In normal circumstances I'd agree with Mike that the Don't Knows will largely return home. However, the economic fundamentals are so catastrophic that I think it's more likely that things will get worse for the Tories. There's a bit of a Sunak bounce at the moment, but for how long?
If I may be so bold as to disagree with two of our leading PBers, where is "home" for those who are supposedly due to return there? The basic supposition of young HY and others that everybody who voted Tory in 2019 is a die-hard Tory, and that "home" for them is the Conservative Party.
In normal circumstances I'd agree with Mike that the Don't Knows will largely return home. However, the economic fundamentals are so catastrophic that I think it's more likely that things will get worse for the Tories. There's a bit of a Sunak bounce at the moment, but for how long?
Nailed it.
I too think it likely that things are going to get even worse for the tories.
I suppose, looked at positively, it does make a difference from those old 'When will we next see a Conservative Lead' threads. The ones which used to get posted up every month.
Eventually the penny will drop. The tories are in for a trouncing.
By the way, another massive problem for the tories is that next time I don't think Nigel Farage is going to sit on his hands.
He has little respect for Sunak. Certainly doesn't admire him in the way he did Boris. He knows Labour are likely to win anyway and his best option for protecting his Brexit may be to try to win for the right.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
Is Tory’s defection to Reform UK the beginning of a trickle – or a flood? As discontent among the Conservative grassroots grows, the party faces the prospect of supporters voting with their feet
"Rishi Sunak’s strategy to project competence since replacing Liz Truss as Prime Minister seven weeks ago has been to keep a low profile and get on with the job.
But politics, like nature, abhors a vacuum, and the lack of visibility from the new leader – coupled with a sense of drift over public sector strikes and immigration – means Tory supporters are starting to vote with their feet.
On Thursday, The Telegraph revealed that Cllr David White has resigned from his role as the Conservative Party’s South Yorkshire area chairman and will be standing for Reform UK in Barnsley at the next election.
He said: “The Conservative Party has changed, with them being unable or unwilling to make the big decisions. I am convinced that they are not in tune with the working people here in Barnsley and across the UK.”
I suppose, looked at positively, it does make a difference from those old 'When will we next see a Conservative Lead' threads. The ones which used to get posted up every month.
Eventually the penny will drop. The tories are in for a trouncing.
The latest Deltapoll yesterday has the Tories on 32%, the same as they got in 2005 and 2% more than they got in 1997 and 3% more than Labour got in 2010 which was a hung parliament
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
I suppose, looked at positively, it does make a difference from those old 'When will we next see a Conservative Lead' threads. The ones which used to get posted up every month.
Eventually the penny will drop. The tories are in for a trouncing.
The latest Deltapoll yesterday has the Tories on 32%, the same as they got in 2005 and 2% more than they got in 1997 and 3% more than Labour got in 2010 which was a hung parliament
By the way, another massive problem for the tories is that next time I don't think Nigel Farage is going to sit on his hands.
He has little respect for Sunak. Certainly doesn't admire him in the way he did Boris. He knows Labour are likely to win anyway and his best option for protecting his Brexit may be to try to win for the right.
Everyone I talk to curls their lip at the mere mention or sighs. Little sign of support where I am.
Well they would say that mid term, they nearly always do, especially with Boris and Truss fresh in their heads.
But you are confidently stating about something two years hence, after 2 years of stable Sunak government delivering the voters priorities fresh in the mind - which is why your statement is vague unscientific daftness, isn’t it?
Yeah but, you've been implying the polling evidence is on your side. It isn't yet.
You may turn out to be the sagest of sages but if you do, it will all be down to guesswork.
I’m not predicting anything, not sage anything. I’m just reporting what is already going on in front of us. The media and voter love in with Sunak and his government has been going on for weeks right in front of you, my little Mex Pet. Open your eyes. Starmer and the Labour Party can’t lay a glove on them at the moment. And unlike Boris and Truss, the Sunak government does all the right things on all the right issues - look at todays announcement, sending MPs home for Christmas with deals agreed and five point plans now in place.
Sure don’t listen to me. But this is front page of tomorrows FT. SUNAK TOUGH ON MIGRANTS.
If only being tough on migrants made everything better. It might shock 70 year old home owners in the shires and working class right on lads on the coasts, but turns out it doesn't.
It’s just sensible good politics to get this done on the eve of Christmas holidays, MPs heading to constituency’s. The difference between Sunak’s government digging the party out a hole, his PM predecessors, and like Starmer too, were poor at reading all the documents and being on top all the detail, so not delivering.
Boris was dumped because he was never going to deliver on his promises of 2019. But they don’t count now, they are out the game - the next election is fought solely upon Sunak and Hunt’s record over the next two years, on migrant invasion, cost of living, and hospital waiting lists, and wether to dump Sunak and Hunt for Starmer and his team. This is how results like 1992 happen. This is reality of electoral politics.
Talk is cheap . And next May I'll score an absolute screamer that sends West Brom back into the Premiership. Neither my, nor Mr Sunak's proclamations are remotely likely to become reality.
I think they will get a grip on it and show good results over the next year or two now. Actually. It was never as difficult as Patel and Boris made out was it? Patel wasted so much time and energy on the Rwanda “magic bullet” - but so quickly deporting Albanian’s and other economic migrants is certain to speed up processing because the ratio of handlers to claims will quickly change would it not? A handler working on 5 Albanian claims in a row will be working on 5 legit Asylum claims instead. So Rishi will be able to March into PMQs in a years time and flatten Starmer with huge progress in processed claims and size of backlog, that part of the issue is not too difficult. Though it remains to be seen how much progress can be made stopping boats from launching, but progress on that front too was never beyond the reach of extra money and better collaboration with the French too, was it ever?
Their ideas about speeding up the asylum system sound totally dysfunctional. I read somewhere that they were going to increase the amount of decisions each caseworker issues from 1 to 4 each week. I think the caseworkers are entry level civil servants on just over the minimum wage. This type of initiative is destined for either failure or unforeseeable negative consequences of some description.
4 decisions a week is appallingly slow. I can't think what 'unforeseeable negative consequences' that you can see arising from this acceleration from a de facto full stop to a gentle amble.
Without significant investment in the underlying systems; the most likely predictable consequence of this will be that the decisions will be so bad that they get overturned in the court, at the next step of the process, even more than they do already.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
Everyone I talk to curls their lip at the mere mention or sighs. Little sign of support where I am.
Well they would say that mid term, they nearly always do, especially with Boris and Truss fresh in their heads.
