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40m have ready voted in the MidTerms – politicalbetting.com

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  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587
    edited November 2022

    People I now hate:

    Bastards with snappy/stiff letterboxes. If you have a snappy outer flap, a thick rug in between, and a stiff inner flap, then I hate I hate your Mum as well.

    Arseholes with below knee height letterboxes. Lots of fun when carrying a big bag of mail over the shoulder. Why have it so fucking low? I despise you people

    People who demarcate their doorstep. When I could walk one step from letterbox to letterbox - sometimes in a semi that shares the same bit of concrete for a doorstep - some fuckers put a barrier that makes me walk an extra twenty metres between those letterboxes. Despicable twats.

    Lazy shits that won't put a house number somewhere visible. Those dicks don't deserve mail.

    Wankers who take five minutes to come to the door when it's pissing down with rain.

    Don't be one of them

    Vertical letterboxes too. Especially those with the hinge at the top.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    People I now hate:

    Bastards with snappy/stiff letterboxes. If you have a snappy outer flap, a thick rug in between, and a stiff inner flap, then I hate I hate your Mum as well.

    Arseholes with below knee height letterboxes. Lots of fun when carrying a big bag of mail over the shoulder. Why have it so fucking low? I despise you people

    People who demarcate their doorstep. When I could walk one step from letterbox to letterbox - sometimes in a semi that shares the same bit of concrete for a doorstep - some fuckers put a barrier that makes me walk an extra twenty metres between those letterboxes. Despicable twats.

    Lazy shits that won't put a house number somewhere visible. Those dicks don't deserve mail.

    Wankers who take five minutes to come to the door when it's pissing down with rain.

    Don't be one of them

    Chanelling Bukowski?
    Not intentionally.. Did he swear a lot?
    He wrote a novel about the trials and tribs of working the mail. Post Office.
    Thanks, I might read that
    It's good. Also one you can pretty much read in one sesh.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    BREAKING: The plan to build a £250 million 'national flagship has been officially scrapped. It was going to be named after the late Prince Philip. Defence Sec Ben Wallace told MPs he was prioritising the procurement of the multi-role ocean surveillance ship (MROSS) instead.

    https://twitter.com/geoallison/status/1589646568273346560

    I know this is an unpopular view, probably because people view it as the Royals living the life of riley at public expense (I don't agree), but this is one thing that I think would have generated a clear return on investment for UK plc.

    I'd have gone for it.
    Disagree. What Royal yacht enthusiasts always seem to forget is that the thing would need a frigate-grade RN warship always escorting it, for security reasons. And add to that the positioning transit times involved, even if the PM or HM are not on the HMY. (That is what used to happen with the Britannia. Unless they devoted an entire warship to the tour, at huge cost in terms of temproary modifications, vide: Vanguard.)

    Yet another large chunk out of a shrinking pie of fleet and crewing stats.
    Then, we dedicate a frigate. Just as we do to counter narcotics, or for anti-piracy, or to demonstrate a "presence" in the South China Sea.

    Worth it.
    You may think so as an earnest Royalist, but it's a huge waste oif effort, money and above all in terms of the message it sends to the Navy and to the wider public.

    Have a look at the stats for how many destroyers and frigates the Navy had when Britannia was reguilarly in use, and today. Thge ratio is about ten to one for 1960 to today (and a lot more if I went back a bit).
    No, I don't think so at all.

    It almost certainly does more work in promoting our soft power and "brand" that sending an aircraft carrier around on tour, which is also far more expensive.

    I agree the Royal Navy is undersized with escorts. I'd expand numbers of those too.
    In two weeks time, Jeremy Hunt is set to announce 20 billion of spending cuts, 20 billion of tax rises, plus a bit.

    There really, really isn't any money left.
    250 million for HMG is fuck all mate. And it's business case would make HS2 look like burning every fiver in the country.

    You just don't want the yacht.
    In Modmathics, maybe, but more likely 1bn in real pounds, as (I think) DA pointed out the last time there was a discussion of RMY. ,

    And the warship. And the recurrent running costs, and the staffing, and the maintenance, and all the opportunity costs for an already understaffed RN.

    And the public example it sets at a time of climate crisis and public spending cuts. "Here I am! Playing at being a ricvh bastard at your expense!"
    Except not at your expense, because it generates a net return for UK plc and enhances our soft power. We all benefit.

    Emotion on this issue (all about class, of course) utterly clouds judgement.
    It is at my expense, as it creates moneyt for shareholders often in foreign lands. UK plc has been sold off long ago.

    We're not in the 1960s any more.
    Are businesses really convinced to sign on the dotted line by a glass of English Fizz on the quarter deck? Or by the cold facts of the bottom line? A bit more attention to the latter is what is needed.
    If English fizz doesn't swing the deal there's always rum, sodomy or the lash, according to taste.
    Surely hold out for all three, for the full experience? Throw in worms in the ships biscuit for extras.
    Let's not even get started on what happens on the poop deck.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015
    Phil said:

    A fair few PBers outing themselves as geeky anoraks this evening.

    Maybe I should stay on RF where the cool kids hang out?

    Or you could embrace your inner nerd :)
    Out and proud!
  • HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Mermaids over-reach becoming painfully obvious as their case is eviscerated by the Charity Commission counsel

    Absolutely key points from counsel for the Charity Commission. The law absolutely does not require all charities to have one particular view of issues that are highly contentious within society, as Mermaids seems to believe. Mermaids' position is fundamentally anti-democratic.

    https://twitter.com/soniasodha/status/1589634810942607360

    This is what happens when you only ever listen to people who agree with you…”No Debate” meets “the real world”.

    Seems like a very strange case. There must be lots of charities have views other charities think are deeply wrong. The argument about primary purpose and charitable benefit seems kind of weak.
    Even Stonewall had the wit not to get drawn into this. Arrogance borne of hubris. And people too frightened to speak out. Not any more.
    You might want to ask which minority is being eviscerated in this for little gain. Trans people have the most to fear from this witch hunt.
    Help me understand, are male-to-female trans witches or wizards?

    Always find an alterantive wording if you can: and Wiccan is helpfully ungendered.
    Wiccan is a twat religion invented in 1956 by a civil servant....just saying
    From an atheist point of view, ALL religions were invented at some point.
    Well over 80% of us globally are still religious and believe in a God (or Gods)
    ..and have left a tide of death, destruction and misery throughout history fighting over whether your flavour of invented God is any better than other people’s flavours.
    No we haven't, the 3 biggest mass murderers in history, Mao, Stalin and Hitler were all atheists or non religious.

    Many of our schools, universities, hospitals, great architecture in cathedrals, churches, mosques and synagogues and food banks and homeless shelters etc came from or are still provided today by religious bodies
    And as corrupt as any organisation
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,593

    A fair few PBers outing themselves as geeky anoraks this evening.

    Maybe I should stay on RF where the cool kids hang out?

    I thought we all collected an anorak at PB's front door?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson continues his campaign to have the Lords abolished.

    Brilliant scoop by @lara_spirit

    The teenagers who (barely) ran No10 are now going to vote on legislation.

    And FOUR by-elections coming

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9feabd7c-5ede-11ed-80da-2c56e60527b0?shareToken=54fb8195c88f326fc5a9b4530e3ffe51

    I somehow doubt Douglas Ross fancies having a by-election in D&G right now. Quite possible SCONs could come third.
    Theres a council by election in Wigtown Dec 8th which would give a steer on how the Tory vote is holding up in DandG
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,995
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FT

    Chancellor lines up stealth raid on Inheritance tax

    Good for him

    https://twitter.com/TmorrowsPapers/status/1589725227424047104?t=LeDqrQpkubI2GS3a6sveeQ&s=19

    At a time when the Tories are still on under 30% and at least half of that 30% will be wealthy property owners and their heirs in the South, a risky strategy, certainly if not reversed before the next general election and with Reform already up to 5%.

    Though a temporary freeze in the threshold as with most taxes provided the threshold raised before the next election not too damaging
    It is not going to be reversed and the 4,000 plus members who have already joined ReformUK provides hope for one nation conservatives that the right and its ERG are heading hopefully the same way as the Corbynites
    They aren't, basically Sunak is Gordon Brown 2010 on current polls not Cameron 2010 or Blair 1997 and if he and Sunak lose the next general election they will get the blame. Expect the Conservatives to then swing heavily to the populist right in opposition under Badenoch, Braverman, Mogg etc as Labour swung to the populist left under Ed Miliband and Corbyn after Brown's defeat.

    None of that lot will be in the HOC if Sunak cannot turn things round thankfully
    Are you sure? Saffron Walden is safe for the Conservatives even on 25%, so that's Badenoch OK. Fareham + Waterlooville just flips on those numbers, but Hedge End is next door and a better Conservative prospect. That keeps Braverman in.

    I'd much rather see a return to One Nation Conservatism, but I suspect that, if the party loses in 2024, it will take the long way round, because that's what parties do these days.
    Indeed, it took 14 years after the centrist Callaghan lost for Labour to get to the centrist Blair, going through Foot, Kinnock and Smith in the process (though Smith not as left as the other 2).

    It took 8 years after centrist Major lost to get to centrist Cameron, during which the Tories were led by Hague, IDS and Howard.

    It took 13 years after centrist Blair went for Labour to elect more centrist Starmer, going through Brown, Ed Miliband and Corbyn in the process.

    If centrist Sunak and Hunt lose the next election the populist right will likely take control of the Conservative party for the next decade after
    Ed led as a centrist though.
    Yes, in reality it wasn’t as straightforward as the timeline suggests. Hague and Miliband were less centrist than their predecessors but not madly so, it was the second pick when they went mad with IDS and Corbyn respectively.

    Same with the Tories post Cameron. May was a little to his right, then Boris went full fat Brexit populist.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FT

    Chancellor lines up stealth raid on Inheritance tax

    Good for him

    https://twitter.com/TmorrowsPapers/status/1589725227424047104?t=LeDqrQpkubI2GS3a6sveeQ&s=19

    At a time when the Tories are still on under 30% and at least half of that 30% will be wealthy property owners and their heirs in the South, a risky strategy, certainly if not reversed before the next general election and with Reform already up to 5%.

    Though a temporary freeze in the threshold as with most taxes provided the threshold raised before the next election not too damaging
    It is not going to be reversed and the 4,000 plus members who have already joined ReformUK provides hope for one nation conservatives that the right and its ERG are heading hopefully the same way as the Corbynites
    They aren't, basically Sunak is Gordon Brown 2010 on current polls not Cameron 2010 or Blair 1997 and if he and Sunak lose the next general election they will get the blame. Expect the Conservatives to then swing heavily to the populist right in opposition under Badenoch, Braverman, Mogg etc as Labour swung to the populist left under Ed Miliband and Corbyn after Brown's defeat.

    None of that lot will be in the HOC if Sunak cannot turn things round thankfully
    Are you sure? Saffron Walden is safe for the Conservatives even on 25%, so that's Badenoch OK. Fareham + Waterlooville just flips on those numbers, but Hedge End is next door and a better Conservative prospect. That keeps Braverman in.

    I'd much rather see a return to One Nation Conservatism, but I suspect that, if the party loses in 2024, it will take the long way round, because that's what parties do these days.
    Indeed, it took 14 years after the centrist Callaghan lost for Labour to get to the centrist Blair, going through Foot, Kinnock and Smith in the process (though Smith not as left as the other 2).

    It took 8 years after centrist Major lost to get to centrist Cameron, during which the Tories were led by Hague, IDS and Howard.

    It took 13 years after centrist Blair went for Labour to elect more centrist Starmer, going through Brown, Ed Miliband and Corbyn in the process.

    If centrist Sunak and Hunt lose the next election the populist right will likely take control of the Conservative party for the next decade after
    Ed led as a centrist though.
    He didn't, he pushed higher taxes on the rich, higher spending than the Coalition, and voted against action against Assad which even Obama wanted.

