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Punters give her a 41% chance of being PM after next election – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options

    Every PM has to deVilhave one certifiable loon to pander to that portion of their base. Hopefully Truss limits it to just JRM.

    Too late, she's already appointed Cruella DeVil and the halfwit from the Taxpayers Alliance.
    Not to mention the alt-right version of the two voiceover producers from “Toast of London” as joint heads of policy.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,139

    On what planet does Mogg as Business Sec help the £ or the markets or the bond market?

    Fecking bonkers.

    He's the perfect man for modern business - a man who prefers to not use a computer.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,078
    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    I don’t think anyone would argue with Ben Wallace at defence . As for the rest of the appointments they vary from meh to absolutely horrific !

    Boris' Cabinet looks heavyweight compared to this one so far, with the exceptions of Kwarteng, Wallace and maybe Coffey
    I’m surprised there’s nothing at all so far for Sunak supporters . This looks risky to say the least !
    Nor Mordaunt supporters either yet and Badenoch and Tugendhat still have not got a role either.

    So far every Cabinet member appointed endorsed Truss from the first round I think except Braverman who endorsed her when knocked out
    That's going some. She only got 50 votes.
    Half of them would make a Cabinet.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,139
    edited September 2022
    Delete
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited September 2022
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    kle4 said:

    nico679 said:

    Looks like the UK will soon be withdrawing from the ECHR if the odious Braverman has her way . Patel replaced by an equally nasty individual .

    It is surely the principal reason for her appointment. Stop the boats, get out of the ECHR, job done - it'll give endless chances for them to claim Labour want to give succour to criminals.
    Unfortunately the general public don’t seem to realize how many rights have been secured by the ECHR . I’m hoping there’s enough backbench Tories who would rebel and stop that from happening . It wasn’t in the manifesto , the HOL should not back down if legislation gets there. Can you imagine the optics at this time for the UK to be withdrawing from the ECHR .
    This is a good argument for leaving. These questions should be decided politically in the UK.
    So you trust the Tories to protect your rights ? Good luck with that .
    Translation: "I don't trust the UK to govern itself. It needs babysitting by continental Europeans."
    You’re missing the point . Governments can change , and rights could then be at the whim of those . Why don’t you read up on the rights won by Brits because of the ECHR .
    Name one.

    And name how the ECHR protected that right in Putin's Russia.

    Russia and Belarus are not signatories to the ECHR.

    Russia was until February 2022.

    And before that the court's judgments could not be enforced in Russia because the courts were not independent of the government. The ECHR only works in countries in which the rule of law applies.

    So the ECtHR does not work then. It isn't a guarantor.
    It is in a country where courts are independent of government influence.
    In a country where courts are independent of government influence, then why do you need it? Is it just the urge to standardise? You can't face the idea that 'rights' might be contingent?

    Yep, I am guilty of that. I believe the right to vote, to hold private property, to be protected from arbitrary imprisonment and so on are not contingent, but inalienable.

    But given that Parliament is sovereign and can repeal the HRA and leave the ECHR is there really any "protection"?

    It's a very fair point. The protection is being a member of the ECHR, but it only exists as a protection for as long as Parliament allows it. I guess that all it represents is an extra hoop for a government that sought to curtail human rights to jump through before it could do so. That's not great - but it's better than nothing.

    The government is incandescent with rage about those hoops - that shows they have an effect.
    OR the hoops are now ridiculous foreign obstacles that prevent the UK government of the day enacting the will of the people

    HMG’s Rwanda policy has been passed as lawful by all relevant British courts. It was the ECHR which stopped it

    Now you may hate the Rwanda policy but it is an attempt to solve a problem that the British people want solved, and with reason. It might not work but it is surely worth trying. If independent British judges say it does not infringe human rights then that’s good enough for me

    Get on with it
    My problem with the Rwanda policy is not whether it is lawful or not, I think it is the wrong approach regardless of whether it is lawful. I am happy to concede that things may be lawful even if I think they are shitty. If the UK parliament wants to pursue that policy in non-compliance with the ECHR, if indeed it is, then I would object to the policy regardless, I just wouldn't mention the legality.

    Same thing over the prorogation case, albeit that did not touch on ECHR issues - it was the wrong thing to do even if the court had ruled it was acceptable (frankly I was not entirely persuaded by the argument it was not legal).
    Which is entirely fair. The Rwanda policy is highly contentious, and I can understand the many objections. I believe, however, we are at a stage when we need pretty radical solutions, because this will only get worse

    But these are proper debates we need to have in a democratic country. What we don’t need is some ridiculous foreign court saying No a democratic British government can’t do something that the British people want, even though the British courts have said it is permissible. Enough
    There's this many uninhabited Shetland islands (about 100 by eyeball)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Uninhabited_islands_of_Shetland

    Now, if 1 in 10 is buildable on that is Alcatraz x 10. Build them. Anyone from between about the 40th parallels will be pleading to be repatriated after one winter. Put them in a holding centre in Wick while you are running up the Alcatrazes.

    Cheap, legal, effective.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,346

    I think Thérèse Coffey is a good appointment.

    I know nothing of her really, but I like the fact she is overweight and apparently a smoker and drinker. Rather like my GP friend who is fond of the booze and food and sports a spectacular gut.
    To an extent, she's only 10 years older than me but looks about 80 and I look about 30.

    That sort of lifestyle can kill you. I hope she sorts it out.
    I am slightly fond of her, if only for the look of suppressed fury she directed at Johnson during that end of days cabinet meeting.

    Her public image is not exactly compassionate, though.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,655
    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    I don’t think anyone would argue with Ben Wallace at defence . As for the rest of the appointments they vary from meh to absolutely horrific !

    Boris' Cabinet looks heavyweight compared to this one so far, with the exceptions of Kwarteng, Wallace and maybe Coffey
    Well, Coffey is undoubtedly a heavyweight...
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    Truss should have offered Sunak FS, and Sunak should have accepted.

    He has youngish kids. Not sure FS is a job for a family person.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,655
    edited September 2022

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    kle4 said:

    nico679 said:

    Looks like the UK will soon be withdrawing from the ECHR if the odious Braverman has her way . Patel replaced by an equally nasty individual .

    It is surely the principal reason for her appointment. Stop the boats, get out of the ECHR, job done - it'll give endless chances for them to claim Labour want to give succour to criminals.
    Unfortunately the general public don’t seem to realize how many rights have been secured by the ECHR . I’m hoping there’s enough backbench Tories who would rebel and stop that from happening . It wasn’t in the manifesto , the HOL should not back down if legislation gets there. Can you imagine the optics at this time for the UK to be withdrawing from the ECHR .
    This is a good argument for leaving. These questions should be decided politically in the UK.
    So you trust the Tories to protect your rights ? Good luck with that .
    Translation: "I don't trust the UK to govern itself. It needs babysitting by continental Europeans."
    You’re missing the point . Governments can change , and rights could then be at the whim of those . Why don’t you read up on the rights won by Brits because of the ECHR .
    Name one.

    And name how the ECHR protected that right in Putin's Russia.

    Russia and Belarus are not signatories to the ECHR.

    Russia was until February 2022.

    And before that the court's judgments could not be enforced in Russia because the courts were not independent of the government. The ECHR only works in countries in which the rule of law applies.

    So the ECtHR does not work then. It isn't a guarantor.
    It is in a country where courts are independent of government influence.
    In a country where courts are independent of government influence, then why do you need it? Is it just the urge to standardise? You can't face the idea that 'rights' might be contingent?

    Yep, I am guilty of that. I believe the right to vote, to hold private property, to be protected from arbitrary imprisonment and so on are not contingent, but inalienable.

    They're inalienable rights protected by British courts and the British Parliament not the ECHR.

    How did the ECHR protect "the right to vote, to hold private property, to be protected from arbitrary imprisonment and so on" in Russia until February?

    It didn't.

    UK courts will implement UK law. In the absence of the ECHR. a democratically elected UK government could remove the right to private property, limit the franchise and imprison people without trial all through simple acts of Parliament that the independent courts would be obliged apply. You are seemingly OK with that, I am not. We disagree.

    You seem to think the ECHR makes a difference when it demonstrably doesn't.

    I'm not OK with any government doing that but I put my faith more in our voters preventing that, than failed and nobbled courts.
    If I were a 1930s German jew I think I would rather the Convention applied than that it didn't. and I would continue to have that preference in the face of any number of shouty affirmations that IT WON'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE YOU REALISE?
    You don't need to look back to the 1930s anymore. Look at modern day Russia which was in the ECHR until February.
    A non answer, because even as a Russian dissident today I would prefer the country to be party to the convention.
    As a Russian dissident I would think the ECHR was an absolute failure. It is the League of Nations of Human Rights.
    But you're not a Russian dissident, are you?
  • Options
    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Cookie said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Prime minister Liz Truss in her first speech outside No.10:

    “Now is the time to tackle the issues that are holding Britain back.”

    https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1567183127134584838


    Brexit...

    Really? Still? To you, Brexit is still Britain's #1 issue?
    She didn't say #1, she said holding Britain back.

    Absofuckinglutely, Brexit is holding Britain back.
    Just think how much higher your own productivity would be if you accepted it and moved on.
    But hating Brexit and railing uselessly against it IS Scott's whole raison d'etre. If he didn't have that he would be a hollow, empty shell staring listlessly at a flickering screen, bereft of purpose or meaning.

    Don't take that way from him please. It would be too cruel.
    Very disappointing that you should denigrate in such terms a passionate political belief.
    Why not? There are many political beliefs worthy of being denigrated, some of which have very passionate advocates. It doesn't make them right nor worthy of respect.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,553

    Coffey has a PhD in Chemistry and works like a trooper. She'll be fine.

    Kwarteng is an ex Kings Scholar and a brainbox. He'll be fine.

    Suella Braverman is absolutely lovely in person but appears to have gone off the deep end in recent years. She'll almost certainly fail at Home Secretary, which is a horrible job anyway. For her political career to survive she has to stop the boats. I have no confidence.

    Kwasi is obviously very smart.
    On paper, he looks great.

    The problem is that he seems to have been a dud in BEIS.

    The fact that he has shagged the new PM (or vice versa) adds a interesting frisson perhaps not seems since James I.

    I’ll be watching with interest.
    Ruddy hell!

    Are we sure about this? Are OGH's legal team sure about this?
    I am concerned about the allegations and have asked for a link as I know Truss had affair but that was with Mark Field

    Not sure OGH would be impressed
    An allegation is a claim or assertion that someone has done something illegal or wrong,

    It is not against the law to have sex. This can't possibly be actionable.

