Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Sleepless Knights of the Shires – politicalbetting.com

245

Comments

  • Taz said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The Guardian really are making a play for the Twitter f*ckwit demographic with these headlines, in the hope that they will repeat just the headline.

    Both the standfirst, and first sentence in the article, say it has been rescheduled (for 2 days later at the UN).



    Headlines are designed to attract readers into stories. That is their purpose. It's a great headline.

    It’s misleading and it’s just click bait.

    It is perfect for how the press operates these days.

    It's always operated that way.

  • MattWMattW Posts: 17,732
    edited September 2022

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The Guardian really are making a play for the Twitter f*ckwit demographic with these headlines, in the hope that they will repeat just the headline.

    Both the standfirst, and first sentence in the article, say it has been rescheduled (for 2 days later at the UN).



    Headlines are designed to attract readers into stories. That is their purpose. It's a great headline.

    Great headlines are not deliberately misleading as that one is, and do not misrepresent the story reported in the article.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,004
    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Here's an excellent article for the Futon Fusiliers here on the US weapon deliveries to Ukraine.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2022/09/16/f-16s-patriots-ukraine-negotiations-00057262

    Summary: Ukraine want F-16, MQ-1C and MIM-104 but are no longer stridently asking on Snapchat. F-16 isn't a near term possibility because it would involve dicking over Slovakia, Bahrain and/or The Breakaway Province of China. MIM-104 is possible because it's viewed as a solely defensive system but it will have to be new builds off the Raytheon line paid for by ???. MQ-1C is being cockblocked by the US Army (article incorrectly states USAF) because they want to retire it so the last thing they need is a bravura performance from it in the SMO.

    On the whole, the US response is a masterclass in cynical self-interest.

    It is a good article, though your reading of it is a touch partial.
    For example:
    … There is also a prioritization problem: existing NATO allies want these systems too. As more Eastern European countries ditch their older Russian or even Soviet-era aircraft, they’re looking to the U.S. to begin selling or financing F-16s for their own defense. Already, the delivery of 14 F-16s to Slovakia has been delayed a year — to 2024 — due to supply chain issues, and Taiwan remains high on the priority list for the jets and their spare parts.

    Some of these more complex systems — including the F-16s slated for retirement by the U.S. Air Force — “are likely to arrive after this conflict is over,” said a congressional staffer with knowledge of the discussions.

    As for the request for Patriot missile batteries, the U.S. has agreed to finance the sale of the National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile System, or NASAMS, for Ukraine. Officials warn that Ukraine’s capacity to train on and put to use both systems at once would be limited, at best…


    Is that “cynical self-interest”, or practical reality ? It’s not entirely clear cut.

    As I’ve noted previously, Poland was anxious to purchase F-16s, and the US keen to sell them. Supply constraints have led Poland to sound several billion dollars on the Korean FA-50 instead, as deliveries can me made almost straight away.
    NASAMS isn’t Patriot, but it’s a pretty capable system (assuming they get the AMRAAM version), again available now, and at least a couple of batteries financed by the US are already being delivered.

    As for the Grey Eagle, the Ukraine airforce also publicly lobbied against it, too, so it’s little wonder that ran into the sand.

    FWIW, and I’m not pretending any particular expertise, so you can FO with the Futon Fusiliers stuff, it seems to me that the “cynical self-interest” is more a plain desire to avoid nuclear war with Russia.

    You can certainly argue that Biden has been overly hesitant in the rate of weapon supplies (and I have), but you have to acknowledge both that consideration, and the fact that he’s governing with an extremely fragile majority in Congress.

    Against that you have to give serious credit for marshalling a coordinated NATO response, and consistent strong advocacy and support for Ukraine from before Putin’s gamble kicked off, the face of scepticism from many at the time.

    Self- interest, absolutely.
    But how many were arguing that back in February ?
    The selt interest line strikes me as a little bizarre. Out and out altruism with no upside for oneself must be incredibly rare, the nature, extent and tone of the response still seems to be worthy of recognition even if they see the benefits of it, and even with all of us not going as far as theoretically we could.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    Easy to say she's unsuited but with nothing to back it up.
    The nation needs someone to bring people together, a reassuring figure not someone like Truss that relishes division and controversy. If Ben Wallace had been elected, he and the government would be in a far stronger position today.
    I'm not sure Truss will last.

    A lot of my kids' friends are going to be dressing up to watch tomorrow's funeral and having a cream tea while it takes place. I am not sure what I make of it. But I think it's a really interesting Gen Z response. What's clear is that current events are not passing them by.

    Dressing up?

    As what?
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    Easy to say she's unsuited but with nothing to back it up.
    The nation needs someone to bring people together, a reassuring figure not someone like Truss that relishes division and controversy. If Ben Wallace had been elected, he and the government would be in a far stronger position today.
    We really do not know that and Truss is PM and frankly I cannot see her going anywhere and she will fight the next election

    On the face of it fracking, no more windfall taxes, and permitting bankers bonuses writes labour's attack lines for them, but Truss is making a fundamental change to a low tax, low state government which in itself is against the trend

    However, once low taxes filter through to pay packets with reduced NI and further tax cuts before the GE the question for labour will be which and whose taxes are they to increase and always remember the public want higher taxes as long as they are not paying them

    Labour worry that when they play the national anthem at their conference it will be booed, the unions are demanding Starmer endorses his mps attendance on picket Ines, and apparently there are moves to get Corbyn admitted back as a labour mp

    The truth is we do not know how this plays out over the next two years, but it would be reasonable to expect the government to continue to be behind in the polling for quite some time and yes, Starmer and labour are favourites for 2024 but they have to seal the deal which they have not done so far
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,803
    edited September 2022
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The Guardian really are making a play for the Twitter f*ckwit demographic with these headlines, in the hope that they will repeat just the headline.

    Both the standfirst, and first sentence in the article, say it has been rescheduled (for 2 days later at the UN).



    Headlines are designed to attract readers into stories. That is their purpose. It's a great headline.

    Great headlines are not deliberately misleading as that one is.

    They are - very frequently.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 44,915

    Leon said:

    Talking of exciting new politics, here’s a BBC report on the unrest in Leicester

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-62943952

    It’s impressive journalism because it manages to go the whole length of the article without mentioning that it’s Hindi v Muslim rioting. It does mention the
    “India V Pakistan” cricket match, so the casual reader might think people are unhappy about the LBW rule

    Presumably this is deliberate so as to “not inflame tensions” but it looks ridiculous and devious

    Maybe this bit has just been added ...

    Suleman Nagdi, of the Leicester-based Federation of Muslim Organisations told the BBC: "What we have seen on the streets is very alarming.

    "There have been problems in the community since the India and Pakistan cricket match and while that game often sparks gatherings they have not in the past turned this ugly.

    "We need calm - the disorder has to stop and it has to stop now. There are some very dissatisfied young men who have been causing havoc.

    "We need to get the message out that this must end and try to do this through parents and grand parents talking to their sons."

    Sanjiv Patel, who represents Hindu and Jain temples across Leicester, said he was deeply saddened and shocked by Saturday night's disorder.

    Just added

    Behold the power of PB
  • Leon said:

    I have just discovered that accredited journalists can skip THE QUEUE

    A moral dilemma indeed

    Stop prevaricating.

    Pack a small bag, man up and get in THE QUEUE.

    You probably have about 2 hours before your chance is gone forever.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,399
    In first 2 terms this long serving govn could have borrowed at cheap interest rates but chose not to do so …and now in its 4th term it chooses to borrow hugely as £ falls for tax cuts and to protect energy company profits. In both cases shallow revolutionaries causing mayhem
    https://twitter.com/steverichards14/status/1571418759595962369
  • tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    I have just discovered that accredited journalists can skip THE QUEUE

    A moral dilemma indeed

    https://twitter.com/MrsKatGroves/status/1571169816529993728

    Will @ITV do the right thing and pull Holly and Phil from #ThisMorning? No reason why other presenters like Rylan or Alison couldn't fill in. Nobody wants to see these #queuejumpers right now

    And...

    https://twitter.com/JoanneN93443664/status/1571173651990331392

    Phil an Holly should never be seen on TV ever again thay think thay are better than the British public, DISGRACEFUL.
    Before we partisans can comment, does anyone have a list of which MPs skipped the queue? It would be unfortunate if calls to sack Holly Willoughby led to a wave of by-elections.
  • Leon said:

    I have just discovered that accredited journalists can skip THE QUEUE

    A moral dilemma indeed

    Go for it, we’ll all enjoy you being crowned the Philip Schofield of PB.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,768
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    Easy to say she's unsuited but with nothing to back it up.
    The nation needs someone to bring people together, a reassuring figure not someone like Truss that relishes division and controversy. If Ben Wallace had been elected, he and the government would be in a far stronger position today.
    Why do we need someone to bring people together? Anyone trying to change the direction of the country will necessarily be divisive.
    I am not sure for the country will have an appetite for yet more radical change for the next one to two years. Just a hunch.

    A PM like Wallace (or even Mourdant) who would have looked dignified with a few medals on their chest and able to help reassure the nation through a difficult period, might have hit the spot and been unassailable.
    Despite achieving the rank of Captain after 27 days of reserve duty Aunt Lydia has no rattle.



  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 13,743
    edited September 2022
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    Easy to say she's unsuited but with nothing to back it up.
    The nation needs someone to bring people together, a reassuring figure not someone like Truss that relishes division and controversy. If Ben Wallace had been elected, he and the government would be in a far stronger position today.
    Why do we need someone to bring people together? Anyone trying to change the direction of the country will necessarily be divisive.
    Yes, unity is both overrated and explicitly not the goal of our politicians, even though they have to say it is. The fundamental acceptances of the system is where they come together, but not on policy issues.

    Sometimes the radicals are right and you need to change direction. The problem with the Truss's anbd Corbyn's of the world is that they are committed to a radical approach regardless of evidence, guided by ideology only (I base this not so much on Truss's past actions, but on how her boosters have been promoting her since the leadership contest).
    Truss did spend a while working for a think tank. And they generally aren't known for disinterestedly looking at evidence to come to a conclusion.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of exciting new politics, here’s a BBC report on the unrest in Leicester

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-62943952

    It’s impressive journalism because it manages to go the whole length of the article without mentioning that it’s Hindi v Muslim rioting. It does mention the
    “India V Pakistan” cricket match, so the casual reader might think people are unhappy about the LBW rule

    Presumably this is deliberate so as to “not inflame tensions” but it looks ridiculous and devious

    Maybe this bit has just been added ...

    Suleman Nagdi, of the Leicester-based Federation of Muslim Organisations told the BBC: "What we have seen on the streets is very alarming.

    "There have been problems in the community since the India and Pakistan cricket match and while that game often sparks gatherings they have not in the past turned this ugly.

    "We need calm - the disorder has to stop and it has to stop now. There are some very dissatisfied young men who have been causing havoc.

    "We need to get the message out that this must end and try to do this through parents and grand parents talking to their sons."

    Sanjiv Patel, who represents Hindu and Jain temples across Leicester, said he was deeply saddened and shocked by Saturday night's disorder.