But you are confidently stating about something two years hence, after 2 years of stable Sunak government delivering the voters priorities fresh in the mind - which is why your statement is vague unscientific daftness, isn’t it?
Yeah but, you've been implying the polling evidence is on your side. It isn't yet.
You may turn out to be the sagest of sages but if you do, it will all be down to guesswork.
I’m not predicting anything, not sage anything. I’m just reporting what is already going on in front of us. The media and voter love in with Sunak and his government has been going on for weeks right in front of you, my little Mex Pet. Open your eyes. Starmer and the Labour Party can’t lay a glove on them at the moment. And unlike Boris and Truss, the Sunak government does all the right things on all the right issues - look at todays announcement, sending MPs home for Christmas with deals agreed and five point plans now in place.
Sure don’t listen to me. But this is front page of tomorrows FT. SUNAK TOUGH ON MIGRANTS.
If only being tough on migrants made everything better. It might shock 70 year old home owners in the shires and working class right on lads on the coasts, but turns out it doesn't.
It’s just sensible good politics to get this done on the eve of Christmas holidays, MPs heading to constituency’s. The difference between Sunak’s government digging the party out a hole, his PM predecessors, and like Starmer too, were poor at reading all the documents and being on top all the detail, so not delivering.
Boris was dumped because he was never going to deliver on his promises of 2019. But they don’t count now, they are out the game - the next election is fought solely upon Sunak and Hunt’s record over the next two years, on migrant invasion, cost of living, and hospital waiting lists, and wether to dump Sunak and Hunt for Starmer and his team. This is how results like 1992 happen. This is reality of electoral politics.
Talk is cheap . And next May I'll score an absolute screamer that sends West Brom back into the Premiership. Neither my, nor Mr Sunak's proclamations are remotely likely to become reality.
I think they will get a grip on it and show good results over the next year or two now. Actually. It was never as difficult as Patel and Boris made out was it? Patel wasted so much time and energy on the Rwanda “magic bullet” - but so quickly deporting Albanian’s and other economic migrants is certain to speed up processing because the ratio of handlers to claims will quickly change would it not? A handler working on 5 Albanian claims in a row will be working on 5 legit Asylum claims instead. So Rishi will be able to March into PMQs in a years time and flatten Starmer with huge progress in processed claims and size of backlog, that part of the issue is not too difficult. Though it remains to be seen how much progress can be made stopping boats from launching, but progress on that front too was never beyond the reach of extra money and better collaboration with the French too, was it ever?
Their ideas about speeding up the asylum system sound totally dysfunctional. I read somewhere that they were going to increase the amount of decisions each caseworker issues from 1 to 4 each week. I think the caseworkers are entry level civil servants on just over the minimum wage. This type of initiative is destined for either failure or unforeseeable negative consequences of some description.
4 decisions a week is appallingly slow. I can't think what 'unforeseeable negative consequences' that you can see arising from this acceleration from a de facto full stop to a gentle amble.
Without significant investment in the underlying systems; the most likely predictable consequence of this will be that the decisions will be so bad that they get overturned in the court, at the next step of the process, even more than they do already.
As it stands, around half of appeals overturn the original decision, which does suggest that the original decision is wrong very frequently.
A useful initiative would be to get the initial decision right, rather than wrong but more quickly.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
It has of course not occurred to them that their stupid ‘curriculum inspection framework’ with its enormous extra workload, or their confused messages on what they want to see, might possibly be part of the problem.
I suppose, looked at positively, it does make a difference from those old 'When will we next see a Conservative Lead' threads. The ones which used to get posted up every month.
Eventually the penny will drop. The tories are in for a trouncing.
The latest Deltapoll yesterday has the Tories on 32%, the same as they got in 2005 and 2% more than they got in 1997 and 3% more than Labour got in 2010 which was a hung parliament
I think the Tories will be regularly polling around 33% fairly soon.
I agree.
In short, Starmer isn't getting enough direct Tory to Labour switchers, isn't a hugely impressive leader (as Blair was), and there aren't that many people who are left-wing.
I expect Conservative support to rally somewhat during an actual election campaign - as the real prospect of a Labour government comes into focus - and for Sunak to be quite an effective campaigner.
In normal circumstances I'd agree with Mike that the Don't Knows will largely return home. However, the economic fundamentals are so catastrophic that I think it's more likely that things will get worse for the Tories. There's a bit of a Sunak bounce at the moment, but for how long?
Absolutely. There has to be a BIG fall in CPI in 2023 maybe to no more than 3% by the end of 2023 for the government to regain any economic credibility. Not sure that will happen.
3% is probably on the optimistic side but there will be a sharp fall from current peaks. There has been a fall today: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-63923932 Oil and gas prices have been stable to falling for a month now. Food is the problem but again there are some hints that we are at a peak overall even if there are supply problems in some areas.
I think the forecast at the time of the budget will prove somewhat pessimistic. We again saw some signs of that in the October GDP figure which was up 0.5%. I see the economy flat to edging down rather than a major recession. The challenge to the Tories is going to be wages which have taken a serious dunt in real terms. People will not feel better off because they won't be and the government will be blamed.
All of which is a long winded way of saying I agree.
Bloody hell, I knew it would be cold in the UK in December, but wasn’t expecting it to be quite this cold!! I guess seeing family makes up for it, but I can see why I prefer somewhere hotter!
Bloody hell, I knew it would be cold in the UK in December, but wasn’t expecting it to be quite this cold!! I guess seeing family makes up for it, but I can see why I prefer somewhere hotter!
It’s actually been very mild this year until the last ten days or so. You were just unlucky in your timing.
I think this makes it virtually impossible for the ghouls on the Supreme Court to do a Dobbs on these rights, particularly given the substantial bipartisan vote for the legislation.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
Heathener showing their true colours, especially after the hogwash at weekend about being unable to put the heating on as being as poor as a church mouse. Flip flops between being loaded and poverty stricken as the occasion suits. A fake.
Bloody hell, I knew it would be cold in the UK in December, but wasn’t expecting it to be quite this cold!! I guess seeing family makes up for it, but I can see why I prefer somewhere hotter!
There was a brief period on Monday evening when some of the pavements melted a bit (and then froze into black ice). What are you moaning at?
