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The US pollster who helped make Cameron on the Midterms – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited November 14 in General
The US pollster who helped make Cameron on the Midterms – politicalbetting.com

Luntz first came to notice in the UK, and on PB, with his focus groups on the 2005 Tory leadership contest that was featured on Newsnight. My view at the time was that it was Luntz who helped ensure that Cameron was able to beat David Davis who was the favourite.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 17,624
    First?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,101
    "How did Twitter die?" Hemingway asked.

    "Two ways," the engineer said. "Gradually, then suddenly."

    https://twitter.com/evacide/status/1592265221816877056
  • sladeslade Posts: 1,607
    NZ women beat England in the Rugby League World cup semi-finals. The player of the game was Mele Hufanga - a 15 stone man on all evidence.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 44,981
    kyf_100 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    "How did Twitter die?" Hemingway asked.

    "Two ways," the engineer said. "Gradually, then suddenly."

    https://twitter.com/evacide/status/1592265221816877056

    You fail to see the irony in a) this being posted on twitter and b) reposted by you here?
    Twitter isn’t going to die.
    But it might go bust.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,101
    Running 94 election deniers nationwide and only netting 5 new wins, all in deep red states (AL, ID, IN, KS, and WY,) is basically a 5% success rate.

    AKA a 95% failure rate.

    (data from @statesunited)
    https://time.com/6231852/election-deniers-2022-midterms-results/
  • Nigelb said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    "How did Twitter die?" Hemingway asked.

    "Two ways," the engineer said. "Gradually, then suddenly."

    https://twitter.com/evacide/status/1592265221816877056

    You fail to see the irony in a) this being posted on twitter and b) reposted by you here?
    Twitter isn’t going to die.
    But it might go bust.
    Twitter is clearly going to die.

    And here is 967 Tweets by Scott to say why.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,101
    The City’s financial dominance has survived:

    Catastrophic defeat in N America & loss of the 13 colonies

    Napoleon’s gigantic continental blockade

    The collapse of the empire

    Many of its buildings being literally destroyed in WW2

    Now here we are

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63623502
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,412
    slade said:

    NZ women beat England in the Rugby League World cup semi-finals. The player of the game was Mele Hufanga - a 15 stone man on all evidence.

    Having googled I can see why you say that! Reminds me of the day my wife shouted ‘there’s a man winning the womens 800m’. It was poor Caster Semanya.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 19,930
    Cameron won the 2005 contest because he walked around on the stage, whereas Davies stood behind a lectern. A pretty silly reason to win, really.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,229
    Nigelb said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    "How did Twitter die?" Hemingway asked.

    "Two ways," the engineer said. "Gradually, then suddenly."

    https://twitter.com/evacide/status/1592265221816877056

    You fail to see the irony in a) this being posted on twitter and b) reposted by you here?
    Twitter isn’t going to die.
    But it might go bust.
    Too many people appear to find twitter useful, so I also don't think it will die. But what will happen if it goes bust?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,363
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    "How did Twitter die?" Hemingway asked.

    "Two ways," the engineer said. "Gradually, then suddenly."

    https://twitter.com/evacide/status/1592265221816877056

    You fail to see the irony in a) this being posted on twitter and b) reposted by you here?
    Twitter isn’t going to die.
    But it might go bust.
    Too many people appear to find twitter useful, so I also don't think it will die. But what will happen if it goes bust?
    It will get new owners, who buy it out of Chapter 11.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,229
    edited November 14
    Fair play to Luntz for facing up to getting it wrong, and thinking about why.

    Of course, people are often really good at realising what they got wrong in their analysis afterwards.

    Is he right independents broke 50/50?
  • Scott_xP said:

    The City’s financial dominance has survived:

    Catastrophic defeat in N America & loss of the 13 colonies

    Napoleon’s gigantic continental blockade

    The collapse of the empire

    Many of its buildings being literally destroyed in WW2

    Now here we are

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63623502

    Not certain what France's luxury goods stocks going up thanks to the situation in China has to do with the price of fish.

    But the City isn't the Stock Market and the FTSE has had its problems for a very long time.

    Recently when comparing house price changes I posted this:

    At the end of 1999 the FTSE 100 was 6930 and the average house price in England was £75k
    Today [26 October] the FTSE 100 is 6996 and according to the ONS the average house price reached £292k in July.


    This isn't Brexit, this is the UK's economy being greatly unbalanced which has continued for decades now.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 44,981
    … My view at the time was that it was Luntz who helped ensure that Cameron was able to beat David Davis who was the favourite….

    I think you’re right. But I think perhaps that’s only because we were naive back then about how manipulative a ‘focus group’ is.

    Luntz isn’t an idiot, but neither is he quite the guru he is sometimes made out to be.

    And his “Words that Work” was a deeply cynical and rather toxic book.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,408
    Nigelb said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    "How did Twitter die?" Hemingway asked.

    "Two ways," the engineer said. "Gradually, then suddenly."

    https://twitter.com/evacide/status/1592265221816877056

    You fail to see the irony in a) this being posted on twitter and b) reposted by you here?
    Twitter isn’t going to die.
    But it might go bust.
    Wouldn't they just get bought by somebody else at a vastly reduced price before that happened? Bozos. The Saudis. Some Chinese guy that everyone on here will pretend they had already heard of.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Cameron won the 2005 contest because he walked around on the stage, whereas Davies stood behind a lectern. A pretty silly reason to win, really.

    What rot, Dave won for other reasons.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,160
    Nigelb said:

    … My view at the time was that it was Luntz who helped ensure that Cameron was able to beat David Davis who was the favourite….

    I think you’re right. But I think perhaps that’s only because we were naive back then about how manipulative a ‘focus group’ is.

    Luntz isn’t an idiot, but neither is he quite the guru he is sometimes made out to be.

    And his “Words that Work” was a deeply cynical and rather toxic book.

    He’s got quite a lot wrong in recent times - didn’t he call the 2016 election for Hillary?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,229
    @5:34 is pretty funny when they ask Lumtz how to fix the polling and he tells them they spend way too much time focused on who's going to win and lose and trying to predict that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 44,981
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    "How did Twitter die?" Hemingway asked.

    "Two ways," the engineer said. "Gradually, then suddenly."

    https://twitter.com/evacide/status/1592265221816877056

    You fail to see the irony in a) this being posted on twitter and b) reposted by you here?
    Twitter isn’t going to die.
    But it might go bust.
    Too many people appear to find twitter useful, so I also don't think it will die. But what will happen if it goes bust?
    Chapter 11, and likely a new CEO.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,229
    Andy_JS said:

    Cameron won the 2005 contest because he walked around on the stage, whereas Davies stood behind a lectern. A pretty silly reason to win, really.

