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Wallace might top ConHome’s list but he’s still a relative unknown – politicalbetting.com

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  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    glw said:

    Is Carrie briefing against Johnson? Hodges is wondering tonight.

    Could go supernova shortly.

    There is not enough popcorn on planet.

    Why would she do that?
    Woman scorned.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497
    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    While just one poll, Labour's 43% showing is the highest we've seen for the party since Jan this year. This is an insufficient lead over the Conservatives on 35% to be assured of an overall majority were an election called, but Labour would be comfortably the largest party. https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1544043326164176896/photo/1

    The chances of a lab overall majority are more or less Zero. There are three big reasons:
    1) Maths
    2) The Tories are unlikely to be this bad all the time (though Major's lot set a standard in this towards which they may be aspiring, perhaps as a result of a dare)
    3) Policy. Because of Brexit it isn't possible for Labour to set out a stall of real policy difference, ie an ideological platform to win by inspiring. They don't dare take a pro EU line. This is understandable. So they have no choice but to take a line on the biggest issue of the day - UK/EU relations which everyone knows Labour don't really believe or support. and most voters don't believe or support it either. They just think we are stuck.

    As a result Labour plan to win by being less bad than the other lot, not by conviction politics. This does not make for ideological excitement. Nor is it the stuff of landslides.
    I agree, the timidity over Labour's policy direction, which rightly or wrongly is believed by few, is not the way to majority.

    Possibly though Starmer would prefer a minority government.
    It is hard to think what the least worst options are at the moment, as we live in an age in which the largest problems are not common problems seeking consensus solutions but problems of that 52-48 nature in which the absence of consensus about what the problem is, is critical to its nature.

    FWIW I think a solid LD/Lab government is the best option; one which does not need SNP support. If tactical voting really took off this may be possible, though really unlikely. The number of seats that are Lab/LD contests is statistically insignificant.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,632
    Loving the new leaked Liverpool kit.


  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,388
    glw said:

    Is Carrie briefing against Johnson? Hodges is wondering tonight.

    Could go supernova shortly.

    There is not enough popcorn on planet.

    Why would she do that?
    Well, if he's stopped taking her briefs off, they've got to go somewhere.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015

    kle4 said:

    I've been catching up with Designated Survivor on Netflix - this discussion is getting a bit like that, with the most unknown person catapulted into the leadership. I think the Tories may feel they need someone they've seen a fair amount of and know, faults and all. Which might mean Hunt vs Truss.

    Truss at least inherited Harold Macmillan's old Russian fur hat. Surely a sign?
    Yes, a sign of being a prize tit.
    In these fervently anti-hat times it takes courage to plonk one on your head and risk looking a wally. It took me weeks after buying my first one to wear it in public, so I appaud her boldness if not its execution.
    Well, ostrich feathers are not for everyone, so you were right to be cautious.
    Feathers itch. Boas are the biggest fashion disappointment I have ever had. They look so nice but they are so uncomfortable!
    Too constricting?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,361

    1-in-8 Euros received in tax by the Irish government is paid by 10 multinational companies.

    Not the tax dodging ones I assume?
    I think it is, yes, in that they're dodging tax in other jurisdictions to pay tax at a lower rate in Ireland. Makes the Irish budget incredibly vulnerable to decisions by a very small number of people, or to changes in tax law, or the success/failure of a small number of companies.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    edited July 2022

    I think I was the first person on here to tip Wallace, but I think he - like Mordaunt - are really just a black screen upon which Tories can project their fantasies.

    Wallace seems sound but is essentially a grey man, and Mordaunt comes across as flakey with her rather odd pronouncements on trade.

    Judging by the ConHome polling, I’d now say Zarhawi is the one to watch.

    Wallace also beats Zahawi 52% to 28% in the ConHome survey

    https://conservativehome.com/2022/07/04/next-tory-leader-play-offs-fourth-nadhim-zahawi/
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486

    kle4 said:

    I've been catching up with Designated Survivor on Netflix - this discussion is getting a bit like that, with the most unknown person catapulted into the leadership. I think the Tories may feel they need someone they've seen a fair amount of and know, faults and all. Which might mean Hunt vs Truss.

    Truss at least inherited Harold Macmillan's old Russian fur hat. Surely a sign?
    Yes, a sign of being a prize tit.
    In these fervently anti-hat times it takes courage to plonk one on your head and risk looking a wally. It took me weeks after buying my first one to wear it in public, so I appaud her boldness if not its execution.
    Well, ostrich feathers are not for everyone, so you were right to be cautious.
    Feathers itch. Boas are the biggest fashion disappointment I have ever had
    . They look so nice but they are so uncomfortable!
    Too constricting?
    I adder down as a plain scarf lady.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    ...
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    While just one poll, Labour's 43% showing is the highest we've seen for the party since Jan this year. This is an insufficient lead over the Conservatives on 35% to be assured of an overall majority were an election called, but Labour would be comfortably the largest party. https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1544043326164176896/photo/1

    The chances of a lab overall majority are more or less Zero. There are three big reasons:
    1) Maths
    2) The Tories are unlikely to be this bad all the time (though Major's lot set a standard in this towards which they may be aspiring, perhaps as a result of a dare)
    3) Policy. Because of Brexit it isn't possible for Labour to set out a stall of real policy difference, ie an ideological platform to win by inspiring. They don't dare take a pro EU line. This is understandable. So they have no choice but to take a line on the biggest issue of the day - UK/EU relations which everyone knows Labour don't really believe or support. and most voters don't believe or support it either. They just think we are stuck.

    As a result Labour plan to win by being less bad than the other lot, not by conviction politics. This does not make for ideological excitement. Nor is it the stuff of landslides.
    I agree, the timidity over Labour's policy direction, which rightly or wrongly is believed by few, is not the way to majority.

    Possibly though Starmer would prefer a minority government.
    Starmer is doing the right thing in attempting to neutralise Brexit as an election issue. It's not the main priority for most voters and Conservative attempts to try to re-animate the "Get Brexit Done" campaign as "Keep Brexit Done" should be thwarted.

    I want to see what Labour actually proposes to do about the structural deficits in the economy and the deep-rooted problems that they cause for society in the manifesto: who and what are their spending priorities, and who and what are going to pay for them? This may very well turn out to be a damp squib, in which they promise nothing but more efficient management of the existing system and moving a few £bn around its edges, but I'm prepared to reserve judgment until I see what they actually propose.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited July 2022
    Speaking of hats, one of Teddy Roosevelt's gimmicks, was wearing a sombrero-like hat with a verrrrrrrry wide brim, somewhat reminiscent of the cavalry hat he wore charging up San Juan Hill.

    Fiorello LaGuardia, the fighting liberal who was the best mayor in the history of New York (do NOT blame HIM for today's LGA) also wore a big, broad-brimmed Stetson, in conscious imitation I think of TR who was indeed a hero for LaGuardia, himself a pugnacious, progressive Republican insurgent.

    Interesting, both of these hat-lovers were born in New York City, and politically rooted in the city, but each had spent years of quality time in the American West (Roosevelt as a rancher in Dakota Territory, LaGuardia as an Army brat in Arizona Territory) and were even more popular in some ways in the West than in NYC.

    Addendum - in interests of semi-full disclosure, as a boy my grandfather in PA was a big Teddy Roosevelt (TR won the state in 1912) while as a boy my father was a fan of La Guardia. In particular, for reading the funny papers over the radio to schoolkids during a newspaper strike:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWkOZKPLeo8
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497

    kle4 said:

    I've been catching up with Designated Survivor on Netflix - this discussion is getting a bit like that, with the most unknown person catapulted into the leadership. I think the Tories may feel they need someone they've seen a fair amount of and know, faults and all. Which might mean Hunt vs Truss.

    Truss at least inherited Harold Macmillan's old Russian fur hat. Surely a sign?
    Yes, a sign of being a prize tit.
    In these fervently anti-hat times it takes courage to plonk one on your head and risk looking a wally. It took me weeks after buying my first one to wear it in public, so I appaud her boldness if not its execution.
    Surely not? I have quite a few hats and I love wearing them.
    Believe this is one area where there is a gender difference. Traditional yet also modern.

    Women can get away - with others and even more importantly with themselves - wearing any damn thing on their heads.

    For example, those utterly hideous "fascinators" - ugh.

