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Will the Truss link be as damaging to the CON brand as Corbyn was to LAB? – politicalbetting.com

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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 7,213

    A thought on the polls and the 'narrative'. Opinium has given some column inches on 'comeback' from the usual suspects, but tonights Redfield might be interesting. Thursday saw almost no movement compared to the others and indeed Redfield are now the upper end outlier, more than even People Polling who have been consistently upper end. So, if the general bounce is ongoing we might see a double effect movement tonight reinforcing the Sun etc 'comeback kid' stuff. Conversely, another high 20s to 30 lead and its 'comeback stalls, sack Suella!'
    The Thursdsy poll had over a 20 point lead for Labour with over 65s, higher than the 50 to 65 lead which stuck out like a sore thumb........ be interesting to see what turns out
    Generally this week should show us if we are amidst a bounce or one has occured and ceased/peaked

    Subsamples are meaningless – you should know this by now.

    If you want to know more about it, as Stuart Dickson about his 'time in the wilderness'.
    Yes of course they are, but it still sticks out like a sore thumb. I'm not drawing any assumption from it, its just one of those things that make you sit up.
    Remove that setence and i wouldnt be changing any of the other words.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,640

    A thought on the polls and the 'narrative'. Opinium has given some column inches on 'comeback' from the usual suspects, but tonights Redfield might be interesting. Thursday saw almost no movement compared to the others and indeed Redfield are now the upper end outlier, more than even People Polling who have been consistently upper end. So, if the general bounce is ongoing we might see a double effect movement tonight reinforcing the Sun etc 'comeback kid' stuff. Conversely, another high 20s to 30 lead and its 'comeback stalls, sack Suella!'
    The Thursdsy poll had over a 20 point lead for Labour with over 65s, higher than the 50 to 65 lead which stuck out like a sore thumb........ be interesting to see what turns out
    Generally this week should show us if we are amidst a bounce or one has occured and ceased/peaked

    We do say on PB big political events take two weeks or more before they clearly register in polls - so we should still be watching, asking right questions, and reserving judgement as yet, like punters do with watched horses in horse racing.

    The right questions are not the size of lead, there’s too much LLG in size of lead, it’s the Tory share recovery to watch for. Before the Starmergasm, Truss had some consistent 35s from Techne and a 34 from Opinium. To what extent does Sunak Honeymoon raise the Tory polling average is still the measure to be watching.

    The trouble with using Opinium as part of comeback narrative is the swingback distorts the average and impression - what they actually got from voters was likely something around 25 for Tory share before swingback, that sort of return has to be higher in the next Opinium for a real Honeymoon bounce, ditto all the other firms.

    So when new polls come this week, ignore the lead, the “this is the Tory score last time, this is it this time” is the only thing to measure in this CRUCIAL couple of months in the history of the Tory Party.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,040

    Dura_Ace said:

    I'm sitting in my local pub right now (last day of paternity leave) and the five locals at the bar are discussing the boats across the channel *right this minute* and spitting teeth about it.

    This is cutting through. Hugely.

    I took the Ukrainians to Waitrose for baking supplies this morning (every day is the Great Ukrainian Bake Off in our house). Two old yentas at the checkout were going on about that woman in Kent who found an informal immigrant in her front room demanding to be taken to Manchester. They were fucking furious about the situation.
    Somehow I struggle to imagine you patiently doing bake off with your houseguests everyday.
    I just work on the logisitics fulfilment of ingredients then retreat to my office or the workshop. I occasionally assist with the clean up before Mrs DA gets home as the kitchen sometimes looks like that steelworks in Mariupol by the end.
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    EPGEPG Posts: 6,040
    The Tories threw out Truss after a few weeks. It was the voters who told Labour to throw out Corbyn in 2017. Labour ignored them - the they/thems of this world moved to a parallel universe where Corbyn won. So the voters had to tell them twice, and how.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    In another universe, Sunak appointed Mordaunt to the HO, the ERG kicked off a bit, but the honeymoon period was still underway.
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    TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,718
    Nearly November.

