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The numbers do add up for Sunak – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,803
edited January 2023 in General
The numbers do add up for Sunak – politicalbetting.com

Nearly half of Britons (48%) support Rishi Sunak's intention to ensure all children will have to study some form of maths until they are 18 All Britons: 48% support / 37% oppose18 to 24 year-olds: 34% / 50%65+ year-olds: 61% / 28% https://t.co/i16lGZm46T pic.twitter.com/UiNSPAAdt8

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Comments

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    Prime number?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,210

    Prime number?

    Tsk. One is not a prime number.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,954
    Three is!
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,568
    Given that it is the standard educational policy in a number of EU nations, not to mention other developed world nations, this is not surprising.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,568
    RobD said:

    Prime number?

    Tsk. One is not a prime number.
    A lack of maths education, obviously
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 49,218
    This weather is degenerate
  • Options
    RobD said:

    Prime number?

    Tsk. One is not a prime number.
    That's why I put the question mark.

    I was hoping to start a discussion.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,145
    Nothing whatever in this at all. Lots of people reply 'Yes' when asked if someone else should be compelled to do something, at no cost or risk to the person questioned.

    It has no meaning whatsoever.
  • Options
    I support it in principle. Maths is very important. However, there are two problems I can see:
    1. Where will the teachers come from?
    2. If kids have not engaged with maths by 16, another two years will make no difference.
    The really key years are primary school and 7-9 in secondary school. Those should be the focus.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,237
    The challenge is rather delivering the policy.
    As currently stated, it's little more than fantasy.

    If he's not going to have an election for a couple of years, it's not going to look very good as a mere manifesto commitment.
  • Options
    Through the end of the 19th century, some impressive mathematicians considered 1 prime, and some did not.

    https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/roots-of-unity/why-isnt-1-a-prime-number/
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,210

    RobD said:

    Prime number?

    Tsk. One is not a prime number.
    That's why I put the question mark.

    I was hoping to start a discussion.
    I thought you were just doubting your ability to come first. :smiley:
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 49,218
    Mathematically, Sweden is crunching the numbers

    “More people than ever before were shot dead in Sweden in 2022, and the new year has begun with a new spiral of violence in Stockholm.”

    https://twitter.com/thelocalsweden/status/1612029227871907841?s=46&t=VorTiAXGq8Up1yDU4iDl_Q
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,237
    Enjoyed skimming the previous Brexit/ rejoin thread.

    The holdout Brexiteers are beginning to remind me of 1980s communists - "it just hasn't been properly delivered yet".
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,278
    A distinction needs to be made between arithmetic and mathematics. Why does everyone need to understand calculus or algebra?
  • Options
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Prime number?

    Tsk. One is not a prime number.
    That's why I put the question mark.

    I was hoping to start a discussion.
    I thought you were just doubting your ability to come first. :smiley:
    I wasn't sure if I would be first, it is a lottery and not a guarantee that I would be first.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,996
    As a matter of general principle I agree with Sunak but my own children illustrate the problem. My youngest chooses mathematically based courses at Oxford such as game theory and microeconomics because he finds the maths so easy it gives him time to work on the rest of the course and indeed other courses (he has dyslexia and is a slow reader). My eldest child has dyscalculia, looking at columns of figures makes her quite dizzy and nauseous.

    Funnily enough one was studying maths to 18 and afterwards and one wasn't.

    My middle child is nearer the target. She says that she doesn't "do" maths but she can, she just doesn't like it very much. Would she be a better trainee court lawyer if she had done more maths? Not sure, but probably not.
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    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,278
    Interestingly, the generation who have recently attended school are less in favour of compulsory maths that the generation who left school 50+ years ago.
  • Options
    Same accursed age profile as everything else in British politics.

    With greater distance from the effects of the policy linked to greater support.
  • Options

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Prime number?

    Tsk. One is not a prime number.
    That's why I put the question mark.

    I was hoping to start a discussion.
    I thought you were just doubting your ability to come first. :smiley:
    I wasn't sure if I would be first, it is a lottery and not a guarantee that I would be first.
    Save it for the girlfriend mate.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,210

    Same accursed age profile as everything else in British politics.

    With greater distance from the effects of the policy linked to greater support.

    Is that just because of who is proposing it?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,096

    I support it in principle. Maths is very important. However, there are two problems I can see:
    1. Where will the teachers come from?
    2. If kids have not engaged with maths by 16, another two years will make no difference.
    The really key years are primary school and 7-9 in secondary school. Those should be the focus.

    Yes, this is the sensible criticism to give.

    But most OECD countries do mandate maths until 18 years old as well, so I do think that needs to be part of it.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,996
    Nigelb said:

    The challenge is rather delivering the policy.
    As currently stated, it's little more than fantasy.

    If he's not going to have an election for a couple of years, it's not going to look very good as a mere manifesto commitment.

    My understanding is that most state schools struggle to find enough math teachers to meet the current demand, let alone provide more services to the unenthused.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,096
    Nigelb said:

    Enjoyed skimming the previous Brexit/ rejoin thread.

    The holdout Brexiteers are beginning to remind me of 1980s communists - "it just hasn't been properly delivered yet".

    Maybe you should read it in a bit more detail and then you'd realise that's not what was said.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,568
    Nigelb said:

    The challenge is rather delivering the policy.
    As currently stated, it's little more than fantasy.

    If he's not going to have an election for a couple of years, it's not going to look very good as a mere manifesto commitment.

    The same was said of

    - mandatory education
    - mandatory education to 14
    - mandatory education to 16

    Etc etc

    I suspect that, a few years down road, it will be regarded in the same way.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,586

    I support it in principle. Maths is very important. However, there are two problems I can see:
    1. Where will the teachers come from?
    2. If kids have not engaged with maths by 16, another two years will make no difference.
    The really key years are primary school and 7-9 in secondary school. Those should be the focus.

    Yes, this is the sensible criticism to give.

    But most OECD countries do mandate maths until 18 years old as well, so I do think that needs to be part of it.
    Most OECD countries don't have only three subjects studied at age 16-18 though.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,954
    edited January 2023
    FPT:

    Stocky said:

    Why do care workers get paid so little? Is it lack of demand for these jobs?

    I can’t help but think train drivers would be on minimum wage if it weren’t for unions. Although then again pilots get paid well and they’re not going on strike.

    Somebody please educate me

    Scarcity.

    Pilots are most scarce followed by train drivers then care workers. Only a few of us are equipped educationally, technically and intelligence-wise to be a pilot. Many more could, in theory, be a care worker.
    You might be startled by how little some commercial airline pilots are paid.

    In some cases, they are, pretty much, paying to fly to get the experience to get a better job. While nursing vast debts incurred learning to fly.
    Indeed. When I got my PPL, most of my instructors were aspiring to become pilots, doing the incredibly low paid instructor job (particularly since, if they couldn’t fly due to British weather, they got nothing despite being at the airfield) to build their hours while at themselves paying to train up to CPL.

    Those that got their qualifications then sought their first live flying job - my first instructor found a job as a reserve pilot flying out of Malta, there to cover unexpected absences amongst the regular pilots. After six months of hardly flying, he chucked that and returned to instructing. My second instructor, who took me through solo to my licence, later found a job doing the nightly mail flights from Stansted to Edinburgh and back. He was pleased to get that first step on the ladder, but as someone who worked on the edges of employment law myself, I could see that his pay and conditions were pretty appalling.

    Pilots aspire to a seat in the cockpit of a passenger airline, but even there the conditions aren’t great. RyanAir adopts the same approach to its staff as it does to its passengers, making them pay for everything including their training, parking at work - they even need to provide their own pens. A newly recruited RyanAir Co-pilot is almost on starvation rations.

    Becoming a BA pilot used to be seen as the gold standard, treated decently with reasonable pay and conditions. But under Walsh - who if you dig into his management style is really quite some scumbag - the airline spent a lot of time trying to reduce the cost of its pilots by eroding their terms and conditions.

