politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The first polling: Women are taking a much tougher view than men over the Lord Rennard case
There’s a YouGov poll in the Times this morning in which there’s the first detailed questioning on whether Lord Rennard he should be allowed to stay with the Lib Dems or leave following the allegations of sexual harassment
Incidentally, (quite apart from the Rennardpocalypse) I have been amused by RodCrosby's references in the last few days to a case in which he won a case against a few muppets who had to pay heavy costs. It would be interesting to read the whole story of what it was all about somewhere/some time.
O/T Birmingham City Council Kingstanding By Election Feb 13th
One of the 5 candidates Terry Williams is listed as No Party Description but there is a curious note from Birmingham City Council " Please note Terry Williams did not fill in the description section of the nomination form meaning his party description is not listed . We can confirm that he is a registered candidate for the National Front Party . The City's election office did contact Mr Williams and his election agent to raise this matter but his nomination paper was not re-submitted before the deadline " and finally even more curious and I am not sure of the legality ... " The National Front logo will appear on election documentation and he will be referred to as a candidate for National Front when the results are declared etc . "
The legalities are as follows:
(a) if a candidate wants to use a description other than "Independent" (or no description) he needs an authorisation certificate from the party to say that he is a member of the party and is therefore allowed to use the description.
(b) if a candidate wants to use a party logo, he needs an authorisation certificate from the party to say that he is allowed to use that logo.
(c) the two above (a and b) are two separate documents, and are done separately.
This simply means that Mr Williams did (b) but forgot to do (a) - or at least, forgot to write in the description. It is compulsory to be a party member if a candidate wants to use the party name, but it is not compulsory to use the party name if a candidate is a party member.
Where has my first comment gone? There must have been a gremlin. At 4:24am I wrote something like this:
The title of the thread is misleading. When I read the words "taking a much tougher view", I took it to mean that they were less tolerant of the impertinent and ultra-vires demand by Alistair Webster QC that Lord Rennard should apologise for something he hasn't done, and of the attitude of Nick Clegg in continuing to dig himself further into a hole.
So poll claims women are more offended by offensive behaviour by old men with money than men. No surprise there.
No surprise at all, though I think the key is offensive behaviour towards women. I expect LibDem psephologists will be anxiously combing the subsamples to see if this affects voting intention (or turn-out intention). It is not yet clear, pace the OP, that older women would find Rennard's alleged behaviour more acceptable.
However, I can say I am almost lost for words at the idiocy of the Lib Dems and their elementary errors in misconstruing their own rules.
Any fool can see that they have found the allegations don't come up to proof, yet for political reasons they don't wish to say that straight, and are trying to extract an apology from Rennard, to appease the complainants.
Which is entirely contrary to their own rules, the principles of natural justice and the principles of good faith.
However, I can say I am almost lost for words at the idiocy of the Lib Dems and their elementary errors in misconstruing their own rules.
Any fool can see that they have found the allegations don't come up to proof, yet for political reasons they don't wish to say that straight, and are trying to extract an apology from Rennard, to appease the complainants.
Which is entirely contrary to their own rules, the principles of natural justice and the principles of good faith.
When ongoing trials reach their verdicts, we might be able to compare and contrast. If it turns out that elderly celebs can be convicted not through proof of any individual allegation but through a pattern of behavior -- no smoke without fire, they can't all be lying -- then this might start to look like the Establishment protecting its own.
Whether that is concordant with natural justice is a quite separate matter.
Even in other criminal trials, our prosecutors seem to have adopted the American approach of going beyond circumstantial evidence and trying to prejudice the jury. Look at the pictures of Dennehy in the papers. Whatever the evidence that defendant X robbed the bank or called the police plebs, he looks like the sort of person who might have done.
Even in other criminal trials, our prosecutors seem to have adopted the American approach of going beyond circumstantial evidence and trying to prejudice the jury. Look at the pictures of Dennehy in the papers.
Eh? Dennehy pleaded guilty months ago. She is awaiting sentencing.
Even in other criminal trials, our prosecutors seem to have adopted the American approach of going beyond circumstantial evidence and trying to prejudice the jury. Look at the pictures of Dennehy in the papers.