    Just added

    Behold the power of PB

    They should really put updated at the top of the piece.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,004

    Good morning, everyone.

    A year or so ago I read a fantastic article about working from home in some American magazine... The Atlantic, maybe? I don't think it was Forbes.

    Anyway, it actually predated (or much of the info did) the pandemic. One major US firm had adopted the measure and had few in-office days, and found that (with support) this led to a significant improvement. However, management were less keen (the kudos of being the manager was diminished) and changes at the top saw the support withdrawn and then a gradual shift back towards working in the office, which saw a consequent decline.

    Working from home is not for every business, nor for every individual, but it does offer a lot for many people. Any instinctive, broad brush "This is wonderful/appalling" approach is too simplistic.

    That was my concern with some a little too keen to jump into a 'This has changed everything forever, no need for offices' kind of approach, when as you say that is just too simplistic.

    I cannot say I had considered anything relating to potential political transformation with it. I doubt the numbers have been so large as to have led to marked changes, above and beyond just standard political causes, but it is an interesting suggestion about how a wider change in the pattern of work could reframe rural areas a bit.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,399
    Whether you jumped the queue or not is going to have a bearing on how people view celebrities over the coming weeks. David Beckham has gone up in people’s estimation. Holly and Phil down. Though how Phil had that much further to fall astonishes me.
    https://twitter.com/DavidRoe92/status/1571420149244203009
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,471
    edited September 2022
    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    Easy to say she's unsuited but with nothing to back it up.
    The nation needs someone to bring people together, a reassuring figure not someone like Truss that relishes division and controversy. If Ben Wallace had been elected, he and the government would be in a far stronger position today.
    Why do we need someone to bring people together? Anyone trying to change the direction of the country will necessarily be divisive.
    I am not sure for the country will have an appetite for yet more radical change for the next one to two years. Just a hunch.

    A PM like Wallace (or even Mourdant) who would have looked dignified with a few medals on their chest and able to help reassure the nation through a difficult period, might have hit the spot and been unassailable.
    Despite achieving the rank of Captain after 27 days of reserve duty Aunt Lydia has no rattle.



    She can do both empathy and national unification, though.

    Look at the Accession ceremony for Charles that she performed.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,351
    edited September 2022

    kjh said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    Easy to say she's unsuited but with nothing to back it up.
    Must be the most ironic pot and kettle post ever. You constantly post snide negative posts about everything and have never said anything constructive. As you have been challenged by several before why don't you get off your arse and actually write a thread rather than snipping all the time.
    My stalker is back ...why don't you just take a hike. in any event all the snide comments are coming from the Anti Truss brigade.
    Why don't you, just for once, post something positive or constructive. You really do come over as someone who is very bitter.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,004
    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    Easy to say she's unsuited but with nothing to back it up.
    The nation needs someone to bring people together, a reassuring figure not someone like Truss that relishes division and controversy. If Ben Wallace had been elected, he and the government would be in a far stronger position today.
    Why do we need someone to bring people together? Anyone trying to change the direction of the country will necessarily be divisive.
    I am not sure for the country will have an appetite for yet more radical change for the next one to two years. Just a hunch.

    A PM like Wallace (or even Mourdant) who would have looked dignified with a few medals on their chest and able to help reassure the nation through a difficult period, might have hit the spot and been unassailable.
    Despite achieving the rank of Captain after 27 days of reserve duty Aunt Lydia has no rattle.

    27 days? Must have been a real hero.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    Easy to say she's unsuited but with nothing to back it up.
    The nation needs someone to bring people together, a reassuring figure not someone like Truss that relishes division and controversy. If Ben Wallace had been elected, he and the government would be in a far stronger position today.
    I'm not sure Truss will last.

    A lot of my kids' friends are going to be dressing up to watch tomorrow's funeral and having a cream tea while it takes place. I am not sure what I make of it. But I think it's a really interesting Gen Z response. What's clear is that current events are not passing them by.

    Dressing up?

    As what?

    Dressing up as in putting on their finest clothes as befits an important occasion.

  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,729

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    He'd have been completely hopeless.

    I wonder what the meeting cancellation is about. I suppose there's an outside chance it's Biden 'punishing' Truss. Seems likelier it's a Biden health issue.
    The meeting has been moved to the UN on Wednesday and is a bilateral one

    The reporting that this is a snub to Truss is pure politics and it seems perfect sense to delay it by 3 days
    Even some Tory minded papers have picked the story up and are running with it.
    If it was never going to fly, did Truss gaffe by abortively attempting to schedule it in the run up to the Queen's funeral and letting that be known publically?

    If it's not a snub, then fine, there has been a gaffe.
  • MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Alleged criminal conspiracy aside, Fullbrook faces Qs:

    Why was he working for millionaire Venezuelan — foreign national — in the US?

    Did he know his client was a long time fugitive from his home country?

    Why did he work w/disgraced ex-FBI agent convicted of crimes in the role?


    https://twitter.com/gabriel_pogrund/status/1571183835609534466

    Another one of those Sunday Times scoops.

    In which they translate 'interviewed as a witness' in their article into "involved in an alleged conspiracy" in the couple of paras the public can see.
    Well, obviously there is an alleged conspiracy that the FBI is investigating, and obviously the FBI thinks the witness is somehow involved. They are not conducting door-to-door enquiries to ask if anyone saw a man acting suspiciously.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 44,915

    Leon said:

    I have just discovered that accredited journalists can skip THE QUEUE

    A moral dilemma indeed

    Stop prevaricating.

    Pack a small bag, man up and get in THE QUEUE.

    You probably have about 2 hours before your chance is gone forever.

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of exciting new politics, here’s a BBC report on the unrest in Leicester

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-62943952

    It’s impressive journalism because it manages to go the whole length of the article without mentioning that it’s Hindi v Muslim rioting. It does mention the
    “India V Pakistan” cricket match, so the casual reader might think people are unhappy about the LBW rule

    Presumably this is deliberate so as to “not inflame tensions” but it looks ridiculous and devious

    Maybe this bit has just been added ...

    Suleman Nagdi, of the Leicester-based Federation of Muslim Organisations told the BBC: "What we have seen on the streets is very alarming.

    "There have been problems in the community since the India and Pakistan cricket match and while that game often sparks gatherings they have not in the past turned this ugly.

    "We need calm - the disorder has to stop and it has to stop now. There are some very dissatisfied young men who have been causing havoc.

    "We need to get the message out that this must end and try to do this through parents and grand parents talking to their sons."

    Sanjiv Patel, who represents Hindu and Jain temples across Leicester, said he was deeply saddened and shocked by Saturday night's disorder.

    Just added

    Behold the power of PB

    They should really put updated at the top of the piece.

    They did



  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,399
    Pro_Rata said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    He'd have been completely hopeless.

    I wonder what the meeting cancellation is about. I suppose there's an outside chance it's Biden 'punishing' Truss. Seems likelier it's a Biden health issue.
    The meeting has been moved to the UN on Wednesday and is a bilateral one

    The reporting that this is a snub to Truss is pure politics and it seems perfect sense to delay it by 3 days
    Even some Tory minded papers have picked the story up and are running with it.
    If it was never going to fly, did Truss gaffe by abortively attempting to schedule it in the run up to the Queen's funeral and letting that be known publically?

    If it's not a snub, then fine, there has been a gaffe.
    Truss is meeting other World leaders this weekend.

    Biden was on the list.

    And he removed himself.

    Looks like a snub. Smells like a snub.

    Reported as a snub
  • Carnyx said:

    We are also at the end of 12 years of Tory ‘government’ as coalition or sole party. People are fed up up. The corruption is rising to the top just like it did in the nineties. We have just been through an awful pandemic where at best the government got some stuff right and some stuff wrong (some will fell that should be a lot wrong). Now there is a CoL crisis, partly because of the pandemic and partly due to the War in Ukraine. We are at war with Russia, just not in the same way we were with Germany in 1939. There is far less sense of national unity because the war is fa4 away and it’s not out troops and citizens dying, but we are at war with Russia.

    So frankly it would be amazing if the Tories weren’t suffering in the polls, everywhere.

    Right now we need Labour and the Lib Dems to show the nation what they would do with 5 years in power. Give hope, and then the nation may just change tack significantly. Don’t forget, the Tories legitimately won the 2019 election. They have the right to be in power right now. Labour and/or the Lib Dems need to earn their right too.

    There is an "end of days" feel out there, and the sudden death of the Queen after appointing Truss hasn't helped that. Politics has been suspended during the period of national hysteria, but the lobby hacks are increasingly reporting serious concerns in the Tory Party about what impact Trussnomics will have.

    In essence when it feels like the wrong approach the market is very good at ramming that perception home. With 18 months of economic contraction now forecast we're into the "government breaks the economy and sneeringly insists its dogma is right and the people's suffering can be ignored" scenario.

    Thats not to say its gift week for the opposition parties. But even if all they show is empathy that would be a huge step forward. Brexit's reception in rural shires was mentioned in the piece, and I have seen here in Banff and Buchan what happens when the MP says "everything is marvellous" and the farming and fishing voters say "no it isn't and why aren't you listening to us"?
    Which way would the farming and fishing folk vote, do you think? Or will they stay home?
    An excellent question, and I think the answer is "that depends". Put someone sensible up against the "marvellous isn't it" Tory and I can see them winning regardless of the party - LibDem, SNP, Labour, Plaid. Put up an ideologue and its zealot against zealot and they will stay at home.

    In business, the clarity of the P&L usually overrides any political imaginations and dogmas. It doesn't matter whether Tory MPs think Brexit is a big success, or whether these voters hoped it would be a big success. Its hard to deny the economic damage being done, at least with a straight face, so MPs like my own who simply ignore their former voters' concerns will be toast.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 17,732
    Scott_xP said:

    MattW said:

    Both the standfirst, and first sentence in the article, say it has been rescheduled (for 2 days later at the UN).

    Oh, the meeting her chief of staff is explicitly not attending.

    Right.
    Nothing about that in the Graun article afaics. Link?
  • Scott_xP said:

    Whether you jumped the queue or not is going to have a bearing on how people view celebrities over the coming weeks. David Beckham has gone up in people’s estimation. Holly and Phil down. Though how Phil had that much further to fall astonishes me.
    https://twitter.com/DavidRoe92/status/1571420149244203009

    I think Holly and Phil have displayed great patriotism. On every great state occasion that brings the country together there always needs to be villains at who scorn and fury can be directed. The two of them have stepped up when people like David Beckham and Susanna Reid wouldn't.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,004

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The Guardian really are making a play for the Twitter f*ckwit demographic with these headlines, in the hope that they will repeat just the headline.

    Both the standfirst, and first sentence in the article, say it has been rescheduled (for 2 days later at the UN).



    Headlines are designed to attract readers into stories. That is their purpose. It's a great headline.

    Great headlines are not deliberately misleading as that one is.

    They are - very frequently.

    Perhaps there can be a sliding scale - good headlines attract readers into stories, great headlines attract readers into stories and are mostly accurate as well.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,884

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    Easy to say she's unsuited but with nothing to back it up.
    The nation needs someone to bring people together, a reassuring figure not someone like Truss that relishes division and controversy. If Ben Wallace had been elected, he and the government would be in a far stronger position today.
    Why do we need someone to bring people together? Anyone trying to change the direction of the country will necessarily be divisive.
    I am not sure for the country will have an appetite for yet more radical change for the next one to two years. Just a hunch.

