Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

The Tories can no longer rely on first past the post – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,162
edited July 2022 in General
imageThe Tories can no longer rely on first past the post – politicalbetting.com

The big message from the results overnight is that voters are wanting to get Johnson out and will go with the party that is most most likely to achieve that objective.

Read the full story here

«13456

Comments

  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    First like yesterday
  • The thing is, this Tory Government proves that a large majority is pointless.

    This should be a proud reforming Government doing good things for people but they've honestly achieved sod all. It's kind of amazing really.
  • I still maintain BoJo leads them into a GE late this year
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Itll never be so severe a reaction at a GE, when fewer will sit on hands anyway. But I'd still be worried the voters seem to getting pretty savvy on selecting an appropriate target for getting tactical.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    FPT
    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Raab steps up to the plate.

    Raab's message - the electorate giving us a shoeing is a 'distraction'.
    Raab is as thick as mince and his Bill of Rights is one of the worst and most malicious pieces of proposed legislation around. I would write about it but why bother - the usual suspects will come on to display their ignorance and everyone else will ignore it.

    It is certainly a distraction from good governance. But what would Raab know about that.
    I've seen 2 comments elsewhere that the only thing its going to achieve is more cases going against this Government.

    Almost as if the Government needs to be make something else into a monster they can claim is "unfairly" attacking them.
  • Another fact to rebut the Johnson lies about sitting governments and by-elections. When Tony Blair was PM Labour fought 28 by-elections against the Tories. Played 28 Won 28 Lost 0. Proper leader. Proper campaigns. Proper government. Just go you useless lying incompetent crook
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited June 2022
    There was negligible tactical voting in Wakefield as evidenced by less than half the Tory drop going Labour. The LDs were already a nothing party there.
    There was plenty in Tiverton.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    I would argue that the Blues absolutely will rely on FPTP... when Labour rack up 20k majorities in Bootle and the Lab/LD vote spllts in S England and the Midlands you know Labour are going to really struggle.....
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    OGH is right on this. The next election will see massive anit Tory tactical voting which will benefit Labour in the Red Wall and the Lib Dems in the Blue Wall. A pincer movement that will lock the Tories out of power, maybe for a generation. The Lib Dems should demand electoral reform as a condition of supporting a minority Labour government, and then people can vote for their first choice again, confident it won't result in their last choice getting elected.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,803
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    I predicted the Tories would lose both seats but Boris would stay. Sadly - for the Conservative Party - this appears to be accurate on all counts

    Boris is clearly steering his Party to a catastrophic defeat. They need to oust him now

    Recall the Golden Bough. The sacrifice of the king propitiates the angry gods, and thus the tribe is saved. It is time to propitiate; because the gods - AKA the voters - are VERY angry

    And if, in the process, the Tory core has to put up with some social liberalism that it finds distasteful, then tough. If it should come to pass, a heavy Conservative defeat at the next election that allows this to happen will be as much a monument to their greed as it will be to Johnson's self-absorption and venality.

    Wokeness is not “social liberalism”, it is much more sinister than that

    I entirely agree with you on the predatory pensioners. We need a government for the young

    Unfortunately I don’t think Starmer’s Labour is it. They are as clueless - policy wise - as the Tories.

    But then, looking at the headlines in today’s FT, with emergencies across the world from humble Sri Lanka to mighty America, with the EU warning of “terrible splits” in the bloc as Russia shuts off the gas, I wonder if any politician anywhere has even a vague idea how to handle what’s coming our way

    Brace

    I really hate the way particular groups are described in offensive ways - "feckless young", "predatory pensioners" etc. This sort of tribal culture war language will do nothing to repair society.

    The current Tory party is exhausted and out of good ideas. Boris is a disgrace to his office and his government is degrading our democracy. His MPs should grow a spine, throw him out and start the process of rebuilding a Tory party that does not shame Britain. I doubt they will. But it is what they ought to do.if they don't the Tories will be out of power for a long time which will lead to the same problems with Labour. Parties that stay in power for too long become a menace.

    We need policies for the hard-working of all ages, the young and those who are poor and just about managing. We need proper housebuilding, to do something about the grotesque interest rates on student loans and the absurd obstacles we have put in the way of those who try to export. We need proper investment in infrastructure in all parts of the country and we need to repair relations with our nearest neighbours.

