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Nine months of Johnson exit betting turbulence – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    edited June 2022
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    So, suppose the SNP do plan on using the 2024 GE as a plebiscite for indy, if Boris and the Supreme Court say no...
    We get the following result:
    Labour - 283
    Con - 275
    SNP - 48
    Lib Dems - 20
    What does Starmer do? What does Sturgeon do?

    Starmer forms a minority government with the LDs on those numbers and also ignores the SNP beyond a Brown commission on devomax
    Report tonight Boris may allow indyref2 and to be honest it would be the right thing to do
    No there isn't, anywhere. If he did then he would lose a VONC and be removed straight away
    All the government said was "Our position remains unchanged that both ours and the Scottish Government's priority should be working together with a relentless focus on the issues that we know matter to people up and down the country.

    "That remains our priority, but a decision has been taken by the First Minister, so we will carefully study the details of the proposal, and the Supreme Court will now consider whether to accept the Scottish Government's Lord Advocate referral".
    I have just published that and you repeat it for some strange reason

    Why are you so scared of a vote that is winnable
    It is 50/50 at the moment and even if it was won the SNP would demand another referendum the UK government having been so weak as to allow an indyref2 before a generation had elapsed.

    No, this Tory government must go full hardcore Madrid Catalonia 2017 if needed, no official indyref2 allowed under any circumstance whatsoever and Unionists to boycott any wildcat referendum
    I am not convinced at your second paragraph. Telling the Scottish people (well any people for that matter) that they can't have something is most likely to make them want to double down against the denyers. People who don't want to vote indy could well end up doing so out of sheer bloody-mindedness.

    On the other hand Johnson needs to be careful as the vote, whilst he remains PM, will be on a knife- edge. He could become the PM who both did Brexit, and did for the Union.

    They can't if they have no vote. Madrid has successfully refused an official independence referendum for 5 years in Catalonia, indeed in 2017 it not only refused to recognise the Catalan independence referendum, it imposed temporary direct rule and the arrest was ordered of nationalist leaders for sedition, forcing many into exile.

    Nothing must be off the table in order to take on the SNP
    But it doesn't really work like that.

    P*ss people off, particularly Scottish people, and they will punish you. Scottish Labour is your salutory lesson here.

    As for your tanks on the Royal Mile, forget it, that will never happen.
    No they won't. 71% of Scots don't want an indyref2 in 2023.

    https://www.scotlandinunion.co.uk/post/new-poll-only-29-support-indyref2-in-2023

    The UK government can and must stand up to Sturgeon, Westminster and Westminster alone has the final say on the Union and that is from the very legislation that set up Holyrood.

    Scottish Labour was weak, the SNP must be dealt with with a rod of iron
    Definition of rule with a rod of iron
    : to rule a country, area, group, etc., in a very strict and often cruel way The dictator ruled (the country) with a rod of iron.

    (Miriam Webster)

    You FUDHY are a very odd little man. Do you have a neat little moustache, intimacy issues and a desire for Lebensraum?
    No, if we really wanted to do that we would scrap Holyrood and impose direct rule from Westminster having evicted Scottish MPs.

    Ruling out indyref2 is a mild response
    You accept that NI should have a border poll if a majority wants it. Why not Scotland?
    As the GFA does not apply to Scotland, the Scotland Act 1998 reserves the future of the Union to Westminster
    Louisville is not a part of the United Kingdom.

    So what.

    If you accept that NI has the right under certain conditions to vote for "independence" then you must support Scotland's right also.
    No I don't as Scotland does not have the history of terrorism NI does plus it has already had one once a generation independence referendum
    Again irrelevant. They are both would be "independent" nations. You cannot support the aspirations of one group and not the other.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,164

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    He’s in stepmom territory.

    He’s also a Brexiteer which is why he loses and Hunt holds on easily.
    Both would lose their seats to the LDs on current polls
    Hunt would not lose his seat on any current polling.
    Surrey SW needs a 7% swing to go LD, the Tory voteshare is already down 10% in some polls.

    The LDs already control the local council with Residents' groups
    So it needs a larger swing than current polling (it requires 7.8% swing actually)

    You said 'both would lose their seats on current polling'

    That is inaccurate. Hunt would not lose his seat based on current polling. Facts are facts.
    Latest Yougov poll has the Tory voteshare on 34% ie down 9% on 2019. A 9% swing from Tory to LD would indeed see Hunt lose his seat

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1541740721413259266?t=v6dSQ34PIMbaFN6GQayFaQ&s=19
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 7,174

    algarkirk said:

    What kind of perverted weirdo have you got to be to oppose feeding babies?

    How is it possible to be so distanced from the better angels of our nature?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-61977754

    What kind of a jackass would go out of their way to harass a nursing mother breastfeeding her baby INSIDE HER OWN CAR?

    Talk about "inappropriate"! Sounds more like "actionable" to me - on the part of the mom.
    Yes, time the 'theres a time and a place' crew understood that the time is when baby is hungry and the place is where baby is hungry
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,029
    Nigelb said:

    NEW on US policy on Turkish F16s: On the record from Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs Celeste Wallander: "The US fully supports Turkey’s modernization plans for Turkey’s F-16 fleet...
    https://twitter.com/nickschifrin/status/1542093892346077184

    One of the more surprising items on Erdogan's extortion wishlist was participation in PESCO. Erdogan obviously has one eye on a possible post-NATO future.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,796

    Applicant said:

    I notice Steve Brey has had his equipment in Parliament Square stolen by the police and received a court summons for protesting. What a country we live in now.

    I’m so torn by this.

    I’m in favour of the right to protest yet his protests go too far on occasions.

    I’ve seen him harass MPs having drinks/food with their families.
    if you mean the clip of him harassing the MP. They are fair game. What the clip doesn't show is that he stopped as soon as the family arrived. Typical tory truth editing.
    It's fair game to abuse people for years because he's a sad bitter twunt who can't accept that he lost?
    No, he's calling out the duplicity and corruption of certain members of the parliament perfectly legally. I suppose you're pleased for the UK to be a member of the same club as Nazi Germany? North Korea? Russia?
    Do you think that the Gendarmes would have let him do the same outside the Palais Bourbon?
    So what?
    We're allegedly in the same club as the Nazis now; whose club are the French in with their protestor thrashing Gendarmerie?
    Why bother with the French as a comparison? I'll concede the suppression of protest in the UK is not as bad as it is in Russia or China. So that's all fine then.
    Come off it, no-one is stopping Steve Bray protesting as much as he likes. What they are stopping him from doing is making an infernal noise all the time. Given that he's been at it every day for years, a quite remarkable, one might say excessive, amount of patience has been shown him.
    I was arguing against @BlancheLivermore's point that whatever our protester suppression France even is worse, so that's ok.
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,017
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    So, suppose the SNP do plan on using the 2024 GE as a plebiscite for indy, if Boris and the Supreme Court say no...
    We get the following result:
    Labour - 283
    Con - 275
    SNP - 48
    Lib Dems - 20
    What does Starmer do? What does Sturgeon do?

    Starmer forms a minority government with the LDs on those numbers and also ignores the SNP beyond a Brown commission on devomax
    Report tonight Boris may allow indyref2 and to be honest it would be the right thing to do
    No there isn't, anywhere. If he did then he would lose a VONC and be removed straight away
    All the government said was "Our position remains unchanged that both ours and the Scottish Government's priority should be working together with a relentless focus on the issues that we know matter to people up and down the country.

    "That remains our priority, but a decision has been taken by the First Minister, so we will carefully study the details of the proposal, and the Supreme Court will now consider whether to accept the Scottish Government's Lord Advocate referral".
    I have just published that and you repeat it for some strange reason

    Why are you so scared of a vote that is winnable
    It is 50/50 at the moment and even if it was won the SNP would demand another referendum the UK government having been so weak as to allow an indyref2 before a generation had elapsed.

    No, this Tory government must go full hardcore Madrid Catalonia 2017 if needed, no official indyref2 allowed under any circumstance whatsoever and Unionists to boycott any wildcat referendum
    I am not convinced at your second paragraph. Telling the Scottish people (well any people for that matter) that they can't have something is most likely to make them want to double down against the denyers. People who don't want to vote indy could well end up doing so out of sheer bloody-mindedness.

    On the other hand Johnson needs to be careful as the vote, whilst he remains PM, will be on a knife- edge. He could become the PM who both did Brexit, and did for the Union.

    They can't if they have no vote. Madrid has successfully refused an official independence referendum for 5 years in Catalonia, indeed in 2017 it not only refused to recognise the Catalan independence referendum, it imposed temporary direct rule and the arrest was ordered of nationalist leaders for sedition, forcing many into exile.

    Nothing must be off the table in order to take on the SNP
    But it doesn't really work like that.

    P*ss people off, particularly Scottish people, and they will punish you. Scottish Labour is your salutory lesson here.

    As for your tanks on the Royal Mile, forget it, that will never happen.
    No they won't. 71% of Scots don't want an indyref2 in 2023.

    https://www.scotlandinunion.co.uk/post/new-poll-only-29-support-indyref2-in-2023

    The UK government can and must stand up to Sturgeon, Westminster and Westminster alone has the final say on the Union and that is from the very legislation that set up Holyrood.

    Scottish Labour was weak, the SNP must be dealt with with a rod of iron
    Definition of rule with a rod of iron
    : to rule a country, area, group, etc., in a very strict and often cruel way The dictator ruled (the country) with a rod of iron.

    (Miriam Webster)

    You FUDHY are a very odd little man. Do you have a neat little moustache, intimacy issues and a desire for Lebensraum?
    No, if we really wanted to do that we would scrap Holyrood and impose direct rule from Westminster having evicted Scottish MPs.

    Ruling out indyref2 is a mild response
    You accept that NI should have a border poll if a majority wants it. Why not Scotland?
    As the GFA does not apply to Scotland, the Scotland Act 1998 reserves the future of the Union to Westminster
    Louisville is not a part of the United Kingdom.

    So what.

    If you accept that NI has the right under certain conditions to vote for "independence" then you must support Scotland's right also.
    No I don't as Scotland does not have the history of terrorism NI does plus it has already had one once a generation independence referendum
    So you are saying that Scotland should have a campaign of terrorism in order to be allowed a referendum? Is that official Conservative policy?
  • Options

    This is brilliant.




    My mum would always use please and thank you with Alexa
    I do.

    Its a good habit to be in, in general, and a good way to demonstrate to kids that you should always be using your manners.

    I read a report about kids taking curt speaking with Alexa into schools and speaking to teachers like they'd speak to Alexa, and since then I've always tried to make sure since that the example I set with Alexa is how I'd want them to behave with people. 👍
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 7,174
    edited June 2022
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    He’s in stepmom territory.

    He’s also a Brexiteer which is why he loses and Hunt holds on easily.
    Both would lose their seats to the LDs on current polls
    Hunt would not lose his seat on any current polling.
    Surrey SW needs a 7% swing to go LD, the Tory voteshare is already down 10% in some polls.

    The LDs already control the local council with Residents' groups
    So it needs a larger swing than current polling (it requires 7.8% swing actually)

    You said 'both would lose their seats on current polling'

    That is inaccurate. Hunt would not lose his seat based on current polling. Facts are facts.
    Latest Yougov poll has the Tory voteshare on 34% ie down 9% on 2019. A 9% swing from Tory to LD would indeed see Hunt lose his seat

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1541740721413259266?t=v6dSQ34PIMbaFN6GQayFaQ&s=19
    That is not a 9% swing, its a 4.5% swing. Less in fact as that poll has LDs on 9, so its a 3.5% swing
    You are just wrong. No poll shows Hunt losing his seat.
    He could lose his seat, sure, anyone could, but no polling shows that.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    So, suppose the SNP do plan on using the 2024 GE as a plebiscite for indy, if Boris and the Supreme Court say no...
    We get the following result:
    Labour - 283
    Con - 275
    SNP - 48
    Lib Dems - 20
    What does Starmer do? What does Sturgeon do?

    Starmer forms a minority government with the LDs on those numbers and also ignores the SNP beyond a Brown commission on devomax
    Report tonight Boris may allow indyref2 and to be honest it would be the right thing to do
    No there isn't, anywhere. If he did then he would lose a VONC and be removed straight away
    All the government said was "Our position remains unchanged that both ours and the Scottish Government's priority should be working together with a relentless focus on the issues that we know matter to people up and down the country.

    "That remains our priority, but a decision has been taken by the First Minister, so we will carefully study the details of the proposal, and the Supreme Court will now consider whether to accept the Scottish Government's Lord Advocate referral".
    I have just published that and you repeat it for some strange reason

    Why are you so scared of a vote that is winnable
    It is 50/50 at the moment and even if it was won the SNP would demand another referendum the UK government having been so weak as to allow an indyref2 before a generation had elapsed.

    No, this Tory government must go full hardcore Madrid Catalonia 2017 if needed, no official indyref2 allowed under any circumstance whatsoever and Unionists to boycott any wildcat referendum
    I am not convinced at your second paragraph. Telling the Scottish people (well any people for that matter) that they can't have something is most likely to make them want to double down against the denyers. People who don't want to vote indy could well end up doing so out of sheer bloody-mindedness.

    On the other hand Johnson needs to be careful as the vote, whilst he remains PM, will be on a knife- edge. He could become the PM who both did Brexit, and did for the Union.

    They can't if they have no vote. Madrid has successfully refused an official independence referendum for 5 years in Catalonia, indeed in 2017 it not only refused to recognise the Catalan independence referendum, it imposed temporary direct rule and the arrest was ordered of nationalist leaders for sedition, forcing many into exile.

    Nothing must be off the table in order to take on the SNP
    But it doesn't really work like that.

    P*ss people off, particularly Scottish people, and they will punish you. Scottish Labour is your salutory lesson here.

    As for your tanks on the Royal Mile, forget it, that will never happen.
    No they won't. 71% of Scots don't want an indyref2 in 2023.

    https://www.scotlandinunion.co.uk/post/new-poll-only-29-support-indyref2-in-2023

    The UK government can and must stand up to Sturgeon, Westminster and Westminster alone has the final say on the Union and that is from the very legislation that set up Holyrood.

    Scottish Labour was weak, the SNP must be dealt with with a rod of iron
    Definition of rule with a rod of iron
    : to rule a country, area, group, etc., in a very strict and often cruel way The dictator ruled (the country) with a rod of iron.

    (Miriam Webster)

    You FUDHY are a very odd little man. Do you have a neat little moustache, intimacy issues and a desire for Lebensraum?
    No, if we really wanted to do that we would scrap Holyrood and impose direct rule from Westminster having evicted Scottish MPs.

    Ruling out indyref2 is a mild response
    You accept that NI should have a border poll if a majority wants it. Why not Scotland?
    As the GFA does not apply to Scotland, the Scotland Act 1998 reserves the future of the Union to Westminster
    Louisville is not a part of the United Kingdom.

    So what.

    If you accept that NI has the right under certain conditions to vote for "independence" then you must support Scotland's right also.
    No I don't as Scotland does not have the history of terrorism NI does plus it has already had one once a generation independence referendum
    So you are saying that Scotland should have a campaign of terrorism in order to be allowed a referendum? Is that official Conservative policy?
    I mean there was that as well.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,797
    I don't understand this.
    If we genuinely support Ukraine, its every bit as much in our interests as theirs to defeat the invasion sooner rather than later.

    Ukraine wants to win today, the West is looking at 2023
    U.S. and allied leaders at the NATO summit in Madrid acknowledge Ukraine's urgent requests for weapons, but they aren’t biting on the timeline.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/29/ukraine-wants-to-win-today-the-west-is-looking-at-2023-00043087
  • Options

    Applicant said:

    I notice Steve Brey has had his equipment in Parliament Square stolen by the police and received a court summons for protesting. What a country we live in now.

