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So far the polling’s not looking bad for LizT – politicalbetting.com

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  • The lack of an electricity trading framework meant that upon Britain’s exit from the EU single energy market on January 1, 2021, the U.K. moved to a more inefficient system for buying and selling electricity through subsea inter-connectors linking Britain with France, the Netherlands and Belgium. This is adding hundreds of millions of pounds per year to the energy bills of British households, according to the U.K. energy industry.

    And two years after Brexit, Britain has not yet managed to be readmitted to the North Sea Energy Cooperation (NSEC) platform, an intergovernmental organization to develop offshore wind-farms in the North Sea region and accelerate the transition to renewables. The Commission kicked Britain out of the group in 2020 despite it not being an EU agency, ignoring calls by several member countries and the EU’s Green Deal chief Frans Timmermans for the U.K. to remain.


    https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-accuses-eu-stalling-energy-cooperation-amid-crisis/


    Particularly daft given we have the majority of offshore wind generation in the North Sea at the moment. We generate just under 50% of the total European offshore wind (which includes Mediterranean generation). Cutting us out of the system is just plain dumb.
    Most of the members objected to the UK being excluded as it was an intergovernmental agreement not an EU one but the Commission & Germany got their way.
  • Truss leads Starmer by 7% in the Red Wall.

    At this moment, which of the following do Red Wall voters think would be the better PM for the UK? (19-20 September)

    Liz Truss 40% (+8)
    Keir Starmer 33% (-6)
    Don't Know 27% (-2)

    Changes +/- 4 September

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-red-wall-voting-intention-18-19-september-2022

    Even Gordon Brown and the pound shop Gordon Brown led in the polls when they became.

    This is quite striking.

    Our latest Red Wall poll finds Labour leading the Conservatives by 15%, two points less than in our previous poll two weeks ago. Altogether, the results of our poll (with changes from 4 September) are as follows:

    Labour 49% (+1)
    Conservative 34% (+3)
    Reform UK 7% (–)
    Liberal Democrat 5% (-2)
    Green 4% (-1)
    Other 1% (–)
    Plaid Cymru 0% (-1)
  • Chris said:

    Question is, what does Putin want really? Does he want Crimea, Zap, Kherson, Luhansk and Donbass and then stop? Does he want that plus regime change? Does he want the Baltics, Moldova, Armenia?

    He just wants to be treated with the respect that's due to him.

    image
    Even the horses in Russia look depressed.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,984
    Chris said:

    Question is, what does Putin want really? Does he want Crimea, Zap, Kherson, Luhansk and Donbass and then stop? Does he want that plus regime change? Does he want the Baltics, Moldova, Armenia?

    He just wants to be treated with the respect that's due to him.

    image
    He needs @DuraAce to regulate his...... fitness regime.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,783
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Does anyone know what’s actually going on in Leicester?
    Richard 111 will be turning in his grave
    Why? Sectarian violence was the sort of thing he revelled in.
    Sectarian? Did they sing the Billy Boys or something? Or is it to do with the Lollards?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 7,459
    edited September 2022
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Congratulations to everyone on the British Left from 1960-2020. Good work
    Yes, I think we've contributing to making Britain a more successful multiracial country than most of the rest of Europe. Good for us, we've done well.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,605
    edited September 2022

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    @Telegraph
    5m
    "The next James Bond films will have bigger roles for women and a more sensitive 007, according to the producers, who said “Bond is evolving just as men are evolving”

    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1572611839485251587?s=20&t=DBkpcYPhQqr3TJDm9GeP9Q

    ™The Spy Who Really Respected Me"?
    I hate to sound like Leon, but this strikes me as a very stupid move. Bond fans won't buy any 'evolved' agenda and it's unlikely to attract new ones by pretending to be more in tune with the modern world.

    If you feel it's inappropriate for the modern world, don't make any more films.
    Please, the last Bond film featured a black woman as 007, the world has moved on.
    It was also not very good.

    Perhaps it's time to accept the world really has moved on?
    The fact that it wasn't very good had nothing to do with the black woman as 007. Indeed her role seemed token (rather insulting really) compared to, say, Michelle Yeoh in Tomorrow Never Dies.

    The reason it wasn't very good was an attempt to shovel all kinds of odds and ends into the plot. It seemed like a bad video game. Especially the last act.
    All of which is true. But - it still wasn't very good. Partly because of the tokenism which felt awkwardly shoehorned in but more because of the attempt to make it more modern/credible in terms of Bond's character while having the daftest secret weapon ever as the key plot point.

    Which might be, as I said, a sign that it's time to retire the franchise. Sixty years is a good run and ending it with the death of Bond would feel appropriate.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,515

    Men who eat meat should be banned from having sex, the animal rights group Peta has demanded, claiming that devouring sausages and schnitzel is a symptom of “toxic masculinity” which is killing the planet.

    Peta’s German operation cited research from the scientific journal PLOS One which showed that men caused 41 per cent more greenhouse gas emissions than women largely because they consumed more meat.

    Peta demanded a “sex ban for all meat-eating men” and called on women to “go on sex strike to save the world”.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ban-meat-eating-men-from-sex-animal-rights-group-urges-d9rk3850z

    If we're not supposed to eat animals why are they made out of meat?

    Well then we'd better stop eating beaver as well, to save the planet
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 2,656

    HYUFD said:

    @Telegraph
    5m
    "The next James Bond films will have bigger roles for women and a more sensitive 007, according to the producers, who said “Bond is evolving just as men are evolving”

    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1572611839485251587?s=20&t=DBkpcYPhQqr3TJDm9GeP9Q

    ™The Spy Who Really Respected Me"?
    “Mr Kiss Kiss, but only on receipt of a written statement of consent”?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 8,112

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    #BREAKING: Huge Traffic Jam reported at the Russian-Mongolian border in Buryatia.

    So as well as Russians having to buy weaponry from North Korea, Russians are now fleeing to Mongolia.
    Not really signs of a country in robust good health.
    You would have thought any youngish man would have googled "How to leave Russia" months ago rather, as seems the case, today.
    Yes, that was my thought yesterday.
    But I suppose many thought "we will win this easily" or "they will come for someone else first".
    Inertia is the most powerful force in the world.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Meanwhile two Met officers found guilty in relation to the disgusting messages they shared in a WhatsApp group with Sarah Everard's killer.

    Good news.

    Sentencing on 2 Nov.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-62981675
    Ok - they are obviously shits but I am at a loss to know what crime they committed? Is it an offence to send a grossly offensive message to a friend? Is that different to a phone call saying the same things?
    Since the BBC story cited does NOT state the actual crime committed, hard to answer your questions.

    Suspect fact that these assholes were/are police officers MIGHT have something to do with it?
  • To Russia with Peace and Love.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,605
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Does anyone know what’s actually going on in Leicester?
    Richard 111 will be turning in his grave
    Why? Sectarian violence was the sort of thing he revelled in.
    Sectarian? Did they sing the Billy Boys or something? Or is it to do with the Lollards?
    Northerners vs Southerners, in his case.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 954
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Congratulations to everyone on the British Left from 1960-2020. Good work
    *rubbing the right's nose in diversity* - I think they'll be very pleased with the outcome.
    Out of curiousity, I've just googled this individual - he now works as a communications officer for TfL dealing with air quality.
    I sometimes wonder whether we need to do what the US does with quotas for different nationalities for some visas, to ensure integration happens. The theory is that if people all come from different backgrounds they are more likely to intermix into the host culture.

    A really smart way to do it would be to base it on levels of integration, from statistics on concentration of where people live or levels of mixed marriage. If you are from a group like Thais or Poles that have become part of the melting pot, we can sustain more immigration. If you are from a group that forms its own enclaves and only marries their own, we might need a cooling off period before more come.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 3,057
    edited September 2022
    (deleted, Vanilla doesn't like the image)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,984
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    @Telegraph
    5m
    "The next James Bond films will have bigger roles for women and a more sensitive 007, according to the producers, who said “Bond is evolving just as men are evolving”

    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1572611839485251587?s=20&t=DBkpcYPhQqr3TJDm9GeP9Q

    ™The Spy Who Really Respected Me"?
    I hate to sound like Leon, but this strikes me as a very stupid move. Bond fans won't buy any 'evolved' agenda and it's unlikely to attract new ones by pretending to be more in tune with the modern world.

    If you feel it's inappropriate for the modern world, don't make any more films.
    Please, the last Bond film featured a black woman as 007, the world has moved on.
    It was also not very good.

    Perhaps it's time to accept the world really has moved on?
    The fact that it wasn't very good had nothing to do with the black woman as 007. Indeed her role seemed token (rather insulting really) compared to, say, Michelle Yeoh in Tomorrow Never Dies.

    The reason it wasn't very good was an attempt to shovel all kinds of odds and ends into the plot. It seemed like a bad video game. Especially the last act.
    All of which is true. But - it still wasn't very good. Partly because of the tokenism which felt awkwardly shoehorned in but more because of the attempt to make it more modern/credible in terms of Bond's character while having the daftest secret weapon ever as the key plot point.

    Which might be, as I said, a sign that it's time to retire the franchise.
    That's what they said before. And then Golden Eye rebooted it. Brilliantly.

    Atomic Blonde showed what could be done, if you want a female action spy.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,605
    Leon said:

    Men who eat meat should be banned from having sex, the animal rights group Peta has demanded, claiming that devouring sausages and schnitzel is a symptom of “toxic masculinity” which is killing the planet.

    Peta’s German operation cited research from the scientific journal PLOS One which showed that men caused 41 per cent more greenhouse gas emissions than women largely because they consumed more meat.

    Peta demanded a “sex ban for all meat-eating men” and called on women to “go on sex strike to save the world”.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ban-meat-eating-men-from-sex-animal-rights-group-urges-d9rk3850z

    If we're not supposed to eat animals why are they made out of meat?

    Well then we'd better stop eating beaver as well, to save the planet
    What about pussy?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,783
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Does anyone know what’s actually going on in Leicester?
    Richard 111 will be turning in his grave
    Why? Sectarian violence was the sort of thing he revelled in.
    Sectarian? Did they sing the Billy Boys or something? Or is it to do with the Lollards?
    Northerners vs Southerners, in his case.
    Ah, thanks. Being a Yorkshireman is a religion? Coo.
  • Fracking in the UK will be impossible at any meaningful scale and will not help with the energy price crisis, the founder of the UK’s first fracking company has warned.

    Chris Cornelius, the geologist who founded Cuadrilla Resources, which drilled the UK’s first modern hydraulic fracturing wells in Lancashire, told the Guardian that he believed the government’s support for it is merely a “political gesture”.


    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/21/fracking-wont-work-uk-founder-chris-cornelius-cuadrilla?CMP=share_btn_tw
  • Sustainable Resources Finger.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Meanwhile two Met officers found guilty in relation to the disgusting messages they shared in a WhatsApp group with Sarah Everard's killer.

    Good news.

    Sentencing on 2 Nov.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-62981675
    Ok - they are obviously shits but I am at a loss to know what crime they committed? Is it an offence to send a grossly offensive message to a friend? Is that different to a phone call saying the same things?
    Since the BBC story cited does NOT state the actual crime committed, hard to answer your questions.