    [snip!]
    Fascinators are not hideous, well, most of them are not :D I have a lovely straw hat for summer and the weather so far has been a huge disappointment to me :disappointed:
    Fascinators are token. They are: Not a hat. Don't keep rain or sun off. Don't keep you warm or cool. They exist only so that it cannot be said of her that she (always she - where are the fascinators for men) wasn't wearing something on her head at wedding/meeting HM the Queen etc. I suppose they fulfil the social obligation imposed, surplus to requirements, by St Paul on women in mixed company in Corinth. Extraordinary what a long life his off the cuff comments have had.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,447

    Survation is interesting. 43 is a very powerful score and with greens on 2 which is perhaps more realistic than the fantasy 8% type results and might be nearer the truth. However its also the second poll today with a more solid Con 35 score. A couple points swingback from there and its deep into chaotically hung territory.
    LabGrLD 56 so low end progressive team score.

    Edit - also the second to show SNP down on 3. I'm unconvinced. Not yet seen any evidence the SNP 45 plus position is crumbling.

    Boris Johnson is Starmer's best hope.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    boulay said:

    kle4 said:

    I've been catching up with Designated Survivor on Netflix - this discussion is getting a bit like that, with the most unknown person catapulted into the leadership. I think the Tories may feel they need someone they've seen a fair amount of and know, faults and all. Which might mean Hunt vs Truss.

    Truss at least inherited Harold Macmillan's old Russian fur hat. Surely a sign?
    Yes, a sign of being a prize tit.
    In these fervently anti-hat times it takes courage to plonk one on your head and risk looking a wally. It took me weeks after buying my first one to wear it in public, so I appaud her boldness if not its execution.
    Well, ostrich feathers are not for everyone, so you were right to be cautious.
    Feathers itch. Boas are the biggest fashion disappointment I have ever had
    . They look so nice but they are so uncomfortable!
    Too constricting?
    I adder down as a plain scarf lady.

    Plain scarf? certainly not!! I prefer a bit of glitz and glamour and colour in my scarves although I do need a new winter hat as my old one has gone for a burton. So I may well get a scarf and hat combo and possibly some nice new boot cut jeans as well.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    Loving the new leaked Liverpool kit.


    Is the aim to hypnotise their opponents into immobility or just to make them vomit?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,447
    glw said:

    Is Carrie briefing against Johnson? Hodges is wondering tonight.

    Could go supernova shortly.

    There is not enough popcorn on planet.

    Why would she do that?
    It sounds a lot of nonsense to me.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402

    Loving the new leaked Liverpool kit.


    Good grief.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,916
    edited July 2022

    Loving the new leaked Liverpool kit.


    What was unfortunate enough to be leaked on by it?

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    Scott_xP said:

    And yet, the huge takeaway from the polling is that ConHome really really don't want Hunt, who is the only one who isn't tainted by association with this madness. I understand why (nobody wants to admit they screwed up) but gosh it's depressing.

    Is ConHome only frequented by people who still think BoZo is the man though?

    Is it actually representative of the voting members?
    ConHome's final 2019 Tory leadership survey had it Johnson 73% Hunt 27%.

    https://conservativehome.com/2019/07/21/our-final-next-tory-leader-survey-johnson-73-per-cent-hunt-27-per-cent-say-those-members-who-have-voted/

    Johnson won it 66% to 34% for Hunt.

    So while it leans fractionally right of the Tory membership overall it is still pretty accurate
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,433
    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    I've been catching up with Designated Survivor on Netflix - this discussion is getting a bit like that, with the most unknown person catapulted into the leadership. I think the Tories may feel they need someone they've seen a fair amount of and know, faults and all. Which might mean Hunt vs Truss.

    Truss at least inherited Harold Macmillan's old Russian fur hat. Surely a sign?
    Yes, a sign of being a prize tit.
    In these fervently anti-hat times it takes courage to plonk one on your head and risk looking a wally. It took me weeks after buying my first one to wear it in public, so I appaud her boldness if not its execution.
    Surely not? I have quite a few hats and I love wearing them.
    Believe this is one area where there is a gender difference. Traditional yet also modern.

    Women can get away - with others and even more importantly with themselves - wearing any damn thing on their heads.

    For example, those utterly hideous "fascinators" - ugh.

    [snip!]
    Fascinators are not hideous, well, most of them are not :D I have a lovely straw hat for summer and the weather so far has been a huge disappointment to me :disappointed:
    Fascinators are token. They are: Not a hat. Don't keep rain or sun off. Don't keep you warm or cool. They exist only so that it cannot be said of her that she (always she - where are the fascinators for men) wasn't wearing something on her head at wedding/meeting HM the Queen etc. I suppose they fulfil the social obligation imposed, surplus to requirements, by St Paul on women in mixed company in Corinth. Extraordinary what a long life his off the cuff comments have had.
    Women's hats ceased to be mere rain keeper offers a very long time ago. Like Nefertiti time ago.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497
    pigeon said:

    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    While just one poll, Labour's 43% showing is the highest we've seen for the party since Jan this year. This is an insufficient lead over the Conservatives on 35% to be assured of an overall majority were an election called, but Labour would be comfortably the largest party. https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1544043326164176896/photo/1

    The chances of a lab overall majority are more or less Zero. There are three big reasons:
    1) Maths
    2) The Tories are unlikely to be this bad all the time (though Major's lot set a standard in this towards which they may be aspiring, perhaps as a result of a dare)
    3) Policy. Because of Brexit it isn't possible for Labour to set out a stall of real policy difference, ie an ideological platform to win by inspiring. They don't dare take a pro EU line. This is understandable. So they have no choice but to take a line on the biggest issue of the day - UK/EU relations which everyone knows Labour don't really believe or support. and most voters don't believe or support it either. They just think we are stuck.

    As a result Labour plan to win by being less bad than the other lot, not by conviction politics. This does not make for ideological excitement. Nor is it the stuff of landslides.
    I agree, the timidity over Labour's policy direction, which rightly or wrongly is believed by few, is not the way to majority.

    Possibly though Starmer would prefer a minority government.
    Starmer is doing the right thing in attempting to neutralise Brexit as an election issue. It's not the main priority for most voters and Conservative attempts to try to re-animate the "Get Brexit Done" campaign as "Keep Brexit Done" should be thwarted.

    I want to see what Labour actually proposes to do about the structural deficits in the economy and the deep-rooted problems that they cause for society in the manifesto: who and what are their spending priorities, and who and what are going to pay for them? This may very well turn out to be a damp squib, in which they promise nothing but more efficient management of the existing system and moving a few £bn around its edges, but I'm prepared to reserve judgment until I see what they actually propose.
    Don't hold your breath. Fiscally the options are few. The Tories won't but should leave a note saying not only is there no money left but that the credit card is maxed out and the children's piggy bank raided.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Excl: A senior Downing Street source told The Independent that the PM was given a direct, first hand account of claims against Pincher before promoting him to deputy chief whip: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-chris-pincher-tory-mp-allegations-b2115612.html
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486

    boulay said:

    kle4 said:

    I've been catching up with Designated Survivor on Netflix - this discussion is getting a bit like that, with the most unknown person catapulted into the leadership. I think the Tories may feel they need someone they've seen a fair amount of and know, faults and all. Which might mean Hunt vs Truss.

    Truss at least inherited Harold Macmillan's old Russian fur hat. Surely a sign?
    Yes, a sign of being a prize tit.
    In these fervently anti-hat times it takes courage to plonk one on your head and risk looking a wally. It took me weeks after buying my first one to wear it in public, so I appaud her boldness if not its execution.
    Well, ostrich feathers are not for everyone, so you were right to be cautious.
    Feathers itch. Boas are the biggest fashion disappointment I have ever had
    . They look so nice but they are so uncomfortable!
    Too constricting?
    I adder down as a plain scarf lady.

    Plain scarf? certainly not!! I prefer a bit of glitz and glamour and colour in my scarves
    although I do need a new winter hat as my old one has gone for a burton. So I may well get a scarf and hat combo and possibly some nice new boot cut jeans as well.
    Sorry, no offence just had to make a stupid pun. I’m hoping boot cut jeans return for chaps - the acceptable face of flares.


  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,632
    Just when you are truly excited about what’s happening with Test cricket and England in particular after thinking you had seen it all come reports of racism in the Edgbaston crowd. Depressing

    https://twitter.com/Paul_NewmanDM/status/1544056114588880898
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    boulay said:

    I’m hoping boot cut jeans return for chaps - the acceptable face of flares.

