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Putting the interest in interest rates – politicalbetting.com

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  • Icarus said:

    Icarus said:

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    If they are not then what indeed is the point in them?
    I dont see why they cant say 'we are working on a comprehensive package and, if i become PM on Sept 5th, will hold an emergency budget to present and vote on these plans before any cap changes take place'
    That she hasn't leads me to suspect they arent.
    I really do think it is beyond belief that they are not working on the proposals as the COE has already said

    I suspect the problem is Truss still is foreign secretary and cannot assume she will become PM and is standing by that position
    Its increasingly probable that they are hopeless, witless goobers.
    Talk now of a £6000 cap. 'Tax cuts' is like saying we need to deal with that wasp before we fight off this T Rex
    If that is all it is then it is over, not only for Truss, but the conservative party
    Deservedly so in those circs
    I absolutely agree but I really do not think even Truss is that idiotic
    When do we expect the emergency budget? Unless things change they only have from 5th -22nd September, with the HoC returning on 17th October.

    The problem is that a quick announcement -before 22nd September will probably produce ill thought out policies. If they take the time - at the end of October - to make sure the policies are watertight then the delay will make them look weak.
    The emergency budget is due on the 21st September

    The HOC returns from the 5th September until the 22nd September before adjourning for the conference season
    Mad. You cannot produce a budget and then not allow MPs, of all parties, time to discuss it.
    Why not?

    We did the Parliamentary scrutiny of the Brilliant Brexit Deal in a day, and that caused no problems whatsoever.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,280

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Fishing said:

    Roger said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Brexit has turned England into a turd world country.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/look-bright-side-sea-sewage-27791730

    Morning Stu, it seems it's Sectarian Sunday.

    Publicly owned Scottish Water features in your linked piece. Sturgeon's Shitty Scotland?

    When they were publicly owned, you had no choice but to swim in a boring sea, that was just wet all over. But now you can either carry on in a sea that’s old-fashioned, or you can choose a more interesting one with islands of mucky toilet paper floating through it.

    Katy Taylor, of Scottish Water, reassured us by saying it was up to the public to decide whether it’s safe, hinting we shouldn’t worry because the sea is “95% rainwater”.


    Your man Mark Steel doesn't seem to have noticed that that one *is* publicly owned.
    You need to look up the meaning of 'sectarian'. I don't see Stu wearing a footie scarf while chanting "* the Pope". It detracts from your PBToryexpertise on Scottish
    matters.
    Okay then. It’s “Anglophobic August”. Better?

    The Tory Party seem not to think so*. The Tories actually tried claiming that Scottish criticism of Tory* policies was inherently racist and Anglophobic, but they back-tracked within a very few hours. That was in the months before the referendum of 2014, and I remember that very well - evidently a coordinated message out to all their mouthpieces in the news outlets, then an almost instant reverse ferret.

    *Not sure about today.

    **UKG included LDs at the time, of course.
    The criticism was of Dickson personally. He changed the headline of a piece, critical of water quality in “Britain”, to “England”, despite the article itself clearly referring to water companies on both sides of the border. Scottish Water is publicly owned.

    Scottish Nationalism is not inherently Anglophobic. Stuart Dickson absolutely is.

    Anyone with a brain is anglophobic at the moment. England voted Brexit and voted Tory even with the knowledge Johnson would be Prime Minister. The Scots didn't. Can you blame them for sneering and loathing us for
    the choices we foisted on them?
    Actually 40% or so of Scots did. Why are they never mentioned?
    If 100% of Scots had voted to Remain then
    the U.K. would have Remained.
    That would have been an absolutely hilarious result. Can you imagine the frothing on here?
    Indeed. Nations and nationalities are idiotic arbitrary divisions. I’d abolish them all. Municipalities, and loose, fluid, federations thereof, should be the basic governing unit.

    That is a great idea. I feel a lot more attachment to my neighbourhood and city than I do to the country we are located in. Real local devolution plus a world government to manage global issues would be an interesting setup.
    Or... Lots of layers, local as possible, large scale as necessary?

    One of the odd experiences of going to Europe is seeing multiple flags, representing everything from a town to a continent. Equal in size and status. Somehow, the British (by which, let's be honest, I mean the English) don't cope with that well. Why?
    Because the English used to rule half the world and so a lot of English people who might otherwise feel that they had received a raw deal out of life got to feel good about themselves by focusing intensely on the English part of their identity to the detriment of all others. Notice how British identity in Scotland has waxed and waned with the rise and fall of the British Empire. The English would feel a lot happier, and certainly be a hell of a lot better governed, if they embraced regionalism, localism and Europe. But I'm not English so it's not really my business.
    I'm not sure I understand this. The English don't seem to focus hugely on their Englishness from what I've seen. It's a very old country with a centralised state. Italy and Germany had much more history of regional government. Until recently a lot of England fans would wave the Union Jack rather than St George. Nice that you suggest it was the English not the British who ruled half the world.
    Do we have our first PB Engsh expert?
    I'll take that as sincere. I'm not English so I'm a little reluctant to claim expertise.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Icarus said:

    Icarus said:

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    If they are not then what indeed is the point in them?
    I dont see why they cant say 'we are working on a comprehensive package and, if i become PM on Sept 5th, will hold an emergency budget to present and vote on these plans before any cap changes take place'
    That she hasn't leads me to suspect they arent.
    I really do think it is beyond belief that they are not working on the proposals as the COE has already said

    I suspect the problem is Truss still is foreign secretary and cannot assume she will become PM and is standing by that position
    Its increasingly probable that they are hopeless, witless goobers.
    Talk now of a £6000 cap. 'Tax cuts' is like saying we need to deal with that wasp before we fight off this T Rex
    If that is all it is then it is over, not only for Truss, but the conservative party
    Deservedly so in those circs
    I absolutely agree but I really do not think even Truss is that idiotic
    When do we expect the emergency budget? Unless things change they only have from 5th -22nd September, with the HoC returning on 17th October.

    The problem is that a quick announcement -before 22nd September will probably produce ill thought out policies. If they take the time - at the end of October - to make sure the policies are watertight then the delay will make them look weak.
    The emergency budget is due on the 21st September

    The HOC returns from the 5th September until the 22nd September before adjourning for the conference season
    Mad. You cannot produce a budget and then not allow MPs, of all parties, time to discuss it.
    On budget day there's a motion on which MPs vote on the day itself approving all the petrol up by 20p at midnight tonight stuff. Possibly you could do that and then push off for recess and then have the rest of the debate on the Bill on reconvening.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,822
    edited August 2022
    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,376

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    Team Truss is heavy on free market headbangers for whom any intervention other than tax cuts is anathema, and some aren't sure about tax cuts. I doubt Truss is working on any plan; instead she will make a last minute choice from whatever menu the civil service presents next month.
    Both Zahawi and Kwarteng have publicly stated they are looking at the cost of living crisis and will have proposals to submit to the new PM

    It is also understood the government are looking at the energy companies proposals for a two year freeze in the cap as discussed on here last night

    There will be proposals, and they will be announced by the 21st September, but of course earlier post the new PM taking office would be sensible
    Zahawi and Kwarteng are both in the current government so do not need to wait a month (and so is Truss, come to mention it) if they have any viable proposals.

    The only government action we have seen was instigated months ago by Rishi Sunak; the only rival plans are from Sunak (again), Labour and energy companies themselves.
    I would just respectively suggest the conservative party are currently in the process of electing a new leader and they are not going to announce anything before the 6th September

    That is the reality of the situation, and the conservative party will have to live with the consequences
    Look at it the other way, though.

    What is the pressing issue of the moment, and probably the next two years? Cost of living, especially energy.

    And Truss is planning to get into No 10 before telling us what she plans to do about the biggest issue facing her?

    That's not on.

    (And she has says what she wants to do, which is cut taxes. It's just we don't believe that is her final answer, because it's so tangential to the size and location of the problem.)
    I must have been imagining the massed ranks of PB shrewdies predicting disaster for Truss due to her off the cuff policy announcements followed by retractions. Now they want her to give chapter and verse on her energy crisis package on the stump.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,258

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    Team Truss is heavy on free market headbangers for whom any intervention other than tax cuts is anathema, and some aren't sure about tax cuts. I doubt Truss is working on any plan; instead she will make a last minute choice from whatever menu the civil service presents next month.
    Both Zahawi and Kwarteng have publicly stated they are looking at the cost of living crisis and will have proposals to submit to the new PM

    It is also understood the government are looking at the energy companies proposals for a two year freeze in the cap as discussed on here last night

    There will be proposals, and they will be announced by the 21st September, but of course earlier post the new PM taking office would be sensible
    Zahawi and Kwarteng are both in the current government so do not need to wait a month (and so is Truss, come to mention it) if they have any viable proposals.

    The only government action we have seen was instigated months ago by Rishi Sunak; the only rival plans are from Sunak (again), Labour and energy companies themselves.
    I would just respectively suggest the conservative party are currently in the process of electing a new leader and they are not going to announce anything before the 6th September

    That is the reality of the situation, and the conservative party will have to live with the consequences
    Look at it the other way, though.

    What is the pressing issue of the moment, and probably the next two years? Cost of living, especially energy.

    And Truss is planning to get into No 10 before telling us what she plans to do about the biggest issue facing her?

    That's not on.

    (And she has says what she wants to do, which is cut taxes. It's just we don't believe that is her final answer, because it's so tangential to the size and location of the problem.)
    In reality the Tory party members and press fan club do give a lot of credit to what their politicians say they want to do whether it is believable or not. Even once in power more emphasis is given to ambitions than actions.

    The wider electorate won't be so forgiving or deluded but to win the contest she has calculated correctly that saying what the selectorate want to hear is most important.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,280
    Dynamo said:

    Dynamo said:

    rcs1000 said:

    moonshine said:

    This failed assassination on Dugin is likely to enrage Putin and his gang of thieves. Even more than the embarrassment of Crimean holidaymakers seeing his Black Sea strength inflamed with their own eyes. Could be a dangerous couple of weeks ahead.

    A successful assasination of Dubin would have also, one supposes, enraged Putin & Co.
    Unless Putin was behind the assassination of course.

    If a high profile Russian political figure dies, the order usually traces back to a falling out with the Kremlin.
    Yes. Anyone who looks like they might be getting to be too popular suddenly looks like a potential rallying point for discontent.
    @Barty - I assume you mean when they get murdered, not just when they die.

    How many "high profile Russian political figures" can either of you name who were assassinated in the last 10 years and for whom the overwhelmingly likely cause of death was that an order went out from the Kremlin?

    Boris Nemtsov is probably on your list. Who else?

    Boris Berezovsky wasn't a political figure, was never going to be anybody's rallying point, and in any case nobody would put it at p>0.9 that the order came solely from the Kremlin. The coroner said he may have topped himself (not that I think that's remotely likely) and recorded an open verdict.

    Names please.
    Successful assassinations (not botched jobs).
    From the past 10 years (not from the Yeltsin years).
    High-profile political figures (not mafia figures who had little to do with politics).
    And Russians.
    After a falling-out with the Kremlin.

    You're fantasising. Putin has mostly been highly popular and would have defeated Nemtsov or Khodorkovsky in an election. All that means is what it says. But if you want to understand Putin...
    This is the kind of image Putin had for many people in Russia, at least before the Russo-Ukrainian war started this year:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co8s0egftsc
    If he's so popular why did he need to be such a tyrant and have complete control of the media?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,376

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Fishing said:

    Roger said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Brexit has turned England into a turd world country.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/look-bright-side-sea-sewage-27791730

    Morning Stu, it seems it's Sectarian Sunday.

    Publicly owned Scottish Water features in your linked piece. Sturgeon's Shitty Scotland?

    When they were publicly owned, you had no choice but to swim in a boring sea, that was just wet all over. But now you can either carry on in a sea that’s old-fashioned, or you can choose a more interesting one with islands of mucky toilet paper floating through it.

    Katy Taylor, of Scottish Water, reassured us by saying it was up to the public to decide whether it’s safe, hinting we shouldn’t worry because the sea is “95% rainwater”.


    Your man Mark Steel doesn't seem to have noticed that that one *is* publicly owned.
    You need to look up the meaning of 'sectarian'. I don't see Stu wearing a footie scarf while chanting "* the Pope". It detracts from your PBToryexpertise on Scottish
    matters.
    Okay then. It’s “Anglophobic August”. Better?

    The Tory Party seem not to think so*. The Tories actually tried claiming that Scottish criticism of Tory* policies was inherently racist and Anglophobic, but they back-tracked within a very few hours. That was in the months before the referendum of 2014, and I remember that very well - evidently a coordinated message out to all their mouthpieces in the news outlets, then an almost instant reverse ferret.

    *Not sure about today.

    **UKG included LDs at the time, of course.
    The criticism was of Dickson personally. He changed the headline of a piece, critical of water quality in “Britain”, to “England”, despite the article itself clearly referring to water companies on both sides of the border. Scottish Water is publicly owned.

    Scottish Nationalism is not inherently Anglophobic. Stuart Dickson absolutely is.

    Anyone with a brain is anglophobic at the moment. England voted Brexit and voted Tory even with the knowledge Johnson would be Prime Minister. The Scots didn't. Can you blame them for sneering and loathing us for
    the choices we foisted on them?
    Actually 40% or so of Scots did. Why are they never mentioned?
    If 100% of Scots had voted to Remain then
    the U.K. would have Remained.
    That would have been an absolutely hilarious result. Can you imagine the frothing on here?
    Indeed. Nations and nationalities are idiotic arbitrary divisions. I’d abolish them all. Municipalities, and loose, fluid, federations thereof, should be the basic governing unit.

    That is a great idea. I feel a lot more attachment to my neighbourhood and city than I do to the country we are located in. Real local devolution plus a world government to manage global issues would be an interesting setup.
    Or... Lots of layers, local as possible, large scale as necessary?

    One of the odd experiences of going to Europe is seeing multiple flags, representing everything from a town to a continent. Equal in size and status. Somehow, the British (by which, let's be honest, I mean the English) don't cope with that well. Why?
    Because the English used to rule half the world and so a lot of English people who might otherwise feel that they had received a raw deal out of life got to feel good about themselves by focusing intensely on the English part of their identity to the detriment of all others. Notice how British identity in Scotland has waxed and waned with the rise and fall of the British Empire. The English would feel a lot happier, and certainly be a hell of a lot better governed, if they embraced regionalism, localism and Europe. But I'm not English so it's not really my business.
    I'm not sure I understand this. The English don't seem to focus hugely on their Englishness from what I've seen. It's a very old country with a centralised state. Italy and Germany had much more history of regional government. Until recently a lot of England fans would wave the Union Jack rather than St George. Nice that you suggest it was the English not the British who ruled half the world.
    Do we have our first PB Engsh expert?
    I'll take that as sincere. I'm not English so I'm a little reluctant to claim expertise.
    Sorry I wasn't clear - it was a lighthearted jibe at OnlyLivingBoy's post, not yours. Our nat contingent are always critcising our armchair 'Scotch experts', so it was interesting to see some rather pompous opining in the other direction.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,712
    Icarus said:

    Icarus said:

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    If they are not then what indeed is the point in them?
    I dont see why they cant say 'we are working on a comprehensive package and, if i become PM on Sept 5th, will hold an emergency budget to present and vote on these plans before any cap changes take place'
    That she hasn't leads me to suspect they arent.
    I really do think it is beyond belief that they are not working on the proposals as the COE has already said

    I suspect the problem is Truss still is foreign secretary and cannot assume she will become PM and is standing by that position
    Its increasingly probable that they are hopeless, witless goobers.
    Talk now of a £6000 cap. 'Tax cuts' is like saying we need to deal with that wasp before we fight off this T Rex
    If that is all it is then it is over, not only for Truss, but the conservative party
    Deservedly so in those circs
    I absolutely agree but I really do not think even Truss is that idiotic
    When do we expect the emergency budget? Unless things change they only have from 5th -22nd September, with the HoC returning on 17th October.

