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Starmer’s set to have a challenging September – politicalbetting.com

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  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    edited August 2022

    Nigelb said:

    I've just read the Amnesty report - it is very much caveated and couched in condemnation for Russia's attacks. And I understand that Amnesty has issued several other publications condemning acts by Russia.

    I find it quite troubling that people here seem to want an organisation like Amnesty International to show more solidarity, and don't 'feed Russia's narrative'. Something like this is either true or it isn't. If it's true, it doesn't matter whose narrative it fits in with. Those concerned have a right to be heard, not brushed under the carpet.

    Straw man argument.
    Please address what we’ve actually said.
    You posted and commended a Tweet thread that made 'feeding Russia's narrative' a key pillar of its critique of the report.
    And gave reasons for that. The argument wasn’t that they’re feeding the Russia narrative, but that they have adopted its framing.
    You’ve not addressed them, other than to note the argument.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    There are plenty of anti Truss comments on PB from current and recent Tories. The biggest concern I would have about her ability to change her deeply held convictions. She says she is on a political journey. I wonder where that journey will take her once elected to the top job.
    Well, quite. I just don't know what I will get. And I will also be culpable if I vote for her.

    I don't need that on my conscience.
    Plato argued that our political leaders should be older, because you could choose them on based on what they had done with their lives rather than just on what they promise to do.

    On that basis neither candidate is stellar and it makes me wish once more that Ben Wallace had stayed in the race.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080

    Mr. Doethur, indeed, a change of government may well occur.

    Mr. Password, the weakness of democracy is that the capacity to govern has precious little to do with campaigning talent. As the current PM proves.

    Well, maybe. But after the experience of PMs like Brown and May I think campaigning talent, or what you might also call an ability to persuade and inspire, is a necessary but not sufficient attribute for a political leader.

    Not much point in having a political leader who can do the administrative side of things if they can't convince the public, or indeed their colleagues, to follow their lead.

    And anyway, the leader will delegate much of the administrative task. As we discussed when Johnson first became PM, his previous successes had come when he appointed a competent person and backed them. This happened again with vaccines during the pandemic. Sadly he appointed one of the weakest Cabinets we have ever seen, and so government as a whole was shockingly badly run.

    We'll find out a lot more about Truss when we see her Cabinet and how they do over the winter.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    There are plenty of anti Truss comments on PB from current and recent Tories. The biggest concern I would have about her ability to change her deeply held convictions. She says she is on a political journey. I wonder where that journey will take her once elected to the top job.
    Well, quite. I just don't know what I will get. And I will also be culpable if I vote for her.

    I don't need that on my conscience.
    Plato argued that our political leaders should be older, because you could choose them on based on what they had done with their lives rather than just on what they promise to do.

    On that basis neither candidate is stellar and it makes me wish once more that Ben Wallace had stayed in the race.
    Sadly, Plato's opinions on politics have really not aged well.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080

    Mr. Doethur, indeed, a change of government may well occur.

    Mr. Password, the weakness of democracy is that the capacity to govern has precious little to do with campaigning talent. As the current PM proves.

    Democracy was producing fairly decent leaders until recently. We should be asking why things have deteriorated.
    It's deteriorated because we've not recovered from the Great Financial Crash of 2008, and people are casting around for alternatives.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    Sean_F said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    There are plenty of anti Truss comments on PB from current and recent Tories. The biggest concern I would have about her ability to change her deeply held convictions. She says she is on a political journey. I wonder where that journey will take her once elected to the top job.
    Well, quite. I just don't know what I will get. And I will also be culpable if I vote for her.

    I don't need that on my conscience.
    Plato argued that our political leaders should be older, because you could choose them on based on what they had done with their lives rather than just on what they promise to do.

    On that basis neither candidate is stellar and it makes me wish once more that Ben Wallace had stayed in the race.
    Sadly, Plato's opinions on politics have really not aged well.
    That opinion, stands up very well today. Judged people by what they have actually done, not what that they will say they will do.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205

    Nigelb said:

    I've just read the Amnesty report - it is very much caveated and couched in condemnation for Russia's attacks. And I understand that Amnesty has issued several other publications condemning acts by Russia.

    I find it quite troubling that people here seem to want an organisation like Amnesty International to show more solidarity, and don't 'feed Russia's narrative'. Something like this is either true or it isn't. If it's true, it doesn't matter whose narrative it fits in with. Those concerned have a right to be heard, not brushed under the carpet.

    Straw man argument.
    Please address what we’ve actually said.
    You posted and commended a Tweet thread that made 'feeding Russia's narrative' a key pillar of its critique of the report.
    Who could possibly have imagined that you wouldn’t have a problem with feeding Russia’s narrative?
    I have a problem with falsehoods feeding a false narrative. The truth is different.
    Talking of which, yesterday you posted the following:
    "but in Syria it was a frequent technique of the insurgent forces to base themselves in Mosques, Schools and Hospitals."

    What are your source(s) for that claim?

    (From: https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2022/08/05/could-tory-members-tell-us-when-they-get-their-packs/)
  • Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    Sunak could win the next election. Truss cannot. So it depends if you want to be a purist and lose or not...
    Apart from Leon, who is hoping she will make BDSM compulsory, do we actually have any Truss supporters in here?
    Bartholomew is the big Truss fan. I'm surprised there aren't more.
    Given the hard time they'd get if they posted here there'll be lurking/staying silent.

    This board hates Truss.
    Andrew Neil has a good take on this. It’s a good take because it agrees with what I’ve been saying for weeks!

    Rishi is the ‘blob’ candidate, and the same blob that got Johnson are coming for Truss straight away

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11085647/ANDREW-NEIL-Liz-Trusss-biggest-foe-wont-Starmer-vitrolic-campaign-Left-Blob.html

    But it is not Starmer Truss has to worry about. It is what is best described as the Left Blob, which is now omnipresent in British public life, dominant in the citadels of power, including most of the media (above all the broadcasters), the Civil Service, the NHS, the legal system (including the judiciary), education (especially the universities), social media, most public bodies and private charities.”
    The "blob" being people who aren't shamelessly self-centred and uncaring like the people in the non-blob?

    This isn't even about politics. There is a survival of the fittest fight for everything mentality growing out there. People are getting more aggressive and more confrontational, and the people who are most prone to these new behaviours see others as "woke" and "the blob".
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Mr. Booth, it's true democracy can and has, and will, produce good leaders.

    The problem at the moment is that the Conservative MPs failed utterly to learn the obvious lessons from two pieces of very recent tutelage. They had Boris Johnson as Foreign Secretary, at which he was poor, and Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader, at which he was catastrophically bad (yet still nearly became PM when May decided to conduct the worst campaign since Remain).

    Given this, they opted for Boris Johnson, which has also had the impact of reducing more centrist types in both the Parliamentary and wider party. And before anyone claims he's a success because of election victory, the priority of a party ought to be to govern well. This has not been occurring. It may well continue not to occur.

    A problem the nation faces is that the Scottish independence question has not gone away and sooner or later a second referendum is nigh on certain. Having that and avoiding the breakup of the country is a critical matter.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,412

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    Sunak could win the next election. Truss cannot. So it depends if you want to be a purist and lose or not...
    Apart from Leon, who is hoping she will make BDSM compulsory, do we actually have any Truss supporters in here?
    Bartholomew is the big Truss fan. I'm surprised there aren't more.
    Given the hard time they'd get if they posted here there'll be lurking/staying silent.

    This board hates Truss.

    I personally don’t actually “hate Truss” in the way I hate JRM. In better times I would be a fan of her views but as the economy is I think caution is better based on the opinion that the Tories are likely to lose (hope they don’t) the next election and so I think it would be better for the country to manage the situation carefully for the next couple of years.

    I think a radical ripping up of tax and borrowing would be fine once this storm has passed but the time it will take to really do anything to help the CofL crisis means that by the time these changes show their benefits people will have been rogered, the Tories will be smashed and then Labour could come in and potentially apply the wrong measures for the long term.

    My real beef with Truss is that she appears to be someone who just blurts out statements and takes positions without them having been thought through - backing Brits going to fight in Ukraine was a prime example.

    I think we need a period of calm in leadership where the PM isn’t kicking off with everyone - I can see her stirring up relations with the EU for domestic political reasons, I can see her saying “strong things” against China because she thinks it makes her sound strong instead of being a bit more measured. I think she has the capacity to drive Scots towards independence because she seems to think that attacking and being tough will help - doesn’t seem to have heard the saying “you catch more flies with honey than vinegar”.

    Sunak is not great politically but I really believe the country needs less of the showman, less triangulating, less puffing out the chest, less antagonism and get our heads down, find ways through problems with the EU diplomatically etc. it’s not punchy or exciting but boring is probably needed.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141

    Mr. Doethur, indeed, a change of government may well occur.

    Mr. Password, the weakness of democracy is that the capacity to govern has precious little to do with campaigning talent. As the current PM proves.

    Democracy was producing fairly decent leaders until recently. We should be asking why things have deteriorated.
    It's deteriorated because we've not recovered from the Great Financial Crash of 2008, and people are casting around for alternatives.
    A lot of issues. One is demographic. As the population ages, so the rate of growth slows. Globalisation has enabled us to enjoy lots of cheap stuff, but at the same time, has wiped out a lot of well-paid employment, and redistributed wealth upwards. Then, there have been all the black swan events, like the GFC, Covid, the war in Ukraine.

  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,695

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    I don't particularly like Rishi either; the Tories should have gone for Mordaunt.

    But isn't pitching at non-Tories - particularly when those self-declaring as Tories is down to almost 30% - the idea in order to have a chance at the next election?

    Anyhow, the sensible Tories in here are all avoiding Truss. Indeed, even HY is avoiding Truss. You really don't need to rely on my example.
    None of you are floating voters on here.

    I'd be interested in hearing from them though.
    @Casino_Royale On that point the MP for Ludlow was on R4 last night. He asked for feedback from local Tories and constituents. Tory party members split pretty equally 1/3 each between Truss, Sunak and don't know. Constituents split 4 to 1 in favour to Sunak. He voted accordingly.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    edited August 2022
    Nigelb said:

    Ukraine’s military destroys 6 ammunition depots in southern Ukraine.

    Operational Command “South” said it killed 79 Russian troops and destroyed four tanks, two howitzers, an artillery installation, a radar station, and 22 armored and military vehicles on Aug. 5.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1555756841828769792

    This video was interesting.