    I used to work with a guy that wore cowboy boots every day.

    In the words of Billy Connolly, he had been walking downhill for 20 years...
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    I've been catching up with Designated Survivor on Netflix - this discussion is getting a bit like that, with the most unknown person catapulted into the leadership. I think the Tories may feel they need someone they've seen a fair amount of and know, faults and all. Which might mean Hunt vs Truss.

    Truss at least inherited Harold Macmillan's old Russian fur hat. Surely a sign?
    Yes, a sign of being a prize tit.
    In these fervently anti-hat times it takes courage to plonk one on your head and risk looking a wally. It took me weeks after buying my first one to wear it in public, so I appaud her boldness if not its execution.
    Surely not? I have quite a few hats and I love wearing them.
    Believe this is one area where there is a gender difference. Traditional yet also modern.

    Women can get away - with others and even more importantly with themselves - wearing any damn thing on their heads.

    For example, those utterly hideous "fascinators" - ugh.

    [snip!]
    Fascinators are not hideous, well, most of them are not :D I have a lovely straw hat for summer and the weather so far has been a huge disappointment to me :disappointed:
    Fascinators are token. They are: Not a hat. Don't keep rain or sun off. Don't keep you warm or cool. They exist only so that it cannot be said of her that she (always she - where are the fascinators for men) wasn't wearing something on her head at wedding/meeting HM the Queen etc. I suppose they fulfil the social obligation imposed, surplus to requirements, by St Paul on women in mixed company in Corinth. Extraordinary what a long life his off the cuff comments have had.
    Fascinators are not meant to be worn for weather. They are for indoors and sheltered events where a small hat is preferred to a large, clumsy one.

    Next you will be telling me that fashion boots are meant to be waterproof!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,652

    Loving the new leaked Liverpool kit.


    Clearly not a migraine sufferer then.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,811

    Loving the new leaked Liverpool kit.


    Makes opposition players go cross eyed so Liverpool win?

    Also unrelated, Arsenal really missed out on the Bissouma signing.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863
    Scott_xP said:

    Excl: A senior Downing Street source told The Independent that the PM was given a direct, first hand account of claims against Pincher before promoting him to deputy chief whip: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-chris-pincher-tory-mp-allegations-b2115612.html

    The prime minister was told about specific claims against the Tory MP on at least two occasions, according to a senior Downing Street source.

    The significance being, of course, not the information itself, but that even Downing Street staff are now starting to bail on Johnson...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,719
    Yikes!!!


    Mark M Bathgate
    @m_bathgate
    ·
    5h
    This is the price of UK natural gas for this winter compared to the last 5 years - close to 900% higher now. This would take the average UK utility bill to around £4000. The energy crisis is getting worse fast and the UK government is completely asleep at the wheel. 😬

    https://twitter.com/m_bathgate/status/1543971202435276800
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    edited July 2022

    I've been catching up with Designated Survivor on Netflix - this discussion is getting a bit like that, with the most unknown person catapulted into the leadership. I think the Tories may feel they need someone they've seen a fair amount of and know, faults and all. Which might mean Hunt vs Truss.

    I’ve not heard of that series, Nick. A quick Wiki suggests it might well appeal to me. Any good?
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    kle4 said:

    I've been catching up with Designated Survivor on Netflix - this discussion is getting a bit like that, with the most unknown person catapulted into the leadership. I think the Tories may feel they need someone they've seen a fair amount of and know, faults and all. Which might mean Hunt vs Truss.

    Truss at least inherited Harold Macmillan's old Russian fur hat. Surely a sign?
    Yes, a sign of being a prize tit.
    In these fervently anti-hat times it takes courage to plonk one on your head and risk looking a wally. It took me weeks after buying my first one to wear it in public, so I appaud her boldness if not its execution.
    Well, ostrich feathers are not for everyone, so you were right to be cautious.
    Feathers itch. Boas are the biggest fashion disappointment I have ever had
    . They look so nice but they are so uncomfortable!
    Too constricting?
    I adder down as a plain scarf lady.

    Plain scarf? certainly not!! I prefer a bit of glitz and glamour and colour in my scarves
    although I do need a new winter hat as my old one has gone for a burton. So I may well get a scarf and hat combo and possibly some nice new boot cut jeans as well.
    Sorry, no offence just had to make a stupid pun. I’m hoping boot cut jeans return for chaps - the acceptable face of flares.


    Flares can be a great look, but you really need great looking footwear to go with them, otherwise they just look a bit naff
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    Meanwhile in other news, my mother is now spending over half her pension each month on gas and electric

    And it's only summer.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,447
    Only conclusion I can reach at the moment is that Boris Johnson is a deep Labour sleeper agent.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Tuesday’s FINANCIAL Times: “Massive disruption predicted as national train drivers’ strike looms” #TomorrowsPapersToday https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1544058312085409792/photo/1
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I've been catching up with Designated Survivor on Netflix - this discussion is getting a bit like that, with the most unknown person catapulted into the leadership. I think the Tories may feel they need someone they've seen a fair amount of and know, faults and all. Which might mean Hunt vs Truss.

    Truss at least inherited Harold Macmillan's old Russian fur hat. Surely a sign?
    Yes, a sign of being a prize tit.
    In these fervently anti-hat times it takes courage to plonk one on your head and risk looking a wally. It took me weeks after buying my first one to wear it in public, so I appaud her boldness if not its execution.
    Surely not? I have quite a few hats and I love wearing them.
    Where are all the former milleners? Ever seen footage of an old football match? Hats as far as the eye can see.
    Allegedly it was an Ugly American - John Fitzgerald Kennedy - who did the deed.

    Thus taking bread from mouths of hundreds of thousands of hatters (mad or not). AND dooming millions to brain freeze, sun-stroke OR the dreaded soaking-wet head.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,632
    Foxy said:

    Loving the new leaked Liverpool kit.


    Clearly not a migraine sufferer then.
    It reminded me of my youth and Global HyperColour t-shirts.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Government minister openly attacking his own government’s policy 👇 https://twitter.com/greghands/status/1544032775191289856
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    edited July 2022

    Only conclusion I can reach at the moment is that Boris Johnson is a deep Labour sleeper agent.

    And SKS is a deep sleeper Tory.
    Who will prove least incompetent?
    Confused? You will be.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Boris Johnson looks increasingly isolated over Chris Pincher saga - and it could get worse still http://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-looks-increasingly-isolated-over-chris-pincher-saga-and-it-could-get-worse-still-12645917



    BoZo first big mis-step was Opatz. Is Pincher his last?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    Survation is interesting. 43 is a very powerful score and with greens on 2 which is perhaps more realistic than the fantasy 8% type results and might be nearer the truth. However its also the second poll today with a more solid Con 35 score. A couple points swingback from there and its deep into chaotically hung territory.
    LabGrLD 56 so low end progressive team score.

    Edit - also the second to show SNP down on 3. I'm unconvinced. Not yet seen any evidence the SNP 45 plus position is crumbling.

    Boris Johnson is Starmer's best hope.
    Absolutely- from a narrow political advantage POV Labour would be wise to do almost anything to keep Bozza hanging in there.

    However, the misery visited on the country is of a far greater concern, hence why I hope the Tories get rid (I agree that Zahawi is the best option).

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863
    Scott_xP said:

    Government minister openly attacking his own government’s policy 👇 https://twitter.com/greghands/status/1544032775191289856

    I doubt it will be long before some senior Labour remainer breaks with Starmer's fence-sitting, either.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    k
    dixiedean said:

    Only conclusion I can reach at the moment is that Boris Johnson is a deep Labour sleeper agent.

    And SKS is a deep sleeper Tory.
    Who will prove least incompetent?
    Confused? You will be.
    I thought Corbyn was the sleeper Tory?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    It's like that bit in the trailer for Meaning of Life.
    "What was that about people aren't wearing enough hats again?"
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,668

    Foxy said:

    Loving the new leaked Liverpool kit.


    Clearly not a migraine sufferer then.
    It reminded me of my youth and Global HyperColour t-shirts.
    Dazzle camouflage so the opponents can't quite get a handle on where they are?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,652
    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    I've been catching up with Designated Survivor on Netflix - this discussion is getting a bit like that, with the most unknown person catapulted into the leadership. I think the Tories may feel they need someone they've seen a fair amount of and know, faults and all. Which might mean Hunt vs Truss.