    Whether it is true or not is another matter.
    Are you sure about that? Surely at the very least it is potentially a civil offence. What is to stop you accusing me of being Andrew RT Davies's bitch if I can't sue your arse?
  • Options
    GIN1138 said:

    Kemi goes in

    Kemi!!
    Culture?

    Shcools?

  • Options

    Coffey has a PhD in Chemistry and works like a trooper. She'll be fine.

    Kwarteng is an ex Kings Scholar and a brainbox. He'll be fine.

    Suella Braverman is absolutely lovely in person but appears to have gone off the deep end in recent years. She'll almost certainly fail at Home Secretary, which is a horrible job anyway. For her political career to survive she has to stop the boats. I have no confidence.

    Kwasi is obviously very smart.
    On paper, he looks great.

    The problem is that he seems to have been a dud in BEIS.

    The fact that he has shagged the new PM (or vice versa) adds a interesting frisson perhaps not seems since James I.

    I’ll be watching with interest.
    Ruddy hell!

    Are we sure about this? Are OGH's legal team sure about this?
    @Gardenwalker got his facts wrong (again!).

    Kwarteng had a fling with Amber Rudd, NOT Truss.

    Truss had her fling with Mark Field MP.

    Sources:
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/amber-gives-green-light-to-suitors-hhn02r537
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/nov/05/elizabeth-truss-deselection-affair
    I’m afraid you’ll find I’m correct in this matter.
  • Options
    Leon said:

    I like to listen to the political news through nonpartisan, nonpolitical sources like the hourly news bulletin on Magic Radio to hear how it sounds to people who don't read PB. It wasn't great for Truss to be honest - they played that soundbite about putting spades in the ground to lower utility bills, which is literally just random words assembled into a sentence. I am already tired of her voice, too. Obviously I am not an unbiased source on this matter, but I honestly think she is going to be shit. If Labour don't win the next election they should probably just pack up and go home.

    Be of good cheer, Labour will in in 2024. My side will be the depressed people

    Which, in a way, is only fair. The pendulum must swing, and much as I abhor Wokeness etc the Tories look desperately tired

    My big worry is that Truss is going to enact some quite radically conservative policies - some of them much needed - at exactly the wrong time: with only two years to make them work, and in the teeth of a terrible downturn. So they won’t work and voters will recoil, and we will get pathetic Woke socialist declinism for a decade and a half

    MEH

    Not just that.

    We can (but for the love of all that's sacred, let's not) quibble about whether Truss's top team is brilliant Rainbow Nation stuff, or the triumph of a globalised wealthy Private School + Oxbridge elite. But if they stuff up (and their strategy looks risky, to put it mildly), that could have a bad long-term effect on all of this stuff.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,139
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    kle4 said:

    nico679 said:

    Looks like the UK will soon be withdrawing from the ECHR if the odious Braverman has her way . Patel replaced by an equally nasty individual .

    It is surely the principal reason for her appointment. Stop the boats, get out of the ECHR, job done - it'll give endless chances for them to claim Labour want to give succour to criminals.
    Unfortunately the general public don’t seem to realize how many rights have been secured by the ECHR . I’m hoping there’s enough backbench Tories who would rebel and stop that from happening . It wasn’t in the manifesto , the HOL should not back down if legislation gets there. Can you imagine the optics at this time for the UK to be withdrawing from the ECHR .
    This is a good argument for leaving. These questions should be decided politically in the UK.
    So you trust the Tories to protect your rights ? Good luck with that .
    Translation: "I don't trust the UK to govern itself. It needs babysitting by continental Europeans."
    You’re missing the point . Governments can change , and rights could then be at the whim of those . Why don’t you read up on the rights won by Brits because of the ECHR .
    Name one.

    And name how the ECHR protected that right in Putin's Russia.

    Russia and Belarus are not signatories to the ECHR.

    Russia was until February 2022.

    And before that the court's judgments could not be enforced in Russia because the courts were not independent of the government. The ECHR only works in countries in which the rule of law applies.

    So the ECtHR does not work then. It isn't a guarantor.
    It is in a country where courts are independent of government influence.
    In a country where courts are independent of government influence, then why do you need it? Is it just the urge to standardise? You can't face the idea that 'rights' might be contingent?

    Yep, I am guilty of that. I believe the right to vote, to hold private property, to be protected from arbitrary imprisonment and so on are not contingent, but inalienable.

    But given that Parliament is sovereign and can repeal the HRA and leave the ECHR is there really any "protection"?

    It's a very fair point. The protection is being a member of the ECHR, but it only exists as a protection for as long as Parliament allows it. I guess that all it represents is an extra hoop for a government that sought to curtail human rights to jump through before it could do so. That's not great - but it's better than nothing.

    The government is incandescent with rage about those hoops - that shows they have an effect.
    OR the hoops are now ridiculous foreign obstacles that prevent the UK government of the day enacting the will of the people

    HMG’s Rwanda policy has been passed as lawful by all relevant British courts. It was the ECHR which stopped it

    Now you may hate the Rwanda policy but it is an attempt to solve a problem that the British people want solved, and with reason. It might not work but it is surely worth trying. If independent British judges say it does not infringe human rights then that’s good enough for me

    Get on with it
    My problem with the Rwanda policy is not whether it is lawful or not, I think it is the wrong approach regardless of whether it is lawful. I am happy to concede that things may be lawful even if I think they are shitty. If the UK parliament wants to pursue that policy in non-compliance with the ECHR, if indeed it is, then I would object to the policy regardless, I just wouldn't mention the legality.

    Same thing over the prorogation case, albeit that did not touch on ECHR issues - it was the wrong thing to do even if the court had ruled it was acceptable (frankly I was not entirely persuaded by the argument it was not legal).
    Which is entirely fair. The Rwanda policy is highly contentious, and I can understand the many objections. I believe, however, we are at a stage when we need pretty radical solutions, because this will only get worse

    But these are proper debates we need to have in a democratic country. What we don’t need is some ridiculous foreign court saying No a democratic British government can’t do something that the British people want, even though the British courts have said it is permissible. Enough
    There's this many uninhabited Shetland islands (about 100 by eyeball)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Uninhabited_islands_of_Shetland

    Now, if 1 in 10 is buildable on that is Alcatraz x 10. Build them. Anyone from between about the 40th parallels will be pleading to be repatriated after one winter. Put them in a holding centre in Wick while you are running up the Alcatrazes.

    Cheap, legal, effective.
    Sure, but what about the legitimate asylum seekers?
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 7,599
    Posterity will ne'er survey a nobler grave than this,
    Here lie the bones of Castlereagh
    Stop, traveller, and piss

    Politician hatred is so Byron 1822
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    Unpopular said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    kle4 said:

    nico679 said:

    Looks like the UK will soon be withdrawing from the ECHR if the odious Braverman has her way . Patel replaced by an equally nasty individual .

    It is surely the principal reason for her appointment. Stop the boats, get out of the ECHR, job done - it'll give endless chances for them to claim Labour want to give succour to criminals.
    Unfortunately the general public don’t seem to realize how many rights have been secured by the ECHR . I’m hoping there’s enough backbench Tories who would rebel and stop that from happening . It wasn’t in the manifesto , the HOL should not back down if legislation gets there. Can you imagine the optics at this time for the UK to be withdrawing from the ECHR .
    This is a good argument for leaving. These questions should be decided politically in the UK.
    So you trust the Tories to protect your rights ? Good luck with that .
    Translation: "I don't trust the UK to govern itself. It needs babysitting by continental Europeans."
    You’re missing the point . Governments can change , and rights could then be at the whim of those . Why don’t you read up on the rights won by Brits because of the ECHR .
    Name one.

    And name how the ECHR protected that right in Putin's Russia.

    Russia and Belarus are not signatories to the ECHR.

    Russia was until February 2022.

    And before that the court's judgments could not be enforced in Russia because the courts were not independent of the government. The ECHR only works in countries in which the rule of law applies.

    So the ECtHR does not work then. It isn't a guarantor.
    It is in a country where courts are independent of government influence.
    In a country where courts are independent of government influence, then why do you need it? Is it just the urge to standardise? You can't face the idea that 'rights' might be contingent?
    I think for Remainers it is a last shred of European rule over the UK that they are desperate to cling onto. Which is probably reason enough to get rid of it. But more importantly, all the arguments in favour of it seem to melt away when analysed, like snow in spring sun
    You'd cut down every law in England to get at the Remainers? Do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then?
    Hmm, such familiar phrasing :)

    William Roper: “So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!”

    Sir Thomas More: “Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?”

    William Roper: “Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!”

    Sir Thomas More: “Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
    One of my faves, I think :) I think I've put it through on PB a few times already.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,380

    HYUFD said:

    Head of the Taxpayers' Alliance, Matthew Sinclair, appointed Truss' chief economic adviser
    https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1567153688535306241?s=20&t=89sFpch1U0OCXe8MujhTww

    Ah, the Taxpayer’s Alliance, that stalwart association of hardworking burghers.
    It's interesting. If she was going to renege on her wild promises, they'd be the first to complain, so I think we have to assume she means them. He will want cuts in personal taxation, though, not just for businesses.
  • Options

    Truss should have offered Sunak FS, and Sunak should have accepted.

    Hell no!

    He's been far too equivocal on the Ukrainian conflict.
  • Options
    Brandon Lewis is a bit of a survivor isn't he?

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,655

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    I don’t think anyone would argue with Ben Wallace at defence . As for the rest of the appointments they vary from meh to absolutely horrific !

    Boris' Cabinet looks heavyweight compared to this one so far, with the exceptions of Kwarteng, Wallace and maybe Coffey
    Thatcher had a Willie. Where’s Truss’ Willie?
    Cue jokes about every male in Parliament...
  • Options

    Coffey has a PhD in Chemistry and works like a trooper. She'll be fine.

    Kwarteng is an ex Kings Scholar and a brainbox. He'll be fine.

    Suella Braverman is absolutely lovely in person but appears to have gone off the deep end in recent years. She'll almost certainly fail at Home Secretary, which is a horrible job anyway. For her political career to survive she has to stop the boats. I have no confidence.

    Kwasi is obviously very smart.
    On paper, he looks great.

    The problem is that he seems to have been a dud in BEIS.

    The fact that he has shagged the new PM (or vice versa) adds a interesting frisson perhaps not seems since James I.

    I’ll be watching with interest.
    Ruddy hell!

    Are we sure about this? Are OGH's legal team sure about this?
    @Gardenwalker got his facts wrong (again!).

    Kwarteng had a fling with Amber Rudd, NOT Truss.

    Truss had her fling with Mark Field MP.

    Sources:
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/amber-gives-green-light-to-suitors-hhn02r537
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/nov/05/elizabeth-truss-deselection-affair
    Looks like a retraction would be wise
  • Options

    Well I have now reached that point in life when I am older than the PM.