    Time for Mordaunt's term as PM now I assume?
    Who bagsied December? Does anyone remember....?
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 7,213
    edited October 2022

    A thought on the polls and the 'narrative'. Opinium has given some column inches on 'comeback' from the usual suspects, but tonights Redfield might be interesting. Thursday saw almost no movement compared to the others and indeed Redfield are now the upper end outlier, more than even People Polling who have been consistently upper end. So, if the general bounce is ongoing we might see a double effect movement tonight reinforcing the Sun etc 'comeback kid' stuff. Conversely, another high 20s to 30 lead and its 'comeback stalls, sack Suella!'
    The Thursdsy poll had over a 20 point lead for Labour with over 65s, higher than the 50 to 65 lead which stuck out like a sore thumb........ be interesting to see what turns out
    Generally this week should show us if we are amidst a bounce or one has occured and ceased/peaked

    We do say on PB big political events take two weeks or more before they clearly register in polls - so we should still be watching, asking right questions, and reserving judgement as yet, like punters do with watched horses in horse racing.

    The right questions are not the size of lead, there’s too much LLG in size of lead, it’s the Tory share recovery to watch for. Before the Starmergasm, Truss had some consistent 35s from Techne and a 34 from Opinium. To what extent does Sunak Honeymoon raise the Tory polling average is still the measure to be watching.

    The trouble with using Opinium as part of comeback narrative is the swingback distorts the average and impression - what they actually got from voters was likely something around 25 for Tory share before swingback, that sort of return has to be higher in the next Opinium for a real Honeymoon bounce, ditto all the other firms.

    So when new polls come this week, ignore the lead, the “this is the Tory score last time, this is it this time” is the only thing to measure in this CRUCIAL couple of months in the history of the Tory Party.
    I partly agree, however i think the lead is important too, it defines the scale of challenge to prevent majority, be largest party etc, as are numvers of seitchers and 2019 vote retention .
    I agree they need to get into the 30s to help with avoiding disaster downstream though
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    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,640
    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Nigelb said:

    Do you think the prime minister Rishi Sunak should or should not attend the COP27 climate change conference in Egypt in November?

    Definitely should: 36%
    Probably should: 25%
    Probably should not: 11%
    Definitely should not: 9%

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1587046726921224192

    Ask the same question about attending the local village fete. We probably want our politicians to do everything.
    Or it could be, despite right wing media being very stridently opposed to Net Zero, no matter how you phrase the polling question vast majority of Tory voters support Net Zero, so Sunak has arsed this one up.

    Unforced Error from Captain Unforced Error!
    This is something that would be described as an unforced error by his haters no matter what he did.
    You don’t regard no to COP becoming yes to COP as a u-turn?
    Not what I said. Thought I haven't seen anything beyond "he can't go" "changing" to "he'd like to go but it might not be possible".

    What I said is: if he'd said from the outset he was going, you'd have called that an unforced error because he should have stayed home dealing with more urgent domestic matters.
    Nope. myself and about 80% of people took it as obvious he’d pop in, would not have batted an eye lid if he done so, especially after the hard work and national pride put into recent UK COP.

    It only become a story to criticise him with when he made it one, by pandering to the vocal right wing minority who loath Net Zero policy.

    That those so vocal in their loathing of Net Zero are in such minority even on the right, and weak and wobbly Sunak arsed up pandering to them, is the only take out from this U Turn story.
    I mean, the bit in bold is just entirely nonsense.
    No. That is exactly Sunak’s whole modus operandi as PM, do wake up and realise what’s really going on, you are so far back down the road on UK politics you can’t even be seen with binoculars.
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    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,098
    eek said:

    I think the boats are the number one political issue for the conservative base right now, because if not fixed it will splinter to Reform and even Rachel Reeves may outflank.

    If I were Rishi Sunak I'd almost be inclined to ask Macron to name his price for stopping them. All of them.

    Its not all Macron. We could start by honouring our international obligations and reopen legal routes for people to apply for asylum from all the countries where we have removed it. Resource up the system properly. Rejoin the international community in collectively managing refugees.

    In short, the right could grow up. Don't hold your breath.
    Oh God, why do we always come back here.

    You will never get a hearing for "safe and legal routes" - ever - until you get control of the border. Because otherwise all people will hear is: I want to make it even easier to come here for anyone who wants to come.

