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Starmer has a net approval lead of 17% over Sunak – politicalbetting.com

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  • NEW: A deal to end much of the rail strikes chaos is ‘within touching distance’ tonight.

    Ministers have offered RMT a 9% pay rise over 2yrs.

    Also, crucially, demand for trains to be driver-only operated scaled back.

    RMT exec meets Monday to discuss.

    What an utter waste of time this whole thing has been
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,854
    Starmer's tactics seem to be committing himself to nothing but appearing to be moderate. He had to spend a year or two getting Corbyn out of Labour's system so you can't blame him not doing anything dramatic.

    His next job will be to surprise people on the upside. Show he's interesting and has ideas both of which I believe to be true. There's little Sunak can do except be rocked by events. There's no obvious upside for him at all.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    Roger said:

    Starmer's tactics seem to be committing himself to nothing but appearing to be moderate. He had to spend a year or two getting Corbyn out of Labour's system so you can't blame him not doing anything dramatic.

    His next job will be to surprise people on the upside. Show he's interesting and has ideas both of which I believe to be true. There's little Sunak can do except be rocked by events. There's no obvious upside for him at all.

    Does he even need to do that? At the moment it seems like he just has to be bland and beige and let the fact virtually everyone's finally utterly sick of the Tories to do all the heavy lifting for him. Seems to be largely a victory by default coming for him.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,360

    NEW: A deal to end much of the rail strikes chaos is ‘within touching distance’ tonight.

    Ministers have offered RMT a 9% pay rise over 2yrs.

    Also, crucially, demand for trains to be driver-only operated scaled back.

    RMT exec meets Monday to discuss.

    What an utter waste of time this whole thing has been

    That 9% over 2 years is an old offer laughed at by the strikers. The Tory’s are sensible to take driverless trains out of the equation though as that idea has no support from anybody.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,594
    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,198
    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
  • ping said:

    Evening all.

    I've just finished the audible audiobook version of "Spare" by Prince Harry.
    Whatever your opinion of Harry, Meg and the monarchy, whatever "side" you're on, its a profoundly important historical document.

    Thoughts;

    1. Small point, i know, but important - the audiobook version is really excellent. Harry has a gift for narration, probably borne of his public speaking training/experience. Absolutely fantastic narration.

    2. Right at the end, it all makes sense. Why he's published the book. It really is laid out in black and white. He needs security. It costs loads (he was quoted $6m/yr). He feels entitled to it because he had no choice about his profile. Prince Andrew gets security, despite his shameful behaviour. Given what happened to his mum, it should be his right.

    The family chose to withdraw his security. They must suffer the consequences.
    What else is a man to do, but to wash his dirty linen in public in exchange for a hefty paycheque, in such a scenario?

    It does start to sound a bit like borderline blackmail. That is clearly how the institution works. Both Harry and the institution were playing the game. The institution assumed he would fall back into line. Harry called their bluff. It's all got out of hand. That is, basically, the reason why we are reading this extraordinary book.

    3. His early life stuff reaffirms every stereotype us state school kids had/have about public school pricks. I've met lots of people who are some degree of Harry, in their mannerisms, outlook, biases etc. We all have. After reading Spare, I' be embarrassed to send my kid to one of the posher private schools. It doesn't produce normal people, Eton. All the other "top" schools ape it. Why? I get the impression Harry left a lot out about his school days, but from what he did include... well...

    4. Drug use. He's pretty open about this and it, frankly, should be shocking. It's blindingly obvious people knew, including his taxpayer funded security - and probably the police. It really is one rule for them, one for the rest of us. I know this is a fairly liberal site where a lot of posters either don't care, or actively abuse drugs, but it's an issue I personally care a lot about. Andrew Sullivan's most recent podcast on Fentanyl is just shocking. This shit is poision, and it's coming our way. I'm probably even further to the right than Priti Patel on drugs, in stark contrast to most of the rest of my politics. The fact Harry is able to be completely open about his hard drug use indicates how much of a non-issue it is in mainstream culture. I think our society is heading in a disasterous directon and few seem to care.

    Anyway, that's all for now. I have a few other thoughts, but those are my main takeaways that haven't been majored on by the media. Yet.

    What do PB'ers recon? I've been away from PB for a couple of weeks, so have missed the threads where posters chewed the fat on "Spare"

    AIUI security was withdrawn when they stopped being full, card carrying Royals. You are in, or you are out. Of course the book, the interviews, the TV series is about money. I asked before what their income source is. Her career seemed to have stalled, and he didn’t want to be a royal anymore.
    WSJ on Harry & Meghan's income (in under 3 minutes)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSLLYhh9sv4
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,594

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
  • NEW: A deal to end much of the rail strikes chaos is ‘within touching distance’ tonight.

    Ministers have offered RMT a 9% pay rise over 2yrs.

    Also, crucially, demand for trains to be driver-only operated scaled back.

    RMT exec meets Monday to discuss.

    What an utter waste of time this whole thing has been

    That 9% over 2 years is an old offer laughed at by the strikers. The Tory’s are sensible to take driverless trains out of the equation though as that idea has no support from anybody.
    I would be amazed if that is the deal and scaling back driverless trains until the new stock is complaint with safety is sensible

    The head of the rail delivery group in the commons committee yesterday affirmed that it would only happen once driver complaint rolling stock was available
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,360
    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    He won’t. Boris won’t get in either, it will be Penny or Wallace for the general election. Sunak is just electorally unlikeable. The word cloud got to scream “slippery” hasn’t it? Also Sunak and team around him too error prone. At start of PMQs he clears up error he made Sunday? And so on to the next error, which was probably inviting the question “registered with NHS GP, but have you ever used them? Is use of private really in the past as you claimed?”
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,198
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Boris ain’t coming back. The public haven’t forgotten.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,360

    Roger said:

    Starmer's tactics seem to be committing himself to nothing but appearing to be moderate. He had to spend a year or two getting Corbyn out of Labour's system so you can't blame him not doing anything dramatic.

    His next job will be to surprise people on the upside. Show he's interesting and has ideas both of which I believe to be true. There's little Sunak can do except be rocked by events. There's no obvious upside for him at all.

    Does he even need to do that? At the moment it seems like he just has to be bland and beige and let the fact virtually everyone's finally utterly sick of the Tories to do all the heavy lifting for him. Seems to be largely a victory by default coming for him.
    Was it different for Blair? Surely Blair had even more left over left wing baggage and fears of socialist policies in 1997 than Starmer has as baggage today?
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Boris circles like a one legged duck. Even Shapps has ratted on him. History.
  • Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    I expect Sunak to mitigate the defeat and leave office post the GE
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,594

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
    That looked like a preemptive strike for his Tory enemies, he’s come back from worse.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Boris ain’t coming back. The public haven’t forgotten.
    Nor have a majority of his own mps
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,360
    Foxy said:

    Chelsea new signing straight red card

    My maths ain’t great but that’s a 2.5 million pound red card. Lol
    And a 2 - 1 defeat
    It seemed odd to loan a bang out of form youngster for £20m and expect much from the 22 matches. And the media is all “Chelsea thrash rivals in race for UNBELIEVABLE player”

    It’s crazy.
    The regime change at Chelsea, both owners and manager seem quite disasterous. What is the new owners transfer strategy?
    This gives us an opening to ask, is Rogers still there at Foxes? 😈
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,492

    Foxy said:

    Chelsea new signing straight red card

    My maths ain’t great but that’s a 2.5 million pound red card. Lol
    And a 2 - 1 defeat
    It seemed odd to loan a bang out of form youngster for £20m and expect much from the 22 matches. And the media is all “Chelsea thrash rivals in race for UNBELIEVABLE player”

    It’s crazy.
    The regime change at Chelsea, both owners and manager seem quite disasterous. What is the new owners transfer strategy?
    This gives us an opening to ask, is Rogers still there at Foxes? 😈
    Rather hoping one of Chelsea/West Ham/Everton steal him from us!
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
    That looked like a preemptive strike for his Tory enemies, he’s come back from worse.
    You seem convinced that somehow Johnson will regain office