    Being an airline pilot is a role where supply considerably exceeds demand, and the people I met aspiring to the role mostly has some sort of money behind them whilst they were young - rich families, or loans - the rest lived a student-bedsit existence through their 20s and often had jobs on the side. It was tough for them, particularly as they were dreaming of an established pilot role at a major airline whilst seeing the value of the prize they were aiming for being progressively denuded by those same airlines.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,568
    IanB2 said:

    FPT:

    Stocky said:

    Why do care workers get paid so little? Is it lack of demand for these jobs?

    I can’t help but think train drivers would be on minimum wage if it weren’t for unions. Although then again pilots get paid well and they’re not going on strike.

    Somebody please educate me

    Scarcity.

    Pilots are most scarce followed by train drivers then care workers. Only a few of us are equipped educationally, technically and intelligence-wise to be a pilot. Many more could, in theory, be a care worker.
    You might be startled by how little some commercial airline pilots are paid.

    In some cases, they are, pretty much, paying to fly to get the experience to get a better job. While nursing vast debts incurred learning to fly.
    Indeed. When I got my PPL, most of my instructors were aspiring to become pilots, doing the incredibly low paid instructor job (particularly since, if they couldn’t fly due to British weather, they got nothing despite being at the airfield) to build their hours while at themselves paying to train up to CPL.

    Those that got their qualifications then sought their first live flying job - my first instructor found a job as a reserve pilot flying out of Malta, there to cover unexpected absences amongst the regular pilots. After six months of hardly flying, he chucked that and returned to instructing. My second instructor, who took me through solo to my licence, later found a job doing the nightly mail flights from Stansted to Edinburgh and back. He was pleased to get that first step on the ladder, but as someone who worked on the edges of employment law myself, I could see that his pay and conditions were pretty appalling.

    Pilots aspire to a seat in the cockpit of a passenger airline, but even there the conditions aren’t great. RyanAir adopts the same approach to its staff as it does to its passengers, making them pay for everything including their training, parking at work - they even need to provide their own pens. A newly recruited RyanAir Co-pilot is almost on starvation rations.

    Becoming a BA pilot used to be seen as the gold standard, treated decently with reasonable pay and conditions. But under Walsh - who if you dig into his style was some scumbag - the airline spent a lot of time trying to reduce the cost of its pilots by eroding their terms and conditions.

    Being an airline pilot is a role where supply considerably exceeds demand, and the people I met aspiring to the role mostly has some sort of money behind them whilst they were young - rich families, or loans - the rest lived a student-bedsit existence through their 20s and often had jobs on the side. It was tough for them, particularly as they were dreaming of an established pilot role at a major airline whilst seeing the value of the prize they were aiming for being progressively denuded by those same airlines.
    A friend of my wife’s is married to an ex BA pilot. Who was binned during COVID. BA was surprised that he didn’t want to come back for considerably less than half his previous salary. When they realised they didn’t have enough qualified pilots in certain categories.
  • Options
    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,531
    Honestly, it is no longer about policies or personalities. The punters already know that after the staggering fiasco of 2022, the Conservatives are headed for a shellacking, no matter what.

    I will never forgive what happened to my parents after my Mother´s fall last week. The attempt by ministers to pin the blame on the nurses and the NHS staff for the decisions they themselves have made over several years was even more contemptible than politics as usual. Thousands, if not millions, of people have endured this, as they endure public services cut to the bone, infrastructure on the brink of collapse, and PR bullshit in place of actual decisions, so that virtually anything under government control is broken. The Passport Office, Companies House, the courts system, Local government bankruptcies, the roads, insane prices of infrastructure builds, education, social welfare all join the NHS in the emergency room. One crisis may be a misfortune, a dozen simultaneous crisis is more than mere carelessness. And in the middle of this disaster all we see is assholes like Mogg and Johnson plotting to obtain Imperial purple for themselves.

    I sense a gathering rage, and it may even be that the Tories are not merely defeated, but actually obliterated.

    If Sunak is so keen on maths, perhaps he might be able to work out the costs of his failed policies and dishonest manifesto. Then he can work out how many seats his party gets under FPTP on less than a 20% national vote. After that he can calculate how long the Tories will stay out of power after the most crushing defeat they have ever had.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,586
    Also. "Statistically illiterate" appears in the OP.
    Stats are shamefully ignored in the current curriculum.
    Folk need arithmetic and stats (particularly probability) for daily life.
    Algebra, calculus, trigonometry and geometry once you've mastered those, for those who have ability, interest or specialisms requiring them.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,084
    Sunak would be well advised to make maths tuition universally available at any age , easy to access and attractive rather than force disinterested teenagers to do it.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,954
    Nigelb said:

    Enjoyed skimming the previous Brexit/ rejoin thread.

    The holdout Brexiteers are beginning to remind me of 1980s communists - "it just hasn't been properly delivered yet".

    At least we have NPexMP on here to remind us what they are like…. ;)
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,568
    Leon said:

    Mathematically, Sweden is crunching the numbers

    “More people than ever before were shot dead in Sweden in 2022, and the new year has begun with a new spiral of violence in Stockholm.”

    https://twitter.com/thelocalsweden/status/1612029227871907841?s=46&t=VorTiAXGq8Up1yDU4iDl_Q

    You mean that by 40,000 AD, Sweden may have achieved half the murder rate of the USA?
  • Options
    RobD said:

    Same accursed age profile as everything else in British politics.

    With greater distance from the effects of the policy linked to greater support.

    Is that just because of who is proposing it?
    Probably, and in both directions.

    But given that those who want to do A Level maths can and that those without a good GCSE grade have to retake, it's an odd policy when we don't really have enough maths teachers as it is.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,096
    dixiedean said:

    I support it in principle. Maths is very important. However, there are two problems I can see:
    1. Where will the teachers come from?
    2. If kids have not engaged with maths by 16, another two years will make no difference.
    The really key years are primary school and 7-9 in secondary school. Those should be the focus.

    Yes, this is the sensible criticism to give.

    But most OECD countries do mandate maths until 18 years old as well, so I do think that needs to be part of it.
    Most OECD countries don't have only three subjects studied at age 16-18 though.
    I think baccalaureate are part of the reform mix.

    There is definitely a move away from just three simple A-levels going on.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,568

    dixiedean said:

    I support it in principle. Maths is very important. However, there are two problems I can see:
    1. Where will the teachers come from?
    2. If kids have not engaged with maths by 16, another two years will make no difference.
    The really key years are primary school and 7-9 in secondary school. Those should be the focus.

    Yes, this is the sensible criticism to give.

    But most OECD countries do mandate maths until 18 years old as well, so I do think that needs to be part of it.
    Most OECD countries don't have only three subjects studied at age 16-18 though.
    I think baccalaureate are part of the reform mix.

    There is definitely a move away from just three simple A-levels going on.
    Quite a few private school 6th formers already do the baccalaureate.

    One benefit of private education is, possibly, showing that things are possible and might even produce good results.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,954

    IanB2 said:

    FPT:

    Stocky said:

    Why do care workers get paid so little? Is it lack of demand for these jobs?

    I can’t help but think train drivers would be on minimum wage if it weren’t for unions. Although then again pilots get paid well and they’re not going on strike.

    Somebody please educate me

    Scarcity.

    Pilots are most scarce followed by train drivers then care workers. Only a few of us are equipped educationally, technically and intelligence-wise to be a pilot. Many more could, in theory, be a care worker.
    You might be startled by how little some commercial airline pilots are paid.

    In some cases, they are, pretty much, paying to fly to get the experience to get a better job. While nursing vast debts incurred learning to fly.
    Indeed. When I got my PPL, most of my instructors were aspiring to become pilots, doing the incredibly low paid instructor job (particularly since, if they couldn’t fly due to British weather, they got nothing despite being at the airfield) to build their hours while at themselves paying to train up to CPL.

    Those that got their qualifications then sought their first live flying job - my first instructor found a job as a reserve pilot flying out of Malta, there to cover unexpected absences amongst the regular pilots. After six months of hardly flying, he chucked that and returned to instructing. My second instructor, who took me through solo to my licence, later found a job doing the nightly mail flights from Stansted to Edinburgh and back. He was pleased to get that first step on the ladder, but as someone who worked on the edges of employment law myself, I could see that his pay and conditions were pretty appalling.