    A PM like Wallace (or even Mourdant) who would have looked dignified with a few medals on their chest and able to help reassure the nation through a difficult period, might have hit the spot and been unassailable. Truss is not that, despite her other strengths.
    "her other strengths"

    Citation required.....
    Truss has supreme self-belief sufficient to flip frequently and effortlessly between opposing views (whenever it suits her) and yet present herself as an aggressive, conviction politician.

    It’s audacious. It’s the natural evolution of Boris, who believed in himself but had no ideology beyond that. Truss goes one step further, she shares Boris’ self believe, but also convinces herself she sincerely believes whatever principle she has hooked onto this month.

    As such she was able to convince the right she was the right person and defeat a host of stronger candidates this summer. You don’t become PM without some talent.
  • Taz said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The Guardian really are making a play for the Twitter f*ckwit demographic with these headlines, in the hope that they will repeat just the headline.

    Both the standfirst, and first sentence in the article, say it has been rescheduled (for 2 days later at the UN).



    Headlines are designed to attract readers into stories. That is their purpose. It's a great headline.

    It’s misleading and it’s just click bait.

    It is perfect for how the press operates these days.

    It's always operated that way.

    Since the truth is the casualty the Guardian has invariably misrepresented it but they are no worse than the Daily Mail which is a disgusting rag which wouldn't kniw the truth whatever the subject.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 44,915
    edited September 2022

    Leon said:

    I have just discovered that accredited journalists can skip THE QUEUE

    A moral dilemma indeed

    Stop prevaricating.

    Pack a small bag, man up and get in THE QUEUE.

    You probably have about 2 hours before your chance is gone forever.
    You’re right. I’m going to do my duty, get my lazy arse in gear, get down to that bloody queue, then completely skip it with my Press Card, see the Queen at my leisure, then head out for lunch with a friend

    That’s my duty, as a loyal member of His Majesty’s Press, Knapper’s Gazette branch
  • Pro_Rata said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    He'd have been completely hopeless.

    I wonder what the meeting cancellation is about. I suppose there's an outside chance it's Biden 'punishing' Truss. Seems likelier it's a Biden health issue.
    The meeting has been moved to the UN on Wednesday and is a bilateral one

    The reporting that this is a snub to Truss is pure politics and it seems perfect sense to delay it by 3 days
    Even some Tory minded papers have picked the story up and are running with it.
    If it was never going to fly, did Truss gaffe by abortively attempting to schedule it in the run up to the Queen's funeral and letting that be known publically?

    If it's not a snub, then fine, there has been a gaffe.
    Like the "accompanying the King" thing?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,399
    MattW said:

    Nothing about that in the Graun article afaics. Link?

    NEW: Mr Fullbrook will not be joining Truss for the UN general assembly meeting in New York next week.

    Sources insist it is for workload reasons — related to forthcoming economic announcements — and entirely unrelated to FBI investigation.

    https://twitter.com/gabriel_pogrund/status/1571183835609534466
  • MattWMattW Posts: 17,732

    Good morning, everyone.

    A year or so ago I read a fantastic article about working from home in some American magazine... The Atlantic, maybe? I don't think it was Forbes.

    Anyway, it actually predated (or much of the info did) the pandemic. One major US firm had adopted the measure and had few in-office days, and found that (with support) this led to a significant improvement. However, management were less keen (the kudos of being the manager was diminished) and changes at the top saw the support withdrawn and then a gradual shift back towards working in the office, which saw a consequent decline.

    Working from home is not for every business, nor for every individual, but it does offer a lot for many people. Any instinctive, broad brush "This is wonderful/appalling" approach is too simplistic.

    I totally agree with you that it isn't for every individual or every business - but for some it's been fantastic. Within my own family, my brother (who is a manager), told me this week he goes into the office about 1 day every 3 weeks, and that's purely for social interaction and catchups - work meetings are done entirely on zoom. One of my nieces nominally works on the Isle of Wight, where she grew up, but for nearly a year now hasbeen WFH from Edinburgh, with her employer's approval and support. And another niece is working in London but is planning to move - her 'workplace' remains London, but she'll be living in Berlin. Her company is helping to fund the relocation. She wants to do a year or two there, and then move to another new site.
    It's a different world for some!
    Serious question on that. What happens to London salary weightings? Are they paid when the employee is 80-90% in Edinburgh, the IoW of Berlin?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,258
    edited September 2022
    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    Easy to say she's unsuited but with nothing to back it up.
    Must be the most ironic pot and kettle post ever. You constantly post snide negative posts about everything and have never said anything constructive. As you have been challenged by several before why don't you get off your arse and actually write a thread rather than snipping all the time.
    My stalker is back ...why don't you just take a hike. in any event all the snide comments are coming from the Anti Truss brigade.
    Why don't you, just for once, post something positive or constructive. You really do come over as someone who is very bitter.
    Take a look in the mirror chummy. You don't like what I post , then ignore it. I shall cetainly ignore you from on. Have a good day.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 59,655
    edited September 2022
    Scott_xP said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    He'd have been completely hopeless.

    I wonder what the meeting cancellation is about. I suppose there's an outside chance it's Biden 'punishing' Truss. Seems likelier it's a Biden health issue.
    The meeting has been moved to the UN on Wednesday and is a bilateral one

    The reporting that this is a snub to Truss is pure politics and it seems perfect sense to delay it by 3 days
    Even some Tory minded papers have picked the story up and are running with it.
    If it was never going to fly, did Truss gaffe by abortively attempting to schedule it in the run up to the Queen's funeral and letting that be known publically?

    If it's not a snub, then fine, there has been a gaffe.
    Truss is meeting other World leaders this weekend.

    Biden was on the list.

    And he removed himself.

    Looks like a snub. Smells like a snub.

    Reported as a snub
    In your world of course it is a snub

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,399

    In your world of course it a snub

    In the real World it's a snub
  • Scott_xP said:

    In your world of course it a snub

    In the real World it's a snub
    It would only be a snub if they were not having a bilateral meeting in New York in 3 days time

    A snub is when the meeting does not take place
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    Easy to say she's unsuited but with nothing to back it up.
    The nation needs someone to bring people together, a reassuring figure not someone like Truss that relishes division and controversy. If Ben Wallace had been elected, he and the government would be in a far stronger position today.
    I'm not sure Truss will last.

    A lot of my kids' friends are going to be dressing up to watch tomorrow's funeral and having a cream tea while it takes place. I am not sure what I make of it. But I think it's a really interesting Gen Z response. What's clear is that current events are not passing them by.

    Dressing up?

    As what?

    Dressing up as in putting on their finest clothes as befits an important occasion.

    That's very interesting.

    Gen Z'ers dressing up in finery for a royal funeral and having a cream tea aren't exactly incipient signs of republicanism.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Whether you jumped the queue or not is going to have a bearing on how people view celebrities over the coming weeks. David Beckham has gone up in people’s estimation. Holly and Phil down. Though how Phil had that much further to fall astonishes me.
    https://twitter.com/DavidRoe92/status/1571420149244203009

    I think Holly and Phil have displayed great patriotism. On every great state occasion that brings the country together there always needs to be villains at who scorn and fury can be directed. The two of them have stepped up when people like David Beckham and Susanna Reid wouldn't.

    I really don't give a toss about either the This Morning presenters or the "THEY JUMPED THE QUEUE" hysteria. Reports have the length of the thing as being 14 ours or so - do TV presenters on every day actually have time to do the queue?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,471
    edited September 2022
    Re; MexicanPete's point on Poles either going up into senior positions or returning home, that is interesting. If the average family really is now 20% poorer than our neighbouring countries , as per the study, that would indeed start to bring them close to some of the slightly better Eastern European living standards, as the FT article says.
  • When the period of national hysteria ends on Monday, what will the press find to fill all that space?

    You have three times on this thread referred to national hysteria. I've not seen anything to characterise as hysterical, which term could fairly describe the reaction to Princess Diana's death. These past few days, the public's reaction has been overwhelmingly of reflection and appreciation.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I have just discovered that accredited journalists can skip THE QUEUE

    A moral dilemma indeed

    Stop prevaricating.

    Pack a small bag, man up and get in THE QUEUE.

    You probably have about 2 hours before your chance is gone forever.
    You’re right. I’m going to do my duty, get my lazy arse in gear, get down to that bloody queue, then completely skip it with my Press Card, see the Queen at my leisure, then head out for lunch with a friend

    That’s my duty, as a loyal member of His Majesty’s Press, Knapper’s Gazette branch
    To be printed in The Spectator - "I didn't have to queue with Woke Remoaners"?

    I have some friends who have done the queue. I honestly do not get it. At all.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 44,915

    Scott_xP said:

    Whether you jumped the queue or not is going to have a bearing on how people view celebrities over the coming weeks. David Beckham has gone up in people’s estimation. Holly and Phil down. Though how Phil had that much further to fall astonishes me.
    https://twitter.com/DavidRoe92/status/1571420149244203009

    I think Holly and Phil have displayed great patriotism. On every great state occasion that brings the country together there always needs to be villains at who scorn and fury can be directed. The two of them have stepped up when people like David Beckham and Susanna Reid wouldn't.

    I really don't give a toss about either the This Morning presenters or the "THEY JUMPED THE QUEUE" hysteria. Reports have the length of the thing as being 14 ours or so - do TV presenters on every day actually have time to do the queue?
    Also, they didn’t skip the queue. Turns out accredited journalists with a press card get special access. Which makes sense, otherwise how do the media cover the story? How do they do their job?

    ITV should simply admit this, and tell the public to vent their ire on the organisers, who made these quite sensible rules
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    Easy to say she's unsuited but with nothing to back it up.
    The nation needs someone to bring people together, a reassuring figure not someone like Truss that relishes division and controversy. If Ben Wallace had been elected, he and the government would be in a far stronger position today.
    I'm not sure Truss will last.

    A lot of my kids' friends are going to be dressing up to watch tomorrow's funeral and having a cream tea while it takes place. I am not sure what I make of it. But I think it's a really interesting Gen Z response. What's clear is that current events are not passing them by.

    Dressing up?

    As what?

    Dressing up as in putting on their finest clothes as befits an important occasion.

    That's very interesting.

    Gen Z'ers dressing up in finery for a royal funeral and having a cream tea aren't exactly incipient signs of republicanism.

    My sample is only three, but none my kids have given even the slightest indication they have any active interest in scrapping the monarchy. What I don't know is how bothered they would be if it was scrapped. I am pretty sure they are less attached to it than older generations, but they would need a lot of persuading that it would be helpful to get rid of it.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,003
    edited September 2022

    Icarus said:

    "From May to August this year, there have been 36 council by-elections across England in seats held by the Conservatives: 15 urban, 21 rural. Looking just at wins, the results are similar: the Cons successfully defended 4 (36%) urban seats, and 6 (40%) rural seats."

