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Just over a week till Truss moves into Number 10 – politicalbetting.com

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  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 21,494

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 2,644

    Truss does give off worrying indications of being woefully out of her depth. Johnson threw red meat at Tory neanderthals but was usually able to do it with a wink that suggested he wasn’t being entirely serious. Truss seems to believe what she says. Hopefully, she doesn’t.

    In happier news, there’s a definite whiff of autumn in the early morning air. The sun is softer, there’s a dewy sheen on the fields and a chill in the air. Summer is ending. The best time of year approaches.

    I'd be more inclined to believe that Truss's recent comments could be disregarded if she hadn't continued with the same line long after the leadership contest was effectively over with the vast majority of Tory members having already voted.
    There is no big reveal of a "fooled you!" plan to do the exact opposite of what she has said eleventy times on the election tour. She sincerely believes that tax cuts and removing the green levy are the right approach and that handouts and "bungs" of large amounts of money is not the right approach.

    Unlike the Johnson government, the Truss government will be ideological, with an actual belief system. I have no doubt that her hand will be forced to do *something* but it won't be a £100bn bazooka and it won't be a windfall tax handed back to consumers.

    So having let people suffer for months in the fear of what is coming, now having said "wait and see", and then with hugely inadequate and wrongly targeted small change coming her government will revert to her usual rhetoric. Workshy. Lazy. Get a better job. Because that is what she believes.
    Why should it be a £100bn bazooka?

    That you will determine whatever Truss does is insufficient is fairly inevitable, but to demand £100bn is just ridiculous.
    The £100 billion number comes from what the energy companies say is going to be required. Now that could just be ramping but it certainly isn't the case that RP has just picked a huge number out of the air. Indeed I used exactly the same number yesterday to point out how inadequate the Truss VAT plans were.
    It will be what is required if you think the taxpayer (or future taxpayers more likely) should 100% absorb the cost of what is coming rather than people absorbing some of it themselves via belt tightening and using less fuel.

    Personally I'm not completely sold on the idea that our children when they're taxpayers should be facing the bill for what people don't want to pay for today.

    Some support is essential, absolutely, but somewhere between "nothing" and "everything" is surely more appropriate. Where though, is an important thing to think about.
    Has your opinion changed as to what Truss’s answer is?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 27,608

    Truss does give off worrying indications of being woefully out of her depth. Johnson threw red meat at Tory neanderthals but was usually able to do it with a wink that suggested he wasn’t being entirely serious. Truss seems to believe what she says. Hopefully, she doesn’t.

    In happier news, there’s a definite whiff of autumn in the early morning air. The sun is softer, there’s a dewy sheen on the fields and a chill in the air. Summer is ending. The best time of year approaches.

    I'd be more inclined to believe that Truss's recent comments could be disregarded if she hadn't continued with the same line long after the leadership contest was effectively over with the vast majority of Tory members having already voted.
    There is no big reveal of a "fooled you!" plan to do the exact opposite of what she has said eleventy times on the election tour. She sincerely believes that tax cuts and removing the green levy are the right approach and that handouts and "bungs" of large amounts of money is not the right approach.

    Unlike the Johnson government, the Truss government will be ideological, with an actual belief system. I have no doubt that her hand will be forced to do *something* but it won't be a £100bn bazooka and it won't be a windfall tax handed back to consumers.

    So having let people suffer for months in the fear of what is coming, now having said "wait and see", and then with hugely inadequate and wrongly targeted small change coming her government will revert to her usual rhetoric. Workshy. Lazy. Get a better job. Because that is what she believes.
    Why should it be a £100bn bazooka?

    That you will determine whatever Truss does is insufficient is fairly inevitable, but to demand £100bn is just ridiculous.
    The £100 billion number comes from what the energy companies say is going to be required. Now that could just be ramping but it certainly isn't the case that RP has just picked a huge number out of the air. Indeed I used exactly the same number yesterday to point out how inadequate the Truss VAT plans were.
    It will be what is required if you think the taxpayer (or future taxpayers more likely) should 100% absorb the cost of what is coming rather than people absorbing some of it themselves via belt tightening and using less fuel.

    Personally I'm not completely sold on the idea that our children when they're taxpayers should be facing the bill for what people don't want to pay for today.

    Some support is essential, absolutely, but somewhere between "nothing" and "everything" is surely more appropriate. Where though, is an important thing to think about.
    Oh I agree with you. I was just pointing out that the figure RP used was well established as the minimum (not the maximum) that will be needed to protect household energy bills this winter. Now I have already set out what I think should be happening in terms of energy company profits (there should be none) so I by no means believe it should all be burdened on the taxpayer, but again, that doesn't change the actual numbers for the amount of money that needs to be found from somewhere.
  • This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    If families turn the heating off, or reduce the amount of heating they use, then the amount of gas consumed goes down, so reducing demand to meet supply so we don't run out.

    That's precisely what should be happening.

    That you want to stick your head in the sand and have the Government make the big, bad energy prices go away is not grown up or sensible politics and is putting the cost on future taxpayers.
  • Truss does give off worrying indications of being woefully out of her depth. Johnson threw red meat at Tory neanderthals but was usually able to do it with a wink that suggested he wasn’t being entirely serious. Truss seems to believe what she says. Hopefully, she doesn’t.

    In happier news, there’s a definite whiff of autumn in the early morning air. The sun is softer, there’s a dewy sheen on the fields and a chill in the air. Summer is ending. The best time of year approaches.

    I'd be more inclined to believe that Truss's recent comments could be disregarded if she hadn't continued with the same line long after the leadership contest was effectively over with the vast majority of Tory members having already voted.
    There is no big reveal of a "fooled you!" plan to do the exact opposite of what she has said eleventy times on the election tour. She sincerely believes that tax cuts and removing the green levy are the right approach and that handouts and "bungs" of large amounts of money is not the right approach.

    Unlike the Johnson government, the Truss government will be ideological, with an actual belief system. I have no doubt that her hand will be forced to do *something* but it won't be a £100bn bazooka and it won't be a windfall tax handed back to consumers.

    So having let people suffer for months in the fear of what is coming, now having said "wait and see", and then with hugely inadequate and wrongly targeted small change coming her government will revert to her usual rhetoric. Workshy. Lazy. Get a better job. Because that is what she believes.
    Why should it be a £100bn bazooka?

    That you will determine whatever Truss does is insufficient is fairly inevitable, but to demand £100bn is just ridiculous.
    The £100 billion number comes from what the energy companies say is going to be required. Now that could just be ramping but it certainly isn't the case that RP has just picked a huge number out of the air. Indeed I used exactly the same number yesterday to point out how inadequate the Truss VAT plans were.
    It will be what is required if you think the taxpayer (or future taxpayers more likely) should 100% absorb the cost of what is coming rather than people absorbing some of it themselves via belt tightening and using less fuel.

    Personally I'm not completely sold on the idea that our children when they're taxpayers should be facing the bill for what people don't want to pay for today.

    Some support is essential, absolutely, but somewhere between "nothing" and "everything" is surely more appropriate. Where though, is an important thing to think about.
    Has your opinion changed as to what Truss’s answer is?
    I've said all along I have no idea what Truss's answer is, so no its not changed.

    I expect she'll do more than she's currently committed to, but whatever more she does announce I have no doubt people will say its insufficient. It will never be enough.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,886

    Truss does give off worrying indications of being woefully out of her depth. Johnson threw red meat at Tory neanderthals but was usually able to do it with a wink that suggested he wasn’t being entirely serious. Truss seems to believe what she says. Hopefully, she doesn’t.

    In happier news, there’s a definite whiff of autumn in the early morning air. The sun is softer, there’s a dewy sheen on the fields and a chill in the air. Summer is ending. The best time of year approaches.

    I'd be more inclined to believe that Truss's recent comments could be disregarded if she hadn't continued with the same line long after the leadership contest was effectively over with the vast majority of Tory members having already voted.
    There is no big reveal of a "fooled you!" plan to do the exact opposite of what she has said eleventy times on the election tour. She sincerely believes that tax cuts and removing the green levy are the right approach and that handouts and "bungs" of large amounts of money is not the right approach.

    Unlike the Johnson government, the Truss government will be ideological, with an actual belief system. I have no doubt that her hand will be forced to do *something* but it won't be a £100bn bazooka and it won't be a windfall tax handed back to consumers.

    So having let people suffer for months in the fear of what is coming, now having said "wait and see", and then with hugely inadequate and wrongly targeted small change coming her government will revert to her usual rhetoric. Workshy. Lazy. Get a better job. Because that is what she believes.
    Why should it be a £100bn bazooka?

    That you will determine whatever Truss does is insufficient is fairly inevitable, but to demand £100bn is just ridiculous.
    The £100 billion number comes from what the energy companies say is going to be required. Now that could just be ramping but it certainly isn't the case that RP has just picked a huge number out of the air. Indeed I used exactly the same number yesterday to point out how inadequate the Truss VAT plans were.
    It will be what is required if you think the taxpayer (or future taxpayers more likely) should 100% absorb the cost of what is coming rather than people absorbing some of it themselves via belt tightening and using less fuel.

    Personally I'm not completely sold on the idea that our children when they're taxpayers should be facing the bill for what people don't want to pay for today.

    Some support is essential, absolutely, but somewhere between "nothing" and "everything" is surely more appropriate. Where though, is an important thing to think about.
    If the government are going to subsidise fully the increase in price, then there’s going to have to be rationing - because the supply is going to be down 15-20%. That’s why the price is going up.

    Only by allowing the price to go higher, will residents and businesses be incentivised to reduce their energy requirements this winter. The middle classes and large businesses are going to have to deal with it.
  • Sandpit said:

    Truss does give off worrying indications of being woefully out of her depth. Johnson threw red meat at Tory neanderthals but was usually able to do it with a wink that suggested he wasn’t being entirely serious. Truss seems to believe what she says. Hopefully, she doesn’t.

    In happier news, there’s a definite whiff of autumn in the early morning air. The sun is softer, there’s a dewy sheen on the fields and a chill in the air. Summer is ending. The best time of year approaches.

    I'd be more inclined to believe that Truss's recent comments could be disregarded if she hadn't continued with the same line long after the leadership contest was effectively over with the vast majority of Tory members having already voted.
    There is no big reveal of a "fooled you!" plan to do the exact opposite of what she has said eleventy times on the election tour. She sincerely believes that tax cuts and removing the green levy are the right approach and that handouts and "bungs" of large amounts of money is not the right approach.

    Unlike the Johnson government, the Truss government will be ideological, with an actual belief system. I have no doubt that her hand will be forced to do *something* but it won't be a £100bn bazooka and it won't be a windfall tax handed back to consumers.

    So having let people suffer for months in the fear of what is coming, now having said "wait and see", and then with hugely inadequate and wrongly targeted small change coming her government will revert to her usual rhetoric. Workshy. Lazy. Get a better job. Because that is what she believes.
    Why should it be a £100bn bazooka?

    That you will determine whatever Truss does is insufficient is fairly inevitable, but to demand £100bn is just ridiculous.
    The £100 billion number comes from what the energy companies say is going to be required. Now that could just be ramping but it certainly isn't the case that RP has just picked a huge number out of the air. Indeed I used exactly the same number yesterday to point out how inadequate the Truss VAT plans were.
    It will be what is required if you think the taxpayer (or future taxpayers more likely) should 100% absorb the cost of what is coming rather than people absorbing some of it themselves via belt tightening and using less fuel.

    Personally I'm not completely sold on the idea that our children when they're taxpayers should be facing the bill for what people don't want to pay for today.

    Some support is essential, absolutely, but somewhere between "nothing" and "everything" is surely more appropriate. Where though, is an important thing to think about.
    If the government are going to subsidise fully the increase in price, then there’s going to have to be rationing - because the supply is going to be down 15-20%. That’s why the price is going up.

    Only by allowing the price to go higher, will residents and businesses be incentivised to reduce their energy requirements this winter. The middle classes and large businesses are going to have to deal with it.
    Indeed.

    People like Peston and Rochdale shrieking "if you don't commit £100bn then people will use less fuel" - if people don't use less fuel, we'll not have enough. We need people to use less fuel, the entire continent does, and that will happen because of rising prices.

    Rising prices are a feature not a bug of the system. If there's to be support that support should not be suppressing prices as if it does suppress prices then people will just consume more fuel.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 27,608
    ydoethur said:

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    There is another, possibly even more serious problem - what to do about small businesses.

    And they need certainty now or they'll just be shutting up shop in advance of the winter.

    Even Peston has noticed this is a problem.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-08-28/where-is-the-help-for-businesses-being-crippled-by-the-energy-bills-crisis?a
    I can easily envisage many shops and businesses moving to a 3 or 4 day week over the winter as opposed to the normal 6 day week. Which is going to do Government revenues no good at all.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 21,494

    Truss does give off worrying indications of being woefully out of her depth. Johnson threw red meat at Tory neanderthals but was usually able to do it with a wink that suggested he wasn’t being entirely serious. Truss seems to believe what she says. Hopefully, she doesn’t.

    In happier news, there’s a definite whiff of autumn in the early morning air. The sun is softer, there’s a dewy sheen on the fields and a chill in the air. Summer is ending. The best time of year approaches.

    I'd be more inclined to believe that Truss's recent comments could be disregarded if she hadn't continued with the same line long after the leadership contest was effectively over with the vast majority of Tory members having already voted.
    There is no big reveal of a "fooled you!" plan to do the exact opposite of what she has said eleventy times on the election tour. She sincerely believes that tax cuts and removing the green levy are the right approach and that handouts and "bungs" of large amounts of money is not the right approach.

    Unlike the Johnson government, the Truss government will be ideological, with an actual belief system. I have no doubt that her hand will be forced to do *something* but it won't be a £100bn bazooka and it won't be a windfall tax handed back to consumers.

    So having let people suffer for months in the fear of what is coming, now having said "wait and see", and then with hugely inadequate and wrongly targeted small change coming her government will revert to her usual rhetoric. Workshy. Lazy. Get a better job. Because that is what she believes.
    Why should it be a £100bn bazooka?