    If it sounds like a silly reason, then it probably isn't the actual reason.

    That'd be like saying Miliband lost because he tripped on the QT stage.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,160
    PB is a major threat to Twitter.

    After all, given Scott, Leon and Carlotta conspire to regurgitate its entire output on here, why bother visiting Twitter at all?
  • Andy_JS said:

    Cameron won the 2005 contest because he walked around on the stage, whereas Davies stood behind a lectern. A pretty silly reason to win, really.

    What rot, Dave won for other reasons.
    Not putting his female supporters in "it's DD for me" T-shirts, for a start.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Cameron won the 2005 contest because he walked around on the stage, whereas Davies stood behind a lectern. A pretty silly reason to win, really.

    What rot, Dave won for other reasons.
    Not putting his female supporters in "it's DD for me" T-shirts, for a start.
    People have always had huge doubts about David Davis, that's why he didn't get the coronation in 2003, those doubts became realised with his vanity by election.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,471

    Andy_JS said:

    Cameron won the 2005 contest because he walked around on the stage, whereas Davies stood behind a lectern. A pretty silly reason to win, really.

    What rot, Dave won for other reasons.
    Not putting his female supporters in "it's DD for me" T-shirts, for a start.
    Well of course - his would have been 'DC for me' t-shirts.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,891

    Andy_JS said:

    Cameron won the 2005 contest because he walked around on the stage, whereas Davies stood behind a lectern. A pretty silly reason to win, really.

    What rot, Dave won for other reasons.
    Not putting his female supporters in "it's DD for me" T-shirts, for a start.
    Well of course - his would have been 'DC for me' t-shirts.
    AC surely?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 44,981
    Fulton County, Georgia’s Trump Investigation
    An analysis of the reported facts and applicable law: Second edition
    https://www.brookings.edu/research/second-edition-fulton-county-georgias-trump-investigation/
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,471

    Andy_JS said:

    Cameron won the 2005 contest because he walked around on the stage, whereas Davies stood behind a lectern. A pretty silly reason to win, really.

    What rot, Dave won for other reasons.
    Not putting his female supporters in "it's DD for me" T-shirts, for a start.
    People have always had huge doubts about David Davis, that's why he didn't get the coronation in 2003, those doubts became realised with his vanity by election.
    He fluffed his big speech. There was no flow, and he was a bit queasy and sweaty-browed, like he'd had a bad curry. By contrast, Cameron shone. I think DD was done from that point.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Cameron won the 2005 contest because he walked around on the stage, whereas Davies stood behind a lectern. A pretty silly reason to win, really.

    What rot, Dave won for other reasons.
    Not putting his female supporters in "it's DD for me" T-shirts, for a start.
    People have always had huge doubts about David Davis, that's why he didn't get the coronation in 2003, those doubts became realised with his vanity by election.
    The Cameron man-love is strong with this one!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,101
    EXCL: Dominic Raab was warned about his behaviour towards officials by Foreign Office’s top civil servant, who then informally reported concerns to Cabinet Office chiefs.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/14/dominic-raab-was-warned-about-his-behaviour-by-top-foreign-office-official?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,582
    Andy_JS said:

    Cameron won the 2005 contest because he walked around on the stage, whereas Davies stood behind a lectern. A pretty silly reason to win, really.

    If that had been the only reason, Malcolm Rifkind would have won.
  • Nigelb said:

    … My view at the time was that it was Luntz who helped ensure that Cameron was able to beat David Davis who was the favourite….

    I think you’re right. But I think perhaps that’s only because we were naive back then about how manipulative a ‘focus group’ is.

    Luntz isn’t an idiot, but neither is he quite the guru he is sometimes made out to be.

    And his “Words that Work” was a deeply cynical and rather toxic book.

    He’s got quite a lot wrong in recent times - didn’t he call the 2016 election for Hillary?
    Well she did win the Popular Vote.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,229
    Nigelb said:

    Fulton County, Georgia’s Trump Investigation
    An analysis of the reported facts and applicable law: Second edition
    https://www.brookings.edu/research/second-edition-fulton-county-georgias-trump-investigation/

    Because of the potentially criminal nature of some of Trump’s conduct, on February 10, 2021, Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis announced a criminal investigation into the activities of the former president and his allies. She has said charging decisions may come as soon as November or December 2022.

    Bloody lawyers, not only election count staff who go slow.

    Even if he did not literally mean Raffensperger should 'find' additional votes, a candidate vocally badgering the top election officials for an hour or more in an effort to sway them to take actions he wanted? The list of potential defenses he may use if charge are pretty eye opening too - including his 'outreach' to officials being first amendment protected.

    I feel like he uses this one a lot as well, damn intent.

    that he lacked the intent to commit wrongdoing because he genuinely believed he had won the election
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,160

    Nigelb said:

    … My view at the time was that it was Luntz who helped ensure that Cameron was able to beat David Davis who was the favourite….

    I think you’re right. But I think perhaps that’s only because we were naive back then about how manipulative a ‘focus group’ is.

    Luntz isn’t an idiot, but neither is he quite the guru he is sometimes made out to be.

    And his “Words that Work” was a deeply cynical and rather toxic book.

    He’s got quite a lot wrong in recent times - didn’t he call the 2016 election for Hillary?
    Well she did win the Popular Vote.
    That is true, but he was calling the Electoral College as I remember it (I might be wrong).

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,874

    Andy_JS said:

    Cameron won the 2005 contest because he walked around on the stage, whereas Davies stood behind a lectern. A pretty silly reason to win, really.

    What rot, Dave won for other reasons.
    Not putting his female supporters in "it's DD for me" T-shirts, for a start.
    People have always had huge doubts about David Davis, that's why he didn't get the coronation in 2003, those doubts became realised with his vanity by election.
    He fluffed his big speech. There was no flow, and he was a bit queasy and sweaty-browed, like he'd had a bad curry. By contrast, Cameron shone. I think DD was done from that point.
    The Tories would still probably have won most seats under Davis in 2010.

    Just Clegg may well have formed a government with Labour not the Tories as he did with Cameron
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,160

    Andy_JS said:

    Cameron won the 2005 contest because he walked around on the stage, whereas Davies stood behind a lectern. A pretty silly reason to win, really.