    I’m so torn by this.

    I’m in favour of the right to protest yet his protests go too far on occasions.

    I’ve seen him harass MPs having drinks/food with their families.
    if you mean the clip of him harassing the MP. They are fair game. What the clip doesn't show is that he stopped as soon as the family arrived. Typical tory truth editing.
    It's fair game to abuse people for years because he's a sad bitter twunt who can't accept that he lost?
    No, he's calling out the duplicity and corruption of certain members of the parliament perfectly legally. I suppose you're pleased for the UK to be a member of the same club as Nazi Germany? North Korea? Russia?
    Do you think that the Gendarmes would have let him do the same outside the Palais Bourbon?
    So what?
    We're allegedly in the same club as the Nazis now; whose club are the French in with their protestor thrashing Gendarmerie?
    Why bother with the French as a comparison? I'll concede the suppression of protest in the UK is not as bad as it is in Russia or China. So that's all fine then.
    Come off it, no-one is stopping Steve Bray protesting as much as he likes. What they are stopping him from doing is making an infernal noise all the time. Given that he's been at it every day for years, a quite remarkable, one might say excessive, amount of patience has been shown him.
    I was arguing against @BlancheLivermore's point that whatever our protester suppression France even is worse, so that's ok.
    My point in raising France was because we were being called as bad as Nazis, North Korea and Russia. That was a fucking ludicrous claim. We're not even as bad as France FFS.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    In idle Ukraine thoughts I think Ukraine have a big problem in Lysychansk. It's main road out is all but captured with town on the path under severe attack.

    They have significant numbers of troops there and the Russians and slowly, slowly, slowly encircling them.

    Ukraine have put som much into defending Sivierdonetsk that they have left their flanks exposed.
  • Options

    algarkirk said:

    What kind of perverted weirdo have you got to be to oppose feeding babies?

    How is it possible to be so distanced from the better angels of our nature?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-61977754

    What kind of a jackass would go out of their way to harass a nursing mother breastfeeding her baby INSIDE HER OWN CAR?

    Talk about "inappropriate"! Sounds more like "actionable" to me - on the part of the mom.
    Yes, time the 'theres a time and a place' crew understood that the time is when baby is hungry and the place is where baby is hungry
    Well said. 👏

    Some people just don't think, and its not just to mothers either. I had a conversation once with someone who said he'd approached someone in the car park who was holding a blade to his wrist and he knocked on the door and said "you can't do that here". I was gobsmacked, he didn't think to offer any help or call anyone, instead he just told the driver to go home and not do that in our car park. 🤦‍♂️
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,164

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    He’s in stepmom territory.

    He’s also a Brexiteer which is why he loses and Hunt holds on easily.
    Both would lose their seats to the LDs on current polls
    Hunt would not lose his seat on any current polling.
    Surrey SW needs a 7% swing to go LD, the Tory voteshare is already down 10% in some polls.

    The LDs already control the local council with Residents' groups
    So it needs a larger swing than current polling (it requires 7.8% swing actually)

    You said 'both would lose their seats on current polling'

    That is inaccurate. Hunt would not lose his seat based on current polling. Facts are facts.
    Latest Yougov poll has the Tory voteshare on 34% ie down 9% on 2019. A 9% swing from Tory to LD would indeed see Hunt lose his seat

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1541740721413259266?t=v6dSQ34PIMbaFN6GQayFaQ&s=19
    That is not a 9% swing, its a 4.5% swing. Less in fact as that poll has LDs on 9, so its a 3.5% swing
    You are just wrong. No poll shows Hunt losing his seat.
    He could lose his seat, sure, anyone could, but no polling shows that.
    No it is a 9% swing as where the LDs are the Tories main opponents as in SW Surrey anti Tory tactical votes would go LD not Labour
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 7,174
    edited June 2022

    algarkirk said:

    What kind of perverted weirdo have you got to be to oppose feeding babies?

    How is it possible to be so distanced from the better angels of our nature?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-61977754

    What kind of a jackass would go out of their way to harass a nursing mother breastfeeding her baby INSIDE HER OWN CAR?

    Talk about "inappropriate"! Sounds more like "actionable" to me - on the part of the mom.
    Yes, time the 'theres a time and a place' crew understood that the time is when baby is hungry and the place is where baby is hungry
    Well said. 👏

    Some people just don't think, and its not just to mothers either. I had a conversation once with someone who said he'd approached someone in the car park who was holding a blade to his wrist and he knocked on the door and said "you can't do that here". I was gobsmacked, he didn't think to offer any help or call anyone, instead he just told the driver to go home and not do that in our car park. 🤦‍♂️
    Crazy disconnects from the reality of other people having lives, loves, responsibilities, duties, horrors etc of their own that don't fit into 'my experience and expectation of existence'
  • Options
    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    He’s in stepmom territory.

    He’s also a Brexiteer which is why he loses and Hunt holds on easily.
    Both would lose their seats to the LDs on current polls
    Hunt would not lose his seat on any current polling.
    Surrey SW needs a 7% swing to go LD, the Tory voteshare is already down 10% in some polls.

    The LDs already control the local council with Residents' groups
    So it needs a larger swing than current polling (it requires 7.8% swing actually)

    You said 'both would lose their seats on current polling'

    That is inaccurate. Hunt would not lose his seat based on current polling. Facts are facts.
    Latest Yougov poll has the Tory voteshare on 34% ie down 9% on 2019. A 9% swing from Tory to LD would indeed see Hunt lose his seat

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1541740721413259266?t=v6dSQ34PIMbaFN6GQayFaQ&s=19
    That is not a 9% swing, its a 4.5% swing. Less in fact as that poll has LDs on 9, so its a 3.5% swing
    You are just wrong. No poll shows Hunt losing his seat.
    He could lose his seat, sure, anyone could, but no polling shows that.
    No it is a 9% swing as where the LDs are the Tories main opponents as in SW Surrey anti Tory tactical votes would go LD not Labour
    Probably academic anyway as Surrey gains a seat in the boundary review and Hunt will almost certainly 'migrate' to the very safe one that also includes a part of Hampshire.

    Raab is toast.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,913
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Whether it's London or Kigali, rowing with the royals or his party, Johnson appears unrepentant, unreflective.

    After the Prince Charles debacle an aide to the PM said he had limited time to spend on “humouring men in tights.”

    Johnson's grand tour: https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-nato-g7-love-world-stage/

    Good.

    Boris should go, but our unelected monarchs have no role to play in overriding policies that Parliament has approved. Charles should butt out of politics, if he doesn't then hopefully he'll be removed from office like the original Charles - although he should be retired rather than reaching the same grizzly fate.
    Charles isn't in office yet as monarch and has overriden no policies, merely commented as Prince of Wales. He told Jonathan Dimbleby when interviewed as King he would act differently than as Prince and in the Queen’s Speech read out the Government's proposed legislation without comment
    Oh, you mean he'll stop interfering and act like his mum? Who interfered in indyref 1, and in Scottish legislation to her benefit?

    "The review by Johnstone of Holyrood’s rules was triggered by Guardian articles last summer that revealed the extent of the monarch’s vetting of Scottish bills.

    Documents uncovered by the Scottish Liberal Democrats also showed the Queen’s lawyers had secretly lobbied Scottish ministers to change a draft law to exempt her private land from a major initiative to cut carbon emissions.

    The exemption meant the Queen was the only private landowner in Scotland who was not required to facilitate the construction of pipelines to heat buildings using renewable energy."


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jun/28/queens-approval-laws-more-transparent-scottish-ministers-told
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jun/28/prince-charles-pressured-ministers-change-law-queen-consent
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,913
    JohnO said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    He’s in stepmom territory.

    He’s also a Brexiteer which is why he loses and Hunt holds on easily.
    Both would lose their seats to the LDs on current polls
    Hunt would not lose his seat on any current polling.
    Surrey SW needs a 7% swing to go LD, the Tory voteshare is already down 10% in some polls.

    The LDs already control the local council with Residents' groups
    So it needs a larger swing than current polling (it requires 7.8% swing actually)

    You said 'both would lose their seats on current polling'

    That is inaccurate. Hunt would not lose his seat based on current polling. Facts are facts.
    Latest Yougov poll has the Tory voteshare on 34% ie down 9% on 2019. A 9% swing from Tory to LD would indeed see Hunt lose his seat

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1541740721413259266?t=v6dSQ34PIMbaFN6GQayFaQ&s=19
    That is not a 9% swing, its a 4.5% swing. Less in fact as that poll has LDs on 9, so its a 3.5% swing
    You are just wrong. No poll shows Hunt losing his seat.
    He could lose his seat, sure, anyone could, but no polling shows that.
    No it is a 9% swing as where the LDs are the Tories main opponents as in SW Surrey anti Tory tactical votes would go LD not Labour
    Probably academic anyway as Surrey gains a seat in the boundary review and Hunt will almost certainly 'migrate' to the very safe one that also includes a part of Hampshire.

    Raab is toast.
    Raab C. Brexit will Exit?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,164
    JohnO said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    He’s in stepmom territory.

    He’s also a Brexiteer which is why he loses and Hunt holds on easily.
    Both would lose their seats to the LDs on current polls
    Hunt would not lose his seat on any current polling.
    Surrey SW needs a 7% swing to go LD, the Tory voteshare is already down 10% in some polls.

    The LDs already control the local council with Residents' groups
    So it needs a larger swing than current polling (it requires 7.8% swing actually)

    You said 'both would lose their seats on current polling'

    That is inaccurate. Hunt would not lose his seat based on current polling. Facts are facts.
    Latest Yougov poll has the Tory voteshare on 34% ie down 9% on 2019. A 9% swing from Tory to LD would indeed see Hunt lose his seat

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1541740721413259266?t=v6dSQ34PIMbaFN6GQayFaQ&s=19
    That is not a 9% swing, its a 4.5% swing. Less in fact as that poll has LDs on 9, so its a 3.5% swing
    You are just wrong. No poll shows Hunt losing his seat.
    He could lose his seat, sure, anyone could, but no polling shows that.
    No it is a 9% swing as where the LDs are the Tories main opponents as in SW Surrey anti Tory tactical votes would go LD not Labour
    Probably academic anyway as Surrey gains a seat in the boundary review and Hunt will almost certainly 'migrate' to the very safe one that also includes a part of Hampshire.

    Raab is toast.
    Even on the new boundaries on current polls Hunt's voteshare would be 40%, vulnerable still if heavy Labour to LD tactical voting

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/calcwork23.py?seat=Farnham and Bordon
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,489
    edited June 2022
    algarkirk said:

    What kind of perverted weirdo have you got to be to oppose feeding babies?

    How is it possible to be so distanced from the better angels of our nature?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-61977754

    Completely off-topic, but what's with the butterflies in the first pic? Filter on the photo (they look added to the pic, to me) or some kind of actual jewellery?

    I've absolutely no problem with either, just intrigued at the why if a filter (what could possibly improve a pic of you with your newborn?) and the why and the practicalities if actually real - I've never seen such a thing.

    Edit: on the story, been in the breastfeeding in the supermarket car park situation (not me personally, due to lacking the kit, but present) more than once. To think someone would challenge that is more than bizarre.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001
    Alistair said:

    In idle Ukraine thoughts I think Ukraine have a big problem in Lysychansk. It's main road out is all but captured with town on the path under severe attack.

    Main road (& only way out of the cauldron) is covered 3 ways by Russian artillery according to my sources.
  • Options
    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,819
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    He’s in stepmom territory.

    He’s also a Brexiteer which is why he loses and Hunt holds on easily.
    Both would lose their seats to the LDs on current polls
    Hunt would not lose his seat on any current polling.
    Surrey SW needs a 7% swing to go LD, the Tory voteshare is already down 10% in some polls.

    The LDs already control the local council with Residents' groups
    So it needs a larger swing than current polling (it requires 7.8% swing actually)

    You said 'both would lose their seats on current polling'

    That is inaccurate. Hunt would not lose his seat based on current polling. Facts are facts.
    Latest Yougov poll has the Tory voteshare on 34% ie down 9% on 2019. A 9% swing from Tory to LD would indeed see Hunt lose his seat

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1541740721413259266?t=v6dSQ34PIMbaFN6GQayFaQ&s=19
    A 9% swing would indeed.

    A 9% swing from Con to LD requires Con to drop 9% (which you have shown) AND Lib Dems to increase by 9%. Which you have not shown.
    To be honest, if the Lib Dems were polling 21%, it would be very significant.

    A 7.8% swing means that a 15.6% gap needs to be made up.
    If the Tories drop by 9%, then that requires the Lib Dems to increase by 6.6%.
    If polling is showing that, then the polling would indeed indicate Hunt is to lose his seat based on current polls.

    I would assert that it is not showing that. The current swing is c. 5%, not 7.6%.

    It may well be that local considerations would boost the Lib Dems' chances in Hunt's seat, but that would be based on local considerations plus polling. Basing it on current polling alone (implying UNS) is not the case.
  • Options
    ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Whether it's London or Kigali, rowing with the royals or his party, Johnson appears unrepentant, unreflective.

    After the Prince Charles debacle an aide to the PM said he had limited time to spend on “humouring men in tights.”

    Johnson's grand tour: https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-nato-g7-love-world-stage/

    Good.

    Boris should go, but our unelected monarchs have no role to play in overriding policies that Parliament has approved. Charles should butt out of politics, if he doesn't then hopefully he'll be removed from office like the original Charles - although he should be retired rather than reaching the same grizzly fate.
    Charles isn't in office yet as monarch and has overriden no policies, merely commented as Prince of Wales. He told Jonathan Dimbleby when interviewed as King he would act differently than as Prince and in the Queen’s Speech read out the Government's proposed legislation without comment
    Oh, you mean he'll stop interfering and act like his mum? Who interfered in indyref 1
    You voted without thinking?
  • Options
    Selebian said:

    algarkirk said:

    What kind of perverted weirdo have you got to be to oppose feeding babies?

    How is it possible to be so distanced from the better angels of our nature?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-61977754

    Completely off-topic, but what's with the butterflies in the first pic? Filter on the photo (they look added to the pic, to me) or some kind of actual jewellery?

    I've absolutely no problem with either, just intrigued at the why if a filter (what could possibly improve a pic of you with your newborn?) and the why and the practicalities if actually real - I've never seen such a thing.
    Filter and its a selfie (the photographer given credit is herself). Some people, especially young women, almost always seem to use filters nowadays.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    So, suppose the SNP do plan on using the 2024 GE as a plebiscite for indy, if Boris and the Supreme Court say no...
    We get the following result:
    Labour - 283
    Con - 275
    SNP - 48
    Lib Dems - 20
    What does Starmer do? What does Sturgeon do?

    Starmer forms a minority government with the LDs on those numbers and also ignores the SNP beyond a Brown commission on devomax
    Report tonight Boris may allow indyref2 and to be honest it would be the right thing to do
    No there isn't, anywhere. If he did then he would lose a VONC and be removed straight away
    All the government said was "Our position remains unchanged that both ours and the Scottish Government's priority should be working together with a relentless focus on the issues that we know matter to people up and down the country.

    "That remains our priority, but a decision has been taken by the First Minister, so we will carefully study the details of the proposal, and the Supreme Court will now consider whether to accept the Scottish Government's Lord Advocate referral".
    I have just published that and you repeat it for some strange reason

    Why are you so scared of a vote that is winnable
    It is 50/50 at the moment and even if it was won the SNP would demand another referendum the UK government having been so weak as to allow an indyref2 before a generation had elapsed.