    David Miliband was the centrist in 2010 not Ed
    EdM is Soft Left. That is essentially the centre of gravity within the Labour Party. DavidM is on the right of Labour, but closer to the political centre overall.

  • glwglw Posts: 9,906

    Just received my copy of the newly published book on the origins of Games Worksop. Of particular interest to me as I worked for Citadel (the miniatures arm of GW) back in the early days before they moved everything to Nottingham and am still friends with most of the people mentioned in the book. It is an impressive success story to go from one small shop in London and a workshop in Newark to a multi-billion pound company.

    I used to regularly go to that shop in Hammersmith with my friends when I was a kid. I loved going in there and looking through all the new things that had come in. D&D, Traveller, CofC, Citadel Minatures, and of course White Dwarf.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437
    Scott_xP said:

    Exclusive

    A major UK-US energy deal is set to be struck, with billions of cubic metres of liquified gas imported into UK.

    An “energy security partnership”. Due after Cop27. Could ease winter supply fears. To be hailed as move away from Russian exports.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/07/rishi-sunak-strike-gas-deal-us-ease-energy-crisis/

    I’ve talked to half a dozen current and former UK government figures familiar with negotiations.

    Deal was so close to being done Downing St hoped to announce it in the week Liz Truss resigned.

    Truss and Biden personally discussed the deal (a sign of its perceived importance).

    Oh, I wonder why fracking was banned again?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,995
    Macron is very good at laying on the charm with international peers when he wants to isn’t he? He went through a grumpy period, with his quasi-ineffective vaccine comments and repeated berating of the US culminating in the fuming over AUKUS (though most of the ire was pointed at Aus for that) but he seems to be back to the charm again.

    For all his imperfections the French are well led at the moment. I think he also recognises the gap in German leadership in Europe left by Merkel’s departure, and the risks and opportunities that brings.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437
    edited November 2022
    TimS said:

    Macron is very good at laying on the charm with international peers when he wants to isn’t he? He went through a grumpy period, with his quasi-ineffective vaccine comments and repeated berating of the US culminating in the fuming over AUKUS (though most of the ire was pointed at Aus for that) but he seems to be back to the charm again.

    For all his imperfections the French are well led at the moment. I think he also recognises the gap in German leadership in Europe left by Merkel’s departure, and the risks and opportunities that brings.

    Utterly useless and prone to tantrums when the chips are down but good at simpering around at international symposia or whenever in the presence of a TV camera is a pretty low bar for 'well led' I would argue.
  • kinabalu said:

    Phil said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AlistairM said:

    That's a lot of money for a single plane. However, the An-225 was a real symbol of Ukraine's identity. It is clearly being done for the message that it sends.

    Ukraine has started construction of the second An-225 Mriya model aircraft. It will replace the legendary board, which was destroyed by the Russian invaders in Gostomel at the beginning of the invasion. According to the newspaper Bild, the new "Mriya" is already 30% ready.

    "The work is being done in a secret place. The second An-225 will be supplied with both new parts and parts of the damaged aircraft," said Yevhen Gavrilov, General Director of Antonov State Enterprise.

    The estimated cost of construction of the second "Mria" is 500 million euros.

    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1589699184734900224

    Half a billion Euros for a "model aircraft"!

    They're having a laugh.
    They have been looking at Games Workshop's pricing policy.
    Just received my copy of the newly published book on the origins of Games Worksop. Of particular interest to me as I worked for Citadel (the miniatures arm of GW) back in the early days before they moved everything to Nottingham and am still friends with most of the people mentioned in the book. It is an impressive success story to go from one small shop in London and a workshop in Newark to a multi-billion pound company.
    It's an amazing business. And unsung engineering heroes, too. I was an avid customer in the early days, and now, 40 years later, I'm sinking the GDP of a small country into minis since my nearly-9yo daughter discovered 40k for herself.
    For all that I have great admiration for GW, there is a vast world of alternatives out there if you find 40K stuff too expensive. Depending on where you live, come to one of our shows at Newark next year and you can get some insight into depth of the hobby.

    Also remember the legend is that you can't die until you paint your last mini. I have about 20,000 of them as insurance :smile:
    That is ... impressive.

    I painted a few minis back in my teenage years, back when everything was still cast in metal. Never made the shift to plastic.

    My collection of “White Dwarf” back issues is sadly lost to time & entropy however.
    My collection of White Dwarf back issues was thrown out by my parents while I was at uni.
    Ditto my Bond novels. My parents not yours in this case. I had every one in the pan original - a proper collection in impeccable condition that would be worth big bucks now. They disclaim knowingly getting rid of them and maybe that's true. Perhaps in the haste to transfer my room to my brother they just got permanently lost. It still gnaws at me. The not knowing is worse than the
    loss. No closure.
    What's the name of the Games Workshop book pls?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FT

    Chancellor lines up stealth raid on Inheritance tax

    Good for him

    https://twitter.com/TmorrowsPapers/status/1589725227424047104?t=LeDqrQpkubI2GS3a6sveeQ&s=19

    At a time when the Tories are still on under 30% and at least half of that 30% will be wealthy property owners and their heirs in the South, a risky strategy, certainly if not reversed before the next general election and with Reform already up to 5%.

    Though a temporary freeze in the threshold as with most taxes provided the threshold raised before the next election not too damaging
    It is not going to be reversed and the 4,000 plus members who have already joined ReformUK provides hope for one nation conservatives that the right and its ERG are heading hopefully the same way as the Corbynites
    They aren't, basically Sunak is Gordon Brown 2010 on current polls not Cameron 2010 or Blair 1997 and if he and Sunak lose the next general election they will get the blame. Expect the Conservatives to then swing heavily to the populist right in opposition under Badenoch, Braverman, Mogg etc as Labour swung to the populist left under Ed Miliband and Corbyn after Brown's defeat.

    None of that lot will be in the HOC if Sunak cannot turn things round thankfully
    Are you sure? Saffron Walden is safe for the Conservatives even on 25%, so that's Badenoch OK. Fareham + Waterlooville just flips on those numbers, but Hedge End is next door and a better Conservative prospect. That keeps Braverman in.

    I'd much rather see a return to One Nation Conservatism, but I suspect that, if the party loses in 2024, it will take the long way round, because that's what parties do these days.
    Indeed, it took 14 years after the centrist Callaghan lost for Labour to get to the centrist Blair, going through Foot, Kinnock and Smith in the process (though Smith not as left as the other 2).

    It took 8 years after centrist Major lost to get to centrist Cameron, during which the Tories were led by Hague, IDS and Howard.

    It took 13 years after centrist Blair went for Labour to elect more centrist Starmer, going through Brown, Ed Miliband and Corbyn in the process.

    If centrist Sunak and Hunt lose the next election the populist right will likely take control of the Conservative party for the next decade after
    Ed led as a centrist though.
    He didn't, he pushed higher taxes on the rich, higher spending than the Coalition, and voted against action against Assad which even Obama wanted.

    David Miliband was the centrist in 2010 not Ed
    The 2015 manifesto lacked radicalism. Ed himself admits this now. Ok, so David was the authentic Blairite, but Ed was more Brown than Corbyn. There was no lurch left under him. "Red Ed" was tory mischief.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969
    edited November 2022
    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FT

    Chancellor lines up stealth raid on Inheritance tax

    Good for him

    https://twitter.com/TmorrowsPapers/status/1589725227424047104?t=LeDqrQpkubI2GS3a6sveeQ&s=19

    At a time when the Tories are still on under 30% and at least half of that 30% will be wealthy property owners and their heirs in the South, a risky strategy, certainly if not reversed before the next general election and with Reform already up to 5%.

    Though a temporary freeze in the threshold as with most taxes provided the threshold raised before the next election not too damaging
    It is not going to be reversed and the 4,000 plus members who have already joined ReformUK provides hope for one nation conservatives that the right and its ERG are heading hopefully the same way as the Corbynites
    They aren't, basically Sunak is Gordon Brown 2010 on current polls not Cameron 2010 or Blair 1997 and if he and Sunak lose the next general election they will get the blame. Expect the Conservatives to then swing heavily to the populist right in opposition under Badenoch, Braverman, Mogg etc as Labour swung to the populist left under Ed Miliband and Corbyn after Brown's defeat.

    None of that lot will be in the HOC if Sunak cannot turn things round thankfully
    Are you sure? Saffron Walden is safe for the Conservatives even on 25%, so that's Badenoch OK. Fareham + Waterlooville just flips on those numbers, but Hedge End is next door and a better Conservative prospect. That keeps Braverman in.

    I'd much rather see a return to One Nation Conservatism, but I suspect that, if the party loses in 2024, it will take the long way round, because that's what parties do these days.
    Indeed, it took 14 years after the centrist Callaghan lost for Labour to get to the centrist Blair, going through Foot, Kinnock and Smith in the process (though Smith not as left as the other 2).

    It took 8 years after centrist Major lost to get to centrist Cameron, during which the Tories were led by Hague, IDS and Howard.

    It took 13 years after centrist Blair went for Labour to elect more centrist Starmer, going through Brown, Ed Miliband and Corbyn in the process.

    If centrist Sunak and Hunt lose the next election the populist right will likely take control of the Conservative party for the next decade after
    Ed led as a centrist though.
    Yes, in reality it wasn’t as straightforward as the timeline suggests. Hague and Miliband were less centrist than their predecessors but not madly so, it was the second pick when they went mad with IDS and Corbyn respectively.

    Same with the Tories post Cameron. May was a little to his right, then Boris went full fat Brexit populist.
    Apart from Brexit, Boris was actually left of Cameron economically and also largely socially liberal.

    Even Truss was a social liberal. The Tories haven't had an economically Thatcherite and socially conservative leader since IDS/Howard, if Sunak loses the next election however they will likely elect just such a leader as the party, the members especially, will conclude they lost as they were not rightwing enough
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664

    TimS said:

    Macron is very good at laying on the charm with international peers when he wants to isn’t he? He went through a grumpy period, with his quasi-ineffective vaccine comments and repeated berating of the US culminating in the fuming over AUKUS (though most of the ire was pointed at Aus for that) but he seems to be back to the charm again.

    For all his imperfections the French are well led at the moment. I think he also recognises the gap in German leadership in Europe left by Merkel’s departure, and the risks and opportunities that brings.

    Utterly useless and prone to tantrums when the chips are down but good at simpering around at international symposia or whenever in the presence of a TV camera is a pretty low bar for 'well led' I would argue.
    No, the UK experience over recent years is the low bar for 'well led'.
  • kinabalu said:

    Phil said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AlistairM said:

    That's a lot of money for a single plane. However, the An-225 was a real symbol of Ukraine's identity. It is clearly being done for the message that it sends.

    Ukraine has started construction of the second An-225 Mriya model aircraft. It will replace the legendary board, which was destroyed by the Russian invaders in Gostomel at the beginning of the invasion. According to the newspaper Bild, the new "Mriya" is already 30% ready.

    "The work is being done in a secret place. The second An-225 will be supplied with both new parts and parts of the damaged aircraft," said Yevhen Gavrilov, General Director of Antonov State Enterprise.

    The estimated cost of construction of the second "Mria" is 500 million euros.

    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1589699184734900224

    Half a billion Euros for a "model aircraft"!

    They're having a laugh.
    They have been looking at Games Workshop's pricing policy.
    Just received my copy of the newly published book on the origins of Games Worksop. Of particular interest to me as I worked for Citadel (the miniatures arm of GW) back in the early days before they moved everything to Nottingham and am still friends with most of the people mentioned in the book. It is an impressive success story to go from one small shop in London and a workshop in Newark to a multi-billion pound company.
    It's an amazing business. And unsung engineering heroes, too. I was an avid customer in the early days, and now, 40 years later, I'm sinking the GDP of a small country into minis since my nearly-9yo daughter discovered 40k for herself.
    For all that I have great admiration for GW, there is a vast world of alternatives out there if you find 40K stuff too expensive. Depending on where you live, come to one of our shows at Newark next year and you can get some insight into depth of the hobby.