    Suspect fact that these assholes were/are police officers MIGHT have something to do with it?
    i think the crime used for these sorts of things is Misconduct in a public office
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 2,644
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    @Telegraph
    5m
    "The next James Bond films will have bigger roles for women and a more sensitive 007, according to the producers, who said “Bond is evolving just as men are evolving”

    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1572611839485251587?s=20&t=DBkpcYPhQqr3TJDm9GeP9Q

    ™The Spy Who Really Respected Me"?
    I hate to sound like Leon, but this strikes me as a very stupid move. Bond fans won't buy any 'evolved' agenda and it's unlikely to attract new ones by pretending to be more in tune with the modern world.

    If you feel it's inappropriate for the modern world, don't make any more films.
    I don't see the point of Bond films any more. Other franchises do similar things better. I remember the big slightly campy action films of late Roger Moore in my childhood, but something like Fast and Furious or Kingsmen does that better now. If you want something more serious, give me another Bourne movie.

    But the people who make Bond want to do more, so I guess you have to modernise them or do them as period pieces (the way Christie often is).
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,515
    edited September 2022
    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    @Telegraph
    5m
    "The next James Bond films will have bigger roles for women and a more sensitive 007, according to the producers, who said “Bond is evolving just as men are evolving”

    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1572611839485251587?s=20&t=DBkpcYPhQqr3TJDm9GeP9Q

    ... and audiences down 80% I imagine. If people wanted sensitive, woke characters, they'd probably watch romcoms. Bond is supposed to be a licensed thug and killer.
    It also means that a non-Woke Bond will simply replace the actual Bond, finishing off Bond. So stupid

    People want unbridled masculinity, violence, with lots of bedded hot women. That's the point

    Interestingly, younger friends of mine are reporting this from the field. In publishing, Hollywood, the arts, amongst really young people - especially men - there is suddenly a hunger for non-Woke ultra-macho movies, books, memoirs, magazines, video games. and so on

    There is a killing to be made if you've got the cullions

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,783
    edited September 2022

    Fracking in the UK will be impossible at any meaningful scale and will not help with the energy price crisis, the founder of the UK’s first fracking company has warned.

    Chris Cornelius, the geologist who founded Cuadrilla Resources, which drilled the UK’s first modern hydraulic fracturing wells in Lancashire, told the Guardian that he believed the government’s support for it is merely a “political gesture”.


    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/21/fracking-wont-work-uk-founder-chris-cornelius-cuadrilla?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Mm, thanks, now that is interesting (but unsurprising). Wonder if the PB frackers will believe him?

    Edit: He's co-written an op-ed.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/21/liz-truss-fracking-britain-economic-political-low-carbon-cuadrilla

    With an interesting sting in the tail:

    "In addition to the gesture at shale gas, we believe that two other readily available sources of net zero energy ought to be pursued.

    One is the vast amount of warm, non-potable brine underneath large parts of the country – an energy source we have been evaluating for potential future ventures. [...]

    And then there is Britain’s tidal range, second highest in the world."
  • President Putin is thinking/pretending he is 21st century's answer to Comrade Stalin.

    When actually he is modern-dress (or undress) equivalent to Czar Nicholas II.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,984
    WillG said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Congratulations to everyone on the British Left from 1960-2020. Good work
    *rubbing the right's nose in diversity* - I think they'll be very pleased with the outcome.
    Out of curiousity, I've just googled this individual - he now works as a communications officer for TfL dealing with air quality.
    I sometimes wonder whether we need to do what the US does with quotas for different nationalities for some visas, to ensure integration happens. The theory is that if people all come from different backgrounds they are more likely to intermix into the host culture.

    A really smart way to do it would be to base it on levels of integration, from statistics on concentration of where people live or levels of mixed marriage. If you are from a group like Thais or Poles that have become part of the melting pot, we can sustain more immigration. If you are from a group that forms its own enclaves and only marries their own, we might need a cooling off period before more come.
    One thing that 1st generation immigrants in my own family have commented on, is that they have felt the "Keep your own culture" thing as coming across as "Brits only can be Brits".

    They came here to become British. Not to be an ethnic enclave.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,060

    Truss leads Starmer by 7% in the Red Wall.

    At this moment, which of the following do Red Wall voters think would be the better PM for the UK? (19-20 September)

    Liz Truss 40% (+8)
    Keir Starmer 33% (-6)
    Don't Know 27% (-2)

    Changes +/- 4 September

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-red-wall-voting-intention-18-19-september-2022

    Even Gordon Brown and the pound shop Gordon Brown led in the polls when they became.

    This is quite striking.

    Our latest Red Wall poll finds Labour leading the Conservatives by 15%, two points less than in our previous poll two weeks ago. Altogether, the results of our poll (with changes from 4 September) are as follows:

    Labour 49% (+1)
    Conservative 34% (+3)
    Reform UK 7% (–)
    Liberal Democrat 5% (-2)
    Green 4% (-1)
    Other 1% (–)
    Plaid Cymru 0% (-1)
    That’s just merely same as all others, Liz surge at expense of libdems, in the roundabout of voters isn’t it?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,605
    edited September 2022
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Does anyone know what’s actually going on in Leicester?
    Richard 111 will be turning in his grave
    Why? Sectarian violence was the sort of thing he revelled in.
    Sectarian? Did they sing the Billy Boys or something? Or is it to do with the Lollards?
    Northerners vs Southerners, in his case.
    Ah, thanks. Being a Yorkshireman is a religion? Coo.
    'Sectarian' doesn't have to mean 'religious.'

    Although, TBF, @MoonRabbit seems to have nearly elevated it to this...
  • Leon said:

    Men who eat meat should be banned from having sex, the animal rights group Peta has demanded, claiming that devouring sausages and schnitzel is a symptom of “toxic masculinity” which is killing the planet.

    Peta’s German operation cited research from the scientific journal PLOS One which showed that men caused 41 per cent more greenhouse gas emissions than women largely because they consumed more meat.

    Peta demanded a “sex ban for all meat-eating men” and called on women to “go on sex strike to save the world”.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ban-meat-eating-men-from-sex-animal-rights-group-urges-d9rk3850z

    If we're not supposed to eat animals why are they made out of meat?

    Well then we'd better stop eating beaver as well, to save the planet
    Apropos of absolutely nothing the Mongolian word for beaver is minj.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 2,644

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Trump sounds to be in real trouble. Valuing property 2 to 3 times their worth.

    It’s always worth remembering in cases like this, that the “State Attorney General” is a directly elected position in the US. She is a politician as well as a prosecutor.
    She ran on a 'get Trump' ticket
    That of course does not inform as to the outcome though
    Indeed, and something which Trump, irrespective of the merits (or otherwise) of the case, will seek to run all the way up to the Supreme Court as being a politically-motivated prosecution. Or he’ll formally declare he’s running in 2024, and see it adjourned until after the election.
    Quite. This will simply deepen the divide in the US
    There is prima facie evidence that Trump/Trump Org committed fraud. Should we give up on concepts like Justice because prosecuting Trump will deepen the divide in the US? Ultimately, is not the divide best healed by respecting process and saying that a nation can and will treat everyone equally?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,515

    Leon said:

    Men who eat meat should be banned from having sex, the animal rights group Peta has demanded, claiming that devouring sausages and schnitzel is a symptom of “toxic masculinity” which is killing the planet.

    Peta’s German operation cited research from the scientific journal PLOS One which showed that men caused 41 per cent more greenhouse gas emissions than women largely because they consumed more meat.

    Peta demanded a “sex ban for all meat-eating men” and called on women to “go on sex strike to save the world”.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ban-meat-eating-men-from-sex-animal-rights-group-urges-d9rk3850z

    If we're not supposed to eat animals why are they made out of meat?

    Well then we'd better stop eating beaver as well, to save the planet
    Apropos of absolutely nothing the Mongolian word for beaver is minj.
    ahahahahAHAHAHAHAHA

    That's my favourite fact of THE WEEK

    Thankee
  • Driver said:

    Breaking: New York Attorney General Letitia James has filed a civil fraud lawsuit against former President Donald Trump and others, according to court records.

    https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/1572608786061213702

    A civil lawsuit? So they don't think they can prove any crimes were committed?
    No. It's more a matter of what can be proven.

    And filing state civil suite now, does NOT preclude state (or federal) criminal charges in future.
  • Chris said:

    Question is, what does Putin want really? Does he want Crimea, Zap, Kherson, Luhansk and Donbass and then stop? Does he want that plus regime change? Does he want the Baltics, Moldova, Armenia?

    He just wants to be treated with the respect that's due to him.

    image
    The Matt cartoon just out is a classic:

    https://twitter.com/MattCartoonist/status/1572622182618116096
  • DriverDriver Posts: 3,057
    Yes, it's a diesel bus.


  • WillGWillG Posts: 954

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Congratulations to everyone on the British Left from 1960-2020. Good work
    Yes, I think we've contributing to making Britain a more successful multiracial country than nearly any other in Europe. Good for us, we've done well.
    If the most successful examples entail sectarian riots, I am not sure that is the killer example argument you think it is.

    However, I am not going to fall for the suggestion that this is just part of being a multiracial society. In reality there are lots of immigrants who integrate and have civilized standards of conduct. We should only be keeping out the ones with hardline religious/cultural views that condone violence or try to institute honour culture.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 1,217
    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    @Telegraph
    5m
    "The next James Bond films will have bigger roles for women and a more sensitive 007, according to the producers, who said “Bond is evolving just as men are evolving”

    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1572611839485251587?s=20&t=DBkpcYPhQqr3TJDm9GeP9Q

    ... and audiences down 80% I imagine. If people wanted sensitive, woke characters, they'd probably watch romcoms. Bond is supposed to be a licensed thug and killer.
    It also means that a non-Woke Bond will simply replace the actual Bond, finishing off Bond. So stupid

    People want unbridled masculinity, violence, with lots of bedded hot women. That's the point

    Interestingly, younger friends of mine are reporting this from the field. In publishing, Hollywood, the arts, amongst really young people - especially men - there is suddenly a hunger for non-Woke ultra-macho movies, books, memoirs, magazines, video games. and so on

    There is a killing to be made if you've got the cullions

    The latest Predator movie could be viewed as filling this need. Was something of a breakout hit IIRC.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,984

    Cyclefree said:

    Meanwhile two Met officers found guilty in relation to the disgusting messages they shared in a WhatsApp group with Sarah Everard's killer.

    Good news.

    Sentencing on 2 Nov.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-62981675
    Ok - they are obviously shits but I am at a loss to know what crime they committed? Is it an offence to send a grossly offensive message to a friend? Is that different to a phone call saying the same things?
    Since the BBC story cited does NOT state the actual crime committed, hard to answer your questions.

    Suspect fact that these assholes were/are police officers MIGHT have something to do with it?
    i think the crime used for these sorts of things is Misconduct in a public office
    The article is badly written.. but it refers to another officer being cleared, earlier


    William Neville, from Weybridge in Surrey, 34, was cleared of sending grossly offensive messages following a trial at Westminster Magistrates' Court in July.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,061

    Chris said:

    Question is, what does Putin want really? Does he want Crimea, Zap, Kherson, Luhansk and Donbass and then stop? Does he want that plus regime change? Does he want the Baltics, Moldova, Armenia?

    He just wants to be treated with the respect that's due to him.

    image
    He needs @DuraAce to regulate his...... fitness regime.
    I doubt Dura Ace will be in such good shape when he's 79.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,060

    Truss leads Starmer by 7% in the Red Wall.