    The #UkrainianArmy is preparing to participate in the #Kherson referendum. We believe the vote will be nothing short of decisive. https://t.co/goNi3qaJEH

    This is a column of Polish upgraded T72 tanks, and by the look of the fields a recent one, in broad daylight and ostensibly in Kherson Oblast. It is the new Tank Brigade, clearly not afraid of being seen or bombed.

    Both sides are keying up Kherson to be the next battle. The Russians have shifted 20 or so BTGs from the Donbas too.

    I think that the Ukranians choose to fight the next battle there, away from the urban areas of the Donbas, and with short supply lines of their own, and long, tenuous and vulnerable Russian supply lines, with the rivers and bridges limiting the Russian ability to counter manoeuvre. I expect targeted attrition of the Russians rather than an all out assault on Kherson City. Amnesty International should approve.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    edited August 2022
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    Sunak could win the next election. Truss cannot. So it depends if you want to be a purist and lose or not...
    Apart from Leon, who is hoping she will make BDSM compulsory, do we actually have any Truss supporters in here?
    Bartholomew is the big Truss fan. I'm surprised there aren't more.
    Given the hard time they'd get if they posted here there'll be lurking/staying silent.

    This board hates Truss.
    Andrew Neil has a good take on this. It’s a good take because it agrees with what I’ve been saying for weeks!

    Rishi is the ‘blob’ candidate, and the same blob that got Johnson are coming for Truss straight away

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11085647/ANDREW-NEIL-Liz-Trusss-biggest-foe-wont-Starmer-vitrolic-campaign-Left-Blob.html

    But it is not Starmer Truss has to worry about. It is what is best described as the Left Blob, which is now omnipresent in British public life, dominant in the citadels of power, including most of the media (above all the broadcasters), the Civil Service, the NHS, the legal system (including the judiciary), education (especially the universities), social media, most public bodies and private charities.”
    You forgot to mention the Illuminati, the deep state conspiracy and the lizard aliens?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    Sunak could win the next election. Truss cannot. So it depends if you want to be a purist and lose or not...
    Apart from Leon, who is hoping she will make BDSM compulsory, do we actually have any Truss supporters in here?
    Bartholomew is the big Truss fan. I'm surprised there aren't more.
    Given the hard time they'd get if they posted here there'll be lurking/staying silent.

    This board hates Truss.
    Andrew Neil has a good take on this. It’s a good take because it agrees with what I’ve been saying for weeks!

    Rishi is the ‘blob’ candidate, and the same blob that got Johnson are coming for Truss straight away

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11085647/ANDREW-NEIL-Liz-Trusss-biggest-foe-wont-Starmer-vitrolic-campaign-Left-Blob.html

    But it is not Starmer Truss has to worry about. It is what is best described as the Left Blob, which is now omnipresent in British public life, dominant in the citadels of power, including most of the media (above all the broadcasters), the Civil Service, the NHS, the legal system (including the judiciary), education (especially the universities), social media, most public bodies and private charities.”
    That's because most people who work in key roles in those areas are tertiary-level graduates who, by and large, have all been to Russell Group universities and hold those views accordingly.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    edited August 2022
    IanB2 said:




    Mordaunt could have brought some 'real human' to the role, as well as ticking enough boxes with her military background to keep her own side happy.

    Five years in the reserves then four years on the inactive list and she promoted herself four ranks on the way out when she became SecDef. Inspiring.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ukraine’s military destroys 6 ammunition depots in southern Ukraine.

    Operational Command “South” said it killed 79 Russian troops and destroyed four tanks, two howitzers, an artillery installation, a radar station, and 22 armored and military vehicles on Aug. 5.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1555756841828769792

    This video was interesting.

    The #UkrainianArmy is preparing to participate in the #Kherson referendum. We believe the vote will be nothing short of decisive. https://t.co/goNi3qaJEH

    This is a column of Polish upgraded T72 tanks, and by the look of the fields a recent one, in broad daylight and ostensibly in Kherson Oblast. It is the new Tank Brigade, clearly not afraid of being seen or bombed.

    Both sides are keying up Kherson to be the next battle. The Russians have shifted 20 or so BTGs from the Donbas too.

    I think that the Ukranians choose to fight the next battle there, away from the urban areas of the Donbas, and with short supply lines of their own, and long, tenuous and vulnerable Russian supply lines, with the rivers and bridges limiting the Russian ability to counter manoeuvre. I expect targeted attrition of the Russians rather than an all out assault on Kherson City. Amnesty International should approve.

    No, they'll accuse the Ukrainians of breaking international law by denying supplies to the Russians. I really don't know what planet Agnes Callamard is on.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Mr. Royale, the pipes point you make has not been mentioned enough.

    An 'obvious' approach to take to try and save money is having the heating on less or not having it on overnight.

    But if this happens and the winter is cold then we could see significant numbers of burst pipes, as water freezes, expands, cracks pipes. This then leads to huge water damage than can cost thousands of pounds (or much more) to fix.

    If the media wanted to be helpful they might want to warn against that as it could be a very bad step many people mistakenly take.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    Sunak could win the next election. Truss cannot. So it depends if you want to be a purist and lose or not...
    Apart from Leon, who is hoping she will make BDSM compulsory, do we actually have any Truss supporters in here?
    Bartholomew is the big Truss fan. I'm surprised there aren't more.
    Given the hard time they'd get if they posted here there'll be lurking/staying silent.

    This board hates Truss.
    Andrew Neil has a good take on this. It’s a good take because it agrees with what I’ve been saying for weeks!

    Rishi is the ‘blob’ candidate, and the same blob that got Johnson are coming for Truss straight away

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11085647/ANDREW-NEIL-Liz-Trusss-biggest-foe-wont-Starmer-vitrolic-campaign-Left-Blob.html

    But it is not Starmer Truss has to worry about. It is what is best described as the Left Blob, which is now omnipresent in British public life, dominant in the citadels of power, including most of the media (above all the broadcasters), the Civil Service, the NHS, the legal system (including the judiciary), education (especially the universities), social media, most public bodies and private charities.”
    You forgot to mention the Illuminati, the deep state conspiracy and the lizard aliens?
    The Tories have been in power for 12 years and are still convinced a "Left Blob" runs the country. It is a bonkers obsession that just shows up their delusional paranoia and insecurity.
    The blob was a mediocre black and white sci fi movie.

    It was more interesting than Andrew Neils column.

    I usually like his columns but this is just conspiracy theory stuff.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ukraine’s military destroys 6 ammunition depots in southern Ukraine.

    Operational Command “South” said it killed 79 Russian troops and destroyed four tanks, two howitzers, an artillery installation, a radar station, and 22 armored and military vehicles on Aug. 5.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1555756841828769792

    This video was interesting.

    The #UkrainianArmy is preparing to participate in the #Kherson referendum. We believe the vote will be nothing short of decisive. https://t.co/goNi3qaJEH

    This is a column of Polish upgraded T72 tanks, and by the look of the fields a recent one, in broad daylight and ostensibly in Kherson Oblast. It is the new Tank Brigade, clearly not afraid of being seen or bombed.

    Both sides are keying up Kherson to be the next battle. The Russians have shifted 20 or so BTGs from the Donbas too.

    I think that the Ukranians choose to fight the next battle there, away from the urban areas of the Donbas, and with short supply lines of their own, and long, tenuous and vulnerable Russian supply lines, with the rivers and bridges limiting the Russian ability to counter manoeuvre. I expect targeted attrition of the Russians rather than an all out assault on Kherson City. Amnesty International should approve.

    No, they'll accuse the Ukrainians of breaking international law by denying supplies to the Russians. I really don't know what planet Agnes Callamard is on.
    Pro-Russian opinion is surprisingly common in France.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    Taz said:

    Jake Berry on Sky News. Truss to offer hope not handouts.

    And will the energy companies accept "hope" in payment for providing heating?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162

    Taz said:

    Jake Berry on Sky News. Truss to offer hope not handouts.

    Clueless. People's gas and electricity bills could be an extra £200 pcm this Winter. And that's on top of the eye-watering amounts we're already paying.

    We're talking people switching their gas boilers, central heating and lights off - some will freeze and die, others will develop illnesses - and it will ruin many pipes & systems and cause plumbing problems for years.

    And she wants to just trim a green levy. No-one will thank her for that.
    It is crazy and does little to help those who need it the most. Reversing the NI changes won’t help the poorest. The way it was structured they gained from it. If she doesn’t address this issue properly it will kill her premiership stone dead.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    ...

    Scott_xP said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Doesn't matter as long as she gest the gig.

    She really is continuity BoZo
    I also suspect in Liz's case, the prize is the prize, and she won't fear legacy issues in the same way Johnson did. Losing the Union or our place on the World stage whilst PM won't hurt her so much as it would have Johnson.
    Really? I'd say the opposite. Cameron just thought he'd be 'rather good at it', and I think that part of Johnson's motivation was to beat Cameron, the way he beat him at everything. I think Johnson would have liked to do more Johnsonian vast building projects, but that's all. Liz seems genuinely to want to get stuck in.
    Yes Johnson would have liked to have eclipsed Cameron's tenure as PM, and have had a Garden Bridge, or a bus or a bike named after him, but he would have hated the history books referencing him as the Prime Minister who oversaw the break up of the United Kingdom.

    I don't think La Truss has any such reservations. "Getting stuck in" as you say means promising fantasy economics, which if engaged would exacerbate an already concerning situation.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,708

    Mr. Doethur, indeed, a change of government may well occur.

    Mr. Password, the weakness of democracy is that the capacity to govern has precious little to do with campaigning talent. As the current PM proves.

    Democracy was producing fairly decent leaders until recently. We should be asking why things have deteriorated.
    It's deteriorated because we've not recovered from the Great Financial Crash of 2008, and people are casting around for alternatives.
    That's certainly a part of it. Feels as if the Tory party would like to go back to the 80s rather than be in 2022.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Jake Berry on Sky News. Truss to offer hope not handouts.

    Clueless. People's gas and electricity bills could be an extra £200 pcm this Winter. And that's on top of the eye-watering amounts we're already paying.

    We're talking people switching their gas boilers, central heating and lights off - some will freeze and die, others will develop illnesses - and it will ruin many pipes & systems and cause plumbing problems for years.