    It is not happening
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,594
    Why are Tory donors chucking millions at Boris? He doesn’t seem done to me. I wish he was, but he’s not. Our Trump.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,594
    edited January 2023

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
    That looked like a preemptive strike for his Tory enemies, he’s come back from worse.
    You seem convinced that somehow Johnson will regain office

    It is not happening
    I hope you’re right, but I fear that might be wishful thinking. He came very close this autumn. He is well financed, His opponents are now weaker. And good grief, he wants it.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,492
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
    That looked like a preemptive strike for his Tory enemies, he’s come back from worse.
    You seem convinced that somehow Johnson will regain office

    It is not happening
    I hope you’re right, but I fear that might be wishful thinking. He came very close this autumn. He is well financed, His opponents are no weaker. And good grief, he wants it.
    There is only one thing that Johnson is good at and pays attention to, his own ambition.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
    That looked like a preemptive strike for his Tory enemies, he’s come back from worse.
    You seem convinced that somehow Johnson will regain office

    It is not happening
    I hope you’re right, but I fear that might be wishful thinking. He came very close this autumn. He is well financed, His opponents are no weaker. And good grief, he wants it.
    It is not wishful thinking anymore than some want Corbyn back

    He has a couple of wealthy backers and Dorries but crucially he does not have the numbers of conservative mps

    Furthermore another leadership election is an extinction event for the conservative party
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,360

    NEW: A deal to end much of the rail strikes chaos is ‘within touching distance’ tonight.

    Ministers have offered RMT a 9% pay rise over 2yrs.

    Also, crucially, demand for trains to be driver-only operated scaled back.

    RMT exec meets Monday to discuss.

    What an utter waste of time this whole thing has been

    That 9% over 2 years is an old offer laughed at by the strikers. The Tory’s are sensible to take driverless trains out of the equation though as that idea has no support from anybody.
    I would be amazed if that is the deal and scaling back driverless trains until the new stock is complaint with safety is sensible

    The head of the rail delivery group in the commons committee yesterday affirmed that it would only happen once driver complaint rolling stock was available
    Nobody fancies the Tories driverless trains Big g not even mail readers
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,791
    edited January 2023

    NEW: A deal to end much of the rail strikes chaos is ‘within touching distance’ tonight.

    Ministers have offered RMT a 9% pay rise over 2yrs.

    Also, crucially, demand for trains to be driver-only operated scaled back.

    RMT exec meets Monday to discuss.

    What an utter waste of time this whole thing has been

    That 9% over 2 years is an old offer laughed at by the strikers. The Tory’s are sensible to take driverless trains out of the equation though as that idea has no support from anybody.
    I would be amazed if that is the deal and scaling back driverless trains until the new stock is complaint with safety is sensible

    The head of the rail delivery group in the commons committee yesterday affirmed that it would only happen once driver complaint rolling stock was available
    Nobody fancies the Tories driverless trains Big g not even mail readers
    They are already in use and widely used in other countries

    Again this is advance use of technology and is the future

    Actually I have just noticed you said driverless when the aim is driver only operated trains, not driverless though that will no doubt come in due course
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,804
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
    That looked like a preemptive strike for his Tory enemies, he’s come back from worse.
    You seem convinced that somehow Johnson will regain office

    It is not happening
    I hope you’re right, but I fear that might be wishful thinking. He came very close this autumn. He is well financed, His opponents are no weaker. And good grief, he wants it.
    There’s something about these ultra tenacious types who just stick around and never give up. Like a political Daniel Cleaver who no matter how annoying, is always there waiting.

    It only takes one moment of vulnerability, when the Tory party (or worse, the country) is on the rebound and has had a few too many, and Boris will be straight in there with the comforting arm around the shoulder. We might say “I really shouldn’t” and “I don’t think this is a good idea” but before we know it Britain will be up the stairs and undressed and he’ll be there, undoing his trousers.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,356
    edited January 2023

    NEW: A deal to end much of the rail strikes chaos is ‘within touching distance’ tonight.

    Ministers have offered RMT a 9% pay rise over 2yrs.

    Also, crucially, demand for trains to be driver-only operated scaled back.

    RMT exec meets Monday to discuss.

    What an utter waste of time this whole thing has been

    So. Effectively 4% and same conditions. Could have been done 6 months ago.
  • dixiedean said:

    NEW: A deal to end much of the rail strikes chaos is ‘within touching distance’ tonight.

    Ministers have offered RMT a 9% pay rise over 2yrs.

    Also, crucially, demand for trains to be driver-only operated scaled back.

    RMT exec meets Monday to discuss.

    What an utter waste of time this whole thing has been

    So. Effectively 4% and same conditions. Could have been done 6 months ago.
    Indeed and if so a big win for the government
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,413
    edited January 2023
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
    That looked like a preemptive strike for his Tory enemies, he’s come back from worse.
    You seem convinced that somehow Johnson will regain office

    It is not happening
    I hope you’re right, but I fear that might be wishful thinking. He came very close this autumn. He is well financed, His opponents are now weaker. And good grief, he wants it.
    If I were Boris I would agree the rumoured deal, give Sunak a clear run to the general election in return for a safe seat in the shires to replace Uxbridge.

    Then let PM Sunak and Chancellor Hunt lead the Tories to defeat and they then own that defeat. Then he can say I told you so, easily become Leader of the Opposition and have fun attacking the government while PM Starmer and Chancellor Reeves have to deal with the economic
    problems and take unpopular decisions
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,356
    edited January 2023

    NEW: A deal to end much of the rail strikes chaos is ‘within touching distance’ tonight.

    Ministers have offered RMT a 9% pay rise over 2yrs.

    Also, crucially, demand for trains to be driver-only operated scaled back.

    RMT exec meets Monday to discuss.

    What an utter waste of time this whole thing has been

    That 9% over 2 years is an old offer laughed at by the strikers. The Tory’s are sensible to take driverless trains out of the equation though as that idea has no support from anybody.
    I would be amazed if that is the deal and scaling back driverless trains until the new stock is complaint with safety is sensible

    The head of the rail delivery group in the commons committee yesterday affirmed that it would only happen once driver complaint rolling stock was available
    Nobody fancies the Tories driverless trains Big g not even mail readers
    They are already in use and widely used in other countries

    Again this is advance use of technology and is the future

    Actually I have just noticed you said driverless when the aim is driver only operated trains, not driverless though that will no doubt come in due course
    How do they work on stations with no barriers or ticket machines? Without huge spending?
    I keep asking this question, but no answer ever comes.
    Who will deal with gangs of drunken blokes?
    Again. Nowt
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,360
    From all those different front page story’s does anything leap out? The tele’s 9% over two years ends the rail strikes, and FTs Wales to solve NHS strikes with1K pay outs are joke headlines as these easily rejected by unions, the Net Zero plan to ban gas boilers in ten years enforcing 6K transition costs is just a work of fiction by the tele. Concern of Johnson trip to meet Zelenskyy seems bigged up by the Guardian.

    Only FTs click bait headline “boardrooms struggle to make sense of the world” interests me as possibly useful.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,360
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
    That looked like a preemptive strike for his Tory enemies, he’s come back from worse.
    You seem convinced that somehow Johnson will regain office

    It is not happening
    I hope you’re right, but I fear that might be wishful thinking. He came very close this autumn. He is well financed, His opponents are now weaker. And good grief, he wants it.
    If I were Boris I would agree the rumoured deal, give Sunak a clear run to the general election in return for a safe seat in the shires to replace Uxbridge.

    Then let Sunak and Hunt lead the Tories to defeat and they then own that defeat. Then he can say I told you so, easily become Leader of the Opposition and have fun attacking the government while Starmer and Reeves have to deal with the economic
    problems and take unpopular decisions
    “easily become Leader‘

    You deliberately wrote it up to sound like a cunning plan from Blackadder?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,356

    dixiedean said:

    NEW: A deal to end much of the rail strikes chaos is ‘within touching distance’ tonight.