    At this moment, which of the following do Red Wall voters think would be the better PM for the UK? (19-20 September)

    Liz Truss 40% (+8)
    Keir Starmer 33% (-6)
    Don't Know 27% (-2)

    Changes +/- 4 September

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-red-wall-voting-intention-18-19-september-2022

    That is an astonishing measurement of the Liz surge going on, added to all the different ways it’s being looked for by Mike in this header.

    Those of us who laughed at the idea of a Truss bounce are very wrong.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,189
    edited September 2022

    Truss leads Starmer by 7% in the Red Wall.

    At this moment, which of the following do Red Wall voters think would be the better PM for the UK? (19-20 September)

    Liz Truss 40% (+8)
    Keir Starmer 33% (-6)
    Don't Know 27% (-2)

    Changes +/- 4 September

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-red-wall-voting-intention-18-19-september-2022

    Even Gordon Brown and the pound shop Gordon Brown led in the polls when they became.

    This is quite striking.

    Our latest Red Wall poll finds Labour leading the Conservatives by 15%, two points less than in our previous poll two weeks ago. Altogether, the results of our poll (with changes from 4 September) are as follows:

    Labour 49% (+1)
    Conservative 34% (+3)
    Reform UK 7% (–)
    Liberal Democrat 5% (-2)
    Green 4% (-1)
    Other 1% (–)
    Plaid Cymru 0% (-1)
    That’s just merely same as all others, Liz surge at expense of libdems, in the roundabout of voters isn’t it?
    Yes, Liz has lost the redwall seats in the North, the Midlands and Wales back to Labour but she has regained a few voters from the LDs, so if the Tories are lucky they might regain Chesham and Amersham and Tiverton and Honiton and hold Woking and Wantage!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,690
    edited September 2022
    Carnyx said:

    Fracking in the UK will be impossible at any meaningful scale and will not help with the energy price crisis, the founder of the UK’s first fracking company has warned.

    Chris Cornelius, the geologist who founded Cuadrilla Resources, which drilled the UK’s first modern hydraulic fracturing wells in Lancashire, told the Guardian that he believed the government’s support for it is merely a “political gesture”.


    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/21/fracking-wont-work-uk-founder-chris-cornelius-cuadrilla?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Mm, thanks, now that is interesting (but unsurprising). Wonder if the PB frackers will believe him?

    Edit: He's co-written an op-ed.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/21/liz-truss-fracking-britain-economic-political-low-carbon-cuadrilla

    With an interesting sting in the tail:

    "In addition to the gesture at shale gas, we believe that two other readily available sources of net zero energy ought to be pursued.

    One is the vast amount of warm, non-potable brine underneath large parts of the country – an energy source we have been evaluating for potential future ventures. [...]

    And then there is Britain’s tidal range, second highest in the world."
    You can’t buck the market geology.


    Edit - he has an interest in thermal, but not in tidal.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,783
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Does anyone know what’s actually going on in Leicester?
    Richard 111 will be turning in his grave
    Why? Sectarian violence was the sort of thing he revelled in.
    Sectarian? Did they sing the Billy Boys or something? Or is it to do with the Lollards?
    Northerners vs Southerners, in his case.
    Ah, thanks. Being a Yorkshireman is a religion? Coo.
    'Sectarian' doesn't have to mean 'religious.'

    Although, TBF, @MoonRabbit seems to have nearly elevated it to this...
    TBF also the belief in Scottish independence is a protected *philosophical* belief in law - much to MoD disgust when they tried to nobble a SNP activist.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 3,057

    Driver said:

    Breaking: New York Attorney General Letitia James has filed a civil fraud lawsuit against former President Donald Trump and others, according to court records.

    https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/1572608786061213702

    A civil lawsuit? So they don't think they can prove any crimes were committed?
    No. It's more a matter of what can be proven.

    And filing state civil suite now, does NOT preclude state (or federal) criminal charges in future.
    The second sentence implies "yes", doesn't it?

    As for the third, how can there possibly be a fair criminal trial after a civil lawsuit?
  • Chris said:

    Henry Foy
    @HenryJFoy
    ·
    47m
    "This is probably the most delicate phase of this decades-long game of chicken," said a senior European diplomat. "Putin is actively trying to sow discord."

    "But if Putin blinks he is gone and with him the dream of a resurgent imperial Russia."

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1572596705899745281

    Is it a coincidence that this is accompanied by a photo of a large penis on wheels?
    Your comment has made me fondly remember "Whoops Apocalypse". I may have to find and rewatch. It could have aged very badly.
    Oh, it has. Don't make the same mistake I made. Keep it as a fond memory.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,515
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Men who eat meat should be banned from having sex, the animal rights group Peta has demanded, claiming that devouring sausages and schnitzel is a symptom of “toxic masculinity” which is killing the planet.

    Peta’s German operation cited research from the scientific journal PLOS One which showed that men caused 41 per cent more greenhouse gas emissions than women largely because they consumed more meat.

    Peta demanded a “sex ban for all meat-eating men” and called on women to “go on sex strike to save the world”.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ban-meat-eating-men-from-sex-animal-rights-group-urges-d9rk3850z

    If we're not supposed to eat animals why are they made out of meat?

    Well then we'd better stop eating beaver as well, to save the planet
    What about pussy?
    Or indeed monkey

    And I for one am going to go further, and avoid some crustacea. Such as the bearded clam
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 2,822
    edited September 2022
    Driver said:

    Meanwhile, in "utter hypocrisy" news...



    Yes, that's a diesel bus.

    My brother in law once drove an old car all the way up the M1 and M6 to Glasgow in order to burn it in a 'carhenge' at Pollok Park. To protest about ... a motorway. That was probably 30 years ago.

    Situation normal.
  • eekeek Posts: 22,060

    Fracking in the UK will be impossible at any meaningful scale and will not help with the energy price crisis, the founder of the UK’s first fracking company has warned.

    Chris Cornelius, the geologist who founded Cuadrilla Resources, which drilled the UK’s first modern hydraulic fracturing wells in Lancashire, told the Guardian that he believed the government’s support for it is merely a “political gesture”.


    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/21/fracking-wont-work-uk-founder-chris-cornelius-cuadrilla?CMP=share_btn_tw

    As my Nan would say

    "Never in this world"

    Of course it's political gesturing - that's the only thing this Government has left now the cupboard is completely empty.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,185
    ...
  • Fracking in the UK will be impossible at any meaningful scale and will not help with the energy price crisis, the founder of the UK’s first fracking company has warned.

    Chris Cornelius, the geologist who founded Cuadrilla Resources, which drilled the UK’s first modern hydraulic fracturing wells in Lancashire, told the Guardian that he believed the government’s support for it is merely a “political gesture”.


    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/21/fracking-wont-work-uk-founder-chris-cornelius-cuadrilla?CMP=share_btn_tw

    As many of us have been saying for a long time.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,189

    Men who eat meat should be banned from having sex, the animal rights group Peta has demanded, claiming that devouring sausages and schnitzel is a symptom of “toxic masculinity” which is killing the planet.

    Peta’s German operation cited research from the scientific journal PLOS One which showed that men caused 41 per cent more greenhouse gas emissions than women largely because they consumed more meat.

    Peta demanded a “sex ban for all meat-eating men” and called on women to “go on sex strike to save the world”.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ban-meat-eating-men-from-sex-animal-rights-group-urges-d9rk3850z

    If we're not supposed to eat animals why are they made out of meat?

    Can PETA also ask crocodiles, sharks, lions and tigers to stop eating us?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,112

    I'm no expert on American law but wonder if people should be laying Trump now?

    Been doing that for a while.

    He’s a proud scofflaw, but it’s been increasingly evident that there might finally be sufficient evidence of numerous illegalities for the law to have its way with him.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Does anyone know what’s actually going on in Leicester?
    Started off with bantz following the India/Pakistan cricket match, then escalated, depending on who you ask, started with the Muslims or the Hindus.

    Fake social media news has amplified it, it is mostly young people involved whilst the the elder generation are despairing.
    Ah okay, that match was around the corner from me a couple of weeks ago.

    Can’t the elder generation use their influence to calm things down a little, or does it not work like that any more?
  • WillGWillG Posts: 954

    WillG said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Congratulations to everyone on the British Left from 1960-2020. Good work
    *rubbing the right's nose in diversity* - I think they'll be very pleased with the outcome.
    Out of curiousity, I've just googled this individual - he now works as a communications officer for TfL dealing with air quality.
    I sometimes wonder whether we need to do what the US does with quotas for different nationalities for some visas, to ensure integration happens. The theory is that if people all come from different backgrounds they are more likely to intermix into the host culture.

    A really smart way to do it would be to base it on levels of integration, from statistics on concentration of where people live or levels of mixed marriage. If you are from a group like Thais or Poles that have become part of the melting pot, we can sustain more immigration. If you are from a group that forms its own enclaves and only marries their own, we might need a cooling off period before more come.
    One thing that 1st generation immigrants in my own family have commented on, is that they have felt the "Keep your own culture" thing as coming across as "Brits only can be Brits".

    They came here to become British. Not to be an ethnic enclave.
    Yes, this is the sensible middle way. What unites us is more important than what divides us. We have to reject the hard right view that different ethnic groups should live separate lives in separate countries and the hard left view that different ethnic groups should live separate lives in separate communities.

    Integration, integration, integration. You could win a general election on that sort of message, if done tactfully.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,061
    ohnotnow said:

    Chris said:

    Henry Foy
    @HenryJFoy
    ·
    47m
    "This is probably the most delicate phase of this decades-long game of chicken," said a senior European diplomat. "Putin is actively trying to sow discord."

    "But if Putin blinks he is gone and with him the dream of a resurgent imperial Russia."

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1572596705899745281

    Is it a coincidence that this is accompanied by a photo of a large penis on wheels?
    Your comment has made me fondly remember "Whoops Apocalypse". I may have to find and rewatch. It could have aged very badly.
    Oh, it has. Don't make the same mistake I made. Keep it as a fond memory.
    It was made back in the good old days, when Russian leaders dropped dead about once every six months.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,060
    edited September 2022

    Question is, what does Putin want really? Does he want Crimea, Zap, Kherson, Luhansk and Donbass and then stop? Does he want that plus regime change? Does he want the Baltics, Moldova, Armenia?

    In the first week of this war I completely expected to wake up to Kiev fallen, Zelenskyy and his cabinet assassinated in a bunker and Putin on his way to securing Ukraine border and regime change - and I absolutely believe Putin and his cronies expected this too!

    Now he’s ended up with much smaller land grab, no regime change, much smaller front to defend and opponents to attack it whilst he battening down for a long one, it’s very different than than the start in many ways.