    And she wants to just trim a green levy. No-one will thank her for that.
    It is crazy and does little to help those who need it the most. Reversing the NI changes won’t help the poorest. The way it was structured they gained from it. If she doesn’t address this issue properly it will kill her premiership stone dead.
    To be fair, I think she's only talking about dropping the increase part, not the raising of thresholds that gave mitigation for the poorest. So she'll turn a measure presented as essential to raise vital funds for the NHS and social care into a net financial loser for the government.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,889

    The point about *both* candidates is that they are not talking about the people at risk this winter, they are trying to woo the people not at risk. So the winner becomes PM far too late to do anything with the mindset that whatever action they take needs to benefit the people who don't need help.

    Another thing that worries me about both the candidates is that both of them are saying "I will do" this that and the other. It is not a matter of "I will persuade" the Cabinet, the MPs, the Conservative Party, Parliament and least of all the country.

    What they are both seeking to become is a dictator - following in Johnson's footsteps, of course - and forgetting that this country is supposed to be a democracy.

    I want neither of them as prime minister, and the only way to get that is to kick the Tories out of office as soon as may be.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    There are plenty of anti Truss comments on PB from current and recent Tories. The biggest concern I would have about her ability to change her deeply held convictions. She says she is on a political journey. I wonder where that journey will take her once elected to the top job.
    Well, quite. I just don't know what I will get. And I will also be culpable if I vote for her.

    I don't need that on my conscience.
    Plato argued that our political leaders should be older, because you could choose them on based on what they had done with their lives rather than just on what they promise to do.

    On that basis neither candidate is stellar and it makes me wish once more that Ben Wallace had stayed in the race.
    It seems the only way you can really succeed in politics these days is to assiduously network at university, join the youth branch, train up, get a job in Westminster/union/campaign group/think-tank and then convert to the candidates list.

    If I ever did it (which I won't) I probably wouldn't do it until my 50s, and then only for 10-15 years.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,412
    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    Jake Berry on Sky News. Truss to offer hope not handouts.

    And will the energy companies accept "hope" in payment for providing heating?
    I’m sure your online banking will add to GBP, USD and EUR soon with the new currencies “Hope” and “Prayers”. Mind you they are about as valid as a lot of E-coins so maybe it will work!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ukraine’s military destroys 6 ammunition depots in southern Ukraine.

    Operational Command “South” said it killed 79 Russian troops and destroyed four tanks, two howitzers, an artillery installation, a radar station, and 22 armored and military vehicles on Aug. 5.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1555756841828769792

    This video was interesting.

    The #UkrainianArmy is preparing to participate in the #Kherson referendum. We believe the vote will be nothing short of decisive. https://t.co/goNi3qaJEH

    This is a column of Polish upgraded T72 tanks, and by the look of the fields a recent one, in broad daylight and ostensibly in Kherson Oblast. It is the new Tank Brigade, clearly not afraid of being seen or bombed.

    Both sides are keying up Kherson to be the next battle. The Russians have shifted 20 or so BTGs from the Donbas too.

    I think that the Ukranians choose to fight the next battle there, away from the urban areas of the Donbas, and with short supply lines of their own, and long, tenuous and vulnerable Russian supply lines, with the rivers and bridges limiting the Russian ability to counter manoeuvre. I expect targeted attrition of the Russians rather than an all out assault on Kherson City. Amnesty International should approve.

    No, they'll accuse the Ukrainians of breaking international law by denying supplies to the Russians. I really don't know what planet Agnes Callamard is on.
    Pro-Russian opinion is surprisingly common in France.
    It's probably a holdover from the says when France had a very large and electorally successful communist party. Most ex-communists now vote RN.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,638

    Mr. Doethur, indeed, a change of government may well occur.

    Mr. Password, the weakness of democracy is that the capacity to govern has precious little to do with campaigning talent. As the current PM proves.

    Democracy was producing fairly decent leaders until recently. We should be asking why things have deteriorated.
    It's deteriorated because we've not recovered from the Great Financial Crash of 2008, and people are casting around for alternatives.
    That's certainly a part of it. Feels as if the Tory party would like to go back to the 80s rather than be in 2022.
    We're certainly going back to 1980 with regard to CPI! 👿👿👿
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ukraine’s military destroys 6 ammunition depots in southern Ukraine.

    Operational Command “South” said it killed 79 Russian troops and destroyed four tanks, two howitzers, an artillery installation, a radar station, and 22 armored and military vehicles on Aug. 5.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1555756841828769792

    This video was interesting.

    The #UkrainianArmy is preparing to participate in the #Kherson referendum. We believe the vote will be nothing short of decisive. https://t.co/goNi3qaJEH

    This is a column of Polish upgraded T72 tanks, and by the look of the fields a recent one, in broad daylight and ostensibly in Kherson Oblast. It is the new Tank Brigade, clearly not afraid of being seen or bombed.

    Both sides are keying up Kherson to be the next battle. The Russians have shifted 20 or so BTGs from the Donbas too.

    I think that the Ukranians choose to fight the next battle there, away from the urban areas of the Donbas, and with short supply lines of their own, and long, tenuous and vulnerable Russian supply lines, with the rivers and bridges limiting the Russian ability to counter manoeuvre. I expect targeted attrition of the Russians rather than an all out assault on Kherson City. Amnesty International should approve.

    No, they'll accuse the Ukrainians of breaking international law by denying supplies to the Russians. I really don't know what planet Agnes Callamard is on.
    Pro-Russian opinion is surprisingly common in France.
    They must have (had) a common neighbour.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,279
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ukraine’s military destroys 6 ammunition depots in southern Ukraine.

    Operational Command “South” said it killed 79 Russian troops and destroyed four tanks, two howitzers, an artillery installation, a radar station, and 22 armored and military vehicles on Aug. 5.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1555756841828769792

    This video was interesting.

    The #UkrainianArmy is preparing to participate in the #Kherson referendum. We believe the vote will be nothing short of decisive. https://t.co/goNi3qaJEH

    This is a column of Polish upgraded T72 tanks, and by the look of the fields a recent one, in broad daylight and ostensibly in Kherson Oblast. It is the new Tank Brigade, clearly not afraid of being seen or bombed.

    Both sides are keying up Kherson to be the next battle. The Russians have shifted 20 or so BTGs from the Donbas too.

    I think that the Ukranians choose to fight the next battle there, away from the urban areas of the Donbas, and with short supply lines of their own, and long, tenuous and vulnerable Russian supply lines, with the rivers and bridges limiting the Russian ability to counter manoeuvre. I expect targeted attrition of the Russians rather than an all out assault on Kherson City. Amnesty International should approve.

    No, they'll accuse the Ukrainians of breaking international law by denying supplies to the Russians. I really don't know what planet Agnes Callamard is on.
    Pro-Russian opinion is surprisingly common in France.
    It's probably a holdover from the says when France had a very large and electorally successful communist party. Most ex-communists now vote RN.
    In the runoff v Macron maybe, otherwise they would vote for Melenchon who is anti NATO as well as hard left
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,599
    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    Jake Berry on Sky News. Truss to offer hope not handouts.

    And will the energy companies accept "hope" in payment for providing heating?
    The strange thing is we all know the reality is that they will need to offer massive subsidies on heating this winter. Why not get ahead of the curve and own it rather than spend the next three months saying help is a bad thing and then do a last minute u-turn?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,708
    edited August 2022
    Nigelb said:

    “The blob” is a contemptible concept, being an information free substitute for any genuine analysis of what it purportedly labels.
    One of Gove’s laziest ideas.

    A very clever political phrase that allows people to put on to it whatever they like but is impossible to pin down and thus argue against. Rather like 'there's something of the night about him.'

    Hard to imagine Howard saying 'I categorically deny that there is anything of the night about me.'
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ukraine’s military destroys 6 ammunition depots in southern Ukraine.

    Operational Command “South” said it killed 79 Russian troops and destroyed four tanks, two howitzers, an artillery installation, a radar station, and 22 armored and military vehicles on Aug. 5.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1555756841828769792

    This video was interesting.

    The #UkrainianArmy is preparing to participate in the #Kherson referendum. We believe the vote will be nothing short of decisive. https://t.co/goNi3qaJEH

    This is a column of Polish upgraded T72 tanks, and by the look of the fields a recent one, in broad daylight and ostensibly in Kherson Oblast. It is the new Tank Brigade, clearly not afraid of being seen or bombed.

    Both sides are keying up Kherson to be the next battle. The Russians have shifted 20 or so BTGs from the Donbas too.

    I think that the Ukranians choose to fight the next battle there, away from the urban areas of the Donbas, and with short supply lines of their own, and long, tenuous and vulnerable Russian supply lines, with the rivers and bridges limiting the Russian ability to counter manoeuvre. I expect targeted attrition of the Russians rather than an all out assault on Kherson City. Amnesty International should approve.

    No, they'll accuse the Ukrainians of breaking international law by denying supplies to the Russians. I really don't know what planet Agnes Callamard is on.
    Pro-Russian opinion is surprisingly common in France.
    It's probably a holdover from the says when France had a very large and electorally successful communist party. Most ex-communists now vote RN.
    In the runoff v Macron maybe, otherwise they would vote for Melenchon who is anti NATO as well as hard left
    A lot of industrial seats that were once communist strongholds in the North, now vote RN.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Just an aside, but re-reading Chris Wickham's Inheritance of Rome and just covered a bit in which Byzantium dictated the profit margin that bakers and other tradesmen could make...
  • What needs to happen with energy bills: a legal non-payment scheme.

    Its very simple - people cannot pay these bills. The cap will be higher than wages / UC so that 100% of income would not pay the bill.

    So the bills will not be paid. What must happen is that (a) people do not get cut off and (b) people do not accrue thousands of unpayable debt.

    Sorry energy companies, you are about to take the fall. Profit and Loss.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,279

    Mr. Booth, it's true democracy can and has, and will, produce good leaders.

    The problem at the moment is that the Conservative MPs failed utterly to learn the obvious lessons from two pieces of very recent tutelage. They had Boris Johnson as Foreign Secretary, at which he was poor, and Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader, at which he was catastrophically bad (yet still nearly became PM when May decided to conduct the worst campaign since Remain).

    Given this, they opted for Boris Johnson, which has also had the impact of reducing more centrist types in both the Parliamentary and wider party. And before anyone claims he's a success because of election victory, the priority of a party ought to be to govern well. This has not been occurring. It may well continue not to occur.

    A problem the nation faces is that the Scottish independence question has not gone away and sooner or later a second referendum is nigh on certain. Having that and avoiding the breakup of the country is a critical matter.

    Both Truss and Sunak have ruled out allowing an indyref2.

