should pay more tax?

    If 2 out of 3 (or 3 out of 4) people favor economic dis-incentives then you have a real problem in getting your economy going.

    I pay the 45 pence rate and have no problem at all in it reverting to 50 pence. These have been spectacularly good yrars for top rate payers. Certainly much more so than for the many millions whose living standards have stagnated or declined. They still work just as hard, why wouldn't a top rate taxpayer?

    I am much more concerned about what will happen to the 40p tax threshold and where the new 10p tax rate will kick in. I also worry about attacks on pension savings. Saving for my retirement / ill-health / helping my family is something I try to do as much as I can of and it seems to me to be quite immoral to punish people who are trying to do the right thing or to see people's savings as some sort of piggy-bank to be raided at will.

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    "ComRes/ITV News poll finds the public grumpy about all the main parties"

    What 'inspired' spin. So it's not deeply unpopular policies it's just grumpy voters.

    If only Osbrowne had thought of that excuse for the omnishambles in the first place.

    *chortle*
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:

    saddened said:

    Channel 4 has also done some polling on the 50p tax rate.64.5% support.
    http://www.channel4.com/news/ed-balls-50p-top-rate-tax-business-survey-channel-4-news

    Also,the internet poll in The Grauniad ended 73% in favour.

    I think there is enough evidence to suggest the 50p tax rate is popular,despite the barrage of criticism spewed out of the usual organs of the Tory press in alliance with the millionaires,who also happen to be donors to the Tory party,aided by the supplicant right wing bias at the BBC.

    Other people paying for your stuff, what's not to like about that? Apart from the fact that those other people may decide it's not worth the extra effort to work that bit extra to keep other people in stuff. If the French experience hasn't taught a lesson yet, it may in the very near future.

    I wonder how many of those supporting the 50% tax rate think they themselves should pay more tax?

    If 2 out of 3 (or 3 out of 4) people favor economic dis-incentives then you have a real problem in getting your economy going.

    I pay the 45 pence rate and have no problem at all in it reverting to 50 pence. These have been spectacularly good yrars for top rate payers. Certainly much more so than for the many millions whose living standards have stagnated or declined. They still work just as hard, why wouldn't a top rate taxpayer?

    Once you start using income tax as a social engineering project rather than a fund raising exercise, and by describing a tax increase that will produce no revenue as 'fair' you surely are, unintended consequences begin to occur.

    Presumably many or most respondents to the 50% survey were not tax payers at that level.

    Unless you are prepared to pay more tax yourself, you should not expect anyone else to do so either.

    That's pure politics of envy.
    There is absolutely no proof that it does not generate more revenue. The usual smoke and mirrors examples are given for yeras immediately before or after a change. For example, when 50% became 45%, all big bonus payments were held back until April 6th. Thereby, reducing tax receipts artificially in the 50% year and artificially increasing it in the 45% year.

    What would have happened if the 50% continued. There would have been no slippage into the next year.

    It would be interesting what would happen in Osborne's second year of 45%. Surely, if this 45% bullshit is correct, then tax revenues should increase even further with inflation !

    By the way, I too am a 45% marginal payer. It would make zero difference to me if rates became 50%. It is only in the margins that I will be making less.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:

    saddened said:

    Channel 4 has also done some polling on the 50p tax rate.64.5% support.
    http://www.channel4.com/news/ed-balls-50p-top-rate-tax-business-survey-channel-4-news

    Also,the internet poll in The Grauniad ended 73% in favour.

    I think there is enough evidence to suggest the 50p tax rate is popular,despite the barrage of criticism spewed out of the usual organs of the Tory press in alliance with the millionaires,who also happen to be donors to the Tory party,aided by the supplicant right wing bias at the BBC.

    Other people paying for your stuff, what's not to like about that? Apart from the fact that those other people may decide it's not worth the extra effort to work that bit extra to keep other people in stuff. If the French experience hasn't taught a lesson yet, it may in the very near future.

    I wonder how many of those supporting the 50% tax rate think they themselves should pay more tax?

    If 2 out of 3 (or 3 out of 4) people favor economic dis-incentives then you have a real problem in getting your economy going.

    I pay the 45 pence rate and have no problem at all in it reverting to 50 pence. These have been spectacularly good yrars for top rate payers. Certainly much more so than for the many millions whose living standards have stagnated or declined. They still work just as hard, why wouldn't a top rate taxpayer?