    Also remember the legend is that you can't die until you paint your last mini. I have about 20,000 of them as insurance :smile:
    That is ... impressive.

    I painted a few minis back in my teenage years, back when everything was still cast in metal. Never made the shift to plastic.

    My collection of “White Dwarf” back issues is sadly lost to time & entropy however.
    My collection of White Dwarf back issues was thrown out by my parents while I was at uni.
    Ditto my Bond novels. My parents not yours in this case. I had every one in the pan original - a proper collection in impeccable condition that would be worth big bucks now. They disclaim knowingly getting rid of them and maybe that's true. Perhaps in the haste to transfer my room to my brother they just got permanently lost. It still gnaws at me. The not knowing is worse than the
    loss. No closure.
    What's the name of the Games Workshop book pls?
    Speaking of GW, two brand new Fighting Fantasy gamebooks were published in September.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,160

    kinabalu said:

    Phil said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AlistairM said:

    That's a lot of money for a single plane. However, the An-225 was a real symbol of Ukraine's identity. It is clearly being done for the message that it sends.

    Ukraine has started construction of the second An-225 Mriya model aircraft. It will replace the legendary board, which was destroyed by the Russian invaders in Gostomel at the beginning of the invasion. According to the newspaper Bild, the new "Mriya" is already 30% ready.

    "The work is being done in a secret place. The second An-225 will be supplied with both new parts and parts of the damaged aircraft," said Yevhen Gavrilov, General Director of Antonov State Enterprise.

    The estimated cost of construction of the second "Mria" is 500 million euros.

    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1589699184734900224

    Half a billion Euros for a "model aircraft"!

    They're having a laugh.
    They have been looking at Games Workshop's pricing policy.
    Just received my copy of the newly published book on the origins of Games Worksop. Of particular interest to me as I worked for Citadel (the miniatures arm of GW) back in the early days before they moved everything to Nottingham and am still friends with most of the people mentioned in the book. It is an impressive success story to go from one small shop in London and a workshop in Newark to a multi-billion pound company.
    It's an amazing business. And unsung engineering heroes, too. I was an avid customer in the early days, and now, 40 years later, I'm sinking the GDP of a small country into minis since my nearly-9yo daughter discovered 40k for herself.
    For all that I have great admiration for GW, there is a vast world of alternatives out there if you find 40K stuff too expensive. Depending on where you live, come to one of our shows at Newark next year and you can get some insight into depth of the hobby.

    Also remember the legend is that you can't die until you paint your last mini. I have about 20,000 of them as insurance :smile:
    That is ... impressive.

    I painted a few minis back in my teenage years, back when everything was still cast in metal. Never made the shift to plastic.

    My collection of “White Dwarf” back issues is sadly lost to time & entropy however.
    My collection of White Dwarf back issues was thrown out by my parents while I was at uni.
    Ditto my Bond novels. My parents not yours in this case. I had every one in the pan original - a proper collection in impeccable condition that would be worth big bucks now. They disclaim knowingly getting rid of them and maybe that's true. Perhaps in the haste to transfer my room to my brother they just got permanently lost. It still gnaws at me. The not knowing is worse than the
    loss. No closure.
    What's the name of the Games Workshop book pls?
    Dice Men, I think.

    I'm friends with Ian Livingston, from when he worked at Eidos and I covered it at Goldman Sachs.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    AlistairM said:

    Wow, Macron and Sunak are really loved up.

    Tuesday's The Times - Welfare and pensions set to rise with inflation. @thetimes | #TomorrowsPapersToday | #FrontPages

    https://twitter.com/FirstEdition/status/1589745680243101697

    Are they about to French kiss?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437
    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FT

    Chancellor lines up stealth raid on Inheritance tax

    Good for him

    https://twitter.com/TmorrowsPapers/status/1589725227424047104?t=LeDqrQpkubI2GS3a6sveeQ&s=19

    At a time when the Tories are still on under 30% and at least half of that 30% will be wealthy property owners and their heirs in the South, a risky strategy, certainly if not reversed before the next general election and with Reform already up to 5%.

    Though a temporary freeze in the threshold as with most taxes provided the threshold raised before the next election not too damaging
    It is not going to be reversed and the 4,000 plus members who have already joined ReformUK provides hope for one nation conservatives that the right and its ERG are heading hopefully the same way as the Corbynites
    They aren't, basically Sunak is Gordon Brown 2010 on current polls not Cameron 2010 or Blair 1997 and if he and Sunak lose the next general election they will get the blame. Expect the Conservatives to then swing heavily to the populist right in opposition under Badenoch, Braverman, Mogg etc as Labour swung to the populist left under Ed Miliband and Corbyn after Brown's defeat.

    None of that lot will be in the HOC if Sunak cannot turn things round thankfully
    Are you sure? Saffron Walden is safe for the Conservatives even on 25%, so that's Badenoch OK. Fareham + Waterlooville just flips on those numbers, but Hedge End is next door and a better Conservative prospect. That keeps Braverman in.

    I'd much rather see a return to One Nation Conservatism, but I suspect that, if the party loses in 2024, it will take the long way round, because that's what parties do these days.
    Indeed, it took 14 years after the centrist Callaghan lost for Labour to get to the centrist Blair, going through Foot, Kinnock and Smith in the process (though Smith not as left as the other 2).

    It took 8 years after centrist Major lost to get to centrist Cameron, during which the Tories were led by Hague, IDS and Howard.

    It took 13 years after centrist Blair went for Labour to elect more centrist Starmer, going through Brown, Ed Miliband and Corbyn in the process.

    If centrist Sunak and Hunt lose the next election the populist right will likely take control of the Conservative party for the next decade after
    Ed led as a centrist though.
    Yes, in reality it wasn’t as straightforward as the timeline suggests. Hague and Miliband were less centrist than their predecessors but not madly so, it was the second pick when they went mad with IDS and Corbyn respectively.

    Same with the Tories post Cameron. May was a little to his right, then Boris went full fat Brexit populist.
    Apart from Brexit, Boris was actually left of Cameron economically and also largely socially liberal.

    Even Truss was a social liberal. The Tories haven't had an economically Thatcherite and socially conservative leader since IDS/Howard, if Sunak loses the next election however they will likely elect just such a leader as the party, the members especially, will conclude they lost as they were not rightwing enough
    Left and right is an imperfect spectrum upon which to judge economic policy. Cameron and Osborne were quite right wing by the standards of the time in their approach to welfare, but they didn't adopt protectionist economic policies or protect key national assets from being sold into foreign ownership, which would be an element of typical right wing behaviour.
  • kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FT

    Chancellor lines up stealth raid on Inheritance tax

    Good for him

    https://twitter.com/TmorrowsPapers/status/1589725227424047104?t=LeDqrQpkubI2GS3a6sveeQ&s=19

    At a time when the Tories are still on under 30% and at least half of that 30% will be wealthy property owners and their heirs in the South, a risky strategy, certainly if not reversed before the next general election and with Reform already up to 5%.

    Though a temporary freeze in the threshold as with most taxes provided the threshold raised before the next election not too damaging
    It is not going to be reversed and the 4,000 plus members who have already joined ReformUK provides hope for one nation conservatives that the right and its ERG are heading hopefully the same way as the Corbynites
    They aren't, basically Sunak is Gordon Brown 2010 on current polls not Cameron 2010 or Blair 1997 and if he and Sunak lose the next general election they will get the blame. Expect the Conservatives to then swing heavily to the populist right in opposition under Badenoch, Braverman, Mogg etc as Labour swung to the populist left under Ed Miliband and Corbyn after Brown's defeat.

    None of that lot will be in the HOC if Sunak cannot turn things round thankfully
    Are you sure? Saffron Walden is safe for the Conservatives even on 25%, so that's Badenoch OK. Fareham + Waterlooville just flips on those numbers, but Hedge End is next door and a better Conservative prospect. That keeps Braverman in.

    I'd much rather see a return to One Nation Conservatism, but I suspect that, if the party loses in 2024, it will take the long way round, because that's what parties do these days.
    Indeed, it took 14 years after the centrist Callaghan lost for Labour to get to the centrist Blair, going through Foot, Kinnock and Smith in the process (though Smith not as left as the other 2).

    It took 8 years after centrist Major lost to get to centrist Cameron, during which the Tories were led by Hague, IDS and Howard.

    It took 13 years after centrist Blair went for Labour to elect more centrist Starmer, going through Brown, Ed Miliband and Corbyn in the process.

    If centrist Sunak and Hunt lose the next election the populist right will likely take control of the Conservative party for the next decade after
    Ed led as a centrist though.
    He didn't, he pushed higher taxes on the rich, higher spending than the Coalition, and voted against action against Assad which even Obama wanted.

    David Miliband was the centrist in 2010 not Ed
    The 2015 manifesto lacked radicalism. Ed himself admits this now. Ok, so David was the authentic Blairite, but Ed was more Brown than Corbyn. There was no lurch left under him. "Red Ed" was tory mischief.
    Lots of echoes of Hague though. Neither of them was a stupid suggestion as Prime Minister, but equally it's clear that neither of them was quite up to it. And both took the top job too soon. Both a bit too much about pleasing the home crowd rather than winning back floating voters.

    If Sunak does fail in 2024, does Badenoch fit the bill for Hague/Miliband "almost plausible, but not really" role, followed by Braverman as "full on self-indulgence" a la IDS or Corbyn? Meanwhile the next Conservative PM is grimly trudging the Candidates' List circuit somewhere.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437

    TimS said:

    Macron is very good at laying on the charm with international peers when he wants to isn’t he? He went through a grumpy period, with his quasi-ineffective vaccine comments and repeated berating of the US culminating in the fuming over AUKUS (though most of the ire was pointed at Aus for that) but he seems to be back to the charm again.

    For all his imperfections the French are well led at the moment. I think he also recognises the gap in German leadership in Europe left by Merkel’s departure, and the risks and opportunities that brings.

    Utterly useless and prone to tantrums when the chips are down but good at simpering around at international symposia or whenever in the presence of a TV camera is a pretty low bar for 'well led' I would argue.
    No, the UK experience over recent years is the low bar for 'well led'.
    I'm not arguing.
  • HYUFD said:


    Many of our schools, universities, hospitals, great architecture in cathedrals, churches, mosques and synagogues and food banks and homeless shelters etc came from or are still provided today by religious bodies

    So? It doesn't actually mean "God" exists
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FT

    Chancellor lines up stealth raid on Inheritance tax

    Good for him

    https://twitter.com/TmorrowsPapers/status/1589725227424047104?t=LeDqrQpkubI2GS3a6sveeQ&s=19

    At a time when the Tories are still on under 30% and at least half of that 30% will be wealthy property owners and their heirs in the South, a risky strategy, certainly if not reversed before the next general election and with Reform already up to 5%.

    Though a temporary freeze in the threshold as with most taxes provided the threshold raised before the next election not too damaging
    It is not going to be reversed and the 4,000 plus members who have already joined ReformUK provides hope for one nation conservatives that the right and its ERG are heading hopefully the same way as the Corbynites
    They aren't, basically Sunak is Gordon Brown 2010 on current polls not Cameron 2010 or Blair 1997 and if he and Sunak lose the next general election they will get the blame. Expect the Conservatives to then swing heavily to the populist right in opposition under Badenoch, Braverman, Mogg etc as Labour swung to the populist left under Ed Miliband and Corbyn after Brown's defeat.