    How will a war that goes on for years impact the speed Ukraine will get into EU and NATO?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,515
    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    @Telegraph
    5m
    "The next James Bond films will have bigger roles for women and a more sensitive 007, according to the producers, who said “Bond is evolving just as men are evolving”

    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1572611839485251587?s=20&t=DBkpcYPhQqr3TJDm9GeP9Q

    ... and audiences down 80% I imagine. If people wanted sensitive, woke characters, they'd probably watch romcoms. Bond is supposed to be a licensed thug and killer.
    It also means that a non-Woke Bond will simply replace the actual Bond, finishing off Bond. So stupid

    People want unbridled masculinity, violence, with lots of bedded hot women. That's the point

    Interestingly, younger friends of mine are reporting this from the field. In publishing, Hollywood, the arts, amongst really young people - especially men - there is suddenly a hunger for non-Woke ultra-macho movies, books, memoirs, magazines, video games. and so on

    There is a killing to be made if you've got the cullions

    The latest Predator movie could be viewed as filling this need. Was something of a breakout hit IIRC.
    The movement in publishing is seismic. Young men are hoovering up heroic macho stuff, fiction and non fiction, and the less Woke the better - this is what I am told

    You could argue the success of the new Top Gun rematch (Maverick) was part of this. I watched it the other night and thought it was mediocre at best. Embarrassing at worst. But it did ONE POINT FIVE BILLION Box Office. For a not very good movie

    Because it had fights and patriotism and motorbikes and jet planes shooting bad Iranians and shit
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 28,157
    edited September 2022
    Carnyx said:

    Fracking in the UK will be impossible at any meaningful scale and will not help with the energy price crisis, the founder of the UK’s first fracking company has warned.

    Chris Cornelius, the geologist who founded Cuadrilla Resources, which drilled the UK’s first modern hydraulic fracturing wells in Lancashire, told the Guardian that he believed the government’s support for it is merely a “political gesture”.


    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/21/fracking-wont-work-uk-founder-chris-cornelius-cuadrilla?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Mm, thanks, now that is interesting (but unsurprising). Wonder if the PB frackers will believe him?

    Edit: He's co-written an op-ed.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/21/liz-truss-fracking-britain-economic-political-low-carbon-cuadrilla

    With an interesting sting in the tail:

    "In addition to the gesture at shale gas, we believe that two other readily available sources of net zero energy ought to be pursued.

    One is the vast amount of warm, non-potable brine underneath large parts of the country – an energy source we have been evaluating for potential future ventures. [...]

    And then there is Britain’s tidal range, second highest in the world."
    A former colleague of mine is working for CeraPhi Energy who are looking at repurposing existing oil and gas wells, once they are depleted, as geothermal wells. Basically, you pull the Oil and Gas completion string and rerun a geothermal completion. It is an extremely costs effective way of making use of all those thousands of oil and gas wells that have reached the end of their lives rather than just pumping them full of cement which is what currently happens.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,783
    HYUFD said:

    Men who eat meat should be banned from having sex, the animal rights group Peta has demanded, claiming that devouring sausages and schnitzel is a symptom of “toxic masculinity” which is killing the planet.

    Peta’s German operation cited research from the scientific journal PLOS One which showed that men caused 41 per cent more greenhouse gas emissions than women largely because they consumed more meat.

    Peta demanded a “sex ban for all meat-eating men” and called on women to “go on sex strike to save the world”.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ban-meat-eating-men-from-sex-animal-rights-group-urges-d9rk3850z

    If we're not supposed to eat animals why are they made out of meat?

    Can PETA also ask crocodiles, sharks, lions and tigers to stop eating us?
    I think that on average (if you don't live in Sudan, Cornwall, or the Northern Territory) the stats rather point to the reverse.
  • Among other allegations, the suit claims that the former president's Florida estate and golf resort, Mar-a-Lago, was valued as high as $739 million, but should have been valued at around one-tenth that amount, at $75 million. The suit says that higher valuation was "based on the false premise that it was unrestricted property and could be developed for residential use even though Mr. Trump himself signed deeds donating his residential development rights and sharply restricting changes to the property."

    James is referring her findings to federal prosecutors in Manhattan, who could possibly open a criminal investigation into bank fraud, according to a footnote in the lawsuit.


    https://abcnews.go.com/US/york-ag-letitia-james-files-250m-lawsuit-trump/story?id=90240332
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,957
    eek said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Mr. Sandpit, Starmer isn't that.

    But the Conservatives are facing numerous significant problems.
    1) They've been in for a long time, so time for a change becomes a powerful mantra.
    2) Cost of living is a problem for many people.
    3) The former clownish PM's antics lost the party a lot of support which has not returned.

    Against that, they do have incumbency and the boundary changes should help, but I'd not be surprised if we see a lot of changes next time.

    This is about where I am. Labour winning outright from so far back should be very hard, but 2019 was unusual and there are a lot of time and stored up problems for the Tories. I think itll be close - if the Truss gambles pay off its a 1992 result.
    Most likely the result will be 2010 in reverse, a hung parliament but Starmer like Cameron wins most seats
    Looking at the economic numbers, I have no idea why any tory still thinks Sunak would have been a better option than Truss, as you manifestly do.

    With Truss we might get some growth with a ballooning deficit. With Sunak we would get a depression with a ballooning deficit, followed by huge public spending cuts or going to the IMF. As shown by recent borrowing numbers.

    Well said, the idea you can tax your way to growth has never been true and never will be true. Brownism failed under Brown, and its failed under Sunak too.

    The simple reality is that the Government taxes us every which way it can, so any money taken out of circulation due to higher taxes must immediately lower tax receipts in other taxes, because its no longer being spent and taxed in other ways.

    But those advocating tax rises never factor this in at all. Which is why tax rises never raise as much as their adherents expect, and why tax cuts don't cost as much as their critics claim either, as any extra money circulating in the economy due to tax cuts then gets itself taxed as it circulates minimising the cost of the tax cut.
    I’m trying to work out some funny way to pun Truss and Kansas. Kantruss? Hmmm… not funny enough… The point being that this fantasy that you can cut taxes and everything will work out has been tried, and it doesn’t work. The classic, and very tragic, example of this is known as the Kansas Experiment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_experiment
    The Kansas experiment was deeply, deeply flawed and not remotely comparable to the UK whatsoever. The UK is reversing tax rates back to what they were a few months ago, from a record high base in the past 74 years.

    As opposed to Kansas where tax loopholes were introduced allowed many people to cut their tax rate to literally zero. Zero percent tax rate is not something I'm advocating or anyone sane is. Oh and the Kansas bill also increased many other people's tax rates, it didn't reduce it, so increasing their tax rates would of course harm the economy while eliminating tax from others does nothing to raise revenues.
    While I’m here, here’s a nice FT article: https://www.ft.com/content/a9be9db6-a91e-48e4-8d69-4bbfff7e0f5f

    You say the UK is reversing tax rates back to what they were a few months ago. Are the stamp duty changes taking us back to where we were a few months ago? Indeed, I think there had already been 7 cuts in stamp duty since 2008.

    The idea that the Kansas Experiment failed because it increased people’s taxes is a novel one.
    Not that novel, its actually explicitly mentioned in your own link.

    Direct benefits for the affluent
    The act received criticism for shifting the tax burden from wealthy Kansans to low- and moderate-income workers.[81][40]

    According to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, the bill cut the taxes of "the wealthiest 1% of Kansans by 2.2%," while it projected that the poorest 20% of Kansans would see "their taxes increase by 1.3%".[82]

    Bryan Lowry of The Wichita Eagle estimated that almost 70% of Kansas lawmakers, as well as Governor Brownback and his wife, benefited personally from the tax cuts through business or property that they owned, which being non-wage income, was exempt from taxes under the 2012 law.[83]


    I 100% wholeheartedly recognise that raising taxes on working income and eliminating taxes on non-earned incomes is a terrible, terrible idea. What tax is it in the UK that is most similar to the Kansas experiment, whereby those working see their taxes go up, while those not working see their taxes go down? Oh yes, its National Insurance, isn't it.

    Sunak's plans of slashing Income Tax by 4p while raising National Insurance to pay for it is what was more like the Kansas Experiment, not Truss reversing tax rises on earnt incomes.
    Sunak was seeking to balance the budget. Truss, like Kansas, is relying on future growth to pay for hers. That’s where the similarity is.

    There are times when it’s appropriate to cut taxes, and times when it’s appropriate to borrow money. What’s particularly dangerous, however, is pretending that you can cut taxes because you’re sure future growth will be along any day now to fill the Treasury’s coffers.
    Saying you're balancing the budget and actually doing so are two completely different things. How does cutting Income Tax by 4p while increasing National Insurance, thus completely distorting taxation away from unearned incomes and towards earned ones, do anything whatsoever to balance the budget.

    Yes there are times when its appropriate to borrow money. During a supply shock recession is one of them, which is right now.
    I agree that saying you’re balancing the budget and actually doing so are two different things. The Truss government isn’t even saying they’re balancing the budget!

    Do you think it is sensible to rely on future growth projections?
    Let's look at what we know, and what we know is that Sunakism is failing. That isn't conjecture any more, it is fact. Look at the PSBR numbers now, before higher interest rates and higher corporation taxes hit home. The UK under Sunak was manifestly heading for a depression. A depression that would have blown his 'balanced budget' fantasy even more off course than it is now.

    Where would he have gone after the financial meltdown he was creating became undeniable? massive public spending cuts would have been his only option.
    Then let’s get rid of every MP who supported Sunakism… or at least the Cabinet members who did.
    That seems to have been done. 👍

    The people in Number's 10 and 11 when Sunak started putting up the tax rises are now backbenchers and the Tories just had a bitter campaign fought on whether to continue with Sunakism or reverse his tax rises and go back to the rates before. As far as I can tell, practically everyone who endorsed Sunakism is now out of the Cabinet and quite right too.

    Good riddance.
    Was Liz Truss not in the same Cabinet as Sunak? Was Jacob Rees-Mogg not? Suella Braverman? Ben Wallace? Alok Sharma?
    Truss was reported at the time to have opposed the decision but had to follow collective responsibility.

    The leadership campaign gave the opportunity to choose between the two models, and Truss unabashedly stood for reversing those tax rises. Good for her, and good for everyone who endorsed her, and good riddance to everyone who endorsed Sunak instead.
    Had to follow collective responsibility? You mean chose to follow collective responsibility.

    I believe every member of the current Cabinet voted for Sunak’s last budget.
    Every member of a party, even backbenchers, have to vote to follow their own government's budget, that's not new.

    But the leadership campaign gave people a free and unwhipped choice and they made their choices then.
    Again you confuse “has” with “chooses”.
    Chooses to keep the whip? Yes, they could cross the floor if they wanted to vote against the budget, but that's a bit extreme. The leadership campaign gave people a chance to choose between those two visions.
    It did… and Tory MPs made clear their preference when voting for… oh, well for Sunak’s vision actually.

    Tory MPs keep getting things wrong. You and MISTY are saying they sometimes get things wrong; I’m saying they nearly always get it wrong. I don’t think we’re too far apart here! My solution is that, at the next available democratic opportunity, we get rid of them.

    Tory MPs didn't vote for Sunak's vision, about a third did but they lost the election and aren't in the Cabinet. 👍

    If alternative candidates come with a better, lower tax vision then I of course could be tempted to vote for them.
    If you want lower taxes you should be cutting Government spending.

    Where would you like to begin cutting it - as the big items can't be touched.

    There need to be a zero-based spending review, it’s long overdue.
    Spending in most government departments has been in real terms decline for some time: the problem is that pensions and healthcare are basically locked in to rise dramatically in the next decade.
    And if you suggest potentially handling the pensions and healthcare issue differently, as I did earlier, then people will accuse you of wanting to kill old people.
    Fwiw, I completely agree with your proposal to remove the triple lock. The problem is that even then, pensions will rise as a percentage of GDP as earnings and GDP growth are likely to be basically identical, while the number of retirees rises.

    We need to take a longer term approach of essentially copying the Australian system of compulsory pension savings, so as to avoid the government being on the hook for so many people's retirement.
    But that will require people to put more money into their pensions because we need the current tax revenue to pay for the current pensioners...
    Yes.