    Youngsters running the country!

    I have been drifting in and out of that state since 2010. I was older than Cameron, significantly younger than May, very slightly younger than Johnson and now significantly older than Truss.
    I am guessing you were born in 1966?
    1965. But yes that would also fit.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,335

    Leon said:

    I like to listen to the political news through nonpartisan, nonpolitical sources like the hourly news bulletin on Magic Radio to hear how it sounds to people who don't read PB. It wasn't great for Truss to be honest - they played that soundbite about putting spades in the ground to lower utility bills, which is literally just random words assembled into a sentence. I am already tired of her voice, too. Obviously I am not an unbiased source on this matter, but I honestly think she is going to be shit. If Labour don't win the next election they should probably just pack up and go home.

    Be of good cheer, Labour will in in 2024. My side will be the depressed people

    Which, in a way, is only fair. The pendulum must swing, and much as I abhor Wokeness etc the Tories look desperately tired

    My big worry is that Truss is going to enact some quite radically conservative policies - some of them much needed - at exactly the wrong time: with only two years to make them work, and in the teeth of a terrible downturn. So they won’t work and voters will recoil, and we will get pathetic Woke socialist declinism for a decade and a half

    MEH

    Not just that.

    We can (but for the love of all that's sacred, let's not) quibble about whether Truss's top team is brilliant Rainbow Nation stuff, or the triumph of a globalised wealthy Private School + Oxbridge elite. But if they stuff up (and their strategy looks risky, to put it mildly), that could have a bad long-term effect on all of this stuff.
    As far as I can see it is not really the latter. Only Kwarteng and Braverman went to private school and Oxbridge of the new Cabinet at present and of those only Kwarteng went to a major public school, Eton
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,694
    Leon said:

    BADENOCH FOR EDUCATION, surely?

    Culture surely?
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 7,599

    Norfolk Mafia - asks Coates on sky.

    Chloe Smith goes in.

    Hope she gets DWP.

    She better make the most of it. Norwich North is going redder than red next time
  • Options
    If I am honest I barely know who Cleverly is and I am a pol obsessive and PB bettor.

    Is it just me?
  • Options
    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    kle4 said:

    nico679 said:

    Looks like the UK will soon be withdrawing from the ECHR if the odious Braverman has her way . Patel replaced by an equally nasty individual .

    It is surely the principal reason for her appointment. Stop the boats, get out of the ECHR, job done - it'll give endless chances for them to claim Labour want to give succour to criminals.
    Unfortunately the general public don’t seem to realize how many rights have been secured by the ECHR . I’m hoping there’s enough backbench Tories who would rebel and stop that from happening . It wasn’t in the manifesto , the HOL should not back down if legislation gets there. Can you imagine the optics at this time for the UK to be withdrawing from the ECHR .
    This is a good argument for leaving. These questions should be decided politically in the UK.
    So you trust the Tories to protect your rights ? Good luck with that .
    Translation: "I don't trust the UK to govern itself. It needs babysitting by continental Europeans."
    You’re missing the point . Governments can change , and rights could then be at the whim of those . Why don’t you read up on the rights won by Brits because of the ECHR .
    Name one.

    And name how the ECHR protected that right in Putin's Russia.

    Russia and Belarus are not signatories to the ECHR.

    Russia was until February 2022.

    And before that the court's judgments could not be enforced in Russia because the courts were not independent of the government. The ECHR only works in countries in which the rule of law applies.

    So the ECtHR does not work then. It isn't a guarantor.
    It is in a country where courts are independent of government influence.
    In a country where courts are independent of government influence, then why do you need it? Is it just the urge to standardise? You can't face the idea that 'rights' might be contingent?

    Yep, I am guilty of that. I believe the right to vote, to hold private property, to be protected from arbitrary imprisonment and so on are not contingent, but inalienable.

    But given that Parliament is sovereign and can repeal the HRA and leave the ECHR is there really any "protection"?

    It's a very fair point. The protection is being a member of the ECHR, but it only exists as a protection for as long as Parliament allows it. I guess that all it represents is an extra hoop for a government that sought to curtail human rights to jump through before it could do so. That's not great - but it's better than nothing.

    The government is incandescent with rage about those hoops - that shows they have an effect.
    OR the hoops are now ridiculous foreign obstacles that prevent the UK government of the day enacting the will of the people

    HMG’s Rwanda policy has been passed as lawful by all relevant British courts. It was the ECHR which stopped it

    Now you may hate the Rwanda policy but it is an attempt to solve a problem that the British people want solved, and with reason. It might not work but it is surely worth trying. If independent British judges say it does not infringe human rights then that’s good enough for me

    Get on with it
    My problem with the Rwanda policy is not whether it is lawful or not, I think it is the wrong approach regardless of whether it is lawful. I am happy to concede that things may be lawful even if I think they are shitty. If the UK parliament wants to pursue that policy in non-compliance with the ECHR, if indeed it is, then I would object to the policy regardless, I just wouldn't mention the legality.

    Same thing over the prorogation case, albeit that did not touch on ECHR issues - it was the wrong thing to do even if the court had ruled it was acceptable (frankly I was not entirely persuaded by the argument it was not legal).
    Which is entirely fair. The Rwanda policy is highly contentious, and I can understand the many objections. I believe, however, we are at a stage when we need pretty radical solutions, because this will only get worse

    But these are proper debates we need to have in a democratic country. What we don’t need is some ridiculous foreign court saying No a democratic British government can’t do something that the British people want, even though the British courts have said it is permissible. Enough
    There's this many uninhabited Shetland islands (about 100 by eyeball)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Uninhabited_islands_of_Shetland

    Now, if 1 in 10 is buildable on that is Alcatraz x 10. Build them. Anyone from between about the 40th parallels will be pleading to be repatriated after one winter. Put them in a holding centre in Wick while you are running up the Alcatrazes.

    Cheap, legal, effective.
    Could be Snake Plissken's biggest challenge yet.
  • Options

    Coffey has a PhD in Chemistry and works like a trooper. She'll be fine.

    Kwarteng is an ex Kings Scholar and a brainbox. He'll be fine.

    Suella Braverman is absolutely lovely in person but appears to have gone off the deep end in recent years. She'll almost certainly fail at Home Secretary, which is a horrible job anyway. For her political career to survive she has to stop the boats. I have no confidence.

    Kwasi is obviously very smart.
    On paper, he looks great.

    The problem is that he seems to have been a dud in BEIS.

    The fact that he has shagged the new PM (or vice versa) adds a interesting frisson perhaps not seems since James I.

    I’ll be watching with interest.
    Ruddy hell!

    Are we sure about this? Are OGH's legal team sure about this?
    @Gardenwalker got his facts wrong (again!).

    Kwarteng had a fling with Amber Rudd, NOT Truss.

    Truss had her fling with Mark Field MP.

    Sources:
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/amber-gives-green-light-to-suitors-hhn02r537
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/nov/05/elizabeth-truss-deselection-affair
    I’m afraid you’ll find I’m correct in this matter.
    'Course you are, Gardenwalker! 'Course you are!
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,139
    Housing is important apparently, any word on (sigh) DLUHC?
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited September 2022

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Cookie said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Prime minister Liz Truss in her first speech outside No.10:

    “Now is the time to tackle the issues that are holding Britain back.”

    https://twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1567183127134584838


    Brexit...

    Really? Still? To you, Brexit is still Britain's #1 issue?
    She didn't say #1, she said holding Britain back.

    Absofuckinglutely, Brexit is holding Britain back.
    Just think how much higher your own productivity would be if you accepted it and moved on.
    But hating Brexit and railing uselessly against it IS Scott's whole raison d'etre. If he didn't have that he would be a hollow, empty shell staring listlessly at a flickering screen, bereft of purpose or meaning.

    Don't take that way from him please. It would be too cruel.
    Very disappointing that you should denigrate in such terms a passionate political belief.
    Why not? There are many political beliefs worthy of being denigrated, some of which have very passionate advocates. It doesn't make them right nor worthy of respect.
    Brexit was a deranged act of self harm driven by jingoistic racists. Passionately advocating that belief day after day may be a bit pointless, but that doesn't alter the fundamental truth of the proposition.
  • Options

    Posterity will ne'er survey a nobler grave than this,
    Here lie the bones of Castlereagh
    Stop, traveller, and piss

    Politician hatred is so Byron 1822

    My A level 19th century politics and history was very hazy on exactly why Castlereagh was so detested, only that he was. And that they removed his guns but he did away with himself with scissors. Or perhaps I made that up.
  • Options

    Norfolk Mafia - asks Coates on sky.

    Chloe Smith goes in.

    Hope she gets DWP.

    She better make the most of it. Norwich North is going redder than red next time
    I believe a vacancy in Bedfordshire is coming shortly.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,950
    edited September 2022
    I'm no supporter of, believer in or expert in the Conservative Party or how it works.

    As an outsider, Ben Wallace looks in the ideal position to take over if or perhaps when Truss falters - I would expect, were it to happen, a coronation (as with Howard in 2003) and Wallace then rapidly re-structuring the Cabinet to something more substantial in time for the 2024 GE.

    IF Truss leads the party to defeat in the GE, Wallace, assuming his majority survives the near 16% swing required to unseat him (and of course another Defence Secretary sitting on what seemed an impregnable majority went down to defeat 25 years ago) would be in a strong position to rebuild the party.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,694
    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Leon said:


    All the food I’m eating in Portugal is better than almost any of the food I had in Italy. Unexpected


    Addictive but trashy food also available:



    Chocolate salami does not taste much of chocolate, more like a cheap fridge cake. But the Portuguese are in love with it.
    Oddly tempting!
    I do like the look of that.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,193
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    I don’t think anyone would argue with Ben Wallace at defence . As for the rest of the appointments they vary from meh to absolutely horrific !

    Boris' Cabinet looks heavyweight compared to this one so far, with the exceptions of Kwarteng, Wallace and maybe Coffey
    Well, Coffey is undoubtedly a heavyweight...
    The before in before and after health campaigns.....
  • Options

    Norfolk Mafia - asks Coates on sky.

    Chloe Smith goes in.

    Hope she gets DWP.

    She better make the most of it. Norwich North is going redder than red next time
    I believe a vacancy in Bedfordshire is coming shortly.
    There’s been a vacancy there for some time.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,553
    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    kle4 said:

    nico679 said:

    Looks like the UK will soon be withdrawing from the ECHR if the odious Braverman has her way . Patel replaced by an equally nasty individual .