    The problem is that a quick announcement -before 22nd September will probably produce ill thought out policies. If they take the time - at the end of October - to make sure the policies are watertight then the delay will make them look weak.
    The emergency budget is due on the 21st September

    The HOC returns from the 5th September until the 22nd September before adjourning for the conference season
    Mad. You cannot produce a budget and then not allow MPs, of all parties, time to discuss it.
    I agree. But, reflect that during the pandemic various fundamental civil liberties were withdrawn without allow MPs, of all parties, time to discuss it.
  • MISTY said:

    Carnyx said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    If they are not then what indeed is the point in them?
    I dont see why they cant say 'we are working on a comprehensive package and, if i become PM on Sept 5th, will hold an emergency budget to present and vote on these plans before any cap changes take place'
    That she hasn't leads me to suspect they arent.
    I really do think it is beyond belief that they are not working on the proposals as the COE has already said

    I suspect the problem is Truss still is foreign secretary and cannot assume she will become PM and is standing by that position
    Its increasingly probable that they are hopeless, witless goobers.
    Talk now of a £6000 cap. 'Tax cuts' is like saying we need to deal with that wasp before we fight off this T Rex
    If that is all it is then it is over, not only for Truss, but the conservative party
    The electorate knows why energy prices are high. It knows that its because of gigantic policy mistakes by the coalition, Cameron's government, May's government and Johnson's government.

    Decisions mostly applauded by Labour and criticised only because they did not go far enough.

    People know that you can't aim to phase out hydrocarbons and have cheap hydrocarbons at the same time.
    What would have been the specific policy that you think would have prevented this? The best I can think of from a "more hydrocarbons" angle is subsidizing domestic production so you have capacity even though it would be cheaper to import, and then once in the current situation to ban exports.
    We don;t need an export ban. We just need to make sure the government takes its cut of the gas produced. It always has. Bloomberg reported in May the treasury is making record profits from the stuff we are producing.

    How many billions would selling the Germans gas be netting the treasury right now, if the tories had started fracking in 2017?

    Kerching.
    Very little. UK is not the place for fracking, geologically.

    Edit: anyway the UK does already rely in part on a form of fracking, just offshore where it is actually useful.
    There was a guy on the tory hustings trail who vehemently disagreed with you.

    But then, he was a mining engineer, so what would he know?
    I think fracking has probably stalled for the same reason as North Sea Oil has stalled. 5th column in Government agencies acquiescing with green extremists to bring everything to a standstill.
    The troubles with fracking are, first, no-one wants it near them, and in Britain, unlike America, everywhere is near someone, and, second, fracking is quite expensive which is fine when Uncle Vlad has sent gas prices to the moon but in more peaceful times is uneconomic unless the government underwrites a minimum price.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,376
    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
    Idiotic. Scotland has a great deal to offer England and the world, whether independent or otherwise. Just rather a shame the only way some people can see their way to that is via a traumatic and destructive separation.
  • HYUFD said:

    Some more info from that Panelbase poll.


    Failing Labour in second place. Only two seats but they don’t need Scotland to Govern
    Better let Angie know.

    "Angela Rayner: Scottish independence 'not very nice' and means 'perpetual' Tory rule"

    https://tinyurl.com/2p9xryra
    Blair won 3 general elections in England alone, however we are all better together
    So fix the union so we still have one. Home Rule for England needs to be on the table.
    I suspect that would be the end of the Union. Most likely Germany in the eurozone on steroids.

    The trouble with 'Home Rule' is people never spell out exactly what it means. It refers to Ireland at a time when there was a British Empire and you had self-governing entities in Canada, Australia and New Zealand. What does it mean now? The autonomous communities of Spain seem a more fruitful comparison.

    Personally the only feasible option I see is a deal where any further powers to Holyrood is combined with a reduction in the number of Scottish MPs. Everyone forgets that was a part of the the original settlement post 1997.
    There is a democratic deficit in England. Voters rightly identified this problem, but targeted their ire at Brussels instead of Westminster. They still aren't happy because Brexit hasn't provided the democratic self-determination they wanted.

    We already have federalised institutions (education, church, NHS, some public services), we just need to extend this. And that means an English parliament to match the ones already in Wales, Scotland, NI, the Isle of Man etc.

    England already has separate laws, education, police, services compared to Scotland. So "what it means" will be up to English voters. What England does will be different to what Scotland does - because they want different things.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,145
    edited August 2022
    darkage said:

    kyf_100 said:

    DavidL said:

    To me it is almost certain that the next rise will be another 0.5% but the odds reflect that and are not particularly tempting. More would reek of panic and admissions of past failures to act. Less would be rightly condemned in light of inflation being so out of control.

    I am not impressed by Bailey and the others on the MPC. They have failed at their job and frankly I think that they should pay the penalty. Resignation by the Governor would be an acknowledgement of the Bank's failings.

    When they actually failed though is more difficult. The lag in interest rates is probably 18-2 years now given the preponderance of fixed rate borrowing. It would have been difficult to raise rates 2 years ago when Covid was at its peak and the economy was in recession. The mistakes really came earlier when the emergency rate from the GFC was allowed to persist. At the time it seemed growth was weak but fiscal policy in terms of the deficit was generous and the Bank failed to fix the roof when the sun was shining, as one politician once said. If they had gently built base rates up to 4% or so we would be in a much better place now.

    Yeah, but an interest rate of 4% destroys the housing market, and as long as people felt they were getting richer because the value of their main asset kept increasing, they voted Conservative. That's why they've tried so hard the last decade to prop up house prices. With low interest rates, with help to buy, with the stupid stamp duty holiday -- all of which pushed house prices up to the stratospheric in the interests of people who already owned property at the expense of those just looking for a roof over their head.

    I honestly don't think the economy can ever be fixed as long as policy automatically defaults to whatever keeps house prices high.
    Sorry to trot this one out again but house prices are not artificially inflated.
    If build costs are £2500 per sqm in the south east, then a 100 sqm house costs £250,000 to build - everything else is just the cost of land and developer profit (usually 20%)
    The inflation is being driven by build costs as much as anything else.
    Where we will end up is a situation where private housebuilders don't build anything because it isn't viable to do so, there will be no finance available.

    In wealthy parts of Western Europe you can buy a pre fabricated 100 sqm kit house for 150,000 Euros; and a serviced plot of land for about 60,000 Euros.
    The dysfunctionality in the UK is due to inadequate supply of land and dysfunctional regulation.

    You really think there's nothing in the cost to build a house except for build cost, land cost and developer profit? *

    Sorry, but have you ever actually built a house? Where did you account, for example, for the various planning gain contributions and the CiL, in your theoretical house in the South-East?

    *Headdesk*

    * Unless you have a *very* extended definition of "build cost".
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,356
    Carnyx said:

    TimS said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Wasps. Not seen that many so far this summer. (Famous last words)

    Quite an alarm recently about a nest in a children's playground near here!
    Oh dear. Two summers ago a local tea rooms, with an idyllic garden, was blighted by a nest. It was quite surreal seeing people struggle through afternoon tea. It was a warzone. I’ve seen about four wasps this year.
    We went to a Center Parcs about a month ago where every outside eating place was 'out of bounds', due to wasps!
    Sounds like I’ve been lucky this year, rather than 🐝 suffering due to the heat. Last time I was stung a wasp got under the tongue of my shoe whilst cycling and stung me repeatedly. Had a nasty reaction. I’m not a friend of the wasp ever since.
    Bit late to reply to this, but you’ve been very lucky. 2022 is the year of the wasp, right across Europe.

    https://metro.co.uk/2022/08/07/heatwave-to-make-uks-plague-of-wasps-worst-for-years-17140545/amp/
    How odd. We've had noticeably fewer here in this bit of SE Scotland.
    We were just remarking that we have had significantly fewer in SW Scotland. Our summer weather has been unremarkable, so it can’t be weather related.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779

    Carnyx said:

    TimS said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Wasps. Not seen that many so far this summer. (Famous last words)

    Quite an alarm recently about a nest in a children's playground near here!
    Oh dear. Two summers ago a local tea rooms, with an idyllic garden, was blighted by a nest. It was quite surreal seeing people struggle through afternoon tea. It was a warzone. I’ve seen about four wasps this year.
    We went to a Center Parcs about a month ago where every outside eating place was 'out of bounds', due to wasps!
    Sounds like I’ve been lucky this year, rather than 🐝 suffering due to the heat. Last time I was stung a wasp got under the tongue of my shoe whilst cycling and stung me repeatedly. Had a nasty reaction. I’m not a friend of the wasp ever since.
    Bit late to reply to this, but you’ve been very lucky. 2022 is the year of the wasp, right across Europe.

    https://metro.co.uk/2022/08/07/heatwave-to-make-uks-plague-of-wasps-worst-for-years-17140545/amp/
    How odd. We've had noticeably fewer here in this bit of SE Scotland.
    We were just remarking that we have had significantly fewer in SW Scotland. Our summer weather has been unremarkable, so it can’t be weather related.
    I'm wondering if it is to do with insect populations in general; this has not been a good year in our bee-friendly garden in general. Less food for them in the spring and early summer.
  • MattW said:

    darkage said:

    kyf_100 said:

    DavidL said:

    To me it is almost certain that the next rise will be another 0.5% but the odds reflect that and are not particularly tempting. More would reek of panic and admissions of past failures to act. Less would be rightly condemned in light of inflation being so out of control.

    I am not impressed by Bailey and the others on the MPC. They have failed at their job and frankly I think that they should pay the penalty. Resignation by the Governor would be an acknowledgement of the Bank's failings.

    When they actually failed though is more difficult. The lag in interest rates is probably 18-2 years now given the preponderance of fixed rate borrowing. It would have been difficult to raise rates 2 years ago when Covid was at its peak and the economy was in recession. The mistakes really came earlier when the emergency rate from the GFC was allowed to persist. At the time it seemed growth was weak but fiscal policy in terms of the deficit was generous and the Bank failed to fix the roof when the sun was shining, as one politician once said. If they had gently built base rates up to 4% or so we would be in a much better place now.

    Yeah, but an interest rate of 4% destroys the housing market, and as long as people felt they were getting richer because the value of their main asset kept increasing, they voted Conservative. That's why they've tried so hard the last decade to prop up house prices. With low interest rates, with help to buy, with the stupid stamp duty holiday -- all of which pushed house prices up to the stratospheric in the interests of people who already owned property at the expense of those just looking for a roof over their head.

    I honestly don't think the economy can ever be fixed as long as policy automatically defaults to whatever keeps house prices high.
    Sorry to trot this one out again but house prices are not artificially inflated.
    If build costs are £2500 per sqm in the south east, then a 100 sqm house costs £250,000 to build - everything else is just the cost of land and developer profit (usually 20%)
    The inflation is being driven by build costs as much as anything else.
    Where we will end up is a situation where private housebuilders don't build anything because it isn't viable to do so, there will be no finance available.

    In wealthy parts of Western Europe you can buy a pre fabricated 100 sqm kit house for 150,000 Euros; and a serviced plot of land for about 60,000 Euros.
    The dysfunctionality in the UK is due to inadequate supply of land and dysfunctional regulation.

    You really think there's nothing in the cost to build a house except for build cost, land cost and developer profit? *

    Have you ever actually built a house?

    *Headdesk*

    Unless you have a *very* imaginative definition of "build cost".
    Wasn't there an American comedy where a millionaire businessman goes back to college and interrupts the economics professor to say he's missed out the cost of bribes to the city council, the mob and the unions?
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,356

    Icarus said:

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    If they are not then what indeed is the point in them?
    I dont see why they cant say 'we are working xon a comprehensive package and, if i become PM on Sept 5th, will hold an emergency budget to present and vote on these plans before any cap changes take place'
    That she hasn't leads me to suspect they arent.
    I really do think it is beyond belief that they are not working on the proposals as the COE has already said

    I suspect the problem is Truss still is foreign secretary and cannot assume she will become PM and is standing by that position
    Its increasingly probable that they are hopeless, witless goobers.
    Talk now of a £6000 cap. 'Tax cuts' is like saying we need to deal with that wasp before we fight off this T Rex
    If that is all it is then it is over, not only for Truss, but the conservative party
    Deservedly so in those circs
    I absolutely agree but I really do not think even Truss is that idiotic
    When do we expect the emergency budget? Unless things change they only have from 5th -22nd September, with the HoC returning on 17th October.

    The problem is that a quick announcement -before 22nd September will probably produce ill thought out policies. If they take the time - at the end of October - to make sure the policies are watertight then the delay will make them look weak.
    It will need to be before the price cap hits, so before conferences.
    If they haven’t been planning behind the scenes for an announcement as soon as the new PM is in post, then they deserve to be hammered at the next election. Is assume the Civil Service hasn’t been on holiday throughout the whole of July and August.
  • Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
    Idiotic. Scotland has a great deal to offer England and the world, whether independent or otherwise. Just rather a shame the only way some people can see their way to that is via a traumatic and destructive separation.
    I don't know anyone up here who plans independence where they aren't friends and trading partners with England post-independence. They just don't want HYUFD dragging them around by the hair against their will.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,376

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
    Idiotic. Scotland has a great deal to offer England and the world, whether independent or otherwise. Just rather a shame the only way some people can see their way to that is via a traumatic and destructive separation.
    I don't know anyone up here who plans independence where they aren't friends and trading partners with England post-independence. They just don't want HYUFD dragging them around by the hair against their will.
    Well, you obviously haven't met people widely then, as there are plenty.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779
    edited August 2022

    HYUFD said:

    Some more info from that Panelbase poll.


    Failing Labour in second place. Only two seats but they don’t need Scotland to Govern
    Better let Angie know.

    "Angela Rayner: Scottish independence 'not very nice' and means 'perpetual' Tory rule"

    https://tinyurl.com/2p9xryra
    Blair won 3 general elections in England alone, however we are all better together
    So fix the union so we still have one. Home Rule for England needs to be on the table.
    I suspect that would be the end of the Union. Most likely Germany in the eurozone on steroids.

    The trouble with 'Home Rule' is people never spell out exactly what it means. It refers to Ireland at a time when there was a British Empire and you had self-governing entities in Canada, Australia and New Zealand. What does it mean now? The autonomous communities of Spain seem a more fruitful comparison.

    Personally the only feasible option I see is a deal where any further powers to Holyrood is combined with a reduction in the number of Scottish MPs. Everyone forgets that was a part of the the original settlement post 1997.
    There is a democratic deficit in England. Voters rightly identified this problem, but targeted their ire at Brussels instead of Westminster. They still aren't happy because Brexit hasn't provided the democratic self-determination they wanted.

    We already have federalised institutions (education, church, NHS, some public services), we just need to extend this. And that means an English parliament to match the ones already in Wales, Scotland, NI, the Isle of Man etc.

