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Vote blue, go green? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,048
edited December 2022 in General
Vote blue, go green? – politicalbetting.com

The Government has given permission for a new coal mine to be opened in Cumbria. From what you have seen or heard, do you think this is the right or wrong decision?Right decision: 33%Wrong decision: 34%Don't know: 33%https://t.co/3TuNPTBWh6 pic.twitter.com/BYLGIvxq5f

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Comments

  • First?
  • Tupac Shakur if Harry Kane was the shooter.


  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,632

    First?

    I demand a recount.
  • M45M45 Posts: 216
    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,632
    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    well, it seems to be getting people steamed up.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,119
    They’re playing cricket on Hilly Fields today.

    Proper 11 a side cricket involving 2 batsmen, a full field, overs, pads and an umpire. They’re changing ends at the end of each over and even doing that clappy shouting of half hearted encouragement between balls. Just missing a scorer.


  • M45M45 Posts: 216
    ydoethur said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    well, it seems to be getting people steamed up.
    With enough coal in the bunker, they'll be able to get on a train and Rheidol day.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,632
    M45 said:

    ydoethur said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    well, it seems to be getting people steamed up.
    With enough coal in the bunker, they'll be able to get on a train and Rheidol day.
    You can say that Severn times.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,119
    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    It’s about those Facebook nostalgia pages with post titles like “Do you remember real binmen?”

    Another good example of why it’s great Corbyn is no longer Labour leader.
  • M45M45 Posts: 216
    Good God, a real this-changes-everything study

    Sleeping well at night means being in a better mood and happier during the day and vice versa, study finds

    https://www.psypost.org/2022/12/sleeping-well-at-night-means-being-in-a-better-mood-and-happier-during-the-day-and-vice-versa-study-finds-64484
  • M45M45 Posts: 216
    ydoethur said:

    M45 said:

    ydoethur said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    well, it seems to be getting people steamed up.
    With enough coal in the bunker, they'll be able to get on a train and Rheidol day.
    You can say that Severn times.
    I can't count that high, I would need a score keeper Talyllyn them up.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,632
    M45 said:

    ydoethur said:

    M45 said:

    ydoethur said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    well, it seems to be getting people steamed up.
    With enough coal in the bunker, they'll be able to get on a train and Rheidol day.
    You can say that Severn times.
    I can't count that high, I would need a score keeper Talyllyn them up.
    Doesn't work, that's pronounced 'Tarlathlin.'

    Although when you try to explain that lots of English people get Ratty.

    (Now that really does require an anorak-style devotion to the minutiae of steam railways, but is highly appropriate in this context.)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,425
    TimS said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    It’s about those Facebook nostalgia pages with post titles like “Do you remember real binmen?”

    Another good example of why it’s great Corbyn is no longer Labour leader.
    It’s racist to not export all your heavy industry to other countries - was told this by a person who was apparently able to care for themselves.

    So it’s about racism.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,455
    ydoethur said:

    M45 said:

    ydoethur said:

    M45 said:

    ydoethur said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    well, it seems to be getting people steamed up.
    With enough coal in the bunker, they'll be able to get on a train and Rheidol day.
    You can say that Severn times.
    I can't count that high, I would need a score keeper Talyllyn them up.
    Doesn't work, that's pronounced 'Tarlathlin.'

    Although when you try to explain that lots of English people get Ratty.

    (Now that really does require an anorak-style devotion to the minutiae of steam railways, but is highly appropriate in this context.)
    Fair burn to your credit.
  • M45M45 Posts: 216
    Twitter very exercised about Haz n Megz still

    @shadsy market on Haz/both/neither attending coronation would be in order.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    TimS said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    It’s about those Facebook nostalgia pages with post titles like “Do you remember real binmen?”

    Another good example of why it’s great Corbyn is no longer Labour leader.
    The ideological godhead of the tory party is now boomer Facebook memes.

    This coal mine is going to be the target of A LOT of direct action (hopefully violent) that may make its construction or operation unfeasible.
  • M45M45 Posts: 216
    https://twitter.com/DCBMEP/status/1601895861331664896

    David C Bannerman
    @DCBMEP
    Today we have launched CDO - the Conservative Democratic Organisation. We are not a new party but want a true party - a truly democratic Conservative Party that reflects its members’s views and treats them with more respect. Please see more on:

    https://www.conservativedems.co.uk/

    They seem to be antsy about membership not getting to vote for Sunak.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,632
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    M45 said:

    ydoethur said:

    M45 said:

    ydoethur said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    well, it seems to be getting people steamed up.
    With enough coal in the bunker, they'll be able to get on a train and Rheidol day.
    You can say that Severn times.
    I can't count that high, I would need a score keeper Talyllyn them up.
    Doesn't work, that's pronounced 'Tarlathlin.'

    Although when you try to explain that lots of English people get Ratty.

    (Now that really does require an anorak-style devotion to the minutiae of steam railways, but is highly appropriate in this context.)
    Fair burn to your credit.
    Is that a reference to the Fairburn tank or the Fairbourne Railway?
  • I'm feeling festive


  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,632
    M45 said:

    https://twitter.com/DCBMEP/status/1601895861331664896

    David C Bannerman
    @DCBMEP
    Today we have launched CDO - the Conservative Democratic Organisation. We are not a new party but want a true party - a truly democratic Conservative Party that reflects its members’s views and treats them with more respect. Please see more on:

    https://www.conservativedems.co.uk/

    They seem to be antsy about membership not getting to vote for Sunak.

    They did.

    They proceeded to vote for somebody so unfit for office she lasted all of five weeks instead.

    As a result, next time they were told to stay out.

    Admittedly, it does look a bit like one of those EU referendums where they keep asking the question until they get the right answer. I suppose the only difference here was how imposingly Truss imploded.

    Bluntly, the whole saga suggested it was time for a rethink of the CPRB.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,119
    Dura_Ace said:

    TimS said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    It’s about those Facebook nostalgia pages with post titles like “Do you remember real binmen?”

    Another good example of why it’s great Corbyn is no longer Labour leader.
    The ideological godhead of the tory party is now boomer Facebook memes.

    This coal mine is going to be the target of A LOT of direct action (hopefully violent) that may make its construction or operation unfeasible.
    It’ll never happen, and even if it did it’s unlikely to be financially viable. I mean what’s the UEL of a mine getting planning consent now in a world where almost all global steel makers are committed to net zero by 2040 or 2050?

    The post above making vague comments about racism illustrates the point perfectly. This is about the government looking for a political argument.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,455
    edited December 2022
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    M45 said:

    ydoethur said:

    M45 said:

    ydoethur said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    well, it seems to be getting people steamed up.
    With enough coal in the bunker, they'll be able to get on a train and Rheidol day.
    You can say that Severn times.
    I can't count that high, I would need a score keeper Talyllyn them up.
    Doesn't work, that's pronounced 'Tarlathlin.'

    Although when you try to explain that lots of English people get Ratty.

    (Now that really does require an anorak-style devotion to the minutiae of steam railways, but is highly appropriate in this context.)
    Fair burn to your credit.
    Is that a reference to the Fairburn tank or the Fairbourne Railway?
    Latter; I'd forgotten the former, but it was standard gauge anyway!

    (Happy memories of a spring week based at Harlech and wandering the coast railway line - took a trip up the Tal-y-Llyn and walked up the old incline to the remnants of the slate quarries and working sheds, coming back via [edit!] Abergynolwyn to the railway terminus.)
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,573
    M45 said:

    Good God, a real this-changes-everything study

    Sleeping well at night means being in a better mood and happier during the day and vice versa, study finds

    https://www.psypost.org/2022/12/sleeping-well-at-night-means-being-in-a-better-mood-and-happier-during-the-day-and-vice-versa-study-finds-64484

    Is the Pope Catholic?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,738
    Dura_Ace said:

    TimS said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    It’s about those Facebook nostalgia pages with post titles like “Do you remember real binmen?”

    Another good example of why it’s great Corbyn is no longer Labour leader.
    The ideological godhead of the tory party is now boomer Facebook memes.

    This coal mine is going to be the target of A LOT of direct action (hopefully violent) that may make its construction or operation unfeasible.
    I have no particular strong feelings for or against, but it doesn't strike me as a very viable prospect. The coal isn't wanted in the UK by the steel industry, so why would other countries steel industries be different?

    Protest will happen, but the real problems will be economic, the same reason our other deep mines closed.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,455
    edited December 2022
    TimS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TimS said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    It’s about those Facebook nostalgia pages with post titles like “Do you remember real binmen?”

    Another good example of why it’s great Corbyn is no longer Labour leader.
    The ideological godhead of the tory party is now boomer Facebook memes.

    This coal mine is going to be the target of A LOT of direct action (hopefully violent) that may make its construction or operation unfeasible.
    It’ll never happen, and even if it did it’s unlikely to be financially viable. I mean what’s the UEL of a mine getting planning consent now in a world where almost all global steel makers are committed to net zero by 2040 or 2050?

    The post above making vague comments about racism illustrates the point perfectly. This is about the government looking for a political argument.
    Graun/Obs has some interesting reportage. Does in certain lights smack of the equivalent of HMG building statues to slavetraders in order to "win" the resulting asrguments.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/11/new-cumbria-coalmine-backlash-grows-as-steel-industry-plays-down-demand
  • M45M45 Posts: 216

    I'm feeling festive


    Well, you have spoiled my mood. Now I am all tense, but actively hoping that my voice will be heard.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,425
    edited December 2022
    TimS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TimS said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    It’s about those Facebook nostalgia pages with post titles like “Do you remember real binmen?”

    Another good example of why it’s great Corbyn is no longer Labour leader.
    The ideological godhead of the tory party is now boomer Facebook memes.

    This coal mine is going to be the target of A LOT of direct action (hopefully violent) that may make its construction or operation unfeasible.
    It’ll never happen, and even if it did it’s unlikely to be financially viable. I mean what’s the UEL of a mine getting planning consent now in a world where almost all global steel makers are committed to net zero by 2040 or 2050?

    The post above making vague comments about racism illustrates the point perfectly. This is about the government looking for a political argument.
    It’s about people who conflate globalism with reparations. There are a few about.

    I presume @Dura_Ace will be violently attacking anyone with steel in their cars, let alone great lumps of it in lathes and machine tools?

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,768
    ydoethur said:

    M45 said:

    https://twitter.com/DCBMEP/status/1601895861331664896

    David C Bannerman
    @DCBMEP
    Today we have launched CDO - the Conservative Democratic Organisation. We are not a new party but want a true party - a truly democratic Conservative Party that reflects its members’s views and treats them with more respect. Please see more on:

    https://www.conservativedems.co.uk/

    They seem to be antsy about membership not getting to vote for Sunak.

