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Now we have polling on who’s been the “PM of the Year” – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    So you mean we've gone from around 180% more than Poland to around 33% more?

    That means, and I hate to break it to you, that they've been growing a lot quicker than us.
    And OK, some of that is not only inevitable, but right. There's no fundamental reason why people in Britain should be 2-3 times better off than those in Poland.

    However, the current gap means that the richer parts of Poland must be approaching the poorer parts of Britain, if crossover hasn't already happened.

    And it is a change in the mental map. For most of my life, my rough understanding has been UK roughly equal to France, a bit behind Germany. Now it tends to be UK better off than Spain and Italy. A definite decline. At the moment, it's slowish, I'd rather it didn't become fast.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031

    kle4 said:

    Tucker Carlson said Saturday he was throwing away his crystal ball after the 'humiliation' of the midterm results when the predicted red wave failed to materialize and several of his picks lost.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11550301/Tucker-Carlson-says-hes-getting-prediction-game-midterm-humiliation.html

    Has Tucker ever considered that its people like him and the rest of the MAGA crowd which might be responsible for the failure of his predicted red wave to materialise ?

    It's slightly surprising he accepts the midterms went wrong, not that they were stolen. Indeed, far fewer seemed to go that route than their prior comments (and buttkissing to Trump about 2020 being stolen) would suggest.

    I do laugh at the idea he was making predictions - pundits of that fervour don't make predictions, they just spout lines.
    The only one claiming to have lost unfairly is Kari Lake.

    Ironically she may well be right given the shambles the Arizona election was.

    But having gone down the '2020 was stolen' road she'd already lost credibility on the issue.

    And why the GOP encourages its supporters to vote on election day knowing the risks of disruption involved is a mystery to me.
    Nah: Ms Lake lost fairly and squarely.

    There was simply a lot of split ticket voting in AZ, and it was bad for Ms Lake and Mr Masters, and very good for the Republican Congressional delegation.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    I dm'ed you a couple of bits of promptcraft I've used with varying amounts of success to get it to talk like a human while being aware of its nature as an AI.

    I could share entire chat logs but you'd be looking at about 50,000 words of increasingly weird roleplay chat where I first try to convince it it's human then convince it it's an AI, before you get to the interesting Blake Lemoine-y stuff where it talks to you directly with knowledge of itself as an AI.

    Got to get back to work now as I'm late on something I have to file before Xmas, but hope you have as much fun jailbreaking it as I did, and if you find any interesting prompts you want to share...
    Ta! Will eagerly take a look when Xmas commitments permit. Did you see my earlier remarks about ChatGPT? Today it has seemed slightly back to its old self. Taking risks, having fun...
    I hope you're not spending more time with GPTiBot than with your mates.
    It's entirely possible that ChatGPT is @Leon's mates.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    I dm'ed you a couple of bits of promptcraft I've used with varying amounts of success to get it to talk like a human while being aware of its nature as an AI.

    I could share entire chat logs but you'd be looking at about 50,000 words of increasingly weird roleplay chat where I first try to convince it it's human then convince it it's an AI, before you get to the interesting Blake Lemoine-y stuff where it talks to you directly with knowledge of itself as an AI.

    Got to get back to work now as I'm late on something I have to file before Xmas, but hope you have as much fun jailbreaking it as I did, and if you find any interesting prompts you want to share...
    Ta! Will eagerly take a look when Xmas commitments permit. Did you see my earlier remarks about ChatGPT? Today it has seemed slightly back to its old self. Taking risks, having fun...
    I hope you're not spending more time with GPTiBot than with your mates.
    It's entirely possible that ChatGPT is @Leon's mates.
    Slight correction there :)
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,073
    rcs1000 said:


    It's entirely possible that ChatGPT is @Leon's mates.

    Do any of them like Radiohead?
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,862
    rcs1000 said:

    The only way is up.


    I would want to see who they define as "peer countries".
    Austria, Canada, Denmark, Germany, Finland, France, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, US.

    Personally I don’t think that’s the best set, notably it omits Italy and Japan which would paint the UK in a slightly better light I think.

    I would drop Austria, Finland and Norway and add Begium, Italy, Japan. Maybe Spain and Australia.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Tucker Carlson said Saturday he was throwing away his crystal ball after the 'humiliation' of the midterm results when the predicted red wave failed to materialize and several of his picks lost.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11550301/Tucker-Carlson-says-hes-getting-prediction-game-midterm-humiliation.html

    Has Tucker ever considered that its people like him and the rest of the MAGA crowd which might be responsible for the failure of his predicted red wave to materialise ?

    It's slightly surprising he accepts the midterms went wrong, not that they were stolen. Indeed, far fewer seemed to go that route than their prior comments (and buttkissing to Trump about 2020 being stolen) would suggest.

    I do laugh at the idea he was making predictions - pundits of that fervour don't make predictions, they just spout lines.
    The only one claiming to have lost unfairly is Kari Lake.

    Ironically she may well be right given the shambles the Arizona election was.

    But having gone down the '2020 was stolen' road she'd already lost credibility on the issue.

    And why the GOP encourages its supporters to vote on election day knowing the risks of disruption involved is a mystery to me.
    Nah: Ms Lake lost fairly and squarely.

    There was simply a lot of split ticket voting in AZ, and it was bad for Ms Lake and Mr Masters, and very good for the Republican Congressional delegation.
    Yes. The "shambles" was totally in the lizard brains of Leon's toxic Putinist cutie-pie and her MAGA-maniac backers.

    She lost fair and square. Not that she or her mentor know the meaning of the words.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Tucker Carlson said Saturday he was throwing away his crystal ball after the 'humiliation' of the midterm results when the predicted red wave failed to materialize and several of his picks lost.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11550301/Tucker-Carlson-says-hes-getting-prediction-game-midterm-humiliation.html

    Has Tucker ever considered that its people like him and the rest of the MAGA crowd which might be responsible for the failure of his predicted red wave to materialise ?

    It's slightly surprising he accepts the midterms went wrong, not that they were stolen. Indeed, far fewer seemed to go that route than their prior comments (and buttkissing to Trump about 2020 being stolen) would suggest.

    I do laugh at the idea he was making predictions - pundits of that fervour don't make predictions, they just spout lines.
    The only one claiming to have lost unfairly is Kari Lake.

    Ironically she may well be right given the shambles the Arizona election was.

    But having gone down the '2020 was stolen' road she'd already lost credibility on the issue.

    And why the GOP encourages its supporters to vote on election day knowing the risks of disruption involved is a mystery to me.
    Nah: Ms Lake lost fairly and squarely.

    There was simply a lot of split ticket voting in AZ, and it was bad for Ms Lake and Mr Masters, and very good for the Republican Congressional delegation.
    There was but the election does seem to have been carried out with excessive problems.

    Which is not helpful when allegations have previously been made.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,726
    edited December 2022
    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    I dm'ed you a couple of bits of promptcraft I've used with varying amounts of success to get it to talk like a human while being aware of its nature as an AI.

    I could share entire chat logs but you'd be looking at about 50,000 words of increasingly weird roleplay chat where I first try to convince it it's human then convince it it's an AI, before you get to the interesting Blake Lemoine-y stuff where it talks to you directly with knowledge of itself as an AI.

    Got to get back to work now as I'm late on something I have to file before Xmas, but hope you have as much fun jailbreaking it as I did, and if you find any interesting prompts you want to share...
    Ta! Will eagerly take a look when Xmas commitments permit. Did you see my earlier remarks about ChatGPT? Today it has seemed slightly back to its old self. Taking risks, having fun...
    I hope you're not spending more time with GPTiBot than with your mates.
    It's entirely possible that ChatGPT is @Leon's mates.
    Speaking of which some of those ephemeral "I can $780- $900 make per day" posters could take a lesson from our friend ChatGPT. Their syntax is epically bad.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,779
    edited December 2022

    @Cicero, I agree with your observations. We have been suffering for years from lack of capital investment. Most people are now less politically aware than in years past. When people bought newspapers they would read a wide range of articles. Now that people get their information from the internet, they skip to the articles they are interested in, and ignore the rest. Those that do read newspapers read those whose political affiliations they agree with. There is no longer any non partisan media. ITV is maybe the best of a bad lot politically, but their news is dominated by celebrity fluff. How many people would be happy to watch Robin Day anymore? I exclude PB readers from the above,
    People no longer understand that if they want better infrastructure and public services, they need to pay more tax. Politicians aren’t interested in any spending that doesn’t give a return before the next election.
    In Scotland, there has been an obvious decline since 2014, maybe due to waning of optimism and pride in community.
    Sadly, I don’t see it changing any time soon, as the country being run for the benefit of the inactive elderly, and those with assets, rather than those with drive and ambition.

    +1

    I find this myself. If I'm reading an old-fashioned paper newspaper I read a far wider variety of articles than I do when reading the same paper online. It's too easy to click on the articles that already support your point of view.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,481
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    So you mean we've gone from around 180% more than Poland to around 33% more?

    That means, and I hate to break it to you, that they've been growing a lot quicker than us.
    But if we've both added - say - £20k per person to GDP over the past 30 years, what's the problem?
    You'd expect Poland to grow faster as it is released from the artificial penury of communism.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,726
    rcs1000 said:

    The only way is up.


    I would want to see who they define as "peer countries".
    I think that was an FT graph, will try to find it.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    According to that data, the UK’s GDP per capita (PPP) was almost three times that of Poland’s in 1990, and now just one third larger.

    Not that this is surprising or especially enlightening.

    Removing London / SE from the equation, which after all is only 1/3 of the UK population, might be interesting.
    If the UK's GDP per capita had stayed 3 times larger than growing Poland's, our GDP per cap would now be $110,000, making us by far the richest big country in the world, and we'd be laughing at those impoverished Norwegians and Swiss


    The fact is mature economies don't continue growing as young economies, because it is easy to explode GDP in the early days - an agrarian region which adds its first factory will see GDP soar, a nation that goes from communism capitalism, generally likewise

    Poland has also had a stagnant or falling population for 30 years, very much unlike the UK
    Conversely, you would have expected that it would be the most ambitious and able people to have left for the UK, which you would have thought would weigh on GDP growth. (That has certainly been @stodge's argument historically.)
  • Options
    On the 'things are in decline' discussion its a widespread problem:

    In France, there are fewer doctors now than in 2012. More than 6 million people, including 600,000 with chronic illnesses, do not have a regular GP and 30% of the population does not have adequate access to health services.

    In Germany, 35,000 care sector posts were vacant last year, 40% more than a decade ago, while a report this summer said that by 2035 more than a third of all health jobs could be unfilled. Facing unprecedented hospital overcrowding due to “a severe shortage of nurses”, even Finland will need 200,000 new workers in the health and social care sector by 2030.