Eh? Dennehy pleaded guilty months ago. She is awaiting sentencing.
off-topic. at least Alex Salmond now has his strategy for a YES majority: include in his manifesto (do they have manifestos?) a pledge to give each new Scottish citizen £500. 52% on this basis will say YES. Job done.
In other words Rennard has to apologise for being acquitted....
No. He has to apologise for putting himself in a position where he needed to be acquitted. Imagine that all the candidates for a particular party at an election had just been acquitted of sexual harassment. Would you say that party had a problem?
Party membership, let alone a concomitant benefit such as a Whip in the Lords, is not a right. It's a privilege. Would any of the Lib Dems on this board want to see Rennard as their candidate for an elected office (e.g. a Mayoralty or a Euro-seat) right now?
In other words Rennard has to apologise for being acquitted....
No. He has to apologise for putting himself in a position where he needed to be acquitted. Imagine that all the candidates for a particular party at an election had just been acquitted of sexual harassment. Would you say that party had a problem?
Party membership, let alone a concomitant benefit such as a Whip in the Lords, is not a right. It's a privilege. Would any of the Lib Dems on this board want to see Rennard as their candidate for an elected office (e.g. a Mayoralty or a Euro-seat) right now?
No? I thought not.
Wow! So anyone accused of a crime who is acquitted should apologise for being charged! I'm not a lib dem nor do I like Mr Rennard but this is ridiculous.
Wow! So anyone accused of a crime who is acquitted should apologise for being charged! I'm not a lib dem nor do I like Mr Rennard but this is ridiculous.
He has *not* been acquitted of behaving inappropriately. There was not enough evidence to prove he brought the party into disrepute which hung on whether it could be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he intended to cause distress. But the evidence that he misbehaved in the ways reported was credible. He should apologise for how he behaved towards these women not for being charged.
In other words Rennard has to apologise for being acquitted....
No. He has to apologise for putting himself in a position where he needed to be acquitted. Imagine that all the candidates for a particular party at an election had just been acquitted of sexual harassment. Would you say that party had a problem?
Party membership, let alone a concomitant benefit such as a Whip in the Lords, is not a right. It's a privilege. Would any of the Lib Dems on this board want to see Rennard as their candidate for an elected office (e.g. a Mayoralty or a Euro-seat) right now?
No? I thought not.
I may be wrong but I thought that Lord Rennard had never been charged and had never faced trial. He therefore cannot be acquitted of a crime he has not committed!
I think the language is getting a little out of hand.
Would any of the Lib Dems on this board want to see Rennard as their candidate for an elected office (e.g. a Mayoralty or a Euro-seat) right now?
No? I thought not.
Why do you ask a question, and then arrogantly and impertinently provide your own answer as if you think you already know what the answer is going to be?
EITHER ask a question, and then have the courtesy to wait for the other person to give their own answer, OR don't ask the question in the first place.
Would any of the Lib Dems on this board want to see Rennard as their candidate for an elected office (e.g. a Mayoralty or a Euro-seat) right now?
No? I thought not.
Why do you ask a question, and then arrogantly and impertinently provide your own answer as if you think you already know what the answer is going to be?
EITHER ask a question, and then have the courtesy to wait for the other person to give their own answer, OR don't ask the question in the first place.
Ho Hum I'm detecting a bit of a right-left split on this one. The more left-liberal posters are with Clegg, the more right-conservative with Rennard.
Personally I simply think there is no right answer for the Lib Dems here. Their failure to investigate things in a timely manner means they are entirely a hostage to the fortune of whichever way Rennard wants to play it. And as they've hung him out to dry I can't blame him for his actions.
"If this sounds a little bad-tempered, that’s because it is. This comes across not as economic policy, but a self-indulgent wander up Wonk Lane by people with considerable experience in the academic theory of finance and none in its practice.
The economy is still the only story which matters, which means the big stuff. And while our modest poll lead is burning away, we, like Nero, are fiddling."
Perhaps the best course of action would be for the Lib Dems to publicly clear Renard, but Clegg ask him PRIVATELY - and he seems like a man who values privacy to privately apologise to the women concerned ?
I think it is the public humiliation as much as anything that has got Rennard's goat up.
Felix [7.56am] If you don't read what I wrote you're at liberty to come up with absurd inferences. I am utterly powerless to stop you!