    England already has separate laws, education, police, services compared to Scotland. So "what it means" will be up to English voters. What England does will be different to what Scotland does - because they want different things.
    BTW re @FRankBooth 's implicaiton that Home Rule was only an Irish thing - the expression was very much alive in Scotland at the same time and for the same reasons, and continued in Scotland as one option for the national future, for instance as a firm policy of Labour and the [edit] Liberals.

    https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/yes--508343876662590555/
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,206

    Just seen this in the Observer:
    "GPs could write prescriptions for money off energy bills for the most vulnerable under a plan drawn up by the Treasury, as Liz Truss’s team signalled more help with costs now forecast to top £6,000 next year.

    The unusual proposal would mean people could consult their doctor for an assessment on whether they are struggling enough to require help with their bills."

    I think describing the proposal as "unusual" is stretching the meaning of the word too far!

    so doctors are now going to spend time assessing peoples finances? FFS get a grip
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
    Idiotic. Scotland has a great deal to offer England and the world, whether independent or otherwise. Just rather a shame the only way some people can see their way to that is via a traumatic and destructive separation.
    I don't know anyone up here who plans independence where they aren't friends and trading partners with England post-independence. They just don't want HYUFD dragging them around by the hair against their will.
    Well, you obviously haven't met people widely then, as there are plenty.
    Indeed, Scottish independence would see English and Scottish relations at their lowest since Flodden Field and inevitably a hard border at Berwick based on the current UK and EU trade deal if Scotland rejoined the EU
  • Icarus said:

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    If they are not then what indeed is the point in them?
    I dont see why they cant say 'we are working xon a comprehensive package and, if i become PM on Sept 5th, will hold an emergency budget to present and vote on these plans before any cap changes take place'
    That she hasn't leads me to suspect they arent.
    I really do think it is beyond belief that they are not working on the proposals as the COE has already said

    I suspect the problem is Truss still is foreign secretary and cannot assume she will become PM and is standing by that position
    Its increasingly probable that they are hopeless, witless goobers.
    Talk now of a £6000 cap. 'Tax cuts' is like saying we need to deal with that wasp before we fight off this T Rex
    If that is all it is then it is over, not only for Truss, but the conservative party
    Deservedly so in those circs
    I absolutely agree but I really do not think even Truss is that idiotic
    When do we expect the emergency budget? Unless things change they only have from 5th -22nd September, with the HoC returning on 17th October.

    The problem is that a quick announcement -before 22nd September will probably produce ill thought out policies. If they take the time - at the end of October - to make sure the policies are watertight then the delay will make them look weak.
    It will need to be before the price cap hits, so before conferences.
    If they haven’t been planning behind the scenes for an announcement as soon as the new PM is in post, then they deserve to be hammered at the next election. Is assume the Civil Service hasn’t been on holiday throughout the whole of July and August.
    Two scenarios:
    1) They are planning behind the scenes. Significant and decisive action to remove the price cap bomb from the political stage. At which point Mistress Truss and her cabinet of BoJo sycophants will be asked "why did she constantly insist in very clear teams she would NOT do this action? Was she lying?"
    2) They aren't planning behind the scenes. She and her team haven't recognised the severity of the problem, or genuinely and delusionally believes that her tax cut proposal will provide the required effect.

    Either way, she is going to suffer an inverse-honeymoon.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,955

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Fishing said:

    Roger said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Brexit has turned England into a turd world country.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/look-bright-side-sea-sewage-27791730

    Morning Stu, it seems it's Sectarian Sunday.

    Publicly owned Scottish Water features in your linked piece. Sturgeon's Shitty Scotland?

    When they were publicly owned, you had no choice but to swim in a boring sea, that was just wet all over. But now you can either carry on in a sea that’s old-fashioned, or you can choose a more interesting one with islands of mucky toilet paper floating through it.

    Katy Taylor, of Scottish Water, reassured us by saying it was up to the public to decide whether it’s safe, hinting we shouldn’t worry because the sea is “95% rainwater”.


    Your man Mark Steel doesn't seem to have noticed that that one *is* publicly owned.
    You need to look up the meaning of 'sectarian'. I don't see Stu wearing a footie scarf while chanting "* the Pope". It detracts from your PBToryexpertise on Scottish
    matters.
    Okay then. It’s “Anglophobic August”. Better?

    The Tory Party seem not to think so*. The Tories actually tried claiming that Scottish criticism of Tory* policies was inherently racist and Anglophobic, but they back-tracked within a very few hours. That was in the months before the referendum of 2014, and I remember that very well - evidently a coordinated message out to all their mouthpieces in the news outlets, then an almost instant reverse ferret.

    *Not sure about today.

    **UKG included LDs at the time, of course.
    The criticism was of Dickson personally. He changed the headline of a piece, critical of water quality in “Britain”, to “England”, despite the article itself clearly referring to water companies on both sides of the border. Scottish Water is publicly owned.

    Scottish Nationalism is not inherently Anglophobic. Stuart Dickson absolutely is.

    Anyone with a brain is anglophobic at the moment. England voted Brexit and voted Tory even with the knowledge Johnson would be Prime Minister. The Scots didn't. Can you blame them for sneering and loathing us for
    the choices we foisted on them?
    Actually 40% or so of Scots did. Why are they never mentioned?
    If 100% of Scots had voted to Remain then
    the U.K. would have Remained.
    That would have been an absolutely hilarious result. Can you imagine the frothing on here?
    Indeed. Nations and nationalities are idiotic arbitrary divisions. I’d abolish them all. Municipalities, and loose, fluid, federations thereof, should be the basic governing unit.

    That is a great idea. I feel a lot more attachment to my neighbourhood and city than I do to the country we are located in. Real local devolution plus a world government to manage global issues would be an interesting setup.
    Or... Lots of layers, local as possible, large scale as necessary?

    One of the odd experiences of going to Europe is seeing multiple flags, representing everything from a town to a continent. Equal in size and status. Somehow, the British (by which, let's be honest, I mean the English) don't cope with that well. Why?
    Because the English used to rule half the world and so a lot of English people who might otherwise feel that they had received a raw deal out of life got to feel good about themselves by focusing intensely on the English part of their identity to the detriment of all others. Notice how British identity in Scotland has waxed and waned with the rise and fall of the British Empire. The English would feel a lot happier, and certainly be a hell of a lot better governed, if they embraced regionalism, localism and Europe. But I'm not English so it's not really my business.
    I'm not sure I understand this. The English don't seem to focus hugely on their Englishness from what I've seen. It's a very old country with a centralised state. Italy and Germany had much more history of regional government. Until recently a lot of England fans would wave the Union Jack rather than St George. Nice that you suggest it was the English not the British who ruled half the world.
    Do we have our first PB Engsh expert?
    I'll take that as sincere. I'm not English so I'm a little reluctant to claim expertise.
    Sorry I wasn't clear - it was a lighthearted jibe at OnlyLivingBoy's post, not yours. Our nat contingent are always critcising our armchair 'Scotch experts', so it was interesting to see some rather pompous opining in the other direction.
    I wouldn't call myself an expert on the English, but as I have two English parents, three English children, an English wife, and have lived in England for the majority of my life, I reckon I probably have at least a passing knowledge of the subject - certainly more than our legion of Scotch experts have of their chosen field of expertise!
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,955

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Fishing said:

    Roger said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Brexit has turned England into a turd world country.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/look-bright-side-sea-sewage-27791730

    Morning Stu, it seems it's Sectarian Sunday.

    Publicly owned Scottish Water features in your linked piece. Sturgeon's Shitty Scotland?

    When they were publicly owned, you had no choice but to swim in a boring sea, that was just wet all over. But now you can either carry on in a sea that’s old-fashioned, or you can choose a more interesting one with islands of mucky toilet paper floating through it.

    Katy Taylor, of Scottish Water, reassured us by saying it was up to the public to decide whether it’s safe, hinting we shouldn’t worry because the sea is “95% rainwater”.


    Your man Mark Steel doesn't seem to have noticed that that one *is* publicly owned.
    You need to look up the meaning of 'sectarian'. I don't see Stu wearing a footie scarf while chanting "* the Pope". It detracts from your PBToryexpertise on Scottish
    matters.
    Okay then. It’s “Anglophobic August”. Better?

    The Tory Party seem not to think so*. The Tories actually tried claiming that Scottish criticism of Tory* policies was inherently racist and Anglophobic, but they back-tracked within a very few hours. That was in the months before the referendum of 2014, and I remember that very well - evidently a coordinated message out to all their mouthpieces in the news outlets, then an almost instant reverse ferret.

    *Not sure about today.

    **UKG included LDs at the time, of course.
    The criticism was of Dickson personally. He changed the headline of a piece, critical of water quality in “Britain”, to “England”, despite the article itself clearly referring to water companies on both sides of the border. Scottish Water is publicly owned.

    Scottish Nationalism is not inherently Anglophobic. Stuart Dickson absolutely is.

    Anyone with a brain is anglophobic at the moment. England voted Brexit and voted Tory even with the knowledge Johnson would be Prime Minister. The Scots didn't. Can you blame them for sneering and loathing us for
    the choices we foisted on them?
    Actually 40% or so of Scots did. Why are they never mentioned?
    If 100% of Scots had voted to Remain then
    the U.K. would have Remained.
    That would have been an absolutely hilarious result. Can you imagine the frothing on here?
    Indeed. Nations and nationalities are idiotic arbitrary divisions. I’d abolish them all. Municipalities, and loose, fluid, federations thereof, should be the basic governing unit.

    That is a great idea. I feel a lot more attachment to my neighbourhood and city than I do to the country we are located in. Real local devolution plus a world government to manage global issues would be an interesting setup.
    Or... Lots of layers, local as possible, large scale as necessary?

    One of the odd experiences of going to Europe is seeing multiple flags, representing everything from a town to a continent. Equal in size and status. Somehow, the British (by which, let's be honest, I mean the English) don't cope with that well. Why?
    Because the English used to rule half the world and so a lot of English people who might otherwise feel that they had received a raw deal out of life got to feel good about themselves by focusing intensely on the English part of their identity to the detriment of all others. Notice how British identity in Scotland has waxed and waned with the rise and fall of the British Empire. The English would feel a lot happier, and certainly be a hell of a lot better governed, if they embraced regionalism, localism and Europe. But I'm not English so it's not really my business.
    I'm not sure I understand this. The English don't seem to focus hugely on their Englishness from what I've seen. It's a very old country with a centralised state. Italy and Germany had much more history of regional government. Until recently a lot of England fans would wave the Union Jack rather than St George. Nice that you suggest it was the English not the British who ruled half the world.
    Do we have our first PB Engsh expert?
    I'll take that as sincere. I'm not English so I'm a little reluctant to claim expertise.
    Sorry I wasn't clear - it was a lighthearted jibe at OnlyLivingBoy's post, not yours. Our nat contingent are always critcising our armchair 'Scotch experts', so it was interesting to see some rather pompous opining in the other direction.
    I wouldn't call myself an expert on the English, but as I have two English parents, three English children, an English wife, and have lived in England for the majority of my life, I reckon I probably have at least a passing knowledge of the subject - certainly more than our legion of Scotch experts have of their chosen field of expertise!
  • Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
    Idiotic. Scotland has a great deal to offer England and the world, whether independent or otherwise. Just rather a shame the only way some people can see their way to that is via a traumatic and destructive separation.
    I don't know anyone up here who plans independence where they aren't friends and trading partners with England post-independence. They just don't want HYUFD dragging them around by the hair against their will.
    Well, you obviously haven't met people widely then, as there are plenty.
    I don't doubt that to be the case. Happily those people are not in power so their opinion won't actually impact the friendly trading partnership which would inevitably follow independence.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,822
    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
    It’s part of the miraculous UK single market guff whereby whatever Scotland produces is so rubbish only England will buy it, and only within the UK.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779

    Icarus said:

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    If they are not then what indeed is the point in them?
    I dont see why they cant say 'we are working xon a comprehensive package and, if i become PM on Sept 5th, will hold an emergency budget to present and vote on these plans before any cap changes take place'
    That she hasn't leads me to suspect they arent.
    I really do think it is beyond belief that they are not working on the proposals as the COE has already said

    I suspect the problem is Truss still is foreign secretary and cannot assume she will become PM and is standing by that position
    Its increasingly probable that they are hopeless, witless goobers.
    Talk now of a £6000 cap. 'Tax cuts' is like saying we need to deal with that wasp before we fight off this T Rex
    If that is all it is then it is over, not only for Truss, but the conservative party
    Deservedly so in those circs
    I absolutely agree but I really do not think even Truss is that idiotic
    When do we expect the emergency budget? Unless things change they only have from 5th -22nd September, with the HoC returning on 17th October.

    The problem is that a quick announcement -before 22nd September will probably produce ill thought out policies. If they take the time - at the end of October - to make sure the policies are watertight then the delay will make them look weak.
    It will need to be before the price cap hits, so before conferences.
    If they haven’t been planning behind the scenes for an announcement as soon as the new PM is in post, then they deserve to be hammered at the next election. Is assume the Civil Service hasn’t been on holiday throughout the whole of July and August.
    Two scenarios:
    1) They are planning behind the scenes. Significant and decisive action to remove the price cap bomb from the political stage. At which point Mistress Truss and her cabinet of BoJo sycophants will be asked "why did she constantly insist in very clear teams she would NOT do this action? Was she lying?"
    2) They aren't planning behind the scenes. She and her team haven't recognised the severity of the problem, or genuinely and delusionally believes that her tax cut proposal will provide the required effect.

    Either way, she is going to suffer an inverse-honeymoon.
    TBF she would be dealing with two electorates who have different responses - and the Tory Party will have been disposed of at least temporarily, especially if Mr Johnson is rendered hors de combat.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,955

    Just seen this in the Observer:
    "GPs could write prescriptions for money off energy bills for the most vulnerable under a plan drawn up by the Treasury, as Liz Truss’s team signalled more help with costs now forecast to top £6,000 next year.

    The unusual proposal would mean people could consult their doctor for an assessment on whether they are struggling enough to require help with their bills."

    I think describing the proposal as "unusual" is stretching the meaning of the word too far!

    They are as mad as a box of frogs.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,279

    Icarus said:

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    If they are not then what indeed is the point in them?
    I dont see why they cant say 'we are working xon a comprehensive package and, if i become PM on Sept 5th, will hold an emergency budget to present and vote on these plans before any cap changes take place'
    That she hasn't leads me to suspect they arent.
    I really do think it is beyond belief that they are not working on the proposals as the COE has already said

    I suspect the problem is Truss still is foreign secretary and cannot assume she will become PM and is standing by that position
    Its increasingly probable that they are hopeless, witless goobers.
    Talk now of a £6000 cap. 'Tax cuts' is like saying we need to deal with that wasp before we fight off this T Rex
    If that is all it is then it is over, not only for Truss, but the conservative party
    Deservedly so in those circs
    I absolutely agree but I really do not think even Truss is that idiotic
    When do we expect the emergency budget? Unless things change they only have from 5th -22nd September, with the HoC returning on 17th October.

    The problem is that a quick announcement -before 22nd September will probably produce ill thought out policies. If they take the time - at the end of October - to make sure the policies are watertight then the delay will make them look weak.
    It will need to be before the price cap hits, so before conferences.
    If they haven’t been planning behind the scenes for an announcement as soon as the new PM is in post, then they deserve to be hammered at the next election. Is assume the Civil Service hasn’t been on holiday throughout the whole of July and August.
    Two scenarios:
    1) They are planning behind the scenes. Significant and decisive action to remove the price cap bomb from the political stage. At which point Mistress Truss and her cabinet of BoJo sycophants will be asked "why did she constantly insist in very clear teams she would NOT do this action? Was she lying?"
    2) They aren't planning behind the scenes. She and her team haven't recognised the severity of the problem, or genuinely and delusionally believes that her tax cut proposal will provide the required effect.