    It is surely the principal reason for her appointment. Stop the boats, get out of the ECHR, job done - it'll give endless chances for them to claim Labour want to give succour to criminals.
    Unfortunately the general public don’t seem to realize how many rights have been secured by the ECHR . I’m hoping there’s enough backbench Tories who would rebel and stop that from happening . It wasn’t in the manifesto , the HOL should not back down if legislation gets there. Can you imagine the optics at this time for the UK to be withdrawing from the ECHR .
    This is a good argument for leaving. These questions should be decided politically in the UK.
    So you trust the Tories to protect your rights ? Good luck with that .
    Translation: "I don't trust the UK to govern itself. It needs babysitting by continental Europeans."
    You’re missing the point . Governments can change , and rights could then be at the whim of those . Why don’t you read up on the rights won by Brits because of the ECHR .
    Name one.

    And name how the ECHR protected that right in Putin's Russia.

    Russia and Belarus are not signatories to the ECHR.

    Russia was until February 2022.

    And before that the court's judgments could not be enforced in Russia because the courts were not independent of the government. The ECHR only works in countries in which the rule of law applies.

    So the ECtHR does not work then. It isn't a guarantor.
    It is in a country where courts are independent of government influence.
    In a country where courts are independent of government influence, then why do you need it? Is it just the urge to standardise? You can't face the idea that 'rights' might be contingent?

    Yep, I am guilty of that. I believe the right to vote, to hold private property, to be protected from arbitrary imprisonment and so on are not contingent, but inalienable.

    They're inalienable rights protected by British courts and the British Parliament not the ECHR.

    How did the ECHR protect "the right to vote, to hold private property, to be protected from arbitrary imprisonment and so on" in Russia until February?

    It didn't.

    UK courts will implement UK law. In the absence of the ECHR. a democratically elected UK government could remove the right to private property, limit the franchise and imprison people without trial all through simple acts of Parliament that the independent courts would be obliged apply. You are seemingly OK with that, I am not. We disagree.

    You seem to think the ECHR makes a difference when it demonstrably doesn't.

    I'm not OK with any government doing that but I put my faith more in our voters preventing that, than failed and nobbled courts.
    If I were a 1930s German jew I think I would rather the Convention applied than that it didn't. and I would continue to have that preference in the face of any number of shouty affirmations that IT WON'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE YOU REALISE?
    You don't need to look back to the 1930s anymore. Look at modern day Russia which was in the ECHR until February.
    A non answer, because even as a Russian dissident today I would prefer the country to be party to the convention.
    As a Russian dissident I would think the ECHR was an absolute failure. It is the League of Nations of Human Rights.
    But you're not a Russian dissident, are you?
    It would certainly explain away his total lack of understanding as to how the British economy works.
  • Options
    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,822
    edited September 2022
    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/09/06/teacher-jailed-row-use-pronouns-transgender-pupil/

    A teacher in Ireland has been jailed for refusing to use the pronoun 'they' to refer to a pupil who identified as neither male nor female.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of the gender identity debate, 'they' is a plural noun and totally unsuitable for referring to a person.
    If it's wrong, it's been wrong for a long time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

    "This use of singular they emerged by the 14th century, about a century after the plural they. It has been commonly employed in everyday English ever since and has gained currency in official contexts. Singular they has been criticised since the mid-18th century by prescriptive commentators who consider it an error. Its continued use in modern standard English has become more common and formally accepted with the move toward gender-neutral language. Though some early-21st-century style guides described it as colloquial and less appropriate in formal writing, by 2020 most style guides accepted the singular they as a personal pronoun."
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Coffey has a PhD in Chemistry and works like a trooper. She'll be fine.

    Kwarteng is an ex Kings Scholar and a brainbox. He'll be fine.

    Suella Braverman is absolutely lovely in person but appears to have gone off the deep end in recent years. She'll almost certainly fail at Home Secretary, which is a horrible job anyway. For her political career to survive she has to stop the boats. I have no confidence.

    Kwasi is obviously very smart.
    On paper, he looks great.

    The problem is that he seems to have been a dud in BEIS.

    The fact that he has shagged the new PM (or vice versa) adds a interesting frisson perhaps not seems since James I.

    I’ll be watching with interest.
    Ruddy hell!

    Are we sure about this? Are OGH's legal team sure about this?
    I am concerned about the allegations and have asked for a link as I know Truss had affair but that was with Mark Field

    Not sure OGH would be impressed
    An allegation is a claim or assertion that someone has done something illegal or wrong,

    It is not against the law to have sex. This can't possibly be actionable.

    Whether it is true or not is another matter.
    Are you sure about that? Surely at the very least it is potentially a civil offence. What is to stop you accusing me of being Andrew RT Davies's bitch if I can't sue your arse?
    You can sue me if a libel (like "you are RT's bitch") leads to loss of your reputation or income.

    That piece of legal advice has just cost you £50.

    Of course, to be sure, you perhaps need the expert opinion of one the many extremely busy :wink: lawyers who infest pb.com at all hours of the day or night.

    They will charge you £350 for the same advice.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    kle4 said:

    nico679 said:

    Looks like the UK will soon be withdrawing from the ECHR if the odious Braverman has her way . Patel replaced by an equally nasty individual .

    It is surely the principal reason for her appointment. Stop the boats, get out of the ECHR, job done - it'll give endless chances for them to claim Labour want to give succour to criminals.
    Unfortunately the general public don’t seem to realize how many rights have been secured by the ECHR . I’m hoping there’s enough backbench Tories who would rebel and stop that from happening . It wasn’t in the manifesto , the HOL should not back down if legislation gets there. Can you imagine the optics at this time for the UK to be withdrawing from the ECHR .
    This is a good argument for leaving. These questions should be decided politically in the UK.
    So you trust the Tories to protect your rights ? Good luck with that .
    Translation: "I don't trust the UK to govern itself. It needs babysitting by continental Europeans."
    You’re missing the point . Governments can change , and rights could then be at the whim of those . Why don’t you read up on the rights won by Brits because of the ECHR .
    Name one.

    And name how the ECHR protected that right in Putin's Russia.

    Russia and Belarus are not signatories to the ECHR.

    Russia was until February 2022.

    And before that the court's judgments could not be enforced in Russia because the courts were not independent of the government. The ECHR only works in countries in which the rule of law applies.

    So the ECtHR does not work then. It isn't a guarantor.
    It is in a country where courts are independent of government influence.
    In a country where courts are independent of government influence, then why do you need it? Is it just the urge to standardise? You can't face the idea that 'rights' might be contingent?

    Yep, I am guilty of that. I believe the right to vote, to hold private property, to be protected from arbitrary imprisonment and so on are not contingent, but inalienable.

    They're inalienable rights protected by British courts and the British Parliament not the ECHR.

    How did the ECHR protect "the right to vote, to hold private property, to be protected from arbitrary imprisonment and so on" in Russia until February?

    It didn't.

    UK courts will implement UK law. In the absence of the ECHR. a democratically elected UK government could remove the right to private property, limit the franchise and imprison people without trial all through simple acts of Parliament that the independent courts would be obliged apply. You are seemingly OK with that, I am not. We disagree.

    You seem to think the ECHR makes a difference when it demonstrably doesn't.

    I'm not OK with any government doing that but I put my faith more in our voters preventing that, than failed and nobbled courts.
    If I were a 1930s German jew I think I would rather the Convention applied than that it didn't. and I would continue to have that preference in the face of any number of shouty affirmations that IT WON'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE YOU REALISE?
    You don't need to look back to the 1930s anymore. Look at modern day Russia which was in the ECHR until February.
    A non answer, because even as a Russian dissident today I would prefer the country to be party to the convention.
    As a Russian dissident I would think the ECHR was an absolute failure. It is the League of Nations of Human Rights.
    But you're not a Russian dissident, are you?
    Maybe ask Russian dissidents like Navalny or the plethora of poisoning or "falling out of a window" dissidents and journalists how much protection the ECHR gave them?
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    Head of the Taxpayers' Alliance, Matthew Sinclair, appointed Truss' chief economic adviser
    https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1567153688535306241?s=20&t=89sFpch1U0OCXe8MujhTww

    Ah, the Taxpayer’s Alliance, that stalwart association of hardworking burghers.
    It's interesting. If she was going to renege on her wild promises, they'd be the first to complain, so I think we have to assume she means them. He will want cuts in personal taxation, though, not just for businesses.
    He's the former head of tax alliance.

    I think Lilico in Telegraph lists half a dozen jobs since then.

  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,380

    Coffey has a PhD in Chemistry and works like a trooper. She'll be fine.

    Kwarteng is an ex Kings Scholar and a brainbox. He'll be fine.

    Suella Braverman is absolutely lovely in person but appears to have gone off the deep end in recent years. She'll almost certainly fail at Home Secretary, which is a horrible job anyway. For her political career to survive she has to stop the boats. I have no confidence.

    Kwasi is obviously very smart.
    On paper, he looks great.

    The problem is that he seems to have been a dud in BEIS.

    The fact that he has shagged the new PM (or vice versa) adds a interesting frisson perhaps not seems since James I.

    I’ll be watching with interest.
    Ruddy hell!

    Are we sure about this? Are OGH's legal team sure about this?
    I am concerned about the allegations and have asked for a link as I know Truss had affair but that was with Mark Field

    Not sure OGH would be impressed
    An allegation is a claim or assertion that someone has done something illegal or wrong,

    It is not against the law to have sex. This can't possibly be actionable.

    Whether it is true or not is another matter.
    Are you sure about that? Surely at the very least it is potentially a civil offence. What is to stop you accusing me of being Andrew RT Davies's bitch if I can't sue your arse?
    Libel is "a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation". It does not need to refer to breaking the law.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    kle4 said:

    Please don’t send JRM to Business

    Please don’t send JRM to Business

    Please don’t send JRM to Business

    I have some bad news for you.
    Every appointment as trailed so far. 🫣
    Remember "She's just dressing bonkers right to win the party election. As soon as that's over, she'll tack to the centre-right to win with the public" thing?

    What we saw is what we're going to get.

    🙀 . .
    A cartoon cat variant of 😩 Weary Face. Its expression more closely resembles 😱 Face Screaming in Fear. Depicted as yellow on major platforms. Weary Cat was approved as part of Unicode 6.0 in 2010 under the name “Weary Cat Face” and added to Emoji 1.0 in 2015.

    Could you simplify your emojis pls?
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Perhaps another cabinet member could challenge JRM to a duel.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,655

    Posterity will ne'er survey a nobler grave than this,
    Here lie the bones of Castlereagh
    Stop, traveller, and piss

    Politician hatred is so Byron 1822

    My A level 19th century politics and history was very hazy on exactly why Castlereagh was so detested, only that he was. And that they removed his guns but he did away with himself with scissors. Or perhaps I made that up.
    It was a paper knife.