    None of that lot will be in the HOC if Sunak cannot turn things round thankfully
    Are you sure? Saffron Walden is safe for the Conservatives even on 25%, so that's Badenoch OK. Fareham + Waterlooville just flips on those numbers, but Hedge End is next door and a better Conservative prospect. That keeps Braverman in.

    I'd much rather see a return to One Nation Conservatism, but I suspect that, if the party loses in 2024, it will take the long way round, because that's what parties do these days.
    Indeed, it took 14 years after the centrist Callaghan lost for Labour to get to the centrist Blair, going through Foot, Kinnock and Smith in the process (though Smith not as left as the other 2).

    It took 8 years after centrist Major lost to get to centrist Cameron, during which the Tories were led by Hague, IDS and Howard.

    It took 13 years after centrist Blair went for Labour to elect more centrist Starmer, going through Brown, Ed Miliband and Corbyn in the process.

    If centrist Sunak and Hunt lose the next election the populist right will likely take control of the Conservative party for the next decade after
    Ed led as a centrist though.
    Yes, in reality it wasn’t as straightforward as the timeline suggests. Hague and Miliband were less centrist than their predecessors but not madly so, it was the second pick when they went mad with IDS and Corbyn respectively.

    Same with the Tories post Cameron. May was a little to his right, then Boris went full fat Brexit populist.
    Post Brexit politics is a different beast imo. 23/6 is a bit of a ground zero. I don't know where it's all going from here.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FT

    Chancellor lines up stealth raid on Inheritance tax

    Good for him

    https://twitter.com/TmorrowsPapers/status/1589725227424047104?t=LeDqrQpkubI2GS3a6sveeQ&s=19

    At a time when the Tories are still on under 30% and at least half of that 30% will be wealthy property owners and their heirs in the South, a risky strategy, certainly if not reversed before the next general election and with Reform already up to 5%.

    Though a temporary freeze in the threshold as with most taxes provided the threshold raised before the next election not too damaging
    It is not going to be reversed and the 4,000 plus members who have already joined ReformUK provides hope for one nation conservatives that the right and its ERG are heading hopefully the same way as the Corbynites
    They aren't, basically Sunak is Gordon Brown 2010 on current polls not Cameron 2010 or Blair 1997 and if he and Sunak lose the next general election they will get the blame. Expect the Conservatives to then swing heavily to the populist right in opposition under Badenoch, Braverman, Mogg etc as Labour swung to the populist left under Ed Miliband and Corbyn after Brown's defeat.

    None of that lot will be in the HOC if Sunak cannot turn things round thankfully
    Are you sure? Saffron Walden is safe for the Conservatives even on 25%, so that's Badenoch OK. Fareham + Waterlooville just flips on those numbers, but Hedge End is next door and a better Conservative prospect. That keeps Braverman in.

    I'd much rather see a return to One Nation Conservatism, but I suspect that, if the party loses in 2024, it will take the long way round, because that's what parties do these days.
    Indeed, it took 14 years after the centrist Callaghan lost for Labour to get to the centrist Blair, going through Foot, Kinnock and Smith in the process (though Smith not as left as the other 2).

    It took 8 years after centrist Major lost to get to centrist Cameron, during which the Tories were led by Hague, IDS and Howard.

    It took 13 years after centrist Blair went for Labour to elect more centrist Starmer, going through Brown, Ed Miliband and Corbyn in the process.

    If centrist Sunak and Hunt lose the next election the populist right will likely take control of the Conservative party for the next decade after
    Ed led as a centrist though.
    He didn't, he pushed higher taxes on the rich, higher spending than the Coalition, and voted against action against Assad which even Obama wanted.

    David Miliband was the centrist in 2010 not Ed
    The 2015 manifesto lacked radicalism. Ed himself admits this now. Ok, so David was the authentic Blairite, but Ed was more Brown than Corbyn. There was no lurch left under him. "Red Ed" was tory mischief.
    Lots of echoes of Hague though. Neither of them was a stupid suggestion as Prime Minister, but equally it's clear that neither of them was quite up to it. And both took the top job too soon. Both a bit too much about pleasing the home crowd rather than winning back floating voters.

    If Sunak does fail in 2024, does Badenoch fit the bill for Hague/Miliband "almost plausible, but not really" role, followed by Braverman as "full on self-indulgence" a la IDS or Corbyn? Meanwhile the next Conservative PM is grimly trudging the Candidates' List circuit somewhere.
    JRM is really the Tory Corbyn, after an election defeat or two Tory members might well want a leader they would love regardless of electability!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    Did we note this last week ?

    https://twitter.com/SpencerGuard/status/1589063847239127042
    “Nuclear weapons must not be used over Ukraine, Chinese President Xi Jinping said on Friday, offering Beijing's clearest response yet to Russia's invasion”…even China sends Russia a message - the world is against your nuclear threats and terrorism.
  • rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Phil said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AlistairM said:

    That's a lot of money for a single plane. However, the An-225 was a real symbol of Ukraine's identity. It is clearly being done for the message that it sends.

    Ukraine has started construction of the second An-225 Mriya model aircraft. It will replace the legendary board, which was destroyed by the Russian invaders in Gostomel at the beginning of the invasion. According to the newspaper Bild, the new "Mriya" is already 30% ready.

    "The work is being done in a secret place. The second An-225 will be supplied with both new parts and parts of the damaged aircraft," said Yevhen Gavrilov, General Director of Antonov State Enterprise.

    The estimated cost of construction of the second "Mria" is 500 million euros.

    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1589699184734900224

    Half a billion Euros for a "model aircraft"!

    They're having a laugh.
    They have been looking at Games Workshop's pricing policy.
    Just received my copy of the newly published book on the origins of Games Worksop. Of particular interest to me as I worked for Citadel (the miniatures arm of GW) back in the early days before they moved everything to Nottingham and am still friends with most of the people mentioned in the book. It is an impressive success story to go from one small shop in London and a workshop in Newark to a multi-billion pound company.
    It's an amazing business. And unsung engineering heroes, too. I was an avid customer in the early days, and now, 40 years later, I'm sinking the GDP of a small country into minis since my nearly-9yo daughter discovered 40k for herself.
    For all that I have great admiration for GW, there is a vast world of alternatives out there if you find 40K stuff too expensive. Depending on where you live, come to one of our shows at Newark next year and you can get some insight into depth of the hobby.

    Also remember the legend is that you can't die until you paint your last mini. I have about 20,000 of them as insurance :smile:
    That is ... impressive.

    I painted a few minis back in my teenage years, back when everything was still cast in metal. Never made the shift to plastic.

    My collection of “White Dwarf” back issues is sadly lost to time & entropy however.
    My collection of White Dwarf back issues was thrown out by my parents while I was at uni.
    Ditto my Bond novels. My parents not yours in this case. I had every one in the pan original - a proper collection in impeccable condition that would be worth big bucks now. They disclaim knowingly getting rid of them and maybe that's true. Perhaps in the haste to transfer my room to my brother they just got permanently lost. It still gnaws at me. The not knowing is worse than the
    loss. No closure.
    What's the name of the Games Workshop book pls?
    Dice Men, I think.

    I'm friends with Ian Livingston, from when he worked at Eidos and I covered it at Goldman Sachs.
    Yep Dice Men. It was initially published via a form of crowdfunding but I think is now available generally.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015

    kinabalu said:

    Phil said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AlistairM said:

    That's a lot of money for a single plane. However, the An-225 was a real symbol of Ukraine's identity. It is clearly being done for the message that it sends.

    Ukraine has started construction of the second An-225 Mriya model aircraft. It will replace the legendary board, which was destroyed by the Russian invaders in Gostomel at the beginning of the invasion. According to the newspaper Bild, the new "Mriya" is already 30% ready.

    "The work is being done in a secret place. The second An-225 will be supplied with both new parts and parts of the damaged aircraft," said Yevhen Gavrilov, General Director of Antonov State Enterprise.

    The estimated cost of construction of the second "Mria" is 500 million euros.

    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1589699184734900224

    Half a billion Euros for a "model aircraft"!

    They're having a laugh.
    They have been looking at Games Workshop's pricing policy.
    Just received my copy of the newly published book on the origins of Games Worksop. Of particular interest to me as I worked for Citadel (the miniatures arm of GW) back in the early days before they moved everything to Nottingham and am still friends with most of the people mentioned in the book. It is an impressive success story to go from one small shop in London and a workshop in Newark to a multi-billion pound company.
    It's an amazing business. And unsung engineering heroes, too. I was an avid customer in the early days, and now, 40 years later, I'm sinking the GDP of a small country into minis since my nearly-9yo daughter discovered 40k for herself.
    For all that I have great admiration for GW, there is a vast world of alternatives out there if you find 40K stuff too expensive. Depending on where you live, come to one of our shows at Newark next year and you can get some insight into depth of the hobby.

    Also remember the legend is that you can't die until you paint your last mini. I have about 20,000 of them as insurance :smile:
    That is ... impressive.

    I painted a few minis back in my teenage years, back when everything was still cast in metal. Never made the shift to plastic.

    My collection of “White Dwarf” back issues is sadly lost to time & entropy however.
    My collection of White Dwarf back issues was thrown out by my parents while I was at uni.
    Ditto my Bond novels. My parents not yours in this case. I had every one in the pan original - a proper collection in impeccable condition that would be worth big bucks now. They disclaim knowingly getting rid of them and maybe that's true. Perhaps in the haste to transfer my room to my brother they just got permanently lost. It still gnaws at me. The not knowing is worse than the
    loss. No closure.
    What's the name of the Games Workshop book pls?
    Speaking of GW, two brand new Fighting Fantasy gamebooks were published in September.
    Not you as well?

    What's going on around here?
  • glw said:

    Just received my copy of the newly published book on the origins of Games Worksop. Of particular interest to me as I worked for Citadel (the miniatures arm of GW) back in the early days before they moved everything to Nottingham and am still friends with most of the people mentioned in the book. It is an impressive success story to go from one small shop in London and a workshop in Newark to a multi-billion pound company.

    I used to regularly go to that shop in Hammersmith with my friends when I was a kid. I loved going in there and looking through all the new things that had come in. D&D, Traveller, CofC, Citadel Minatures, and of course White Dwarf.
    I was life long friends with Duncan Macfarlane who was the General Manager at Citadel back in the early 80s when I started working for him. I then worked for him as he created Miniature Wargames and Wargames Illustrated. Sadly, I wrote the eulogy for his funeral last year.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437
    If there's another leader before the next election, who are people thinking? Not Boris, shirley? And Rishi will have burned down the 'dull competence' wing. They would need to be a 'safe' right winger which is slim pickings.

    Steve Barclay?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,568

    A fair few PBers outing themselves as geeky anoraks this evening.

    Maybe I should stay on RF where the cool kids hang out?

    Nothing geekier than identifying micro-moths.

    Well, maybe micro-fungi. We moth-ers have to look down on somebody.....
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015

    If there's another leader before the next election, who are people thinking? Not Boris, shirley? And Rishi will have burned down the 'dull competence' wing. They would need to be a 'safe' right winger which is slim pickings.

    Steve Barclay?

    Baker
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437

    If there's another leader before the next election, who are people thinking? Not Boris, shirley? And Rishi will have burned down the 'dull competence' wing. They would need to be a 'safe' right winger which is slim pickings.

    Steve Barclay?

    Baker
    Never can tell those two apart.
  • mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AlistairM said:

    That's a lot of money for a single plane. However, the An-225 was a real symbol of Ukraine's identity. It is clearly being done for the message that it sends.

    Ukraine has started construction of the second An-225 Mriya model aircraft. It will replace the legendary board, which was destroyed by the Russian invaders in Gostomel at the beginning of the invasion. According to the newspaper Bild, the new "Mriya" is already 30% ready.