    And that will be painful.

    But we have created a problem and we need to solve it. Deferring it merely makes it worse.
  • Truss leads Starmer by 7% in the Red Wall.

    At this moment, which of the following do Red Wall voters think would be the better PM for the UK? (19-20 September)

    Liz Truss 40% (+8)
    Keir Starmer 33% (-6)
    Don't Know 27% (-2)

    Changes +/- 4 September

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-red-wall-voting-intention-18-19-september-2022

    Even Gordon Brown and the pound shop Gordon Brown led in the polls when they became.

    This is quite striking.

    Our latest Red Wall poll finds Labour leading the Conservatives by 15%, two points less than in our previous poll two weeks ago. Altogether, the results of our poll (with changes from 4 September) are as follows:

    Labour 49% (+1)
    Conservative 34% (+3)
    Reform UK 7% (–)
    Liberal Democrat 5% (-2)
    Green 4% (-1)
    Other 1% (–)
    Plaid Cymru 0% (-1)
    Reform UK above the Lib Dems looks quite significant.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,820
    So, we haven't been nuked then? Suppose I have to do that bloody case tomorrow after all. Bah.
  • WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Congratulations to everyone on the British Left from 1960-2020. Good work
    *rubbing the right's nose in diversity* - I think they'll be very pleased with the outcome.
    Out of curiousity, I've just googled this individual - he now works as a communications officer for TfL dealing with air quality.
    I sometimes wonder whether we need to do what the US does with quotas for different nationalities for some visas, to ensure integration happens. The theory is that if people all come from different backgrounds they are more likely to intermix into the host culture.

    A really smart way to do it would be to base it on levels of integration, from statistics on concentration of where people live or levels of mixed marriage. If you are from a group like Thais or Poles that have become part of the melting pot, we can sustain more immigration. If you are from a group that forms its own enclaves and only marries their own, we might need a cooling off period before more come.
    One thing that 1st generation immigrants in my own family have commented on, is that they have felt the "Keep your own culture" thing as coming across as "Brits only can be Brits".

    They came here to become British. Not to be an ethnic enclave.
    Yes, this is the sensible middle way. What unites us is more important than what divides us. We have to reject the hard right view that different ethnic groups should live separate lives in separate countries and the hard left view that different ethnic groups should live separate lives in separate communities.

    Integration, integration, integration. You could win a general election on that sort of message, if done tactfully.
    The Norwegians have an excellent record on integration. They have strict rules on immigrants learning the language and taking exams in culture and history of Norway. When I worked there, settlement rights (not even citizenship) required 200 hours of compulsory classes. They work very, very hard to prevent enclaves forming and are extremely successful at it.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 7,459
    edited September 2022
    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Congratulations to everyone on the British Left from 1960-2020. Good work
    Yes, I think we've contributing to making Britain a more successful multiracial country than nearly any other in Europe. Good for us, we've done well.
    If the most successful examples entail sectarian riots, I am not sure that is the killer example argument you think it is.

    However, I am not going to fall for the suggestion that this is just part of being a multiracial society. In reality there are lots of immigrants who integrate and have civilized standards of conduct. We should only be keeping out the ones with hardline religious/cultural views that condone violence or try to institute honour culture.
    Have a look at France, Sweden, Spain and Italy for a comparison. Britain has done remarkably well. Germany is really the only country that is catching us up, with the Netherlands not doing too badly recently either.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,605
    edited September 2022
    Three years ago, Somerset were docked 24 points (12 suspended) for preparing a pitch deemed unfit for a match against Essex. That match lasted 148 overs, saw 21 wickets fall and was a draw due to rain.

    Essex have now prepared a pitch that lasted just 205 overs, saw 40 wickets fall, and led to a result that simply looks daft.

    Will they be penalised? Of course not.

    Because the ECB care about their client groups, not about fairness or good cricket. And Essex as a London based club are their mates.

    Remember this when Strauss finally publishes his review, which will ask a load of stupid questions and give even stupider answers to justify a predetermined conclusion.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,060
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Does anyone know what’s actually going on in Leicester?
    Richard 111 will be turning in his grave
    Why? Sectarian violence was the sort of thing he revelled in.
    Sectarian? Did they sing the Billy Boys or something? Or is it to do with the Lollards?
    Northerners vs Southerners, in his case.
    Ah, thanks. Being a Yorkshireman is a religion? Coo.
    'Sectarian' doesn't have to mean 'religious.'

    Although, TBF, @MoonRabbit seems to have nearly elevated it to this...
    Too true. Yorkshire is just… better.

    And we know it 👍🏻
  • WillGWillG Posts: 954

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Congratulations to everyone on the British Left from 1960-2020. Good work
    Yes, I think we've contributing to making Britain a more successful multiracial country than nearly any other in Europe. Good for us, we've done well.
    If the most successful examples entail sectarian riots, I am not sure that is the killer example argument you think it is.

    However, I am not going to fall for the suggestion that this is just part of being a multiracial society. In reality there are lots of immigrants who integrate and have civilized standards of conduct. We should only be keeping out the ones with hardline religious/cultural views that condone violence or try to institute honour culture.
    Have a look at France, Sweden, Spain and Italy for a comparison. Britain has done remarkably well. Germany is really the only country that is catching is up, with the Netherlands not doing too badly more recently, either.
    The conclusion from this line of argument would be "all have made a collective mistake".
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,820

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Congratulations to everyone on the British Left from 1960-2020. Good work
    *rubbing the right's nose in diversity* - I think they'll be very pleased with the outcome.
    Out of curiousity, I've just googled this individual - he now works as a communications officer for TfL dealing with air quality.
    I sometimes wonder whether we need to do what the US does with quotas for different nationalities for some visas, to ensure integration happens. The theory is that if people all come from different backgrounds they are more likely to intermix into the host culture.

    A really smart way to do it would be to base it on levels of integration, from statistics on concentration of where people live or levels of mixed marriage. If you are from a group like Thais or Poles that have become part of the melting pot, we can sustain more immigration. If you are from a group that forms its own enclaves and only marries their own, we might need a cooling off period before more come.
    One thing that 1st generation immigrants in my own family have commented on, is that they have felt the "Keep your own culture" thing as coming across as "Brits only can be Brits".

    They came here to become British. Not to be an ethnic enclave.
    Yes, this is the sensible middle way. What unites us is more important than what divides us. We have to reject the hard right view that different ethnic groups should live separate lives in separate countries and the hard left view that different ethnic groups should live separate lives in separate communities.

    Integration, integration, integration. You could win a general election on that sort of message, if done tactfully.
    The Norwegians have an excellent record on integration. They have strict rules on immigrants learning the language and taking exams in culture and history of Norway. When I worked there, settlement rights (not even citizenship) required 200 hours of compulsory classes. They work very, very hard to prevent enclaves forming and are extremely successful at it.
    If we had done that this would be a much better country.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,783
    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Congratulations to everyone on the British Left from 1960-2020. Good work
    *rubbing the right's nose in diversity* - I think they'll be very pleased with the outcome.
    Out of curiousity, I've just googled this individual - he now works as a communications officer for TfL dealing with air quality.
    I sometimes wonder whether we need to do what the US does with quotas for different nationalities for some visas, to ensure integration happens. The theory is that if people all come from different backgrounds they are more likely to intermix into the host culture.

    A really smart way to do it would be to base it on levels of integration, from statistics on concentration of where people live or levels of mixed marriage. If you are from a group like Thais or Poles that have become part of the melting pot, we can sustain more immigration. If you are from a group that forms its own enclaves and only marries their own, we might need a cooling off period before more come.
    One thing that 1st generation immigrants in my own family have commented on, is that they have felt the "Keep your own culture" thing as coming across as "Brits only can be Brits".

    They came here to become British. Not to be an ethnic enclave.
    Yes, this is the sensible middle way. What unites us is more important than what divides us. We have to reject the hard right view that different ethnic groups should live separate lives in separate countries and the hard left view that different ethnic groups should live separate lives in separate communities.

    Integration, integration, integration. You could win a general election on that sort of message, if done tactfully.
    The interesting thing about that is that is pretty much what has happened to RCs and Irish in Scotland - though there remains sectarian tension on the edges, it doesn't so much dictate e.g. what jobs they get. However, this does depend on whom you talk to - and when, obvs. Something of a change of tune, so to speak, from this chap for instance:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/415149.stm
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17548457.twenty-years-scotlands-shame-sir-james-macmillan-speech-60th-birthday-new-fifth-symphony/
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 7,459
    edited September 2022
    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Congratulations to everyone on the British Left from 1960-2020. Good work
    Yes, I think we've contributing to making Britain a more successful multiracial country than nearly any other in Europe. Good for us, we've done well.
    If the most successful examples entail sectarian riots, I am not sure that is the killer example argument you think it is.

    However, I am not going to fall for the suggestion that this is just part of being a multiracial society. In reality there are lots of immigrants who integrate and have civilized standards of conduct. We should only be keeping out the ones with hardline religious/cultural views that condone violence or try to institute honour culture.
    Have a look at France, Sweden, Spain and Italy for a comparison. Britain has done remarkably well. Germany is really the only country that is catching is up, with the Netherlands not doing too badly more recently, either.
    The conclusion from this line of argument would be "all have made a collective mistake".
    Have they ? Germany for instance has rocket-boosted its economic growth and is successfully integrating a huge number of people better than France, or more recently the US, arguably.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 954

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Congratulations to everyone on the British Left from 1960-2020. Good work
    *rubbing the right's nose in diversity* - I think they'll be very pleased with the outcome.
    Out of curiousity, I've just googled this individual - he now works as a communications officer for TfL dealing with air quality.
    I sometimes wonder whether we need to do what the US does with quotas for different nationalities for some visas, to ensure integration happens. The theory is that if people all come from different backgrounds they are more likely to intermix into the host culture.

    A really smart way to do it would be to base it on levels of integration, from statistics on concentration of where people live or levels of mixed marriage. If you are from a group like Thais or Poles that have become part of the melting pot, we can sustain more immigration. If you are from a group that forms its own enclaves and only marries their own, we might need a cooling off period before more come.
    One thing that 1st generation immigrants in my own family have commented on, is that they have felt the "Keep your own culture" thing as coming across as "Brits only can be Brits".

    They came here to become British. Not to be an ethnic enclave.
    Yes, this is the sensible middle way. What unites us is more important than what divides us. We have to reject the hard right view that different ethnic groups should live separate lives in separate countries and the hard left view that different ethnic groups should live separate lives in separate communities.

    Integration, integration, integration. You could win a general election on that sort of message, if done tactfully.
    The Norwegians have an excellent record on integration. They have strict rules on immigrants learning the language and taking exams in culture and history of Norway. When I worked there, settlement rights (not even citizenship) required 200 hours of compulsory classes. They work very, very hard to prevent enclaves forming and are extremely successful at it.
    Canada had not done perfectly but they also do very well. Up until Trudeau, almost all of their immigration was of graduates or other skilled trades. And the provinces have lots of power to determine immigration levels, so they are responsive to integration or lack thereof on the ground.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,783

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Does anyone know what’s actually going on in Leicester?
    Richard 111 will be turning in his grave
    Why? Sectarian violence was the sort of thing he revelled in.
    Sectarian? Did they sing the Billy Boys or something? Or is it to do with the Lollards?
    Northerners vs Southerners, in his case.
    Ah, thanks. Being a Yorkshireman is a religion? Coo.
    'Sectarian' doesn't have to mean 'religious.'

