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Remember Truss was 3rd place amongst CON MPs – politicalbetting.com

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  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,155

    Tres said:

    EPG said:

    I also think the "blob" theory is just a rewriting of the Cathedral conspiracy theory of American "neo-reactionary" writer Curtis Yarvin, which probably reached Dom via the so-called intellectual dark web of Silicon Valley right-wingers. If this all sounds daft, welcome to the Internet era!

    It's just conventional 'othering' from a political party that has absolutely run out of ideas and so has nothing to offer to the country except fear and divisiveness.
    "the blob" and "woke" are just terms the Right uses to denigrate people or ideas that they disagree with but are too lazy to argue against coherently. And Andrew Neil can rant as much as he likes about the Left but it seems to be politicians on the right who are trying to deprive him of a living by refusing to be interviewed by him!
    Andrew Neil has become a pathetic caricature of himself. It’s long time he disappeared into the Riviera, or some other sunny place for shady people.
    It's a shame because he is a serious political journalist and probably our best interviewer of politicians. He didn't do himself any favours getting involved with the farcical GB News.
    People who are attracted to public service careers probably do skew left wing, but equally people in sectors like finance skew right wing. As a left winger in finance I just shrug my shoulders and get on with it - it's not a conspiracy. If we want more right wing civil servants we should probably pay them more.
    I was on the trading floor when Major won in 92 and it was wall to wall partytime - I sloped off.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Insane


    The weather in Polzeath for the next week is perfect. Cloudless skies, highs of 25. Annoyingly, I have done something painful to my back and almost any movement is tiring and painful. Had hoped to go stand up paddleboarding on Wednesday and will be very disappointed if I can't, not least for my daughters who have been looking forward to it for some time. Fingers crossed for some sort of recovery.
    Anyway, the beach at Polzeath: those who know it will know that it's perfection includes a stream which courses down the beach presenting opportunities for digging and damming. It is just too wide to leap; you have to take your socks and shoes off and ford it. We have been here every August since 2016 and done this. This year, the stream is a bare trickle six inches wife rather than six feet wide.
    Yes, my family down in Cornwall is celebrating the weather. Apart from My Aged Father, who says he yearns for "coolness and rain"

    It must be quite sunny if Cornish people are saying that

    Shame about your back. Perhaps a gentle walk? If you're in N Cornwall you could do Bedruthan Steps, which is properly magnificent - tho if you know the area you've probably done it already. I also recommend a jaunt to Morwenstow, in far north Cornwall. It gets seriously remote and magical up there... and would be glorious in fine sunshine
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,802
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    Yes, we're far too keen to call people we disagree with stupid. I find it hard to believe that there are stupid people at the top level of politics. Even Richard Burgon has, I believe, a degree from Cambridge, which genuinely stupid people don't tend to be awarded.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,802
    IshmaelZ said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I don't agree that there are too many people - that is a deeply spurious shibboleth in my opinion. No other living thing shares that view of its own species. When we approach capacity in this planet (if that is possible) we will colonise space.

    The water in the sea still evaporates and falls again as rain. As for the ice sheets melting, that would add more water to the cycle, not take it away. We will perhaps revisit this conversation when facing the usual winter flooding alarm.

    The earth could easily support 50 or 100 bn people, and quite possibly a lot more, albeit there would need to be some fairly substantial lifestyle changes to achieve this.

    With that said, given reproduction is now in the easy control of humans (almost anywhere), birth rates have absolutely collapsed.

    So the likelihood of the world population exploding (or even growing particularly quickly), seems pretty remote.

    ISTR something posted a few years back (possibly by you) showing the world has already reached peak child. There will never be more children in the world than there are now. There will be more people, as that peak moves up the age ranges, but it will stabilise at around 11bn, before gently declining.
    Now 11bn is not without its challenges; and nor is a population decline. But I am moderately optimistic about our ability to meet those challenges.
    Median world household income is about $10,000. your optimism has to include optimism that the poor are going to be happy staying poor, because in terms of resource consumtion bringing them all up to the living standards of very very poor westerners is equivalent to doubling (at a guess) the population.
    I'm also genuinely optimistic that the future will see the average individual have a better standard of living while consuming less.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,155
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I feel sorry for anyone on a really expensive Mediterranean holiday right now

    If these hot UK summers continue you may as well stay home in summer and go to the Mediterranean in the autumn or the Canary Isles in winter instead
    I was thinking that very thought half an hour ago as I strolled around the park. I've always been minded to retire somewhere tranquil with guaranteed sunshine and hot summers, and the Med was obviously on my list

    But.... if the weather (at least in southern England) is going to be like this, do I really want to be scorching myself in foreign parts?

    Maybe it is better to stay in London and take winter breaks in Thailand

    The FT is speculating that inland Spain is going to depopulate, thanks to climate change

    "In 50 years, will anyone still live in central Spain?"

    https://www.ft.com/content/e7b5bf76-37ec-4be5-aa85-db03891c1066
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited August 2022
    Cookie said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I don't agree that there are too many people - that is a deeply spurious shibboleth in my opinion. No other living thing shares that view of its own species. When we approach capacity in this planet (if that is possible) we will colonise space.

    The water in the sea still evaporates and falls again as rain. As for the ice sheets melting, that would add more water to the cycle, not take it away. We will perhaps revisit this conversation when facing the usual winter flooding alarm.

    The earth could easily support 50 or 100 bn people, and quite possibly a lot more, albeit there would need to be some fairly substantial lifestyle changes to achieve this.

    With that said, given reproduction is now in the easy control of humans (almost anywhere), birth rates have absolutely collapsed.

    So the likelihood of the world population exploding (or even growing particularly quickly), seems pretty remote.

    ISTR something posted a few years back (possibly by you) showing the world has already reached peak child. There will never be more children in the world than there are now. There will be more people, as that peak moves up the age ranges, but it will stabilise at around 11bn, before gently declining.
    Now 11bn is not without its challenges; and nor is a population decline. But I am moderately optimistic about our ability to meet those challenges.
    Median world household income is about $10,000. your optimism has to include optimism that the poor are going to be happy staying poor, because in terms of resource consumtion bringing them all up to the living standards of very very poor westerners is equivalent to doubling (at a guess) the population.
    I'm also genuinely optimistic that the future will see the average individual have a better standard of living while consuming less.
    The average African couldn't consume less without dying.

    True story: if you drive through parts of Ethiopia you get puzzled by small children who stand by the roadside shouting Eyelan! Eyelan! at passing vehicles. This means "Highland" which is the standard brand of bottled water, and they are shouting in the hope you will chuck an empty plastic bottle out of the window to them. It is apparently worth their while or their families' while for them to devote their whole day to this. I don't see that lot cutting their consumption.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,802
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Insane


    The weather in Polzeath for the next week is perfect. Cloudless skies, highs of 25. Annoyingly, I have done something painful to my back and almost any movement is tiring and painful. Had hoped to go stand up paddleboarding on Wednesday and will be very disappointed if I can't, not least for my daughters who have been looking forward to it for some time. Fingers crossed for some sort of recovery.
    Anyway, the beach at Polzeath: those who know it will know that it's perfection includes a stream which courses down the beach presenting opportunities for digging and damming. It is just too wide to leap; you have to take your socks and shoes off and ford it. We have been here every August since 2016 and done this. This year, the stream is a bare trickle six inches wife rather than six feet wide.
    Yes, my family down in Cornwall is celebrating the weather. Apart from My Aged Father, who says he yearns for "coolness and rain"

    It must be quite sunny if Cornish people are saying that

    Shame about your back. Perhaps a gentle walk? If you're in N Cornwall you could do Bedruthan Steps, which is properly magnificent - tho if you know the area you've probably done it already. I also recommend a jaunt to Morwenstow, in far north Cornwall. It gets seriously remote and magical up there... and would be glorious in fine sunshine
    Thanks, I've done neither of those things - will check them out.
    Who knows with backs? Hopefully a gentle walk will not be beyond me, and perhaps in a couple of days I'll be back out with my spade on the beach again.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    Cookie said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I don't agree that there are too many people - that is a deeply spurious shibboleth in my opinion. No other living thing shares that view of its own species. When we approach capacity in this planet (if that is possible) we will colonise space.

    The water in the sea still evaporates and falls again as rain. As for the ice sheets melting, that would add more water to the cycle, not take it away. We will perhaps revisit this conversation when facing the usual winter flooding alarm.

    The earth could easily support 50 or 100 bn people, and quite possibly a lot more, albeit there would need to be some fairly substantial lifestyle changes to achieve this.

    With that said, given reproduction is now in the easy control of humans (almost anywhere), birth rates have absolutely collapsed.

    So the likelihood of the world population exploding (or even growing particularly quickly), seems pretty remote.

    ISTR something posted a few years back (possibly by you) showing the world has already reached peak child. There will never be more children in the world than there are now. There will be more people, as that peak moves up the age ranges, but it will stabilise at around 11bn, before gently declining.
    Now 11bn is not without its challenges; and nor is a population decline. But I am moderately optimistic about our ability to meet those challenges.
    Median world household income is about $10,000. your optimism has to include optimism that the poor are going to be happy staying poor, because in terms of resource consumtion bringing them all up to the living standards of very very poor westerners is equivalent to doubling (at a guess) the population.
    I'm also genuinely optimistic that the future will see the average individual have a better standard of living while consuming less.
    Less proper meat. Through wind, solar and batteries there's no need to drop anyones standard of living long term
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,155
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    Yes, we're far too keen to call people we disagree with stupid. I find it hard to believe that there are stupid people at the top level of politics. Even Richard Burgon has, I believe, a degree from Cambridge, which genuinely stupid people don't tend to be awarded.
    Yes, it's more turn of phrase than literal truth. Almost all top politicians are smarter than the average bear. Priti Patel is one of the very few where I think this may not be true - but even there she's far from thick.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,662
    Leon said:

    Insane


    Scorchio
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Insane


    The weather in Polzeath for the next week is perfect. Cloudless skies, highs of 25. Annoyingly, I have done something painful to my back and almost any movement is tiring and painful. Had hoped to go stand up paddleboarding on Wednesday and will be very disappointed if I can't, not least for my daughters who have been looking forward to it for some time. Fingers crossed for some sort of recovery.
    Anyway, the beach at Polzeath: those who know it will know that it's perfection includes a stream which courses down the beach presenting opportunities for digging and damming. It is just too wide to leap; you have to take your socks and shoes off and ford it. We have been here every August since 2016 and done this. This year, the stream is a bare trickle six inches wife rather than six feet wide.
    Yes, my family down in Cornwall is celebrating the weather. Apart from My Aged Father, who says he yearns for "coolness and rain"

    It must be quite sunny if Cornish people are saying that

    Shame about your back. Perhaps a gentle walk? If you're in N Cornwall you could do Bedruthan Steps, which is properly magnificent - tho if you know the area you've probably done it already. I also recommend a jaunt to Morwenstow, in far north Cornwall. It gets seriously remote and magical up there... and would be glorious in fine sunshine
    Thanks, I've done neither of those things - will check them out.
    Who knows with backs? Hopefully a gentle walk will not be beyond me, and perhaps in a couple of days I'll be back out with my spade on the beach again.
    Hope the back improves

    Morwenstow is worth the detour even on a drizzly day. On a day of endless sun it will be sublime. And you won't have to walk far for brilliant views

    https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/morwenstow

    Look out for that hut where the mad parson smoked opium

    Bedruthan Steps is majestic. The kind of place where you think "how come I haven't heard of this". Watergate Bay is also pretty impressive

    Bedruthan Steps:


  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I feel sorry for anyone on a really expensive Mediterranean holiday right now

    If these hot UK summers continue you may as well stay home in summer and go to the Mediterranean in the autumn or the Canary Isles in winter instead
    I was thinking that very thought half an hour ago as I strolled around the park. I've always been minded to retire somewhere tranquil with guaranteed sunshine and hot summers, and the Med was obviously on my list

    But.... if the weather (at least in southern England) is going to be like this, do I really want to be scorching myself in foreign parts?

    Maybe it is better to stay in London and take winter breaks in Thailand

    The FT is speculating that inland Spain is going to depopulate, thanks to climate change

    "In 50 years, will anyone still live in central Spain?"

    https://www.ft.com/content/e7b5bf76-37ec-4be5-aa85-db03891c1066
    Is it possible to visit Thailand at the moment?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I feel sorry for anyone on a really expensive Mediterranean holiday right now

    If these hot UK summers continue you may as well stay home in summer and go to the Mediterranean in the autumn or the Canary Isles in winter instead
    I was thinking that very thought half an hour ago as I strolled around the park. I've always been minded to retire somewhere tranquil with guaranteed sunshine and hot summers, and the Med was obviously on my list

    But.... if the weather (at least in southern England) is going to be like this, do I really want to be scorching myself in foreign parts?

    Maybe it is better to stay in London and take winter breaks in Thailand

    The FT is speculating that inland Spain is going to depopulate, thanks to climate change

    "In 50 years, will anyone still live in central Spain?"

    https://www.ft.com/content/e7b5bf76-37ec-4be5-aa85-db03891c1066
    Is it possible to visit Thailand at the moment?
    Yes, tho apparently it is still quiet. But this is low season
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    edited August 2022
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I feel sorry for anyone on a really expensive Mediterranean holiday right now

    If these hot UK summers continue you may as well stay home in summer and go to the Mediterranean in the autumn or the Canary Isles in winter instead
    I would never visit the Mediterranean for the weather, I'd go for the cultural attractions. Prefer cold weather anyway, so the winter would be the best time for me.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,567

    When will Liz Truss have her first meeting with Biden as PM?

    Biden thinks he's PM???
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    I feel sorry for anyone on a really expensive Mediterranean holiday right now

    If these hot UK summers continue you may as well stay home in summer and go to the Mediterranean in the autumn or the Canary Isles in winter instead
    I was thinking that very thought half an hour ago as I strolled around the park. I've always been minded to retire somewhere tranquil with guaranteed sunshine and hot summers, and the Med was obviously on my list

    But.... if the weather (at least in southern England) is going to be like this, do I really want to be scorching myself in foreign parts?

    Maybe it is better to stay in London and take winter breaks in Thailand

    The FT is speculating that inland Spain is going to depopulate, thanks to climate change

    "In 50 years, will anyone still live in central Spain?"

    https://www.ft.com/content/e7b5bf76-37ec-4be5-aa85-db03891c1066
    Is it possible to visit Thailand at the moment?
    Proof of vaccination only from July 1st I believe.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,999
    On the cost of two kinds of illegal entry: About ten years ago, I read a story about sham marriages in a local newspaper, the Northwest Asian Weekly. As I recall, the American groom (or bride) was being paid about 30K then. (Curious, I wrote the reporter and asked her how the people arranging these things found Americans willing to make these sham marriages. According to her, one of the best places to find recruits was at gambling casinos.)