    "The work is being done in a secret place. The second An-225 will be supplied with both new parts and parts of the damaged aircraft," said Yevhen Gavrilov, General Director of Antonov State Enterprise.

    The estimated cost of construction of the second "Mria" is 500 million euros.

    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1589699184734900224

    Half a billion Euros for a "model aircraft"!

    They're having a laugh.
    They have been looking at Games Workshop's pricing policy.
    Just received my copy of the newly published book on the origins of Games Worksop. Of particular interest to me as I worked for Citadel (the miniatures arm of GW) back in the early days before they moved everything to Nottingham and am still friends with most of the people mentioned in the book. It is an impressive success story to go from one small shop in London and a workshop in Newark to a multi-billion pound company.
    It's an amazing business. And unsung engineering heroes, too. I was an avid customer in the early days, and now, 40 years later, I'm sinking the GDP of a small country into minis since my nearly-9yo daughter discovered 40k for herself.
    For all that I have great admiration for GW, there is a vast world of alternatives out there if you find 40K stuff too expensive. Depending on where you live, come to one of our shows at Newark next year and you can get some insight into depth of the hobby.

    Also remember the legend is that you can't die until you paint your last mini. I have about 20,000 of them as insurance :smile:
    Newark is an easy trip from Cambridge. And I may live forever at the rate I'm painting my Crazy Battle Nuns.
    Our next show is May. We hold two a year. If you like miniatures it is worth a visit. We get people from all over the world coming to the show and games from people like the Perry Twins and Rick Priestly.

    https://www.partizan.org.uk/
  • If there's another leader before the next election, who are people thinking? Not Boris, shirley? And Rishi will have burned down the 'dull competence' wing. They would need to be a 'safe' right winger which is slim pickings.

    Steve Barclay?

    Baker
    Better than Quail.
  • A fair few PBers outing themselves as geeky anoraks this evening.

    Maybe I should stay on RF where the cool kids hang out?

    Nothing geekier than identifying micro-moths.

    Well, maybe micro-fungi. We moth-ers have to look down on somebody.....
    Micro-gricers
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,995

    TimS said:

    Macron is very good at laying on the charm with international peers when he wants to isn’t he? He went through a grumpy period, with his quasi-ineffective vaccine comments and repeated berating of the US culminating in the fuming over AUKUS (though most of the ire was pointed at Aus for that) but he seems to be back to the charm again.

    For all his imperfections the French are well led at the moment. I think he also recognises the gap in German leadership in Europe left by Merkel’s departure, and the risks and opportunities that brings.

    Utterly useless and prone to tantrums when the chips are down but good at simpering around at international symposia or whenever in the presence of a TV camera is a pretty low bar for 'well led' I would argue.
    No, the UK experience over recent years is the low bar for 'well led'.
    I'm not arguing.
    France’s economic performance during his presidency has outstripped not just the UK, Italy and other weaker economies but it’s been hot on the tail of Germany and had the strongest bounce back from Covid of sky of the major economies.

    During his tenure the scale and depth of regulatory and labour market reforms is way beyond any of his recent predecessors. Foreign investment stats have rocketed.

    He’s seen off the far right twice, and is now in a pretty much unchallenged leadership position in Europe as Scholz fails to impress and Italy naval gazes.
  • A fair few PBers outing themselves as geeky anoraks this evening.

    Maybe I should stay on RF where the cool kids hang out?

    Nothing geekier than identifying micro-moths.

    Well, maybe micro-fungi. We moth-ers have to look down on somebody.....
    Trouble is Mark you know thanks to you I am now doing both - wargames and moths. I am beyond help :)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,843
    edited November 2022

    kinabalu said:

    Phil said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AlistairM said:

    That's a lot of money for a single plane. However, the An-225 was a real symbol of Ukraine's identity. It is clearly being done for the message that it sends.

    Ukraine has started construction of the second An-225 Mriya model aircraft. It will replace the legendary board, which was destroyed by the Russian invaders in Gostomel at the beginning of the invasion. According to the newspaper Bild, the new "Mriya" is already 30% ready.

    "The work is being done in a secret place. The second An-225 will be supplied with both new parts and parts of the damaged aircraft," said Yevhen Gavrilov, General Director of Antonov State Enterprise.

    The estimated cost of construction of the second "Mria" is 500 million euros.

    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1589699184734900224

    Half a billion Euros for a "model aircraft"!

    They're having a laugh.
    They have been looking at Games Workshop's pricing policy.
    Just received my copy of the newly published book on the origins of Games Worksop. Of particular interest to me as I worked for Citadel (the miniatures arm of GW) back in the early days before they moved everything to Nottingham and am still friends with most of the people mentioned in the book. It is an impressive success story to go from one small shop in London and a workshop in Newark to a multi-billion pound company.
    It's an amazing business. And unsung engineering heroes, too. I was an avid customer in the early days, and now, 40 years later, I'm sinking the GDP of a small country into minis since my nearly-9yo daughter discovered 40k for herself.
    For all that I have great admiration for GW, there is a vast world of alternatives out there if you find 40K stuff too expensive. Depending on where you live, come to one of our shows at Newark next year and you can get some insight into depth of the hobby.

    Also remember the legend is that you can't die until you paint your last mini. I have about 20,000 of them as insurance :smile:
    That is ... impressive.

    I painted a few minis back in my teenage years, back when everything was still cast in metal. Never made the shift to plastic.

    My collection of “White Dwarf” back issues is sadly lost to time & entropy however.
    My collection of White Dwarf back issues was thrown out by my parents while I was at uni.
    Ditto my Bond novels. My parents not yours in this case. I had every one in the pan original - a proper collection in impeccable condition that would be worth big bucks now. They disclaim knowingly getting rid of them and maybe that's true. Perhaps in the haste to transfer my room to my brother they just got permanently lost. It still gnaws at me. The not knowing is worse than the
    loss. No closure.
    What's the name of the Games Workshop book pls?
    Speaking of GW, two brand new Fighting Fantasy gamebooks were published in September.
    Not you as well?

    What's going on around here?
    Ian Livingstone's "Freeway Fighter" was the first FF book I bought, way back in 1985!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969
    edited November 2022
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Macron is very good at laying on the charm with international peers when he wants to isn’t he? He went through a grumpy period, with his quasi-ineffective vaccine comments and repeated berating of the US culminating in the fuming over AUKUS (though most of the ire was pointed at Aus for that) but he seems to be back to the charm again.

    For all his imperfections the French are well led at the moment. I think he also recognises the gap in German leadership in Europe left by Merkel’s departure, and the risks and opportunities that brings.

    Utterly useless and prone to tantrums when the chips are down but good at simpering around at international symposia or whenever in the presence of a TV camera is a pretty low bar for 'well led' I would argue.
    No, the UK experience over recent years is the low bar for 'well led'.
    I'm not arguing.
    France’s economic performance during his presidency has outstripped not just the UK, Italy and other weaker economies but it’s been hot on the tail of Germany and had the strongest bounce back from Covid of sky of the major economies.

    During his tenure the scale and depth of regulatory and labour market reforms is way beyond any of his recent predecessors. Foreign investment stats have rocketed.

    He’s seen off the far right twice, and is now in a pretty much unchallenged leadership position in Europe as Scholz fails to impress and Italy naval gazes.
    Ideologically (bar Brexit) I would argue that Sunak is closer to Macron now than any other G7 leader, including Trudeau who was previously Macron's bosom buddy. Hence the warm words between the 2 today. On Brexit of course Sunak is also more willing to cooperate with the EU over NI and asylum etc than Boris and Truss were, he is more of a more dynamic May.

    Starmer if he wins the next election though will likely end up a British Scholz
  • rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Phil said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AlistairM said:

    That's a lot of money for a single plane. However, the An-225 was a real symbol of Ukraine's identity. It is clearly being done for the message that it sends.

    Ukraine has started construction of the second An-225 Mriya model aircraft. It will replace the legendary board, which was destroyed by the Russian invaders in Gostomel at the beginning of the invasion. According to the newspaper Bild, the new "Mriya" is already 30% ready.

    "The work is being done in a secret place. The second An-225 will be supplied with both new parts and parts of the damaged aircraft," said Yevhen Gavrilov, General Director of Antonov State Enterprise.

    The estimated cost of construction of the second "Mria" is 500 million euros.

    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1589699184734900224

    Half a billion Euros for a "model aircraft"!

    They're having a laugh.
    They have been looking at Games Workshop's pricing policy.
    Just received my copy of the newly published book on the origins of Games Worksop. Of particular interest to me as I worked for Citadel (the miniatures arm of GW) back in the early days before they moved everything to Nottingham and am still friends with most of the people mentioned in the book. It is an impressive success story to go from one small shop in London and a workshop in Newark to a multi-billion pound company.
    It's an amazing business. And unsung engineering heroes, too. I was an avid customer in the early days, and now, 40 years later, I'm sinking the GDP of a small country into minis since my nearly-9yo daughter discovered 40k for herself.
    For all that I have great admiration for GW, there is a vast world of alternatives out there if you find 40K stuff too expensive. Depending on where you live, come to one of our shows at Newark next year and you can get some insight into depth of the hobby.

    Also remember the legend is that you can't die until you paint your last mini. I have about 20,000 of them as insurance :smile:
    That is ... impressive.

    I painted a few minis back in my teenage years, back when everything was still cast in metal. Never made the shift to plastic.

    My collection of “White Dwarf” back issues is sadly lost to time & entropy however.
    My collection of White Dwarf back issues was thrown out by my parents while I was at uni.
    Ditto my Bond novels. My parents not yours in this case. I had every one in the pan original - a proper collection in impeccable condition that would be worth big bucks now. They disclaim knowingly getting rid of them and maybe that's true. Perhaps in the haste to transfer my room to my brother they just got permanently lost. It still gnaws at me. The not knowing is worse than the
    loss. No closure.
    What's the name of the Games Workshop book pls?
    Dice Men, I think.

    I'm friends with Ian Livingston, from when he worked at Eidos and I covered it at Goldman Sachs.
    Oh thanks. That book is definitely going on Santa's list.

    I had a first issue of White Dwarf, but somehow my brother has ended up with it. Grr...

  • A fair few PBers outing themselves as geeky anoraks this evening.

    Maybe I should stay on RF where the cool kids hang out?

    You can add Nick Palmer to that list as well. He oftens mentions his love of board games.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    I don't think this was mentioned earlier. Turkey blocked Russian warships (all the way from Vladivostok) from entering the Black Sea. Turkey is now the major naval power in the Black Sea. Russia's Black Sea fleet is slowly being destroyed and they cannot restore it.

    Turkey blocked entrance to two Russian warships trough the Bosporus. Cruiser Varyag and destroyer Admiral Tributs were heading to the Black Sea but have now returned to Vladivostok.
    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1589682036557520896
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906

    glw said:

    Just received my copy of the newly published book on the origins of Games Worksop. Of particular interest to me as I worked for Citadel (the miniatures arm of GW) back in the early days before they moved everything to Nottingham and am still friends with most of the people mentioned in the book. It is an impressive success story to go from one small shop in London and a workshop in Newark to a multi-billion pound company.

    I used to regularly go to that shop in Hammersmith with my friends when I was a kid. I loved going in there and looking through all the new things that had come in. D&D, Traveller, CofC, Citadel Minatures, and of course White Dwarf.
    I was life long friends with Duncan Macfarlane who was the General Manager at Citadel back in the early 80s when I started working for him. I then worked for him as he created Miniature Wargames and Wargames Illustrated. Sadly, I wrote the eulogy for his funeral last year.
    We used to love gawking at the minatures on display in that shop. We'd easy spend an hour or so there, and it wasn't a big shop. At the very least I'd come away with the latest White Dwarf, which as you mentioned was full of gaming reviews, articles, and news in general, not just Games Workshop. I particularly liked David Langford's book reviews, a very smart and funny guy. It must have been a lot of fun to be working with that group of people back then.
  • HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Macron is very good at laying on the charm with international peers when he wants to isn’t he? He went through a grumpy period, with his quasi-ineffective vaccine comments and repeated berating of the US culminating in the fuming over AUKUS (though most of the ire was pointed at Aus for that) but he seems to be back to the charm again.