    That you will determine whatever Truss does is insufficient is fairly inevitable, but to demand £100bn is just ridiculous.
    The £100 billion number comes from what the energy companies say is going to be required. Now that could just be ramping but it certainly isn't the case that RP has just picked a huge number out of the air. Indeed I used exactly the same number yesterday to point out how inadequate the Truss VAT plans were.
    It will be what is required if you think the taxpayer (or future taxpayers more likely) should 100% absorb the cost of what is coming rather than people absorbing some of it themselves via belt tightening and using less fuel.

    Personally I'm not completely sold on the idea that our children when they're taxpayers should be facing the bill for what people don't want to pay for today.

    Some support is essential, absolutely, but somewhere between "nothing" and "everything" is surely more appropriate. Where though, is an important thing to think about.
    Oh I agree with you. I was just pointing out that the figure RP used was well established as the minimum (not the maximum) that will be needed to protect household energy bills this winter. Now I have already set out what I think should be happening in terms of energy company profits (there should be none) so I by no means believe it should all be burdened on the taxpayer, but again, that doesn't change the actual numbers for the amount of money that needs to be found from somewhere.
    I think it's also worth picking apart BR's choice of words when he describes the energy bills calamity as "what people don't want to pay for today"

    It isn't that they don't want to pay. It is that the can't pay. The bills being presented being in some cases larger than their household income.

    And it isn't just families. Business is also sliding into the abyss. Another local business - a long-standing family chippy - has just closed because the newly imposed energy bill means they lose money every time they switch the fryer on.

    One or two such examples doesn't make for a problem. But when its tens of thousands? BR prattles on about the market all the time - the collapse of the hospitality industry is not something "the market" should allow, nor will "the market" reopen most of these businesses after the event.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 27,608
    Sandpit said:

    Truss does give off worrying indications of being woefully out of her depth. Johnson threw red meat at Tory neanderthals but was usually able to do it with a wink that suggested he wasn’t being entirely serious. Truss seems to believe what she says. Hopefully, she doesn’t.

    In happier news, there’s a definite whiff of autumn in the early morning air. The sun is softer, there’s a dewy sheen on the fields and a chill in the air. Summer is ending. The best time of year approaches.

    I'd be more inclined to believe that Truss's recent comments could be disregarded if she hadn't continued with the same line long after the leadership contest was effectively over with the vast majority of Tory members having already voted.
    There is no big reveal of a "fooled you!" plan to do the exact opposite of what she has said eleventy times on the election tour. She sincerely believes that tax cuts and removing the green levy are the right approach and that handouts and "bungs" of large amounts of money is not the right approach.

    Unlike the Johnson government, the Truss government will be ideological, with an actual belief system. I have no doubt that her hand will be forced to do *something* but it won't be a £100bn bazooka and it won't be a windfall tax handed back to consumers.

    So having let people suffer for months in the fear of what is coming, now having said "wait and see", and then with hugely inadequate and wrongly targeted small change coming her government will revert to her usual rhetoric. Workshy. Lazy. Get a better job. Because that is what she believes.
    Why should it be a £100bn bazooka?

    That you will determine whatever Truss does is insufficient is fairly inevitable, but to demand £100bn is just ridiculous.
    The £100 billion number comes from what the energy companies say is going to be required. Now that could just be ramping but it certainly isn't the case that RP has just picked a huge number out of the air. Indeed I used exactly the same number yesterday to point out how inadequate the Truss VAT plans were.
    It will be what is required if you think the taxpayer (or future taxpayers more likely) should 100% absorb the cost of what is coming rather than people absorbing some of it themselves via belt tightening and using less fuel.

    Personally I'm not completely sold on the idea that our children when they're taxpayers should be facing the bill for what people don't want to pay for today.

    Some support is essential, absolutely, but somewhere between "nothing" and "everything" is surely more appropriate. Where though, is an important thing to think about.
    If the government are going to subsidise fully the increase in price, then there’s going to have to be rationing - because the supply is going to be down 15-20%. That’s why the price is going up.

    Only by allowing the price to go higher, will residents and businesses be incentivised to reduce their energy requirements this winter. The middle classes and large businesses are going to have to deal with it.
    Businesses will deal with it by shutting down. Indeed they already are.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,756

    ydoethur said:

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    There is another, possibly even more serious problem - what to do about small businesses.

    And they need certainty now or they'll just be shutting up shop in advance of the winter.

    Even Peston has noticed this is a problem.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-08-28/where-is-the-help-for-businesses-being-crippled-by-the-energy-bills-crisis?a
    I can easily envisage many shops and businesses moving to a 3 or 4 day week over the winter as opposed to the normal 6 day week. Which is going to do Government revenues no good at all.
    Or people's income. Often people on very low incomes already.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 8,876

    Sandpit said:

    Truss does give off worrying indications of being woefully out of her depth. Johnson threw red meat at Tory neanderthals but was usually able to do it with a wink that suggested he wasn’t being entirely serious. Truss seems to believe what she says. Hopefully, she doesn’t.

    In happier news, there’s a definite whiff of autumn in the early morning air. The sun is softer, there’s a dewy sheen on the fields and a chill in the air. Summer is ending. The best time of year approaches.

    I'd be more inclined to believe that Truss's recent comments could be disregarded if she hadn't continued with the same line long after the leadership contest was effectively over with the vast majority of Tory members having already voted.
    There is no big reveal of a "fooled you!" plan to do the exact opposite of what she has said eleventy times on the election tour. She sincerely believes that tax cuts and removing the green levy are the right approach and that handouts and "bungs" of large amounts of money is not the right approach.

    Unlike the Johnson government, the Truss government will be ideological, with an actual belief system. I have no doubt that her hand will be forced to do *something* but it won't be a £100bn bazooka and it won't be a windfall tax handed back to consumers.

    So having let people suffer for months in the fear of what is coming, now having said "wait and see", and then with hugely inadequate and wrongly targeted small change coming her government will revert to her usual rhetoric. Workshy. Lazy. Get a better job. Because that is what she believes.
    Why should it be a £100bn bazooka?

    That you will determine whatever Truss does is insufficient is fairly inevitable, but to demand £100bn is just ridiculous.
    The £100 billion number comes from what the energy companies say is going to be required. Now that could just be ramping but it certainly isn't the case that RP has just picked a huge number out of the air. Indeed I used exactly the same number yesterday to point out how inadequate the Truss VAT plans were.
    It will be what is required if you think the taxpayer (or future taxpayers more likely) should 100% absorb the cost of what is coming rather than people absorbing some of it themselves via belt tightening and using less fuel.

    Personally I'm not completely sold on the idea that our children when they're taxpayers should be facing the bill for what people don't want to pay for today.

    Some support is essential, absolutely, but somewhere between "nothing" and "everything" is surely more appropriate. Where though, is an important thing to think about.
    If the government are going to subsidise fully the increase in price, then there’s going to have to be rationing - because the supply is going to be down 15-20%. That’s why the price is going up.

    Only by allowing the price to go higher, will residents and businesses be incentivised to reduce their energy requirements this winter. The middle classes and large businesses are going to have to deal with it.
    Indeed.

    People like Peston and Rochdale shrieking "if you don't commit £100bn then people will use less fuel" - if people don't use less fuel, we'll not have enough. We need people to use less fuel, the entire continent does, and that will happen because of rising prices.

    Rising prices are a feature not a bug of the system. If there's to be support that support should not be suppressing prices as if it does suppress prices then people will just consume more fuel.
    Indeed. The market is infallible. And the fact people are ignoring is that the more poor people who freeze to death, the more fuel consumption will decrease in the future, and the faster proper people can get back to normal levels of consumption at normal prices.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 21,494
    Sandpit said:

    Truss does give off worrying indications of being woefully out of her depth. Johnson threw red meat at Tory neanderthals but was usually able to do it with a wink that suggested he wasn’t being entirely serious. Truss seems to believe what she says. Hopefully, she doesn’t.

    In happier news, there’s a definite whiff of autumn in the early morning air. The sun is softer, there’s a dewy sheen on the fields and a chill in the air. Summer is ending. The best time of year approaches.

    I'd be more inclined to believe that Truss's recent comments could be disregarded if she hadn't continued with the same line long after the leadership contest was effectively over with the vast majority of Tory members having already voted.
    There is no big reveal of a "fooled you!" plan to do the exact opposite of what she has said eleventy times on the election tour. She sincerely believes that tax cuts and removing the green levy are the right approach and that handouts and "bungs" of large amounts of money is not the right approach.

    Unlike the Johnson government, the Truss government will be ideological, with an actual belief system. I have no doubt that her hand will be forced to do *something* but it won't be a £100bn bazooka and it won't be a windfall tax handed back to consumers.

    So having let people suffer for months in the fear of what is coming, now having said "wait and see", and then with hugely inadequate and wrongly targeted small change coming her government will revert to her usual rhetoric. Workshy. Lazy. Get a better job. Because that is what she believes.
    Why should it be a £100bn bazooka?

    That you will determine whatever Truss does is insufficient is fairly inevitable, but to demand £100bn is just ridiculous.
    The £100 billion number comes from what the energy companies say is going to be required. Now that could just be ramping but it certainly isn't the case that RP has just picked a huge number out of the air. Indeed I used exactly the same number yesterday to point out how inadequate the Truss VAT plans were.
    It will be what is required if you think the taxpayer (or future taxpayers more likely) should 100% absorb the cost of what is coming rather than people absorbing some of it themselves via belt tightening and using less fuel.

    Personally I'm not completely sold on the idea that our children when they're taxpayers should be facing the bill for what people don't want to pay for today.

    Some support is essential, absolutely, but somewhere between "nothing" and "everything" is surely more appropriate. Where though, is an important thing to think about.
    If the government are going to subsidise fully the increase in price, then there’s going to have to be rationing - because the supply is going to be down 15-20%. That’s why the price is going up.

    Only by allowing the price to go higher, will residents and businesses be incentivised to reduce their energy requirements this winter. The middle classes and large businesses are going to have to deal with it.
    I know you are a long long way away so its probably easy to type theory and ignore reality.

    This winter we are going to see blackouts AND people freezing and starving. The price rise isn't there to fix our reckless disregard for the need to generate electricity so lets cheer it on, it will literally kill people in their homes.

    You won't freeze to death out there, people will over here.
  • ydoethur said:

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    There is another, possibly even more serious problem - what to do about small businesses.

    And they need certainty now or they'll just be shutting up shop in advance of the winter.

    Even Peston has noticed this is a problem.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-08-28/where-is-the-help-for-businesses-being-crippled-by-the-energy-bills-crisis?a
    I can easily envisage many shops and businesses moving to a 3 or 4 day week over the winter as opposed to the normal 6 day week. Which is going to do Government revenues no good at all.
    But it will reduce the amount of fuel consumed, thus ensuring that we don't have blackouts due to a lack of energy.

    There's a shortage of supply in the market. That is driving the price rise. We need a shrinkage of demand to cope, which the price rise will encourage, or we won't have enough supplies - nobody on the continent will. The entire continent is trying to eliminate 1/6th of all consumption in the space of a year.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,482

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Thank goodness we left the EU, no power cuts for Brexit Britain.

    We don't need a Labour magic money tree, and now we have left the EU we have the sovereign ability to reduce half the VAT revenue to the Exchequer. Tax revenue collection is so passe.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,886

    Sandpit said:

    Truss does give off worrying indications of being woefully out of her depth. Johnson threw red meat at Tory neanderthals but was usually able to do it with a wink that suggested he wasn’t being entirely serious. Truss seems to believe what she says. Hopefully, she doesn’t.

    In happier news, there’s a definite whiff of autumn in the early morning air. The sun is softer, there’s a dewy sheen on the fields and a chill in the air. Summer is ending. The best time of year approaches.

    I'd be more inclined to believe that Truss's recent comments could be disregarded if she hadn't continued with the same line long after the leadership contest was effectively over with the vast majority of Tory members having already voted.
    There is no big reveal of a "fooled you!" plan to do the exact opposite of what she has said eleventy times on the election tour. She sincerely believes that tax cuts and removing the green levy are the right approach and that handouts and "bungs" of large amounts of money is not the right approach.

    Unlike the Johnson government, the Truss government will be ideological, with an actual belief system. I have no doubt that her hand will be forced to do *something* but it won't be a £100bn bazooka and it won't be a windfall tax handed back to consumers.

    So having let people suffer for months in the fear of what is coming, now having said "wait and see", and then with hugely inadequate and wrongly targeted small change coming her government will revert to her usual rhetoric. Workshy. Lazy. Get a better job. Because that is what she believes.
    Why should it be a £100bn bazooka?

    That you will determine whatever Truss does is insufficient is fairly inevitable, but to demand £100bn is just ridiculous.
    The £100 billion number comes from what the energy companies say is going to be required. Now that could just be ramping but it certainly isn't the case that RP has just picked a huge number out of the air. Indeed I used exactly the same number yesterday to point out how inadequate the Truss VAT plans were.
    It will be what is required if you think the taxpayer (or future taxpayers more likely) should 100% absorb the cost of what is coming rather than people absorbing some of it themselves via belt tightening and using less fuel.

    Personally I'm not completely sold on the idea that our children when they're taxpayers should be facing the bill for what people don't want to pay for today.

    Some support is essential, absolutely, but somewhere between "nothing" and "everything" is surely more appropriate. Where though, is an important thing to think about.
    If the government are going to subsidise fully the increase in price, then there’s going to have to be rationing - because the supply is going to be down 15-20%. That’s why the price is going up.

    Only by allowing the price to go higher, will residents and businesses be incentivised to reduce their energy requirements this winter. The middle classes and large businesses are going to have to deal with it.
    Businesses will deal with it by shutting down. Indeed they already are.
    IIRC some of the larger energy users such as factories, have contracts with power companies that let them get partially cut off at periods of high demand, so they move their shifts around when it’s exceptionally cold.

    Yes, there’s likely a need to do something with small businesses, especially in retail and hospitality.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,394

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    If families turn the heating off, or reduce the amount of heating they use, then the amount of gas consumed goes down, so reducing demand to meet supply so we don't run out.

    That's precisely what should be happening.