The only absurdity was your original post.: "He has to apologise for putting himself in a position where he needed to be acquitted."
I believe it was the anniversary of Orwell's death the other day - he might just be spinning in his grave!
Rennard denies the allegations against him. Neither the Police nor the Party have been able as yet to prove his guilt. It appears for some that merely to be suspected of something is sufficient to warrant an apology which could leave him open to being sued. As I said I hold no brief for him or the LDs but this seems like a modern day witch-hunt.
Ho Hum I'm detecting a bit of a right-left split on this one. The more left-liberal posters are with Clegg, the more right-conservative with Rennard.
That's because the right-conservative ones believe in due process and the rule of law, whereas the left-liberal ones are deranged and frenziedly demented hysterical morons who believe any half-baked nonsense they read and believe in the rule of the mob.
Wow! So anyone accused of a crime who is acquitted should apologise for being charged! I'm not a lib dem nor do I like Mr Rennard but this is ridiculous.
He has *not* been acquitted of behaving inappropriately. There was not enough evidence to prove he brought the party into disrepute which hung on whether it could be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he intended to cause distress. But the evidence that he misbehaved in the ways reported was credible. He should apologise for how he behaved towards these women not for being charged.
Exactly. But you'll never get some people on here to see it that way. I'm beginning to wonder if some Peebies haven't got guilty secrets themselves.
Mr. Flashman (deceased), I'd heard a similar comment elsewhere. I think that's a rather worrying comment. As a man who was told by about three separate people at university (in the first month) he looked like a serial killer/psychopath I don't think we should judge people based on how photogenic they are.
The gender breakdown is interesting, though perhaps unsurprising. The problem is that he has not been found to have done anything wrong. An accusation is not sufficient to establish guilt.
Ho Hum I'm detecting a bit of a right-left split on this one. The more left-liberal posters are with Clegg, the more right-conservative with Rennard.
Personally I simply think there is no right answer for the Lib Dems here. Their failure to investigate things in a timely manner means they are entirely a hostage to the fortune of whichever way Rennard wants to play it. And as they've hung him out to dry I can't blame him for his actions.
Nah, it's the self-defined proceedure monkeys that are with Rennard. Those and the people who don't actually see much wrong with what he is accused of doing.
Membership of a political party and serving in Parliament is not a right, it is a duty and a privilege. Rennard, whether he intended to or not, clearly upset these women sufficient that they chose to go public. That, in itself and regardless of guilt/innocence/provability or not, is worthy of an apology. There must be some suitable formulation that you can come up with that apologises for distress without accepting guilt.
That's because the right-conservative ones believe in due process and the rule of law
Yeah, that's the biggest lie of all, his friends are covering his back out of a sense of duty to natural justice. Rubbish, his friends are covering his back because they are his friend and / or they dont think his behaviour was all that bad.
Wow! So anyone accused of a crime who is acquitted should apologise for being charged! I'm not a lib dem nor do I like Mr Rennard but this is ridiculous.
He has *not* been acquitted of behaving inappropriately. There was not enough evidence to prove he brought the party into disrepute which hung on whether it could be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he intended to cause distress. But the evidence that he misbehaved in the ways reported was credible. He should apologise for how he behaved towards these women not for being charged.
Exactly. But you'll never get some people on here to see it that way. I'm beginning to wonder if some Peebies haven't got guilty secrets themselves.
Wow - again! If you can't prove it smear everyone associated or who comments on it. you are Damien McBride and i claim my £200.
Mr. Flashman (deceased), I'd heard a similar comment elsewhere. I think that's a rather worrying comment. As a man who was told by about three separate people at university (in the first month) he looked like a serial killer/psychopath I don't think we should judge people based on how photogenic they are.
The gender breakdown is interesting, though perhaps unsurprising. The problem is that he has not been found to have done anything wrong. An accusation is not sufficient to establish guilt.
Did you ever decide what you were going to specialise in? Serial killing or psychopathy? ;-)
This gender split is hardly shocking is it? Given the alleged offence. Will we see the Labour VI share jump as a result? If it does push more women over to the reds, will they be permanent?
The longer this goes on the more potentially damaging it is, but we've seen so many "potentially" damaging events recently that have not registered at all (as far as VI goes anyway), I'm minded to think that it'll just become part of the background politicians-are-all-bstards noise.