    Pilots aspire to a seat in the cockpit of a passenger airline, but even there the conditions aren’t great. RyanAir adopts the same approach to its staff as it does to its passengers, making them pay for everything including their training, parking at work - they even need to provide their own pens. A newly recruited RyanAir Co-pilot is almost on starvation rations.

    Becoming a BA pilot used to be seen as the gold standard, treated decently with reasonable pay and conditions. But under Walsh - who if you dig into his style was some scumbag - the airline spent a lot of time trying to reduce the cost of its pilots by eroding their terms and conditions.

    Being an airline pilot is a role where supply considerably exceeds demand, and the people I met aspiring to the role mostly has some sort of money behind them whilst they were young - rich families, or loans - the rest lived a student-bedsit existence through their 20s and often had jobs on the side. It was tough for them, particularly as they were dreaming of an established pilot role at a major airline whilst seeing the value of the prize they were aiming for being progressively denuded by those same airlines.
    A friend of my wife’s is married to an ex BA pilot. Who was binned during COVID. BA was surprised that he didn’t want to come back for considerably less than half his previous salary. When they realised they didn’t have enough qualified pilots in certain categories.
    Indeed. It’s a tough world for pilots.

    One correction to my post, as I recall to be instructors they already needed CPL, and it was the training and hours toward their APTL that they were using their time as instructors to achieve.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,084
    Why force 16-17 year olds to learn about mortgages, better to make that available to prospective first time buyers when it’s relevant. You know, in their mid fifties.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,586
    edited January 2023

    dixiedean said:

    I support it in principle. Maths is very important. However, there are two problems I can see:
    1. Where will the teachers come from?
    2. If kids have not engaged with maths by 16, another two years will make no difference.
    The really key years are primary school and 7-9 in secondary school. Those should be the focus.

    Yes, this is the sensible criticism to give.

    But most OECD countries do mandate maths until 18 years old as well, so I do think that needs to be part of it.
    Most OECD countries don't have only three subjects studied at age 16-18 though.
    I think baccalaureate are part of the reform mix.

    There is definitely a move away from just three simple A-levels going on.
    Something I would be heartily in favour of.
    Simply adding compulsory maths onto someone who could barely do it before 16, or simply wasn't enthused, risks turning folk off education altogether as it stands.
    Incidentally. My Canadian High School didn't offer "Maths" at all past Year 10.
    There were separate subjects for calculus, algebra, and geometry ISTR.
    You didn't get into Year 11 without having the basics.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,210
    Jonathan said:

    Why force 16-17 year olds to learn about mortgages, better to make that available to prospective first time buyers when it’s relevant. You know, in their mid fifties.

    Learning about interest is not just relevant for when taking out a mortgage.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,568
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT:

    Stocky said:

    Why do care workers get paid so little? Is it lack of demand for these jobs?

    I can’t help but think train drivers would be on minimum wage if it weren’t for unions. Although then again pilots get paid well and they’re not going on strike.

    Somebody please educate me

    Scarcity.

    Pilots are most scarce followed by train drivers then care workers. Only a few of us are equipped educationally, technically and intelligence-wise to be a pilot. Many more could, in theory, be a care worker.
    You might be startled by how little some commercial airline pilots are paid.

    In some cases, they are, pretty much, paying to fly to get the experience to get a better job. While nursing vast debts incurred learning to fly.
    Indeed. When I got my PPL, most of my instructors were aspiring to become pilots, doing the incredibly low paid instructor job (particularly since, if they couldn’t fly due to British weather, they got nothing despite being at the airfield) to build their hours while at themselves paying to train up to CPL.

    Those that got their qualifications then sought their first live flying job - my first instructor found a job as a reserve pilot flying out of Malta, there to cover unexpected absences amongst the regular pilots. After six months of hardly flying, he chucked that and returned to instructing. My second instructor, who took me through solo to my licence, later found a job doing the nightly mail flights from Stansted to Edinburgh and back. He was pleased to get that first step on the ladder, but as someone who worked on the edges of employment law myself, I could see that his pay and conditions were pretty appalling.

    Pilots aspire to a seat in the cockpit of a passenger airline, but even there the conditions aren’t great. RyanAir adopts the same approach to its staff as it does to its passengers, making them pay for everything including their training, parking at work - they even need to provide their own pens. A newly recruited RyanAir Co-pilot is almost on starvation rations.

    Becoming a BA pilot used to be seen as the gold standard, treated decently with reasonable pay and conditions. But under Walsh - who if you dig into his style was some scumbag - the airline spent a lot of time trying to reduce the cost of its pilots by eroding their terms and conditions.

    Being an airline pilot is a role where supply considerably exceeds demand, and the people I met aspiring to the role mostly has some sort of money behind them whilst they were young - rich families, or loans - the rest lived a student-bedsit existence through their 20s and often had jobs on the side. It was tough for them, particularly as they were dreaming of an established pilot role at a major airline whilst seeing the value of the prize they were aiming for being progressively denuded by those same airlines.
    A friend of my wife’s is married to an ex BA pilot. Who was binned during COVID. BA was surprised that he didn’t want to come back for considerably less than half his previous salary. When they realised they didn’t have enough qualified pilots in certain categories.
    Indeed. It’s a tough world for pilots.

    One correction to my post, as I recall to be instructors they already needed CPL, and it was the training and hours toward their APTL that they were using their time as instructors to achieve.
    He’s flying for one of the airlines, who literally spelled it out in their management policies. They believe by paying a high salary, they can get the best pilots, ensure loyalty and by not creating the massive stress that the low pay causes, promote stability and good decision making. Given the number of pilots in an airline and the fact they literally hold the reputation of the airline in their hands, this seems very sensible.

    He told me that when he looks at other pilots now, it often scares him how burnt out and generally fried they look to him.
  • Options
    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623

    A distinction needs to be made between arithmetic and mathematics. Why does everyone need to understand calculus or algebra?

    Yes.

    Would be better to distinguish more between credible and normal real-life applications of maths than more complex theory required for subsequent specialism.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,084
    edited January 2023
    Much of the current maths curriculum is irrelevant and pointless beyond intellectual curiosity . It is perfectly possible to lead a well informed, intelligent and engaged life without deploying the cosine rule in anger or calculating using logs.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,084
    edited January 2023
    RobD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Why force 16-17 year olds to learn about mortgages, better to make that available to prospective first time buyers when it’s relevant. You know, in their mid fifties.

    Learning about interest is not just relevant for when taking out a mortgage.
    It’s important at any age, not just at school. In my experience learning sticks best when it’s relevant.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 49,218

    Leon said:

    Mathematically, Sweden is crunching the numbers

    “More people than ever before were shot dead in Sweden in 2022, and the new year has begun with a new spiral of violence in Stockholm.”

    https://twitter.com/thelocalsweden/status/1612029227871907841?s=46&t=VorTiAXGq8Up1yDU4iDl_Q

    You mean that by 40,000 AD, Sweden may have achieved half the murder rate of the USA?
    Nearly finishing my deep dive on Europe, migration and crime

    Couple of surprising things about Sweden.

    1. The bombings. Five in a week in Stockholm. That’s like Belfast in the 70s


    “During one week in Stockholm two (2) people have died and several injured in four (4) shootings and five (5) bombings.”

    https://twitter.com/tomas68355920/status/1610618077091094529?s=46&t=VorTiAXGq8Up1yDU4iDl_Q

    2. The Sweden Democrats. The hard right party in the ascendant. A lot of their new support is coming from the young. Even amongst 18-21 year olds, 20% support them, up from 10% a few years ago

    When your young people shift to the hard right, that’s a bad sign
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,568
    RobD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Why force 16-17 year olds to learn about mortgages, better to make that available to prospective first time buyers when it’s relevant. You know, in their mid fifties.

    Learning about interest is not just relevant for when taking out a mortgage.
    Quite. I can recall an occasion, in the pub, when conversation turned to mobile contracts.