    Ministers have offered RMT a 9% pay rise over 2yrs.

    Also, crucially, demand for trains to be driver-only operated scaled back.

    RMT exec meets Monday to discuss.

    What an utter waste of time this whole thing has been

    So. Effectively 4% and same conditions. Could have been done 6 months ago.
    Indeed and if so a big win for the government
    Yes.
    Not really.
    We had that for nowt.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,198
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
    That looked like a preemptive strike for his Tory enemies, he’s come back from worse.
    You seem convinced that somehow Johnson will regain office

    It is not happening
    I hope you’re right, but I fear that might be wishful thinking. He came very close this autumn. He is well financed, His opponents are now weaker. And good grief, he wants it.
    If I were Boris I would agree the rumoured deal, give Sunak a clear run to the general election in return for a safe seat in the shires to replace Uxbridge.

    Then let Sunak and Hunt lead the Tories to defeat and they then own that defeat. Then he can say I told you so, easily become Leader of the Opposition and have fun attacking the government while Starmer and Reeves have to deal with the economic
    problems and take unpopular decisions
    There’s no safe seats left.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,413

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
    That looked like a preemptive strike for his Tory enemies, he’s come back from worse.
    You seem convinced that somehow Johnson will regain office

    It is not happening
    I hope you’re right, but I fear that might be wishful thinking. He came very close this autumn. He is well financed, His opponents are now weaker. And good grief, he wants it.
    If I were Boris I would agree the rumoured deal, give Sunak a clear run to the general election in return for a safe seat in the shires to replace Uxbridge.

    Then let Sunak and Hunt lead the Tories to defeat and they then own that defeat. Then he can say I told you so, easily become Leader of the Opposition and have fun attacking the government while Starmer and Reeves have to deal with the economic
    problems and take unpopular decisions
    There’s no safe seats left.
    There are, most polls still give about 150 to 200+ Tory MPs on the new boundaries
  • dixiedean said:

    NEW: A deal to end much of the rail strikes chaos is ‘within touching distance’ tonight.

    Ministers have offered RMT a 9% pay rise over 2yrs.

    Also, crucially, demand for trains to be driver-only operated scaled back.

    RMT exec meets Monday to discuss.

    What an utter waste of time this whole thing has been

    That 9% over 2 years is an old offer laughed at by the strikers. The Tory’s are sensible to take driverless trains out of the equation though as that idea has no support from anybody.
    I would be amazed if that is the deal and scaling back driverless trains until the new stock is complaint with safety is sensible

    The head of the rail delivery group in the commons committee yesterday affirmed that it would only happen once driver complaint rolling stock was available
    Nobody fancies the Tories driverless trains Big g not even mail readers
    They are already in use and widely used in other countries

    Again this is advance use of technology and is the future

    Actually I have just noticed you said driverless when the aim is driver only operated trains, not driverless though that will no doubt come in due course
    How do they work on stations with no barriers or ticket machines? Without huge spending?
    I keep asking this question, but no answer ever comes.
    I should correct myself from driverless to driver only operated trains

    The head of the rail delivery group explained in committee yesterday that it is was practice in short 2/3 car trains already, but the longer inter city trains etc need the new door camera technology which will be in the new stock which provides the ability for this operation
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,149
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
    That looked like a preemptive strike for his Tory enemies, he’s come back from worse.
    You seem convinced that somehow Johnson will regain office

    It is not happening
    I hope you’re right, but I fear that might be wishful thinking. He came very close this autumn. He is well financed, His opponents are now weaker. And good grief, he wants it.
    If I were Boris I would agree the rumoured deal, give Sunak a clear run to the general election in return for a safe seat in the shires to replace Uxbridge.

    Then let Sunak and Hunt lead the Tories to defeat and they then own that defeat. Then he can say I told you so, easily become Leader of the Opposition and have fun attacking the government while Starmer and Reeves have to deal with the economic
    problems and take unpopular decisions
    Johnson became PM on the 24th July 2019 when the situation and polling for the Tories was dire, yet by December later that year he'd turned everything around and won a large majority.

    It's true that the situation is different now, but I don't think that would stop Johnson from thinking that he'd done it once and he could do it again, and it's clearly a preferable scenario than spending five years in boring, pointless, powerless opposition.

    I can't see him choosing leader of the opposition over PM.
  • HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
    That looked like a preemptive strike for his Tory enemies, he’s come back from worse.
    You seem convinced that somehow Johnson will regain office

    It is not happening
    I hope you’re right, but I fear that might be wishful thinking. He came very close this autumn. He is well financed, His opponents are now weaker. And good grief, he wants it.
    If I were Boris I would agree the rumoured deal, give Sunak a clear run to the general election in return for a safe seat in the shires to replace Uxbridge.

    Then let PM Sunak and Chancellor Hunt lead the Tories to defeat and they then own that defeat. Then he can say I told you so, easily become Leader of the Opposition and have fun attacking the government while PM Starmer and Chancellor Reeves have to deal with the economic
    problems and take unpopular decisions
    If only it was so easy
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,198
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
    That looked like a preemptive strike for his Tory enemies, he’s come back from worse.
    You seem convinced that somehow Johnson will regain office

    It is not happening
    I hope you’re right, but I fear that might be wishful thinking. He came very close this autumn. He is well financed, His opponents are now weaker. And good grief, he wants it.
    If I were Boris I would agree the rumoured deal, give Sunak a clear run to the general election in return for a safe seat in the shires to replace Uxbridge.

    Then let Sunak and Hunt lead the Tories to defeat and they then own that defeat. Then he can say I told you so, easily become Leader of the Opposition and have fun attacking the government while Starmer and Reeves have to deal with the economic
    problems and take unpopular decisions
    There’s no safe seats left.
    There are, most polls still give about 150 to 200+ Tory MPs on the new boundaries
    I was mostly joking, but the next election could be epochal.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,149
    When has it ever worked for a politician to give up on a chance to be PM in favour of becoming leader of the opposition?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,804
    dixiedean said:

    NEW: A deal to end much of the rail strikes chaos is ‘within touching distance’ tonight.

    Ministers have offered RMT a 9% pay rise over 2yrs.

    Also, crucially, demand for trains to be driver-only operated scaled back.

    RMT exec meets Monday to discuss.

    What an utter waste of time this whole thing has been

    That 9% over 2 years is an old offer laughed at by the strikers. The Tory’s are sensible to take driverless trains out of the equation though as that idea has no support from anybody.
    I would be amazed if that is the deal and scaling back driverless trains until the new stock is complaint with safety is sensible

    The head of the rail delivery group in the commons committee yesterday affirmed that it would only happen once driver complaint rolling stock was available
    Nobody fancies the Tories driverless trains Big g not even mail readers
    They are already in use and widely used in other countries

    Again this is advance use of technology and is the future

    Actually I have just noticed you said driverless when the aim is driver only operated trains, not driverless though that will no doubt come in due course
    How do they work on stations with no barriers or ticket machines? Without huge spending?
    I keep asking this question, but no answer ever comes.
    Who will deal with gangs of drunken blokes?
    Again. Nowt
    It seems to work on the DLR which is my main commuter train. There are staff who hop on and off the trains and sometimes check people have touched in and out, and there are oyster machines at each station but no barriers.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,356
    edited January 2023

    dixiedean said:

    NEW: A deal to end much of the rail strikes chaos is ‘within touching distance’ tonight.

    Ministers have offered RMT a 9% pay rise over 2yrs.

    Also, crucially, demand for trains to be driver-only operated scaled back.

    RMT exec meets Monday to discuss.