    No, this Tory government must go full hardcore Madrid Catalonia 2017 if needed, no official indyref2 allowed under any circumstance whatsoever and Unionists to boycott any wildcat referendum
    I am not convinced at your second paragraph. Telling the Scottish people (well any people for that matter) that they can't have something is most likely to make them want to double down against the denyers. People who don't want to vote indy could well end up doing so out of sheer bloody-mindedness.

    On the other hand Johnson needs to be careful as the vote, whilst he remains PM, will be on a knife- edge. He could become the PM who both did Brexit, and did for the Union.

    They can't if they have no vote. Madrid has successfully refused an official independence referendum for 5 years in Catalonia, indeed in 2017 it not only refused to recognise the Catalan independence referendum, it imposed temporary direct rule and the arrest was ordered of nationalist leaders for sedition, forcing many into exile.

    Nothing must be off the table in order to take on the SNP
    But it doesn't really work like that.

    P*ss people off, particularly Scottish people, and they will punish you. Scottish Labour is your salutory lesson here.

    As for your tanks on the Royal Mile, forget it, that will never happen.
    No they won't. 71% of Scots don't want an indyref2 in 2023.

    https://www.scotlandinunion.co.uk/post/new-poll-only-29-support-indyref2-in-2023

    The UK government can and must stand up to Sturgeon, Westminster and Westminster alone has the final say on the Union and that is from the very legislation that set up Holyrood.

    Scottish Labour was weak, the SNP must be dealt with with a rod of iron
    Definition of rule with a rod of iron
    : to rule a country, area, group, etc., in a very strict and often cruel way The dictator ruled (the country) with a rod of iron.

    (Miriam Webster)

    You FUDHY are a very odd little man. Do you have a neat little moustache, intimacy issues and a desire for Lebensraum?
    No, if we really wanted to do that we would scrap Holyrood and impose direct rule from Westminster having evicted Scottish MPs.

    Ruling out indyref2 is a mild response
    You accept that NI should have a border poll if a majority wants it. Why not Scotland?
    As the GFA does not apply to Scotland, the Scotland Act 1998 reserves the future of the Union to Westminster
    Louisville is not a part of the United Kingdom.

    So what.

    If you accept that NI has the right under certain conditions to vote for "independence" then you must support Scotland's right also.
    No I don't as Scotland does not have the history of terrorism NI does plus it has already had one once a generation independence referendum
    So, you respect the rights of terrorists and denounce the rights of democrats. One wonders what kind of country England would become if people like FUDHY were allowed to drive their philosophy to its logical conclusion.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,164
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Whether it's London or Kigali, rowing with the royals or his party, Johnson appears unrepentant, unreflective.

    After the Prince Charles debacle an aide to the PM said he had limited time to spend on “humouring men in tights.”

    Johnson's grand tour: https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-nato-g7-love-world-stage/

    Good.

    Boris should go, but our unelected monarchs have no role to play in overriding policies that Parliament has approved. Charles should butt out of politics, if he doesn't then hopefully he'll be removed from office like the original Charles - although he should be retired rather than reaching the same grizzly fate.
    Charles isn't in office yet as monarch and has overriden no policies, merely commented as Prince of Wales. He told Jonathan Dimbleby when interviewed as King he would act differently than as Prince and in the Queen’s Speech read out the Government's proposed legislation without comment
    Oh, you mean he'll stop interfering and act like his mum? Who interfered in indyref 1, and in Scottish legislation to her benefit?

    "The review by Johnstone of Holyrood’s rules was triggered by Guardian articles last summer that revealed the extent of the monarch’s vetting of Scottish bills.

    Documents uncovered by the Scottish Liberal Democrats also showed the Queen’s lawyers had secretly lobbied Scottish ministers to change a draft law to exempt her private land from a major initiative to cut carbon emissions.

    The exemption meant the Queen was the only private landowner in Scotland who was not required to facilitate the construction of pipelines to heat buildings using renewable energy."


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jun/28/queens-approval-laws-more-transparent-scottish-ministers-told
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jun/28/prince-charles-pressured-ministers-change-law-queen-consent
    Parliament could still vote down that law as amended, the Queen did not veto it
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,489

    Selebian said:

    algarkirk said:

    What kind of perverted weirdo have you got to be to oppose feeding babies?

    How is it possible to be so distanced from the better angels of our nature?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-61977754

    Completely off-topic, but what's with the butterflies in the first pic? Filter on the photo (they look added to the pic, to me) or some kind of actual jewellery?

    I've absolutely no problem with either, just intrigued at the why if a filter (what could possibly improve a pic of you with your newborn?) and the why and the practicalities if actually real - I've never seen such a thing.
    Filter and its a selfie (the photographer given credit is herself). Some people, especially young women, almost always seem to use filters nowadays.
    Heh, thanks. To me, it just looks really odd and detracts from the photo, but each to their own. Guess I'm getting old!
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,029
    Nigelb said:

    I don't understand this.
    If we genuinely support Ukraine, its every bit as much in our interests as theirs to defeat the invasion sooner rather than later.

    I see the kopiyok is finally starting to drop among the yellow and blue pom-pom wielding cheerleaders.

    The US and EU don't want a decisive and quick Ukrainian victory, however defined, that either provokes Russia into an escalation or destabilises the entire Russian Federation. Hence the support which is always less than what was needed delivered some time after it would have been most useful.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 7,174
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    He’s in stepmom territory.

    He’s also a Brexiteer which is why he loses and Hunt holds on easily.
    Both would lose their seats to the LDs on current polls
    Hunt would not lose his seat on any current polling.
    Surrey SW needs a 7% swing to go LD, the Tory voteshare is already down 10% in some polls.

    The LDs already control the local council with Residents' groups
    So it needs a larger swing than current polling (it requires 7.8% swing actually)

    You said 'both would lose their seats on current polling'

    That is inaccurate. Hunt would not lose his seat based on current polling. Facts are facts.
    Latest Yougov poll has the Tory voteshare on 34% ie down 9% on 2019. A 9% swing from Tory to LD would indeed see Hunt lose his seat

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1541740721413259266?t=v6dSQ34PIMbaFN6GQayFaQ&s=19
    That is not a 9% swing, its a 4.5% swing. Less in fact as that poll has LDs on 9, so its a 3.5% swing
    You are just wrong. No poll shows Hunt losing his seat.
    He could lose his seat, sure, anyone could, but no polling shows that.
    No it is a 9% swing as where the LDs are the Tories main opponents as in SW Surrey anti Tory tactical votes would go LD not Labour
    That is an entirely different argument based on assumptions you cannot apply to national polling figures. Have you got a detailed breakdown of tactical voting intentions you can provide?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941
    edited June 2022
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    Normally Raab is ridiculed on here for being thick and useless
    He’s up against Angela Rayner, we’re in tallest dwarf territory.
    Politically correct as normal @TheScreamingEagles
    I’m just a plain speaking Northerner.

    No sugar coating it, you can’t change us.

    You are about as much a plain speaking Northerner as the Duke of Northumberland!
    Samantha Cameron - like Mr Eagles, she also grew up on an estate in Sheffield.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,164
    edited June 2022

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    He’s in stepmom territory.

    He’s also a Brexiteer which is why he loses and Hunt holds on easily.
    Both would lose their seats to the LDs on current polls
    Hunt would not lose his seat on any current polling.
    Surrey SW needs a 7% swing to go LD, the Tory voteshare is already down 10% in some polls.

    The LDs already control the local council with Residents' groups
    So it needs a larger swing than current polling (it requires 7.8% swing actually)

    You said 'both would lose their seats on current polling'

    That is inaccurate. Hunt would not lose his seat based on current polling. Facts are facts.
    Latest Yougov poll has the Tory voteshare on 34% ie down 9% on 2019. A 9% swing from Tory to LD would indeed see Hunt lose his seat

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1541740721413259266?t=v6dSQ34PIMbaFN6GQayFaQ&s=19
    That is not a 9% swing, its a 4.5% swing. Less in fact as that poll has LDs on 9, so its a 3.5% swing
    You are just wrong. No poll shows Hunt losing his seat.
    He could lose his seat, sure, anyone could, but no polling shows that.
    No it is a 9% swing as where the LDs are the Tories main opponents as in SW Surrey anti Tory tactical votes would go LD not Labour
    That is an entirely different argument based on assumptions you cannot apply to national polling figures. Have you got a detailed breakdown of tactical voting intentions you can provide?
    If the swing to the LDs in Hunt's seat is anything like Tiverton and Honiton or Chesham and Amersham or North Shropshire then Hunt is toast as much as Raab, boundary changes or not.

    As 1997 showed in Tory LD marginals there was about the same swing to the LDs as to Labour in Tory Labour marginals, even if the LD voteshare nationally was fractionally down
  • Options
    KeystoneKeystone Posts: 127

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Whether it's London or Kigali, rowing with the royals or his party, Johnson appears unrepentant, unreflective.

    After the Prince Charles debacle an aide to the PM said he had limited time to spend on “humouring men in tights.”

    Johnson's grand tour: https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-nato-g7-love-world-stage/

    Good.

    Boris should go, but our unelected monarchs have no role to play in overriding policies that Parliament has approved. Charles should butt out of politics, if he doesn't then hopefully he'll be removed from office like the original Charles - although he should be retired rather than reaching the same grizzly fate.
    Are there any British institutions that you want to conserve?

    It just all seems a little Pirate Bay to me.
  • Options
    MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    Nigelb said:

    I don't understand this.
    If we genuinely support Ukraine, its every bit as much in our interests as theirs to defeat the invasion sooner rather than later.

    Ukraine wants to win today, the West is looking at 2023
    U.S. and allied leaders at the NATO summit in Madrid acknowledge Ukraine's urgent requests for weapons, but they aren’t biting on the timeline.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/29/ukraine-wants-to-win-today-the-west-is-looking-at-2023-00043087

    Is it very cynical to say that the war in Ukraine is a very convenient thing for any given government to blame all its troubles on?

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,164
    Keystone said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Whether it's London or Kigali, rowing with the royals or his party, Johnson appears unrepentant, unreflective.

    After the Prince Charles debacle an aide to the PM said he had limited time to spend on “humouring men in tights.”

    Johnson's grand tour: https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-nato-g7-love-world-stage/

    Good.

    Boris should go, but our unelected monarchs have no role to play in overriding policies that Parliament has approved. Charles should butt out of politics, if he doesn't then hopefully he'll be removed from office like the original Charles - although he should be retired rather than reaching the same grizzly fate.
    Are there any British institutions that you want to conserve?

    It just all seems a little Pirate Bay to me.
    He is no Conservative, just a pro Brexit Libertarian
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001
    Selebian said:

    algarkirk said:

    What kind of perverted weirdo have you got to be to oppose feeding babies?

    How is it possible to be so distanced from the better angels of our nature?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-61977754

    Completely off-topic, but what's with the butterflies in the first pic? Filter on the photo (they look added to the pic, to me) or some kind of actual jewellery?

    I've absolutely no problem with either, just intrigued at the why if a filter (what could possibly improve a pic of you with your newborn?) and the why and the practicalities if actually real - I've never seen such a thing.

    Edit: on the story, been in the breastfeeding in the supermarket car park situation (not me personally, due to lacking the kit, but present) more than once. To think someone would challenge that is more than bizarre.
    Life with a neonate is tough enough without others sticking their oar in where it's not wanted. The employee who challenged her might realise that when she has kids of her own - as I can't believe any woman who's a mum herself would parrot the actions of the employee.
  • Options
    Keystone said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Whether it's London or Kigali, rowing with the royals or his party, Johnson appears unrepentant, unreflective.

    After the Prince Charles debacle an aide to the PM said he had limited time to spend on “humouring men in tights.”

    Johnson's grand tour: https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-nato-g7-love-world-stage/

    Good.

    Boris should go, but our unelected monarchs have no role to play in overriding policies that Parliament has approved. Charles should butt out of politics, if he doesn't then hopefully he'll be removed from office like the original Charles - although he should be retired rather than reaching the same grizzly fate.
    Are there any British institutions that you want to conserve?

    It just all seems a little Pirate Bay to me.
    Parliament
    Courts
    England Cricket Team

    Not necessarily in that order of importance.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 7,174
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    He’s in stepmom territory.

    He’s also a Brexiteer which is why he loses and Hunt holds on easily.
    Both would lose their seats to the LDs on current polls
    Hunt would not lose his seat on any current polling.
    Surrey SW needs a 7% swing to go LD, the Tory voteshare is already down 10% in some polls.

    The LDs already control the local council with Residents' groups
    So it needs a larger swing than current polling (it requires 7.8% swing actually)

    You said 'both would lose their seats on current polling'

    That is inaccurate. Hunt would not lose his seat based on current polling. Facts are facts.
    Latest Yougov poll has the Tory voteshare on 34% ie down 9% on 2019. A 9% swing from Tory to LD would indeed see Hunt lose his seat

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1541740721413259266?t=v6dSQ34PIMbaFN6GQayFaQ&s=19
    That is not a 9% swing, its a 4.5% swing. Less in fact as that poll has LDs on 9, so its a 3.5% swing
    You are just wrong. No poll shows Hunt losing his seat.
    He could lose his seat, sure, anyone could, but no polling shows that.
    No it is a 9% swing as where the LDs are the Tories main opponents as in SW Surrey anti Tory tactical votes would go LD not Labour
    That is an entirely different argument based on assumptions you cannot apply to national polling figures. Have you got a detailed breakdown of tactical voting intentions you can provide?
    If the swing to the LDs in Hunt's seat is anything like Tiverton and Honiton or Chesham and Amersham or North Shropshire then Hunt is toast as much as Raab, boundary changes or not
    Yes, if it is. The current polling doesnt show that. Doesnt mean it won't happen. But the polling does not show it. And that was the point you made.
    If you just think Hunt will lose his seat, fair enough, thats an opinion, but you can't cite polling in support when the polling does not currently support it.
  • Options
    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    TBH, I said from the start of the invasion that the more cynical may say it's in NATO's interests for the war to last as long as possible so as to degrade Russia's fighting capabilities.

    However, that has to be weighed again at the increasing economic and then political turmoil the war is causing in the West due to inflation and higher bills. Since there's no chance of a peace being forced on Ukraine, they might deem it better to facilitate a swift victory than a long conflict.
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    I don't understand this.
    If we genuinely support Ukraine, its every bit as much in our interests as theirs to defeat the invasion sooner rather than later.

    I see the kopiyok is finally starting to drop among the yellow and blue pom-pom wielding cheerleaders.

    The US and EU don't want a decisive and quick Ukrainian victory, however defined, that either provokes Russia into an escalation or destabilises the entire Russian Federation. Hence the support which is always less than what was needed delivered some time after it would have been most useful.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Keystone said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Whether it's London or Kigali, rowing with the royals or his party, Johnson appears unrepentant, unreflective.

    After the Prince Charles debacle an aide to the PM said he had limited time to spend on “humouring men in tights.”

    Johnson's grand tour: https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-nato-g7-love-world-stage/

    Good.

    Boris should go, but our unelected monarchs have no role to play in overriding policies that Parliament has approved. Charles should butt out of politics, if he doesn't then hopefully he'll be removed from office like the original Charles - although he should be retired rather than reaching the same grizzly fate.
    Are there any British institutions that you want to conserve?

    It just all seems a little Pirate Bay to me.
    He is no Conservative, just a pro Brexit Libertarian
    I've never claimed to be a small-c conservative. I'm a small-l liberal.

    The Conservative Party, when it deserves to win elections, typically appeals to liberals. When it doesn't, is when the party deserves to not be in office.
  • Options
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    I don't understand this.
    If we genuinely support Ukraine, its every bit as much in our interests as theirs to defeat the invasion sooner rather than later.

    I see the kopiyok is finally starting to drop among the yellow and blue pom-pom wielding cheerleaders.