    What rot, Dave won for other reasons.
    Not putting his female supporters in "it's DD for me" T-shirts, for a start.
    Well of course - his would have been 'DC for me' t-shirts.
    ….
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,101
    At the minimum, could political damage in rural areas for the Conservatives, at an already difficult time in the polls, tempt them to try to renegotiate this Oz trade deal to get better terms for farmers? Seems unlikely for now, but depends on farmers reaction. There is a pathway

    PM has already said that Truss deal was rushed and one-sided, and didnt benefit farmers… could he not ask the new Australian PM to reopen it a bit and tweak the TRQs etc? As it happens they are about to meet at the G20. again seems unlikely, but not unthinkable…

    And if Sunak doesn’t do it, then surely is an open goal for the Opposition, seeking a hearing in rural areas, saying they would be willing to walk away from what the PM himself suggested was a “rushed one-sided deal” & offering a renegotiation with Labour colleagues in Canberra?


    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1592274002134769664
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 44,981
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    "How did Twitter die?" Hemingway asked.

    "Two ways," the engineer said. "Gradually, then suddenly."

    https://twitter.com/evacide/status/1592265221816877056

    You fail to see the irony in a) this being posted on twitter and b) reposted by you here?
    Twitter isn’t going to die.
    But it might go bust.
    Wouldn't they just get bought by somebody else at a vastly reduced price before that happened? Bozos. The Saudis. Some Chinese guy that everyone on here will pretend they had already heard of.
    Creditors will decide; basically the banks. They’ll effectively own it at that point.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/elon-musks-twitter-deal-is-different-than-most-lbos-heres-how/2022/11/12/7c671b64-62b9-11ed-a131-e900e4a6336b_story.html
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 44,981
    This is horrifying. The Iranian parliament votes overwhelmingly (227-63) to execute the 15,000 protesters they already arrested.

    These were peaceful protestors simply seeking the right to basic justice and autonomy. Unacceptable and barbaric.

    https://twitter.com/QasimRashid/status/1592173879493120001
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 1,834
    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    "How did Twitter die?" Hemingway asked.

    "Two ways," the engineer said. "Gradually, then suddenly."

    https://twitter.com/evacide/status/1592265221816877056

    You fail to see the irony in a) this being posted on twitter and b) reposted by you here?
    Twitter isn’t going to die.
    But it might go bust.
    Too many people appear to find twitter useful, so I also don't think it will die. But what will happen if it goes bust?
    Chapter 11, and likely a new CEO.
    It will be bought by Mark Zuckerberg and absorbed into his current empire to create an all-embracing social network known as Twitface.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,412
    Nigelb said:

    This is horrifying. The Iranian parliament votes overwhelmingly (227-63) to execute the 15,000 protesters they already arrested.

    These were peaceful protestors simply seeking the right to basic justice and autonomy. Unacceptable and barbaric.

    https://twitter.com/QasimRashid/status/1592173879493120001

    Are we really going to play them in the WC next monday? Time for a stand and refuse to play.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,100
    I've always thought it was more about Davis than Cameron. It was always a mystery to me why he was such a big favourite at the time. He was a fairly unknown junior minister in the Major government and his campaign for leader in 2001 was only memorable for the joint last vote. I can't remember him making much impact as a shadow minister under IDS/Howard. In such circumstances the unknown is more appealing.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,469
    edited November 14
    Scott_xP said:

    The City’s financial dominance has survived:

    Catastrophic defeat in N America & loss of the 13 colonies

    Napoleon’s gigantic continental blockade

    The collapse of the empire

    Many of its buildings being literally destroyed in WW2

    Now here we are

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63623502

    Aaand the City will likely survive Brexit, and prosper as it has done after all these events. It's been around for 400 years, after all

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,471
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cameron won the 2005 contest because he walked around on the stage, whereas Davies stood behind a lectern. A pretty silly reason to win, really.

    What rot, Dave won for other reasons.
    Not putting his female supporters in "it's DD for me" T-shirts, for a start.
    People have always had huge doubts about David Davis, that's why he didn't get the coronation in 2003, those doubts became realised with his vanity by election.
    He fluffed his big speech. There was no flow, and he was a bit queasy and sweaty-browed, like he'd had a bad curry. By contrast, Cameron shone. I think DD was done from that point.
    The Tories would still probably have won most seats under Davis in 2010.

    Just Clegg may well have formed a government with Labour not the Tories as he did with Cameron
    I'd have preferred him to Cameron, but the fact is, he didn't come through on the big occasion.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,101
    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,101
    Guardian front page, Tuesday 15 November 2022: Tory councils warn Sunak on stark risk of bankruptcy https://twitter.com/guardiannews/status/1592277329975599106/photo/1
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,469
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,093
    Why is the counting so slow in California?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,229
    Scott_xP said:

    Guardian front page, Tuesday 15 November 2022: Tory councils warn Sunak on stark risk of bankruptcy https://twitter.com/guardiannews/status/1592277329975599106/photo/1

    I'm amazed we haven't had more of that already. Local Government by and large achieved a lot of cuts, and adult social care makes up the bulk of what a lot of them spend.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,229
    edited November 14

    As far as I can tell California has counted fuck all votes over the last 24 hours.

    Maybe they've all gone surfing instead.

    My guess is most counties are not scheduled to release more results until later in the afternoon-evening local time, which is now 12.30pm Pacific.

    That's what's happening today in Washington State today, in counties that did NOT hit bottom last week or over the weekend.

    For example, based on what I'm seeing on their webcams, King Co Elections is currently busting their hump processing and scanning ballots prior to scheduled 4pm Pacific (12 midnight UK) report.

    https://kingcounty.gov/depts/elections/about-us/security-and-accountability/watch-us-in-action.aspx
    "Busting their hump processing"

    I literally have no idea what that means. It must be a fancy American term for fucking about.

    Can you please tell your compatriots to stop taking fannying around to a new art form and count the fucking votes?
    "busting a hump" = working hard

    Sorry, but speedy clearing of your election bets is NOT a priority.

    Though why California IS so sloooooow is a puzzle. They have valid votes still arriving BUT so do OR and WA.
    Could there not just be a cut-off point that votes have to be in with enough time to count them at the same time that everyone else's votes get counted? The system is farcical. When Nigel Farage stood in Thanet South, some boxes of votes went missing for a period of mere hours, leading to accusations that the vote was rigged to keep him out of the Commons. That was a few hours. Your system by contrast is so open to abuse that even I could probably rig it if I felt so inclined.
    A quite google shows this from California, which is ridiculously generous if true.

    How long after Election Day will ballots still count if postmarked by Election Day?

    California has extended the time that vote-by-mail ballots can arrive to county elections offices for this election. Vote-by-mail ballots postmarked on or before Election Day can arrive up to 17 days after Election Day and be counted.


    https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voter-registration/vote-mail/usps-frequently-asked-questions-faqs

    Much more comfortable if votes had to arrive on election day, sorry latecomers, or if things were at least standardised, but that's a federation of states for you.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,229

    I've always thought it was more about Davis than Cameron. It was always a mystery to me why he was such a big favourite at the time. He was a fairly unknown junior minister in the Major government and his campaign for leader in 2001 was only memorable for the joint last vote. I can't remember him making much impact as a shadow minister under IDS/Howard. In such circumstances the unknown is more appealing.