On topic, Lord Rennard has been found guilty in the court of public opinion.
He needs a legal victory to overturn that guilty verdict.
I wonder if Ed will raise this at PMQs, it will force Dave to either take the pee out of the Lib Dems or he'll have to defend them and be associated with Rennard.
I wonder if Ed will raise this at PMQs, it will force Dave to either take the pee out of the Lib Dems or he'll have to defend them and be associated with Rennard.
Nah, too easy to swat away... Why is LOTO asking for tittle tattle gossip when the county has real challenges, LOTO has nothing serious to say etc.
I wonder if Ed will raise this at PMQs, it will force Dave to either take the pee out of the Lib Dems or he'll have to defend them and be associated with Rennard.
I wonder if Ed will raise this at PMQs, it will force Dave to either take the pee out of the Lib Dems or he'll have to defend them and be associated with Rennard.
I clicked on the Rennard thread and it took me a few minutes to realise that it was two days old. The same arguments are being repeated over and over.
I reckon the issue is whether he was clumsy in manner or approach, or if he was taking advantage of his position. We can only guess at his motives, a subjective view -as the investigation admitted. That probably explains the sex divide.
I wonder if Ed will raise this at PMQs, it will force Dave to either take the pee out of the Lib Dems or he'll have to defend them and be associated with Rennard.
I expect a joke/reference in passing though....
Maybe a dreadful pun or two ? Could be a race to the bottom.
Can't forgive Murray for taking SPOTY by such a margin that the other votes got compressed so much it became a total crapshoot and cost me dosh on Leigh Halfpenny...
Michael Deacon@MichaelPDeacon1 min Clegg is asked about story that Miriam influenced his decisions on Rennard. He scoffs at the idea. As if a Lib Dem would listen to a woman!
His leadership ambitions must have been damaged as a result.
As I noted earlier there appears to be a general right/left split on this. For the liberals I'd imagine the split would be roughly down the SDP (Back Clegg)/Liberal (Back Renard) lines of the party.
Farron is firmly on the left of the Lib Dems, he knows which parish he is preaching to. I'm not certain it does harm his leadership chances so much.
You are missing the point, which is that regardless of the rights and wrongs of the situation, it might cost votes, especially women's votes. That is why something must be done even if people might otherwise think nothing should be done.
His leadership ambitions must have been damaged as a result.
As I noted earlier there appears to be a general right/left split on this. For the liberals I'd imagine the split would be roughly down the SDP (Back Clegg)/Liberal (Back Renard) lines of the party.
Farron is firmly on the left of the Lib Dems, he knows which parish he is preaching to. I'm not certain it does harm his leadership chances so much.
Farron is quite the social conservative as evidence by his votes on gay equality.
It's hard not to give George Osborne credit for this. Gordon Brown and Ed Balls would be taking credit for it if they were in office. And they'd be slamming Osborne if unemployment was rising.
I thought unemployment would rise during this parliament. I'd obviously been smoking whatever David "5 million unemployed" Blanchflower had been rolling.
CCHQ Press Office@CCHQPress21 secs BBC Presenter referring to record fall in Unemployment: "A lot of people will be worried these figures are so good" #CantMakeItUp
Tom Newton Dunn@tnewtondunn1 min Extraordinary jobs figures just out: unemployment down 167,000 between Sept and Nov to 2.32 mil. Largest drop sine records began in 1970.
His leadership ambitions must have been damaged as a result.
As I noted earlier there appears to be a general right/left split on this. For the liberals I'd imagine the split would be roughly down the SDP (Back Clegg)/Liberal (Back Renard) lines of the party.
Farron is firmly on the left of the Lib Dems, he knows which parish he is preaching to. I'm not certain it does harm his leadership chances so much.
Farron is quite the social conservative as evidence by his votes on gay equality.
Interesting... Yes 57.8% (Ambiguous record) - but he certainly seems to be less socially conservative on this than the DUP
His leadership ambitions must have been damaged as a result.
As I noted earlier there appears to be a general right/left split on this. For the liberals I'd imagine the split would be roughly down the SDP (Back Clegg)/Liberal (Back Renard) lines of the party.
Isabel Hardman observed yesterday that the Lib Dems rules are so convoluted as they are a combination of SDP, where the leaders did not trust the members, and Liberal, where the members did not trust the leaders, rule books....