    I do not understand the percentages of seats held. 4 out of 15 is 27% - 6 out of 21 is 29%. The Conservatives lost 26 seat out of 36 defended - May 2023 is going to be bloodbath for the Conservatives.

    Sorry, you're correct and that's my fault. My original piece was May to August, but because of delays in me getting it to TSE, I offered some updated figures including the by-elections in September so far. And somehow I ended up with a merged set of data which was incorrect. The percentages were correctfor the May-August, but the 4 and 15 are are up to September.
    Thank you for the interesting article.
    Leon said:

    I have just discovered that accredited journalists can skip THE QUEUE

    A moral dilemma indeed

    Go on. You know you want to. It will inspire your next flints and indeed the article you write for that Gazette. Just make sure your stalker is in The Long Proper Queue so he can't steal your insights.
    Icarus said:

    Surely the most impressive own goal is that during the period of mourning when the Government is powerless to do anything and even McDonalds closes on the day of the funeral they manage to let it be known that banker's bonuses will be allowed to increase.

    When the cap was introduced a lot of firms increased base salaries. If the cap is lifted, those base salaries really should be reduced again. But, guess what, I bet they won't be. So bankers will get both the increased salaries and and bonuses many multiples of larger salaries. Kerching!!!
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,351

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    Easy to say she's unsuited but with nothing to back it up.
    Must be the most ironic pot and kettle post ever. You constantly post snide negative posts about everything and have never said anything constructive. As you have been challenged by several before why don't you get off your arse and actually write a thread rather than snipping all the time.
    My stalker is back ...why don't you just take a hike. in any event all the snide comments are coming from the Anti Truss brigade.
    Why don't you, just for once, post something positive or constructive. You really do come over as someone who is very bitter.
    Take a look in the mirror chummy. You don't like what I post , then ignore it. I shall cetainly ignore you from on. Have a good day.
    Look in the mirror? Just look at my posts. The first ones I wrote today were complimentary of the lying in state and the public attending it and the tv coverage. Other than ones for comedic effect I write constructive posts, arguing a point. I have liked several posts today. Some for people I don't agree with, but because they have produced well constructive arguments.

    You just post bile after bile without any content.

    If you don't like what you see here then argue against it, write a header or do something constructive. Anything. Even post a joke, but do something worthwhile.

    Otherwise just sod off with your negativity.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 42,826

    Alistair said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Here's an excellent article for the Futon Fusiliers here on the US weapon deliveries to Ukraine.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2022/09/16/f-16s-patriots-ukraine-negotiations-00057262

    Summary: Ukraine want F-16, MQ-1C and MIM-104 but are no longer stridently asking on Snapchat. F-16 isn't a near term possibility because it would involve dicking over Slovakia, Bahrain and/or The Breakaway Province of China. MIM-104 is possible because it's viewed as a solely defensive system but it will have to be new builds off the Raytheon line paid for by ???. MQ-1C is being cockblocked by the US Army (article incorrectly states USAF) because they want to retire it so the last thing they need is a bravura performance from it in the SMO.

    On the whole, the US response is a masterclass in cynical self-interest.

    What are you hearing about the Ukrainians training on A-10 Warthogs, the final batch of which were due to go get parked in an Arizona desert...
    Zero chance.

    For both practical and political reasons.
    Aren't they essentially [slow] flying coffins on a modern battlefield? I reality don't understand the obsession done people have with them.
    I think middle aged blokes can imagine themselves flying them. I may even have done it myself, though my fantasies tend to have a more piston engined vibe.
    There is an element of “forget all the insanely expensive electronics, look at the big gun” - see the battleship reactivation rubbish.

    The belief that close air support must involve getting close to the target is an interesting psychological one. Ed Rasmius - a pilot who flew F-106 and F-4 in Vietnam - told a story of an exercise in the US where he was flying F16 in a close support role. Given they were exercising against a simulated USSR army, they thought that flying over the targets would be suicide. So they used the shiny digital computers in their F16 to lob bombs from a distance. Apparently they were getting a very good ratio of hits.

    The umpires ruled all of the actual hits on the “enemy” tanks as invalid. Because the striking aircraft hadn’t flown over the targets. Which made it unfair for the guys simulating the SAMs and guns on the ground….
  • Alistair said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Here's an excellent article for the Futon Fusiliers here on the US weapon deliveries to Ukraine.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2022/09/16/f-16s-patriots-ukraine-negotiations-00057262

    Summary: Ukraine want F-16, MQ-1C and MIM-104 but are no longer stridently asking on Snapchat. F-16 isn't a near term possibility because it would involve dicking over Slovakia, Bahrain and/or The Breakaway Province of China. MIM-104 is possible because it's viewed as a solely defensive system but it will have to be new builds off the Raytheon line paid for by ???. MQ-1C is being cockblocked by the US Army (article incorrectly states USAF) because they want to retire it so the last thing they need is a bravura performance from it in the SMO.

    On the whole, the US response is a masterclass in cynical self-interest.

    What are you hearing about the Ukrainians training on A-10 Warthogs, the final batch of which were due to go get parked in an Arizona desert...
    Zero chance.

    For both practical and political reasons.
    Aren't they essentially [slow] flying coffins on a modern battlefield? I reality don't understand the obsession done people have with them.
    "What are you doing? You just killed a friendly!" - A10 Tank Killer - the game.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,003

    A lot of my kids' friends are going to be dressing up to watch tomorrow's funeral and having a cream tea while it takes place. I am not sure what I make of it. But I think it's a really interesting Gen Z response. What's clear is that current events are not passing them by.

    Cream teas at 11 am! They'll be putting cream and jam on their scones in the wrong order, next. What is the world coming to?!
  • Scott_xP said:

    In your world of course it a snub

    In the real World it's a snub
    It would only be a snub if they were not having a bilateral meeting in New York in 3 days time

    A snub is when the meeting does not take place
    No, it is a snub. The question is, why? Did Biden wish to make it clear that he is in charge, that the United States is the senior partner, that any meeting will take place on his terms? Is there someone else Biden prefers to meet in London?
  • Scott_xP said:

    Whether you jumped the queue or not is going to have a bearing on how people view celebrities over the coming weeks. David Beckham has gone up in people’s estimation. Holly and Phil down. Though how Phil had that much further to fall astonishes me.
    https://twitter.com/DavidRoe92/status/1571420149244203009

    I think Holly and Phil have displayed great patriotism. On every great state occasion that brings the country together there always needs to be villains at who scorn and fury can be directed. The two of them have stepped up when people like David Beckham and Susanna Reid wouldn't.

    I really don't give a toss about either the This Morning presenters or the "THEY JUMPED THE QUEUE" hysteria. Reports have the length of the thing as being 14 ours or so - do TV presenters on every day actually have time to do the queue?
    Do you think everybody else does?

    We all have jobs to do and families to care for.

    Unless they're covering it they can get in the bloody queue with everyone else.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 44,915

    Re; MexicanPete's point on Poles either going up into senior positions or returning home, that is interesting. If the average family really is now 20% poorer than our neighbouring countries, that would indeed start to bring them close to some of the slightly better East European living standards, as the FT article says.


    I read the story with one raised eyebrow. JB Murdoch is a good journalist so I’m willing to believe him, yet the data doesn’t quite pass the smell test

    I’ve just come from southern Spain and Portugal which have a similar GDP per capita to parts of
    Eastern Europe. Landing in Gatwick it is immediately obvious the UK is much richer (even taking into account the fact I landed in prosperous SE England)

    The graphs apparently use GDP by PPP, which might be a confounding factor here


  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,399
    Cyclefree said:

    They'll be putting cream and jam on their scones in the wrong order, next.

    You mean jam and cream, of course...
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,471
    edited September 2022
    Leon said:

    Re; MexicanPete's point on Poles either going up into senior positions or returning home, that is interesting. If the average family really is now 20% poorer than our neighbouring countries, that would indeed start to bring them close to some of the slightly better East European living standards, as the FT article says.


    I read the story with one raised eyebrow. JB Murdoch is a good journalist so I’m willing to believe him, yet the data doesn’t quite pass the smell test

    I’ve just come from southern Spain and Portugal which have a similar GDP per capita to parts of
    Eastern Europe. Landing in Gatwick it is immediately obvious the UK is much richer (even taking into account the fact I landed in prosperous SE England)

    The graphs apparently use GDP by PPP, which might be a confounding factor here


    But I think landing in Sussex may be the key there. So many of the UK's disparities are regional, and also urban/suburban.

    I also think they're using NorthWest Europe as the measure, which is why it's an absolute disgrace for all Britain's main parties if we've gone from 7% poorer to 20% poorer than the rest of it in 15 years. Southern Europe has had much bigger problems.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I have just discovered that accredited journalists can skip THE QUEUE

    A moral dilemma indeed

    Stop prevaricating.

    Pack a small bag, man up and get in THE QUEUE.

    You probably have about 2 hours before your chance is gone forever.
    You’re right. I’m going to do my duty, get my lazy arse in gear, get down to that bloody queue, then completely skip it with my Press Card, see the Queen at my leisure, then head out for lunch with a friend

    That’s my duty, as a loyal member of His Majesty’s Press, Knapper’s Gazette branch
    Of course you fucking will. You’d be daft not to. If I were in your position and wanted to go I’d do the same.

    But you will not be allowed to don the mantle of suffering and perseverance that the 14 hour pilgrimage would bestow, a holy cleansing of your soul, a glorious, public affirmation of your diamond hard unquenchable patriotism and fealty to our glorious ex-monarch.

    You’ll just look like a cynical chancer. Go for it!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 44,915

    Leon said:

    Re; MexicanPete's point on Poles either going up into senior positions or returning home, that is interesting. If the average family really is now 20% poorer than our neighbouring countries, that would indeed start to bring them close to some of the slightly better East European living standards, as the FT article says.


    I read the story with one raised eyebrow. JB Murdoch is a good journalist so I’m willing to believe him, yet the data doesn’t quite pass the smell test

    I’ve just come from southern Spain and Portugal which have a similar GDP per capita to parts of
    Eastern Europe. Landing in Gatwick it is immediately obvious the UK is much richer (even taking into account the fact I landed in prosperous SE England)

    The graphs apparently use GDP by PPP, which might be a confounding factor here


    But I think landing in Sussex may be the key there. So many of the UK's disparities are regional, and also urban'suburban.
    No, the sleight of hand is using GDP by PPP and focusing on Slovenia

    By this bizarre method he could also have pointed out that “Eastern Europe” (aka Slovenia) is ALREADY richer than Spain, will next year overtake Japan, Israel and Italy, then the UK and France, then Canada

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

    PPP is useful in some ways, deeply deceptive in others
  • Scott_xP said:

    Whether you jumped the queue or not is going to have a bearing on how people view celebrities over the coming weeks. David Beckham has gone up in people’s estimation. Holly and Phil down. Though how Phil had that much further to fall astonishes me.
    https://twitter.com/DavidRoe92/status/1571420149244203009

    I think Holly and Phil have displayed great patriotism. On every great state occasion that brings the country together there always needs to be villains at who scorn and fury can be directed. The two of them have stepped up when people like David Beckham and Susanna Reid wouldn't.

