Dominic Raab’s terrible YouGov favourability ratings – politicalbetting.com

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Dominic Raab’s terrible YouGov favourability ratings – politicalbetting.com

Of all the leader ratings formats the one I like the most is on favourability and like to think that PB played a part in YouGov’s development of this tracker series.

Read the full story here

tlg86

First like Argentina (with a bit of luck, Alexis Mac Allister will be partying in Buenos Aires on New Year's Eve, rather than playing against Arsenal at the Amex).

Ghedebrav

On topic (straight away!) has the Dishy one learned nowt from his pre-predecessor's downfall?

Raab wants binning ASAP.

TheScreamingEagles

Well done Alison Johnstone.

HYUFD

Raab was a key supporter of Sunak's in his leadership bid so only fair he repays the favour by not sacking Raab unless and until he is found guilty of wrongdoing

TheScreamingEagles

Still more popular than Boris Johnson at the end.

HYUFD

Note too how Sunak now polls significantly better than his party but Starmer polls worse than his party (albeit still better than Corbyn did)

Selebian

Surprised Hunt's so negative. I mean, he's a bit of a Hunt, but broadly competent and that should count for something. He shouldn't be within spitting distance of Raab or Braverman.

Selebian

FPT

Ghedebrav said:

TOPPING said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Benpointer said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

TOPPING said:

Benpointer said:

turbotubbs said:

SandyRentool said:

Driver said:

Sandpit said:

Driver said:

kinabalu said:

Driver said:

Northern_Al said:

kinabalu said:

Cookie said:

kinabalu said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Slackbladder said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Foxy said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

eristdoof said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

dixiedean said:

Second. Like I suspect France.

Dunno. I took 13/2 against France at the off but am considering how much to hedge on Argentina. France have looked vulnerable at the back in most matches they've played. Can the team beaten by Saudi Arabia beat the team who lost to Tunisia?

France played their reserves against Tunisia, while the Argies played their first team against the Saudis (though that scoreline was rather against the run of play).

The argies also struggled when the Netherlands went to a more direct route one approach, something the French do adeptly too.

It will be pretty close, but I fancy the French.

By rights it should be Argentina and Messi's. Argentina have not won it since 1986, France won it last time in 2018 and in 1998

Using this argument by rights England should have beaten France, because England have not won it since 1966, where as France won it last time and in 1998.

England won't win it until FIFA stop stiffing us with dodgy referees whenever we look like getting close.

Ahem, that equalising goal in 1966 normal time was definitely dodgy, but we won as a result...

True, but we had some clout back then so we got an even break, and better sometimes.

We've been at odds with FIFA for decades now and it shows. It's become very much more obvious now that we have a decent team. It took a great French side plus a crooked ref to beat us this time. We should be proud of our side.

The ref in the Argentina/Netherlands game raised a few Dutch eyebrows.

That said, and I'm not the first to say this, we do seem to have accepted this defeat philosophically.

We did what was expected of us. No more no less. One main issue with the England team is they don't often overperform which is what you need to win Trophies. We are very solid but don't often beat the other top teams

England are the only European team to have made the last 8 in the last three major international competitions, and they made the top 4 in two of them and the top 2 in one of them. I think that's a pretty good record and with a slightly different rub of the green the team would have lifted at least one trophy. If they can maintain that consistent quality then they will win eventually.

We're established as top tier now under Southgate. A real achievement. As for winning the WC or the Euros - but esp the WC - in the next decade or so I think we can be optimistic but it's still odds against. There's such fine margins at the business end of the knockout stages. You have to win 3 big pressurized matches in a row where in at least 2 of them the teams will be well matched. So you need to find a performance AND things have to fall for you. This latter aspect is underappreciated imo. There's a high element of randomness in play. And it doesn't all even out over the piece because WCs, like goals within a match, are rare events.

Yes, football is very unsatisfying in that regard. The opportunities to play other top 10 teams come round so rarely, and football is such a low scoring game dependent on how one or two moments turn out. England is at the stage now where they would expect to win against any of the teams outside the top 10, but wouldn't expect to beat other top 10 teams.
It's sort of an achievement that England have got to this level. And yet you can't help feeling given England's size and resources that this is the minimum level England should really be at. Getting to a quarter final of a major tournament is no better than par.

Test cricket is also hard to win, and can also turn on brief moments. But test cricket overcomes this shortcoming with the concept of the series. Imagine if test cricket involved not just ten countries, but all the countries - with matches against the top 10 only coming round once or twice every two years.

This is integral to the WC's appeal though - that it's only every 4 years and involves match-ups you rarely or never see in the meantime. It's why it feels so special. As to winning it, football is THE world game and there are so many countries aspiring to succeed. The breadth and depth is huge. In previous times not so much, meaning more chance of a country developing a team streets ahead of the rest and able to win the WC without relying too much on the randomness factor. One thinks of Brazil in 1970.

Not now. To win the WC in the modern era, with the game as this turbocharged globalized supersport that everybody wants a piece of, is the hardest thing in international team competition. It needs so many factors to come together. If we ever do manage it - or perhaps better put, if it ever happens to us - it'll be amazing. "Amazing" in both senses of the word. Here's hoping. I'm 62.

I take your point. But nevertheless, it doesn't seem unreasonable to compare England with our three major European rivals - France, Germany and Italy. In such a comparison, we are well behind all three since 1966.

"Since 1966" covers much more than the modern era. And those three are only our "major European rivals" because they have won the most, so it's a little bit of a circular argument.

Interesting to consider when the Modern Era starts. I'd say the 80s but that could be just talking my age. Maybe a bit later would be more accurate. Certainly 66 was another world. It's part of our national dna, which I buy into, they think it's all over, Hurst's hattrick, Russian linesman, "you've won it once now go out and win it again", Nobby's toothless jig, Mooro wiping his hands on his shorts before shaking the Queen's hand and being handed the Rimet - brings a lump it really does - but compared to now it was jumpers for goalposts, Winning then was easier than getting to the semis these days.

Certainly no later than 1990, I would say. Even that preceded the TV era and all its effects (not least the domination of the big few European leagues in hoovering up talent from all over the world). There's an argument that 1993 (CL won by Marseille) and 1995 (Ajax) were a different era too.

The real “Big Bang” moment in European football, was the founding of the Premier League in 1992, and the start of the massive influx of TV money seen since then.

Yes - especially with the European Cup becoming the Champions League at the same time.

The year club football died.

Not really. Still plenty of club football out there.

Club football in the 70s was pretty shite tbf... Hooligans, rampant racism, deathtrap grounds, mud pitches, leg-breaking tackles, ponderous football, etc, etc.

Sadly the hooligans bit is back. Big style. Largely cocaine-fuelled.

Speak to plod and they will say that the situation is back to the "bad old days".

A lot of goes under the radar, because it is focused away from the top leagues.

Fair enough but I don't see trains being trashed or running street battles outside grounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-VY2L-GHAU

I personally don't believe it is as bad as the 70s, but there is a surprising amount going on which really doesn't get much coverage. There is definitely plenty of footage of running street battles.

Here is Wrexham and Oldham fans have a nice afternoon out,

https://twitter.com/Jamie31426413/status/1576205069653250048

https://twitter.com/KJ00355197/status/1576454711250767873

Search on twitter for many things including "casual".

Here's a traditionally tasty fixture.

https://twitter.com/CasualChaps/status/1595536155793055793?cxt=HHwW4oCzhcTrvaQsAAAA

I fairly regularly go to lower league games, including away games, and *maybe* there is trouble if you look for it (and every fanbase has its band of morons who treat football as a fight club). But policing and supporter management is generally pretty good. The casuals usually have to enact their stupidity away from the ground and the main fan thoroughfares. I often go with one or other of my kids and never feel unsafe (in fact the idea that I'd feel unsafe doesn't even occur).

I wasn't around for football in the seventies or eighties, but the impression I get is that it was much worse then.

EDITED for the context that I am a bespectacled, nebbishy milquetoast.

Used to be my attitude until I was (almost) caught up in a Newport v Swansea brawl. Bad match, bad fan behaviour (coins thrown at officials/players) all a bit tense, but I wasn't prepared for the way it kicked off outside the ground. Luckily we were home team (Newport) and knew an alternative way out, but we'd have been in a spot of bother had we been the away support and clueless about where to go.

BlancheLivermore

I wonder if Corbyn could be persuaded to become Lord Palestine one day

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine,_Hampshire

Gardenwalker

Sunak has given an interview to Katy Balls in the Spectator. He comes across as mid level Accenture consultant. Truly depressing.

Eabhal

Handbags at Holyrood.

BlancheLivermore

Gardenwalker said:

Sunak has given an interview to Katy Balls in the Spectator. He comes across as mid level Accenture consultant. Truly depressing.

I've been pretty disappointed with him overall. I thought he'd have grown into the role quicker

Shut up; that's not a short man joke

Ghedebrav

Selebian said:

FPT

Ghedebrav said:

TOPPING said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Benpointer said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

TOPPING said:

Benpointer said:

turbotubbs said:

SandyRentool said:

Driver said:

Sandpit said:

Driver said:

kinabalu said:

Driver said:

Northern_Al said:

kinabalu said:

Cookie said:

kinabalu said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Slackbladder said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Foxy said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

eristdoof said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

dixiedean said:

Second. Like I suspect France.

Dunno. I took 13/2 against France at the off but am considering how much to hedge on Argentina. France have looked vulnerable at the back in most matches they've played. Can the team beaten by Saudi Arabia beat the team who lost to Tunisia?

France played their reserves against Tunisia, while the Argies played their first team against the Saudis (though that scoreline was rather against the run of play).

The argies also struggled when the Netherlands went to a more direct route one approach, something the French do adeptly too.

It will be pretty close, but I fancy the French.

By rights it should be Argentina and Messi's. Argentina have not won it since 1986, France won it last time in 2018 and in 1998

Using this argument by rights England should have beaten France, because England have not won it since 1966, where as France won it last time and in 1998.

England won't win it until FIFA stop stiffing us with dodgy referees whenever we look like getting close.

Ahem, that equalising goal in 1966 normal time was definitely dodgy, but we won as a result...

True, but we had some clout back then so we got an even break, and better sometimes.

We've been at odds with FIFA for decades now and it shows. It's become very much more obvious now that we have a decent team. It took a great French side plus a crooked ref to beat us this time. We should be proud of our side.

The ref in the Argentina/Netherlands game raised a few Dutch eyebrows.

That said, and I'm not the first to say this, we do seem to have accepted this defeat philosophically.

We did what was expected of us. No more no less. One main issue with the England team is they don't often overperform which is what you need to win Trophies. We are very solid but don't often beat the other top teams

England are the only European team to have made the last 8 in the last three major international competitions, and they made the top 4 in two of them and the top 2 in one of them. I think that's a pretty good record and with a slightly different rub of the green the team would have lifted at least one trophy. If they can maintain that consistent quality then they will win eventually.