    He was detested by radicals because they blamed him for Britain's involvement with the Congress system and the Holy Alliance dedicated to suppressing anti-monarchical sentiment in Europe.

    Which was unfair, as actually he considered helping the Portuguese liberals (for example) but concluded another war might result with far worse consequences for everyone.
  • Options

    Coffey has a PhD in Chemistry and works like a trooper. She'll be fine.

    Kwarteng is an ex Kings Scholar and a brainbox. He'll be fine.

    Suella Braverman is absolutely lovely in person but appears to have gone off the deep end in recent years. She'll almost certainly fail at Home Secretary, which is a horrible job anyway. For her political career to survive she has to stop the boats. I have no confidence.

    Kwasi is obviously very smart.
    On paper, he looks great.

    The problem is that he seems to have been a dud in BEIS.

    The fact that he has shagged the new PM (or vice versa) adds a interesting frisson perhaps not seems since James I.

    I’ll be watching with interest.
    Ruddy hell!

    Are we sure about this? Are OGH's legal team sure about this?
    I am concerned about the allegations and have asked for a link as I know Truss had affair but that was with Mark Field

    Not sure OGH would be impressed
    An allegation is a claim or assertion that someone has done something illegal or wrong,

    It is not against the law to have sex. This can't possibly be actionable.

    Whether it is true or not is another matter.
    Are you sure about that? Surely at the very least it is potentially a civil offence. What is to stop you accusing me of being Andrew RT Davies's bitch if I can't sue your arse?
    Libel is "a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation". It does not need to refer to breaking the law.
    I really cannot believe he has not retracted it yet
  • Options

    Coffey has a PhD in Chemistry and works like a trooper. She'll be fine.

    Kwarteng is an ex Kings Scholar and a brainbox. He'll be fine.

    Suella Braverman is absolutely lovely in person but appears to have gone off the deep end in recent years. She'll almost certainly fail at Home Secretary, which is a horrible job anyway. For her political career to survive she has to stop the boats. I have no confidence.

    Kwasi is obviously very smart.
    On paper, he looks great.

    The problem is that he seems to have been a dud in BEIS.

    The fact that he has shagged the new PM (or vice versa) adds a interesting frisson perhaps not seems since James I.

    I’ll be watching with interest.
    Ruddy hell!

    Are we sure about this? Are OGH's legal team sure about this?
    I am concerned about the allegations and have asked for a link as I know Truss had affair but that was with Mark Field

    Not sure OGH would be impressed
    An allegation is a claim or assertion that someone has done something illegal or wrong,

    It is not against the law to have sex. This can't possibly be actionable.

    Whether it is true or not is another matter.
    Are you sure about that? Surely at the very least it is potentially a civil offence. What is to stop you accusing me of being Andrew RT Davies's bitch if I can't sue your arse?
    You can sue me if a libel (like "you are RT's bitch") leads to loss of your reputation or income.

    That piece of legal advice has just cost you £50.

    Of course, to be sure, you perhaps need the expert opinion of one the many extremely busy :wink: lawyers who infest pb.com at all hours of the day or night.

    They will charge you £350 for the same advice.
    UK libel laws are of course quite repressive.

    This site is full to the brim of assertions about Truss’s sexual preferences, but when I note in passing a pretty well known story about the new PM people start clutching pearls.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,881

    Posterity will ne'er survey a nobler grave than this,
    Here lie the bones of Castlereagh
    Stop, traveller, and piss

    Politician hatred is so Byron 1822

    My A level 19th century politics and history was very hazy on exactly why Castlereagh was so detested, only that he was. And that they removed his guns but he did away with himself with scissors. Or perhaps I made that up.
    Wasn’t that Meriwether Lewis the US explorer who did himself in, thusly?

    Went to his death place in the spring, it is a poignant site
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Coffey has a PhD in Chemistry and works like a trooper. She'll be fine.

    Kwarteng is an ex Kings Scholar and a brainbox. He'll be fine.

    Suella Braverman is absolutely lovely in person but appears to have gone off the deep end in recent years. She'll almost certainly fail at Home Secretary, which is a horrible job anyway. For her political career to survive she has to stop the boats. I have no confidence.

    Kwasi is obviously very smart.
    On paper, he looks great.

    The problem is that he seems to have been a dud in BEIS.

    The fact that he has shagged the new PM (or vice versa) adds a interesting frisson perhaps not seems since James I.

    I’ll be watching with interest.
    Ruddy hell!

    Are we sure about this? Are OGH's legal team sure about this?
    I am concerned about the allegations and have asked for a link as I know Truss had affair but that was with Mark Field

    Not sure OGH would be impressed
    An allegation is a claim or assertion that someone has done something illegal or wrong,

    It is not against the law to have sex. This can't possibly be actionable.

    Whether it is true or not is another matter.
    Are you sure about that? Surely at the very least it is potentially a civil offence. What is to stop you accusing me of being Andrew RT Davies's bitch if I can't sue your arse?
    You can sue me if a libel (like "you are RT's bitch") leads to loss of your reputation or income.

    That piece of legal advice has just cost you £50.

    Of course, to be sure, you perhaps need the expert opinion of one the many extremely busy :wink: lawyers who infest pb.com at all hours of the day or night.

    They will charge you £350 for the same advice.
    For £500 I will also put you right about the meaning of "allegation."
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    Brandon Lewis appointed the new Lord Chancellor and Justice Secretary

    https://twitter.com/10DowningStreet/status/1567223375205916681?s=20&t=89sFpch1U0OCXe8MujhTww

    Shit choice
    What’s wrong with him.
    I have no opinion of him one way or another.
    He's crap.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,694

    @MoonRabbit from last thread
    Thats what im waiting to see. The Truss plan and Starmer plan will probably have similar net effects in freezing but truss AIUI is for 2 years and slightly better protects lower end users whilst punishing higher end a bit more.
    The key however is businesses - Davey and Starmers freeze does nothing for them, if Truss does then her plan is superior regardless of raising 4% of the cost via a windfall tax or not.
    No point us all staying warm and there being no businesses left to utilise and work for
    Edit - no business measures and Truss can do one on day one

    Horse Battery can make a fine socialist out of you yet, Woolie if you are selling us a socialist energy price freeze on PB 🤭

    I don’t dislike the element of trying some compulsion of everyone saving energy, but is it enough compulsion and no inherent vice?

    Labours policy would be the best value for money option for the nation, at shielding billpayers from the imminent 80% rise set for October, and another jump in January. The weakness of it though is the crisis will not be over by March 2023.

    My main attack on Truss leaked proposal, and that is all it is, she hasn’t nailed herself to anything, is the need for windfall tax to pay for some it, not just fairness signalling, but the political element of getting much needed buy in from the public.
    A windfall tax already exists though. I could see the logic of extending its duration as a signal only, not its scope.
    Labours policy leaves business to wither on the vine. Economically catastrophic for millions via job losses, services lost etc. It was too rushed, too limited in scope and too focussed on 'getting in the news'
    And there lies the problem. Labour doesn't understand business. It never has (even during Blair premiership) and it never will. It sees business, whether large or small as a cash cow to tax as much as possible. It is why I would have struggled to vote Labour even if the Clown was still PM.
    Okay boys, talk me through this Tory plan for helping business you are sure Liz has, and sure Lib Dems and labour have nothing.

    How will this business energy crisis plan help businesses who have already now signed long deals on contract?

    And We will hear about it on Thursday, alongside the details on the domestic users package, you are sure?
    👂 I didn’t ask for too much detail you don’t have did I?

    You led me to believe there was a plan. What did you hear, what do you know?
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,753
    BTW the BBC ain't what it was. Someone (it may have been Nick Eardley) referred to Cincinnatus as a Roman emperor during their coverage today.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,054
    edited September 2022

    HYUFD said:

    Head of the Taxpayers' Alliance, Matthew Sinclair, appointed Truss' chief economic adviser
    https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1567153688535306241?s=20&t=89sFpch1U0OCXe8MujhTww

    Ah, the Taxpayer’s Alliance, that stalwart association of hardworking burghers.
    I am a tax payer, yet they have never asked my opinion. Or are they just an alliance of corporate tax payers?

  • Options
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Head of the Taxpayers' Alliance, Matthew Sinclair, appointed Truss' chief economic adviser
    https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1567153688535306241?s=20&t=89sFpch1U0OCXe8MujhTww

    Ah, the Taxpayer’s Alliance, that stalwart association of hardworking burghers.
    I am a tax payers, yet they have never asked my opinion. Or are they just an alliance of corporate tax payers?

    A consortium of Kochs, you mean?
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Coffey has a PhD in Chemistry and works like a trooper. She'll be fine.

    Kwarteng is an ex Kings Scholar and a brainbox. He'll be fine.

    Suella Braverman is absolutely lovely in person but appears to have gone off the deep end in recent years. She'll almost certainly fail at Home Secretary, which is a horrible job anyway. For her political career to survive she has to stop the boats. I have no confidence.

    Kwasi is obviously very smart.
    On paper, he looks great.

    The problem is that he seems to have been a dud in BEIS.

    The fact that he has shagged the new PM (or vice versa) adds a interesting frisson perhaps not seems since James I.

    I’ll be watching with interest.
    Ruddy hell!

    Are we sure about this? Are OGH's legal team sure about this?
    I am concerned about the allegations and have asked for a link as I know Truss had affair but that was with Mark Field

    Not sure OGH would be impressed
    An allegation is a claim or assertion that someone has done something illegal or wrong,

    It is not against the law to have sex. This can't possibly be actionable.

    Whether it is true or not is another matter.
    Are you sure about that? Surely at the very least it is potentially a civil offence. What is to stop you accusing me of being Andrew RT Davies's bitch if I can't sue your arse?
    Libel is "a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation". It does not need to refer to breaking the law.
    So, the question is does: the suggestion (whether true or not) that Kwasi had an affair with Liz tend to damage either of their reputations.

    I don't see how it does.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    kle4 said:

    nico679 said:

    Looks like the UK will soon be withdrawing from the ECHR if the odious Braverman has her way . Patel replaced by an equally nasty individual .

    It is surely the principal reason for her appointment. Stop the boats, get out of the ECHR, job done - it'll give endless chances for them to claim Labour want to give succour to criminals.
    Unfortunately the general public don’t seem to realize how many rights have been secured by the ECHR . I’m hoping there’s enough backbench Tories who would rebel and stop that from happening . It wasn’t in the manifesto , the HOL should not back down if legislation gets there. Can you imagine the optics at this time for the UK to be withdrawing from the ECHR .
    This is a good argument for leaving. These questions should be decided politically in the UK.
    So you trust the Tories to protect your rights ? Good luck with that .
    Translation: "I don't trust the UK to govern itself. It needs babysitting by continental Europeans."
    You’re missing the point . Governments can change , and rights could then be at the whim of those . Why don’t you read up on the rights won by Brits because of the ECHR .
    Name one.