    They did.

    They proceeded to vote for somebody so unfit for office she lasted all of five weeks instead.

    As a result, next time they were told to stay out.

    Admittedly, it does look a bit like one of those EU referendums where they keep asking the question until they get the right answer. I suppose the only difference here was how imposingly Truss imploded.

    Bluntly, the whole saga suggested it was time for a rethink of the CPRB.
    They’ll get to tear the party apart in opposition.
    Why so impatient ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,768
    The case for still betting on Trump (though I don’t really buy it).

    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/12/11/rnc-trump-mcdaniel-election-losses-00073343
    … “If you look at state party organizations, it’s the MAGA strain of Republicanism that’s become dominant,” Steele explained. “And they’re willing to change the rules, they’re willing to ignore an insurrection, refer to it as just ‘political discourse.’ All of that stuff coming out of the national party is a reflection of what’s happening inside the party across the states.”

    The post-midterm recriminations are a signal that dissent is growing, Steele said, but there’s little sign that it’s enough to loosen the former president’s hold on the party. He puts the odds that Trump is the party’s 2024 nominee at 80 percent. Which means that the Republican Party’s fortunes are still firmly tied to Trump, for better or for worse.

    “A party is not going to survive when it is fixated on the ramblings and musings of one person who, in the main, is not a Republican, is not a conservative, but has very effectively used both of those values to secure his political power,” Steele said. “And there have been a lot of people inside the party willing to compromise those values in order for him to do that.”…
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    edited December 2022
    This mine is not a million miles from where I live. I drove past the location a few weeks back in fact. It is in the industrial - now increasingly post-industrial - part of Cumbria that most tourists don't know about or visit. Sellafield is just down the road. There are proposals for undersea nuclear storage in the area. There is a tension between those wanting jobs for the area and those who think that the focus should be on green jobs. In fact, there are a lot of wind farms hereabouts - both on and offshore. So it is not either/or.

    The new Labour leader of what will become Cumberland County Council says that he will stop it. Trouble is the council is based in Carlisle and like its predecessor doesn't give a toss about this part of Cumberland. Its waste policies are so appalling that at one point it was responsible for creating a statutory nuisance in a Site of Special Scientific Interest in Haverigg. So I take its "green credentials" with a hefty dose of salt. Most of its staff responsible for services in the area have never even visited the areas they are responsible for.

    I don't know enough about the mine to express a view to be honest. I do know that those who say "no" to everything in areas like this need to come up with some realistic practical proposals for the area which are something more than "come here and buy some ice creams in the summer".
  • M45 said:

    I'm feeling festive


    Well, you have spoiled my mood. Now I am all tense, but actively hoping that my voice will be heard.
    Sounds like you're having an apophony
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    Nigelb said:

    The case for still betting on Trump (though I don’t really buy it).

    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/12/11/rnc-trump-mcdaniel-election-losses-00073343
    … “If you look at state party organizations, it’s the MAGA strain of Republicanism that’s become dominant,” Steele explained. “And they’re willing to change the rules, they’re willing to ignore an insurrection, refer to it as just ‘political discourse.’ All of that stuff coming out of the national party is a reflection of what’s happening inside the party across the states.”

    The post-midterm recriminations are a signal that dissent is growing, Steele said, but there’s little sign that it’s enough to loosen the former president’s hold on the party. He puts the odds that Trump is the party’s 2024 nominee at 80 percent. Which means that the Republican Party’s fortunes are still firmly tied to Trump, for better or for worse.

    “A party is not going to survive when it is fixated on the ramblings and musings of one person who, in the main, is not a Republican, is not a conservative, but has very effectively used both of those values to secure his political power,” Steele said. “And there have been a lot of people inside the party willing to compromise those values in order for him to do that.”…

    It is still going to be Trump. I don't think British people appreciate just how strong the "my team" vs "your team" mentality is in the US, especially among the white working class. Trump will fight harder than anyone else and unapologetically. The fact he isn't limited by acceptable political discourse is an asset for them.
  • M45M45 Posts: 216

    M45 said:

    I'm feeling festive


    Well, you have spoiled my mood. Now I am all tense, but actively hoping that my voice will be heard.
    Sounds like you're having an apophony
    Yes. I spend a fortune on diversity training, but regrettably I am still a borderline homophone.
  • M45 said:

    M45 said:

    I'm feeling festive


    Well, you have spoiled my mood. Now I am all tense, but actively hoping that my voice will be heard.
    Sounds like you're having an apophony
    Yes. I spend a fortune on diversity training, but regrettably I am still a borderline homophone.
    I love a bit of homophonic abuse

    Far cube itch
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,768
    WillG said:

    Nigelb said:

    The case for still betting on Trump (though I don’t really buy it).

    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/12/11/rnc-trump-mcdaniel-election-losses-00073343
    … “If you look at state party organizations, it’s the MAGA strain of Republicanism that’s become dominant,” Steele explained. “And they’re willing to change the rules, they’re willing to ignore an insurrection, refer to it as just ‘political discourse.’ All of that stuff coming out of the national party is a reflection of what’s happening inside the party across the states.”

    The post-midterm recriminations are a signal that dissent is growing, Steele said, but there’s little sign that it’s enough to loosen the former president’s hold on the party. He puts the odds that Trump is the party’s 2024 nominee at 80 percent. Which means that the Republican Party’s fortunes are still firmly tied to Trump, for better or for worse.

    “A party is not going to survive when it is fixated on the ramblings and musings of one person who, in the main, is not a Republican, is not a conservative, but has very effectively used both of those values to secure his political power,” Steele said. “And there have been a lot of people inside the party willing to compromise those values in order for him to do that.”…

    It is still going to be Trump. I don't think British people appreciate just how strong the "my team" vs "your team" mentality is in the US, especially among the white working class. Trump will fight harder than anyone else and unapologetically. The fact he isn't limited by acceptable political discourse is an asset for them.
    The fact that he's a crook might come into it.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,214
    ydoethur said:

    M45 said:

    https://twitter.com/DCBMEP/status/1601895861331664896

    David C Bannerman
    @DCBMEP
    Today we have launched CDO - the Conservative Democratic Organisation. We are not a new party but want a true party - a truly democratic Conservative Party that reflects its members’s views and treats them with more respect. Please see more on:

    https://www.conservativedems.co.uk/

    They seem to be antsy about membership not getting to vote for Sunak.

    They did.

    They proceeded to vote for somebody so unfit for office she lasted all of five weeks instead.

    As a result, next time they were told to stay out.

    Admittedly, it does look a bit like one of those EU referendums where they keep asking the question until they get the right answer. I suppose the only difference here was how imposingly Truss imploded.

    Bluntly, the whole saga suggested it was time for a rethink of the CPRB.
    Priti Patel seems to be backing this, looking at the website.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,632
    darkage said:

    ydoethur said:

    M45 said:

    https://twitter.com/DCBMEP/status/1601895861331664896

    David C Bannerman
    @DCBMEP
    Today we have launched CDO - the Conservative Democratic Organisation. We are not a new party but want a true party - a truly democratic Conservative Party that reflects its members’s views and treats them with more respect. Please see more on:

    https://www.conservativedems.co.uk/

    They seem to be antsy about membership not getting to vote for Sunak.

    They did.

    They proceeded to vote for somebody so unfit for office she lasted all of five weeks instead.

    As a result, next time they were told to stay out.

    Admittedly, it does look a bit like one of those EU referendums where they keep asking the question until they get the right answer. I suppose the only difference here was how imposingly Truss imploded.

    Bluntly, the whole saga suggested it was time for a rethink of the CPRB.
    Priti Patel seems to be backing this, looking at the website.
    Another good reason to think it's a bad idea.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    Those polling scores on the decision are pretty decent, like TSE I am pretty surprised at the apparent nuance shown by the public on the matter.

    I genuinely think the hysterical reaction to the decision, as if all green efforts are being undone, or those around the globe otherwise uninclined to do so will immediately cease any green efforts as a result, may have been counter productive. I'd hope people can see a lot of progress has been made, and while many want even more progress, overreaction to a single coal mine decision as sending a wrong 'signal' overreached.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,860
    Cyclefree said: "This mine is not a million miles from where I live."

    Which started me wondering what is a million miles from where she lives. At first, I thought only a few meteroids from time to time, but then I remembered this: https://www.space.com/news/live/james-webb-space-telescope-updates
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    Nigelb said:

    The case for still betting on Trump (though I don’t really buy it).

    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/12/11/rnc-trump-mcdaniel-election-losses-00073343
    … “If you look at state party organizations, it’s the MAGA strain of Republicanism that’s become dominant,” Steele explained. “And they’re willing to change the rules, they’re willing to ignore an insurrection, refer to it as just ‘political discourse.’ All of that stuff coming out of the national party is a reflection of what’s happening inside the party across the states.”

    The post-midterm recriminations are a signal that dissent is growing, Steele said, but there’s little sign that it’s enough to loosen the former president’s hold on the party. He puts the odds that Trump is the party’s 2024 nominee at 80 percent. Which means that the Republican Party’s fortunes are still firmly tied to Trump, for better or for worse.

    “A party is not going to survive when it is fixated on the ramblings and musings of one person who, in the main, is not a Republican, is not a conservative, but has very effectively used both of those values to secure his political power,” Steele said. “And there have been a lot of people inside the party willing to compromise those values in order for him to do that.”…

    I do buy it unfortunately, so am desperately waiting for something, anything, to definitively scupper his chances.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TimS said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    It’s about those Facebook nostalgia pages with post titles like “Do you remember real binmen?”

    Another good example of why it’s great Corbyn is no longer Labour leader.
    The ideological godhead of the tory party is now boomer Facebook memes.

    This coal mine is going to be the target of A LOT of direct action (hopefully violent) that may make its construction or operation unfeasible.
    I have no particular strong feelings for or against, but it doesn't strike me as a very viable prospect. The coal isn't wanted in the UK by the steel industry, so why would other countries steel industries be different?

    Protest will happen, but the real problems will be economic, the same reason our other deep mines closed.
    Sounds like a problem which will take care of itself then, hopefully we will be saved a bunch of attempted legal actions.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,683
    ydoethur said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    well, it seems to be getting people steamed up.
    I think that 34 percent are against something that will benefit our country, create jobs, and cut carbon, shows there's a mountain to climb in un-brainwashing people. The British public's blindness to its own good reminds me of Stockholm syndrome.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    TimS said:

    They’re playing cricket on Hilly Fields today.

    Proper 11 a side cricket involving 2 batsmen, a full field, overs, pads and an umpire. They’re changing ends at the end of each over and even doing that clappy shouting of half hearted encouragement between balls. Just missing a scorer.