    Why is this so difficult to understand?
    Until we offer a safe and legal route - people will continue to come the illegal way. Only when we have a suitable safe and legal method of applying for residency will the problem be solved.

    Heck the fact a lot of the migrants happen to be Albanians who end up working on county lines and similar illegal schemes tells you that no approach is going to 100% work as many peoples desire is to disappear as soon as they arrive in the country. Not even fining employers £x0,000 will solve that side of the issue
    I am assuming the link on eligibility is broadly aligned with international criteria

    But how do all these Albanians who are reported to be coming qualify for asylum?

    https://www.gov.uk/claim-asylum/eligibility



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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,159

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Nigelb said:

    Do you think the prime minister Rishi Sunak should or should not attend the COP27 climate change conference in Egypt in November?

    Definitely should: 36%
    Probably should: 25%
    Probably should not: 11%
    Definitely should not: 9%

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1587046726921224192

    Ask the same question about attending the local village fete. We probably want our politicians to do everything.
    Or it could be, despite right wing media being very stridently opposed to Net Zero, no matter how you phrase the polling question vast majority of Tory voters support Net Zero, so Sunak has arsed this one up.

    Unforced Error from Captain Unforced Error!
    This is something that would be described as an unforced error by his haters no matter what he did.
    You don’t regard no to COP becoming yes to COP as a u-turn?
    Not what I said. Thought I haven't seen anything beyond "he can't go" "changing" to "he'd like to go but it might not be possible".

    What I said is: if he'd said from the outset he was going, you'd have called that an unforced error because he should have stayed home dealing with more urgent domestic matters.
    Nope. myself and about 80% of people took it as obvious he’d pop in, would not have batted an eye lid if he done so, especially after the hard work and national pride put into recent UK COP.

    It only become a story to criticise him with when he made it one, by pandering to the vocal right wing minority who loath Net Zero policy.

    That those so vocal in their loathing of Net Zero are in such minority even on the right, and weak and wobbly Sunak arsed up pandering to them, is the only take out from this U Turn story.
    well Greta thinks its a load of twaddle and is not going - is he a right wing extremist?
    He?

    She's a she isn't, er, she?
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    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,098

    malcolmg said:

    Andy_JS said:

    NOM 2.3
    Lab Maj 2.4
    Con Maj 5.6

    Awful figures for Labour when they have a 25 point lead in the polls.
    Agreed. Punters are clearly sceptical about Starmer.
    I'm not a Labour supporter but, if I were, I'd note that the mismatch between polling and betting indicates that, while punters may be sceptical about Starmer, voters aren't. And I'd rather it was that way around.

    More realistically, it indicates that punters (probably correctly) believe Sunak is a more credible opponent to Starmer than Truss was, and the 25% lead (more than half of which opened up rather quickly in recent weeks due to consistently appalling news for the Conservatives) is likely to narrow. That isn't a judgment on Starmer as such.
    Actually voters are. Votes in local by elections taken in the round do not support the 25 point lead poll respondees give
    How is your certain call from last night that Bolsonaro will be re-elected looking?

    #theoracleofnorfolk
    I was slightly off, he didnt. My failed prediction fortunately has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the facts that data provide however
    You weren't 'slightly off', you were completely wrong, predicting the outcome opposite to the actual outcome. Which would have been fine (it happens to us all) except that you predicted it with the certainty of someone forecasting the sun will rise tomorrow.
    He shagged one sheep, give him a break
    One? I shag one before breakfast, Malcolm, by evening i've desecrated the flock
    I’m not going to make a filthy joke based on your user name…

  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,159

    A thought on the polls and the 'narrative'. Opinium has given some column inches on 'comeback' from the usual suspects, but tonights Redfield might be interesting. Thursday saw almost no movement compared to the others and indeed Redfield are now the upper end outlier, more than even People Polling who have been consistently upper end. So, if the general bounce is ongoing we might see a double effect movement tonight reinforcing the Sun etc 'comeback kid' stuff. Conversely, another high 20s to 30 lead and its 'comeback stalls, sack Suella!'
    The Thursdsy poll had over a 20 point lead for Labour with over 65s, higher than the 50 to 65 lead which stuck out like a sore thumb........ be interesting to see what turns out
    Generally this week should show us if we are amidst a bounce or one has occured and ceased/peaked

    Subsamples are meaningless – you should know this by now.