    The US and EU don't want a decisive and quick Ukrainian victory, however defined, that either provokes Russia into an escalation or destabilises the entire Russian Federation. Hence the support which is always less than what was needed delivered some time after it would have been most useful.
    Yes. I'm no military expert, but I really don't see how you achieve a quick and decisive victory against an enemy with a large nuclear arsenal led by a merciless dictator. Sadly (especially for the Ukrainians), the most obvious course of action appears to be to maintain a state of constant grinding warfare which ultimately gives Putin something he thinks he can sell as a victory to his own people but which leaves him and his country in such a weakened condition that he is deterred from ever trying anything like this again.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,164

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    He’s in stepmom territory.

    He’s also a Brexiteer which is why he loses and Hunt holds on easily.
    Both would lose their seats to the LDs on current polls
    Hunt would not lose his seat on any current polling.
    Surrey SW needs a 7% swing to go LD, the Tory voteshare is already down 10% in some polls.

    The LDs already control the local council with Residents' groups
    So it needs a larger swing than current polling (it requires 7.8% swing actually)

    You said 'both would lose their seats on current polling'

    That is inaccurate. Hunt would not lose his seat based on current polling. Facts are facts.
    Latest Yougov poll has the Tory voteshare on 34% ie down 9% on 2019. A 9% swing from Tory to LD would indeed see Hunt lose his seat

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1541740721413259266?t=v6dSQ34PIMbaFN6GQayFaQ&s=19
    That is not a 9% swing, its a 4.5% swing. Less in fact as that poll has LDs on 9, so its a 3.5% swing
    You are just wrong. No poll shows Hunt losing his seat.
    He could lose his seat, sure, anyone could, but no polling shows that.
    No it is a 9% swing as where the LDs are the Tories main opponents as in SW Surrey anti Tory tactical votes would go LD not Labour
    That is an entirely different argument based on assumptions you cannot apply to national polling figures. Have you got a detailed breakdown of tactical voting intentions you can provide?
    If the swing to the LDs in Hunt's seat is anything like Tiverton and Honiton or Chesham and Amersham or North Shropshire then Hunt is toast as much as Raab, boundary changes or not
    Yes, if it is. The current polling doesnt show that. Doesnt mean it won't happen. But the polling does not show it. And that was the point you made.
    If you just think Hunt will lose his seat, fair enough, thats an opinion, but you can't cite polling in support when the polling does not currently support it.
    It effectively does given the scale of tactical voting by Labour voters for the LDs in recent local elections and local by elections where the LDs were the Tories main opponents.

    As I also said in 1997 in Tory LD marginals the Tory to LD swing was about the same as the Tory to Labour swing in Tory Labour marginals despite a slightly lower LD national voteshare than 1992
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,368
    JohnO said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    He’s in stepmom territory.

    He’s also a Brexiteer which is why he loses and Hunt holds on easily.
    Both would lose their seats to the LDs on current polls
    Hunt would not lose his seat on any current polling.
    Surrey SW needs a 7% swing to go LD, the Tory voteshare is already down 10% in some polls.

    The LDs already control the local council with Residents' groups
    So it needs a larger swing than current polling (it requires 7.8% swing actually)

    You said 'both would lose their seats on current polling'

    That is inaccurate. Hunt would not lose his seat based on current polling. Facts are facts.
    Latest Yougov poll has the Tory voteshare on 34% ie down 9% on 2019. A 9% swing from Tory to LD would indeed see Hunt lose his seat

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1541740721413259266?t=v6dSQ34PIMbaFN6GQayFaQ&s=19
    That is not a 9% swing, its a 4.5% swing. Less in fact as that poll has LDs on 9, so its a 3.5% swing
    You are just wrong. No poll shows Hunt losing his seat.
    He could lose his seat, sure, anyone could, but no polling shows that.
    No it is a 9% swing as where the LDs are the Tories main opponents as in SW Surrey anti Tory tactical votes would go LD not Labour
    Probably academic anyway as Surrey gains a seat in the boundary review and Hunt will almost certainly 'migrate' to the very safe one that also includes a part of Hampshire.

    Raab is toast.
    As a factual observation, tactical voting is extremely strong in SW Surrey, exemplified by both the low Labour vote in GE2019 and the two Labour gains at Borough level (including my seat) in the same year (as well as the LibDem gain last week, where Labour chose not to stand at all). The council is in fact controlled by a LD/Lab/Gr/resident coalition (I'm on the Executive).

    As JohnO says, Hunt will have a choice of two seats if the boundary changes go through, but FWIW our analysis is that they will be very similar in terms of winnability.
  • Options
    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Pulpstar said:

    Alistair said:

    In idle Ukraine thoughts I think Ukraine have a big problem in Lysychansk. It's main road out is all but captured with town on the path under severe attack.

    Main road (& only way out of the cauldron) is covered 3 ways by Russian artillery according to my sources.
    Possible, depending on supplies etc.

    However, if you look at the footage in recent days, there has been a very large uptick in the number of ammunition and supply dumps being taken out by Ukrainian artillery. The Ukrainians are also reporting much higher Russian tank and equipment losses that they usually do.

    (My point being is that Russian forces may be seeing a really sharp increase in the degradation of forces)
  • Options
    MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594

    JohnO said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    He’s in stepmom territory.

    He’s also a Brexiteer which is why he loses and Hunt holds on easily.
    Both would lose their seats to the LDs on current polls
    Hunt would not lose his seat on any current polling.
    Surrey SW needs a 7% swing to go LD, the Tory voteshare is already down 10% in some polls.

    The LDs already control the local council with Residents' groups
    So it needs a larger swing than current polling (it requires 7.8% swing actually)

    You said 'both would lose their seats on current polling'

    That is inaccurate. Hunt would not lose his seat based on current polling. Facts are facts.
    Latest Yougov poll has the Tory voteshare on 34% ie down 9% on 2019. A 9% swing from Tory to LD would indeed see Hunt lose his seat

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1541740721413259266?t=v6dSQ34PIMbaFN6GQayFaQ&s=19
    That is not a 9% swing, its a 4.5% swing. Less in fact as that poll has LDs on 9, so its a 3.5% swing
    You are just wrong. No poll shows Hunt losing his seat.
    He could lose his seat, sure, anyone could, but no polling shows that.
    No it is a 9% swing as where the LDs are the Tories main opponents as in SW Surrey anti Tory tactical votes would go LD not Labour
    Probably academic anyway as Surrey gains a seat in the boundary review and Hunt will almost certainly 'migrate' to the very safe one that also includes a part of Hampshire.

    Raab is toast.
    As a factual observation, tactical voting is extremely strong in SW Surrey, exemplified by both the low Labour vote in GE2019 and the two Labour gains at Borough level (including my seat) in the same year (as well as the LibDem gain last week, where Labour chose not to stand at all). The council is in fact controlled by a LD/Lab/Gr/resident coalition (I'm on the Executive).

    As JohnO says, Hunt will have a choice of two seats if the boundary changes go through, but FWIW our analysis is that they will be very similar in terms of winnability.
    I have nowt against the very capable Mr Hunt, but I think if it was him vs Raab in the run-off, Raab would still take the membership.

  • Options
    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215

    JohnO said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    He’s in stepmom territory.

    He’s also a Brexiteer which is why he loses and Hunt holds on easily.
    Both would lose their seats to the LDs on current polls
    Hunt would not lose his seat on any current polling.
    Surrey SW needs a 7% swing to go LD, the Tory voteshare is already down 10% in some polls.

    The LDs already control the local council with Residents' groups
    So it needs a larger swing than current polling (it requires 7.8% swing actually)

    You said 'both would lose their seats on current polling'

    That is inaccurate. Hunt would not lose his seat based on current polling. Facts are facts.
    Latest Yougov poll has the Tory voteshare on 34% ie down 9% on 2019. A 9% swing from Tory to LD would indeed see Hunt lose his seat

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1541740721413259266?t=v6dSQ34PIMbaFN6GQayFaQ&s=19
    That is not a 9% swing, its a 4.5% swing. Less in fact as that poll has LDs on 9, so its a 3.5% swing
    You are just wrong. No poll shows Hunt losing his seat.
    He could lose his seat, sure, anyone could, but no polling shows that.
    No it is a 9% swing as where the LDs are the Tories main opponents as in SW Surrey anti Tory tactical votes would go LD not Labour
    Probably academic anyway as Surrey gains a seat in the boundary review and Hunt will almost certainly 'migrate' to the very safe one that also includes a part of Hampshire.

    Raab is toast.
    As a factual observation, tactical voting is extremely strong in SW Surrey, exemplified by both the low Labour vote in GE2019 and the two Labour gains at Borough level (including my seat) in the same year (as well as the LibDem gain last week, where Labour chose not to stand at all). The council is in fact controlled by a LD/Lab/Gr/resident coalition (I'm on the Executive).

    As JohnO says, Hunt will have a choice of two seats if the boundary changes go through, but FWIW our analysis is that they will be very similar in terms of winnability.
    Indeed (which I hadn't realized not having checked) and both the seats that Hunt might wish to fight have very similar notional results. Doubt he will lose in practice.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 7,174
    edited June 2022
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    He’s in stepmom territory.

    He’s also a Brexiteer which is why he loses and Hunt holds on easily.
    Both would lose their seats to the LDs on current polls
    Hunt would not lose his seat on any current polling.
    Surrey SW needs a 7% swing to go LD, the Tory voteshare is already down 10% in some polls.

    The LDs already control the local council with Residents' groups
    So it needs a larger swing than current polling (it requires 7.8% swing actually)

    You said 'both would lose their seats on current polling'

    That is inaccurate. Hunt would not lose his seat based on current polling. Facts are facts.
    Latest Yougov poll has the Tory voteshare on 34% ie down 9% on 2019. A 9% swing from Tory to LD would indeed see Hunt lose his seat

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1541740721413259266?t=v6dSQ34PIMbaFN6GQayFaQ&s=19
    That is not a 9% swing, its a 4.5% swing. Less in fact as that poll has LDs on 9, so its a 3.5% swing
    You are just wrong. No poll shows Hunt losing his seat.
    He could lose his seat, sure, anyone could, but no polling shows that.
    No it is a 9% swing as where the LDs are the Tories main opponents as in SW Surrey anti Tory tactical votes would go LD not Labour
    That is an entirely different argument based on assumptions you cannot apply to national polling figures. Have you got a detailed breakdown of tactical voting intentions you can provide?
    If the swing to the LDs in Hunt's seat is anything like Tiverton and Honiton or Chesham and Amersham or North Shropshire then Hunt is toast as much as Raab, boundary changes or not
    Yes, if it is. The current polling doesnt show that. Doesnt mean it won't happen. But the polling does not show it. And that was the point you made.
    If you just think Hunt will lose his seat, fair enough, thats an opinion, but you can't cite polling in support when the polling does not currently support it.
    It effectively does given the scale of tactical voting by Labour voters for the LDs in recent local elections and local by elections where the LDs were the Tories main opponents.

    As I also said in 1997 in Tory LD marginals the Tory to LD swing was about the same as the Tory to Labour swing in Tory Labour marginals despite a slightly lower LD national voteshare than 1992
    Thats all assumptions. Its a series of 'probablys', 'if replicated at a GE' 'if everyone acts how they did in 1997' 'if local trends continue in a general' 'if tactical voting happens', 'if it happens as much in Surrey as x y z'
    All subjective.
    Hunt might lose his seat. The polls do not show that unless you amend them with a shit load of 'i reckons'

    Edit - 'i reckons' are not polling.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,164
    MISTY said:

    JohnO said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    He’s in stepmom territory.

    He’s also a Brexiteer which is why he loses and Hunt holds on easily.
    Both would lose their seats to the LDs on current polls
    Hunt would not lose his seat on any current polling.
    Surrey SW needs a 7% swing to go LD, the Tory voteshare is already down 10% in some polls.

    The LDs already control the local council with Residents' groups
    So it needs a larger swing than current polling (it requires 7.8% swing actually)

    You said 'both would lose their seats on current polling'

    That is inaccurate. Hunt would not lose his seat based on current polling. Facts are facts.
    Latest Yougov poll has the Tory voteshare on 34% ie down 9% on 2019. A 9% swing from Tory to LD would indeed see Hunt lose his seat

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1541740721413259266?t=v6dSQ34PIMbaFN6GQayFaQ&s=19
    That is not a 9% swing, its a 4.5% swing. Less in fact as that poll has LDs on 9, so its a 3.5% swing
    You are just wrong. No poll shows Hunt losing his seat.
    He could lose his seat, sure, anyone could, but no polling shows that.
    No it is a 9% swing as where the LDs are the Tories main opponents as in SW Surrey anti Tory tactical votes would go LD not Labour
    Probably academic anyway as Surrey gains a seat in the boundary review and Hunt will almost certainly 'migrate' to the very safe one that also includes a part of Hampshire.

    Raab is toast.
    As a factual observation, tactical voting is extremely strong in SW Surrey, exemplified by both the low Labour vote in GE2019 and the two Labour gains at Borough level (including my seat) in the same year (as well as the LibDem gain last week, where Labour chose not to stand at all). The council is in fact controlled by a LD/Lab/Gr/resident coalition (I'm on the Executive).

    As JohnO says, Hunt will have a choice of two seats if the boundary changes go through, but FWIW our analysis is that they will be very similar in terms of winnability.
    I have nowt against the very capable Mr Hunt, but I think if it was him vs Raab in the run-off, Raab would still take the membership.

    Pre next general election, post general election both may well have lost their seats along with Boris and it could be Sunak v Patel, who knows
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,774

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    I don't understand this.
    If we genuinely support Ukraine, its every bit as much in our interests as theirs to defeat the invasion sooner rather than later.

    I see the kopiyok is finally starting to drop among the yellow and blue pom-pom wielding cheerleaders.

    The US and EU don't want a decisive and quick Ukrainian victory, however defined, that either provokes Russia into an escalation or destabilises the entire Russian Federation. Hence the support which is always less than what was needed delivered some time after it would have been most useful.
    Yes. I'm no military expert, but I really don't see how you achieve a quick and decisive victory against an enemy with a large nuclear arsenal led by a merciless dictator. Sadly (especially for the Ukrainians), the most obvious course of action appears to be to maintain a state of constant grinding warfare which ultimately gives Putin something he thinks he can sell as a victory to his own people but which leaves him and his country in such a weakened condition that he is deterred from ever trying anything like this again.
    Sadly so. Same as their previous adventure in Afghanistan, the US experience in Vietnam or France's tribulations in Algeria.

    There is a place for quick humiliations that bring a country up short and put it off future adventures - think US in Somalia, or the Arab countries in several of the Arab-Israeli wars, but it's too late for that now.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,797
    edited June 2022
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    I don't understand this.
    If we genuinely support Ukraine, its every bit as much in our interests as theirs to defeat the invasion sooner rather than later.

    I see the kopiyok is finally starting to drop among the yellow and blue pom-pom wielding cheerleaders.

    The US and EU don't want a decisive and quick Ukrainian victory, however defined, that either provokes Russia into an escalation or destabilises the entire Russian Federation. Hence the support which is always less than what was needed delivered some time after it would have been most useful.
    Nope, I've been arguing this for quite some time.

    And I think it utterly misguided to think that you can finesse the outcome of resisting the invasion. I accept the bright line against direct NATO intervention, but otherwise it makes no sense at all to graduate the tempo of defeating Putin's gamble.
    All that does is cost more and kill more.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,177
    ** LATEST **
    The Privileges Committee has elected Labour MP Harriet Harman as its chairman, as I forecast yesterday.
    Interesting it has agreed to take evidence anonymously which raises the prospect of former or current 10 Downing St giving evidence against the Prime Minister.