    Somewhat to my surprise, I've seen similar prices quoted for illegals paying for places in shipping containers coming from Asia. Sometimes they get credit -- and then pay the money back as they work, for example, doing dishes in an Asian restaurant,

    (Those interested in the economics of these two types of illegal entry to the US are free to speculate on what changes in the prices could tell us.)
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,802
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Insane


    The weather in Polzeath for the next week is perfect. Cloudless skies, highs of 25. Annoyingly, I have done something painful to my back and almost any movement is tiring and painful. Had hoped to go stand up paddleboarding on Wednesday and will be very disappointed if I can't, not least for my daughters who have been looking forward to it for some time. Fingers crossed for some sort of recovery.
    Anyway, the beach at Polzeath: those who know it will know that it's perfection includes a stream which courses down the beach presenting opportunities for digging and damming. It is just too wide to leap; you have to take your socks and shoes off and ford it. We have been here every August since 2016 and done this. This year, the stream is a bare trickle six inches wife rather than six feet wide.
    Yes, my family down in Cornwall is celebrating the weather. Apart from My Aged Father, who says he yearns for "coolness and rain"

    It must be quite sunny if Cornish people are saying that

    Shame about your back. Perhaps a gentle walk? If you're in N Cornwall you could do Bedruthan Steps, which is properly magnificent - tho if you know the area you've probably done it already. I also recommend a jaunt to Morwenstow, in far north Cornwall. It gets seriously remote and magical up there... and would be glorious in fine sunshine
    Thanks, I've done neither of those things - will check them out.
    Who knows with backs? Hopefully a gentle walk will not be beyond me, and perhaps in a couple of days I'll be back out with my spade on the beach again.
    Hope the back improves

    Morwenstow is worth the detour even on a drizzly day. On a day of endless sun it will be sublime. And you won't have to walk far for brilliant views

    https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/morwenstow

    Look out for that hut where the mad parson smoked opium

    Bedruthan Steps is majestic. The kind of place where you think "how come I haven't heard of this". Watergate Bay is also pretty impressive

    Bedruthan Steps:


    Looking them up, it appears Bedruthan Steps are currently closed. One for another year. But Morwenstow looks spectacular.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    Having a shed load of oil and a load of public assets to flog didn't hurt, either, nor did access to the emerging European single market. Thatcher's macro policies were generally poor, hence her period in office being bookmarked by deep recessions and the economy undergoing an unprecedented rise in income inequality, although product market liberalisation was good. She certainly wasn't a moron, not that I think anyone called her that.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,642

    When will Liz Truss have her first meeting with Biden as PM?

    Biden thinks he's PM???
    C'mon man!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Insane


    The weather in Polzeath for the next week is perfect. Cloudless skies, highs of 25. Annoyingly, I have done something painful to my back and almost any movement is tiring and painful. Had hoped to go stand up paddleboarding on Wednesday and will be very disappointed if I can't, not least for my daughters who have been looking forward to it for some time. Fingers crossed for some sort of recovery.
    Anyway, the beach at Polzeath: those who know it will know that it's perfection includes a stream which courses down the beach presenting opportunities for digging and damming. It is just too wide to leap; you have to take your socks and shoes off and ford it. We have been here every August since 2016 and done this. This year, the stream is a bare trickle six inches wife rather than six feet wide.
    Yes, my family down in Cornwall is celebrating the weather. Apart from My Aged Father, who says he yearns for "coolness and rain"

    It must be quite sunny if Cornish people are saying that

    Shame about your back. Perhaps a gentle walk? If you're in N Cornwall you could do Bedruthan Steps, which is properly magnificent - tho if you know the area you've probably done it already. I also recommend a jaunt to Morwenstow, in far north Cornwall. It gets seriously remote and magical up there... and would be glorious in fine sunshine
    Thanks, I've done neither of those things - will check them out.
    Who knows with backs? Hopefully a gentle walk will not be beyond me, and perhaps in a couple of days I'll be back out with my spade on the beach again.
    Hope the back improves

    Morwenstow is worth the detour even on a drizzly day. On a day of endless sun it will be sublime. And you won't have to walk far for brilliant views

    https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/morwenstow

    Look out for that hut where the mad parson smoked opium

    Bedruthan Steps is majestic. The kind of place where you think "how come I haven't heard of this". Watergate Bay is also pretty impressive

    Bedruthan Steps:


    Looking them up, it appears Bedruthan Steps are currently closed. One for another year. But Morwenstow looks spectacular.
    How do they close an entire stretch of coast?! I guess they mean you can't walk down to the beach. Why? Too dangerous? That's a shame, anyroad


    But yes do go to Morwenstow, but perhaps make it a day trip, the roads are often narrow and it gets increasingly remote (tho that of course is part of the appeal). There's lots to see en route: Tintagel, Boscastle etc
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,837

    When will Liz Truss have her first meeting with Biden as PM?

    Biden thinks he's PM???
    Depends if he has dozed the entire morning.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784
    I am open to the emerging Truss is a political colossus view among PB Tories. As an empiricist, I view every hypothesis as worthy of testing. But one question - if she is such a brilliant politician, why have Tory MPs, who know her best, been reluctant to embrace her (until she became the favourite)? Recall that Thatcher 1.0 was chosen by her fellow MPs.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,155
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    I'm afraid she did, yes, in a radio interview. Rather than the fairyland but not quite false "tax cuts will grow the economy and head off a recession and leave more money in people's pockets to help them cope with the cost of living crisis", she said that her unfunded tax cuts would not feed inflation but "reduce it".

    Still, could have been tired, or not concentrating, or - my betting fav - could have been aware she was talking tosh but doing it for the votes. Anyway of course she's not a literal moron - that's just people talking in casual derogatory fashion about her. What they mean is "not that bright for somebody about to be PM."
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,837
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Insane


    The weather in Polzeath for the next week is perfect. Cloudless skies, highs of 25. Annoyingly, I have done something painful to my back and almost any movement is tiring and painful. Had hoped to go stand up paddleboarding on Wednesday and will be very disappointed if I can't, not least for my daughters who have been looking forward to it for some time. Fingers crossed for some sort of recovery.
    Anyway, the beach at Polzeath: those who know it will know that it's perfection includes a stream which courses down the beach presenting opportunities for digging and damming. It is just too wide to leap; you have to take your socks and shoes off and ford it. We have been here every August since 2016 and done this. This year, the stream is a bare trickle six inches wife rather than six feet wide.
    Yes, my family down in Cornwall is celebrating the weather. Apart from My Aged Father, who says he yearns for "coolness and rain"

    It must be quite sunny if Cornish people are saying that

    Shame about your back. Perhaps a gentle walk? If you're in N Cornwall you could do Bedruthan Steps, which is properly magnificent - tho if you know the area you've probably done it already. I also recommend a jaunt to Morwenstow, in far north Cornwall. It gets seriously remote and magical up there... and would be glorious in fine sunshine
    Thanks, I've done neither of those things - will check them out.
    Who knows with backs? Hopefully a gentle walk will not be beyond me, and perhaps in a couple of days I'll be back out with my spade on the beach again.
    Hope the back improves

    Morwenstow is worth the detour even on a drizzly day. On a day of endless sun it will be sublime. And you won't have to walk far for brilliant views

    https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/morwenstow

    Look out for that hut where the mad parson smoked opium

    Bedruthan Steps is majestic. The kind of place where you think "how come I haven't heard of this". Watergate Bay is also pretty impressive

    Bedruthan Steps:


    Looking them up, it appears Bedruthan Steps are currently closed. One for another year. But Morwenstow looks spectacular.
    Looks very like the Algarve, between Albuferia and Alvor.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Insane


    The weather in Polzeath for the next week is perfect. Cloudless skies, highs of 25. Annoyingly, I have done something painful to my back and almost any movement is tiring and painful. Had hoped to go stand up paddleboarding on Wednesday and will be very disappointed if I can't, not least for my daughters who have been looking forward to it for some time. Fingers crossed for some sort of recovery.
    Anyway, the beach at Polzeath: those who know it will know that it's perfection includes a stream which courses down the beach presenting opportunities for digging and damming. It is just too wide to leap; you have to take your socks and shoes off and ford it. We have been here every August since 2016 and done this. This year, the stream is a bare trickle six inches wife rather than six feet wide.
    Yes, my family down in Cornwall is celebrating the weather. Apart from My Aged Father, who says he yearns for "coolness and rain"

    It must be quite sunny if Cornish people are saying that

    Shame about your back. Perhaps a gentle walk? If you're in N Cornwall you could do Bedruthan Steps, which is properly magnificent - tho if you know the area you've probably done it already. I also recommend a jaunt to Morwenstow, in far north Cornwall. It gets seriously remote and magical up there... and would be glorious in fine sunshine
    Just got back from two weeks in Cornwall, the weather was very nice. It remains my favourite holiday destination. Nice left hand side driving action.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    Having a shed load of oil and a load of public assets to flog didn't hurt, either, nor did access to the emerging European single market. Thatcher's macro policies were generally poor, hence her period in office being bookmarked by deep recessions and the economy undergoing an unprecedented rise in income inequality, although product market liberalisation was good. She certainly wasn't a moron, not that I think anyone called her that.
    It was her and her advisors' idea to flog the public assets, no one else had tried it, it was deeply controversial and experimental, and it went against all received opinion. Yet she did it, and it worked, and then loads of governments copied her, around the world

    Let's see what Liz does

    To my mind she is worth the punt because we are apparently headed for an economic nightmare whatever anyone does. So fuck it. Spin the dice
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    I'm afraid she did, yes, in a radio interview. Rather than the fairyland but not quite false "tax cuts will grow the economy and head off a recession and leave more money in people's pockets to help them cope with the cost of living crisis", she said that her unfunded tax cuts would not feed inflation but "reduce it".

    Still, could have been tired, or not concentrating, or - my betting fav - could have been aware she was talking tosh but doing it for the votes. Anyway of course she's not a literal moron - that's just people talking in casual derogatory fashion about her. What they mean is "not that bright for somebody about to be PM."
    She’s only cosplaying an idiot ?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,802

    I am open to the emerging Truss is a political colossus view among PB Tories. As an empiricist, I view every hypothesis as worthy of testing. But one question - if she is such a brilliant politician, why have Tory MPs, who know her best, been reluctant to embrace her (until she became the favourite)? Recall that Thatcher 1.0 was chosen by her fellow MPs.

    Rather suspect that if it had been left to MPs she would still have emerged the winner.
    I don't recall David Cameron getting the overwhelming support of MPs in early rounds.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    Yes, we're far too keen to call people we disagree with stupid. I find it hard to believe that there are stupid people at the top level of politics. Even Richard Burgon has, I believe, a degree from Cambridge, which genuinely stupid people don't tend to be awarded.
    Yes, it's more turn of phrase than literal truth. Almost all top politicians are smarter than the average bear. Priti Patel is one of the very few where I think this may not be true - but even there she's far from thick.
    I've worked with politicians over the years. I think they can go in to it being stupid and prejudiced, and have a decent run; its like they are surfing a massive wave and they seem to be defying gravity for a while. But then, eventually, they will collapse in spectacular fashion. Some of them can then pick themselves up and learn, others just run for the hills. It is certainly true that the politicians who stay around for a long time are normally a lot smarter than average person.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,837
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    I'm afraid she did, yes, in a radio interview. Rather than the fairyland but not quite false "tax cuts will grow the economy and head off a recession and leave more money in people's pockets to help them cope with the cost of living crisis", she said that her unfunded tax cuts would not feed inflation but "reduce it".

    Still, could have been tired, or not concentrating, or - my betting fav - could have been aware she was talking tosh but doing it for the votes. Anyway of course she's not a literal moron - that's just people talking in casual derogatory fashion about her. What they mean is "not that bright for somebody about to be PM."
    I think her argument is that her targeted taxes of Green levies and VAT on fuel are both driving up the price of fuel which is driving up the price of everything else so cutting those taxes will have a direct effect on the measured inflation rate, even if it increases the quantity of money in the economy. I think in the short term it is not necessarily wrong.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,155

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    Having a shed load of oil and a load of public assets to flog didn't hurt, either, nor did access to the emerging European single market. Thatcher's macro policies were generally poor, hence her period in office being bookmarked by deep recessions and the economy undergoing an unprecedented rise in income inequality, although product market liberalisation was good. She certainly wasn't a moron, not that I think anyone called her that.
    The economic miracle of the 80s is a bit of a myth as far as I can see. It doesn't exactly leap out of the figures.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874
    Late afternoon all :)

    In case you've missed me and how could you with @Leon with all his personae to keep you company let alone Liz Truss, her fashion and her descent into economic madness, I've returned from a most pleasant week in the Lake District.

    Apart from a brief drive through some 25 years ago, my first visit to the region and it's quite beautiful. My positive aspect helped no doubt by a most pleasant hotel in Bowness and journeys to and from by train which ran completely to schedule (you'd never score Avanti West Coast high for the customer experience, the Standard class carriages are more like aeroplanes than trains - we upgraded on the return journey for £50 to Standard Premium (basically weekend first class) which was much more comfortable and pleasant.

    The Lake District's future is as the "hill station" of England's Raj. It's the perfect antidote to the heat and bustle of the south - day temperatures last week around 20c and with night minima in the low teens very equitable and if I were marketing the region, I'd be selling it as the "Retreat from the Heat".

    It needs slightly better infrastructure but the network of local buses is very good - for hospitality in or near towns this is fine but for those hostelries in the middle of nowhere a future with fewer cars may be more of an issue.