    What an utter waste of time this whole thing has been

    That 9% over 2 years is an old offer laughed at by the strikers. The Tory’s are sensible to take driverless trains out of the equation though as that idea has no support from anybody.
    I would be amazed if that is the deal and scaling back driverless trains until the new stock is complaint with safety is sensible

    The head of the rail delivery group in the commons committee yesterday affirmed that it would only happen once driver complaint rolling stock was available
    Nobody fancies the Tories driverless trains Big g not even mail readers
    They are already in use and widely used in other countries

    Again this is advance use of technology and is the future

    Actually I have just noticed you said driverless when the aim is driver only operated trains, not driverless though that will no doubt come in due course
    How do they work on stations with no barriers or ticket machines? Without huge spending?
    I keep asking this question, but no answer ever comes.
    I should correct myself from driverless to driver only operated trains

    The head of the rail delivery group explained in committee yesterday that it is was practice in short 2/3 car trains already, but the longer inter city trains etc need the new door camera technology which will be in the new stock which provides the ability for this operation
    So. Your assault or sexual assault will be filmed?
    That's comfort.
    What about rural trains?
    My ex-missus won't take them now. And they have a guard.
  • dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    NEW: A deal to end much of the rail strikes chaos is ‘within touching distance’ tonight.

    Ministers have offered RMT a 9% pay rise over 2yrs.

    Also, crucially, demand for trains to be driver-only operated scaled back.

    RMT exec meets Monday to discuss.

    What an utter waste of time this whole thing has been

    That 9% over 2 years is an old offer laughed at by the strikers. The Tory’s are sensible to take driverless trains out of the equation though as that idea has no support from anybody.
    I would be amazed if that is the deal and scaling back driverless trains until the new stock is complaint with safety is sensible

    The head of the rail delivery group in the commons committee yesterday affirmed that it would only happen once driver complaint rolling stock was available
    Nobody fancies the Tories driverless trains Big g not even mail readers
    They are already in use and widely used in other countries

    Again this is advance use of technology and is the future

    Actually I have just noticed you said driverless when the aim is driver only operated trains, not driverless though that will no doubt come in due course
    How do they work on stations with no barriers or ticket machines? Without huge spending?
    I keep asking this question, but no answer ever comes.
    I should correct myself from driverless to driver only operated trains

    The head of the rail delivery group explained in committee yesterday that it is was practice in short 2/3 car trains already, but the longer inter city trains etc need the new door camera technology which will be in the new stock which provides the ability for this operation
    So. Your assault or sexual assault will be filmed?
    That's comfort.
    Mine !!!!!!!

    I can assure you that will not be me !!!!
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,360

    dixiedean said:

    NEW: A deal to end much of the rail strikes chaos is ‘within touching distance’ tonight.

    Ministers have offered RMT a 9% pay rise over 2yrs.

    Also, crucially, demand for trains to be driver-only operated scaled back.

    RMT exec meets Monday to discuss.

    What an utter waste of time this whole thing has been

    So. Effectively 4% and same conditions. Could have been done 6 months ago.
    Indeed and if so a big win for the government
    Already filed under not happening.

    Why did the telegraph print this? Putting my Thick Of It head on, CCHQ think it’s helpful to get this out there ahead of a better offer government about to announce tomorrow to surprise everyone, that will contrast as very much improved offer in everyone’s eyes?

    As Dixy Deano said, there is no win the Torys can have ending strikes now, if it’s movement from government that could have happened earlier. Where does it leave government arguments of all these painful months, if they surrender their argument in a belated deal?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,804

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
    That looked like a preemptive strike for his Tory enemies, he’s come back from worse.
    You seem convinced that somehow Johnson will regain office

    It is not happening
    I hope you’re right, but I fear that might be wishful thinking. He came very close this autumn. He is well financed, His opponents are now weaker. And good grief, he wants it.
    If I were Boris I would agree the rumoured deal, give Sunak a clear run to the general election in return for a safe seat in the shires to replace Uxbridge.

    Then let Sunak and Hunt lead the Tories to defeat and they then own that defeat. Then he can say I told you so, easily become Leader of the Opposition and have fun attacking the government while Starmer and Reeves have to deal with the economic
    problems and take unpopular decisions
    There’s no safe seats left.
    There are, most polls still give about 150 to 200+ Tory MPs on the new boundaries
    I was mostly joking, but the next election could be epochal.
    I’ll be fascinated to see what happens geographically. Could be the election when long standing underlying trends really come to the surface. Like 2015 for the SNP.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,356
    I struggle to make sense of the world too.
  • dixiedean said:

    NEW: A deal to end much of the rail strikes chaos is ‘within touching distance’ tonight.

    Ministers have offered RMT a 9% pay rise over 2yrs.

    Also, crucially, demand for trains to be driver-only operated scaled back.

    RMT exec meets Monday to discuss.

    What an utter waste of time this whole thing has been

    So. Effectively 4% and same conditions. Could have been done 6 months ago.
    Indeed and if so a big win for the government
    Already filed under not happening.

    Why did the telegraph print this? Putting my Thick Of It head on, CCHQ think it’s helpful to get this out there ahead of a better offer government about to announce tomorrow to surprise everyone, that will contrast as very much improved offer in everyone’s eyes?

    As Dixy Deano said, there is no win the Torys can have ending strikes now, if it’s movement from government that could have happened earlier. Where does it leave government arguments of all these painful months, if they surrender their argument in a belated deal?
    I really cannot see it happening either though Lynch has said tonight they are working on a deal and sounded more positive
  • dixiedean said:

    I struggle to make sense of the world too.

    You and many millions of us
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,360
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
    That looked like a preemptive strike for his Tory enemies, he’s come back from worse.
    You seem convinced that somehow Johnson will regain office

    It is not happening
    I hope you’re right, but I fear that might be wishful thinking. He came very close this autumn. He is well financed, His opponents are now weaker. And good grief, he wants it.
    If I were Boris I would agree the rumoured deal, give Sunak a clear run to the general election in return for a safe seat in the shires to replace Uxbridge.

    Then let Sunak and Hunt lead the Tories to defeat and they then own that defeat. Then he can say I told you so, easily become Leader of the Opposition and have fun attacking the government while Starmer and Reeves have to deal with the economic
    problems and take unpopular decisions
    There’s no safe seats left.
    There are, most polls still give about 150 to 200+ Tory MPs on the new boundaries
    Is that quote inclusive or exclusive of anti Tory tactical voting? 😈
  • Driver only trains seem to save no money whatsoever so I struggle to see the point. Can anyone explain?
  • Even the DLR has a member of staff on every train that can drive them. They are paid the same as Underground staff.

    Driverless does not exist.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,025
    As I approach my 8th decade I realise I know nothing. Today I came across Sigismond Thalberg. Who he you say? Probably the greatest pianist ever ( pace Liszt). He was also a composer - start with the piano concerto in F minor.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,360

    Even the DLR has a member of staff on every train that can drive them. They are paid the same as Underground staff.

    Driverless does not exist.

    “Like the NUM, the rail unions are engaged in a futile effort to preserve jobs which in many cases are no longer needed and should have been abolished decades ago. Trains have not needed guards since the mid 19th century when the invention of block signalling did away with the need to defend a broken-down train by running back down the line to warn approaching trains. Many commuter trains have run perfectly safely since the early 1980s with driver-only operation. As for drivers, in many cases they are not required, either. Driverless trains are not futuristic – they have existed for over 40 years. There are now over 100 metro systems in the world which run without drivers – at much lower expense and with the threat of strikes eliminated. On lightly-used rural lines, where traffic levels do not justify investment in driverless operation, it still makes sense to employ drivers, but there is no excuse for doing so on the London Underground.“

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/it-s-time-for-boris-to-take-on-the-rail-unions/
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Sandpit said:

    The quite predicable law of unindented consequences, part 36:

    Boom in classic car sales caused by ULEZ introduction in London, as buyers flock to exempt older cars…

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/drivers-using-classic-cars-beat-sadiq-khans-ulez-charges/

    Everyone driving around in 40-year-old cars as daily drivers, will do what exactly for pollution in the capital?