My guess is that Rennard is a bubble story because he is just not well known enough to get a lot of purchase on the public as a whole. It does feed into the Lib Dems not being particularly representative in that they are very male and very, very white but at a fairly peripheral level. I suspect most people will assume that Rennard is of a generation that thought this kind of behaviour was ok, a view that now seems historic and frankly incomprehensible.
The problem is that Rennard does think that he did nothing wrong and that he has nothing to apologise for. He considers his behaviour in being somewhat suggestive to these women to be with the normal bounds of social intercourse between the sexes. What he is really showing is a lack of empathy. The women do not agree with his view and are offended and he is just not seeing it from their point of view.
Given his position in the party it was at least potentially an abuse of position even if that was not in his thoughts. It really should not have been too difficult for someone who has lived in the public life for a lot of years to make the leap of perspective and apologise for any offence he might have caused.
I am on the right in economic terms if rather more centralist on social issues but I think Clegg has had very little option to proceed as he has here. It is sad it has come to this and the QC really did not help with the way he dealt with things but no political leader today could simply ignore this or fail to act.
His leadership ambitions must have been damaged as a result.
As I noted earlier there appears to be a general right/left split on this. For the liberals I'd imagine the split would be roughly down the SDP (Back Clegg)/Liberal (Back Renard) lines of the party.
Farron is firmly on the left of the Lib Dems, he knows which parish he is preaching to. I'm not certain it does harm his leadership chances so much.
Farron is quite the social conservative as evidence by his votes on gay equality.
Interesting... Yes 57.8% (Ambiguous record) - but he certainly seems to be less socially conservative on this than the DUP
Farron is slightly conflicted on Gay marriage I suspect - as both a liberal, but also a firmly committed anglican. (NB: Assumption - I don't specifically know his votes or any reasons given)
Wow! So anyone accused of a crime who is acquitted should apologise for being charged! I'm not a lib dem nor do I like Mr Rennard but this is ridiculous.
He has *not* been acquitted of behaving inappropriately. There was not enough evidence to prove he brought the party into disrepute which hung on whether it could be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he intended to cause distress. But the evidence that he misbehaved in the ways reported was credible. He should apologise for how he behaved towards these women not for being charged.
Exactly. But you'll never get some people on here to see it that way. I'm beginning to wonder if some Peebies haven't got guilty secrets themselves.
You got me, my deep deep dark secret, I'm an admirer of Nick Clegg and the way a lot of Lib Dems put the national interest first and joined the coalition.
And my darkest secret of all, under the right scenario, I can see myself voting Lib Dem in 2015.
I'm waiting for the detailed Times data to come out. Which party supporters will be most sympathetic to Rennard? UKIP perhaps.
maybe the LD peers will defect to UKIP.
Well I'm certainly not sympathetic to Rennard and I don't know any Kipper who is. I think that he is an arrogant fool not to apologise for actual misdemeanours or suggestive slights to some female L/Demers and admit he behaved boorishly. If it was only that!
UKIP accepts most people who want to ascend to our ranks, however I don't think Rennard will be one of them.
Wow! So anyone accused of a crime who is acquitted should apologise for being charged! I'm not a lib dem nor do I like Mr Rennard but this is ridiculous.
He has *not* been acquitted of behaving inappropriately. There was not enough evidence to prove he brought the party into disrepute which hung on whether it could be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he intended to cause distress. But the evidence that he misbehaved in the ways reported was credible. He should apologise for how he behaved towards these women not for being charged.
Exactly. But you'll never get some people on here to see it that way. I'm beginning to wonder if some Peebies haven't got guilty secrets themselves.
You got me, my deep deep dark secret, I'm an admirer of Nick Clegg and the way a lot of Lib Dems put the national interest first and joined the coalition.
And my darkest secret of all, under the right scenario, I can see myself voting Lib Dem in 2015.
Problem is @TSE if you are considering voting Lib Dem, for any reason whatsoever (Even tactical) you can see why they might well have switchers to the Labour party...
Wow! So anyone accused of a crime who is acquitted should apologise for being charged! I'm not a lib dem nor do I like Mr Rennard but this is ridiculous.