    Although, TBF, @MoonRabbit seems to have nearly elevated it to this...
    Too true. Yorkshire is just… better.

    And we know it 👍🏻
    Quite right. I went to uni with a Yorkshireman. Though apparently their idea of being romantic is to say how beautiful the colour of the lady's Millstone Grit eyes.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,783

    Carnyx said:

    Fracking in the UK will be impossible at any meaningful scale and will not help with the energy price crisis, the founder of the UK’s first fracking company has warned.

    Chris Cornelius, the geologist who founded Cuadrilla Resources, which drilled the UK’s first modern hydraulic fracturing wells in Lancashire, told the Guardian that he believed the government’s support for it is merely a “political gesture”.


    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/21/fracking-wont-work-uk-founder-chris-cornelius-cuadrilla?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Mm, thanks, now that is interesting (but unsurprising). Wonder if the PB frackers will believe him?

    Edit: He's co-written an op-ed.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/21/liz-truss-fracking-britain-economic-political-low-carbon-cuadrilla

    With an interesting sting in the tail:

    "In addition to the gesture at shale gas, we believe that two other readily available sources of net zero energy ought to be pursued.

    One is the vast amount of warm, non-potable brine underneath large parts of the country – an energy source we have been evaluating for potential future ventures. [...]

    And then there is Britain’s tidal range, second highest in the world."
    A former colleague of mine is working for CeraPhi Energy who are looking at repurposing existing oil and gas wells, once they are depleted, as geothermal wells. Basically, you pull the Oil and Gas completion string and rerun a geothermal completion. It is an extremely costs effective way of making use of all those thousands of oil and gas wells that have reached the end of their lives rather than just pumping them full of cement which is what currently happens.
    Thanks, that's interesting.
  • Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Breaking: New York Attorney General Letitia James has filed a civil fraud lawsuit against former President Donald Trump and others, according to court records.

    https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/1572608786061213702

    A civil lawsuit? So they don't think they can prove any crimes were committed?
    No. It's more a matter of what can be proven.

    And filing state civil suite now, does NOT preclude state (or federal) criminal charges in future.
    The second sentence implies "yes", doesn't it?

    As for the third, how can there possibly be a fair criminal trial after a civil lawsuit?
    Since I only posted TWO sentences, am even more confused than per usual!

    State and federal criminal charges versus Trump are a definite possibility.

    As for YOUR final sentence above, reckon you are wrong about that. But then maybe you'd prefer to take the opinion of one of the great legal minds "advising" the Sage of Mar-a-Lardo?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,605

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Does anyone know what’s actually going on in Leicester?
    Richard 111 will be turning in his grave
    Why? Sectarian violence was the sort of thing he revelled in.
    Sectarian? Did they sing the Billy Boys or something? Or is it to do with the Lollards?
    Northerners vs Southerners, in his case.
    Ah, thanks. Being a Yorkshireman is a religion? Coo.
    'Sectarian' doesn't have to mean 'religious.'

    Although, TBF, @MoonRabbit seems to have nearly elevated it to this...
    Too true. Yorkshire is just… better.

    And we know it 👍🏻
    You might want to remind Surrey of this, of course...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 19,013

    Truss leads Starmer by 7% in the Red Wall.

    At this moment, which of the following do Red Wall voters think would be the better PM for the UK? (19-20 September)

    Liz Truss 40% (+8)
    Keir Starmer 33% (-6)
    Don't Know 27% (-2)

    Changes +/- 4 September

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-red-wall-voting-intention-18-19-september-2022

    It does look like she is smashing this out of the park. Thoughts and prayers for would-be successor, Boris Johnson.
  • Nigelb said:

    I'm no expert on American law but wonder if people should be laying Trump now?

    Been doing that for a while.

    He’s a proud scofflaw, but it’s been increasingly evident that there might finally be sufficient evidence of numerous illegalities for the law to have its way with him.
    One very small straw in the wind is that my sole Trumpite friend, an ex-pat from Enfield now living in Florida, now refers to him as 'an idiot'. He thinks he shouldn't run but is 'idiotic enough to do it.' This from a guy who said the day Trump won the White House was the happiest of his life.

    He hates Biden of course but nevertheless if Trump is losing the likes of him, he's finished.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,605

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Breaking: New York Attorney General Letitia James has filed a civil fraud lawsuit against former President Donald Trump and others, according to court records.

    https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/1572608786061213702

    A civil lawsuit? So they don't think they can prove any crimes were committed?
    No. It's more a matter of what can be proven.

    And filing state civil suite now, does NOT preclude state (or federal) criminal charges in future.
    The second sentence implies "yes", doesn't it?

    As for the third, how can there possibly be a fair criminal trial after a civil lawsuit?
    Since I only posted TWO sentences, am even more confused than per usual!

    State and federal criminal charges versus Trump are a definite possibility.

    As for YOUR final sentence above, reckon you are wrong about that. But then maybe you'd prefer to take the opinion of one of the great legal minds "advising" the Sage of Mar-a-Lardo?
    Your first sentence was one word.

    Hopefully the same number of words in the sentence when Trump hears judgement...
  • WillGWillG Posts: 954

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Congratulations to everyone on the British Left from 1960-2020. Good work
    Yes, I think we've contributing to making Britain a more successful multiracial country than nearly any other in Europe. Good for us, we've done well.
    If the most successful examples entail sectarian riots, I am not sure that is the killer example argument you think it is.

    However, I am not going to fall for the suggestion that this is just part of being a multiracial society. In reality there are lots of immigrants who integrate and have civilized standards of conduct. We should only be keeping out the ones with hardline religious/cultural views that condone violence or try to institute honour culture.
    Have a look at France, Sweden, Spain and Italy for a comparison. Britain has done remarkably well. Germany is really the only country that is catching is up, with the Netherlands not doing too badly more recently, either.
    The conclusion from this line of argument would be "all have made a collective mistake".
    Have they ? Germany for instance rocket-boosted its economic growth and is integrating a huge number of people better than France, or more recently the US, arguably.
    GDP is simply population x income per capita. If you let a massive number in you can boost the former even if the latter goes down, for overall "economic growth". It doesn't mean that is positive for anyone currently there.

    And your second statement is just another relative example.
  • WillG said:

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Congratulations to everyone on the British Left from 1960-2020. Good work
    *rubbing the right's nose in diversity* - I think they'll be very pleased with the outcome.
    Out of curiousity, I've just googled this individual - he now works as a communications officer for TfL dealing with air quality.
    I sometimes wonder whether we need to do what the US does with quotas for different nationalities for some visas, to ensure integration happens. The theory is that if people all come from different backgrounds they are more likely to intermix into the host culture.

    A really smart way to do it would be to base it on levels of integration, from statistics on concentration of where people live or levels of mixed marriage. If you are from a group like Thais or Poles that have become part of the melting pot, we can sustain more immigration. If you are from a group that forms its own enclaves and only marries their own, we might need a cooling off period before more come.
    One thing that 1st generation immigrants in my own family have commented on, is that they have felt the "Keep your own culture" thing as coming across as "Brits only can be Brits".

    They came here to become British. Not to be an ethnic enclave.
    Yes, this is the sensible middle way. What unites us is more important than what divides us. We have to reject the hard right view that different ethnic groups should live separate lives in separate countries and the hard left view that different ethnic groups should live separate lives in separate communities.

    Integration, integration, integration. You could win a general election on that sort of message, if done tactfully.
    The Norwegians have an excellent record on integration. They have strict rules on immigrants learning the language and taking exams in culture and history of Norway. When I worked there, settlement rights (not even citizenship) required 200 hours of compulsory classes. They work very, very hard to prevent enclaves forming and are extremely successful at it.
    Canada had not done perfectly but they also do very well. Up until Trudeau, almost all of their immigration was of graduates or other skilled trades. And the provinces have lots of power to determine immigration levels, so they are responsive to integration or lack thereof on the ground.
    Canada created the multiculturalism-integraton model. That's what really works, not the straw man of ghettoised communities, which were never intended in Britain either, but where the model was probably more loosedly applied.
  • WillG said:

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Congratulations to everyone on the British Left from 1960-2020. Good work
    *rubbing the right's nose in diversity* - I think they'll be very pleased with the outcome.
    Out of curiousity, I've just googled this individual - he now works as a communications officer for TfL dealing with air quality.
    I sometimes wonder whether we need to do what the US does with quotas for different nationalities for some visas, to ensure integration happens. The theory is that if people all come from different backgrounds they are more likely to intermix into the host culture.

    A really smart way to do it would be to base it on levels of integration, from statistics on concentration of where people live or levels of mixed marriage. If you are from a group like Thais or Poles that have become part of the melting pot, we can sustain more immigration. If you are from a group that forms its own enclaves and only marries their own, we might need a cooling off period before more come.
    One thing that 1st generation immigrants in my own family have commented on, is that they have felt the "Keep your own culture" thing as coming across as "Brits only can be Brits".

    They came here to become British. Not to be an ethnic enclave.
    Yes, this is the sensible middle way. What unites us is more important than what divides us. We have to reject the hard right view that different ethnic groups should live separate lives in separate countries and the hard left view that different ethnic groups should live separate lives in separate communities.

    Integration, integration, integration. You could win a general election on that sort of message, if done tactfully.
    The Norwegians have an excellent record on integration. They have strict rules on immigrants learning the language and taking exams in culture and history of Norway. When I worked there, settlement rights (not even citizenship) required 200 hours of compulsory classes. They work very, very hard to prevent enclaves forming and are extremely successful at it.
    Canada had not done perfectly but they also do very well. Up until Trudeau, almost all of their immigration was of graduates or other skilled trades. And the provinces have lots of power to determine immigration levels, so they are responsive to integration or lack thereof on the ground.
    "Up until Trudeau, almost all of their immigration was of graduates or other skilled trades."

    NOT true, methinks, whether you mean Pierre OR Justin.

    Esp. IF you mean the ENTIRE history of immigration to Canada since Confederation?

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,112

    Nigelb said:

    I'm no expert on American law but wonder if people should be laying Trump now?

    Been doing that for a while.

    He’s a proud scofflaw, but it’s been increasingly evident that there might finally be sufficient evidence of numerous illegalities for the law to have its way with him.
    One very small straw in the wind is that my sole Trumpite friend, an ex-pat from Enfield now living in Florida, now refers to him as 'an idiot'. He thinks he shouldn't run but is 'idiotic enough to do it.' This from a guy who said the day Trump won the White House was the happiest of his life.

    He hates Biden of course but nevertheless if Trump is losing the likes of him, he's finished.
    What does he make of Trump-lite DeSantis ?
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 1,524
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Fracking in the UK will be impossible at any meaningful scale and will not help with the energy price crisis, the founder of the UK’s first fracking company has warned.

    Chris Cornelius, the geologist who founded Cuadrilla Resources, which drilled the UK’s first modern hydraulic fracturing wells in Lancashire, told the Guardian that he believed the government’s support for it is merely a “political gesture”.


    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/21/fracking-wont-work-uk-founder-chris-cornelius-cuadrilla?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Mm, thanks, now that is interesting (but unsurprising). Wonder if the PB frackers will believe him?

    Edit: He's co-written an op-ed.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/21/liz-truss-fracking-britain-economic-political-low-carbon-cuadrilla

    With an interesting sting in the tail:

    "In addition to the gesture at shale gas, we believe that two other readily available sources of net zero energy ought to be pursued.