    It's not going to be "everyone" because a 40 year old car is not a viable daily in London. At that age they pre-date ubiquitous fuel injection/electronic ignition, they all rust and none of the good examples are cheap. Only a few brands and models have deep OEM/aftermarket support so it's a very limited market. 924 or very early E30 might be sort of workable if you get a South African/Australian grey import but, again, not cheap and not for everyone. There is never going to be more than a handful of people doing this.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,413

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
    That looked like a preemptive strike for his Tory enemies, he’s come back from worse.
    You seem convinced that somehow Johnson will regain office

    It is not happening
    I hope you’re right, but I fear that might be wishful thinking. He came very close this autumn. He is well financed, His opponents are now weaker. And good grief, he wants it.
    If I were Boris I would agree the rumoured deal, give Sunak a clear run to the general election in return for a safe seat in the shires to replace Uxbridge.

    Then let Sunak and Hunt lead the Tories to defeat and they then own that defeat. Then he can say I told you so, easily become Leader of the Opposition and have fun attacking the government while Starmer and Reeves have to deal with the economic
    problems and take unpopular decisions
    There’s no safe seats left.
    There are, most polls still give about 150 to 200+ Tory MPs on the new boundaries
    Is that quote inclusive or exclusive of anti Tory tactical voting? 😈
    Though you also need to account for 7% voting RefUK and DKs who may return to Tory
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,413

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
    That looked like a preemptive strike for his Tory enemies, he’s come back from worse.
    You seem convinced that somehow Johnson will regain office

    It is not happening
    I hope you’re right, but I fear that might be wishful thinking. He came very close this autumn. He is well financed, His opponents are now weaker. And good grief, he wants it.
    If I were Boris I would agree the rumoured deal, give Sunak a clear run to the general election in return for a safe seat in the shires to replace Uxbridge.

    Then let Sunak and Hunt lead the Tories to defeat and they then own that defeat. Then he can say I told you so, easily become Leader of the Opposition and have fun attacking the government while Starmer and Reeves have to deal with the economic
    problems and take unpopular decisions
    There’s no safe seats left.
    There are, most polls still give about 150 to 200+ Tory MPs on the new boundaries
    I was mostly joking, but the next election could be epochal.
    Unless RefUK overtake the Tories, it won't
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,627
    .
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
    That looked like a preemptive strike for his Tory enemies, he’s come back from worse.
    You seem convinced that somehow Johnson will regain office

    It is not happening
    I hope you’re right, but I fear that might be wishful thinking. He came very close this autumn. He is well financed, His opponents are now weaker. And good grief, he wants it.
    If I were Boris I would agree the rumoured deal, give Sunak a clear run to the general election in return for a safe seat in the shires to replace Uxbridge.

    Then let PM Sunak and Chancellor Hunt lead the Tories to defeat and they then own that defeat. Then he can say I told you so, easily become Leader of the Opposition and have fun attacking the government while PM Starmer and Chancellor Reeves have to deal with the economic problems and take unpopular decisions
    Pretty pathetic that he wants to swap out of his seat to a safer one. Doesn’t shout leadership to me,

    And Starmer could just say (in politer parliamentary language) “fuck off you old has been; we’re just trying to clear up your mess”.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,413

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
    That looked like a preemptive strike for his Tory enemies, he’s come back from worse.
    You seem convinced that somehow Johnson will regain office

    It is not happening
    I hope you’re right, but I fear that might be wishful thinking. He came very close this autumn. He is well financed, His opponents are now weaker. And good grief, he wants it.
    If I were Boris I would agree the rumoured deal, give Sunak a clear run to the general election in return for a safe seat in the shires to replace Uxbridge.

    Then let Sunak and Hunt lead the Tories to defeat and they then own that defeat. Then he can say I told you so, easily become Leader of the Opposition and have fun attacking the government while Starmer and Reeves have to deal with the economic
    problems and take unpopular decisions
    Johnson became PM on the 24th July 2019 when the situation and polling for the Tories was dire, yet by December later that year he'd turned everything around and won a large majority.

    It's true that the situation is different now, but I don't think that would stop Johnson from thinking that he'd done it once and he could do it again, and it's clearly a preferable scenario than spending five years in boring, pointless, powerless opposition.

    I can't see him choosing leader of the opposition over PM.
    If he was playing the longer game he is more likely to become PM for a significant period after Leader of the Opposition to an unpopular Starmer government than a fag end PM for a month or 2 who still leads the Tories to near certain defeat in 2024
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,360
    slade said:

    As I approach my 8th decade I realise I know nothing. Today I came across Sigismond Thalberg. Who he you say? Probably the greatest pianist ever ( pace Liszt). He was also a composer - start with the piano concerto in F minor.

    Thanks as ever for the recommendations. When I put them in YouTube I appreciate it shows a lot of recommendations of similar music to try.

    I have lived my entire life with internet, and YouTube, but I often wonder what being music fan was like a few years before internet, like in 1970s and sixties? Because all those recommendations to actual recordings down the side on YouTube, could never have been in a record shop, library, or even books and magazines pointing to a library to explore as extensive as now available on YouTube and internet. So you shouldn’t be so hard on yourself Slade, it’s only in mature internet decades you could know these composers and their works even existed, let alone the chance to hear it?

    I have one for you.

    Wandering your ways and byways of Late Romanticism, have you chanced upon the atmospheric and “very late romantic” music of Hans Pfitzner?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udJ5awJDiUo

  • Even the DLR has a member of staff on every train that can drive them. They are paid the same as Underground staff.

    Driverless does not exist.

    “Like the NUM, the rail unions are engaged in a futile effort to preserve jobs which in many cases are no longer needed and should have been abolished decades ago. Trains have not needed guards since the mid 19th century when the invention of block signalling did away with the need to defend a broken-down train by running back down the line to warn approaching trains. Many commuter trains have run perfectly safely since the early 1980s with driver-only operation. As for drivers, in many cases they are not required, either. Driverless trains are not futuristic – they have existed for over 40 years. There are now over 100 metro systems in the world which run without drivers – at much lower expense and with the threat of strikes eliminated. On lightly-used rural lines, where traffic levels do not justify investment in driverless operation, it still makes sense to employ drivers, but there is no excuse for doing so on the London Underground.“

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/it-s-time-for-boris-to-take-on-the-rail-unions/
    You're not arguing against the point I actually made - like a good Tory.

    The Government wanted driver-only operation but they also claimed there would be no job losses as guards would be assigned another role and pay would remain the same. So it doesn't actually achieve anything except change for the sake of it.

    The Government has a separate argument about driverless trains but as has been pointed out to them, this concept doesn't actually exist and wouldn't save any money. You'd still have drivers on the trains being paid the same - as on the DLR - they just wouldn't be running the trains all the time.

    This is basically already what happens on certain parts of the Underground where they have CBTC
  • CorrectHorseBattery3CorrectHorseBattery3 Posts: 2,757
    edited January 2023
    Any argument that driverless trains would improve service quality, or reduce costs clearly doesn't know a thing about how the railways actually work. And I present to you the muppets at the DfT.

    Get them out, we need a proper StateCo railway like Japan (formally) or Switzerland.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,360
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
    That looked like a preemptive strike for his Tory enemies, he’s come back from worse.
    You seem convinced that somehow Johnson will regain office

    It is not happening
    I hope you’re right, but I fear that might be wishful thinking. He came very close this autumn. He is well financed, His opponents are now weaker. And good grief, he wants it.
    If I were Boris I would agree the rumoured deal, give Sunak a clear run to the general election in return for a safe seat in the shires to replace Uxbridge.

    Then let Sunak and Hunt lead the Tories to defeat and they then own that defeat. Then he can say I told you so, easily become Leader of the Opposition and have fun attacking the government while Starmer and Reeves have to deal with the economic
    problems and take unpopular decisions
    There’s no safe seats left.
    There are, most polls still give about 150 to 200+ Tory MPs on the new boundaries
    Is that quote inclusive or exclusive of anti Tory tactical voting? 😈
    Though you also need to account for 7% voting RefUK and DKs who may return to Tory
    Or not return to Tory.