    I really don't give a toss about either the This Morning presenters or the "THEY JUMPED THE QUEUE" hysteria. Reports have the length of the thing as being 14 ours or so - do TV presenters on every day actually have time to do the queue?
    Do you think everybody else does?

    We all have jobs to do and families to care for.

    Unless they're covering it they can get in the bloody queue with everyone else.
    Turn out they were covering it. Filming apiece for next week. Cue Twitter commentator fury "they're TV presenters, not journalists!"
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 4,383

    Scott_xP said:

    Whether you jumped the queue or not is going to have a bearing on how people view celebrities over the coming weeks. David Beckham has gone up in people’s estimation. Holly and Phil down. Though how Phil had that much further to fall astonishes me.
    https://twitter.com/DavidRoe92/status/1571420149244203009

    I think Holly and Phil have displayed great patriotism. On every great state occasion that brings the country together there always needs to be villains at who scorn and fury can be directed. The two of them have stepped up when people like David Beckham and Susanna Reid wouldn't.

    I really don't give a toss about either the This Morning presenters or the "THEY JUMPED THE QUEUE" hysteria. Reports have the length of the thing as being 14 ours or so - do TV presenters on every day actually have time to do the queue?
    The whole thing is concocted outrage .
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,399

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I have just discovered that accredited journalists can skip THE QUEUE

    A moral dilemma indeed

    Stop prevaricating.

    Pack a small bag, man up and get in THE QUEUE.

    You probably have about 2 hours before your chance is gone forever.
    You’re right. I’m going to do my duty, get my lazy arse in gear, get down to that bloody queue, then completely skip it with my Press Card, see the Queen at my leisure, then head out for lunch with a friend

    That’s my duty, as a loyal member of His Majesty’s Press, Knapper’s Gazette branch
    Of course you fucking will. You’d be daft not to. If I were in your position and wanted to go I’d do the same.

    But you will not be allowed to don the mantle of suffering and perseverance that the 14 hour pilgrimage would bestow, a holy cleansing of your soul, a glorious, public affirmation of your diamond hard unquenchable patriotism and fealty to our glorious ex-monarch.

    You’ll just look like a cynical chancer. Go for it!
    SeanT's latest reincarnation

    Philip Schofield...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,837

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The Guardian really are making a play for the Twitter f*ckwit demographic with these headlines, in the hope that they will repeat just the headline.

    Both the standfirst, and first sentence in the article, say it has been rescheduled (for 2 days later at the UN).



    “Truss’s first big diplomatic meeting with Biden postponed by 3 days” doesn’t have the same newsworthy ring to it….
    Especially when in 3 days they can have a broader topic of discussions than protocol of attending a state funeral would allow....
  • Michael Portillo hosting a chat show on GB News!
  • kle4 said:

    Obviously there are limitations when it comes to looking at local by-elections, but I still like to see it, so good to have thos from JamesDoyle. Still worth keeping an eye on.

    Also on topic, maybe the Tories are now suffering the same problem as Labour used to have with "piling up votes in safe seats"?
    In 1983 when the Tory majority in Westminster was bigger than now, the area I hail from (southern Worcestershire), the Con vote was about 55%. Now it is more like 65%.
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651
    edited September 2022
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I have just discovered that accredited journalists can skip THE QUEUE

    A moral dilemma indeed

    Stop prevaricating.

    Pack a small bag, man up and get in THE QUEUE.

    You probably have about 2 hours before your chance is gone forever.
    You’re right. I’m going to do my duty, get my lazy arse in gear, get down to that bloody queue, then completely skip it with my Press Card, see the Queen at my leisure, then head out for lunch with a friend

    That’s my duty, as a loyal member of His Majesty’s Press, Knapper’s Gazette branch
    You know you said you'd physically fight to keep the monarchy? If a referendum decided to abolish it, would you be willing to take part in the kind of terrorist actions in favour of the monarchy that you were calling for Zelensky's government to carry out in Russia?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,003

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I have just discovered that accredited journalists can skip THE QUEUE

    A moral dilemma indeed

    Stop prevaricating.

    Pack a small bag, man up and get in THE QUEUE.

    You probably have about 2 hours before your chance is gone forever.
    You’re right. I’m going to do my duty, get my lazy arse in gear, get down to that bloody queue, then completely skip it with my Press Card, see the Queen at my leisure, then head out for lunch with a friend

    That’s my duty, as a loyal member of His Majesty’s Press, Knapper’s Gazette branch
    Of course you fucking will. You’d be daft not to. If I were in your position and wanted to go I’d do the same.

    But you will not be allowed to don the mantle of suffering and perseverance that the 14 hour pilgrimage would bestow, a holy cleansing of your soul, a glorious, public affirmation of your diamond hard unquenchable patriotism and fealty to our glorious ex-monarch.

    You’ll just look like a cynical chancer. Go for it!
    Ah, but he will be our cynical chancer. And we have @Casino_Royale, @Eabhal and @HYUFD (apologies to any I have missed) to don the mantle of proper queuers.

  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Re; MexicanPete's point on Poles either going up into senior positions or returning home, that is interesting. If the average family really is now 20% poorer than our neighbouring countries, that would indeed start to bring them close to some of the slightly better East European living standards, as the FT article says.


    I read the story with one raised eyebrow. JB Murdoch is a good journalist so I’m willing to believe him, yet the data doesn’t quite pass the smell test

    I’ve just come from southern Spain and Portugal which have a similar GDP per capita to parts of
    Eastern Europe. Landing in Gatwick it is immediately obvious the UK is much richer (even taking into account the fact I landed in prosperous SE England)

    The graphs apparently use GDP by PPP, which might be a confounding factor here


    But I think landing in Sussex may be the key there. So many of the UK's disparities are regional, and also urban'suburban.
    No, the sleight of hand is using GDP by PPP and focusing on Slovenia

    By this bizarre method he could also have pointed out that “Eastern Europe” (aka Slovenia) is ALREADY richer than Spain, will next year overtake Japan, Israel and Italy, then the UK and France, then Canada

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

    PPP is useful in some ways, deeply deceptive in others
    Well ; as I mentioned, the article uses Northwestern Europe as our yardstick. We've clearly fallen much further behind our neighbours, while Southern Europe has also suffered quite a lot.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 42,826

    When the period of national hysteria ends on Monday, what will the press find to fill all that space?

    You have three times on this thread referred to national hysteria. I've not seen anything to characterise as hysterical, which term could fairly describe the reaction to Princess Diana's death. These past few days, the public's reaction has been overwhelmingly of reflection and appreciation.
    Hysteria? There’s been a very small amount of quiet tears. And a lot of people standing quietly for hours, for various things.

    It reminds me of the first countryside march. Totally peaceful, quiet. The joke that they tidied up Hyde Park was pretty much true.

    A couple of university acquaintances were there. Black Bloc types. They were horrified, angered… and terrified. To them, “middle class” people having a quiet demo was Fascism… “I felt the menace when they looked at me” was one comment. This from a guy who thought that smashing shop windows was valuable social commentary.

    It was simply that a large protest “the other way” wasn’t in their world view - riots are ok when they are from your side. Viscous little dreams of beating up your opponents are cool. The “others” assembling in large numbers - END TIMES!

    For republicans if a certain bent, the current events are wrong, EVUL! IMMORAL! FASCISM!

    Meanwhile everyone else has a cup of tea.

  • kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    Easy to say she's unsuited but with nothing to back it up.
    Must be the most ironic pot and kettle post ever. You constantly post snide negative posts about everything and have never said anything constructive. As you have been challenged by several before why don't you get off your arse and actually write a thread rather than snipping all the time.
    My stalker is back ...why don't you just take a hike. in any event all the snide comments are coming from the Anti Truss brigade.
    Why don't you, just for once, post something positive or constructive. You really do come over as someone who is very bitter.
    Take a look in the mirror chummy. You don't like what I post , then ignore it. I shall cetainly ignore you from on. Have a good day.
    Look in the mirror? Just look at my posts. The first ones I wrote today were complimentary of the lying in state and the public attending it and the tv coverage. Other than ones for comedic effect I write constructive posts, arguing a point. I have liked several posts today. Some for people I don't agree with, but because they have produced well constructive arguments.

    You just post bile after bile without any content.

    If you don't like what you see here then argue against it, write a header or do something constructive. Anything. Even post a joke, but do something worthwhile.

    Otherwise just sod off with your negativity.
    I will post what I like. You are not the sole arbiter. If you don't like what I post ignore it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,381

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I have just discovered that accredited journalists can skip THE QUEUE

    A moral dilemma indeed

    Stop prevaricating.

    Pack a small bag, man up and get in THE QUEUE.

    You probably have about 2 hours before your chance is gone forever.
    You’re right. I’m going to do my duty, get my lazy arse in gear, get down to that bloody queue, then completely skip it with my Press Card, see the Queen at my leisure, then head out for lunch with a friend

    That’s my duty, as a loyal member of His Majesty’s Press, Knapper’s Gazette branch
    Of course you fucking will. You’d be daft not to. If I were in your position and wanted to go I’d do the same.

    But you will not be allowed to don the mantle of suffering and perseverance that the 14 hour pilgrimage would bestow, a holy cleansing of your soul, a glorious, public affirmation of your diamond hard unquenchable patriotism and fealty to our glorious ex-monarch.

    You’ll just look like a cynical chancer. Go for it!
    You are not going to see the Queen, she is dead and hidden in a box. The queue is the event, a mass participation event marking a remarkable reign and a remarkable public servant. Those who take part in it will remember it for the rest of their lives. You either participate or you don't. If you just want to see it switch on the TV.
  • Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Whether you jumped the queue or not is going to have a bearing on how people view celebrities over the coming weeks. David Beckham has gone up in people’s estimation. Holly and Phil down. Though how Phil had that much further to fall astonishes me.
    https://twitter.com/DavidRoe92/status/1571420149244203009

    I think Holly and Phil have displayed great patriotism. On every great state occasion that brings the country together there always needs to be villains at who scorn and fury can be directed. The two of them have stepped up when people like David Beckham and Susanna Reid wouldn't.

    I really don't give a toss about either the This Morning presenters or the "THEY JUMPED THE QUEUE" hysteria. Reports have the length of the thing as being 14 ours or so - do TV presenters on every day actually have time to do the queue?
    Also, they didn’t skip the queue. Turns out accredited journalists with a press card get special access. Which makes sense, otherwise how do the media cover the story? How do they do their job?

    ITV should simply admit this, and tell the public to vent their ire on the organisers, who made these quite sensible rules
    However, it is a little short sighted, and a missed opportunity, as they would have been legends if they'd done the full stint.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,196

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    Easy to say she's unsuited but with nothing to back it up.
    Must be the most ironic pot and kettle post ever. You constantly post snide negative posts about everything and have never said anything constructive. As you have been challenged by several before why don't you get off your arse and actually write a thread rather than snipping all the time.
    My stalker is back ...why don't you just take a hike. in any event all the snide comments are coming from the Anti Truss brigade.
    Why don't you, just for once, post something positive or constructive. You really do come over as someone who is very bitter.
    Take a look in the mirror chummy. You don't like what I post , then ignore it. I shall cetainly ignore you from on. Have a good day.
    Look in the mirror? Just look at my posts. The first ones I wrote today were complimentary of the lying in state and the public attending it and the tv coverage. Other than ones for comedic effect I write constructive posts, arguing a point. I have liked several posts today. Some for people I don't agree with, but because they have produced well constructive arguments.