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
This is so typical of the classic tory attitude to generalise and deride public sector workers. It has proven to be massively profitable for a lot of people and I will explain why. Tory blindness and prejudice about the issue of public sector pay means that they cannot formulate effective policy to address vast skill shortages driven by the fact that many public sector workers quit in favour of careers in the 'lower paid' private sector. It is perhaps best thought of as ultimately being just a limitation of understanding which, having been perpetuated for 12 years, will now result in catastrophic and well deserved political losses. A large amount of people in the public sector have gamed this perfectly; they walked out of jobs paying £30k and now earn £90k as 'interim contractors' doing the same job, to fill 'temporary skill shortages', because the public sector has no choice as it needs to fulfil 'statutory functions', which have in turn been massively expanded by.... the conservative government! The tories are in a lot of ways a great friend to public sector workers, just not in quite the way they might imagine.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
It is about 2-3 hundred under at present and will be well above from April so you are dancing on the head of a pin there. Bigger issue is many on benefits will be getting more than minimum wage.
I suppose, looked at positively, it does make a difference from those old 'When will we next see a Conservative Lead' threads. The ones which used to get posted up every month.
Eventually the penny will drop. The tories are in for a trouncing.
The latest Deltapoll yesterday has the Tories on 32%, the same as they got in 2005 and 2% more than they got in 1997 and 3% more than Labour got in 2010 which was a hung parliament
I think the Tories will be regularly polling around 33% fairly soon.
I agree.
In short, Starmer isn't getting enough direct Tory to Labour switchers, isn't a hugely impressive leader (as Blair was), and there aren't that many people who are left-wing.
I expect Conservative support to rally somewhat during an actual election campaign - as the real prospect of a Labour government comes into focus - and for Sunak to be quite an effective campaigner.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
It’s two-coat weather where I’m standing, outside Heathrow airport.
-6 in my bit of W Yorks this morning, though probably a local anomaly, as it was only -3 at the other end of my ten mile commute. I've never seen a difference of more than one degree before.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
This is so typical of the classic tory attitude to generalise and deride public sector workers. It has proven to be massively profitable for a lot of people and I will explain why. Tory blindness and prejudice about the issue of public sector pay means that they cannot formulate effective policy to address vast skill shortages driven by the fact that many public sector workers quit in favour of careers in the 'lower paid' private sector. It is perhaps best thought of as ultimately being just a limitation of understanding which, having been perpetuated for 12 years, will now result in catastrophic and well deserved political losses. A large amount of people in the public sector have gamed this perfectly; they walked out of jobs paying £30k and now earn £90k as 'interim contractors' doing the same job, to fill 'temporary skill shortages', because the public sector has no choice as it needs to fulfil 'statutory functions', which have in turn been massively expanded by.... the conservative government! The tories are in a lot of ways a great friend to public sector workers, just not in quite the way they might imagine.
Yes, quite true. Why work for the NHS as an ODP (Operating Department Practitioner) on band 5, (starting at £27 000) when you can work Agency for £500 per day in the same hospital?
Bulletin from a Romford train station queue: g It's chilly out, best put on an extra Jersey.
Do you need your big coat yet?
It’s two-coat weather where I’m standing, outside Heathrow airport.
-6 in my bit of W Yorks this morning, though probably a local anomaly, as it was only -3 at the other end of my ten mile commute. I've never seen a difference of more than one degree before.
I noticed that yesterday when coming home from Edinburgh. The temperature varied from -1 to -6 in a journey of 50 miles. It was not a constant change but very localised different temperatures with much bigger differences than I had ever seen before. Presumably this is a consequence of having so little wind in the last few days.
I suppose, looked at positively, it does make a difference from those old 'When will we next see a Conservative Lead' threads. The ones which used to get posted up every month.
Eventually the penny will drop. The tories are in for a trouncing.
The latest Deltapoll yesterday has the Tories on 32%, the same as they got in 2005 and 2% more than they got in 1997 and 3% more than Labour got in 2010 which was a hung parliament
I think the Tories will be regularly polling around 33% fairly soon.
I agree.
In short, Starmer isn't getting enough direct Tory to Labour switchers, isn't a hugely impressive leader (as Blair was), and there aren't that many people who are left-wing.
I expect Conservative support to rally somewhat during an actual election campaign - as the real prospect of a Labour government comes into focus - and for Sunak to be quite an effective campaigner.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
The politically feasible solution to achieve what you are getting at, is to just pay them their pensions but take it all back in tax once their income rises above a certain level (possibly the higher tax band).
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
Isn't the issue with means testing pensions that it discourages people from saving for their pensions, making a lot of our underlying problems even worse?
BREAKING: GB News understands a major incident is unfolding in the Channel after a migrant boat capsized, with more than 30 people thrown into the water. We understand there have been fatalities... LATEST LIVE on Breakfast now... https://twitter.com/IsabelWebster_/status/1602937464213340162
Inflation falling and this is without the drop in petrol prices from ~160p to ~150p and expected to fall to ~140p by the end of this month. We could see the headline rate fall quite a lot faster than is being forecast just because of base effects
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
The politically feasible solution to achieve what you are getting at, is to just pay them their pensions but take it all back in tax once their income rises above a certain level (possibly the higher tax band).
Or Pensioners pay NI, and the threshold is the same as the State Pension.
BREAKING: GB News understands a major incident is unfolding in the Channel after a migrant boat capsized, with more than 30 people thrown into the water. We understand there have been fatalities... LATEST LIVE on Breakfast now... https://twitter.com/IsabelWebster_/status/1602937464213340162
Anyone who falls into the Channel at this temperature without cold water survival gear or at the very least a rubber suit is going to be very, very lucky if they survive.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
The politically feasible solution to achieve what you are getting at, is to just pay them their pensions but take it all back in tax once their income rises above a certain level (possibly the higher tax band).
Still political suicide. But why on earth do we still have an age allowance of £12,570? Why are pensioners who have income in excess of the average net income of those in work being asked to pay less to no tax? And, of course, no NI? Its just bizarre. These perks are for better off pensioners, not those with no other income. They need to be abolished.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
Isn't the issue with means testing pensions that it discourages people from saving for their pensions, making a lot of our underlying problems even worse?
That’s one issue. Another is that, as with child benefit, the number of people actually affected is much smaller than expected (and very over-represented among people on this board, their friends and family).
The more sensible option should be to merge employee NI into income tax, which has been in the political too-difficult pile for several decades already - and so long as they leave the existing option to pay in when not working or working abroad, for totally selfish reasons!
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
David, people on benefits get way more than pension money and when they drop off and get put on pension credits they get access to all sorts of money. The pensions are not the issue, they are peanuts and less than half the minimum wage. Anyone suggesting that that is generous ( under £10K per annum ) and should be cut is not right in the head.
Well this is a disaster waiting to happen, I fear for Morocco fans tonight.
A Paris official on Tuesday asked for the Champs-Elysees to be closed for Wednesday’s World Cup semi-final clash between France and Morocco, fearing “the world’s beautiful avenue” could turn into a “battlefield” with scenes of “civil war” after the high-stakes encounter.