    Legends.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    M45 said:

    https://twitter.com/DCBMEP/status/1601895861331664896

    David C Bannerman
    @DCBMEP
    Today we have launched CDO - the Conservative Democratic Organisation. We are not a new party but want a true party - a truly democratic Conservative Party that reflects its members’s views and treats them with more respect. Please see more on:

    https://www.conservativedems.co.uk/

    They seem to be antsy about membership not getting to vote for Sunak.

    It is interesting that parties did not used to give their members a vote for leader, and they had much larger memberships then who were presumably fine with it.

    Today's party members seem to want much more obvious privileges to come with their membership fees - it's not enough if they select candidates, most of the time, and have an outsized influence, they want MPs who do exactly what they as members want, and want to be consulted about everything, even the resolution of a leadership crisis which needed a quick reaction.

    It's partcularly interesting given there was a good case study of what happens when your prioritise pleasing members rather than the public, and ignoring MPs, just 3 years ago.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,683
    TimS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TimS said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    It’s about those Facebook nostalgia pages with post titles like “Do you remember real binmen?”

    Another good example of why it’s great Corbyn is no longer Labour leader.
    The ideological godhead of the tory party is now boomer Facebook memes.

    This coal mine is going to be the target of A LOT of direct action (hopefully violent) that may make its construction or operation unfeasible.
    It’ll never happen, and even if it did it’s unlikely to be financially viable. I mean what’s the UEL of a mine getting planning consent now in a world where almost all global steel makers are committed to net zero by 2040 or 2050?

    The post above making vague comments about racism illustrates the point perfectly. This is about the government looking for a political argument.
    Why shouldn't it be net zero? Carbon capture is already fairly advanced, and there's no reason to think it won't be even more advanced by 2040 let alone 2050. At any rate, the paradigm might shift completely by then - we may suddenly find we don't have enough carbon in the air for successful photosynthesis or similar.
  • M45M45 Posts: 216

    ydoethur said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    well, it seems to be getting people steamed up.
    I think that 34 percent are against something that will benefit our country, create jobs, and cut carbon, shows there's a mountain to climb in un-brainwashing people. The British public's blindness to its own good reminds me of Stockholm syndrome.
    It will create jobs, sure, but so doews digging holes and then filling them up again. Otherwise,

    'However, industry experts insisted that demand for the coal from UK and European steel makers was a myth that had been repeated for years. “The UK steel industry has been clear that the coal from the West Cumbria mine has limited potential due to its high sulphur levels,” said Chris McDonald, chief executive of the Materials Processing Institute, which serves as the UK’s national centre for steel research.

    “This, combined with the industry’s drive to decarbonise, means that by the time the mine opens, only one of the UK’s current four blast furnaces is likely to be able to use this coal, meaning that more than 90% of production will be exported. The situation is the same in Europe with even tighter sulphur controls and a faster drive to green steel, meaning that some companies will have moved away from coal completely by the mid 2030s.” '

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/11/new-cumbria-coalmine-backlash-grows-as-steel-industry-plays-down-demand

    The MPI is the real deal, not a crypto-woke Marxist cell, and speaks for the British steel industry.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977

    M45 said:

    Good God, a real this-changes-everything study

    Sleeping well at night means being in a better mood and happier during the day and vice versa, study finds

    https://www.psypost.org/2022/12/sleeping-well-at-night-means-being-in-a-better-mood-and-happier-during-the-day-and-vice-versa-study-finds-64484

    Is the Pope Catholic?
    Found a rather hilarious website on that subject.

    All of these events and more have led a crescendo of Catholics to wonder why Pope Francis has allowed heresy to flourish so much under his pontificate. This in turn has made not a few Catholics suspect that Francis is himself a heretic. But if Francis is a heretic, some uncomfortable questions follow.  

    The Nagging Question

    Is Francis really the pope? Can a heretic even be a pope? Those are the questions many Catholics are asking today, understandably. How could Our Lord allow the pope — His vicar! — to permit and possibly even embrace heresy and thus inflict so much damage on the Church? 

    Those who have come to the conclusion that Francis is not the pope generally fall into three camps:

    Pope Benedict XVI did not validly resign, so he is still pope.
    The election of Pope Francis was invalid for various reasons, so he was never elected pope, and there hasn’t been a pope since 2013.
    Francis was validly elected, but due to his embrace of heresy, he at some point lost the papal office, so there is currently no pope
    .

    https://onepeterfive.com/is-francis-the-pope/
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,119

    TimS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TimS said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    It’s about those Facebook nostalgia pages with post titles like “Do you remember real binmen?”

    Another good example of why it’s great Corbyn is no longer Labour leader.
    The ideological godhead of the tory party is now boomer Facebook memes.

    This coal mine is going to be the target of A LOT of direct action (hopefully violent) that may make its construction or operation unfeasible.
    It’ll never happen, and even if it did it’s unlikely to be financially viable. I mean what’s the UEL of a mine getting planning consent now in a world where almost all global steel makers are committed to net zero by 2040 or 2050?

    The post above making vague comments about racism illustrates the point perfectly. This is about the government looking for a political argument.
    Why shouldn't it be net zero? Carbon capture is already fairly advanced, and there's no reason to think it won't be even more advanced by 2040 let alone 2050. At any rate, the paradigm might shift completely by then - we may suddenly find we don't have enough carbon in the air for successful photosynthesis or similar.
    Given we have nearly twice the carbon in the air as pre Industrial Revolution I doubt we’re suddenly going to find ourselves short.

    Remember net zero refers to emissions not total ppm. CO2 levels will continue rising for years after the world gets to net zero. (And the world will keep warming for decades too: it’s like applying the brakes on a motorway. There’s a stopping distance to take account of).
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,683
    edited December 2022
    M45 said:

    ydoethur said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    well, it seems to be getting people steamed up.
    I think that 34 percent are against something that will benefit our country, create jobs, and cut carbon, shows there's a mountain to climb in un-brainwashing people. The British public's blindness to its own good reminds me of Stockholm syndrome.
    It will create jobs, sure, but so doews digging holes and then filling them up again. Otherwise,

    'However, industry experts insisted that demand for the coal from UK and European steel makers was a myth that had been repeated for years. “The UK steel industry has been clear that the coal from the West Cumbria mine has limited potential due to its high sulphur levels,” said Chris McDonald, chief executive of the Materials Processing Institute, which serves as the UK’s national centre for steel research.

    “This, combined with the industry’s drive to decarbonise, means that by the time the mine opens, only one of the UK’s current four blast furnaces is likely to be able to use this coal, meaning that more than 90% of production will be exported. The situation is the same in Europe with even tighter sulphur controls and a faster drive to green steel, meaning that some companies will have moved away from coal completely by the mid 2030s.” '

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/11/new-cumbria-coalmine-backlash-grows-as-steel-industry-plays-down-demand

    The MPI is the real deal, not a crypto-woke Marxist cell, and speaks for the British steel industry.
    Once again, as with fracking, this is not the Government investing public money in some sort of loony scheme, this is a private company, looking to invest, which deems that it can make money. All the Government has done is accept that the proposed scheme is not in breach of planning laws. That's it. I don't see what further argument there can be. I didn't on fracking; I don't on this. We made the wrong decision on that, which I hope to see reversed, the right one on this.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    edited December 2022
    Nigelb said:

    WillG said:

    Nigelb said:

    The case for still betting on Trump (though I don’t really buy it).

    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/12/11/rnc-trump-mcdaniel-election-losses-00073343
    … “If you look at state party organizations, it’s the MAGA strain of Republicanism that’s become dominant,” Steele explained. “And they’re willing to change the rules, they’re willing to ignore an insurrection, refer to it as just ‘political discourse.’ All of that stuff coming out of the national party is a reflection of what’s happening inside the party across the states.”

    The post-midterm recriminations are a signal that dissent is growing, Steele said, but there’s little sign that it’s enough to loosen the former president’s hold on the party. He puts the odds that Trump is the party’s 2024 nominee at 80 percent. Which means that the Republican Party’s fortunes are still firmly tied to Trump, for better or for worse.

    “A party is not going to survive when it is fixated on the ramblings and musings of one person who, in the main, is not a Republican, is not a conservative, but has very effectively used both of those values to secure his political power,” Steele said. “And there have been a lot of people inside the party willing to compromise those values in order for him to do that.”…

    It is still going to be Trump. I don't think British people appreciate just how strong the "my team" vs "your team" mentality is in the US, especially among the white working class. Trump will fight harder than anyone else and unapologetically. The fact he isn't limited by acceptable political discourse is an asset for them.
    The fact that he's a crook might come into it.
    It barely has so far. I get legal issues are complex, but they really should get a move on - there were plenty of non-Republicans even who seemed worried about Mar-a-Lago being raided because of how it might help him politically, and the unavoidable conclusion of some comments was that not only should a serving politician not be charged for crimes, but those running for office or previously having held office shouldn't either, as we must 'let the ballot box decide'.

    Obviously I cannot judge such a man objectively, but it seems like people should get tired of constantly having the personal shit of a candidate get in the way of any other political issues.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,643
    edited December 2022
    M45 said:

    https://twitter.com/DCBMEP/status/1601895861331664896

    David C Bannerman
    @DCBMEP
    Today we have launched CDO - the Conservative Democratic Organisation. We are not a new party but want a true party - a truly democratic Conservative Party that reflects its members’s views and treats them with more respect. Please see more on:

    https://www.conservativedems.co.uk/

    They seem to be antsy about membership not getting to vote for Sunak.

    I'm sure this isn't the first time the Conservatives have tried to become more internally democratic.

    They have four aims - one is to have a Party Chairman elected by the membership. Another is for the membership to take back control of the Party Conference (ask the other parties how well that works) but of most interest is Candidate Selection. I thought Conservative Constituency Associations were able to choose from any candidate on the Approved List and that was through interview and then a vote.

    I know in by elections candidates have been "imposed" by CCHQ but normally I thought Associations had a lot of latitude over candidate selection.
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792
    kle4 said:

    M45 said:

    Good God, a real this-changes-everything study

    Sleeping well at night means being in a better mood and happier during the day and vice versa, study finds

    https://www.psypost.org/2022/12/sleeping-well-at-night-means-being-in-a-better-mood-and-happier-during-the-day-and-vice-versa-study-finds-64484

    Is the Pope Catholic?
    Found a rather hilarious website on that subject.

    All of these events and more have led a crescendo of Catholics to wonder why Pope Francis has allowed heresy to flourish so much under his pontificate. This in turn has made not a few Catholics suspect that Francis is himself a heretic. But if Francis is a heretic, some uncomfortable questions follow.  