    Using the back of a beer mat, I pointed out that buying a mobile via contract was an extremely expensive way to buy a phone on credit. To looks of horror - the less maths interested hadn’t thought about it that way. At least one chap would have been better off buying his phone on a credit card and paying it off slowly.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,866
    edited January 2023
    dixiedean said:

    Also. "Statistically illiterate" appears in the OP.
    Stats are shamefully ignored in the current curriculum.
    Folk need arithmetic and stats (particularly probability) for daily life.
    Algebra, calculus, trigonometry and geometry once you've mastered those, for those who have ability, interest or specialisms requiring them.

    I would also like to see some very basic logic also for daily life (hyufd could do with it).

    I'm 50 years out of date so the following might be rubbish, but I did no logic until my second year of a maths degree and that was by choice that I did it, so I could have gone through without any. I think basic logic should be taught at GCSE. I also did not get any of what was termed at the time 'modern maths' so my first few weeks of Uni came as a bit of a shock. I also did not get any stats (although I did get probability) prior to Uni and as that was a choice subject also I never did any at all in my formal education. In some professional exams I was excused Stats because of my Maths degree but chose to take it anyway for obvious reasons.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,096
    Jonathan said:

    Much of the current maths curriculum is irrelevant and pointless beyond intellectual curiosity . It is perfectly possible to lead a well informed, intelligent and engaged life without deploying the cosine rule in anger or calculating using logs.

    If Tony Blair had proposed this exact same policy we'd be hearing much less of this argument.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,954
    edited January 2023

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT:

    Stocky said:

    Why do care workers get paid so little? Is it lack of demand for these jobs?

    I can’t help but think train drivers would be on minimum wage if it weren’t for unions. Although then again pilots get paid well and they’re not going on strike.

    Somebody please educate me

    Scarcity.

    Pilots are most scarce followed by train drivers then care workers. Only a few of us are equipped educationally, technically and intelligence-wise to be a pilot. Many more could, in theory, be a care worker.
    You might be startled by how little some commercial airline pilots are paid.

    In some cases, they are, pretty much, paying to fly to get the experience to get a better job. While nursing vast debts incurred learning to fly.
    Indeed. When I got my PPL, most of my instructors were aspiring to become pilots, doing the incredibly low paid instructor job (particularly since, if they couldn’t fly due to British weather, they got nothing despite being at the airfield) to build their hours while at themselves paying to train up to CPL.

    Those that got their qualifications then sought their first live flying job - my first instructor found a job as a reserve pilot flying out of Malta, there to cover unexpected absences amongst the regular pilots. After six months of hardly flying, he chucked that and returned to instructing. My second instructor, who took me through solo to my licence, later found a job doing the nightly mail flights from Stansted to Edinburgh and back. He was pleased to get that first step on the ladder, but as someone who worked on the edges of employment law myself, I could see that his pay and conditions were pretty appalling.

    Pilots aspire to a seat in the cockpit of a passenger airline, but even there the conditions aren’t great. RyanAir adopts the same approach to its staff as it does to its passengers, making them pay for everything including their training, parking at work - they even need to provide their own pens. A newly recruited RyanAir Co-pilot is almost on starvation rations.

    Becoming a BA pilot used to be seen as the gold standard, treated decently with reasonable pay and conditions. But under Walsh - who if you dig into his style was some scumbag - the airline spent a lot of time trying to reduce the cost of its pilots by eroding their terms and conditions.

    Being an airline pilot is a role where supply considerably exceeds demand, and the people I met aspiring to the role mostly has some sort of money behind them whilst they were young - rich families, or loans - the rest lived a student-bedsit existence through their 20s and often had jobs on the side. It was tough for them, particularly as they were dreaming of an established pilot role at a major airline whilst seeing the value of the prize they were aiming for being progressively denuded by those same airlines.
    A friend of my wife’s is married to an ex BA pilot. Who was binned during COVID. BA was surprised that he didn’t want to come back for considerably less than half his previous salary. When they realised they didn’t have enough qualified pilots in certain categories.
    Indeed. It’s a tough world for pilots.

    One correction to my post, as I recall to be instructors they already needed CPL, and it was the training and hours toward their APTL that they were using their time as instructors to achieve.
    He’s flying for one of the airlines, who literally spelled it out in their management policies. They believe by paying a high salary, they can get the best pilots, ensure loyalty and by not creating the massive stress that the low pay causes, promote stability and good decision making. Given the number of pilots in an airline and the fact they literally hold the reputation of the airline in their hands, this seems very sensible.

    He told me that when he looks at other pilots now, it often scares him how burnt out and generally fried they look to him.
    One of those jobs where there are simply too many young people - weighted towards boys but increasingly girls as well - who dream of a life above the clouds.

    It’s a funny job because it’s very rules-bound and the autopilot does almost all of the flying, while the pilots do the paperwork, so a fair few pilots have private licenses on the side to maintain their connection with the image of freedom above the clouds that was their first inspiration.

    A mixture of health and finances mean that I no longer fly, but I’m grateful for the experiences I had flying across Northern Europe and in California. And for those summer evenings when I’d drive up to Stapleford and take one of their planes out on a solo bimble above East Anglia, just for the fun of it. That moment when you taxi onto the end of the runway and briefly hold the brakes while moving the engine up to full thrust, knowing that you’re about to be be up in the air, is the one that I always savoured and dream about still.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,084

    Jonathan said:

    Much of the current maths curriculum is irrelevant and pointless beyond intellectual curiosity . It is perfectly possible to lead a well informed, intelligent and engaged life without deploying the cosine rule in anger or calculating using logs.

    If Tony Blair had proposed this exact same policy we'd be hearing much less of this argument.
    Sigh. Always party political.
  • Options
    dixiedean said:

    Also. "Statistically illiterate" appears in the OP.
    Stats are shamefully ignored in the current curriculum.
    Folk need arithmetic and stats (particularly probability) for daily life.
    Algebra, calculus, trigonometry and geometry once you've mastered those, for those who have ability, interest or specialisms requiring them.

    I was thinking about Robert Peston when I wrote about the statistically illiterate.

    At the start of the pandemic he seemed genuinely shocked to find out the more the government tested the more Covid positive results there were.

    Sadly he didn’t not improve during the pandemic.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 77,853
    edited January 2023

    Jonathan said:

    Much of the current maths curriculum is irrelevant and pointless beyond intellectual curiosity . It is perfectly possible to lead a well informed, intelligent and engaged life without deploying the cosine rule in anger or calculating using logs.

    If Tony Blair had proposed this exact same policy we'd be hearing much less of this argument.
    The future is one where a mathematical and computer background will only become more important, not less. For all the AI progression we are seeing, it is going to replace lots of low to mid level white collar jobs that revolve around tasks like paper pushing, form filling and email correspondence...societies who have moved passed making the bulk of their money from low to mid tier manufacture and don't upskill for the technological future are going to be screwed.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,210

    Jonathan said:

    Much of the current maths curriculum is irrelevant and pointless beyond intellectual curiosity . It is perfectly possible to lead a well informed, intelligent and engaged life without deploying the cosine rule in anger or calculating using logs.

    If Tony Blair had proposed this exact same policy we'd be hearing much less of this argument.
    The future is one where a mathematical and computer background will only become more important, not less. For all the AI progression we are seeing, it is going to replace lots of low to mid level white collar jobs that revolve around tasks like paper pushing, form filling and email correspondence...societies who have moved passed making the bulk of their money from low to mid tier manufacture and don't upskill for the technological future are going to be screwed.
    Yes, the argument that people can get by without needing the more abstract maths (and computing) skills is missing the point. It will be needed in the future.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 77,853
    edited January 2023

    dixiedean said:

    Also. "Statistically illiterate" appears in the OP.
    Stats are shamefully ignored in the current curriculum.
    Folk need arithmetic and stats (particularly probability) for daily life.
    Algebra, calculus, trigonometry and geometry once you've mastered those, for those who have ability, interest or specialisms requiring them.

    I was thinking about Robert Peston when I wrote about the statistically illiterate.

    At the start of the pandemic he seemed genuinely shocked to find out the more the government tested the more Covid positive results there were.