    If you want to know more about it, as Stuart Dickson about his 'time in the wilderness'.
    Yes of course they are, but it still sticks out like a sore thumb. I'm not drawing any assumption from it, its just one of those things that make you sit up.
    Remove that setence and i wouldnt be changing any of the other words.
    It was a good post in every other respect, until you raised OGH's bete noire – still I have been on your back too much today so I will simply offer a friendly warning: "Remember Stuart. And beware."
  • Options
    'Bounces' tend to last a month and usually thats it. Though Johnson and May saw some movement up to three months. Generally speaking the peak of the 'bounce' proves better than the new PM ends up performing at the following GE, sometimes much MUCH better.

    Advancing to a defecit of 16 for the Cons is pretty useless. They need to be looking at regaining the lead before this 'bounce' wears off. Anything less than that and the way to retaining power is pretty much closed to them.

    Also please recall that this 'bounce' is compared to Truss. We should perhaps compare the position once it settles down to the position when Johnson's Ministers were resigning en masse. At the moment the Govt is some way off getting back to that already pretty dire position.

    However, it must be true that a Lab lead so quickly gained is vulnerable to being very easily lost. Denied Corbyn-style Lab own-goals the answer for the Govt is clearly quiet competence. Which makes that appointment of Braverman such a foolish and frankly amateurish mistake. Mr Sunak can't afford many more of those - even this far out.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 7,213

    A thought on the polls and the 'narrative'. Opinium has given some column inches on 'comeback' from the usual suspects, but tonights Redfield might be interesting. Thursday saw almost no movement compared to the others and indeed Redfield are now the upper end outlier, more than even People Polling who have been consistently upper end. So, if the general bounce is ongoing we might see a double effect movement tonight reinforcing the Sun etc 'comeback kid' stuff. Conversely, another high 20s to 30 lead and its 'comeback stalls, sack Suella!'
    The Thursdsy poll had over a 20 point lead for Labour with over 65s, higher than the 50 to 65 lead which stuck out like a sore thumb........ be interesting to see what turns out
    Generally this week should show us if we are amidst a bounce or one has occured and ceased/peaked

    Subsamples are meaningless – you should know this by now.

    If you want to know more about it, as Stuart Dickson about his 'time in the wilderness'.
    Yes of course they are, but it still sticks out like a sore thumb. I'm not drawing any assumption from it, its just one of those things that make you sit up.
    Remove that setence and i wouldnt be changing any of the other words.
    It was a good post in every other respect, until you raised OGH's bete noire – still I have been on your back too much today so I will simply offer a friendly warning: "Remember Stuart. And beware."
    Noted and brought aboard the Woolietrain
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 7,213

    malcolmg said:

    Andy_JS said:

    NOM 2.3
    Lab Maj 2.4
    Con Maj 5.6

    Awful figures for Labour when they have a 25 point lead in the polls.
    Agreed. Punters are clearly sceptical about Starmer.
    I'm not a Labour supporter but, if I were, I'd note that the mismatch between polling and betting indicates that, while punters may be sceptical about Starmer, voters aren't. And I'd rather it was that way around.

    More realistically, it indicates that punters (probably correctly) believe Sunak is a more credible opponent to Starmer than Truss was, and the 25% lead (more than half of which opened up rather quickly in recent weeks due to consistently appalling news for the Conservatives) is likely to narrow. That isn't a judgment on Starmer as such.
    Actually voters are. Votes in local by elections taken in the round do not support the 25 point lead poll respondees give
    How is your certain call from last night that Bolsonaro will be re-elected looking?

    #theoracleofnorfolk
    I was slightly off, he didnt. My failed prediction fortunately has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the facts that data provide however
    You weren't 'slightly off', you were completely wrong, predicting the outcome opposite to the actual outcome. Which would have been fine (it happens to us all) except that you predicted it with the certainty of someone forecasting the sun will rise tomorrow.
    He shagged one sheep, give him a break
    One? I shag one before breakfast, Malcolm, by evening i've desecrated the flock
    I’m not going to make a filthy joke based on your user name…

    Why not? I would.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,029

    eek said:

    I think the boats are the number one political issue for the conservative base right now, because if not fixed it will splinter to Reform and even Rachel Reeves may outflank.