We're established as top tier now under Southgate. A real achievement. As for winning the WC or the Euros - but esp the WC - in the next decade or so I think we can be optimistic but it's still odds against. There's such fine margins at the business end of the knockout stages. You have to win 3 big pressurized matches in a row where in at least 2 of them the teams will be well matched. So you need to find a performance AND things have to fall for you. This latter aspect is underappreciated imo. There's a high element of randomness in play. And it doesn't all even out over the piece because WCs, like goals within a match, are rare events.

Yes, football is very unsatisfying in that regard. The opportunities to play other top 10 teams come round so rarely, and football is such a low scoring game dependent on how one or two moments turn out. England is at the stage now where they would expect to win against any of the teams outside the top 10, but wouldn't expect to beat other top 10 teams.
It's sort of an achievement that England have got to this level. And yet you can't help feeling given England's size and resources that this is the minimum level England should really be at. Getting to a quarter final of a major tournament is no better than par.

Test cricket is also hard to win, and can also turn on brief moments. But test cricket overcomes this shortcoming with the concept of the series. Imagine if test cricket involved not just ten countries, but all the countries - with matches against the top 10 only coming round once or twice every two years.

This is integral to the WC's appeal though - that it's only every 4 years and involves match-ups you rarely or never see in the meantime. It's why it feels so special. As to winning it, football is THE world game and there are so many countries aspiring to succeed. The breadth and depth is huge. In previous times not so much, meaning more chance of a country developing a team streets ahead of the rest and able to win the WC without relying too much on the randomness factor. One thinks of Brazil in 1970.

Not now. To win the WC in the modern era, with the game as this turbocharged globalized supersport that everybody wants a piece of, is the hardest thing in international team competition. It needs so many factors to come together. If we ever do manage it - or perhaps better put, if it ever happens to us - it'll be amazing. "Amazing" in both senses of the word. Here's hoping. I'm 62.

I take your point. But nevertheless, it doesn't seem unreasonable to compare England with our three major European rivals - France, Germany and Italy. In such a comparison, we are well behind all three since 1966.

"Since 1966" covers much more than the modern era. And those three are only our "major European rivals" because they have won the most, so it's a little bit of a circular argument.

Interesting to consider when the Modern Era starts. I'd say the 80s but that could be just talking my age. Maybe a bit later would be more accurate. Certainly 66 was another world. It's part of our national dna, which I buy into, they think it's all over, Hurst's hattrick, Russian linesman, "you've won it once now go out and win it again", Nobby's toothless jig, Mooro wiping his hands on his shorts before shaking the Queen's hand and being handed the Rimet - brings a lump it really does - but compared to now it was jumpers for goalposts, Winning then was easier than getting to the semis these days.

Certainly no later than 1990, I would say. Even that preceded the TV era and all its effects (not least the domination of the big few European leagues in hoovering up talent from all over the world). There's an argument that 1993 (CL won by Marseille) and 1995 (Ajax) were a different era too.

The real “Big Bang” moment in European football, was the founding of the Premier League in 1992, and the start of the massive influx of TV money seen since then.

Yes - especially with the European Cup becoming the Champions League at the same time.

The year club football died.

Not really. Still plenty of club football out there.

Club football in the 70s was pretty shite tbf... Hooligans, rampant racism, deathtrap grounds, mud pitches, leg-breaking tackles, ponderous football, etc, etc.

Sadly the hooligans bit is back. Big style. Largely cocaine-fuelled.

Speak to plod and they will say that the situation is back to the "bad old days".

A lot of goes under the radar, because it is focused away from the top leagues.

Fair enough but I don't see trains being trashed or running street battles outside grounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-VY2L-GHAU

I personally don't believe it is as bad as the 70s, but there is a surprising amount going on which really doesn't get much coverage. There is definitely plenty of footage of running street battles.

Here is Wrexham and Oldham fans have a nice afternoon out,

https://twitter.com/Jamie31426413/status/1576205069653250048

https://twitter.com/KJ00355197/status/1576454711250767873

Search on twitter for many things including "casual".

Here's a traditionally tasty fixture.

https://twitter.com/CasualChaps/status/1595536155793055793?cxt=HHwW4oCzhcTrvaQsAAAA

I fairly regularly go to lower league games, including away games, and *maybe* there is trouble if you look for it (and every fanbase has its band of morons who treat football as a fight club). But policing and supporter management is generally pretty good. The casuals usually have to enact their stupidity away from the ground and the main fan thoroughfares. I often go with one or other of my kids and never feel unsafe (in fact the idea that I'd feel unsafe doesn't even occur).

I wasn't around for football in the seventies or eighties, but the impression I get is that it was much worse then.

EDITED for the context that I am a bespectacled, nebbishy milquetoast.

Used to be my attitude until I was (almost) caught up in a Newport v Swansea brawl. Bad match, bad fan behaviour (coins thrown at officials/players) all a bit tense, but I wasn't prepared for the way it kicked off outside the ground. Luckily we were home team (Newport) and knew an alternative way out, but we'd have been in a spot of bother had we been the away support and clueless about where to go.

Fair enough - and Swansea has a firm with a bit of a reputation so I can imagine a few of the local hard nuts wanting a pop as well. It is rubbish though. I love football and genuinely believe that fan culture is one of our great intangible treasures, but its underside is nasty and, unfortunately, still how a lot of non-fans think of it.

The daft thing is that casuals are generally pretty crap fans.

Andy_JS

Just discovered there's another Westminster by-election today, in Stretford and Urmston. Didn't know the local MP Kate Green had resigned.

kinabalu

Selebian said:

FPT

Ghedebrav said:

TOPPING said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Benpointer said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

TOPPING said:

Benpointer said:

turbotubbs said:

SandyRentool said:

Driver said:

Sandpit said:

Driver said:

kinabalu said:

Driver said:

Northern_Al said:

kinabalu said:

Cookie said:

kinabalu said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Slackbladder said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Foxy said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

eristdoof said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

dixiedean said:

Second. Like I suspect France.

Dunno. I took 13/2 against France at the off but am considering how much to hedge on Argentina. France have looked vulnerable at the back in most matches they've played. Can the team beaten by Saudi Arabia beat the team who lost to Tunisia?

France played their reserves against Tunisia, while the Argies played their first team against the Saudis (though that scoreline was rather against the run of play).

The argies also struggled when the Netherlands went to a more direct route one approach, something the French do adeptly too.

It will be pretty close, but I fancy the French.

By rights it should be Argentina and Messi's. Argentina have not won it since 1986, France won it last time in 2018 and in 1998

Using this argument by rights England should have beaten France, because England have not won it since 1966, where as France won it last time and in 1998.

England won't win it until FIFA stop stiffing us with dodgy referees whenever we look like getting close.

Ahem, that equalising goal in 1966 normal time was definitely dodgy, but we won as a result...

True, but we had some clout back then so we got an even break, and better sometimes.

We've been at odds with FIFA for decades now and it shows. It's become very much more obvious now that we have a decent team. It took a great French side plus a crooked ref to beat us this time. We should be proud of our side.

The ref in the Argentina/Netherlands game raised a few Dutch eyebrows.

That said, and I'm not the first to say this, we do seem to have accepted this defeat philosophically.

We did what was expected of us. No more no less. One main issue with the England team is they don't often overperform which is what you need to win Trophies. We are very solid but don't often beat the other top teams

England are the only European team to have made the last 8 in the last three major international competitions, and they made the top 4 in two of them and the top 2 in one of them. I think that's a pretty good record and with a slightly different rub of the green the team would have lifted at least one trophy. If they can maintain that consistent quality then they will win eventually.

We're established as top tier now under Southgate. A real achievement. As for winning the WC or the Euros - but esp the WC - in the next decade or so I think we can be optimistic but it's still odds against. There's such fine margins at the business end of the knockout stages. You have to win 3 big pressurized matches in a row where in at least 2 of them the teams will be well matched. So you need to find a performance AND things have to fall for you. This latter aspect is underappreciated imo. There's a high element of randomness in play. And it doesn't all even out over the piece because WCs, like goals within a match, are rare events.

Yes, football is very unsatisfying in that regard. The opportunities to play other top 10 teams come round so rarely, and football is such a low scoring game dependent on how one or two moments turn out. England is at the stage now where they would expect to win against any of the teams outside the top 10, but wouldn't expect to beat other top 10 teams.
It's sort of an achievement that England have got to this level. And yet you can't help feeling given England's size and resources that this is the minimum level England should really be at. Getting to a quarter final of a major tournament is no better than par.

Test cricket is also hard to win, and can also turn on brief moments. But test cricket overcomes this shortcoming with the concept of the series. Imagine if test cricket involved not just ten countries, but all the countries - with matches against the top 10 only coming round once or twice every two years.

This is integral to the WC's appeal though - that it's only every 4 years and involves match-ups you rarely or never see in the meantime. It's why it feels so special. As to winning it, football is THE world game and there are so many countries aspiring to succeed. The breadth and depth is huge. In previous times not so much, meaning more chance of a country developing a team streets ahead of the rest and able to win the WC without relying too much on the randomness factor. One thinks of Brazil in 1970.

Not now. To win the WC in the modern era, with the game as this turbocharged globalized supersport that everybody wants a piece of, is the hardest thing in international team competition. It needs so many factors to come together. If we ever do manage it - or perhaps better put, if it ever happens to us - it'll be amazing. "Amazing" in both senses of the word. Here's hoping. I'm 62.

I take your point. But nevertheless, it doesn't seem unreasonable to compare England with our three major European rivals - France, Germany and Italy. In such a comparison, we are well behind all three since 1966.

"Since 1966" covers much more than the modern era. And those three are only our "major European rivals" because they have won the most, so it's a little bit of a circular argument.

Interesting to consider when the Modern Era starts. I'd say the 80s but that could be just talking my age. Maybe a bit later would be more accurate. Certainly 66 was another world. It's part of our national dna, which I buy into, they think it's all over, Hurst's hattrick, Russian linesman, "you've won it once now go out and win it again", Nobby's toothless jig, Mooro wiping his hands on his shorts before shaking the Queen's hand and being handed the Rimet - brings a lump it really does - but compared to now it was jumpers for goalposts, Winning then was easier than getting to the semis these days.

Certainly no later than 1990, I would say. Even that preceded the TV era and all its effects (not least the domination of the big few European leagues in hoovering up talent from all over the world). There's an argument that 1993 (CL won by Marseille) and 1995 (Ajax) were a different era too.

The real “Big Bang” moment in European football, was the founding of the Premier League in 1992, and the start of the massive influx of TV money seen since then.

Yes - especially with the European Cup becoming the Champions League at the same time.

The year club football died.

Not really. Still plenty of club football out there.

Club football in the 70s was pretty shite tbf... Hooligans, rampant racism, deathtrap grounds, mud pitches, leg-breaking tackles, ponderous football, etc, etc.