    Busy but not as rammed as I was expecting - most accommodation was full at the weekends but the midweeks were quieter. Where the Lakes do score is their attraction for families with dogs - it is incredibly dog-friendly and that's a real positive given the costs of kennels.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    DavidL said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Insane


    The weather in Polzeath for the next week is perfect. Cloudless skies, highs of 25. Annoyingly, I have done something painful to my back and almost any movement is tiring and painful. Had hoped to go stand up paddleboarding on Wednesday and will be very disappointed if I can't, not least for my daughters who have been looking forward to it for some time. Fingers crossed for some sort of recovery.
    Anyway, the beach at Polzeath: those who know it will know that it's perfection includes a stream which courses down the beach presenting opportunities for digging and damming. It is just too wide to leap; you have to take your socks and shoes off and ford it. We have been here every August since 2016 and done this. This year, the stream is a bare trickle six inches wife rather than six feet wide.
    Yes, my family down in Cornwall is celebrating the weather. Apart from My Aged Father, who says he yearns for "coolness and rain"

    It must be quite sunny if Cornish people are saying that

    Shame about your back. Perhaps a gentle walk? If you're in N Cornwall you could do Bedruthan Steps, which is properly magnificent - tho if you know the area you've probably done it already. I also recommend a jaunt to Morwenstow, in far north Cornwall. It gets seriously remote and magical up there... and would be glorious in fine sunshine
    Thanks, I've done neither of those things - will check them out.
    Who knows with backs? Hopefully a gentle walk will not be beyond me, and perhaps in a couple of days I'll be back out with my spade on the beach again.
    Hope the back improves

    Morwenstow is worth the detour even on a drizzly day. On a day of endless sun it will be sublime. And you won't have to walk far for brilliant views

    https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/morwenstow

    Look out for that hut where the mad parson smoked opium

    Bedruthan Steps is majestic. The kind of place where you think "how come I haven't heard of this". Watergate Bay is also pretty impressive

    Bedruthan Steps:


    Looking them up, it appears Bedruthan Steps are currently closed. One for another year. But Morwenstow looks spectacular.
    Looks very like the Algarve, between Albuferia and Alvor.
    The entire south-west coast is overrated IMO. Not helped by the coastal path.

    There are far better stretches of coastline in the UK, without tawdry touristy towns every few miles.

    (Runs for cover. But I'm right...)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    Texas’s Lt. Governor has an original view of the US Constitution.

    “We’re a nation founded upon not the words of our founders, but the words of God because he wrote the Constitution. . . . We were a Christian state and lost that for many years.”
    https://twitter.com/steve_vladeck/status/1555867032855379968
  • Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Insane


    The weather in Polzeath for the next week is perfect. Cloudless skies, highs of 25. Annoyingly, I have done something painful to my back and almost any movement is tiring and painful. Had hoped to go stand up paddleboarding on Wednesday and will be very disappointed if I can't, not least for my daughters who have been looking forward to it for some time. Fingers crossed for some sort of recovery.
    Anyway, the beach at Polzeath: those who know it will know that it's perfection includes a stream which courses down the beach presenting opportunities for digging and damming. It is just too wide to leap; you have to take your socks and shoes off and ford it. We have been here every August since 2016 and done this. This year, the stream is a bare trickle six inches wife rather than six feet wide.
    Yes, my family down in Cornwall is celebrating the weather. Apart from My Aged Father, who says he yearns for "coolness and rain"

    It must be quite sunny if Cornish people are saying that

    Shame about your back. Perhaps a gentle walk? If you're in N Cornwall you could do Bedruthan Steps, which is properly magnificent - tho if you know the area you've probably done it already. I also recommend a jaunt to Morwenstow, in far north Cornwall. It gets seriously remote and magical up there... and would be glorious in fine sunshine
    Thanks, I've done neither of those things - will check them out.
    Who knows with backs? Hopefully a gentle walk will not be beyond me, and perhaps in a couple of days I'll be back out with my spade on the beach again.
    Hope the back improves

    Morwenstow is worth the detour even on a drizzly day. On a day of endless sun it will be sublime. And you won't have to walk far for brilliant views

    https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/morwenstow

    Look out for that hut where the mad parson smoked opium

    Bedruthan Steps is majestic. The kind of place where you think "how come I haven't heard of this". Watergate Bay is also pretty impressive

    Bedruthan Steps:


    Looking them up, it appears Bedruthan Steps are currently closed. One for another year. But Morwenstow looks spectacular.
    Agree about remote and magical. The whole walk from Bude to Hartland Quay, in which Morwenstow is a perfect lunch stop, is glorious, but is also one of the toughest sections of the SWCP.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    DavidL said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Insane


    The weather in Polzeath for the next week is perfect. Cloudless skies, highs of 25. Annoyingly, I have done something painful to my back and almost any movement is tiring and painful. Had hoped to go stand up paddleboarding on Wednesday and will be very disappointed if I can't, not least for my daughters who have been looking forward to it for some time. Fingers crossed for some sort of recovery.
    Anyway, the beach at Polzeath: those who know it will know that it's perfection includes a stream which courses down the beach presenting opportunities for digging and damming. It is just too wide to leap; you have to take your socks and shoes off and ford it. We have been here every August since 2016 and done this. This year, the stream is a bare trickle six inches wife rather than six feet wide.
    Yes, my family down in Cornwall is celebrating the weather. Apart from My Aged Father, who says he yearns for "coolness and rain"

    It must be quite sunny if Cornish people are saying that

    Shame about your back. Perhaps a gentle walk? If you're in N Cornwall you could do Bedruthan Steps, which is properly magnificent - tho if you know the area you've probably done it already. I also recommend a jaunt to Morwenstow, in far north Cornwall. It gets seriously remote and magical up there... and would be glorious in fine sunshine
    Thanks, I've done neither of those things - will check them out.
    Who knows with backs? Hopefully a gentle walk will not be beyond me, and perhaps in a couple of days I'll be back out with my spade on the beach again.
    Hope the back improves

    Morwenstow is worth the detour even on a drizzly day. On a day of endless sun it will be sublime. And you won't have to walk far for brilliant views

    https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/morwenstow

    Look out for that hut where the mad parson smoked opium

    Bedruthan Steps is majestic. The kind of place where you think "how come I haven't heard of this". Watergate Bay is also pretty impressive

    Bedruthan Steps:


    Looking them up, it appears Bedruthan Steps are currently closed. One for another year. But Morwenstow looks spectacular.
    Looks very like the Algarve, between Albuferia and Alvor.
    Good comparison. Tho it is even more like the Costa Vicentina, north of the Algarve (between Sagres and Lisbon)

    Generally I would prefer Portugal, but that's only because of the climate. On a pure day of sunshine, Cornwall wins hands down thanks to pubs and caffs and fun, and prettier villages and lovely rivers etc

    The Costa Vicentina:


  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Insane


    The weather in Polzeath for the next week is perfect. Cloudless skies, highs of 25. Annoyingly, I have done something painful to my back and almost any movement is tiring and painful. Had hoped to go stand up paddleboarding on Wednesday and will be very disappointed if I can't, not least for my daughters who have been looking forward to it for some time. Fingers crossed for some sort of recovery.
    Anyway, the beach at Polzeath: those who know it will know that it's perfection includes a stream which courses down the beach presenting opportunities for digging and damming. It is just too wide to leap; you have to take your socks and shoes off and ford it. We have been here every August since 2016 and done this. This year, the stream is a bare trickle six inches wife rather than six feet wide.
    Yes, my family down in Cornwall is celebrating the weather. Apart from My Aged Father, who says he yearns for "coolness and rain"

    It must be quite sunny if Cornish people are saying that

    Shame about your back. Perhaps a gentle walk? If you're in N Cornwall you could do Bedruthan Steps, which is properly magnificent - tho if you know the area you've probably done it already. I also recommend a jaunt to Morwenstow, in far north Cornwall. It gets seriously remote and magical up there... and would be glorious in fine sunshine
    Thanks, I've done neither of those things - will check them out.
    Who knows with backs? Hopefully a gentle walk will not be beyond me, and perhaps in a couple of days I'll be back out with my spade on the beach again.
    Hope the back improves

    Morwenstow is worth the detour even on a drizzly day. On a day of endless sun it will be sublime. And you won't have to walk far for brilliant views

    https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/morwenstow

    Look out for that hut where the mad parson smoked opium

    Bedruthan Steps is majestic. The kind of place where you think "how come I haven't heard of this". Watergate Bay is also pretty impressive

    Bedruthan Steps:


    Looking them up, it appears Bedruthan Steps are currently closed. One for another year. But Morwenstow looks spectacular.
    Looks very like the Algarve, between Albuferia and Alvor.
    Good comparison. Tho it is even more like the Costa Vicentina, north of the Algarve (between Sagres and Lisbon)

    Generally I would prefer Portugal, but that's only because of the climate. On a pure day of sunshine, Cornwall wins hands down thanks to pubs and caffs and fun, and prettier villages and lovely rivers etc

    The Costa Vicentina:


    Tbf Bedruthan Steps knocks that view into a cocked hat.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784
    Cookie said:

    I am open to the emerging Truss is a political colossus view among PB Tories. As an empiricist, I view every hypothesis as worthy of testing. But one question - if she is such a brilliant politician, why have Tory MPs, who know her best, been reluctant to embrace her (until she became the favourite)? Recall that Thatcher 1.0 was chosen by her fellow MPs.

    Rather suspect that if it had been left to MPs she would still have emerged the winner.
    I don't recall David Cameron getting the overwhelming support of MPs in early rounds.
    But he turned out to be an idiot.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,837
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Insane


    The weather in Polzeath for the next week is perfect. Cloudless skies, highs of 25. Annoyingly, I have done something painful to my back and almost any movement is tiring and painful. Had hoped to go stand up paddleboarding on Wednesday and will be very disappointed if I can't, not least for my daughters who have been looking forward to it for some time. Fingers crossed for some sort of recovery.
    Anyway, the beach at Polzeath: those who know it will know that it's perfection includes a stream which courses down the beach presenting opportunities for digging and damming. It is just too wide to leap; you have to take your socks and shoes off and ford it. We have been here every August since 2016 and done this. This year, the stream is a bare trickle six inches wife rather than six feet wide.
    Yes, my family down in Cornwall is celebrating the weather. Apart from My Aged Father, who says he yearns for "coolness and rain"

    It must be quite sunny if Cornish people are saying that

    Shame about your back. Perhaps a gentle walk? If you're in N Cornwall you could do Bedruthan Steps, which is properly magnificent - tho if you know the area you've probably done it already. I also recommend a jaunt to Morwenstow, in far north Cornwall. It gets seriously remote and magical up there... and would be glorious in fine sunshine
    Thanks, I've done neither of those things - will check them out.
    Who knows with backs? Hopefully a gentle walk will not be beyond me, and perhaps in a couple of days I'll be back out with my spade on the beach again.
    Hope the back improves

    Morwenstow is worth the detour even on a drizzly day. On a day of endless sun it will be sublime. And you won't have to walk far for brilliant views

    https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/morwenstow

    Look out for that hut where the mad parson smoked opium

    Bedruthan Steps is majestic. The kind of place where you think "how come I haven't heard of this". Watergate Bay is also pretty impressive

    Bedruthan Steps:


    Looking them up, it appears Bedruthan Steps are currently closed. One for another year. But Morwenstow looks spectacular.
    Looks very like the Algarve, between Albuferia and Alvor.
    Good comparison. Tho it is even more like the Costa Vicentina, north of the Algarve (between Sagres and Lisbon)

    Generally I would prefer Portugal, but that's only because of the climate. On a pure day of sunshine, Cornwall wins hands down thanks to pubs and caffs and fun, and prettier villages and lovely rivers etc

    The Costa Vicentina:


    I love cataplana, BBQed fish, pasta del natas, sangria and the laid back cafe culture of Portugal so it is a winner for me but if it gets just too hot...
  • DavidL said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Insane


    The weather in Polzeath for the next week is perfect. Cloudless skies, highs of 25. Annoyingly, I have done something painful to my back and almost any movement is tiring and painful. Had hoped to go stand up paddleboarding on Wednesday and will be very disappointed if I can't, not least for my daughters who have been looking forward to it for some time. Fingers crossed for some sort of recovery.
    Anyway, the beach at Polzeath: those who know it will know that it's perfection includes a stream which courses down the beach presenting opportunities for digging and damming. It is just too wide to leap; you have to take your socks and shoes off and ford it. We have been here every August since 2016 and done this. This year, the stream is a bare trickle six inches wife rather than six feet wide.
    Yes, my family down in Cornwall is celebrating the weather. Apart from My Aged Father, who says he yearns for "coolness and rain"

    It must be quite sunny if Cornish people are saying that

    Shame about your back. Perhaps a gentle walk? If you're in N Cornwall you could do Bedruthan Steps, which is properly magnificent - tho if you know the area you've probably done it already. I also recommend a jaunt to Morwenstow, in far north Cornwall. It gets seriously remote and magical up there... and would be glorious in fine sunshine
    Thanks, I've done neither of those things - will check them out.
    Who knows with backs? Hopefully a gentle walk will not be beyond me, and perhaps in a couple of days I'll be back out with my spade on the beach again.
    Hope the back improves

    Morwenstow is worth the detour even on a drizzly day. On a day of endless sun it will be sublime. And you won't have to walk far for brilliant views

    https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/morwenstow

    Look out for that hut where the mad parson smoked opium

    Bedruthan Steps is majestic. The kind of place where you think "how come I haven't heard of this". Watergate Bay is also pretty impressive

    Bedruthan Steps:


    Looking them up, it appears Bedruthan Steps are currently closed. One for another year. But Morwenstow looks spectacular.
    Looks very like the Algarve, between Albuferia and Alvor.
    The entire south-west coast is overrated IMO. Not helped by the coastal path.

    There are far better stretches of coastline in the UK, without tawdry touristy towns every few miles.

    (Runs for cover. But I'm right...)
    "tawdry touristy towns every few miles": true in relation to Torbay, maybe, but the rest of the SWCP ?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,802
    stodge said:

    Late afternoon all :)

    In case you've missed me and how could you with @Leon with all his personae to keep you company let alone Liz Truss, her fashion and her descent into economic madness, I've returned from a most pleasant week in the Lake District.

    Apart from a brief drive through some 25 years ago, my first visit to the region and it's quite beautiful. My positive aspect helped no doubt by a most pleasant hotel in Bowness and journeys to and from by train which ran completely to schedule (you'd never score Avanti West Coast high for the customer experience, the Standard class carriages are more like aeroplanes than trains - we upgraded on the return journey for £50 to Standard Premium (basically weekend first class) which was much more comfortable and pleasant.

    The Lake District's future is as the "hill station" of England's Raj. It's the perfect antidote to the heat and bustle of the south - day temperatures last week around 20c and with night minima in the low teens very equitable and if I were marketing the region, I'd be selling it as the "Retreat from the Heat".

    It needs slightly better infrastructure but the network of local buses is very good - for hospitality in or near towns this is fine but for those hostelries in the middle of nowhere a future with fewer cars may be more of an issue.

    Busy but not as rammed as I was expecting - most accommodation was full at the weekends but the midweeks were quieter. Where the Lakes do score is their attraction for families with dogs - it is incredibly dog-friendly and that's a real positive given the costs of kennels.

    Driverless taxis or minibi could be the fix to your penultimate paragraph. Though while the technology works in cities I suspect there is a way to go before it understands the niceties of single track roads with passing places!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434
    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    France drought: Parched towns left short of drinking water

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62436468

    USA: Half the country is in drought, and no region has been spared

    https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/04/weather/drought-map-northeast-texas-climate/index.html

    More than 75% of the world could face drought by 2050, UN report warns

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/05/drought-2050-un-report-climate-change/

    End Times. Seriously.