    One is the vast amount of warm, non-potable brine underneath large parts of the country – an energy source we have been evaluating for potential future ventures. [...]

    And then there is Britain’s tidal range, second highest in the world."
    A former colleague of mine is working for CeraPhi Energy who are looking at repurposing existing oil and gas wells, once they are depleted, as geothermal wells. Basically, you pull the Oil and Gas completion string and rerun a geothermal completion. It is an extremely costs effective way of making use of all those thousands of oil and gas wells that have reached the end of their lives rather than just pumping them full of cement which is what currently happens.
    Thanks, that's interesting.
    Would be fantastic news for Aberdeen
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,060
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Does anyone know what’s actually going on in Leicester?
    Richard 111 will be turning in his grave
    Why? Sectarian violence was the sort of thing he revelled in.
    Sectarian? Did they sing the Billy Boys or something? Or is it to do with the Lollards?
    Northerners vs Southerners, in his case.
    Ah, thanks. Being a Yorkshireman is a religion? Coo.
    'Sectarian' doesn't have to mean 'religious.'

    Although, TBF, @MoonRabbit seems to have nearly elevated it to this...
    Too true. Yorkshire is just… better.

    And we know it 👍🏻
    You might want to remind Surrey of this, of course...
    Oh have minor counties west had a one good session of the season to wake you up? 🥹
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,605
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'm no expert on American law but wonder if people should be laying Trump now?

    Been doing that for a while.

    He’s a proud scofflaw, but it’s been increasingly evident that there might finally be sufficient evidence of numerous illegalities for the law to have its way with him.
    One very small straw in the wind is that my sole Trumpite friend, an ex-pat from Enfield now living in Florida, now refers to him as 'an idiot'. He thinks he shouldn't run but is 'idiotic enough to do it.' This from a guy who said the day Trump won the White House was the happiest of his life.

    He hates Biden of course but nevertheless if Trump is losing the likes of him, he's finished.
    What does he make of Trump-lite DeSantis ?
    Perhaps he's just all Ron.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433

    Nigelb said:

    I'm no expert on American law but wonder if people should be laying Trump now?

    Been doing that for a while.

    He’s a proud scofflaw, but it’s been increasingly evident that there might finally be sufficient evidence of numerous illegalities for the law to have its way with him.
    One very small straw in the wind is that my sole Trumpite friend, an ex-pat from Enfield now living in Florida, now refers to him as 'an idiot'. He thinks he shouldn't run but is 'idiotic enough to do it.' This from a guy who said the day Trump won the White House was the happiest of his life.

    He hates Biden of course but nevertheless if Trump is losing the likes of him, he's finished.
    A Ron DeSantis fan, by any chance?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,112
    This looks interesting.

    https://twitter.com/billythalheimer/status/1572556301762449410
    I’m excited to announce that REGENT has taken flight! 🛫

    We combined the benefits from ground effect flight, distributed electric propulsion, and hydrofoiling into a single platform: the seaglider

    Which will massively improve convenience & affordability of regional travel
  • PhilPhil Posts: 1,217
    Leon said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    @Telegraph
    5m
    "The next James Bond films will have bigger roles for women and a more sensitive 007, according to the producers, who said “Bond is evolving just as men are evolving”

    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1572611839485251587?s=20&t=DBkpcYPhQqr3TJDm9GeP9Q

    ... and audiences down 80% I imagine. If people wanted sensitive, woke characters, they'd probably watch romcoms. Bond is supposed to be a licensed thug and killer.
    It also means that a non-Woke Bond will simply replace the actual Bond, finishing off Bond. So stupid

    People want unbridled masculinity, violence, with lots of bedded hot women. That's the point

    Interestingly, younger friends of mine are reporting this from the field. In publishing, Hollywood, the arts, amongst really young people - especially men - there is suddenly a hunger for non-Woke ultra-macho movies, books, memoirs, magazines, video games. and so on

    There is a killing to be made if you've got the cullions

    The latest Predator movie could be viewed as filling this need. Was something of a breakout hit IIRC.
    The movement in publishing is seismic. Young men are hoovering up heroic macho stuff, fiction and non fiction, and the less Woke the better - this is what I am told

    You could argue the success of the new Top Gun rematch (Maverick) was part of this. I watched it the other night and thought it was mediocre at best. Embarrassing at worst. But it did ONE POINT FIVE BILLION Box Office. For a not very good movie

    Because it had fights and patriotism and motorbikes and jet planes shooting bad Iranians and shit
    NB. The Predator movie (“Prey”) had a female lead. Woke as you like on that front.

    The audience loved it: Make of that what you will.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,605

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Does anyone know what’s actually going on in Leicester?
    Richard 111 will be turning in his grave
    Why? Sectarian violence was the sort of thing he revelled in.
    Sectarian? Did they sing the Billy Boys or something? Or is it to do with the Lollards?
    Northerners vs Southerners, in his case.
    Ah, thanks. Being a Yorkshireman is a religion? Coo.
    'Sectarian' doesn't have to mean 'religious.'

    Although, TBF, @MoonRabbit seems to have nearly elevated it to this...
    Too true. Yorkshire is just… better.

    And we know it 👍🏻
    You might want to remind Surrey of this, of course...
    Oh have minor counties west had a one good session of the season to wake you up? 🥹
    Hey, you're the ones who had to follow on, not us.

    And we're playing the county champions, you're playing a side we thrashed in the opening game last year.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,783
    Cicero said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Fracking in the UK will be impossible at any meaningful scale and will not help with the energy price crisis, the founder of the UK’s first fracking company has warned.

    Chris Cornelius, the geologist who founded Cuadrilla Resources, which drilled the UK’s first modern hydraulic fracturing wells in Lancashire, told the Guardian that he believed the government’s support for it is merely a “political gesture”.


    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/21/fracking-wont-work-uk-founder-chris-cornelius-cuadrilla?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Mm, thanks, now that is interesting (but unsurprising). Wonder if the PB frackers will believe him?

    Edit: He's co-written an op-ed.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/21/liz-truss-fracking-britain-economic-political-low-carbon-cuadrilla

    With an interesting sting in the tail:

    "In addition to the gesture at shale gas, we believe that two other readily available sources of net zero energy ought to be pursued.

    One is the vast amount of warm, non-potable brine underneath large parts of the country – an energy source we have been evaluating for potential future ventures. [...]

    And then there is Britain’s tidal range, second highest in the world."
    A former colleague of mine is working for CeraPhi Energy who are looking at repurposing existing oil and gas wells, once they are depleted, as geothermal wells. Basically, you pull the Oil and Gas completion string and rerun a geothermal completion. It is an extremely costs effective way of making use of all those thousands of oil and gas wells that have reached the end of their lives rather than just pumping them full of cement which is what currently happens.
    Thanks, that's interesting.
    Would be fantastic news for Aberdeen
    Notd sure if that is realistic for offshore? Sudden thought.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 3,057

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Breaking: New York Attorney General Letitia James has filed a civil fraud lawsuit against former President Donald Trump and others, according to court records.

    https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/1572608786061213702

    A civil lawsuit? So they don't think they can prove any crimes were committed?
    No. It's more a matter of what can be proven.

    And filing state civil suite now, does NOT preclude state (or federal) criminal charges in future.
    The second sentence implies "yes", doesn't it?

    As for the third, how can there possibly be a fair criminal trial after a civil lawsuit?
    Since I only posted TWO sentences, am even more confused than per usual!

    State and federal criminal charges versus Trump are a definite possibility.

    As for YOUR final sentence above, reckon you are wrong about that. But then maybe you'd prefer to take the opinion of one of the great legal minds "advising" the Sage of Mar-a-Lardo?
    I treated "No" as the first sentence...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,783
    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    @Telegraph
    5m
    "The next James Bond films will have bigger roles for women and a more sensitive 007, according to the producers, who said “Bond is evolving just as men are evolving”

    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1572611839485251587?s=20&t=DBkpcYPhQqr3TJDm9GeP9Q

    ... and audiences down 80% I imagine. If people wanted sensitive, woke characters, they'd probably watch romcoms. Bond is supposed to be a licensed thug and killer.
    It also means that a non-Woke Bond will simply replace the actual Bond, finishing off Bond. So stupid

    People want unbridled masculinity, violence, with lots of bedded hot women. That's the point

    Interestingly, younger friends of mine are reporting this from the field. In publishing, Hollywood, the arts, amongst really young people - especially men - there is suddenly a hunger for non-Woke ultra-macho movies, books, memoirs, magazines, video games. and so on

    There is a killing to be made if you've got the cullions

    The latest Predator movie could be viewed as filling this need. Was something of a breakout hit IIRC.
    The movement in publishing is seismic. Young men are hoovering up heroic macho stuff, fiction and non fiction, and the less Woke the better - this is what I am told

    You could argue the success of the new Top Gun rematch (Maverick) was part of this. I watched it the other night and thought it was mediocre at best. Embarrassing at worst. But it did ONE POINT FIVE BILLION Box Office. For a not very good movie

    Because it had fights and patriotism and motorbikes and jet planes shooting bad Iranians and shit
    NB. The Predator movie (“Prey”) had a female lead. Woke as you like on that front.

    The audience loved it: Make of that what you will.
    Alien, decades ago ... even the monster was woke. Actually, especially the monster was woke. Good mummy and all that.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Does anyone know what’s actually going on in Leicester?
    Started off with bantz following the India/Pakistan cricket match, then escalated, depending on who you ask, started with the Muslims or the Hindus.

    Fake social media news has amplified it, it is mostly young people involved whilst the the elder generation are despairing.
    Ah okay, that match was around the corner from me a couple of weeks ago.

    Can’t the elder generation use their influence to calm things down a little, or does it not work like that any more?
    The older generation do have influence, there's a theory this is a bit like the football violence we've seen post lockdown
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,515

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Leicester Muslim-Hindu clashes spread to Smethwick as masked mob descend on temple

    Video shows up to 200 masked and hooded men gathered outside a Hindu temple near Birmingham, shouting 'Allahu akbar'" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/21/leicester-muslim-hindu-clashes-spread-smethwick/

    So looks like we will be having a mini India Pakistan conflict in our biggest Midlands cities and maybe even beyond over the next few days
    Congratulations to everyone on the British Left from 1960-2020. Good work
    Yes, I think we've contributing to making Britain a more successful multiracial country than nearly any other in Europe. Good for us, we've done well.
    If the most successful examples entail sectarian riots, I am not sure that is the killer example argument you think it is.

    However, I am not going to fall for the suggestion that this is just part of being a multiracial society. In reality there are lots of immigrants who integrate and have civilized standards of conduct. We should only be keeping out the ones with hardline religious/cultural views that condone violence or try to institute honour culture.
    Have a look at France, Sweden, Spain and Italy for a comparison. Britain has done remarkably well. Germany is really the only country that is catching is up, with the Netherlands not doing too badly more recently, either.
    The conclusion from this line of argument would be "all have made a collective mistake".
    Have they ? Germany for instance rocket-boosted its economic growth and is integrating a huge number of people better than France, or more recently the US, arguably.
    I'm really not sure Germany is doing that well
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 7,459
    edited September 2022
    Where the British model works best is in figures like Charles representing religious tolerance and pluralism. A number of even more successful European countries have had problems trying to enforce a sort of quite hardline official secularism rather than accepting or encouraging more liberal forms of religion, with France being the worst example.
  • eekeek Posts: 22,060
    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Mr. Sandpit, Starmer isn't that.