Sadly the hooligans bit is back. Big style. Largely cocaine-fuelled.

Speak to plod and they will say that the situation is back to the "bad old days".

A lot of goes under the radar, because it is focused away from the top leagues.

Fair enough but I don't see trains being trashed or running street battles outside grounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-VY2L-GHAU

I personally don't believe it is as bad as the 70s, but there is a surprising amount going on which really doesn't get much coverage. There is definitely plenty of footage of running street battles.

Here is Wrexham and Oldham fans have a nice afternoon out,

https://twitter.com/Jamie31426413/status/1576205069653250048

https://twitter.com/KJ00355197/status/1576454711250767873

Search on twitter for many things including "casual".

Here's a traditionally tasty fixture.

https://twitter.com/CasualChaps/status/1595536155793055793?cxt=HHwW4oCzhcTrvaQsAAAA

I fairly regularly go to lower league games, including away games, and *maybe* there is trouble if you look for it (and every fanbase has its band of morons who treat football as a fight club). But policing and supporter management is generally pretty good. The casuals usually have to enact their stupidity away from the ground and the main fan thoroughfares. I often go with one or other of my kids and never feel unsafe (in fact the idea that I'd feel unsafe doesn't even occur).

I wasn't around for football in the seventies or eighties, but the impression I get is that it was much worse then.

EDITED for the context that I am a bespectacled, nebbishy milquetoast.

Used to be my attitude until I was (almost) caught up in a Newport v Swansea brawl. Bad match, bad fan behaviour (coins thrown at officials/players) all a bit tense, but I wasn't prepared for the way it kicked off outside the ground. Luckily we were home team (Newport) and knew an alternative way out, but we'd have been in a spot of bother had we been the away support and clueless about where to go.

My dad - who isn't short of opinions, he ought to come on here - insists that football hooliganism started with the followers of Liverpool's Shankly team in the 60s. Tells tales of them wazzing all over the terraces whereas before that, people just used to shake their rattles.

Gardenwalker

Andy_JS said:

Just discovered there's another Westminster by-election today, in Stretford and Urmston. Didn't know the local MP Kate Green had resigned.

Incredible. Haven’t even seen this mentioned on PB.

Chris

HYUFD said:

Raab was a key supporter of Sunak's in his leadership bid so only fair he repays the favour by not sacking Raab unless and until he is found guilty of wrongdoing

Letting your friends hang on well beyond their sell-by date worked so well for Boris, didn't it?

Gardenwalker

BlancheLivermore said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sunak has given an interview to Katy Balls in the Spectator. He comes across as mid level Accenture consultant. Truly depressing.

I've been pretty disappointed with him overall. I thought he'd have grown into the role quicker

Shut up; that's not a short man joke

Why did he want to be PM?
He appears to have no real conviction except what he seems to have read off a PPT.

Selebian

Ghedebrav said:

Selebian said:

FPT

Ghedebrav said:

TOPPING said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Benpointer said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

TOPPING said:

Benpointer said:

turbotubbs said:

SandyRentool said:

Driver said:

Sandpit said:

Driver said:

kinabalu said:

Driver said:

Northern_Al said:

kinabalu said:

Cookie said:

kinabalu said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Slackbladder said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Foxy said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

eristdoof said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

dixiedean said:

Second. Like I suspect France.

Dunno. I took 13/2 against France at the off but am considering how much to hedge on Argentina. France have looked vulnerable at the back in most matches they've played. Can the team beaten by Saudi Arabia beat the team who lost to Tunisia?

France played their reserves against Tunisia, while the Argies played their first team against the Saudis (though that scoreline was rather against the run of play).

The argies also struggled when the Netherlands went to a more direct route one approach, something the French do adeptly too.

It will be pretty close, but I fancy the French.

By rights it should be Argentina and Messi's. Argentina have not won it since 1986, France won it last time in 2018 and in 1998

Using this argument by rights England should have beaten France, because England have not won it since 1966, where as France won it last time and in 1998.

England won't win it until FIFA stop stiffing us with dodgy referees whenever we look like getting close.

Ahem, that equalising goal in 1966 normal time was definitely dodgy, but we won as a result...

True, but we had some clout back then so we got an even break, and better sometimes.

We've been at odds with FIFA for decades now and it shows. It's become very much more obvious now that we have a decent team. It took a great French side plus a crooked ref to beat us this time. We should be proud of our side.

The ref in the Argentina/Netherlands game raised a few Dutch eyebrows.

That said, and I'm not the first to say this, we do seem to have accepted this defeat philosophically.

We did what was expected of us. No more no less. One main issue with the England team is they don't often overperform which is what you need to win Trophies. We are very solid but don't often beat the other top teams

England are the only European team to have made the last 8 in the last three major international competitions, and they made the top 4 in two of them and the top 2 in one of them. I think that's a pretty good record and with a slightly different rub of the green the team would have lifted at least one trophy. If they can maintain that consistent quality then they will win eventually.

We're established as top tier now under Southgate. A real achievement. As for winning the WC or the Euros - but esp the WC - in the next decade or so I think we can be optimistic but it's still odds against. There's such fine margins at the business end of the knockout stages. You have to win 3 big pressurized matches in a row where in at least 2 of them the teams will be well matched. So you need to find a performance AND things have to fall for you. This latter aspect is underappreciated imo. There's a high element of randomness in play. And it doesn't all even out over the piece because WCs, like goals within a match, are rare events.

Yes, football is very unsatisfying in that regard. The opportunities to play other top 10 teams come round so rarely, and football is such a low scoring game dependent on how one or two moments turn out. England is at the stage now where they would expect to win against any of the teams outside the top 10, but wouldn't expect to beat other top 10 teams.
It's sort of an achievement that England have got to this level. And yet you can't help feeling given England's size and resources that this is the minimum level England should really be at. Getting to a quarter final of a major tournament is no better than par.

Test cricket is also hard to win, and can also turn on brief moments. But test cricket overcomes this shortcoming with the concept of the series. Imagine if test cricket involved not just ten countries, but all the countries - with matches against the top 10 only coming round once or twice every two years.

This is integral to the WC's appeal though - that it's only every 4 years and involves match-ups you rarely or never see in the meantime. It's why it feels so special. As to winning it, football is THE world game and there are so many countries aspiring to succeed. The breadth and depth is huge. In previous times not so much, meaning more chance of a country developing a team streets ahead of the rest and able to win the WC without relying too much on the randomness factor. One thinks of Brazil in 1970.

Not now. To win the WC in the modern era, with the game as this turbocharged globalized supersport that everybody wants a piece of, is the hardest thing in international team competition. It needs so many factors to come together. If we ever do manage it - or perhaps better put, if it ever happens to us - it'll be amazing. "Amazing" in both senses of the word. Here's hoping. I'm 62.

I take your point. But nevertheless, it doesn't seem unreasonable to compare England with our three major European rivals - France, Germany and Italy. In such a comparison, we are well behind all three since 1966.

"Since 1966" covers much more than the modern era. And those three are only our "major European rivals" because they have won the most, so it's a little bit of a circular argument.

Interesting to consider when the Modern Era starts. I'd say the 80s but that could be just talking my age. Maybe a bit later would be more accurate. Certainly 66 was another world. It's part of our national dna, which I buy into, they think it's all over, Hurst's hattrick, Russian linesman, "you've won it once now go out and win it again", Nobby's toothless jig, Mooro wiping his hands on his shorts before shaking the Queen's hand and being handed the Rimet - brings a lump it really does - but compared to now it was jumpers for goalposts, Winning then was easier than getting to the semis these days.

Certainly no later than 1990, I would say. Even that preceded the TV era and all its effects (not least the domination of the big few European leagues in hoovering up talent from all over the world). There's an argument that 1993 (CL won by Marseille) and 1995 (Ajax) were a different era too.

The real “Big Bang” moment in European football, was the founding of the Premier League in 1992, and the start of the massive influx of TV money seen since then.

Yes - especially with the European Cup becoming the Champions League at the same time.

The year club football died.

Not really. Still plenty of club football out there.

Club football in the 70s was pretty shite tbf... Hooligans, rampant racism, deathtrap grounds, mud pitches, leg-breaking tackles, ponderous football, etc, etc.

Sadly the hooligans bit is back. Big style. Largely cocaine-fuelled.

Speak to plod and they will say that the situation is back to the "bad old days".

A lot of goes under the radar, because it is focused away from the top leagues.

Fair enough but I don't see trains being trashed or running street battles outside grounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-VY2L-GHAU

I personally don't believe it is as bad as the 70s, but there is a surprising amount going on which really doesn't get much coverage. There is definitely plenty of footage of running street battles.

Here is Wrexham and Oldham fans have a nice afternoon out,

https://twitter.com/Jamie31426413/status/1576205069653250048

https://twitter.com/KJ00355197/status/1576454711250767873

Search on twitter for many things including "casual".

Here's a traditionally tasty fixture.

https://twitter.com/CasualChaps/status/1595536155793055793?cxt=HHwW4oCzhcTrvaQsAAAA

I fairly regularly go to lower league games, including away games, and *maybe* there is trouble if you look for it (and every fanbase has its band of morons who treat football as a fight club). But policing and supporter management is generally pretty good. The casuals usually have to enact their stupidity away from the ground and the main fan thoroughfares. I often go with one or other of my kids and never feel unsafe (in fact the idea that I'd feel unsafe doesn't even occur).

I wasn't around for football in the seventies or eighties, but the impression I get is that it was much worse then.

EDITED for the context that I am a bespectacled, nebbishy milquetoast.

Used to be my attitude until I was (almost) caught up in a Newport v Swansea brawl. Bad match, bad fan behaviour (coins thrown at officials/players) all a bit tense, but I wasn't prepared for the way it kicked off outside the ground. Luckily we were home team (Newport) and knew an alternative way out, but we'd have been in a spot of bother had we been the away support and clueless about where to go.

Fair enough - and Swansea has a firm with a bit of a reputation so I can imagine a few of the local hard nuts wanting a pop as well. It is rubbish though. I love football and genuinely believe that fan culture is one of our great intangible treasures, but its underside is nasty and, unfortunately, still how a lot of non-fans think of it.

The daft thing is that casuals are generally pretty crap fans.

Yep. Went to a number of Newport games when I lived nearby. Never saw any trouble apart from that.

Nigelb

Denmark's new government drops public holiday to boost defence budget
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63982819

kjh

Andy_JS said:

Just discovered there's another Westminster by-election today, in Stretford and Urmston. Didn't know the local MP Kate Green had resigned.

Becoming Manchester deputy mayor I believe.

ydoethur

Ghedebrav said:

On topic (straight away!) has the Dishy one learned nowt from his pre-predecessor's downfall?

Raab wants binning ASAP.

Looking at his cabinet it would be quicker to come up with a list of who *doesn't* need binning asap.