    Truss at least inherited Harold Macmillan's old Russian fur hat. Surely a sign?
    Yes, a sign of being a prize tit.
    In these fervently anti-hat times it takes courage to plonk one on your head and risk looking a wally. It took me weeks after buying my first one to wear it in public, so I appaud her boldness if not its execution.
    Surely not? I have quite a few hats and I love wearing them.
    Believe this is one area where there is a gender difference. Traditional yet also modern.

    Women can get away - with others and even more importantly with themselves - wearing any damn thing on their heads.

    For example, those utterly hideous "fascinators" - ugh.

    [snip!]
    Fascinators are not hideous, well, most of them are not :D I have a lovely straw hat for summer and the weather so far has been a huge disappointment to me :disappointed:
    Fascinators are token. They are: Not a hat. Don't keep rain or sun off. Don't keep you warm or cool. They exist only so that it cannot be said of her that she (always she - where are the fascinators for men) wasn't wearing something on her head at wedding/meeting HM the Queen etc. I suppose they fulfil the social obligation imposed, surplus to requirements, by St Paul on women in mixed company in Corinth. Extraordinary what a long life his off the cuff comments have had.
    A feminist Christian once made the case to me that Paul was not being misogynist in his instruction that women should keep quiet in church and cover their heads. She made the point that previously women were not allowed in places of worship, so needed to be advised to do as men did, that is to keep quiet and cover their heads. I was almost convinced.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    WHO is in favor, of having Leon find a convenient hat shop, purchase the finest traditional Montenegrin headgear that is procurable (on expense account)?

    AND getting his picture taken sporting same, and posting it on PB, to encourage free trade between MNG & UK!

    Heck, can even give Liz Truss credit if he chooses. Sir Leon having a nice ring?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402

    k

    dixiedean said:

    Only conclusion I can reach at the moment is that Boris Johnson is a deep Labour sleeper agent.

    And SKS is a deep sleeper Tory.
    Who will prove least incompetent?
    Confused? You will be.
    I thought Corbyn was the sleeper Tory?
    For all his manifest faults, that really wasn't one of them.
    He visibly put the wind up for a while.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,652

    Only conclusion I can reach at the moment is that Boris Johnson is a deep Labour sleeper agent.

    He's delivering Michael Foot's 1983 manifesto.
    So, out of NATO soon?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    I've been catching up with Designated Survivor on Netflix - this discussion is getting a bit like that, with the most unknown person catapulted into the leadership. I think the Tories may feel they need someone they've seen a fair amount of and know, faults and all. Which might mean Hunt vs Truss.

    Truss at least inherited Harold Macmillan's old Russian fur hat. Surely a sign?
    Yes, a sign of being a prize tit.
    In these fervently anti-hat times it takes courage to plonk one on your head and risk looking a wally. It took me weeks after buying my first one to wear it in public, so I appaud her boldness if not its execution.
    Surely not? I have quite a few hats and I love wearing them.
    Believe this is one area where there is a gender difference. Traditional yet also modern.

    Women can get away - with others and even more importantly with themselves - wearing any damn thing on their heads.

    For example, those utterly hideous "fascinators" - ugh.

    [snip!]
    Fascinators are not hideous, well, most of them are not :D I have a lovely straw hat for summer and the weather so far has been a huge disappointment to me :disappointed:
    Fascinators are token. They are: Not a hat. Don't keep rain or sun off. Don't keep you warm or cool. They exist only so that it cannot be said of her that she (always she - where are the fascinators for men) wasn't wearing something on her head at wedding/meeting HM the Queen etc. I suppose they fulfil the social obligation imposed, surplus to requirements, by St Paul on women in mixed company in Corinth. Extraordinary what a long life his off the cuff comments have had.
    A feminist Christian once made the case to me that Paul was not being misogynist in his instruction that women should keep quiet in church and cover their heads. She made the point that previously women were not allowed in places of worship, so needed to be advised to do as men did, that is to keep quiet and cover their heads. I was almost convinced.
    My own theory, is that Paul wanted to curb the well-known (and apparently eternal) enthusiasm of boys & men, for checking out girls and women in the next pew, or wherever they were perched, quite often hopeful of being checked out.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,632
    Foxy said:

    Only conclusion I can reach at the moment is that Boris Johnson is a deep Labour sleeper agent.

    He's delivering Michael Foot's 1983 manifesto.
    So, out of NATO soon?
    Yup, although if Trump wins in 2024 I think NATO is dead and we'll see a European Army.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    Yikes!!!


    Mark M Bathgate
    @m_bathgate
    ·
    5h
    This is the price of UK natural gas for this winter compared to the last 5 years - close to 900% higher now. This would take the average UK utility bill to around £4000. The energy crisis is getting worse fast and the UK government is completely asleep at the wheel. 😬

    https://twitter.com/m_bathgate/status/1543971202435276800

    Surely our electric should be free by now because we have thousands of wind turbines...
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    k

    dixiedean said:

    Only conclusion I can reach at the moment is that Boris Johnson is a deep Labour sleeper agent.

    And SKS is a deep sleeper Tory.
    Who will prove least incompetent?
    Confused? You will be.
    I thought Corbyn was the sleeper Tory?
    Rees-Moog is a sleeper Jacobite.

    Though deploring Bonnie Prince Charlie's unseemingly wokeish coddling of uppity Scots.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,288
    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Government minister openly attacking his own government’s policy 👇 https://twitter.com/greghands/status/1544032775191289856

    I doubt it will be long before some senior Labour remainer breaks with Starmer's fence-sitting, either.
    I think Starmer is outright lying on the EU

    He does not expect a majority (rightly); if he gains power it will be with the help of the Libs and maybe other minor parties. The smaller parties will demand a move to the SM and CU, in some form. Korma will sigh and reluctantly agree, for the good of the nation and to prevent a Tory govt

    Politically, highly astute. Morally, very questionable
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    edited July 2022

    Foxy said:

    Loving the new leaked Liverpool kit.


    Clearly not a migraine sufferer then.
    It reminded me of my youth and Global HyperColour t-shirts.
    Dazzle camouflage by the looks of things.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Tuesday’s i - “Cabinet angry at defending Johnson again” #TomorrowsPapersToday https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1544062191543918593/photo/1
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863

    k

    dixiedean said:

    Only conclusion I can reach at the moment is that Boris Johnson is a deep Labour sleeper agent.

    And SKS is a deep sleeper Tory.
    Who will prove least incompetent?
    Confused? You will be.
    I thought Corbyn was the sleeper Tory?
    But Corbyn was how we got landed with Johnson, and Johnson is destroying the Tory Party as an electable proposition, opening the door for the first Labour election win for nearly twenty years. Corbyn is clearly a few steps ahead of the rest of them...
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    Apparently, Boris was caught on camera pinching two ladies back in 1995:

    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1995-10-20-mn-59086-story.html
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,719
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Government minister openly attacking his own government’s policy 👇 https://twitter.com/greghands/status/1544032775191289856

    I doubt it will be long before some senior Labour remainer breaks with Starmer's fence-sitting, either.
    I think Starmer is outright lying on the EU

    He does not expect a majority (rightly); if he gains power it will be with the help of the Libs and maybe other minor parties. The smaller parties will demand a move to the SM and CU, in some form. Korma will sigh and reluctantly agree, for the good of the nation and to prevent a Tory govt

    Politically, highly astute. Morally, very questionable
    What is a "move to the SM"?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    The Pincher scandal shows once again that what the PM wants from his lieutenants is a slavish willingness to toe the line | ✍️ @hugorifkind
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-will-overlook-anything-if-youre-loyal-6q22mklv2?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1656965202-1
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,652
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Government minister openly attacking his own government’s policy 👇 https://twitter.com/greghands/status/1544032775191289856

    I doubt it will be long before some senior Labour remainer breaks with Starmer's fence-sitting, either.
    I think Starmer is outright lying on the EU

    He does not expect a majority (rightly); if he gains power it will be with the help of the Libs and maybe other minor parties. The smaller parties will demand a move to the SM and CU, in some form. Korma will sigh and reluctantly agree, for the good of the nation and to prevent a Tory govt

    Politically, highly astute. Morally, very questionable
    Yes, Starmer is either a complete hypocrite, changing his tune for a sniff of power, or deliberately dissembling. Neither is a good look.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,288