    You just post bile after bile without any content.

    If you don't like what you see here then argue against it, write a header or do something constructive. Anything. Even post a joke, but do something worthwhile.

    Otherwise just sod off with your negativity.
    I will post what I like. You are not the sole arbiter. If you don't like what I post ignore it.
    Good advice. I already do.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 44,915
    I will always be the PB-er who SKIPPED THE QUEUE

    Gulp
  • Scott_xP said:

    In your world of course it a snub

    In the real World it's a snub
    It would only be a snub if they were not having a bilateral meeting in New York in 3 days time

    A snub is when the meeting does not take place
    No, it is a snub. The question is, why? Did Biden wish to make it clear that he is in charge, that the United States is the senior partner, that any meeting will take place on his terms? Is there someone else Biden prefers to meet in London?
    Yes, that could be a part of it. It is (just) possible that his team was upset at being put on the second day, behind Australia and NZ (and one other). I don't think that that was a deliberate snub by Truss's team either, probably more down to the others arriving earlier, but it was interesting - Uncle Sam likes to be first in line.
  • A lot of my kids' friends are going to be dressing up to watch tomorrow's funeral and having a cream tea while it takes place. I am not sure what I make of it. But I think it's a really interesting Gen Z response. What's clear is that current events are not passing them by.

    I hope there will be marmalade sandwiches.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,196
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Whether you jumped the queue or not is going to have a bearing on how people view celebrities over the coming weeks. David Beckham has gone up in people’s estimation. Holly and Phil down. Though how Phil had that much further to fall astonishes me.
    https://twitter.com/DavidRoe92/status/1571420149244203009

    I think Holly and Phil have displayed great patriotism. On every great state occasion that brings the country together there always needs to be villains at who scorn and fury can be directed. The two of them have stepped up when people like David Beckham and Susanna Reid wouldn't.

    I really don't give a toss about either the This Morning presenters or the "THEY JUMPED THE QUEUE" hysteria. Reports have the length of the thing as being 14 ours or so - do TV presenters on every day actually have time to do the queue?
    Also, they didn’t skip the queue. Turns out accredited journalists with a press card get special access. Which makes sense, otherwise how do the media cover the story? How do they do their job?

    ITV should simply admit this, and tell the public to vent their ire on the organisers, who made these quite sensible rules
    Maybe Knox could lend you his press pass.
  • DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I have just discovered that accredited journalists can skip THE QUEUE

    A moral dilemma indeed

    Stop prevaricating.

    Pack a small bag, man up and get in THE QUEUE.

    You probably have about 2 hours before your chance is gone forever.
    You’re right. I’m going to do my duty, get my lazy arse in gear, get down to that bloody queue, then completely skip it with my Press Card, see the Queen at my leisure, then head out for lunch with a friend

    That’s my duty, as a loyal member of His Majesty’s Press, Knapper’s Gazette branch
    Of course you fucking will. You’d be daft not to. If I were in your position and wanted to go I’d do the same.

    But you will not be allowed to don the mantle of suffering and perseverance that the 14 hour pilgrimage would bestow, a holy cleansing of your soul, a glorious, public affirmation of your diamond hard unquenchable patriotism and fealty to our glorious ex-monarch.

    You’ll just look like a cynical chancer. Go for it!
    You are not going to see the Queen, she is dead and hidden in a box. The queue is the event, a mass participation event marking a remarkable reign and a remarkable public servant. Those who take part in it will remember it for the rest of their lives. You either participate or you don't. If you just want to see it switch on the TV.
    You don't understand. You do see The Queen. Everyone who files past sees The Queen, and gets those few precious seconds with her.

    You might not see her face with your naked eyes but, believe me, you definitely penetrate through into that box and see her.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,003
    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Alleged criminal conspiracy aside, Fullbrook faces Qs:

    Why was he working for millionaire Venezuelan — foreign national — in the US?

    Did he know his client was a long time fugitive from his home country?

    Why did he work w/disgraced ex-FBI agent convicted of crimes in the role?


    https://twitter.com/gabriel_pogrund/status/1571183835609534466

    Another one of those Sunday Times scoops.

    In which they translate 'interviewed as a witness' in their article into "involved in an alleged conspiracy" in the couple of paras the public can see.
    FPT - The FBI have to jump through a lot of hoops to interview someone in a foreign jurisdiction. It's not done on a whim or just in case or as a filler. So it's pretty serious for it to have reached this stage.

    Whether it's because he is under suspicion or simply as a witness who can say.
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    It is curious he did not go for it. Front line politicians cannot be said to be unambitious, and his star had never been higher, it was his moment to seize if he wanted it. And yet, nothing.
    I can quite see why he did not want it -

    1. The in-tray is awful and a lot of the issues are not ones where he necessarily has much to say or offer. Perhaps he realised it would be too much for him, a mark of a wise man I'd have thought.
    2. Family reasons.
    3. He likes being at Defence and thinks it really important given what Putin is up to.
    4. His ultimate ambitions lie elsewhere.

    The reason his star seemed to shine is because he seemed decent and was not an obvious crook or liar. But while a welcome change other talents are also needed for a top job.
  • kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    Easy to say she's unsuited but with nothing to back it up.
    Must be the most ironic pot and kettle post ever. You constantly post snide negative posts about everything and have never said anything constructive. As you have been challenged by several before why don't you get off your arse and actually write a thread rather than snipping all the time.
    My stalker is back ...why don't you just take a hike. in any event all the snide comments are coming from the Anti Truss brigade.
    Why don't you, just for once, post something positive or constructive. You really do come over as someone who is very bitter.
    Take a look in the mirror chummy. You don't like what I post , then ignore it. I shall cetainly ignore you from on. Have a good day.
    Look in the mirror? Just look at my posts. The first ones I wrote today were complimentary of the lying in state and the public attending it and the tv coverage. Other than ones for comedic effect I write constructive posts, arguing a point. I have liked several posts today. Some for people I don't agree with, but because they have produced well constructive arguments.

    You just post bile after bile without any content.

    If you don't like what you see here then argue against it, write a header or do something constructive. Anything. Even post a joke, but do something worthwhile.

    Otherwise just sod off with your negativity.
    I will post what I like. You are not the sole arbiter. If you don't like what I post ignore it.
    Good advice. I already do.
    Sensible fellow. There are many disparate views on on PB. I now ignore all the bile that is posted about Truss which seems to.pass on here as accepted. She has been dismissed as PM when she has barely been in office for 10 days or so. She may turn out as awful but the jury is still out, but not on PB it would seem.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,196
    Leon said:

    I will always be the PB-er who SKIPPED THE QUEUE

    Gulp

    We like entitlement here, you'll be fine.

    Anyway you haven't put your press pass where your mouth is yet. Jump to it, shake a leg!

    We expect detailed reporting including the names of entitled champagne socialists using their Fast-track Disneyland pass alongside you. Consider it a public service.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,381

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I have just discovered that accredited journalists can skip THE QUEUE

    A moral dilemma indeed

    Stop prevaricating.

    Pack a small bag, man up and get in THE QUEUE.

    You probably have about 2 hours before your chance is gone forever.
    You’re right. I’m going to do my duty, get my lazy arse in gear, get down to that bloody queue, then completely skip it with my Press Card, see the Queen at my leisure, then head out for lunch with a friend

    That’s my duty, as a loyal member of His Majesty’s Press, Knapper’s Gazette branch
    Of course you fucking will. You’d be daft not to. If I were in your position and wanted to go I’d do the same.

    But you will not be allowed to don the mantle of suffering and perseverance that the 14 hour pilgrimage would bestow, a holy cleansing of your soul, a glorious, public affirmation of your diamond hard unquenchable patriotism and fealty to our glorious ex-monarch.

    You’ll just look like a cynical chancer. Go for it!
    You are not going to see the Queen, she is dead and hidden in a box. The queue is the event, a mass participation event marking a remarkable reign and a remarkable public servant. Those who take part in it will remember it for the rest of their lives. You either participate or you don't. If you just want to see it switch on the TV.
    You don't understand. You do see The Queen. Everyone who files past sees The Queen, and gets those few precious seconds with her.

    You might not see her face with your naked eyes but, believe me, you definitely penetrate through into that box and see her.
    I am envious of your experience which was clearly almost spiritual. I went to the Kingsway in Dundee to see the cortege go by. It was also a mass participation event, albeit on a vastly smaller scale. A pale shadow of your experience. My clerk was one of those organising the honour guard in St Giles. She was there 11 hours a day. It was exhausting but exhilarating. I wish I had gone there but work did not alllow. I will regret that.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    Easy to say she's unsuited but with nothing to back it up.
    Must be the most ironic pot and kettle post ever. You constantly post snide negative posts about everything and have never said anything constructive. As you have been challenged by several before why don't you get off your arse and actually write a thread rather than snipping all the time.
    My stalker is back ...why don't you just take a hike. in any event all the snide comments are coming from the Anti Truss brigade.
    Why don't you, just for once, post something positive or constructive. You really do come over as someone who is very bitter.
    Take a look in the mirror chummy. You don't like what I post , then ignore it. I shall cetainly ignore you from on. Have a good day.
    Look in the mirror? Just look at my posts. The first ones I wrote today were complimentary of the lying in state and the public attending it and the tv coverage. Other than ones for comedic effect I write constructive posts, arguing a point. I have liked several posts today. Some for people I don't agree with, but because they have produced well constructive arguments.

    You just post bile after bile without any content.

    If you don't like what you see here then argue against it, write a header or do something constructive. Anything. Even post a joke, but do something worthwhile.

    Otherwise just sod off with your negativity.
    I will post what I like. You are not the sole arbiter. If you don't like what I post ignore it.
    Good advice. I already do.
    Sensible fellow. There are many disparate views on on PB. I now ignore all the bile that is posted about Truss which seems to.pass on here as accepted. She has been dismissed as PM when she has barely been in office for 10 days or so. She may turn out as awful but the jury is still out, but not on PB it would seem.
    She wasn't generated by Dall-E 2 10 days ago, or sprang fully armed from Graham Brady's thigh. Some of us have had her card marked for years. As well as having - not sure if I mentioned this - £10 on her at 100/1 next PM.
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651

    When the period of national hysteria ends on Monday, what will the press find to fill all that space?

    You have three times on this thread referred to national hysteria. I've not seen anything to characterise as hysterical, which term could fairly describe the reaction to Princess Diana's death. These past few days, the public's reaction has been overwhelmingly of reflection and appreciation.
    Hysteria? There’s been a very small amount of quiet tears. And a lot of people standing quietly for hours, for various things.

    It reminds me of the first countryside march. Totally peaceful, quiet. The joke that they tidied up Hyde Park was pretty much true.

    A couple of university acquaintances were there. Black Bloc types. They were horrified, angered… and terrified. To them, “middle class” people having a quiet demo was Fascism… “I felt the menace when they looked at me” was one comment. This from a guy who thought that smashing shop windows was valuable social commentary.