    That you want to stick your head in the sand and have the Government make the big, bad energy prices go away is not grown up or sensible politics and is putting the cost on future taxpayers.
    We need to comsume less but it should be achieved collectively not simply by jacking up prices so the most vulnerable people do all the adjusting. The poor already consume less energy, it's just not fair to force them to freeze this winter.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,058

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    Thank you for your response

    1) - agreed - the politics of this for the conservatives so far have been shocking

    2) - There is nothing wrong in affirming the help provided so far of 37 billion and of course there has to be a lot more

    3) - According to yesterdays report you need to enjoy your savings with your Tesla as long as they last

    4) - This is tied up with 1) as their navel gazing and idiotic blue on blue feeds that impression

    I expect a lot more than 27% are considering keeping their heat off, or mitigating it with changes in their behaviour, installing energy saving devices and insulation, but it is not wrong to say we all need to drastically change our attitude to energy use and that is the problem if governments just tell the populace they will freeze energy costs as the changes that are really needed in our own behaviour will simply not happen

    There are no simple and easy answers no matter what anybody says
  • This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel
    I'll be charging my EV with 7.5 p/kWh nighttime electricity, fixed the the coming year, which I think is still considerably cheaper than petrol or diesel.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,156
    edited August 29
    PM Truss - Sorry Mike but I have written her off and I don't think I am making a mistake. The Cons are out at the GE imo and my advice is to get in now with this before it becomes obvious to everyone and the value goes.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 7,856
    Sandpit said:

    Truss does give off worrying indications of being woefully out of her depth. Johnson threw red meat at Tory neanderthals but was usually able to do it with a wink that suggested he wasn’t being entirely serious. Truss seems to believe what she says. Hopefully, she doesn’t.

    In happier news, there’s a definite whiff of autumn in the early morning air. The sun is softer, there’s a dewy sheen on the fields and a chill in the air. Summer is ending. The best time of year approaches.

    I'd be more inclined to believe that Truss's recent comments could be disregarded if she hadn't continued with the same line long after the leadership contest was effectively over with the vast majority of Tory members having already voted.
    There is no big reveal of a "fooled you!" plan to do the exact opposite of what she has said eleventy times on the election tour. She sincerely believes that tax cuts and removing the green levy are the right approach and that handouts and "bungs" of large amounts of money is not the right approach.

    Unlike the Johnson government, the Truss government will be ideological, with an actual belief system. I have no doubt that her hand will be forced to do *something* but it won't be a £100bn bazooka and it won't be a windfall tax handed back to consumers.

    So having let people suffer for months in the fear of what is coming, now having said "wait and see", and then with hugely inadequate and wrongly targeted small change coming her government will revert to her usual rhetoric. Workshy. Lazy. Get a better job. Because that is what she believes.
    Why should it be a £100bn bazooka?

    That you will determine whatever Truss does is insufficient is fairly inevitable, but to demand £100bn is just ridiculous.
    The £100 billion number comes from what the energy companies say is going to be required. Now that could just be ramping but it certainly isn't the case that RP has just picked a huge number out of the air. Indeed I used exactly the same number yesterday to point out how inadequate the Truss VAT plans were.
    It will be what is required if you think the taxpayer (or future taxpayers more likely) should 100% absorb the cost of what is coming rather than people absorbing some of it themselves via belt tightening and using less fuel.

    Personally I'm not completely sold on the idea that our children when they're taxpayers should be facing the bill for what people don't want to pay for today.

    Some support is essential, absolutely, but somewhere between "nothing" and "everything" is surely more appropriate. Where though, is an important thing to think about.
    If the government are going to subsidise fully the increase in price, then there’s going to have to be rationing - because the supply is going to be down 15-20%. That’s why the price is going up.

    Only by allowing the price to go higher, will residents and businesses be incentivised to reduce their energy requirements this winter. The middle classes and large businesses are going to have to deal with it.
    Question is whether the free market map is the right one to navigate this crisis.

    We could let the marginal cost of buying energy rise enough to reduce demand- that would certainly work.

    However.

    Some jammy sods have got a fixed rate well below the marginal cost, and very very many people will be totally wiped out if we rely on increased prices to reduce demand. The invisible hand will get there, but maybe with some painful blundering on the way.

    It's similar to the state of UK housing. It doesn't obey the simple economic rules, because the simple economic rules depend on graphs with fairly smooth curves. The reality is multiple overlapping fractals.

    And yes, that means investigating things like rationing and banning certain types of energy consumption over winter. Grim, but maybe less grim than the alternative.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,482

    ydoethur said:

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    There is another, possibly even more serious problem - what to do about small businesses.

    And they need certainty now or they'll just be shutting up shop in advance of the winter.

    Even Peston has noticed this is a problem.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-08-28/where-is-the-help-for-businesses-being-crippled-by-the-energy-bills-crisis?a
    I can easily envisage many shops and businesses moving to a 3 or 4 day week over the winter as opposed to the normal 6 day week. Which is going to do Government revenues no good at all.
    Only half a problem anyway if we make a conscious decision to dispense with collecting half our VAT revenue.

    I don't know why I'm complaining really. A 10% reduction on VAT sounds perfect. Who needs schools, hospitals, the police and defence forces anyway?
  • This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    If families turn the heating off, or reduce the amount of heating they use, then the amount of gas consumed goes down, so reducing demand to meet supply so we don't run out.

    That's precisely what should be happening.

    That you want to stick your head in the sand and have the Government make the big, bad energy prices go away is not grown up or sensible politics and is putting the cost on future taxpayers.
    We need to comsume less but it should be achieved collectively not simply by jacking up prices so the most vulnerable people do all the adjusting. The poor already consume less energy, it's just not fair to force them to freeze this winter.
    Agreed, which is why there should be some support, I have said that all along.

    What there should not be is enough "support" that the entire price rise is taken by our children or their future children when they pay taxes instead of some of the cost being taken by the people who are actually using the energy today.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 21,494

    ydoethur said:

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    There is another, possibly even more serious problem - what to do about small businesses.

    And they need certainty now or they'll just be shutting up shop in advance of the winter.

    Even Peston has noticed this is a problem.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-08-28/where-is-the-help-for-businesses-being-crippled-by-the-energy-bills-crisis?a
    I can easily envisage many shops and businesses moving to a 3 or 4 day week over the winter as opposed to the normal 6 day week. Which is going to do Government revenues no good at all.
    But it will reduce the amount of fuel consumed, thus ensuring that we don't have blackouts due to a lack of energy.

    There's a shortage of supply in the market. That is driving the price rise. We need a shrinkage of demand to cope, which the price rise will encourage, or we won't have enough supplies - nobody on the continent will. The entire continent is trying to eliminate 1/6th of all consumption in the space of a year.
    We aren't. Has our government even advised business that it needs to restrict things? That we should be switching lighting off and having heating turned down? Its literally only this weekend that any minister even suggested there would be a problem, whilst the likes of Spain are already compelling a reduction.

    Once again, your government has gone AWOL. Your proposal for how we cut energy use is your usual sociopathic brutalism - have people freeze to death. Unpayable energy bills are "what people don't want to pay for today". Its don't want, its can't.

    Here is reality - for a generation this country has failed to have an energy strategy, and has maintained a regulator who is a puppet of the industry. Choosing to have the poor and the old freeze to death as punishment for this and for bills "they don't want to pay" is abhorrent. Even for the author "people die so what".
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,394

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    If families turn the heating off, or reduce the amount of heating they use, then the amount of gas consumed goes down, so reducing demand to meet supply so we don't run out.

    That's precisely what should be happening.

    That you want to stick your head in the sand and have the Government make the big, bad energy prices go away is not grown up or sensible politics and is putting the cost on future taxpayers.
    We need to comsume less but it should be achieved collectively not simply by jacking up prices so the most vulnerable people do all the adjusting. The poor already consume less energy, it's just not fair to force them to freeze this winter.
    Agreed, which is why there should be some support, I have said that all along.

    What there should not be is enough "support" that the entire price rise is taken by our children or their future children when they pay taxes instead of some of the cost being taken by the people who are actually using the energy today.
    Agreed.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 27,608

    ydoethur said:

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    There is another, possibly even more serious problem - what to do about small businesses.

    And they need certainty now or they'll just be shutting up shop in advance of the winter.

    Even Peston has noticed this is a problem.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-08-28/where-is-the-help-for-businesses-being-crippled-by-the-energy-bills-crisis?a
    I can easily envisage many shops and businesses moving to a 3 or 4 day week over the winter as opposed to the normal 6 day week. Which is going to do Government revenues no good at all.
    But it will reduce the amount of fuel consumed, thus ensuring that we don't have blackouts due to a lack of energy.

    There's a shortage of supply in the market. That is driving the price rise. We need a shrinkage of demand to cope, which the price rise will encourage, or we won't have enough supplies - nobody on the continent will. The entire continent is trying to eliminate 1/6th of all consumption in the space of a year.
    So you do it in a planned and organised way rather than just leaving it to the market which basically means the poorest and most vulnerable which carry the burden and small businesses will shut down.
  • ydoethur said:

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    There is another, possibly even more serious problem - what to do about small businesses.

    And they need certainty now or they'll just be shutting up shop in advance of the winter.

    Even Peston has noticed this is a problem.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-08-28/where-is-the-help-for-businesses-being-crippled-by-the-energy-bills-crisis?a
    I can easily envisage many shops and businesses moving to a 3 or 4 day week over the winter as opposed to the normal 6 day week. Which is going to do Government revenues no good at all.
    But it will reduce the amount of fuel consumed, thus ensuring that we don't have blackouts due to a lack of energy.

    There's a shortage of supply in the market. That is driving the price rise. We need a shrinkage of demand to cope, which the price rise will encourage, or we won't have enough supplies - nobody on the continent will. The entire continent is trying to eliminate 1/6th of all consumption in the space of a year.
    So you do it in a planned and organised way rather than just leaving it to the market which basically means the poorest and most vulnerable which carry the burden and small businesses will shut down.
    So how do you plan and organise it? What's your alternative plan? Should we implement rationing, and if so how do we do that?

    Businesses paying their own costs means that the least efficient uses of energy shut down. If that means say a restaurant only opening Friday to Sunday when they take 80% of their revenues and closing Monday to Thursday when they take 20% of their revenues but use half of their energy, then they can make that difficult decision.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 21,494

    ydoethur said:

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    There is another, possibly even more serious problem - what to do about small businesses.

    And they need certainty now or they'll just be shutting up shop in advance of the winter.

    Even Peston has noticed this is a problem.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-08-28/where-is-the-help-for-businesses-being-crippled-by-the-energy-bills-crisis?a
    I can easily envisage many shops and businesses moving to a 3 or 4 day week over the winter as opposed to the normal 6 day week. Which is going to do Government revenues no good at all.
    But it will reduce the amount of fuel consumed, thus ensuring that we don't have blackouts due to a lack of energy.

    There's a shortage of supply in the market. That is driving the price rise. We need a shrinkage of demand to cope, which the price rise will encourage, or we won't have enough supplies - nobody on the continent will. The entire continent is trying to eliminate 1/6th of all consumption in the space of a year.
    So you do it in a planned and organised way rather than just leaving it to the market which basically means the poorest and most vulnerable which carry the burden and small businesses will shut down.
    For most of these businesses they won't just resurface after the winter. They will be gone for good. Which is ok in a town where there are 14 convenience stores and you end up with only 12. But when it is the village store?

    It seems pretty clear the government will do very little for consumers. We know how much they will do for business - zero.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 42,968
    edited August 29

    ydoethur said:

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    There is another, possibly even more serious problem - what to do about small businesses.

    And they need certainty now or they'll just be shutting up shop in advance of the winter.

    Even Peston has noticed this is a problem.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-08-28/where-is-the-help-for-businesses-being-crippled-by-the-energy-bills-crisis?a
    I can easily envisage many shops and businesses moving to a 3 or 4 day week over the winter as opposed to the normal 6 day week. Which is going to do Government revenues no good at all.
    But it will reduce the amount of fuel consumed, thus ensuring that we don't have blackouts due to a lack of energy.

    There's a shortage of supply in the market. That is driving the price rise. We need a shrinkage of demand to cope, which the price rise will encourage, or we won't have enough supplies - nobody on the continent will. The entire continent is trying to eliminate 1/6th of all consumption in the space of a year.
    We aren't. Has our government even advised business that it needs to restrict things? That we should be switching lighting off and having heating turned down?
    This is a completely incoherent criticism. You think that people are worried sick about energy bills but need the government to tell them to cut back on consumption?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,482
    kinabalu said:

    PM Truss - Sorry Mike but I have written her off and I don't think I am making a mistake. The Cons are out at the GE imo and my advice is to get in now with this before it becomes obvious to everyone and the value goes.

    What about a Johnsonian renaissance? Truss hasn't started and she appears unhinged and chaotic. If a successful challenge were to come to pass the voter relief will reward Johnson with another five years, even if said voters are by then living in a cardboard box on the motorway.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,906

    No place for a stove in my new build, but currently considering purchase of a bidirectional charger so I can charge the Leaf with cheap night time electricity for use during the day. They cost about 4 grand tho, so I don't think the sums add up.

    To be honest I don't think a stove does either. I have 3. Each cost about £1000, but after fitting (2 of my 3 needed a liner) it was about £2k. And I don't pay for wood. However I do enjoy them and for some strange reason I do enjoy preparing the wood. Very satisfying and very physical exercise. The wood piles provide a home for many animals.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 21,494

    ydoethur said:

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    There is another, possibly even more serious problem - what to do about small businesses.

    And they need certainty now or they'll just be shutting up shop in advance of the winter.

    Even Peston has noticed this is a problem.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-08-28/where-is-the-help-for-businesses-being-crippled-by-the-energy-bills-crisis?a
    I can easily envisage many shops and businesses moving to a 3 or 4 day week over the winter as opposed to the normal 6 day week. Which is going to do Government revenues no good at all.
    But it will reduce the amount of fuel consumed, thus ensuring that we don't have blackouts due to a lack of energy.

    There's a shortage of supply in the market. That is driving the price rise. We need a shrinkage of demand to cope, which the price rise will encourage, or we won't have enough supplies - nobody on the continent will. The entire continent is trying to eliminate 1/6th of all consumption in the space of a year.
    We aren't. Has our government even advised business that it needs to restrict things? That we should be switching lighting off and having heating turned down?
    This is a completely incoherent criticism. You think that people are worried sick about energy bills but need the government to tell them to cut back on consumption?
    "Has our government even advised business"
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 42,968

    ydoethur said:

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    There is another, possibly even more serious problem - what to do about small businesses.