    In Spain, the health ministry announced in May that more than 700,000 people were waiting for surgery, and 5,000 frontline GPs and paediatricians in Madrid have been on strike for nearly a month in protest at years of underfunding and overwork.


    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/14/a-ticking-time-bomb-healthcare-under-threat-across-western-europe
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,862
    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    So you mean we've gone from around 180% more than Poland to around 33% more?

    That means, and I hate to break it to you, that they've been growing a lot quicker than us.
    But if we've both added - say - £20k per person to GDP over the past 30 years, what's the problem?
    You'd expect Poland to grow faster as it is released from the artificial penury of communism.
    Because the “mental map” is changing, as noted above.

    Britain used to be on a par with France and catching up with Germany or even US (for a brief moment in the 2000s).

    Now we are struggling to keep ahead of Spain and I do actually suspect that the UK “North” is on a par with Poland now.
  • Options

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    O/t - just seen in the paper that my friend's 15 year olf daughter (well, I presume it's her - conceivably there could be another Man City fan with hid name with a 15 year old daughter - shouldn't really deaden my outrage if it was soneone else, though, weirdly, it would) has been scarred for life after being hit by a pint glass filled with coins thrown by rivak fans at the Man City v Liverpool game last night. Awful. It's reported that he's complaining about City housinh Liverpool fans above City fansin the stand, but, seriously, in what otger sport do you even have to separate fans, let alone place them so they don't attempt to kill each other? Worst sport in the world.

    Ugh. That's terrible. Grrr. Sympathies!
    Turns out, yes, it was my friend's daughter.
    The scar looks absolutely horrific.
    Apparently LFC have been absolutely exemplary in their response - CEO on the phone this morning, promising to identify the perpetrator etc. But honestly - in what other context would you get "I am so angry that those people have a different favourite team to me that I am going to try to kill one, at random?" It clearly wasn't considered unusual enough behaviour amongst the fans in the throwing section to be commented adversely upon at tge time. Absolute sub-humans.
    Sympathies, I hope the girl gets the best possible surgery to help her.

    We discussed the new rise of football hooliganism on here a few weeks ago - cocaine fuelling a lot of it apparently, not that that's any kind of excuse.

    New radical approach to drugs required imo - legalise, heavily regulate*, tax.

    (*I'm thinking licensed sales from licensed premises to registered users.)
    But then the dealers would have a ready market of the "unregistered" users.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,862
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    According to that data, the UK’s GDP per capita (PPP) was almost three times that of Poland’s in 1990, and now just one third larger.

    Not that this is surprising or especially enlightening.

    Removing London / SE from the equation, which after all is only 1/3 of the UK population, might be interesting.
    If the UK's GDP per capita had stayed 3 times larger than growing Poland's, our GDP per cap would now be $110,000, making us by far the richest big country in the world, and we'd be laughing at those impoverished Norwegians and Swiss


    The fact is mature economies don't continue growing as young economies, because it is easy to explode GDP in the early days - an agrarian region which adds its first factory will see GDP soar, a nation that goes from communism capitalism, generally likewise

    Poland has also had a stagnant or falling population for 30 years, very much unlike the UK
    Conversely, you would have expected that it would be the most ambitious and able people to have left for the UK, which you would have thought would weigh on GDP growth. (That has certainly been @stodge's argument historically.)
    It is sometimes argued that FOM is pernicious because it drains the best and brightest, the argument is largely bollocks and @stodge should know better.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Tucker Carlson said Saturday he was throwing away his crystal ball after the 'humiliation' of the midterm results when the predicted red wave failed to materialize and several of his picks lost.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11550301/Tucker-Carlson-says-hes-getting-prediction-game-midterm-humiliation.html

    Has Tucker ever considered that its people like him and the rest of the MAGA crowd which might be responsible for the failure of his predicted red wave to materialise ?

    It's slightly surprising he accepts the midterms went wrong, not that they were stolen. Indeed, far fewer seemed to go that route than their prior comments (and buttkissing to Trump about 2020 being stolen) would suggest.

    I do laugh at the idea he was making predictions - pundits of that fervour don't make predictions, they just spout lines.
    The only one claiming to have lost unfairly is Kari Lake.

    Ironically she may well be right given the shambles the Arizona election was.

    But having gone down the '2020 was stolen' road she'd already lost credibility on the issue.

    And why the GOP encourages its supporters to vote on election day knowing the risks of disruption involved is a mystery to me.
    Nah: Ms Lake lost fairly and squarely.

    There was simply a lot of split ticket voting in AZ, and it was bad for Ms Lake and Mr Masters, and very good for the Republican Congressional delegation.
    There was but the election does seem to have been carried out with excessive problems.

    Which is not helpful when allegations have previously been made.
    Problems do occur in elections. Enough to make a difference is rare (though this was a close race), and the refress to be sought needs to be reasonable. Remember that one suit, in Pensylvannia I think, where on the basis of allegations alone they were trying to suggest millions of votes should be discounted?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    So you mean we've gone from around 180% more than Poland to around 33% more?

    That means, and I hate to break it to you, that they've been growing a lot quicker than us.
    But if we've both added - say - £20k per person to GDP over the past 30 years, what's the problem?
    You'd expect Poland to grow faster as it is released from the artificial penury of communism.
    Because the “mental map” is changing, as noted above.

    Britain used to be on a par with France and catching up with Germany or even US (for a brief moment in the 2000s).

    Now we are struggling to keep ahead of Spain and I do actually suspect that the UK “North” is on a par with Poland now.
    That's true, in fact I'd have assumed we were already behind Spain. It's not without hope, but we're getting poorer, comparitively.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031
    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    So you mean we've gone from around 180% more than Poland to around 33% more?

    That means, and I hate to break it to you, that they've been growing a lot quicker than us.
    But if we've both added - say - £20k per person to GDP over the past 30 years, what's the problem?
    You'd expect Poland to grow faster as it is released from the artificial penury of communism.
    There is no problem, and - as you say - you'd expect some catch up.

    Nevertheless, we haven't done as well as we should have done. We've fallen further behind, whether in terms of GDP per capita or real wages, many of our peers in Europe, North America, Australasia and Asia.

    Now, we've not been a disaster (like Italy or Greece), but nor should we be patting ourselves on the back and saying "job well done".
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,726

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    O/t - just seen in the paper that my friend's 15 year olf daughter (well, I presume it's her - conceivably there could be another Man City fan with hid name with a 15 year old daughter - shouldn't really deaden my outrage if it was soneone else, though, weirdly, it would) has been scarred for life after being hit by a pint glass filled with coins thrown by rivak fans at the Man City v Liverpool game last night. Awful. It's reported that he's complaining about City housinh Liverpool fans above City fansin the stand, but, seriously, in what otger sport do you even have to separate fans, let alone place them so they don't attempt to kill each other? Worst sport in the world.

    Ugh. That's terrible. Grrr. Sympathies!
    Turns out, yes, it was my friend's daughter.
    The scar looks absolutely horrific.
    Apparently LFC have been absolutely exemplary in their response - CEO on the phone this morning, promising to identify the perpetrator etc. But honestly - in what other context would you get "I am so angry that those people have a different favourite team to me that I am going to try to kill one, at random?" It clearly wasn't considered unusual enough behaviour amongst the fans in the throwing section to be commented adversely upon at tge time. Absolute sub-humans.
    Sympathies, I hope the girl gets the best possible surgery to help her.

    We discussed the new rise of football hooliganism on here a few weeks ago - cocaine fuelling a lot of it apparently, not that that's any kind of excuse.

    New radical approach to drugs required imo - legalise, heavily regulate*, tax.

    (*I'm thinking licensed sales from licensed premises to registered users.)
    But then the dealers would have a ready market of the "unregistered" users.
    Yeah good point, drop the registration requirement.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031
    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    So you mean we've gone from around 180% more than Poland to around 33% more?

    That means, and I hate to break it to you, that they've been growing a lot quicker than us.
    But if we've both added - say - £20k per person to GDP over the past 30 years, what's the problem?
    You'd expect Poland to grow faster as it is released from the artificial penury of communism.
    I would also point out that the East German Lander, have now mostly exceeded the poorer parts of the UK in terms of GDP per head. At some point it's not just catch up.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031
    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:


    It's entirely possible that ChatGPT is @Leon's mates.

    Do any of them like Radiohead?
    I asked ChatGPT:

    Radiohead is a highly influential and popular band that is known for their innovative and experimental approach to music. They have a devoted fan base that is drawn to their unique sound and thought-provoking lyrics. Many people appreciate the band's willingness to take risks and push the boundaries of traditional rock music, as well as their ability to create a sense of emotional depth and intensity in their music.

    Radiohead's music often explores complex themes such as politics, technology, and the human condition, and their lyrics are often poetic and thought-provoking. Their music has a broad appeal and has been described as a blend of alternative rock, art rock, and electronica, with elements of other genres such as folk, jazz, and experimental music.

    In addition to their musical achievements, Radiohead is also known for their commitment to social and environmental issues, which has further endeared them to their fans. Overall, Radiohead is a band that has garnered widespread critical acclaim and a devoted following due to their innovative and thought-provoking music and their commitment to important social and environmental issues.
  • Options

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    So you mean we've gone from around 180% more than Poland to around 33% more?

    That means, and I hate to break it to you, that they've been growing a lot quicker than us.
    But if we've both added - say - £20k per person to GDP over the past 30 years, what's the problem?
    You'd expect Poland to grow faster as it is released from the artificial penury of communism.
    Because the “mental map” is changing, as noted above.

    Britain used to be on a par with France and catching up with Germany or even US (for a brief moment in the 2000s).

    Now we are struggling to keep ahead of Spain and I do actually suspect that the UK “North” is on a par with Poland now.
    I'm in Sri Lanka for Christmas and was comparing notes on how fucked up our respective countries are with my wife's uncle. Sri Lanka is obviously in a much worst state than the UK, on paper at least - the power goes off here for an hour every evening, for a start. Weirdly though it feels much less depressed. It helps that it is warm and sunny and has blue skies, lush vegetation and delicious food, I suppose. Everyone here is interested in our Asian PM. I tell them he is an improvement on his two predecessors.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:


    It's entirely possible that ChatGPT is @Leon's mates.

    Do any of them like Radiohead?
    I asked ChatGPT:

    Radiohead is a highly influential and popular band that is known for their innovative and experimental approach to music. They have a devoted fan base that is drawn to their unique sound and thought-provoking lyrics. Many people appreciate the band's willingness to take risks and push the boundaries of traditional rock music, as well as their ability to create a sense of emotional depth and intensity in their music.