Paris says it will mobilise 2,000 police across the city during the game but Jeanne d'Hauteserre, the local mayor of the 8th arrondissement - where the Champs-Elysees is based - called the number “insufficient”.
Is Tory’s defection to Reform UK the beginning of a trickle – or a flood? As discontent among the Conservative grassroots grows, the party faces the prospect of supporters voting with their feet
"Rishi Sunak’s strategy to project competence since replacing Liz Truss as Prime Minister seven weeks ago has been to keep a low profile and get on with the job.
But politics, like nature, abhors a vacuum, and the lack of visibility from the new leader – coupled with a sense of drift over public sector strikes and immigration – means Tory supporters are starting to vote with their feet.
On Thursday, The Telegraph revealed that Cllr David White has resigned from his role as the Conservative Party’s South Yorkshire area chairman and will be standing for Reform UK in Barnsley at the next election.
He said: “The Conservative Party has changed, with them being unable or unwilling to make the big decisions. I am convinced that they are not in tune with the working people here in Barnsley and across the UK.”
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
Isn't the issue with means testing pensions that it discourages people from saving for their pensions, making a lot of our underlying problems even worse?
That’s one issue. Another is that, as with child benefit, the number of people actually affected is much smaller than expected (and very over-represented among people on this board, their friends and family).
The more sensible option should be to merge employee NI into income tax, which has been in the political too-difficult pile for several decades already - and so long as they leave the existing option to pay in when not working or working abroad, for totally selfish reasons!
No, employee NI should be ring-fenced for the state pension, contributions based employment benefits and ideally some state healthcare as it was established to do
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
It is about 2-3 hundred under at present and will be well above from April so you are dancing on the head of a pin there. Bigger issue is many on benefits will be getting more than minimum wage.
They won't because those on minimum wage also claim in work benefits and benefits for rent etc
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
The politically feasible solution to achieve what you are getting at, is to just pay them their pensions but take it all back in tax once their income rises above a certain level (possibly the higher tax band).
You halfwitted clown, pensioners pay the same tax as anyone else, they get the same tax allowance. Only those on pension credit benefits don't pay tax. How thick can you Tories be.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
This is so typical of the classic tory attitude to generalise and deride public sector workers. It has proven to be massively profitable for a lot of people and I will explain why. Tory blindness and prejudice about the issue of public sector pay means that they cannot formulate effective policy to address vast skill shortages driven by the fact that many public sector workers quit in favour of careers in the 'lower paid' private sector. It is perhaps best thought of as ultimately being just a limitation of understanding which, having been perpetuated for 12 years, will now result in catastrophic and well deserved political losses. A large amount of people in the public sector have gamed this perfectly; they walked out of jobs paying £30k and now earn £90k as 'interim contractors' doing the same job, to fill 'temporary skill shortages', because the public sector has no choice as it needs to fulfil 'statutory functions', which have in turn been massively expanded by.... the conservative government! The tories are in a lot of ways a great friend to public sector workers, just not in quite the way they might imagine.
Yes, quite true. Why work for the NHS as an ODP (Operating Department Practitioner) on band 5, (starting at £27 000) when you can work Agency for £500 per day in the same hospital?
Yes that's another example. Paying a contractor £100k per year (equivalent) for a job that the public sector recruit for at £27k (ie only £7k above the minimum wage).
People say that agency working is insecure but actually the demand for it is endless and this won't change until competent people are bought back in to the public sector by better conditions and higher wages.
WFH has never felt better than on cold freezing days like today.
Don't expect these strikes to last very long, the RMT is not offering strike pay for this round. The workers are actually losing all 10 days of pay, the strike is costing them £1.9k if the don't turn up for all of it. By the end of the 10 days barely any of them will be on the picket line.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
This is so typical of the classic tory attitude to generalise and deride public sector workers. It has proven to be massively profitable for a lot of people and I will explain why. Tory blindness and prejudice about the issue of public sector pay means that they cannot formulate effective policy to address vast skill shortages driven by the fact that many public sector workers quit in favour of careers in the 'lower paid' private sector. It is perhaps best thought of as ultimately being just a limitation of understanding which, having been perpetuated for 12 years, will now result in catastrophic and well deserved political losses. A large amount of people in the public sector have gamed this perfectly; they walked out of jobs paying £30k and now earn £90k as 'interim contractors' doing the same job, to fill 'temporary skill shortages', because the public sector has no choice as it needs to fulfil 'statutory functions', which have in turn been massively expanded by.... the conservative government! The tories are in a lot of ways a great friend to public sector workers, just not in quite the way they might imagine.
Yes, quite true. Why work for the NHS as an ODP (Operating Department Practitioner) on band 5, (starting at £27 000) when you can work Agency for £500 per day in the same hospital?
Yes that's another example. Paying a contractor £100k per year (equivalent) for a job that the public sector recruit for at £27k (ie only £7k above the minimum wage).
People say that agency working is insecure but actually the demand for it is endless and this won't change until competent people are bought back in to the public sector by better conditions and higher wages.
It is actually still more financially rewarding to be a supply teacher than an NQT. In fact, if I went on supply full time I would probably barely notice the difference from the top whack I was getting.
However, the difficulty is you don't get to complete your induction year while on supply, and you also don't build up pension.
Well this is a disaster waiting to happen, I fear for Morocco fans tonight.
A Paris official on Tuesday asked for the Champs-Elysees to be closed for Wednesday’s World Cup semi-final clash between France and Morocco, fearing “the world’s beautiful avenue” could turn into a “battlefield” with scenes of “civil war” after the high-stakes encounter.
Paris says it will mobilise 2,000 police across the city during the game but Jeanne d'Hauteserre, the local mayor of the 8th arrondissement - where the Champs-Elysees is based - called the number “insufficient”.
I suppose, looked at positively, it does make a difference from those old 'When will we next see a Conservative Lead' threads. The ones which used to get posted up every month.
Eventually the penny will drop. The tories are in for a trouncing.
The latest Deltapoll yesterday has the Tories on 32%, the same as they got in 2005 and 2% more than they got in 1997 and 3% more than Labour got in 2010 which was a hung parliament
I think the Tories will be regularly polling around 33% fairly soon.
I agree.
In short, Starmer isn't getting enough direct Tory to Labour switchers, isn't a hugely impressive leader (as Blair was), and there aren't that many people who are left-wing.
I expect Conservative support to rally somewhat during an actual election campaign - as the real prospect of a Labour government comes into focus - and for Sunak to be quite an effective campaigner.