    The Nagging Question

    Is Francis really the pope? Can a heretic even be a pope? Those are the questions many Catholics are asking today, understandably. How could Our Lord allow the pope — His vicar! — to permit and possibly even embrace heresy and thus inflict so much damage on the Church? 

    Those who have come to the conclusion that Francis is not the pope generally fall into three camps:

    Pope Benedict XVI did not validly resign, so he is still pope.
    The election of Pope Francis was invalid for various reasons, so he was never elected pope, and there hasn’t been a pope since 2013.
    Francis was validly elected, but due to his embrace of heresy, he at some point lost the papal office, so there is currently no pope
    .

    https://onepeterfive.com/is-francis-the-pope/
    Sounds like some kid who likes going on the internet recently discovered sedevacantism.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    With party memberships an uncomfortable question for all of them is how many members they actually need, or want. Labour (and even more so the SNP probably) have lots of Members, which is presumably good for funding purposes but how usefully can they be utilised? I'm deeply skeptical that volunteers pounding the doorsteps is as useful as they think it is. and even if it is of some use that only makes up a fraction of the members. Even with the current increase in membership levels it is not mass membership, yet it acts like it is mass membership and it was only the leader ignoring them that saw them turn things around.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,860
    Off topic, but I think this will affect the odds in American elections:

    George Will thinks this lame duck session could do three good things in one bill:

    "President Barack Obama’s morally admirable but constitutionally dubious 2012 fiat (Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals) gave dreamers temporary but renewable legal status and work authorization. President Donald Trump rescinded DACA in 2017, calling it executive overreach, something he understood from indulging in it. Now, however, two senators, Thom Tillis (R-N.C.) and Kyrsten Sinema (I-Ariz.), propose legislation providing, inter alia, tens of billions of dollars for enhanced border security, and for prompt processing of asylum requests (most of which are denied). And, for dreamers, a 10-year — hardly hurried — path to citizenship."
    source$: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/12/11/pass-tillis-sinema-immigration-bill-dreamers/

    This obvious — and much-needed — compromise has been blocked by extremists on the left and right, and by two incompetent narcissists, Obama and Trump.

    Perhaps with them out of the way, Congress can finally do some right things.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,683
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TimS said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    It’s about those Facebook nostalgia pages with post titles like “Do you remember real binmen?”

    Another good example of why it’s great Corbyn is no longer Labour leader.
    The ideological godhead of the tory party is now boomer Facebook memes.

    This coal mine is going to be the target of A LOT of direct action (hopefully violent) that may make its construction or operation unfeasible.
    It’ll never happen, and even if it did it’s unlikely to be financially viable. I mean what’s the UEL of a mine getting planning consent now in a world where almost all global steel makers are committed to net zero by 2040 or 2050?

    The post above making vague comments about racism illustrates the point perfectly. This is about the government looking for a political argument.
    Why shouldn't it be net zero? Carbon capture is already fairly advanced, and there's no reason to think it won't be even more advanced by 2040 let alone 2050. At any rate, the paradigm might shift completely by then - we may suddenly find we don't have enough carbon in the air for successful photosynthesis or similar.
    Given we have nearly twice the carbon in the air as pre Industrial Revolution I doubt we’re suddenly going to find ourselves short.

    Remember net zero refers to emissions not total ppm. CO2 levels will continue rising for years after the world gets to net zero. (And the world will keep warming for decades too: it’s like applying the brakes on a motorway. There’s a stopping distance to take account of).
    Indeed, but how mobile is the carbon? Will Chinese crops grow better because they are belching out carbon, whilst ours weaken because we've 'successfully' mothballed all our carbon producing industry? Who knows - all I know is that it's foolish to assume that the mores of 20/30 years hence will be the same as today's.
  • ydoethur said:

    First?

    I demand a recount.
    I happen to be in the middle of a recount.

    Do be careful what you wish for!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,683

    M45 said:

    ydoethur said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    well, it seems to be getting people steamed up.
    I think that 34 percent are against something that will benefit our country, create jobs, and cut carbon, shows there's a mountain to climb in un-brainwashing people. The British public's blindness to its own good reminds me of Stockholm syndrome.
    It will create jobs, sure, but so doews digging holes and then filling them up again. Otherwise,

    'However, industry experts insisted that demand for the coal from UK and European steel makers was a myth that had been repeated for years. “The UK steel industry has been clear that the coal from the West Cumbria mine has limited potential due to its high sulphur levels,” said Chris McDonald, chief executive of the Materials Processing Institute, which serves as the UK’s national centre for steel research.

    “This, combined with the industry’s drive to decarbonise, means that by the time the mine opens, only one of the UK’s current four blast furnaces is likely to be able to use this coal, meaning that more than 90% of production will be exported. The situation is the same in Europe with even tighter sulphur controls and a faster drive to green steel, meaning that some companies will have moved away from coal completely by the mid 2030s.” '

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/11/new-cumbria-coalmine-backlash-grows-as-steel-industry-plays-down-demand

    The MPI is the real deal, not a crypto-woke Marxist cell, and speaks for the British steel industry.
    Once again, as with fracking, this is not the Government investing public money in some sort of loony scheme, this is a private company, looking to invest, which deems that it can make money. All the Government has done is accept that the proposed scheme is not in breach of planning laws. That's it. I don't see what further argument there can be. I didn't on fracking; I don't on this. We made the wrong decision on that, which I hope to see reversed, the right one on this.
    And furthermore, the MPI doesn't reveal its sources of funding on its website, but a quick Google reveals it is funded by Government grants, especially those pertaining to the Net Zero agenda. They don't speak for the industry, and I think they can be safely filed under 'blob'.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    DJ41 said:

    kle4 said:

    M45 said:

    Good God, a real this-changes-everything study

    Sleeping well at night means being in a better mood and happier during the day and vice versa, study finds

    https://www.psypost.org/2022/12/sleeping-well-at-night-means-being-in-a-better-mood-and-happier-during-the-day-and-vice-versa-study-finds-64484

    Is the Pope Catholic?
    Found a rather hilarious website on that subject.

    All of these events and more have led a crescendo of Catholics to wonder why Pope Francis has allowed heresy to flourish so much under his pontificate. This in turn has made not a few Catholics suspect that Francis is himself a heretic. But if Francis is a heretic, some uncomfortable questions follow.  

    The Nagging Question

    Is Francis really the pope? Can a heretic even be a pope? Those are the questions many Catholics are asking today, understandably. How could Our Lord allow the pope — His vicar! — to permit and possibly even embrace heresy and thus inflict so much damage on the Church? 

    Those who have come to the conclusion that Francis is not the pope generally fall into three camps:

    Pope Benedict XVI did not validly resign, so he is still pope.
    The election of Pope Francis was invalid for various reasons, so he was never elected pope, and there hasn’t been a pope since 2013.
    Francis was validly elected, but due to his embrace of heresy, he at some point lost the papal office, so there is currently no pope
    .

    https://onepeterfive.com/is-francis-the-pope/
    Sounds like some kid who likes going on the internet recently discovered sedevacantism.
    "As Bishop Athanasius Schneider points out, this question is unprecedented in the history of the Church. In fact, one of the reasons the office of the bishop of Rome grew to such magnificent stature in the first millennium is that it had a solid reputation for orthodoxy."

    I love how oblivious the writer is to the idea that what orthodoxy is was defined by what the church did in its first millenia rather than the other way round. Did they ever consider that the other churches mentioned think it's the Catholics that strayed?
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,214
    kle4 said:

    With party memberships an uncomfortable question for all of them is how many members they actually need, or want. Labour (and even more so the SNP probably) have lots of Members, which is presumably good for funding purposes but how usefully can they be utilised? I'm deeply skeptical that volunteers pounding the doorsteps is as useful as they think it is. and even if it is of some use that only makes up a fraction of the members. Even with the current increase in membership levels it is not mass membership, yet it acts like it is mass membership and it was only the leader ignoring them that saw them turn things around.

    In my experience the fundamental practical utility of members is to knock on doors to work out who is going to vote for you , then to get out the vote on election day, and also deliver leaflets. It isn't that much work just requires discipline and efficiency, although a lot of the time this is comically lacking, and participation levels amongst members are also very low.

    Everything else is ultimately of neutral, or possibly counterproductive, effect.

    Nigel Farage had worked it out with his pop-up 'Brexit' party; the members were reduced to props for photoshoots.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,695
    edited December 2022
    Just been catching up on the last couple of threads and people posting about their heating. Mine is set at 16 when I'm in and 12 when I'm out. I did have it set lower, but I started getting mould on the walls

    I've cleaned it all up, and it hasn't come back in the higher temperature. I know I could have got a dehumidifier, but I may as well have some warmth. Since I turned it up I've used more gas than the total I'd used since moving in at the beginning of May

    My total energy bill (including electric) has suddenly doubled because of it. I've refused to set up a direct debit because I don't have a smart meter to pay the exact amount each month (and they don't seem to be able to park near enough to me to install one) and I don't like their estimates, so I just make sure there's enough in my account to pay the bill

    Because of the government help my account is over £150 in credit, and I haven't made a payment since September - and that was only fifty quid

    My Mum has just given me an early Christmas present - six pairs of M&S Heatgen Maximum Thermal Heavyweight Long Socks

    I've put a pair on and they completely cover the calf. I'm so cosy below the knee now
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    WillG said:

    DJ41 said:

    kle4 said:

    M45 said:

    Good God, a real this-changes-everything study

    Sleeping well at night means being in a better mood and happier during the day and vice versa, study finds

    https://www.psypost.org/2022/12/sleeping-well-at-night-means-being-in-a-better-mood-and-happier-during-the-day-and-vice-versa-study-finds-64484

    Is the Pope Catholic?
    Found a rather hilarious website on that subject.

    All of these events and more have led a crescendo of Catholics to wonder why Pope Francis has allowed heresy to flourish so much under his pontificate. This in turn has made not a few Catholics suspect that Francis is himself a heretic. But if Francis is a heretic, some uncomfortable questions follow.  

    The Nagging Question

    Is Francis really the pope? Can a heretic even be a pope? Those are the questions many Catholics are asking today, understandably. How could Our Lord allow the pope — His vicar! — to permit and possibly even embrace heresy and thus inflict so much damage on the Church? 

    Those who have come to the conclusion that Francis is not the pope generally fall into three camps:

    Pope Benedict XVI did not validly resign, so he is still pope.
    The election of Pope Francis was invalid for various reasons, so he was never elected pope, and there hasn’t been a pope since 2013.
    Francis was validly elected, but due to his embrace of heresy, he at some point lost the papal office, so there is currently no pope
    .

    https://onepeterfive.com/is-francis-the-pope/
    Sounds like some kid who likes going on the internet recently discovered sedevacantism.
    "As Bishop Athanasius Schneider points out, this question is unprecedented in the history of the Church. In fact, one of the reasons the office of the bishop of Rome grew to such magnificent stature in the first millennium is that it had a solid reputation for orthodoxy."