    And name how the ECHR protected that right in Putin's Russia.

    Russia and Belarus are not signatories to the ECHR.

    Russia was until February 2022.

    And before that the court's judgments could not be enforced in Russia because the courts were not independent of the government. The ECHR only works in countries in which the rule of law applies.

    So the ECtHR does not work then. It isn't a guarantor.
    It is in a country where courts are independent of government influence.
    In a country where courts are independent of government influence, then why do you need it? Is it just the urge to standardise? You can't face the idea that 'rights' might be contingent?

    Yep, I am guilty of that. I believe the right to vote, to hold private property, to be protected from arbitrary imprisonment and so on are not contingent, but inalienable.

    They're inalienable rights protected by British courts and the British Parliament not the ECHR.

    How did the ECHR protect "the right to vote, to hold private property, to be protected from arbitrary imprisonment and so on" in Russia until February?

    It didn't.

    UK courts will implement UK law. In the absence of the ECHR. a democratically elected UK government could remove the right to private property, limit the franchise and imprison people without trial all through simple acts of Parliament that the independent courts would be obliged apply. You are seemingly OK with that, I am not. We disagree.

    You seem to think the ECHR makes a difference when it demonstrably doesn't.

    I'm not OK with any government doing that but I put my faith more in our voters preventing that, than failed and nobbled courts.
    If I were a 1930s German jew I think I would rather the Convention applied than that it didn't. and I would continue to have that preference in the face of any number of shouty affirmations that IT WON'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE YOU REALISE?
    You don't need to look back to the 1930s anymore. Look at modern day Russia which was in the ECHR until February.
    A non answer, because even as a Russian dissident today I would prefer the country to be party to the convention.
    As a Russian dissident I would think the ECHR was an absolute failure. It is the League of Nations of Human Rights.
    But you're not a Russian dissident, are you?
    Maybe ask Russian dissidents like Navalny or the plethora of poisoning or "falling out of a window" dissidents and journalists how much protection the ECHR gave them?
    Could you raise your game a notch or two? That argument is equivalent to, there's this ridiculous seat belt law but look at the hundreds who have died horribly while wearing seatbelts since the Act.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,655
    HYUFD said:
    Truss must really not like her. Or be scared of her.

    So far this is looking like the weakest cabinet appointed since Lord Shelburne.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,950
    The appointment of Matthew Sinclair means it's certain there will be swingeing cuts in public expenditure to try to mask the grotesque borrowing needed to cover the energy price rises.

    Sinclair and his group have long vilified Councils and central Government on spending even if most of it is non-discretionary and is about enforcing central Government diktat.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:
    Well, that's a shit job.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:
    Clever. Keeps her away from the media more than if she was a departmental bod.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,694
    HYUFD said:
    That’ll teach her for the temerity of coming within a few votes of the special one! Even NI sec is a proper job 🤭
  • Options
    MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    stodge said:

    The appointment of Matthew Sinclair means it's certain there will be swingeing cuts in public expenditure to try to mask the grotesque borrowing needed to cover the energy price rises.

    Sinclair and his group have long vilified Councils and central Government on spending even if most of it is non-discretionary and is about enforcing central Government diktat.


    To be fair, you may have alighted on the most radical appointment of them all
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,255
    Excellent appointments so far. Just waiting for John Redwood to get a post.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,346
    moonshine said:

    Coffey has a PhD in Chemistry and works like a trooper. She'll be fine.

    Kwarteng is an ex Kings Scholar and a brainbox. He'll be fine.

    Suella Braverman is absolutely lovely in person but appears to have gone off the deep end in recent years. She'll almost certainly fail at Home Secretary, which is a horrible job anyway. For her political career to survive she has to stop the boats. I have no confidence.

    Kwasi is obviously very smart.
    On paper, he looks great.

    The problem is that he seems to have been a dud in BEIS.

    The fact that he has shagged the new PM (or vice versa) adds a interesting frisson perhaps not seems since James I.

    I’ll be watching with interest.
    Ruddy hell!

    Are we sure about this? Are OGH's legal team sure about this?
    Yes suggest that is retracted
    No, it’s common currency, apparently.

    https://www.thehits.co.nz/spy/how-a-british-mp-managed-to-catch-her-husband-with-his-mistress/
    “ Rudd's on-off romance with another Old Etonian, Tory MP Kwasi Kwarteng, earned them a mention in last year's notorious "Sexminster" dossier of MPs' love lives.”
  • Options
    stodge said:

    I'm no supporter of, believer in or expert in the Conservative Party or how it works.

    As an outsider, Ben Wallace looks in the ideal position to take over if or perhaps when Truss falters - I would expect, were it to happen, a coronation (as with Howard in 2003) and Wallace then rapidly re-structuring the Cabinet to something more substantial in time for the 2024 GE.

    IF Truss leads the party to defeat in the GE, Wallace, assuming his majority survives the near 16% swing required to unseat him (and of course another Defence Secretary sitting on what seemed an impregnable majority went down to defeat 25 years ago) would be in a strong position to rebuild the party.

    Wallace doesn't want the job. He wants to be Defence Secretary, particularly now during the Russo-Ukraine War.
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,118
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    kle4 said:

    nico679 said:

    Looks like the UK will soon be withdrawing from the ECHR if the odious Braverman has her way . Patel replaced by an equally nasty individual .

    It is surely the principal reason for her appointment. Stop the boats, get out of the ECHR, job done - it'll give endless chances for them to claim Labour want to give succour to criminals.
    Unfortunately the general public don’t seem to realize how many rights have been secured by the ECHR . I’m hoping there’s enough backbench Tories who would rebel and stop that from happening . It wasn’t in the manifesto , the HOL should not back down if legislation gets there. Can you imagine the optics at this time for the UK to be withdrawing from the ECHR .
    This is a good argument for leaving. These questions should be decided politically in the UK.
    So you trust the Tories to protect your rights ? Good luck with that .
    Translation: "I don't trust the UK to govern itself. It needs babysitting by continental Europeans."
    You’re missing the point . Governments can change , and rights could then be at the whim of those . Why don’t you read up on the rights won by Brits because of the ECHR .
    Name one.

    And name how the ECHR protected that right in Putin's Russia.

    Russia and Belarus are not signatories to the ECHR.

    Russia was until February 2022.

    And before that the court's judgments could not be enforced in Russia because the courts were not independent of the government. The ECHR only works in countries in which the rule of law applies.

    So the ECtHR does not work then. It isn't a guarantor.
    It is in a country where courts are independent of government influence.
    In a country where courts are independent of government influence, then why do you need it? Is it just the urge to standardise? You can't face the idea that 'rights' might be contingent?

    Yep, I am guilty of that. I believe the right to vote, to hold private property, to be protected from arbitrary imprisonment and so on are not contingent, but inalienable.

    But given that Parliament is sovereign and can repeal the HRA and leave the ECHR is there really any "protection"?

    It's a very fair point. The protection is being a member of the ECHR, but it only exists as a protection for as long as Parliament allows it. I guess that all it represents is an extra hoop for a government that sought to curtail human rights to jump through before it could do so. That's not great - but it's better than nothing.

    The government is incandescent with rage about those hoops - that shows they have an effect.
    OR the hoops are now ridiculous foreign obstacles that prevent the UK government of the day enacting the will of the people

    HMG’s Rwanda policy has been passed as lawful by all relevant British courts. It was the ECHR which stopped it

    Now you may hate the Rwanda policy but it is an attempt to solve a problem that the British people want solved, and with reason. It might not work but it is surely worth trying. If independent British judges say it does not infringe human rights then that’s good enough for me

    Get on with it
    My problem with the Rwanda policy is not whether it is lawful or not, I think it is the wrong approach regardless of whether it is lawful. I am happy to concede that things may be lawful even if I think they are shitty. If the UK parliament wants to pursue that policy in non-compliance with the ECHR, if indeed it is, then I would object to the policy regardless, I just wouldn't mention the legality.

    Same thing over the prorogation case, albeit that did not touch on ECHR issues - it was the wrong thing to do even if the court had ruled it was acceptable (frankly I was not entirely persuaded by the argument it was not legal).
    Which is entirely fair. The Rwanda policy is highly contentious, and I can understand the many objections. I believe, however, we are at a stage when we need pretty radical solutions, because this will only get worse

    But these are proper debates we need to have in a democratic country. What we don’t need is some ridiculous foreign court saying No a democratic British government can’t do something that the British people want, even though the British courts have said it is permissible. Enough
    There's this many uninhabited Shetland islands (about 100 by eyeball)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Uninhabited_islands_of_Shetland

    Now, if 1 in 10 is buildable on that is Alcatraz x 10. Build them. Anyone from between about the 40th parallels will be pleading to be repatriated after one winter. Put them in a holding centre in Wick while you are running up the Alcatrazes.

    Cheap, legal, effective.
    Perhaps Northern Ireland, right next to the RoI border? That's basically what the French do to us.

    Must be plenty of left over military bases that could be used. The ultimate, final form of Brexit.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,553
    edited September 2022

    Coffey has a PhD in Chemistry and works like a trooper. She'll be fine.

    Kwarteng is an ex Kings Scholar and a brainbox. He'll be fine.

    Suella Braverman is absolutely lovely in person but appears to have gone off the deep end in recent years. She'll almost certainly fail at Home Secretary, which is a horrible job anyway. For her political career to survive she has to stop the boats. I have no confidence.

    Kwasi is obviously very smart.
    On paper, he looks great.

    The problem is that he seems to have been a dud in BEIS.

    The fact that he has shagged the new PM (or vice versa) adds a interesting frisson perhaps not seems since James I.

    I’ll be watching with interest.
    Ruddy hell!

    Are we sure about this? Are OGH's legal team sure about this?
    I am concerned about the allegations and have asked for a link as I know Truss had affair but that was with Mark Field

    Not sure OGH would be impressed
    An allegation is a claim or assertion that someone has done something illegal or wrong,

    It is not against the law to have sex. This can't possibly be actionable.

    Whether it is true or not is another matter.
    Are you sure about that? Surely at the very least it is potentially a civil offence. What is to stop you accusing me of being Andrew RT Davies's bitch if I can't sue your arse?
    You can sue me if a libel (like "you are RT's bitch") leads to loss of your reputation or income.

    That piece of legal advice has just cost you £50.

    Of course, to be sure, you perhaps need the expert opinion of one the many extremely busy :wink: lawyers who infest pb.com at all hours of the day or night.