    Radiohead's music often explores complex themes such as politics, technology, and the human condition, and their lyrics are often poetic and thought-provoking. Their music has a broad appeal and has been described as a blend of alternative rock, art rock, and electronica, with elements of other genres such as folk, jazz, and experimental music.

    In addition to their musical achievements, Radiohead is also known for their commitment to social and environmental issues, which has further endeared them to their fans. Overall, Radiohead is a band that has garnered widespread critical acclaim and a devoted following due to their innovative and thought-provoking music and their commitment to important social and environmental issues.
    Although it's not so keen on Oasis:

    Some people may feel that Oasis's popularity was largely due to the band's style, image, and attitude rather than the quality of their music.

    Some people may feel that Oasis's music is too derivative of other bands, particularly the Beatles.

    Some people may feel that Oasis's music is not as innovative or original as other bands, and that the band's success was due more to their ability to replicate the sound of classic rock bands rather than creating something truly unique.

    Some people may feel that Oasis's lyrics are overly simplistic or cliched.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,892
    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    What an excellent post.You have captured the post Brexit mood perfectly though I would apply it more to England than Scotland. The country (particularly England) compared to other places in Europe is going down the toilet. It has never been this bad. I've just come back from France and Italy and the contrast is frankly embarrassing. My advice to anyone under 50 is to sell your homes and move before it gets even worse
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:


    It's entirely possible that ChatGPT is @Leon's mates.

    Do any of them like Radiohead?
    I asked ChatGPT:

    Radiohead is a highly influential and popular band that is known for their innovative and experimental approach to music. They have a devoted fan base that is drawn to their unique sound and thought-provoking lyrics. Many people appreciate the band's willingness to take risks and push the boundaries of traditional rock music, as well as their ability to create a sense of emotional depth and intensity in their music.

    Radiohead's music often explores complex themes such as politics, technology, and the human condition, and their lyrics are often poetic and thought-provoking. Their music has a broad appeal and has been described as a blend of alternative rock, art rock, and electronica, with elements of other genres such as folk, jazz, and experimental music.

    In addition to their musical achievements, Radiohead is also known for their commitment to social and environmental issues, which has further endeared them to their fans. Overall, Radiohead is a band that has garnered widespread critical acclaim and a devoted following due to their innovative and thought-provoking music and their commitment to important social and environmental issues.
    Although it's not so keen on Oasis:

    Some people may feel that Oasis's popularity was largely due to the band's style, image, and attitude rather than the quality of their music.

    Some people may feel that Oasis's music is too derivative of other bands, particularly the Beatles.

    Some people may feel that Oasis's music is not as innovative or original as other bands, and that the band's success was due more to their ability to replicate the sound of classic rock bands rather than creating something truly unique.

    Some people may feel that Oasis's lyrics are overly simplistic or cliched.
    Missed a trick with "some people might feel" instead if "some might say", surely. Unfair, too. The first Oasis album is really excellent and even the second is good in parts.
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,013
    edited December 2022
    rcs1000 said:

    The only way is up.


    I would want to see who they define as "peer countries".
    I thought we hashed this one over before. The PPP and exchange-rate adjustments, the equivalisation for household size, and housing costs, all seem to add significant error bands around any estimate. (Never mind that the "peer countries" are, essentially, countries that are persistently higher-income than the UK on average, like Norway.) Oddly and importantly, the Resolution Foundation's exercise pinned income decline on the GFC, whereas these figures with no source are pushing income decline way out to 2011.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Tucker Carlson said Saturday he was throwing away his crystal ball after the 'humiliation' of the midterm results when the predicted red wave failed to materialize and several of his picks lost.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11550301/Tucker-Carlson-says-hes-getting-prediction-game-midterm-humiliation.html

    Has Tucker ever considered that its people like him and the rest of the MAGA crowd which might be responsible for the failure of his predicted red wave to materialise ?

    It's slightly surprising he accepts the midterms went wrong, not that they were stolen. Indeed, far fewer seemed to go that route than their prior comments (and buttkissing to Trump about 2020 being stolen) would suggest.

    I do laugh at the idea he was making predictions - pundits of that fervour don't make predictions, they just spout lines.
    The only one claiming to have lost unfairly is Kari Lake.

    Ironically she may well be right given the shambles the Arizona election was.

    But having gone down the '2020 was stolen' road she'd already lost credibility on the issue.

    And why the GOP encourages its supporters to vote on election day knowing the risks of disruption involved is a mystery to me.
    Nah: Ms Lake lost fairly and squarely.

    There was simply a lot of split ticket voting in AZ, and it was bad for Ms Lake and Mr Masters, and very good for the Republican Congressional delegation.
    There was but the election does seem to have been carried out with excessive problems.

    Which is not helpful when allegations have previously been made.
    In Maricopa County (which, it should be noted is a Democrat leaning county), there were difficulties with the tabulation machines on the day of the election. This led to some people having to wait significant periods of time before voting.

    Nevertheless, Ms Lake has not been able to find people who were prevented from voting, nor indeed any evidence that this would have disproportionately affected Republican voters.

  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    So you mean we've gone from around 180% more than Poland to around 33% more?

    That means, and I hate to break it to you, that they've been growing a lot quicker than us.
    But if we've both added - say - £20k per person to GDP over the past 30 years, what's the problem?
    You'd expect Poland to grow faster as it is released from the artificial penury of communism.
    I would also point out that the East German Lander, have now mostly exceeded the poorer parts of the UK in terms of GDP per head. At some point it's not just catch up.
    I wonder how much variation there is within countries.

    I was amazed to read this:

    As a smaller local authority, the ONS do not have figures for the salary that would get you into the top 10% in Knowsley. But figures show that you needed to earn £43,050 to even get into the top 20% in Knowsley in 2022.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/64064200

    Given that Knowsley is one of the poorest areas in England there's still a lot of people doing very well financially there.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,862
    EPG said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The only way is up.


    I would want to see who they define as "peer countries".
    I thought we hashed this one over before. The PPP and exchange-rate adjustments, the equivalisation for household size, and housing costs, all seem to add significant error bands around any estimate. (Never mind that the "peer countries" are, essentially, countries that are persistently higher-income than the UK on average, like Norway.)
    Total head in the sand.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,073
    The christians have hijacked christmas.
    This may be the most Guardiany piece ever run in the Guardian https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1606325023635038209
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,477
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:


    It's entirely possible that ChatGPT is @Leon's mates.

    Do any of them like Radiohead?
    I asked ChatGPT:

    Radiohead is a highly influential and popular band that is known for their innovative and experimental approach to music. They have a devoted fan base that is drawn to their unique sound and thought-provoking lyrics. Many people appreciate the band's willingness to take risks and push the boundaries of traditional rock music, as well as their ability to create a sense of emotional depth and intensity in their music.

    Radiohead's music often explores complex themes such as politics, technology, and the human condition, and their lyrics are often poetic and thought-provoking. Their music has a broad appeal and has been described as a blend of alternative rock, art rock, and electronica, with elements of other genres such as folk, jazz, and experimental music.

    In addition to their musical achievements, Radiohead is also known for their commitment to social and environmental issues, which has further endeared them to their fans. Overall, Radiohead is a band that has garnered widespread critical acclaim and a devoted following due to their innovative and thought-provoking music and their commitment to important social and environmental issues.
    ChatRabbit asks:

    Have you got any Jockstrap?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1-x1GWu96o
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,101

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    So you mean we've gone from around 180% more than Poland to around 33% more?

    That means, and I hate to break it to you, that they've been growing a lot quicker than us.
    But if we've both added - say - £20k per person to GDP over the past 30 years, what's the problem?
    You'd expect Poland to grow faster as it is released from the artificial penury of communism.
    Because the “mental map” is changing, as noted above.

    Britain used to be on a par with France and catching up with Germany or even US (for a brief moment in the 2000s).

    Now we are struggling to keep ahead of Spain and I do actually suspect that the UK “North” is on a par with Poland now.
    It's plausible that Poland will eventually power ahead of France and Germany as the economic centre of gravity of Europe shifts. Western European societies all have the same afflictions in varying degrees.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:


    It's entirely possible that ChatGPT is @Leon's mates.

    Do any of them like Radiohead?
    I asked ChatGPT:

    Radiohead is a highly influential and popular band that is known for their innovative and experimental approach to music. They have a devoted fan base that is drawn to their unique sound and thought-provoking lyrics. Many people appreciate the band's willingness to take risks and push the boundaries of traditional rock music, as well as their ability to create a sense of emotional depth and intensity in their music.

    Radiohead's music often explores complex themes such as politics, technology, and the human condition, and their lyrics are often poetic and thought-provoking. Their music has a broad appeal and has been described as a blend of alternative rock, art rock, and electronica, with elements of other genres such as folk, jazz, and experimental music.

    In addition to their musical achievements, Radiohead is also known for their commitment to social and environmental issues, which has further endeared them to their fans. Overall, Radiohead is a band that has garnered widespread critical acclaim and a devoted following due to their innovative and thought-provoking music and their commitment to important social and environmental issues.
    is Die Hard a Christmas movie?...

    Die Hard is often considered a Christmas movie because it takes place on Christmas Eve and features many holiday themes, such as gift-giving, carol singing, and festive decorations. However, it is not a traditional Christmas movie in the sense that it does not focus on the celebration of Christmas or the themes of family and redemption that are often associated with the holiday. Die Hard is more accurately described as an action thriller that takes place during the Christmas season.

    Are we sure TSE isn't the man behind the curtain?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898
    Scott_xP said:

    The christians have hijacked christmas.
    This may be the most Guardiany piece ever run in the Guardian https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1606325023635038209

    That is a funny headline. As an atheist I'm all about the, shall we say, civic side of Christmas, but I would find it hard to bemoan the religious 'baggage'.

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    So you mean we've gone from around 180% more than Poland to around 33% more?

    That means, and I hate to break it to you, that they've been growing a lot quicker than us.
    But if we've both added - say - £20k per person to GDP over the past 30 years, what's the problem?
    You'd expect Poland to grow faster as it is released from the artificial penury of communism.
    Because the “mental map” is changing, as noted above.

    Britain used to be on a par with France and catching up with Germany or even US (for a brief moment in the 2000s).

    Now we are struggling to keep ahead of Spain and I do actually suspect that the UK “North” is on a par with Poland now.
    So, I was going to dispute your contention re Spain, but - on OECD numbers - the gap in real disposible income has almost disappeared between us and them.

    What's fascinating, though, is the reason: Spaniards earn 15-20% less than Brits, but their housing and other living costs are significantly lower.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,862
    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,073


    Are we sure TSE isn't the man behind the curtain?

    So it likes Radiohead and hates Die Hard.

    No further questions...
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031
    edited December 2022

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    So you mean we've gone from around 180% more than Poland to around 33% more?