    I love how oblivious the writer is to the idea that what orthodoxy is was defined by what the church did in its first millenia rather than the other way round. Did they ever consider that the other churches mentioned think it's the Catholics that strayed?
    I've admittedly only read one book on the history of the papacy, but the primacy of the bishops of the Rome seems to have been a bitter contest of wills indeed.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,330
    edited December 2022
    "disconcerted" or amused? I am certainly the latter.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,520
    edited December 2022
    DavidL said:

    "disconcerted" or amused? I am certainly the latter.

    As a South Yorkshire lad of the 1980s it is disconcerting.

    Sheffield city centre every Saturday we went shopping to Cole Brothers, in 1984 and 1985 every day there were protests saying the Tories wanted to close all the mines.

    That imprinted on me like water is wet.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,650
    edited December 2022
    darkage said:

    kle4 said:

    With party memberships an uncomfortable question for all of them is how many members they actually need, or want. Labour (and even more so the SNP probably) have lots of Members, which is presumably good for funding purposes but how usefully can they be utilised? I'm deeply skeptical that volunteers pounding the doorsteps is as useful as they think it is. and even if it is of some use that only makes up a fraction of the members. Even with the current increase in membership levels it is not mass membership, yet it acts like it is mass membership and it was only the leader ignoring them that saw them turn things around.

    In my experience the fundamental practical utility of members is to knock on doors to work out who is going to vote for you , then to get out the vote on election day, and also deliver leaflets. It isn't that much work just requires discipline and efficiency, although a lot of the time this is comically lacking, and participation levels amongst members are also very low.

    Everything else is ultimately of neutral, or possibly counterproductive, effect.

    Nigel Farage had worked it out with his pop-up 'Brexit' party; the members were reduced to props for photoshoots.
    And this is why UKIP never managed to get an MP elected (outside of Clacton) despite significant levels of support. They did not have the capabilities to campaign in a non PR based election.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977

    DavidL said:

    "disconcerted" or amused? I am certainly the latter.

    As a South Yorkshire lad of the 1980s it is disconcerting.

    Sheffield city centre every Saturday we went shopping to Cole Brothers, in 1984 and 1985 every day there were protests saying the Tories wanted to close all the mines.

    That imprinted on me like water is wet.
    People protested about coal at Coles?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,018
    So 56% of Conservatives and 52% of Leavers back opening the new coal mine, seems a good way for Rishi to shore up his core vote then
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    They are getting more realistic
    Changing expectations of result of next election in @ConHome
    Tory members surveys, via @PaulGoodmanCH
    https://conservativehome.com/2022/12/11/the


  • kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    "disconcerted" or amused? I am certainly the latter.

    As a South Yorkshire lad of the 1980s it is disconcerting.

    Sheffield city centre every Saturday we went shopping to Cole Brothers, in 1984 and 1985 every day there were protests saying the Tories wanted to close all the mines.

    That imprinted on me like water is wet.
    People protested about coal at Coles?
    Yes, it amused me.

    Here was the location.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barker's_Pool
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,119

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TimS said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    It’s about those Facebook nostalgia pages with post titles like “Do you remember real binmen?”

    Another good example of why it’s great Corbyn is no longer Labour leader.
    The ideological godhead of the tory party is now boomer Facebook memes.

    This coal mine is going to be the target of A LOT of direct action (hopefully violent) that may make its construction or operation unfeasible.
    It’ll never happen, and even if it did it’s unlikely to be financially viable. I mean what’s the UEL of a mine getting planning consent now in a world where almost all global steel makers are committed to net zero by 2040 or 2050?

    The post above making vague comments about racism illustrates the point perfectly. This is about the government looking for a political argument.
    Why shouldn't it be net zero? Carbon capture is already fairly advanced, and there's no reason to think it won't be even more advanced by 2040 let alone 2050. At any rate, the paradigm might shift completely by then - we may suddenly find we don't have enough carbon in the air for successful photosynthesis or similar.
    Given we have nearly twice the carbon in the air as pre Industrial Revolution I doubt we’re suddenly going to find ourselves short.

    Remember net zero refers to emissions not total ppm. CO2 levels will continue rising for years after the world gets to net zero. (And the world will keep warming for decades too: it’s like applying the brakes on a motorway. There’s a stopping distance to take account of).
    Indeed, but how mobile is the carbon? Will Chinese crops grow better because they are belching out carbon, whilst ours weaken because we've 'successfully' mothballed all our carbon producing industry? Who knows - all I know is that it's foolish to assume that the mores of 20/30 years hence will be the same as today's.
    The CO2 is very mobile and mixes out across the global atmosphere in a matter of months. By far the biggest short term variation is the annual cycle which shows up everywhere the atmosphere is measured (in Boreal summer the photosynthesis across the NH continents and oceans reduces the CO2 loading, and it then goes back up again in Boreal winter).

    Other forms of air pollution are more regional though and get rained out before they spread globally. Sulphur Dioxide being the most important as it cools regional climate by
    blocking sunlight - hence the so-called Asian brown cloud. Hence also the rapid warming in Europe and N America after we cleaned up our air. It’s also what leads to the formation of sulphuric acid in clouds which falls as acid
    rain.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,869
    kle4 said:

    They are getting more realistic
    Changing expectations of result of next election in @ConHome
    Tory members surveys, via @PaulGoodmanCH
    https://conservativehome.com/2022/12/11/the


    Disagree. Peak realisticness was in June.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,455

    HYUFD said:

    So 56% of Conservatives and 52% of Leavers back opening the new coal mine, seems a good way for Rishi to shore up his core vote then

    I think I might still have a couple of "Coal not Dole" badges I can lend to you, comrade.
    I look forward to HYUFD being stopped by the Metropolitan Police on the M1 and arrested when he gets bolshy and starts arguing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,018
    edited December 2022
    Opening the new coal mine most popular in the North where 36% back it, least popular in London where just 25% back it.

    So a good levelling up strategy with the high wage jobs it will create in Cumbria

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/12/08/b3d1a/1
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,632
    HYUFD said:

    Opening the new coal mine most popular in the North where 36% back it, least popular in London where just 25% back it

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/12/08/b3d1a/1

    London used to be in favour of mining, didn't it? Well, the Labour bits of it but that's pretty much all of it now.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,018
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Opening the new coal mine most popular in the North where 36% back it, least popular in London where just 25% back it

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/12/08/b3d1a/1

    London used to be in favour of mining, didn't it? Well, the Labour bits of it but that's pretty much all of it now.
    London voted for Thatcher in 1987 and 1983 while the North was solid Labour.

    Now Labour has a bigger lead over the Conservatives in London than the North
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,425
    Cyclefree said:

    This mine is not a million miles from where I live. I drove past the location a few weeks back in fact. It is in the industrial - now increasingly post-industrial - part of Cumbria that most tourists don't know about or visit. Sellafield is just down the road. There are proposals for undersea nuclear storage in the area. There is a tension between those wanting jobs for the area and those who think that the focus should be on green jobs. In fact, there are a lot of wind farms hereabouts - both on and offshore. So it is not either/or.

    The new Labour leader of what will become Cumberland County Council says that he will stop it. Trouble is the council is based in Carlisle and like its predecessor doesn't give a toss about this part of Cumberland. Its waste policies are so appalling that at one point it was responsible for creating a statutory nuisance in a Site of Special Scientific Interest in Haverigg. So I take its "green credentials" with a hefty dose of salt. Most of its staff responsible for services in the area have never even visited the areas they are responsible for.

    I don't know enough about the mine to express a view to be honest. I do know that those who say "no" to everything in areas like this need to come up with some realistic practical proposals for the area which are something more than "come here and buy some ice creams in the summer".

    Much of Green politics is performative - as valuable as Chief Superintendent Savage of the Met intoning “Lessons Will Be Learned” at a press conference after the latest fuck up. Some will feel better. Other will start their stop watches to the next press conference.

    The real questions here are -

    1) Is the coal actually going to be used for coking?
    2) The amount of carbon released vs using coal from another source.
    3) The amount of coal that will be produced before the steel industry stops using cooking coal. Most probably hydrogen based reduction is the replacement - but we will see.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,425
    edited December 2022

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TimS said:

    M45 said:

    I don't expect people are any clearer than I am, on the facts of this. Is it about Putin, or steel making, or heritage railways?

    It’s about those Facebook nostalgia pages with post titles like “Do you remember real binmen?”

    Another good example of why it’s great Corbyn is no longer Labour leader.
    The ideological godhead of the tory party is now boomer Facebook memes.

    This coal mine is going to be the target of A LOT of direct action (hopefully violent) that may make its construction or operation unfeasible.
    It’ll never happen, and even if it did it’s unlikely to be financially viable. I mean what’s the UEL of a mine getting planning consent now in a world where almost all global steel makers are committed to net zero by 2040 or 2050?

    The post above making vague comments about racism illustrates the point perfectly. This is about the government looking for a political argument.
    Why shouldn't it be net zero? Carbon capture is already fairly advanced, and there's no reason to think it won't be even more advanced by 2040 let alone 2050. At any rate, the paradigm might shift completely by then - we may suddenly find we don't have enough carbon in the air for successful photosynthesis or similar.
    Given we have nearly twice the carbon in the air as pre Industrial Revolution I doubt we’re suddenly going to find ourselves short.

    Remember net zero refers to emissions not total ppm. CO2 levels will continue rising for years after the world gets to net zero. (And the world will keep warming for decades too: it’s like applying the brakes on a motorway. There’s a stopping distance to take account of).
    Indeed, but how mobile is the carbon? Will Chinese crops grow better because they are belching out carbon, whilst ours weaken because we've 'successfully' mothballed all our carbon producing industry? Who knows - all I know is that it's foolish to assume that the mores of 20/30 years hence will be the same as today's.
    The “More carbon dioxide in the air makes the crops go better” isn’t backed by that wretched woke science* stuff. There were some experiments with using elevated CO2 levels in green houses etc a long while back - effects were often negative.

    CO2 spreads extremely rapidly though the atmosphere. The atmosphere is very active and mixing on a global scale is rapid - seem to recall weeks for pole to pole.

    So CO2 from China comes here very rapidly.