He has *not* been acquitted of behaving inappropriately. There was not enough evidence to prove he brought the party into disrepute which hung on whether it could be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he intended to cause distress. But the evidence that he misbehaved in the ways reported was credible. He should apologise for how he behaved towards these women not for being charged.
Exactly. But you'll never get some people on here to see it that way. I'm beginning to wonder if some Peebies haven't got guilty secrets themselves.
You got me, my deep deep dark secret, I'm an admirer of Nick Clegg and the way a lot of Lib Dems put the national interest first and joined the coalition.
And my darkest secret of all, under the right scenario, I can see myself voting Lib Dem in 2015.
Problem is @TSE if you are considering voting Lib Dem, for any reason whatsoever (Even tactical) you can see why they might well have switchers to the Labour party...
I'm only voting Lib Dem if Nigel Farage stands in Hallam.
CCHQ Press Office@CCHQPress21 secs BBC Presenter referring to record fall in Unemployment: "A lot of people will be worried these figures are so good" #CantMakeItUp
Maybe he's worried that such a huge figure will turn out, later, to be false, as so many statistics (like crime) have turned out to be.
I now expect BBC wall to wall coverage of the evils of interest rate rises.
Someone should tell them to speak to savers for a change.
Savers should be buying stocks or property related investments.
I basically agree with that, but my point is that there are two sides to the interest rate debate, and one of them is given a lot less time than the other.
My guess is that Rennard is a bubble story because he is just not well known enough to get a lot of purchase on the public as a whole.
Polling evidence suggests it has gone beyond the Westminster village; whether it will be forgotten about before the election is anyone's guess. The coincidence with the headlines about celebs on trial is unfortunate.
That is for the voters; then there are internal party matters, including its effects (if any) on activists' willingness to push bar charts through letter boxes.
CCHQ Press Office@CCHQPress21 secs BBC Presenter referring to record fall in Unemployment: "A lot of people will be worried these figures are so good" #CantMakeItUp
Maybe he's worried that such a huge figure will turn out, later, to be false, as so many statistics (like crime) have turned out to be.
I'm waiting for the detailed Times data to come out. Which party supporters will be most sympathetic to Rennard? UKIP perhaps.
maybe the LD peers will defect to UKIP.
Well I'm certainly not sympathetic to Rennard and I don't know any Kipper who is. I think that he is an arrogant fool not to apologise for actual misdemeanours or suggestive slights to some female L/Demers and admit he behaved boorishly. If it was only that!
UKIP accepts most people who want to ascend to our ranks, however I don't think Rennard will be one of them.
Like it or lump it Mike you could do with his election skills. Maybe you could do a swap for Godfrey Bloom, there must be a transfer market for politicians somewhere.
Wow! So anyone accused of a crime who is acquitted should apologise for being charged! I'm not a lib dem nor do I like Mr Rennard but this is ridiculous.
He has *not* been acquitted of behaving inappropriately. There was not enough evidence to prove he brought the party into disrepute which hung on whether it could be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he intended to cause distress. But the evidence that he misbehaved in the ways reported was credible. He should apologise for how he behaved towards these women not for being charged.
Exactly. But you'll never get some people on here to see it that way. I'm beginning to wonder if some Peebies haven't got guilty secrets themselves.
You got me, my deep deep dark secret, I'm an admirer of Nick Clegg and the way a lot of Lib Dems put the national interest first and joined the coalition.
And my darkest secret of all, under the right scenario, I can see myself voting Lib Dem in 2015.
Problem is @TSE if you are considering voting Lib Dem, for any reason whatsoever (Even tactical) you can see why they might well have switchers to the Labour party...
I'm only voting Lib Dem if Nigel Farage stands in Hallam.
I think that's a sufficiently remote possibility that you don't really need to worry.
Comments
"Good on the Naked Rambler – more public nudity would be a good thing
Stephen Gough is back in jail. Embracing his activism might just do wonders for our society's unhealthy attitude to flesh":
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/07/naked-rambler-public-nudity-stephen-gough?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487
Link to last night's BBC programme:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b039086d
(a) if a candidate wants to use a description other than "Independent" (or no description) he needs an authorisation certificate from the party to say that he is a member of the party and is therefore allowed to use the description.
(b) if a candidate wants to use a party logo, he needs an authorisation certificate from the party to say that he is allowed to use that logo.