    Only if the Tories win most seats at the next general election but Labour and the SNP have more seats than the Tories would even Starmer consider allowing an indyref2
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    Jake Berry on Sky News. Truss to offer hope not handouts.

    And will the energy companies accept "hope" in payment for providing heating?
    The strange thing is we all know the reality is that they will need to offer massive subsidies on heating this winter. Why not get ahead of the curve and own it rather than spend the next three months saying help is a bad thing and then do a last minute u-turn?
    You’d expect them to look,at Johnson’s premiership and this was one of his main failings. Surely they’d want to not make the same mistake.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    There are plenty of anti Truss comments on PB from current and recent Tories. The biggest concern I would have about her ability to change her deeply held convictions. She says she is on a political journey. I wonder where that journey will take her once elected to the top job.
    Well, quite. I just don't know what I will get. And I will also be culpable if I vote for her.

    I don't need that on my conscience.
    Plato argued that our political leaders should be older, because you could choose them on based on what they had done with their lives rather than just on what they promise to do.

    On that basis neither candidate is stellar and it makes me wish once more that Ben Wallace had stayed in the race.
    It seems the only way you can really succeed in politics these days is to assiduously network at university, join the youth branch, train up, get a job in Westminster/union/campaign group/think-tank and then convert to the candidates list.

    If I ever did it (which I won't) I probably wouldn't do it until my 50s, and then only for 10-15 years.
    It just sounds terribly boring, if nothing else.
  • Mr. Doethur, indeed, a change of government may well occur.

    Mr. Password, the weakness of democracy is that the capacity to govern has precious little to do with campaigning talent. As the current PM proves.

    Democracy was producing fairly decent leaders until recently. We should be asking why things have deteriorated.
    It's deteriorated because we've not recovered from the Great Financial Crash of 2008, and people are casting around for alternatives.
    That's certainly a part of it. Feels as if the Tory party would like to go back to the 80s rather than be in 2022.
    UK Number One 40 years ago:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_i9t7h8AgY
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    Nigelb said:

    “The blob” is a contemptible concept, being an information free substitute for any genuine analysis of what it purportedly labels.
    One of Gove’s laziest ideas.

    It was a brilliant debating technique which has enough truth in it that everyone immediately knows what he is talking about. But it is not a policy for education, the economy or anything else.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,412

    What needs to happen with energy bills: a legal non-payment scheme.

    Its very simple - people cannot pay these bills. The cap will be higher than wages / UC so that 100% of income would not pay the bill.

    So the bills will not be paid. What must happen is that (a) people do not get cut off and (b) people do not accrue thousands of unpayable debt.

    Sorry energy companies, you are about to take the fall. Profit and Loss.


    Not sure what the details were in the UK during covid about protecting people who couldn’t pay their rent but would that be a model to adapt for the govt?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    IanB2 said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Jake Berry on Sky News. Truss to offer hope not handouts.

    Clueless. People's gas and electricity bills could be an extra £200 pcm this Winter. And that's on top of the eye-watering amounts we're already paying.

    We're talking people switching their gas boilers, central heating and lights off - some will freeze and die, others will develop illnesses - and it will ruin many pipes & systems and cause plumbing problems for years.

    And she wants to just trim a green levy. No-one will thank her for that.
    It is crazy and does little to help those who need it the most. Reversing the NI changes won’t help the poorest. The way it was structured they gained from it. If she doesn’t address this issue properly it will kill her premiership stone dead.
    To be fair, I think she's only talking about dropping the increase part, not the raising of thresholds that gave mitigation for the poorest. So she'll turn a measure presented as essential to raise vital funds for the NHS and social care into a net financial loser for the government.
    While at the same time giving more money to the more well off and the least well off, who have the most need, are no better off.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851
    DavidL said:

    In Sunak and Truss the Tories have 2 articulate, well educated, moderately competent potential leaders. They both have flaws, and both will seriously struggle to cope with the problems we have right now. Sunak is the more small c Conservative one, dubious about the ability of the state to do much and keener to leave things to private enterprise and the hidden hand of the market. Truss is keener to have government do things, to take more risks and will undoubtedly be more activist.

    Have either of them got a real handle on the mess that they are inheriting with inflation rampant, QE, high taxes but very poorly performing public services, low productivity and investment, an ongoing balance of payments problem, Andrew Bailey, Ukraine, gas prices, etc etc? Not really, but then who does?

    Shouldn't that be 'the mess the they helped to create'?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    There are plenty of anti Truss comments on PB from current and recent Tories. The biggest concern I would have about her ability to change her deeply held convictions. She says she is on a political journey. I wonder where that journey will take her once elected to the top job.
    Well, quite. I just don't know what I will get. And I will also be culpable if I vote for her.

    I don't need that on my conscience.
    Plato argued that our political leaders should be older, because you could choose them on based on what they had done with their lives rather than just on what they promise to do.

    On that basis neither candidate is stellar and it makes me wish once more that Ben Wallace had stayed in the race.
    It seems the only way you can really succeed in politics these days is to assiduously network at university, join the youth branch, train up, get a job in Westminster/union/campaign group/think-tank and then convert to the candidates list.

    If I ever did it (which I won't) I probably wouldn't do it until my 50s, and then only for 10-15 years.
    Well I hope you go for it.

    In the meantime, I think you’re right but it’s worse than that. Politicians seek to create a smokescreen, by avoiding talking about the choices they have made and instead talking about the circumstances of their birth and childhood. Or worse, in the case of Sunak, the circumstances of their grandfather’s birth.

    It’s what you’ve done with the opportunities you have had and created that matters.

    As far as Sunak is concerned, it sounds like his father and grandfather are the ones we should actually be voting for.

    Meanwhile Truss, seems to be creating a myth of early hard times (selling out a decent schools and comfortable, loving middle class upbringing) to excuse an unexceptional career.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,279
    My ballot papers have arrived and will be voting for Sunak this morning. Though more in hope than expectation
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,279
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ukraine’s military destroys 6 ammunition depots in southern Ukraine.

    Operational Command “South” said it killed 79 Russian troops and destroyed four tanks, two howitzers, an artillery installation, a radar station, and 22 armored and military vehicles on Aug. 5.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1555756841828769792

    This video was interesting.

    The #UkrainianArmy is preparing to participate in the #Kherson referendum. We believe the vote will be nothing short of decisive. https://t.co/goNi3qaJEH

    This is a column of Polish upgraded T72 tanks, and by the look of the fields a recent one, in broad daylight and ostensibly in Kherson Oblast. It is the new Tank Brigade, clearly not afraid of being seen or bombed.

    Both sides are keying up Kherson to be the next battle. The Russians have shifted 20 or so BTGs from the Donbas too.

    I think that the Ukranians choose to fight the next battle there, away from the urban areas of the Donbas, and with short supply lines of their own, and long, tenuous and vulnerable Russian supply lines, with the rivers and bridges limiting the Russian ability to counter manoeuvre. I expect targeted attrition of the Russians rather than an all out assault on Kherson City. Amnesty International should approve.

    No, they'll accuse the Ukrainians of breaking international law by denying supplies to the Russians. I really don't know what planet Agnes Callamard is on.
    Pro-Russian opinion is surprisingly common in France.
    It's probably a holdover from the says when France had a very large and electorally successful communist party. Most ex-communists now vote RN.
    In the runoff v Macron maybe, otherwise they would vote for Melenchon who is anti NATO as well as hard left
    A lot of industrial seats that were once communist strongholds in the North, now vote RN.
    Some also voted for Melenchon's party in the legislative elections
  • HYUFD said:

    My ballot papers have arrived and will be voting for Sunak this morning. Though more in hope than expectation

    "We public schoolboys have to stick together, you know!"
  • Seems to me that implicitly Truss is letting the Red Wall go
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    Sky news reporting Israeli military have launched strikes on Gaza City amid heavy tensions. I think I need to check my muted words on Twitter.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    “The blob” is a contemptible concept, being an information free substitute for any genuine analysis of what it purportedly labels.
    One of Gove’s laziest ideas.

    It was a brilliant debating technique which has enough truth in it that everyone immediately knows what he is talking about. But it is not a policy for education, the economy or anything else.
    The only ‘truth’ it contains is the statement ‘I share your prejudice’.
    It’s not even a tool for analysis, let alone a policy. It’s just a slogan.
  • DavidL said:

    In Sunak and Truss the Tories have 2 articulate, well educated, moderately competent potential leaders. They both have flaws, and both will seriously struggle to cope with the problems we have right now. Sunak is the more small c Conservative one, dubious about the ability of the state to do much and keener to leave things to private enterprise and the hidden hand of the market. Truss is keener to have government do things, to take more risks and will undoubtedly be more activist.

    Have either of them got a real handle on the mess that they are inheriting with inflation rampant, QE, high taxes but very poorly performing public services, low productivity and investment, an ongoing balance of payments problem, Andrew Bailey, Ukraine, gas prices, etc etc? Not really, but then who does?

    Are you sure that Sunak trusts the market and Truss is interventionist? A case could be made for the opposite. Rishi gave us furloughs, eat out to help out, council tax rebates and cold weather payments. Liz Truss has signed FTAs with no protection for our own farming industry and no limits on welfare standards.

    On Corporation tax, Rishi has tax breaks for investment and R&D, while Liz wants a low rate and to let companies get on with it (where "it" based on the last decade is pocketing the cash and not investing).

    So maybe Liz Truss is the market purist and Rishi Sunak the interventionist.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    edited August 2022
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    Sunak could win the next election. Truss cannot. So it depends if you want to be a purist and lose or not...
    Apart from Leon, who is hoping she will make BDSM compulsory, do we actually have any Truss supporters in here?
    Bartholomew is the big Truss fan. I'm surprised there aren't more.
    Given the hard time they'd get if they posted here there'll be lurking/staying silent.

    This board hates Truss.
    Andrew Neil has a good take on this. It’s a good take because it agrees with what I’ve been saying for weeks!

    Rishi is the ‘blob’ candidate, and the same blob that got Johnson are coming for Truss straight away

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11085647/ANDREW-NEIL-Liz-Trusss-biggest-foe-wont-Starmer-vitrolic-campaign-Left-Blob.html

    But it is not Starmer Truss has to worry about. It is what is best described as the Left Blob, which is now omnipresent in British public life, dominant in the citadels of power, including most of the media (above all the broadcasters), the Civil Service, the NHS, the legal system (including the judiciary), education (especially the universities), social media, most public bodies and private charities.”
    To be honest I worry when I see that sort of thing because it so echoes the right wing loons of America.