    Either way, she is going to suffer an inverse-honeymoon.
    Given what Leon claims about her bedroom proclivities it is possible that her honeymoon would be regarded by many of us as inverse anyway!
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,258

    Just seen this in the Observer:
    "GPs could write prescriptions for money off energy bills for the most vulnerable under a plan drawn up by the Treasury, as Liz Truss’s team signalled more help with costs now forecast to top £6,000 next year.

    The unusual proposal would mean people could consult their doctor for an assessment on whether they are struggling enough to require help with their bills."

    I think describing the proposal as "unusual" is stretching the meaning of the word too far!

    No potential for fraud here! Also by the time anyone has got an appointment to discuss this with their GP we will be into the spring!
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,356
    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
    To paraphrase Calgacus, they create a desert and call it revenge.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,356
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    TimS said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Wasps. Not seen that many so far this summer. (Famous last words)

    Quite an alarm recently about a nest in a children's playground near here!
    Oh dear. Two summers ago a local tea rooms, with an idyllic garden, was blighted by a nest. It was quite surreal seeing people struggle through afternoon tea. It was a warzone. I’ve seen about four wasps this year.
    We went to a Center Parcs about a month ago where every outside eating place was 'out of bounds', due to wasps!
    Sounds like I’ve been lucky this year, rather than 🐝 suffering due to the heat. Last time I was stung a wasp got under the tongue of my shoe whilst cycling and stung me repeatedly. Had a nasty reaction. I’m not a friend of the wasp ever since.
    Bit late to reply to this, but you’ve been very lucky. 2022 is the year of the wasp, right across Europe.

    https://metro.co.uk/2022/08/07/heatwave-to-make-uks-plague-of-wasps-worst-for-years-17140545/amp/
    How odd. We've had noticeably fewer here in this bit of SE Scotland.
    We were just remarking that we have had significantly fewer in SW Scotland. Our summer weather has been unremarkable, so it can’t be weather related.
    I'm wondering if it is to do with insect populations in general; this has not been a good year in our bee-friendly garden in general. Less food for them in the spring and early summer.
    Possibly. Our spring was particularly wet, cold and sunless.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,764

    Just seen this in the Observer:
    "GPs could write prescriptions for money off energy bills for the most vulnerable under a plan drawn up by the Treasury, as Liz Truss’s team signalled more help with costs now forecast to top £6,000 next year.

    The unusual proposal would mean people could consult their doctor for an assessment on whether they are struggling enough to require help with their bills."

    I think describing the proposal as "unusual" is stretching the meaning of the word too far!

    so doctors are now going to spend time assessing peoples finances? FFS get a grip
    We are in National Spare Room Database territory at this point.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,356

    HYUFD said:

    Some more info from that Panelbase poll.


    Failing Labour in second place. Only two seats but they don’t need Scotland to Govern
    Better let Angie know.

    "Angela Rayner: Scottish independence 'not very nice' and means 'perpetual' Tory rule"

    https://tinyurl.com/2p9xryra
    Blair won 3 general elections in England alone, however we are all better together
    So fix the union so we still have one. Home Rule for England needs to be on the table.
    I suspect that would be the end of the Union. Most likely Germany in the eurozone on steroids.

    The trouble with 'Home Rule' is people never spell out exactly what it means. It refers to Ireland at a time when there was a British Empire and you had self-governing entities in Canada, Australia and New Zealand. What does it mean now? The autonomous communities of Spain seem a more fruitful comparison.

    Personally the only feasible option I see is a deal where any further powers to Holyrood is combined with a reduction in the number of Scottish MPs. Everyone forgets that was a part of the the original settlement post 1997.
    There is a democratic deficit in England. Voters rightly identified this problem, but targeted their ire at Brussels instead of Westminster. They still aren't happy because Brexit hasn't provided the democratic self-determination they wanted.

    We already have federalised institutions (education, church, NHS, some public services), we just need to extend this. And that means an English parliament to match the ones already in Wales, Scotland, NI, the Isle of Man etc.

    England already has separate laws, education, police, services compared to Scotland. So "what it means" will be up to English voters. What England does will be different to what Scotland does - because they want different things.
    Reversing the recent trend towards centralisation, and returning more power and funds to local authorities, would also help.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649

    Icarus said:

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    If they are not then what indeed is the point in them?
    I dont see why they cant say 'we are working xon a comprehensive package and, if i become PM on Sept 5th, will hold an emergency budget to present and vote on these plans before any cap changes take place'
    That she hasn't leads me to suspect they arent.
    I really do think it is beyond belief that they are not working on the proposals as the COE has already said

    I suspect the problem is Truss still is foreign secretary and cannot assume she will become PM and is standing by that position
    Its increasingly probable that they are hopeless, witless goobers.
    Talk now of a £6000 cap. 'Tax cuts' is like saying we need to deal with that wasp before we fight off this T Rex
    If that is all it is then it is over, not only for Truss, but the conservative party
    Deservedly so in those circs
    I absolutely agree but I really do not think even Truss is that idiotic
    When do we expect the emergency budget? Unless things change they only have from 5th -22nd September, with the HoC returning on 17th October.

    The problem is that a quick announcement -before 22nd September will probably produce ill thought out policies. If they take the time - at the end of October - to make sure the policies are watertight then the delay will make them look weak.
    It will need to be before the price cap hits, so before conferences.
    If they haven’t been planning behind the scenes for an announcement as soon as the new PM is in post, then they deserve to be hammered at the next election. Is assume the Civil Service hasn’t been on holiday throughout the whole of July and August.
    Two scenarios:
    1) They are planning behind the scenes. Significant and decisive action to remove the price cap bomb from the political stage. At which point Mistress Truss and her cabinet of BoJo sycophants will be asked "why did she constantly insist in very clear teams she would NOT do this action? Was she lying?"
    2) They aren't planning behind the scenes. She and her team haven't recognised the severity of the problem, or genuinely and delusionally believes that her tax cut proposal will provide the required effect.

    Either way, she is going to suffer an inverse-honeymoon.
    No, the first option will write its own headlines in the popular press, it will be all 'here comes the cavalry'.
    Option 2 and yes, is hamstrung and lost from the outset
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
    It’s part of the miraculous UK single market guff whereby whatever Scotland produces is so rubbish only England will buy it, and only within the UK.
    How we all laughed at Salmond proposing to export renewable energy. Doesn't look quite so ridiculous now.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 3,317
    MattW said:

    darkage said:

    kyf_100 said:

    DavidL said:

    To me it is almost certain that the next rise will be another 0.5% but the odds reflect that and are not particularly tempting. More would reek of panic and admissions of past failures to act. Less would be rightly condemned in light of inflation being so out of control.

    I am not impressed by Bailey and the others on the MPC. They have failed at their job and frankly I think that they should pay the penalty. Resignation by the Governor would be an acknowledgement of the Bank's failings.

    When they actually failed though is more difficult. The lag in interest rates is probably 18-2 years now given the preponderance of fixed rate borrowing. It would have been difficult to raise rates 2 years ago when Covid was at its peak and the economy was in recession. The mistakes really came earlier when the emergency rate from the GFC was allowed to persist. At the time it seemed growth was weak but fiscal policy in terms of the deficit was generous and the Bank failed to fix the roof when the sun was shining, as one politician once said. If they had gently built base rates up to 4% or so we would be in a much better place now.

    Yeah, but an interest rate of 4% destroys the housing market, and as long as people felt they were getting richer because the value of their main asset kept increasing, they voted Conservative. That's why they've tried so hard the last decade to prop up house prices. With low interest rates, with help to buy, with the stupid stamp duty holiday -- all of which pushed house prices up to the stratospheric in the interests of people who already owned property at the expense of those just looking for a roof over their head.

    I honestly don't think the economy can ever be fixed as long as policy automatically defaults to whatever keeps house prices high.
    Sorry to trot this one out again but house prices are not artificially inflated.
    If build costs are £2500 per sqm in the south east, then a 100 sqm house costs £250,000 to build - everything else is just the cost of land and developer profit (usually 20%)
    The inflation is being driven by build costs as much as anything else.
    Where we will end up is a situation where private housebuilders don't build anything because it isn't viable to do so, there will be no finance available.

    In wealthy parts of Western Europe you can buy a pre fabricated 100 sqm kit house for 150,000 Euros; and a serviced plot of land for about 60,000 Euros.
    The dysfunctionality in the UK is due to inadequate supply of land and dysfunctional regulation.

    You really think there's nothing in the cost to build a house except for build cost, land cost and developer profit? *

    Sorry, but have you ever actually built a house? Where did you account, for example, for the various planning gain contributions and the CiL, in your theoretical house in the South-East?

    *Headdesk*

    * Unless you have a *very* extended definition of "build cost".
    Yes, the figure I am quoting is just to build the house. If you expand it to include other unavoidable costs like CIL where it is imposed, and S106 payments, then it increases even further. It adds further weight to my point, which I keep making, that house prices are not particularly high when compared with the cost of building.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147
    edited August 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
    It’s part of the miraculous UK single market guff whereby whatever Scotland produces is so rubbish only England will buy it, and only within the UK.
    How we all laughed at Salmond proposing to export renewable energy. Doesn't look quite so ridiculous now.
    There are also lakes, solar panels, wind farms and offshore wind and nuclear power in England too.

    Scotland also spends more as a percentage of gdp than almost any other nation in the world subsidised in large part by the UK Government. If it was ever allowed indyref2 and voted Yes the UK Treasury would obviously cut that tap off
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,376

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
    Idiotic. Scotland has a great deal to offer England and the world, whether independent or otherwise. Just rather a shame the only way some people can see their way to that is via a traumatic and destructive separation.
    I don't know anyone up here who plans independence where they aren't friends and trading partners with England post-independence. They just don't want HYUFD dragging them around by the hair against their will.
    Well, you obviously haven't met people widely then, as there are plenty.
    I don't doubt that to be the case. Happily those people are not in power so their opinion won't actually impact the friendly trading partnership which would inevitably follow independence.
    I think it would be a rather fraught process, but I don't doubt that both countries would survive.

    It wouldn't be the catharsis some believe it would be though. Politically, I don't really think it's about Westminster having too much influence over Scotland, it's about Scotland not having enough influence over Westminster. Which wouldn't change with indy.

    What is actually called for is, to ascend my soapbox again, a 'Council of the Isles' attended by the leaders of the UK, England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, 5 votes, with a veto on key finance legislation, major foreign policy decisions, and major infrastructure decisions. Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland (or any other combination of 3) could block something it did not like.

    This would recognise Scotland's nationhood and give it equal weight, despite the numerical disparity with England. It would mean Scotland (along with the other home nations) was not being railroaded by the UK. It would be the 21st century UK - an equal community of proud nations.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/aug/20/ai-art-artificial-intelligence-midjourney-dall-e-replacing-artists

    The Atlantic and the Economist already using Dall E lookalike Midjourney to produce cover art

    Fun fact: Dall-E is a joke combination of Wall-E and Dali. Probably everyone realised this anyway.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,376
    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
    It’s part of the miraculous UK single market guff whereby whatever Scotland produces is so rubbish only England will buy it, and only within the UK.
    How we all laughed at Salmond proposing to export renewable energy. Doesn't look quite so ridiculous now.
    There are also lakes, solar panels, wind farms and offshore wind and nuclear power in England too.

    Scotland also spends more as a percentage of gdp than almost any other nation in the world subsidised in large part by the UK Government. If it was ever allowed indyref2 and voted Yes the UK Treasury would obviously cut that tap off
    England is also better served by tidal ranges than Scotland, I believe a knowledge PBer has opined. England would be fine. We don't have to slate each other like this; it's very silly.
  • HYUFD said:

    Some more info from that Panelbase poll.


    Failing Labour in second place. Only two seats but they don’t need Scotland to Govern
    Better let Angie know.

    "Angela Rayner: Scottish independence 'not very nice' and means 'perpetual' Tory rule"

    https://tinyurl.com/2p9xryra
    Blair won 3 general elections in England alone, however we are all better together
    So fix the union so we still have one. Home Rule for England needs to be on the table.
    I suspect that would be the end of the Union. Most likely Germany in the eurozone on steroids.

    The trouble with 'Home Rule' is people never spell out exactly what it means. It refers to Ireland at a time when there was a British Empire and you had self-governing entities in Canada, Australia and New Zealand. What does it mean now? The autonomous communities of Spain seem a more fruitful comparison.

    Personally the only feasible option I see is a deal where any further powers to Holyrood is combined with a reduction in the number of Scottish MPs. Everyone forgets that was a part of the the original settlement post 1997.
    There is a democratic deficit in England. Voters rightly identified this problem, but targeted their ire at Brussels instead of Westminster. They still aren't happy because Brexit hasn't provided the democratic self-determination they wanted.

    We already have federalised institutions (education, church, NHS, some public services), we just need to extend this. And that means an English parliament to match the ones already in Wales, Scotland, NI, the Isle of Man etc.

    England already has separate laws, education, police, services compared to Scotland. So "what it means" will be up to English voters. What England does will be different to what Scotland does - because they want different things.
    I don't disagree with anything you say. I just think that it would never go far enough.

    I mean this on two levels. Within the UK it wouldn't go far enough because there will always be a significant minority who will quite rightly say that their country could be better served by being fully independent. That won't change no matter how much devolution you provide. At the same time there will always be those within the largest country - England - claiming that too much is given to the other countries. I think this is so set now in so many minds that it is too late to change it.

    But secondly I simply don't believe that any government is willing to give up the sorts of power that you and I believe they should down to the subsidiary authorities.

    In an ideal world we would simply start again. Only those powers that cannot be reasonably exercised at the lowest level of government are surrendered up to the next level. Westminster ends up doing a fraction of what it does now and most democratic and decision making authority rests at local and regional level. But I fear that is just a pipe dream.

    Not that we shouldn't keep trying to get to that ideal.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,822
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
    It’s part of the miraculous UK single market guff whereby whatever Scotland produces is so rubbish only England will buy it, and only within the UK.
    How we all laughed at Salmond proposing to export renewable energy. Doesn't look quite so ridiculous now.
    The Saudi Arabia of renewables not such an auspicious comparison, but yes.
  • Carnyx said:

    Icarus said:

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    If they are not then what indeed is the point in them?
    I dont see why they cant say 'we are working xon a comprehensive package and, if i become PM on Sept 5th, will hold an emergency budget to present and vote on these plans before any cap changes take place'
    That she hasn't leads me to suspect they arent.
    I really do think it is beyond belief that they are not working on the proposals as the COE has already said

    I suspect the problem is Truss still is foreign secretary and cannot assume she will become PM and is standing by that position
    Its increasingly probable that they are hopeless, witless goobers.
    Talk now of a £6000 cap. 'Tax cuts' is like saying we need to deal with that wasp before we fight off this T Rex
    If that is all it is then it is over, not only for Truss, but the conservative party
    Deservedly so in those circs
    I absolutely agree but I really do not think even Truss is that idiotic
    When do we expect the emergency budget? Unless things change they only have from 5th -22nd September, with the HoC returning on 17th October.