Anabobazina

Can I suggest a thread on how good Dominic Raab's numbers would be were he to become inexplicably vastly more popular in an imaginary scenario at some undefined point in the future?

That seems to be the tenor of below-the-line PB analysis these days.

StuartDickson

A subsamples thread. My favourite.

ydoethur

Selebian said:

Surprised Hunt's so negative. I mean, he's a bit of a Hunt, but broadly competent and that should count for something. He shouldn't be within spitting distance of Raab or Braverman.

I believe, although Foxy would be a more reliable source, that he is to doctors what Michael Gove is to teachers.

TheScreamingEagles

kjh said:

Andy_JS said:

Just discovered there's another Westminster by-election today, in Stretford and Urmston. Didn't know the local MP Kate Green had resigned.

Becoming Manchester deputy mayor I believe.

Stretford & Urmston was the constituency Katie Price contested in 2001.

The Popular Front candidate as I called her.

ydoethur

Gardenwalker said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sunak has given an interview to Katy Balls in the Spectator. He comes across as mid level Accenture consultant. Truly depressing.

I've been pretty disappointed with him overall. I thought he'd have grown into the role quicker

Shut up; that's not a short man joke

Why did he want to be PM?
He appears to have no real conviction except what he seems to have read off a PPT.

He thought he'd be better than any other option?

Depressingly, he was probably right as well.

HYUFD

ydoethur said:

Gardenwalker said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sunak has given an interview to Katy Balls in the Spectator. He comes across as mid level Accenture consultant. Truly depressing.

I've been pretty disappointed with him overall. I thought he'd have grown into the role quicker

Shut up; that's not a short man joke

Why did he want to be PM?
He appears to have no real conviction except what he seems to have read off a PPT.

He thought he'd be better than any other option?

Depressingly, he was probably right as well.

Sunak probably has the best CV we have had for any PM in decades. 1st from Oxford, serious private sector experience as an ex Goldman Sachs banker, partner in hedge funds, ex Chancellor of the Exchequer.

He may not be particularly ideological but world leaders also respect him, Macron and Biden give him much more respect than they did Boris and Truss or Macron did May

HYUFD

TheScreamingEagles said:

kjh said:

Andy_JS said:

Just discovered there's another Westminster by-election today, in Stretford and Urmston. Didn't know the local MP Kate Green had resigned.

Becoming Manchester deputy mayor I believe.

Stretford & Urmston was the constituency Katie Price contested in 2001.

The Popular Front candidate as I called her.

In 2019 the Tories got just 27% in Stretford and Labour got 60%, so some pressure on Starmer as hard for him to get much swing further from that

Nigelb

Ghedebrav said:

On topic (straight away!) has the Dishy one learned nowt from his pre-predecessor's downfall?

Raab wants binning ASAP.

If we're on topic, then only the first three words of the headline are really relevant.

StuartDickson

Mike is a big fan of leader ratings and Nicola Sturgeon is leader of the pack. But Keir Starmer is a lead weight round the neck of the “Scottish” (ahem) Labour Party:

ydoethur

TBF, I'm no fan of John Swinney, who is a Grade A dickhead and almost as useless as Nick Gibb.

But it's bit rich of the Tories or Labour to criticise him for leaking a budget. I mean, in the last 25 years the real surprise with every budget has been that there's anything left that the press hasn't been told in advance.*

We are long past the days when Attlee would fire Dalton for casually mentioning a minor detail of the budget to a journalist while on his way to the Commons.

*(And, because they are thick, they've always leaked the good news in advance so that the only stuff for the press to waffle on about is the bad stuff.)

Anabobazina

StuartDickson said:

A subsamples thread. My favourite.

Risky chat Stuart. The wilderness is a cold, dark place –– as you know all too well.

Ghedebrav

Gardenwalker said:

Andy_JS said:

Just discovered there's another Westminster by-election today, in Stretford and Urmston. Didn't know the local MP Kate Green had resigned.

Incredible. Haven’t even seen this mentioned on PB.

I recall it was a bit, but it's an extremely bland BE.

Leon

So we've gone from "it probably came from bat soup with pangolin croutons in the wet market" to.....


"COVID origins 'may have been tied' to China's bioweapons program: GOP report
House Republicans state that the virus 'spilled over' to the human population| Fox News"


https://www.foxnews.com/politics/covid-origins-may-have-been-tied-chinas-bioweapons-program-gop-report


I'm not saying I agree with any of this, I am merely noting how far the Overton Window of Covid Origins has moved, in these long 3 painful years

ydoethur

HYUFD said:

ydoethur said:

Gardenwalker said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sunak has given an interview to Katy Balls in the Spectator. He comes across as mid level Accenture consultant. Truly depressing.

I've been pretty disappointed with him overall. I thought he'd have grown into the role quicker

Shut up; that's not a short man joke

Why did he want to be PM?
He appears to have no real conviction except what he seems to have read off a PPT.

He thought he'd be better than any other option?

Depressingly, he was probably right as well.

Sunak probably has the best CV we have had for any PM in decades. 1st from Oxford, serious private sector experience as an ex Goldman Sachs banker, partner in hedge funds, ex Chancellor of the Exchequer.

He may not be particularly ideological but world leaders also respect him, Macron and Biden give him much more respect than they did Boris and Truss or Macron did May

And he's still rubbish.

Give me somebody with a third from Cumbria who worked in a failed coffee shop and is a shrewd judge of character any day of the week.

Gardenwalker

HYUFD said:

ydoethur said:

Gardenwalker said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sunak has given an interview to Katy Balls in the Spectator. He comes across as mid level Accenture consultant. Truly depressing.

I've been pretty disappointed with him overall. I thought he'd have grown into the role quicker

Shut up; that's not a short man joke

Why did he want to be PM?
He appears to have no real conviction except what he seems to have read off a PPT.

He thought he'd be better than any other option?

Depressingly, he was probably right as well.

Sunak probably has the best CV we have had for any PM in decades.

He may not be particularly ideological but world leaders also respect him, Macron and Biden give him much more respect than they did Boris and Truss or Macron did May

Personally I don’t see that (the respect from world leaders).

May was important during the first phase of Brexit, and while her international image was not necessarily positive, it was enough to get her an SNL “impression”.

Boris was Boris, not taken seriously I think but impossible to ignore. And one has to concede his importance on Ukraine.

Regarding Sunak, I think both Biden and Macron have other fish to fry; Britain’s importance to both has diminished quite noticeably. They perhaps also both suffer from UKPM fatigue.

HYUFD

StuartDickson said:

Mike is a big fan of leader ratings and Nicola Sturgeon is leader of the pack. But Keir Starmer is a lead weight round the neck of the “Scottish” (ahem) Labour Party:

Is he? 37% satisfied is still more than double the 18% Scottish Labour got in 2019 under Corbyn and also higher than Harvie's 36%

Nigelb

Gardenwalker said:

Andy_JS said:

Just discovered there's another Westminster by-election today, in Stretford and Urmston. Didn't know the local MP Kate Green had resigned.

Incredible. Haven’t even seen this mentioned on PB.

Labour had over 60% of the vote at the last election, and it's sub zero outside with only a few shopping days to Christmas.
Is there a polite agreement on all sides not to bother too much ?

Nigelb

Leon said:

So we've gone from "it probably came from bat soup with pangolin croutons in the wet market" to.....


"COVID origins 'may have been tied' to China's bioweapons program: GOP report
House Republicans state that the virus 'spilled over' to the human population| Fox News"


https://www.foxnews.com/politics/covid-origins-may-have-been-tied-chinas-bioweapons-program-gop-report


I'm not saying I agree with any of this, I am merely noting how far the Overton Window of Covid Origins has moved, in these long 3 painful years

Fox reporting on the opinions of House Republicans ?
I'm mildly surprised they're not positing an extra-terrestrial origin.

HYUFD

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

ydoethur said:

Gardenwalker said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sunak has given an interview to Katy Balls in the Spectator. He comes across as mid level Accenture consultant. Truly depressing.

I've been pretty disappointed with him overall. I thought he'd have grown into the role quicker

Shut up; that's not a short man joke

Why did he want to be PM?
He appears to have no real conviction except what he seems to have read off a PPT.

He thought he'd be better than any other option?

Depressingly, he was probably right as well.

Sunak probably has the best CV we have had for any PM in decades.

He may not be particularly ideological but world leaders also respect him, Macron and Biden give him much more respect than they did Boris and Truss or Macron did May

Personally I don’t see that (the respect from world leaders).

May was important during the first phase of Brexit, and while her international image was not necessarily positive, it was enough to get her an SNL “impression”.

Boris was Boris, not taken seriously I think but impossible to ignore. And one has to concede his importance on Ukraine.

Regarding Sunak, I think both Biden and Macron have other fish to fry; Britain’s importance to both has diminished quite noticeably. They perhaps also both suffer from UKPM fatigue.

To an extent but the UK is also the only other western nation in the G7, G20 and P5 at the UN besides them so they cannot ignore us either

Nigelb

ydoethur said:

TBF, I'm no fan of John Swinney, who is a Grade A dickhead and almost as useless as Nick Gibb...

Fighting talk.

ydoethur

Nigelb said:

Leon said:

So we've gone from "it probably came from bat soup with pangolin croutons in the wet market" to.....


"COVID origins 'may have been tied' to China's bioweapons program: GOP report
House Republicans state that the virus 'spilled over' to the human population| Fox News"


https://www.foxnews.com/politics/covid-origins-may-have-been-tied-chinas-bioweapons-program-gop-report


I'm not saying I agree with any of this, I am merely noting how far the Overton Window of Covid Origins has moved, in these long 3 painful years

Fox reporting on the opinions of House Republicans ?
I'm mildly surprised they're not positing an extra-terrestrial origin.

Well, that would explain a huge amount.

Oh sorry, did you mean for the virus not the House Republicans?

StuartDickson

Anabobazina said:

StuartDickson said:

A subsamples thread. My favourite.

Risky chat Stuart. The wilderness is a cold, dark place –– as you know all too well.

England is entering her cold, dark wilderness decades. Eventually, she will be welcomed back into polite European society.

ydoethur

StuartDickson said:

Anabobazina said:

StuartDickson said:

A subsamples thread. My favourite.

Risky chat Stuart. The wilderness is a cold, dark place –– as you know all too well.

England is entering her cold, dark wilderness decades. Eventually, she will be welcomed back into polite European society.

Powered by electricity that contrary to your earlier claims is not the most expensive in Europe...

Keystone

kinabalu said:

Selebian said:

FPT

Ghedebrav said:

TOPPING said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Benpointer said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

TOPPING said:

Benpointer said:

turbotubbs said:

SandyRentool said:

Driver said:

Sandpit said:

Driver said:

kinabalu said:

Driver said:

Northern_Al said:

kinabalu said:

Cookie said:

kinabalu said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Slackbladder said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Foxy said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

eristdoof said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

dixiedean said:

Second. Like I suspect France.