    Why are you so flipping confident you are going to swallow them all back up again?

    The government goes into the next election having let Tory voters down on growth, taxation, borrowing, immigration, economic stability, processing asylum and stopping small boat invasion, incomes/cost of living, health service, education service, any dispute on these? Do you want some more?

    So why can’t there be a 9%+ anti Tory reform vote this time? Everything actually points to the logic of there being one?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,502

    Even the DLR has a member of staff on every train that can drive them. They are paid the same as Underground staff.

    Driverless does not exist.

    The Lille metro is genuinely driverless, and has been since inception in 1983:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lille_Metro
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,360

    Driver only trains seem to save no money whatsoever so I struggle to see the point. Can anyone explain?

    Yes. I can explain!

    I have narrowed it down to two possible answers.

    It saves money, apparently at the loss of nothing except Union losing members jobs they have failed to defend.

    https://www.railmagazine.com/trains/current-trains/the-pros-and-cons-of-driver-only-operation

    Alternatively it’s an ongoing argument for last sixty years not resolved yet whether safety gets worse or not.

    I don’t know if this helps at all.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,627
    slade said:

    As I approach my 8th decade I realise I know nothing. Today I came across Sigismond Thalberg. Who he you say? Probably the greatest pianist ever ( pace Liszt). He was also a composer - start with the piano concerto in F minor.

    The flip side of that is discovering stuff which is fresh to you.

    The musical scene in the great European capitals of the 1830s and ‘40s must have been thrilling.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,262
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
    That looked like a preemptive strike for his Tory enemies, he’s come back from worse.
    You seem convinced that somehow Johnson will regain office

    It is not happening
    I hope you’re right, but I fear that might be wishful thinking. He came very close this autumn. He is well financed, His opponents are now weaker. And good grief, he wants it.
    If I were Boris I would agree the rumoured deal, give Sunak a clear run to the general election in return for a safe seat in the shires to replace Uxbridge.

    Then let PM Sunak and Chancellor Hunt lead the Tories to defeat and they then own that defeat. Then he can say I told you so, easily become Leader of the Opposition and have fun attacking the government while PM Starmer and Chancellor Reeves have to deal with the economic
    problems and take unpopular decisions
    Getting Sunak and Hunt to own the defeat is the only reason for Boris not to stand. However, he may feel confident enough that having seen off Sunak he can see off Starmer too. And if he stands aside, what if someone else challenges?

    It seems from this latest story (it's all in the Times, the big Sunak paper) that it's all getting very panicky in team Sunak. This story is Sunak offering Boris a deal.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,025

    slade said:

    As I approach my 8th decade I realise I know nothing. Today I came across Sigismond Thalberg. Who he you say? Probably the greatest pianist ever ( pace Liszt). He was also a composer - start with the piano concerto in F minor.

    Thanks as ever for the recommendations. When I put them in YouTube I appreciate it shows a lot of recommendations of similar music to try.

    I have lived my entire life with internet, and YouTube, but I often wonder what being music fan was like a few years before internet, like in 1970s and sixties? Because all those recommendations to actual recordings down the side on YouTube, could never have been in a record shop, library, or even books and magazines pointing to a library to explore as extensive as now available on YouTube and internet. So you shouldn’t be so hard on yourself Slade, it’s only in mature internet decades you could know these composers and their works even existed, let alone the chance to hear it?

    I have one for you.

    Wandering your ways and byways of Late Romanticism, have you chanced upon the atmospheric and “very late romantic” music of Hans Pfitzner?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udJ5awJDiUo

    That score is very simple ( OK atmospheric). Just look at the complexity of Thalberg.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,642
    carnforth said:

    Even the DLR has a member of staff on every train that can drive them. They are paid the same as Underground staff.

    Driverless does not exist.

    The Lille metro is genuinely driverless, and has been since inception in 1983:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lille_Metro
    There are a number of driverless train systems around the world. As far as I am aware they were all built from the ground up to be like that.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,502

    carnforth said:

    Even the DLR has a member of staff on every train that can drive them. They are paid the same as Underground staff.

    Driverless does not exist.

    The Lille metro is genuinely driverless, and has been since inception in 1983:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lille_Metro
    There are a number of driverless train systems around the world. As far as I am aware they were all built from the ground up to be like that.
    Oh yes, I don't think anyone is going to be converting the tube to driverless ever. My point is that the DLR needing a TFL operative on each train at all times to help close the doors was either a deliberate design decision or a union sop: safe driverless systems exist, and predate the DLR.
  • Any argument that driverless trains would improve service quality, or reduce costs clearly doesn't know a thing about how the railways actually work. And I present to you the muppets at the DfT.

    Get them out, we need a proper StateCo railway like Japan (formally) or Switzerland.

    Japan have had driverless trains in service since 1981

    And anyway, the argument isn't about Driverless trains but driver only trains. These have been common in many European countries for decades. The Netherlands introduced driver only trains in the 1950s.
  • ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    This society is so unbalanced, old people get everything and young people get screwed over. Time to even the playing field.

    Do you know how much the state pension is?
    Too much, they've had everything handed to them.
    £141.85 per week provided they have contributed towards it for almost their entire working life (otherwise they get less).

    You think that is too much for 35 odd years contributions to it?
    Depends on the size of the contributions, I would have thought.

    And whilst I wouldn't want to go too far with this, there is something awkward about the way that a generation who have tended to vote for low taxes and frugal services and benefits through their working lives are now shocked and appalled at the frugality of pensions and creakyness of health and social care now they are using them more.
    Just on the basic split of Labour/Tory I don't think that is as stark as you claim.

    a 75 year old today would first have been eligible to vote in an election in 1965

    Since then the country has voted 5 times for Labour, 7 times for the Tories and 3 times for a minority or coalition.

    And in how many of those elections were people voting for or against taxes. Certainly not in 1979 (winter of Discontent). Nor 1997 (Tory sleaze and ineptitude) or 2019 (Brexit), which are three of the most obvious examples. Indeed the only one I could say for sure where people were voting specifically on a tax policy was May in 2017 where she freaked people out with her 'Death tax'.
    Somebody born in 1947 would have been eligible to vote from 1968. The voting age wasn't lowered to 18 until 1969.*

    *discounting the 1918 election where all ex-servicemen regardless of age were enfranchised.
    I didn't know that! Did they still have the vote in subsequent GE? It must have shifted the electorate much younger and working class.
    Well, yes, because they would almost all have achieved 21 by the time 1922 rocked around, and the same act extended almost universal male suffrage to 21 year olds.

    I'm not sure whether they were granted it for life or for five years though, so whether it was official or just the natural course of events. Presumably life on the assumption - albeit a false one - that they were all over 18 so within three years would become eligible anyway.

    There was a bizarre converse to it - conscientious objectors who had not taken alternative service were stripped of the vote for five years. So they couldn't vote in *any* of the next three general elections.
    Thanks for that. Excellent facts that I'd not heard at all before. Fascinating.
    It was based on the following logic:

    1) The war would be ongoing at the time of the election;

    2) The election would however be about shaping the subsequent course of British society;

    3) Therefore, the votes should be cast by those who had borne the greatest burden, i.e. those in the services, and those who had worked in war industries. (This was sued to justify giving women the vote, although ironically most enfranchised women hadn't worked in war industries.)

    4) On the other hand, those who hadn't done their bit didn't deserve a say, and should be stripped of the right to vote for at least a short time.

    Remember, until certainly 1885 was very much a privilege not a right, so the logic seemed reasonable to most politicians. Even so, De Groot called 4 'an act of conspicuous pique.'

    It turned out, of course, that 1 and 2 were false assumptions, but they didn't seem unreasonable when the planning was underway.
    I think there were only 16 000 CO's in WW1 so only a few dozen per constituency. As Ireland didn't have conscription, presumably the voting demographics there were quite different to GB.
    Given there was extraordinarily widespread and systematic fraud in just about every Irish constituency in 1918 it's hard to be sure. But Ireland was always something of a case apart.