    They will charge you £350 for the same advice.
    Maybe my reputation would be be enhanced if I were. I am not sure Fizzy Lizzy being unfairly accused of all sorts of bedroom shenanigans wouldn't warrant some free advice from Suella.

    The £50 is in the post by the way. At a reasonable £350, PB lawyers are underselling themselves.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,139
    HYUFD said:
    Ooh, that's a statement - often not even a Cabinet Member position (though may 'attend' it), your job being to organise the business of proper Ministers. Junior stuff.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 7,599

    Posterity will ne'er survey a nobler grave than this,
    Here lie the bones of Castlereagh
    Stop, traveller, and piss

    Politician hatred is so Byron 1822

    My A level 19th century politics and history was very hazy on exactly why Castlereagh was so detested, only that he was. And that they removed his guns but he did away with himself with scissors. Or perhaps I made that up.
    He was hounded by the early 19th century equivalent of cancel culture. Byron and Shelley playing the social justice warriors role in particular.
    He was tbf a bit of a shit at times, and got blamed/associated with Peterloo 'i met murder on the way, he had a mask like Castlereagh'
    The King sent him a note when he became incapacitated by paranoia and insanity (he was convinced he was being constantly watched and perescuted for a 'homosexual act') it said, in part, 'remember what your good health means to the nation, but in particular to me'. He had killed himself before it arrived
  • Options

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Head of the Taxpayers' Alliance, Matthew Sinclair, appointed Truss' chief economic adviser
    https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1567153688535306241?s=20&t=89sFpch1U0OCXe8MujhTww

    Ah, the Taxpayer’s Alliance, that stalwart association of hardworking burghers.
    I am a tax payers, yet they have never asked my opinion. Or are they just an alliance of corporate tax payers?

    A consortium of Kochs, you mean?
    Trussbot heard that Every Prime Minister Needs A Willie, and misunderstood.

    What we should have done is got the PM-AI to spew out 100 potential cabinets/adviser teams and then chosen the good one to show everybody.
    (Not entirely mocking. That's how art-as-a-product will be now.)
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,694

    Coffey has a PhD in Chemistry and works like a trooper. She'll be fine.

    Kwarteng is an ex Kings Scholar and a brainbox. He'll be fine.

    Suella Braverman is absolutely lovely in person but appears to have gone off the deep end in recent years. She'll almost certainly fail at Home Secretary, which is a horrible job anyway. For her political career to survive she has to stop the boats. I have no confidence.

    Kwasi is obviously very smart.
    On paper, he looks great.

    The problem is that he seems to have been a dud in BEIS.

    The fact that he has shagged the new PM (or vice versa) adds a interesting frisson perhaps not seems since James I.

    I’ll be watching with interest.
    Ruddy hell!

    Are we sure about this? Are OGH's legal team sure about this?
    I am concerned about the allegations and have asked for a link as I know Truss had affair but that was with Mark Field

    Not sure OGH would be impressed
    An allegation is a claim or assertion that someone has done something illegal or wrong,

    It is not against the law to have sex. This can't possibly be actionable.

    Whether it is true or not is another matter.
    Are you sure about that? Surely at the very least it is potentially a civil offence. What is to stop you accusing me of being Andrew RT Davies's bitch if I can't sue your arse?
    Libel is "a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation". It does not need to refer to breaking the law.
    I really cannot believe he has not retracted it yet
    It was a nice thought that at least there’s one Tory in the land who likes the BBC.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,881
    Coverage of immigration is insanely poor

    “Suella Braverman: home secretary set to take even harder line on migration”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/06/suella-braverman-home-secretary-set-to-take-even-harder-line-on-migration?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    “Even harder line”.

    From that you’d believe we are basically North Korea. Admitting no one. But in fact the UK handed out 1 MILLION visas last year and we have one of the most liberal migration regimes on earth. Plus the boat people

    It’s farcical
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,655
    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/09/06/teacher-jailed-row-use-pronouns-transgender-pupil/

    A teacher in Ireland has been jailed for refusing to use the pronoun 'they' to refer to a pupil who identified as neither male nor female.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of the gender identity debate, 'they' is a plural noun and totally unsuitable for referring to a person.
    If it's wrong, it's been wrong for a long time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

    "This use of singular they emerged by the 14th century, about a century after the plural they. It has been commonly employed in everyday English ever since and has gained currency in official contexts. Singular they has been criticised since the mid-18th century by prescriptive commentators who consider it an error. Its continued use in modern standard English has become more common and formally accepted with the move toward gender-neutral language. Though some early-21st-century style guides described it as colloquial and less appropriate in formal writing, by 2020 most style guides accepted the singular they as a personal pronoun."
    Wikipedia also claims that there is a real possibility Nazareth didn't exist until the 1940s, that there is doubt as to whether Richard III murdered his nephews, and that probability and frequency are the same thing.

    Articles depend on the cranks who write them, and most Wikipedia editors especially on controversial subjects are now cranks.

    The citation for that paragraph is an OED piece that I noted above makes a very doubtful claim indeed and is stretching the evidence past breaking point.

    I must admit, I'm surprised people are so adamant that we support bad grammar rather than trying to resolve the problem. I should have remembered PB loves a pointless discussion :smile:
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    bigglesbiggles Posts: 4,370
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Head of the Taxpayers' Alliance, Matthew Sinclair, appointed Truss' chief economic adviser
    https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1567153688535306241?s=20&t=89sFpch1U0OCXe8MujhTww

    Ah, the Taxpayer’s Alliance, that stalwart association of hardworking burghers.
    I am a tax payer, yet they have never asked my opinion. Or are they just an alliance of corporate tax payers?

    I guess this is the difference between “Taxpayer’s Alliance” and “Tax Payers’ Alliance”.

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,335
    edited September 2022

    HYUFD said:
    Well, that's a shit job.
    Yes, Mordaunt so far the only Cabinet appointment who was supporting another candidate other than Truss by the final Tory MPs round (as she was another candidate) and she gets the least powerful role so far. Telling.

    Still not a single Sunak supporter appointed to Truss' Cabinet despite Rishi getting 38% of Tory MPs votes and 43% of Tory members votes
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Coffey has a PhD in Chemistry and works like a trooper. She'll be fine.

    Kwarteng is an ex Kings Scholar and a brainbox. He'll be fine.

    Suella Braverman is absolutely lovely in person but appears to have gone off the deep end in recent years. She'll almost certainly fail at Home Secretary, which is a horrible job anyway. For her political career to survive she has to stop the boats. I have no confidence.

    Kwasi is obviously very smart.
    On paper, he looks great.

    The problem is that he seems to have been a dud in BEIS.

    The fact that he has shagged the new PM (or vice versa) adds a interesting frisson perhaps not seems since James I.

    I’ll be watching with interest.
    Ruddy hell!

    Are we sure about this? Are OGH's legal team sure about this?
    I am concerned about the allegations and have asked for a link as I know Truss had affair but that was with Mark Field

    Not sure OGH would be impressed
    An allegation is a claim or assertion that someone has done something illegal or wrong,

    It is not against the law to have sex. This can't possibly be actionable.

    Whether it is true or not is another matter.
    Are you sure about that? Surely at the very least it is potentially a civil offence. What is to stop you accusing me of being Andrew RT Davies's bitch if I can't sue your arse?
    Libel is "a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation". It does not need to refer to breaking the law.
    I really cannot believe he has not retracted it yet
    https://twitter.com/mi6rogue/status/1289820182269976576/photo/1

    16 up from the bottom

    I don't believe a word of it, natch, but you asked for a link. This is a link.
  • Options
    RH1992RH1992 Posts: 788
    edited September 2022
    Johnny Mercer's wife is not happy with her husband's sacking.

    He asked her ‘why would you do this, who is going to be better at this role than me, which of your mates gets the job, you promised a meritocracy?’
    PM - I can’t answer that Johnny

    This system stinks & treats people appallingly

    Best person I know sacked by an imbecile @trussliz


    https://twitter.com/mercer_felicity/status/1567229997881987078?t=sA8A5hCeJFyLgEoGfMi30Q&s=19
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    RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,978
    I can’t see Liz lasting long tbh
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    Andy_JS said:

    Excellent appointments so far. Just waiting for John Redwood to get a post.

    Your sense of humour is arid.
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    bigglesbiggles Posts: 4,370
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Ooh, that's a statement - often not even a Cabinet Member position (though may 'attend' it), your job being to organise the business of proper Ministers. Junior stuff.
    It’s amazing how far it’s fallen as a role. But then I guess it was mostly important back when the PM might be in the Lords.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,139
    edited September 2022
    ydoethur said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/09/06/teacher-jailed-row-use-pronouns-transgender-pupil/

    A teacher in Ireland has been jailed for refusing to use the pronoun 'they' to refer to a pupil who identified as neither male nor female.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of the gender identity debate, 'they' is a plural noun and totally unsuitable for referring to a person.
    If it's wrong, it's been wrong for a long time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

    "This use of singular they emerged by the 14th century, about a century after the plural they. It has been commonly employed in everyday English ever since and has gained currency in official contexts. Singular they has been criticised since the mid-18th century by prescriptive commentators who consider it an error. Its continued use in modern standard English has become more common and formally accepted with the move toward gender-neutral language. Though some early-21st-century style guides described it as colloquial and less appropriate in formal writing, by 2020 most style guides accepted the singular they as a personal pronoun."
    Wikipedia also claims that there is a real possibility Nazareth didn't exist until the 1940s, that there is doubt as to whether Richard III murdered his nephews, and that probability and frequency are the same thing.

    Articles depend on the cranks who write them, and most Wikipedia editors especially on controversial subjects are now cranks.

    The citation for that paragraph is an OED piece that I noted above makes a very doubtful claim indeed and is stretching the evidence past breaking point.

    I must admit, I'm surprised people are so adamant that we support bad grammar rather than trying to resolve the problem. I should have remembered PB loves a pointless discussion :smile:
    It's only bad grammar if you want to impose a rule which is not necessary and delcare non adherence as 'bad'. Examples have been provided of where it even makes more sense than using an alternative.

    If a 'rule' is not necessary we don't need to retain it, there isn't a law to keep archaic (or pseudo archaic) rules of expression, language evolves - words change meaning, expressions change, and how we structure things change.

    Why some people think grammar 'rules' alone must be fixed in time forever I have not the slightest idea.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,380

    Coffey has a PhD in Chemistry and works like a trooper. She'll be fine.

    Kwarteng is an ex Kings Scholar and a brainbox. He'll be fine.

    Suella Braverman is absolutely lovely in person but appears to have gone off the deep end in recent years. She'll almost certainly fail at Home Secretary, which is a horrible job anyway. For her political career to survive she has to stop the boats. I have no confidence.