    The problem is that a quick announcement -before 22nd September will probably produce ill thought out policies. If they take the time - at the end of October - to make sure the policies are watertight then the delay will make them look weak.
    It will need to be before the price cap hits, so before conferences.
    If they haven’t been planning behind the scenes for an announcement as soon as the new PM is in post, then they deserve to be hammered at the next election. Is assume the Civil Service hasn’t been on holiday throughout the whole of July and August.
    Two scenarios:
    1) They are planning behind the scenes. Significant and decisive action to remove the price cap bomb from the political stage. At which point Mistress Truss and her cabinet of BoJo sycophants will be asked "why did she constantly insist in very clear teams she would NOT do this action? Was she lying?"
    2) They aren't planning behind the scenes. She and her team haven't recognised the severity of the problem, or genuinely and delusionally believes that her tax cut proposal will provide the required effect.

    Either way, she is going to suffer an inverse-honeymoon.
    TBF she would be dealing with two electorates who have different responses - and the Tory Party will have been disposed of at least temporarily, especially if Mr Johnson is rendered hors de combat.
    The most optimistic take is that Truss has a Brilliant Plan, but it's one the Conservatives won't like. So get into Number Ten, then backstab. That's brave, but it might work.

    Otherwise, if she has a Brilliant Plan, why not share it? It could help her win if it's that good. So the simplest answer is that she isn't telling us her plan ... Because she doesn't have a plan.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 2,923

    Just seen this in the Observer:
    "GPs could write prescriptions for money off energy bills for the most vulnerable under a plan drawn up by the Treasury, as Liz Truss’s team signalled more help with costs now forecast to top £6,000 next year.

    The unusual proposal would mean people could consult their doctor for an assessment on whether they are struggling enough to require help with their bills."

    I think describing the proposal as "unusual" is stretching the meaning of the word too far!

    No potential for fraud here! Also by the time anyone has got an appointment to discuss this with their GP we will be into the spring!
    Just saying that CABs can provide fuel bank vouchers up to 3 times a year if ona low income and prepayment meter.

    My wife volunteers for CAB and quite a lot of fuel bank and food bank vouchers are being asked for.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
    It’s part of the miraculous UK single market guff whereby whatever Scotland produces is so rubbish only England will buy it, and only within the UK.
    How we all laughed at Salmond proposing to export renewable energy. Doesn't look quite so ridiculous now.
    There are also lakes, solar panels, wind farms and offshore wind and nuclear power in England too.

    Scotland also spends more as a percentage of gdp than almost any other nation in the world subsidised in large part by the UK Government. If it was ever allowed indyref2 and voted Yes the UK Treasury would obviously cut that tap off
    Lakes don't help unless there's a big drop downstream of them.

    Scotland has a lot more wind than most of England and fewer nimbies

    You know the solution to the migrants in the channel problem? There isn't one, or someone would have thought of it. And crossings this year 20,000 which is about double same time last year which was double 2020. There's a huge new wave due to come from Africa as population grows and the planet cooks

    You know what the solution to illegal immigration into Scotland would be? Dead simple. It's a land border, and what is the incentive anyway?

    The future is a dystopianly overcrowded England and Wales crying out for power and water. Captive market.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited August 2022

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
    It’s part of the miraculous UK single market guff whereby whatever Scotland produces is so rubbish only England will buy it, and only within the UK.
    How we all laughed at Salmond proposing to export renewable energy. Doesn't look quite so ridiculous now.
    There are also lakes, solar panels, wind farms and offshore wind and nuclear power in England too.

    Scotland also spends more as a percentage of gdp than almost any other nation in the world subsidised in large part by the UK Government. If it was ever allowed indyref2 and voted Yes the UK Treasury would obviously cut that tap off
    England is also better served by tidal ranges than Scotland, I believe a knowledge PBer has opined. England would be fine. We don't have to slate each other like this; it's very silly.
    There's not a lot in it judging by personal observation. May be more harnessable in more places in one than the other, but the Pentland Firth is up there with Alderney Race for fun tidal experiences.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,376
    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
    It’s part of the miraculous UK single market guff whereby whatever Scotland produces is so rubbish only England will buy it, and only within the UK.
    How we all laughed at Salmond proposing to export renewable energy. Doesn't look quite so ridiculous now.
    There are also lakes, solar panels, wind farms and offshore wind and nuclear power in England too.

    Scotland also spends more as a percentage of gdp than almost any other nation in the world subsidised in large part by the UK Government. If it was ever allowed indyref2 and voted Yes the UK Treasury would obviously cut that tap off
    England is also better served by tidal ranges than Scotland, I believe a knowledge PBer has opined. England would be fine. We don't have to slate each other like this; it's very silly.
    There's not a lot in it judging by personal observation. May be more harnessable in more places in one than the other, but the Pentand Firth is up there with Alderney Race for fun tidal experiences.
    Not me who said it. From recollection it was MarkM, though I don't remember.

    England and Wales have endless options for renewables. We have vast fossil fuel reserves too. And a climate that has you predicting we're likely to be the number one destination for the world's displaced hordes.

    We are 'better together', but we'll all be fine either way.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
    It’s part of the miraculous UK single market guff whereby whatever Scotland produces is so rubbish only England will buy it, and only within the UK.
    How we all laughed at Salmond proposing to export renewable energy. Doesn't look quite so ridiculous now.
    There are also lakes, solar panels, wind farms and offshore wind and nuclear power in England too.

    Scotland also spends more as a percentage of gdp than almost any other nation in the world subsidised in large part by the UK Government. If it was ever allowed indyref2 and voted Yes the UK Treasury would obviously cut that tap off
    England is also better served by tidal ranges than Scotland, I believe a knowledge PBer has opined. England would be fine. We don't have to slate each other like this; it's very silly.
    There's not a lot in it judging by personal observation. May be more harnessable in more places in one than the other, but the Pentand Firth is up there with Alderney Race for fun tidal experiences.
    Not me who said it. From recollection it was MarkM, though I don't remember.

    England and Wales have endless options for renewables. We have vast fossil fuel reserves too. And a climate that has you predicting we're likely to be the number one destination for the world's displaced hordes.

    We are 'better together', but we'll all be fine either way.
    Yes sure, but it is legitimate to keep the situation under review. I am less thrilled than you at being no 1 on the illegal immigrant charts.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,376

    Carnyx said:

    Icarus said:

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    If they are not then what indeed is the point in them?
    I dont see why they cant say 'we are working xon a comprehensive package and, if i become PM on Sept 5th, will hold an emergency budget to present and vote on these plans before any cap changes take place'
    That she hasn't leads me to suspect they arent.
    I really do think it is beyond belief that they are not working on the proposals as the COE has already said

    I suspect the problem is Truss still is foreign secretary and cannot assume she will become PM and is standing by that position
    Its increasingly probable that they are hopeless, witless goobers.
    Talk now of a £6000 cap. 'Tax cuts' is like saying we need to deal with that wasp before we fight off this T Rex
    If that is all it is then it is over, not only for Truss, but the conservative party
    Deservedly so in those circs
    I absolutely agree but I really do not think even Truss is that idiotic
    When do we expect the emergency budget? Unless things change they only have from 5th -22nd September, with the HoC returning on 17th October.

    The problem is that a quick announcement -before 22nd September will probably produce ill thought out policies. If they take the time - at the end of October - to make sure the policies are watertight then the delay will make them look weak.
    It will need to be before the price cap hits, so before conferences.
    If they haven’t been planning behind the scenes for an announcement as soon as the new PM is in post, then they deserve to be hammered at the next election. Is assume the Civil Service hasn’t been on holiday throughout the whole of July and August.
    Two scenarios:
    1) They are planning behind the scenes. Significant and decisive action to remove the price cap bomb from the political stage. At which point Mistress Truss and her cabinet of BoJo sycophants will be asked "why did she constantly insist in very clear teams she would NOT do this action? Was she lying?"
    2) They aren't planning behind the scenes. She and her team haven't recognised the severity of the problem, or genuinely and delusionally believes that her tax cut proposal will provide the required effect.

    Either way, she is going to suffer an inverse-honeymoon.
    TBF she would be dealing with two electorates who have different responses - and the Tory Party will have been disposed of at least temporarily, especially if Mr Johnson is rendered hors de combat.
    The most optimistic take is that Truss has a Brilliant Plan, but it's one the Conservatives won't like. So get into Number Ten, then backstab. That's brave, but it might work.

    Otherwise, if she has a Brilliant Plan, why not share it? It could help her win if it's that good. So the simplest answer is that she isn't telling us her plan ... Because she doesn't have a plan.
    I think it's considerably more logical to surmise that a plan is being worked on but is not fully finished, and that given the fact that she's way out infront, Truss sees little merit in laying her plans out to get pelters from the peanut gallery, and get into a battle with Sunak over who can shower the most public money at the issue. We will just have to wait until she's in post.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,230
    edited August 2022

    Carnyx said:

    Icarus said:

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    If they are not then what indeed is the point in them?
    I dont see why they cant say 'we are working xon a comprehensive package and, if i become PM on Sept 5th, will hold an emergency budget to present and vote on these plans before any cap changes take place'
    That she hasn't leads me to suspect they arent.
    I really do think it is beyond belief that they are not working on the proposals as the COE has already said

    I suspect the problem is Truss still is foreign secretary and cannot assume she will become PM and is standing by that position
    Its increasingly probable that they are hopeless, witless goobers.
    Talk now of a £6000 cap. 'Tax cuts' is like saying we need to deal with that wasp before we fight off this T Rex
    If that is all it is then it is over, not only for Truss, but the conservative party
    Deservedly so in those circs
    I absolutely agree but I really do not think even Truss is that idiotic
    When do we expect the emergency budget? Unless things change they only have from 5th -22nd September, with the HoC returning on 17th October.

    The problem is that a quick announcement -before 22nd September will probably produce ill thought out policies. If they take the time - at the end of October - to make sure the policies are watertight then the delay will make them look weak.
    It will need to be before the price cap hits, so before conferences.
    If they haven’t been planning behind the scenes for an announcement as soon as the new PM is in post, then they deserve to be hammered at the next election. Is assume the Civil Service hasn’t been on holiday throughout the whole of July and August.
    Two scenarios:
    1) They are planning behind the scenes. Significant and decisive action to remove the price cap bomb from the political stage. At which point Mistress Truss and her cabinet of BoJo sycophants will be asked "why did she constantly insist in very clear teams she would NOT do this action? Was she lying?"
    2) They aren't planning behind the scenes. She and her team haven't recognised the severity of the problem, or genuinely and delusionally believes that her tax cut proposal will provide the required effect.

    Either way, she is going to suffer an inverse-honeymoon.
    TBF she would be dealing with two electorates who have different responses - and the Tory Party will have been disposed of at least temporarily, especially if Mr Johnson is rendered hors de combat.
    The most optimistic take is that Truss has a Brilliant Plan, but it's one the Conservatives won't like. So get into Number Ten, then backstab. That's brave, but it might work.

    Otherwise, if she has a Brilliant Plan, why not share it? It could help her win if it's that good. So the simplest answer is that she isn't telling us her plan ... Because she doesn't have a plan.
    If it's Kwarteng as CofE, Redwood as Chief Sec, and JRM for levelling up or Trade, then there is a more obvious possibility.
    That she has a plan the Tories will love. But nobody else will.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 8,308

    Carnyx said:

    Icarus said:

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    If they are not then what indeed is the point in them?
    I dont see why they cant say 'we are working xon a comprehensive package and, if i become PM on Sept 5th, will hold an emergency budget to present and vote on these plans before any cap changes take place'
    That she hasn't leads me to suspect they arent.
    I really do think it is beyond belief that they are not working on the proposals as the COE has already said

    I suspect the problem is Truss still is foreign secretary and cannot assume she will become PM and is standing by that position
    Its increasingly probable that they are hopeless, witless goobers.
    Talk now of a £6000 cap. 'Tax cuts' is like saying we need to deal with that wasp before we fight off this T Rex
    If that is all it is then it is over, not only for Truss, but the conservative party
    Deservedly so in those circs
    I absolutely agree but I really do not think even Truss is that idiotic
    When do we expect the emergency budget? Unless things change they only have from 5th -22nd September, with the HoC returning on 17th October.

    The problem is that a quick announcement -before 22nd September will probably produce ill thought out policies. If they take the time - at the end of October - to make sure the policies are watertight then the delay will make them look weak.
    It will need to be before the price cap hits, so before conferences.
    If they haven’t been planning behind the scenes for an announcement as soon as the new PM is in post, then they deserve to be hammered at the next election. Is assume the Civil Service hasn’t been on holiday throughout the whole of July and August.
    Two scenarios:
    1) They are planning behind the scenes. Significant and decisive action to remove the price cap bomb from the political stage. At which point Mistress Truss and her cabinet of BoJo sycophants will be asked "why did she constantly insist in very clear teams she would NOT do this action? Was she lying?"
    2) They aren't planning behind the scenes. She and her team haven't recognised the severity of the problem, or genuinely and delusionally believes that her tax cut proposal will provide the required effect.

    Either way, she is going to suffer an inverse-honeymoon.
    TBF she would be dealing with two electorates who have different responses - and the Tory Party will have been disposed of at least temporarily, especially if Mr Johnson is rendered hors de combat.
    The most optimistic take is that Truss has a Brilliant Plan, but it's one the Conservatives won't like. So get into Number Ten, then backstab. That's brave, but it might work.

    Otherwise, if she has a Brilliant Plan, why not share it? It could help her win if it's that good. So the simplest answer is that she isn't telling us her plan ... Because she doesn't have a plan.
    I think it's considerably more logical to surmise that a plan is being worked on but is not fully finished, and that given the fact that she's way out infront, Truss sees little merit in laying her plans out to get pelters from the peanut gallery, and get into a battle with Sunak over who can shower the most public money at the issue. We will just have to wait until she's in post.
    What is it about Liz that makes you such a fan? (Surely even the most generously minded can't point to much in way of previous achievements.)
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 576

    Carnyx said:

    Icarus said:

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    If they are not then what indeed is the point in them?
    I dont see why they cant say 'we are working xon a comprehensive package and, if i become PM on Sept 5th, will hold an emergency budget to present and vote on these plans before any cap changes take place'
    That she hasn't leads me to suspect they arent.
    I really do think it is beyond belief that they are not working on the proposals as the COE has already said

    I suspect the problem is Truss still is foreign secretary and cannot assume she will become PM and is standing by that position
    Its increasingly probable that they are hopeless, witless goobers.
    Talk now of a £6000 cap. 'Tax cuts' is like saying we need to deal with that wasp before we fight off this T Rex
    If that is all it is then it is over, not only for Truss, but the conservative party
    Deservedly so in those circs
    I absolutely agree but I really do not think even Truss is that idiotic
    When do we expect the emergency budget? Unless things change they only have from 5th -22nd September, with the HoC returning on 17th October.

    The problem is that a quick announcement -before 22nd September will probably produce ill thought out policies. If they take the time - at the end of October - to make sure the policies are watertight then the delay will make them look weak.
    It will need to be before the price cap hits, so before conferences.
    If they haven’t been planning behind the scenes for an announcement as soon as the new PM is in post, then they deserve to be hammered at the next election. Is assume the Civil Service hasn’t been on holiday throughout the whole of July and August.
    Two scenarios:
    1) They are planning behind the scenes. Significant and decisive action to remove the price cap bomb from the political stage. At which point Mistress Truss and her cabinet of BoJo sycophants will be asked "why did she constantly insist in very clear teams she would NOT do this action? Was she lying?"
    2) They aren't planning behind the scenes. She and her team haven't recognised the severity of the problem, or genuinely and delusionally believes that her tax cut proposal will provide the required effect.