    Sadly he didn’t not improve during the pandemic.
    Some might argue that the fact Robert Peston still has a show on mainstream telly pretending to be an expert in everything is another example of the decline in the UK.....he repeatedly was shown up as a moron, a classic example of the Dunning Kruger Effect. Not once, but twice, he argued with JVT, refused to back down and completely humiliated.
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,278
    In Alaska, and I assume in other places as well, you can get a pilot’s licence before you can get a driver’s licence.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,586

    dixiedean said:

    Also. "Statistically illiterate" appears in the OP.
    Stats are shamefully ignored in the current curriculum.
    Folk need arithmetic and stats (particularly probability) for daily life.
    Algebra, calculus, trigonometry and geometry once you've mastered those, for those who have ability, interest or specialisms requiring them.

    I was thinking about Robert Peston when I wrote about the statistically illiterate.

    At the start of the pandemic he seemed genuinely shocked to find out the more the government tested the more Covid positive results there were.

    Sadly he didn’t not improve during the pandemic.
    Well indeed.
    I was agreeing with you.
    Unfortunately, simply teaching the same Maths curriculum for longer won't solve this.
    I didn't do any stats for O Level.
    I took it as an elective in my first year at Uni and discovered that my knowledge of betting made it pretty straightforward. Got my best Uni grade in it, despite having to do virtually no work.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 16,421
    dixiedean said:

    Also. "Statistically illiterate" appears in the OP.
    Stats are shamefully ignored in the current curriculum.
    Folk need arithmetic and stats (particularly probability) for daily life.
    Algebra, calculus, trigonometry and geometry once you've mastered those, for those who have ability, interest or specialisms requiring them.

    Yes. In many ways the curriculum is still rooted in the Victorian age with an emphasis on Euclid, but statistics and probability would be more relevant and useful for most people.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,568

    dixiedean said:

    Also. "Statistically illiterate" appears in the OP.
    Stats are shamefully ignored in the current curriculum.
    Folk need arithmetic and stats (particularly probability) for daily life.
    Algebra, calculus, trigonometry and geometry once you've mastered those, for those who have ability, interest or specialisms requiring them.

    I was thinking about Robert Peston when I wrote about the statistically illiterate.

    At the start of the pandemic he seemed genuinely shocked to find out the more the government tested the more Covid positive results there were.

    Sadly he didn’t not improve during the pandemic.
    Not to mention his struggles with reporting date vs day-off….

    Or his struggles with the concept of perspective….
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,954
    edited January 2023

    In Alaska, and I assume in other places as well, you can get a pilot’s licence before you can get a driver’s licence.

    Qualifying very young happens in the UK as well, if not too often, since the age restriction only applies to issuing the licence, and not to the training.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 77,853
    edited January 2023

    dixiedean said:

    Also. "Statistically illiterate" appears in the OP.
    Stats are shamefully ignored in the current curriculum.
    Folk need arithmetic and stats (particularly probability) for daily life.
    Algebra, calculus, trigonometry and geometry once you've mastered those, for those who have ability, interest or specialisms requiring them.

    I was thinking about Robert Peston when I wrote about the statistically illiterate.

    At the start of the pandemic he seemed genuinely shocked to find out the more the government tested the more Covid positive results there were.

    Sadly he didn’t not improve during the pandemic.
    Not to mention his struggles with reporting date vs day-off….

    Or his struggles with the concept of perspective….
    To be fair, was there any mainstream news outlet who didn't manage to f##k up this....

    I don't know about 16-18 year olds being required to take more maths classes, but mainstream journalists definitely do.
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,278

    dixiedean said:

    Also. "Statistically illiterate" appears in the OP.
    Stats are shamefully ignored in the current curriculum.
    Folk need arithmetic and stats (particularly probability) for daily life.
    Algebra, calculus, trigonometry and geometry once you've mastered those, for those who have ability, interest or specialisms requiring them.

    Yes. In many ways the curriculum is still rooted in the Victorian age with an emphasis on Euclid, but statistics and probability would be more relevant and useful for most people.
    Especially those on a betting site!
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,669

    dixiedean said:

    Also. "Statistically illiterate" appears in the OP.
    Stats are shamefully ignored in the current curriculum.
    Folk need arithmetic and stats (particularly probability) for daily life.
    Algebra, calculus, trigonometry and geometry once you've mastered those, for those who have ability, interest or specialisms requiring them.

    Yes. In many ways the curriculum is still rooted in the Victorian age with an emphasis on Euclid, but statistics and probability would be more relevant and useful for most people.
    I did A level maths (30 years ago...) and did Pure maths and Mechanics as modules. With hindsight, I wish I had done the statistics module instead of mechanics, as it would have helped me in numerous little ways,
  • Options
    pm215pm215 Posts: 987


    I did A level maths (30 years ago...) and did Pure maths and Mechanics as modules. With hindsight, I wish I had done the statistics module instead of mechanics, as it would have helped me in numerous little ways,

    Hah, me too, though perhaps a mere 27 years in my case. The pure and mechanics stuff was more interesting and seemed easier to me at the time as well as synergizing with the physics a-level, but stats and probability is probably more generally useful. (Though I think I must have done at least some stats at uni and can remember none of it, so who knows...)
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,568
    Now for a serious and important question.

    I had some pigs in blankets left over from Christmas, in the freezer.

    I used them to make toad in the hole - I think the result was excellent.

    But have I committed a heresy?
  • Options
    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623

    dixiedean said:

    Also. "Statistically illiterate" appears in the OP.
    Stats are shamefully ignored in the current curriculum.
    Folk need arithmetic and stats (particularly probability) for daily life.
    Algebra, calculus, trigonometry and geometry once you've mastered those, for those who have ability, interest or specialisms requiring them.

    I was thinking about Robert Peston when I wrote about the statistically illiterate.

    At the start of the pandemic he seemed genuinely shocked to find out the more the government tested the more Covid positive results there were.

    Sadly he didn’t not improve during the pandemic.
    Not to mention his struggles with reporting date vs day-off….

    Or his struggles with the concept of perspective….
    To be fair, was there any mainstream news outlet who didn't manage to f##k up this....

    I don't know about 16-18 year olds being required to take more maths classes, but mainstream journalists definitely do.
    Given the march of modelling and "AI" we probably need them to have some data science skills or at least basic knowledge, let alone just maths.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,568

    dixiedean said:

    Also. "Statistically illiterate" appears in the OP.
    Stats are shamefully ignored in the current curriculum.
    Folk need arithmetic and stats (particularly probability) for daily life.
    Algebra, calculus, trigonometry and geometry once you've mastered those, for those who have ability, interest or specialisms requiring them.

    I was thinking about Robert Peston when I wrote about the statistically illiterate.

    At the start of the pandemic he seemed genuinely shocked to find out the more the government tested the more Covid positive results there were.

    Sadly he didn’t not improve during the pandemic.
    Not to mention his struggles with reporting date vs day-off….

    Or his struggles with the concept of perspective….
    To be fair, was there any mainstream news outlet who didn't manage to f##k up this....

    I don't know about 16-18 year olds being required to take more maths classes, but mainstream journalists definitely do.
    Politicians
    Civil servants
    Talking heads in social media

    The list of those who needed a touch of stats grows, doesn’t it?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 77,853
    edited January 2023

    dixiedean said:

    Also. "Statistically illiterate" appears in the OP.
    Stats are shamefully ignored in the current curriculum.
    Folk need arithmetic and stats (particularly probability) for daily life.
    Algebra, calculus, trigonometry and geometry once you've mastered those, for those who have ability, interest or specialisms requiring them.

    I was thinking about Robert Peston when I wrote about the statistically illiterate.

    At the start of the pandemic he seemed genuinely shocked to find out the more the government tested the more Covid positive results there were.

    Sadly he didn’t not improve during the pandemic.
    Not to mention his struggles with reporting date vs day-off….

    Or his struggles with the concept of perspective….
    To be fair, was there any mainstream news outlet who didn't manage to f##k up this....