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Government minister openly attacking his own government’s policy 👇 https://twitter.com/greghands/status/1544032775191289856

    I doubt it will be long before some senior Labour remainer breaks with Starmer's fence-sitting, either.
    I think Starmer is outright lying on the EU

    He does not expect a majority (rightly); if he gains power it will be with the help of the Libs and maybe other minor parties. The smaller parties will demand a move to the SM and CU, in some form. Korma will sigh and reluctantly agree, for the good of the nation and to prevent a Tory govt

    Politically, highly astute. Morally, very questionable
    What is a "move to the SM"?
    Basically, the SM, but it might be prettied up by a new name

    Why would the Libs NOT demand this as the price of govt? They really really believe it, and want it

    I guess the price of their support could be another referendum on PR, but Labour will be greatly reluctant to grant that, and Libs also know these votes are easily lost

  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Government minister openly attacking his own government’s policy 👇 https://twitter.com/greghands/status/1544032775191289856

    I doubt it will be long before some senior Labour remainer breaks with Starmer's fence-sitting, either.
    I think Starmer is outright lying on the EU

    He does not expect a majority (rightly); if he gains power it will be with the help of the Libs and maybe other minor parties. The smaller parties will demand a move to the SM and CU, in some form. Korma will sigh and reluctantly agree, for the good of the nation and to prevent a Tory govt

    Politically, highly astute. Morally, very questionable
    Can't see it. SM and CU membership aren't things you can just pick off the shelf - it will probably require years of negotiation. Sir Keir won't want to get bogged down by all that in a hung parliament with the Tories ready to play the 'Labour Cancelled Brexit' card at the next GE. Sir Keir will want to shelve the Brexit stuff and, ideally, leave it to a Tory successor of Boris to sort out.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    If cheerleading a Johnson government withered a Tory soul back then, though, think how much harder it is now. Today, it is not only the self-harm of a hard Brexit that must be squared off with your conscience. It is also the proroguing of parliament, the partying through lockdown, the mad and brutal Rwanda policy, the facing down of international law. This is a Conservative government that breaks things, which is definitely not what conservatism used to be about.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-will-overlook-anything-if-youre-loyal-6q22mklv2
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Government minister openly attacking his own government’s policy 👇 https://twitter.com/greghands/status/1544032775191289856

    I doubt it will be long before some senior Labour remainer breaks with Starmer's fence-sitting, either.
    I think Starmer is outright lying on the EU

    He does not expect a majority (rightly); if he gains power it will be with the help of the Libs and maybe other minor parties. The smaller parties will demand a move to the SM and CU, in some form. Korma will sigh and reluctantly agree, for the good of the nation and to prevent a Tory govt

    Politically, highly astute. Morally, very questionable
    What is a "move to the SM"?
    Is he wearing a collar?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    The mood is dire on the Conservative benches. And it could get worse still, if one of Mr Pincher's accusers complains to the police. Mr Johnson could find himself facing another by-election precipitated by Tory sleaze, says Sky's @BethRigby
    https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-looks-increasingly-isolated-over-chris-pincher-saga-and-it-could-get-worse-still-12645917?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    🚨 Exclusive: Boris Johnson was made aware of a formal complaint about Chris Pincher's "inappropriate behaviour" while Mr Pincher was a Foreign Office minister from 2019-20, the BBC News can reveal.

    More from me on BBC News at 10 tonight 📺

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62040915
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Government minister openly attacking his own government’s policy 👇 https://twitter.com/greghands/status/1544032775191289856

    I doubt it will be long before some senior Labour remainer breaks with Starmer's fence-sitting, either.
    I think Starmer is outright lying on the EU

    He does not expect a majority (rightly); if he gains power it will be with the help of the Libs and maybe other minor parties. The smaller parties will demand a move to the SM and CU, in some form. Korma will sigh and reluctantly agree, for the good of the nation and to prevent a Tory govt

    Politically, highly astute. Morally, very questionable
    I'm not so sure - we know from both the 2010 and 2017 experiences just how little leverage a junior partner in any kind of coalition or confidence arrangement has, especially when they have no alternatives (and the SNP and LDs can't just orchestrate a bidding war between Labour and the Tories for support, when it's politically nigh-on impossible for them to work with the latter at present.)

    They're going to have to prioritise their demands and Europe isn't the number one priority for any party or for most of the electorate. In a hypothetical situation in which Starmer has to buy off both those other parties, electoral reform and devo max for Scotland are both more likely outcomes than a European compromise. Besides anything else, the Europhiles (outside of the fanatical fringe) aren't stupid - they'll understand that re-joining is going to be a lengthy process and not an event that can magically happen during the next Parliament. A defusing of tensions is the first step; a Norwegian arrangement can come later.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    I've been catching up with Designated Survivor on Netflix - this discussion is getting a bit like that….

    Bit of a drastic solution, that, Nick.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    edited July 2022
    Scott_xP said:

    🚨 Exclusive: Boris Johnson was made aware of a formal complaint about Chris Pincher's "inappropriate behaviour" while Mr Pincher was a Foreign Office minister from 2019-20, the BBC News can reveal.

    More from me on BBC News at 10 tonight 📺

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62040915

    The man is always so careless with his denials and evasions, it should have scuppered him long ago, yet he has risen higher and higher for decades now. How does he do it? It's a remarkable talent, even considering his genuine charisma.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    edited July 2022

    Scott_xP said:

    Tuesday’s i - “Cabinet angry at defending Johnson again” #TomorrowsPapersToday https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1544062191543918593/photo/1

    Well, do something about it, you spineless nonentities!!!

    I believe the approved Borisism would be 'Great supine protoplasmic invertebrate jellies'.
  • NEW - Westminster Voting Intention:

    LAB 43% (+2)
    CON 35% (+1)
    LD 11% (+1)
    SNP 3% (-1)
    GRN 2% (-1)
    OTH 5% (-2)

    1,017 UK adults aged 18+ online, 27th June '22. Changes w/ June 17th ‘22

    Keir Starmer has done it, he has re-built the 1997 coalition.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,288

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Government minister openly attacking his own government’s policy 👇 https://twitter.com/greghands/status/1544032775191289856

    I doubt it will be long before some senior Labour remainer breaks with Starmer's fence-sitting, either.
    I think Starmer is outright lying on the EU

    He does not expect a majority (rightly); if he gains power it will be with the help of the Libs and maybe other minor parties. The smaller parties will demand a move to the SM and CU, in some form. Korma will sigh and reluctantly agree, for the good of the nation and to prevent a Tory govt

    Politically, highly astute. Morally, very questionable
    Can't see it. SM and CU membership aren't things you can just pick off the shelf - it will probably require years of negotiation. Sir Keir won't want to get bogged down by all that in a hung parliament with the Tories ready to play the 'Labour Cancelled Brexit' card at the next GE. Sir Keir will want to shelve the Brexit stuff and, ideally, leave it to a Tory successor of Boris to sort out.
    Fair, but I am trying to picture the pressures there will be, on Starmer, to move towards the EU

    Labour might be a one term govt. It could be their only chance to reverse a chunk of Brexit, and many on his side are DESPERATE to do that

    We shall see
  • Boris Johnson’s net favourability rating has made new lows (-32%), while about as many voters approve of Keir Starmer as disapprove, which, while nothing to celebrate, puts him 30 points ahead of the PM on this measure.
  • Overall, the two main parties are doing moderately better than their party leaders. The Labour party has a net favourability rating of 2%, with Conservatives on -21%, compared to Boris Johnson’s -32%.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    Can't see it. SM and CU membership aren't things you can just pick off the shelf - it will probably require years of negotiation. Sir Keir won't want to get bogged down by all that in a hung parliament with the Tories ready to play the 'Labour Cancelled Brexit' card at the next GE. Sir Keir will want to shelve the Brexit stuff and, ideally, leave it to a Tory successor of Boris to sort out.

    The Brexiteers spent 30 years whining about the imaginary stuff they couldn't do cos of the EU

    A future Labour Government will make it very clear the problems caused by not being in the EU

    They don't have to explicitly advocate rejoining. yet.
  • If it weren't for Jeremy Corbyn, I do not believe Johnson would've won a majority. We in Labour have a lot to answer for
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    edited July 2022

    Foxy said:

    Only conclusion I can reach at the moment is that Boris Johnson is a deep Labour sleeper agent.