    Once you start using income tax as a social engineering project rather than a fund raising exercise, and by describing a tax increase that will produce no revenue as 'fair' you surely are, unintended consequences begin to occur.

    Presumably many or most respondents to the 50% survey were not tax payers at that level.

    Unless you are prepared to pay more tax yourself, you should not expect anyone else to do so either.

    That's pure politics of envy.

    It's the politics of seeking to generate more tax revenues from people who have done very well out of the last two or three years: income and dividend tax cuts; soaring house prices; rocketing pension pots; low interest rates. It's not about envy, it's about who can afford to make a slightly greater contribution at a time of national need.

    There is a world of difference between 'afford to make a slightly greater contribution ' and 'generate more tax revenues'. The 50% tax rate appears to do the former but not the latter.

    People sugesting other people - but presumably not themselves - pay more tax is the definition of the politics of envy.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Any markets on Man U finishing 3rd / 4th .
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Cyclefree said:

    jayfdee said:

    I have never ,ever had a political canvasser knock on my door,I long for the face to face discussion,but they never come,despite numerous addresses over the years.
    I do get the Jehovah Witness crowd,and I enjoy a bit of fun with them,and the cavity wall guys,I have solid walls,so great fun to ask them to quote,but never any political party.
    Back to the Jehovah callers,the last lot was embarrasing,they were young girls,( under 16)they really should not have been out on the street,and I declined to discuss with them.
    Yes well off topic,but missus out tonight,so a bit of delurking on PB.

    I had a Tory canvasser recently. He was very good-looking so it was quite a treat answering his questions. Shallow of me, I know.

    You should have offered tea, biscuits and sympathy. That is what I do. Their canvassing records are so pathetic, they don't even know my political allegiance.

    Tell them how wondeful Cam and Gideon are and waste their canvassing time !
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Yet more chaos coming for John Major Cammie.
    Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics 1h

    EXCL: Tory backbenchers say ministers risk 'gift-wrapping' votes to UKIP by denying them a say in immigration debate: http://bit.ly/1ftKMcT
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    edited January 2014
    surbiton said:

    Cyclefree said:

    jayfdee said:

    I have never ,ever had a political canvasser knock on my door,I long for the face to face discussion,but they never come,despite numerous addresses over the years.
    I do get the Jehovah Witness crowd,and I enjoy a bit of fun with them,and the cavity wall guys,I have solid walls,so great fun to ask them to quote,but never any political party.
    Back to the Jehovah callers,the last lot was embarrasing,they were young girls,( under 16)they really should not have been out on the street,and I declined to discuss with them.
    Yes well off topic,but missus out tonight,so a bit of delurking on PB.

    I had a Tory canvasser recently. He was very good-looking so it was quite a treat answering his questions. Shallow of me, I know.

    You should have offered tea, biscuits and sympathy. That is what I do. Their canvassing records are so pathetic, they don't even know my political allegiance.

    Tell them how wondeful Cam and Gideon are and waste their canvassing time !
    I would happily waste any canvasser's time but rarely get them. It was delightful to have my time interrupted by a charming, polite and handsome young man. I wish it happened more often!

    (They seemed very clued up and organised and have been very active in my ward lately, much more so than the other parties, though whether it will do them any good is another matter.)

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    isam said:

    Hugh said:

    ***FAR RIGHT KLAXON***

    Don't try to reason with a raving CyberKipper or get them to elaborate on their views, you get the same sensation quicker from banging your head repeatedly against the nearest wall.

    I find it funny how some people (and this is not just a UKIP thing; right and left are also 'guilty') seem unable to expand on simple definitions, or give reasons behind their thinking.
    To be honest, I have outlined my views on the subject you kept asking about at length, at length on this very message board, and I have also outlined my views on the white working class many many times on here @Hugh

    So why waste time, possibly annoy people, get into an argument that i have had before, that neither side will leave alone and go over old ground by constantly repeating them on demand, when all you have to do is click my name and read my old posts if you need to know something so badly?
    Because I couldn't find them (*) amongst your 2,100+ messages. Maybe that's me being a thicko, but there you go.

    If it's so easy, provide link(s) or express them again instead of giving the impression you'd rather avoid answering the question.