    *Also known as science that produces repeatable results.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,695
    edited December 2022
    On another topic from previous threads - favourite sporting events

    I haven't been to see many great ones live. Probably top of my list is having been at Wembley for the Euro 96 QF against Spain that we won on penalties

    The one I enjoyed most on TV was Ben Stokes on day four at Headingly in 2019. I think a ticket to that might have been the best value sporting entertainment for me of my life so far. I envy those lucky enough to have been there

    I asked my Dad about his favourite sporting event he'd attended and it was Desert Orchid winning the Gold Cup. He didn't even bet on him. It must be tough being a Spurs season ticket holder
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,683

    Cyclefree said:

    This mine is not a million miles from where I live. I drove past the location a few weeks back in fact. It is in the industrial - now increasingly post-industrial - part of Cumbria that most tourists don't know about or visit. Sellafield is just down the road. There are proposals for undersea nuclear storage in the area. There is a tension between those wanting jobs for the area and those who think that the focus should be on green jobs. In fact, there are a lot of wind farms hereabouts - both on and offshore. So it is not either/or.

    The new Labour leader of what will become Cumberland County Council says that he will stop it. Trouble is the council is based in Carlisle and like its predecessor doesn't give a toss about this part of Cumberland. Its waste policies are so appalling that at one point it was responsible for creating a statutory nuisance in a Site of Special Scientific Interest in Haverigg. So I take its "green credentials" with a hefty dose of salt. Most of its staff responsible for services in the area have never even visited the areas they are responsible for.

    I don't know enough about the mine to express a view to be honest. I do know that those who say "no" to everything in areas like this need to come up with some realistic practical proposals for the area which are something more than "come here and buy some ice creams in the summer".

    Much of Green politics is performative - as valuable as Chief Superintendent Savage of the Met intoning “Lessons Will Be Learned” at a press conference after the latest fuck up. Some will feel better. Other will start their stop watches to the next press conference.

    The real questions here are -

    1) Is the coal actually going to be used for coking?
    2) The amount of carbon released vs using coal from another source.
    3) The amount of coal that will be produced before the steel industry stops using cooking coal. Most probably hydrogen based reduction is the replacement - but we will see.
    It should also be used as a replacement for imported American timber in Drax. And we should build new clean coal power stations. Other countries would do this in a heartbeat. We have a profound, almost Orwellian dislike of things that advance the national interest that has all the hallmarks of a disease.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,455

    Cyclefree said:

    This mine is not a million miles from where I live. I drove past the location a few weeks back in fact. It is in the industrial - now increasingly post-industrial - part of Cumbria that most tourists don't know about or visit. Sellafield is just down the road. There are proposals for undersea nuclear storage in the area. There is a tension between those wanting jobs for the area and those who think that the focus should be on green jobs. In fact, there are a lot of wind farms hereabouts - both on and offshore. So it is not either/or.

    The new Labour leader of what will become Cumberland County Council says that he will stop it. Trouble is the council is based in Carlisle and like its predecessor doesn't give a toss about this part of Cumberland. Its waste policies are so appalling that at one point it was responsible for creating a statutory nuisance in a Site of Special Scientific Interest in Haverigg. So I take its "green credentials" with a hefty dose of salt. Most of its staff responsible for services in the area have never even visited the areas they are responsible for.

    I don't know enough about the mine to express a view to be honest. I do know that those who say "no" to everything in areas like this need to come up with some realistic practical proposals for the area which are something more than "come here and buy some ice creams in the summer".

    Much of Green politics is performative - as valuable as Chief Superintendent Savage of the Met intoning “Lessons Will Be Learned” at a press conference after the latest fuck up. Some will feel better. Other will start their stop watches to the next press conference.

    The real questions here are -

    1) Is the coal actually going to be used for coking?
    2) The amount of carbon released vs using coal from another source.
    3) The amount of coal that will be produced before the steel industry stops using cooking coal. Most probably hydrogen based reduction is the replacement - but we will see.
    It should also be used as a replacement for imported American timber in Drax. And we should build new clean coal power stations. Other countries would do this in a heartbeat. We have a profound, almost Orwellian dislike of things that advance the national interest that has all the hallmarks of a disease.
    I wonder if you have grasped the hang of this net zero business?

    Increasing fossil-C C02 in the air is not advancing the national interest, especially if it encouraged other states to do the same.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,330
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    So 56% of Conservatives and 52% of Leavers back opening the new coal mine, seems a good way for Rishi to shore up his core vote then

    I think I might still have a couple of "Coal not Dole" badges I can lend to you, comrade.
    I look forward to HYUFD being stopped by the Metropolitan Police on the M1 and arrested when he gets bolshy and starts arguing.
    Surely he will be in a tank, just in case.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,425
    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    This mine is not a million miles from where I live. I drove past the location a few weeks back in fact. It is in the industrial - now increasingly post-industrial - part of Cumbria that most tourists don't know about or visit. Sellafield is just down the road. There are proposals for undersea nuclear storage in the area. There is a tension between those wanting jobs for the area and those who think that the focus should be on green jobs. In fact, there are a lot of wind farms hereabouts - both on and offshore. So it is not either/or.

    The new Labour leader of what will become Cumberland County Council says that he will stop it. Trouble is the council is based in Carlisle and like its predecessor doesn't give a toss about this part of Cumberland. Its waste policies are so appalling that at one point it was responsible for creating a statutory nuisance in a Site of Special Scientific Interest in Haverigg. So I take its "green credentials" with a hefty dose of salt. Most of its staff responsible for services in the area have never even visited the areas they are responsible for.

    I don't know enough about the mine to express a view to be honest. I do know that those who say "no" to everything in areas like this need to come up with some realistic practical proposals for the area which are something more than "come here and buy some ice creams in the summer".

    Much of Green politics is performative - as valuable as Chief Superintendent Savage of the Met intoning “Lessons Will Be Learned” at a press conference after the latest fuck up. Some will feel better. Other will start their stop watches to the next press conference.

    The real questions here are -

    1) Is the coal actually going to be used for coking?
    2) The amount of carbon released vs using coal from another source.
    3) The amount of coal that will be produced before the steel industry stops using cooking coal. Most probably hydrogen based reduction is the replacement - but we will see.
    It should also be used as a replacement for imported American timber in Drax. And we should build new clean coal power stations. Other countries would do this in a heartbeat. We have a profound, almost Orwellian dislike of things that advance the national interest that has all the hallmarks of a disease.
    I wonder if you have grasped the hang of this net zero business?

    Increasing fossil-C C02 in the air is not advancing the national interest, especially if it encouraged other states to do the same.
    If carbon capture is such a wonderful technology - why hasn’t anyone demonstrated it at scale?

    Despite all the Republican politicians, in the US, funnelling money into “research”?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,528
    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    So 56% of Conservatives and 52% of Leavers back opening the new coal mine, seems a good way for Rishi to shore up his core vote then

    I think I might still have a couple of "Coal not Dole" badges I can lend to you, comrade.
    I look forward to HYUFD being stopped by the Metropolitan Police on the M1 and arrested when he gets bolshy and starts arguing.
    Surely he will be in a tank, just in case.
    But he'll fight the Nlaws and the Nlaws will win.

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,683
    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    This mine is not a million miles from where I live. I drove past the location a few weeks back in fact. It is in the industrial - now increasingly post-industrial - part of Cumbria that most tourists don't know about or visit. Sellafield is just down the road. There are proposals for undersea nuclear storage in the area. There is a tension between those wanting jobs for the area and those who think that the focus should be on green jobs. In fact, there are a lot of wind farms hereabouts - both on and offshore. So it is not either/or.

    The new Labour leader of what will become Cumberland County Council says that he will stop it. Trouble is the council is based in Carlisle and like its predecessor doesn't give a toss about this part of Cumberland. Its waste policies are so appalling that at one point it was responsible for creating a statutory nuisance in a Site of Special Scientific Interest in Haverigg. So I take its "green credentials" with a hefty dose of salt. Most of its staff responsible for services in the area have never even visited the areas they are responsible for.

    I don't know enough about the mine to express a view to be honest. I do know that those who say "no" to everything in areas like this need to come up with some realistic practical proposals for the area which are something more than "come here and buy some ice creams in the summer".

    Much of Green politics is performative - as valuable as Chief Superintendent Savage of the Met intoning “Lessons Will Be Learned” at a press conference after the latest fuck up. Some will feel better. Other will start their stop watches to the next press conference.

    The real questions here are -

    1) Is the coal actually going to be used for coking?
    2) The amount of carbon released vs using coal from another source.
    3) The amount of coal that will be produced before the steel industry stops using cooking coal. Most probably hydrogen based reduction is the replacement - but we will see.
    It should also be used as a replacement for imported American timber in Drax. And we should build new clean coal power stations. Other countries would do this in a heartbeat. We have a profound, almost Orwellian dislike of things that advance the national interest that has all the hallmarks of a disease.
    I wonder if you have grasped the hang of this net zero business?

    Increasing fossil-C C02 in the air is not advancing the national interest, especially if it encouraged other states to do the same.
    Who do you think is waiting for Britain to make it socially acceptable to burn coal? Everyone else is doing it already as and when they need to. America has 850 coal mines! The Germans are burning it like it's going out of fashion (or coming back into it). Carbon capture technology can be applied, and we need CO2 for the drinks industry in any case. These arguments are simply absurd.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,330
    edited December 2022

    On another topic from previous threads - favourite sporting events

    I haven't been to see many great ones live. Probably top of my list is having been at Wembley for the Euro 96 QF against Spain that we won on penalties

    The one I enjoyed most on TV was Ben Stokes on day four at Headingly in 2019. I think a ticket to that might have been the best value sporting entertainment for me of my life so far. I envy those lucky enough to have been there

    I asked my Dad about his favourite sporting event he'd attended and it was Desert Orchid winning the Gold Cup. He didn't even bet on him. It must be tough being a Spurs season ticket holder

    I think my very best was when England and India tied a ODI at Lords on Duckworth Lewis on 11th Sept 2011. It was easily the most brilliant day of cricket I have been at (although Broad skittling Australia at Nottingham was seriously close).
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,119

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    This mine is not a million miles from where I live. I drove past the location a few weeks back in fact. It is in the industrial - now increasingly post-industrial - part of Cumbria that most tourists don't know about or visit. Sellafield is just down the road. There are proposals for undersea nuclear storage in the area. There is a tension between those wanting jobs for the area and those who think that the focus should be on green jobs. In fact, there are a lot of wind farms hereabouts - both on and offshore. So it is not either/or.

    The new Labour leader of what will become Cumberland County Council says that he will stop it. Trouble is the council is based in Carlisle and like its predecessor doesn't give a toss about this part of Cumberland. Its waste policies are so appalling that at one point it was responsible for creating a statutory nuisance in a Site of Special Scientific Interest in Haverigg. So I take its "green credentials" with a hefty dose of salt. Most of its staff responsible for services in the area have never even visited the areas they are responsible for.