    If you take the people running the NHS, for example, do you really believe that they are there as jobsworths or to protect the system which has given them such a comfortable life? I don't. I see people trying to do their best in very difficult circumstances, trying to manage something too big to manage efficiently, facing almost infinite demand with limited resources and trying to patch one problem after another and who don't think yet another reorganisation is likely to be the answer.

    The problem with the loons is that they think three word slogans (I seem to recall that in the more sophisticated times of the West WIng it was as many as 5) are an answer. But they are no solution; they are a direction at best. Government is way more difficult than they would have you believe.
    The real problem is that the type of people with the skills (and nowadays even more critically, any experience) to manage complex situations with conflicting stakeholders and multiple human factors either aren't interested in being politicians in the first place, or don't have the skills needed to push their way up to the top.

    A related problem is that politics is a career where the large lower part of the pyramid is full of roles where you do campaigning and communication but no real management, or even thinking (your being there to vote as you are told) hence you don't get tested and the only relevant experience you get is, just maybe, following someone senior around watching them do it. The decisions that shape our lives are all taken by an extraordinarily small number of people at the top, most of whom haven't needed to develop the critical skills on the way up.

    To be fair, the latter can work if you have able and experienced people on the management side and are content to stick to doing the presentation and political bits - you could say that, other than the money wasted on multiple grandiose schemes, Johnson's term as London Mayor is a good example, or perhaps Reagan's presidency. Even Thatcher was known for trusting her ministers and senior officials with discretion to 'just get on with things' more than is the case nowadays.

    But as politics has become more hands-on, and the combined effect of politicians wanting to make their mark by re-organising everything and preferring officials who agree with them to ones who are effective - plus perhaps greater media scrutiny and less deference forcing senior people to answer for everything including the small stuff - it becomes more difficult do that sort of 'chairman/woman' style of politics.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    edited August 2022

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    There are plenty of anti Truss comments on PB from current and recent Tories. The biggest concern I would have about her ability to change her deeply held convictions. She says she is on a political journey. I wonder where that journey will take her once elected to the top job.
    Well, quite. I just don't know what I will get. And I will also be culpable if I vote for her.

    I don't need that on my conscience.
    Plato argued that our political leaders should be older, because you could choose them on based on what they had done with their lives rather than just on what they promise to do.

    On that basis neither candidate is stellar and it makes me wish once more that Ben Wallace had stayed in the race.
    It seems the only way you can really succeed in politics these days is to assiduously network at university, join the youth branch, train up, get a job in Westminster/union/campaign group/think-tank and then convert to the candidates list.

    If I ever did it (which I won't) I probably wouldn't do it until my 50s, and then only for 10-15 years.
    Kemi Badenoch, whatever one thinks of her politics, proves you wrong.

    If you’re saying that you have to be consumed by politics to seek a career in it, your probably right. But that’s not exactly surprising.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,279

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    There are plenty of anti Truss comments on PB from current and recent Tories. The biggest concern I would have about her ability to change her deeply held convictions. She says she is on a political journey. I wonder where that journey will take her once elected to the top job.
    Well, quite. I just don't know what I will get. And I will also be culpable if I vote for her.

    I don't need that on my conscience.
    Plato argued that our political leaders should be older, because you could choose them on based on what they had done with their lives rather than just on what they promise to do.

    On that basis neither candidate is stellar and it makes me wish once more that Ben Wallace had stayed in the race.
    It seems the only way you can really succeed in politics these days is to assiduously network at university, join the youth branch, train up, get a job in Westminster/union/campaign group/think-tank and then convert to the candidates list.

    If I ever did it (which I won't) I probably wouldn't do it until my 50s, and then only for 10-15 years.
    Only partly true. Cameron and Blair were never in the Oxford Union, Blair not even in the Labour club. Blair was
    a lawyer before Parliament, Boris a journalist, IDS in the army, May worked for the Bank of England. Even William Hague worked for McKinsey and Shell despite having been President of the Oxford Union and Conservative Association.

    Sunak was not that involved in university politics and was a banker. Truss was but as a LD but became an accountant. Starmer was a lawyer and Head of the CPS.



  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    edited August 2022

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    You did because it's our country too.

    Partisans for the most part in this country seem to be Conservatives or non-Conservatives. No one outside some parts of the Parliamentary Labour Party have any enthusiasm for a Labour Government certainly not that like that seen in 1997. Talk to anyone in the street and they detest the Labour Party and all it stands for. Left or Right of the political spectrum.

    Essentially we are a Conservative nation that for the last seventy years has seen less than 25 years of non- Conservative Governments. Are we not allowed to be alarmed if a prospective Prime Minister promotes potentially dangerous economic policy that could make us all poorer?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    “The blob” is a contemptible concept, being an information free substitute for any genuine analysis of what it purportedly labels.
    One of Gove’s laziest ideas.

    It was a brilliant debating technique which has enough truth in it that everyone immediately knows what he is talking about. But it is not a policy for education, the economy or anything else.
    There is definite evidence of systemic, protected policy at The Treasury & DfE

    The DfE institutional policy appears to be insane. It’s not a definite attempt to prevent the education of children - it’s totally gonzo. To the point where you start wondering which is worse - Cummings or The Experts.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    In Sunak and Truss the Tories have 2 articulate, well educated, moderately competent potential leaders. They both have flaws, and both will seriously struggle to cope with the problems we have right now. Sunak is the more small c Conservative one, dubious about the ability of the state to do much and keener to leave things to private enterprise and the hidden hand of the market. Truss is keener to have government do things, to take more risks and will undoubtedly be more activist.

    Have either of them got a real handle on the mess that they are inheriting with inflation rampant, QE, high taxes but very poorly performing public services, low productivity and investment, an ongoing balance of payments problem, Andrew Bailey, Ukraine, gas prices, etc etc? Not really, but then who does?

    Shouldn't that be 'the mess the they helped to create'?
    Not really in that most of the mess predates their time in politics. But I would agree that so far they have done little to address it. IT was famously a temporary measure to fund the Napoleonic wars. Most things in government start with temporary measures that become permanent. But the emergency steps taken after the GFC have become our economic policy for the last 14 years, and not just in this country. However justifiable they were at the time they were not a long term solution and they are now breaking down.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,599
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    Sunak could win the next election. Truss cannot. So it depends if you want to be a purist and lose or not...
    Apart from Leon, who is hoping she will make BDSM compulsory, do we actually have any Truss supporters in here?
    Bartholomew is the big Truss fan. I'm surprised there aren't more.
    Given the hard time they'd get if they posted here there'll be lurking/staying silent.

    This board hates Truss.
    Andrew Neil has a good take on this. It’s a good take because it agrees with what I’ve been saying for weeks!

    Rishi is the ‘blob’ candidate, and the same blob that got Johnson are coming for Truss straight away

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11085647/ANDREW-NEIL-Liz-Trusss-biggest-foe-wont-Starmer-vitrolic-campaign-Left-Blob.html

    But it is not Starmer Truss has to worry about. It is what is best described as the Left Blob, which is now omnipresent in British public life, dominant in the citadels of power, including most of the media (above all the broadcasters), the Civil Service, the NHS, the legal system (including the judiciary), education (especially the universities), social media, most public bodies and private charities.”
    You forgot to mention the Illuminati, the deep state conspiracy and the lizard aliens?
    The Tories have been in power for 12 years and are still convinced a "Left Blob" runs the country. It is a bonkers obsession that just shows up their delusional paranoia and insecurity.
    If the leftish blob truly rules the government after 12 years of Tory govt then the entire set of Tory MPs over that time should resign en masse for gross incompetence.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    edited August 2022

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    You did because it's our country too.

    Partisans for the most part in this country seem to be Conservatives or non-Conservatives. No one outside some parts of the Parliamentary Labour Party have any enthusiasm for a Labour Government certainly not that like that seen in 1997. Talk to anyone in the street and they detest the Labour Party and all it stands for. Left or Right of the political spectrum.

    Essentially we are a Conservative nation that for the last seventy years has seen less than 25 years of non- Conservative Governments. Are we not allowed to be alarmed if a prospective Prime Minister promotes potentially dangerous economic policy that could make us all poorer?
    https://youtu.be/a_b01PNYV4s (Start at 1.30)
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    Jake Berry on Sky News. Truss to offer hope not handouts.

    And will the energy companies accept "hope" in payment for providing heating?
    The strange thing is we all know the reality is that they will need to offer massive subsidies on heating this winter. Why not get ahead of the curve and own it rather than spend the next three months saying help is a bad thing and then do a last minute u-turn?
    There is something very frivolous about this campaign. They are not addressing the very real concerns people have and are making ludicrous promises to a narrow group people that will either harm the rest of us or that they will have to break pretty soon after taking office.

    It is fundamentally unserious.

    FWIW Husband is voting Sunak. But with no enthusiasm at all. Like choosing between being infested with fleas or lice.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    edited August 2022

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    “The blob” is a contemptible concept, being an information free substitute for any genuine analysis of what it purportedly labels.
    One of Gove’s laziest ideas.

    It was a brilliant debating technique which has enough truth in it that everyone immediately knows what he is talking about. But it is not a policy for education, the economy or anything else.
    There is definite evidence of systemic, protected policy at The Treasury & DfE

    The DfE institutional policy appears to be insane. It’s not a definite attempt to prevent the education of children - it’s totally gonzo. To the point where you start wondering which is worse - Cummings or The Experts.
    The experts are teachers, and nobody ever asks us.

    The DfE are experts in being patronising twats, fucking things up and getting drunk. Not education.

    Edit - also I would suggest 'appears to be' is superfluous.

    How's that rocket coming?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    Anyway, whatever the problem is the best answer is cake and I am off to get some. Laters
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    edited August 2022
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    There are plenty of anti Truss comments on PB from current and recent Tories. The biggest concern I would have about her ability to change her deeply held convictions. She says she is on a political journey. I wonder where that journey will take her once elected to the top job.
    Well, quite. I just don't know what I will get. And I will also be culpable if I vote for her.

    I don't need that on my conscience.
    Plato argued that our political leaders should be older, because you could choose them on based on what they had done with their lives rather than just on what they promise to do.

    On that basis neither candidate is stellar and it makes me wish once more that Ben Wallace had stayed in the race.
    It seems the only way you can really succeed in politics these days is to assiduously network at university, join the youth branch, train up, get a job in Westminster/union/campaign group/think-tank and then convert to the candidates list.