    And they need certainty now or they'll just be shutting up shop in advance of the winter.

    Even Peston has noticed this is a problem.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-08-28/where-is-the-help-for-businesses-being-crippled-by-the-energy-bills-crisis?a
    I can easily envisage many shops and businesses moving to a 3 or 4 day week over the winter as opposed to the normal 6 day week. Which is going to do Government revenues no good at all.
    But it will reduce the amount of fuel consumed, thus ensuring that we don't have blackouts due to a lack of energy.

    There's a shortage of supply in the market. That is driving the price rise. We need a shrinkage of demand to cope, which the price rise will encourage, or we won't have enough supplies - nobody on the continent will. The entire continent is trying to eliminate 1/6th of all consumption in the space of a year.
    We aren't. Has our government even advised business that it needs to restrict things? That we should be switching lighting off and having heating turned down?
    This is a completely incoherent criticism. You think that people are worried sick about energy bills but need the government to tell them to cut back on consumption?
    "Has our government even advised business"
    Businesses are run by people.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 9,936
    edited August 29

    ydoethur said:

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    There is another, possibly even more serious problem - what to do about small businesses.

    And they need certainty now or they'll just be shutting up shop in advance of the winter.

    Even Peston has noticed this is a problem.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-08-28/where-is-the-help-for-businesses-being-crippled-by-the-energy-bills-crisis?a
    I can easily envisage many shops and businesses moving to a 3 or 4 day week over the winter as opposed to the normal 6 day week. Which is going to do Government revenues no good at all.
    But it will reduce the amount of fuel consumed, thus ensuring that we don't have blackouts due to a lack of energy.

    There's a shortage of supply in the market. That is driving the price rise. We need a shrinkage of demand to cope, which the price rise will encourage, or we won't have enough supplies - nobody on the continent will. The entire continent is trying to eliminate 1/6th of all consumption in the space of a year.
    We aren't. Has our government even advised business that it needs to restrict things? That we should be switching lighting off and having heating turned down? Its literally only this weekend that any minister even suggested there would be a problem, whilst the likes of Spain are already compelling a reduction.

    Once again, your government has gone AWOL. Your proposal for how we cut energy use is your usual sociopathic brutalism - have people freeze to death. Unpayable energy bills are "what people don't want to pay for today". Its don't want, its can't.

    Here is reality - for a generation this country has failed to have an energy strategy, and has maintained a regulator who is a puppet of the industry. Choosing to have the poor and the old freeze to death as punishment for this and for bills "they don't want to pay" is abhorrent. Even for the author "people die so what".
    You're using your own usual alarmism and extremism. Central heating didn't even exist in this country until relatively recently, and this country wasn't uninhabitable. People turning down, or even off, their heating won't turn the country into uninhabitable Arctic conditions.

    I've said all along that there is, will be, and should be some support. But that support should be limited, it shouldn't be a big bazooka as you're demanding.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,906
    Off topic - Does anyone know what the arguments are for Trump holding papers he shouldn't have? Is it just stupidity or are there other reasons?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,482

    ydoethur said:

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    There is another, possibly even more serious problem - what to do about small businesses.

    And they need certainty now or they'll just be shutting up shop in advance of the winter.

    Even Peston has noticed this is a problem.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-08-28/where-is-the-help-for-businesses-being-crippled-by-the-energy-bills-crisis?a
    I can easily envisage many shops and businesses moving to a 3 or 4 day week over the winter as opposed to the normal 6 day week. Which is going to do Government revenues no good at all.
    But it will reduce the amount of fuel consumed, thus ensuring that we don't have blackouts due to a lack of energy.

    There's a shortage of supply in the market. That is driving the price rise. We need a shrinkage of demand to cope, which the price rise will encourage, or we won't have enough supplies - nobody on the continent will. The entire continent is trying to eliminate 1/6th of all consumption in the space of a year.
    We aren't. Has our government even advised business that it needs to restrict things? That we should be switching lighting off and having heating turned down?
    This is a completely incoherent criticism. You think that people are worried sick about energy bills but need the government to tell them to cut back on consumption?
    "Has our government even advised business"
    Yes, its advice as I recall was "f*** business".
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,045
    The key for Truss may well be the last RedfieldWilton poll where she was 1% behind Starmer as preferred PM.
    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1562845017625939970?s=20&t=CoRLHUTYDh0nwHJ7jfj6Ig

    She needs to then translate that into voteshare in No 10 and sustain it. If she did then even if she still lost the Tory majority she could still win most seats
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,058

    ydoethur said:

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    There is another, possibly even more serious problem - what to do about small businesses.

    And they need certainty now or they'll just be shutting up shop in advance of the winter.

    Even Peston has noticed this is a problem.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-08-28/where-is-the-help-for-businesses-being-crippled-by-the-energy-bills-crisis?a
    I can easily envisage many shops and businesses moving to a 3 or 4 day week over the winter as opposed to the normal 6 day week. Which is going to do Government revenues no good at all.
    But it will reduce the amount of fuel consumed, thus ensuring that we don't have blackouts due to a lack of energy.

    There's a shortage of supply in the market. That is driving the price rise. We need a shrinkage of demand to cope, which the price rise will encourage, or we won't have enough supplies - nobody on the continent will. The entire continent is trying to eliminate 1/6th of all consumption in the space of a year.
    We aren't. Has our government even advised business that it needs to restrict things? That we should be switching lighting off and having heating turned down?
    This is a completely incoherent criticism. You think that people are worried sick about energy bills but need the government to tell them to cut back on consumption?
    You make a very important point

    Millions of consumers and businesses will already be taking steps to mitigate their own personal situations and this is vital to the bigger picture, as no matter how much help the government may offer it is not possible for the taxpayer or even windfall taxes to insulate each and everyone from the dramatic effects of the situation we all face.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 42,968
    edited August 29
    Typical business meeting about the energy crisis as imagined by @RochdalePioneers:

    - So we're going to turn the heating down in our German offices by 3 degrees. What about the UK?
    - We're still waiting for instructions from Liz Truss so I'm afraid it's anyone's guess what we'll have to do.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,482
    kjh said:

    Off topic - Does anyone know what the arguments are for Trump holding papers he shouldn't have? Is it just stupidity or are there other reasons?

    He had personally declassified all documents, verbally and to himself, which means it was all legitimate in his mind.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,756
    kjh said:

    Off topic - Does anyone know what the arguments are for Trump holding papers he shouldn't have? Is it just stupidity or are there other reasons?

    There is a rumour swirling that the reason was they contained information he didn't want Biden's administration to have.

    Whether it is true or not I don't know. It could easily be somebody speculating as to why he's flown off the handle as he has, which truthfully doesn't need an explanation. He's reacting like a spoiled toddler because that's how he always reacts.

    But if it is, that would be a very, very serious matter. As in, I can't see how he and anyone else involved would escape a prison sentence.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 16,465
    edited August 29

    ydoethur said:

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    There is another, possibly even more serious problem - what to do about small businesses.

    And they need certainty now or they'll just be shutting up shop in advance of the winter.

    Even Peston has noticed this is a problem.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-08-28/where-is-the-help-for-businesses-being-crippled-by-the-energy-bills-crisis?a
    I can easily envisage many shops and businesses moving to a 3 or 4 day week over the winter as opposed to the normal 6 day week. Which is going to do Government revenues no good at all.
    But it will reduce the amount of fuel consumed, thus ensuring that we don't have blackouts due to a lack of energy.

    There's a shortage of supply in the market. That is driving the price rise. We need a shrinkage of demand to cope, which the price rise will encourage, or we won't have enough supplies - nobody on the continent will. The entire continent is trying to eliminate 1/6th of all consumption in the space of a year.
    We aren't. Has our government even advised business that it needs to restrict things? That we should be switching lighting off and having heating turned down?
    This is a completely incoherent criticism. You think that people are worried sick about energy bills but need the government to tell them to cut back on consumption?
    It wouldn't do any harm. Some people will think about a problem themselves and work out what to do, other people like to follow leaders.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,411
    edited August 29
    Funny story. Guess the paperwork got lost. Also, yet more people who fail to know the 'generally accepted rules' which do not in fact exist.

    When will the government and the Queen accept these rules I wonder?

    Gibraltar can officially call itself a city, 180 years after it was first granted the status by Queen Victoria.

    The British overseas territory had bid to become a city earlier this year as part of the Queen's Platinum Jubilee.

    But when researchers looked through the National Archives, they found it had already been recognised as one in 1842...

    City status is often associated with having a cathedral, university, or large population, but there are no set rules for it being granted - it's awarded by the monarch on advice of ministers.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62710553
  • ydoethur said:

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    There is another, possibly even more serious problem - what to do about small businesses.

    And they need certainty now or they'll just be shutting up shop in advance of the winter.

    Even Peston has noticed this is a problem.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-08-28/where-is-the-help-for-businesses-being-crippled-by-the-energy-bills-crisis?a
    I can easily envisage many shops and businesses moving to a 3 or 4 day week over the winter as opposed to the normal 6 day week. Which is going to do Government revenues no good at all.
    But it will reduce the amount of fuel consumed, thus ensuring that we don't have blackouts due to a lack of energy.

    There's a shortage of supply in the market. That is driving the price rise. We need a shrinkage of demand to cope, which the price rise will encourage, or we won't have enough supplies - nobody on the continent will. The entire continent is trying to eliminate 1/6th of all consumption in the space of a year.
    We aren't. Has our government even advised business that it needs to restrict things? That we should be switching lighting off and having heating turned down?
    This is a completely incoherent criticism. You think that people are worried sick about energy bills but need the government to tell them to cut back on consumption?
    "Has our government even advised business"
    Businesses are run by people.
    You have to wonder what kind of businesses exist in Rochdale's mind that the people running them are so utterly incompetent they won't think to reduce consumption unless the Government tell them what to do.

    And why they should be in business.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,058
    HYUFD said:

    The key for Truss may well be the last RedfieldWilton poll where she was 1% behind Starmer as preferred PM.
    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1562845017625939970?s=20&t=CoRLHUTYDh0nwHJ7jfj6Ig

    She needs to then translate that into voteshare in No 10 and sustain it. If she did then even if she still lost the Tory majority she could still win most seats

    She needs the conservative party to get behind her 100% once elected otherwise the party faces extinction in 2024

    Will you come on bord and accept Johnson is over and the party needs to move on
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 21,494

    Typical business meeting about the energy crisis as imagined by @RochdalePioneers:

    - So we're going to turn the heating down in our German offices by 3 degrees. What about the UK?
    - We're still waiting for instructions from Liz Truss so I'm afraid it's anyone's guess what we'll have to do.

    You really do give me some belly laughs - thanks.

    The Spanish example was restricting the use of air conditioning. Which makes places uncomfortably warm. Ours will be restricting the use of heating. To make a factory or office uncomfortably cold.

    Most businesses are not going to volunteer themselves to create grief for their staff. They need to be instructed. If its the national effort, all pull together, bulldog spirit what what then people will do it.

    But the bosses just turning heating down by themselves? Some will, but most won't.

    Please keep posting the cabaret responses! I love a good comedy turn!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,591

    ydoethur said:

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    There is another, possibly even more serious problem - what to do about small businesses.

    And they need certainty now or they'll just be shutting up shop in advance of the winter.

    Even Peston has noticed this is a problem.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-08-28/where-is-the-help-for-businesses-being-crippled-by-the-energy-bills-crisis?a
    I can easily envisage many shops and businesses moving to a 3 or 4 day week over the winter as opposed to the normal 6 day week. Which is going to do Government revenues no good at all.
    But it will reduce the amount of fuel consumed, thus ensuring that we don't have blackouts due to a lack of energy.

    There's a shortage of supply in the market. That is driving the price rise. We need a shrinkage of demand to cope, which the price rise will encourage, or we won't have enough supplies - nobody on the continent will. The entire continent is trying to eliminate 1/6th of all consumption in the space of a year.
    We aren't. Has our government even advised business that it needs to restrict things? That we should be switching lighting off and having heating turned down?
    This is a completely incoherent criticism. You think that people are worried sick about energy bills but need the government to tell them to cut back on consumption?
    "Has our government even advised business"
    I believe the policy is "f*** business"
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,756
    edited August 29

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    If families turn the heating off, or reduce the amount of heating they use, then the amount of gas consumed goes down, so reducing demand to meet supply so we don't run out.

    That's precisely what should be happening.

    That you want to stick your head in the sand and have the Government make the big, bad energy prices go away is not grown up or sensible politics and is putting the cost on future taxpayers.
    We need to comsume less but it should be achieved collectively not simply by jacking up prices so the most vulnerable people do all the adjusting. The poor already consume less energy, it's just not fair to force them to freeze this winter.
    Agreed, which is why there should be some support, I have said that all along.

    What there should not be is enough "support" that the entire price rise is taken by our children or their future children when they pay taxes instead of some of the cost being taken by the people who are actually using the energy today.
    The energy companies' plan of spreading the cost over 5 years or so, underwritten by the government borrowing upfront on the grounds they can borrow more cheaply than private companies, seemed a sensible one.

    Would mean higher bills for a long period but unless we properly sort out a non-carbon grid those are coming anyway.

    Frankly, it's difficult to see what other solution wouldn't lead to an immediate catastrophe.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,781
    Having hitherto been agnostic between Truss and Sunak I'm now concerned that she thinks cutting taxes is the thing to do in present circs.
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Truss does give off worrying indications of being woefully out of her depth. Johnson threw red meat at Tory neanderthals but was usually able to do it with a wink that suggested he wasn’t being entirely serious. Truss seems to believe what she says. Hopefully, she doesn’t.

    In happier news, there’s a definite whiff of autumn in the early morning air. The sun is softer, there’s a dewy sheen on the fields and a chill in the air. Summer is ending. The best time of year approaches.