    I don't know enough about the mine to express a view to be honest. I do know that those who say "no" to everything in areas like this need to come up with some realistic practical proposals for the area which are something more than "come here and buy some ice creams in the summer".

    Much of Green politics is performative - as valuable as Chief Superintendent Savage of the Met intoning “Lessons Will Be Learned” at a press conference after the latest fuck up. Some will feel better. Other will start their stop watches to the next press conference.

    The real questions here are -

    1) Is the coal actually going to be used for coking?
    2) The amount of carbon released vs using coal from another source.
    3) The amount of coal that will be produced before the steel industry stops using cooking coal. Most probably hydrogen based reduction is the replacement - but we will see.
    It should also be used as a replacement for imported American timber in Drax. And we should build new clean coal power stations. Other countries would do this in a heartbeat. We have a profound, almost Orwellian dislike of things that advance the national interest that has all the hallmarks of a disease.
    I wonder if you have grasped the hang of this net zero business?

    Increasing fossil-C C02 in the air is not advancing the national interest, especially if it encouraged other states to do the same.
    If carbon capture is such a wonderful technology - why hasn’t anyone demonstrated it at scale?

    Despite all the Republican politicians, in the US, funnelling money into “research”?
    It does seem to be one of those things, like tidal or wave power, that is forever on the cusp of being rolled out at scale but never actually happens. I suspect the cost is greater than the financial benefit at the moment. A bit like grid level battery storage which is only advancing at a snail’s pace.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,455

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    This mine is not a million miles from where I live. I drove past the location a few weeks back in fact. It is in the industrial - now increasingly post-industrial - part of Cumbria that most tourists don't know about or visit. Sellafield is just down the road. There are proposals for undersea nuclear storage in the area. There is a tension between those wanting jobs for the area and those who think that the focus should be on green jobs. In fact, there are a lot of wind farms hereabouts - both on and offshore. So it is not either/or.

    The new Labour leader of what will become Cumberland County Council says that he will stop it. Trouble is the council is based in Carlisle and like its predecessor doesn't give a toss about this part of Cumberland. Its waste policies are so appalling that at one point it was responsible for creating a statutory nuisance in a Site of Special Scientific Interest in Haverigg. So I take its "green credentials" with a hefty dose of salt. Most of its staff responsible for services in the area have never even visited the areas they are responsible for.

    I don't know enough about the mine to express a view to be honest. I do know that those who say "no" to everything in areas like this need to come up with some realistic practical proposals for the area which are something more than "come here and buy some ice creams in the summer".

    Much of Green politics is performative - as valuable as Chief Superintendent Savage of the Met intoning “Lessons Will Be Learned” at a press conference after the latest fuck up. Some will feel better. Other will start their stop watches to the next press conference.

    The real questions here are -

    1) Is the coal actually going to be used for coking?
    2) The amount of carbon released vs using coal from another source.
    3) The amount of coal that will be produced before the steel industry stops using cooking coal. Most probably hydrogen based reduction is the replacement - but we will see.
    It should also be used as a replacement for imported American timber in Drax. And we should build new clean coal power stations. Other countries would do this in a heartbeat. We have a profound, almost Orwellian dislike of things that advance the national interest that has all the hallmarks of a disease.
    I wonder if you have grasped the hang of this net zero business?

    Increasing fossil-C C02 in the air is not advancing the national interest, especially if it encouraged other states to do the same.
    Who do you think is waiting for Britain to make it socially acceptable to burn coal? Everyone else is doing it already as and when they need to. America has 850 coal mines! The Germans are burning it like it's going out of fashion (or coming back into it). Carbon capture technology can be applied, and we need CO2 for the drinks industry in any case. These arguments are simply absurd.
    Underground mine with all the economics that implies? For a specialist form of coal not likely to be much needed? Fracking all over again. I wonder what the next Tory "battleground" will be? Harvesting Great Crested Newt eggs for incineration at Drax?



  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited December 2022
    Oh dear;

    @wmpolice

    We are currently at the scene of a serious incident at Babbs Mill Park, Fordbridge Road, #Kingshurst, #Solihull.

    A number of people have been pulled from a lake and are being transported to hospital. They are believed to be in a critical condition.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,869

    Cyclefree said:

    This mine is not a million miles from where I live. I drove past the location a few weeks back in fact. It is in the industrial - now increasingly post-industrial - part of Cumbria that most tourists don't know about or visit. Sellafield is just down the road. There are proposals for undersea nuclear storage in the area. There is a tension between those wanting jobs for the area and those who think that the focus should be on green jobs. In fact, there are a lot of wind farms hereabouts - both on and offshore. So it is not either/or.

    The new Labour leader of what will become Cumberland County Council says that he will stop it. Trouble is the council is based in Carlisle and like its predecessor doesn't give a toss about this part of Cumberland. Its waste policies are so appalling that at one point it was responsible for creating a statutory nuisance in a Site of Special Scientific Interest in Haverigg. So I take its "green credentials" with a hefty dose of salt. Most of its staff responsible for services in the area have never even visited the areas they are responsible for.

    I don't know enough about the mine to express a view to be honest. I do know that those who say "no" to everything in areas like this need to come up with some realistic practical proposals for the area which are something more than "come here and buy some ice creams in the summer".

    Much of Green politics is performative - as valuable as Chief Superintendent Savage of the Met intoning “Lessons Will Be Learned” at a press conference after the latest fuck up. Some will feel better. Other will start their stop watches to the next press conference.

    The real questions here are -

    1) Is the coal actually going to be used for coking?
    2) The amount of carbon released vs using coal from another source.
    3) The amount of coal that will be produced before the steel industry stops using cooking coal. Most probably hydrogen based reduction is the replacement - but we will see.
    It should also be used as a replacement for imported American timber in Drax. And we should build new clean coal power stations. Other countries would do this in a heartbeat. We have a profound, almost Orwellian dislike of things that advance the national interest that has all the hallmarks of a disease.
    Coking coal is different to thermal coal. You can't use it at Drax. You can use it at Scunthorpe.

    Funnily enough, Drax wanted to build a clean coal plant - White Rose. A certain George Osborne withdrew the £1 billion funding and killed the project overnight. Now they want to add carbon capture to their forest burners.
  • Has the world told Chile and Peru that they can get super-rich, but they'll probably have to move?

    The world needs their copper (unless there's cheap superconductor technology I'm not aware of) if we're going "green"

    I use the "s because extracting the copper we need from those countries will either involve huge local pollution from the by-products of the processes that leach copper from the ground, or global pollution from the other method that requires huge amounts of hydrocarbon burning

  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,172

    On another topic from previous threads - favourite sporting events

    I haven't been to see many great ones live. Probably top of my list is having been at Wembley for the Euro 96 QF against Spain that we won on penalties

    The one I enjoyed most on TV was Ben Stokes on day four at Headingly in 2019. I think a ticket to that might have been the best value sporting entertainment for me of my life so far. I envy those lucky enough to have been there

    I asked my Dad about his favourite sporting event he'd attended and it was Desert Orchid winning the Gold Cup. He didn't even bet on him. It must be tough being a Spurs season ticket holder

    On TV Ashes 2k5

    In real life, this Viv Richards ODI innings:
    https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/west-indies-tour-of-england-1984-61869/england-vs-west-indies-1st-odi-64976/full-scorecard

    From a betting / pinsticker pov, RWC 2003 final, where I put down 20-17 as the score prediction for the office sweep.
    (if you broke down that it would be a hard game with few tries, likely in the corners and possibly unconverted, and with a fairly typical number of kicks over the H for the time, it was a really good prediction but I don't think an outrageous one).
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,683
    edited December 2022
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    This mine is not a million miles from where I live. I drove past the location a few weeks back in fact. It is in the industrial - now increasingly post-industrial - part of Cumbria that most tourists don't know about or visit. Sellafield is just down the road. There are proposals for undersea nuclear storage in the area. There is a tension between those wanting jobs for the area and those who think that the focus should be on green jobs. In fact, there are a lot of wind farms hereabouts - both on and offshore. So it is not either/or.

    The new Labour leader of what will become Cumberland County Council says that he will stop it. Trouble is the council is based in Carlisle and like its predecessor doesn't give a toss about this part of Cumberland. Its waste policies are so appalling that at one point it was responsible for creating a statutory nuisance in a Site of Special Scientific Interest in Haverigg. So I take its "green credentials" with a hefty dose of salt. Most of its staff responsible for services in the area have never even visited the areas they are responsible for.

    I don't know enough about the mine to express a view to be honest. I do know that those who say "no" to everything in areas like this need to come up with some realistic practical proposals for the area which are something more than "come here and buy some ice creams in the summer".

    Much of Green politics is performative - as valuable as Chief Superintendent Savage of the Met intoning “Lessons Will Be Learned” at a press conference after the latest fuck up. Some will feel better. Other will start their stop watches to the next press conference.

    The real questions here are -

    1) Is the coal actually going to be used for coking?
    2) The amount of carbon released vs using coal from another source.
    3) The amount of coal that will be produced before the steel industry stops using cooking coal. Most probably hydrogen based reduction is the replacement - but we will see.
    It should also be used as a replacement for imported American timber in Drax. And we should build new clean coal power stations. Other countries would do this in a heartbeat. We have a profound, almost Orwellian dislike of things that advance the national interest that has all the hallmarks of a disease.
    I wonder if you have grasped the hang of this net zero business?

    Increasing fossil-C C02 in the air is not advancing the national interest, especially if it encouraged other states to do the same.
    Who do you think is waiting for Britain to make it socially acceptable to burn coal? Everyone else is doing it already as and when they need to. America has 850 coal mines! The Germans are burning it like it's going out of fashion (or coming back into it). Carbon capture technology can be applied, and we need CO2 for the drinks industry in any case. These arguments are simply absurd.
    Underground mine with all the economics that implies? For a specialist form of coal not likely to be much needed? Fracking all over again. I wonder what the next Tory "battleground" will be? Harvesting Great Crested Newt eggs for incineration at Drax?

    Yes, it is fracking all over again, and there, we heard a vast amount about the non-viability of UK fracked gas, but yet there was (and remains) an embargo. If it's not viable, let the market decide.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,869

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    This mine is not a million miles from where I live. I drove past the location a few weeks back in fact. It is in the industrial - now increasingly post-industrial - part of Cumbria that most tourists don't know about or visit. Sellafield is just down the road. There are proposals for undersea nuclear storage in the area. There is a tension between those wanting jobs for the area and those who think that the focus should be on green jobs. In fact, there are a lot of wind farms hereabouts - both on and offshore. So it is not either/or.