    I find these stories utterly ridiculous. Where do people think the water can go? If it goes up, it must come down.

    Mad greens (in line with EU policy) have been trying to stop new reservoirs being built for years precisely to stoke such ludicrous alarmism. If it's not drought, it's floods, with rivers that haven't been dredged for years (again, green blob) mysteriously bursting their banks.
    It could end up in the sea, salty and useless. The amount of fresh water in the world is collapsing with the ice sheets of Greenland and Antartica but much of the world that could rely on a steady flow from mountain tops is going to become more arid too. And of course there are far too many people.
    I don't agree that there are too many people - that is a deeply spurious shibboleth in my opinion. No other living thing shares that view of its own species. When we approach capacity in this planet (if that is possible) we will colonise space.

    The water in the sea still evaporates and falls again as rain. As for the ice sheets melting, that would add more water to the cycle, not take it away. We will perhaps revisit this conversation when facing the usual winter flooding alarm.
    Quality gibberish. No other living thing has a concept of its own species, let alone the ability to make value judgments about it. and aren't you usually on about how inorganic and empty modern food is? Because you would halve numbers automatically if you abolished non-rockdust fertilisers.

    The ridiculous stories aren't about what might in theory happen, they are about what is actually happening. Do you have any idea how dry the SW USA has been for how long?
    Any yet its population has continued to expand, dramatically.

    Fresh water availability - ultimately - is just an engineering challenge. If we, like the ancient Romans, want lots of people in places without lots of water, then we need to bring it in.

    And if that requires desalination, that requires desalination.
    Yeah last time I was out your way there were notices on all the restaurant tables saying Fuck off if you were hoping for a glass of water with your meal. How's that going now?

    Everything is just an engineering challenge. The thing is, look how long and how much money it takes to engineer a solution to one specific local problem like the Elizabeth Line or the M25, scale that up to a solution to a global problem, and think of the other global engineering solutions you need like decarbonising and a proper car charging network, and you realise it gets to costing 100x world GDP.
    Having plentiful reservoirs would be a good place to start, before we envisage anything more grandiose. At the moment we have flooding every Winter (cue climate alarm) followed by threats of drought every time there's more than a couple of days of sunshine. Can you not join the dots and conclude that if we stored a bit more of the abundantly available water, we could use it when it's less available?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Insane


    The weather in Polzeath for the next week is perfect. Cloudless skies, highs of 25. Annoyingly, I have done something painful to my back and almost any movement is tiring and painful. Had hoped to go stand up paddleboarding on Wednesday and will be very disappointed if I can't, not least for my daughters who have been looking forward to it for some time. Fingers crossed for some sort of recovery.
    Anyway, the beach at Polzeath: those who know it will know that it's perfection includes a stream which courses down the beach presenting opportunities for digging and damming. It is just too wide to leap; you have to take your socks and shoes off and ford it. We have been here every August since 2016 and done this. This year, the stream is a bare trickle six inches wife rather than six feet wide.
    Yes, my family down in Cornwall is celebrating the weather. Apart from My Aged Father, who says he yearns for "coolness and rain"

    It must be quite sunny if Cornish people are saying that

    Shame about your back. Perhaps a gentle walk? If you're in N Cornwall you could do Bedruthan Steps, which is properly magnificent - tho if you know the area you've probably done it already. I also recommend a jaunt to Morwenstow, in far north Cornwall. It gets seriously remote and magical up there... and would be glorious in fine sunshine
    Thanks, I've done neither of those things - will check them out.
    Who knows with backs? Hopefully a gentle walk will not be beyond me, and perhaps in a couple of days I'll be back out with my spade on the beach again.
    Hope the back improves

    Morwenstow is worth the detour even on a drizzly day. On a day of endless sun it will be sublime. And you won't have to walk far for brilliant views

    https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/morwenstow

    Look out for that hut where the mad parson smoked opium

    Bedruthan Steps is majestic. The kind of place where you think "how come I haven't heard of this". Watergate Bay is also pretty impressive

    Bedruthan Steps:


    Looking them up, it appears Bedruthan Steps are currently closed. One for another year. But Morwenstow looks spectacular.
    How do they close an entire stretch of coast?! I guess they mean you can't walk down to the beach. Why? Too dangerous? That's a shame, anyroad


    But yes do go to Morwenstow, but perhaps make it a day trip, the roads are often narrow and it gets increasingly remote (tho that of course is part of the appeal). There's lots to see en route: Tintagel, Boscastle etc

    The NT cafe at the top of Bedruthan Steps is one of their best, very simple, homely, best scones I have ever tasted.

    Plus the NT have put in a wheelchair accessible path from the cafe to the viewing point. How bloody woke is that! :-)

    Well worth a visit even if the steps down to the beach are off-limits.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    Having a shed load of oil and a load of public assets to flog didn't hurt, either, nor did access to the emerging European single market. Thatcher's macro policies were generally poor, hence her period in office being bookmarked by deep recessions and the economy undergoing an unprecedented rise in income inequality, although product market liberalisation was good. She certainly wasn't a moron, not that I think anyone called her that.
    The economic miracle of the 80s is a bit of a myth as far as I can see. It doesn't exactly leap out of the figures.
    Certainly was a Biblical event in Wigan.
    Not of the good kind.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Insane


    The weather in Polzeath for the next week is perfect. Cloudless skies, highs of 25. Annoyingly, I have done something painful to my back and almost any movement is tiring and painful. Had hoped to go stand up paddleboarding on Wednesday and will be very disappointed if I can't, not least for my daughters who have been looking forward to it for some time. Fingers crossed for some sort of recovery.
    Anyway, the beach at Polzeath: those who know it will know that it's perfection includes a stream which courses down the beach presenting opportunities for digging and damming. It is just too wide to leap; you have to take your socks and shoes off and ford it. We have been here every August since 2016 and done this. This year, the stream is a bare trickle six inches wife rather than six feet wide.
    Yes, my family down in Cornwall is celebrating the weather. Apart from My Aged Father, who says he yearns for "coolness and rain"

    It must be quite sunny if Cornish people are saying that

    Shame about your back. Perhaps a gentle walk? If you're in N Cornwall you could do Bedruthan Steps, which is properly magnificent - tho if you know the area you've probably done it already. I also recommend a jaunt to Morwenstow, in far north Cornwall. It gets seriously remote and magical up there... and would be glorious in fine sunshine
    Thanks, I've done neither of those things - will check them out.
    Who knows with backs? Hopefully a gentle walk will not be beyond me, and perhaps in a couple of days I'll be back out with my spade on the beach again.
    Hope the back improves

    Morwenstow is worth the detour even on a drizzly day. On a day of endless sun it will be sublime. And you won't have to walk far for brilliant views

    https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/morwenstow

    Look out for that hut where the mad parson smoked opium

    Bedruthan Steps is majestic. The kind of place where you think "how come I haven't heard of this". Watergate Bay is also pretty impressive

    Bedruthan Steps:


    Looking them up, it appears Bedruthan Steps are currently closed. One for another year. But Morwenstow looks spectacular.
    Looks very like the Algarve, between Albuferia and Alvor.
    Good comparison. Tho it is even more like the Costa Vicentina, north of the Algarve (between Sagres and Lisbon)

    Generally I would prefer Portugal, but that's only because of the climate. On a pure day of sunshine, Cornwall wins hands down thanks to pubs and caffs and fun, and prettier villages and lovely rivers etc

    The Costa Vicentina:


    I love cataplana, BBQed fish, pasta del natas, sangria and the laid back cafe culture of Portugal so it is a winner for me but if it gets just too hot...
    I love all those things too, but if Cornwall is sunny - and you know the right places to go (ie avoiding the worst of the crowds) - then it is superior, I'd say. A medieval pub by a Cornish river, a bowl of mussels in the sun, a glass of cold beer after a glorious clifftop walk, oh my word

    Southern Portugal is increasingly best in spring and autumn. The Costa Vicentina can be windy at any time. But in summer it's a hot hot wind

    Hot wind is a really unpleasant thing, and drives you mental
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    The season is 15 minutes old and we've already lost our best two players.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Insane


    The weather in Polzeath for the next week is perfect. Cloudless skies, highs of 25. Annoyingly, I have done something painful to my back and almost any movement is tiring and painful. Had hoped to go stand up paddleboarding on Wednesday and will be very disappointed if I can't, not least for my daughters who have been looking forward to it for some time. Fingers crossed for some sort of recovery.
    Anyway, the beach at Polzeath: those who know it will know that it's perfection includes a stream which courses down the beach presenting opportunities for digging and damming. It is just too wide to leap; you have to take your socks and shoes off and ford it. We have been here every August since 2016 and done this. This year, the stream is a bare trickle six inches wife rather than six feet wide.
    Yes, my family down in Cornwall is celebrating the weather. Apart from My Aged Father, who says he yearns for "coolness and rain"

    It must be quite sunny if Cornish people are saying that

    Shame about your back. Perhaps a gentle walk? If you're in N Cornwall you could do Bedruthan Steps, which is properly magnificent - tho if you know the area you've probably done it already. I also recommend a jaunt to Morwenstow, in far north Cornwall. It gets seriously remote and magical up there... and would be glorious in fine sunshine
    Thanks, I've done neither of those things - will check them out.
    Who knows with backs? Hopefully a gentle walk will not be beyond me, and perhaps in a couple of days I'll be back out with my spade on the beach again.
    Hope the back improves

    Morwenstow is worth the detour even on a drizzly day. On a day of endless sun it will be sublime. And you won't have to walk far for brilliant views

    https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/morwenstow

    Look out for that hut where the mad parson smoked opium

    Bedruthan Steps is majestic. The kind of place where you think "how come I haven't heard of this". Watergate Bay is also pretty impressive

    Bedruthan Steps:


    Looking them up, it appears Bedruthan Steps are currently closed. One for another year. But Morwenstow looks spectacular.
    Looks very like the Algarve, between Albuferia and Alvor.
    Good comparison. Tho it is even more like the Costa Vicentina, north of the Algarve (between Sagres and Lisbon)

    Generally I would prefer Portugal, but that's only because of the climate. On a pure day of sunshine, Cornwall wins hands down thanks to pubs and caffs and fun, and prettier villages and lovely rivers etc

    The Costa Vicentina:


    Tbf Bedruthan Steps knocks that view into a cocked hat.
    Yes, I agree. The Cornish coast is one of the most impressive in Europe
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,220
    edited August 2022

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    Elements of the Left are spooked by the Boris phenomenon. For them he was just the type of Tory who shouldn't be popular but, for whatever inexplicable reasons, was. But Truss doesn't possess that sort of magic. She's got the kind of face that would make you jump if you turned around at saw it beaming at you, and politically comes across as Boris's annoying younger sister.
    And, apart from when we thought he was going to die and one when it looked like the UK really did have a brilliant vaccine rollout, Boris's ratings have been mediocre and on an steadily downward trend;




    People think Boris is popular because he (and his people) tell them that Boris is popular. It's a good trick if you can pull it off.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747
    Blissful week in the West Country. Well done England.

    I also punched it on an empty country road to Mmmbop at ear bleed levels with the kids in the back. Life affirming moment. Well done Hanson.
  • stodge said:

    Late afternoon all :)

    ...The Lake District's future is as the "hill station" of England's Raj. It's the perfect antidote to the heat and bustle of the south - day temperatures last week around 20c and with night minima in the low teens very equitable and if I were marketing the region, I'd be selling it as the "Retreat from the Heat".

    Love this suggestion. To be fair though, most of Devon and Cornwall fared ok in heatmageddon: never got above 27C here in Torbay, about 19-20 overnight. Currently 21-25 during the day, 13-15 at night. Bliss. Adult children working in London are on a train back to Devon at every opportunity at the moment.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434
    IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    France drought: Parched towns left short of drinking water

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62436468

    USA: Half the country is in drought, and no region has been spared

    https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/04/weather/drought-map-northeast-texas-climate/index.html

    More than 75% of the world could face drought by 2050, UN report warns

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/05/drought-2050-un-report-climate-change/

    End Times. Seriously.

    I find these stories utterly ridiculous. Where do people think the water can go? If it goes up, it must come down.

    Mad greens (in line with EU policy) have been trying to stop new reservoirs being built for years precisely to stoke such ludicrous alarmism. If it's not drought, it's floods, with rivers that haven't been dredged for years (again, green blob) mysteriously bursting their banks.
    It could end up in the sea, salty and useless. The amount of fresh water in the world is collapsing with the ice sheets of Greenland and Antartica but much of the world that could rely on a steady flow from mountain tops is going to become more arid too. And of course there are far too many people.
    I don't agree that there are too many people - that is a deeply spurious shibboleth in my opinion. No other living thing shares that view of its own species. When we approach capacity in this planet (if that is possible) we will colonise space.

    The water in the sea still evaporates and falls again as rain. As for the ice sheets melting, that would add more water to the cycle, not take it away. We will perhaps revisit this conversation when facing the usual winter flooding alarm.
    Quality gibberish. No other living thing has a concept of its own species, let alone the ability to make value judgments about it. and aren't you usually on about how inorganic and empty modern food is? Because you would halve numbers automatically if you abolished non-rockdust fertilisers.