    If I were Rishi Sunak I'd almost be inclined to ask Macron to name his price for stopping them. All of them.

    Its not all Macron. We could start by honouring our international obligations and reopen legal routes for people to apply for asylum from all the countries where we have removed it. Resource up the system properly. Rejoin the international community in collectively managing refugees.

    In short, the right could grow up. Don't hold your breath.
    Oh God, why do we always come back here.

    You will never get a hearing for "safe and legal routes" - ever - until you get control of the border. Because otherwise all people will hear is: I want to make it even easier to come here for anyone who wants to come.

    Why is this so difficult to understand?
    Until we offer a safe and legal route - people will continue to come the illegal way. Only when we have a suitable safe and legal method of applying for residency will the problem be solved.

    Heck the fact a lot of the migrants happen to be Albanians who end up working on county lines and similar illegal schemes tells you that no approach is going to 100% work as many peoples desire is to disappear as soon as they arrive in the country. Not even fining employers £x0,000 will solve that side of the issue
    I am assuming the link on eligibility is broadly aligned with international criteria

    But how do all these Albanians who are reported to be coming qualify for asylum?

    https://www.gov.uk/claim-asylum/eligibility



    Not a clue - but the first question is are they actually claiming asylum or is that just a desperate attempt to stay if caught
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,640

    Scott_xP said:

    🚨 Hearing preparation is now under way for Rishi Sunak to attend COP27
    https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/1587075621452189697

    just as Gretta pulls out! Honestly I dont care whether he goes or not (as does most of the silent majority) but FGS show some backbone and make a decision and stick to it
    Not even a week in, and you are encouraging the Daily Star to lead national search for Sunak’s backbone.

    You are spot on actually, not a bit like the politically out of touch Driver.
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    novanova Posts: 525
    Scott_xP said:

    🔵 Suella Braverman still has the "full confidence" of Rishi Sunak in the wake of revelations around her use of emails, Downing Street said this lunchtime.

    Read the latest on our politics live blog ⬇️
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/10/31/rishi-sunak-cop27-news-suella-braverman-security-breach-latest/ https://twitter.com/TelePolitics/status/1587071979911368704/photo/1

    One bonus of the ridiculous infighting and 3 PMs in 2 months is that we get "No 10" saying they don't know why "No 10" did something.
  • Options
    This thread

    has the full confidence of the Prime Minister

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    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,098
    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    The solution is what the Greeks do, tow them back to French water. Fuck the international sensibilities, do it enough and they give up just as the Turkey to Greece route is now non functional for people trafficking. If the charity taxi boats don't like it they can lump it. Pay the French whatever it takes to make this happen. Within weeks it would stop being an issue because people won't spend €2000 just to end up back in France.

    Alternatively we can accept people will come here and set up processing centres in France to process their applications. Give passage to those approved and those who,don’t, if they come over by other means, just return them.
    We have legal routes of migration. If they don't qualify then it's hard no. We need to end the pull factor and make the trip completely uneconomic. A huge crackdown on illegal work, a deal with France to end the boat crossings and ensuring legitimate migrants are given access to legal routes of migration. The default approach should be deportation for all illegal immigrants with no right of appeal and barring that person from ever being able to legally migrate to the UK. Make the cost of illegal immigration extremely high.
    So let’s say they have kids with a British citizen while here. Aren’t you depriving British children of either (a) a parent or (b) the ability to live in the UK?
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Wait, the two polls done of Indiana show a GOP lead of 3 pts and 2 pts respectively?

    Isn't that completely insane for a mid term with an unpopular Dem president?

    Is there "local reasons" as to why this would be the case?
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    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,924

    I reckon this means lied to the House.