    It's my understanding that the Irish electorate in 1918 was enfranchised on the same terms as the rest of the UK - it's just there were no conscientious objectors registered - but if somebody can show me otherwise I'm happy to be corrected.

    More surprisingly perhaps the act didn't AFAIK strip anyone convicted of participating in the Easter Rising of the vote.
    In 1918 general election, out of 105 seats in Ireland, 25 were uncontested. So no fraud in those seats.

    And what is your evidence for "extraordinarily widespread and systematic fraud" in that election?

    Not saying there was zero fraud, just that it was NOT as prevalent as you just said.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,025
    While we wait for the incompetant officials in Plymouth we have a Lib Dem gain in Wells City council.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,891
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Will Sunak make it to 12 months. I’m not so sure.

    I’m pretty sure the die is cast now. Sunak will fight the election, lose and depart. The only issue is how bad the defeat is. Even if there is a hint of green shoots in the economy, most have been fecked over already, and the green shoots won’t mean a thing.
    It might not be his choice. He failing and unloved. He’s vulnerable, whilst Boris circles.
    Johnson is over not least following the last 24 headlines and ITV investigations into his partying behaviour
    That looked like a preemptive strike for his Tory enemies, he’s come back from worse.
    You seem convinced that somehow Johnson will regain office

    It is not happening
    I hope you’re right, but I fear that might be wishful thinking. He came very close this autumn. He is well financed, His opponents are now weaker. And good grief, he wants it.
    If I were Boris I would agree the rumoured deal, give Sunak a clear run to the general election in return for a safe seat in the shires to replace Uxbridge.

    Then let Sunak and Hunt lead the Tories to defeat and they then own that defeat. Then he can say I told you so, easily become Leader of the Opposition and have fun attacking the government while Starmer and Reeves have to deal with the economic
    problems and take unpopular decisions
    There’s no safe seats left.
    There are, most polls still give about 150 to 200+ Tory MPs on the new boundaries
    But how many of these would be "safe", as opposed to marginal?
  • slade said:

    As I approach my 8th decade I realise I know nothing. Today I came across Sigismond Thalberg. Who he you say? Probably the greatest pianist ever ( pace Liszt). He was also a composer - start with the piano concerto in F minor.

    Thanks as ever for the recommendations. When I put them in YouTube I appreciate it shows a lot of recommendations of similar music to try.

    I have lived my entire life with internet, and YouTube, but I often wonder what being music fan was like a few years before internet, like in 1970s and sixties? Because all those recommendations to actual recordings down the side on YouTube, could never have been in a record shop, library, or even books and magazines pointing to a library to explore as extensive as now available on YouTube and internet. So you shouldn’t be so hard on yourself Slade, it’s only in mature internet decades you could know these composers and their works even existed, let alone the chance to hear it?

    I have one for you.

    Wandering your ways and byways of Late Romanticism, have you chanced upon the atmospheric and “very late romantic” music of Hans Pfitzner?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udJ5awJDiUo

    Having grown up in the 70s with a passion for music of all kinds I suppose the answer is word of mouth. We talked about music ALL the time. It was our main topic of conversation daily when we were at school. We swapped tapes continuously to share the music around. And you read the music press and specialised magazines and papers depending on your musical taste. Not just pop and rock but Jazz, folk and classical. As I mentioned the other day I have dozens of versions of Beethoven's Opus 61 and most of those I obtained before the advent of the internet. There were also mail order services that you could sign up to which would send you music from artists you had never even heard of. One reason I still get music on vinyl and CD is that I have a completely irrational fear that one day the online systems will fail. At least then hopefully I will still have all those hard copies of the music to play.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,025

    slade said:

    As I approach my 8th decade I realise I know nothing. Today I came across Sigismond Thalberg. Who he you say? Probably the greatest pianist ever ( pace Liszt). He was also a composer - start with the piano concerto in F minor.

    Thanks as ever for the recommendations. When I put them in YouTube I appreciate it shows a lot of recommendations of similar music to try.

    I have lived my entire life with internet, and YouTube, but I often wonder what being music fan was like a few years before internet, like in 1970s and sixties? Because all those recommendations to actual recordings down the side on YouTube, could never have been in a record shop, library, or even books and magazines pointing to a library to explore as extensive as now available on YouTube and internet. So you shouldn’t be so hard on yourself Slade, it’s only in mature internet decades you could know these composers and their works even existed, let alone the chance to hear it?

    I have one for you.

    Wandering your ways and byways of Late Romanticism, have you chanced upon the atmospheric and “very late romantic” music of Hans Pfitzner?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udJ5awJDiUo

    Having grown up in the 70s with a passion for music of all kinds I suppose the answer is word of mouth. We talked about music ALL the time. It was our main topic of conversation daily when we were at school. We swapped tapes continuously to share the music around. And you read the music press and specialised magazines and papers depending on your musical taste. Not just pop and rock but Jazz, folk and classical. As I mentioned the other day I have dozens of versions of Beethoven's Opus 61 and most of those I obtained before the advent of the internet. There were also mail order services that you could sign up to which would send you music from artists you had never even heard of. One reason I still get music on vinyl and CD is that I have a completely irrational fear that one day the online systems will fail. At least then hopefully I will still have all those hard copies of the music to play.

    slade said:

    As I approach my 8th decade I realise I know nothing. Today I came across Sigismond Thalberg. Who he you say? Probably the greatest pianist ever ( pace Liszt). He was also a composer - start with the piano concerto in F minor.

    Thanks as ever for the recommendations. When I put them in YouTube I appreciate it shows a lot of recommendations of similar music to try.

    I have lived my entire life with internet, and YouTube, but I often wonder what being music fan was like a few years before internet, like in 1970s and sixties? Because all those recommendations to actual recordings down the side on YouTube, could never have been in a record shop, library, or even books and magazines pointing to a library to explore as extensive as now available on YouTube and internet. So you shouldn’t be so hard on yourself Slade, it’s only in mature internet decades you could know these composers and their works even existed, let alone the chance to hear it?

    I have one for you.

    Wandering your ways and byways of Late Romanticism, have you chanced upon the atmospheric and “very late romantic” music of Hans Pfitzner?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udJ5awJDiUo

    Having grown up in the 70s with a passion for music of all kinds I suppose the answer is word of mouth. We talked about music ALL the time. It was our main topic of conversation daily when we were at school. We swapped tapes continuously to share the music around. And you read the music press and specialised magazines and papers depending on your musical taste. Not just pop and rock but Jazz, folk and classical. As I mentioned the other day I have dozens of versions of Beethoven's Opus 61 and most of those I obtained before the advent of the internet. There were also mail order services that you could sign up to which would send you music from artists you had never even heard of. One reason I still get music on vinyl and CD is that I have a completely irrational fear that one day the online systems will fail. At least then hopefully I will still have all those hard copies of the music to play.
    Entirely agree. I have a large collection of 78s, tapes, and CDs of classical music and popular music which I play from time to time. But it is subject to wear and tear and will eventually be impossible to play.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,025
    At last. Green gain in Plymouth.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,025
    Big Labour gain in Plymouth. Tories must be worried.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,025
    slade said:

    Big Labour gain in Plymouth. Tories must be worried.

    They lost almost half their previous vote.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,025
    Good night all.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,190

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    This society is so unbalanced, old people get everything and young people get screwed over. Time to even the playing field.

    Do you know how much the state pension is?
    Too much, they've had everything handed to them.
    £141.85 per week provided they have contributed towards it for almost their entire working life (otherwise they get less).

    You think that is too much for 35 odd years contributions to it?
    Depends on the size of the contributions, I would have thought.

    And whilst I wouldn't want to go too far with this, there is something awkward about the way that a generation who have tended to vote for low taxes and frugal services and benefits through their working lives are now shocked and appalled at the frugality of pensions and creakyness of health and social care now they are using them more.
    Just on the basic split of Labour/Tory I don't think that is as stark as you claim.

    a 75 year old today would first have been eligible to vote in an election in 1965

    Since then the country has voted 5 times for Labour, 7 times for the Tories and 3 times for a minority or coalition.