Sunak an effective campaigner?
The chap who lost to Liz Truss?
I have my doubts.
That was amongst a skewed Tory selectorate and he ran her far closer than thought.
I could see him doing well in debates and on the stump. He's a good communicator.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
David, people on benefits get way more than pension money and when they drop off and get put on pension credits they get access to all sorts of money. The pensions are not the issue, they are peanuts and less than half the minimum wage. Anyone suggesting that that is generous ( under £10K per annum ) and should be cut is not right in the head.
The basic state pension is currently £7,376.20 a year, before the inflation increase. I agree it is not a lot. But there are many pensioners to whom this is just sweetie money on top of their personal pensions. Good luck to them too, they have usually paid for these pensions directly or indirectly. But they should not get additional tax reliefs that those who are earning similar sums don't get. That is unconscionable.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
The politically feasible solution to achieve what you are getting at, is to just pay them their pensions but take it all back in tax once their income rises above a certain level (possibly the higher tax band).
Still political suicide. But why on earth do we still have an age allowance of £12,570? Why are pensioners who have income in excess of the average net income of those in work being asked to pay less to no tax? And, of course, no NI? Its just bizarre. These perks are for better off pensioners, not those with no other income. They need to be abolished.
I don't see a measure that targets very wealthy pensioners who have real incomes higher than the vast majority of the working population from their combined DB and state pensions, who already benefit from allowances and not having to pay NI; is political suicide. They would complain about the 'injustice' but they would get no public support, as long as the message is communicated effectively.
It is only political suicide if you start to reduce the incomes of those who rely on the state pension, or those with a combined income similar to that over the national minimum wage.
It’s two-coat weather where I’m standing, outside Heathrow airport.
Us Northerners are wearing our big coat this week.
Perhaps @Gallowgate could let us know when the Geordies have put their T-shirts on? That's when we know it's *really* cold.
Yorkshireman myself so in the absence of snow, sleet or rain it's still not coat weather. That said, I will wear a hat and (fingerless) gloves out. So not as hardy as the Geordies.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
The politically feasible solution to achieve what you are getting at, is to just pay them their pensions but take it all back in tax once their income rises above a certain level (possibly the higher tax band).
You halfwitted clown, pensioners pay the same tax as anyone else, they get the same tax allowance. Only those on pension credit benefits don't pay tax. How thick can you Tories be.
You are living in a fantasy world of your own making Malcolm.
Pensioners pay 13.25% less tax on income between £12,584 and £50,284 pa than those in work; they pay 2% less tax on earnings above £50,284 than those earning.
The fact that that tax is called NI doesn't make it any less of a tax.
BREAKING: GB News understands a major incident is unfolding in the Channel after a migrant boat capsized, with more than 30 people thrown into the water. We understand there have been fatalities... LATEST LIVE on Breakfast now... https://twitter.com/IsabelWebster_/status/1602937464213340162
Anyone who falls into the Channel at this temperature without cold water survival gear or at the very least a rubber suit is going to be very, very lucky if they survive.
I'm assuming these migrants didn't have either.
That is awful, and a truly hellish way to die if so.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
David, people on benefits get way more than pension money and when they drop off and get put on pension credits they get access to all sorts of money. The pensions are not the issue, they are peanuts and less than half the minimum wage. Anyone suggesting that that is generous ( under £10K per annum ) and should be cut is not right in the head.
The basic state pension is currently £7,376.20 a year, before the inflation increase. I agree it is not a lot. But there are many pensioners to whom this is just sweetie money on top of their personal pensions. Good luck to them too, they have usually paid for these pensions directly or indirectly. But they should not get additional tax reliefs that those who are earning similar sums don't get. That is unconscionable.
What extra allowance are you referring to David? I'm not aware of any additional tax relief.
Good. She was not a good PM (maybe in less febrile times she'd have been better), but she has not embarrassed herself since, and despite the Boris moaners her interventions have been targeted not persistent.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
The politically feasible solution to achieve what you are getting at, is to just pay them their pensions but take it all back in tax once their income rises above a certain level (possibly the higher tax band).
You halfwitted clown, pensioners pay the same tax as anyone else, they get the same tax allowance. Only those on pension credit benefits don't pay tax. How thick can you Tories be.
You are living in a fantasy world of your own making Malcolm.
Pensioners pay 13.25% less tax on income between £12,584 and £50,284 pa than those in work; they pay 2% less tax on earnings above £50,284 than those earning.
The fact that that tax is called NI doesn't make it any less of a tax.
This year was the perfect year to introduce NI on pensioners as well with the triple lock increase covering all of the tax rise for middle income pensioners so only those with £24k+ would be bet worse off.
Inflation falling and this is without the drop in petrol prices from ~160p to ~150p and expected to fall to ~140p by the end of this month. We could see the headline rate fall quite a lot faster than is being forecast just because of base effects
Diesel is not dropping as fast , cost me £118 to fill up at weekend.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
Yes, it could be argued that the triple lock is less of an iniquity than the lower rate of tax (by dint of not paying NI) and the various other freebies that even well off pensioners get. Charging NI on unearned income including pensions would be a fairer approach for the lower paid and bring in more money than ending the triple lock. But what chance is there of that happening?
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
This is so typical of the classic tory attitude to generalise and deride public sector workers. It has proven to be massively profitable for a lot of people and I will explain why. Tory blindness and prejudice about the issue of public sector pay means that they cannot formulate effective policy to address vast skill shortages driven by the fact that many public sector workers quit in favour of careers in the 'lower paid' private sector. It is perhaps best thought of as ultimately being just a limitation of understanding which, having been perpetuated for 12 years, will now result in catastrophic and well deserved political losses. A large amount of people in the public sector have gamed this perfectly; they walked out of jobs paying £30k and now earn £90k as 'interim contractors' doing the same job, to fill 'temporary skill shortages', because the public sector has no choice as it needs to fulfil 'statutory functions', which have in turn been massively expanded by.... the conservative government! The tories are in a lot of ways a great friend to public sector workers, just not in quite the way they might imagine.
I know people who joke that they should all quit and be hired as contractors instead. It's a surprise more have not actually done it. Yet.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
David, people on benefits get way more than pension money and when they drop off and get put on pension credits they get access to all sorts of money. The pensions are not the issue, they are peanuts and less than half the minimum wage. Anyone suggesting that that is generous ( under £10K per annum ) and should be cut is not right in the head.
The basic state pension is currently £7,376.20 a year, before the inflation increase. I agree it is not a lot. But there are many pensioners to whom this is just sweetie money on top of their personal pensions. Good luck to them too, they have usually paid for these pensions directly or indirectly. But they should not get additional tax reliefs that those who are earning similar sums don't get. That is unconscionable.