    I don't know about 16-18 year olds being required to take more maths classes, but mainstream journalists definitely do.
    Given the march of modelling and "AI" we probably need them to have some data science skills or at least basic knowledge, let alone just maths.
    Well yes, maths, computer science, data science, that is where a lot of focus needs to be aimed. This is where opportunities will be when rather than needing massive teams of people to write emails, write reports, etc all day, you only need a handful to act as editors.

    For all the excitement the likes of Leon has had about ChatGPT writing stories etc, actually those in the know have said where it appears to be most useful is providing bullet points and it churning out a letter / email / report, same with translation of code to documentation, or converting data to more usable forms....i.e. what lots of white collar jobs currently do manually.

    If you "specialise" the training of such models to your corporate business, and the format / tone used, it is going to be extremely good at firing out email, reports, etc in a standardised format.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,084
    edited January 2023

    Now for a serious and important question.

    I had some pigs in blankets left over from Christmas, in the freezer.

    I used them to make toad in the hole - I think the result was excellent.

    But have I committed a heresy?

    Sounds like an inspired stroke of genius to me.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,210

    dixiedean said:

    I support it in principle. Maths is very important. However, there are two problems I can see:
    1. Where will the teachers come from?
    2. If kids have not engaged with maths by 16, another two years will make no difference.
    The really key years are primary school and 7-9 in secondary school. Those should be the focus.

    Yes, this is the sensible criticism to give.

    But most OECD countries do mandate maths until 18 years old as well, so I do think that needs to be part of it.
    Most OECD countries don't have only three subjects studied at age 16-18 though.
    I think baccalaureate are part of the reform mix.

    There is definitely a move away from just three simple A-levels going on.
    Further increasing the need for universities to provide Foundation Year courses because school leavers are not equipped to start a degree.

    With the added feature of an even bigger debt.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,568
    edited January 2023

    Now for a serious and important question.

    I had some pigs in blankets left over from Christmas, in the freezer.

    I used them to make toad in the hole - I think the result was excellent.

    But have I committed a heresy?

    FYI


    Indeed. I used Putin sized sausages.

    Come to think of it, Rogozin’ing the sausages would work as well.
  • Options
    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623

    Now for a serious and important question.

    I had some pigs in blankets left over from Christmas, in the freezer.

    I used them to make toad in the hole - I think the result was excellent.

    But have I committed a heresy?

    FYI


    Food for a different sort of party though.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,568
    Jonathan said:

    Now for a serious and important question.

    I had some pigs in blankets left over from Christmas, in the freezer.

    I used them to make toad in the hole - I think the result was excellent.

    But have I committed a heresy?

    Sounds like an inspired stroke of genius to me.
    Bacon makes everything better.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 49,218

    Jonathan said:

    Much of the current maths curriculum is irrelevant and pointless beyond intellectual curiosity . It is perfectly possible to lead a well informed, intelligent and engaged life without deploying the cosine rule in anger or calculating using logs.

    If Tony Blair had proposed this exact same policy we'd be hearing much less of this argument.
    The future is one where a mathematical and computer background will only become more important, not less. For all the AI progression we are seeing, it is going to replace lots of low to mid level white collar jobs that revolve around tasks like paper pushing, form filling and email correspondence...societies who have moved passed making the bulk of their money from low to mid tier manufacture and don't upskill for the technological future are going to be screwed.
    This is complete bollocks for several reasons

    1. Most people don’t have the brains for serious maths. 80% of people have an IQ under 115. 50% have an IQ under 100

    They can barely scrape a GCSE in maths. They literally cannot benefit from any more teaching. It’s a waste of time and money

    2. The AI will do everything anyway. For the dumb it will do dumb easy maths. For the smart it will do the smart hard maths. It will do it quicker, cheaper and easier for everyone

    The only advantage in having advanced maths and computer skills (for the top 10% that can master them) is that you’ll be able to sit back and think “ah, I sort of understand why ChatGPT35 is giving that answer”

    You’re like someone in 1890 saying “we all need to learn advanced mechanics because the car is coming, and we need to improve our sprinting so we can keep up with the vehicles”
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,858
    kjh said:

    dixiedean said:

    Also. "Statistically illiterate" appears in the OP.
    Stats are shamefully ignored in the current curriculum.
    Folk need arithmetic and stats (particularly probability) for daily life.
    Algebra, calculus, trigonometry and geometry once you've mastered those, for those who have ability, interest or specialisms requiring them.

    I would also like to see some very basic logic also for daily life (hyufd could do with it).

    I'm 50 years out of date so the following might be rubbish, but I did no logic until my second year of a maths degree and that was by choice that I did it, so I could have gone through without any. I think basic logic should be taught at GCSE. I also did not get any of what was termed at the time 'modern maths' so my first few weeks of Uni came as a bit of a shock. I also did not get any stats (although I did get probability) prior to Uni and as that was a choice subject also I never did any at all in my formal education. In some professional exams I was excused Stats because of my Maths degree but chose to take it anyway for obvious reasons.
    Logic and Probabilities. I'm biased, since they are my Hot Topics, but I do think life is greatly enhanced by a good grasp of both of these. And I mean normal life, nothing elevated or ivory tower. Without Logic you can't understand or argue or communicate anything remotely complex. Without Probabilities you can't assess risk or make rational decisions.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 49,218

    Now for a serious and important question.

    I had some pigs in blankets left over from Christmas, in the freezer.

    I used them to make toad in the hole - I think the result was excellent.

    But have I committed a heresy?

    FYI


    Genuine lol

    What humourless ninny marked this as “off topic”?!
  • Options
    SMP (School Mathematics Project) brought "new maths" to schools back in the 1960s or 70s. Less calculus, more sets and different bases, to get pupils ready for the computer age. I gather it was largely killed off by modularisation of the syllabus.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 77,853
    edited January 2023
    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Much of the current maths curriculum is irrelevant and pointless beyond intellectual curiosity . It is perfectly possible to lead a well informed, intelligent and engaged life without deploying the cosine rule in anger or calculating using logs.

    If Tony Blair had proposed this exact same policy we'd be hearing much less of this argument.
    The future is one where a mathematical and computer background will only become more important, not less. For all the AI progression we are seeing, it is going to replace lots of low to mid level white collar jobs that revolve around tasks like paper pushing, form filling and email correspondence...societies who have moved passed making the bulk of their money from low to mid tier manufacture and don't upskill for the technological future are going to be screwed.
    This is complete bollocks for several reasons

    1. Most people don’t have the brains for serious maths. 80% of people have an IQ under 115. 50% have an IQ under 100

    They can barely scrape a GCSE in maths. They literally cannot benefit from any more teaching. It’s a waste of time and money

    2. The AI will do everything anyway. For the dumb it will do dumb easy maths. For the smart it will do the smart hard maths. It will do it quicker, cheaper and easier for everyone

    The only advantage in having advanced maths and computer skills (for the top 10% that can master them) is that you’ll be able to sit back and think “ah, I sort of understand why ChatGPT35 is giving that answer”

    You’re like someone in 1890 saying “we all need to learn advanced mechanics because the car is coming, and we need to improve our sprinting so we can keep up with the vehicles”
    If that is your take, then we better start devising a system of society to enable millions and millions of people to be terminally unemployable.

    BTW, the likes of ChatGPT is really really bad at maths, it doesn't understand it at all. The current SOTA approaches to LLM don't have any ability to understand these concepts. There has been some progress on other approaches, but this is doing straight pure maths questions, which is rarely the task in question for real world applications.

    What you need is the replicate the human ability to take language, understand its meaning, devise the mathematical approximation to it, solve while also understanding the limitations built in. There isn't an AI that can do this, or close to it. That is why data science is value career option even with the rise of these LLMs.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,568
    Leon said:

    Now for a serious and important question.

    I had some pigs in blankets left over from Christmas, in the freezer.

    I used them to make toad in the hole - I think the result was excellent.

    But have I committed a heresy?