    (*) Vanilla doesn't appear to make it that easy; perhaps deliberately, perhaps to save bandwidth. I've wasted enough time trying to find your thinking on this matter. Then again, I suspect that's like the Hunting of the Snark ...
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    @Surbiton

    There is absolutely no proof that it does not generate more revenue.

    You agree - there's no proof that it will raise revenue.

    Most of Europe and North America tried tax rates of 50% and much higher in some cases, over the last 50 years. Most now don't. If it worked they still would. The reason they don't is that it's an economic disincentive.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    All the 'politics of envy' excuses didn't work for this chump and it won't work for the tories.
    The Washington Times ‏@WashTimes 30 Aug 2012

    BRETT DECKER: Romney disses Obama's politics of envy: GOP's Tampa convention reinforces old-fashioned values: http://bit.ly/OM8DIr
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806

    Where's Avery ???

    I need a yellow box for some predicted versus actual outcome data.

    First the predicted:

    "Growth in the UK economy for the coming five years is estimated to be: 1.2 per cent this year and 2.3 per cent next year; Then 2.8 per cent in 2012 followed by 2.9 per cent in 2013; Then 2.7 per cent in both 2014 and in 2015."

    And now the actual:

    2010 1.7%
    2011 1.1%
    2012 0.3%
    2013 1.9%

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_350407.pdf

    By my reckoning George is running 4.2% below prediction.

    And if I was truly cynical I might suggest that Osborne deliberately underpredicted 2010 growth or that the credit for it belongs to the outgoing Labour government.


    I don't know when GO stopped making prediction/forecasts but all such things are made by the OBR. Like Labour, kippers can't abide some good news.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    Socrates said:

    Also, the grassroots of the political parties have more than one political opinion. These multiple opinions should be represented in parliament. But they're not. What we get is your tyranny of the majority "the whole parliamentary party represents the dominant belief and everyone else should get in line". Occassionally you get revolts, after things have been brewing long enough, but only well after the time to react has passed. See the Tories on European issues or Labour on Iraq.

    Plus, the whole defence for our entire leadership coming from Oxbridge, notably Oxford PPE, is that they're supposed to have higher learning and value more important things. But they don't. Cameron got a First in this course, but doesn't give a damn about the most basic idea that people shouldn't have their personal information searched without a warrant. The guy is an immoral scumbag and only cares about being in power. No higher values whatsoever.

    I suppose the good thing is that when a political system ossifies, it can blow apart rapidly.

    UKIP are the new broom.

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Jawdropping stuff.
    ThinkProgress ‏@thinkprogress 1h

    Retired Army General to Tea Party Group: I would lead a coup against the U.S. government http://thkpr.gs/1ee6cft
    Bodes well for the next GOP circus.
  • TGOHF said:

    Any markets on Man U finishing 3rd / 4th .

    No way they will finish third, best they can hope for is fourth and I wouldn't be backing it.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/cricket/25927581

    It is not just India, England and Australia are at it too !

    Giles Clarke, he is the one who once made a deal with Allen Stanford.
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618
    From my personal viewpoint excessive taxation is a severe disincentive to the wealth producers.
    I had a very profitable business,but hated paying excessive tax,I eventually ran out of legal ways to reduce my tax bill,PEPS(remember them) ISAs,SIPPs,pension contributions etc.
    So I sold up and retired,the tax regime lost an entrepreneur,I created 100+ jobs,and could have done more,high tax rates Kill the entrepreneur......
  • @ TimB - Accusing people of "the politics of envy" is a meaningless right-wing comfort blanket, as is the claim that asking top rate taxpayers like me to pay slightly more somehow disincentivises us. We are no more venal than less well off people who continue to work hard despite seeing their living standards fall.

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited January 2014
    With all the talk of economy recovery vs. cost of living crisis, and the need for voters to feel the effects of any recovery in their pockets, it is important for PBers to keep their impartial and analytic eyes fixed on key confidence surveys.

    I mentioned last week the importance of the monthly Markit "Household Finance Index" which is prepared in co-operation with Ipsos-MORI. This month's edition was published today.

    The key findings are:

    • Household Finance Index (HFI) hits joint-highest level since the survey began in Feb 2009
    • Inflation perceptions drop to lowest level for three-and-a-half years
    • Worries over job security at survey-record low
    • Income from employment rises only slightly


    The main Household Finance Index itself rose over the month reaching a joint-highest record in the survey's five year history. Like Markit's PMIs, the neutral value is 50.0, but unlike them, the HFI is still (and has always been) below neutral. It is the trend which is significant.