    He's delivering Michael Foot's 1983 manifesto.
    So, out of NATO soon?
    Yup, although if Trump wins in 2024 I think NATO is dead and we'll see a European Army.
    Even without the US NATO would still be more powerful militarily than the EU, including the UK, Canada and Turkey as well.

    Though given Trump recently threatened to bomb Russia unless Putin withdrew from Ukraine if he was elected again as President, the idea he will be soft on Putin and withdraw from NATO is dubious. It was more European countries not paying their NATO fees he was concerned about, now resolved post Ukraine

    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/03/donald-trump-russia-nuclear-submarines
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Government minister openly attacking his own government’s policy 👇 https://twitter.com/greghands/status/1544032775191289856

    I doubt it will be long before some senior Labour remainer breaks with Starmer's fence-sitting, either.
    I think Starmer is outright lying on the EU

    He does not expect a majority (rightly); if he gains power it will be with the help of the Libs and maybe other minor parties. The smaller parties will demand a move to the SM and CU, in some form. Korma will sigh and reluctantly agree, for the good of the nation and to prevent a Tory govt

    Politically, highly astute. Morally, very questionable
    Can't see it. SM and CU membership aren't things you can just pick off the shelf - it will probably require years of negotiation. Sir Keir won't want to get bogged down by all that in a hung parliament with the Tories ready to play the 'Labour Cancelled Brexit' card at the next GE. Sir Keir will want to shelve the Brexit stuff and, ideally, leave it to a Tory successor of Boris to sort out.
    Fair, but I am trying to picture the pressures there will be, on Starmer, to move towards the EU

    Labour might be a one term govt. It could be their only chance to reverse a chunk of Brexit, and many on his side are DESPERATE to do that

    We shall see
    TELEGRAPH:
    Sir Keir Starmer is facing a Labour revolt over Brexit after he vowed not to take Britain back into the Single Market.

    In a keynote speech on Britain’s future outside the European Union, Sir Keir pledged to “make Brexit work” and said he would not seek to join the Single Market or a customs union.

    But before he had even delivered his remarks, the Labour leader faced a backlash from within his own ranks, with Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London, openly contradicting him.


  • geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Government minister openly attacking his own government’s policy 👇 https://twitter.com/greghands/status/1544032775191289856

    I doubt it will be long before some senior Labour remainer breaks with Starmer's fence-sitting, either.
    I think Starmer is outright lying on the EU

    He does not expect a majority (rightly); if he gains power it will be with the help of the Libs and maybe other minor parties. The smaller parties will demand a move to the SM and CU, in some form. Korma will sigh and reluctantly agree, for the good of the nation and to prevent a Tory govt

    Politically, highly astute. Morally, very questionable
    Can't see it. SM and CU membership aren't things you can just pick off the shelf - it will probably require years of negotiation. Sir Keir won't want to get bogged down by all that in a hung parliament with the Tories ready to play the 'Labour Cancelled Brexit' card at the next GE. Sir Keir will want to shelve the Brexit stuff and, ideally, leave it to a Tory successor of Boris to sort out.
    Fair, but I am trying to picture the pressures there will be, on Starmer, to move towards the EU

    Labour might be a one term govt. It could be their only chance to reverse a chunk of Brexit, and many on his side are DESPERATE to do that

    We shall see
    TELEGRAPH:
    Sir Keir Starmer is facing a Labour revolt over Brexit after he vowed not to take Britain back into the Single Market.

    In a keynote speech on Britain’s future outside the European Union, Sir Keir pledged to “make Brexit work” and said he would not seek to join the Single Market or a customs union.

    But before he had even delivered his remarks, the Labour leader faced a backlash from within his own ranks, with Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London, openly contradicting him.


    Sadiq has no influence over Labour in Government, he's not an MP
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    edited July 2022
    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Government minister openly attacking his own government’s policy 👇 https://twitter.com/greghands/status/1544032775191289856

    I doubt it will be long before some senior Labour remainer breaks with Starmer's fence-sitting, either.
    I think Starmer is outright lying on the EU

    He does not expect a majority (rightly); if he gains power it will be with the help of the Libs and maybe other minor parties. The smaller parties will demand a move to the SM and CU, in some form. Korma will sigh and reluctantly agree, for the good of the nation and to prevent a Tory govt

    Politically, highly astute. Morally, very questionable
    Can't see it. SM and CU membership aren't things you can just pick off the shelf - it will probably require years of negotiation. Sir Keir won't want to get bogged down by all that in a hung parliament with the Tories ready to play the 'Labour Cancelled Brexit' card at the next GE. Sir Keir will want to shelve the Brexit stuff and, ideally, leave it to a Tory successor of Boris to sort out.
    Fair, but I am trying to picture the pressures there will be, on Starmer, to move towards the EU

    Labour might be a one term govt. It could be their only chance to reverse a chunk of Brexit, and many on his side are DESPERATE to do that

    We shall see
    TELEGRAPH:
    Sir Keir Starmer is facing a Labour revolt over Brexit after he vowed not to take Britain back into the Single Market.

    In a keynote speech on Britain’s future outside the European Union, Sir Keir pledged to “make Brexit work” and said he would not seek to join the Single Market or a customs union.

    But before he had even delivered his remarks, the Labour leader faced a backlash from within his own ranks, with Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London, openly contradicting him.


    Labour already has won London, even in 2019, it is the Tory held redwall seats it has to win back to have any chance of making Starmer PM
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,652
    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Government minister openly attacking his own government’s policy 👇 https://twitter.com/greghands/status/1544032775191289856

    I doubt it will be long before some senior Labour remainer breaks with Starmer's fence-sitting, either.
    I think Starmer is outright lying on the EU

    He does not expect a majority (rightly); if he gains power it will be with the help of the Libs and maybe other minor parties. The smaller parties will demand a move to the SM and CU, in some form. Korma will sigh and reluctantly agree, for the good of the nation and to prevent a Tory govt

    Politically, highly astute. Morally, very questionable
    I'm not so sure - we know from both the 2010 and 2017 experiences just how little leverage a junior partner in any kind of coalition or confidence arrangement has, especially when they have no alternatives (and the SNP and LDs can't just orchestrate a bidding war between Labour and the Tories for support, when it's politically nigh-on impossible for them to work with the latter at present.)

    They're going to have to prioritise their demands and Europe isn't the number one priority for any party or for most of the electorate. In a hypothetical situation in which Starmer has to buy off both those other parties, electoral reform and devo max for Scotland are both more likely outcomes than a European compromise. Besides anything else, the Europhiles (outside of the fanatical fringe) aren't stupid - they'll understand that re-joining is going to be a lengthy process and not an event that can magically happen during the next Parliament. A defusing of tensions is the first step; a Norwegian arrangement can come later.
    I think that more realistic, that Labour will await events for next Parliament while making sure there is no further divergence, and indeed a bit of convergence to sort both NIP and Dover.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Government minister openly attacking his own government’s policy 👇 https://twitter.com/greghands/status/1544032775191289856

    I doubt it will be long before some senior Labour remainer breaks with Starmer's fence-sitting, either.
    I think Starmer is outright lying on the EU

    He does not expect a majority (rightly); if he gains power it will be with the help of the Libs and maybe other minor parties. The smaller parties will demand a move to the SM and CU, in some form. Korma will sigh and reluctantly agree, for the good of the nation and to prevent a Tory govt

    Politically, highly astute. Morally, very questionable
    Can't see it. SM and CU membership aren't things you can just pick off the shelf - it will probably require years of negotiation. Sir Keir won't want to get bogged down by all that in a hung parliament with the Tories ready to play the 'Labour Cancelled Brexit' card at the next GE. Sir Keir will want to shelve the Brexit stuff and, ideally, leave it to a Tory successor of Boris to sort out.
    Fair, but I am trying to picture the pressures there will be, on Starmer, to move towards the EU

    Labour might be a one term govt. It could be their only chance to reverse a chunk of Brexit, and many on his side are DESPERATE to do that

    We shall see
    TELEGRAPH:
    Sir Keir Starmer is facing a Labour revolt over Brexit after he vowed not to take Britain back into the Single Market.

    In a keynote speech on Britain’s future outside the European Union, Sir Keir pledged to “make Brexit work” and said he would not seek to join the Single Market or a customs union.

    But before he had even delivered his remarks, the Labour leader faced a backlash from within his own ranks, with Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London, openly contradicting him.