    It's a mystery to me how certain people become the hot pick. We barely see a lot of them, even if they are in government, so we have little to go on.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,555
    WTF - Britain's stock market has lost its position as Europe's most-valued, with France taking the top spot
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,101
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,471
    kle4 said:

    As far as I can tell California has counted fuck all votes over the last 24 hours.

    Maybe they've all gone surfing instead.

    My guess is most counties are not scheduled to release more results until later in the afternoon-evening local time, which is now 12.30pm Pacific.

    That's what's happening today in Washington State today, in counties that did NOT hit bottom last week or over the weekend.

    For example, based on what I'm seeing on their webcams, King Co Elections is currently busting their hump processing and scanning ballots prior to scheduled 4pm Pacific (12 midnight UK) report.

    https://kingcounty.gov/depts/elections/about-us/security-and-accountability/watch-us-in-action.aspx
    "Busting their hump processing"

    I literally have no idea what that means. It must be a fancy American term for fucking about.

    Can you please tell your compatriots to stop taking fannying around to a new art form and count the fucking votes?
    "busting a hump" = working hard

    Sorry, but speedy clearing of your election bets is NOT a priority.

    Though why California IS so sloooooow is a puzzle. They have valid votes still arriving BUT so do OR and WA.
    Could there not just be a cut-off point that votes have to be in with enough time to count them at the same time that everyone else's votes get counted? The system is farcical. When Nigel Farage stood in Thanet South, some boxes of votes went missing for a period of mere hours, leading to accusations that the vote was rigged to keep him out of the Commons. That was a few hours. Your system by contrast is so open to abuse that even I could probably rig it if I felt so inclined.
    A quite google shows this from California, which is ridiculously generous if true.

    How long after Election Day will ballots still count if postmarked by Election Day?

    California has extended the time that vote-by-mail ballots can arrive to county elections offices for this election. Vote-by-mail ballots postmarked on or before Election Day can arrive up to 17 days after Election Day and be counted.


    https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voter-registration/vote-mail/usps-frequently-asked-questions-faqs

    Much more comfortable if votes had to arrive on election day, sorry latecomers, or if things were at least standardised, but that's a federation of states for you.
    Is it beyond the wit of an election fraudster to replicate a postmark? I mean if they're in the business of fraud anyway? In the UK a postmark is just an ink stamp, not a hologram or anything like that.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,229
    Nigelb said:

    This is horrifying. The Iranian parliament votes overwhelmingly (227-63) to execute the 15,000 protesters they already arrested.

    These were peaceful protestors simply seeking the right to basic justice and autonomy. Unacceptable and barbaric.

    https://twitter.com/QasimRashid/status/1592173879493120001

    How nice of them to hold a parliamentary vote about it first. No doubt they can be 'merciful' and execute somewhat less than the whole amount.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,469
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
    Brexit is like having a baby. You lose a lot of blood, and your tits droop. Forever
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,412
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
    Only way to get into the paralympics.
  • kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is horrifying. The Iranian parliament votes overwhelmingly (227-63) to execute the 15,000 protesters they already arrested.

    These were peaceful protestors simply seeking the right to basic justice and autonomy. Unacceptable and barbaric.

    https://twitter.com/QasimRashid/status/1592173879493120001

    How nice of them to hold a parliamentary vote about it first. No doubt they can be 'merciful' and execute somewhat less than the whole amount.
    Maximus. Maximus the Merciful!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 23,609

    kle4 said:

    As far as I can tell California has counted fuck all votes over the last 24 hours.

    Maybe they've all gone surfing instead.

    My guess is most counties are not scheduled to release more results until later in the afternoon-evening local time, which is now 12.30pm Pacific.

    That's what's happening today in Washington State today, in counties that did NOT hit bottom last week or over the weekend.

    For example, based on what I'm seeing on their webcams, King Co Elections is currently busting their hump processing and scanning ballots prior to scheduled 4pm Pacific (12 midnight UK) report.

    https://kingcounty.gov/depts/elections/about-us/security-and-accountability/watch-us-in-action.aspx
    "Busting their hump processing"

    I literally have no idea what that means. It must be a fancy American term for fucking about.

    Can you please tell your compatriots to stop taking fannying around to a new art form and count the fucking votes?
    "busting a hump" = working hard

    Sorry, but speedy clearing of your election bets is NOT a priority.

    Though why California IS so sloooooow is a puzzle. They have valid votes still arriving BUT so do OR and WA.
    Could there not just be a cut-off point that votes have to be in with enough time to count them at the same time that everyone else's votes get counted? The system is farcical. When Nigel Farage stood in Thanet South, some boxes of votes went missing for a period of mere hours, leading to accusations that the vote was rigged to keep him out of the Commons. That was a few hours. Your system by contrast is so open to abuse that even I could probably rig it if I felt so inclined.
    A quite google shows this from California, which is ridiculously generous if true.

    How long after Election Day will ballots still count if postmarked by Election Day?

    California has extended the time that vote-by-mail ballots can arrive to county elections offices for this election. Vote-by-mail ballots postmarked on or before Election Day can arrive up to 17 days after Election Day and be counted.


    https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voter-registration/vote-mail/usps-frequently-asked-questions-faqs

    Much more comfortable if votes had to arrive on election day, sorry latecomers, or if things were at least standardised, but that's a federation of states for you.
    Is it beyond the wit of an election fraudster to replicate a postmark? I mean if they're in the business of fraud anyway? In the UK a postmark is just an ink stamp, not a hologram or anything like that.
    Most post we receive doesn't have a legible postmark. Sometimes there's a smudge, often nothing at all.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,093

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cameron won the 2005 contest because he walked around on the stage, whereas Davies stood behind a lectern. A pretty silly reason to win, really.

    What rot, Dave won for other reasons.
    Not putting his female supporters in "it's DD for me" T-shirts, for a start.
    People have always had huge doubts about David Davis, that's why he didn't get the coronation in 2003, those doubts became realised with his vanity by election.
    He fluffed his big speech. There was no flow, and he was a bit queasy and sweaty-browed, like he'd had a bad curry. By contrast, Cameron shone. I think DD was done from that point.
    The Tories would still probably have won most seats under Davis in 2010.