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1542146953869418498
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,333
    edited June 2022
    MISTY said:

    Nigelb said:

    I don't understand this.
    If we genuinely support Ukraine, its every bit as much in our interests as theirs to defeat the invasion sooner rather than later.

    Ukraine wants to win today, the West is looking at 2023
    U.S. and allied leaders at the NATO summit in Madrid acknowledge Ukraine's urgent requests for weapons, but they aren’t biting on the timeline.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/29/ukraine-wants-to-win-today-the-west-is-looking-at-2023-00043087

    Is it very cynical to say that the war in Ukraine is a very convenient thing for any given government to blame all its troubles on?
    There's perhaps a less cynical explanation, that it's driven by prudence. Ie the view is that the actions needed to give Ukraine the chance of a quick win (from here) carry a too high risk of tipping things into a wider conflict with consequences impossible to model with any confidence.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,094
    There’s nothing more boring than reading @HYUFD discuss Scottish Independence.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,029
    MrEd said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Alistair said:

    In idle Ukraine thoughts I think Ukraine have a big problem in Lysychansk. It's main road out is all but captured with town on the path under severe attack.

    Main road (& only way out of the cauldron) is covered 3 ways by Russian artillery according to my sources.
    Possible, depending on supplies etc.

    However, if you look at the footage in recent days, there has been a very large uptick in the number of ammunition and supply dumps being taken out by Ukrainian artillery. The Ukrainians are also reporting much higher Russian tank and equipment losses that they usually do.

    (My point being is that Russian forces may be seeing a really sharp increase in the degradation of forces)
    This is the Ukrainian strategy now; deny Russian artillery by hitting the very considerable logistics tail with 155mm SPG or similar long range fires. However the problem they have is one of scale. For the purposes of the SMO the Russian supplies of ammunition are essentially infinite. The Soviets fucking loved artillery and stockpiling ammo. I remember seeing imagery of Sov ammo dumps that were 1km wide and 12km long - literally millions of shells. The Russians cling to the same doctrine, artillery wins wars, with the same fervour.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Scott_xP said:

    ** LATEST **
    The Privileges Committee has elected Labour MP Harriet Harman as its chairman, as I forecast yesterday.
    Interesting it has agreed to take evidence anonymously which raises the prospect of former or current 10 Downing St giving evidence against the Prime Minister.

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1542146953869418498

    I hope those potential witnesses form an orderly queue.
  • Options

    There’s nothing more boring than reading @HYUFD discuss Scottish Independence.

    Grammar school arguments run it close.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,967

    There’s nothing more boring than reading @HYUFD discuss Scottish Independence.

    There's nothing more boring than reading anyone discuss Scottish independence.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,429
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    He’s in stepmom territory.

    He’s also a Brexiteer which is why he loses and Hunt holds on easily.
    Both would lose their seats to the LDs on current polls
    Hunt would not lose his seat on any current polling.
    Surrey SW needs a 7% swing to go LD, the Tory voteshare is already down 10% in some polls.

    The LDs already control the local council with Residents' groups
    So it needs a larger swing than current polling (it requires 7.8% swing actually)

    You said 'both would lose their seats on current polling'

    That is inaccurate. Hunt would not lose his seat based on current polling. Facts are facts.
    Latest Yougov poll has the Tory voteshare on 34% ie down 9% on 2019. A 9% swing from Tory to LD would indeed see Hunt lose his seat

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1541740721413259266?t=v6dSQ34PIMbaFN6GQayFaQ&s=19
    It comes to something when an active Tory is using the polls to try and demonstrate that one of the few sensible people in his party capable of restoring it to any sort of sane political positioning is doomed to lose his seat - because of the appalling behaviour and political misjudgements of the idiot he himself has supported instead.
  • Options
    NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    TimS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    I don't understand this.
    If we genuinely support Ukraine, its every bit as much in our interests as theirs to defeat the invasion sooner rather than later.

    I see the kopiyok is finally starting to drop among the yellow and blue pom-pom wielding cheerleaders.

    The US and EU don't want a decisive and quick Ukrainian victory, however defined, that either provokes Russia into an escalation or destabilises the entire Russian Federation. Hence the support which is always less than what was needed delivered some time after it would have been most useful.
    Yes. I'm no military expert, but I really don't see how you achieve a quick and decisive victory against an enemy with a large nuclear arsenal led by a merciless dictator. Sadly (especially for the Ukrainians), the most obvious course of action appears to be to maintain a state of constant grinding warfare which ultimately gives Putin something he thinks he can sell as a victory to his own people but which leaves him and his country in such a weakened condition that he is deterred from ever trying anything like this again.
    Sadly so. Same as their previous adventure in Afghanistan, the US experience in Vietnam or France's tribulations in Algeria.

    There is a place for quick humiliations that bring a country up short and put it off future adventures - think US in Somalia, or the Arab countries in several of the Arab-Israeli wars, but it's too late for that now.
    I think there is a good chance that Russia will be driven back once weakened sufficiently and that profound effects will result internally as a result. Putin has not dared start a general mobilisation, the demographics are also against him. There are indicators that moral is low and he's chopping and changing the officers (those not killed). Partisan activity is ramping up, Ukrainian artillery is improving and their moral is high. The recent shopping mall atrocity is a sign of weakness ("we will kill civilians until you admit defeat").
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    So, suppose the SNP do plan on using the 2024 GE as a plebiscite for indy, if Boris and the Supreme Court say no...
    We get the following result:
    Labour - 283
    Con - 275
    SNP - 48
    Lib Dems - 20
    What does Starmer do? What does Sturgeon do?

    Starmer forms a minority government with the LDs on those numbers and also ignores the SNP beyond a Brown commission on devomax
    Report tonight Boris may allow indyref2 and to be honest it would be the right thing to do
    No there isn't, anywhere. If he did then he would lose a VONC and be removed straight away
    All the government said was "Our position remains unchanged that both ours and the Scottish Government's priority should be working together with a relentless focus on the issues that we know matter to people up and down the country.

    "That remains our priority, but a decision has been taken by the First Minister, so we will carefully study the details of the proposal, and the Supreme Court will now consider whether to accept the Scottish Government's Lord Advocate referral".
    I have just published that and you repeat it for some strange reason

    Why are you so scared of a vote that is winnable
    It is 50/50 at the moment and even if it was won the SNP would demand another referendum the UK government having been so weak as to allow an indyref2 before a generation had elapsed.

    No, this Tory government must go full hardcore Madrid Catalonia 2017 if needed, no official indyref2 allowed under any circumstance whatsoever and Unionists to boycott any wildcat referendum
    I am not convinced at your second paragraph. Telling the Scottish people (well any people for that matter) that they can't have something is most likely to make them want to double down against the denyers. People who don't want to vote indy could well end up doing so out of sheer bloody-mindedness.

    On the other hand Johnson needs to be careful as the vote, whilst he remains PM, will be on a knife- edge. He could become the PM who both did Brexit, and did for the Union.

    They can't if they have no vote. Madrid has successfully refused an official independence referendum for 5 years in Catalonia, indeed in 2017 it not only refused to recognise the Catalan independence referendum, it imposed temporary direct rule and the arrest was ordered of nationalist leaders for sedition, forcing many into exile.

    Nothing must be off the table in order to take on the SNP
    But it doesn't really work like that.

    P*ss people off, particularly Scottish people, and they will punish you. Scottish Labour is your salutory lesson here.

    As for your tanks on the Royal Mile, forget it, that will never happen.
    No they won't. 71% of Scots don't want an indyref2 in 2023.

    https://www.scotlandinunion.co.uk/post/new-poll-only-29-support-indyref2-in-2023

    The UK government can and must stand up to Sturgeon, Westminster and Westminster alone has the final say on the Union and that is from the very legislation that set up Holyrood.

    Scottish Labour was weak, the SNP must be dealt with with a rod of iron
    Definition of rule with a rod of iron
    : to rule a country, area, group, etc., in a very strict and often cruel way The dictator ruled (the country) with a rod of iron.

    (Miriam Webster)

    You FUDHY are a very odd little man. Do you have a neat little moustache, intimacy issues and a desire for Lebensraum?
    Using @HYUFD methods of calculation, only 12.7% of the Scottish population voted Conservative at the last GE, so the Tories have absolutely no mandate in Scotland.
    For avoidance of doubt, everyone who did not vote, or was ineligible to vote, are counted in the anti Conservative column. That’s how it works, isn’t it?
    Unionist arithmetic does not follow the normal laws of the field.

    Third = first and first = Untermenschen
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    TimS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    I don't understand this.
    If we genuinely support Ukraine, its every bit as much in our interests as theirs to defeat the invasion sooner rather than later.

    I see the kopiyok is finally starting to drop among the yellow and blue pom-pom wielding cheerleaders.

    The US and EU don't want a decisive and quick Ukrainian victory, however defined, that either provokes Russia into an escalation or destabilises the entire Russian Federation. Hence the support which is always less than what was needed delivered some time after it would have been most useful.
    Yes. I'm no military expert, but I really don't see how you achieve a quick and decisive victory against an enemy with a large nuclear arsenal led by a merciless dictator. Sadly (especially for the Ukrainians), the most obvious course of action appears to be to maintain a state of constant grinding warfare which ultimately gives Putin something he thinks he can sell as a victory to his own people but which leaves him and his country in such a weakened condition that he is deterred from ever trying anything like this again.
    Sadly so. Same as their previous adventure in Afghanistan, the US experience in Vietnam or France's tribulations in Algeria.

    There is a place for quick humiliations that bring a country up short and put it off future adventures - think US in Somalia, or the Arab countries in several of the Arab-Israeli wars, but it's too late for that now.
    I think there is a good chance that Russia will be driven back once weakened sufficiently and that profound effects will result internally as a result. Putin has not dared start a general mobilisation, the demographics are also against him. There are indicators that moral is low and he's chopping and changing the officers (those not killed). Partisan activity is ramping up, Ukrainian artillery is improving and their moral is high. The recent shopping mall atrocity is a sign of weakness ("we will kill civilians until you admit defeat").
    That's great wishing but in the east the Nasa Fire map shows the Ukrainians being steady pushed back and a totemetically important city practically surrounded with relief routes cut off.

    Sure Ukraine are making hood progress towards Kherson but will they actually be able to retake it?

    Likewise although they have pushed back the Russians around Kharkiv they cannot get them out of artillery range of the city.
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,324
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    He’s in stepmom territory.

    He’s also a Brexiteer which is why he loses and Hunt holds on easily.
    Both would lose their seats to the LDs on current polls
    Hunt would not lose his seat on any current polling.
    Surrey SW needs a 7% swing to go LD, the Tory voteshare is already down 10% in some polls.

    The LDs already control the local council with Residents' groups
    So it needs a larger swing than current polling (it requires 7.8% swing actually)

    You said 'both would lose their seats on current polling'

    That is inaccurate. Hunt would not lose his seat based on current polling. Facts are facts.
    Latest Yougov poll has the Tory voteshare on 34% ie down 9% on 2019. A 9% swing from Tory to LD would indeed see Hunt lose his seat

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1541740721413259266?t=v6dSQ34PIMbaFN6GQayFaQ&s=19
    It comes to something when an active Tory is using the polls to try and demonstrate that one of the few sensible people in his party capable of restoring it to any sort of sane political positioning is doomed to lose his seat - because of the appalling behaviour and political misjudgements of the idiot he himself has supported instead.
    Presumably HYUFD has other fish to fry: the fabled Red Wall will crumble if the Tories allow slippery old Remainer Hunt anywhere near the leadership.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,177
    This Supreme Court is running wild. This outcome is a kick in the face to peoples whose land we already took and whose sovereignty we have already disregarded- to the point of genocide.

    It’s wrong, and I fear there is more to come from these ignorant, cruel clowns.
    https://twitter.com/maggieblackhawk/status/1542147095750213633
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,177
    Rayner responds to Raab:

    “My advice to the deputy prime minister is to cut out the snobbery & brush up on his opera. The Marriage of Figaro is the story of a working-class woman who gets the better of a privileged but dim-witted villain.”

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1542150975003234310
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144
    HYUFD said:

    MISTY said:

    JohnO said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    He’s in stepmom territory.

    He’s also a Brexiteer which is why he loses and Hunt holds on easily.
    Both would lose their seats to the LDs on current polls
    Hunt would not lose his seat on any current polling.
    Surrey SW needs a 7% swing to go LD, the Tory voteshare is already down 10% in some polls.

    The LDs already control the local council with Residents' groups
    So it needs a larger swing than current polling (it requires 7.8% swing actually)

    You said 'both would lose their seats on current polling'

    That is inaccurate. Hunt would not lose his seat based on current polling. Facts are facts.
    Latest Yougov poll has the Tory voteshare on 34% ie down 9% on 2019. A 9% swing from Tory to LD would indeed see Hunt lose his seat

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1541740721413259266?t=v6dSQ34PIMbaFN6GQayFaQ&s=19
    That is not a 9% swing, its a 4.5% swing. Less in fact as that poll has LDs on 9, so its a 3.5% swing
    You are just wrong. No poll shows Hunt losing his seat.
    He could lose his seat, sure, anyone could, but no polling shows that.
    No it is a 9% swing as where the LDs are the Tories main opponents as in SW Surrey anti Tory tactical votes would go LD not Labour
    Probably academic anyway as Surrey gains a seat in the boundary review and Hunt will almost certainly 'migrate' to the very safe one that also includes a part of Hampshire.

    Raab is toast.
    As a factual observation, tactical voting is extremely strong in SW Surrey, exemplified by both the low Labour vote in GE2019 and the two Labour gains at Borough level (including my seat) in the same year (as well as the LibDem gain last week, where Labour chose not to stand at all). The council is in fact controlled by a LD/Lab/Gr/resident coalition (I'm on the Executive).

    As JohnO says, Hunt will have a choice of two seats if the boundary changes go through, but FWIW our analysis is that they will be very similar in terms of winnability.
    I have nowt against the very capable Mr Hunt, but I think if it was him vs Raab in the run-off, Raab would still take the membership.

    Pre next general election, post general election both may well have lost their seats along with Boris and it could be Sunak v Patel, who knows
    I do. It won't.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    He’s in stepmom territory.

    He’s also a Brexiteer which is why he loses and Hunt holds on easily.
    Both would lose their seats to the LDs on current polls
    Hunt would not lose his seat on any current polling.
    Surrey SW needs a 7% swing to go LD, the Tory voteshare is already down 10% in some polls.

    The LDs already control the local council with Residents' groups
    So it needs a larger swing than current polling (it requires 7.8% swing actually)

    You said 'both would lose their seats on current polling'

    That is inaccurate. Hunt would not lose his seat based on current polling. Facts are facts.
    Latest Yougov poll has the Tory voteshare on 34% ie down 9% on 2019. A 9% swing from Tory to LD would indeed see Hunt lose his seat

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1541740721413259266?t=v6dSQ34PIMbaFN6GQayFaQ&s=19
    That is not a 9% swing, its a 4.5% swing. Less in fact as that poll has LDs on 9, so its a 3.5% swing
    You are just wrong. No poll shows Hunt losing his seat.
    He could lose his seat, sure, anyone could, but no polling shows that.
    In the SLab wipeout, an obscure MP in an ultra-marginal was the only one to hold out against the SNP tsunami: Ian Murray in Edinburgh South.

    I predict that we’ll see a similar pattern in England at the next GE: ultra-safe donkeys like Wee Dougie Alexander and Jim Murphy losing their seats, while quiet, competent, friendly, persuasive characters like Murray will hold their seats, even if they have tiny majorities.