    I'd be more inclined to believe that Truss's recent comments could be disregarded if she hadn't continued with the same line long after the leadership contest was effectively over with the vast majority of Tory members having already voted.
    There is no big reveal of a "fooled you!" plan to do the exact opposite of what she has said eleventy times on the election tour. She sincerely believes that tax cuts and removing the green levy are the right approach and that handouts and "bungs" of large amounts of money is not the right approach.

    Unlike the Johnson government, the Truss government will be ideological, with an actual belief system. I have no doubt that her hand will be forced to do *something* but it won't be a £100bn bazooka and it won't be a windfall tax handed back to consumers.

    So having let people suffer for months in the fear of what is coming, now having said "wait and see", and then with hugely inadequate and wrongly targeted small change coming her government will revert to her usual rhetoric. Workshy. Lazy. Get a better job. Because that is what she believes.
    Why should it be a £100bn bazooka?

    That you will determine whatever Truss does is insufficient is fairly inevitable, but to demand £100bn is just ridiculous.
    The £100 billion number comes from what the energy companies say is going to be required. Now that could just be ramping but it certainly isn't the case that RP has just picked a huge number out of the air. Indeed I used exactly the same number yesterday to point out how inadequate the Truss VAT plans were.
    It will be what is required if you think the taxpayer (or future taxpayers more likely) should 100% absorb the cost of what is coming rather than people absorbing some of it themselves via belt tightening and using less fuel.

    Personally I'm not completely sold on the idea that our children when they're taxpayers should be facing the bill for what people don't want to pay for today.

    Some support is essential, absolutely, but somewhere between "nothing" and "everything" is surely more appropriate. Where though, is an important thing to think about.
    If the government are going to subsidise fully the increase in price, then there’s going to have to be rationing - because the supply is going to be down 15-20%. That’s why the price is going up.

    Only by allowing the price to go higher, will residents and businesses be incentivised to reduce their energy requirements this winter. The middle classes and large businesses are going to have to deal with it.
    Businesses will deal with it by shutting down. Indeed they already are.
    IIRC some of the larger energy users such as factories, have contracts with power companies that let them get partially cut off at periods of high demand, so they move their shifts around when it’s exceptionally cold.

    Yes, there’s likely a need to do something with small businesses, especially in retail and hospitality.
    They are on interruptible tariffs which allows the energy companies to cut them off (with due warning) in return for paying a lower charge when there's no stress in the system. Amazingly it was the case some years ago (not sure whether it still is) that some hospitals and schools chose to have such contracts.

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 16,465
    kjh said:

    Off topic - Does anyone know what the arguments are for Trump holding papers he shouldn't have? Is it just stupidity or are there other reasons?

    Do you mean arguments from the Trump side? I think the ideas they've floated are either that he had a right to them so it's none of anyone else's business, and that they concerned things he thought the American people should know about so he declassified them and kept the docs so he could tell them (but apparently hadn't got around to the telling them part).
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 21,494
    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    Off topic - Does anyone know what the arguments are for Trump holding papers he shouldn't have? Is it just stupidity or are there other reasons?

    There is a rumour swirling that the reason was they contained information he didn't want Biden's administration to have.

    Whether it is true or not I don't know. It could easily be somebody speculating as to why he's flown off the handle as he has, which truthfully doesn't need an explanation. He's reacting like a spoiled toddler because that's how he always reacts.

    But if it is, that would be a very, very serious matter. As in, I can't see how he and anyone else involved would escape a prison sentence.
    Trump stated he could go out into the street and shoot someone and still get a ratings boost. I don't think its hyperbole any more. He is literally above the law.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 766
    edited August 29
    Are you sure that there is a shortage of Gas in the UK: "The UK exported £3.4 billion of gas in 2021, increasing by 167% from £1.3 billion in 2020. The trade in gas has been consistently high since the latter half of 2021, as global gas demand increased following the conclusion of many of the strictest coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic restrictions."

    UK government needs to take control of gas produced in the UK . The gas could be used for electrictity generation or as is happening already coal fired stations such as Radcliffe (Junction 24 of the M!) should be kept in service until on-shore renewables (solar and wind) come on line.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,482
    HYUFD said:

    The key for Truss may well be the last RedfieldWilton poll where she was 1% behind Starmer as preferred PM.
    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1562845017625939970?s=20&t=CoRLHUTYDh0nwHJ7jfj6Ig

    She needs to then translate that into voteshare in No 10 and sustain it. If she did then even if she still lost the Tory majority she could still win most seats

    If she is anything like as dangerous in office as she has been on campaign she won't make it to the GE. Your man Johnson is waiting "et tu Brute", knife in hand. He's put an end to the premierships of two other PMs, he's on a hattrick.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,756
    Icarus said:

    Are you sure that there is a shortage of Gas in the UK: "The UK exported £3.4 billion of gas in 2021, increasing by 167% from £1.3 billion in 2020. The trade in gas has been consistently high since the latter half of 2021, as global gas demand increased following the conclusion of many of the strictest coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic restrictions."

    UK government needs to take control of gas produced in the UK . The gas could be used for electrictity generation or as is happening already coal fired stations such as Radcliffe (Junction 24 of the M!) should be kept in service until on-shore renewables (solar and wind) come on line.

    I wouldn't use monetary value as a basis for comparison, given the price changes. Have you got the figures for volume?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,174
    Dura_Ace said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    ydoethur said:

    pigeon said:

    Chris said:

    pigeon said:

    The Ancien Régime will simply carry on as before, only with the court fool having been replaced at its pinnacle by Marie Antoinette. This is not a particular cause for celebration.

    You're telling us the secret plan for keeping warm this Winter will be "Let them wear mink"?
    Probably, or at any rate something not too far off. Some demented Tory supporting economist apparently went so far the other day as to suggest that the real problem was red tape around air pollution, and that if only we let people burn what they liked then the elderly could stay warm this Winter by going out and gathering wood or setting fire to old books.

    Though, granted, I did see that on Twitter, so it might just have been satire. Or bollocks.
    Gathering wood? Seriously? Does he have any idea what that would (no pun intended) involve? How much is needed, and how it needs to be dried first?

    Moreover, it requires them to have some sort of fireplace.

    There are bans on gathering wood from some woodlands, but that really isn't the issue here.

    There is also some sort of Brexit fuelled chainsaw shortage. I had to wait 7 months for my MS881. I have ported the cylinder, fucked around with the ignition and fuelling on it so it's up to about 11hp. #hotsaw
    Are you suggesting Brexit hasn't cut it?
    MInd, we'll know things are bad when DA is riding around on his MS881.
    25" bar and a full chisel tip chain. That thing fucking shreds dick...
    Overkill for that, no ?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,756
    Anyway, while it's sunny, off for a bike ride.

    Have a good morning.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,482
    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    Off topic - Does anyone know what the arguments are for Trump holding papers he shouldn't have? Is it just stupidity or are there other reasons?

    There is a rumour swirling that the reason was they contained information he didn't want Biden's administration to have.

    Whether it is true or not I don't know. It could easily be somebody speculating as to why he's flown off the handle as he has, which truthfully doesn't need an explanation. He's reacting like a spoiled toddler because that's how he always reacts.

    But if it is, that would be a very, very serious matter. As in, I can't see how he and anyone else involved would escape a prison sentence.
    They are not going to imprison a former and future POTUS. Lots of minions might wind up pressing licence plates, but Trump won't.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 9,936
    edited August 29
    Icarus said:

    Are you sure that there is a shortage of Gas in the UK: "The UK exported £3.4 billion of gas in 2021, increasing by 167% from £1.3 billion in 2020. The trade in gas has been consistently high since the latter half of 2021, as global gas demand increased following the conclusion of many of the strictest coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic restrictions."

    UK government needs to take control of gas produced in the UK . The gas could be used for electrictity generation or as is happening already coal fired stations such as Radcliffe (Junction 24 of the M!) should be kept in service until on-shore renewables (solar and wind) come on line.

    Odd that you quoted only one half of the paragraph that sentence came from. Adding in the missing first sentence rather changes the interpretation of it.

    The UK imported £19.6 billion of gas in 2021; a notable increase of 312% from £4.8 billion in 2020. The UK exported £3.4 billion of gas in 2021, increasing by 167% from £1.3 billion in 2020

    £19.6 bn of imports and £3.4 bn of exports. You tell me, do you think when there's a global energy shortage, does that mean we face a shortage or not?
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,216

    Sandpit said:

    Truss does give off worrying indications of being woefully out of her depth. Johnson threw red meat at Tory neanderthals but was usually able to do it with a wink that suggested he wasn’t being entirely serious. Truss seems to believe what she says. Hopefully, she doesn’t.

    In happier news, there’s a definite whiff of autumn in the early morning air. The sun is softer, there’s a dewy sheen on the fields and a chill in the air. Summer is ending. The best time of year approaches.

    I'd be more inclined to believe that Truss's recent comments could be disregarded if she hadn't continued with the same line long after the leadership contest was effectively over with the vast majority of Tory members having already voted.
    There is no big reveal of a "fooled you!" plan to do the exact opposite of what she has said eleventy times on the election tour. She sincerely believes that tax cuts and removing the green levy are the right approach and that handouts and "bungs" of large amounts of money is not the right approach.

    Unlike the Johnson government, the Truss government will be ideological, with an actual belief system. I have no doubt that her hand will be forced to do *something* but it won't be a £100bn bazooka and it won't be a windfall tax handed back to consumers.

    So having let people suffer for months in the fear of what is coming, now having said "wait and see", and then with hugely inadequate and wrongly targeted small change coming her government will revert to her usual rhetoric. Workshy. Lazy. Get a better job. Because that is what she believes.
    Why should it be a £100bn bazooka?

    That you will determine whatever Truss does is insufficient is fairly inevitable, but to demand £100bn is just ridiculous.
    The £100 billion number comes from what the energy companies say is going to be required. Now that could just be ramping but it certainly isn't the case that RP has just picked a huge number out of the air. Indeed I used exactly the same number yesterday to point out how inadequate the Truss VAT plans were.
    It will be what is required if you think the taxpayer (or future taxpayers more likely) should 100% absorb the cost of what is coming rather than people absorbing some of it themselves via belt tightening and using less fuel.

    Personally I'm not completely sold on the idea that our children when they're taxpayers should be facing the bill for what people don't want to pay for today.

    Some support is essential, absolutely, but somewhere between "nothing" and "everything" is surely more appropriate. Where though, is an important thing to think about.
    If the government are going to subsidise fully the increase in price, then there’s going to have to be rationing - because the supply is going to be down 15-20%. That’s why the price is going up.

    Only by allowing the price to go higher, will residents and businesses be incentivised to reduce their energy requirements this winter. The middle classes and large businesses are going to have to deal with it.
    Businesses will deal with it by shutting down. Indeed they already are.
    Local Facebook page had a cafe in town closing down. It’s popular, busy, but cannot cope with the increase.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 16,465

    ydoethur said:

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    There is another, possibly even more serious problem - what to do about small businesses.

    And they need certainty now or they'll just be shutting up shop in advance of the winter.

    Even Peston has noticed this is a problem.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-08-28/where-is-the-help-for-businesses-being-crippled-by-the-energy-bills-crisis?a
    I can easily envisage many shops and businesses moving to a 3 or 4 day week over the winter as opposed to the normal 6 day week. Which is going to do Government revenues no good at all.
    But it will reduce the amount of fuel consumed, thus ensuring that we don't have blackouts due to a lack of energy.

    There's a shortage of supply in the market. That is driving the price rise. We need a shrinkage of demand to cope, which the price rise will encourage, or we won't have enough supplies - nobody on the continent will. The entire continent is trying to eliminate 1/6th of all consumption in the space of a year.
    We aren't. Has our government even advised business that it needs to restrict things? That we should be switching lighting off and having heating turned down?
    This is a completely incoherent criticism. You think that people are worried sick about energy bills but need the government to tell them to cut back on consumption?
    "Has our government even advised business"
    Businesses are run by people.
    You have to wonder what kind of businesses exist in Rochdale's mind that the people running them are so utterly incompetent they won't think to reduce consumption unless the Government tell them what to do.

    And why they should be in business.
    Like, if your business is to run a fishmonger's, you're thinking a lot about fish and their mongering. Obviously you won't have made it this far if you're *totally* oblivious to everything else, but that doesn't mean you can't use some advice.

    Whether you need or want the *government* to give you that advice will vary from person to person, but there are definitely people out there who listen to leaders.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,886
    geoffw said:

    Having hitherto been agnostic between Truss and Sunak I'm now concerned that she thinks cutting taxes is the thing to do in present circs.

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Truss does give off worrying indications of being woefully out of her depth. Johnson threw red meat at Tory neanderthals but was usually able to do it with a wink that suggested he wasn’t being entirely serious. Truss seems to believe what she says. Hopefully, she doesn’t.

    In happier news, there’s a definite whiff of autumn in the early morning air. The sun is softer, there’s a dewy sheen on the fields and a chill in the air. Summer is ending. The best time of year approaches.

    I'd be more inclined to believe that Truss's recent comments could be disregarded if she hadn't continued with the same line long after the leadership contest was effectively over with the vast majority of Tory members having already voted.
    There is no big reveal of a "fooled you!" plan to do the exact opposite of what she has said eleventy times on the election tour. She sincerely believes that tax cuts and removing the green levy are the right approach and that handouts and "bungs" of large amounts of money is not the right approach.

    Unlike the Johnson government, the Truss government will be ideological, with an actual belief system. I have no doubt that her hand will be forced to do *something* but it won't be a £100bn bazooka and it won't be a windfall tax handed back to consumers.

    So having let people suffer for months in the fear of what is coming, now having said "wait and see", and then with hugely inadequate and wrongly targeted small change coming her government will revert to her usual rhetoric. Workshy. Lazy. Get a better job. Because that is what she believes.
    Why should it be a £100bn bazooka?

    That you will determine whatever Truss does is insufficient is fairly inevitable, but to demand £100bn is just ridiculous.
    The £100 billion number comes from what the energy companies say is going to be required. Now that could just be ramping but it certainly isn't the case that RP has just picked a huge number out of the air. Indeed I used exactly the same number yesterday to point out how inadequate the Truss VAT plans were.
    It will be what is required if you think the taxpayer (or future taxpayers more likely) should 100% absorb the cost of what is coming rather than people absorbing some of it themselves via belt tightening and using less fuel.