Dunno. I took 13/2 against France at the off but am considering how much to hedge on Argentina. France have looked vulnerable at the back in most matches they've played. Can the team beaten by Saudi Arabia beat the team who lost to Tunisia?

France played their reserves against Tunisia, while the Argies played their first team against the Saudis (though that scoreline was rather against the run of play).

The argies also struggled when the Netherlands went to a more direct route one approach, something the French do adeptly too.

It will be pretty close, but I fancy the French.

By rights it should be Argentina and Messi's. Argentina have not won it since 1986, France won it last time in 2018 and in 1998

Using this argument by rights England should have beaten France, because England have not won it since 1966, where as France won it last time and in 1998.

England won't win it until FIFA stop stiffing us with dodgy referees whenever we look like getting close.

Ahem, that equalising goal in 1966 normal time was definitely dodgy, but we won as a result...

True, but we had some clout back then so we got an even break, and better sometimes.

We've been at odds with FIFA for decades now and it shows. It's become very much more obvious now that we have a decent team. It took a great French side plus a crooked ref to beat us this time. We should be proud of our side.

The ref in the Argentina/Netherlands game raised a few Dutch eyebrows.

That said, and I'm not the first to say this, we do seem to have accepted this defeat philosophically.

We did what was expected of us. No more no less. One main issue with the England team is they don't often overperform which is what you need to win Trophies. We are very solid but don't often beat the other top teams

England are the only European team to have made the last 8 in the last three major international competitions, and they made the top 4 in two of them and the top 2 in one of them. I think that's a pretty good record and with a slightly different rub of the green the team would have lifted at least one trophy. If they can maintain that consistent quality then they will win eventually.

We're established as top tier now under Southgate. A real achievement. As for winning the WC or the Euros - but esp the WC - in the next decade or so I think we can be optimistic but it's still odds against. There's such fine margins at the business end of the knockout stages. You have to win 3 big pressurized matches in a row where in at least 2 of them the teams will be well matched. So you need to find a performance AND things have to fall for you. This latter aspect is underappreciated imo. There's a high element of randomness in play. And it doesn't all even out over the piece because WCs, like goals within a match, are rare events.

Yes, football is very unsatisfying in that regard. The opportunities to play other top 10 teams come round so rarely, and football is such a low scoring game dependent on how one or two moments turn out. England is at the stage now where they would expect to win against any of the teams outside the top 10, but wouldn't expect to beat other top 10 teams.
It's sort of an achievement that England have got to this level. And yet you can't help feeling given England's size and resources that this is the minimum level England should really be at. Getting to a quarter final of a major tournament is no better than par.

Test cricket is also hard to win, and can also turn on brief moments. But test cricket overcomes this shortcoming with the concept of the series. Imagine if test cricket involved not just ten countries, but all the countries - with matches against the top 10 only coming round once or twice every two years.

This is integral to the WC's appeal though - that it's only every 4 years and involves match-ups you rarely or never see in the meantime. It's why it feels so special. As to winning it, football is THE world game and there are so many countries aspiring to succeed. The breadth and depth is huge. In previous times not so much, meaning more chance of a country developing a team streets ahead of the rest and able to win the WC without relying too much on the randomness factor. One thinks of Brazil in 1970.

Not now. To win the WC in the modern era, with the game as this turbocharged globalized supersport that everybody wants a piece of, is the hardest thing in international team competition. It needs so many factors to come together. If we ever do manage it - or perhaps better put, if it ever happens to us - it'll be amazing. "Amazing" in both senses of the word. Here's hoping. I'm 62.

I take your point. But nevertheless, it doesn't seem unreasonable to compare England with our three major European rivals - France, Germany and Italy. In such a comparison, we are well behind all three since 1966.

"Since 1966" covers much more than the modern era. And those three are only our "major European rivals" because they have won the most, so it's a little bit of a circular argument.

Interesting to consider when the Modern Era starts. I'd say the 80s but that could be just talking my age. Maybe a bit later would be more accurate. Certainly 66 was another world. It's part of our national dna, which I buy into, they think it's all over, Hurst's hattrick, Russian linesman, "you've won it once now go out and win it again", Nobby's toothless jig, Mooro wiping his hands on his shorts before shaking the Queen's hand and being handed the Rimet - brings a lump it really does - but compared to now it was jumpers for goalposts, Winning then was easier than getting to the semis these days.

Certainly no later than 1990, I would say. Even that preceded the TV era and all its effects (not least the domination of the big few European leagues in hoovering up talent from all over the world). There's an argument that 1993 (CL won by Marseille) and 1995 (Ajax) were a different era too.

The real “Big Bang” moment in European football, was the founding of the Premier League in 1992, and the start of the massive influx of TV money seen since then.

Yes - especially with the European Cup becoming the Champions League at the same time.

The year club football died.

Not really. Still plenty of club football out there.

Club football in the 70s was pretty shite tbf... Hooligans, rampant racism, deathtrap grounds, mud pitches, leg-breaking tackles, ponderous football, etc, etc.

Sadly the hooligans bit is back. Big style. Largely cocaine-fuelled.

Speak to plod and they will say that the situation is back to the "bad old days".

A lot of goes under the radar, because it is focused away from the top leagues.

Fair enough but I don't see trains being trashed or running street battles outside grounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-VY2L-GHAU

I personally don't believe it is as bad as the 70s, but there is a surprising amount going on which really doesn't get much coverage. There is definitely plenty of footage of running street battles.

Here is Wrexham and Oldham fans have a nice afternoon out,

https://twitter.com/Jamie31426413/status/1576205069653250048

https://twitter.com/KJ00355197/status/1576454711250767873

Search on twitter for many things including "casual".

Here's a traditionally tasty fixture.

https://twitter.com/CasualChaps/status/1595536155793055793?cxt=HHwW4oCzhcTrvaQsAAAA

I fairly regularly go to lower league games, including away games, and *maybe* there is trouble if you look for it (and every fanbase has its band of morons who treat football as a fight club). But policing and supporter management is generally pretty good. The casuals usually have to enact their stupidity away from the ground and the main fan thoroughfares. I often go with one or other of my kids and never feel unsafe (in fact the idea that I'd feel unsafe doesn't even occur).

I wasn't around for football in the seventies or eighties, but the impression I get is that it was much worse then.

EDITED for the context that I am a bespectacled, nebbishy milquetoast.

Used to be my attitude until I was (almost) caught up in a Newport v Swansea brawl. Bad match, bad fan behaviour (coins thrown at officials/players) all a bit tense, but I wasn't prepared for the way it kicked off outside the ground. Luckily we were home team (Newport) and knew an alternative way out, but we'd have been in a spot of bother had we been the away support and clueless about where to go.

My dad - who isn't short of opinions, he ought to come on here - insists that football hooliganism started with the followers of Liverpool's Shankly team in the 60s. Tells tales of them wazzing all over the terraces whereas before that, people just used to shake their rattles.

I believe that football hooliganism has a long and inglorious history - potentially dating back to the 13th century and the inter-village football matches that periodically resulted in death and serious injury (hence it being banned during the Hundred Years War).

Definitely was a thing as far back as the 1890s -Leicester Uni has a department looking into this among other football related trivia.

And some teams were famous for having 'passionate' support in the 20s and 30s.

Although the emergence of enough young men with disposable income to attend away matches en masse in the 1960s probably did lead to more of it.

Ghedebrav

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

kjh said:

Andy_JS said:

Just discovered there's another Westminster by-election today, in Stretford and Urmston. Didn't know the local MP Kate Green had resigned.

Becoming Manchester deputy mayor I believe.

Stretford & Urmston was the constituency Katie Price contested in 2001.

The Popular Front candidate as I called her.

In 2019 the Tories got just 27% in Stretford and Labour got 60%, so some pressure on Starmer as hard for him to get much swing further from that

I think it can be quite easily talked down with time of year, weather, by-election so more candidates etc.

I wouldn't be that surprised if he gets a bit of swing regardless, mind.

Andy_JS

FPT

S.O.S. by Abba is one of the best pop songs ever made IMO. Difficult to believe it's from 1975. It doesn't sound that old at all.

HYUFD

Ghedebrav said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

kjh said:

Andy_JS said:

Just discovered there's another Westminster by-election today, in Stretford and Urmston. Didn't know the local MP Kate Green had resigned.

Becoming Manchester deputy mayor I believe.

Stretford & Urmston was the constituency Katie Price contested in 2001.

The Popular Front candidate as I called her.

In 2019 the Tories got just 27% in Stretford and Labour got 60%, so some pressure on Starmer as hard for him to get much swing further from that

I think it can be quite easily talked down with time of year, weather, by-election so more candidates etc.

I wouldn't be that surprised if he gets a bit of swing regardless, mind.

He might but if any seat is going to see some leftwing and student protest vote from Labour to Green it is Stretford and Urmston as a safe Labour seat anyway.

Dan Jerrome is the Green Party candidate hoping to win over disgruntled Corbynites

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Stretford_and_Urmston_by-election

ydoethur

Ghedebrav said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

kjh said:

Andy_JS said:

Just discovered there's another Westminster by-election today, in Stretford and Urmston. Didn't know the local MP Kate Green had resigned.

Becoming Manchester deputy mayor I believe.

Stretford & Urmston was the constituency Katie Price contested in 2001.

The Popular Front candidate as I called her.

In 2019 the Tories got just 27% in Stretford and Labour got 60%, so some pressure on Starmer as hard for him to get much swing further from that

I think it can be quite easily talked down with time of year, weather, by-election so more candidates etc.

I wouldn't be that surprised if he gets a bit of swing regardless, mind.

I suspect turnout will be so low that anything else will be just noise.

Is the record low for a Westminster by-election still 18%? If so, we might be about to set a new mark here. And bluntly, I wouldn't blame the voters.

kjh

Andy_JS said:

FPT

S.O.S. by Abba is one of the best pop songs ever made IMO. Difficult to believe it's from 1975. It doesn't sound that old at all.

Shudders by someone who is a fan of the blues.

Cream vs Abba - no contest.

DJ41

Nigelb said:

Denmark's new government drops public holiday to boost defence budget
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63982819

When I first read the guns before mince pies story from Denmark, I thought "Wow - listen to the pendulum swinging". (Cf. with Elon Musk, celebrated for years by w*nkers as such a great "manager"...and see what this has meant in practice at Sh*tter.) But having now learnt about the b*llsup in Denmark with the (now called-off) inquiry into the China-style mink cull, I reckon it could just be a case of "How can we meet the NATO target without increasing taxes? Well we could squash one of the national holidays".

Effects, though, are a different matter. This will be talked about in several countries. There will be more changes of this kind. The pendulum really is swinging. Next? Longer working hours? That's even before we look at shocks. And those there will be.