    For all his imperfections the French are well led at the moment. I think he also recognises the gap in German leadership in Europe left by Merkel’s departure, and the risks and opportunities that brings.

    Utterly useless and prone to tantrums when the chips are down but good at simpering around at international symposia or whenever in the presence of a TV camera is a pretty low bar for 'well led' I would argue.
    No, the UK experience over recent years is the low bar for 'well led'.
    I'm not arguing.
    France’s economic performance during his presidency has outstripped not just the UK, Italy and other weaker economies but it’s been hot on the tail of Germany and had the strongest bounce back from Covid of sky of the major economies.

    During his tenure the scale and depth of regulatory and labour market reforms is way beyond any of his recent predecessors. Foreign investment stats have rocketed.

    He’s seen off the far right twice, and is now in a pretty much unchallenged leadership position in Europe as Scholz fails to impress and Italy naval gazes.
    Ideologically (bar Brexit) I would argue that Sunak is closer to Macron now than any other G7 leader, including Trudeau who was previously Macron's bosom buddy. Hence the warm words between the 2 today. On Brexit of course Sunak is also more willing to cooperate with the EU over NI and asylum etc than Boris and Truss were, he is more of a more dynamic May
    He is the only chance that the conservatives have got of mitigating the damage in 24
  • glw said:

    glw said:

    Just received my copy of the newly published book on the origins of Games Worksop. Of particular interest to me as I worked for Citadel (the miniatures arm of GW) back in the early days before they moved everything to Nottingham and am still friends with most of the people mentioned in the book. It is an impressive success story to go from one small shop in London and a workshop in Newark to a multi-billion pound company.

    I used to regularly go to that shop in Hammersmith with my friends when I was a kid. I loved going in there and looking through all the new things that had come in. D&D, Traveller, CofC, Citadel Minatures, and of course White Dwarf.
    I was life long friends with Duncan Macfarlane who was the General Manager at Citadel back in the early 80s when I started working for him. I then worked for him as he created Miniature Wargames and Wargames Illustrated. Sadly, I wrote the eulogy for his funeral last year.
    We used to love gawking at the minatures on display in that shop. We'd easy spend an hour or so there, and it wasn't a big shop. At the very least I'd come away with the latest White Dwarf, which as you mentioned was full of gaming reviews, articles, and news in general, not just Games Workshop. I particularly liked David Langford's book reviews, a very smart and funny guy. It must have been a lot of fun to be working with that group of people back then.
    It was. I could have gone down that route for a career but I wasn't really creative enough then to have anything to contribute. I am still friends with them all now although we are all approaching or past retirement age.
  • glw said:

    glw said:

    Just received my copy of the newly published book on the origins of Games Worksop. Of particular interest to me as I worked for Citadel (the miniatures arm of GW) back in the early days before they moved everything to Nottingham and am still friends with most of the people mentioned in the book. It is an impressive success story to go from one small shop in London and a workshop in Newark to a multi-billion pound company.

    I used to regularly go to that shop in Hammersmith with my friends when I was a kid. I loved going in there and looking through all the new things that had come in. D&D, Traveller, CofC, Citadel Minatures, and of course White Dwarf.
    I was life long friends with Duncan Macfarlane who was the General Manager at Citadel back in the early 80s when I started working for him. I then worked for him as he created Miniature Wargames and Wargames Illustrated. Sadly, I wrote the eulogy for his funeral last year.
    We used to love gawking at the minatures on display in that shop. We'd easy spend an hour or so there, and it wasn't a big shop. At the very least I'd come away with the latest White Dwarf, which as you mentioned was full of gaming reviews, articles, and news in general, not just Games Workshop. I particularly liked David Langford's book reviews, a very smart and funny guy. It must have been a lot of fun to be working with that group of people back then.
    Back in the day there was a war games shop on Summer Row, Birmingham. Tiny place. I spent hours in there.

  • WCPO 9
    @WCPO
    ·
    2h
    REPORTS: Donald Trump may announce his run for president in 2024 at the Dayton, Ohio rally scheduled for tonight: https://wcpo.com/news/government/elections-national/reports-trump-may-announce-presidential-run-at-dayton-rally
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,662

    A fair few PBers outing themselves as geeky anoraks this evening.

    Maybe I should stay on RF where the cool kids hang out?

    You can add Nick Palmer to that list as well. He oftens mentions his love of board games.
    He literally wrote the book on hex based gaming. I was big on those at one time and there are some great electronic versions of the games on Google play by Joni Nuutinen. It helps to know the board version as otherwise rules a bit opaque.
  • A fair few PBers outing themselves as geeky anoraks this evening.

    Maybe I should stay on RF where the cool kids hang out?

    You can add Nick Palmer to that list as well. He oftens mentions his love of board games.
    Diplomacy in particular iirc.
  • So, apart from the Russian trolls, we are all board or war gamers as well as betting nuts?

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    Real outlier poll.

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1589673497726705665
    Generic Congressional Ballot:

    Democrats 48% (+5)
    Republicans 43%

    .@MorningConsult/@Politico, 2,005 RV, 11/4-5
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,568

    A fair few PBers outing themselves as geeky anoraks this evening.

    Maybe I should stay on RF where the cool kids hang out?

    You can add Nick Palmer to that list as well. He oftens mentions his love of board games.
    Following the Louis Theroux programme, you can add Stormzy to that list.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906

    It was. I could have gone down that route for a career but I wasn't really creative enough then to have anything to contribute. I am still friends with them all now although we are all approaching or past retirement age.

    Most people probably measure their careers by the years, or the money, but they can truly measure their careers by the fun their customers had. The shops, the games, the minatures, the magazine. That it turned into something commercially successful is the icing on the cake.
  • A fair few PBers outing themselves as geeky anoraks this evening.

    Maybe I should stay on RF where the cool kids hang out?

    You can add Nick Palmer to that list as well. He oftens mentions his love of board games.
    Following the Louis Theroux programme, you can add Stormzy to that list.
    And of course Henry Cavill is a GW fanatic.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664

    So, apart from the Russian trolls, we are all board or war gamers as well as betting nuts?

    We've just started a board games evening in our village, so count me in!

    (Though tbf, I don't actually bet)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648
    edited November 2022
    Katy Perry votes Republican, saying that “Los Angeles is a hot mess at the moment”.

    image
  • So, apart from the Russian trolls, we are all board or war gamers as well as betting nuts?

    Goes to show there is far more that unites us than divides us even if we don't know it :)

    That makes me very happy.
  • AlistairM said:

    Wow, Macron and Sunak are really loved up.

    Tuesday's The Times - Welfare and pensions set to rise with inflation. @thetimes | #TomorrowsPapersToday | #FrontPages

    https://twitter.com/FirstEdition/status/1589745680243101697

    Are they about to French kiss?
    The Spirit of Glasgow bursts in with his own type of kiss.


  • A fair few PBers outing themselves as geeky anoraks this evening.

    Maybe I should stay on RF where the cool kids hang out?

    You can add Nick Palmer to that list as well. He oftens mentions his love of board games.
    Following the Louis Theroux programme, you can add Stormzy to that list.
    And of course Henry Cavill is a GW fanatic.
    Isn't Mark E Smith a wargamer?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906

    Back in the day there was a war games shop on Summer Row, Birmingham. Tiny place. I spent hours in there.

    Nobody ever hassled you to buy anything, or even pester you to see if you needed help. It was just accepted that you could go in, and spend as much time as you liked looking through everything, so we did. :)
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,872
    carnforth said:

    People I now hate:

    Bastards with snappy/stiff letterboxes. If you have a snappy outer flap, a thick rug in between, and a stiff inner flap, then I hate I hate your Mum as well.

    Arseholes with below knee height letterboxes. Lots of fun when carrying a big bag of mail over the shoulder. Why have it so fucking low? I despise you people

    People who demarcate their doorstep. When I could walk one step from letterbox to letterbox - sometimes in a semi that shares the same bit of concrete for a doorstep - some fuckers put a barrier that makes me walk an extra twenty metres between those letterboxes. Despicable twats.

    Lazy shits that won't put a house number somewhere visible. Those dicks don't deserve mail.

    Wankers who take five minutes to come to the door when it's pissing down with rain.

    Don't be one of them

    Vertical letterboxes too. Especially those with the hinge at the top.
    Considering that 99% of what you probably deliver is junk mail why do you expect them to make it easy.
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792
    Foxy said:

    A fair few PBers outing themselves as geeky anoraks this evening.

    Maybe I should stay on RF where the cool kids hang out?

    You can add Nick Palmer to that list as well. He oftens mentions his love of board games.
    He literally wrote the book on hex based gaming. I was big on those at one time and there are some great electronic versions of the games on Google play by Joni Nuutinen. It helps to know the board version as otherwise rules a bit opaque.
    I wonder whether Nick's Strike game is any good.

    Quiz question. Who designed this boardgame? Clue: he had a big influence on the events in France in May 1968 and wrote about, ooh, Machiavelli and Clausewitz and stuff.

    image
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited November 2022

    So, apart from the Russian trolls, we are all board or war gamers as well as betting nuts?

    Count me out. I’ve never understood the attraction of the war hammer thing.

    Just makes no sense to me!

    Strategy/board games, like risk, are occasionally enjoyable, but get boring quite quickly, once I’ve figured out the optimum strategy in various scenarios. Variance doesn’t excite me, I think that’s my problem.
  • A fair few PBers outing themselves as geeky anoraks this evening.

    Maybe I should stay on RF where the cool kids hang out?

    You can add Nick Palmer to that list as well. He oftens mentions his love of board games.
    Following the Louis Theroux programme, you can add Stormzy to that list.
    And of course Henry Cavill is a GW fanatic.
    Isn't Mark E Smith a wargamer?
    He was yes. Also from a previous generation both Peter Cushing and Edward Woodward
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,662
    Foxy said:

    A fair few PBers outing themselves as geeky anoraks this evening.

    Maybe I should stay on RF where the cool kids hang out?

    You can add Nick Palmer to that list as well. He oftens mentions his love of board games.
    He literally wrote the book on hex based gaming. I was big on those at one time and there are some great electronic versions of the games on Google play by Joni Nuutinen. It helps to know the board version as otherwise rules a bit opaque.
    Here it is: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Comprehensive_Guide_to_Board_Wargaming



  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931
    glw said:

    Back in the day there was a war games shop on Summer Row, Birmingham. Tiny place. I spent hours in there.

    Nobody ever hassled you to buy anything, or even pester you to see if you needed help. It was just accepted that you could go in, and spend as much time as you liked looking through everything, so we did. :)
    If any of you geeks find yourselves in the West of Scotland …….
    https://www.busstoptoyshop.com/index.html
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,568

    A fair few PBers outing themselves as geeky anoraks this evening.

    Maybe I should stay on RF where the cool kids hang out?

    Nothing geekier than identifying micro-moths.

    Well, maybe micro-fungi. We moth-ers have to look down on somebody.....
    Trouble is Mark you know thanks to you I am now doing both - wargames and moths. I am beyond help :)
    Geek Squared!
  • Katy Perry votes Republican, saying that “Los Angeles is a hot mess at the moment”.

    image

    Trouble is that voting Republican can mean two very different things in the US these days depending on who the candidate is. Is the GOP mayoral candidate in LA a Trumpite or one of the anti-Trump republicans?
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,593

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AlistairM said:

    That's a lot of money for a single plane. However, the An-225 was a real symbol of Ukraine's identity. It is clearly being done for the message that it sends.