    Just Clegg may well have formed a government with Labour not the Tories as he did with Cameron
    I'd have preferred him to Cameron, but the fact is, he didn't come through on the big occasion.
    DC next Con leader was a good betting win for me. He caught my eye early and I thought, "Ooo smooth and effective, fakes sincerity brilliantly, very Blair like". Got a good price. Can't recall my stake though. Could have been tiny but let's say it was large.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 23,609
    edited November 14
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
    Brexit is like having a baby. You lose a lot of blood, and your tits droop. Forever
    It was a courageous experiment; sadly, it hasn't paid-off and clearly never will.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 42,729

    I've always thought it was more about Davis than Cameron. It was always a mystery to me why he was such a big favourite at the time. He was a fairly unknown junior minister in the Major government and his campaign for leader in 2001 was only memorable for the joint last vote. I can't remember him making much impact as a shadow minister under IDS/Howard. In such circumstances the unknown is more appealing.

    I remember my surprise that all but one, as I recall, of the Tory councillors on my council were voting Davis and most of them hated Cameron. Essentially ideology trumping competence (passing over how Cameron eventually met his demise) - a foreshadow of Hunt v Johnson all those years later.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 42,729
    kle4 said:

    As far as I can tell California has counted fuck all votes over the last 24 hours.

    Maybe they've all gone surfing instead.

    My guess is most counties are not scheduled to release more results until later in the afternoon-evening local time, which is now 12.30pm Pacific.

    That's what's happening today in Washington State today, in counties that did NOT hit bottom last week or over the weekend.

    For example, based on what I'm seeing on their webcams, King Co Elections is currently busting their hump processing and scanning ballots prior to scheduled 4pm Pacific (12 midnight UK) report.

    https://kingcounty.gov/depts/elections/about-us/security-and-accountability/watch-us-in-action.aspx
    "Busting their hump processing"

    I literally have no idea what that means. It must be a fancy American term for fucking about.

    Can you please tell your compatriots to stop taking fannying around to a new art form and count the fucking votes?
    "busting a hump" = working hard

    Sorry, but speedy clearing of your election bets is NOT a priority.

    Though why California IS so sloooooow is a puzzle. They have valid votes still arriving BUT so do OR and WA.
    Could there not just be a cut-off point that votes have to be in with enough time to count them at the same time that everyone else's votes get counted? The system is farcical. When Nigel Farage stood in Thanet South, some boxes of votes went missing for a period of mere hours, leading to accusations that the vote was rigged to keep him out of the Commons. That was a few hours. Your system by contrast is so open to abuse that even I could probably rig it if I felt so inclined.
    A quite google shows this from California, which is ridiculously generous if true.

    How long after Election Day will ballots still count if postmarked by Election Day?

    California has extended the time that vote-by-mail ballots can arrive to county elections offices for this election. Vote-by-mail ballots postmarked on or before Election Day can arrive up to 17 days after Election Day and be counted.


    https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voter-registration/vote-mail/usps-frequently-asked-questions-faqs

    Much more comfortable if votes had to arrive on election day, sorry latecomers, or if things were at least standardised, but that's a federation of states for you.
    And not only that - many states allow people who haven’t completed their ballots correctly - for example returned the accompanying papers unsigned - many days afterwards to come in and ‘cure’ them, so they get counted.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,412
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cameron won the 2005 contest because he walked around on the stage, whereas Davies stood behind a lectern. A pretty silly reason to win, really.

    What rot, Dave won for other reasons.
    Not putting his female supporters in "it's DD for me" T-shirts, for a start.
    People have always had huge doubts about David Davis, that's why he didn't get the coronation in 2003, those doubts became realised with his vanity by election.
    He fluffed his big speech. There was no flow, and he was a bit queasy and sweaty-browed, like he'd had a bad curry. By contrast, Cameron shone. I think DD was done from that point.
    The Tories would still probably have won most seats under Davis in 2010.

    Just Clegg may well have formed a government with Labour not the Tories as he did with Cameron
    I'd have preferred him to Cameron, but the fact is, he didn't come through on the big occasion.
    DC next Con leader was a good betting win for me. He caught my eye early and I thought, "Ooo smooth and effective, fakes sincerity brilliantly, very Blair like". Got a good price. Can't recall my stake though. Could have been tiny but let's say it was large.
    Interesting. In a sense Cameron was the Tory Blair in style, and general appeal to the middle. We’ve had Johnson’s frivolous lack of detail, and frankly living, then the ridiculous Truss interlude and now we have Sunak, who I think is a decent enough chap, but I’m not sure he’s a leader, more a number 2.
    Starmer is the antithesis of Johnson, but I’m not sure how he relates to Sunak. I can imagine them actually getting along.
    Ultimately it probably matters little as the election is surely lost for the Tories, it’s just how badly lost it is now.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,093

    Andy_JS said:

    Cameron won the 2005 contest because he walked around on the stage, whereas Davies stood behind a lectern. A pretty silly reason to win, really.

    What rot, Dave won for other reasons.
    Not putting his female supporters in "it's DD for me" T-shirts, for a start.
    People have always had huge doubts about David Davis, that's why he didn't get the coronation in 2003, those doubts became realised with his vanity by election.
    He's not terrible but I do think that vanity is a particular weakness of his.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,471

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
    Brexit is like having a baby. You lose a lot of blood, and your tits droop. Forever
    It was a courageous experiment; sadly, it hasn't paid-off and clearly never will.
    It will pay off when we have a competent, purposeful, and patriotic government. We haven't had that combination since Brexit (or frankly before it). And if we abandon hope of getting that government, we're screwed in our out of the EU.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,469

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
    Brexit is like having a baby. You lose a lot of blood, and your tits droop. Forever
    It was a courageous experiment; sadly, it hasn't paid-off and clearly never will.
    Which is like saying, two years after child birth:

    "the brat is screaming, we haven't had sex in eight months, I don't fancy your sagging tits anymore, and we haven't been to a party for ever, this is a total failure and will never pay off"

    Welcome to: Having a Baby
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,412

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
    Brexit is like having a baby. You lose a lot of blood, and your tits droop. Forever
    It was a courageous experiment; sadly, it hasn't paid-off and clearly never will.
    I think it is genuinely too early to tell. Proponents of Brexit will be feeling aggrieved that so much else has happened to muddy the waters. The focus since March 2020 has been first covid, then covid and a war, now recovering from covid and still a war. It’s not been about taking opportunities that Brexit may afford.
    We have chosen a different path to what many wanted, It helps no one to have constant carping by remainers who seize with glee on the slightest negative story they can find. It’s almost as if they want Brexit to fail…
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,101

    It will pay off when we have a competent, purposeful, and patriotic government.

    They can start the process of rejoining...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,093
    edited November 14

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cameron won the 2005 contest because he walked around on the stage, whereas Davies stood behind a lectern. A pretty silly reason to win, really.