Perhaps if Raytheon drop their weapons prices and everyone in Denmark has worked hard, like good little boys and girls, the government might give the population half a day's holiday as a reward? What a f***ing way to run a railroad.

StuartDickson

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

Mike is a big fan of leader ratings and Nicola Sturgeon is leader of the pack. But Keir Starmer is a lead weight round the neck of the “Scottish” (ahem) Labour Party:

Is he? 37% satisfied is still more than double the 18% Scottish Labour got in 2019 under Corbyn and also higher than Harvie's 36%

Admittedly, he’s doing a heck of a lot better than Ed Miliband, who at -56 was even more unpopular than David Cameron (!) and Nick Clegg. That takes some doing in Scotland.

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/uk-party-leaders-suffer-ratings-blow

But -13 is dreadful for a Lab leader at this point in the cycle.

Another point of note is the huge D/K figures for Sarwar, Ross and Cole-Hamilton. Utterly astonishing. They are invisible.

DJ41

Gardenwalker said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sunak has given an interview to Katy Balls in the Spectator. He comes across as mid level Accenture consultant. Truly depressing.

I've been pretty disappointed with him overall. I thought he'd have grown into the role quicker

Shut up; that's not a short man joke

Why did he want to be PM?
He appears to have no real conviction except what he seems to have read off a PPT.

You can do some good stuff with the latest version of PPT. I was surprised at how cool it is. Few ever explore those features, though.

kjh

Leon said:

So we've gone from "it probably came from bat soup with pangolin croutons in the wet market" to.....


"COVID origins 'may have been tied' to China's bioweapons program: GOP report
House Republicans state that the virus 'spilled over' to the human population| Fox News"


https://www.foxnews.com/politics/covid-origins-may-have-been-tied-chinas-bioweapons-program-gop-report


I'm not saying I agree with any of this, I am merely noting how far the Overton Window of Covid Origins has moved, in these long 3 painful years

Can I remind you of your post on Sunday night which with a 5 second google search of Andrew Huff was shown to be utter bollocks.

Endillion

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

ydoethur said:

Gardenwalker said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sunak has given an interview to Katy Balls in the Spectator. He comes across as mid level Accenture consultant. Truly depressing.

I've been pretty disappointed with him overall. I thought he'd have grown into the role quicker

Shut up; that's not a short man joke

Why did he want to be PM?
He appears to have no real conviction except what he seems to have read off a PPT.

He thought he'd be better than any other option?

Depressingly, he was probably right as well.

Sunak probably has the best CV we have had for any PM in decades. 1st from Oxford, serious private sector experience as an ex Goldman Sachs banker, partner in hedge funds, ex Chancellor of the Exchequer.

He may not be particularly ideological but world leaders also respect him, Macron and Biden give him much more respect than they did Boris and Truss or Macron did May

And he's still rubbish.

Give me somebody with a third from Cumbria who worked in a failed coffee shop and is a shrewd judge of character any day of the week.

If they're such a shrewd judge of character, why'd they pick such a poor business owner as a boss?

Nigelb

Libertarians rejoice.
This was one of the more absurd laws in existence.

Will new California law make it legal for pedestrians to jaywalk? Here are the details
https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article266903931.html

ydoethur

Endillion said:

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

ydoethur said:

Gardenwalker said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sunak has given an interview to Katy Balls in the Spectator. He comes across as mid level Accenture consultant. Truly depressing.

I've been pretty disappointed with him overall. I thought he'd have grown into the role quicker

Shut up; that's not a short man joke

Why did he want to be PM?
He appears to have no real conviction except what he seems to have read off a PPT.

He thought he'd be better than any other option?

Depressingly, he was probably right as well.

Sunak probably has the best CV we have had for any PM in decades. 1st from Oxford, serious private sector experience as an ex Goldman Sachs banker, partner in hedge funds, ex Chancellor of the Exchequer.

He may not be particularly ideological but world leaders also respect him, Macron and Biden give him much more respect than they did Boris and Truss or Macron did May

And he's still rubbish.

Give me somebody with a third from Cumbria who worked in a failed coffee shop and is a shrewd judge of character any day of the week.

If they're such a shrewd judge of character, why'd they pick such a poor business owner as a boss?

Good question. Maybe they needed the money? Not so many jobs open to those with thirds from Cumbria as to those with the right connections firsts from Oxford.

Edit - of course, I didn't say how long they worked for it, or when they left, or when it failed. I could plug it into Chat and see what comes up as a story...

HYUFD

StuartDickson said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

Mike is a big fan of leader ratings and Nicola Sturgeon is leader of the pack. But Keir Starmer is a lead weight round the neck of the “Scottish” (ahem) Labour Party:

Is he? 37% satisfied is still more than double the 18% Scottish Labour got in 2019 under Corbyn and also higher than Harvie's 36%

Admittedly, he’s doing a heck of a lot better than Ed Miliband, who at -56 was even more unpopular than David Cameron (!) and Nick Clegg. That takes some doing in Scotland.

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/uk-party-leaders-suffer-ratings-blow

But -13 is dreadful for a Lab leader at this point in the cycle.

Another point of note is the huge D/K figures for Sarwar, Ross and Cole-Hamilton. Utterly astonishing. They are invisible.

Is it? 37% if translated into Labour votes would be easily the highest Scottish Labour percentage in Scotland since Brown's in 2010

ydoethur

Nigelb said:

Libertarians rejoice.
This was one of the more absurd laws in existence.

Will new California law make it legal for pedestrians to jaywalk? Here are the details
https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article266903931.html

Jay walking should be rigorously prosecuted. Three shrikes and you're out.

turbotubbs

Gardenwalker said:

Sunak has given an interview to Katy Balls in the Spectator. He comes across as mid level Accenture consultant. Truly depressing.

Is that not at least an improvement on (a) complete mendacious buffoon acting liar and (b) hopeless incompetent work experience girl?

Andy_JS

Big article in today's Telegraph about ChatGPT.

ydoethur

turbotubbs said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sunak has given an interview to Katy Balls in the Spectator. He comes across as mid level Accenture consultant. Truly depressing.

Is that not at least an improvement on (a) complete mendacious buffoon acting liar and (b) hopeless incompetent work experience girl?

That second one is seriously harsh.

No work experience placement has ever ended as badly as Truss' premiership.

MaxPB

At every step of combating high inflation the BoE and the MPC have been a hindrance to the nation. Once again, today with the two mentalists suggesting no rate rise sterling has gone into free fall and import costs will start rising again after a few weeks of stabilising and falling. The BoE is prolonging this inflationary crisis, the governor is useless and needs to be replaced with someone who is up to the job of telling the government to fix the economy so rising rates don't cause a recession.

turbotubbs

StuartDickson said:

Anabobazina said:

StuartDickson said:

A subsamples thread. My favourite.

Risky chat Stuart. The wilderness is a cold, dark place –– as you know all too well.

England is entering her cold, dark wilderness decades. Eventually, she will be welcomed back into polite European society.

Do you have an opinion on Wales, NI, or are just a bigot about England and the English?

Did you ever retract your outrageous slur on Teresa May? Of course not.

ydoethur

MaxPB said:

At every step of combating high inflation the BoE and the MPC have been a hindrance to the nation. Once again, today with the two mentalists suggesting no rate rise sterling has gone into free fall and import costs will start rising again after a few weeks of stabilising and falling. The BoE is prolonging this inflationary crisis, the governor is useless and needs to be replaced with someone who is up to the job of telling the government to fix the economy so rising rates don't cause a recession.

By the way, have you started writing for the RAC?

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/fuel-news/asda-finally-starts-to-cut-the-price-of-fuel/

Gardenwalker

turbotubbs said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sunak has given an interview to Katy Balls in the Spectator. He comes across as mid level Accenture consultant. Truly depressing.

Is that not at least an improvement on (a) complete mendacious buffoon acting liar and (b) hopeless incompetent work experience girl?

Yes, but it’s still depressing.
Sunak is a total non-entity.

HYUFD

StuartDickson said:

Anabobazina said:

StuartDickson said:

A subsamples thread. My favourite.

Risky chat Stuart. The wilderness is a cold, dark place –– as you know all too well.

England is entering her cold, dark wilderness decades. Eventually, she will be welcomed back into polite European society.

Switzerland seems to do fine outside the EU, plenty of polite European society go there and invest there

DougSeal

StuartDickson said:

England is entering her cold, dark wilderness decades. Eventually, she will be welcomed back into polite European society.

You really are a nasty racist troll aren’t you? You don’t even have the redeeming features of intelligence or a sense of humour. Just a vengeful little tour guide from Gothenburg with nothing better to do than spew xenophobic venom.

HYUFD

Gardenwalker said:

turbotubbs said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sunak has given an interview to Katy Balls in the Spectator. He comes across as mid level Accenture consultant. Truly depressing.

Is that not at least an improvement on (a) complete mendacious buffoon acting liar and (b) hopeless incompetent work experience girl?

Yes, but it’s still depressing.
Sunak is a total non-entity.

Sunak is probably our most entity PM since Blair. Even if he is no Thatcher or Churchill either

Stocky

Nigelb said:

Libertarians rejoice.
This was one of the more absurd laws in existence.

Will new California law make it legal for pedestrians to jaywalk? Here are the details
https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article266903931.html

Seems sensible to me. Would be even better if the law was removed.

Gardenwalker

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

Anabobazina said:

StuartDickson said:

A subsamples thread. My favourite.

Risky chat Stuart. The wilderness is a cold, dark place –– as you know all too well.

England is entering her cold, dark wilderness decades. Eventually, she will be welcomed back into polite European society.

Switzerland seems to do fine outside the EU, plenty of polite European society go there and invest there

Has access to the single market.
Come on, you’ve had 6 years to get up to speed at least.

DecrepiterJohnL

ydoethur said:

Ghedebrav said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

kjh said:

Andy_JS said:

Just discovered there's another Westminster by-election today, in Stretford and Urmston. Didn't know the local MP Kate Green had resigned.

Becoming Manchester deputy mayor I believe.

Stretford & Urmston was the constituency Katie Price contested in 2001.

The Popular Front candidate as I called her.

In 2019 the Tories got just 27% in Stretford and Labour got 60%, so some pressure on Starmer as hard for him to get much swing further from that

I think it can be quite easily talked down with time of year, weather, by-election so more candidates etc.

I wouldn't be that surprised if he gets a bit of swing regardless, mind.

I suspect turnout will be so low that anything else will be just noise.

Is the record low for a Westminster by-election still 18%? If so, we might be about to set a new mark here. And bluntly, I wouldn't blame the voters.

Perhaps a test of Boris's theory that bad weather favours the blue team.

HYUFD

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

Anabobazina said:

StuartDickson said:

A subsamples thread. My favourite.

Risky chat Stuart. The wilderness is a cold, dark place –– as you know all too well.

England is entering her cold, dark wilderness decades. Eventually, she will be welcomed back into polite European society.