(c) the two above (a and b) are two separate documents, and are done separately.
This simply means that Mr Williams did (b) but forgot to do (a) - or at least, forgot to write in the description. It is compulsory to be a party member if a candidate wants to use the party name, but it is not compulsory to use the party name if a candidate is a party member.
The title of the thread is misleading. When I read the words "taking a much tougher view", I took it to mean that they were less tolerant of the impertinent and ultra-vires demand by Alistair Webster QC that Lord Rennard should apologise for something he hasn't done, and of the attitude of Nick Clegg in continuing to dig himself further into a hole.
First!
Look at the gender gap !!!
(Repeat until election...)
modesty forbids etc
However, I can say I am almost lost for words at the idiocy of the Lib Dems and their elementary errors in misconstruing their own rules.
Any fool can see that they have found the allegations don't come up to proof, yet for political reasons they don't wish to say that straight, and are trying to extract an apology from Rennard, to appease the complainants.
Which is entirely contrary to their own rules, the principles of natural justice and the principles of good faith.
Whether that is concordant with natural justice is a quite separate matter.
Even in other criminal trials, our prosecutors seem to have adopted the American approach of going beyond circumstantial evidence and trying to prejudice the jury. Look at the pictures of Dennehy in the papers. Whatever the evidence that defendant X robbed the bank or called the police plebs, he looks like the sort of person who might have done.
How about a theory that mitochondria are an example of hybrid evolution? An example of a biological 'machine' improving a cell.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/10584380/Why-robot-sex-could-be-the-future-of-life-on-earth.html
off-topic.
at least Alex Salmond now has his strategy for a YES majority: include in his manifesto (do they have manifestos?) a pledge to give each new Scottish citizen £500. 52% on this basis will say YES. Job done.
Party membership, let alone a concomitant benefit such as a Whip in the Lords, is not a right. It's a privilege. Would any of the Lib Dems on this board want to see Rennard as their candidate for an elected office (e.g. a Mayoralty or a Euro-seat) right now?
No? I thought not.
I think the language is getting a little out of hand.
EITHER ask a question, and then have the courtesy to wait for the other person to give their own answer,
OR don't ask the question in the first place.
rennardisinnocentcleggisabooliakbringbackseantfreethethailandone
I think we should be told!
Personally I simply think there is no right answer for the Lib Dems here. Their failure to investigate things in a timely manner means they are entirely a hostage to the fortune of whichever way Rennard wants to play it. And as they've hung him out to dry I can't blame him for his actions.
http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2014/01/22/labour-needs-to-stop-fiddling-and-get-on-with-the-big-stuff/#more-17743
"If this sounds a little bad-tempered, that’s because it is. This comes across not as economic policy, but a self-indulgent wander up Wonk Lane by people with considerable experience in the academic theory of finance and none in its practice.
The economy is still the only story which matters, which means the big stuff. And while our modest poll lead is burning away, we, like Nero, are fiddling."
I think it is the public humiliation as much as anything that has got Rennard's goat up.
I believe it was the anniversary of Orwell's death the other day - he might just be spinning in his grave!
Rennard denies the allegations against him. Neither the Police nor the Party have been able as yet to prove his guilt. It appears for some that merely to be suspected of something is sufficient to warrant an apology which could leave him open to being sued. As I said I hold no brief for him or the LDs but this seems like a modern day witch-hunt.
Mr. Flashman (deceased), I'd heard a similar comment elsewhere. I think that's a rather worrying comment. As a man who was told by about three separate people at university (in the first month) he looked like a serial killer/psychopath I don't think we should judge people based on how photogenic they are.
The gender breakdown is interesting, though perhaps unsurprising. The problem is that he has not been found to have done anything wrong. An accusation is not sufficient to establish guilt.
Membership of a political party and serving in Parliament is not a right, it is a duty and a privilege. Rennard, whether he intended to or not, clearly upset these women sufficient that they chose to go public. That, in itself and regardless of guilt/innocence/provability or not, is worthy of an apology. There must be some suitable formulation that you can come up with that apologises for distress without accepting guilt.
And Clegg has clearly balls the whole thing up.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-25834730
More importantly, there should be an investigation into how the police lost some critical evidence against Hancock.