    That means, and I hate to break it to you, that they've been growing a lot quicker than us.
    But if we've both added - say - £20k per person to GDP over the past 30 years, what's the problem?
    You'd expect Poland to grow faster as it is released from the artificial penury of communism.
    Because the “mental map” is changing, as noted above.

    Britain used to be on a par with France and catching up with Germany or even US (for a brief moment in the 2000s).

    Now we are struggling to keep ahead of Spain and I do actually suspect that the UK “North” is on a par with Poland now.
    It's plausible that Poland will eventually power ahead of France and Germany as the economic centre of gravity of Europe shifts. Western European societies all have the same afflictions in varying degrees.
    On the other hand, Poland now has the same demographic issues that have hampered Italy and Japan. My money would be on the UK and France outperforming them - percentage-wise - in the next decade.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,101
    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    So you mean we've gone from around 180% more than Poland to around 33% more?

    That means, and I hate to break it to you, that they've been growing a lot quicker than us.
    But if we've both added - say - £20k per person to GDP over the past 30 years, what's the problem?
    You'd expect Poland to grow faster as it is released from the artificial penury of communism.
    Because the “mental map” is changing, as noted above.

    Britain used to be on a par with France and catching up with Germany or even US (for a brief moment in the 2000s).

    Now we are struggling to keep ahead of Spain and I do actually suspect that the UK “North” is on a par with Poland now.
    So, I was going to dispute your contention re Spain, but - on OECD numbers - the gap in real disposible income has almost disappeared between us and them.

    What's fascinating, though, is the reason: Spaniards earn 15-20% less than Brits, but their housing and other living costs are significantly lower.
    We are paying the price for successive governments' wrong-headed attempts to keep our housing bubble inflated after 2007.
  • Options
    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,962
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:


    It's entirely possible that ChatGPT is @Leon's mates.

    Do any of them like Radiohead?
    I asked ChatGPT:

    Radiohead is a highly influential and popular band that is known for their innovative and experimental approach to music. They have a devoted fan base that is drawn to their unique sound and thought-provoking lyrics. Many people appreciate the band's willingness to take risks and push the boundaries of traditional rock music, as well as their ability to create a sense of emotional depth and intensity in their music.

    Radiohead's music often explores complex themes such as politics, technology, and the human condition, and their lyrics are often poetic and thought-provoking. Their music has a broad appeal and has been described as a blend of alternative rock, art rock, and electronica, with elements of other genres such as folk, jazz, and experimental music.

    In addition to their musical achievements, Radiohead is also known for their commitment to social and environmental issues, which has further endeared them to their fans. Overall, Radiohead is a band that has garnered widespread critical acclaim and a devoted following due to their innovative and thought-provoking music and their commitment to important social and environmental issues.
    Shades of Patrick Bateman's Huey Lewis monologue, there. Are we sure ChatGPT isn't an axe murderer secretly plotting to kill us all?
  • Options
    This GPTChat thing clearly knows nothing...

    Are Radiohead a good live band?

    Radiohead is generally considered to be a very good live band, with a reputation for putting on dynamic and engaging performances. Many fans and critics have praised Radiohead's live shows for their energy, creativity, and intensity.
  • Options

    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    Look at countries like Spain.

    Any city of any size has a metro or trams, they have a new massive high speed rail network.

    They have been investing heavily in infrastructure to grow the economy for a long time now.

    Meanwhile in the UK.....
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Tucker Carlson said Saturday he was throwing away his crystal ball after the 'humiliation' of the midterm results when the predicted red wave failed to materialize and several of his picks lost.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11550301/Tucker-Carlson-says-hes-getting-prediction-game-midterm-humiliation.html

    Has Tucker ever considered that its people like him and the rest of the MAGA crowd which might be responsible for the failure of his predicted red wave to materialise ?

    It's slightly surprising he accepts the midterms went wrong, not that they were stolen. Indeed, far fewer seemed to go that route than their prior comments (and buttkissing to Trump about 2020 being stolen) would suggest.

    I do laugh at the idea he was making predictions - pundits of that fervour don't make predictions, they just spout lines.
    The only one claiming to have lost unfairly is Kari Lake.

    Ironically she may well be right given the shambles the Arizona election was.

    But having gone down the '2020 was stolen' road she'd already lost credibility on the issue.

    And why the GOP encourages its supporters to vote on election day knowing the risks of disruption involved is a mystery to me.
    Nah: Ms Lake lost fairly and squarely.

    There was simply a lot of split ticket voting in AZ, and it was bad for Ms Lake and Mr Masters, and very good for the Republican Congressional delegation.
    There was but the election does seem to have been carried out with excessive problems.

    Which is not helpful when allegations have previously been made.
    In Maricopa County (which, it should be noted is a Democrat leaning county), there were difficulties with the tabulation machines on the day of the election. This led to some people having to wait significant periods of time before voting.

    Nevertheless, Ms Lake has not been able to find people who were prevented from voting, nor indeed any evidence that this would have disproportionately affected Republican voters.

    Long queues for anything discourage people.

    How many it would have directly affected I don't know but I do know its not a good look when people are already willing to cast doubt on the fairness of an election.

    And it would have affected GOP voters more because GOP voters are proportionally much more likely to vote on the day.

    Which is why I previously said I'm baffled as to why the GOP encourage their supporters to vote in person on the day.
  • Options
    Robert, any way you can zappppppp Veronica Grifter and her fellow for-profit spammers that have just started appearing on here?
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,101
    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    So you mean we've gone from around 180% more than Poland to around 33% more?

    That means, and I hate to break it to you, that they've been growing a lot quicker than us.
    But if we've both added - say - £20k per person to GDP over the past 30 years, what's the problem?
    You'd expect Poland to grow faster as it is released from the artificial penury of communism.
    Because the “mental map” is changing, as noted above.

    Britain used to be on a par with France and catching up with Germany or even US (for a brief moment in the 2000s).

    Now we are struggling to keep ahead of Spain and I do actually suspect that the UK “North” is on a par with Poland now.
    It's plausible that Poland will eventually power ahead of France and Germany as the economic centre of gravity of Europe shifts. Western European societies all have the same afflictions in varying degrees.
    On the other hand, Poland now has the same demographic issues that have hampered Italy and Japan. My money would be on the UK and France outperforming them - percentage-wise - in the next decade.
    How many million Ukrainians is it currently hosting? In theory they might have a demographic problem, but in practice, they don't.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,856
    kle4 said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    MSP Vote Breakdown (by party) on the #GRR 🏳️‍⚧️🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

    Grn 🟢
    Y: 100%
    N: 0%

    LD: 🟠
    Y: 100%
    N: 0%

    SNP: 🟡
    Y: 82%
    N: 14%

    Lab: 🔴
    Y: 81%
    N: 9%

    Con: 🔵
    Y: 9%
    N: 84%
    ———
    MSP Vote Breakdown (by Gender*) on the #GRR 🏳️‍⚧️🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

    Yes-
    M: 66%
    F: 68%

    No-
    M: 32%
    F: 27%

    DNV-
    M: 1%
    F: 3%

    (*Note - there are currently no out MSPs that identify as NB or another Gender)


    https://twitter.com/camiglasgowsgp/status/1605985361850732544?s=46&t=EgPZBF2I8aWmM9eBC7V34g

    Ironically Alba joined the SCons to oppose the GRC Bill. While Sturgeon lined up with SLAB, the Greens and LDs to back it.

    No Unionist, Nationalist divide there

    https://twitter.com/JNHanvey/status/1605999055603085312?t=zIgon9eomLnkwJeo7kJ-dA&s=19
    Note too some Scottish Nationalists, who Alba represent, are pretty socially conservative.

    Braveheart's Mel Gibson is a Trump supporter

    https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/mel-gibson-trump-ufc-fight-b1882964.html?amp=
    Are you sitting down? I want you to sit down, Mr HYUFD. I have bad news for you. Mr Gibson is an actor. He is, also, Australian (and US born). And in the film Braveheart he was acting. You know, making up stories about what he isn't in real life.

    If you get your views of Scottish politics from a dodgy history film ...
    I never saw Outlaw King, that might be better.
    Never seen it. Unlike at least one PBer, I seem to prefer books to films for my history - like his claim that Charles II's time was a peaceful one. Which is complete nonsense. It was known as the Killing Time for good reason.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,726
    I see it's 'hell in a handcart' afternoon here today.

    FWIW while I greatly appreciate Cicero's Estonia posts, I think he is being unduly negative about the UK.

    All is not lost, though we have had a poor decade. That's happened before and will no doubt happen again, but we could also have a good decade or two coming up.

    What the UK does have going for it is: a diverse, vibrant society with many creative, inventive individuals. We have good prospects for renewable energy. Our language is an advantage in today's world. Compared to to our peers we are relatively free of bureaucracy. We have arguably one of, if not the, most important cities in the world.

    I won't rehearse the UK's disadvantages, these have been widely and correctly expressed earlier by others, but all is not lost.

    We could make a good start in moving forward by getting rid of this f*cking awful, moribund government; anything would be better than the current mob.
  • Options
    Scott_xP said:


    Are we sure TSE isn't the man behind the curtain?

    So it likes Radiohead and hates Die Hard.

    No further questions...
    It does recommend Nyetimber as the best British sparkling wine.....

    Are we sure it hasn't just been trained on PB posts?
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The christians have hijacked christmas.
    This may be the most Guardiany piece ever run in the Guardian https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1606325023635038209

    That is a funny headline. As an atheist I'm all about the, shall we say, civic side of Christmas, but I would find it hard to bemoan the religious 'baggage'.

    Christmas is a funny one though, it's obviously a pagan festival repurposed by Christians in Europe to sell their new religion, and many of the elements we enjoy, like Father Christmas or Christmas trees, have sweet FA to do with Christianity. On the other hand, I am an atheist who loves singing Christmas carols and finds the story of the little baby Jesus in the manger very seductive. I just let the whole crazy cultural mish-mash wash over me and try to enjoy the bits I like. None of it is coherent for me, but it's what we've got.
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,230

    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    Look at countries like Spain.

    Any city of any size has a metro or trams, they have a new massive high speed rail network.

    They have been investing heavily in infrastructure to grow the economy for a long time now.

    Meanwhile in the UK.....
    HS2 and crossrail are two of the largest infrastructure projects in Europe in recent years.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,862

    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    Look at countries like Spain.

    Any city of any size has a metro or trams, they have a new massive high speed rail network.

    They have been investing heavily in infrastructure to grow the economy for a long time now.

    Meanwhile in the UK.....
    …Leeds is the largest city in Europe without a mass transit system…etc etc
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The christians have hijacked christmas.
    This may be the most Guardiany piece ever run in the Guardian https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1606325023635038209

    That is a funny headline. As an atheist I'm all about the, shall we say, civic side of Christmas, but I would find it hard to bemoan the religious 'baggage'.