    The bonfire of the shits.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,014

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    So, suppose the SNP do plan on using the 2024 GE as a plebiscite for indy, if Boris and the Supreme Court say no...
    We get the following result:
    Labour - 283
    Con - 275
    SNP - 48
    Lib Dems - 20
    What does Starmer do? What does Sturgeon do?

    Starmer forms a minority government with the LDs on those numbers and also ignores the SNP beyond a Brown commission on devomax
    Report tonight Boris may allow indyref2 and to be honest it would be the right thing to do
    No there isn't, anywhere. If he did then he would lose a VONC and be removed straight away
    All the government said was "Our position remains unchanged that both ours and the Scottish Government's priority should be working together with a relentless focus on the issues that we know matter to people up and down the country.

    "That remains our priority, but a decision has been taken by the First Minister, so we will carefully study the details of the proposal, and the Supreme Court will now consider whether to accept the Scottish Government's Lord Advocate referral".
    I have just published that and you repeat it for some strange reason

    Why are you so scared of a vote that is winnable
    It is 50/50 at the moment and even if it was won the SNP would demand another referendum the UK government having been so weak as to allow an indyref2 before a generation had elapsed.

    No, this Tory government must go full hardcore Madrid Catalonia 2017 if needed, no official indyref2 allowed under any circumstance whatsoever and Unionists to boycott any wildcat referendum
    I am not convinced at your second paragraph. Telling the Scottish people (well any people for that matter) that they can't have something is most likely to make them want to double down against the denyers. People who don't want to vote indy could well end up doing so out of sheer bloody-mindedness.

    On the other hand Johnson needs to be careful as the vote, whilst he remains PM, will be on a knife- edge. He could become the PM who both did Brexit, and did for the Union.

    They can't if they have no vote. Madrid has successfully refused an official independence referendum for 5 years in Catalonia, indeed in 2017 it not only refused to recognise the Catalan independence referendum, it imposed temporary direct rule and the arrest was ordered of nationalist leaders for sedition, forcing many into exile.

    Nothing must be off the table in order to take on the SNP
    But it doesn't really work like that.

    P*ss people off, particularly Scottish people, and they will punish you. Scottish Labour is your salutory lesson here.

    As for your tanks on the Royal Mile, forget it, that will never happen.
    No they won't. 71% of Scots don't want an indyref2 in 2023.

    https://www.scotlandinunion.co.uk/post/new-poll-only-29-support-indyref2-in-2023

    The UK government can and must stand up to Sturgeon, Westminster and Westminster alone has the final say on the Union and that is from the very legislation that set up Holyrood.

    Scottish Labour was weak, the SNP must be dealt with with a rod of iron
    Definition of rule with a rod of iron
    : to rule a country, area, group, etc., in a very strict and often cruel way The dictator ruled (the country) with a rod of iron.

    (Miriam Webster)

    You FUDHY are a very odd little man. Do you have a neat little moustache, intimacy issues and a desire for Lebensraum?
    No, if we really wanted to do that we would scrap Holyrood and impose direct rule from Westminster having evicted Scottish MPs.

    Ruling out indyref2 is a mild response
    You accept that NI should have a border poll if a majority wants it. Why not Scotland?
    As the GFA does not apply to Scotland, the Scotland Act 1998 reserves the future of the Union to Westminster
    Louisville is not a part of the United Kingdom.

    So what.

    If you accept that NI has the right under certain conditions to vote for "independence" then you must support Scotland's right also.
    No I don't as Scotland does not have the history of terrorism NI does plus it has already had one once a generation independence referendum
    So, you respect the rights of terrorists and denounce the rights of democrats. One wonders what kind of country England would become if people like FUDHY were allowed to drive their philosophy to its logical conclusion.
    Glad you picked up on that as I was about to post the same regarding terrorism. And no, the HYUFD world bears no relation to reality in England or anywhere else in the civilised world. Thankfully. A country where terrorists are rewarded and peaceful campaigners for independence are threatened with tanks is not one I am interested in inhabiting.
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,238
    TOPPING said:

    Just landed at CDG. Customs queue for non-EU literally hundreds of yards (!) long. EU one had six people. Settling down for at least an hour's wait when they opened all the booths to everyone. Took 30 mins in the end. Just less than the time it took to get through security at LHR. Who'd fly.

    Then again walked out the front at CDG, past the huge taxi queue and straight into an Uber. Arrived in zero minutes.

    Holiday in August? Paris if you must but the Ile de Re is where the Parisians go.

    Just out of interest, does anyone know what the actual EU rules are on the EU-only gates? It's nice to see the airport staff ushering non-EU people through the EU gates when they are empty to keep things moving - and I've seen this in both Spain and Portugal recently - but are they actually allowed to under EU law?
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,177
    BREAKING: Good Law Project to sue Met Police over failure to properly investigate Boris Johnson over Partygate.

    They want to know why Scotland Yard didn't issue questionnaires and further fines for three No 10 gatherings when others received fines.

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1542152719238053888
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    He’s in stepmom territory.

    He’s also a Brexiteer which is why he loses and Hunt holds on easily.
    Both would lose their seats to the LDs on current polls
    Hunt would not lose his seat on any current polling.
    Surrey SW needs a 7% swing to go LD, the Tory voteshare is already down 10% in some polls.

    The LDs already control the local council with Residents' groups
    So it needs a larger swing than current polling (it requires 7.8% swing actually)

    You said 'both would lose their seats on current polling'

    That is inaccurate. Hunt would not lose his seat based on current polling. Facts are facts.
    Latest Yougov poll has the Tory voteshare on 34% ie down 9% on 2019. A 9% swing from Tory to LD would indeed see Hunt lose his seat

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1541740721413259266?t=v6dSQ34PIMbaFN6GQayFaQ&s=19
    It comes to something when an active Tory is using the polls to try and demonstrate that one of the few sensible people in his party capable of restoring it to any sort of sane political positioning is doomed to lose his seat - because of the appalling behaviour and political misjudgements of the idiot he himself has supported instead.
    Presumably HYUFD has other fish to fry: the fabled Red Wall will crumble if the Tories allow slippery old Remainer Hunt anywhere near the leadership.
    Red Wall is yesterday’s news. It is the Blue Wall and the Midlands which have become interesting.
  • Options
    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,819
    Pfizer have announced they are developing a pan-coronavirus vaccine:

    https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/biontech-pfizer-starting-testing-universal-coronavirus-vaccine-h2-2022-06-29/

    This would not only cover all covid variants that exist or could possibly exist, but also SARS, MERS, and any other future such coronavirus that comes from any other animal reservoir. (such as the many other similar viruses that exist in bats and pangolins)

    I can't see if it's pan-sarbecovirus only (the subset of subsets of coronaviruses to which SARS-CoV-2 belongs), or pan-betacoronavirus (the family of coronaviruses to which pan-sarbecovirus belongs - this would provide immunity to the common cold as well) or fully pan-coronavirus.

    Any of the above would be extremely useful.
  • Options
    NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    Alistair said:

    TimS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    I don't understand this.
    If we genuinely support Ukraine, its every bit as much in our interests as theirs to defeat the invasion sooner rather than later.

    I see the kopiyok is finally starting to drop among the yellow and blue pom-pom wielding cheerleaders.

    The US and EU don't want a decisive and quick Ukrainian victory, however defined, that either provokes Russia into an escalation or destabilises the entire Russian Federation. Hence the support which is always less than what was needed delivered some time after it would have been most useful.
    Yes. I'm no military expert, but I really don't see how you achieve a quick and decisive victory against an enemy with a large nuclear arsenal led by a merciless dictator. Sadly (especially for the Ukrainians), the most obvious course of action appears to be to maintain a state of constant grinding warfare which ultimately gives Putin something he thinks he can sell as a victory to his own people but which leaves him and his country in such a weakened condition that he is deterred from ever trying anything like this again.
    Sadly so. Same as their previous adventure in Afghanistan, the US experience in Vietnam or France's tribulations in Algeria.

    There is a place for quick humiliations that bring a country up short and put it off future adventures - think US in Somalia, or the Arab countries in several of the Arab-Israeli wars, but it's too late for that now.
    I think there is a good chance that Russia will be driven back once weakened sufficiently and that profound effects will result internally as a result. Putin has not dared start a general mobilisation, the demographics are also against him. There are indicators that moral is low and he's chopping and changing the officers (those not killed). Partisan activity is ramping up, Ukrainian artillery is improving and their moral is high. The recent shopping mall atrocity is a sign of weakness ("we will kill civilians until you admit defeat").
    That's great wishing but in the east the Nasa Fire map shows the Ukrainians being steady pushed back and a totemetically important city practically surrounded with relief routes cut off.

    Sure Ukraine are making hood progress towards Kherson but will they actually be able to retake it?

    Likewise although they have pushed back the Russians around Kharkiv they cannot get them out of artillery range of the city.
    The Russian gains over the last month are absolutely piffling in strategic terms and counter-balanced by small gains by Ukraine near Kherson. Assuming that Ukraine have kept their own losses lower than the Russians then the Russians are being bled dry. It is similar to "rope a dope". The superior and highly effective Western artillery is now starting to have an effect hitting ammo dumps and Russian artillery and armour. There is a stasis in air power with a weak Russian superiority held in check by sufficient losses. If you are in the Russian army (or helicopter crews) your chances of being killed or maimed are high and you know that you are not winning.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    So, suppose the SNP do plan on using the 2024 GE as a plebiscite for indy, if Boris and the Supreme Court say no...
    We get the following result:
    Labour - 283
    Con - 275
    SNP - 48
    Lib Dems - 20
    What does Starmer do? What does Sturgeon do?

    Starmer forms a minority government with the LDs on those numbers and also ignores the SNP beyond a Brown commission on devomax
    Report tonight Boris may allow indyref2 and to be honest it would be the right thing to do
    No there isn't, anywhere. If he did then he would lose a VONC and be removed straight away
    All the government said was "Our position remains unchanged that both ours and the Scottish Government's priority should be working together with a relentless focus on the issues that we know matter to people up and down the country.

    "That remains our priority, but a decision has been taken by the First Minister, so we will carefully study the details of the proposal, and the Supreme Court will now consider whether to accept the Scottish Government's Lord Advocate referral".
    I have just published that and you repeat it for some strange reason

    Why are you so scared of a vote that is winnable
    It is 50/50 at the moment and even if it was won the SNP would demand another referendum the UK government having been so weak as to allow an indyref2 before a generation had elapsed.

    No, this Tory government must go full hardcore Madrid Catalonia 2017 if needed, no official indyref2 allowed under any circumstance whatsoever and Unionists to boycott any wildcat referendum
    I am not convinced at your second paragraph. Telling the Scottish people (well any people for that matter) that they can't have something is most likely to make them want to double down against the denyers. People who don't want to vote indy could well end up doing so out of sheer bloody-mindedness.

    On the other hand Johnson needs to be careful as the vote, whilst he remains PM, will be on a knife- edge. He could become the PM who both did Brexit, and did for the Union.

    They can't if they have no vote. Madrid has successfully refused an official independence referendum for 5 years in Catalonia, indeed in 2017 it not only refused to recognise the Catalan independence referendum, it imposed temporary direct rule and the arrest was ordered of nationalist leaders for sedition, forcing many into exile.

    Nothing must be off the table in order to take on the SNP
    But it doesn't really work like that.

    P*ss people off, particularly Scottish people, and they will punish you. Scottish Labour is your salutory lesson here.

    As for your tanks on the Royal Mile, forget it, that will never happen.
    No they won't. 71% of Scots don't want an indyref2 in 2023.

    https://www.scotlandinunion.co.uk/post/new-poll-only-29-support-indyref2-in-2023

    The UK government can and must stand up to Sturgeon, Westminster and Westminster alone has the final say on the Union and that is from the very legislation that set up Holyrood.

    Scottish Labour was weak, the SNP must be dealt with with a rod of iron
    Definition of rule with a rod of iron
    : to rule a country, area, group, etc., in a very strict and often cruel way The dictator ruled (the country) with a rod of iron.

    (Miriam Webster)

    You FUDHY are a very odd little man. Do you have a neat little moustache, intimacy issues and a desire for Lebensraum?
    No, if we really wanted to do that we would scrap Holyrood and impose direct rule from Westminster having evicted Scottish MPs.

    Ruling out indyref2 is a mild response
    You accept that NI should have a border poll if a majority wants it. Why not Scotland?
    As the GFA does not apply to Scotland, the Scotland Act 1998 reserves the future of the Union to Westminster
    Louisville is not a part of the United Kingdom.

    So what.

    If you accept that NI has the right under certain conditions to vote for "independence" then you must support Scotland's right also.
    No I don't as Scotland does not have the history of terrorism NI does plus it has already had one once a generation independence referendum
    So, you respect the rights of terrorists and denounce the rights of democrats. One wonders what kind of country England would become if people like FUDHY were allowed to drive their philosophy to its logical conclusion.
    Glad you picked up on that as I was about to post the same regarding terrorism. And no, the HYUFD world bears no relation to reality in England or anywhere else in the civilised world. Thankfully. A country where terrorists are rewarded and peaceful campaigners for independence are threatened with tanks is not one I am interested in inhabiting.
    Glad we’re on the same page today. Although, to be honest, I’d hope that HY was in a PB minority of one today. Or does anybody else on here advocate rewarding terrorists and being cruel to democrats?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001
    edited June 2022
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Raab looking very dangerous at PMQ but I think loses his seat next GE?

    He’s in stepmom territory.

    He’s also a Brexiteer which is why he loses and Hunt holds on easily.
    Both would lose their seats to the LDs on current polls
    Hunt would not lose his seat on any current polling.
    Surrey SW needs a 7% swing to go LD, the Tory voteshare is already down 10% in some polls.

    The LDs already control the local council with Residents' groups
    So it needs a larger swing than current polling (it requires 7.8% swing actually)

    You said 'both would lose their seats on current polling'

    That is inaccurate. Hunt would not lose his seat based on current polling. Facts are facts.
    Latest Yougov poll has the Tory voteshare on 34% ie down 9% on 2019. A 9% swing from Tory to LD would indeed see Hunt lose his seat

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1541740721413259266?t=v6dSQ34PIMbaFN6GQayFaQ&s=19
    That is not a 9% swing, its a 4.5% swing. Less in fact as that poll has LDs on 9, so its a 3.5% swing
    You are just wrong. No poll shows Hunt losing his seat.
    He could lose his seat, sure, anyone could, but no polling shows that.
    No it is a 9% swing as where the LDs are the Tories main opponents as in SW Surrey anti Tory tactical votes would go LD not Labour
    That is an entirely different argument based on assumptions you cannot apply to national polling figures. Have you got a detailed breakdown of tactical voting intentions you can provide?
    If the swing to the LDs in Hunt's seat is anything like Tiverton and Honiton or Chesham and Amersham or North Shropshire then Hunt is toast as much as Raab, boundary changes or not
    Yes, if it is. The current polling doesnt show that. Doesnt mean it won't happen. But the polling does not show it. And that was the point you made.
    If you just think Hunt will lose his seat, fair enough, thats an opinion, but you can't cite polling in support when the polling does not currently support it.
    It effectively does given the scale of tactical voting by Labour voters for the LDs in recent local elections and local by elections where the LDs were the Tories main opponents.

    As I also said in 1997 in Tory LD marginals the Tory to LD swing was about the same as the Tory to Labour swing in Tory Labour marginals despite a slightly lower LD national voteshare than 1992
    1993 Christchurch by-election 35.4 Conservative Liberal Democrats
    2021 North Shropshire by-election 34.2 Conservative Liberal Democrats
    2022 Tiverton and Honiton by-election 29.9 Conservative Liberal Democrats

    1994 Dudley West by-election 29.2 Conservative Labour
    1993 Newbury by-election 28.4 Conservative Liberal Democrats
    2021 Chesham and Amersham by-election 25.1 Conservative Liberal Democrats
    1994 Dagenham by-election 23.1 Conservative Labour
    1996 South East Staffordshire by-election 22.1 Conservative Labour
    1994 Barking by-election 22.0 Conservative Labour

    Bluntly speaking, the Lib Dems are achieving the 1992 - 1997 swings at by-elections, whereas Labour just aren't.