    What rot, Dave won for other reasons.
    Not putting his female supporters in "it's DD for me" T-shirts, for a start.
    People have always had huge doubts about David Davis, that's why he didn't get the coronation in 2003, those doubts became realised with his vanity by election.
    He fluffed his big speech. There was no flow, and he was a bit queasy and sweaty-browed, like he'd had a bad curry. By contrast, Cameron shone. I think DD was done from that point.
    The Tories would still probably have won most seats under Davis in 2010.

    Just Clegg may well have formed a government with Labour not the Tories as he did with Cameron
    I'd have preferred him to Cameron, but the fact is, he didn't come through on the big occasion.
    DC next Con leader was a good betting win for me. He caught my eye early and I thought, "Ooo smooth and effective, fakes sincerity brilliantly, very Blair like". Got a good price. Can't recall my stake though. Could have been tiny but let's say it was large.
    Interesting. In a sense Cameron was the Tory Blair in style, and general appeal to the middle. We’ve had Johnson’s frivolous lack of detail, and frankly living, then the ridiculous Truss interlude and now we have Sunak, who I think is a decent enough chap, but I’m not sure he’s a leader, more a number 2.
    Starmer is the antithesis of Johnson, but I’m not sure how he relates to Sunak. I can imagine them actually getting along.
    Ultimately it probably matters little as the election is surely lost for the Tories, it’s just how badly lost it is now.
    Yes. It's nice - and can really pay - to go against a consensus view but in this case I can't. I have Labour majority laid at 6 from ages ago and that's a goner.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,306

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
    Brexit is like having a baby. You lose a lot of blood, and your tits droop. Forever
    It was a courageous experiment; sadly, it hasn't paid-off and clearly never will.
    It will pay off when we have a competent, purposeful, and patriotic government. We haven't had that combination since Brexit (or frankly before it). And if we abandon hope of getting that government, we're screwed in our out of the EU.
    No it was a dumb idea that has made us poorer and more isolated. The government could be run by Socrates and Brexit would still be a shit sandwich.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 44,981
    How is this an internal affair when it wasn’t on Israeli territory ?

    "I have made it clear to the US government that we won’t cooperate with any external investigation and won’t allow any interference in Israel’s internal affairs,” Israeli Defense Minister Gantz said of the reported FBI probe of Shireen Abu Akleh's death.
    https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/status/1592272998161330176

    The US should make it clear they won’t tolerate the obstruction of an investigation into the killing of one of their citizens.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,363

    kle4 said:

    As far as I can tell California has counted fuck all votes over the last 24 hours.

    Maybe they've all gone surfing instead.

    My guess is most counties are not scheduled to release more results until later in the afternoon-evening local time, which is now 12.30pm Pacific.

    That's what's happening today in Washington State today, in counties that did NOT hit bottom last week or over the weekend.

    For example, based on what I'm seeing on their webcams, King Co Elections is currently busting their hump processing and scanning ballots prior to scheduled 4pm Pacific (12 midnight UK) report.

    https://kingcounty.gov/depts/elections/about-us/security-and-accountability/watch-us-in-action.aspx
    "Busting their hump processing"

    I literally have no idea what that means. It must be a fancy American term for fucking about.

    Can you please tell your compatriots to stop taking fannying around to a new art form and count the fucking votes?
    "busting a hump" = working hard

    Sorry, but speedy clearing of your election bets is NOT a priority.

    Though why California IS so sloooooow is a puzzle. They have valid votes still arriving BUT so do OR and WA.
    Could there not just be a cut-off point that votes have to be in with enough time to count them at the same time that everyone else's votes get counted? The system is farcical. When Nigel Farage stood in Thanet South, some boxes of votes went missing for a period of mere hours, leading to accusations that the vote was rigged to keep him out of the Commons. That was a few hours. Your system by contrast is so open to abuse that even I could probably rig it if I felt so inclined.
    A quite google shows this from California, which is ridiculously generous if true.

    How long after Election Day will ballots still count if postmarked by Election Day?

    California has extended the time that vote-by-mail ballots can arrive to county elections offices for this election. Vote-by-mail ballots postmarked on or before Election Day can arrive up to 17 days after Election Day and be counted.


    https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voter-registration/vote-mail/usps-frequently-asked-questions-faqs

    Much more comfortable if votes had to arrive on election day, sorry latecomers, or if things were at least standardised, but that's a federation of states for you.
    Is it beyond the wit of an election fraudster to replicate a postmark? I mean if they're in the business of fraud anyway? In the UK a postmark is just an ink stamp, not a hologram or anything like that.
    Why would they bother? Couldn't they just vote on time?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,412
    Scott_xP said:

    It will pay off when we have a competent, purposeful, and patriotic government.

    They can start the process of rejoining...
    If offered the same terms we had when we left, right now I think that would work and would win a referendum. But those terms won’t be offered.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,093
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
    Brexit is like having a baby. You lose a lot of blood, and your tits droop. Forever
    Up to a point Lord Copper.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,859
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    You do talk some absolute bollocks.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,471
    Scott_xP said:

    It will pay off when we have a competent, purposeful, and patriotic government.

    They can start the process of rejoining...
    They could do, but it wouldn't be necessary. A normal-sized country doesn't need to join the EU. Switzerland isn't, Norway isn't. The solution always lies in our own Government. That's why joining the EEC failed to solve the economic issues of the day, and neither has leaving the EU.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,412
    Scott_xP said:

    I think it is genuinely too early to tell. Proponents of Brexit will be feeling aggrieved that so much else has happened to muddy the waters. The focus since March 2020 has been first covid, then covid and a war, now recovering from covid and still a war. It’s not been about taking opportunities that Brexit may afford.

    Pay attention

    It's a shitshow, according to the people who wanted it.

    The Brexiteer DEFRA minister says we signed a really shitty deal with Australia, not because of Covid, not because of Ukraine, but because Liz Truss wanted an Instagram picture at the G7

    This was legitimately one of the only things Brexit made possible, and it's an epic disaster.

    High fives all round...
    Have you considered you might be a teeny bit obsessed? A bit like the spoof question to the person who claims his life is being ruined by immigration but can’t explain why, how is your life being ruined by Brexit?
  • Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
    Brexit is like having a baby. You lose a lot of blood, and your tits droop. Forever
    It was a courageous experiment; sadly, it hasn't paid-off and clearly never will.
    It will pay off when we have a competent, purposeful, and patriotic government. We haven't had that combination since Brexit (or frankly before it). And if we abandon hope of getting that government, we're screwed in our out of the EU.
    No it was a dumb idea that has made us poorer and more isolated. The government could be run by Socrates and Brexit would still be a shit sandwich.
    And it could be a roaring success and you would still say it was a shit sandwich because you don't care about anything but being right. You are as bad as the ERG lot.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,471
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    As far as I can tell California has counted fuck all votes over the last 24 hours.