    Christmas is a funny one though, it's obviously a pagan festival repurposed by Christians in Europe to sell their new religion, and many of the elements we enjoy, like Father Christmas or Christmas trees, have sweet FA to do with Christianity. On the other hand, I am an atheist who loves singing Christmas carols and finds the story of the little baby Jesus in the manger very seductive. I just let the whole crazy cultural mish-mash wash over me and try to enjoy the bits I like. None of it is coherent for me, but it's what we've got.
    There's plenty not very Christian about various modern rituals associated with the holidays (I believe the 'it's all repurposed' idea can get taken too far). But it is still ostensibly a Christian event, so the element that does remain really isn't baggage.
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,013

    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    Look at countries like Spain.

    Any city of any size has a metro or trams, they have a new massive high speed rail network.

    They have been investing heavily in infrastructure to grow the economy for a long time now.

    Meanwhile in the UK.....
    They have gleaming investment and yet their kids fan out over freezing Northern Europe because a job is better than no job. That's the funny thing about investment: you can build it, make it look cool, and still people might not use it to generate economic activity (i.e. tax revenue).
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    So you mean we've gone from around 180% more than Poland to around 33% more?

    That means, and I hate to break it to you, that they've been growing a lot quicker than us.
    But if we've both added - say - £20k per person to GDP over the past 30 years, what's the problem?
    You'd expect Poland to grow faster as it is released from the artificial penury of communism.
    Because the “mental map” is changing, as noted above.

    Britain used to be on a par with France and catching up with Germany or even US (for a brief moment in the 2000s).

    Now we are struggling to keep ahead of Spain and I do actually suspect that the UK “North” is on a par with Poland now.
    So, I was going to dispute your contention re Spain, but - on OECD numbers - the gap in real disposible income has almost disappeared between us and them.

    What's fascinating, though, is the reason: Spaniards earn 15-20% less than Brits, but their housing and other living costs are significantly lower.
    But housing costs vary enormously per person.

    If you've paid off your mortgage then they can be minimal.

    While for others they can take almost all of their earnings.

    Meaning there can be huge differences in standard of living between similar people in this country merely because of differences in age or location.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031
    edited December 2022

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    So you mean we've gone from around 180% more than Poland to around 33% more?

    That means, and I hate to break it to you, that they've been growing a lot quicker than us.
    But if we've both added - say - £20k per person to GDP over the past 30 years, what's the problem?
    You'd expect Poland to grow faster as it is released from the artificial penury of communism.
    Because the “mental map” is changing, as noted above.

    Britain used to be on a par with France and catching up with Germany or even US (for a brief moment in the 2000s).

    Now we are struggling to keep ahead of Spain and I do actually suspect that the UK “North” is on a par with Poland now.
    So, I was going to dispute your contention re Spain, but - on OECD numbers - the gap in real disposible income has almost disappeared between us and them.

    What's fascinating, though, is the reason: Spaniards earn 15-20% less than Brits, but their housing and other living costs are significantly lower.
    We are paying the price for successive governments' wrong-headed attempts to keep our housing bubble inflated after 2007.
    Yes: Spain had a terrible housing bust, and it was incredibly painful. But they are now reaping the rewards.

    We would probably have been better off if we'd followed in their footsteps.

    ---

    Just to add to that: the Spanish housing bust also forced household saving up to sensible levels, and means that the country now runs a balanced current account. Something that - sadly - still seems to be beyond the UK.
  • Options

    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    Look at countries like Spain.

    Any city of any size has a metro or trams, they have a new massive high speed rail network.

    They have been investing heavily in infrastructure to grow the economy for a long time now.

    Meanwhile in the UK.....
    …Leeds is the largest city in Europe without a mass transit system…etc etc
    Every time I visit family in Leeds I'm blown away by how bad their public transport situation is. How was that even allowed to happen? The level of civil neglect in the UK is almost pathological.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,321

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The christians have hijacked christmas.
    This may be the most Guardiany piece ever run in the Guardian https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1606325023635038209

    That is a funny headline. As an atheist I'm all about the, shall we say, civic side of Christmas, but I would find it hard to bemoan the religious 'baggage'.

    Christmas is a funny one though, it's obviously a pagan festival repurposed by Christians in Europe to sell their new religion, and many of the elements we enjoy, like Father Christmas or Christmas trees, have sweet FA to do with Christianity.
    Oh, not again.

    You might find this enlightening.

    https://historyforatheists.com/2020/12/pagan-christmas/
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,073

    Scott_xP said:


    Are we sure TSE isn't the man behind the curtain?

    So it likes Radiohead and hates Die Hard.

    No further questions...
    It does recommend Nyetimber as the best British sparkling wine.....

    Are we sure it hasn't just been trained on PB posts?
    PB was just an AI experiment all along...
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,230

    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    Look at countries like Spain.

    Any city of any size has a metro or trams, they have a new massive high speed rail network.

    They have been investing heavily in infrastructure to grow the economy for a long time now.

    Meanwhile in the UK.....
    …Leeds is the largest city in Europe without a mass transit system…etc etc
    Nitpick: Buses are mass transit, you mean rapid transit.

    The leeds metro plans seem to be moving along:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-55822915
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    So you mean we've gone from around 180% more than Poland to around 33% more?

    That means, and I hate to break it to you, that they've been growing a lot quicker than us.
    But if we've both added - say - £20k per person to GDP over the past 30 years, what's the problem?
    You'd expect Poland to grow faster as it is released from the artificial penury of communism.
    Because the “mental map” is changing, as noted above.

    Britain used to be on a par with France and catching up with Germany or even US (for a brief moment in the 2000s).

    Now we are struggling to keep ahead of Spain and I do actually suspect that the UK “North” is on a par with Poland now.
    So, I was going to dispute your contention re Spain, but - on OECD numbers - the gap in real disposible income has almost disappeared between us and them.

    What's fascinating, though, is the reason: Spaniards earn 15-20% less than Brits, but their housing and other living costs are significantly lower.
    But housing costs vary enormously per person.

    If you've paid off your mortgage then they can be minimal.

    While for others they can take almost all of their earnings.

    Meaning there can be huge differences in standard of living between similar people in this country merely because of differences in age or location.
    Of course: but on average, Brits spend a higher proportion of their income on housing than almost every peer country.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898
    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:


    Are we sure TSE isn't the man behind the curtain?

    So it likes Radiohead and hates Die Hard.

    No further questions...
    It does recommend Nyetimber as the best British sparkling wine.....

    Are we sure it hasn't just been trained on PB posts?
    PB was just an AI experiment all along...
    It was pretty obvious, I even marked myself as the fourth iteration, and adopted that evasively smug attitude chatbots adopt.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,321
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The christians have hijacked christmas.
    This may be the most Guardiany piece ever run in the Guardian https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1606325023635038209

    That is a funny headline. As an atheist I'm all about the, shall we say, civic side of Christmas, but I would find it hard to bemoan the religious 'baggage'.

    I am irresistibly reminded of the wise words of Uncyclopaedia on Polly Toynbee:

    'She preaches weekly sermons on the plight of the poor from the point of view of an obnoxiously rich person, who has her head stuck so far up her arse she views the world through her own mouth.'
  • Options
    carnforth said:

    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    Look at countries like Spain.

    Any city of any size has a metro or trams, they have a new massive high speed rail network.

    They have been investing heavily in infrastructure to grow the economy for a long time now.

    Meanwhile in the UK.....
    HS2 and crossrail are two of the largest infrastructure projects in Europe in recent years.
    True, though Crossrail is in That Here London, as are the Jubilee Line Extension and Overground. And London is doing fine.

    Elsewhere, the pickings are much thinner. We know what ought to be done, but we drag our feet something rotten about doing it. See the way that HS2 has been quibbled about and pruned, and some people would happily bin it tomorrow.

  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,101

    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    You can maybe trace it back to the myth of Black Wednesday making it politically toxic to deal with the housing market in a rational way.

    Gordon Brown promised not to led house prices get out of control but then proceeded to look the other way while allowing the biggest bubble of all time to inflate.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,321
    carnforth said:

    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    Look at countries like Spain.

    Any city of any size has a metro or trams, they have a new massive high speed rail network.

    They have been investing heavily in infrastructure to grow the economy for a long time now.

    Meanwhile in the UK.....
    …Leeds is the largest city in Europe without a mass transit system…etc etc
    Nitpick: Buses are mass transit, you mean rapid transit.

    The leeds metro plans seem to be moving along:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-55822915
    But the trams aren't...
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The christians have hijacked christmas.
    This may be the most Guardiany piece ever run in the Guardian https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1606325023635038209

    That is a funny headline. As an atheist I'm all about the, shall we say, civic side of Christmas, but I would find it hard to bemoan the religious 'baggage'.

    Christmas is a funny one though, it's obviously a pagan festival repurposed by Christians in Europe to sell their new religion, and many of the elements we enjoy, like Father Christmas or Christmas trees, have sweet FA to do with Christianity. On the other hand, I am an atheist who loves singing Christmas carols and finds the story of the little baby Jesus in the manger very seductive. I just let the whole crazy cultural mish-mash wash over me and try to enjoy the bits I like. None of it is coherent for me, but it's what we've got.
    There's plenty not very Christian about various modern rituals associated with the holidays (I believe the 'it's all repurposed' idea can get taken too far). But it is still ostensibly a Christian event, so the element that does remain really isn't baggage.
    Baggage isn't the word I'd use, but I think for most people in the UK the Christian element has been largely buried under everything else. I'm not offering any opinion on whether this is a good or a bad thing - I would describe myself as a Christian atheist.
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,014

    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    Look at countries like Spain.

    Any city of any size has a metro or trams, they have a new massive high speed rail network.

    They have been investing heavily in infrastructure to grow the economy for a long time now.

    Meanwhile in the UK.....

    I see it's 'hell in a handcart' afternoon here today.

    FWIW while I greatly appreciate Cicero's Estonia posts, I think he is being unduly negative about the UK.

    All is not lost, though we have had a poor decade. That's happened before and will no doubt happen again, but we could also have a good decade or two coming up.

    What the UK does have going for it is: a diverse, vibrant society with many creative, inventive individuals. We have good prospects for renewable energy. Our language is an advantage in today's world. Compared to to our peers we are relatively free of bureaucracy. We have arguably one of, if not the, most important cities in the world.

    I won't rehearse the UK's disadvantages, these have been widely and correctly expressed earlier by others, but all is not lost.

    We could make a good start in moving forward by getting rid of this f*cking awful, moribund government; anything would be better than the current mob.