    Personally I'm not completely sold on the idea that our children when they're taxpayers should be facing the bill for what people don't want to pay for today.

    Some support is essential, absolutely, but somewhere between "nothing" and "everything" is surely more appropriate. Where though, is an important thing to think about.
    If the government are going to subsidise fully the increase in price, then there’s going to have to be rationing - because the supply is going to be down 15-20%. That’s why the price is going up.

    Only by allowing the price to go higher, will residents and businesses be incentivised to reduce their energy requirements this winter. The middle classes and large businesses are going to have to deal with it.
    Businesses will deal with it by shutting down. Indeed they already are.
    IIRC some of the larger energy users such as factories, have contracts with power companies that let them get partially cut off at periods of high demand, so they move their shifts around when it’s exceptionally cold.

    Yes, there’s likely a need to do something with small businesses, especially in retail and hospitality.
    They are on interruptible tariffs which allows the energy companies to cut them off (with due warning) in return for paying a lower charge when there's no stress in the system. Amazingly it was the case some years ago (not sure whether it still is) that some hospitals and schools chose to have such contracts.

    Presumably, any hospitals or schools signing up to interruptible tarrifs, have adequate diesel backup generators to take the load for a few hours?

    That’s a big ‘presumably’ I know.

    I expect every supermarket car park to have a containerised genny or two this winter. Buy shares in whoever is making and renting them!
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 766
    edited August 29
    ydoethur said:

    Icarus said:

    Are you sure that there is a shortage of Gas in the UK: "The UK exported £3.4 billion of gas in 2021, increasing by 167% from £1.3 billion in 2020. The trade in gas has been consistently high since the latter half of 2021, as global gas demand increased following the conclusion of many of the strictest coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic restrictions."

    UK government needs to take control of gas produced in the UK . The gas could be used for electrictity generation or as is happening already coal fired stations such as Radcliffe (Junction 24 of the M!) should be kept in service until on-shore renewables (solar and wind) come on line.

    I wouldn't use monetary value as a basis for comparison, given the price changes. Have you got the figures for volume?

    Since March 2022, the two gas interconnector pipes that connect the UK with Belgium and the Netherlands have been exporting 75 million cubic metres of gas per day to the European mainland, reaching their maximum capacity, the FT report added. Our usage in 2021 was 77billion cubic metres so exported about a third of that!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,482

    HYUFD said:

    The key for Truss may well be the last RedfieldWilton poll where she was 1% behind Starmer as preferred PM.
    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1562845017625939970?s=20&t=CoRLHUTYDh0nwHJ7jfj6Ig

    She needs to then translate that into voteshare in No 10 and sustain it. If she did then even if she still lost the Tory majority she could still win most seats

    She needs the conservative party to get behind her 100% once elected otherwise the party faces extinction in 2024

    Will you come on bord and accept Johnson is over and the party needs to move on
    Johnson won't, and he really is not finished.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,591
    edited August 29
    Icarus said:

    Are you sure that there is a shortage of Gas in the UK: "The UK exported £3.4 billion of gas in 2021, increasing by 167% from £1.3 billion in 2020. The trade in gas has been consistently high since the latter half of 2021, as global gas demand increased following the conclusion of many of the strictest coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic restrictions."

    UK government needs to take control of gas produced in the UK . The gas could be used for electrictity generation or as is happening already coal fired stations such as Radcliffe (Junction 24 of the M!) should be kept in service until on-shore renewables (solar and wind) come on line.

    I think the problem is lack of storage for gas, so exporting it is the only alternative.

    Germany has 2 months of storage, 85% full, and only 9% of current gas consumption comes from Russia.




  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,886
    edited August 29
    Icarus said:

    Are you sure that there is a shortage of Gas in the UK: "The UK exported £3.4 billion of gas in 2021, increasing by 167% from £1.3 billion in 2020. The trade in gas has been consistently high since the latter half of 2021, as global gas demand increased following the conclusion of many of the strictest coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic restrictions."

    UK government needs to take control of gas produced in the UK . The gas could be used for electrictity generation or as is happening already coal fired stations such as Radcliffe (Junction 24 of the M!) should be kept in service until on-shore renewables (solar and wind) come on line.

    Presumably you’d be equally happy with Biden taking control of gas produced in the USA, for domestic energy generation rather than export to Europe?

    (A significant amount of UK “exports” were previously imported from the US, because the UK invested in import terminals).
  • HYUFD said:

    The key for Truss may well be the last RedfieldWilton poll where she was 1% behind Starmer as preferred PM.
    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1562845017625939970?s=20&t=CoRLHUTYDh0nwHJ7jfj6Ig

    She needs to then translate that into voteshare in No 10 and sustain it. If she did then even if she still lost the Tory majority she could still win most seats

    If she is anything like as dangerous in office as she has been on campaign she won't make it to the GE. Your man Johnson is waiting "et tu Brute", knife in hand. He's put an end to the premierships of two other PMs, he's on a hattrick.
    He's score a hat-trick.

    The third was an own goal though.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,058

    Typical business meeting about the energy crisis as imagined by @RochdalePioneers:

    - So we're going to turn the heating down in our German offices by 3 degrees. What about the UK?
    - We're still waiting for instructions from Liz Truss so I'm afraid it's anyone's guess what we'll have to do.

    You really do give me some belly laughs - thanks.

    The Spanish example was restricting the use of air conditioning. Which makes places uncomfortably warm. Ours will be restricting the use of heating. To make a factory or office uncomfortably cold.

    Most businesses are not going to volunteer themselves to create grief for their staff. They need to be instructed. If its the national effort, all pull together, bulldog spirit what what then people will do it.

    But the bosses just turning heating down by themselves? Some will, but most won't.

    Please keep posting the cabaret responses! I love a good comedy turn!
    I really find this extraordinary

    'Most businesses are not going to volunteer themselves to create grief for their staff. They need to be instructed. If its the national effort, all pull together, bulldog spirit what what then people will do it.'


    I ran two very successful businesses over 45 years and simply never looked at government to make decisions for me, or to take action and forward planning to address crisis that were looming

    It is an extraordinary business person who waits to be told what to do by a government, any government

    I would gently suggest this does provide an insight into your attitudes to government
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 21,494
    In other news, the much delayed SLS rocket is heading to the moon this afternoon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_vyZiVxEEo
  • In other news, the much delayed SLS rocket is heading to the moon this afternoon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_vyZiVxEEo

    Unfortunately the Senate Launch System is not actually launching Senators like a trebuchet on a one way trip.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 21,494

    Typical business meeting about the energy crisis as imagined by @RochdalePioneers:

    - So we're going to turn the heating down in our German offices by 3 degrees. What about the UK?
    - We're still waiting for instructions from Liz Truss so I'm afraid it's anyone's guess what we'll have to do.

    You really do give me some belly laughs - thanks.

    The Spanish example was restricting the use of air conditioning. Which makes places uncomfortably warm. Ours will be restricting the use of heating. To make a factory or office uncomfortably cold.

    Most businesses are not going to volunteer themselves to create grief for their staff. They need to be instructed. If its the national effort, all pull together, bulldog spirit what what then people will do it.

    But the bosses just turning heating down by themselves? Some will, but most won't.

    Please keep posting the cabaret responses! I love a good comedy turn!
    I really find this extraordinary

    'Most businesses are not going to volunteer themselves to create grief for their staff. They need to be instructed. If its the national effort, all pull together, bulldog spirit what what then people will do it.'


    I ran two very successful businesses over 45 years and simply never looked at government to make decisions for me, or to take action and forward planning to address crisis that were looming

    It is an extraordinary business person who waits to be told what to do by a government, any government

    I would gently suggest this does provide an insight into your attitudes to government
    We're not talking about normal business decisions. We are talking about abnormal. Were businesses voluntarily going to a three day week before Heath instructed them to do so? Did your business?
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 3,157

    ydoethur said:

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    There is another, possibly even more serious problem - what to do about small businesses.

    And they need certainty now or they'll just be shutting up shop in advance of the winter.

    Even Peston has noticed this is a problem.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-08-28/where-is-the-help-for-businesses-being-crippled-by-the-energy-bills-crisis?a
    I can easily envisage many shops and businesses moving to a 3 or 4 day week over the winter as opposed to the normal 6 day week. Which is going to do Government revenues no good at all.
    But it will reduce the amount of fuel consumed, thus ensuring that we don't have blackouts due to a lack of energy.

    There's a shortage of supply in the market. That is driving the price rise. We need a shrinkage of demand to cope, which the price rise will encourage, or we won't have enough supplies - nobody on the continent will. The entire continent is trying to eliminate 1/6th of all consumption in the space of a year.
    We aren't. Has our government even advised business that it needs to restrict things? That we should be switching lighting off and having heating turned down? Its literally only this weekend that any minister even suggested there would be a problem, whilst the likes of Spain are already compelling a reduction.

    Once again, your government has gone AWOL. Your proposal for how we cut energy use is your usual sociopathic brutalism - have people freeze to death. Unpayable energy bills are "what people don't want to pay for today". Its don't want, its can't.

    Here is reality - for a generation this country has failed to have an energy strategy, and has maintained a regulator who is a puppet of the industry. Choosing to have the poor and the old freeze to death as punishment for this and for bills "they don't want to pay" is abhorrent. Even for the author "people die so what".
    You're using your own usual alarmism and extremism. Central heating didn't even exist in this country until relatively recently, and this country wasn't uninhabitable. People turning down, or even off, their heating won't turn the country into uninhabitable Arctic conditions.

    I've said all along that there is, will be, and should be some support. But that support should be limited, it shouldn't be a big bazooka as you're demanding.
    Notwithstanding the fact that turning back the clock on home heating by 50 or 60 years is not something to be celebrated in the first place, most homes that long ago coped with the help of these things called coal fires. Almost nobody, save for the owners of chichi wood burners, has a functioning fireplace anymore, and they wouldn't be able to get hold of the bloody coal to put in them even if they did.

    If people can't afford to put the heating on then the young and healthy ones will probably get by with heaps of clothes and blankets, whilst the sick ones will get sicker and the very sick ones will die. End of story.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,340
    edited August 29

    HYUFD said:

    The key for Truss may well be the last RedfieldWilton poll where she was 1% behind Starmer as preferred PM.
    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1562845017625939970?s=20&t=CoRLHUTYDh0nwHJ7jfj6Ig

    She needs to then translate that into voteshare in No 10 and sustain it. If she did then even if she still lost the Tory majority she could still win most seats

    If she is anything like as dangerous in office as she has been on campaign she won't make it to the GE. Your man Johnson is waiting "et tu Brute", knife in hand. He's put an end to the premierships of two other PMs, he's on a hattrick.
    Cameron, May, and, well, his own, so Boris has the hat trick of Prime Ministers brought down, and is on a 4-timer.

    ETA damn; scooped by BR.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,886

    In other news, the much delayed SLS rocket is heading to the moon this afternoon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_vyZiVxEEo

    Yes, fingers crossed the weather holds off for the launch.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,174

    This survey should alarm us all: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/29/almost-quarter-of-uk-plans-to-go-without-heating-this-winter-energy-price-cap

    27% of parents with children under 18 saying they plan to leave their heating off. And this was done BEFORE the price cap was announced. Some of the alt-right "well we froze when I was a kid and it never did me any harm" comments on Twitter are saying "kids will freeze so what". Not a good advert for the government whether they disagree on not.

    I remain clear that Truss will not be slamming the £100bn or so on the table that is needed. Whatever she announces will be too little, and its already too late. That government spokespeople are even today repeating the "we have already been very generous" spin beggars belief - are they mad?

    Being cruel and uncaring and incompetent is not an election-winning platform. Truss may be the first PM in history to have destroyed her reputation before even taking office.

    Good morning

    It is a fact that the government have spent 37 billion so far, yes 37 billion, and many billions are coming in the next fortnight

    I fully accept the conservative party has gone awol this summer which is shocking, but the extent of this economic crisis is overwhelming governments and the idea we can just freeze the price for 6 months is simply not addressing how it is mitigated over the next 12 to 24 months or helping businesses at all

    The left think this magic money tree of a windfall tax is the answer to everything when in practice it is not, and unless undertaken carefully will scare of investment in the energy solutions we need

    The idea whatever is announced is too late is strange as the cap does not come in until October at which time everyone will receive the £400 over 6 months as already announced including further payments and a winter fuel payment of upto £600

    It does seem ironic that a report yesterday expects electric cars will be paying considerably more than petrol or diesel

    The BBC is leading with a report from Europe that frankly frightening and lays out just how bad things may be over the next 5 to 10 years, yes 5 to 10 years

    BBC News - EU faces awful winters without gas cap - minister
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62710522
    Good morning Big_G!

    A few responses:
    1. It is already *politically* too late. They have indeed gone AWOL, the country has noticed that, the party would have to work very very hard to make up for their introspective summer.
    2. "We are giving people £400 over the next few months" is already the excuse being used - doesn't cut it as like the mealy-mouthed 5p off petrol it gets swallowed whole immediately. Needs to be a lot lot more.
    3. I'm selling my Outlander PHEV and getting a Tesla model Y next month. Energy cost per mile drops from 15p to 4p.
    4. Other governments show signs of actually caring. And are acting. Ours does not, and is not.

    27% of families say they plan to keep the heating off. You think that kind of calamity can be spun by "get a better job" or "you've had £400 you should be thanking us"?
    If families turn the heating off, or reduce the amount of heating they use, then the amount of gas consumed goes down, so reducing demand to meet supply so we don't run out.

    That's precisely what should be happening...
    And the businesses which will close - is that also what should be happening ?

    It's not exactly the operation of an efficient market when the only thing deciding which are viable and which aren't is whether they've still got another 12 months on their contact at a lower price.

    The same, of course, applies to households.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    kjh said:

    No place for a stove in my new build, but currently considering purchase of a bidirectional charger so I can charge the Leaf with cheap night time electricity for use during the day. They cost about 4 grand tho, so I don't think the sums add up.