    The ridiculous stories aren't about what might in theory happen, they are about what is actually happening. Do you have any idea how dry the SW USA has been for how long?
    They have instinct - instinct to survive and thrive. All living things share it, with the exception of many humans who navel-gazed themselves into a state of being sorry for existing.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,642
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    Having a shed load of oil and a load of public assets to flog didn't hurt, either, nor did access to the emerging European single market. Thatcher's macro policies were generally poor, hence her period in office being bookmarked by deep recessions and the economy undergoing an unprecedented rise in income inequality, although product market liberalisation was good. She certainly wasn't a moron, not that I think anyone called her that.
    The economic miracle of the 80s is a bit of a myth as far as I can see. It doesn't exactly leap out of the figures.
    Structural changes take a long time to be measurable. The place to look for the economic miracle of the 80s is in the 'golden legacy' left to Gordon Brown.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    Elements of the Left are spooked by the Boris phenomenon. For them he was just the type of Tory who shouldn't be popular but, for whatever inexplicable reasons, was. But Truss doesn't possess that sort of magic. She's got the kind of face that would make you jump if you turned around at saw it beaming at you, and politically comes across as Boris's annoying younger sister.
    And, apart from when we thought he was going to die and one when it looked like the UK really did have a brilliant vaccine rollout, Boris's ratings have been mediocre and on an steadily downward trend;




    People think Boris is popular because he (and his people) tell them that Boris is popular. It's a good trick if you can pull it off.
    People think Boris popular because he's popular. He won two London mayoral elections, the biggest Tory majority in decades, and the Brexit referendum. Opinion polls are just polls, election and votes are what counts, and he has a consistent track record of winning those. So you're talking nonsense
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    Having a shed load of oil and a load of public assets to flog didn't hurt, either, nor did access to the emerging European single market. Thatcher's macro policies were generally poor, hence her period in office being bookmarked by deep recessions and the economy undergoing an unprecedented rise in income inequality, although product market liberalisation was good. She certainly wasn't a moron, not that I think anyone called her that.
    The economic miracle of the 80s is a bit of a myth as far as I can see. It doesn't exactly leap out of the figures.
    Structural changes take a long time to be measurable. The place to look for the economic miracle of the 80s is in the 'golden legacy' left to Gordon Brown.
    Wouldn't the place to look for it be under the sea off Scotland?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Insane


    The weather in Polzeath for the next week is perfect. Cloudless skies, highs of 25. Annoyingly, I have done something painful to my back and almost any movement is tiring and painful. Had hoped to go stand up paddleboarding on Wednesday and will be very disappointed if I can't, not least for my daughters who have been looking forward to it for some time. Fingers crossed for some sort of recovery.
    Anyway, the beach at Polzeath: those who know it will know that it's perfection includes a stream which courses down the beach presenting opportunities for digging and damming. It is just too wide to leap; you have to take your socks and shoes off and ford it. We have been here every August since 2016 and done this. This year, the stream is a bare trickle six inches wife rather than six feet wide.
    Yes, my family down in Cornwall is celebrating the weather. Apart from My Aged Father, who says he yearns for "coolness and rain"

    It must be quite sunny if Cornish people are saying that

    Shame about your back. Perhaps a gentle walk? If you're in N Cornwall you could do Bedruthan Steps, which is properly magnificent - tho if you know the area you've probably done it already. I also recommend a jaunt to Morwenstow, in far north Cornwall. It gets seriously remote and magical up there... and would be glorious in fine sunshine
    Thanks, I've done neither of those things - will check them out.
    Who knows with backs? Hopefully a gentle walk will not be beyond me, and perhaps in a couple of days I'll be back out with my spade on the beach again.
    Hope the back improves

    Morwenstow is worth the detour even on a drizzly day. On a day of endless sun it will be sublime. And you won't have to walk far for brilliant views

    https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/morwenstow

    Look out for that hut where the mad parson smoked opium

    Bedruthan Steps is majestic. The kind of place where you think "how come I haven't heard of this". Watergate Bay is also pretty impressive

    Bedruthan Steps:


    Looking them up, it appears Bedruthan Steps are currently closed. One for another year. But Morwenstow looks spectacular.
    Looks very like the Algarve, between Albuferia and Alvor.
    Good comparison. Tho it is even more like the Costa Vicentina, north of the Algarve (between Sagres and Lisbon)

    Generally I would prefer Portugal, but that's only because of the climate. On a pure day of sunshine, Cornwall wins hands down thanks to pubs and caffs and fun, and prettier villages and lovely rivers etc

    The Costa Vicentina:


    Tbf Bedruthan Steps knocks that view into a cocked hat.
    Yes, I agree. The Cornish coast is one of the most impressive in Europe
    We've never been to Brittany, how does it compare? I was thinking it might be like Cornwall but with better food*.

    (Ok, I know Cornwall has some culinary high spots but I mean general day-to-day food, the local market, quayside bistros etc.)
  • Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Insane


    The weather in Polzeath for the next week is perfect. Cloudless skies, highs of 25. Annoyingly, I have done something painful to my back and almost any movement is tiring and painful. Had hoped to go stand up paddleboarding on Wednesday and will be very disappointed if I can't, not least for my daughters who have been looking forward to it for some time. Fingers crossed for some sort of recovery.
    Anyway, the beach at Polzeath: those who know it will know that it's perfection includes a stream which courses down the beach presenting opportunities for digging and damming. It is just too wide to leap; you have to take your socks and shoes off and ford it. We have been here every August since 2016 and done this. This year, the stream is a bare trickle six inches wife rather than six feet wide.
    Yes, my family down in Cornwall is celebrating the weather. Apart from My Aged Father, who says he yearns for "coolness and rain"

    It must be quite sunny if Cornish people are saying that

    Shame about your back. Perhaps a gentle walk? If you're in N Cornwall you could do Bedruthan Steps, which is properly magnificent - tho if you know the area you've probably done it already. I also recommend a jaunt to Morwenstow, in far north Cornwall. It gets seriously remote and magical up there... and would be glorious in fine sunshine
    Thanks, I've done neither of those things - will check them out.
    Who knows with backs? Hopefully a gentle walk will not be beyond me, and perhaps in a couple of days I'll be back out with my spade on the beach again.
    Hope the back improves

    Morwenstow is worth the detour even on a drizzly day. On a day of endless sun it will be sublime. And you won't have to walk far for brilliant views

    https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/morwenstow

    Look out for that hut where the mad parson smoked opium

    Bedruthan Steps is majestic. The kind of place where you think "how come I haven't heard of this". Watergate Bay is also pretty impressive

    Bedruthan Steps:


    Looking them up, it appears Bedruthan Steps are currently closed. One for another year. But Morwenstow looks spectacular.
    How do they close an entire stretch of coast?! I guess they mean you can't walk down to the beach. Why? Too dangerous? That's a shame, anyroad


    But yes do go to Morwenstow, but perhaps make it a day trip, the roads are often narrow and it gets increasingly remote (tho that of course is part of the appeal). There's lots to see en route: Tintagel, Boscastle etc
    Steps to the beach shut by rockfall.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    France drought: Parched towns left short of drinking water

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62436468

    USA: Half the country is in drought, and no region has been spared

    https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/04/weather/drought-map-northeast-texas-climate/index.html

    More than 75% of the world could face drought by 2050, UN report warns

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/05/drought-2050-un-report-climate-change/

    End Times. Seriously.

    I find these stories utterly ridiculous. Where do people think the water can go? If it goes up, it must come down.

    Mad greens (in line with EU policy) have been trying to stop new reservoirs being built for years precisely to stoke such ludicrous alarmism. If it's not drought, it's floods, with rivers that haven't been dredged for years (again, green blob) mysteriously bursting their banks.
    It could end up in the sea, salty and useless. The amount of fresh water in the world is collapsing with the ice sheets of Greenland and Antartica but much of the world that could rely on a steady flow from mountain tops is going to become more arid too. And of course there are far too many people.
    I don't agree that there are too many people - that is a deeply spurious shibboleth in my opinion. No other living thing shares that view of its own species. When we approach capacity in this planet (if that is possible) we will colonise space.

    The water in the sea still evaporates and falls again as rain. As for the ice sheets melting, that would add more water to the cycle, not take it away. We will perhaps revisit this conversation when facing the usual winter flooding alarm.
    Quality gibberish. No other living thing has a concept of its own species, let alone the ability to make value judgments about it. and aren't you usually on about how inorganic and empty modern food is? Because you would halve numbers automatically if you abolished non-rockdust fertilisers.

    The ridiculous stories aren't about what might in theory happen, they are about what is actually happening. Do you have any idea how dry the SW USA has been for how long?
    Any yet its population has continued to expand, dramatically.

    Fresh water availability - ultimately - is just an engineering challenge. If we, like the ancient Romans, want lots of people in places without lots of water, then we need to bring it in.

    And if that requires desalination, that requires desalination.
    Yeah last time I was out your way there were notices on all the restaurant tables saying Fuck off if you were hoping for a glass of water with your meal. How's that going now?

    Everything is just an engineering challenge. The thing is, look how long and how much money it takes to engineer a solution to one specific local problem like the Elizabeth Line or the M25, scale that up to a solution to a global problem, and think of the other global engineering solutions you need like decarbonising and a proper car charging network, and you realise it gets to costing 100x world GDP.
    Having plentiful reservoirs would be a good place to start, before we envisage anything more grandiose. At the moment we have flooding every Winter (cue climate alarm) followed by threats of drought every time there's more than a couple of days of sunshine. Can you not join the dots and conclude that if we stored a bit more of the abundantly available water, we could use it when it's less available?
    Not particularly disagreeing, but I don't think that helps California.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    Elements of the Left are spooked by the Boris phenomenon. For them he was just the type of Tory who shouldn't be popular but, for whatever inexplicable reasons, was. But Truss doesn't possess that sort of magic. She's got the kind of face that would make you jump if you turned around at saw it beaming at you, and politically comes across as Boris's annoying younger sister.
    And, apart from when we thought he was going to die and one when it looked like the UK really did have a brilliant vaccine rollout, Boris's ratings have been mediocre and on an steadily downward trend;




    People think Boris is popular because he (and his people) tell them that Boris is popular. It's a good trick if you can pull it off.
    People think Boris popular because he's popular. He won two London mayoral elections, the biggest Tory majority in decades, and the Brexit referendum. Opinion polls are just polls, election and votes are what counts, and he has a consistent track record of winning those. So you're talking nonsense
    He's so popular, he's had to resign in the middle of a government with a majority of 80.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    Elements of the Left are spooked by the Boris phenomenon. For them he was just the type of Tory who shouldn't be popular but, for whatever inexplicable reasons, was. But Truss doesn't possess that sort of magic. She's got the kind of face that would make you jump if you turned around at saw it beaming at you, and politically comes across as Boris's annoying younger sister.
    And, apart from when we thought he was going to die and one when it looked like the UK really did have a brilliant vaccine rollout, Boris's ratings have been mediocre and on an steadily downward trend;




    People think Boris is popular because he (and his people) tell them that Boris is popular. It's a good trick if you can pull it off.
    That chart tells me that almost all PM's have a very short honeymoon. Then become unpopular pretty quickly.
    Apart from Blair, that is.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434
    Pulpstar said:

    Cookie said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I don't agree that there are too many people - that is a deeply spurious shibboleth in my opinion. No other living thing shares that view of its own species. When we approach capacity in this planet (if that is possible) we will colonise space.

    The water in the sea still evaporates and falls again as rain. As for the ice sheets melting, that would add more water to the cycle, not take it away. We will perhaps revisit this conversation when facing the usual winter flooding alarm.

    The earth could easily support 50 or 100 bn people, and quite possibly a lot more, albeit there would need to be some fairly substantial lifestyle changes to achieve this.

    With that said, given reproduction is now in the easy control of humans (almost anywhere), birth rates have absolutely collapsed.

    So the likelihood of the world population exploding (or even growing particularly quickly), seems pretty remote.

    ISTR something posted a few years back (possibly by you) showing the world has already reached peak child. There will never be more children in the world than there are now. There will be more people, as that peak moves up the age ranges, but it will stabilise at around 11bn, before gently declining.
    Now 11bn is not without its challenges; and nor is a population decline. But I am moderately optimistic about our ability to meet those challenges.
    Median world household income is about $10,000. your optimism has to include optimism that the poor are going to be happy staying poor, because in terms of resource consumtion bringing them all up to the living standards of very very poor westerners is equivalent to doubling (at a guess) the population.
    I'm also genuinely optimistic that the future will see the average individual have a better standard of living while consuming less.
    Less proper meat. Through wind, solar and batteries there's no need to drop anyones standard of living long term
    Everyone should have meat. And livestock are a valid part of good rotational farming and stewardship of the land.
  • Speaking of structural issues, this thread claims that European rail electrification costs 30% of what it does in the UK.

    https://twitter.com/garethdennis/status/1555520222106378240?s=21&t=aQQi4z2sSzK7BnF1bmyNNw

    Getting to grips with this stuff is the kind of deeply tedious effort that we haven’t seen for quite a while now.

    That is a combination of factors:
    1. Planning isn't something we do with confidence. Even sticking piles in the ground for masts takes enquiries - what if there are badgers nesting etc?
    2. The privatisation structure makes everything vastly more expensive. Contracts piled on contracts, all with profit margins and baked-in risk mitigation
    3. The DfT are fucking useless.

    It can be fixed - RailCo. Owned by the government but run commercially, with a mandate to wire as much of the network as possible...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,962
    edited August 2022

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    Having a shed load of oil and a load of public assets to flog didn't hurt, either, nor did access to the emerging European single market. Thatcher's macro policies were generally poor, hence her period in office being bookmarked by deep recessions and the economy undergoing an unprecedented rise in income inequality, although product market liberalisation was good. She certainly wasn't a moron, not that I think anyone called her that.
    The economic miracle of the 80s is a bit of a myth as far as I can see. It doesn't exactly leap out of the figures.
    Structural changes take a long time to be measurable. The place to look for the economic miracle of the 80s is in the 'golden legacy' left to Gordon Brown.
    Any hints on the structural changes and golden legacy that the last 12 years of Tory government might have engendered?
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    Not really. Unemployment stayed above 10 per cent for the next five years.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,155
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    I'm afraid she did, yes, in a radio interview. Rather than the fairyland but not quite false "tax cuts will grow the economy and head off a recession and leave more money in people's pockets to help them cope with the cost of living crisis", she said that her unfunded tax cuts would not feed inflation but "reduce it".

    Still, could have been tired, or not concentrating, or - my betting fav - could have been aware she was talking tosh but doing it for the votes. Anyway of course she's not a literal moron - that's just people talking in casual derogatory fashion about her. What they mean is "not that bright for somebody about to be PM."
    I think her argument is that her targeted taxes of Green levies and VAT on fuel are both driving up the price of fuel which is driving up the price of everything else so cutting those taxes will have a direct effect on the measured inflation rate, even if it increases the quantity of money in the economy. I think in the short term it is not necessarily wrong.
    Well ok but does bending your knees decrease your height or just make you look shorter?
  • I am open to the emerging Truss is a political colossus view among PB Tories. As an empiricist, I view every hypothesis as worthy of testing. But one question - if she is such a brilliant politician, why have Tory MPs, who know her best, been reluctant to embrace her (until she became the favourite)? Recall that Thatcher 1.0 was chosen by her fellow MPs.