    Ukraine has started construction of the second An-225 Mriya model aircraft. It will replace the legendary board, which was destroyed by the Russian invaders in Gostomel at the beginning of the invasion. According to the newspaper Bild, the new "Mriya" is already 30% ready.

    "The work is being done in a secret place. The second An-225 will be supplied with both new parts and parts of the damaged aircraft," said Yevhen Gavrilov, General Director of Antonov State Enterprise.

    The estimated cost of construction of the second "Mria" is 500 million euros.

    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1589699184734900224

    Half a billion Euros for a "model aircraft"!

    They're having a laugh.
    They have been looking at Games Workshop's pricing policy.
    Just received my copy of the newly published book on the origins of Games Worksop. Of particular interest to me as I worked for Citadel (the miniatures arm of GW) back in the early days before they moved everything to Nottingham and am still friends with most of the people mentioned in the book. It is an impressive success story to go from one small shop in London and a workshop in Newark to a multi-billion pound company.
    It's an amazing business. And unsung engineering heroes, too. I was an avid customer in the early days, and now, 40 years later, I'm sinking the GDP of a small country into minis since my nearly-9yo daughter discovered 40k for herself.
    For all that I have great admiration for GW, there is a vast world of alternatives out there if you find 40K stuff too expensive. Depending on where you live, come to one of our shows at Newark next year and you can get some insight into depth of the hobby.

    Also remember the legend is that you can't die until you paint your last mini. I have about 20,000 of them as insurance :smile:
    Newark is an easy trip from Cambridge. And I may live forever at the rate I'm painting my Crazy Battle Nuns.
    Our next show is May. We hold two a year. If you like miniatures it is worth a visit. We get people from all over the world coming to the show and games from people like the Perry Twins and Rick Priestly.

    https://www.partizan.org.uk/
    I've bookmarked that and will definitely see if I can make it.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332
    AlistairM said:

    I don't think this was mentioned earlier. Turkey blocked Russian warships (all the way from Vladivostok) from entering the Black Sea. Turkey is now the major naval power in the Black Sea. Russia's Black Sea fleet is slowly being destroyed and they cannot restore it.

    Turkey blocked entrance to two Russian warships trough the Bosporus. Cruiser Varyag and destroyer Admiral Tributs were heading to the Black Sea but have now returned to Vladivostok.
    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1589682036557520896

    If this is the case, its just the logical outworking of the situation that had established itself some time ago. The Turks are the guarantor on the Bosphorus traffic so always had the ability to do this. I said a week or so ago that a count of the Turkish vessels in the Black Sea itself would tell you plenty about what is happening. The Turks are escorting the grain vessels and have a notable presence, one that the Russians arent in the business of upsetting, and the Turks are unlikely to let them reinforce.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,160
    AlistairM said:

    Wow, Macron and Sunak are really loved up.

    Tuesday's The Times - Welfare and pensions set to rise with inflation. @thetimes | #TomorrowsPapersToday | #FrontPages

    https://twitter.com/FirstEdition/status/1589745680243101697

    If you have an Only Fans account, you can see the full uncensored photos.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,662
    ping said:

    So, apart from the Russian trolls, we are all board or war gamers as well as betting nuts?

    Count me out. I’ve never understood the attraction of the war hammer thing.

    Just makes no sense to me!

    Strategy/board games, like risk, are occasionally enjoyable, but get boring quite quickly, once I’ve figured out the optimum strategy in various scenarios. Variance doesn’t excite me, I think that’s my problem.
    Fox Jr did Warhammer for a bit, but prefered D and D. My taste was for the more historical games by SPI and Avalon Hill. I still have my Squad Leader with all expansions, albeit hidden in the back of the wardrobe so Mrs Foxy can't find it and chuck it out.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    I know rcs1000 thinks it unlikely but I'm sticking with 51 GOP seats tomorrow.
  • Roger said:

    I've just seen Herschel Walker on Ch4 standing for election in Georgia. I did some fashion shots with him in New Orleans when he was acting as a prop with a couple of fashion models. He played for a team nicknamed the Dogs I think and there was an even more famous quarter back whose name escapes me. The funny and disappointing thing is that they're now describing him as a right wing anti abortionist God fearing zealot.

    Queue up here Geogians for some Herschel Walker stories!

    Team that Hershel Walker played for - or rather was an outstanding star for - was the University of Georgia "Bulldogs". Prior to a long career with the NFL.

    Something that pundits beyond the bounds of the Peach State are failing to take into account, is that stories about serial & seriously bad behavior by Hershel Walker the Sporting Legend are NOT a new thing for most Georgia voters. More like par for the course.

    Which is of course NOT what you'd call electoral credentials per se.

    On other hand, also NOT as shocking to Georgians as might be expected. Regardless of his political orientation and rhetoric.

    As for the latter, plenty of folks from Okefenokee to Rabun Gap, of varying parties, races, creeds, are firm believers in redemption. Often to lengths incomprehensible to cynical Yankees, let alone totally pagan UKers.

    With respect to Walker v Warnock, my own guess is that the X factor that decides the race - either outright in the general OR in a December runoff - is the percentage of the Black vote that ends up going NOT to the Black incumbent, but instead to the Black challenger.

  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,999
    If you are interested in a scientific discussion of climate science, you might want to read Steven E. Koonin's "Unsettled".
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    edited November 2022

    Katy Perry votes Republican, saying that “Los Angeles is a hot mess at the moment”.

    image

    Trouble is that voting Republican can mean two very different things in the US these days depending on who the candidate is. Is the GOP mayoral candidate in LA a Trumpite or one of the anti-Trump republicans?
    Wikipedia says both candidates are Democrats now. Or at least registered as such.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    AlistairM said:

    I don't think this was mentioned earlier. Turkey blocked Russian warships (all the way from Vladivostok) from entering the Black Sea. Turkey is now the major naval power in the Black Sea. Russia's Black Sea fleet is slowly being destroyed and they cannot restore it.

    Turkey blocked entrance to two Russian warships trough the Bosporus. Cruiser Varyag and destroyer Admiral Tributs were heading to the Black Sea but have now returned to Vladivostok.
    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1589682036557520896

    Another thing not mentioned here much, Turkey’s use of the NATO veto.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/turkey-says-sweden-finland-not-yet-done-enough-under-nato-deal-2022-11-03/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    edited November 2022

    AlistairM said:

    I don't think this was mentioned earlier. Turkey blocked Russian warships (all the way from Vladivostok) from entering the Black Sea. Turkey is now the major naval power in the Black Sea. Russia's Black Sea fleet is slowly being destroyed and they cannot restore it.

    Turkey blocked entrance to two Russian warships trough the Bosporus. Cruiser Varyag and destroyer Admiral Tributs were heading to the Black Sea but have now returned to Vladivostok.
    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1589682036557520896

    Another thing not mentioned here much, Turkey’s use of the NATO veto.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/turkey-says-sweden-finland-not-yet-done-enough-under-nato-deal-2022-11-03/
    Not much to talk about is there? Turkey plans to extract as much as it can to not exercise a veto, but is it in their interest to actually use it?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648

    Katy Perry votes Republican, saying that “Los Angeles is a hot mess at the moment”.

    image

    Trouble is that voting Republican can mean two very different things in the US these days depending on who the candidate is. Is the GOP mayoral candidate in LA a Trumpite or one of the anti-Trump republicans?
    Technically he switched parties just before launching his campaign so he’s an opportunist.

    https://twitter.com/karenbassla/status/1588909753563942914
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    edited November 2022

    AlistairM said:

    Wow, Macron and Sunak are really loved up.

    Tuesday's The Times - Welfare and pensions set to rise with inflation. @thetimes | #TomorrowsPapersToday | #FrontPages

    https://twitter.com/FirstEdition/status/1589745680243101697

    Are they about to French kiss?
    And there was me looking at the headline and wondering if the triple lock is safe.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,160

    Katy Perry votes Republican, saying that “Los Angeles is a hot mess at the moment”.

    image

    Rick Caruso is running as a Democrat
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Katy Perry votes Republican, saying that “Los Angeles is a hot mess at the moment”.

    image

    Trouble is that voting Republican can mean two very different things in the US these days depending on who the candidate is. Is the GOP mayoral candidate in LA a Trumpite or one of the anti-Trump republicans?
    Technically he switched parties just before launching his campaign so he’s an opportunist.

    https://twitter.com/karenbassla/status/1588909753563942914
    I kind of love this 'I'll just register as X and then run' approach to things. Haven't some places been even more brazen in standing as X even though they are Y?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    Scott_xP said:

    Exclusive

    A major UK-US energy deal is set to be struck, with billions of cubic metres of liquified gas imported into UK.

    An “energy security partnership”. Due after Cop27. Could ease winter supply fears. To be hailed as move away from Russian exports.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/07/rishi-sunak-strike-gas-deal-us-ease-energy-crisis/

    I’ve talked to half a dozen current and former UK government figures familiar with negotiations.

    Deal was so close to being done Downing St hoped to announce it in the week Liz Truss resigned.

    Truss and Biden personally discussed the deal (a sign of its perceived importance).

    The Norway deal collapsed because of the price Norway wanted. There might be more to it, IF Norwegians have other prospected buyers would push up the price.

    What’s the pricing details on the US deal? and will distance inflate logistical costs much more than from Norway?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    AlistairM said:

    mwadams said:

    Phil said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AlistairM said:

    That's a lot of money for a single plane. However, the An-225 was a real symbol of Ukraine's identity. It is clearly being done for the message that it sends.

    Ukraine has started construction of the second An-225 Mriya model aircraft. It will replace the legendary board, which was destroyed by the Russian invaders in Gostomel at the beginning of the invasion. According to the newspaper Bild, the new "Mriya" is already 30% ready.

    "The work is being done in a secret place. The second An-225 will be supplied with both new parts and parts of the damaged aircraft," said Yevhen Gavrilov, General Director of Antonov State Enterprise.

    The estimated cost of construction of the second "Mria" is 500 million euros.

    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1589699184734900224

    Half a billion Euros for a "model aircraft"!

    They're having a laugh.
    They have been looking at Games Workshop's pricing policy.
    Just received my copy of the newly published book on the origins of Games Worksop. Of particular interest to me as I worked for Citadel (the miniatures arm of GW) back in the early days before they moved everything to Nottingham and am still friends with most of the people mentioned in the book. It is an impressive success story to go from one small shop in London and a workshop in Newark to a multi-billion pound company.
    It's an amazing business. And unsung engineering heroes, too. I was an avid customer in the early days, and now, 40 years later, I'm sinking the GDP of a small country into minis since my nearly-9yo daughter discovered 40k for herself.
    For all that I have great admiration for GW, there is a vast world of alternatives out there if you find 40K stuff too expensive. Depending on where you live, come to one of our shows at Newark next year and you can get some insight into depth of the hobby.

    Also remember the legend is that you can't die until you paint your last mini. I have about 20,000 of them as insurance :smile:
    That is ... impressive.

    I painted a few minis back in my teenage years, back when everything was still cast in metal. Never made the shift to plastic.

    My collection of “White Dwarf” back issues is sadly lost to time & entropy however.
    My collection of White Dwarf back issues was thrown out by my parents while I was at uni.
    I loved the early years when it used to cover more than just GW stuff but when it just became an in house magazine I lost interest.
    I always preferred the more niche games than the main collecting an army ones. Started off with Hero Quest and Space Crusade in the 80s, then Blood Bowl and Warhammer Quest in the 90s. Utterly loved Blood Bowl and at one stage I think I had just about every team available.

    This century I've sometimes collected miniatures, but its just for the hobby of painting them now not actually playing the games in person anymore.
    I started a narrative game with my daughter at the weekend. It's a lot of fun playing with her.