    Either way, she is going to suffer an inverse-honeymoon.
    TBF she would be dealing with two electorates who have different responses - and the Tory Party will have been disposed of at least temporarily, especially if Mr Johnson is rendered hors de combat.
    The most optimistic take is that Truss has a Brilliant Plan, but it's one the Conservatives won't like. So get into Number Ten, then backstab. That's brave, but it might work.

    Otherwise, if she has a Brilliant Plan, why not share it? It could help her win if it's that good. So the simplest answer is that she isn't telling us her plan ... Because she doesn't have a plan.
    I think it's considerably more logical to surmise that a plan is being worked on but is not fully finished, and that given the fact that she's way out infront, Truss sees little merit in laying her plans out to get pelters from the peanut gallery, and get into a battle with Sunak over who can shower the most public money at the issue. We will just have to wait until she's in post.
    Meanwhile the Country is barrelling down the tracks into the Fuel/Cost of Living Crisis while the Tory Party engage in a self-indulgent argument over who gets to drive the train and they refuse to take any action until that's decided.

    Maybe Truss's strategy, assuming she has a plan etc, is good politics for the moment but it is not good Governance.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 3,221
    dixiedean said:

    Carnyx said:

    Icarus said:

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    If they are not then what indeed is the point in them?
    I dont see why they cant say 'we are working xon a comprehensive package and, if i become PM on Sept 5th, will hold an emergency budget to present and vote on these plans before any cap changes take place'
    That she hasn't leads me to suspect they arent.
    I really do think it is beyond belief that they are not working on the proposals as the COE has already said

    I suspect the problem is Truss still is foreign secretary and cannot assume she will become PM and is standing by that position
    Its increasingly probable that they are hopeless, witless goobers.
    Talk now of a £6000 cap. 'Tax cuts' is like saying we need to deal with that wasp before we fight off this T Rex
    If that is all it is then it is over, not only for Truss, but the conservative party
    Deservedly so in those circs
    I absolutely agree but I really do not think even Truss is that idiotic
    When do we expect the emergency budget? Unless things change they only have from 5th -22nd September, with the HoC returning on 17th October.

    The problem is that a quick announcement -before 22nd September will probably produce ill thought out policies. If they take the time - at the end of October - to make sure the policies are watertight then the delay will make them look weak.
    It will need to be before the price cap hits, so before conferences.
    If they haven’t been planning behind the scenes for an announcement as soon as the new PM is in post, then they deserve to be hammered at the next election. Is assume the Civil Service hasn’t been on holiday throughout the whole of July and August.
    Two scenarios:
    1) They are planning behind the scenes. Significant and decisive action to remove the price cap bomb from the political stage. At which point Mistress Truss and her cabinet of BoJo sycophants will be asked "why did she constantly insist in very clear teams she would NOT do this action? Was she lying?"
    2) They aren't planning behind the scenes. She and her team haven't recognised the severity of the problem, or genuinely and delusionally believes that her tax cut proposal will provide the required effect.

    Either way, she is going to suffer an inverse-honeymoon.
    TBF she would be dealing with two electorates who have different responses - and the Tory Party will have been disposed of at least temporarily, especially if Mr Johnson is rendered hors de combat.
    The most optimistic take is that Truss has a Brilliant Plan, but it's one the Conservatives won't like. So get into Number Ten, then backstab. That's brave, but it might work.

    Otherwise, if she has a Brilliant Plan, why not share it? It could help her win if it's that good. So the simplest answer is that she isn't telling us her plan ... Because she doesn't have a plan.
    If it's Kwarteng as CofE, Redwood as Chief Sec, and JRM for levelling up or Trade, then there is a more obvious possibility.
    That she has a plan the Tories will love. But nobody else will.
    Tax cuts that leave you better off the richer you already are are one half of the equation. I suspect that the other half is some plan along the lines that the energy companies have proposed, to keep the cap down for now and spread the agony of price rises over a longer period of time.

    Two details need to be ironed out: the Government will want to ensure that the energy companies make just as much profit in the long run as they would've done if no action had been taken; and they'll want to ensure that the right people (i.e. people who don't vote Tory) are taxed and/or stripped of benefits and services to cover the costs of action. Once that's done then I expect we'll get a price cap freeze to forestall mass deaths and rioting over the Winter.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 8,308
    dixiedean said:

    Carnyx said:

    Icarus said:

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    If they are not then what indeed is the point in them?
    I dont see why they cant say 'we are working xon a comprehensive package and, if i become PM on Sept 5th, will hold an emergency budget to present and vote on these plans before any cap changes take place'
    That she hasn't leads me to suspect they arent.
    I really do think it is beyond belief that they are not working on the proposals as the COE has already said

    I suspect the problem is Truss still is foreign secretary and cannot assume she will become PM and is standing by that position
    Its increasingly probable that they are hopeless, witless goobers.
    Talk now of a £6000 cap. 'Tax cuts' is like saying we need to deal with that wasp before we fight off this T Rex
    If that is all it is then it is over, not only for Truss, but the conservative party
    Deservedly so in those circs
    I absolutely agree but I really do not think even Truss is that idiotic
    When do we expect the emergency budget? Unless things change they only have from 5th -22nd September, with the HoC returning on 17th October.

    The problem is that a quick announcement -before 22nd September will probably produce ill thought out policies. If they take the time - at the end of October - to make sure the policies are watertight then the delay will make them look weak.
    It will need to be before the price cap hits, so before conferences.
    If they haven’t been planning behind the scenes for an announcement as soon as the new PM is in post, then they deserve to be hammered at the next election. Is assume the Civil Service hasn’t been on holiday throughout the whole of July and August.
    Two scenarios:
    1) They are planning behind the scenes. Significant and decisive action to remove the price cap bomb from the political stage. At which point Mistress Truss and her cabinet of BoJo sycophants will be asked "why did she constantly insist in very clear teams she would NOT do this action? Was she lying?"
    2) They aren't planning behind the scenes. She and her team haven't recognised the severity of the problem, or genuinely and delusionally believes that her tax cut proposal will provide the required effect.

    Either way, she is going to suffer an inverse-honeymoon.
    TBF she would be dealing with two electorates who have different responses - and the Tory Party will have been disposed of at least temporarily, especially if Mr Johnson is rendered hors de combat.
    The most optimistic take is that Truss has a Brilliant Plan, but it's one the Conservatives won't like. So get into Number Ten, then backstab. That's brave, but it might work.

    Otherwise, if she has a Brilliant Plan, why not share it? It could help her win if it's that good. So the simplest answer is that she isn't telling us her plan ... Because she doesn't have a plan.
    If it's Kwarteng as CofE, Redwood as Chief Sec, and JRM for levelling up or Trade, then there is a more obvious possibility.
    That she has a plan the Tories will love. But nobody else will.
    Yes, I get the horrible feeling that 'lazy Brits have had it easy, time to toughen them up' is all that passes for political insight within Truss's brain.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 4,197
    edited August 2022
    If Truss governs anything like how the Tories have governed in recent years, then she will get into office and she’ll either freeze the price cap til the spring or at least limit the rise. Say one thing, do another.

    You are never more powerful than in your first few weeks as PM. She has the capital to do it. Some Tories will clutch at their pearls and claim she deceived them. I suspect she will rather take that than a winter of negative headlines on energy prices. All IMHO.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,258

    Just seen this in the Observer:
    "GPs could write prescriptions for money off energy bills for the most vulnerable under a plan drawn up by the Treasury, as Liz Truss’s team signalled more help with costs now forecast to top £6,000 next year.

    The unusual proposal would mean people could consult their doctor for an assessment on whether they are struggling enough to require help with their bills."

    I think describing the proposal as "unusual" is stretching the meaning of the word too far!

    No potential for fraud here! Also by the time anyone has got an appointment to discuss this with their GP we will be into the spring!
    Just saying that CABs can provide fuel bank vouchers up to 3 times a year if ona low income and prepayment meter.

    My wife volunteers for CAB and quite a lot of fuel bank and food bank vouchers are being asked for.
    Can the food banks get enough food and cover their increased energy costs this winter?
  • It is interesting to see people who said Labour should reveal their plans now saying Truss should wait.
  • Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
    Idiotic. Scotland has a great deal to offer England and the world, whether independent or otherwise. Just rather a shame the only way some people can see their way to that is via a traumatic and destructive separation.
    I don't know anyone up here who plans independence where they aren't friends and trading partners with England post-independence. They just don't want HYUFD dragging them around by the hair against their will.
    Well, you obviously haven't met people widely then, as there are plenty.
    I don't doubt that to be the case. Happily those people are not in power so their opinion won't actually impact the friendly trading partnership which would inevitably follow independence.
    I think it would be a rather fraught process, but I don't doubt that both countries would survive.

    It wouldn't be the catharsis some believe it would be though. Politically, I don't really think it's about Westminster having too much influence over Scotland, it's about Scotland not having enough influence over Westminster. Which wouldn't change with indy.

    What is actually called for is, to ascend my soapbox again, a 'Council of the Isles' attended by the leaders of the UK, England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, 5 votes, with a veto on key finance legislation, major foreign policy decisions, and major infrastructure decisions. Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland (or any other combination of 3) could block something it did not like.

    This would recognise Scotland's nationhood and give it equal weight, despite the numerical disparity with England. It would mean Scotland (along with the other home nations) was not being railroaded by the UK. It would be the 21st century UK - an equal community of proud nations.
    Absolutely - also known as the UK parliament once Home Rule is fully enacted and England has a parliament like the other nations.

    Go even further and have the Isle of Man, Guernsey and Jersey represented. As this top level parliament / council will do the things that involve them - finance, foreign policy, security, coordination - it seems unfair at the moment that they have no input.
  • Unpopular said:

    Carnyx said:

    Icarus said:

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    If they are not then what indeed is the point in them?
    I dont see why they cant say 'we are working xon a comprehensive package and, if i become PM on Sept 5th, will hold an emergency budget to present and vote on these plans before any cap changes take place'
    That she hasn't leads me to suspect they arent.
    I really do think it is beyond belief that they are not working on the proposals as the COE has already said

    I suspect the problem is Truss still is foreign secretary and cannot assume she will become PM and is standing by that position
    Its increasingly probable that they are hopeless, witless goobers.
    Talk now of a £6000 cap. 'Tax cuts' is like saying we need to deal with that wasp before we fight off this T Rex
    If that is all it is then it is over, not only for Truss, but the conservative party
    Deservedly so in those circs
    I absolutely agree but I really do not think even Truss is that idiotic
    When do we expect the emergency budget? Unless things change they only have from 5th -22nd September, with the HoC returning on 17th October.

    The problem is that a quick announcement -before 22nd September will probably produce ill thought out policies. If they take the time - at the end of October - to make sure the policies are watertight then the delay will make them look weak.
    It will need to be before the price cap hits, so before conferences.
    If they haven’t been planning behind the scenes for an announcement as soon as the new PM is in post, then they deserve to be hammered at the next election. Is assume the Civil Service hasn’t been on holiday throughout the whole of July and August.
    Two scenarios:
    1) They are planning behind the scenes. Significant and decisive action to remove the price cap bomb from the political stage. At which point Mistress Truss and her cabinet of BoJo sycophants will be asked "why did she constantly insist in very clear teams she would NOT do this action? Was she lying?"
    2) They aren't planning behind the scenes. She and her team haven't recognised the severity of the problem, or genuinely and delusionally believes that her tax cut proposal will provide the required effect.

    Either way, she is going to suffer an inverse-honeymoon.
    TBF she would be dealing with two electorates who have different responses - and the Tory Party will have been disposed of at least temporarily, especially if Mr Johnson is rendered hors de combat.
    The most optimistic take is that Truss has a Brilliant Plan, but it's one the Conservatives won't like. So get into Number Ten, then backstab. That's brave, but it might work.

    Otherwise, if she has a Brilliant Plan, why not share it? It could help her win if it's that good. So the simplest answer is that she isn't telling us her plan ... Because she doesn't have a plan.
    I think it's considerably more logical to surmise that a plan is being worked on but is not fully finished, and that given the fact that she's way out infront, Truss sees little merit in laying her plans out to get pelters from the peanut gallery, and get into a battle with Sunak over who can shower the most public money at the issue. We will just have to wait until she's in post.
    Meanwhile the Country is barrelling down the tracks into the Fuel/Cost of Living Crisis while the Tory Party engage in a self-indulgent argument over who gets to drive the train and they refuse to take any action until that's decided.

    Maybe Truss's strategy, assuming she has a plan etc, is good politics for the moment but it is not good Governance.
    Despite what Truss's fanboys say, there is no reason to suppose the lady has a plan given that until a few days ago she explicitly ruled out "handouts". Now, stung by Rishi's accusation of moral failure or the opinion polls showing Keir Starmer's plan will see him into Downing Street, or even the industry's own plan, it is entirely plausible that Liz Truss now wants a plan but it stretches credulity to imagine she always had one but is keeping it secret.
  • HYUFD said:

    Some more info from that Panelbase poll.


    Failing Labour in second place. Only two seats but they don’t need Scotland to Govern
    Better let Angie know.

    "Angela Rayner: Scottish independence 'not very nice' and means 'perpetual' Tory rule"

    https://tinyurl.com/2p9xryra
    Blair won 3 general elections in England alone, however we are all better together
    So fix the union so we still have one. Home Rule for England needs to be on the table.
    I suspect that would be the end of the Union. Most likely Germany in the eurozone on steroids.

    The trouble with 'Home Rule' is people never spell out exactly what it means. It refers to Ireland at a time when there was a British Empire and you had self-governing entities in Canada, Australia and New Zealand. What does it mean now? The autonomous communities of Spain seem a more fruitful comparison.

    Personally the only feasible option I see is a deal where any further powers to Holyrood is combined with a reduction in the number of Scottish MPs. Everyone forgets that was a part of the the original settlement post 1997.
    There is a democratic deficit in England. Voters rightly identified this problem, but targeted their ire at Brussels instead of Westminster. They still aren't happy because Brexit hasn't provided the democratic self-determination they wanted.

    We already have federalised institutions (education, church, NHS, some public services), we just need to extend this. And that means an English parliament to match the ones already in Wales, Scotland, NI, the Isle of Man etc.

    England already has separate laws, education, police, services compared to Scotland. So "what it means" will be up to English voters. What England does will be different to what Scotland does - because they want different things.
    I don't disagree with anything you say. I just think that it would never go far enough.

    I mean this on two levels. Within the UK it wouldn't go far enough because there will always be a significant minority who will quite rightly say that their country could be better served by being fully independent. That won't change no matter how much devolution you provide. At the same time there will always be those within the largest country - England - claiming that too much is given to the other countries. I think this is so set now in so many minds that it is too late to change it.

    But secondly I simply don't believe that any government is willing to give up the sorts of power that you and I believe they should down to the subsidiary authorities.

    In an ideal world we would simply start again. Only those powers that cannot be reasonably exercised at the lowest level of government are surrendered up to the next level. Westminster ends up doing a fraction of what it does now and most democratic and decision making authority rests at local and regional level. But I fear that is just a pipe dream.