    Sadiq has no influence over Labour in Government, he's not an MP
    Sadiq:
    “Londoners elected me to be their champion, their advocate. I believe that our city and our country’s future is best served being members of the Single Market.”

    Mr Khan was not the only senior Labour figure to voice dissent against the party line. Stella Creasy, the MP who chairs the Labour Movement for Europe, said: “We are only just beginning to understand the damage Brexit is doing to Britain.

    “So we urge Keir to make sure nothing is off the table as a solution in the fight to tackle the cost of living crisis and protect jobs, trade and security.”


  • geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Government minister openly attacking his own government’s policy 👇 https://twitter.com/greghands/status/1544032775191289856

    I doubt it will be long before some senior Labour remainer breaks with Starmer's fence-sitting, either.
    I think Starmer is outright lying on the EU

    He does not expect a majority (rightly); if he gains power it will be with the help of the Libs and maybe other minor parties. The smaller parties will demand a move to the SM and CU, in some form. Korma will sigh and reluctantly agree, for the good of the nation and to prevent a Tory govt

    Politically, highly astute. Morally, very questionable
    Can't see it. SM and CU membership aren't things you can just pick off the shelf - it will probably require years of negotiation. Sir Keir won't want to get bogged down by all that in a hung parliament with the Tories ready to play the 'Labour Cancelled Brexit' card at the next GE. Sir Keir will want to shelve the Brexit stuff and, ideally, leave it to a Tory successor of Boris to sort out.
    Fair, but I am trying to picture the pressures there will be, on Starmer, to move towards the EU

    Labour might be a one term govt. It could be their only chance to reverse a chunk of Brexit, and many on his side are DESPERATE to do that

    We shall see
    TELEGRAPH:
    Sir Keir Starmer is facing a Labour revolt over Brexit after he vowed not to take Britain back into the Single Market.

    In a keynote speech on Britain’s future outside the European Union, Sir Keir pledged to “make Brexit work” and said he would not seek to join the Single Market or a customs union.

    But before he had even delivered his remarks, the Labour leader faced a backlash from within his own ranks, with Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London, openly contradicting him.


    Sadiq has no influence over Labour in Government, he's not an MP
    Sadiq:
    “Londoners elected me to be their champion, their advocate. I believe that our city and our country’s future is best served being members of the Single Market.”

    Mr Khan was not the only senior Labour figure to voice dissent against the party line. Stella Creasy, the MP who chairs the Labour Movement for Europe, said: “We are only just beginning to understand the damage Brexit is doing to Britain.

    “So we urge Keir to make sure nothing is off the table as a solution in the fight to tackle the cost of living crisis and protect jobs, trade and security.”


    Bunch of idiots.

    Regardless, it is clear what Labour policy is. And the Tories know it
  • Having turned net negative even among the 65+ (-9%) & Leave voters (-5%), there's only one demographic or political group in tonight's poll left with a + net approval rating for Boris Johnson & that's past Conservative voters (+10). A hefty 40% of CON 2019s are now unfavourable:

    https://twitter.com/DamianSurvation/status/1544070282155098114
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    edited July 2022

    Yikes!!!


    Mark M Bathgate
    @m_bathgate
    ·
    5h
    This is the price of UK natural gas for this winter compared to the last 5 years - close to 900% higher now. This would take the average UK utility bill to around £4000. The energy crisis is getting worse fast and the UK government is completely asleep at the wheel. 😬

    https://twitter.com/m_bathgate/status/1543971202435276800

    I don't recognise those figures. According to the futures exchanges, it's "only" up ~4x.

    Oh, I see the graph actually shows 8x, but 4x in the last year (i.e. the main trading period). I actually don't know what proportion of the UK's domestic supply for December has already been bought.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,652
    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Government minister openly attacking his own government’s policy 👇 https://twitter.com/greghands/status/1544032775191289856

    I doubt it will be long before some senior Labour remainer breaks with Starmer's fence-sitting, either.
    I think Starmer is outright lying on the EU

    He does not expect a majority (rightly); if he gains power it will be with the help of the Libs and maybe other minor parties. The smaller parties will demand a move to the SM and CU, in some form. Korma will sigh and reluctantly agree, for the good of the nation and to prevent a Tory govt

    Politically, highly astute. Morally, very questionable
    Can't see it. SM and CU membership aren't things you can just pick off the shelf - it will probably require years of negotiation. Sir Keir won't want to get bogged down by all that in a hung parliament with the Tories ready to play the 'Labour Cancelled Brexit' card at the next GE. Sir Keir will want to shelve the Brexit stuff and, ideally, leave it to a Tory successor of Boris to sort out.
    Fair, but I am trying to picture the pressures there will be, on Starmer, to move towards the EU

    Labour might be a one term govt. It could be their only chance to reverse a chunk of Brexit, and many on his side are DESPERATE to do that

    We shall see
    TELEGRAPH:
    Sir Keir Starmer is facing a Labour revolt over Brexit after he vowed not to take Britain back into the Single Market.

    In a keynote speech on Britain’s future outside the European Union, Sir Keir pledged to “make Brexit work” and said he would not seek to join the Single Market or a customs union.

    But before he had even delivered his remarks, the Labour leader faced a backlash from within his own ranks, with Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London, openly contradicting him.


    A beautifully orchestrated artificial row, to highlight Starmer as being a commanding leader.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Government minister openly attacking his own government’s policy 👇 https://twitter.com/greghands/status/1544032775191289856

    I doubt it will be long before some senior Labour remainer breaks with Starmer's fence-sitting, either.
    I think Starmer is outright lying on the EU

    He does not expect a majority (rightly); if he gains power it will be with the help of the Libs and maybe other minor parties. The smaller parties will demand a move to the SM and CU, in some form. Korma will sigh and reluctantly agree, for the good of the nation and to prevent a Tory govt

    Politically, highly astute. Morally, very questionable
    Can't see it. SM and CU membership aren't things you can just pick off the shelf - it will probably require years of negotiation. Sir Keir won't want to get bogged down by all that in a hung parliament with the Tories ready to play the 'Labour Cancelled Brexit' card at the next GE. Sir Keir will want to shelve the Brexit stuff and, ideally, leave it to a Tory successor of Boris to sort out.
    Fair, but I am trying to picture the pressures there will be, on Starmer, to move towards the EU

    Labour might be a one term govt. It could be their only chance to reverse a chunk of Brexit, and many on his side are DESPERATE to do that

    We shall see
    TELEGRAPH:
    Sir Keir Starmer is facing a Labour revolt over Brexit after he vowed not to take Britain back into the Single Market.

    In a keynote speech on Britain’s future outside the European Union, Sir Keir pledged to “make Brexit work” and said he would not seek to join the Single Market or a customs union.

    But before he had even delivered his remarks, the Labour leader faced a backlash from within his own ranks, with Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London, openly contradicting him.


    Sadiq has no influence over Labour in Government, he's not an MP
    Sadiq:
    “Londoners elected me to be their champion, their advocate. I believe that our city and our country’s future is best served being members of the Single Market.”

    Mr Khan was not the only senior Labour figure to voice dissent against the party line. Stella Creasy, the MP who chairs the Labour Movement for Europe, said: “We are only just beginning to understand the damage Brexit is doing to Britain.

    “So we urge Keir to make sure nothing is off the table as a solution in the fight to tackle the cost of living crisis and protect jobs, trade and security.”


    Bunch of idiots.

    Regardless, it is clear what Labour policy is. And the Tories know it
    Isn't Labour policy decided by Conference?

  • geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Government minister openly attacking his own government’s policy 👇 https://twitter.com/greghands/status/1544032775191289856

    I doubt it will be long before some senior Labour remainer breaks with Starmer's fence-sitting, either.
    I think Starmer is outright lying on the EU

    He does not expect a majority (rightly); if he gains power it will be with the help of the Libs and maybe other minor parties. The smaller parties will demand a move to the SM and CU, in some form. Korma will sigh and reluctantly agree, for the good of the nation and to prevent a Tory govt

    Politically, highly astute. Morally, very questionable
    Can't see it. SM and CU membership aren't things you can just pick off the shelf - it will probably require years of negotiation. Sir Keir won't want to get bogged down by all that in a hung parliament with the Tories ready to play the 'Labour Cancelled Brexit' card at the next GE. Sir Keir will want to shelve the Brexit stuff and, ideally, leave it to a Tory successor of Boris to sort out.
    Fair, but I am trying to picture the pressures there will be, on Starmer, to move towards the EU

    Labour might be a one term govt. It could be their only chance to reverse a chunk of Brexit, and many on his side are DESPERATE to do that

    We shall see
    TELEGRAPH:
    Sir Keir Starmer is facing a Labour revolt over Brexit after he vowed not to take Britain back into the Single Market.