    MPs elected Mrs Thatcher by mistake. Her team, led by Airey Neave, assured MPs that Thatcher could not win, and urged them to vote for her to send a message to Ted Heath. This was the first in a series of balls-ups by the self-styled most sophisticated electorate in the world.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,946
    edited August 2022
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    Elements of the Left are spooked by the Boris phenomenon. For them he was just the type of Tory who shouldn't be popular but, for whatever inexplicable reasons, was. But Truss doesn't possess that sort of magic. She's got the kind of face that would make you jump if you turned around at saw it beaming at you, and politically comes across as Boris's annoying younger sister.
    And, apart from when we thought he was going to die and one when it looked like the UK really did have a brilliant vaccine rollout, Boris's ratings have been mediocre and on an steadily downward trend;




    People think Boris is popular because he (and his people) tell them that Boris is popular. It's a good trick if you can pull it off.
    People think Boris popular because he's popular. He won two London mayoral elections, the biggest Tory majority in decades, and the Brexit referendum. Opinion polls are just polls, election and votes are what counts, and he has a consistent track record of winning those. So you're talking nonsense
    Boris' final rating as PM will also be higher on that chart than any other of those PMs apart from Cameron
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Insane


    The weather in Polzeath for the next week is perfect. Cloudless skies, highs of 25. Annoyingly, I have done something painful to my back and almost any movement is tiring and painful. Had hoped to go stand up paddleboarding on Wednesday and will be very disappointed if I can't, not least for my daughters who have been looking forward to it for some time. Fingers crossed for some sort of recovery.
    Anyway, the beach at Polzeath: those who know it will know that it's perfection includes a stream which courses down the beach presenting opportunities for digging and damming. It is just too wide to leap; you have to take your socks and shoes off and ford it. We have been here every August since 2016 and done this. This year, the stream is a bare trickle six inches wife rather than six feet wide.
    Yes, my family down in Cornwall is celebrating the weather. Apart from My Aged Father, who says he yearns for "coolness and rain"

    It must be quite sunny if Cornish people are saying that

    Shame about your back. Perhaps a gentle walk? If you're in N Cornwall you could do Bedruthan Steps, which is properly magnificent - tho if you know the area you've probably done it already. I also recommend a jaunt to Morwenstow, in far north Cornwall. It gets seriously remote and magical up there... and would be glorious in fine sunshine
    Thanks, I've done neither of those things - will check them out.
    Who knows with backs? Hopefully a gentle walk will not be beyond me, and perhaps in a couple of days I'll be back out with my spade on the beach again.
    Hope the back improves

    Morwenstow is worth the detour even on a drizzly day. On a day of endless sun it will be sublime. And you won't have to walk far for brilliant views

    https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/morwenstow

    Look out for that hut where the mad parson smoked opium

    Bedruthan Steps is majestic. The kind of place where you think "how come I haven't heard of this". Watergate Bay is also pretty impressive

    Bedruthan Steps:


    Looking them up, it appears Bedruthan Steps are currently closed. One for another year. But Morwenstow looks spectacular.
    Looks very like the Algarve, between Albuferia and Alvor.
    Good comparison. Tho it is even more like the Costa Vicentina, north of the Algarve (between Sagres and Lisbon)

    Generally I would prefer Portugal, but that's only because of the climate. On a pure day of sunshine, Cornwall wins hands down thanks to pubs and caffs and fun, and prettier villages and lovely rivers etc

    The Costa Vicentina:


    Tbf Bedruthan Steps knocks that view into a cocked hat.
    Yes, I agree. The Cornish coast is one of the most impressive in Europe
    We've never been to Brittany, how does it compare? I was thinking it might be like Cornwall but with better food*.

    (Ok, I know Cornwall has some culinary high spots but I mean general day-to-day food, the local market, quayside bistros etc.)
    Brittany is really nice, but not as "cute" as Cornwall. If you know what I mean. Something about Cornwall's small size and intricate landscape makes it especially adorable, on a good day (if you can avoid the tourists and escape/ignore the tat)

    Brittany is bigger and grander but often less compelling. A good example is Carnac, which is a French megalithic site of stupendous size, yet somehow has less emotional impact than a tiny stone circle by the Cornish sea. Horses for courses, of course

    The food gap still exists but narrows every year. Brittany is better for seafood. You will get more variety in Cornwall (eg good Thai food)

    I've heard that the islands off Brittany are wonderful (not been). But so are the Scillies

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    Having a shed load of oil and a load of public assets to flog didn't hurt, either, nor did access to the emerging European single market. Thatcher's macro policies were generally poor, hence her period in office being bookmarked by deep recessions and the economy undergoing an unprecedented rise in income inequality, although product market liberalisation was good. She certainly wasn't a moron, not that I think anyone called her that.
    The economic miracle of the 80s is a bit of a myth as far as I can see. It doesn't exactly leap out of the figures.
    Structural changes take a long time to be measurable. The place to look for the economic miracle of the 80s is in the 'golden legacy' left to Gordon Brown.
    Or look at the British economy right now, completely in the shit. High rates of poverty, poor productivity growth, glaring regional inequalities, a lack of competitiveness, unaffordable housing, all have their roots in the 1980s, or are more deep rooted problems that the Thatcher "miracle" failed to solve. The only thing you can't blame her for is Brexit, she created the single market and would never have been daft enough to leave it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    Having a shed load of oil and a load of public assets to flog didn't hurt, either, nor did access to the emerging European single market. Thatcher's macro policies were generally poor, hence her period in office being bookmarked by deep recessions and the economy undergoing an unprecedented rise in income inequality, although product market liberalisation was good. She certainly wasn't a moron, not that I think anyone called her that.
    The economic miracle of the 80s is a bit of a myth as far as I can see. It doesn't exactly leap out of the figures.
    Structural changes take a long time to be measurable. The place to look for the economic miracle of the 80s is in the 'golden legacy' left to Gordon Brown.
    Exactly so
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,946
    edited August 2022
    Cookie said:

    I am open to the emerging Truss is a political colossus view among PB Tories. As an empiricist, I view every hypothesis as worthy of testing. But one question - if she is such a brilliant politician, why have Tory MPs, who know her best, been reluctant to embrace her (until she became the favourite)? Recall that Thatcher 1.0 was chosen by her fellow MPs.

    Rather suspect that if it had been left to MPs she would still have emerged the winner.
    I don't recall David Cameron getting the overwhelming support of MPs in early rounds.
    Cameron got 45% of MPs behind him in the final MPs round in 2005, Sunak got 38% and Truss 32% last month
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434

    I am open to the emerging Truss is a political colossus view among PB Tories. As an empiricist, I view every hypothesis as worthy of testing. But one question - if she is such a brilliant politician, why have Tory MPs, who know her best, been reluctant to embrace her (until she became the favourite)? Recall that Thatcher 1.0 was chosen by her fellow MPs.

    MPs elected Mrs Thatcher by mistake. Her team, led by Airey Neave, assured MPs that Thatcher could not win, and urged them to vote for her to send a message to Ted Heath. This was the first in a series of balls-ups by the self-styled most sophisticated electorate in the world.
    Exactly. And they said she's a woman; it will look awful if she gets no votes. Crafty.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    France drought: Parched towns left short of drinking water

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62436468

    USA: Half the country is in drought, and no region has been spared

    https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/04/weather/drought-map-northeast-texas-climate/index.html

    More than 75% of the world could face drought by 2050, UN report warns

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/05/drought-2050-un-report-climate-change/

    End Times. Seriously.

    I find these stories utterly ridiculous. Where do people think the water can go? If it goes up, it must come down.

    Mad greens (in line with EU policy) have been trying to stop new reservoirs being built for years precisely to stoke such ludicrous alarmism. If it's not drought, it's floods, with rivers that haven't been dredged for years (again, green blob) mysteriously bursting their banks.
    It could end up in the sea, salty and useless. The amount of fresh water in the world is collapsing with the ice sheets of Greenland and Antartica but much of the world that could rely on a steady flow from mountain tops is going to become more arid too. And of course there are far too many people.
    I don't agree that there are too many people - that is a deeply spurious shibboleth in my opinion. No other living thing shares that view of its own species. When we approach capacity in this planet (if that is possible) we will colonise space.

    The water in the sea still evaporates and falls again as rain. As for the ice sheets melting, that would add more water to the cycle, not take it away. We will perhaps revisit this conversation when facing the usual winter flooding alarm.
    Quality gibberish. No other living thing has a concept of its own species, let alone the ability to make value judgments about it. and aren't you usually on about how inorganic and empty modern food is? Because you would halve numbers automatically if you abolished non-rockdust fertilisers.

    The ridiculous stories aren't about what might in theory happen, they are about what is actually happening. Do you have any idea how dry the SW USA has been for how long?
    Any yet its population has continued to expand, dramatically.

    Fresh water availability - ultimately - is just an engineering challenge. If we, like the ancient Romans, want lots of people in places without lots of water, then we need to bring it in.

    And if that requires desalination, that requires desalination.
    Yeah last time I was out your way there were notices on all the restaurant tables saying Fuck off if you were hoping for a glass of water with your meal. How's that going now?

    Everything is just an engineering challenge. The thing is, look how long and how much money it takes to engineer a solution to one specific local problem like the Elizabeth Line or the M25, scale that up to a solution to a global problem, and think of the other global engineering solutions you need like decarbonising and a proper car charging network, and you realise it gets to costing 100x world GDP.
    Having plentiful reservoirs would be a good place to start, before we envisage anything more grandiose. At the moment we have flooding every Winter (cue climate alarm) followed by threats of drought every time there's more than a couple of days of sunshine. Can you not join the dots and conclude that if we stored a bit more of the abundantly available water, we could use it when it's less available?
    Not particularly disagreeing, but I don't think that helps California.
    Well I don't know anything about California, so I can't comment.

    *doesn't stop you usually etc.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,155

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    Having a shed load of oil and a load of public assets to flog didn't hurt, either, nor did access to the emerging European single market. Thatcher's macro policies were generally poor, hence her period in office being bookmarked by deep recessions and the economy undergoing an unprecedented rise in income inequality, although product market liberalisation was good. She certainly wasn't a moron, not that I think anyone called her that.
    The economic miracle of the 80s is a bit of a myth as far as I can see. It doesn't exactly leap out of the figures.
    Structural changes take a long time to be measurable. The place to look for the economic miracle of the 80s is in the 'golden legacy' left to Gordon Brown.
    Mmm, bit like Brexit. We'll be rocking (!) come the middle of the century.

    Although that golden legacy did tbf include a run down public realm - devoid of assets to sell - which needed more than a lick of paint to bring it up to scratch.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,802

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Insane


    The weather in Polzeath for the next week is perfect. Cloudless skies, highs of 25. Annoyingly, I have done something painful to my back and almost any movement is tiring and painful. Had hoped to go stand up paddleboarding on Wednesday and will be very disappointed if I can't, not least for my daughters who have been looking forward to it for some time. Fingers crossed for some sort of recovery.
    Anyway, the beach at Polzeath: those who know it will know that it's perfection includes a stream which courses down the beach presenting opportunities for digging and damming. It is just too wide to leap; you have to take your socks and shoes off and ford it. We have been here every August since 2016 and done this. This year, the stream is a bare trickle six inches wife rather than six feet wide.
    Yes, my family down in Cornwall is celebrating the weather. Apart from My Aged Father, who says he yearns for "coolness and rain"

    It must be quite sunny if Cornish people are saying that

    Shame about your back. Perhaps a gentle walk? If you're in N Cornwall you could do Bedruthan Steps, which is properly magnificent - tho if you know the area you've probably done it already. I also recommend a jaunt to Morwenstow, in far north Cornwall. It gets seriously remote and magical up there... and would be glorious in fine sunshine
    Thanks, I've done neither of those things - will check them out.
    Who knows with backs? Hopefully a gentle walk will not be beyond me, and perhaps in a couple of days I'll be back out with my spade on the beach again.
    Hope the back improves

    Morwenstow is worth the detour even on a drizzly day. On a day of endless sun it will be sublime. And you won't have to walk far for brilliant views

    https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/morwenstow

    Look out for that hut where the mad parson smoked opium

    Bedruthan Steps is majestic. The kind of place where you think "how come I haven't heard of this". Watergate Bay is also pretty impressive

    Bedruthan Steps:


    Looking them up, it appears Bedruthan Steps are currently closed. One for another year. But Morwenstow looks spectacular.
    Looks very like the Algarve, between Albuferia and Alvor.
    Good comparison. Tho it is even more like the Costa Vicentina, north of the Algarve (between Sagres and Lisbon)

    Generally I would prefer Portugal, but that's only because of the climate. On a pure day of sunshine, Cornwall wins hands down thanks to pubs and caffs and fun, and prettier villages and lovely rivers etc

    The Costa Vicentina:


    Tbf Bedruthan Steps knocks that view into a cocked hat.
    Yes, I agree. The Cornish coast is one of the most impressive in Europe
    We've never been to Brittany, how does it compare? I was thinking it might be like Cornwall but with better food*.

    (Ok, I know Cornwall has some culinary high spots but I mean general day-to-day food, the local market, quayside bistros etc.)
    To my eye Cornwall is substantially prettier. And while Brittany does a very good pancake-based meal in every single tiny settlement, Cornish food is also very good and seems more varied.
    If you were to drop me at random somewhere in either Brittany or Cornwall, I would be more confident of getting a 7/10 enjoyably tasty meal in Brittany, but more confident of getting something 9/10 or above in Cornwall.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    Having a shed load of oil and a load of public assets to flog didn't hurt, either, nor did access to the emerging European single market. Thatcher's macro policies were generally poor, hence her period in office being bookmarked by deep recessions and the economy undergoing an unprecedented rise in income inequality, although product market liberalisation was good. She certainly wasn't a moron, not that I think anyone called her that.
    The economic miracle of the 80s is a bit of a myth as far as I can see. It doesn't exactly leap out of the figures.
    Structural changes take a long time to be measurable. The place to look for the economic miracle of the 80s is in the 'golden legacy' left to Gordon Brown.
    Or look at the British economy right now, completely in the shit. High rates of poverty, poor productivity growth, glaring regional inequalities, a lack of competitiveness, unaffordable housing, all have their roots in the 1980s, or are more deep rooted problems that the Thatcher "miracle" failed to solve. The only thing you can't blame her for is Brexit, she created the single market and would never have been daft enough to leave it.
    With the benefit of hindsight, we should never have entered it. But we are where we are.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    edited August 2022

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    Having a shed load of oil and a load of public assets to flog didn't hurt, either, nor did access to the emerging European single market. Thatcher's macro policies were generally poor, hence her period in office being bookmarked by deep recessions and the economy undergoing an unprecedented rise in income inequality, although product market liberalisation was good. She certainly wasn't a moron, not that I think anyone called her that.
    The economic miracle of the 80s is a bit of a myth as far as I can see. It doesn't exactly leap out of the figures.
    Structural changes take a long time to be measurable. The place to look for the economic miracle of the 80s is in the 'golden legacy' left to Gordon Brown.
    Or look at the British economy right now, completely in the shit. High rates of poverty, poor productivity growth, glaring regional inequalities, a lack of competitiveness, unaffordable housing, all have their roots in the 1980s, or are more deep rooted problems that the Thatcher "miracle" failed to solve. The only thing you can't blame her for is Brexit, she created the single market and would never have been daft enough to leave it.
    I mean, this is simply absurd

    You've just had an excellent holiday in Cornwall. I am staring out at London partying in the sunshine. Everyone carrying their picnics to Primrose Hill and Regent's Park

    Does this look like an economy "completely in the shit"?