    The new Labour leader of what will become Cumberland County Council says that he will stop it. Trouble is the council is based in Carlisle and like its predecessor doesn't give a toss about this part of Cumberland. Its waste policies are so appalling that at one point it was responsible for creating a statutory nuisance in a Site of Special Scientific Interest in Haverigg. So I take its "green credentials" with a hefty dose of salt. Most of its staff responsible for services in the area have never even visited the areas they are responsible for.

    I don't know enough about the mine to express a view to be honest. I do know that those who say "no" to everything in areas like this need to come up with some realistic practical proposals for the area which are something more than "come here and buy some ice creams in the summer".

    Much of Green politics is performative - as valuable as Chief Superintendent Savage of the Met intoning “Lessons Will Be Learned” at a press conference after the latest fuck up. Some will feel better. Other will start their stop watches to the next press conference.

    The real questions here are -

    1) Is the coal actually going to be used for coking?
    2) The amount of carbon released vs using coal from another source.
    3) The amount of coal that will be produced before the steel industry stops using cooking coal. Most probably hydrogen based reduction is the replacement - but we will see.
    It should also be used as a replacement for imported American timber in Drax. And we should build new clean coal power stations. Other countries would do this in a heartbeat. We have a profound, almost Orwellian dislike of things that advance the national interest that has all the hallmarks of a disease.
    I wonder if you have grasped the hang of this net zero business?

    Increasing fossil-C C02 in the air is not advancing the national interest, especially if it encouraged other states to do the same.
    If carbon capture is such a wonderful technology - why hasn’t anyone demonstrated it at scale?

    Despite all the Republican politicians, in the US, funnelling money into “research”?
    It has been demonstrated at scale. Boundary Dam in Canada, 1 million tonnes per annum. Petra Nova in the USA, 1.4 mtpa.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,683

    Cyclefree said:

    This mine is not a million miles from where I live. I drove past the location a few weeks back in fact. It is in the industrial - now increasingly post-industrial - part of Cumbria that most tourists don't know about or visit. Sellafield is just down the road. There are proposals for undersea nuclear storage in the area. There is a tension between those wanting jobs for the area and those who think that the focus should be on green jobs. In fact, there are a lot of wind farms hereabouts - both on and offshore. So it is not either/or.

    The new Labour leader of what will become Cumberland County Council says that he will stop it. Trouble is the council is based in Carlisle and like its predecessor doesn't give a toss about this part of Cumberland. Its waste policies are so appalling that at one point it was responsible for creating a statutory nuisance in a Site of Special Scientific Interest in Haverigg. So I take its "green credentials" with a hefty dose of salt. Most of its staff responsible for services in the area have never even visited the areas they are responsible for.

    I don't know enough about the mine to express a view to be honest. I do know that those who say "no" to everything in areas like this need to come up with some realistic practical proposals for the area which are something more than "come here and buy some ice creams in the summer".

    Much of Green politics is performative - as valuable as Chief Superintendent Savage of the Met intoning “Lessons Will Be Learned” at a press conference after the latest fuck up. Some will feel better. Other will start their stop watches to the next press conference.

    The real questions here are -

    1) Is the coal actually going to be used for coking?
    2) The amount of carbon released vs using coal from another source.
    3) The amount of coal that will be produced before the steel industry stops using cooking coal. Most probably hydrogen based reduction is the replacement - but we will see.
    It should also be used as a replacement for imported American timber in Drax. And we should build new clean coal power stations. Other countries would do this in a heartbeat. We have a profound, almost Orwellian dislike of things that advance the national interest that has all the hallmarks of a disease.
    Coking coal is different to thermal coal. You can't use it at Drax. You can use it at Scunthorpe.

    Funnily enough, Drax wanted to build a clean coal plant - White Rose. A certain George Osborne withdrew the £1 billion funding and killed the project overnight. Now they want to add carbon capture to their forest burners.
    Ah Ok, thanks for the info. I thought it would burn whatever you chucked in. And yeh, Osborne. What can we say?
  • DavidL said:

    On another topic from previous threads - favourite sporting events

    I haven't been to see many great ones live. Probably top of my list is having been at Wembley for the Euro 96 QF against Spain that we won on penalties

    The one I enjoyed most on TV was Ben Stokes on day four at Headingly in 2019. I think a ticket to that might have been the best value sporting entertainment for me of my life so far. I envy those lucky enough to have been there

    I asked my Dad about his favourite sporting event he'd attended and it was Desert Orchid winning the Gold Cup. He didn't even bet on him. It must be tough being a Spurs season ticket holder

    I think my very best was when England and India tied a ODI at Lords on Duckworth Lewis on 11th Sept 2011. It was easily the most brilliant day of cricket I have been at (although Broad skittling Australia at Nottingham was seriously close).
    You were there for the 8 for 15?!

    Seriously jealous of that too, if so!
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,119

    Cyclefree said:

    This mine is not a million miles from where I live. I drove past the location a few weeks back in fact. It is in the industrial - now increasingly post-industrial - part of Cumbria that most tourists don't know about or visit. Sellafield is just down the road. There are proposals for undersea nuclear storage in the area. There is a tension between those wanting jobs for the area and those who think that the focus should be on green jobs. In fact, there are a lot of wind farms hereabouts - both on and offshore. So it is not either/or.

    The new Labour leader of what will become Cumberland County Council says that he will stop it. Trouble is the council is based in Carlisle and like its predecessor doesn't give a toss about this part of Cumberland. Its waste policies are so appalling that at one point it was responsible for creating a statutory nuisance in a Site of Special Scientific Interest in Haverigg. So I take its "green credentials" with a hefty dose of salt. Most of its staff responsible for services in the area have never even visited the areas they are responsible for.

    I don't know enough about the mine to express a view to be honest. I do know that those who say "no" to everything in areas like this need to come up with some realistic practical proposals for the area which are something more than "come here and buy some ice creams in the summer".

    Much of Green politics is performative - as valuable as Chief Superintendent Savage of the Met intoning “Lessons Will Be Learned” at a press conference after the latest fuck up. Some will feel better. Other will start their stop watches to the next press conference.

    The real questions here are -

    1) Is the coal actually going to be used for coking?
    2) The amount of carbon released vs using coal from another source.
    3) The amount of coal that will be produced before the steel industry stops using cooking coal. Most probably hydrogen based reduction is the replacement - but we will see.
    It should also be used as a replacement for imported American timber in Drax. And we should build new clean coal power stations. Other countries would do this in a heartbeat. We have a profound, almost Orwellian dislike of things that advance the national interest that has all the hallmarks of a disease.
    Coking coal is different to thermal coal. You can't use it at Drax. You can use it at Scunthorpe.

    Funnily enough, Drax wanted to build a clean coal plant - White Rose. A certain George Osborne withdrew the £1 billion funding and killed the project overnight. Now they want to add carbon capture to their forest burners.
    Moreover coal is almost impossible to finance on the debt or equity markets now unless heavily hidden at below 15% of a borrower’s an asset portfolio (and even then tricky). That will continue to tighten.

    In transfer pricing we now add a risk premium to any benchmarking of fossil-fuel heavy asset returns, let alone the single least loved asset of them all.

    Global capital has decided time is up for coal - thermal coal first and met coal in short order. I’m not sure that’s really sunk in with the general public yet.

    Fracked gas on the other hand: still plenty of demand and finance available.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,500
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    This mine is not a million miles from where I live. I drove past the location a few weeks back in fact. It is in the industrial - now increasingly post-industrial - part of Cumbria that most tourists don't know about or visit. Sellafield is just down the road. There are proposals for undersea nuclear storage in the area. There is a tension between those wanting jobs for the area and those who think that the focus should be on green jobs. In fact, there are a lot of wind farms hereabouts - both on and offshore. So it is not either/or.

    The new Labour leader of what will become Cumberland County Council says that he will stop it. Trouble is the council is based in Carlisle and like its predecessor doesn't give a toss about this part of Cumberland. Its waste policies are so appalling that at one point it was responsible for creating a statutory nuisance in a Site of Special Scientific Interest in Haverigg. So I take its "green credentials" with a hefty dose of salt. Most of its staff responsible for services in the area have never even visited the areas they are responsible for.

    I don't know enough about the mine to express a view to be honest. I do know that those who say "no" to everything in areas like this need to come up with some realistic practical proposals for the area which are something more than "come here and buy some ice creams in the summer".

    Much of Green politics is performative - as valuable as Chief Superintendent Savage of the Met intoning “Lessons Will Be Learned” at a press conference after the latest fuck up. Some will feel better. Other will start their stop watches to the next press conference.

    The real questions here are -

    1) Is the coal actually going to be used for coking?
    2) The amount of carbon released vs using coal from another source.
    3) The amount of coal that will be produced before the steel industry stops using cooking coal. Most probably hydrogen based reduction is the replacement - but we will see.
    It should also be used as a replacement for imported American timber in Drax. And we should build new clean coal power stations. Other countries would do this in a heartbeat. We have a profound, almost Orwellian dislike of things that advance the national interest that has all the hallmarks of a disease.
    I wonder if you have grasped the hang of this net zero business?

    Increasing fossil-C C02 in the air is not advancing the national interest, especially if it encouraged other states to do the same.
    Who do you think is waiting for Britain to make it socially acceptable to burn coal? Everyone else is doing it already as and when they need to. America has 850 coal mines! The Germans are burning it like it's going out of fashion (or coming back into it). Carbon capture technology can be applied, and we need CO2 for the drinks industry in any case. These arguments are simply absurd.
    Underground mine with all the economics that implies? For a specialist form of coal not likely to be much needed? Fracking all over again. I wonder what the next Tory "battleground" will be? Harvesting Great Crested Newt eggs for incineration at Drax?



    Hard to have a mine that isn't underground.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,869
    ping said:

    Oh dear;

    @wmpolice

    We are currently at the scene of a serious incident at Babbs Mill Park, Fordbridge Road, #Kingshurst, #Solihull.

    A number of people have been pulled from a lake and are being transported to hospital. They are believed to be in a critical condition.

    I used to live just by there, over 30 years ago.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,534

    Has the world told Chile and Peru that they can get super-rich, but they'll probably have to move?

    The world needs their copper (unless there's cheap superconductor technology I'm not aware of) if we're going "green"

    I use the "s because extracting the copper we need from those countries will either involve huge local pollution from the by-products of the processes that leach copper from the ground, or global pollution from the other method that requires huge amounts of hydrocarbon burning

    I seem to remember reading that the EU was making a lot of effort to grab the Lithium from Chile. Bit of a race with China as to who can sign on the dotted line first.
This discussion has been closed.