    Hopefully we will start moving forward after the 2024 election, when the Tories, and all they stand for, are consigned to the dustbin of history. Hopefully they will get long enough in power, preferably with other parties in support, to cancel out the damage of the past few years.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,031
    EPG said:

    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    Look at countries like Spain.

    Any city of any size has a metro or trams, they have a new massive high speed rail network.

    They have been investing heavily in infrastructure to grow the economy for a long time now.

    Meanwhile in the UK.....
    They have gleaming investment and yet their kids fan out over freezing Northern Europe because a job is better than no job. That's the funny thing about investment: you can build it, make it look cool, and still people might not use it to generate economic activity (i.e. tax revenue).
    Back in 2000, just under 15 million Spaniards were employed. Right now, it's 20.5 million.

    That's better growth that the UK managed in the same period.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,862
    edited December 2022

    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    Look at countries like Spain.

    Any city of any size has a metro or trams, they have a new massive high speed rail network.

    They have been investing heavily in infrastructure to grow the economy for a long time now.

    Meanwhile in the UK.....
    …Leeds is the largest city in Europe without a mass transit system…etc etc
    Every time I visit family in Leeds I'm blown away by how bad their public transport situation is. How was that even allowed to happen? The level of civil neglect in the UK is almost pathological.
    As I posted above, the Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-Sheffield cluster is one of the biggest in Europe and therefore potentially hugely productive in an age of economic agglomeration.

    Unfortunately such agglomeration requires employers to be able to access wide pools of talent easily, which is not really possible without either a mass metro (like Europe) or the relative space/lack of congestion of places like Houston or Phoenix in the US.
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,230
    EPG said:

    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    Look at countries like Spain.

    Any city of any size has a metro or trams, they have a new massive high speed rail network.

    They have been investing heavily in infrastructure to grow the economy for a long time now.

    Meanwhile in the UK.....
    They have gleaming investment and yet their kids fan out over freezing Northern Europe because a job is better than no job. That's the funny thing about investment: you can build it, make it look cool, and still people might not use it to generate economic activity (i.e. tax revenue).
    Spanish high speed rail is often underutilised. There are, for example, only three direct trains from Granada to Seville each day. Many Spanish cities, being separated by desert or mountains, do not have very close historical economic ties. Whether the trains which eventually generate those ties, I don't know.
  • Options

    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    Look at countries like Spain.

    Any city of any size has a metro or trams, they have a new massive high speed rail network.

    They have been investing heavily in infrastructure to grow the economy for a long time now.

    Meanwhile in the UK.....
    Meanwhile in the UK Birmingham, Edinburgh, Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham and Sheffield have light rail and Glasgow and Liverpool have underground systems.

    I'm not sure that Britain's economic problems are the result of Leeds being excessively dependent upon buses.
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,013
    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    So you mean we've gone from around 180% more than Poland to around 33% more?

    That means, and I hate to break it to you, that they've been growing a lot quicker than us.
    But if we've both added - say - £20k per person to GDP over the past 30 years, what's the problem?
    You'd expect Poland to grow faster as it is released from the artificial penury of communism.
    I would also point out that the East German Lander, have now mostly exceeded the poorer parts of the UK in terms of GDP per head. At some point it's not just catch up.
    In part because East German Laender have much higher outward migration rates among the people generating least economic output: the jobless in the small-town periphery. A typical example is the state of Sachsen-Anhalt which has shed a quarter of its population since unification, and still falling.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,504
    Scott_xP said:

    The christians have hijacked christmas.
    This may be the most Guardiany piece ever run in the Guardian https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1606325023635038209

    Pollyfilla once penned a piece about how angry she was that libertarians should get a positive press just for being interested in peoples rights.

    She wanted the name “Libertarian” to be used by those who printed the liberty ( as defined by her ) of the collective, by submitting to state control and oversight on everything. Starting with comprehensive state surveillance to stamp out crime and inequality….

  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,862
    edited December 2022

    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    Look at countries like Spain.

    Any city of any size has a metro or trams, they have a new massive high speed rail network.

    They have been investing heavily in infrastructure to grow the economy for a long time now.

    Meanwhile in the UK.....
    Meanwhile in the UK Birmingham, Edinburgh, Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham and Sheffield have light rail and Glasgow and Liverpool have underground systems.

    I'm not sure that Britain's economic problems are the result of Leeds being excessively dependent upon buses.
    The systems are puny and half-hearted compared with peer cities.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited December 2022
    LOL....GPT-Chat is so inconsistent. After telling my Die Hard isn't a Christmas movie, I ask it to recommend some Christmas movies, perhaps with a bit of action....

    Die Hard, Lethal Weapon.....

    All the nonsense of getting close to AGI, its miles off. The trick behind the curtain is quickly revealed.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,504

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The christians have hijacked christmas.
    This may be the most Guardiany piece ever run in the Guardian https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1606325023635038209

    That is a funny headline. As an atheist I'm all about the, shall we say, civic side of Christmas, but I would find it hard to bemoan the religious 'baggage'.

    Christmas is a funny one though, it's obviously a pagan festival repurposed by Christians in Europe to sell their new religion, and many of the elements we enjoy, like Father Christmas or Christmas trees, have sweet FA to do with Christianity. On the other hand, I am an atheist who loves singing Christmas carols and finds the story of the little baby Jesus in the manger very seductive. I just let the whole crazy cultural mish-mash wash over me and try to enjoy the bits I like. None of it is coherent for me, but it's what we've got.
    There's plenty not very Christian about various modern rituals associated with the holidays (I believe the 'it's all repurposed' idea can get taken too far). But it is still ostensibly a Christian event, so the element that does remain really isn't baggage.
    Baggage isn't the word I'd use, but I think for most people in the UK the Christian element has been largely buried under everything else. I'm not offering any opinion on whether this is a good or a bad thing - I would describe myself as a Christian atheist.
    I suggested to the local CoE reverend that we should abolish Christmas and replace it with a religious based festival of some kind. He did like the idea..
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    EPG said:

    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    Look at countries like Spain.

    Any city of any size has a metro or trams, they have a new massive high speed rail network.

    They have been investing heavily in infrastructure to grow the economy for a long time now.

    Meanwhile in the UK.....
    They have gleaming investment and yet their kids fan out over freezing Northern Europe because a job is better than no job. That's the funny thing about investment: you can build it, make it look cool, and still people might not use it to generate economic activity (i.e. tax revenue).
    Back in 2000, just under 15 million Spaniards were employed. Right now, it's 20.5 million.

    That's better growth that the UK managed in the same period.
    Employment in Spain was also 20.5 million in 2007 and below that for almost all the time since.

    There was a remarkable growth in employment in the 15 years before 2008 but stagnation since then.
  • Options
    ManchesterKurtManchesterKurt Posts: 898
    edited December 2022

    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    Look at countries like Spain.

    Any city of any size has a metro or trams, they have a new massive high speed rail network.

    They have been investing heavily in infrastructure to grow the economy for a long time now.

    Meanwhile in the UK.....
    Meanwhile in the UK Birmingham, Edinburgh, Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham and Sheffield have light rail and Glasgow and Liverpool have underground systems.

    I'm not sure that Britain's economic problems are the result of Leeds being excessively dependent upon buses.
    The systems are puny and half-hearted compared with peer cities.
    Exactly

    Look at Germany, France, Italy, Spain and the rest of western Europe, medium sized cities have extensive tram networks, they all have extensive (and growing) high speed rail networks.

    In the UK we have failed to invest in infrastructure outside the South East and as a result we don't see the productivity and wealth we see across Western Europe outside of the South East.
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,013
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    So you mean we've gone from around 180% more than Poland to around 33% more?

    That means, and I hate to break it to you, that they've been growing a lot quicker than us.
    But if we've both added - say - £20k per person to GDP over the past 30 years, what's the problem?
    You'd expect Poland to grow faster as it is released from the artificial penury of communism.
    Because the “mental map” is changing, as noted above.

    Britain used to be on a par with France and catching up with Germany or even US (for a brief moment in the 2000s).

    Now we are struggling to keep ahead of Spain and I do actually suspect that the UK “North” is on a par with Poland now.
    So, I was going to dispute your contention re Spain, but - on OECD numbers - the gap in real disposible income has almost disappeared between us and them.

    What's fascinating, though, is the reason: Spaniards earn 15-20% less than Brits, but their housing and other living costs are significantly lower.
    But housing costs vary enormously per person.

    If you've paid off your mortgage then they can be minimal.

    While for others they can take almost all of their earnings.

    Meaning there can be huge differences in standard of living between similar people in this country merely because of differences in age or location.
    Of course: but on average, Brits spend a higher proportion of their income on housing than almost every peer country.
    They also end up with more housing, and more housing assets, so I never know quite what to make of this reasoning. It's like saying: buying more iPhones out of disposable income than your neighbour country adds to your well-being, but buying the equivalent additional housing doesn't.
  • Options

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Tucker Carlson said Saturday he was throwing away his crystal ball after the 'humiliation' of the midterm results when the predicted red wave failed to materialize and several of his picks lost.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11550301/Tucker-Carlson-says-hes-getting-prediction-game-midterm-humiliation.html

    Has Tucker ever considered that its people like him and the rest of the MAGA crowd which might be responsible for the failure of his predicted red wave to materialise ?

    It's slightly surprising he accepts the midterms went wrong, not that they were stolen. Indeed, far fewer seemed to go that route than their prior comments (and buttkissing to Trump about 2020 being stolen) would suggest.

    I do laugh at the idea he was making predictions - pundits of that fervour don't make predictions, they just spout lines.
    The only one claiming to have lost unfairly is Kari Lake.

    Ironically she may well be right given the shambles the Arizona election was.

    But having gone down the '2020 was stolen' road she'd already lost credibility on the issue.

    And why the GOP encourages its supporters to vote on election day knowing the risks of disruption involved is a mystery to me.
    Nah: Ms Lake lost fairly and squarely.

    There was simply a lot of split ticket voting in AZ, and it was bad for Ms Lake and Mr Masters, and very good for the Republican Congressional delegation.
    There was but the election does seem to have been carried out with excessive problems.

    Which is not helpful when allegations have previously been made.
    In Maricopa County (which, it should be noted is a Democrat leaning county), there were difficulties with the tabulation machines on the day of the election. This led to some people having to wait significant periods of time before voting.

    Nevertheless, Ms Lake has not been able to find people who were prevented from voting, nor indeed any evidence that this would have disproportionately affected Republican voters.

    Long queues for anything discourage people.

    How many it would have directly affected I don't know but I do know its not a good look when people are already willing to cast doubt on the fairness of an election.

    And it would have affected GOP voters more because GOP voters are proportionally much more likely to vote on the day.

    Which is why I previously said I'm baffled as to why the GOP encourage their supporters to vote in person on the day.
    The GOP now seems to be recognising this and moving towards a vote early strategy.