    If I ever did it (which I won't) I probably wouldn't do it until my 50s, and then only for 10-15 years.
    Only partly true. Cameron and Blair were never in the Oxford Union, Blair not even in the Labour club. Blair was
    a lawyer before Parliament, Boris a journalist, IDS in the army, May worked for the Bank of England. Even William Hague worked for McKinsey and Shell despite having been President of the Oxford Union and Conservative Association.

    Sunak was not that involved in university politics and was a banker. Truss was but as a LD but became an accountant. Starmer was a lawyer and Head of the CPS.



    You can differentiate between those who had jobs between Oxford and a planned, early entry into politics and those that had a genuine career before they went into politics later. From your list, only IDS, Starmer and maybe Blair are on the latter group.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    There are plenty of anti Truss comments on PB from current and recent Tories. The biggest concern I would have about her ability to change her deeply held convictions. She says she is on a political journey. I wonder where that journey will take her once elected to the top job.
    Well, quite. I just don't know what I will get. And I will also be culpable if I vote for her.

    I don't need that on my conscience.
    Plato argued that our political leaders should be older, because you could choose them on based on what they had done with their lives rather than just on what they promise to do.

    On that basis neither candidate is stellar and it makes me wish once more that Ben Wallace had stayed in the race.
    It seems the only way you can really succeed in politics these days is to assiduously network at university, join the youth branch, train up, get a job in Westminster/union/campaign group/think-tank and then convert to the candidates list.

    If I ever did it (which I won't) I probably wouldn't do it until my 50s, and then only for 10-15 years.
    Only partly true. Cameron and Blair were never in the Oxford Union, Blair not even in the Labour club. Blair was
    a lawyer before Parliament, Boris a journalist, IDS in the army, May worked for the Bank of England. Even William Hague worked for McKinsey and Shell despite having been President of the Oxford Union and Conservative Association.

    Sunak was not that involved in university politics and was a banker. Truss was but as a LD but became an accountant. Starmer was a lawyer and Head of the CPS.



    Nevertheless it's true that people typically get involved professionally in politics, either as elected politicians or starting behind the scenes, much younger than used to be the case, and their professional experience - Truss's of accountancy, for example - really not amounting to much more than some work experience very junior in an organisation while they devoted most of their time and energy to 'finding a seat'.

    I knew Alan Johnson (professionally) before he, quite suddenly (which is a story in itself, in which I had a bit part) switched from running one of the country's largest unions to becoming a backbench MP. He was sensible enough to a deal with Blair that promised him future advancement up at least the lower rungs of the political ladder, but he was told he had to do his years on the backbenches and as an unpaid PPS carrying some minister's papers around, before he could hope to gain any real responsibility in government. To his credit he worked through this and, probably to his surprise, made it to Home Secretary, as we know. But as a former big union leader he surely had a lot more contacts and favours to call in than someone entering politics in middle age from a regular career. Indeed as an elected trade unionist he was effectively a professional politician already.
  • ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    “The blob” is a contemptible concept, being an information free substitute for any genuine analysis of what it purportedly labels.
    One of Gove’s laziest ideas.

    It was a brilliant debating technique which has enough truth in it that everyone immediately knows what he is talking about. But it is not a policy for education, the economy or anything else.
    There is definite evidence of systemic, protected policy at The Treasury & DfE

    The DfE institutional policy appears to be insane. It’s not a definite attempt to prevent the education of children - it’s totally gonzo. To the point where you start wondering which is worse - Cummings or The Experts.
    The experts are teachers, and nobody ever asks us.

    The DfE are experts in being patronising twats, fucking things up and getting drunk. Not education.

    Edit - also I would suggest 'appears to be' is superfluous.

    How's that rocket coming?
    Are teachers the experts? They are practitioners and must of course be consulted. Take medicine as an analogy. If the GP or physician with prescription pad is the equivalent of the teacher, who are the analogues of the chemists, biochemists and molecular biologists in the university and drug company research labs? Maybe we should chuck more research grants at psychologists.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,686

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    There are plenty of anti Truss comments on PB from current and recent Tories. The biggest concern I would have about her ability to change her deeply held convictions. She says she is on a political journey. I wonder where that journey will take her once elected to the top job.
    Well, quite. I just don't know what I will get. And I will also be culpable if I vote for her.

    I don't need that on my conscience.
    I guess her first cabinet will provide a clue - will the talent in the party get promoted or will deadwood like JRM and Dorries stay in place?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    Sunak could win the next election. Truss cannot. So it depends if you want to be a purist and lose or not...
    Apart from Leon, who is hoping she will make BDSM compulsory, do we actually have any Truss supporters in here?
    Bartholomew is the big Truss fan. I'm surprised there aren't more.
    Given the hard time they'd get if they posted here there'll be lurking/staying silent.

    This board hates Truss.
    Andrew Neil has a good take on this. It’s a good take because it agrees with what I’ve been saying for weeks!

    Rishi is the ‘blob’ candidate, and the same blob that got Johnson are coming for Truss straight away

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11085647/ANDREW-NEIL-Liz-Trusss-biggest-foe-wont-Starmer-vitrolic-campaign-Left-Blob.html

    But it is not Starmer Truss has to worry about. It is what is best described as the Left Blob, which is now omnipresent in British public life, dominant in the citadels of power, including most of the media (above all the broadcasters), the Civil Service, the NHS, the legal system (including the judiciary), education (especially the universities), social media, most public bodies and private charities.”
    You forgot to mention the Illuminati, the deep state conspiracy and the lizard aliens?
    The Tories have been in power for 12 years and are still convinced a "Left Blob" runs the country. It is a bonkers obsession that just shows up their delusional paranoia and insecurity.
    I think it's more that those politicians who are driven by faith and conviction, in the absence of any evidence, rub up against a whole load of mostly sensible, educated people used to making pragmatic decisions based on the facts - and it is easier to paint them as some sort of conspiracy than face the possibility that, just maybe, some of their political convictions won't play out very well in the real world?
    Another aspect to this is, once again, our voting system, which gives majority power to politicians whose views are shared by about a third of the population. With their majority they come to assume that they rightfully represent the country, and are surprised when they find that the majority of people they meet don't share their views.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,599
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    Jake Berry on Sky News. Truss to offer hope not handouts.

    And will the energy companies accept "hope" in payment for providing heating?
    The strange thing is we all know the reality is that they will need to offer massive subsidies on heating this winter. Why not get ahead of the curve and own it rather than spend the next three months saying help is a bad thing and then do a last minute u-turn?
    There is something very frivolous about this campaign. They are not addressing the very real concerns people have and are making ludicrous promises to a narrow group people that will either harm the rest of us or that they will have to break pretty soon after taking office.

    It is fundamentally unserious.

    FWIW Husband is voting Sunak. But with no enthusiasm at all. Like choosing between being infested with fleas or lice.
    The problem is a significant chunk of the few people who have a vote live in a fantasy world. Be serious, tell them the truth, or even closer to the truth than your rival and you lose.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    Sunak could win the next election. Truss cannot. So it depends if you want to be a purist and lose or not...
    Apart from Leon, who is hoping she will make BDSM compulsory, do we actually have any Truss supporters in here?
    Bartholomew is the big Truss fan. I'm surprised there aren't more.
    Given the hard time they'd get if they posted here there'll be lurking/staying silent.

    This board hates Truss.
    Andrew Neil has a good take on this. It’s a good take because it agrees with what I’ve been saying for weeks!

    Rishi is the ‘blob’ candidate, and the same blob that got Johnson are coming for Truss straight away

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11085647/ANDREW-NEIL-Liz-Trusss-biggest-foe-wont-Starmer-vitrolic-campaign-Left-Blob.html

    But it is not Starmer Truss has to worry about. It is what is best described as the Left Blob, which is now omnipresent in British public life, dominant in the citadels of power, including most of the media (above all the broadcasters), the Civil Service, the NHS, the legal system (including the judiciary), education (especially the universities), social media, most public bodies and private charities.”
    You forgot to mention the Illuminati, the deep state conspiracy and the lizard aliens?
    The Tories have been in power for 12 years and are still convinced a "Left Blob" runs the country. It is a bonkers obsession that just shows up their delusional paranoia and insecurity.
    If the leftish blob truly rules the government after 12 years of Tory govt then the entire set of Tory MPs over that time should resign en masse for gross incompetence.
    You get that in all power blocs.

    OFSTED are currently demanding more powers because they're worried that education standards have slipped.

    Well, they've been around now for 33 years and become progressively more powerful and intrusive. If education standards are going down, whose fault do the silly bastards think that is?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    edited August 2022
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    Jake Berry on Sky News. Truss to offer hope not handouts.

    And will the energy companies accept "hope" in payment for providing heating?
    The strange thing is we all know the reality is that they will need to offer massive subsidies on heating this winter. Why not get ahead of the curve and own it rather than spend the next three months saying help is a bad thing and then do a last minute u-turn?
    There is something very frivolous about this campaign. They are not addressing the very real concerns people have and are making ludicrous promises to a narrow group people that will either harm the rest of us or that they will have to break pretty soon after taking office.

    It is fundamentally unserious.

    FWIW Husband is voting Sunak. But with no enthusiasm at all. Like choosing between being infested with fleas or lice.
    The trouble with Sunak is he's clearly saying stuff he doesn't believe just to win the Leadership election.

    That's an open goal for Keir Starmer.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,686
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    Sunak could win the next election. Truss cannot. So it depends if you want to be a purist and lose or not...
    Apart from Leon, who is hoping she will make BDSM compulsory, do we actually have any Truss supporters in here?
    Bartholomew is the big Truss fan. I'm surprised there aren't more.
    Given the hard time they'd get if they posted here there'll be lurking/staying silent.

    This board hates Truss.
    Andrew Neil has a good take on this. It’s a good take because it agrees with what I’ve been saying for weeks!

    Rishi is the ‘blob’ candidate, and the same blob that got Johnson are coming for Truss straight away

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11085647/ANDREW-NEIL-Liz-Trusss-biggest-foe-wont-Starmer-vitrolic-campaign-Left-Blob.html

    But it is not Starmer Truss has to worry about. It is what is best described as the Left Blob, which is now omnipresent in British public life, dominant in the citadels of power, including most of the media (above all the broadcasters), the Civil Service, the NHS, the legal system (including the judiciary), education (especially the universities), social media, most public bodies and private charities.”
    Johnson got Johnson. You can't blame the media on the fact he was bone idle, promoted non-entities and continually lied.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,314

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    There are plenty of anti Truss comments on PB from current and recent Tories. The biggest concern I would have about her ability to change her deeply held convictions. She says she is on a political journey. I wonder where that journey will take her once elected to the top job.
    Well, quite. I just don't know what I will get. And I will also be culpable if I vote for her.