    Richard Nabavi's post downthread on the need for "historical context" and the "grumpy and pessimistic" of voters and survey correspondents is relevant. In mid 2010, the HFI was around 37. It rose towards the end of the year to 41, then fell back during 2011 to mid year trough of below 34. Since then, and particularly from the beginning of 2012, it has risen on a linear trend, with occasional and reversed montly setbacks, to this month's high of 41.5.

    A number of sub-indices are published with the headline HFI and a table will be posted in a continuation post.

    Monthly changes in the indices tend to be very small and sometimes fluctuate against trend, but a reading of the movements over two years is clear.

    Current optimism indices are either at or near their record levels and pessimism measures have fallen to new lows. Since mid 2012 the indices having been moving positively on a relentless and linear trend, with the headline HFI projected to move above neutral before 2015.

    If following the Labour lead fall in VI polls is like watching paint peel, following confidence in household finances is like watching a thoroughbred shed its winter coat and acquire its early summer gloss.

    [Edited to calm moderator's feelings].
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Markit table:
    =================================================================
    Markit & Ipsos-Mori
    Household Finance Index Monthly
    Jan 28 2013 Dec Jan Movement Notes
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Household Finance Index 40.9 41.5 Positive Joint Survey
    record
    [Sub-Indices]----------------------------------------------------

    Financial Wellbeing 48.6 45.5 Negative Second highest
    over next 12 months in over 5 years

    Job Security 46.4 46.5 Positive Survey Record
    5 yr ave = 41.0

    Work Activity 56.0 55.4 Negative Second highest
    Current in over 5 years

    Income from Employment 50.9 50.8 Negative Above neutral
    3 times Oct-Jan

    Inflation Expectations 82.6 81.0 Positive Lowest for
    Current 3.5 years

    Inflation Expectations 90.9 90.8 Positive Lowest since
    over next 12 months Feb 2012
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Full report here: http://bit.ly/1erw6J3
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    jayfdee said:

    I have never ,ever had a political canvasser knock on my door,I long for the face to face discussion,but they never come,despite numerous addresses over the years.
    I do get the Jehovah Witness crowd,and I enjoy a bit of fun with them,and the cavity wall guys,I have solid walls,so great fun to ask them to quote,but never any political party.
    Back to the Jehovah callers,the last lot was embarrasing,they were young girls,( under 16)they really should not have been out on the street,and I declined to discuss with them.
    Yes well off topic,but missus out tonight,so a bit of delurking on PB.

    My grandfather was a religious fanatic, who loved to debate Jehovah's witnesses. He would accuse them of sodomy, fornication, bestiality, child abuse, blasphemy, etc., and finish his tirade by telling them to "get back to your godless den of vice."
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited January 2014
    =================================================================

    George Osborne has made my family better off financially

    Agree 9% - Disagree 67% - DK 24%


    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    :)
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Mick_Pork said:

    =================================================================

    George Osborne has made my family better off financially

    Agree 9% - Disagree 67% - DK 24%


    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    :)
    9% of the country live in 11 Downing St ??
  • Mick_Pork said:

    =================================================================

    George Osborne has made my family better off financially

    Agree 9% - Disagree 67% - DK 24%


    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    :)
    Gordon Brown wrecked the economy and made my family worse off

    Agree 100%

    George Osborne has rescued the country and my families future

    Agree 100%
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    While objectively the difference between 45% and 50% is not a lot, psychologically it is. Half your earnings (plus NI) being deducted is significant.

    Perhaps that is why 48% is quoted as the Laffer peak in some places.

    I do not pay it, but I do resent my 62% marginal rate above the ton, due to loss of allowances.
    Tim_B said:

    @Surbiton

    There is absolutely no proof that it does not generate more revenue.

    You agree - there's no proof that it will raise revenue.

    Most of Europe and North America tried tax rates of 50% and much higher in some cases, over the last 50 years. Most now don't. If it worked they still would. The reason they don't is that it's an economic disincentive.