    No, it does not. For an economy "completely in the shit" check out Ukraine, or Sri Lanka. They are really "in the shit"

    Yes we have dire warnings from the Bank of England, but they are just that, Dire warnings. They might easily be wrong. And even if they are right we are looking at a long boring recession, not a war and a Depression. it is said unemployment might rise to 6%. OMFG
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    France drought: Parched towns left short of drinking water

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62436468

    USA: Half the country is in drought, and no region has been spared

    https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/04/weather/drought-map-northeast-texas-climate/index.html

    More than 75% of the world could face drought by 2050, UN report warns

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/05/drought-2050-un-report-climate-change/

    End Times. Seriously.

    I find these stories utterly ridiculous. Where do people think the water can go? If it goes up, it must come down.

    Mad greens (in line with EU policy) have been trying to stop new reservoirs being built for years precisely to stoke such ludicrous alarmism. If it's not drought, it's floods, with rivers that haven't been dredged for years (again, green blob) mysteriously bursting their banks.
    It could end up in the sea, salty and useless. The amount of fresh water in the world is collapsing with the ice sheets of Greenland and Antartica but much of the world that could rely on a steady flow from mountain tops is going to become more arid too. And of course there are far too many people.
    I don't agree that there are too many people - that is a deeply spurious shibboleth in my opinion. No other living thing shares that view of its own species. When we approach capacity in this planet (if that is possible) we will colonise space.

    The water in the sea still evaporates and falls again as rain. As for the ice sheets melting, that would add more water to the cycle, not take it away. We will perhaps revisit this conversation when facing the usual winter flooding alarm.
    Quality gibberish. No other living thing has a concept of its own species, let alone the ability to make value judgments about it. and aren't you usually on about how inorganic and empty modern food is? Because you would halve numbers automatically if you abolished non-rockdust fertilisers.

    The ridiculous stories aren't about what might in theory happen, they are about what is actually happening. Do you have any idea how dry the SW USA has been for how long?
    Any yet its population has continued to expand, dramatically.

    Fresh water availability - ultimately - is just an engineering challenge. If we, like the ancient Romans, want lots of people in places without lots of water, then we need to bring it in.

    And if that requires desalination, that requires desalination.
    Yeah last time I was out your way there were notices on all the restaurant tables saying Fuck off if you were hoping for a glass of water with your meal. How's that going now?

    Everything is just an engineering challenge. The thing is, look how long and how much money it takes to engineer a solution to one specific local problem like the Elizabeth Line or the M25, scale that up to a solution to a global problem, and think of the other global engineering solutions you need like decarbonising and a proper car charging network, and you realise it gets to costing 100x world GDP.
    Having plentiful reservoirs would be a good place to start, before we envisage anything more grandiose. At the moment we have flooding every Winter (cue climate alarm) followed by threats of drought every time there's more than a couple of days of sunshine. Can you not join the dots and conclude that if we stored a bit more of the abundantly available water, we could use it when it's less available?
    Not particularly disagreeing, but I don't think that helps California.
    Well I don't know anything about California, so I can't comment.

    *doesn't stop you usually etc.
    It's not getting flooded every winter

    More generally Build more reservoirs is a more obvious solution to Our reservoirs are brim full but still we run out of water than it is to existing reservoirs just not filling up in the first place.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Insane


    The weather in Polzeath for the next week is perfect. Cloudless skies, highs of 25. Annoyingly, I have done something painful to my back and almost any movement is tiring and painful. Had hoped to go stand up paddleboarding on Wednesday and will be very disappointed if I can't, not least for my daughters who have been looking forward to it for some time. Fingers crossed for some sort of recovery.
    Anyway, the beach at Polzeath: those who know it will know that it's perfection includes a stream which courses down the beach presenting opportunities for digging and damming. It is just too wide to leap; you have to take your socks and shoes off and ford it. We have been here every August since 2016 and done this. This year, the stream is a bare trickle six inches wife rather than six feet wide.
    Yes, my family down in Cornwall is celebrating the weather. Apart from My Aged Father, who says he yearns for "coolness and rain"

    It must be quite sunny if Cornish people are saying that

    Shame about your back. Perhaps a gentle walk? If you're in N Cornwall you could do Bedruthan Steps, which is properly magnificent - tho if you know the area you've probably done it already. I also recommend a jaunt to Morwenstow, in far north Cornwall. It gets seriously remote and magical up there... and would be glorious in fine sunshine
    Thanks, I've done neither of those things - will check them out.
    Who knows with backs? Hopefully a gentle walk will not be beyond me, and perhaps in a couple of days I'll be back out with my spade on the beach again.
    Hope the back improves

    Morwenstow is worth the detour even on a drizzly day. On a day of endless sun it will be sublime. And you won't have to walk far for brilliant views

    https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/morwenstow

    Look out for that hut where the mad parson smoked opium

    Bedruthan Steps is majestic. The kind of place where you think "how come I haven't heard of this". Watergate Bay is also pretty impressive

    Bedruthan Steps:


    Looking them up, it appears Bedruthan Steps are currently closed. One for another year. But Morwenstow looks spectacular.
    Looks very like the Algarve, between Albuferia and Alvor.
    Good comparison. Tho it is even more like the Costa Vicentina, north of the Algarve (between Sagres and Lisbon)

    Generally I would prefer Portugal, but that's only because of the climate. On a pure day of sunshine, Cornwall wins hands down thanks to pubs and caffs and fun, and prettier villages and lovely rivers etc

    The Costa Vicentina:


    Tbf Bedruthan Steps knocks that view into a cocked hat.
    Yes, I agree. The Cornish coast is one of the most impressive in Europe
    We've never been to Brittany, how does it compare? I was thinking it might be like Cornwall but with better food*.

    (Ok, I know Cornwall has some culinary high spots but I mean general day-to-day food, the local market, quayside bistros etc.)
    To my eye Cornwall is substantially prettier. And while Brittany does a very good pancake-based meal in every single tiny settlement, Cornish food is also very good and seems more varied.
    If you were to drop me at random somewhere in either Brittany or Cornwall, I would be more confident of getting a 7/10 enjoyably tasty meal in Brittany, but more confident of getting something 9/10 or above in Cornwall.
    Yes, that's 100% right
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,447
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    Having a shed load of oil and a load of public assets to flog didn't hurt, either, nor did access to the emerging European single market. Thatcher's macro policies were generally poor, hence her period in office being bookmarked by deep recessions and the economy undergoing an unprecedented rise in income inequality, although product market liberalisation was good. She certainly wasn't a moron, not that I think anyone called her that.
    The economic miracle of the 80s is a bit of a myth as far as I can see. It doesn't exactly leap out of the figures.
    It's not a myth: Thatcher successfully turned a failing manufacturing economy into a booming services one, aided and abetted by a boon from North Sea oil.

    Of course, there were winners and losers from that but there's no doubt the country got much wealthier: just compare the standard of living of anyone in 1978 with 1991.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,155
    Nigelb said:

    Texas’s Lt. Governor has an original view of the US Constitution.

    “We’re a nation founded upon not the words of our founders, but the words of God because he wrote the Constitution. . . . We were a Christian state and lost that for many years.”
    https://twitter.com/steve_vladeck/status/1555867032855379968

    So it was GOD who considered the right of citizens to keep and bear arms to be necessary for the security of a free state?

    End of debate if so.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,447

    Pulpstar said:

    Cookie said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I don't agree that there are too many people - that is a deeply spurious shibboleth in my opinion. No other living thing shares that view of its own species. When we approach capacity in this planet (if that is possible) we will colonise space.

    The water in the sea still evaporates and falls again as rain. As for the ice sheets melting, that would add more water to the cycle, not take it away. We will perhaps revisit this conversation when facing the usual winter flooding alarm.

    The earth could easily support 50 or 100 bn people, and quite possibly a lot more, albeit there would need to be some fairly substantial lifestyle changes to achieve this.

    With that said, given reproduction is now in the easy control of humans (almost anywhere), birth rates have absolutely collapsed.

    So the likelihood of the world population exploding (or even growing particularly quickly), seems pretty remote.

    ISTR something posted a few years back (possibly by you) showing the world has already reached peak child. There will never be more children in the world than there are now. There will be more people, as that peak moves up the age ranges, but it will stabilise at around 11bn, before gently declining.
    Now 11bn is not without its challenges; and nor is a population decline. But I am moderately optimistic about our ability to meet those challenges.
    Median world household income is about $10,000. your optimism has to include optimism that the poor are going to be happy staying poor, because in terms of resource consumtion bringing them all up to the living standards of very very poor westerners is equivalent to doubling (at a guess) the population.
    I'm also genuinely optimistic that the future will see the average individual have a better standard of living while consuming less.
    Less proper meat. Through wind, solar and batteries there's no need to drop anyones standard of living long term
    Everyone should have meat. And livestock are a valid part of good rotational farming and stewardship of the land.
    I will do virtually everything and anything else but meat is the one thing I won't compromise on (as my profile suggests).

    I think its climate "impact" is massively exaggerated, usually by those with other ideological PETA agendas, and no-one should be taken in by it. The only bit I can agree with is that clearing rainforest for beef grazing is stupid.

    Fundamentally, we have a problem because we burn billions of tons of fossil fuels each year; not because a few cows are farting.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    Having a shed load of oil and a load of public assets to flog didn't hurt, either, nor did access to the emerging European single market. Thatcher's macro policies were generally poor, hence her period in office being bookmarked by deep recessions and the economy undergoing an unprecedented rise in income inequality, although product market liberalisation was good. She certainly wasn't a moron, not that I think anyone called her that.
    The economic miracle of the 80s is a bit of a myth as far as I can see. It doesn't exactly leap out of the figures.
    It's not a myth: Thatcher successfully turned a failing manufacturing economy into a booming services one, aided and abetted by a boon from North Sea oil.

    Of course, there were winners and losers from that but there's no doubt the country got much wealthier: just compare the standard of living of anyone in 1978 with 1991.
    The failure of the left to admit -even now - that Thatcher was the pivotal figure in transforming the post-war UK economy for the better is an enduring indication of their persistent stupidity. They are too childish to confess the truth. The day they do, will be a day to celebrate. I have not got champagne on ice

    No one outside the UK disputes what Thatcher did, and how she improved the UK. She is a revered figure for many. Even the Argentinians afford her a grudging, sullen respect - I know this, because I have asked them
  • Pulpstar said:

    Cookie said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I don't agree that there are too many people - that is a deeply spurious shibboleth in my opinion. No other living thing shares that view of its own species. When we approach capacity in this planet (if that is possible) we will colonise space.

    The water in the sea still evaporates and falls again as rain. As for the ice sheets melting, that would add more water to the cycle, not take it away. We will perhaps revisit this conversation when facing the usual winter flooding alarm.

    The earth could easily support 50 or 100 bn people, and quite possibly a lot more, albeit there would need to be some fairly substantial lifestyle changes to achieve this.

    With that said, given reproduction is now in the easy control of humans (almost anywhere), birth rates have absolutely collapsed.

    So the likelihood of the world population exploding (or even growing particularly quickly), seems pretty remote.

    ISTR something posted a few years back (possibly by you) showing the world has already reached peak child. There will never be more children in the world than there are now. There will be more people, as that peak moves up the age ranges, but it will stabilise at around 11bn, before gently declining.
    Now 11bn is not without its challenges; and nor is a population decline. But I am moderately optimistic about our ability to meet those challenges.
    Median world household income is about $10,000. your optimism has to include optimism that the poor are going to be happy staying poor, because in terms of resource consumtion bringing them all up to the living standards of very very poor westerners is equivalent to doubling (at a guess) the population.
    I'm also genuinely optimistic that the future will see the average individual have a better standard of living while consuming less.
    Less proper meat. Through wind, solar and batteries there's no need to drop anyones standard of living long term
    Everyone should have meat. And livestock are a valid part of good rotational farming and stewardship of the land.
    MEAT IS MURDER!
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,831
    edited August 2022
    Can anyone explain to me why it might be that the percentage of single men in the UK is 38.3% but for women it is 31.8%?

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/bulletins/populationestimatesbymaritalstatusandlivingarrangements/2019

    I notice Leon is busy making the case for the popularity of over-sexed middle aged men. I wonder why? Other than during the covid wartime spirit period Johnson's personal ratings never threatened positive territory as PM. He won an election against a staggeringly unpopular Labour leader. As for London ditto Livingstone. Perhaps he was popular there but then being Mayor was about his level.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    Having a shed load of oil and a load of public assets to flog didn't hurt, either, nor did access to the emerging European single market. Thatcher's macro policies were generally poor, hence her period in office being bookmarked by deep recessions and the economy undergoing an unprecedented rise in income inequality, although product market liberalisation was good. She certainly wasn't a moron, not that I think anyone called her that.
    The economic miracle of the 80s is a bit of a myth as far as I can see. It doesn't exactly leap out of the figures.
    It's not a myth: Thatcher successfully turned a failing manufacturing economy into a booming services one, aided and abetted by a boon from North Sea oil.

    Of course, there were winners and losers from that but there's no doubt the country got much wealthier: just compare the standard of living of anyone in 1978 with 1991.
    The same comparison can be made in any Western European country during that time, even Portugal and Italy which have had poor outcomes subsequently.
  • Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    Having a shed load of oil and a load of public assets to flog didn't hurt, either, nor did access to the emerging European single market. Thatcher's macro policies were generally poor, hence her period in office being bookmarked by deep recessions and the economy undergoing an unprecedented rise in income inequality, although product market liberalisation was good. She certainly wasn't a moron, not that I think anyone called her that.
    The economic miracle of the 80s is a bit of a myth as far as I can see. It doesn't exactly leap out of the figures.
    Structural changes take a long time to be measurable. The place to look for the economic miracle of the 80s is in the 'golden legacy' left to Gordon Brown.
    Or look at the British economy right now, completely in the shit. High rates of poverty, poor productivity growth, glaring regional inequalities, a lack of competitiveness, unaffordable housing, all have their roots in the 1980s, or are more deep rooted problems that the Thatcher "miracle" failed to solve. The only thing you can't blame her for is Brexit, she created the single market and would never have been daft enough to leave it.
    I mean, this is simply absurd

    You've just had an excellent holiday in Cornwall. I am staring out at London partying in the sunshine. Everyone carrying their picnics to Primrose Hill and Regent's Park

    Does this look like an economy "completely in the shit"?

    No, it does not. For an economy "completely in the shit" check out Ukraine, or Sri Lanka. They are really "in the shit"

    Yes we have dire warnings from the Bank of England, but they are just that, Dire warnings. They might easily be wrong. And even if they are right we are looking at a long boring recession, not a war and a Depression. it is said unemployment might rise to 6%. OMFG
    Are we completely in the shit? No. Are we completely free from shit? No. As always we are in the grey smear that is reality - but we do have significant structural problems of which nothing is being done to resolve them.