    Not that we shouldn't keep trying to get to that ideal.
    I agree that it's all unlikely. I remain hopeful that events will force their hand. Without significant reform the UK will fall apart. In this generation. So either we create a looser devo-max / home rule for all arrangement, or Scotland and likely NornIron will do their own thing anyway.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
    It’s part of the miraculous UK single market guff whereby whatever Scotland produces is so rubbish only England will buy it, and only within the UK.
    How we all laughed at Salmond proposing to export renewable energy. Doesn't look quite so ridiculous now.
    There are also lakes, solar panels, wind farms and offshore wind and nuclear power in England too.

    Scotland also spends more as a percentage of gdp than almost any other nation in the world subsidised in large part by the UK Government. If it was ever allowed indyref2 and voted Yes the UK Treasury would obviously cut that tap off
    Lakes don't help unless there's a big drop downstream of them.

    Scotland has a lot more wind than most of England and fewer nimbies

    You know the solution to the migrants in the channel problem? There isn't one, or someone would have thought of it. And crossings this year 20,000 which is about double same time last year which was double 2020. There's a huge new wave due to come from Africa as population grows and the planet cooks

    You know what the solution to illegal immigration into Scotland would be? Dead simple. It's a land border, and what is the incentive anyway?

    The future is a dystopianly overcrowded England and Wales crying out for power and water. Captive market.
    "We're going to build a big, beautiful wall. And Scotland is going to pay for it"
  • boulayboulay Posts: 1,883

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
    Idiotic. Scotland has a great deal to offer England and the world, whether independent or otherwise. Just rather a shame the only way some people can see their way to that is via a traumatic and destructive separation.
    I don't know anyone up here who plans independence where they aren't friends and trading partners with England post-independence. They just don't want HYUFD dragging them around by the hair against their will.
    Well, you obviously haven't met people widely then, as there are plenty.
    I don't doubt that to be the case. Happily those people are not in power so their opinion won't actually impact the friendly trading partnership which would inevitably follow independence.
    I think it would be a rather fraught process, but I don't doubt that both countries would survive.

    It wouldn't be the catharsis some believe it would be though. Politically, I don't really think it's about Westminster having too much influence over Scotland, it's about Scotland not having enough influence over Westminster. Which wouldn't change with indy.

    What is actually called for is, to ascend my soapbox again, a 'Council of the Isles' attended by the leaders of the UK, England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, 5 votes, with a veto on key finance legislation, major foreign policy decisions, and major infrastructure decisions. Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland (or any other combination of 3) could block something it did not like.

    This would recognise Scotland's nationhood and give it equal weight, despite the numerical disparity with England. It would mean Scotland (along with the other home nations) was not being railroaded by the UK. It would be the 21st century UK - an equal community of proud nations.
    Absolutely - also known as the UK parliament once Home Rule is fully enacted and England has a parliament like the other
    nations.

    Go even further and have the Isle of Man,
    Guernsey and Jersey represented. As this top level parliament / council will do the
    things that involve them - finance, foreign policy, security, coordination - it seems
    unfair at the moment that they have no input.

    So effectively supercharge this

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British–Irish_Council


  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 43,306
    I hope you've all set up your direct debits to Jolyon Maugham to save the UK from fascism.

    image
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,393

    Just seen this in the Observer:
    "GPs could write prescriptions for money off energy bills for the most vulnerable under a plan drawn up by the Treasury, as Liz Truss’s team signalled more help with costs now forecast to top £6,000 next year.

    The unusual proposal would mean people could consult their doctor for an assessment on whether they are struggling enough to require help with their bills."

    I think describing the proposal as "unusual" is stretching the meaning of the word too far!

    They are as mad as a box of frogs.
    How does a GP work out whether someone's economically vulnerable? A bit awkward to ask to look at someone's bank account.
  • Unpopular said:

    Carnyx said:

    Icarus said:

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    If they are not then what indeed is the point in them?
    I dont see why they cant say 'we are working xon a comprehensive package and, if i become PM on Sept 5th, will hold an emergency budget to present and vote on these plans before any cap changes take place'
    That she hasn't leads me to suspect they arent.
    I really do think it is beyond belief that they are not working on the proposals as the COE has already said

    I suspect the problem is Truss still is foreign secretary and cannot assume she will become PM and is standing by that position
    Its increasingly probable that they are hopeless, witless goobers.
    Talk now of a £6000 cap. 'Tax cuts' is like saying we need to deal with that wasp before we fight off this T Rex
    If that is all it is then it is over, not only for Truss, but the conservative party
    Deservedly so in those circs
    I absolutely agree but I really do not think even Truss is that idiotic
    When do we expect the emergency budget? Unless things change they only have from 5th -22nd September, with the HoC returning on 17th October.

    The problem is that a quick announcement -before 22nd September will probably produce ill thought out policies. If they take the time - at the end of October - to make sure the policies are watertight then the delay will make them look weak.
    It will need to be before the price cap hits, so before conferences.
    If they haven’t been planning behind the scenes for an announcement as soon as the new PM is in post, then they deserve to be hammered at the next election. Is assume the Civil Service hasn’t been on holiday throughout the whole of July and August.
    Two scenarios:
    1) They are planning behind the scenes. Significant and decisive action to remove the price cap bomb from the political stage. At which point Mistress Truss and her cabinet of BoJo sycophants will be asked "why did she constantly insist in very clear teams she would NOT do this action? Was she lying?"
    2) They aren't planning behind the scenes. She and her team haven't recognised the severity of the problem, or genuinely and delusionally believes that her tax cut proposal will provide the required effect.

    Either way, she is going to suffer an inverse-honeymoon.
    TBF she would be dealing with two electorates who have different responses - and the Tory Party will have been disposed of at least temporarily, especially if Mr Johnson is rendered hors de combat.
    The most optimistic take is that Truss has a Brilliant Plan, but it's one the Conservatives won't like. So get into Number Ten, then backstab. That's brave, but it might work.

    Otherwise, if she has a Brilliant Plan, why not share it? It could help her win if it's that good. So the simplest answer is that she isn't telling us her plan ... Because she doesn't have a plan.
    I think it's considerably more logical to surmise that a plan is being worked on but is not fully finished, and that given the fact that she's way out infront, Truss sees little merit in laying her plans out to get pelters from the peanut gallery, and get into a battle with Sunak over who can shower the most public money at the issue. We will just have to wait until she's in post.
    Meanwhile the Country is barrelling down the tracks into the Fuel/Cost of Living Crisis while the Tory Party engage in a self-indulgent argument over who gets to drive the train and they refuse to take any action until that's decided.

    Maybe Truss's strategy, assuming she has a plan etc, is good politics for the moment but it is not good Governance.
    If Truss's approach to life is really to keep things under her hat until it's all worked out, she shouldn't be in politics. Plenty of fields of achievement open to her, just not this one.

    Fortunately for Truss's ambitions, there's a fair bit of evidence that she makes proposals without working out all the details.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147
    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
    It’s part of the miraculous UK single market guff whereby whatever Scotland produces is so rubbish only England will buy it, and only within the UK.
    How we all laughed at Salmond proposing to export renewable energy. Doesn't look quite so ridiculous now.
    There are also lakes, solar panels, wind farms and offshore wind and nuclear power in England too.

    Scotland also spends more as a percentage of gdp than almost any other nation in the world subsidised in large part by the UK Government. If it was ever allowed indyref2 and voted Yes the UK Treasury would obviously cut that tap off
    Lakes don't help unless there's a big drop downstream of them.

    Scotland has a lot more wind than most of England and fewer nimbies

    You know the solution to the migrants in the channel problem? There isn't one, or someone would have thought of it. And crossings this year 20,000 which is about double same time last year which was double 2020. There's a huge new wave due to come from Africa as population grows and the planet cooks

    You know what the solution to illegal immigration into Scotland would be? Dead simple. It's a land border, and what is the incentive anyway?

    The future is a dystopianly overcrowded England and Wales crying out for power and water. Captive market.
    Most English power and water comes from England or outside Scotland. Scotland's huge deficit however is funded by the UK Treasury
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,376

    Carnyx said:

    Icarus said:

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    If they are not then what indeed is the point in them?
    I dont see why they cant say 'we are working xon a comprehensive package and, if i become PM on Sept 5th, will hold an emergency budget to present and vote on these plans before any cap changes take place'
    That she hasn't leads me to suspect they arent.
    I really do think it is beyond belief that they are not working on the proposals as the COE has already said

    I suspect the problem is Truss still is foreign secretary and cannot assume she will become PM and is standing by that position
    Its increasingly probable that they are hopeless, witless goobers.
    Talk now of a £6000 cap. 'Tax cuts' is like saying we need to deal with that wasp before we fight off this T Rex
    If that is all it is then it is over, not only for Truss, but the conservative party
    Deservedly so in those circs
    I absolutely agree but I really do not think even Truss is that idiotic
    When do we expect the emergency budget? Unless things change they only have from 5th -22nd September, with the HoC returning on 17th October.

    The problem is that a quick announcement -before 22nd September will probably produce ill thought out policies. If they take the time - at the end of October - to make sure the policies are watertight then the delay will make them look weak.
    It will need to be before the price cap hits, so before conferences.
    If they haven’t been planning behind the scenes for an announcement as soon as the new PM is in post, then they deserve to be hammered at the next election. Is assume the Civil Service hasn’t been on holiday throughout the whole of July and August.
    Two scenarios:
    1) They are planning behind the scenes. Significant and decisive action to remove the price cap bomb from the political stage. At which point Mistress Truss and her cabinet of BoJo sycophants will be asked "why did she constantly insist in very clear teams she would NOT do this action? Was she lying?"
    2) They aren't planning behind the scenes. She and her team haven't recognised the severity of the problem, or genuinely and delusionally believes that her tax cut proposal will provide the required effect.

    Either way, she is going to suffer an inverse-honeymoon.
    TBF she would be dealing with two electorates who have different responses - and the Tory Party will have been disposed of at least temporarily, especially if Mr Johnson is rendered hors de combat.
    The most optimistic take is that Truss has a Brilliant Plan, but it's one the Conservatives won't like. So get into Number Ten, then backstab. That's brave, but it might work.

    Otherwise, if she has a Brilliant Plan, why not share it? It could help her win if it's that good. So the simplest answer is that she isn't telling us her plan ... Because she doesn't have a plan.
    I think it's considerably more logical to surmise that a plan is being worked on but is not fully finished, and that given the fact that she's way out infront, Truss sees little merit in laying her plans out to get pelters from the peanut gallery, and get into a battle with Sunak over who can shower the most public money at the issue. We will just have to wait until she's in post.
    What is it about Liz that makes you such a fan? (Surely even the most generously minded can't point to much in way of previous achievements.)
    I can't say really. I strongly disapproved of her candidacy before. Some of it is an emotional response that I can't explain. I warmed to Bojo soon after he came to power too. I've got used to her I suppose.

    But on this issue, it's more that I think it's illogical that Liz and those around her don't plan to do 'something' about the biggest political issue of the next two years.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,376

    Unpopular said:

    Carnyx said:

    Icarus said:

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    If they are not then what indeed is the point in them?
    I dont see why they cant say 'we are working xon a comprehensive package and, if i become PM on Sept 5th, will hold an emergency budget to present and vote on these plans before any cap changes take place'
    That she hasn't leads me to suspect they arent.
    I really do think it is beyond belief that they are not working on the proposals as the COE has already said

    I suspect the problem is Truss still is foreign secretary and cannot assume she will become PM and is standing by that position
    Its increasingly probable that they are hopeless, witless goobers.
    Talk now of a £6000 cap. 'Tax cuts' is like saying we need to deal with that wasp before we fight off this T Rex
    If that is all it is then it is over, not only for Truss, but the conservative party
    Deservedly so in those circs
    I absolutely agree but I really do not think even Truss is that idiotic
    When do we expect the emergency budget? Unless things change they only have from 5th -22nd September, with the HoC returning on 17th October.

    The problem is that a quick announcement -before 22nd September will probably produce ill thought out policies. If they take the time - at the end of October - to make sure the policies are watertight then the delay will make them look weak.
    It will need to be before the price cap hits, so before conferences.
    If they haven’t been planning behind the scenes for an announcement as soon as the new PM is in post, then they deserve to be hammered at the next election. Is assume the Civil Service hasn’t been on holiday throughout the whole of July and August.
    Two scenarios:
    1) They are planning behind the scenes. Significant and decisive action to remove the price cap bomb from the political stage. At which point Mistress Truss and her cabinet of BoJo sycophants will be asked "why did she constantly insist in very clear teams she would NOT do this action? Was she lying?"
    2) They aren't planning behind the scenes. She and her team haven't recognised the severity of the problem, or genuinely and delusionally believes that her tax cut proposal will provide the required effect.

    Either way, she is going to suffer an inverse-honeymoon.
    TBF she would be dealing with two electorates who have different responses - and the Tory Party will have been disposed of at least temporarily, especially if Mr Johnson is rendered hors de combat.
    The most optimistic take is that Truss has a Brilliant Plan, but it's one the Conservatives won't like. So get into Number Ten, then backstab. That's brave, but it might work.

    Otherwise, if she has a Brilliant Plan, why not share it? It could help her win if it's that good. So the simplest answer is that she isn't telling us her plan ... Because she doesn't have a plan.
    I think it's considerably more logical to surmise that a plan is being worked on but is not fully finished, and that given the fact that she's way out infront, Truss sees little merit in laying her plans out to get pelters from the peanut gallery, and get into a battle with Sunak over who can shower the most public money at the issue. We will just have to wait until she's in post.
    Meanwhile the Country is barrelling down the tracks into the Fuel/Cost of Living Crisis while the Tory Party engage in a self-indulgent argument over who gets to drive the train and they refuse to take any action until that's decided.

    Maybe Truss's strategy, assuming she has a plan etc, is good politics for the moment but it is not good Governance.
    Despite what Truss's fanboys say, there is no reason to suppose the lady has a plan given that until a few days ago she explicitly ruled out "handouts". Now, stung by Rishi's accusation of moral failure or the opinion polls showing Keir Starmer's plan will see him into Downing Street, or even the industry's own plan, it is entirely plausible that Liz Truss now wants a plan but it stretches credulity to imagine she always had one but is keeping it secret.
    No, she had not explicitly ruled them out. She had stated a strong preference against them. Those two are very different positions.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Just seen this in the Observer:
    "GPs could write prescriptions for money off energy bills for the most vulnerable under a plan drawn up by the Treasury, as Liz Truss’s team signalled more help with costs now forecast to top £6,000 next year.

    The unusual proposal would mean people could consult their doctor for an assessment on whether they are struggling enough to require help with their bills."

    I think describing the proposal as "unusual" is stretching the meaning of the word too far!

    They are as mad as a box of frogs.
    How does a GP work out whether someone's economically vulnerable? A bit awkward to ask to look at someone's bank account.
    Rookie mistake, you don't look at someone's bank account to see if the are economically vulnerable.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,942
    MISTY said:

    Carnyx said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    Taz said:
    The lack of anything from the government means SKS can basically trot out any old muck and clean up for now.
    Govt response will need to be far more wide ranging and longer term, provide actual help now that SKS is removing on top of dealing with the cap and deal with business being gouged.
    Will it? Will it fuck.
    The silence is embarrassing and giving Starmer a field day

    Even this morning Truss's spokesperson on Sky was wittering on making little sense, and my conclusion is they are working on a comprehensive scheme to be announced in September and not before despite the political flack

    However, if not then it is over for the conservatives, Truss and many of their mps and they will have plenty of time to reflect on their 'kamikaze' Summer of 2022
    If they are not then what indeed is the point in them?
    I dont see why they cant say 'we are working on a comprehensive package and, if i become PM on Sept 5th, will hold an emergency budget to present and vote on these plans before any cap changes take place'
    That she hasn't leads me to suspect they arent.
    I really do think it is beyond belief that they are not working on the proposals as the COE has already said

    I suspect the problem is Truss still is foreign secretary and cannot assume she will become PM and is standing by that position
    Its increasingly probable that they are hopeless, witless goobers.
    Talk now of a £6000 cap. 'Tax cuts' is like saying we need to deal with that wasp before we fight off this T Rex
    If that is all it is then it is over, not only for Truss, but the conservative party
    The electorate knows why energy prices are high. It knows that its because of gigantic policy mistakes by the coalition, Cameron's government, May's government and Johnson's government.