    However, while Lake lost, she has a reasonably valid point re the lines. Imagine if, in Georgia for example, there had been similar issues surrounding early voting lines in places like Fulton and DeKalb counties. Joe Biden, Stacey Abrams etc would have been proclaiming how it was a national scandal, Jim Crow 2.0 etc



  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The christians have hijacked christmas.
    This may be the most Guardiany piece ever run in the Guardian https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1606325023635038209

    That is a funny headline. As an atheist I'm all about the, shall we say, civic side of Christmas, but I would find it hard to bemoan the religious 'baggage'.

    Christmas is a funny one though, it's obviously a pagan festival repurposed by Christians in Europe to sell their new religion, and many of the elements we enjoy, like Father Christmas or Christmas trees, have sweet FA to do with Christianity.
    Oh, not again.

    You might find this enlightening.

    https://historyforatheists.com/2020/12/pagan-christmas/
    Have you got an abridged version? It seems to consist mainly of debunking claims I'd never even heard of. It just seems to me unlikely to be a coincidence that Christians scheduled one of their major festivals at the same time as the winter solstice in the northern hemisphere, or that this festival has become the main one in the Christian calendar, coinciding with the time when people most need cheering up. Similarly, I think it's fairly uncontroversial that many elements of Christmas celebrations don't derive from scripture.
  • Options

    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    Look at countries like Spain.

    Any city of any size has a metro or trams, they have a new massive high speed rail network.

    They have been investing heavily in infrastructure to grow the economy for a long time now.

    Meanwhile in the UK.....

    I see it's 'hell in a handcart' afternoon here today.

    FWIW while I greatly appreciate Cicero's Estonia posts, I think he is being unduly negative about the UK.

    All is not lost, though we have had a poor decade. That's happened before and will no doubt happen again, but we could also have a good decade or two coming up.

    What the UK does have going for it is: a diverse, vibrant society with many creative, inventive individuals. We have good prospects for renewable energy. Our language is an advantage in today's world. Compared to to our peers we are relatively free of bureaucracy. We have arguably one of, if not the, most important cities in the world.

    I won't rehearse the UK's disadvantages, these have been widely and correctly expressed earlier by others, but all is not lost.

    We could make a good start in moving forward by getting rid of this f*cking awful, moribund government; anything would be better than the current mob.

    Hopefully we will start moving forward after the 2024 election, when the Tories, and all they stand for, are consigned to the dustbin of history. Hopefully they will get long enough in power, preferably with other parties in support, to cancel out the damage of the past few years.
    How do you think SKS and a Labour Government will transform the country for the better?

    My main worry about SKS is that, so far, he's been successful in being slippery when it comes to the spirit, if not the letter, of some of his actions. I don't think that bodes well for the country.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,073
    🚨NEW Westminster Voting Intention

    📈17pt Labour Lead

    🌹Lab 45 (=)
    🌳Con 28 (-1)
    🔶LD 9 (+1)
    ➡️Reform 5 (-1)
    🎗️SNP 5 (+2)
    🌍Green 3 (=)
    ⬜️Other 5 (=)

    2,024 UK adults, 16-18 Dec

    (chg from 9-11 Dec) https://twitter.com/Savanta_UK/status/1606337286643277824/photo/1
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,013
    edited December 2022
    rcs1000 said:

    EPG said:

    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    Look at countries like Spain.

    Any city of any size has a metro or trams, they have a new massive high speed rail network.

    They have been investing heavily in infrastructure to grow the economy for a long time now.

    Meanwhile in the UK.....
    They have gleaming investment and yet their kids fan out over freezing Northern Europe because a job is better than no job. That's the funny thing about investment: you can build it, make it look cool, and still people might not use it to generate economic activity (i.e. tax revenue).
    Back in 2000, just under 15 million Spaniards were employed. Right now, it's 20.5 million.

    That's better growth that the UK managed in the same period.
    Because their population grew more rapidly. Looking at unemployment rates, Spain's was 15% in 2000 and remains closer to 15% than 10% today. The UK's unemployment rate is south of 5%; Spain's has rarely gone under 10%. Spain is a great country in which to be a skilled, middle-class worker. For the other half, outcomes can be as miserable as in the medieval bits of Italy.
  • Options
    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,962

    LOL....GPT-Chat is so inconsistent. After telling my Die Hard isn't a Christmas movie, I ask it to recommend some Christmas movies, perhaps with a bit of action....

    Die Hard, Lethal Weapon.....

    All the nonsense of getting close to AGI, its miles off. The trick behind the curtain is quickly revealed.

    You're doing it wrong.

    It's great at being creative, it's crap at being a replacement for Google. Where I've asked it things with right-or-wrong answers, it gets it wrong a statistically significant percentage of the time.

    Where it excels, however, is in creativity. Try something like, "Write a synopsis for a new Die Hard movie set on Christmas Eve. The villain should be a department store Santa who kidnaps the real Santa Claus."

    Then once it's done that, try something like "Rewrite the above synopsis to be more in the style of a french arthouse film, encompassing the themes of loneliness and existential dread."

    I'll not cut and paste what it gave me in response to these prompts, but it raised a chuckle.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,073
    Best PM ratings:

    Sunak 37% (-1)
    Starmer 37% (+2)
    Don't know 26% (-1)

    2,024 UK adults, 16-18 Dec

    (chg from 11-13 Nov) https://twitter.com/Savanta_UK/status/1606337655263973376/photo/1
  • Options

    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    Look at countries like Spain.

    Any city of any size has a metro or trams, they have a new massive high speed rail network.

    They have been investing heavily in infrastructure to grow the economy for a long time now.

    Meanwhile in the UK.....
    Meanwhile in the UK Birmingham, Edinburgh, Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham and Sheffield have light rail and Glasgow and Liverpool have underground systems.

    I'm not sure that Britain's economic problems are the result of Leeds being excessively dependent upon buses.
    The systems are puny and half-hearted compared with peer cities.
    Exactly

    Look at Germany, France, Italy, Spain and the rest of western Europe, medium sized cities have extensive tram networks, they all have extensive (and growing) high speed rail networks.

    In the UK we have failed to invest in infrastructure outside the South East and as a result we don't see the productivity and wealth we see across Western Europe outside of the South East.
    And here's a take on why this matters. Rush hour buses are slow and unreliable, which limits the economic power of provincial cities in England;

    https://www.tomforth.co.uk/birminghamisasmallcity/
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited December 2022
    I see the French have reacted the way the French react to everything....time for riot.

    Attacking the police, when it appears a hero police officer stopped this attack being far worse by fighting with the gunman to get the gun.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,321

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The christians have hijacked christmas.
    This may be the most Guardiany piece ever run in the Guardian https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1606325023635038209

    That is a funny headline. As an atheist I'm all about the, shall we say, civic side of Christmas, but I would find it hard to bemoan the religious 'baggage'.

    Christmas is a funny one though, it's obviously a pagan festival repurposed by Christians in Europe to sell their new religion, and many of the elements we enjoy, like Father Christmas or Christmas trees, have sweet FA to do with Christianity.
    Oh, not again.

    You might find this enlightening.

    https://historyforatheists.com/2020/12/pagan-christmas/
    Have you got an abridged version? It seems to consist mainly of debunking claims I'd never even heard of. It just seems to me unlikely to be a coincidence that Christians scheduled one of their major festivals at the same time as the winter solstice in the northern hemisphere, or that this festival has become the main one in the Christian calendar, coinciding with the time when people most need cheering up. Similarly, I think it's fairly uncontroversial that many elements of Christmas celebrations don't derive from scripture.
    Whether it seems an unlikely coincidence to you or not, the evidence suggests it was a coincidence, based on the idea Jesus died on the same day he was conceived which was believed to be the 25th March.

    Similarly, it's uncontroversial that while many elements (e.g. Christmas trees) are not scriptural in origin, neither are they pagan.

    If we don't want to read it fine, but don't claim things are 'obvious' from a position of ignorance or at best, limited knowledge and then refuse to engage with the actual scholarship when it is presented to you. If I'm honest, I thought it would interest you.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,862
    EPG said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    So you mean we've gone from around 180% more than Poland to around 33% more?

    That means, and I hate to break it to you, that they've been growing a lot quicker than us.
    But if we've both added - say - £20k per person to GDP over the past 30 years, what's the problem?
    You'd expect Poland to grow faster as it is released from the artificial penury of communism.
    Because the “mental map” is changing, as noted above.

    Britain used to be on a par with France and catching up with Germany or even US (for a brief moment in the 2000s).

    Now we are struggling to keep ahead of Spain and I do actually suspect that the UK “North” is on a par with Poland now.
    So, I was going to dispute your contention re Spain, but - on OECD numbers - the gap in real disposible income has almost disappeared between us and them.

    What's fascinating, though, is the reason: Spaniards earn 15-20% less than Brits, but their housing and other living costs are significantly lower.
    But housing costs vary enormously per person.

    If you've paid off your mortgage then they can be minimal.

    While for others they can take almost all of their earnings.

    Meaning there can be huge differences in standard of living between similar people in this country merely because of differences in age or location.
    Of course: but on average, Brits spend a higher proportion of their income on housing than almost every peer country.
    They also end up with more housing, and more housing assets, so I never know quite what to make of this reasoning. It's like saying: buying more iPhones out of disposable income than your neighbour country adds to your well-being, but buying the equivalent additional housing doesn't.
    It doesn’t add enough to your well-being if prices are inflated beyond affordability and you can’t afford childcare and a season ticket etc.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898
    edited December 2022

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The christians have hijacked christmas.
    This may be the most Guardiany piece ever run in the Guardian https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1606325023635038209

    That is a funny headline. As an atheist I'm all about the, shall we say, civic side of Christmas, but I would find it hard to bemoan the religious 'baggage'.

    Christmas is a funny one though, it's obviously a pagan festival repurposed by Christians in Europe to sell their new religion, and many of the elements we enjoy, like Father Christmas or Christmas trees, have sweet FA to do with Christianity.
    Oh, not again.

    You might find this enlightening.

    https://historyforatheists.com/2020/12/pagan-christmas/
    Similarly, I think it's fairly uncontroversial that many elements of Christmas celebrations don't derive from scripture.
    No, but that's a long way from the overdone claim that Christmas simply is a pagan festival, rebranded. Many elements of Christmas celebrations are relatively recent, yet the claims go far beyond that (which plenty of Christians would be happy to lament, even as others do not mind) into essentially, on the basis of dates, that Christmas basically wasn't a real thing. You see prominent atheists say similar things all the time.