    During Covid the problems came to the surface. An army of kids not going to school and that means not being fed properly. And we are about to go through a winter where a lot of people are going to be cold and hungry, and in some cases dead.

    Easy for you to dismiss that because you and I are lucky enough not to be shitting our pants at how to keep food on the table and the heating on this winter. But its a massive fucking crisis and the time to start acting was months ago.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,831
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    Having a shed load of oil and a load of public assets to flog didn't hurt, either, nor did access to the emerging European single market. Thatcher's macro policies were generally poor, hence her period in office being bookmarked by deep recessions and the economy undergoing an unprecedented rise in income inequality, although product market liberalisation was good. She certainly wasn't a moron, not that I think anyone called her that.
    The economic miracle of the 80s is a bit of a myth as far as I can see. It doesn't exactly leap out of the figures.
    It's not a myth: Thatcher successfully turned a failing manufacturing economy into a booming services one, aided and abetted by a boon from North Sea oil.

    Of course, there were winners and losers from that but there's no doubt the country got much wealthier: just compare the standard of living of anyone in 1978 with 1991.
    The failure of the left to admit -even now - that Thatcher was the pivotal figure in transforming the post-war UK economy for the better is an enduring indication of their persistent stupidity. They are too childish to confess the truth. The day they do, will be a day to celebrate. I have not got champagne on ice

    No one outside the UK disputes what Thatcher did, and how she improved the UK. She is a revered figure for many. Even the Argentinians afford her a grudging, sullen respect - I know this, because I have asked them
    Not just the left. And I just don't think the numbers add up. People talk about Brown's golden legacy but then we were also disproportionately affected by the financial crisis. Once we lost the credit boom and North Sea Oil we were left naked.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,802

    Pulpstar said:

    Cookie said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I don't agree that there are too many people - that is a deeply spurious shibboleth in my opinion. No other living thing shares that view of its own species. When we approach capacity in this planet (if that is possible) we will colonise space.

    The water in the sea still evaporates and falls again as rain. As for the ice sheets melting, that would add more water to the cycle, not take it away. We will perhaps revisit this conversation when facing the usual winter flooding alarm.

    The earth could easily support 50 or 100 bn people, and quite possibly a lot more, albeit there would need to be some fairly substantial lifestyle changes to achieve this.

    With that said, given reproduction is now in the easy control of humans (almost anywhere), birth rates have absolutely collapsed.

    So the likelihood of the world population exploding (or even growing particularly quickly), seems pretty remote.

    ISTR something posted a few years back (possibly by you) showing the world has already reached peak child. There will never be more children in the world than there are now. There will be more people, as that peak moves up the age ranges, but it will stabilise at around 11bn, before gently declining.
    Now 11bn is not without its challenges; and nor is a population decline. But I am moderately optimistic about our ability to meet those challenges.
    Median world household income is about $10,000. your optimism has to include optimism that the poor are going to be happy staying poor, because in terms of resource consumtion bringing them all up to the living standards of very very poor westerners is equivalent to doubling (at a guess) the population.
    I'm also genuinely optimistic that the future will see the average individual have a better standard of living while consuming less.
    Less proper meat. Through wind, solar and batteries there's no need to drop anyones standard of living long term
    Everyone should have meat. And livestock are a valid part of good rotational farming and stewardship of the land.
    I will do virtually everything and anything else but meat is the one thing I won't compromise on (as my profile suggests).

    I think its climate "impact" is massively exaggerated, usually by those with other ideological PETA agendas, and no-one should be taken in by it. The only bit I can agree with is that clearing rainforest for beef grazing is stupid.

    Fundamentally, we have a problem because we burn billions of tons of fossil fuels each year; not because a few cows are farting.
    I'm pretty uncomfortable with the way the beef=climate change argument has been blindly accepted. The evidence presented seems pretty simplistic so far.
    OTOH, the combined weight of cows exceeds that of any other species of animal on earth, with the possible exception of Antarctic Krill (where there is vagary as they are very hard to count). So it's not inconceivable.
    But the studies I have seen seem fairly lightweight.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,155

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    Having a shed load of oil and a load of public assets to flog didn't hurt, either, nor did access to the emerging European single market. Thatcher's macro policies were generally poor, hence her period in office being bookmarked by deep recessions and the economy undergoing an unprecedented rise in income inequality, although product market liberalisation was good. She certainly wasn't a moron, not that I think anyone called her that.
    The economic miracle of the 80s is a bit of a myth as far as I can see. It doesn't exactly leap out of the figures.
    Structural changes take a long time to be measurable. The place to look for the economic miracle of the 80s is in the 'golden legacy' left to Gordon Brown.
    Or look at the British economy right now, completely in the shit. High rates of poverty, poor productivity growth, glaring regional inequalities, a lack of competitiveness, unaffordable housing, all have their roots in the 1980s, or are more deep rooted problems that the Thatcher "miracle" failed to solve. The only thing you can't blame her for is Brexit, she created the single market and would never have been daft enough to leave it.
    I mean, this is simply absurd

    You've just had an excellent holiday in Cornwall. I am staring out at London partying in the sunshine. Everyone carrying their picnics to Primrose Hill and Regent's Park

    Does this look like an economy "completely in the shit"?

    No, it does not. For an economy "completely in the shit" check out Ukraine, or Sri Lanka. They are really "in the shit"

    Yes we have dire warnings from the Bank of England, but they are just that, Dire warnings. They might easily be wrong. And even if they are right we are looking at a long boring recession, not a war and a Depression. it is said unemployment might rise to 6%. OMFG
    Are we completely in the shit? No. Are we completely free from shit? No. As always we are in the grey smear that is reality - but we do have significant structural problems of which nothing is being done to resolve them.

    During Covid the problems came to the surface. An army of kids not going to school and that means not being fed properly. And we are about to go through a winter where a lot of people are going to be cold and hungry, and in some cases dead.

    Easy for you to dismiss that because you and I are lucky enough not to be shitting our pants at how to keep food on the table and the heating on this winter. But its a massive fucking crisis and the time to start acting was months ago.
    We're a very unequal society and lots of people have no buffer at all against even a slight downturn let alone the one that's coming.

    Thank you Maggie Thatcher. You really were transformational.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,802
    On another subject, the world record for simultaneously doing three rubik's cubes while juggling them has been chiselled down to below four and a half minutes:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njKW8t0aAF8
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    Having a shed load of oil and a load of public assets to flog didn't hurt, either, nor did access to the emerging European single market. Thatcher's macro policies were generally poor, hence her period in office being bookmarked by deep recessions and the economy undergoing an unprecedented rise in income inequality, although product market liberalisation was good. She certainly wasn't a moron, not that I think anyone called her that.
    The economic miracle of the 80s is a bit of a myth as far as I can see. It doesn't exactly leap out of the figures.
    Structural changes take a long time to be measurable. The place to look for the economic miracle of the 80s is in the 'golden legacy' left to Gordon Brown.
    Or look at the British economy right now, completely in the shit. High rates of poverty, poor productivity growth, glaring regional inequalities, a lack of competitiveness, unaffordable housing, all have their roots in the 1980s, or are more deep rooted problems that the Thatcher "miracle" failed to solve. The only thing you can't blame her for is Brexit, she created the single market and would never have been daft enough to leave it.
    I mean, this is simply absurd

    You've just had an excellent holiday in Cornwall. I am staring out at London partying in the sunshine. Everyone carrying their picnics to Primrose Hill and Regent's Park

    Does this look like an economy "completely in the shit"?

    No, it does not. For an economy "completely in the shit" check out Ukraine, or Sri Lanka. They are really "in the shit"

    Yes we have dire warnings from the Bank of England, but they are just that, Dire warnings. They might easily be wrong. And even if they are right we are looking at a long boring recession, not a war and a Depression. it is said unemployment might rise to 6%. OMFG
    Are we completely in the shit? No. Are we completely free from shit? No. As always we are in the grey smear that is reality - but we do have significant structural problems of which nothing is being done to resolve them.

    During Covid the problems came to the surface. An army of kids not going to school and that means not being fed properly. And we are about to go through a winter where a lot of people are going to be cold and hungry, and in some cases dead.

    Easy for you to dismiss that because you and I are lucky enough not to be shitting our pants at how to keep food on the table and the heating on this winter. But its a massive fucking crisis and the time to start acting was months ago.
    That's more realistic, and fair, but I'm still not convinced we are in "a massive fucking crisis"

    Why? Because we have a very recent example of a genuinely "massive fucking crisis" to compare. I mean Covid. It closed down the world for two years. It killed 20 million people, it decimated economies, it changed the way we lived. THAT really was a "massive fucking crisis". A once-in-50-years event, and a really really bad one

    What we face now is a potentially painful economic downturn caused, in part, by a crazy war in distant lands. This happens. It's not great. But nor is it the apocalypse, and nor is it Covid 2.0

    One of the reasons I am warming to Liz Truss is the way she said "we are in danger of talking ourselves into recession". She's right.. Clearly, I like a bit of doom-mongering as much as the next PB-er, but we've probably had enough for the moment
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,802
    edited August 2022
    Duplicate - deleted.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557

    DavidL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    France drought: Parched towns left short of drinking water

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62436468

    USA: Half the country is in drought, and no region has been spared

    https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/04/weather/drought-map-northeast-texas-climate/index.html

    More than 75% of the world could face drought by 2050, UN report warns

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/05/drought-2050-un-report-climate-change/

    End Times. Seriously.

    I find these stories utterly ridiculous. Where do people think the water can go? If it goes up, it must come down.

    Mad greens (in line with EU policy) have been trying to stop new reservoirs being built for years precisely to stoke such ludicrous alarmism. If it's not drought, it's floods, with rivers that haven't been dredged for years (again, green blob) mysteriously bursting their banks.
    It could end up in the sea, salty and useless. The amount of fresh water in the world is collapsing with the ice sheets of Greenland and Antartica but much of the world that could rely on a steady flow from mountain tops is going to become more arid too. And of course there are far too many people.
    I don't agree that there are too many people - that is a deeply spurious shibboleth in my opinion. No other living thing shares that view of its own species. When we approach capacity in this planet (if that is possible) we will colonise space.

    The water in the sea still evaporates and falls again as rain. As for the ice sheets melting, that would add more water to the cycle, not take it away. We will perhaps revisit this conversation when facing the usual winter flooding alarm.

    Too many gammons, then.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652

    Can anyone explain to me why it might be that the percentage of single men in the UK is 38.3% but for women it is 31.8%?

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/bulletins/populationestimatesbymaritalstatusandlivingarrangements/2019

    I notice Leon is busy making the case for the popularity of over-sexed middle aged men. I wonder why? Other than during the covid wartime spirit period Johnson's personal ratings never threatened positive territory as PM. He won an election against a staggeringly unpopular Labour leader. As for London ditto Livingstone. Perhaps he was popular there but then being Mayor was about his level.

    Women marry younger.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,155
    Cookie said:

    On another subject, the world record for simultaneously doing three rubik's cubes while juggling them has been chiselled down to below four and a half minutes:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njKW8t0aAF8

    Hats off Cookie! The time you must have put in.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Labour should fear Liz Truss
    Her popularity among the grassroots is no accident
    BY JOHN MCTERNAN
    John McTernan is a British political strategist and former advisor to Tony Blair"

    https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-labour-should-fear-liz-truss/

    One of the main reasons Labour should fear Liz Truss - or Rishi Sunak - or my Aunt Gladys - is that SKS is not very good at retail politics.
    The piece contains this warning:

    "But [Sunak's] floundering campaign should be a lesson for Labour if they want to confront Liz Truss."

    I confess that I thought Truss would be an utter disaster and they may even ditch her after just one year. I am beginning to wonder whether, like it seems most people, I have seriously underestimated her.

    She really is the moron you thought she was. That is not to say the voting public won't be satisfied buyers.
    I was highly skeptical of Truss in the beginning. Especially after her floundering appearance in that first debate

    But I’ve not seen any evidence she is stupid, let alone “a moron”

    Where is it? What makes her “a moron”? Apart from the fact you disagree with her?
    It's moronic to think borrowing for tax cuts is a deflationary measure - but it doesn't follow from her saying this that she's a moron since it's possible she knows she's talking rot and is just doing it to secure votes in the leadership election.
    Has she explicitly said those words? If so that is certainly quite controversial, and against economic orthodoxy - tho again I hesitate to say "moronic"

    Remember the 798,999 economists who wrote to the Guardian calling Thatcher a moron, just as her reforms started to take effect, and the UK went into a boom
    Having a shed load of oil and a load of public assets to flog didn't hurt, either, nor did access to the emerging European single market. Thatcher's macro policies were generally poor, hence her period in office being bookmarked by deep recessions and the economy undergoing an unprecedented rise in income inequality, although product market liberalisation was good. She certainly wasn't a moron, not that I think anyone called her that.
    The economic miracle of the 80s is a bit of a myth as far as I can see. It doesn't exactly leap out of the figures.
    It's not a myth: Thatcher successfully turned a failing manufacturing economy into a booming services one, aided and abetted by a boon from North Sea oil.

    Of course, there were winners and losers from that but there's no doubt the country got much wealthier: just compare the standard of living of anyone in 1978 with 1991.
    The failure of the left to admit -even now - that Thatcher was the pivotal figure in transforming the post-war UK economy for the better is an enduring indication of their persistent stupidity. They are too childish to confess the truth. The day they do, will be a day to celebrate. I have not got champagne on ice

    No one outside the UK disputes what Thatcher did, and how she improved the UK. She is a revered figure for many. Even the Argentinians afford her a grudging, sullen respect - I know this, because I have asked them
    She is a pivotal figure, nobody would dispute that, and she transformed the UK economy. As I have previously noted, I think she deserves credit for making markets more competitive and for helping to create the EU single market. On the other hand, monetarism was a disastrous macro policy - it led to too high interest rates and an overvalued exchange rate, and we lost a whole swathe of viable, high productivity engineering firms as a result. The regional aspect of this policy failure is particularly pronounced and has left the economy unbalanced and unequal across different parts of the country. Selling council homes without allowing councils to build new ones has contributed to our current housing crisis. And we saw an increase in inequality almost unmatched among rich countries. At the end of her time in power we underwent a second deep recession because her government over stimulated the economy, creating a burst of inflation and a housing boom and bust. She sold off public assets too cheaply, and she failed to use North Sea oil revenue productively, so that while Norway has a vast sovereign wealth fund, we have nothing to show for it. It is a mixed legacy. "Better than Argentina" is a low bar.
This discussion has been closed.