    Let us not forget that IIRC this woman was Johnson's choice for Attorney General. You couldn't make it up.
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    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,924

    DougSeal said:

    eek said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MaxPB said:

    The solution is what the Greeks do, tow them back to French water. Fuck the international sensibilities, do it enough and they give up just as the Turkey to Greece route is now non functional for people trafficking. If the charity taxi boats don't like it they can lump it. Pay the French whatever it takes to make this happen. Within weeks it would stop being an issue because people won't spend €2000 just to end up back in France.

    That's the deal that needs to be struck.
    I don't think there is any amount of money that would make that politically acceptable to France - which is not a backwards shithole like Rwanda that can be bought off.

    So the price would have to be a political prize greather than just large amounts of money. Fucked if I know what that is.

    Tow backs that did not breach French territorual waters but without French consent would 100% work as a deterrent but tories lack the resolve to do it.
    Border Force staff would refuse to do the tow backs.
    Because no-one wishes to put people into jeopardy which is what you are doing if you tow a boat and leave it outside land

    The point is that there are zero easy options here as you demonstrated with your attack on my comment regarding setting up application centers closer to the places where valid immigrants are coming from
    "Attack on your comment" = disagreeing with you.

    Australia has no such issues. However, the metastasising tumour that is Wokery has now taken a firm hold amongst all branches of our public sector and quango institutions so they'd simply refuse to do it.

    A clear out and reset might work.
    Refusing to kill people or break the law now falls inside the boundaries of this nebulous and undefined thing called “wokery”.

    Saying, "what does Wokery mean?" is simply Libtard code for disagreeing such a thing exists, because they lack the self-awareness to see that anyone could possibly or reasonably disagree with them.
    As you mention self-awareness, although you can't see it yourself, you are an obsessive as far as the "woke" debate is concerned.

    IIRC you became apoplectic about an advertising sign in a railway station that 99% of the population walk straight past without batting an eyelid.

    "Anti-wokery" as far as I am concerned is something that people bang on about to deflect from the fact that they don't have any answers to the real problems that people face.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,121
    Ghedebrav said:

    TOPPING said:

    ping said:

    Email from TravelZoo flogging 3 hour flights to see the northern lights;

    https://www.omegabreaks.com/itineraries/9031-Special Offer Northern Lights Flights 2022

    As a society, we’re really not taking climate change seriously, are we?

    Indeed we are not which is strange, isn't it. Every one of us now is aware of the potential dangers of climate change, of the various activities which have been identified as contributing to it and yet no one or precious few are willing to do anything about it.

    That tells me that they either don't care, don't believe, or believe that it won't be as bad as all that.

    The broad masses are certainly not agreeing with eg XR and their ilk.
    I guess it's a combo of people feeling they personally won't make much of a difference, general ignorance and/or confusion over what actually causes climate change and wilful blindness to the problem (see also factory farmed animals).

    There's also no doubt a bit of IDGAF as well.
    We are speck in the ocean compared to the big polluters like China, India etc. They are not goinb to change so we are just farting against a hurricane.
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    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,098
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    IMPORTANT: Bolsonaro’s most powerful ally in congress, equivalent to House Speaker in US, says “the will of the majority expressed at the ballot box should never be contested.” Clear message to Bolsonaro and a plea for a smooth transition to Lula
    https://twitter.com/BrazilBrian/status/1586865535043735552

    We were talking about twitter this morning and a possible revenue model.

    I love it when people put "IMPORTANT" at the beginning of a tweet. Says who the fuck. Perhaps an extra fiver for having the temerity to do that.
    I'd support a similar measure, right here on PB, for anyone who prefaces a post:

    BREAKING


    And, while we are at it, a £10 fine for any of the below. Easy money for OGH...

    • Doing some heavy lifting
    • Colour me …
    • IANAE/IANAL
    • Feature, not a bug
    • Ad hom
    • This
    • It’s a view
    • North of [to mean more than]
    • As I’ve said passim
    • One of those irregular verbs
    • Late of this parish
    • Nail. Head.
    • Unspoofable
    This.

    :wink:
    Unspoofable…

  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,098

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    .

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    The solution is what the Greeks do, tow them back to French water. Fuck the international sensibilities, do it enough and they give up just as the Turkey to Greece route is now non functional for people trafficking. If the charity taxi boats don't like it they can lump it. Pay the French whatever it takes to make this happen. Within weeks it would stop being an issue because people won't spend €2000 just to end up back in France.