What extra allowance are you referring to David? I'm not aware of any additional tax relief.
No and I certainly do not get them so very interested, my tax code is negative.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
The politically feasible solution to achieve what you are getting at, is to just pay them their pensions but take it all back in tax once their income rises above a certain level (possibly the higher tax band).
You halfwitted clown, pensioners pay the same tax as anyone else, they get the same tax allowance. Only those on pension credit benefits don't pay tax. How thick can you Tories be.
You are living in a fantasy world of your own making Malcolm.
Pensioners pay 13.25% less tax on income between £12,584 and £50,284 pa than those in work; they pay 2% less tax on earnings above £50,284 than those earning.
The fact that that tax is called NI doesn't make it any less of a tax.
I agree with you and am one of those pushing for NI to be paid by everyone in work irrespective of age. But you are being unfair or disingenuous in your attack on Malcolm. Throughout the discussions this morning everyone has been making a distinction between tax and NI and Malcolm is clearly referring to the tax element rather than the NI element. It is an accepted language we use in these discussions even if we think the system is wrong.
So to say he is living in a fantasy world is uncalled for.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
David, people on benefits get way more than pension money and when they drop off and get put on pension credits they get access to all sorts of money. The pensions are not the issue, they are peanuts and less than half the minimum wage. Anyone suggesting that that is generous ( under £10K per annum ) and should be cut is not right in the head.
The basic state pension is currently £7,376.20 a year, before the inflation increase. I agree it is not a lot. But there are many pensioners to whom this is just sweetie money on top of their personal pensions. Good luck to them too, they have usually paid for these pensions directly or indirectly. But they should not get additional tax reliefs that those who are earning similar sums don't get. That is unconscionable.
What extra allowance are you referring to David? I'm not aware of any additional tax relief.
The old age allowance was abolished in 2016 but you can still claim married couples allowance if one of you was born before 1935: https://www.gov.uk/married-couples-allowance. There are also tax reliefs in respect of maintenance paid once you reach retirement age. It is no longer as generous as I thought it was to be honest. Not paying NI is probably the biggest tax differential.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
The politically feasible solution to achieve what you are getting at, is to just pay them their pensions but take it all back in tax once their income rises above a certain level (possibly the higher tax band).
You halfwitted clown, pensioners pay the same tax as anyone else, they get the same tax allowance. Only those on pension credit benefits don't pay tax. How thick can you Tories be.
You are living in a fantasy world of your own making Malcolm.
Pensioners pay 13.25% less tax on income between £12,584 and £50,284 pa than those in work; they pay 2% less tax on earnings above £50,284 than those earning.
The fact that that tax is called NI doesn't make it any less of a tax.
You cannot beat a greedy Tory's idea of what tax is, clue is in the name TAX. Always looking to grift off others.
Inflation falling and this is without the drop in petrol prices from ~160p to ~150p and expected to fall to ~140p by the end of this month. We could see the headline rate fall quite a lot faster than is being forecast just because of base effects
Diesel is not dropping as fast , cost me £118 to fill up at weekend.
I suppose, looked at positively, it does make a difference from those old 'When will we next see a Conservative Lead' threads. The ones which used to get posted up every month.
Eventually the penny will drop. The tories are in for a trouncing.
The latest Deltapoll yesterday has the Tories on 32%, the same as they got in 2005 and 2% more than they got in 1997 and 3% more than Labour got in 2010 which was a hung parliament
I think the Tories will be regularly polling around 33% fairly soon.
I agree.
In short, Starmer isn't getting enough direct Tory to Labour switchers, isn't a hugely impressive leader (as Blair was), and there aren't that many people who are left-wing.
I expect Conservative support to rally somewhat during an actual election campaign - as the real prospect of a Labour government comes into focus - and for Sunak to be quite an effective campaigner.
Sunak an effective campaigner?
The chap who lost to Liz Truss?
I have my doubts.
Yes, but that was a very odd market to pitch to.
He was weirdly passive for much of it, but without just copying her outright it's hard to see how he could win given he was promising less goodies.
On topic, I agree with Mike - the Scottish issue is fundamental, but some of the predicted lost Tory seats are just highly improbable for me - Starmer is not a galvaniser, and his shadow cabinet will be enough to frighten off a lot of fed-up blue voters who will likely stay at home rather than give their vote to Labour. And there is nuance: I spotted on a constituency hexmap yesterday my own constituency going red, when realistically it's a Tory/LD swing seat, and will go orange most likely.
Labour most seats but short of a majority seems likely to me. The one thing that could change this is if Farage is running short of cash and needs to engage a new grift vehicle to pincer the Tories on the right.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
David, people on benefits get way more than pension money and when they drop off and get put on pension credits they get access to all sorts of money. The pensions are not the issue, they are peanuts and less than half the minimum wage. Anyone suggesting that that is generous ( under £10K per annum ) and should be cut is not right in the head.
The basic state pension is currently £7,376.20 a year, before the inflation increase. I agree it is not a lot. But there are many pensioners to whom this is just sweetie money on top of their personal pensions. Good luck to them too, they have usually paid for these pensions directly or indirectly. But they should not get additional tax reliefs that those who are earning similar sums don't get. That is unconscionable.
Since April 2015 the level of the standard tax personal allowance is the same whether you are over or under age 65
Inflation falling and this is without the drop in petrol prices from ~160p to ~150p and expected to fall to ~140p by the end of this month. We could see the headline rate fall quite a lot faster than is being forecast just because of base effects
Diesel is not dropping as fast , cost me £118 to fill up at weekend.
Even there though Malcolm (and the differential between petrol and diesel has never been anything like this) the rate has come down a few pence over the last couple of months and is definitely no longer rising. Still bloody expensive though.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
Isn't the issue with means testing pensions that it discourages people from saving for their pensions, making a lot of our underlying problems even worse?
That’s one issue. Another is that, as with child benefit, the number of people actually affected is much smaller than expected (and very over-represented among people on this board, their friends and family).
The more sensible option should be to merge employee NI into income tax, which has been in the political too-difficult pile for several decades already - and so long as they leave the existing option to pay in when not working or working abroad, for totally selfish reasons!
No, employee NI should be ring-fenced for the state pension, contributions based employment benefits and ideally some state healthcare as it was established to do
NI may have been set up as such, but it isn't anymore and pensioners like me who can afford it should pay it. It should be merged with income tax and make tax simpler. Regardless of what you think it is for, it is just another tax now.