It stinks.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/12/police-losing-evidence-sexual-assault-mike-hancock
Will we see the Labour VI share jump as a result? If it does push more women over to the reds, will they be permanent?
The longer this goes on the more potentially damaging it is, but we've seen so many "potentially" damaging events recently that have not registered at all (as far as VI goes anyway), I'm minded to think that it'll just become part of the background politicians-are-all-bstards noise.
He needs a legal victory to overturn that guilty verdict.
I wonder if Ed will raise this at PMQs, it will force Dave to either take the pee out of the Lib Dems or he'll have to defend them and be associated with Rennard.
His leadership ambitions must have been damaged as a result.
I clicked on the Rennard thread and it took me a few minutes to realise that it was two days old. The same arguments are being repeated over and over.
I reckon the issue is whether he was clumsy in manner or approach, or if he was taking advantage of his position. We can only guess at his motives, a subjective view -as the investigation admitted. That probably explains the sex divide.
It all depends on your prejudice.
Murray's struggling like a Carthiginian at Zama
Michael Deacon@MichaelPDeacon1 min
Clegg is asked about story that Miriam influenced his decisions on Rennard. He scoffs at the idea. As if a Lib Dem would listen to a woman!
Ronan Keating may have put it slightly more catchily.
Farron is firmly on the left of the Lib Dems, he knows which parish he is preaching to. I'm not certain it does harm his leadership chances so much.
http://order-order.com/2014/01/22/burley-report-in-full/
"Which party supporters will be most sympathetic to Rennard? UKIP perhaps."
Very interesting. The LDs would prefer him to apologise along the lines of "I'm sorry for any unintended offence caused."
A tricky one all round. Someone looking like Rennard could cause offence with what is construed as being a lascivious wink.
If it were to come from George Clooney however?
So he might feel he's being penalised for being ugly.
It's hard not to give George Osborne credit for this. Gordon Brown and Ed Balls would be taking credit for it if they were in office. And they'd be slamming Osborne if unemployment was rising.
I thought unemployment would rise during this parliament. I'd obviously been smoking whatever David "5 million unemployed" Blanchflower had been rolling.
CCHQ Press Office@CCHQPress21 secs
BBC Presenter referring to record fall in Unemployment: "A lot of people will be worried these figures are so good" #CantMakeItUp
Tom Newton Dunn@tnewtondunn1 min
Extraordinary jobs figures just out: unemployment down 167,000 between Sept and Nov to 2.32 mil. Largest drop sine records began in 1970.
Not sure this month's psbr figures are as good....but I can't make head nor tail of the ONS stats. I need Avery's yellow tables.
George Eaton@georgeeaton6 mins
Last August, Bank of England expected unemployment to reach 7% in 2016. It's 7.1% now.
The problem is that Rennard does think that he did nothing wrong and that he has nothing to apologise for. He considers his behaviour in being somewhat suggestive to these women to be with the normal bounds of social intercourse between the sexes. What he is really showing is a lack of empathy. The women do not agree with his view and are offended and he is just not seeing it from their point of view.
Given his position in the party it was at least potentially an abuse of position even if that was not in his thoughts. It really should not have been too difficult for someone who has lived in the public life for a lot of years to make the leap of perspective and apologise for any offence he might have caused.
I am on the right in economic terms if rather more centralist on social issues but I think Clegg has had very little option to proceed as he has here. It is sad it has come to this and the QC really did not help with the way he dealt with things but no political leader today could simply ignore this or fail to act.
POEBWAS
ABSOLUBTE RICK he said !
And my darkest secret of all, under the right scenario, I can see myself voting Lib Dem in 2015.
UKIP accepts most people who want to ascend to our ranks, however I don't think Rennard will be one of them.
http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/wr16pixymw/YG-Archive-140121-Rennard.pdf
CCHQ Press Office@CCHQPress21 secs
BBC Presenter referring to record fall in Unemployment: "A lot of people will be worried these figures are so good" #CantMakeItUp
Maybe he's worried that such a huge figure will turn out, later, to be false, as so many statistics (like crime) have turned out to be.
That is for the voters; then there are internal party matters, including its effects (if any) on activists' willingness to push bar charts through letter boxes.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ukip-made-up-take-great-ukip-3048561#.Ut-VDX_fWK0