    And in how many of those elections were people voting for or against taxes. Certainly not in 1979 (winter of Discontent). Nor 1997 (Tory sleaze and ineptitude) or 2019 (Brexit), which are three of the most obvious examples. Indeed the only one I could say for sure where people were voting specifically on a tax policy was May in 2017 where she freaked people out with her 'Death tax'.
    Somebody born in 1947 would have been eligible to vote from 1968. The voting age wasn't lowered to 18 until 1969.*

    *discounting the 1918 election where all ex-servicemen regardless of age were enfranchised.
    I didn't know that! Did they still have the vote in subsequent GE? It must have shifted the electorate much younger and working class.
    Well, yes, because they would almost all have achieved 21 by the time 1922 rocked around, and the same act extended almost universal male suffrage to 21 year olds.

    I'm not sure whether they were granted it for life or for five years though, so whether it was official or just the natural course of events. Presumably life on the assumption - albeit a false one - that they were all over 18 so within three years would become eligible anyway.

    There was a bizarre converse to it - conscientious objectors who had not taken alternative service were stripped of the vote for five years. So they couldn't vote in *any* of the next three general elections.
    Thanks for that. Excellent facts that I'd not heard at all before. Fascinating.
    It was based on the following logic:

    1) The war would be ongoing at the time of the election;

    2) The election would however be about shaping the subsequent course of British society;

    3) Therefore, the votes should be cast by those who had borne the greatest burden, i.e. those in the services, and those who had worked in war industries. (This was sued to justify giving women the vote, although ironically most enfranchised women hadn't worked in war industries.)

    4) On the other hand, those who hadn't done their bit didn't deserve a say, and should be stripped of the right to vote for at least a short time.

    Remember, until certainly 1885 was very much a privilege not a right, so the logic seemed reasonable to most politicians. Even so, De Groot called 4 'an act of conspicuous pique.'

    It turned out, of course, that 1 and 2 were false assumptions, but they didn't seem unreasonable when the planning was underway.
    I think there were only 16 000 CO's in WW1 so only a few dozen per constituency. As Ireland didn't have conscription, presumably the voting demographics there were quite different to GB.
    Given there was extraordinarily widespread and systematic fraud in just about every Irish constituency in 1918 it's hard to be sure. But Ireland was always something of a case apart.

    It's my understanding that the Irish electorate in 1918 was enfranchised on the same terms as the rest of the UK - it's just there were no conscientious objectors registered - but if somebody can show me otherwise I'm happy to be corrected.

    More surprisingly perhaps the act didn't AFAIK strip anyone convicted of participating in the Easter Rising of the vote.
    In 1918 general election, out of 105 seats in Ireland, 25 were uncontested. So no fraud in those seats.

    And what is your evidence for "extraordinarily widespread and systematic fraud" in that election?

    Not saying there was zero fraud, just that it was NOT as prevalent as you just said.
    Sinn Fein admitted to it!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,190

    Even the DLR has a member of staff on every train that can drive them. They are paid the same as Underground staff.

    Driverless does not exist.

    “Like the NUM, the rail unions are engaged in a futile effort to preserve jobs which in many cases are no longer needed and should have been abolished decades ago. Trains have not needed guards since the mid 19th century when the invention of block signalling did away with the need to defend a broken-down train by running back down the line to warn approaching trains. Many commuter trains have run perfectly safely since the early 1980s with driver-only operation. As for drivers, in many cases they are not required, either. Driverless trains are not futuristic – they have existed for over 40 years. There are now over 100 metro systems in the world which run without drivers – at much lower expense and with the threat of strikes eliminated. On lightly-used rural lines, where traffic levels do not justify investment in driverless operation, it still makes sense to employ drivers, but there is no excuse for doing so on the London Underground.“

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/it-s-time-for-boris-to-take-on-the-rail-unions/
    Since the article overlooks the fact that the guard was in charge of the main brake - for very good operational reasons - I think most of the rest would probably be rubbish as well.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,097

    NEW: A deal to end much of the rail strikes chaos is ‘within touching distance’ tonight.

    Ministers have offered RMT a 9% pay rise over 2yrs.

    Also, crucially, demand for trains to be driver-only operated scaled back.

    RMT exec meets Monday to discuss.

    What an utter waste of time this whole thing has been

    That 9% over 2 years is an old offer laughed at by the strikers. The Tory’s are sensible to take driverless trains out of the equation though as that idea has no support from anybody.
    It has very strong support from me.

    And it's not driverless trains either- its driver only operated.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,097

    Driver only trains seem to save no money whatsoever so I struggle to see the point. Can anyone explain?

    Yes, the driver operates the opening and closing of doors at each station using CCTV and automatic/selective door operation. You need the stepping and gauging to be right at each station and its then very safe.

    It reduces dwell time and makes dispatch at each station faster, increasing frequency. It also saves the cost of having a guard do it with their own eyes and a flag and whistle, which is now antiquated.

    It's exactly how Crossrail operates, which is now a suburban route as well as an urban metro.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,097

    Any argument that driverless trains would improve service quality, or reduce costs clearly doesn't know a thing about how the railways actually work. And I present to you the muppets at the DfT.

    Get them out, we need a proper StateCo railway like Japan (formally) or Switzerland.

    Japan have had driverless trains in service since 1981

    And anyway, the argument isn't about Driverless trains but driver only trains. These have been common in many European countries for decades. The Netherlands introduced driver only trains in the 1950s.
    If we want to be able to continue to afford our rail network (which at the moment consumes a massive taxpayer subsidy) we must modernise it, or face higher taxes, service reductions and potentially even closures.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,097

    Even the DLR has a member of staff on every train that can drive them. They are paid the same as Underground staff.

    Driverless does not exist.

    “Like the NUM, the rail unions are engaged in a futile effort to preserve jobs which in many cases are no longer needed and should have been abolished decades ago. Trains have not needed guards since the mid 19th century when the invention of block signalling did away with the need to defend a broken-down train by running back down the line to warn approaching trains. Many commuter trains have run perfectly safely since the early 1980s with driver-only operation. As for drivers, in many cases they are not required, either. Driverless trains are not futuristic – they have existed for over 40 years. There are now over 100 metro systems in the world which run without drivers – at much lower expense and with the threat of strikes eliminated. On lightly-used rural lines, where traffic levels do not justify investment in driverless operation, it still makes sense to employ drivers, but there is no excuse for doing so on the London Underground.“

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/it-s-time-for-boris-to-take-on-the-rail-unions/
    You're not arguing against the point I actually made - like a good Tory.

    The Government wanted driver-only operation but they also claimed there would be no job losses as guards would be assigned another role and pay would remain the same. So it doesn't actually achieve anything except change for the sake of it.

    The Government has a separate argument about driverless trains but as has been pointed out to them, this concept doesn't actually exist and wouldn't save any money. You'd still have drivers on the trains being paid the same - as on the DLR - they just wouldn't be running the trains all the time.

    This is basically already what happens on certain parts of the Underground where they have CBTC
    The DLR has 'passenger services agents', who usually act to check tickets/ disturbances but only drive manually to get to/from the depot and in case of emergency, and they are paid much less than tube drivers.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,356
    Big swing Con to Labour in Plymouth.
    27.2%.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,804
    edited January 2023
    The trouble is obviously that we have infrastructure and rolling stock that were designed for more labour intensive times, so it’s not by any means simple to move away from this.

    However across most if not all industries one of our biggest problems is low productivity and insufficient automation. In simple terms (and you can always find short term exceptions) anything that replaces a human with a machine has a long term positive effect on economic growth and the quality of the jobs that remain. There is often a negative initial effect on product quality or customer service as we go from artisanal to industrial, but that usually resolves itself after a while.

    Every phase of development since the industrial revolution has shown this to be the case in hindsight.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,412
    GDP up 0.1% in November. Unexpected good news.
This discussion has been closed.