    Where does the next GE end up if Labour have similar progress against the Conservatives that they achieved in 2015 - No I'm not making that up, Ed Miliband did move forward against the Tories. &
    Ed Davey has a 1997 (much larger) type swing where the Lib Dems are facing the Tories.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,517
    algarkirk said:

    What kind of perverted weirdo have you got to be to oppose feeding babies?

    How is it possible to be so distanced from the better angels of our nature?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-61977754

    I saw that this morning, through my binos. Disturbing
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,369

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    So, suppose the SNP do plan on using the 2024 GE as a plebiscite for indy, if Boris and the Supreme Court say no...
    We get the following result:
    Labour - 283
    Con - 275
    SNP - 48
    Lib Dems - 20
    What does Starmer do? What does Sturgeon do?

    Starmer forms a minority government with the LDs on those numbers and also ignores the SNP beyond a Brown commission on devomax
    Report tonight Boris may allow indyref2 and to be honest it would be the right thing to do
    No there isn't, anywhere. If he did then he would lose a VONC and be removed straight away
    All the government said was "Our position remains unchanged that both ours and the Scottish Government's priority should be working together with a relentless focus on the issues that we know matter to people up and down the country.

    "That remains our priority, but a decision has been taken by the First Minister, so we will carefully study the details of the proposal, and the Supreme Court will now consider whether to accept the Scottish Government's Lord Advocate referral".
    I have just published that and you repeat it for some strange reason

    Why are you so scared of a vote that is winnable
    It is 50/50 at the moment and even if it was won the SNP would demand another referendum the UK government having been so weak as to allow an indyref2 before a generation had elapsed.

    No, this Tory government must go full hardcore Madrid Catalonia 2017 if needed, no official indyref2 allowed under any circumstance whatsoever and Unionists to boycott any wildcat referendum
    I am not convinced at your second paragraph. Telling the Scottish people (well any people for that matter) that they can't have something is most likely to make them want to double down against the denyers. People who don't want to vote indy could well end up doing so out of sheer bloody-mindedness.

    On the other hand Johnson needs to be careful as the vote, whilst he remains PM, will be on a knife- edge. He could become the PM who both did Brexit, and did for the Union.

    They can't if they have no vote. Madrid has successfully refused an official independence referendum for 5 years in Catalonia, indeed in 2017 it not only refused to recognise the Catalan independence referendum, it imposed temporary direct rule and the arrest was ordered of nationalist leaders for sedition, forcing many into exile.

    Nothing must be off the table in order to take on the SNP
    But it doesn't really work like that.

    P*ss people off, particularly Scottish people, and they will punish you. Scottish Labour is your salutory lesson here.

    As for your tanks on the Royal Mile, forget it, that will never happen.
    No they won't. 71% of Scots don't want an indyref2 in 2023.

    https://www.scotlandinunion.co.uk/post/new-poll-only-29-support-indyref2-in-2023

    The UK government can and must stand up to Sturgeon, Westminster and Westminster alone has the final say on the Union and that is from the very legislation that set up Holyrood.

    Scottish Labour was weak, the SNP must be dealt with with a rod of iron
    Definition of rule with a rod of iron
    : to rule a country, area, group, etc., in a very strict and often cruel way The dictator ruled (the country) with a rod of iron.

    (Miriam Webster)

    You FUDHY are a very odd little man. Do you have a neat little moustache, intimacy issues and a desire for Lebensraum?
    No, if we really wanted to do that we would scrap Holyrood and impose direct rule from Westminster having evicted Scottish MPs.

    Ruling out indyref2 is a mild response
    You accept that NI should have a border poll if a majority wants it. Why not Scotland?
    As the GFA does not apply to Scotland, the Scotland Act 1998 reserves the future of the Union to Westminster
    Louisville is not a part of the United Kingdom.

    So what.

    If you accept that NI has the right under certain conditions to vote for "independence" then you must support Scotland's right also.
    No I don't as Scotland does not have the history of terrorism NI does plus it has already had one once a generation independence referendum
    So, you respect the rights of terrorists and denounce the rights of democrats. One wonders what kind of country England would become if people like FUDHY were allowed to drive their philosophy to its logical conclusion.
    Glad you picked up on that as I was about to post the same regarding terrorism. And no, the HYUFD world bears no relation to reality in England or anywhere else in the civilised world. Thankfully. A country where terrorists are rewarded and peaceful campaigners for independence are threatened with tanks is not one I am interested in inhabiting.
    Nor me
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,517

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    So, suppose the SNP do plan on using the 2024 GE as a plebiscite for indy, if Boris and the Supreme Court say no...
    We get the following result:
    Labour - 283
    Con - 275
    SNP - 48
    Lib Dems - 20
    What does Starmer do? What does Sturgeon do?

    Starmer forms a minority government with the LDs on those numbers and also ignores the SNP beyond a Brown commission on devomax
    Report tonight Boris may allow indyref2 and to be honest it would be the right thing to do
    No there isn't, anywhere. If he did then he would lose a VONC and be removed straight away
    All the government said was "Our position remains unchanged that both ours and the Scottish Government's priority should be working together with a relentless focus on the issues that we know matter to people up and down the country.

    "That remains our priority, but a decision has been taken by the First Minister, so we will carefully study the details of the proposal, and the Supreme Court will now consider whether to accept the Scottish Government's Lord Advocate referral".
    I have just published that and you repeat it for some strange reason

    Why are you so scared of a vote that is winnable
    It is 50/50 at the moment and even if it was won the SNP would demand another referendum the UK government having been so weak as to allow an indyref2 before a generation had elapsed.

    No, this Tory government must go full hardcore Madrid Catalonia 2017 if needed, no official indyref2 allowed under any circumstance whatsoever and Unionists to boycott any wildcat referendum
    I am not convinced at your second paragraph. Telling the Scottish people (well any people for that matter) that they can't have something is most likely to make them want to double down against the denyers. People who don't want to vote indy could well end up doing so out of sheer bloody-mindedness.

    On the other hand Johnson needs to be careful as the vote, whilst he remains PM, will be on a knife- edge. He could become the PM who both did Brexit, and did for the Union.

    They can't if they have no vote. Madrid has successfully refused an official independence referendum for 5 years in Catalonia, indeed in 2017 it not only refused to recognise the Catalan independence referendum, it imposed temporary direct rule and the arrest was ordered of nationalist leaders for sedition, forcing many into exile.

    Nothing must be off the table in order to take on the SNP
    But it doesn't really work like that.

    P*ss people off, particularly Scottish people, and they will punish you. Scottish Labour is your salutory lesson here.

    As for your tanks on the Royal Mile, forget it, that will never happen.
    No they won't. 71% of Scots don't want an indyref2 in 2023.

    https://www.scotlandinunion.co.uk/post/new-poll-only-29-support-indyref2-in-2023

    The UK government can and must stand up to Sturgeon, Westminster and Westminster alone has the final say on the Union and that is from the very legislation that set up Holyrood.

    Scottish Labour was weak, the SNP must be dealt with with a rod of iron
    Definition of rule with a rod of iron
    : to rule a country, area, group, etc., in a very strict and often cruel way The dictator ruled (the country) with a rod of iron.

    (Miriam Webster)

    You FUDHY are a very odd little man. Do you have a neat little moustache, intimacy issues and a desire for Lebensraum?
    No, if we really wanted to do that we would scrap Holyrood and impose direct rule from Westminster having evicted Scottish MPs.

    Ruling out indyref2 is a mild response
    You accept that NI should have a border poll if a majority wants it. Why not Scotland?
    As the GFA does not apply to Scotland, the Scotland Act 1998 reserves the future of the Union to Westminster
    Louisville is not a part of the United Kingdom.

    So what.

    If you accept that NI has the right under certain conditions to vote for "independence" then you must support Scotland's right also.
    No I don't as Scotland does not have the history of terrorism NI does plus it has already had one once a generation independence referendum
    So, you respect the rights of terrorists and denounce the rights of democrats. One wonders what kind of country England would become if people like FUDHY were allowed to drive their philosophy to its logical conclusion.
    Glad you picked up on that as I was about to post the same regarding terrorism. And no, the HYUFD world bears no relation to reality in England or anywhere else in the civilised world. Thankfully. A country where terrorists are rewarded and peaceful campaigners for independence are threatened with tanks is not one I am interested in inhabiting.
    There's nothing more boring than reading idiot PB-ers having virtue-wanking, pearl-clutching conniptions about @HYUFD
  • Options
    MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    Scott_xP said:

    This Supreme Court is running wild. This outcome is a kick in the face to peoples whose land we already took and whose sovereignty we have already disregarded- to the point of genocide.

    It’s wrong, and I fear there is more to come from these ignorant, cruel clowns.
    https://twitter.com/maggieblackhawk/status/1542147095750213633

    Another determination that could be left to individual states is, apparently, same sex marriage.

    The way this is going, the way some states seem to be a million miles away from others in social outlook, you have to wonder whether in the end some sort of fracturing/secession might actually occur.

  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,144
    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING: Good Law Project to sue Met Police over failure to properly investigate Boris Johnson over Partygate.

    They want to know why Scotland Yard didn't issue questionnaires and further fines for three No 10 gatherings when others received fines.

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1542152719238053888

    You forgot the all important fundraising link. They are tracking the amount of money that their "Partygate Legal Action" brings in and every little helps.

    https://goodlawproject.fundraise.tech/?utm_campaign=partygate-legal-action-290622
  • Options
    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,809
    If anyone has got the latest Private Eye might want to give page 10 a miss, since it concerns BJ, Carrie, and a BJ...

    https://twitter.com/ZombyWoof4/status/1542137571244900359
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,177
    NEW: Opinium poll shows how @RMTunion has turned the tide of public opinion in favour of the rail strike

    Support - 45% (+7)
    Oppose - 37% (-6) https://twitter.com/ronanburtenshaw/status/1542133908392787977/photo/1
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,517
    Do you need your heart-cockles warmed? Want to see something nice in a troubled world?

    "how to tell your deaf dog that it's time to go for a walk
    (themilestwins IG)"



    https://twitter.com/DogtopiaBG/status/1542053006996283392?s=20&t=KxUl1PFiPOppRYBLHRG9ug
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,164
    edited June 2022

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    So, suppose the SNP do plan on using the 2024 GE as a plebiscite for indy, if Boris and the Supreme Court say no...
    We get the following result:
    Labour - 283
    Con - 275
    SNP - 48
    Lib Dems - 20
    What does Starmer do? What does Sturgeon do?

    Starmer forms a minority government with the LDs on those numbers and also ignores the SNP beyond a Brown commission on devomax
    Report tonight Boris may allow indyref2 and to be honest it would be the right thing to do
    No there isn't, anywhere. If he did then he would lose a VONC and be removed straight away
    All the government said was "Our position remains unchanged that both ours and the Scottish Government's priority should be working together with a relentless focus on the issues that we know matter to people up and down the country.

    "That remains our priority, but a decision has been taken by the First Minister, so we will carefully study the details of the proposal, and the Supreme Court will now consider whether to accept the Scottish Government's Lord Advocate referral".
    I have just published that and you repeat it for some strange reason

    Why are you so scared of a vote that is winnable
    It is 50/50 at the moment and even if it was won the SNP would demand another referendum the UK government having been so weak as to allow an indyref2 before a generation had elapsed.

    No, this Tory government must go full hardcore Madrid Catalonia 2017 if needed, no official indyref2 allowed under any circumstance whatsoever and Unionists to boycott any wildcat referendum
    I am not convinced at your second paragraph. Telling the Scottish people (well any people for that matter) that they can't have something is most likely to make them want to double down against the denyers. People who don't want to vote indy could well end up doing so out of sheer bloody-mindedness.

    On the other hand Johnson needs to be careful as the vote, whilst he remains PM, will be on a knife- edge. He could become the PM who both did Brexit, and did for the Union.

    They can't if they have no vote. Madrid has successfully refused an official independence referendum for 5 years in Catalonia, indeed in 2017 it not only refused to recognise the Catalan independence referendum, it imposed temporary direct rule and the arrest was ordered of nationalist leaders for sedition, forcing many into exile.

    Nothing must be off the table in order to take on the SNP
    But it doesn't really work like that.

    P*ss people off, particularly Scottish people, and they will punish you. Scottish Labour is your salutory lesson here.

    As for your tanks on the Royal Mile, forget it, that will never happen.
    No they won't. 71% of Scots don't want an indyref2 in 2023.

    https://www.scotlandinunion.co.uk/post/new-poll-only-29-support-indyref2-in-2023

    The UK government can and must stand up to Sturgeon, Westminster and Westminster alone has the final say on the Union and that is from the very legislation that set up Holyrood.

    Scottish Labour was weak, the SNP must be dealt with with a rod of iron
    Definition of rule with a rod of iron
    : to rule a country, area, group, etc., in a very strict and often cruel way The dictator ruled (the country) with a rod of iron.

    (Miriam Webster)

    You FUDHY are a very odd little man. Do you have a neat little moustache, intimacy issues and a desire for Lebensraum?
    No, if we really wanted to do that we would scrap Holyrood and impose direct rule from Westminster having evicted Scottish MPs.

    Ruling out indyref2 is a mild response
    You accept that NI should have a border poll if a majority wants it. Why not Scotland?
    As the GFA does not apply to Scotland, the Scotland Act 1998 reserves the future of the Union to Westminster
    Louisville is not a part of the United Kingdom.

    So what.

    If you accept that NI has the right under certain conditions to vote for "independence" then you must support Scotland's right also.
    No I don't as Scotland does not have the history of terrorism NI does plus it has already had one once a generation independence referendum
    So, you respect the rights of terrorists and denounce the rights of democrats. One wonders what kind of country England would become if people like FUDHY were allowed to drive their philosophy to its logical conclusion.
    Glad you picked up on that as I was about to post the same regarding terrorism. And no, the HYUFD world bears no relation to reality in England or anywhere else in the civilised world. Thankfully. A country where terrorists are rewarded and peaceful campaigners for independence are threatened with tanks is not one I am interested in inhabiting.
    Oh really? Yet in Northern Ireland the GFA only came about after a 30 year terrorist bombing campaign by the IRA in GB and loyalist paramilitaries and the IRA in NI

    In Scotland however there is no GFA and what Westminster says goes, as it has since the 1707 Act of Union and on the Union under the Scotland Act 1998 that created Holyrood
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    So, suppose the SNP do plan on using the 2024 GE as a plebiscite for indy, if Boris and the Supreme Court say no...
    We get the following result:
    Labour - 283
    Con - 275
    SNP - 48
    Lib Dems - 20
    What does Starmer do? What does Sturgeon do?

    Starmer forms a minority government with the LDs on those numbers and also ignores the SNP beyond a Brown commission on devomax
    Report tonight Boris may allow indyref2 and to be honest it would be the right thing to do
    No there isn't, anywhere. If he did then he would lose a VONC and be removed straight away
    All the government said was "Our position remains unchanged that both ours and the Scottish Government's priority should be working together with a relentless focus on the issues that we know matter to people up and down the country.

    "That remains our priority, but a decision has been taken by the First Minister, so we will carefully study the details of the proposal, and the Supreme Court will now consider whether to accept the Scottish Government's Lord Advocate referral".
    I have just published that and you repeat it for some strange reason

    Why are you so scared of a vote that is winnable
    It is 50/50 at the moment and even if it was won the SNP would demand another referendum the UK government having been so weak as to allow an indyref2 before a generation had elapsed.