    I don't need that on my conscience.
    Plato argued that our political leaders should be older, because you could choose them on based on what they had done with their lives rather than just on what they promise to do.

    On that basis neither candidate is stellar and it makes me wish once more that Ben Wallace had stayed in the race.
    It seems the only way you can really succeed in politics these days is to assiduously network at university, join the youth branch, train up, get a job in Westminster/union/campaign group/think-tank and then convert to the candidates list.

    If I ever did it (which I won't) I probably wouldn't do it until my 50s, and then only for 10-15 years.
    Yes, you should wait until you've veered to the right, as apparently everybody does as they get older.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    There are plenty of anti Truss comments on PB from current and recent Tories. The biggest concern I would have about her ability to change her deeply held convictions. She says she is on a political journey. I wonder where that journey will take her once elected to the top job.
    Well, quite. I just don't know what I will get. And I will also be culpable if I vote for her.

    I don't need that on my conscience.
    Plato argued that our political leaders should be older, because you could choose them on based on what they had done with their lives rather than just on what they promise to do.

    On that basis neither candidate is stellar and it makes me wish once more that Ben Wallace had stayed in the race.
    It seems the only way you can really succeed in politics these days is to assiduously network at university, join the youth branch, train up, get a job in Westminster/union/campaign group/think-tank and then convert to the candidates list.

    If I ever did it (which I won't) I probably wouldn't do it until my 50s, and then only for 10-15 years.
    Yes, you should wait until you've veered to the right, as apparently everybody does as they get older.
    I'm not. If anything, I feel like I'm getting more liberal.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    boulay said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    Jake Berry on Sky News. Truss to offer hope not handouts.

    And will the energy companies accept "hope" in payment for providing heating?
    The strange thing is we all know the reality is that they will need to offer massive subsidies on heating this winter. Why not get ahead of the curve and own it rather than spend the next three months saying help is a bad thing and then do a last minute u-turn?
    There is something very frivolous about this campaign. They are not addressing the very real concerns people have and are making ludicrous promises to a narrow group people that will either harm the rest of us or that they will have to break pretty soon after taking office.

    It is fundamentally unserious.

    FWIW Husband is voting Sunak. But with no enthusiasm at all. Like choosing between being infested with fleas or lice.
    I haven’t watched the debates or hustings but on your concern about the frivolity wouldn’t it be helpful if the questioners asked detailed questions about key issues of the CofL instead of asking “what’s the naughtiest thing you’ve done” or “did you stab Boris in the back”?

    It really doesn’t help that the media seems to be as childish as politics these days and as I wrote earlier, a return to the country being boring and serious would be welcome.

    I remember that not that long ago the BBC put the no confidence debate from 1979 - which I vaguely remember as a child - up on iPlayer, and it is staggering to realise how serious and skilled (in terms of both the content and the technique of the debate) politics was back then. Similarly the sort of political programmes we got on the media - such as Walden's Weekend World with its weekly half hour analysis of some topical political issue followed by an in-depth long-interview with the politician responsible.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    boulay said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    Jake Berry on Sky News. Truss to offer hope not handouts.

    And will the energy companies accept "hope" in payment for providing heating?
    The strange thing is we all know the reality is that they will need to offer massive subsidies on heating this winter. Why not get ahead of the curve and own it rather than spend the next three months saying help is a bad thing and then do a last minute u-turn?
    There is something very frivolous about this campaign. They are not addressing the very real concerns people have and are making ludicrous promises to a narrow group people that will either harm the rest of us or that they will have to break pretty soon after taking office.

    It is fundamentally unserious.

    FWIW Husband is voting Sunak. But with no enthusiasm at all. Like choosing between being infested with fleas or lice.
    I haven’t watched the debates or hustings but on your concern about the frivolity wouldn’t it be helpful if the questioners asked detailed questions about key issues of the CofL instead of asking “what’s the naughtiest thing you’ve done” or “did you stab Boris in the back”?

    It really doesn’t help that the media seems to be as childish as politics these days and as I wrote earlier, a return to the country being boring and serious would be welcome.
    Yes. It beats me why being "a bit of a card" is thought to be part of the skillset needed for governing the country.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    Sunak could win the next election. Truss cannot. So it depends if you want to be a purist and lose or not...
    Apart from Leon, who is hoping she will make BDSM compulsory, do we actually have any Truss supporters in here?
    Bartholomew is the big Truss fan. I'm surprised there aren't more.
    Given the hard time they'd get if they posted here there'll be lurking/staying silent.

    This board hates Truss.
    Andrew Neil has a good take on this. It’s a good take because it agrees with what I’ve been saying for weeks!

    Rishi is the ‘blob’ candidate, and the same blob that got Johnson are coming for Truss straight away

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11085647/ANDREW-NEIL-Liz-Trusss-biggest-foe-wont-Starmer-vitrolic-campaign-Left-Blob.html

    But it is not Starmer Truss has to worry about. It is what is best described as the Left Blob, which is now omnipresent in British public life, dominant in the citadels of power, including most of the media (above all the broadcasters), the Civil Service, the NHS, the legal system (including the judiciary), education (especially the universities), social media, most public bodies and private charities.”
    You forgot to mention the Illuminati, the deep state conspiracy and the lizard aliens?
    The Tories have been in power for 12 years and are still convinced a "Left Blob" runs the country. It is a bonkers obsession that just shows up their delusional paranoia and insecurity.
    I think it's more that those politicians who are driven by faith and conviction, in the absence of any evidence, rub up against a whole load of mostly sensible, educated people used to making pragmatic decisions based on the facts - and it is easier to paint them as some sort of conspiracy than face the possibility that, just maybe, some of their political convictions won't play out very well in the real world?
    Another aspect to this is, once again, our voting system, which gives majority power to politicians whose views are shared by about a third of the population. With their majority they come to assume that they rightfully represent the country, and are surprised when they find that the majority of people they meet don't share their views.
    That’s a really important point. It’s been my long term view that we’ve not had a genuinely popular politician in the UK. The system inflates their egos and wrecks their performance.

    Blair, Cameron, Thatcher and Boris were all damaged by this.

    A parliamentary majority that gives you 100% of the government’s power, is usually granted on 30-40% active support of the electorate, with most voters either voting against you or staying at home. 2005 was the worst example of that, but all governments need to remember that fact.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    “The blob” is a contemptible concept, being an information free substitute for any genuine analysis of what it purportedly labels.
    One of Gove’s laziest ideas.

    It was a brilliant debating technique which has enough truth in it that everyone immediately knows what he is talking about. But it is not a policy for education, the economy or anything else.
    There is definite evidence of systemic, protected policy at The Treasury & DfE

    The DfE institutional policy appears to be insane. It’s not a definite attempt to prevent the education of children - it’s totally gonzo. To the point where you start wondering which is worse - Cummings or The Experts.
    The experts are teachers, and nobody ever asks us.

    The DfE are experts in being patronising twats, fucking things up and getting drunk. Not education.

    Edit - also I would suggest 'appears to be' is superfluous.

    How's that rocket coming?
    I would think, personally, that an expert in education would have the following

    1) taught in the current system
    2) academic study on education theories and ideas - particularly other systems around the world. Actually experience of other systems, extra points
    3) taken said theory into the classroom themselves.
    4) has a list of what they got wrong.

    If I were education minister, I would want several policy generation groups, composed of such people, with a levening of outside experts from IT, law, health, logistics etc

    Say at least 3 separate groups - base them separately and try to avoid group think from one group getting to all the others.

    Thinking maybe 20 or so per group…

    Take their recommendations, build some well organised experiments in attempting to improve education. Experiments run by a separate group with a specific remit for that. Measure the results.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    Jake Berry on Sky News. Truss to offer hope not handouts.

    And will the energy companies accept "hope" in payment for providing heating?
    The strange thing is we all know the reality is that they will need to offer massive subsidies on heating this winter. Why not get ahead of the curve and own it rather than spend the next three months saying help is a bad thing and then do a last minute u-turn?
    There is something very frivolous about this campaign. They are not addressing the very real concerns people have and are making ludicrous promises to a narrow group people that will either harm the rest of us or that they will have to break pretty soon after taking office.

    It is fundamentally unserious.

    FWIW Husband is voting Sunak. But with no enthusiasm at all. Like choosing between being infested with fleas or lice.
    The problem is a significant chunk of the few people who have a vote live in a fantasy world. Be serious, tell them the truth, or even closer to the truth than your rival and you lose.
    And there's no electoral gratitude in politics for being right if what you want doesn't get done, and precious little for actually doing the right thing; just punishment for being wrong. And no accountability or credit at all for any big, long-term decision where the benefits (or damage) don't appear until later.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,947
    edited August 2022
    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    Jake Berry on Sky News. Truss to offer hope not handouts.

    And will the energy companies accept "hope" in payment for providing heating?
    The strange thing is we all know the reality is that they will need to offer massive subsidies on heating this winter. Why not get ahead of the curve and own it rather than spend the next three months saying help is a bad thing and then do a last minute u-turn?
    There is something very frivolous about this campaign. They are not addressing the very real concerns people have and are making ludicrous promises to a narrow group people that will either harm the rest of us or that they will have to break pretty soon after taking office.

    It is fundamentally unserious.

    FWIW Husband is voting Sunak. But with no enthusiasm at all. Like choosing between being infested with fleas or lice.
    The trouble with Sunak is he's clearly saying stuff he doesn't believe just to win the Leadership election.

    That's an open goal for Keir Starmer.
    Except that Keir did exactly the same during his leadership campaign. And to a much greater extent.

    And now, unbelievably, poses as Mr Integrity.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,412
    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    Jake Berry on Sky News. Truss to offer hope not handouts.

    And will the energy companies accept "hope" in payment for providing heating?
    The strange thing is we all know the reality is that they will need to offer massive subsidies on heating this winter. Why not get ahead of the curve and own it rather than spend the next three months saying help is a bad thing and then do a last minute u-turn?
    There is something very frivolous about this campaign. They are not addressing the very real concerns people have and are making ludicrous promises to a narrow group people that will either harm the rest of us or that they will have to break pretty soon after taking office.