I do however agree with you on the state pension. The state pension should be more generous to benefit those less well off and higher proportion clawed back for the more well off. Combining NI with tax helps do that.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
The politically feasible solution to achieve what you are getting at, is to just pay them their pensions but take it all back in tax once their income rises above a certain level (possibly the higher tax band).
You halfwitted clown, pensioners pay the same tax as anyone else, they get the same tax allowance. Only those on pension credit benefits don't pay tax. How thick can you Tories be.
You are living in a fantasy world of your own making Malcolm.
Pensioners pay 13.25% less tax on income between £12,584 and £50,284 pa than those in work; they pay 2% less tax on earnings above £50,284 than those earning.
The fact that that tax is called NI doesn't make it any less of a tax.
I agree with you and am one of those pushing for NI to be paid by everyone in work irrespective of age. But you are being unfair or disingenuous in your attack on Malcolm. Throughout the discussions this morning everyone has been making a distinction between tax and NI and Malcolm is clearly referring to the tax element rather than the NI element. It is an accepted language we use in these discussions even if we think the system is wrong.
So to say he is living in a fantasy world is uncalled for.
I am happy to apologise when I get it wrong but not having trawled through the whole thread I based my comments on what Malcolm said, namely "pensioners pay the same tax as anyone else".
In my book anyone who thinks NI is not a tax is living in a fantasy world.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
The politically feasible solution to achieve what you are getting at, is to just pay them their pensions but take it all back in tax once their income rises above a certain level (possibly the higher tax band).
You halfwitted clown, pensioners pay the same tax as anyone else, they get the same tax allowance. Only those on pension credit benefits don't pay tax. How thick can you Tories be.
You are living in a fantasy world of your own making Malcolm.
Pensioners pay 13.25% less tax on income between £12,584 and £50,284 pa than those in work; they pay 2% less tax on earnings above £50,284 than those earning.
The fact that that tax is called NI doesn't make it any less of a tax.
You cannot beat a greedy Tory's idea of what tax is, clue is in the name TAX. Always looking to grift off others.
People label things a tax which are not taxes eg spare room subsidy/bedroom tax. But equally things that are a tax need not be called a tax.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
The politically feasible solution to achieve what you are getting at, is to just pay them their pensions but take it all back in tax once their income rises above a certain level (possibly the higher tax band).
You halfwitted clown, pensioners pay the same tax as anyone else, they get the same tax allowance. Only those on pension credit benefits don't pay tax. How thick can you Tories be.
You are living in a fantasy world of your own making Malcolm.
Pensioners pay 13.25% less tax on income between £12,584 and £50,284 pa than those in work; they pay 2% less tax on earnings above £50,284 than those earning.
The fact that that tax is called NI doesn't make it any less of a tax.
This year was the perfect year to introduce NI on pensioners as well with the triple lock increase covering all of the tax rise for middle income pensioners so only those with £24k+ would be bet worse off.
Any year is a good year to do it because it is the right thing to do.
Out of interest as I don't actually know though I should. Does an employer pay employer's NI if the employee is not paying employee's NI? That would surely skew the job market to some extent as it would make it cheaper to employ pensioners.
p.s. The Triple Lock is a ridiculous farce and unaffordable. An honest political response would be to peg back pensions more in line with the kind of belt tightening that everyone else, especially the working population, is having to endure.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
The state pension has increased in line with inflation but so has other state benefits and the minimum wage.
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
The problem here is that the state pension, minimum wage, other benefits rise with inflation okay, sounds good.. But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years. This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years. Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated. If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
I think that having pensions across the board rise with inflation when wages are not was wrong. I am more sympathetic to benefit recipients because they already live very close to or even below the breadline and cannot afford to absorb a reduction in real income.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
The politically feasible solution to achieve what you are getting at, is to just pay them their pensions but take it all back in tax once their income rises above a certain level (possibly the higher tax band).
You halfwitted clown, pensioners pay the same tax as anyone else, they get the same tax allowance. Only those on pension credit benefits don't pay tax. How thick can you Tories be.
You are living in a fantasy world of your own making Malcolm.
Pensioners pay 13.25% less tax on income between £12,584 and £50,284 pa than those in work; they pay 2% less tax on earnings above £50,284 than those earning.
The fact that that tax is called NI doesn't make it any less of a tax.
I agree with you and am one of those pushing for NI to be paid by everyone in work irrespective of age. But you are being unfair or disingenuous in your attack on Malcolm. Throughout the discussions this morning everyone has been making a distinction between tax and NI and Malcolm is clearly referring to the tax element rather than the NI element. It is an accepted language we use in these discussions even if we think the system is wrong.
So to say he is living in a fantasy world is uncalled for.
I am happy to apologise when I get it wrong but not having trawled through the whole thread I based my comments on what Malcolm said, namely "pensioners pay the same tax as anyone else".
In my book anyone who thinks NI is not a tax is living in a fantasy world.
He was replying to a specific comment that said
"The politically feasible solution to achieve what you are getting at, is to just pay them their pensions but take it all back in tax once their income rises above a certain level (possibly the higher tax band)."
There is no way that could be read as referring to NI. You are wrong on this and should be big enough to admit it.
Comments
We get it, Mike.
I mean, just sometimes could we have a thread that puts the reasons why they will?!
I too think it likely that things are going to get even worse for the tories.
Eventually the penny will drop. The tories are in for a trouncing.
He has little respect for Sunak. Certainly doesn't admire him in the way he did Boris. He knows Labour are likely to win anyway and his best option for protecting his Brexit may be to try to win for the right.
https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/tories-fear-nigel-farage-reform-uk-b1046855.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/12/03/nigel-farage-real-threat-tory-partys-survival/
He could well hoover up a lot of Don't Knows and general malcontents on the Right.
Rishi's best hope is the grey vote. But it's a finite resource. There's only so many pensioners you can bribe and they aren't getting any younger.
Will they have the honesty and guts to do it? Will they heck.
Is Tory’s defection to Reform UK the beginning of a trickle – or a flood?
As discontent among the Conservative grassroots grows, the party faces the prospect of supporters voting with their feet
"Rishi Sunak’s strategy to project competence since replacing Liz Truss as Prime Minister seven weeks ago has been to keep a low profile and get on with the job.
But politics, like nature, abhors a vacuum, and the lack of visibility from the new leader – coupled with a sense of drift over public sector strikes and immigration – means Tory supporters are starting to vote with their feet.
On Thursday, The Telegraph revealed that Cllr David White has resigned from his role as the Conservative Party’s South Yorkshire area chairman and will be standing for Reform UK in Barnsley at the next election.