    No, this Tory government must go full hardcore Madrid Catalonia 2017 if needed, no official indyref2 allowed under any circumstance whatsoever and Unionists to boycott any wildcat referendum
    I am not convinced at your second paragraph. Telling the Scottish people (well any people for that matter) that they can't have something is most likely to make them want to double down against the denyers. People who don't want to vote indy could well end up doing so out of sheer bloody-mindedness.

    On the other hand Johnson needs to be careful as the vote, whilst he remains PM, will be on a knife- edge. He could become the PM who both did Brexit, and did for the Union.

    They can't if they have no vote. Madrid has successfully refused an official independence referendum for 5 years in Catalonia, indeed in 2017 it not only refused to recognise the Catalan independence referendum, it imposed temporary direct rule and the arrest was ordered of nationalist leaders for sedition, forcing many into exile.

    Nothing must be off the table in order to take on the SNP
    But it doesn't really work like that.

    P*ss people off, particularly Scottish people, and they will punish you. Scottish Labour is your salutory lesson here.

    As for your tanks on the Royal Mile, forget it, that will never happen.
    No they won't. 71% of Scots don't want an indyref2 in 2023.

    https://www.scotlandinunion.co.uk/post/new-poll-only-29-support-indyref2-in-2023

    The UK government can and must stand up to Sturgeon, Westminster and Westminster alone has the final say on the Union and that is from the very legislation that set up Holyrood.

    Scottish Labour was weak, the SNP must be dealt with with a rod of iron
    Definition of rule with a rod of iron
    : to rule a country, area, group, etc., in a very strict and often cruel way The dictator ruled (the country) with a rod of iron.

    (Miriam Webster)

    You FUDHY are a very odd little man. Do you have a neat little moustache, intimacy issues and a desire for Lebensraum?
    No, if we really wanted to do that we would scrap Holyrood and impose direct rule from Westminster having evicted Scottish MPs.

    Ruling out indyref2 is a mild response
    You accept that NI should have a border poll if a majority wants it. Why not Scotland?
    As the GFA does not apply to Scotland, the Scotland Act 1998 reserves the future of the Union to Westminster
    Louisville is not a part of the United Kingdom.

    So what.

    If you accept that NI has the right under certain conditions to vote for "independence" then you must support Scotland's right also.
    No I don't as Scotland does not have the history of terrorism NI does plus it has already had one once a generation independence referendum
    So, you respect the rights of terrorists and denounce the rights of democrats. One wonders what kind of country England would become if people like FUDHY were allowed to drive their philosophy to its logical conclusion.
    Glad you picked up on that as I was about to post the same regarding terrorism. And no, the HYUFD world bears no relation to reality in England or anywhere else in the civilised world. Thankfully. A country where terrorists are rewarded and peaceful campaigners for independence are threatened with tanks is not one I am interested in inhabiting.
    There's nothing more boring than reading idiot PB-ers having virtue-wanking, pearl-clutching conniptions about @HYUFD
    If we omit eighteen years of SeanT drug frenzies, brothel tales and flint dildo output.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,014
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    So, suppose the SNP do plan on using the 2024 GE as a plebiscite for indy, if Boris and the Supreme Court say no...
    We get the following result:
    Labour - 283
    Con - 275
    SNP - 48
    Lib Dems - 20
    What does Starmer do? What does Sturgeon do?

    Starmer forms a minority government with the LDs on those numbers and also ignores the SNP beyond a Brown commission on devomax
    Report tonight Boris may allow indyref2 and to be honest it would be the right thing to do
    No there isn't, anywhere. If he did then he would lose a VONC and be removed straight away
    All the government said was "Our position remains unchanged that both ours and the Scottish Government's priority should be working together with a relentless focus on the issues that we know matter to people up and down the country.

    "That remains our priority, but a decision has been taken by the First Minister, so we will carefully study the details of the proposal, and the Supreme Court will now consider whether to accept the Scottish Government's Lord Advocate referral".
    I have just published that and you repeat it for some strange reason

    Why are you so scared of a vote that is winnable
    It is 50/50 at the moment and even if it was won the SNP would demand another referendum the UK government having been so weak as to allow an indyref2 before a generation had elapsed.

    No, this Tory government must go full hardcore Madrid Catalonia 2017 if needed, no official indyref2 allowed under any circumstance whatsoever and Unionists to boycott any wildcat referendum
    I am not convinced at your second paragraph. Telling the Scottish people (well any people for that matter) that they can't have something is most likely to make them want to double down against the denyers. People who don't want to vote indy could well end up doing so out of sheer bloody-mindedness.

    On the other hand Johnson needs to be careful as the vote, whilst he remains PM, will be on a knife- edge. He could become the PM who both did Brexit, and did for the Union.

    They can't if they have no vote. Madrid has successfully refused an official independence referendum for 5 years in Catalonia, indeed in 2017 it not only refused to recognise the Catalan independence referendum, it imposed temporary direct rule and the arrest was ordered of nationalist leaders for sedition, forcing many into exile.

    Nothing must be off the table in order to take on the SNP
    But it doesn't really work like that.

    P*ss people off, particularly Scottish people, and they will punish you. Scottish Labour is your salutory lesson here.

    As for your tanks on the Royal Mile, forget it, that will never happen.
    No they won't. 71% of Scots don't want an indyref2 in 2023.

    https://www.scotlandinunion.co.uk/post/new-poll-only-29-support-indyref2-in-2023

    The UK government can and must stand up to Sturgeon, Westminster and Westminster alone has the final say on the Union and that is from the very legislation that set up Holyrood.

    Scottish Labour was weak, the SNP must be dealt with with a rod of iron
    Definition of rule with a rod of iron
    : to rule a country, area, group, etc., in a very strict and often cruel way The dictator ruled (the country) with a rod of iron.

    (Miriam Webster)

    You FUDHY are a very odd little man. Do you have a neat little moustache, intimacy issues and a desire for Lebensraum?
    No, if we really wanted to do that we would scrap Holyrood and impose direct rule from Westminster having evicted Scottish MPs.

    Ruling out indyref2 is a mild response
    You accept that NI should have a border poll if a majority wants it. Why not Scotland?
    As the GFA does not apply to Scotland, the Scotland Act 1998 reserves the future of the Union to Westminster
    Louisville is not a part of the United Kingdom.

    So what.

    If you accept that NI has the right under certain conditions to vote for "independence" then you must support Scotland's right also.
    No I don't as Scotland does not have the history of terrorism NI does plus it has already had one once a generation independence referendum
    So, you respect the rights of terrorists and denounce the rights of democrats. One wonders what kind of country England would become if people like FUDHY were allowed to drive their philosophy to its logical conclusion.
    Glad you picked up on that as I was about to post the same regarding terrorism. And no, the HYUFD world bears no relation to reality in England or anywhere else in the civilised world. Thankfully. A country where terrorists are rewarded and peaceful campaigners for independence are threatened with tanks is not one I am interested in inhabiting.
    There's nothing more boring than reading idiot PB-ers having virtue-wanking, pearl-clutching conniptions about @HYUFD
    Fuck off you old drunken hypocrite. No one cares what you think.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,992
    Nigel Farage comes out in favour of proportional representation.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/06/29/new-electoral-system-would-save-britain-socialist-decline/

    "A new electoral system would save Britain from socialist decline
    Proportional representation could well re-energise British politics and bring to power a common sense coalition
    Nigel Farage"
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,517
    edited June 2022

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    So, suppose the SNP do plan on using the 2024 GE as a plebiscite for indy, if Boris and the Supreme Court say no...
    We get the following result:
    Labour - 283
    Con - 275
    SNP - 48
    Lib Dems - 20
    What does Starmer do? What does Sturgeon do?

    Starmer forms a minority government with the LDs on those numbers and also ignores the SNP beyond a Brown commission on devomax
    Report tonight Boris may allow indyref2 and to be honest it would be the right thing to do
    No there isn't, anywhere. If he did then he would lose a VONC and be removed straight away
    All the government said was "Our position remains unchanged that both ours and the Scottish Government's priority should be working together with a relentless focus on the issues that we know matter to people up and down the country.

    "That remains our priority, but a decision has been taken by the First Minister, so we will carefully study the details of the proposal, and the Supreme Court will now consider whether to accept the Scottish Government's Lord Advocate referral".
    I have just published that and you repeat it for some strange reason

    Why are you so scared of a vote that is winnable
    It is 50/50 at the moment and even if it was won the SNP would demand another referendum the UK government having been so weak as to allow an indyref2 before a generation had elapsed.

    No, this Tory government must go full hardcore Madrid Catalonia 2017 if needed, no official indyref2 allowed under any circumstance whatsoever and Unionists to boycott any wildcat referendum
    I am not convinced at your second paragraph. Telling the Scottish people (well any people for that matter) that they can't have something is most likely to make them want to double down against the denyers. People who don't want to vote indy could well end up doing so out of sheer bloody-mindedness.

    On the other hand Johnson needs to be careful as the vote, whilst he remains PM, will be on a knife- edge. He could become the PM who both did Brexit, and did for the Union.

    They can't if they have no vote. Madrid has successfully refused an official independence referendum for 5 years in Catalonia, indeed in 2017 it not only refused to recognise the Catalan independence referendum, it imposed temporary direct rule and the arrest was ordered of nationalist leaders for sedition, forcing many into exile.

    Nothing must be off the table in order to take on the SNP
    But it doesn't really work like that.

    P*ss people off, particularly Scottish people, and they will punish you. Scottish Labour is your salutory lesson here.

    As for your tanks on the Royal Mile, forget it, that will never happen.
    No they won't. 71% of Scots don't want an indyref2 in 2023.

    https://www.scotlandinunion.co.uk/post/new-poll-only-29-support-indyref2-in-2023

    The UK government can and must stand up to Sturgeon, Westminster and Westminster alone has the final say on the Union and that is from the very legislation that set up Holyrood.

    Scottish Labour was weak, the SNP must be dealt with with a rod of iron
    Definition of rule with a rod of iron
    : to rule a country, area, group, etc., in a very strict and often cruel way The dictator ruled (the country) with a rod of iron.

    (Miriam Webster)

    You FUDHY are a very odd little man. Do you have a neat little moustache, intimacy issues and a desire for Lebensraum?
    No, if we really wanted to do that we would scrap Holyrood and impose direct rule from Westminster having evicted Scottish MPs.

    Ruling out indyref2 is a mild response
    You accept that NI should have a border poll if a majority wants it. Why not Scotland?
    As the GFA does not apply to Scotland, the Scotland Act 1998 reserves the future of the Union to Westminster
    Louisville is not a part of the United Kingdom.

    So what.

    If you accept that NI has the right under certain conditions to vote for "independence" then you must support Scotland's right also.
    No I don't as Scotland does not have the history of terrorism NI does plus it has already had one once a generation independence referendum
    So, you respect the rights of terrorists and denounce the rights of democrats. One wonders what kind of country England would become if people like FUDHY were allowed to drive their philosophy to its logical conclusion.
    Glad you picked up on that as I was about to post the same regarding terrorism. And no, the HYUFD world bears no relation to reality in England or anywhere else in the civilised world. Thankfully. A country where terrorists are rewarded and peaceful campaigners for independence are threatened with tanks is not one I am interested in inhabiting.
    There's nothing more boring than reading idiot PB-ers having virtue-wanking, pearl-clutching conniptions about @HYUFD
    Fuck off you old drunken hypocrite. No one cares what you think.
    That's better
  • Options
    DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 411
    Scott_xP said:

    This Supreme Court is running wild. This outcome is a kick in the face to peoples whose land we already took and whose sovereignty we have already disregarded- to the point of genocide.

    It’s wrong, and I fear there is more to come from these ignorant, cruel clowns.
    https://twitter.com/maggieblackhawk/status/1542147095750213633

    Wasn't that the case that if it had won at the Supreme Court would have invalidated most criminal convictions in half of Oklahoma since it became a state? Probably the wrong decision in law but one of those that if upheld would have led to chaos.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,177
    Brexit: No10 refuses to tell the public if the Government has assessed if Brexit has harmed the UK’s economy https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-economy-eu-harm-economic-assessment-downing-street-boris-johnson-b1009174.html
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    Anastasiia Lapatina
    @lapatina_
    Wow. Ukraine just freed 144 soldiers from Russian captivity, including 95 Azovstal defenders, and 43 Azov fighters. The best possible news of today. They are coming home
    https://twitter.com/lapatina_/status/1542156663578398721
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    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    No 10 staff will be able to give evidence confidentially to inquiry into whether PM lied over Partygate
    Commons privileges committee will start taking oral evidence in autumn into whether Boris Johnson misled MPs
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    MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    Andy_JS said:

    Nigel Farage comes out in favour of proportional representation.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/06/29/new-electoral-system-would-save-britain-socialist-decline/

    "A new electoral system would save Britain from socialist decline
    Proportional representation could well re-energise British politics and bring to power a common sense coalition
    Nigel Farage"

    The ultimate irony being that Farage's political vehicles prospered mightily via the UK's European elections.

    Now they are gone....

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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,014
    Andy_JS said:

    Nigel Farage comes out in favour of proportional representation.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/06/29/new-electoral-system-would-save-britain-socialist-decline/

    "A new electoral system would save Britain from socialist decline
    Proportional representation could well re-energise British politics and bring to power a common sense coalition
    Nigel Farage"

    Not sure 'comes out in favour of' is quite accurate. It thought he had been along time advocate? He certainly railed about it enough when UKIP were getting 12% of the vote and one seat.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,583
    CatMan said:

    If anyone has got the latest Private Eye might want to give page 10 a miss, since it concerns BJ, Carrie, and a BJ...

    https://twitter.com/ZombyWoof4/status/1542137571244900359

    Ugh, ugh, ugh.

    I'd exile you to ConHome for that but I'm too busy looking for mind bleach.
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    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Socialists are not allowed to enjoy opera.

    Are Tories allowed to enjoy morris dancing?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-raab-angela-rayner-glyndebourne-b2111964.html?amp
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941
    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING: Good Law Project to sue Met Police over failure to properly investigate Boris Johnson over Partygate.

    They want to know why Scotland Yard didn't issue questionnaires and further fines for three No 10 gatherings when others received fines.

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1542152719238053888

    Fantastic, another step towards Jolyon being formally labelled a vexatious litigant by a High Court Judge. Who the hell is still giving him money?
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    Socialists are not allowed to enjoy opera.

    Are Tories allowed to enjoy morris dancing?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-raab-angela-rayner-glyndebourne-b2111964.html?amp

    I definitely think that they should leave Association Football to the oiks and riffraff in Labour.
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    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,164
    Scott_xP said:

    Brexit: No10 refuses to tell the public if the Government has assessed if Brexit has harmed the UK’s economy https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-economy-eu-harm-economic-assessment-downing-street-boris-johnson-b1009174.html

    Come on, this is none of our business. And anyway, we all know that Brexit has been a tremendous success whatever the nerds at the Treasury might say.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,583
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING: Good Law Project to sue Met Police over failure to properly investigate Boris Johnson over Partygate.

    They want to know why Scotland Yard didn't issue questionnaires and further fines for three No 10 gatherings when others received fines.

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1542152719238053888

    Fantastic, another step towards Jolyon being formally labelled a vexatious litigant by a High Court Judge. Who the hell is still giving him money?
    You keep on banging about him becoming a vexatious litigant but it isn't going to happen, he keeps on getting cases won at SCOTUK, including some important ones, like the prorogation of Parliament one.
This discussion has been closed.