    It was simply that a large protest “the other way” wasn’t in their world view - riots are ok when they are from your side. Viscous little dreams of beating up your opponents are cool. The “others” assembling in large numbers - END TIMES!

    For republicans if a certain bent, the current events are wrong, EVUL! IMMORAL! FASCISM!

    Meanwhile everyone else has a cup of tea.

    The attitude expressed by radical leftwingers towards the Tory party on horseback's pro-foxhunting marches seems to have made a big effect on you, because you keep referring to it, but it's not at all to their discredit. It doesn't show them to be hypocrites at all. All it shows is that they were a bit naive where the right wing, its ability to mobilise its social base, and its willingness to use physical force were concerned. (At least some on the radical left - me for example - are not naive about that, but we are few and far between.) "I felt the menace when they looked back at me" - whoever said that was aware and learning, which is more than can be said about a lot of people. Perhaps he or she hadn't read much about May 1968 in Paris. The political right wing were kind of nowhere for a few days. It was as if they'd disappeared. Then WHAM they called out 1 million people in a huge march in Paris, and made it absolutely clear they were willing to fight a civil war.

    My feeling at the time of the pro-foxhunting marches, which you call "countryside" marches as if everyone living in the countryside supports foxhunting which is not true, was that it would not be at all surprising if on a subsequent march they brought guns.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,196

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    Easy to say she's unsuited but with nothing to back it up.
    Must be the most ironic pot and kettle post ever. You constantly post snide negative posts about everything and have never said anything constructive. As you have been challenged by several before why don't you get off your arse and actually write a thread rather than snipping all the time.
    My stalker is back ...why don't you just take a hike. in any event all the snide comments are coming from the Anti Truss brigade.
    Why don't you, just for once, post something positive or constructive. You really do come over as someone who is very bitter.
    Take a look in the mirror chummy. You don't like what I post , then ignore it. I shall cetainly ignore you from on. Have a good day.
    Look in the mirror? Just look at my posts. The first ones I wrote today were complimentary of the lying in state and the public attending it and the tv coverage. Other than ones for comedic effect I write constructive posts, arguing a point. I have liked several posts today. Some for people I don't agree with, but because they have produced well constructive arguments.

    You just post bile after bile without any content.

    If you don't like what you see here then argue against it, write a header or do something constructive. Anything. Even post a joke, but do something worthwhile.

    Otherwise just sod off with your negativity.
    I will post what I like. You are not the sole arbiter. If you don't like what I post ignore it.
    Good advice. I already do.
    Sensible fellow. There are many disparate views on on PB. I now ignore all the bile that is posted about Truss which seems to.pass on here as accepted. She has been dismissed as PM when she has barely been in office for 10 days or so. She may turn out as awful but the jury is still out, but not on PB it would seem.
    The problem here is it is not just Centrist scallywags like me criticising her, it is loyal, lifelong Conservatives, including Johnsonians.

    Please ignore, and I will do likewise.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,737
    edited September 2022
    Leon said:

    Re; MexicanPete's point on Poles either going up into senior positions or returning home, that is interesting. If the average family really is now 20% poorer than our neighbouring countries, that would indeed start to bring them close to some of the slightly better East European living standards, as the FT article says.


    I read the story with one raised eyebrow. JB Murdoch is a good journalist so I’m willing to believe him, yet the data doesn’t quite pass the smell test

    I’ve just come from southern Spain and Portugal which have a similar GDP per capita to parts of
    Eastern Europe. Landing in Gatwick it is immediately obvious the UK is much richer (even taking into account the fact I landed in prosperous SE England)

    The graphs apparently use GDP by PPP, which might be a confounding factor here


    There's nothing wrong with using PPP data.

    However, I'm not convinced the actual data actually backed up the point he was making. The charts showed that over the course of twenty years, the median British household saw their income rise in real terms, from $30,000 to $44,000 ie a rise of 47% . That is actually rather better than I would have expected.

    The richest ten per cent certainly did better than that (the rise was 60%) . But, only the poorest 5% and the richest 3% saw stagnation in living standards over that period.

    We shouldn't be upset that much of Eastern Europe has seen extraordinary rises in living standards over that period. Eastern Europe is getting to the point where it ought to have been, had they not had to endure 50 years of first Nazism, then communism. Slovenia, the Baltic States, Poland, Czechia, and Slovakia, simply *ought* to be very rich countries, and now they're reaching their proper place.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,504

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    Easy to say she's unsuited but with nothing to back it up.
    Must be the most ironic pot and kettle post ever. You constantly post snide negative posts about everything and have never said anything constructive. As you have been challenged by several before why don't you get off your arse and actually write a thread rather than snipping all the time.
    My stalker is back ...why don't you just take a hike. in any event all the snide comments are coming from the Anti Truss brigade.
    Why don't you, just for once, post something positive or constructive. You really do come over as someone who is very bitter.
    Take a look in the mirror chummy. You don't like what I post , then ignore it. I shall cetainly ignore you from on. Have a good day.
    Look in the mirror? Just look at my posts. The first ones I wrote today were complimentary of the lying in state and the public attending it and the tv coverage. Other than ones for comedic effect I write constructive posts, arguing a point. I have liked several posts today. Some for people I don't agree with, but because they have produced well constructive arguments.

    You just post bile after bile without any content.

    If you don't like what you see here then argue against it, write a header or do something constructive. Anything. Even post a joke, but do something worthwhile.

    Otherwise just sod off with your negativity.
    I will post what I like. You are not the sole arbiter. If you don't like what I post ignore it.
    Good advice. I already do.
    Sensible fellow. There are many disparate views on on PB. I now ignore all the bile that is posted about Truss which seems to.pass on here as accepted. She has been dismissed as PM when she has barely been in office for 10 days or so. She may turn out as awful but the jury is still out, but not on PB it would seem.
    History of her work elsewhere shows she isn’t much good.

    The removal of Tom Scholar also show that she holds a grudge and can be vindictive
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Dynamo said:

    When the period of national hysteria ends on Monday, what will the press find to fill all that space?

    You have three times on this thread referred to national hysteria. I've not seen anything to characterise as hysterical, which term could fairly describe the reaction to Princess Diana's death. These past few days, the public's reaction has been overwhelmingly of reflection and appreciation.
    Hysteria? There’s been a very small amount of quiet tears. And a lot of people standing quietly for hours, for various things.

    It reminds me of the first countryside march. Totally peaceful, quiet. The joke that they tidied up Hyde Park was pretty much true.

    A couple of university acquaintances were there. Black Bloc types. They were horrified, angered… and terrified. To them, “middle class” people having a quiet demo was Fascism… “I felt the menace when they looked at me” was one comment. This from a guy who thought that smashing shop windows was valuable social commentary.

    It was simply that a large protest “the other way” wasn’t in their world view - riots are ok when they are from your side. Viscous little dreams of beating up your opponents are cool. The “others” assembling in large numbers - END TIMES!

    For republicans if a certain bent, the current events are wrong, EVUL! IMMORAL! FASCISM!

    Meanwhile everyone else has a cup of tea.

    The attitude expressed by radical leftwingers towards the Tory party on horseback's pro-foxhunting marches seems to have made a big effect on you, because you keep referring to it, but it's not at all to their discredit. It doesn't show them to be hypocrites at all. All it shows is that they were a bit naive where the right wing, its ability to mobilise its social base, and its willingness to use physical force were concerned. (At least some on the radical left - me for example - are not naive about that, but we are few and far between.) "I felt the menace when they looked back at me" - whoever said that was aware and learning, which is more than can be said about a lot of people. Perhaps he or she hadn't read much about May 1968 in Paris. The political right wing were kind of nowhere for a few days. It was as if they'd disappeared. Then WHAM they called out 1 million people in a huge march in Paris, and made it absolutely clear they were willing to fight a civil war.

    My feeling at the time of the pro-foxhunting marches, which you call "countryside" marches as if everyone living in the countryside supports foxhunting which is not true, was that it would not be at all surprising if on a subsequent march they brought guns.
    Were you there?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 44,915
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Re; MexicanPete's point on Poles either going up into senior positions or returning home, that is interesting. If the average family really is now 20% poorer than our neighbouring countries, that would indeed start to bring them close to some of the slightly better East European living standards, as the FT article says.


    I read the story with one raised eyebrow. JB Murdoch is a good journalist so I’m willing to believe him, yet the data doesn’t quite pass the smell test

    I’ve just come from southern Spain and Portugal which have a similar GDP per capita to parts of
    Eastern Europe. Landing in Gatwick it is immediately obvious the UK is much richer (even taking into account the fact I landed in prosperous SE England)

    The graphs apparently use GDP by PPP, which might be a confounding factor here


    There's nothing wrong with using PPP data.

    However, I'm not convinced the actual data actually backed up the point he was making. The charts showed that over the course of twenty years, the median British household saw their income rise in real terms, from $30,000 to $44,000 ie a rise of 47% . That is actually rather better than I would have expected.

    The richest ten per cent certainly did better than that (the rise was 60%) . But, only the poorest 5% and the richest 3% saw stagnation in living standards over that period.

    We shouldn't be upset that much of Eastern Europe has seen extraordinary rises in living standards over that period. Eastern Europe is getting to the point where it ought to have been, had they not had to endure 50 years of first Nazism, then communism. Slovenia, the Baltic States, Poland, Czechia, and Slovakia, simply *ought* to be very rich countries, and now they're reaching their proper place.
    Yes

    Tho I do believe one has to be careful with PPP, it can mislead - but so can nominal GDP in a different way

    Slovenia in particular should definitely be a rich society, small, sunny, fertile, Alpine, next to Austria and Switzerland and the richest bit of Italy. Small highly educated population, low immigration, low population density, no post industrial blight

    It should be as rich as its rich neighbours and now - belatedly - it is getting there
  • MattWMattW Posts: 17,732
    edited September 2022
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    What evidence is there that the nation actually wants a pragmatic unifier?

    I get that Twitter isn't Britain but I don't see much evidence of that here either let alone Twitter etc
    My hunch is that it’s going to feel weird without HM and there will be a period of adjustment, before the UK figures out what comes next. A reassuring presence in no10 might have hit the spot. Just a hunch.
    I'd agree with that, I think. I'd add the caveat that we don't currently know how LT is going to turn out - she's currently getting a break from most politics to work out how she will manage things. Presumably backroom work going on aplenty.

    Has there been anything except the Energy Supply / Market things, plus lots of attempts from all directions to attach labels?

    I think the Energy stuff has - so far - been competent in policy and politics. I'm not encouraged by the tax-cutting emphasis and I think she's risking a bigger political downside than is necessary, when one thing we need is boosts to both Universal Credit (reversing the impact of Osborne's multiyear cash-terms freeze would be good), and basic State Pensions.

    I'd currently say about 25% hopeful, 75% doubtful.

    We also need to see what happens with the NI relationship with the EU, and foreign trade - she needs to deliver on CPTPP, and a future direction for the Commonwealth alongside KCIII.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,768
    That GrieveWatch Twitter account is fucking mint.