He said: “The Conservative Party has changed, with them being unable or unwilling to make the big decisions. I am convinced that they are not in tune with the working people here in Barnsley and across the UK.”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/12/08/torys-defection-reform-uk-beginning-trickle-flood/
https://twitter.com/DeltapollUK/status/1602608859197198337?s=20&t=sqEVgrkTbn1msVml_AXjMw
State pensioners without a private or final salary pension have an income below the minimum wage let alone the average worker
But public sector workers? No. They get a real terms pay cut. As they have had for most of the last 12 years.
This is to the point where many public sector jobs with significant amounts of responsibility, in some cases involving years of education and professional qualifications, that were once respectable jobs are pared back to being paid not much above the minimum wage because they have been frozen for 12 years.
Lots of 'frontline' workers are getting £25k. That's pretty much the minimum wage now.
I've made the point a few times that the fundamental problem here, the fundamental injustice is the disparity between how different groups are being treated.
If it is the case that there is no money and we need to fix the public finances, then freeze everything.
A useful initiative would be to get the initial decision right, rather than wrong but more quickly.
Latest: http://trib.al/Eoxq9NT https://twitter.com/BloombergUK/status/1602923889549606912/photo/1
Public sector workers on average get paid more than private sector workers excluding bonuses
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55089900.amp
Staff crisis holds children back post-Covid - Ofsted
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-63893911
It has of course not occurred to them that their stupid ‘curriculum inspection framework’ with its enormous extra workload, or their confused messages on what they want to see, might possibly be part of the problem.
Amid robot-generated platitudes, human input will yet be prized
By Mary Harrington"
https://unherd.com/2022/12/chatgpt-cant-meme/
It's chilly out, best put on an extra Jersey.
In short, Starmer isn't getting enough direct Tory to Labour switchers, isn't a hugely impressive leader (as Blair was), and there aren't that many people who are left-wing.
I expect Conservative support to rally somewhat during an actual election campaign - as the real prospect of a Labour government comes into focus - and for Sunak to be quite an effective campaigner.
I think the forecast at the time of the budget will prove somewhat pessimistic. We again saw some signs of that in the October GDP figure which was up 0.5%. I see the economy flat to edging down rather than a major recession. The challenge to the Tories is going to be wages which have taken a serious dunt in real terms. People will not feel better off because they won't be and the government will be blamed.
All of which is a long winded way of saying I agree.
Biden signs historic bill codifying same-sex and interracial marriage
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/12/13/biden-s-codifying-same-sex-interracial-marriage-00073762
Tory blindness and prejudice about the issue of public sector pay means that they cannot formulate effective policy to address vast skill shortages driven by the fact that many public sector workers quit in favour of careers in the 'lower paid' private sector.
It is perhaps best thought of as ultimately being just a limitation of understanding which, having been perpetuated for 12 years, will now result in catastrophic and well deserved political losses.
A large amount of people in the public sector have gamed this perfectly; they walked out of jobs paying £30k and now earn £90k as 'interim contractors' doing the same job, to fill 'temporary skill shortages', because the public sector has no choice as it needs to fulfil 'statutory functions', which have in turn been massively expanded by.... the conservative government!
The tories are in a lot of ways a great friend to public sector workers, just not in quite the way they might imagine.
The chap who lost to Liz Truss?
I have my doubts.
We need to start means testing pensions to some degree. Those who do not have pensions in addition are on very low incomes but those who have pensions, specifically defined benefit pensions (who are nearly all ex public sector now) are not.
But this is of course politically impossible. People think that they have paid for their pensions: they are entitled. And they vote. Boy do they vote.
I've never seen a difference of more than one degree before.
https://twitter.com/IsabelWebster_/status/1602937464213340162
I'm assuming these migrants didn't have either.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/dec/14/which-team-won-the-world-cup-with-the-longest-pre-tournament-odds
The more sensible option should be to merge employee NI into income tax, which has been in the political too-difficult pile for several decades already - and so long as they leave the existing option to pay in when not working or working abroad, for totally selfish reasons!
Anyone suggesting that that is generous ( under £10K per annum ) and should be cut is not right in the head.
A Paris official on Tuesday asked for the Champs-Elysees to be closed for Wednesday’s World Cup semi-final clash between France and Morocco, fearing “the world’s beautiful avenue” could turn into a “battlefield” with scenes of “civil war” after the high-stakes encounter.
Paris says it will mobilise 2,000 police across the city during the game but Jeanne d'Hauteserre, the local mayor of the 8th arrondissement - where the Champs-Elysees is based - called the number “insufficient”.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-cup/2022/12/13/paris-official-fears-france-vs-morocco-will-cause-civil-war/
"I am pleased to be able to tell you that our current excellent MP, the Right Honourable Theresa May, has indicated she intends to stand again." https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1602939119952347136/photo/1
I'm currently plotting a route away from the minor roads I usually take on the grounds my car isn't very good at ice skating.
People say that agency working is insecure but actually the demand for it is endless and this won't change until competent people are bought back in to the public sector by better conditions and higher wages.
Although Heath of course stayed in the Commons even longer.
However, the difficulty is you don't get to complete your induction year while on supply, and you also don't build up pension.
DeSantis calls for grand jury investigation of COVID vaccines
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/3773773-desantis-calls-for-grand-jury-investigation-of-covid-vaccines/
I could see him doing well in debates and on the stump. He's a good communicator.
It is only political suicide if you start to reduce the incomes of those who rely on the state pension, or those with a combined income similar to that over the national minimum wage.
Pensioners pay 13.25% less tax on income between £12,584 and £50,284 pa than those in work; they pay 2% less tax on earnings above £50,284 than those earning.
The fact that that tax is called NI doesn't make it any less of a tax.
So to say he is living in a fantasy world is uncalled for.
Labour most seats but short of a majority seems likely to me. The one thing that could change this is if Farage is running short of cash and needs to engage a new grift vehicle to pincer the Tories on the right.
I do however agree with you on the state pension. The state pension should be more generous to benefit those less well off and higher proportion clawed back for the more well off. Combining NI with tax helps do that.
In my book anyone who thinks NI is not a tax is living in a fantasy world.
Out of interest as I don't actually know though I should. Does an employer pay employer's NI if the employee is not paying employee's NI? That would surely skew the job market to some extent as it would make it cheaper to employ pensioners.
"The politically feasible solution to achieve what you are getting at, is to just pay them their pensions but take it all back in tax once their income rises above a certain level (possibly the higher tax band)."
There is no way that could be read as referring to NI. You are wrong on this and should be big enough to admit it.