Switzerland seems to do fine outside the EU, plenty of polite European society go there and invest there

Has access to the single market.
Come on, you’ve had 6 years to get up to speed at least.

It is not in the single market though

ydoethur

DecrepiterJohnL said:

ydoethur said:

Ghedebrav said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

kjh said:

Andy_JS said:

Just discovered there's another Westminster by-election today, in Stretford and Urmston. Didn't know the local MP Kate Green had resigned.

Becoming Manchester deputy mayor I believe.

Stretford & Urmston was the constituency Katie Price contested in 2001.

The Popular Front candidate as I called her.

In 2019 the Tories got just 27% in Stretford and Labour got 60%, so some pressure on Starmer as hard for him to get much swing further from that

I think it can be quite easily talked down with time of year, weather, by-election so more candidates etc.

I wouldn't be that surprised if he gets a bit of swing regardless, mind.

I suspect turnout will be so low that anything else will be just noise.

Is the record low for a Westminster by-election still 18%? If so, we might be about to set a new mark here. And bluntly, I wouldn't blame the voters.

Perhaps a test of Boris's theory that bad weather favours the blue team.

You mean, they might save their deposit?

DJ41

Leon said:

So we've gone from "it probably came from bat soup with pangolin croutons in the wet market" to.....

"COVID origins 'may have been tied' to China's bioweapons program: GOP report
House Republicans state that the virus 'spilled over' to the human population| Fox News"

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/covid-origins-may-have-been-tied-chinas-bioweapons-program-gop-report

I'm not saying I agree with any of this, I am merely noting how far the Overton Window of Covid Origins has moved, in these long 3 painful years

The "lab leak hypothesis" reminds me of

* people saying, when child X has disappeared off the face of the earth from location Y, that what probably happened was that child X died accidentally and the parents removed the body...with not even a reference to the possibility that the death may have resulted from foul play by the parents and others (even though the accident or foul play question should surely be the first question a reasonable person should consider, if they're looking at the "body removed by parents" hypothesis)

... or ...

* a Wikicop explaining, when they've stopped an obvious p*ss-taker from saying something on Wikipedia, that "your good faith edit was inappropriate because ..."

@Leon - if the SARS variant SARSCoV2 came out of a lab, how would you assess the conditional probability that it "leaked" rather than being taken out deliberately? OK there's a grey area, or overlap, as per usual, but I mean just at this first order of consideration, assuming simplistically for heuristic reasons that it's either-or?

BW doesn't start openly. The rest of CBRN may, but not BW.

Gardenwalker

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

Anabobazina said:

StuartDickson said:

A subsamples thread. My favourite.

Risky chat Stuart. The wilderness is a cold, dark place –– as you know all too well.

England is entering her cold, dark wilderness decades. Eventually, she will be welcomed back into polite European society.

Switzerland seems to do fine outside the EU, plenty of polite European society go there and invest there

Has access to the single market.
Come on, you’ve had 6 years to get up to speed at least.

It is not in the single market though

“Switzerland is not an EU or EEA member but is part of the single market.”

https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea

Leon

kjh said:

Leon said:

So we've gone from "it probably came from bat soup with pangolin croutons in the wet market" to.....


"COVID origins 'may have been tied' to China's bioweapons program: GOP report
House Republicans state that the virus 'spilled over' to the human population| Fox News"


https://www.foxnews.com/politics/covid-origins-may-have-been-tied-chinas-bioweapons-program-gop-report


I'm not saying I agree with any of this, I am merely noting how far the Overton Window of Covid Origins has moved, in these long 3 painful years

Can I remind you of your post on Sunday night which with a 5 second google search of Andrew Huff was shown to be utter bollocks.

I said Andrew Huff was once a "co-chief of Ecohealth" (the guys that probably leaked the engineered virus at Wuhan). Everyone had conniptions, including you. Not sure why. Reality? -

"Dr Andrew Huff, the former vice president of EcoHealth"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11498155/Whistleblower-worked-funded-Wuhan-lab-claims-Covid-genetically-engineered-leaked.html

turbotubbs

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

Anabobazina said:

StuartDickson said:

A subsamples thread. My favourite.

Risky chat Stuart. The wilderness is a cold, dark place –– as you know all too well.

England is entering her cold, dark wilderness decades. Eventually, she will be welcomed back into polite European society.

Switzerland seems to do fine outside the EU, plenty of polite European society go there and invest there

Has access to the single market.
Come on, you’ve had 6 years to get up to speed at least.

It is not in the single market though

“Switzerland is not an EU or EEA member but is part of the single market.”

https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea

Crikey - could we not do that? Wouldn't that be cherry picking the bits we want?

Gardenwalker

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

turbotubbs said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sunak has given an interview to Katy Balls in the Spectator. He comes across as mid level Accenture consultant. Truly depressing.

Is that not at least an improvement on (a) complete mendacious buffoon acting liar and (b) hopeless incompetent work experience girl?

Yes, but it’s still depressing.
Sunak is a total non-entity.

Sunak is probably our most entity PM since Blair. Even if he is no Thatcher or Churchill either

It’s still early days, but on the evidence so far he is sub-Major and possibly sub-Callaghan, both of whom had long records of public service careers before becoming PM.

williamglenn

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

Anabobazina said:

StuartDickson said:

A subsamples thread. My favourite.

Risky chat Stuart. The wilderness is a cold, dark place –– as you know all too well.

England is entering her cold, dark wilderness decades. Eventually, she will be welcomed back into polite European society.

Switzerland seems to do fine outside the EU, plenty of polite European society go there and invest there

Has access to the single market.
Come on, you’ve had 6 years to get up to speed at least.

It is not in the single market though

“Switzerland is not an EU or EEA member but is part of the single market.”

https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea

That's debatable. You can find official EU sources that say otherwise.

Leon

turbotubbs said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

Anabobazina said:

StuartDickson said:

A subsamples thread. My favourite.

Risky chat Stuart. The wilderness is a cold, dark place –– as you know all too well.

England is entering her cold, dark wilderness decades. Eventually, she will be welcomed back into polite European society.

Switzerland seems to do fine outside the EU, plenty of polite European society go there and invest there

Has access to the single market.
Come on, you’ve had 6 years to get up to speed at least.

It is not in the single market though

“Switzerland is not an EU or EEA member but is part of the single market.”

https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea

Crikey - could we not do that? Wouldn't that be cherry picking the bits we want?

The EU has said it will not give a Swiss-style deal to anyone else, as Switzerland has it too easy

ydoethur

turbotubbs said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

Anabobazina said:

StuartDickson said:

A subsamples thread. My favourite.

Risky chat Stuart. The wilderness is a cold, dark place –– as you know all too well.

England is entering her cold, dark wilderness decades. Eventually, she will be welcomed back into polite European society.

Switzerland seems to do fine outside the EU, plenty of polite European society go there and invest there

Has access to the single market.
Come on, you’ve had 6 years to get up to speed at least.

It is not in the single market though

“Switzerland is not an EU or EEA member but is part of the single market.”

https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea

Crikey - could we not do that? Wouldn't that be cherry picking the bits we want?

They have to pay for it. Probably more than we would be willing to.

They also don't care very much about most sectors of EU regulation.

HYUFD

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

Anabobazina said:

StuartDickson said:

A subsamples thread. My favourite.

Risky chat Stuart. The wilderness is a cold, dark place –– as you know all too well.

England is entering her cold, dark wilderness decades. Eventually, she will be welcomed back into polite European society.

Switzerland seems to do fine outside the EU, plenty of polite European society go there and invest there

Has access to the single market.
Come on, you’ve had 6 years to get up to speed at least.

It is not in the single market though

“Switzerland is not an EU or EEA member but is part of the single market.”

https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea

It has bilateral agreements with the EU enabling it to participate in and partly integrate into the single market but it is not a full member of the single/internal market and EEA

https://trade.ec.europa.eu/access-to-markets/en/content/switzerland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

ydoethur

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

Anabobazina said:

StuartDickson said:

A subsamples thread. My favourite.

Risky chat Stuart. The wilderness is a cold, dark place –– as you know all too well.

England is entering her cold, dark wilderness decades. Eventually, she will be welcomed back into polite European society.

Switzerland seems to do fine outside the EU, plenty of polite European society go there and invest there

Has access to the single market.
Come on, you’ve had 6 years to get up to speed at least.

It is not in the single market though

“Switzerland is not an EU or EEA member but is part of the single market.”

https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea

Crikey - could we not do that? Wouldn't that be cherry picking the bits we want?

The EU has said it will not give a Swiss-style deal to anyone else, as Switzerland has it too easy

they don't actually have a deal with Switzerland. They have around 120 of them, negotiated painfully slowly over many years.

They tried to replace it with one treaty but they couldn't agree terms.

SandyRentool

Andy_JS said:

Big article in today's Telegraph about ChatGPT.

Written by ChatGPT?

HYUFD

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

turbotubbs said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sunak has given an interview to Katy Balls in the Spectator. He comes across as mid level Accenture consultant. Truly depressing.

Is that not at least an improvement on (a) complete mendacious buffoon acting liar and (b) hopeless incompetent work experience girl?

Yes, but it’s still depressing.
Sunak is a total non-entity.

Sunak is probably our most entity PM since Blair. Even if he is no Thatcher or Churchill either

It’s still early days, but on the evidence so far he is sub-Major and possibly sub-Callaghan, both of whom had long records of public service careers before becoming PM.

He is more competent and sharper than Major and Callaghan were and more charismatic

Gardenwalker

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

Anabobazina said:

StuartDickson said:

A subsamples thread. My favourite.

Risky chat Stuart. The wilderness is a cold, dark place –– as you know all too well.

England is entering her cold, dark wilderness decades. Eventually, she will be welcomed back into polite European society.

Switzerland seems to do fine outside the EU, plenty of polite European society go there and invest there

Has access to the single market.
Come on, you’ve had 6 years to get up to speed at least.

It is not in the single market though

“Switzerland is not an EU or EEA member but is part of the single market.”

https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea

It has bilateral agreements with the EU enabling it to participate in and partly integrate into the single market but it is not a full member of the single/internal market and EEA

https://trade.ec.europa.eu/access-to-markets/en/content/switzerland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

So, unlike the UK then.

HYUFD

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

Anabobazina said:

StuartDickson said:

A subsamples thread. My favourite.

Risky chat Stuart. The wilderness is a cold, dark place –– as you know all too well.

England is entering her cold, dark wilderness decades. Eventually, she will be welcomed back into polite European society.

Switzerland seems to do fine outside the EU, plenty of polite European society go there and invest there

Has access to the single market.
Come on, you’ve had 6 years to get up to speed at least.

It is not in the single market though

“Switzerland is not an EU or EEA member but is part of the single market.”

https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea

It has bilateral agreements with the EU enabling it to participate in and partly integrate into the single market but it is not a full member of the single/internal market and EEA

https://trade.ec.europa.eu/access-to-markets/en/content/switzerland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

So, unlike the UK then.