    Maybe they've all gone surfing instead.

    My guess is most counties are not scheduled to release more results until later in the afternoon-evening local time, which is now 12.30pm Pacific.

    That's what's happening today in Washington State today, in counties that did NOT hit bottom last week or over the weekend.

    For example, based on what I'm seeing on their webcams, King Co Elections is currently busting their hump processing and scanning ballots prior to scheduled 4pm Pacific (12 midnight UK) report.

    https://kingcounty.gov/depts/elections/about-us/security-and-accountability/watch-us-in-action.aspx
    "Busting their hump processing"

    I literally have no idea what that means. It must be a fancy American term for fucking about.

    Can you please tell your compatriots to stop taking fannying around to a new art form and count the fucking votes?
    "busting a hump" = working hard

    Sorry, but speedy clearing of your election bets is NOT a priority.

    Though why California IS so sloooooow is a puzzle. They have valid votes still arriving BUT so do OR and WA.
    Could there not just be a cut-off point that votes have to be in with enough time to count them at the same time that everyone else's votes get counted? The system is farcical. When Nigel Farage stood in Thanet South, some boxes of votes went missing for a period of mere hours, leading to accusations that the vote was rigged to keep him out of the Commons. That was a few hours. Your system by contrast is so open to abuse that even I could probably rig it if I felt so inclined.
    A quite google shows this from California, which is ridiculously generous if true.

    How long after Election Day will ballots still count if postmarked by Election Day?

    California has extended the time that vote-by-mail ballots can arrive to county elections offices for this election. Vote-by-mail ballots postmarked on or before Election Day can arrive up to 17 days after Election Day and be counted.


    https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voter-registration/vote-mail/usps-frequently-asked-questions-faqs

    Much more comfortable if votes had to arrive on election day, sorry latecomers, or if things were at least standardised, but that's a federation of states for you.
    Is it beyond the wit of an election fraudster to replicate a postmark? I mean if they're in the business of fraud anyway? In the UK a postmark is just an ink stamp, not a hologram or anything like that.
    Why would they bother? Couldn't they just vote on time?
    If their candidate is in a comfortable position by the close of polls, they don't need to.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,306

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
    Brexit is like having a baby. You lose a lot of blood, and your tits droop. Forever
    It was a courageous experiment; sadly, it hasn't paid-off and clearly never will.
    I think it is genuinely too early to tell. Proponents of Brexit will be feeling aggrieved that so much else has happened to muddy the waters. The focus since March 2020 has been first covid, then covid and a war, now recovering from covid and still a war. It’s not been about taking opportunities that Brexit may afford.
    We have chosen a different path to what many wanted, It helps no one to have constant carping by remainers who seize with glee on the slightest negative story they can find. It’s almost as if they want Brexit to fail…
    No we just want people to acknowledge its failure sooner rather than later. It's failing whether we want it to or not.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,306

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
    Brexit is like having a baby. You lose a lot of blood, and your tits droop. Forever
    It was a courageous experiment; sadly, it hasn't paid-off and clearly never will.
    It will pay off when we have a competent, purposeful, and patriotic government. We haven't had that combination since Brexit (or frankly before it). And if we abandon hope of getting that government, we're screwed in our out of the EU.
    No it was a dumb idea that has made us poorer and more isolated. The government could be run by Socrates and Brexit would still be a shit sandwich.
    And it could be a roaring success and you would still say it was a shit sandwich because you don't care about anything but being right. You are as bad as the ERG lot.
    No I care about my country going down the toilet. Whether I'm right or not is irrelevant.
  • Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
    Brexit is like having a baby. You lose a lot of blood, and your tits droop. Forever
    It was a courageous experiment; sadly, it hasn't paid-off and clearly never will.
    It will pay off when we have a competent, purposeful, and patriotic government. We haven't had that combination since Brexit (or frankly before it). And if we abandon hope of getting that government, we're screwed in our out of the EU.
    No it was a dumb idea that has made us poorer and more isolated. The government could be run by Socrates and Brexit would still be a shit sandwich.
    And it could be a roaring success and you would still say it was a shit sandwich because you don't care about anything but being right. You are as bad as the ERG lot.
    No I care about my country going down the toilet. Whether I'm right or not is irrelevant.
    Bollocks.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,412
    edited November 14

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
    Brexit is like having a baby. You lose a lot of blood, and your tits droop. Forever
    It was a courageous experiment; sadly, it hasn't paid-off and clearly never will.
    I think it is genuinely too early to tell. Proponents of Brexit will be feeling aggrieved that so much else has happened to muddy the waters. The focus since March 2020 has been first covid, then covid and a war, now recovering from covid and still a war. It’s not been about taking opportunities that Brexit may afford.
    We have chosen a different path to what many wanted, It helps no one to have constant carping by remainers who seize with glee on the slightest negative story they can find. It’s almost as if they want Brexit to fail…
    No we just want people to acknowledge its failure sooner rather than later. It's failing whether we want it to or not.
    How do define failure? It was never a project that would make us richer inside 3 years. It might never do that. We are no longer pooling our sovereignty with the EU. That is a success. We are free to do as we will with trade. You may feel that is not worth the price. Fine, that’s your opinion. But how do you define failure and what would constitute success?
    Perhaps like all projects Brexit needed SMART actions so we could all see if it was working.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,306

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
    Brexit is like having a baby. You lose a lot of blood, and your tits droop. Forever
    It was a courageous experiment; sadly, it hasn't paid-off and clearly never will.
    It will pay off when we have a competent, purposeful, and patriotic government. We haven't had that combination since Brexit (or frankly before it). And if we abandon hope of getting that government, we're screwed in our out of the EU.
    No it was a dumb idea that has made us poorer and more isolated. The government could be run by Socrates and Brexit would still be a shit sandwich.
    And it could be a roaring success and you would still say it was a shit sandwich because you don't care about anything but being right. You are as bad as the ERG lot.
    No I care about my country going down the toilet. Whether I'm right or not is irrelevant.
    Bollocks.
    You are Roger Mellie and I claim my five euros.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,471
    edited November 14