    Alternatively we can accept people will come here and set up processing centres in France to process their applications. Give passage to those approved and those who,don’t, if they come over by other means, just return them.
    We have legal routes of migration. If they don't qualify then it's hard no. We need to end the pull factor and make the trip completely uneconomic. A huge crackdown on illegal work, a deal with France to end the boat crossings and ensuring legitimate migrants are given access to legal routes of migration. The default approach should be deportation for all illegal immigrants with no right of appeal and barring that person from ever being able to legally migrate to the UK. Make the cost of illegal immigration extremely high.
    Punishments being made stronger don't work if people don't think they'll be caught.
    So disabuse them of that notion. Have the crackdown, shut down all of the carwashes and deport them all, shutdown all of the restaurants hiring illegal workers and deport them all, huge fines for all of the firms with dodgy site labourers being paid cash. Have a series of no warning inspections and don't give the businesses doing the dirt a way out with paying fines, just shut them down, no right of appeal, directors barred from opening a business for 20 years.
    Very good ideas.

    Then post a policeman at the dwelling of everyone on any dangerous watchlist (terrorism, domestic abuse, you name it) and have that policeman accompany that person everywhere they go.

    Then put a policeman in every supermarket in the country to deter shoplifters and, should shoplifting occur, the culprit should be given five years imprisonment.

    A few more measures like that should make a serious indent into our crime stats.

    But wait. It's not going to happen. None of it. Including your measures to deter/prevent illegal immigration.

    So why don't we instead think about what is workable and doable. Not what might be workable but is as we have seen, transparently obviously not doable.
    Max’s idea is workable - it’s small enough that the impact isn’t that great.

    As for whether it works or not - Max missed one important factor. The illegal immigrant who reports the company isn’t treated as an illegal immigrant if he reports the case. Instead reporting the company employing him / her triggers a reward of some form or other rather than instant deportation.

    Currently the incentive of all parties who are illegal or employ illegal workers is to keep quiet about it. The fix we need is to utterly change the incentive for one of the parties involved.

    And that means we need to incentivize illegal immigrants to report illegal employers to the extent that employers have major incentives to never employ an illegal worker
    Why would he trade employment for a one-off reward?
    If the reward is legal right to remain that would be big enough
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    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,098
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:
    What an idiot.
    The key sentence being “warning that the voters would punish such slackness [on security matters]”…

    The Metro has utterly misreported him in the headline. I’m surprised you fell for it
    Misrepresented, but not 'utterly' - the direct quote from him was also that "we" will replace the PM.
    Putting that next to a photo of a bloke in uniform implies “we” is the military.

    That completely changed the meaning of his statement and meets the bar of “utterly” in my view.
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    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,098

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:
    What an idiot.
    The key sentence being “warning that the voters would punish such slackness [on security matters]”…

    The Metro has utterly misreported him in the headline. I’m surprised you fell for it
    The Metro above reproach, Shirley 🤭


    To be honest I think he looks like he’s about to barf. That’s not a “roar” expression
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    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,098

    Dura_Ace said:

    I'm sitting in my local pub right now (last day of paternity leave) and the five locals at the bar are discussing the boats across the channel *right this minute* and spitting teeth about it.

    This is cutting through. Hugely.

    I took the Ukrainians to Waitrose for baking supplies this morning (every day is the Great Ukrainian Bake Off in our house). Two old yentas at the checkout were going on about that woman in Kent who found an informal immigrant in her front room demanding to be taken to Manchester. They were fucking furious about the situation.
    Somehow I struggle to imagine you patiently doing bake off with your houseguests everyday.
    I had dinner last night with someone who has modified his sports car so that flames come out of the exhaust when he accelerates.

    Just because 😂

  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 7,213
    edited October 2022
    Truss effect unwind......
    The Government’s net competency rating stands at -34% this week, up 30 points from last Sunday. Altogether, 15% find the Government competent (+7), and 49% find the Government incompetent (-23).
    Still dire but Boris dire not Liz dire
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,073
    @SeanT has been banned.

    You can't be too careful.
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