    To be honest I don't think a stove does either. I have 3. Each cost about £1000, but after fitting (2 of my 3 needed a liner) it was about £2k. And I don't pay for wood. However I do enjoy them and for some strange reason I do enjoy preparing the wood. Very satisfying and very physical exercise. The wood piles provide a home for many animals.
    If they save you turning the central heating on they must pay for themselves the first winter I would have thought
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,058

    Typical business meeting about the energy crisis as imagined by @RochdalePioneers:

    - So we're going to turn the heating down in our German offices by 3 degrees. What about the UK?
    - We're still waiting for instructions from Liz Truss so I'm afraid it's anyone's guess what we'll have to do.

    You really do give me some belly laughs - thanks.

    The Spanish example was restricting the use of air conditioning. Which makes places uncomfortably warm. Ours will be restricting the use of heating. To make a factory or office uncomfortably cold.

    Most businesses are not going to volunteer themselves to create grief for their staff. They need to be instructed. If its the national effort, all pull together, bulldog spirit what what then people will do it.

    But the bosses just turning heating down by themselves? Some will, but most won't.

    Please keep posting the cabaret responses! I love a good comedy turn!
    I really find this extraordinary

    'Most businesses are not going to volunteer themselves to create grief for their staff. They need to be instructed. If its the national effort, all pull together, bulldog spirit what what then people will do it.'


    I ran two very successful businesses over 45 years and simply never looked at government to make decisions for me, or to take action and forward planning to address crisis that were looming

    It is an extraordinary business person who waits to be told what to do by a government, any government

    I would gently suggest this does provide an insight into your attitudes to government
    We're not talking about normal business decisions. We are talking about abnormal. Were businesses voluntarily going to a three day week before Heath instructed them to do so? Did your business?
    No - Our business remained open 7 days a week throughout
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 21,494

    Typical business meeting about the energy crisis as imagined by @RochdalePioneers:

    - So we're going to turn the heating down in our German offices by 3 degrees. What about the UK?
    - We're still waiting for instructions from Liz Truss so I'm afraid it's anyone's guess what we'll have to do.

    You really do give me some belly laughs - thanks.

    The Spanish example was restricting the use of air conditioning. Which makes places uncomfortably warm. Ours will be restricting the use of heating. To make a factory or office uncomfortably cold.

    Most businesses are not going to volunteer themselves to create grief for their staff. They need to be instructed. If its the national effort, all pull together, bulldog spirit what what then people will do it.

    But the bosses just turning heating down by themselves? Some will, but most won't.

    Please keep posting the cabaret responses! I love a good comedy turn!
    I really find this extraordinary

    'Most businesses are not going to volunteer themselves to create grief for their staff. They need to be instructed. If its the national effort, all pull together, bulldog spirit what what then people will do it.'


    I ran two very successful businesses over 45 years and simply never looked at government to make decisions for me, or to take action and forward planning to address crisis that were looming

    It is an extraordinary business person who waits to be told what to do by a government, any government

    I would gently suggest this does provide an insight into your attitudes to government
    We're not talking about normal business decisions. We are talking about abnormal. Were businesses voluntarily going to a three day week before Heath instructed them to do so? Did your business?
    No - Our business remained open 7 days a week throughout
    There you go. But there was an energy shortage, and you didn't volunteer to do your bit.

    So why should modern businesses make the opposite decision yours made?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,045

    HYUFD said:

    The key for Truss may well be the last RedfieldWilton poll where she was 1% behind Starmer as preferred PM.
    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1562845017625939970?s=20&t=CoRLHUTYDh0nwHJ7jfj6Ig

    She needs to then translate that into voteshare in No 10 and sustain it. If she did then even if she still lost the Tory majority she could still win most seats

    She needs the conservative party to get behind her 100% once elected otherwise the party faces extinction in 2024

    Will you come on bord and accept Johnson is over and the party needs to move on
    Well I will come 100% behind her if she is elected leader despite voting for Sunak as I have every other Tory leader since I joined the party in 1998. However if she is trailing well behind in the polls this time next year whether the party will do so is another matter.

    As for extinction the party is still far better placed than in Spring 2019 when it not only trailed Labour but had been overtaken by the Brexit Party as the main party of the right too
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,192

    Your man Johnson is waiting "et tu Brute", knife in hand. He's put an end to the premierships of two other PMs, he's on a hattrick.

    Does the Own Goal count?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 27,608

    Typical business meeting about the energy crisis as imagined by @RochdalePioneers:

    - So we're going to turn the heating down in our German offices by 3 degrees. What about the UK?
    - We're still waiting for instructions from Liz Truss so I'm afraid it's anyone's guess what we'll have to do.

    You really do give me some belly laughs - thanks.

    The Spanish example was restricting the use of air conditioning. Which makes places uncomfortably warm. Ours will be restricting the use of heating. To make a factory or office uncomfortably cold.

    Most businesses are not going to volunteer themselves to create grief for their staff. They need to be instructed. If its the national effort, all pull together, bulldog spirit what what then people will do it.

    But the bosses just turning heating down by themselves? Some will, but most won't.

    Please keep posting the cabaret responses! I love a good comedy turn!
    I really find this extraordinary

    'Most businesses are not going to volunteer themselves to create grief for their staff. They need to be instructed. If its the national effort, all pull together, bulldog spirit what what then people will do it.'


    I ran two very successful businesses over 45 years and simply never looked at government to make decisions for me, or to take action and forward planning to address crisis that were looming

    It is an extraordinary business person who waits to be told what to do by a government, any government

    I would gently suggest this does provide an insight into your attitudes to government
    Worth pointing out though that there are limits on how low you are allowed to make the temperature in an office. Currently under HSE legislation it is 16°. Although they are not actually breaking the law, any company maintaining the temperature below that point could find itself in trouble with the HSE and (in larger companies) the Unions. Few companies are going to breach that lower limit for fear of getting into trouble.

    One obvious solution would be to lower that limit temporarily. Drop it to 14° and most companies will follow that guidance.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,144
    Talk this morning about reforming the EU energy market. Everyone assumes that this is all about Russia. However Russia provides less than half of Europe's gas. Given the inevitable economising that will take place and alternatives sought do the current prices make sense or is there something fundamentally wrong with the energy market?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,985
    Morning all :)

    It's probably a truism whatever any Government does is usually wrong however well-intentioned.

    If you target help, those just beyond the range of that help shout they've been left behind, abandoned, neglected etc while if you give everyone help some will ask why help is being given to people with considerable wealth who don't need it and it therefore represents a waste of public money etc.

    The solution presumably is a complicated bureaucratic structure which while well-meaning will immediately be criticised for being a) too complicated so those actually needing the help don't get it and b) being a waste of public money.

    None of that means Governments shouldn't try.

    The balance has changed. The maintenance of economic growth is now seen as of lesser importance than the preservation of life and I'd argue any Government's responsibility should always be more to the latter than the former but I fully accept there's a medium and longer term cost to that approach - doesn't make it wrong.

    There's a reasonable argument we have binged on energy use and consumption in recent times and forgotten the lessons of the early 1970s when we were forced to adapt rapidly to having a greater awareness of the energy we use. That stringency also has to be balanced - yes, we can turn off half the street lights to save money but that doesn't send a good message in terms of individual safety especially but not exclusively for women.

    Reducing our fuel usage shouldn't be a matter of extremes - however, it does require us to ask whether some of the excesses of our current culture (both business and leisure) may have to be curtailed for a while. In truth, this started with the pandemic - some supermarkets which used to open 24 hours no longer do so.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,340
    Sandpit said:

    geoffw said:

    Having hitherto been agnostic between Truss and Sunak I'm now concerned that she thinks cutting taxes is the thing to do in present circs.

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Truss does give off worrying indications of being woefully out of her depth. Johnson threw red meat at Tory neanderthals but was usually able to do it with a wink that suggested he wasn’t being entirely serious. Truss seems to believe what she says. Hopefully, she doesn’t.

    In happier news, there’s a definite whiff of autumn in the early morning air. The sun is softer, there’s a dewy sheen on the fields and a chill in the air. Summer is ending. The best time of year approaches.

    I'd be more inclined to believe that Truss's recent comments could be disregarded if she hadn't continued with the same line long after the leadership contest was effectively over with the vast majority of Tory members having already voted.
    There is no big reveal of a "fooled you!" plan to do the exact opposite of what she has said eleventy times on the election tour. She sincerely believes that tax cuts and removing the green levy are the right approach and that handouts and "bungs" of large amounts of money is not the right approach.

    Unlike the Johnson government, the Truss government will be ideological, with an actual belief system. I have no doubt that her hand will be forced to do *something* but it won't be a £100bn bazooka and it won't be a windfall tax handed back to consumers.

    So having let people suffer for months in the fear of what is coming, now having said "wait and see", and then with hugely inadequate and wrongly targeted small change coming her government will revert to her usual rhetoric. Workshy. Lazy. Get a better job. Because that is what she believes.
    Why should it be a £100bn bazooka?

    That you will determine whatever Truss does is insufficient is fairly inevitable, but to demand £100bn is just ridiculous.
    The £100 billion number comes from what the energy companies say is going to be required. Now that could just be ramping but it certainly isn't the case that RP has just picked a huge number out of the air. Indeed I used exactly the same number yesterday to point out how inadequate the Truss VAT plans were.
    It will be what is required if you think the taxpayer (or future taxpayers more likely) should 100% absorb the cost of what is coming rather than people absorbing some of it themselves via belt tightening and using less fuel.

    Personally I'm not completely sold on the idea that our children when they're taxpayers should be facing the bill for what people don't want to pay for today.

    Some support is essential, absolutely, but somewhere between "nothing" and "everything" is surely more appropriate. Where though, is an important thing to think about.
    If the government are going to subsidise fully the increase in price, then there’s going to have to be rationing - because the supply is going to be down 15-20%. That’s why the price is going up.

    Only by allowing the price to go higher, will residents and businesses be incentivised to reduce their energy requirements this winter. The middle classes and large businesses are going to have to deal with it.
    Businesses will deal with it by shutting down. Indeed they already are.
    IIRC some of the larger energy users such as factories, have contracts with power companies that let them get partially cut off at periods of high demand, so they move their shifts around when it’s exceptionally cold.

    Yes, there’s likely a need to do something with small businesses, especially in retail and hospitality.
    They are on interruptible tariffs which allows the energy companies to cut them off (with due warning) in return for paying a lower charge when there's no stress in the system. Amazingly it was the case some years ago (not sure whether it still is) that some hospitals and schools chose to have such contracts.

    Presumably, any hospitals or schools signing up to interruptible tarrifs, have adequate diesel backup generators to take the load for a few hours?

    That’s a big ‘presumably’ I know.

    I expect every supermarket car park to have a containerised genny or two this winter. Buy shares in whoever is making and renting them!
    What's the spread on firms with backup generators that have never been tested so that failover does not work, or have been tested once a month but never refuelled after tests? I once worked for a company whose diesel generator fuel in outdoor tanks had frozen (aka gelled) in winter.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 27,608
    Sandpit said:

    Icarus said:

    Are you sure that there is a shortage of Gas in the UK: "The UK exported £3.4 billion of gas in 2021, increasing by 167% from £1.3 billion in 2020. The trade in gas has been consistently high since the latter half of 2021, as global gas demand increased following the conclusion of many of the strictest coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic restrictions."

    UK government needs to take control of gas produced in the UK . The gas could be used for electrictity generation or as is happening already coal fired stations such as Radcliffe (Junction 24 of the M!) should be kept in service until on-shore renewables (solar and wind) come on line.

    Presumably you’d be equally happy with Biden taking control of gas produced in the USA, for domestic energy generation rather than export to Europe?

    (A significant amount of UK “exports” were previously imported from the US, because the UK invested in import terminals).
    If the threat is that we will have blackouts, companies will go bust and people will die because of lack of available energy then yes I think it is absolutely reasonable for the Government to put a temporary ban on exports.

    If we have enough gas or we cannot physically use the gas we have at the rates it is being produced then of course export it. But if there is the sorts of shortages that you and Bart are talking about then exporting it to third countries whilst failing to supply the home market is suicidally stupid.

    Again, the market in its purest form is not always right.
  • TresTres Posts: 1,359

    Why is the BBC now routinely reporting on music festivals?

    Every day recently I've seen a story on their News page about the Leeds festival - today it's considered important that I know that the Arctic Monkeys closed the festival with a huge singalong.

    Who cares about this that wasn't already there involved in the singalong - and so doesn't need to be told about it?

    It's the social calendar for the 21st century. I'm sure they still have news stories about things like Ascot and the Boat Race that most people have no interest in too.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,058

    Typical business meeting about the energy crisis as imagined by @RochdalePioneers:

    - So we're going to turn the heating down in our German offices by 3 degrees. What about the UK?
    - We're still waiting for instructions from Liz Truss so I'm afraid it's anyone's guess what we'll have to do.

    You really do give me some belly laughs - thanks.

    The Spanish example was restricting the use of air conditioning. Which makes places uncomfortably warm. Ours will be restricting the use of heating. To make a factory or office uncomfortably cold.

    Most businesses are not going to volunteer themselves to create grief for their staff. They need to be instructed. If its the national effort, all pull together, bulldog spirit what what then people will do it.

    But the bosses just turning heating down by themselves? Some will, but most won't.

    Please keep posting the cabaret responses! I love a good comedy turn!
    I really find this extraordinary

    'Most businesses are not going to volunteer themselves to create grief for their staff. They need to be instructed. If its the national effort, all pull together, bulldog spirit what what then people will do it.'


    I ran two very successful businesses over 45 years and simply never looked at government to make decisions for me, or to take action and forward planning to address crisis that were looming

    It is an extraordinary business person who waits to be told what to do by a government, any government

    I would gently suggest this does provide an insight into your attitudes to government
    We're not talking about normal business decisions. We are talking about abnormal. Were businesses voluntarily going to a three day week before Heath instructed them to do so? Did your business?
    No - Our business remained open 7 days a week throughout
    There you go. But there was an energy shortage, and you didn't volunteer to do your bit.

    So why should modern businesses make the opposite decision yours made?
    Our business at the time was a local convenience store serving the community and as such was open 7 days a week and greatly appreciated
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,287

    Talk this morning about reforming the EU energy market. Everyone assumes that this is all about Russia. However Russia provides less than half of Europe's gas. Given the inevitable economising that will take place and alternatives sought do the current prices make sense or is there something fundamentally wrong with the energy market?