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
    Brexit is like having a baby. You lose a lot of blood, and your tits droop. Forever
    It was a courageous experiment; sadly, it hasn't paid-off and clearly never will.
    It will pay off when we have a competent, purposeful, and patriotic government. We haven't had that combination since Brexit (or frankly before it). And if we abandon hope of getting that government, we're screwed in our out of the EU.
    No it was a dumb idea that has made us poorer and more isolated. The government could be run by Socrates and Brexit would still be a shit sandwich.
    If you take the emotion that you clearly feel out of this, that's not a tenable argument. Membership of the EU is the exception in Britain's history, not the rule, and most of that time we've done extremely well outside it. As a country, we have excellent resources, geography, and other advantages like language, and saying that we, of all countries, have some sort of quasi-mystical disability that would prevent us being a successful independent country, isn't a logical perspective.
  • Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
    Brexit is like having a baby. You lose a lot of blood, and your tits droop. Forever
    It was a courageous experiment; sadly, it hasn't paid-off and clearly never will.
    It will pay off when we have a competent, purposeful, and patriotic government. We haven't had that combination since Brexit (or frankly before it). And if we abandon hope of getting that government, we're screwed in our out of the EU.
    No it was a dumb idea that has made us poorer and more isolated. The government could be run by Socrates and Brexit would still be a shit sandwich.
    And it could be a roaring success and you would still say it was a shit sandwich because you don't care about anything but being right. You are as bad as the ERG lot.
    No I care about my country going down the toilet. Whether I'm right or not is irrelevant.
    Bollocks.
    You are Roger Mellie and I claim my five euros.
    And you are a liar.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 44,981
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
    Brexit is like having a baby. You lose a lot of blood, and your tits droop. Forever
    It was a courageous experiment; sadly, it hasn't paid-off and clearly never will.
    Which is like saying, two years after child birth:

    "the brat is screaming, we haven't had sex in eight months, I don't fancy your sagging tits anymore, and we haven't been to a party for ever, this is a total failure and will never pay off"

    Welcome to: Having a Baby
    Your use of metaphor is definitely like an infant repeatedly filling a nappy with the same crap.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,408

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
    Brexit is like having a baby. You lose a lot of blood, and your tits droop. Forever
    It was a courageous experiment; sadly, it hasn't paid-off and clearly never will.
    It will pay off when we have a competent, purposeful, and patriotic government. We haven't had that combination since Brexit (or frankly before it). And if we abandon hope of getting that government, we're screwed in our out of the EU.
    So it will pay off when something that has never happened before happens in the immediate future? Seems like a plan.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 44,981
    Large, semi oblate spheroids are certainly involved.

    Trump filing in suit against Twitter compares former president to Galileo
    https://www.politico.com/news/2022/11/14/new-trump-suit-against-twitter-compares-former-president-to-galileo-00066802
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,306

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
    Brexit is like having a baby. You lose a lot of blood, and your tits droop. Forever
    It was a courageous experiment; sadly, it hasn't paid-off and clearly never will.
    It will pay off when we have a competent, purposeful, and patriotic government. We haven't had that combination since Brexit (or frankly before it). And if we abandon hope of getting that government, we're screwed in our out of the EU.
    No it was a dumb idea that has made us poorer and more isolated. The government could be run by Socrates and Brexit would still be a shit sandwich.
    If you take the emotion that you clearly feel out of this, that's not a tenable argument. Membership of the EU is the exception in Britain's history, not the rule, and most of that time we've done extremely well outside it. As a country, we have excellent resources, geography, and other advantages like language, and saying that we, of all countries, have some sort of quasi-mystical disability that would prevent us being a successful independent country, isn't a logical perspective.
    Our economy was doing very badly before we joined the then EEC. We were called the sick man of Europe. That's why we joined. We've put up trade barriers with our major trading partner and we face a united Europe with us on the outside. That is a terrible situation to find ourselves in.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,093
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    You do talk some absolute bollocks.
    He's trolling. Taking a perverse pleasure in the wholly justified anger of Remainers about the damage Brexit is doing. He thinks he's laughing at us but in fact is laughing at the country he purports to love. It's unedifying.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,471
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
    Brexit is like having a baby. You lose a lot of blood, and your tits droop. Forever
    It was a courageous experiment; sadly, it hasn't paid-off and clearly never will.
    It will pay off when we have a competent, purposeful, and patriotic government. We haven't had that combination since Brexit (or frankly before it). And if we abandon hope of getting that government, we're screwed in our out of the EU.
    So it will pay off when something that has never happened before happens in the immediate future? Seems like a plan.
    Like I said, if that doesn't happen, rejoining won't 'work' anyway. Membership was never an insurance scheme against national failure. It's not a Mum to run back to - it's a burdensome set of international treaties.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 2,025

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
    Brexit is like having a baby. You lose a lot of blood, and your tits droop. Forever
    It was a courageous experiment; sadly, it hasn't paid-off and clearly never will.
    I think it is genuinely too early to tell. Proponents of Brexit will be feeling aggrieved that so much else has happened to muddy the waters. The focus since March 2020 has been first covid, then covid and a war, now recovering from covid and still a war. It’s not been about taking opportunities that Brexit may afford.
    We have chosen a different path to what many wanted, It helps no one to have constant carping by remainers who seize with glee on the slightest negative story they can find. It’s almost as if they want Brexit to fail…
    No we just want people to acknowledge its failure sooner rather than later. It's failing whether we want it to or not.
    How do you define "failing"?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,469

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Whether it prospers or not is, however, up to us. That's the point of Brexit

    It is not prospering

    That is the fact of Brexit
    If so, we need to fix that. And Brexit gives us the regulatory powers to do that

    We probably have to be more adventurous. The EU market is gone for ever. That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end
    We cut off our own leg.

    That's a blow, but it can be a boon, in the end...
    Brexit is like having a baby. You lose a lot of blood, and your tits droop. Forever
    It was a courageous experiment; sadly, it hasn't paid-off and clearly never will.
    Which is like saying, two years after child birth:

    "the brat is screaming, we haven't had sex in eight months, I don't fancy your sagging tits anymore, and we haven't been to a party for ever, this is a total failure and will never pay off"

    Welcome to: Having a Baby
    You've tortured this baby metaphor so much that even Suella Braverman would offer it asylum.

    Give it up.
    No, I won't, because the late great @SeanT was completely right. This is absolutely the best analogy for Brexit, and the easiest way to understand it

    There almost certainly won't be anything that either side can point to as constituting definitive failure or success of Brexit - ever. You had a baby, A life changing event. That's it. Your life is different forever, thereafter, and there are ways it will fuck you up, but also ways it will make you happy. And in 20 years your life will be so different you won't be able to imagine what things might be like if you'd taken that fundamentally alternative path

    What we can say is that the really bad shit - literally, shit, as in babycack in your eye - will probably come in the first few years
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 2,248
    Andy_JS said:

    Cameron won the 2005 contest because he walked around on the stage, whereas Davies stood behind a lectern. A pretty silly reason to win, really.

    And yet the least silly reason of recent times.
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