    I also like Blood Bowl - and we got Aeronautica last Xmas which is a great hex-based game (with tiny planes to paint)
    What I love about PB is how a post mentioning the creation of a new An-225 can easily segue onto Games Workshop, Warhammer 40K and Blood Bowl in the blink of an eye. It really is a giant smorgasbord of geeks of all different inclinations.
    It’s way over my head, it must be a 1980s zit faced boy thing 🤷‍♀️

    I’ve never even owned a game console.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Katy Perry votes Republican, saying that “Los Angeles is a hot mess at the moment”.

    image

    Rick Caruso is running as a Democrat
    Both are.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    kle4 said:

    AlistairM said:

    I don't think this was mentioned earlier. Turkey blocked Russian warships (all the way from Vladivostok) from entering the Black Sea. Turkey is now the major naval power in the Black Sea. Russia's Black Sea fleet is slowly being destroyed and they cannot restore it.

    Turkey blocked entrance to two Russian warships trough the Bosporus. Cruiser Varyag and destroyer Admiral Tributs were heading to the Black Sea but have now returned to Vladivostok.
    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1589682036557520896

    Another thing not mentioned here much, Turkey’s use of the NATO veto.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/turkey-says-sweden-finland-not-yet-done-enough-under-nato-deal-2022-11-03/
    Not much to talk about is there? Turkey plans to extract as much as it can to not exercise a veto, but is it in their interest to actually use it?
    Ankara demanded that the Nordic countries stop supporting Kurdish armed groups, such as the PKK, and lift their bans on the sales of some arms to Turkey.
    Turkey raised concerns that Sweden had been harbouring PKK members, which Stockholm denied.

    Are the Nordic countries really that close to the Kurdish separatists?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    AlistairM said:

    mwadams said:

    Phil said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AlistairM said:

    That's a lot of money for a single plane. However, the An-225 was a real symbol of Ukraine's identity. It is clearly being done for the message that it sends.

    Ukraine has started construction of the second An-225 Mriya model aircraft. It will replace the legendary board, which was destroyed by the Russian invaders in Gostomel at the beginning of the invasion. According to the newspaper Bild, the new "Mriya" is already 30% ready.

    "The work is being done in a secret place. The second An-225 will be supplied with both new parts and parts of the damaged aircraft," said Yevhen Gavrilov, General Director of Antonov State Enterprise.

    The estimated cost of construction of the second "Mria" is 500 million euros.

    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1589699184734900224

    Half a billion Euros for a "model aircraft"!

    They're having a laugh.
    They have been looking at Games Workshop's pricing policy.
    Just received my copy of the newly published book on the origins of Games Worksop. Of particular interest to me as I worked for Citadel (the miniatures arm of GW) back in the early days before they moved everything to Nottingham and am still friends with most of the people mentioned in the book. It is an impressive success story to go from one small shop in London and a workshop in Newark to a multi-billion pound company.
    It's an amazing business. And unsung engineering heroes, too. I was an avid customer in the early days, and now, 40 years later, I'm sinking the GDP of a small country into minis since my nearly-9yo daughter discovered 40k for herself.
    For all that I have great admiration for GW, there is a vast world of alternatives out there if you find 40K stuff too expensive. Depending on where you live, come to one of our shows at Newark next year and you can get some insight into depth of the hobby.

    Also remember the legend is that you can't die until you paint your last mini. I have about 20,000 of them as insurance :smile:
    That is ... impressive.

    I painted a few minis back in my teenage years, back when everything was still cast in metal. Never made the shift to plastic.

    My collection of “White Dwarf” back issues is sadly lost to time & entropy however.
    My collection of White Dwarf back issues was thrown out by my parents while I was at uni.
    I loved the early years when it used to cover more than just GW stuff but when it just became an in house magazine I lost interest.
    I always preferred the more niche games than the main collecting an army ones. Started off with Hero Quest and Space Crusade in the 80s, then Blood Bowl and Warhammer Quest in the 90s. Utterly loved Blood Bowl and at one stage I think I had just about every team available.

    This century I've sometimes collected miniatures, but its just for the hobby of painting them now not actually playing the games in person anymore.
    I started a narrative game with my daughter at the weekend. It's a lot of fun playing with her.

    I also like Blood Bowl - and we got Aeronautica last Xmas which is a great hex-based game (with tiny planes to paint)
    What I love about PB is how a post mentioning the creation of a new An-225 can easily segue onto Games Workshop, Warhammer 40K and Blood Bowl in the blink of an eye. It really is a giant smorgasbord of geeks of all different inclinations.
    It’s way over my head, it must be a 1980s zit faced boy thing 🤷‍♀️

    I’ve never even owned a game console.
    I haven’t played a computer game since 1996.

    In theory I like the idea of something like Europa Universalis but I fear getting sucked in and not emerging back into real life for months.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,593

    AlistairM said:

    mwadams said:

    Phil said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AlistairM said:

    That's a lot of money for a single plane. However, the An-225 was a real symbol of Ukraine's identity. It is clearly being done for the message that it sends.

    Ukraine has started construction of the second An-225 Mriya model aircraft. It will replace the legendary board, which was destroyed by the Russian invaders in Gostomel at the beginning of the invasion. According to the newspaper Bild, the new "Mriya" is already 30% ready.

    "The work is being done in a secret place. The second An-225 will be supplied with both new parts and parts of the damaged aircraft," said Yevhen Gavrilov, General Director of Antonov State Enterprise.

    The estimated cost of construction of the second "Mria" is 500 million euros.

    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1589699184734900224

    Half a billion Euros for a "model aircraft"!

    They're having a laugh.
    They have been looking at Games Workshop's pricing policy.
    Just received my copy of the newly published book on the origins of Games Worksop. Of particular interest to me as I worked for Citadel (the miniatures arm of GW) back in the early days before they moved everything to Nottingham and am still friends with most of the people mentioned in the book. It is an impressive success story to go from one small shop in London and a workshop in Newark to a multi-billion pound company.
    It's an amazing business. And unsung engineering heroes, too. I was an avid customer in the early days, and now, 40 years later, I'm sinking the GDP of a small country into minis since my nearly-9yo daughter discovered 40k for herself.
    For all that I have great admiration for GW, there is a vast world of alternatives out there if you find 40K stuff too expensive. Depending on where you live, come to one of our shows at Newark next year and you can get some insight into depth of the hobby.

    Also remember the legend is that you can't die until you paint your last mini. I have about 20,000 of them as insurance :smile:
    That is ... impressive.

    I painted a few minis back in my teenage years, back when everything was still cast in metal. Never made the shift to plastic.

    My collection of “White Dwarf” back issues is sadly lost to time & entropy however.
    My collection of White Dwarf back issues was thrown out by my parents while I was at uni.
    I loved the early years when it used to cover more than just GW stuff but when it just became an in house magazine I lost interest.
    I always preferred the more niche games than the main collecting an army ones. Started off with Hero Quest and Space Crusade in the 80s, then Blood Bowl and Warhammer Quest in the 90s. Utterly loved Blood Bowl and at one stage I think I had just about every team available.

    This century I've sometimes collected miniatures, but its just for the hobby of painting them now not actually playing the games in person anymore.
    I started a narrative game with my daughter at the weekend. It's a lot of fun playing with her.

    I also like Blood Bowl - and we got Aeronautica last Xmas which is a great hex-based game (with tiny planes to paint)
    What I love about PB is how a post mentioning the creation of a new An-225 can easily segue onto Games Workshop, Warhammer 40K and Blood Bowl in the blink of an eye. It really is a giant smorgasbord of geeks of all different inclinations.
    It’s way over my head, it must be a 1980s zit faced boy thing 🤷‍♀️

    I’ve never even owned a game console.
    Around these parts, it is a non-zitty 9yo girl of the 2020s thing.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,160

    Katy Perry votes Republican, saying that “Los Angeles is a hot mess at the moment”.

    image

    Trouble is that voting Republican can mean two very different things in the US these days depending on who the candidate is. Is the GOP mayoral candidate in LA a Trumpite or one of the anti-Trump republicans?
    Technically he switched parties just before launching his campaign so he’s an opportunist.

    https://twitter.com/karenbassla/status/1588909753563942914
    He's also backed by about half the Democrats on the City Council.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437
    rcs1000 said:

    AlistairM said:

    Wow, Macron and Sunak are really loved up.

    Tuesday's The Times - Welfare and pensions set to rise with inflation. @thetimes | #TomorrowsPapersToday | #FrontPages

    https://twitter.com/FirstEdition/status/1589745680243101697

    If you have an Only Fans account, you can see the full uncensored photos.
    I certainly hope he's not depending on that to plug the fiscal gap.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507

    rcs1000 said:

    Katy Perry votes Republican, saying that “Los Angeles is a hot mess at the moment”.

    image

    Rick Caruso is running as a Democrat
    Both are.
    But only one with GOP form.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2022/08/30/rick-caruso-mayor-los-angeles-00054118
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,999
    Here's evidence that many Americans like divided government:

    According to Morning Consult, 4 of the 10 most popular governors head states where they face legislatures controlled by the opposing party: Charlie Baker (R, Massachusetts), Phil Scott (R, Vermont), Larry Hogan (R, Maryland), and Andy Bashear (D, Kentucky).

    (Of the 10 most popular governors, 9 are Republicans: https://morningconsult.com/2022/10/11/whitmers-approval-ticks-up-in-michigan-ahead-of-midterms/ The least popular, by far, is Kate Brown (D, Oregon).)
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,668
    edited November 2022

    A fair few PBers outing themselves as geeky anoraks this evening.

    Maybe I should stay on RF where the cool kids hang out?

    Nothing geekier than identifying micro-moths.

    Well, maybe micro-fungi. We moth-ers have to look down on somebody.....
    Trouble is Mark you know thanks to you I am now doing both - wargames and moths. I am beyond help :)
    Whatever you do, don't go down the Brambles or Hawkweeds route...


    Another board games fan here, although long "retired".

    The game I played most was called Titan, originally an Avalon Hill production I think. Like many of the genre it involved an awful lot of dice (and therefore probability calculations). I believe my original set is quite sought after now.

    Did once enter a Monopoly competition with a few hundred competitors and got to the final game but lost when 3 players "agreed" to split the prize and concocted a win for one of their number. The chosen winner then kept all the money to himself (about £500 - a decent amount to a student in the 90s). No doubt he went on to be something in politics...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648
    rcs1000 said:

    Katy Perry votes Republican, saying that “Los Angeles is a hot mess at the moment”.

    image

    Trouble is that voting Republican can mean two very different things in the US these days depending on who the candidate is. Is the GOP mayoral candidate in LA a Trumpite or one of the anti-Trump republicans?
    Technically he switched parties just before launching his campaign so he’s an opportunist.

    https://twitter.com/karenbassla/status/1588909753563942914
    He's also backed by about half the Democrats on the City Council.
    When I made the original post I was confused by people calling him just a Republican.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,668
    edited November 2022
    Boundary review is now out:
    https://www.bcereviews.org.uk/

    A quick look at the Flatlands shows that most of the newly Tory constituency of Don Valley (including the airport) has moved in with Lincolnshire. Might stay blue? The rest is in with Doncaster Central.

    Doncaster North looks more rural than before but given the current polling, Ed will stay.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,160

    Here's evidence that many Americans like divided government:

    According to Morning Consult, 4 of the 10 most popular governors head states where they face legislatures controlled by the opposing party: Charlie Baker (R, Massachusetts), Phil Scott (R, Vermont), Larry Hogan (R, Maryland), and Andy Bashear (D, Kentucky).

    (Of the 10 most popular governors, 9 are Republicans: https://morningconsult.com/2022/10/11/whitmers-approval-ticks-up-in-michigan-ahead-of-midterms/ The least popular, by far, is Kate Brown (D, Oregon).)

    The most popular Governors are RINOs!
This discussion has been closed.