    As I said last week I think that the current prices are being driven much more by speculators than by people forward buying gas that they actually need. Government intervention by those with stocks might well have a really significant impact on the futures price at this point.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,906
    IshmaelZ said:

    kjh said:

    No place for a stove in my new build, but currently considering purchase of a bidirectional charger so I can charge the Leaf with cheap night time electricity for use during the day. They cost about 4 grand tho, so I don't think the sums add up.

    To be honest I don't think a stove does either. I have 3. Each cost about £1000, but after fitting (2 of my 3 needed a liner) it was about £2k. And I don't pay for wood. However I do enjoy them and for some strange reason I do enjoy preparing the wood. Very satisfying and very physical exercise. The wood piles provide a home for many animals.
    If they save you turning the central heating on they must pay for themselves the first winter I would have thought
    Fair point. I guess I wasn't thinking of normal use in a normal house. One is in our holiday home which only has single brick walls, so I guess it would there, although none of it gets to our kitchen which is an extension. Another is in an Orangery in our main home so has no impact. It goes on for special occasions only and doesn't heat the rest of the house and the other is in the living room at one end of a large house so has little impact elsewhere.

    But I guess I wasn't thinking. In a more normal set up it must do yes. Apologies for posting tosh.
  • I've just been learning about 2SLGBTQI+ terminology. 2SLGBTQI+ is one of the "Common acronyms used within the Government of Canada"

    https://femmes-egalite-genres.canada.ca/en/free-to-be-me/2slgbtqi-plus-glossary.html

    Aside from usual complaint about not knowing what acronyms are (how would you pronounce 2SLGBTQI+ - toosulgubutkweeplus?), it was quite interesting to learn about "Two Spirit" people in Canada. And that it's far too binary a term for the Indigiqueers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-spirit
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,174

    kjh said:

    Off topic - Does anyone know what the arguments are for Trump holding papers he shouldn't have? Is it just stupidity or are there other reasons?

    Do you mean arguments from the Trump side? I think the ideas they've floated are either that he had a right to them so it's none of anyone else's business, and that they concerned things he thought the American people should know about so he declassified them and kept the docs so he could tell them (but apparently hadn't got around to the telling them part).
    I posted at the top of the thread a critique of his arguments about executive privilege (basically they're nonsense).

    As is the bluster about declassifying.

    This was one of the concerns which precipitated the raid.

    Classified Material on Human Intelligence Sources Helped Trigger Alarm
    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/26/us/politics/trump-affidavit-intelligence-spies.html
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 21,494

    Typical business meeting about the energy crisis as imagined by @RochdalePioneers:

    - So we're going to turn the heating down in our German offices by 3 degrees. What about the UK?
    - We're still waiting for instructions from Liz Truss so I'm afraid it's anyone's guess what we'll have to do.

    You really do give me some belly laughs - thanks.

    The Spanish example was restricting the use of air conditioning. Which makes places uncomfortably warm. Ours will be restricting the use of heating. To make a factory or office uncomfortably cold.

    Most businesses are not going to volunteer themselves to create grief for their staff. They need to be instructed. If its the national effort, all pull together, bulldog spirit what what then people will do it.

    But the bosses just turning heating down by themselves? Some will, but most won't.

    Please keep posting the cabaret responses! I love a good comedy turn!
    I really find this extraordinary

    'Most businesses are not going to volunteer themselves to create grief for their staff. They need to be instructed. If its the national effort, all pull together, bulldog spirit what what then people will do it.'


    I ran two very successful businesses over 45 years and simply never looked at government to make decisions for me, or to take action and forward planning to address crisis that were looming

    It is an extraordinary business person who waits to be told what to do by a government, any government

    I would gently suggest this does provide an insight into your attitudes to government
    We're not talking about normal business decisions. We are talking about abnormal. Were businesses voluntarily going to a three day week before Heath instructed them to do so? Did your business?
    No - Our business remained open 7 days a week throughout
    There you go. But there was an energy shortage, and you didn't volunteer to do your bit.

    So why should modern businesses make the opposite decision yours made?
    Our business at the time was a local convenience store serving the community and as such was open 7 days a week and greatly appreciated
    But you said that its extraordinary that business needs to be told what to do by government. Yet the three day week - and Covid restrictions - were literally that. Industry didn't volunteer to close, it had to be compelled.

    With regards to heating we are talking about business breaking the law. You insist they should just do this because its good business, then cite 45 years in business, then confirm yours did no such thing.

    This country needs LEADERSHIP. I understand and respect your "they can't be that bad" optimism about today's Tory party. But they really are that bad.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,174

    Typical business meeting about the energy crisis as imagined by @RochdalePioneers:

    - So we're going to turn the heating down in our German offices by 3 degrees. What about the UK?
    - We're still waiting for instructions from Liz Truss so I'm afraid it's anyone's guess what we'll have to do.

    You really do give me some belly laughs - thanks.

    The Spanish example was restricting the use of air conditioning. Which makes places uncomfortably warm. Ours will be restricting the use of heating. To make a factory or office uncomfortably cold.

    Most businesses are not going to volunteer themselves to create grief for their staff. They need to be instructed. If its the national effort, all pull together, bulldog spirit what what then people will do it.

    But the bosses just turning heating down by themselves? Some will, but most won't.

    Please keep posting the cabaret responses! I love a good comedy turn!
    I really find this extraordinary

    'Most businesses are not going to volunteer themselves to create grief for their staff. They need to be instructed. If its the national effort, all pull together, bulldog spirit what what then people will do it.'


    I ran two very successful businesses over 45 years and simply never looked at government to make decisions for me, or to take action and forward planning to address crisis that were looming

    It is an extraordinary business person who waits to be told what to do by a government, any government

    I would gently suggest this does provide an insight into your attitudes to government
    We're not talking about normal business decisions. We are talking about abnormal. Were businesses voluntarily going to a three day week before Heath instructed them to do so? Did your business?
    No - Our business remained open 7 days a week throughout
    Did your business face a 6x rise in energy costs ?

  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,144
    DavidL said:

    Talk this morning about reforming the EU energy market. Everyone assumes that this is all about Russia. However Russia provides less than half of Europe's gas. Given the inevitable economising that will take place and alternatives sought do the current prices make sense or is there something fundamentally wrong with the energy market?

    As I said last week I think that the current prices are being driven much more by speculators than by people forward buying gas that they actually need. Government intervention by those with stocks might well have a really significant impact on the futures price at this point.
    I would start referring to it as the gas market crisis. How do we make it work better? Odd that a market liberal candidate for Prime minister isn't focusing on this.

    We still produce half our own gas. Much of the rest comes from Norway. We avoided becoming dependent on Russian supplies. I'm starting to wonder if we shouldn't have bothered.
  • RichardrRichardr Posts: 34

    Sandpit said:

    Icarus said:

    Are you sure that there is a shortage of Gas in the UK: "The UK exported £3.4 billion of gas in 2021, increasing by 167% from £1.3 billion in 2020. The trade in gas has been consistently high since the latter half of 2021, as global gas demand increased following the conclusion of many of the strictest coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic restrictions."

    UK government needs to take control of gas produced in the UK . The gas could be used for electrictity generation or as is happening already coal fired stations such as Radcliffe (Junction 24 of the M!) should be kept in service until on-shore renewables (solar and wind) come on line.

    Presumably you’d be equally happy with Biden taking control of gas produced in the USA, for domestic energy generation rather than export to Europe?

    (A significant amount of UK “exports” were previously imported from the US, because the UK invested in import terminals).
    If the threat is that we will have blackouts, companies will go bust and people will die because of lack of available energy then yes I think it is absolutely reasonable for the Government to put a temporary ban on exports.

    If we have enough gas or we cannot physically use the gas we have at the rates it is being produced then of course export it. But if there is the sorts of shortages that you and Bart are talking about then exporting it to third countries whilst failing to supply the home market is suicidally stupid.

    Again, the market in its purest form is not always right.
    Given that we import about 50% of our gas - pulling out of the European market for gas will not be the best idea.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/articles/trendsinukimportsandexportsoffuels/2022-06-29

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,591
    Sandpit said:

    geoffw said:

    Having hitherto been agnostic between Truss and Sunak I'm now concerned that she thinks cutting taxes is the thing to do in present circs.

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Truss does give off worrying indications of being woefully out of her depth. Johnson threw red meat at Tory neanderthals but was usually able to do it with a wink that suggested he wasn’t being entirely serious. Truss seems to believe what she says. Hopefully, she doesn’t.

    In happier news, there’s a definite whiff of autumn in the early morning air. The sun is softer, there’s a dewy sheen on the fields and a chill in the air. Summer is ending. The best time of year approaches.

    I'd be more inclined to believe that Truss's recent comments could be disregarded if she hadn't continued with the same line long after the leadership contest was effectively over with the vast majority of Tory members having already voted.
    There is no big reveal of a "fooled you!" plan to do the exact opposite of what she has said eleventy times on the election tour. She sincerely believes that tax cuts and removing the green levy are the right approach and that handouts and "bungs" of large amounts of money is not the right approach.

    Unlike the Johnson government, the Truss government will be ideological, with an actual belief system. I have no doubt that her hand will be forced to do *something* but it won't be a £100bn bazooka and it won't be a windfall tax handed back to consumers.

    So having let people suffer for months in the fear of what is coming, now having said "wait and see", and then with hugely inadequate and wrongly targeted small change coming her government will revert to her usual rhetoric. Workshy. Lazy. Get a better job. Because that is what she believes.
    Why should it be a £100bn bazooka?

    That you will determine whatever Truss does is insufficient is fairly inevitable, but to demand £100bn is just ridiculous.
    The £100 billion number comes from what the energy companies say is going to be required. Now that could just be ramping but it certainly isn't the case that RP has just picked a huge number out of the air. Indeed I used exactly the same number yesterday to point out how inadequate the Truss VAT plans were.
    It will be what is required if you think the taxpayer (or future taxpayers more likely) should 100% absorb the cost of what is coming rather than people absorbing some of it themselves via belt tightening and using less fuel.

    Personally I'm not completely sold on the idea that our children when they're taxpayers should be facing the bill for what people don't want to pay for today.

    Some support is essential, absolutely, but somewhere between "nothing" and "everything" is surely more appropriate. Where though, is an important thing to think about.
    If the government are going to subsidise fully the increase in price, then there’s going to have to be rationing - because the supply is going to be down 15-20%. That’s why the price is going up.

    Only by allowing the price to go higher, will residents and businesses be incentivised to reduce their energy requirements this winter. The middle classes and large businesses are going to have to deal with it.
    Businesses will deal with it by shutting down. Indeed they already are.
    IIRC some of the larger energy users such as factories, have contracts with power companies that let them get partially cut off at periods of high demand, so they move their shifts around when it’s exceptionally cold.

    Yes, there’s likely a need to do something with small businesses, especially in retail and hospitality.
    They are on interruptible tariffs which allows the energy companies to cut them off (with due warning) in return for paying a lower charge when there's no stress in the system. Amazingly it was the case some years ago (not sure whether it still is) that some hospitals and schools chose to have such contracts.

    Presumably, any hospitals or schools signing up to interruptible tarrifs, have adequate diesel backup generators to take the load for a few hours?

    That’s a big ‘presumably’ I know.

    I expect every supermarket car park to have a containerised genny or two this winter. Buy shares in whoever is making and renting them!
    Aggreko used to be the Company, but it delisted last year
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,219
    Trump was claiming that a President could declare any documents as unclassified, yet the Democrats deny this. Who is telling porkies?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 9,936
    edited August 29

    Sandpit said:

    Icarus said:

    Are you sure that there is a shortage of Gas in the UK: "The UK exported £3.4 billion of gas in 2021, increasing by 167% from £1.3 billion in 2020. The trade in gas has been consistently high since the latter half of 2021, as global gas demand increased following the conclusion of many of the strictest coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic restrictions."

    UK government needs to take control of gas produced in the UK . The gas could be used for electrictity generation or as is happening already coal fired stations such as Radcliffe (Junction 24 of the M!) should be kept in service until on-shore renewables (solar and wind) come on line.

    Presumably you’d be equally happy with Biden taking control of gas produced in the USA, for domestic energy generation rather than export to Europe?

    (A significant amount of UK “exports” were previously imported from the US, because the UK invested in import terminals).
    If the threat is that we will have blackouts, companies will go bust and people will die because of lack of available energy then yes I think it is absolutely reasonable for the Government to put a temporary ban on exports.

    If we have enough gas or we cannot physically use the gas we have at the rates it is being produced then of course export it. But if there is the sorts of shortages that you and Bart are talking about then exporting it to third countries whilst failing to supply the home market is suicidally stupid.

    Again, the market in its purest form is not always right.
    But we don't physically produce enough gas. Export figures run at roughly 1/6th of what import figures do.

    Exporting when we have a surplus (eg summer) then importing 6x that amount when we have a deficit (eg winter) makes sense, both strategically and economically.

    The last thing we should surely want, as a significant net importer of gas, is to insist that exports are a bad thing. We need other nations to export to us, or will face far worse than a mere gas price rise.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,748

    Icarus said:

    Are you sure that there is a shortage of Gas in the UK: "The UK exported £3.4 billion of gas in 2021, increasing by 167% from £1.3 billion in 2020. The trade in gas has been consistently high since the latter half of 2021, as global gas demand increased following the conclusion of many of the strictest coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic restrictions."

    UK government needs to take control of gas produced in the UK . The gas could be used for electrictity generation or as is happening already coal fired stations such as Radcliffe (Junction 24 of the M!) should be kept in service until on-shore renewables (solar and wind) come on line.

    Odd that you quoted only one half of the paragraph that sentence came from. Adding in the missing first sentence rather changes the interpretation of it.

    The UK imported £19.6 billion of gas in 2021; a notable increase of 312% from £4.8 billion in 2020. The UK exported £3.4 billion of gas in 2021, increasing by 167% from £1.3 billion in 2020

    £19.6 bn of imports and £3.4 bn of exports. You tell me, do you think when there's a global energy shortage, does that mean we face a shortage or not?
    One thing this isn't is a GLOBAL energy shortage.
    It's local to Europe.
This discussion has been closed.