    But the Conservatives are facing numerous significant problems.
    1) They've been in for a long time, so time for a change becomes a powerful mantra.
    2) Cost of living is a problem for many people.
    3) The former clownish PM's antics lost the party a lot of support which has not returned.

    Against that, they do have incumbency and the boundary changes should help, but I'd not be surprised if we see a lot of changes next time.

    This is about where I am. Labour winning outright from so far back should be very hard, but 2019 was unusual and there are a lot of time and stored up problems for the Tories. I think itll be close - if the Truss gambles pay off its a 1992 result.
    Most likely the result will be 2010 in reverse, a hung parliament but Starmer like Cameron wins most seats
    Looking at the economic numbers, I have no idea why any tory still thinks Sunak would have been a better option than Truss, as you manifestly do.

    With Truss we might get some growth with a ballooning deficit. With Sunak we would get a depression with a ballooning deficit, followed by huge public spending cuts or going to the IMF. As shown by recent borrowing numbers.

    Well said, the idea you can tax your way to growth has never been true and never will be true. Brownism failed under Brown, and its failed under Sunak too.

    The simple reality is that the Government taxes us every which way it can, so any money taken out of circulation due to higher taxes must immediately lower tax receipts in other taxes, because its no longer being spent and taxed in other ways.

    But those advocating tax rises never factor this in at all. Which is why tax rises never raise as much as their adherents expect, and why tax cuts don't cost as much as their critics claim either, as any extra money circulating in the economy due to tax cuts then gets itself taxed as it circulates minimising the cost of the tax cut.
    I’m trying to work out some funny way to pun Truss and Kansas. Kantruss? Hmmm… not funny enough… The point being that this fantasy that you can cut taxes and everything will work out has been tried, and it doesn’t work. The classic, and very tragic, example of this is known as the Kansas Experiment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_experiment
    The Kansas experiment was deeply, deeply flawed and not remotely comparable to the UK whatsoever. The UK is reversing tax rates back to what they were a few months ago, from a record high base in the past 74 years.

    As opposed to Kansas where tax loopholes were introduced allowed many people to cut their tax rate to literally zero. Zero percent tax rate is not something I'm advocating or anyone sane is. Oh and the Kansas bill also increased many other people's tax rates, it didn't reduce it, so increasing their tax rates would of course harm the economy while eliminating tax from others does nothing to raise revenues.
    While I’m here, here’s a nice FT article: https://www.ft.com/content/a9be9db6-a91e-48e4-8d69-4bbfff7e0f5f

    You say the UK is reversing tax rates back to what they were a few months ago. Are the stamp duty changes taking us back to where we were a few months ago? Indeed, I think there had already been 7 cuts in stamp duty since 2008.

    The idea that the Kansas Experiment failed because it increased people’s taxes is a novel one.
    Not that novel, its actually explicitly mentioned in your own link.

    Direct benefits for the affluent
    The act received criticism for shifting the tax burden from wealthy Kansans to low- and moderate-income workers.[81][40]

    According to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, the bill cut the taxes of "the wealthiest 1% of Kansans by 2.2%," while it projected that the poorest 20% of Kansans would see "their taxes increase by 1.3%".[82]

    Bryan Lowry of The Wichita Eagle estimated that almost 70% of Kansas lawmakers, as well as Governor Brownback and his wife, benefited personally from the tax cuts through business or property that they owned, which being non-wage income, was exempt from taxes under the 2012 law.[83]


    I 100% wholeheartedly recognise that raising taxes on working income and eliminating taxes on non-earned incomes is a terrible, terrible idea. What tax is it in the UK that is most similar to the Kansas experiment, whereby those working see their taxes go up, while those not working see their taxes go down? Oh yes, its National Insurance, isn't it.

    Sunak's plans of slashing Income Tax by 4p while raising National Insurance to pay for it is what was more like the Kansas Experiment, not Truss reversing tax rises on earnt incomes.
    Sunak was seeking to balance the budget. Truss, like Kansas, is relying on future growth to pay for hers. That’s where the similarity is.

    There are times when it’s appropriate to cut taxes, and times when it’s appropriate to borrow money. What’s particularly dangerous, however, is pretending that you can cut taxes because you’re sure future growth will be along any day now to fill the Treasury’s coffers.
    Saying you're balancing the budget and actually doing so are two completely different things. How does cutting Income Tax by 4p while increasing National Insurance, thus completely distorting taxation away from unearned incomes and towards earned ones, do anything whatsoever to balance the budget.

    Yes there are times when its appropriate to borrow money. During a supply shock recession is one of them, which is right now.
    I agree that saying you’re balancing the budget and actually doing so are two different things. The Truss government isn’t even saying they’re balancing the budget!

    Do you think it is sensible to rely on future growth projections?
    Let's look at what we know, and what we know is that Sunakism is failing. That isn't conjecture any more, it is fact. Look at the PSBR numbers now, before higher interest rates and higher corporation taxes hit home. The UK under Sunak was manifestly heading for a depression. A depression that would have blown his 'balanced budget' fantasy even more off course than it is now.

    Where would he have gone after the financial meltdown he was creating became undeniable? massive public spending cuts would have been his only option.
    Then let’s get rid of every MP who supported Sunakism… or at least the Cabinet members who did.
    That seems to have been done. 👍

    The people in Number's 10 and 11 when Sunak started putting up the tax rises are now backbenchers and the Tories just had a bitter campaign fought on whether to continue with Sunakism or reverse his tax rises and go back to the rates before. As far as I can tell, practically everyone who endorsed Sunakism is now out of the Cabinet and quite right too.

    Good riddance.
    Was Liz Truss not in the same Cabinet as Sunak? Was Jacob Rees-Mogg not? Suella Braverman? Ben Wallace? Alok Sharma?
    Truss was reported at the time to have opposed the decision but had to follow collective responsibility.

    The leadership campaign gave the opportunity to choose between the two models, and Truss unabashedly stood for reversing those tax rises. Good for her, and good for everyone who endorsed her, and good riddance to everyone who endorsed Sunak instead.
    Had to follow collective responsibility? You mean chose to follow collective responsibility.

    I believe every member of the current Cabinet voted for Sunak’s last budget.
    Every member of a party, even backbenchers, have to vote to follow their own government's budget, that's not new.

    But the leadership campaign gave people a free and unwhipped choice and they made their choices then.
    Again you confuse “has” with “chooses”.
    Chooses to keep the whip? Yes, they could cross the floor if they wanted to vote against the budget, but that's a bit extreme. The leadership campaign gave people a chance to choose between those two visions.
    It did… and Tory MPs made clear their preference when voting for… oh, well for Sunak’s vision actually.

    Tory MPs keep getting things wrong. You and MISTY are saying they sometimes get things wrong; I’m saying they nearly always get it wrong. I don’t think we’re too far apart here! My solution is that, at the next available democratic opportunity, we get rid of them.

    Tory MPs didn't vote for Sunak's vision, about a third did but they lost the election and aren't in the Cabinet. 👍

    If alternative candidates come with a better, lower tax vision then I of course could be tempted to vote for them.
    If you want lower taxes you should be cutting Government spending.

    Where would you like to begin cutting it - as the big items can't be touched.

    There need to be a zero-based spending review, it’s long overdue.
    Spending in most government departments has been in real terms decline for some time: the problem is that pensions and healthcare are basically locked in to rise dramatically in the next decade.
    And if you suggest potentially handling the pensions and healthcare issue differently, as I did earlier, then people will accuse you of wanting to kill old people.
    Fwiw, I completely agree with your proposal to remove the triple lock. The problem is that even then, pensions will rise as a percentage of GDP as earnings and GDP growth are likely to be basically identical, while the number of retirees rises.

    We need to take a longer term approach of essentially copying the Australian system of compulsory pension savings, so as to avoid the government being on the hook for so many people's retirement.
    But that will require people to put more money into their pensions because we need the current tax revenue to pay for the current pensioners...
    Yes.

    And that will be painful.

    But we have created a problem and we need to solve it. Deferring it merely makes it worse.
    This Government hasn't got to where it is today by actually making decisions...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,347
    edited September 2022

    Truss leads Starmer by 7% in the Red Wall.

    At this moment, which of the following do Red Wall voters think would be the better PM for the UK? (19-20 September)

    Liz Truss 40% (+8)
    Keir Starmer 33% (-6)
    Don't Know 27% (-2)

    Changes +/- 4 September

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-red-wall-voting-intention-18-19-september-2022

    Even Gordon Brown and the pound shop Gordon Brown led in the polls when they became.

    This is quite striking.

    Our latest Red Wall poll finds Labour leading the Conservatives by 15%, two points less than in our previous poll two weeks ago. Altogether, the results of our poll (with changes from 4 September) are as follows:

    Labour 49% (+1)
    Conservative 34% (+3)
    Reform UK 7% (–)
    Liberal Democrat 5% (-2)
    Green 4% (-1)
    Other 1% (–)
    Plaid Cymru 0% (-1)
    Reform UK above the Lib Dems looks quite significant.
    Plaid down to 0% no doubt because @HYUFD will vote reform as his comments since Johnson make him a de facto member
  • Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'm no expert on American law but wonder if people should be laying Trump now?

    Been doing that for a while.

    He’s a proud scofflaw, but it’s been increasingly evident that there might finally be sufficient evidence of numerous illegalities for the law to have its way with him.
    One very small straw in the wind is that my sole Trumpite friend, an ex-pat from Enfield now living in Florida, now refers to him as 'an idiot'. He thinks he shouldn't run but is 'idiotic enough to do it.' This from a guy who said the day Trump won the White House was the happiest of his life.

    He hates Biden of course but nevertheless if Trump is losing the likes of him, he's finished.
    A Ron DeSantis fan, by any chance?
    Am afraid to ask him. I know he regards Steve Bannon as dangerously liberal.
  • Truss leads Starmer by 7% in the Red Wall.

    At this moment, which of the following do Red Wall voters think would be the better PM for the UK? (19-20 September)

    Liz Truss 40% (+8)
    Keir Starmer 33% (-6)
    Don't Know 27% (-2)

    Changes +/- 4 September

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-red-wall-voting-intention-18-19-september-2022

    Even Gordon Brown and the pound shop Gordon Brown led in the polls when they became.

    This is quite striking.

    Our latest Red Wall poll finds Labour leading the Conservatives by 15%, two points less than in our previous poll two weeks ago. Altogether, the results of our poll (with changes from 4 September) are as follows:

    Labour 49% (+1)
    Conservative 34% (+3)
    Reform UK 7% (–)
    Liberal Democrat 5% (-2)
    Green 4% (-1)
    Other 1% (–)
    Plaid Cymru 0% (-1)
    Reform UK above the Lib Dems looks quite significant.
    Yes, it means the LDs are getting their votes where they need them, not in the Red Wall.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433
    Nigelb said:

    This looks interesting.

    https://twitter.com/billythalheimer/status/1572556301762449410
    I’m excited to announce that REGENT has taken flight! 🛫

    We combined the benefits from ground effect flight, distributed electric propulsion, and hydrofoiling into a single platform: the seaglider

    Which will massively improve convenience & affordability of regional travel

    Ha, a modern take on the Soviet cold-war era Ekranoplan. Basically it flies in the ground effect over water.
This discussion has been closed.