  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,471
    edited September 2022
    Dynamo said:

    When the period of national hysteria ends on Monday, what will the press find to fill all that space?

    You have three times on this thread referred to national hysteria. I've not seen anything to characterise as hysterical, which term could fairly describe the reaction to Princess Diana's death. These past few days, the public's reaction has been overwhelmingly of reflection and appreciation.
    Hysteria? There’s been a very small amount of quiet tears. And a lot of people standing quietly for hours, for various things.

    It reminds me of the first countryside march. Totally peaceful, quiet. The joke that they tidied up Hyde Park was pretty much true.

    A couple of university acquaintances were there. Black Bloc types. They were horrified, angered… and terrified. To them, “middle class” people having a quiet demo was Fascism… “I felt the menace when they looked at me” was one comment. This from a guy who thought that smashing shop windows was valuable social commentary.

    It was simply that a large protest “the other way” wasn’t in their world view - riots are ok when they are from your side. Viscous little dreams of beating up your opponents are cool. The “others” assembling in large numbers - END TIMES!

    For republicans if a certain bent, the current events are wrong, EVUL! IMMORAL! FASCISM!

    Meanwhile everyone else has a cup of tea.

    The attitude expressed by radical leftwingers towards the Tory party on horseback's pro-foxhunting marches seems to have made a big effect on you, because you keep referring to it, but it's not at all to their discredit. It doesn't show them to be hypocrites at all. All it shows is that they were a bit naive where the right wing, its ability to mobilise its social base, and its willingness to use physical force were concerned. (At least some on the radical left - me for example - are not naive about that, but we are few and far between.) "I felt the menace when they looked back at me" - whoever said that was aware and learning, which is more than can be said about a lot of people. Perhaps he or she hadn't read much about May 1968 in Paris. The political right wing were kind of nowhere for a few days. It was as if they'd disappeared. Then WHAM they called out 1 million people in a huge march in Paris, and made it absolutely clear they were willing to fight a civil war.

    My feeling at the time of the pro-foxhunting marches, which you call "countryside" marches as if everyone living in the countryside supports foxhunting which is not true, was that it would not be at all surprising if on a subsequent march they brought guns.
    There's a some truth in Dynamo's views on this one, as he observed it from several thousand miles away.

    The Countryside march was certainly quiet and relatively peaceful, but I personally also thought it contained a large amount of element of threat, and also a sense of aggressively trying to monopolise the national identity, as much as the most intolerant leftwingers.

    There were also some very large landed and country business interests funding that march, somewhat astroturfing as the organised Right is prone to, in the UK, and as with Brexit. I remember the bitter resentment of it from an old friend in the countryside when I lived there ; the countryside has in fact always been split right almost exactly right down the middle on hunting and the right of lairds to trample everyone's fields, as I saw when I lived there.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,101
    Leon said:

    I will always be the PB-er who SKIPPED THE QUEUE

    Gulp

    I know consistency is overrated, but can I refer you to almost everything you have written in the past 5 days?
    You can't skip The Queue.
    Unless of course, someone offers you TRAVEL or SEX.
    But The Queue is travel - albeit extremely slow travel. As always, the journey is as important as the destination.
    And as for sex - who knows what new friends you'll make in The Queue?

    Of course, if it starts to rain, that changes things completely.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,399
    eek said:

    History of her work elsewhere shows she isn’t much good.

    The removal of Tom Scholar also show that she holds a grudge and can be vindictive

    “My understanding is that Kwarteng had doubts about sacking Scholar, but carried out the dirty work for Truss,” says the well-informed @williamkeegan https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/18/kwarteng-follows-dirty-work-at-treasury-with-bonus-cap-farce
  • vinovino Posts: 151

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss is unsuited to this moment and the times to come, the nation wants a pragmatic unifier, where her dna is intrinsically ideological and divisively partisan.

    Not her fault, but she became out-of-date two days into the job. If you don’t believe me, just imagine if Ben Wallace we’re leader now.

    Easy to say she's unsuited but with nothing to back it up.
    Must be the most ironic pot and kettle post ever. You constantly post snide negative posts about everything and have never said anything constructive. As you have been challenged by several before why don't you get off your arse and actually write a thread rather than snipping all the time.
    My stalker is back ...why don't you just take a hike. in any event all the snide comments are coming from the Anti Truss brigade.
    Why don't you, just for once, post something positive or constructive. You really do come over as someone who is very bitter.
    Take a look in the mirror chummy. You don't like what I post , then ignore it. I shall cetainly ignore you from on. Have a good day.
    Look in the mirror? Just look at my posts. The first ones I wrote today were complimentary of the lying in state and the public attending it and the tv coverage. Other than ones for comedic effect I write constructive posts, arguing a point. I have liked several posts today. Some for people I don't agree with, but because they have produced well constructive arguments.

    You just post bile after bile without any content.

    If you don't like what you see here then argue against it, write a header or do something constructive. Anything. Even post a joke, but do something worthwhile.

    Otherwise just sod off with your negativity.
    I will post what I like. You are not the sole arbiter. If you don't like what I post ignore it.
    Good advice. I already do.
    Sensible fellow. There are many disparate views on on PB. I now ignore all the bile that is posted about Truss which seems to.pass on here as accepted. She has been dismissed as PM when she has barely been in office for 10 days or so. She may turn out as awful but the jury is still out, but not on PB it would seem.
    From Britain Elects

    15/9 Rumworth (Bolton) council by-election result:

    CON: 55.0% (+44.1)
    LAB: 37.6% (-35.2)
    GRN: 5.3% (-2.6)
    LDEM: 1.2% (-0.8)
    REF: 0.8% (+0.8)

    No UKIP (-6.3) as prev.

    Conservative gain




    15/9 Bolney (Mid Sussex) council by-election result:

    CON: 50.6% (+1.2)
    LDEM: 27.4% (+8.3)
    LAB: 11.1% (+4.6)
    MRLP: 5.0% (+5.0)
    GRN: 4.7% (-8.8)
    IND: 1.2% (+1.2)

    Votes cast: 595

    Conservative HOLD.

    Liz Truss bounce
  • LeonLeon Posts: 44,915
    Dura_Ace said:

    That GrieveWatch Twitter account is fucking mint.


    M6 Stafford Services

    Poignant


  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,777
    A dyslexic friend of mine was disappointed when he saw the cortege. Mind you, he doesn't really like green vegetables.
  • Leon said:

    I will always be the PB-er who SKIPPED THE QUEUE

    Gulp

    Possibly the most unBritish thing you can do.
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I have just discovered that accredited journalists can skip THE QUEUE

    A moral dilemma indeed

    Stop prevaricating.

    Pack a small bag, man up and get in THE QUEUE.

    You probably have about 2 hours before your chance is gone forever.
    You’re right. I’m going to do my duty, get my lazy arse in gear, get down to that bloody queue, then completely skip it with my Press Card, see the Queen at my leisure, then head out for lunch with a friend

    That’s my duty, as a loyal member of His Majesty’s Press, Knapper’s Gazette branch
    Of course you fucking will. You’d be daft not to. If I were in your position and wanted to go I’d do the same.

    But you will not be allowed to don the mantle of suffering and perseverance that the 14 hour pilgrimage would bestow, a holy cleansing of your soul, a glorious, public affirmation of your diamond hard unquenchable patriotism and fealty to our glorious ex-monarch.

    You’ll just look like a cynical chancer. Go for it!
    You are not going to see the Queen, she is dead and hidden in a box. The queue is the event, a mass participation event marking a remarkable reign and a remarkable public servant. Those who take part in it will remember it for the rest of their lives. You either participate or you don't. If you just want to see it switch on the TV.
    You don't understand. You do see The Queen. Everyone who files past sees The Queen, and gets those few precious seconds with her.

    You might not see her face with your naked eyes but, believe me, you definitely penetrate through into that box and see her.
    I am envious of your experience which was clearly almost spiritual. I went to the Kingsway in Dundee to see the cortege go by. It was also a mass participation event, albeit on a vastly smaller scale. A pale shadow of your experience. My clerk was one of those organising the honour guard in St Giles. She was there 11 hours a day. It was exhausting but exhilarating. I wish I had gone there but work did not alllow. I will regret that.
    You did what you could, and the memory you obtained from viewing the cortege is more than most managed and will last with you a lifetime.

    Don't regret it.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Dynamo said:

    When the period of national hysteria ends on Monday, what will the press find to fill all that space?

    You have three times on this thread referred to national hysteria. I've not seen anything to characterise as hysterical, which term could fairly describe the reaction to Princess Diana's death. These past few days, the public's reaction has been overwhelmingly of reflection and appreciation.
    Hysteria? There’s been a very small amount of quiet tears. And a lot of people standing quietly for hours, for various things.

    It reminds me of the first countryside march. Totally peaceful, quiet. The joke that they tidied up Hyde Park was pretty much true.

    A couple of university acquaintances were there. Black Bloc types. They were horrified, angered… and terrified. To them, “middle class” people having a quiet demo was Fascism… “I felt the menace when they looked at me” was one comment. This from a guy who thought that smashing shop windows was valuable social commentary.

    It was simply that a large protest “the other way” wasn’t in their world view - riots are ok when they are from your side. Viscous little dreams of beating up your opponents are cool. The “others” assembling in large numbers - END TIMES!

    For republicans if a certain bent, the current events are wrong, EVUL! IMMORAL! FASCISM!

    Meanwhile everyone else has a cup of tea.

    The attitude expressed by radical leftwingers towards the Tory party on horseback's pro-foxhunting marches seems to have made a big effect on you, because you keep referring to it, but it's not at all to their discredit. It doesn't show them to be hypocrites at all. All it shows is that they were a bit naive where the right wing, its ability to mobilise its social base, and its willingness to use physical force were concerned. (At least some on the radical left - me for example - are not naive about that, but we are few and far between.) "I felt the menace when they looked back at me" - whoever said that was aware and learning, which is more than can be said about a lot of people. Perhaps he or she hadn't read much about May 1968 in Paris. The political right wing were kind of nowhere for a few days. It was as if they'd disappeared. Then WHAM they called out 1 million people in a huge march in Paris, and made it absolutely clear they were willing to fight a civil war.

    My feeling at the time of the pro-foxhunting marches, which you call "countryside" marches as if everyone living in the countryside supports foxhunting which is not true, was that it would not be at all surprising if on a subsequent march they brought guns.
    There's a gran of truth in Dynamo's views on this one, as he observed it from several thousand miles away.

    The Countryside march was certainly quiet and relatively peaceful, but I personally also thought it contained a large amount of element of threat, and also a sense of aggressively trying to monopolise the national identity as much as the most ardent leftwingers. There were some very large landed and country business interests funding that march, somewhat astroturfing as the organised Right is prone to, in this country, and as with Brexit. I remember the bitter resentment of it from an old friend in the countryside when I lived there ; the countryside has in fact always been split right down the middle on hunting and the right of the lairds to trample their fields, from what I saw when I lived there.
    " I personally also thought it contained a large amount of element of threat..." is as interesting a statement as "I personally thought it was made up of lizards from the 4th planet out in the Trappist-1 system, dressed up as humans in Barbours." Objective evidence is required.
This discussion has been closed.