We also have a trade deal with the EU allowing some access to the single market even if we are not currently as regulatory aligned as Switzerland is. Neither us nor Switzerland are full members of the EEA and single market however

Gardenwalker

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

Anabobazina said:

StuartDickson said:

A subsamples thread. My favourite.

Risky chat Stuart. The wilderness is a cold, dark place –– as you know all too well.

England is entering her cold, dark wilderness decades. Eventually, she will be welcomed back into polite European society.

Switzerland seems to do fine outside the EU, plenty of polite European society go there and invest there

Has access to the single market.
Come on, you’ve had 6 years to get up to speed at least.

It is not in the single market though

“Switzerland is not an EU or EEA member but is part of the single market.”

https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea

Crikey - could we not do that? Wouldn't that be cherry picking the bits we want?

The EU has said it will not give a Swiss-style deal to anyone else, as Switzerland has it too easy

May’s deal came closest.

HYUFD

Gardenwalker said:

Leon said:

turbotubbs said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

Anabobazina said:

StuartDickson said:

A subsamples thread. My favourite.

Risky chat Stuart. The wilderness is a cold, dark place –– as you know all too well.

England is entering her cold, dark wilderness decades. Eventually, she will be welcomed back into polite European society.

Switzerland seems to do fine outside the EU, plenty of polite European society go there and invest there

Has access to the single market.
Come on, you’ve had 6 years to get up to speed at least.

It is not in the single market though

“Switzerland is not an EU or EEA member but is part of the single market.”

https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea

Crikey - could we not do that? Wouldn't that be cherry picking the bits we want?

The EU has said it will not give a Swiss-style deal to anyone else, as Switzerland has it too easy

May’s deal came closest.

Starmer I expect would end up doing a May deal 2 with the EU as PM, so Theresa may yet have the last laugh on our Brexit settlement

Gardenwalker

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

turbotubbs said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sunak has given an interview to Katy Balls in the Spectator. He comes across as mid level Accenture consultant. Truly depressing.

Is that not at least an improvement on (a) complete mendacious buffoon acting liar and (b) hopeless incompetent work experience girl?

Yes, but it’s still depressing.
Sunak is a total non-entity.

Sunak is probably our most entity PM since Blair. Even if he is no Thatcher or Churchill either

It’s still early days, but on the evidence so far he is sub-Major and possibly sub-Callaghan, both of whom had long records of public service careers before becoming PM.

He is more competent and sharper than Major and Callaghan were and more charismatic

There’s no evidence for either assertion.
At best we can say it is too early to tell.

Carnyx

StuartDickson said:

Mike is a big fan of leader ratings and Nicola Sturgeon is leader of the pack. But Keir Starmer is a lead weight round the neck of the “Scottish” (ahem) Labour Party:

Rathjer confusing presentation - polarity flipped between the two. I had to look three times to confirm the up/down polarity being used.

Mexicanpete

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

ydoethur said:

Gardenwalker said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sunak has given an interview to Katy Balls in the Spectator. He comes across as mid level Accenture consultant. Truly depressing.

I've been pretty disappointed with him overall. I thought he'd have grown into the role quicker

Shut up; that's not a short man joke

Why did he want to be PM?
He appears to have no real conviction except what he seems to have read off a PPT.

He thought he'd be better than any other option?

Depressingly, he was probably right as well.

Sunak probably has the best CV we have had for any PM in decades. 1st from Oxford, serious private sector experience as an ex Goldman Sachs banker, partner in hedge funds, ex Chancellor of the Exchequer.

He may not be particularly ideological but world leaders also respect him, Macron and Biden give him much more respect than they did Boris and Truss or Macron did May

And he's still rubbish.

Give me somebody with a third from Cumbria who worked in a failed coffee shop and is a shrewd judge of character any day of the week.

I am sort of with HY here. Sunak's 144D chess game demonstrates his skillful political genius, confirmed with the polls now within catching distance for the Tories. Successfully painting the nurses, who along with Boris Johnson we applauded every Thurday just two years ago, as the spawn of Beelzebub is quite remarkable,.and pinning the economic migrant crisis as the work of the foreigner loving- English hating Labour Party is impressive.

I wouldn't vote for the lying little scrote, but plenty will.

Gardenwalker

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

Anabobazina said:

StuartDickson said:

A subsamples thread. My favourite.

Risky chat Stuart. The wilderness is a cold, dark place –– as you know all too well.

England is entering her cold, dark wilderness decades. Eventually, she will be welcomed back into polite European society.

Switzerland seems to do fine outside the EU, plenty of polite European society go there and invest there

Has access to the single market.
Come on, you’ve had 6 years to get up to speed at least.

It is not in the single market though

“Switzerland is not an EU or EEA member but is part of the single market.”

https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea

It has bilateral agreements with the EU enabling it to participate in and partly integrate into the single market but it is not a full member of the single/internal market and EEA

https://trade.ec.europa.eu/access-to-markets/en/content/switzerland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

So, unlike the UK then.

We also have a trade deal with the EU allowing some access to the single market even if we are not currently as regulatory aligned as Switzerland is. Neither us nor Switzerland are full members of the EEA and single market however

No, not true.
You’re trying to imply that Britain and Switzerland are analogous.

It’s a kind of deceit, the sort which has brought Britain to its current pass.

Driver

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

Anabobazina said:

StuartDickson said:

A subsamples thread. My favourite.

Risky chat Stuart. The wilderness is a cold, dark place –– as you know all too well.

England is entering her cold, dark wilderness decades. Eventually, she will be welcomed back into polite European society.

Switzerland seems to do fine outside the EU, plenty of polite European society go there and invest there

Has access to the single market.
Come on, you’ve had 6 years to get up to speed at least.

It is not in the single market though

“Switzerland is not an EU or EEA member but is part of the single market.”

https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea

It has bilateral agreements with the EU enabling it to participate in and partly integrate into the single market but it is not a full member of the single/internal market and EEA

https://trade.ec.europa.eu/access-to-markets/en/content/switzerland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

So, unlike the UK then.

We also have a trade deal with the EU allowing some access to the single market even if we are not currently as regulatory aligned as Switzerland is. Neither us nor Switzerland are full members of the EEA and single market however

No, not true.
You’re trying to imply that Britain and Switzerland are analogous.

It’s a kind of deceit, the sort which has brought Britain to its current pass.

Only in the sense that neither is in the EU, which is true.

Gardenwalker

Mexicanpete said:

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

ydoethur said:

Gardenwalker said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sunak has given an interview to Katy Balls in the Spectator. He comes across as mid level Accenture consultant. Truly depressing.

I've been pretty disappointed with him overall. I thought he'd have grown into the role quicker

Shut up; that's not a short man joke

Why did he want to be PM?
He appears to have no real conviction except what he seems to have read off a PPT.

He thought he'd be better than any other option?

Depressingly, he was probably right as well.

Sunak probably has the best CV we have had for any PM in decades. 1st from Oxford, serious private sector experience as an ex Goldman Sachs banker, partner in hedge funds, ex Chancellor of the Exchequer.

He may not be particularly ideological but world leaders also respect him, Macron and Biden give him much more respect than they did Boris and Truss or Macron did May

And he's still rubbish.

Give me somebody with a third from Cumbria who worked in a failed coffee shop and is a shrewd judge of character any day of the week.

I am sort of with HY here. Sunak's 144D chess game demonstrates his skillful political genius, confirmed with the polls now within catching distance for the Tories. Successfully painting the nurses, who along with Boris Johnson we applauded every Thurday just two years ago, as the spawn of Beelzebub is quite remarkable,.and pinning the economic migrant crisis as the work of the foreigner loving- English hating Labour Party is impressive.

I wouldn't vote for the lying little scrote, but plenty will.

Eh? This reads like fan fiction.

Gardenwalker

Driver said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

Anabobazina said:

StuartDickson said:

A subsamples thread. My favourite.

Risky chat Stuart. The wilderness is a cold, dark place –– as you know all too well.

England is entering her cold, dark wilderness decades. Eventually, she will be welcomed back into polite European society.

Switzerland seems to do fine outside the EU, plenty of polite European society go there and invest there

Has access to the single market.
Come on, you’ve had 6 years to get up to speed at least.

It is not in the single market though

“Switzerland is not an EU or EEA member but is part of the single market.”

https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea

It has bilateral agreements with the EU enabling it to participate in and partly integrate into the single market but it is not a full member of the single/internal market and EEA

https://trade.ec.europa.eu/access-to-markets/en/content/switzerland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

So, unlike the UK then.

We also have a trade deal with the EU allowing some access to the single market even if we are not currently as regulatory aligned as Switzerland is. Neither us nor Switzerland are full members of the EEA and single market however

No, not true.
You’re trying to imply that Britain and Switzerland are analogous.

It’s a kind of deceit, the sort which has brought Britain to its current pass.

Only in the sense that neither is in the EU, which is true.

But that was not the original counter-assertion.

DJ41

Gardenwalker said:

HYUFD said:

Gardenwalker said:

turbotubbs said:

Gardenwalker said:

Sunak has given an interview to Katy Balls in the Spectator. He comes across as mid level Accenture consultant. Truly depressing.

Is that not at least an improvement on (a) complete mendacious buffoon acting liar and (b) hopeless incompetent work experience girl?

Yes, but it’s still depressing.
Sunak is a total non-entity.

Sunak is probably our most entity PM since Blair. Even if he is no Thatcher or Churchill either

It’s still early days, but on the evidence so far he is sub-Major and possibly sub-Callaghan, both of whom had long records of public service careers before becoming PM.

"Non-entity", "comes across as mid level Accenture consultant"... Sounds as though you are biased towards associating good prime-ministerial skills with extraversion and being "alpha". But Johnson was an absolute sh*tclown. TMay was a waste of space, Cameron may have tried but didn't have much of a clue either, and Truss should never have been allowed near the job. Sunak is probably halfway between TMay and Cameron in level of competence. That isn't saying much, but he's ahead of loud-voice alpha boy pants-on-fire Johnson for sure.

kinabalu

Leon said:

So we've gone from "it probably came from bat soup with pangolin croutons in the wet market" to.....

"COVID origins 'may have been tied' to China's bioweapons program: GOP report
House Republicans state that the virus 'spilled over' to the human population| Fox News"

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/covid-origins-may-have-been-tied-chinas-bioweapons-program-gop-report

I'm not saying I agree with any of this, I am merely noting how far the Overton Window of Covid Origins has moved, in these long 3 painful years

I'd quibble at saying "we've gone from natural origins to an engineered Chinese bioweapon".

I'd say we've gone from almost certainly natural origins to probably natural origins but one can't rule out some involvement of the laboratory in Wuhan which was studying similar viruses.

Course it depends who the "we" is. Some people started off with Chinese bioweapon and haven't moved since.