    Decisions mostly applauded by Labour and criticised only because they did not go far enough.

    People know that you can't aim to phase out hydrocarbons and have cheap hydrocarbons at the same time.
    What would have been the specific policy that you think would have prevented this? The best I can think of from a "more hydrocarbons" angle is subsidizing domestic production so you have capacity even though it would be cheaper to import, and then once in the current situation to ban exports.
    We don;t need an export ban. We just need to make sure the government takes its cut of the gas produced. It always has. Bloomberg reported in May the treasury is making record profits from the stuff we are producing.

    How many billions would selling the Germans gas be netting the treasury right now, if the tories had started fracking in 2017?

    Kerching.
    Very little. UK is not the place for fracking, geologically.

    Edit: anyway the UK does already rely in part on a form of fracking, just offshore where it is actually useful.
    There was a guy on the tory hustings trail who vehemently disagreed with you.

    But then, he was a mining engineer, so what would he know?
    Many people advocate spending money on their services to create non viable products.

    Half of venture capital goes that way…

    Fracking (on land) died in the U.K. because the companies involved couldn’t meet specified levels of (non) disturbance to their neighbours while making a profit.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,709

    Net favourability:

    Scottish National Party +5
    Scottish Green Party +/-0
    Scottish Labour -3
    Scottish Liberal Democrats -13
    Scottish Conservative & Unionist Party -38

    (Ipsos Scotland; 12-15 August; sample size: 1,000)

    Heh but you tell us Labour is hated in Scotland, how strange.
    Huh? You must be confusing me with someone else. Or making things up. Both common around here.

    SLab are pitied rather than hated. They are a sorry bunch.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,376

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
    Idiotic. Scotland has a great deal to offer England and the world, whether independent or otherwise. Just rather a shame the only way some people can see their way to that is via a traumatic and destructive separation.
    I don't know anyone up here who plans independence where they aren't friends and trading partners with England post-independence. They just don't want HYUFD dragging them around by the hair against their will.
    Well, you obviously haven't met people widely then, as there are plenty.
    I don't doubt that to be the case. Happily those people are not in power so their opinion won't actually impact the friendly trading partnership which would inevitably follow independence.
    I think it would be a rather fraught process, but I don't doubt that both countries would survive.

    It wouldn't be the catharsis some believe it would be though. Politically, I don't really think it's about Westminster having too much influence over Scotland, it's about Scotland not having enough influence over Westminster. Which wouldn't change with indy.

    What is actually called for is, to ascend my soapbox again, a 'Council of the Isles' attended by the leaders of the UK, England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, 5 votes, with a veto on key finance legislation, major foreign policy decisions, and major infrastructure decisions. Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland (or any other combination of 3) could block something it did not like.

    This would recognise Scotland's nationhood and give it equal weight, despite the numerical disparity with England. It would mean Scotland (along with the other home nations) was not being railroaded by the UK. It would be the 21st century UK - an equal community of proud nations.
    Absolutely - also known as the UK parliament once Home Rule is fully enacted and England has a parliament like the other nations.

    Go even further and have the Isle of Man, Guernsey and Jersey represented. As this top level parliament / council will do the things that involve them - finance, foreign policy, security, coordination - it seems unfair at the moment that they have no input.
    Perhaps, but the instrument I'm proposing doesn't 'need' English devolution for it to work. Providing English MP's can elect some sort of leader to represent them. Of course, an English First Minister would be the ideal representative for England.
  • NEW THREAD

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,376

    I hope you've all set up your direct debits to Jolyon Maugham to save the UK from fascism.

    image

    I am somewhat surprised a bodyguard is called for, surely a baseball bat in the wardrobe and a silk kimono draped over a nearby chair is enough to deter any would be assailants.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,547
    Back on my favourite topic.

    Just as privatisation was the hall mark of the 1980s, devolution needs to be the theme of the 2020s.

    Britain has one of the weakest, worst funded local democracies in the world. Westminster stifles all with its dead hand.

    In England, devolve proper power to 38 counties and 18 metros. Health. Education. Transport. Housing. Economic Development. Allow them to tax and spend 30-40% of government expenditure. Allow them to borrow for capital investment.

    In Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, provide the tax raising powers so that the governments are accountable to their own tax payers and remove the in-built incentive to complain about Westminster.

    It would be a profound democratic project and an economic boon to boot.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,376

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Fishing said:

    Roger said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Brexit has turned England into a turd world country.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/look-bright-side-sea-sewage-27791730

    Morning Stu, it seems it's Sectarian Sunday.

    Publicly owned Scottish Water features in your linked piece. Sturgeon's Shitty Scotland?

    When they were publicly owned, you had no choice but to swim in a boring sea, that was just wet all over. But now you can either carry on in a sea that’s old-fashioned, or you can choose a more interesting one with islands of mucky toilet paper floating through it.

    Katy Taylor, of Scottish Water, reassured us by saying it was up to the public to decide whether it’s safe, hinting we shouldn’t worry because the sea is “95% rainwater”.


    Your man Mark Steel doesn't seem to have noticed that that one *is* publicly owned.
    You need to look up the meaning of 'sectarian'. I don't see Stu wearing a footie scarf while chanting "* the Pope". It detracts from your PBToryexpertise on Scottish
    matters.
    Okay then. It’s “Anglophobic August”. Better?

    The Tory Party seem not to think so*. The Tories actually tried claiming that Scottish criticism of Tory* policies was inherently racist and Anglophobic, but they back-tracked within a very few hours. That was in the months before the referendum of 2014, and I remember that very well - evidently a coordinated message out to all their mouthpieces in the news outlets, then an almost instant reverse ferret.

    *Not sure about today.

    **UKG included LDs at the time, of course.
    The criticism was of Dickson personally. He changed the headline of a piece, critical of water quality in “Britain”, to “England”, despite the article itself clearly referring to water companies on both sides of the border. Scottish Water is publicly owned.

    Scottish Nationalism is not inherently Anglophobic. Stuart Dickson absolutely is.

    Anyone with a brain is anglophobic at the moment. England voted Brexit and voted Tory even with the knowledge Johnson would be Prime Minister. The Scots didn't. Can you blame them for sneering and loathing us for
    the choices we foisted on them?
    Actually 40% or so of Scots did. Why are they never mentioned?
    If 100% of Scots had voted to Remain then
    the U.K. would have Remained.
    That would have been an absolutely hilarious result. Can you imagine the frothing on here?
    Indeed. Nations and nationalities are idiotic arbitrary divisions. I’d abolish them all. Municipalities, and loose, fluid, federations thereof, should be the basic governing unit.

    That is a great idea. I feel a lot more attachment to my neighbourhood and city than I do to the country we are located in. Real local devolution plus a world government to manage global issues would be an interesting setup.
    Or... Lots of layers, local as possible, large scale as necessary?

    One of the odd experiences of going to Europe is seeing multiple flags, representing everything from a town to a continent. Equal in size and status. Somehow, the British (by which, let's be honest, I mean the English) don't cope with that well. Why?
    Because the English used to rule half the world and so a lot of English people who might otherwise feel that they had received a raw deal out of life got to feel good about themselves by focusing intensely on the English part of their identity to the detriment of all others. Notice how British identity in Scotland has waxed and waned with the rise and fall of the British Empire. The English would feel a lot happier, and certainly be a hell of a lot better governed, if they embraced regionalism, localism and Europe. But I'm not English so it's not really my business.
    I'm not sure I understand this. The English don't seem to focus hugely on their Englishness from what I've seen. It's a very old country with a centralised state. Italy and Germany had much more history of regional government. Until recently a lot of England fans would wave the Union Jack rather than St George. Nice that you suggest it was the English not the British who ruled half the world.
    In my experience most English people use the terms England and Britain almost interchangeably. I think few have really thought that they are two separate entities, certainly not until fairly recently. It was of course the British not the English Empire and I know that the Scots played a disproportionate role in building and administering it, including all the bad bits like slavery. Nevertheless to most English people I think that the Empire is seen as essentially an English endeavour.
    Is that why we call it the British Empire?
  • Back on my favourite topic.

    Just as privatisation was the hall mark of the 1980s, devolution needs to be the theme of the 2020s.

    Britain has one of the weakest, worst funded local democracies in the world. Westminster stifles all with its dead hand.

    In England, devolve proper power to 38 counties and 18 metros. Health. Education. Transport. Housing. Economic Development. Allow them to tax and spend 30-40% of government expenditure. Allow them to borrow for capital investment.

    In Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, provide the tax raising powers so that the governments are accountable to their own tax payers and remove the in-built incentive to complain about Westminster.

    It would be a profound democratic project and an economic boon to boot.

    It would be good, but how to get there? How do you persuade a government comprised of people who have spent their careers seeking power to give it away?

    The current lot, who weren't lying when they said they would Take Back Control are an extreme case, but there's a wider issue here. Short of a massive national calamity, how do you get a central government to devolve?
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,401

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing the sky high energy prices do do is boost the case for independence. Energy is as big a problem for England on its own as currency is for Scotland, so there's forces on both sides to come to something something sensible should the vote occur

    Last time I looked the more fruity Unionists were stating that rUK would put an embargo on buying energy from an Indy Scotland.
    Did they really say that? Water, too, presumably.
    It’s part of the miraculous UK single market guff whereby whatever Scotland produces is so rubbish only England will buy it, and only within the UK.
    How we all laughed at Salmond proposing to export renewable energy. Doesn't look quite so ridiculous now.
    There are also lakes, solar panels, wind farms and offshore wind and nuclear power in England too.

    Scotland also spends more as a percentage of gdp than almost any other nation in the world subsidised in large part by the UK Government. If it was ever allowed indyref2 and voted Yes the UK Treasury would obviously cut that tap off
    Lakes don't help unless there's a big drop downstream of them.

    Scotland has a lot more wind than most of England and fewer nimbies

    You know the solution to the migrants in the channel problem? There isn't one, or someone would have thought of it. And crossings this year 20,000 which is about double same time last year which was double 2020. There's a huge new wave due to come from Africa as population grows and the planet cooks

    You know what the solution to illegal immigration into Scotland would be? Dead simple. It's a land border, and what is the incentive anyway?

    The future is a dystopianly overcrowded England and Wales crying out for power and water. Captive market.
    "We're going to build a big, beautiful wall. And Scotland is going to pay for it"
    You are Emperor Hadrian and I claim my five pounds.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 17,547

    Back on my favourite topic.

    Just as privatisation was the hall mark of the 1980s, devolution needs to be the theme of the 2020s.

    Britain has one of the weakest, worst funded local democracies in the world. Westminster stifles all with its dead hand.

    In England, devolve proper power to 38 counties and 18 metros. Health. Education. Transport. Housing. Economic Development. Allow them to tax and spend 30-40% of government expenditure. Allow them to borrow for capital investment.

    In Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, provide the tax raising powers so that the governments are accountable to their own tax payers and remove the in-built incentive to complain about Westminster.

    It would be a profound democratic project and an economic boon to boot.

    It would be good, but how to get there? How do you persuade a government comprised of people who have spent their careers seeking power to give it away?

    The current lot, who weren't lying when they said they would Take Back Control are an extreme case, but there's a wider issue here. Short of a massive national calamity, how do you get a central government to devolve?
    As privatisation needed a Thatcher, devolution needs a led from the top as an explicit project of national renewal.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,732

    Just seen this in the Observer:
    "GPs could write prescriptions for money off energy bills for the most vulnerable under a plan drawn up by the Treasury, as Liz Truss’s team signalled more help with costs now forecast to top £6,000 next year.

    The unusual proposal would mean people could consult their doctor for an assessment on whether they are struggling enough to require help with their bills."

    I think describing the proposal as "unusual" is stretching the meaning of the word too far!

    so doctors are now going to spend time assessing peoples finances? FFS get a grip
    Welfare assessment would be outside the NHS contract, so therefore require an extra payment to the Practice.

    Not that GPs have either time, training or inclination to do it. It is just a product of Truss’s overheating random policy generator. Much like the Dads Army of retired doctors and nurses coming back to work. Honestly, is she so stupid as to not understand why people retire?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 8,609
    edited August 2022

    Back on my favourite topic.

    Just as privatisation was the hall mark of the 1980s, devolution needs to be the theme of the 2020s.

    Britain has one of the weakest, worst funded local democracies in the world. Westminster stifles all with its dead hand.

    In England, devolve proper power to 38 counties and 18 metros. Health. Education. Transport. Housing. Economic Development. Allow them to tax and spend 30-40% of government expenditure. Allow them to borrow for capital investment.

    In Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, provide the tax raising powers so that the governments are accountable to their own tax payers and remove the in-built incentive to complain about Westminster.

    It would be a profound democratic project and an economic boon to boot.

    It would be good, but how to get there? How do you persuade a government comprised of people who have spent their careers seeking power to give it away?

    The current lot, who weren't lying when they said they would Take Back Control are an extreme case, but there's a wider issue here. Short of a massive national calamity, how do you get a central government to devolve?
    As privatisation needed a Thatcher, devolution needs a led from the top as an explicit project of national renewal.
    Still a tricky balance psychologically.

    Since it's Sunday, I feel OK in saying its a "cunning as a serpent, innocent as a dove" problem. You need a politician to be cunning to get into power, and then innocent to give that power away in the national interest. And that's not easy.

    The other scenario where you can make the interests align is when a government knows (really knows) it is on the way out. If the Conservatives were smart, and reading the signs of the times, it would be in their interests to devolve a lot of powers and funds to counties, or even consortia of counties (just don't call them regions). If a lot of power rested in Tunbridge Wells, Winchester, Bury St Edmunds and so on, there would be bases for Conservatives to exercise power from, even if they were chucked out in Westminster. But that requires the government to recognise that they're on the way out and that's unlikely to change. And the sort of people who become politicians are tempramentally rubbish at recognising that, which is why they can be politicans without going mad.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779

    Just seen this in the Observer:
    "GPs could write prescriptions for money off energy bills for the most vulnerable under a plan drawn up by the Treasury, as Liz Truss’s team signalled more help with costs now forecast to top £6,000 next year.

    The unusual proposal would mean people could consult their doctor for an assessment on whether they are struggling enough to require help with their bills."

    I think describing the proposal as "unusual" is stretching the meaning of the word too far!

    No potential for fraud here! Also by the time anyone has got an appointment to discuss this with their GP we will be into the spring!
    Just saying that CABs can provide fuel bank vouchers up to 3 times a year if ona low income and prepayment meter.

    My wife volunteers for CAB and quite a lot of fuel bank and food bank vouchers are being asked for.
    Good heavens, I didn't even know there were such things as fuel banks. If only because we haven't had any PB Tories decrying them like they did food banks a year or so back.

This discussion has been closed.