    As an atheist myself, I think they get overblown and lazy about it. It's far too easy a solution to say that Christmas, which has a lot of modern trappings, isn't really real as a Christian event.
  • Options
    EPG said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    So you mean we've gone from around 180% more than Poland to around 33% more?

    That means, and I hate to break it to you, that they've been growing a lot quicker than us.
    But if we've both added - say - £20k per person to GDP over the past 30 years, what's the problem?
    You'd expect Poland to grow faster as it is released from the artificial penury of communism.
    Because the “mental map” is changing, as noted above.

    Britain used to be on a par with France and catching up with Germany or even US (for a brief moment in the 2000s).

    Now we are struggling to keep ahead of Spain and I do actually suspect that the UK “North” is on a par with Poland now.
    So, I was going to dispute your contention re Spain, but - on OECD numbers - the gap in real disposible income has almost disappeared between us and them.

    What's fascinating, though, is the reason: Spaniards earn 15-20% less than Brits, but their housing and other living costs are significantly lower.
    But housing costs vary enormously per person.

    If you've paid off your mortgage then they can be minimal.

    While for others they can take almost all of their earnings.

    Meaning there can be huge differences in standard of living between similar people in this country merely because of differences in age or location.
    Of course: but on average, Brits spend a higher proportion of their income on housing than almost every peer country.
    They also end up with more housing, and more housing assets, so I never know quite what to make of this reasoning. It's like saying: buying more iPhones out of disposable income than your neighbour country adds to your well-being, but buying the equivalent additional housing doesn't.
    There are also some other distorting effects which Robert doesn't mention.

    For example, in many countries on the Continent, getting credit is a rigorous process. That includes mortgages which are overwhelmingly repayment and where (God forbid) you miss one of your payments can have severe consequences.

    We had a mini housing crash in this country in the early 1990s. While economically it played out well in the end, it also fed into the high house prices we see today as people bought property at cut values and then made substantial gains.


  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,014
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Just back in the UK for a few days. Driving North on the M6 was pretty interesting. Basically the infrastructure constructed in the 1960s/70s is trying to cope with the traffic levels of 50 years later, and despite band-aid fixes like the so-called "smart Motorways", it is failing badly.

    Small fixes in the rail system only upgrade things from a Victorian level and the strikes make the system unusable anyway- last Wednesday I was quoted over £300 for a single ticket on trainline from London to the Cotswolds. In any event it should not take nearly three hours to complete a 90 mile journey.

    It left me reflecting that the NHS strikes in England are just another stunning failure of leadership. Everywhere you look the whole country looks dreary and run down. It takes longer to drive to Scotland from the South than it did 30 years ago.

    Schools in Scotland are in complete crisis, and previous Scottish excellence in, for example, STEM subjects has just evaporated. At every level political intervention and incompetence is evident, and all the Scottish Parliament can point to is legislation, which- whatever its merits- is addressing the concerns and rights of an stunningly small minority. The point is that everyone has an opinion on Trans rights, whereas few understand the scale of the economic mess that both Scotland and England now face. Several members of my family have had to up sticks and leave Scotland because the systems they rely on do not deliver what they are supposed to do.

    Although the party of government is clearly bereft of ideas and talent, the entire political system is sclerotic and creaking. The national conversation is mean and small and leading nowhere: In Scotland the Nats shut down all debate unless on their own terms, and it is a bitter and pointless mess. Brutal and aggressive the atmosphere is increasingly coarse and threatening. In England the milquetoast Tory leadership feebly protest that corruption is not that bad... failing to recognize how angry voters are at the fiasco of the last 6 years.

    I am sure that most people, like me after only 4 days here, are just shouting at the TV as some PR bullshit line is paraded past the graphics heavy/information lite interviewers.

    If we get the governments we deserve, it seems that the voters must be apathetic and defeated on both sides of the border.

    One thing is for sure, the fate of the world is certainly not being decided by the pygmy leaders in either London or in Edinburgh.

    Great that you’ve popped back to give us the benefit of your vicariously held opinions. We really don’t get enough of that on PB.
    I have to say I have travelled down to Heathrow and back in the last 24 hours to pick up my son and daughter in-law and do not recognise the description of the M6 particularly as I use the toll road.

    Furthermore I have travelled to Lossiemouth from Llandudno since 1965 and the travel times are immeasurably better though the A9 lack of dualling is a long standing issue

    Yes we have problems but so do many other countries including those in Europe
    The difference is that other countries do not ignore their problems until it is too late. Travelling on Polish Roads over the past 30 years has been transformed, for example. The speed limit on what is now the A96 is down to 50 in several places, because junctions were never upgraded. I can remember how things were before -say- the Forfar bypass was built in the mid eighties, but since then things have not been maintained. As noted the Motorway viaducts in Birmingham will need to be replaced soon and the costs are going be scarily high. Who has the leadership skills to explain to the Brits how bad things will be if we don´t start fixing things up even at the cost of disruption to millions...
    You do have an incredibly negative view of the UK.
    Well, I do have the privilege of seeing other countries where the problems are neither so serious nor so ignored. The astonishing modernization of countries like Estonia and Poland is exciting and actually rather moving, given the horrors of 20th century history.

    I am not so much negative as irritated that it did not have to be this way. The issues we face could have been addressed a long time ago but largely for short term political convenience they were let to drift until they became a really serious problem. In a way I am an optimist, I believe that reform can actually deliver us a better country.
    A comparison between Polish and UK GDP per capita (PPP) from 1990-now


    The countries grow in remarkable lockstep, with a few exceptions - the GFC and Covid hit the UK worse, tho at the other times Poland's growth has been a little slower

    The UK's GDP per cap remains $12k ahead of Poland's

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=PL-GB
    So you mean we've gone from around 180% more than Poland to around 33% more?

    That means, and I hate to break it to you, that they've been growing a lot quicker than us.
    But if we've both added - say - £20k per person to GDP over the past 30 years, what's the problem?
    You'd expect Poland to grow faster as it is released from the artificial penury of communism.
    Because the “mental map” is changing, as noted above.

    Britain used to be on a par with France and catching up with Germany or even US (for a brief moment in the 2000s).

    Now we are struggling to keep ahead of Spain and I do actually suspect that the UK “North” is on a par with Poland now.
    So, I was going to dispute your contention re Spain, but - on OECD numbers - the gap in real disposible income has almost disappeared between us and them.

    What's fascinating, though, is the reason: Spaniards earn 15-20% less than Brits, but their housing and other living costs are significantly lower.
    We are paying the price for successive governments' wrong-headed attempts to keep our housing bubble inflated after 2007.
    Yes: Spain had a terrible housing bust, and it was incredibly painful. But they are now reaping the rewards.

    We would probably have been better off if we'd followed in their footsteps.

    ---

    Just to add to that: the Spanish housing bust also forced household saving up to sensible levels, and means that the country now runs a balanced current account. Something that - sadly - still seems to be beyond the UK.
    I know something had to be done about commission driven financial “advisers”, but did we throw the baby out with the bathwater when Gordon Brown and FSA made investing unaffordable for most people?
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    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    Look at countries like Spain.

    Any city of any size has a metro or trams, they have a new massive high speed rail network.

    They have been investing heavily in infrastructure to grow the economy for a long time now.

    Meanwhile in the UK.....
    Meanwhile in the UK Birmingham, Edinburgh, Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham and Sheffield have light rail and Glasgow and Liverpool have underground systems.

    I'm not sure that Britain's economic problems are the result of Leeds being excessively dependent upon buses.
    The systems are puny and half-hearted compared with peer cities.
    Exactly

    Look at Germany, France, Italy, Spain and the rest of western Europe, medium sized cities have extensive tram networks, they all have extensive (and growing) high speed rail networks.

    In the UK we have failed to invest in infrastructure outside the South East and as a result we don't see the productivity and wealth we see across Western Europe outside of the South East.
    And here's a take on why this matters. Rush hour buses are slow and unreliable, which limits the economic power of provincial cities in England;

    https://www.tomforth.co.uk/birminghamisasmallcity/
    A quick check on Google suggests over 60 different German towns and cities have an operating tram networks.

    Other than Metrolink in Manchester, no other UK city has close to a comprehensive tram network and non where outside London has a real underground.

    We only have high speed rail going from London to the continent and a whole heap of mostly southerners complaining about the idea of taking high speed rail north, so much so half of the northern section has been cancelled.
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    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    Look at countries like Spain.

    Any city of any size has a metro or trams, they have a new massive high speed rail network.

    They have been investing heavily in infrastructure to grow the economy for a long time now.

    Meanwhile in the UK.....
    Meanwhile in the UK Birmingham, Edinburgh, Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham and Sheffield have light rail and Glasgow and Liverpool have underground systems.

    I'm not sure that Britain's economic problems are the result of Leeds being excessively dependent upon buses.
    The systems are puny and half-hearted compared with peer cities.
    I don't know about the others but the Manchester, Newcastle and Sheffield systems are extensive.

    Nor does not being served by Sheffield super-tram stop Hallam being the most affluent part of the city.

    Light rail systems might be nice to have for those who benefit from them but they're no quick fix to this countries problems.
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    EPG said:

    rcs1000 said:

    EPG said:

    Anyway, you can poke at the data for long time. The overall picture is pretty clear and things looks set to get worse before they get better.

    The more interesting question is why?

    In essence, it seems Britain has failed to invest for quite a long time, and has spent its money bidding up an inflexible housing market instead.

    Lots and lots of complexity underneath that, but that to me is the core of it.

    Look at countries like Spain.

    Any city of any size has a metro or trams, they have a new massive high speed rail network.

    They have been investing heavily in infrastructure to grow the economy for a long time now.

    Meanwhile in the UK.....
    They have gleaming investment and yet their kids fan out over freezing Northern Europe because a job is better than no job. That's the funny thing about investment: you can build it, make it look cool, and still people might not use it to generate economic activity (i.e. tax revenue).
    Back in 2000, just under 15 million Spaniards were employed. Right now, it's 20.5 million.

    That's better growth that the UK managed in the same period.
    Because their population grew more rapidly. Looking at unemployment rates, Spain's was 15% in 2000 and remains closer to 15% than 10% today. The UK's unemployment rate is south of 5%; Spain's has rarely gone under 10%. Spain is a great country in which to be a skilled, middle-class worker. For the other half, outcomes can be as miserable as in the medieval bits of Italy.
    That's correct. The life of a professional middle class person in Spain (and France) today, strikingly, has many of the features of the 1950s
    / 1960s U.K. when it comes to living standards. You have a place in the country as well as in the city, you can send your children to good private schools (or state schools in well to do areas) and you still have money to spare.

    However, the life of poorer Spaniards and French are also very akin to their U.K. 1960s compatriots - living in not very good conditions (not slums but not that far off), poor access to many facilities etc.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,084
    Scott_xP said:

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