    It is fundamentally unserious.

    FWIW Husband is voting Sunak. But with no enthusiasm at all. Like choosing between being infested with fleas or lice.
    I haven’t watched the debates or hustings but on your concern about the frivolity wouldn’t it be helpful if the questioners asked detailed questions about key issues of the CofL instead of asking “what’s the naughtiest thing you’ve done” or “did you stab Boris in the back”?

    It really doesn’t help that the media seems to be as childish as politics these days and as I wrote earlier, a return to the country being boring and serious would be welcome.
    Yes. It beats me why being "a bit of a card"
    is thought to be part of the skillset needed for governing the country.
    It’s been a bit like an inverse of the Blair “Cool Britannia” phase over last six or so years.

    Then we had a fresh new government with ideas, looking professional and serious about running the country and the bands and celebs were crazy, partying, picking fights, getting up to mischief.

    Recently it’s been the politicians acting like the celebs and bands with the celebs leading on poverty, cultural issues, environment etc.

    Just waiting for a picture on a magazine cover of Boris and Carrie curled up together on a bed with a Union Jack duvet cover. Sorry for that grim image.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,362
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    Jake Berry on Sky News. Truss to offer hope not handouts.

    And will the energy companies accept "hope" in payment for providing heating?
    The strange thing is we all know the reality is that they will need to offer massive subsidies on heating this winter. Why not get ahead of the curve and own it rather than spend the next three months saying help is a bad thing and then do a last minute u-turn?
    There is something very frivolous about this campaign. They are not addressing the very real concerns people have and are making ludicrous promises to a narrow group people that will either harm the rest of us or that they will have to break pretty soon after taking office.

    It is fundamentally unserious.

    FWIW Husband is voting Sunak. But with no enthusiasm at all. Like choosing between being infested with fleas or lice.
    Same here. So much for the "most sophisticated electorate on the planet". Any pairing the MPs put forward with Sunak in it was gifting it to the other. He is far and away brighter than Truss, but has all the gravitas of a 5 year old who has eaten a kilo of sugary sweets. He needed a lot of media training.

    So my vote for Sunak is as a "fuck you" to the MPs who gave us this non-choice.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    You did because it's our country too.

    Partisans for the most part in this country seem to be Conservatives or non-Conservatives. No one outside some parts of the Parliamentary Labour Party have any enthusiasm for a Labour Government certainly not that like that seen in 1997. Talk to anyone in the street and they detest the Labour Party and all it stands for. Left or Right of the political spectrum.

    Essentially we are a Conservative nation that for the last seventy years has seen less than 25 years of non- Conservative Governments. Are we not allowed to be alarmed if a prospective Prime Minister promotes potentially dangerous economic policy that could make us all poorer?
    https://youtu.be/a_b01PNYV4s (Start at 1.30)
    Not many Liberals left either. We are all little Conservatives now!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    “The blob” is a contemptible concept, being an information free substitute for any genuine analysis of what it purportedly labels.
    One of Gove’s laziest ideas.

    It was a brilliant debating technique which has enough truth in it that everyone immediately knows what he is talking about. But it is not a policy for education, the economy or anything else.
    There is definite evidence of systemic, protected policy at The Treasury & DfE

    The DfE institutional policy appears to be insane. It’s not a definite attempt to prevent the education of children - it’s totally gonzo. To the point where you start wondering which is worse - Cummings or The Experts.
    The experts are teachers, and nobody ever asks us.

    The DfE are experts in being patronising twats, fucking things up and getting drunk. Not education.

    Edit - also I would suggest 'appears to be' is superfluous.

    How's that rocket coming?
    I would think, personally, that an expert in education would have the following

    1) taught in the current system
    2) academic study on education theories and ideas - particularly other systems around the world. Actually experience of other systems, extra points
    3) taken said theory into the classroom themselves.
    4) has a list of what they got wrong.

    If I were education minister, I would want several policy generation groups, composed of such people, with a levening of outside experts from IT, law, health, logistics etc

    Say at least 3 separate groups - base them separately and try to avoid group think from one group getting to all the others.

    Thinking maybe 20 or so per group…

    Take their recommendations, build some well organised experiments in attempting to improve education. Experiments run by a separate group with a specific remit for that. Measure the results.
    Or. You could just agree with the Daily Mail.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    DavidL said:

    Anyway, whatever the problem is the best answer is cake and I am off to get some. Laters

    Have it, or eat it, or both?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,412

    DavidL said:

    Anyway, whatever the problem is the best answer is cake and I am off to get some. Laters

    Have it, or eat it, or both?
    Or get ambushed by it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    In Sunak and Truss the Tories have 2 articulate, well educated, moderately competent potential leaders. They both have flaws, and both will seriously struggle to cope with the problems we have right now. Sunak is the more small c Conservative one, dubious about the ability of the state to do much and keener to leave things to private enterprise and the hidden hand of the market. Truss is keener to have government do things, to take more risks and will undoubtedly be more activist.

    Have either of them got a real handle on the mess that they are inheriting with inflation rampant, QE, high taxes but very poorly performing public services, low productivity and investment, an ongoing balance of payments problem, Andrew Bailey, Ukraine, gas prices, etc etc? Not really, but then who does?

    Shouldn't that be 'the mess the they helped to create'?
    Not really in that most of the mess predates their time in politics. But I would agree that so far they have done little to address it. IT was famously a temporary measure to fund the Napoleonic wars. Most things in government start with temporary measures that become permanent. But the emergency steps taken after the GFC have become our economic policy for the last 14 years, and not just in this country. However justifiable they were at the time they were not a long term solution and they are now breaking down.
    QE and near zero interest rates - aka plentiful cheap-as-chips money - is the drug that's kept us living beyond our means for years. It's only tenable if inflation is being prevented by other macro factors. Now inflation's here the drug can't be continued because the side effects are too severe and too risky, therefore we'll have to come off it and IMO there is no way, no way at all, to do this without a world of pain. People have to get poorer. So for me the key thing is to drop the fairytales and concentrate on making sure the loss is skewed towards those most able to bear it.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,695

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    You can, of course, build a political strategy centred on lies and delusions. But you cannot run a successful economy on the back of them. This is the problem Liz Truss faces. The real world is unforgiving. And it’s fast approaching.

    Which is the real tragedy of the demise of the clown; the Tories have learned nothing from it, at all.
    You see, posts like this make me want to re-vote for Truss. I still have my paper ballot.

    It's noteworthy that all the anti-Truss comments on here are from non-Tories, and similar with 'likes' for Rishi.

    That makes me wonder if I made the right decision.
    There are plenty of anti Truss comments on PB from current and recent Tories. The biggest concern I would have about her ability to change her deeply held convictions. She says she is on a political journey. I wonder where that journey will take her once elected to the top job.
    Well, quite. I just don't know what I will get. And I will also be culpable if I vote for her.

    I don't need that on my conscience.
    Plato argued that our political leaders should be older, because you could choose them on based on what they had done with their lives rather than just on what they promise to do.

    On that basis neither candidate is stellar and it makes me wish once more that Ben Wallace had stayed in the race.
    It seems the only way you can really succeed in politics these days is to assiduously network at university, join the youth branch, train up, get a job in Westminster/union/campaign group/think-tank and then convert to the candidates list.

    If I ever did it (which I won't) I probably wouldn't do it until my 50s, and then only for 10-15 years.
    Yes, you should wait until you've veered to the right, as apparently everybody does as they get older.
    I'm not. If anything, I feel like I'm getting more liberal.
    Ditto.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    ClippP said:

    The point about *both* candidates is that they are not talking about the people at risk this winter, they are trying to woo the people not at risk. So the winner becomes PM far too late to do anything with the mindset that whatever action they take needs to benefit the people who don't need help.

    Another thing that worries me about both the candidates is that both of them are saying "I will do" this that and the other. It is not a matter of "I will persuade" the Cabinet, the MPs, the Conservative Party, Parliament and least of all the country.

    What they are both seeking to become is a dictator - following in Johnson's footsteps, of course - and forgetting that this country is supposed to be a democracy.

    I want neither of them as prime minister, and the only way to get that is to kick the Tories out of office as soon as may be.
    You make a good point. It would be refreshing if Sunak/Truss were to say: "Under my leadership, I will appoint the most talented people to my Cabinet. We shall return to Cabinet government and a respect for parliamentary democracy, in which both short-term and long-term decisions are debated fully, first in Cabinet, then in Parliament. I shall lead, but I'll listen and won't dictate".

    For all his weaknesses, I suspect there is much more chance of Starmer leading a government that returns to that sort of model.
    "I will appoint the most talented people to my Cabinet". So a Cabinet exclusive of Conservative MPs... ok...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ukraine’s military destroys 6 ammunition depots in southern Ukraine.

    Operational Command “South” said it killed 79 Russian troops and destroyed four tanks, two howitzers, an artillery installation, a radar station, and 22 armored and military vehicles on Aug. 5.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1555756841828769792

    This video was interesting.

    The #UkrainianArmy is preparing to participate in the #Kherson referendum. We believe the vote will be nothing short of decisive. https://t.co/goNi3qaJEH

    This is a column of Polish upgraded T72 tanks, and by the look of the fields a recent one, in broad daylight and ostensibly in Kherson Oblast. It is the new Tank Brigade, clearly not afraid of being seen or bombed.

    Both sides are keying up Kherson to be the next battle. The Russians have shifted 20 or so BTGs from the Donbas too.

    I think that the Ukranians choose to fight the next battle there, away from the urban areas of the Donbas, and with short supply lines of their own, and long, tenuous and vulnerable Russian supply lines, with the rivers and bridges limiting the Russian ability to counter manoeuvre. I expect targeted attrition of the Russians rather than an all out assault on Kherson City. Amnesty International should approve.

    No, they'll accuse the Ukrainians of breaking international law by denying supplies to the Russians. I really don't know what planet Agnes Callamard is on.
    Pro-Russian opinion is surprisingly common in France.
    It's probably a holdover from the says when France had a very large and electorally successful communist party. Most ex-communists now vote RN.
    In the runoff v Macron maybe, otherwise they would vote for Melenchon who is anti NATO as well as hard left
    A lot of industrial seats that were once communist strongholds in the North, now vote RN.
    I wonder if there's a bit more to it than that.

    There's a strong current of opinion in France that believes they and Russia should be the leading powers that bookend Europe to contain Germany.
This discussion has been closed.