    Kwasi is obviously very smart.
    On paper, he looks great.

    The problem is that he seems to have been a dud in BEIS.

    The fact that he has shagged the new PM (or vice versa) adds a interesting frisson perhaps not seems since James I.

    I’ll be watching with interest.
    Ruddy hell!

    Are we sure about this? Are OGH's legal team sure about this?
    I am concerned about the allegations and have asked for a link as I know Truss had affair but that was with Mark Field

    Not sure OGH would be impressed
    An allegation is a claim or assertion that someone has done something illegal or wrong,

    It is not against the law to have sex. This can't possibly be actionable.

    Whether it is true or not is another matter.
    Are you sure about that? Surely at the very least it is potentially a civil offence. What is to stop you accusing me of being Andrew RT Davies's bitch if I can't sue your arse?
    Libel is "a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation". It does not need to refer to breaking the law.
    So, the question is does: the suggestion (whether true or not) that Kwasi had an affair with Liz tend to damage either of their reputations.

    I don't see how it does.
    Their partners might take umbrage. More seriously, it would imply that he had only got the job by sleeping his way to it rather than through talent, and that WOULD be damaging. Also, the fact that it's not true makes it pretty unpleasant.
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    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,694
    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    Please don’t send JRM to Business

    Please don’t send JRM to Business

    Please don’t send JRM to Business

    I have some bad news for you.
    Every appointment as trailed so far. 🫣
    Remember "She's just dressing bonkers right to win the party election. As soon as that's over, she'll tack to the centre-right to win with the public" thing?

    What we saw is what we're going to get.

    🙀 . .
    A cartoon cat variant of 😩 Weary Face. Its expression more closely resembles 😱 Face Screaming in Fear. Depicted as yellow on major platforms. Weary Cat was approved as part of Unicode 6.0 in 2010 under the name “Weary Cat Face” and added to Emoji 1.0 in 2015.

    Could you simplify your emojis pls?
    🥱 . .
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    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Well, that's a shit job.
    Yes, Mordaunt so far the only Cabinet Appointment who was supporting another candidate other than Truss by the final MPs round (as she was another candidate) and she gets the least powerful role so far. Telling.

    Still not a single Sunak supporter appointed to Truss' Cabinet despite Rishi getting 38% of Tory MPs votes and 43% of Tory members votes
    And didn't PM-not-PM very visibly put herself in Team Truss for the final stage?

    How long did it take Maggie to go this far?
    You could argue that, even at the end, she had people like Hurd and Clarke in her cabinet.
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    IshmaelZ said:

    Coffey has a PhD in Chemistry and works like a trooper. She'll be fine.

    Kwarteng is an ex Kings Scholar and a brainbox. He'll be fine.

    Suella Braverman is absolutely lovely in person but appears to have gone off the deep end in recent years. She'll almost certainly fail at Home Secretary, which is a horrible job anyway. For her political career to survive she has to stop the boats. I have no confidence.

    Kwasi is obviously very smart.
    On paper, he looks great.

    The problem is that he seems to have been a dud in BEIS.

    The fact that he has shagged the new PM (or vice versa) adds a interesting frisson perhaps not seems since James I.

    I’ll be watching with interest.
    Ruddy hell!

    Are we sure about this? Are OGH's legal team sure about this?
    I am concerned about the allegations and have asked for a link as I know Truss had affair but that was with Mark Field

    Not sure OGH would be impressed
    An allegation is a claim or assertion that someone has done something illegal or wrong,

    It is not against the law to have sex. This can't possibly be actionable.

    Whether it is true or not is another matter.
    Are you sure about that? Surely at the very least it is potentially a civil offence. What is to stop you accusing me of being Andrew RT Davies's bitch if I can't sue your arse?
    Libel is "a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation". It does not need to refer to breaking the law.
    I really cannot believe he has not retracted it yet
    https://twitter.com/mi6rogue/status/1289820182269976576/photo/1

    16 up from the bottom

    I don't believe a word of it, natch, but you asked for a link. This is a link.
    WTF is this list??
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    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
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    nico679nico679 Posts: 5,112
    Leon said:

    Coverage of immigration is insanely poor

    “Suella Braverman: home secretary set to take even harder line on migration”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/06/suella-braverman-home-secretary-set-to-take-even-harder-line-on-migration?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    “Even harder line”.

    From that you’d believe we are basically North Korea. Admitting no one. But in fact the UK handed out 1 MILLION visas last year and we have one of the most liberal migration regimes on earth. Plus the boat people

    It’s farcical

    Nothing worse than someone who is the child of immigrants being anti-immigrant and follows on from Patel ! Braverman will be even worse than Patel which is saying something.
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    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,694
    Good to see you back on message
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,139
    Inaugural winner of the 'Cabinet Member photo which most looks like he wants to eat your liver with a Chianti' award. It's the eyes.

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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ydoethur said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/09/06/teacher-jailed-row-use-pronouns-transgender-pupil/

    A teacher in Ireland has been jailed for refusing to use the pronoun 'they' to refer to a pupil who identified as neither male nor female.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of the gender identity debate, 'they' is a plural noun and totally unsuitable for referring to a person.
    If it's wrong, it's been wrong for a long time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

    "This use of singular they emerged by the 14th century, about a century after the plural they. It has been commonly employed in everyday English ever since and has gained currency in official contexts. Singular they has been criticised since the mid-18th century by prescriptive commentators who consider it an error. Its continued use in modern standard English has become more common and formally accepted with the move toward gender-neutral language. Though some early-21st-century style guides described it as colloquial and less appropriate in formal writing, by 2020 most style guides accepted the singular they as a personal pronoun."
    Wikipedia also claims that there is a real possibility Nazareth didn't exist until the 1940s, that there is doubt as to whether Richard III murdered his nephews, and that probability and frequency are the same thing.

    Articles depend on the cranks who write them, and most Wikipedia editors especially on controversial subjects are now cranks.

    The citation for that paragraph is an OED piece that I noted above makes a very doubtful claim indeed and is stretching the evidence past breaking point.

    I must admit, I'm surprised people are so adamant that we support bad grammar rather than trying to resolve the problem. I should have remembered PB loves a pointless discussion :smile:
    Still HYUFDing away? Take the rest of the evening off. have a drink. you know as well as I do that "Each of {n where n is the biggest number in the entire world ever} is a singular. And it is awfully meta to be attacking the source because the proposition in the source is bulletproof.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,139
    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    Coverage of immigration is insanely poor

    “Suella Braverman: home secretary set to take even harder line on migration”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/06/suella-braverman-home-secretary-set-to-take-even-harder-line-on-migration?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    “Even harder line”.

    From that you’d believe we are basically North Korea. Admitting no one. But in fact the UK handed out 1 MILLION visas last year and we have one of the most liberal migration regimes on earth. Plus the boat people

    It’s farcical

    Nothing worse than someone who is the child of immigrants being anti-immigrant...
    I don't see what's bad about that. People should not be expected to hold certain opinions due to their background.
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Well, that's a shit job.
    Yes, Mordaunt so far the only Cabinet Appointment who was supporting another candidate other than Truss by the final MPs round (as she was another candidate) and she gets the least powerful role so far. Telling.

    Still not a single Sunak supporter appointed to Truss' Cabinet despite Rishi getting 38% of Tory MPs votes and 43% of Tory members votes
    And didn't PM-not-PM very visibly put herself in Team Truss for the final stage?

    How long did it take Maggie to go this far?
    You could argue that, even at the end, she had people like Hurd and Clarke in her cabinet.
    Arguably not fast enough.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,655
    edited September 2022
    RH1992 said:

    Johnny Mercer's wife is not happy with her husband's sacking.

    He asked her ‘why would you do this, who is going to be better at this role than me, which of your mates gets the job, you promised a meritocracy?’
    PM - I can’t answer that Johnny

    This system stinks & treats people appallingly

    Best person I know sacked by an imbecile @trussliz


    https://twitter.com/mercer_felicity/status/1567229997881987078?t=sA8A5hCeJFyLgEoGfMi30Q&s=19

    She's alienated all bar around 40% of the PCP before she's even made a start.

    What's worse is that she's relying mostly on people who have shown themselves utterly unfit to hold any sort of executive power.

    She's making exactly the mistake Corbyn did in 2016, but from the start of her leadership and while in government.

    This is going to end both badly and quickly.

    I think the one real hope left to avert catastrophe is she's defeated on a budget or the Queen's Speech and calls an election.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,694
    RH1992 said:

    Johnny Mercer's wife is not happy with her husband's sacking.

    He asked her ‘why would you do this, who is going to be better at this role than me, which of your mates gets the job, you promised a meritocracy?’
    PM - I can’t answer that Johnny

    This system stinks & treats people appallingly

    Best person I know sacked by an imbecile @trussliz


    https://twitter.com/mercer_felicity/status/1567229997881987078?t=sA8A5hCeJFyLgEoGfMi30Q&s=19

    Night of the Long Nail File.

    Is she messing this up by making too many unnecessary enemies?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,881

    Coffey has a PhD in Chemistry and works like a trooper. She'll be fine.

    Kwarteng is an ex Kings Scholar and a brainbox. He'll be fine.

    Suella Braverman is absolutely lovely in person but appears to have gone off the deep end in recent years. She'll almost certainly fail at Home Secretary, which is a horrible job anyway. For her political career to survive she has to stop the boats. I have no confidence.

    Kwasi is obviously very smart.
    On paper, he looks great.

    The problem is that he seems to have been a dud in BEIS.

    The fact that he has shagged the new PM (or vice versa) adds a interesting frisson perhaps not seems since James I.

    I’ll be watching with interest.
    Ruddy hell!

    Are we sure about this? Are OGH's legal team sure about this?
    I am concerned about the allegations and have asked for a link as I know Truss had affair but that was with Mark Field

    Not sure OGH would be impressed
    An allegation is a claim or assertion that someone has done something illegal or wrong,

    It is not against the law to have sex. This can't possibly be actionable.

    Whether it is true or not is another matter.
    Are you sure about that? Surely at the very least it is potentially a civil offence. What is to stop you accusing me of being Andrew RT Davies's bitch if I can't sue your arse?
    Libel is "a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation". It does not need to refer to breaking the law.
    So, the question is does: the suggestion (whether true or not) that Kwasi had an affair with Liz tend to damage either of their reputations.

    I don't see how it does.
    Their partners might take umbrage. More seriously, it would imply that he had only got the job by sleeping his way to it rather than through talent, and that WOULD be damaging. Also, the fact that it's not true makes it pretty unpleasant.
    Er……
This discussion has been closed.