    FYI


    Genuine lol

    What humourless ninny marked this as “off topic”?!
    It also depends on the dinner party. One I attended at St Andrews (students) involved a bottle of wine per person, per course and a bottle of Polish Pure Spirit to finish (79.9% by *volume)

    Toad in the hole as illustrated would have added to the festivities. Which were colourful and exuberant.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,368
    🔴 Conservative voters now think the cost of Brexit outweighs its benefits for the first time, a new poll has found https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/01/08/conservative-voters-think-cost-brexit-outweighs-benefits-first/
  • Options

    dixiedean said:

    I support it in principle. Maths is very important. However, there are two problems I can see:
    1. Where will the teachers come from?
    2. If kids have not engaged with maths by 16, another two years will make no difference.
    The really key years are primary school and 7-9 in secondary school. Those should be the focus.

    Yes, this is the sensible criticism to give.

    But most OECD countries do mandate maths until 18 years old as well, so I do think that needs to be part of it.
    Most OECD countries don't have only three subjects studied at age 16-18 though.
    I think baccalaureate are part of the reform mix.

    There is definitely a move away from just three simple A-levels going on.
    Though the irony there is that the government since 2010 has dragged everyone back towards 3 A Levels; under Blair and Brown, the standard was 4 subjects in lower 6th and 3 in upper sixth.

    Some of that was due to the Gove reforms (ditching modules, adding more content to each A Level subject) and some was down to funding- schools and colleges can't really afford the necessary teaching hours.
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    My university @ugent throwing away sci (algebra/..) books because nobody would be interested in them - or getting them to somebody interested would be too costly. I don't blame them but there has to be a better way since these books are quite costly and the material is timeless.

    https://twitter.com/maartengm/status/1611298962262183936
  • Options
    PhilPhil Posts: 1,998
    edited January 2023

    My university @ugent throwing away sci (algebra/..) books because nobody would be interested in them - or getting them to somebody interested would be too costly. I don't blame them but there has to be a better way since these books are quite costly and the material is timeless.

    https://twitter.com/maartengm/status/1611298962262183936

    Librarians throw out books all the time. The vast majority are out of date & basically useless. The copyright libraries have originals if anyone really needs to refer to them in the future.

    Maths / Physics texts are perhaps an exception to this rule, especially at higher, very specialist levels.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 28,358

    My university @ugent throwing away sci (algebra/..) books because nobody would be interested in them - or getting them to somebody interested would be too costly. I don't blame them but there has to be a better way since these books are quite costly and the material is timeless.

    https://twitter.com/maartengm/status/1611298962262183936

    Disgusting. This is cultural vandalism. Books should never be treated in this way.
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    Phil said:

    My university @ugent throwing away sci (algebra/..) books because nobody would be interested in them - or getting them to somebody interested would be too costly. I don't blame them but there has to be a better way since these books are quite costly and the material is timeless.

    https://twitter.com/maartengm/status/1611298962262183936

    Librarians throw out books all the time. The vast majority are out of date & basically useless. The copyright libraries have originals if anyone really needs to refer to them in the future.

    Maths / Physics texts are perhaps an exception to this rule, especially at higher, very specialist levels.
    Legacies to my university library are usually received with hugely less enthusiasm than the generous testator intends. Landfill or boiler fuel.
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    EPGEPG Posts: 6,337
    65 - 18 = people who were probably not having new kids at the time.
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    I'm sorry, are we seriously saying people send their kids to private school because they want to save the state money. ROFL
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    Leon said:

    Now for a serious and important question.

    I had some pigs in blankets left over from Christmas, in the freezer.

    I used them to make toad in the hole - I think the result was excellent.

    But have I committed a heresy?

    FYI


    Genuine lol

    What humourless ninny marked this as “off topic”?!
    It also depends on the dinner party. One I attended at St Andrews (students) involved a bottle of wine per person, per course and a bottle of Polish Pure Spirit to finish (79.9% by *volume)

    Toad in the hole as illustrated would have added to the festivities. Which were colourful and exuberant.
    Vol not proof?

    impressive.
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    The more important question is how Sunak intends to implement this idea when he seems intent on sacking teachers?

    As usual with the Tories since 2010, it is an idea that falls apart after 5 minutes.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 49,218

    dixiedean said:

    Also. "Statistically illiterate" appears in the OP.
    Stats are shamefully ignored in the current curriculum.
    Folk need arithmetic and stats (particularly probability) for daily life.
    Algebra, calculus, trigonometry and geometry once you've mastered those, for those who have ability, interest or specialisms requiring them.

    I was thinking about Robert Peston when I wrote about the statistically illiterate.

    At the start of the pandemic he seemed genuinely shocked to find out the more the government tested the more Covid positive results there were.

    Sadly he didn’t not improve during the pandemic.
    Not to mention his struggles with reporting date vs day-off….

    Or his struggles with the concept of perspective….
    To be fair, was there any mainstream news outlet who didn't manage to f##k up this....

    I don't know about 16-18 year olds being required to take more maths classes, but mainstream journalists definitely do.
    Given the march of modelling and "AI" we probably need them to have some data science skills or at least basic knowledge, let alone just maths.
    Well yes, maths, computer science, data science, that is where a lot of focus needs to be aimed. This is where opportunities will be when rather than needing massive teams of people to write emails, write reports, etc all day, you only need a handful to act as editors.

    For all the excitement the likes of Leon has had about ChatGPT writing stories etc, actually those in the know have said where it appears to be most useful is providing bullet points and it churning out a letter / email / report, same with translation of code to documentation, or converting data to more usable forms....i.e. what lots of white collar jobs currently do manually.

    If you "specialise" the training of such models to your corporate business, and the format / tone used, it is going to be extremely good at firing out email, reports, etc in a standardised format.
    I mean, this is simply nonsense:




    “For all the excitement the likes of Leon has had about ChatGPT writing stories etc, actually those in the know have said where it appears to be most useful is providing bullet points and it churning out a letter / email / report, same with translation of code to documentation, or converting data to more usable forms....i.e. what lots of white collar jobs currently do manually.”

    ChatGPT is an enormous evolution. No one is quite sure what it can do or what it means - and what jobs it will take. It’s a lot more than “good at bullet points”. And better AI is coming this year

    eg Meet “Claude” and be very scared


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    I'm sorry, are we seriously saying people send their kids to private school because they want to save the state money. ROFL

    It was a major factor in my decision tree.
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 25,337
    edited January 2023
    On the subject of library bequests, I am slowly (too slowly) throwing away a couple of thousand mainly non-fiction books which are of no great use to anyone not possessing a time machine. These days, everything is on the web or on kindle.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 49,218

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Much of the current maths curriculum is irrelevant and pointless beyond intellectual curiosity . It is perfectly possible to lead a well informed, intelligent and engaged life without deploying the cosine rule in anger or calculating using logs.

    If Tony Blair had proposed this exact same policy we'd be hearing much less of this argument.
    The future is one where a mathematical and computer background will only become more important, not less. For all the AI progression we are seeing, it is going to replace lots of low to mid level white collar jobs that revolve around tasks like paper pushing, form filling and email correspondence...societies who have moved passed making the bulk of their money from low to mid tier manufacture and don't upskill for the technological future are going to be screwed.
    This is complete bollocks for several reasons

    1. Most people don’t have the brains for serious maths. 80% of people have an IQ under 115. 50% have an IQ under 100

    They can barely scrape a GCSE in maths. They literally cannot benefit from any more teaching. It’s a waste of time and money

    2. The AI will do everything anyway. For the dumb it will do dumb easy maths. For the smart it will do the smart hard maths. It will do it quicker, cheaper and easier for everyone

    The only advantage in having advanced maths and computer skills (for the top 10% that can master them) is that you’ll be able to sit back and think “ah, I sort of understand why ChatGPT35 is giving that answer”

    You’re like someone in 1890 saying “we all need to learn advanced mechanics because the car is coming, and we need to improve our sprinting so we can keep up with the vehicles”
    If that is your take, then we better start devising a system of society to enable millions and millions of people to be terminally unemployable.

    BTW, the likes of ChatGPT is really really bad at maths, it doesn't understand it at all. The current SOTA approaches to LLM don't have any ability to understand these concepts. There has been some progress on other approaches, but this is doing straight pure maths questions, which is rarely the task in question for real world applications.