    In a keynote speech on Britain’s future outside the European Union, Sir Keir pledged to “make Brexit work” and said he would not seek to join the Single Market or a customs union.

    But before he had even delivered his remarks, the Labour leader faced a backlash from within his own ranks, with Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London, openly contradicting him.


    Sadiq has no influence over Labour in Government, he's not an MP
    Sadiq:
    “Londoners elected me to be their champion, their advocate. I believe that our city and our country’s future is best served being members of the Single Market.”

    Mr Khan was not the only senior Labour figure to voice dissent against the party line. Stella Creasy, the MP who chairs the Labour Movement for Europe, said: “We are only just beginning to understand the damage Brexit is doing to Britain.

    “So we urge Keir to make sure nothing is off the table as a solution in the fight to tackle the cost of living crisis and protect jobs, trade and security.”


    Bunch of idiots.

    Regardless, it is clear what Labour policy is. And the Tories know it
    Isn't Labour policy decided by Conference?

    No it isn't. We've discussed this before on here.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,838
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Tuesday’s i - “Cabinet angry at defending Johnson again” #TomorrowsPapersToday https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1544062191543918593/photo/1

    Well, do something about it, you spineless nonentities!!!

    I believe the approved Borisism would be 'Great supine protoplasmic invertebrate jellies'.
    No, no science education afaik. Scrub words 3 and 4, and insert some suitably classical allusion such as 'servile eunuchs'.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717
    Foxy said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Government minister openly attacking his own government’s policy 👇 https://twitter.com/greghands/status/1544032775191289856

    I doubt it will be long before some senior Labour remainer breaks with Starmer's fence-sitting, either.
    I think Starmer is outright lying on the EU

    He does not expect a majority (rightly); if he gains power it will be with the help of the Libs and maybe other minor parties. The smaller parties will demand a move to the SM and CU, in some form. Korma will sigh and reluctantly agree, for the good of the nation and to prevent a Tory govt

    Politically, highly astute. Morally, very questionable
    Can't see it. SM and CU membership aren't things you can just pick off the shelf - it will probably require years of negotiation. Sir Keir won't want to get bogged down by all that in a hung parliament with the Tories ready to play the 'Labour Cancelled Brexit' card at the next GE. Sir Keir will want to shelve the Brexit stuff and, ideally, leave it to a Tory successor of Boris to sort out.
    Fair, but I am trying to picture the pressures there will be, on Starmer, to move towards the EU

    Labour might be a one term govt. It could be their only chance to reverse a chunk of Brexit, and many on his side are DESPERATE to do that

    We shall see
    TELEGRAPH:
    Sir Keir Starmer is facing a Labour revolt over Brexit after he vowed not to take Britain back into the Single Market.

    In a keynote speech on Britain’s future outside the European Union, Sir Keir pledged to “make Brexit work” and said he would not seek to join the Single Market or a customs union.

    But before he had even delivered his remarks, the Labour leader faced a backlash from within his own ranks, with Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London, openly contradicting him.


    A beautifully orchestrated artificial row, to highlight Starmer as being a commanding leader.
    Splitters splitting.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,838

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Government minister openly attacking his own government’s policy 👇 https://twitter.com/greghands/status/1544032775191289856

    I doubt it will be long before some senior Labour remainer breaks with Starmer's fence-sitting, either.
    I think Starmer is outright lying on the EU

    He does not expect a majority (rightly); if he gains power it will be with the help of the Libs and maybe other minor parties. The smaller parties will demand a move to the SM and CU, in some form. Korma will sigh and reluctantly agree, for the good of the nation and to prevent a Tory govt

    Politically, highly astute. Morally, very questionable
    Can't see it. SM and CU membership aren't things you can just pick off the shelf - it will probably require years of negotiation. Sir Keir won't want to get bogged down by all that in a hung parliament with the Tories ready to play the 'Labour Cancelled Brexit' card at the next GE. Sir Keir will want to shelve the Brexit stuff and, ideally, leave it to a Tory successor of Boris to sort out.
    Fair, but I am trying to picture the pressures there will be, on Starmer, to move towards the EU

    Labour might be a one term govt. It could be their only chance to reverse a chunk of Brexit, and many on his side are DESPERATE to do that

    We shall see
    TELEGRAPH:
    Sir Keir Starmer is facing a Labour revolt over Brexit after he vowed not to take Britain back into the Single Market.

    In a keynote speech on Britain’s future outside the European Union, Sir Keir pledged to “make Brexit work” and said he would not seek to join the Single Market or a customs union.

    But before he had even delivered his remarks, the Labour leader faced a backlash from within his own ranks, with Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London, openly contradicting him.


    Sadiq has no influence over Labour in Government, he's not an MP
    I do wonder how Slab feel from a markedly pro-EU Scotland.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,220
    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Government minister openly attacking his own government’s policy 👇 https://twitter.com/greghands/status/1544032775191289856

    I doubt it will be long before some senior Labour remainer breaks with Starmer's fence-sitting, either.
    I think Starmer is outright lying on the EU

    He does not expect a majority (rightly); if he gains power it will be with the help of the Libs and maybe other minor parties. The smaller parties will demand a move to the SM and CU, in some form. Korma will sigh and reluctantly agree, for the good of the nation and to prevent a Tory govt

    Politically, highly astute. Morally, very questionable
    Can't see it. SM and CU membership aren't things you can just pick off the shelf - it will probably require years of negotiation. Sir Keir won't want to get bogged down by all that in a hung parliament with the Tories ready to play the 'Labour Cancelled Brexit' card at the next GE. Sir Keir will want to shelve the Brexit stuff and, ideally, leave it to a Tory successor of Boris to sort out.
    Fair, but I am trying to picture the pressures there will be, on Starmer, to move towards the EU

    Labour might be a one term govt. It could be their only chance to reverse a chunk of Brexit, and many on his side are DESPERATE to do that

    We shall see
    TELEGRAPH:
    Sir Keir Starmer is facing a Labour revolt over Brexit after he vowed not to take Britain back into the Single Market.

    In a keynote speech on Britain’s future outside the European Union, Sir Keir pledged to “make Brexit work” and said he would not seek to join the Single Market or a customs union.

    But before he had even delivered his remarks, the Labour leader faced a backlash from within his own ranks, with Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London, openly contradicting him.


    If Labour Europhiles are unhappy, it's a good day's work for SKS.

    One of the ways you can tell that a leader of the opposition is on their way to No 10 is when they are confident enough to go against their own supporters.

    (And, whisper it quietly, if Starmer moves the UK from a trajectory flying away from the EU to one in a clear but distant orbit, he's done as much as he can do 2024-9. But also as much as he needs to do. He won't promise signing up to the Single Market, because that would be electoral kryptonite, and probably still will be in 2023/4/5. But he can tweak the climate so that it's a plausible option to offer in 2029/30.

    Long-term, the Starmer Plan will work less badly than the Johnson plan, but not well enough. But the government is going to have to follow the people on this one, and that will take time...)
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784

    If it weren't for Jeremy Corbyn, I do not believe Johnson would've won a majority. We in Labour have a lot to answer for

    Don't blame me, I never voted for him!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Jesus H, the Republicans can’t even do basic maths now.

    https://twitter.com/santiagomayer_/status/1543983844059222017
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906
    I'm really struggling to understand the wisdom of Starmer's Brexit position. He has ruled out almost everything Remainers want as a sop, and left himself essentially arguing for a harder Brexit than many Brexiteers support. This has the feel of something that is going to end up biting Starmer on the arse, probably after he weakens his promises to appease Labour supporters, and ends up with the Tories saying "he's going to rejoin the EU". He could have said "we'll do better" without painting himself into a corner.
  • Boris Johnson’s net favourability rating has made new lows (-32%), while about as many voters approve of Keir Starmer as disapprove, which, while nothing to celebrate, puts him 30 points ahead of the PM on this measure.

    Yes but the reason that both parties are more more popular than their leaders is both about Borus Johnson. The ones that would vote Con despite him make Con more popular than him, those that would vote Lab because of him make the Labour party more popular than Keir!
This discussion has been closed.