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Mick_Pork said:

    ===========================================================

    George Osborne has made my family better off financially

    Agree 9% - Disagree 67% - DK 24%


    -----------------------------------------------------------
    :)
    ==============================
    *****Congratulations Pork*****
    ------------------------------
    Strong but erratic improvement

    Presentation = 10/10
    Content = 1/10

    Conclusion = Vote Tory
    ==============================
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    TGOHF said:


    9% of the country live in 11 Downing St ??

    *tears of laughter etc.*
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Martinez appears to be ruining all Moyes's good work.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @SouthamObserver

    'I pay the 45 pence rate and have no problem at all in it reverting to 50 pence'

    Don't wait for the 50p rate just make an additional donation.
  • Nighthawks is now open
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @LabourList: Only 40% of LabourList readers think Labour will win a majority in 2015 http://t.co/Y61oEL1JGl
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    Like I've said before, there are no last on the dancefloor beer goggles thick enough.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    After this latest outbreak of PB Romneyism in blaming the voters and the polls it would be remiss not to show where that inevitably and hilariously leads.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TwuR0jCavk
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited January 2014
    surbiton said:

    Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:

    saddened said:

    Channel 4 has also done some polling on the 50p tax rate.64.5% support.
    http://www.channel4.com/news/ed-balls-50p-top-rate-tax-business-survey-channel-4-news

    Also,the internet poll in The Grauniad ended 73% in favour.

    I think there is enough evidence to suggest the 50p tax rate is popular,despite the barrage of criticism spewed out of the usual organs of the Tory press in alliance with the millionaires,who also happen to be donors to the Tory party,aided by the supplicant right wing bias at the BBC.

    ...

    ...

    ...

    Once you start using income tax as a social engineering project rather than a fund raising exercise, and by describing a tax increase that will produce no revenue as 'fair' you surely are, unintended consequences begin to occur.

    Presumably many or most respondents to the 50% survey were not tax payers at that level.

    Unless you are prepared to pay more tax yourself, you should not expect anyone else to do so either.

    That's pure politics of envy.
    There is absolutely no proof that it does not generate more revenue. The usual smoke and mirrors examples are given for yeras immediately before or after a change. For example, when 50% became 45%, all big bonus payments were held back until April 6th. Thereby, reducing tax receipts artificially in the 50% year and artificially increasing it in the 45% year.

    What would have happened if the 50% continued. There would have been no slippage into the next year.

    It would be interesting what would happen in Osborne's second year of 45%. Surely, if this 45% bullshit is correct, then tax revenues should increase even further with inflation !

    By the way, I too am a 45% marginal payer. It would make zero difference to me if rates became 50%. It is only in the margins that I will be making less.
    Surby

    There is more than adequate proof that higher tax revenues correlate with lower rates.

    What isn't proved beyond all reasonable doubt and in an accurately measurable way is that there is a causal relationship between lower rates and higher receipts.

  • perdix said:

    Where's Avery ???

    I need a yellow box for some predicted versus actual outcome data.

    First the predicted:

    "Growth in the UK economy for the coming five years is estimated to be: 1.2 per cent this year and 2.3 per cent next year; Then 2.8 per cent in 2012 followed by 2.9 per cent in 2013; Then 2.7 per cent in both 2014 and in 2015."

    And now the actual:

    2010 1.7%
    2011 1.1%
    2012 0.3%
    2013 1.9%

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_350407.pdf

    By my reckoning George is running 4.2% below prediction.

    And if I was truly cynical I might suggest that Osborne deliberately underpredicted 2010 growth or that the credit for it belongs to the outgoing Labour government.


    I don't know when GO stopped making prediction/forecasts but all such things are made by the OBR. Like Labour, kippers can't abide some good news.

    I see you can't deny that Osborne has failed to reach his targets.

    But keep on bleating like a good sheep "my party good, your party bad, my party good, your party bad, my party good, your party bad, my party good, your party bad ... "
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    @TimB

    Very good. I'm going to email that to someone.
    Tim_B said:

    More proof - if it were needed - that bad weather generates bad jokes. I was just texted this -

    How do you know the toothbrush was invented in Alabama?

    If it was invented anywhere else it would be called the teethbrush.

  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    Twitter
    Tom Newton Dunn ‏@tnewtondunn 16m
    A powerful poll from YouGov in @TheSunNewspaper tomorrow that proves folk may like a policy, but it only does more damage to its owner.
This discussion has been closed.