    What you need is the replicate the human ability to take language, understand its meaning, devise the mathematical approximation to it, solve while also understanding the limitations built in. There isn't an AI that can do this, or close to it. That is why data science is value career option even with the rise of these LLMs.
    Is ChatGPT bad at maths? Opinions differ. It seems to depend how you ask a query

    I just took a random hard maths question from the internet and fed it to ChatGPT. The question is too hard for me to understand so I don’t know if the answer is right. Is it?! Genuine question. ChatGPT bullshits


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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 77,853
    edited January 2023
    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Also. "Statistically illiterate" appears in the OP.
    Stats are shamefully ignored in the current curriculum.
    Folk need arithmetic and stats (particularly probability) for daily life.
    Algebra, calculus, trigonometry and geometry once you've mastered those, for those who have ability, interest or specialisms requiring them.

    I was thinking about Robert Peston when I wrote about the statistically illiterate.

    At the start of the pandemic he seemed genuinely shocked to find out the more the government tested the more Covid positive results there were.

    Sadly he didn’t not improve during the pandemic.
    Not to mention his struggles with reporting date vs day-off….

    Or his struggles with the concept of perspective….
    To be fair, was there any mainstream news outlet who didn't manage to f##k up this....

    I don't know about 16-18 year olds being required to take more maths classes, but mainstream journalists definitely do.
    Given the march of modelling and "AI" we probably need them to have some data science skills or at least basic knowledge, let alone just maths.
    Well yes, maths, computer science, data science, that is where a lot of focus needs to be aimed. This is where opportunities will be when rather than needing massive teams of people to write emails, write reports, etc all day, you only need a handful to act as editors.

    For all the excitement the likes of Leon has had about ChatGPT writing stories etc, actually those in the know have said where it appears to be most useful is providing bullet points and it churning out a letter / email / report, same with translation of code to documentation, or converting data to more usable forms....i.e. what lots of white collar jobs currently do manually.

    If you "specialise" the training of such models to your corporate business, and the format / tone used, it is going to be extremely good at firing out email, reports, etc in a standardised format.
    I mean, this is simply nonsense:




    “For all the excitement the likes of Leon has had about ChatGPT writing stories etc, actually those in the know have said where it appears to be most useful is providing bullet points and it churning out a letter / email / report, same with translation of code to documentation, or converting data to more usable forms....i.e. what lots of white collar jobs currently do manually.”

    ChatGPT is an enormous evolution. No one is quite sure what it can do or what it means - and what jobs it will take. It’s a lot more than “good at bullet points”. And better AI is coming this year

    eg Meet “Claude” and be very scared


    You don't seem to be reading very carefully...I said it was very good at being provided with some bullet points and then converting that into readable prose. I was providing a concrete example of how valuable this is to business, not degrading its abilities. For businesses, many jobs revolve about writing correspondences, summarising information into a readable form, report writing, etc, and it will revolutionise those jobs. It is clear already that it is very capable tool for this.

    As for fundamental understanding of mathematical concepts, no its doesn't. We have done this a million times, all these LLM are variants on Transformer based architecture, they are tokenising language and learning the next words based on learned probability distributions. That is great for some tasks, such as the ones given above, not at fundamental understanding of abstract concepts. Many people have clearly demonstrated that ChatGPT doesn't understand very simple mathematical concepts such as Prime numbers.

    As for Anthropic model, I am well aware of it. My understanding it has many more guard rails than ChatGPT. Like text-to-image we will see lots of variants, but while they are Transformer based architecture they do not understand abstract concepts of maths, nor are they trying to do so.

    Text-to-Image will revolutionise things like graphic design packages from Adobe, LLM will revolutionise the workflow currently undertaken by Microsoft Office and GMail.
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,390
    Nearly half of the innumerate population support making maths compulsory until 18.
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,145
    Andy_JS said:

    My university @ugent throwing away sci (algebra/..) books because nobody would be interested in them - or getting them to somebody interested would be too costly. I don't blame them but there has to be a better way since these books are quite costly and the material is timeless.

    https://twitter.com/maartengm/status/1611298962262183936

    Disgusting. This is cultural vandalism. Books should never be treated in this way.
    There are books and books. A book called 'Spare' is currently the number 1 best seller according to a well known online retailer. I am sure the Bod and CUL needs to keep a copy in the stacks but in about a month that should be all.

    BTW does anyone know anyone who would actually buy it?!? Who are these bookworms?
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    I'm sorry, are we seriously saying people send their kids to private school because they want to save the state money. ROFL

    It was a major factor in my decision tree.
    If private education produced identical outcomes to state school, you'd still out of the goodness of your heart pay? Really?
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    LeonLeon Posts: 49,218

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Also. "Statistically illiterate" appears in the OP.
    Stats are shamefully ignored in the current curriculum.
    Folk need arithmetic and stats (particularly probability) for daily life.
    Algebra, calculus, trigonometry and geometry once you've mastered those, for those who have ability, interest or specialisms requiring them.

    I was thinking about Robert Peston when I wrote about the statistically illiterate.

    At the start of the pandemic he seemed genuinely shocked to find out the more the government tested the more Covid positive results there were.

    Sadly he didn’t not improve during the pandemic.
    Not to mention his struggles with reporting date vs day-off….

    Or his struggles with the concept of perspective….
    To be fair, was there any mainstream news outlet who didn't manage to f##k up this....

    I don't know about 16-18 year olds being required to take more maths classes, but mainstream journalists definitely do.
    Given the march of modelling and "AI" we probably need them to have some data science skills or at least basic knowledge, let alone just maths.
    Well yes, maths, computer science, data science, that is where a lot of focus needs to be aimed. This is where opportunities will be when rather than needing massive teams of people to write emails, write reports, etc all day, you only need a handful to act as editors.

    For all the excitement the likes of Leon has had about ChatGPT writing stories etc, actually those in the know have said where it appears to be most useful is providing bullet points and it churning out a letter / email / report, same with translation of code to documentation, or converting data to more usable forms....i.e. what lots of white collar jobs currently do manually.

    If you "specialise" the training of such models to your corporate business, and the format / tone used, it is going to be extremely good at firing out email, reports, etc in a standardised format.
    I mean, this is simply nonsense:




    “For all the excitement the likes of Leon has had about ChatGPT writing stories etc, actually those in the know have said where it appears to be most useful is providing bullet points and it churning out a letter / email / report, same with translation of code to documentation, or converting data to more usable forms....i.e. what lots of white collar jobs currently do manually.”

    ChatGPT is an enormous evolution. No one is quite sure what it can do or what it means - and what jobs it will take. It’s a lot more than “good at bullet points”. And better AI is coming this year

    eg Meet “Claude” and be very scared


    Do don't seem to be reading very carefully...I said it was very good at being provided with some bullet points and then converting that into readable prose. I was providing a concrete example of how valuable this is to business, not degrading its abilities.

    As for fundamental understanding of mathematical concepts, no its doesn't. We have done this a million times, all these LLM are variants on Transformer based architecture, they are tokenising language and learning the next words based on learned probability distributions. That is great for some tasks, such as the ones given above, not at fundamental understanding of abstract concepts.

    As for Anthropic model, I am well aware of it. My understanding it has many more guard rails than ChatGPT. Like text-to-image we will see lots of variants, but while they are Transformer based architecture they do not understand abstract concepts of maths, nor are they trying to do so.

    Head::desk

    They don’t have to understand, whatever that actually is, they just have to “do”

    We won’t even know if they understand. We can’t open up an electric skull and see the neurones popping. All we will know is that they 100% appear to understand - a lot better than us
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    Andy_JS said:

    My university @ugent throwing away sci (algebra/..) books because nobody would be interested in them - or getting them to somebody interested would be too costly. I don't blame them but there has to be a better way since these books are quite costly and the material is timeless.

    https://twitter.com/maartengm/status/1611298962262183936

    Disgusting. This is cultural vandalism. Books should never be treated in this way.
    "multivariate data analysis" 5th edn in there. Current edn is 8th. Not my field, but I am guessing 5th edn is between obsolete and actively misleading.
This discussion has been closed.