    We do not need more constitutional jiggery-pokery.

    What we need above all is a government which explains clearly that times are going to be hard for the next few years as we deal with the consequences of Brexit, Covid and world instabilities so that all of us will have to tighten our belts but that this will need to be done fairly. No-one will be immune but we will try our damndest to make sure that those with the greatest wealth pay their fair share. For a start, NI on everyone who works, no matter what their age , rises in pensions should be no higher than what is offered to other public sector workers and council tax bands above the current highest levels to capture the increase in house values in recent years. I'd hugely increase the amount non-doms have to pay for their status as well and limit the amount rich people can give to charities and claim back from their tax as well.

    Others will have other policies but they need to be presented as part of a narrative which explains that the next few years will be tough and that no-one will be exempt. Labour and the Lib Dems are still proposing to do something for the WASPI women, for instance - who have no legal case and are about as undeserving a group as you could find. This idea that you can throw sweeties at your favoured groups needs to be quashed.

    We have to think hard about how we are going to earn our living and start doing it. For all of Labour's success so far I am not at all sure that there is much of a narrative from them on this. And if they don't develop one - with the policies to match and the steel to resist all the many claims made on them - they will end up being buffeted by events when in power.
    The problem with this is that the pensioners are leeching from younger generations through rent and imposing huge pension rises on working age people, either via the state pension or RPI increases on final salary schemes that are paid for by current employees of companies. A tax on higher earning pensioners and clawbacks of the state pension would allow for taxes to be cut for working age people but Labour are simply too weak to pursue this policy.

    Younger generations pointing out, fairly, that pensioners are predatory and thieving from younger generations to fund their retirements. Making it prohibitively expensive to own additional properties is the best way to solve this as it frees up millions of houses for purchase by young people who are currently priced out of the market by landlords and second home owners.

    You want everyone to "get along" but while older generations are monopolising wealth and prosperity I see no reason for young people to be part of this grand bargain of "getting along" for the sake of it. It's up to older people to realise their selfishness is the cause of friction between the generations, they are leeching from their children and grandchildren yet want all of us to play nice because their parents made sacrifices while they made none.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    I’m sad that my colleague and friend @OliverDowden took the decision to resign this morning.

    We all take responsibility for the results and I’m determined to continue working to tackle the cost of living, including delivering NICs changes saving 30 million people on average £330

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1540266662364053505
  • MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    I predicted the Tories would lose both seats but Boris would stay. Sadly - for the Conservative Party - this appears to be accurate on all counts

    Boris is clearly steering his Party to a catastrophic defeat. They need to oust him now

    Recall the Golden Bough. The sacrifice of the king propitiates the angry gods, and thus the tribe is saved. It is time to propitiate; because the gods - AKA the voters - are VERY angry

    And if, in the process, the Tory core has to put up with some social liberalism that it finds distasteful, then tough. If it should come to pass, a heavy Conservative defeat at the next election that allows this to happen will be as much a monument to their greed as it will be to Johnson's self-absorption and venality.

    Wokeness is not “social liberalism”, it is much more sinister than that

    I entirely agree with you on the predatory pensioners. We need a government for the young

    Unfortunately I don’t think Starmer’s Labour is it. They are as clueless - policy wise - as the Tories.

    But then, looking at the headlines in today’s FT, with emergencies across the world from humble Sri Lanka to mighty America, with the EU warning of “terrible splits” in the bloc as Russia shuts off the gas, I wonder if any politician anywhere has even a vague idea how to handle what’s coming our way

    Brace

    I really hate the way particular groups are described in offensive ways - "feckless young", "predatory pensioners" etc. This sort of tribal culture war language will do nothing to repair society.

    The current Tory party is exhausted and out of good ideas. Boris is a disgrace to his office and his government is degrading our democracy. His MPs should grow a spine, throw him out and start the process of rebuilding a Tory party that does not shame Britain. I doubt they will. But it is what they ought to do.if they don't the Tories will be out of power for a long time which will lead to the same problems with Labour. Parties that stay in power for too long become a menace.

    We need policies for the hard-working of all ages, the young and those who are poor and just about managing. We need proper housebuilding, to do something about the grotesque interest rates on student loans and the absurd obstacles we have put in the way of those who try to export. We need proper investment in infrastructure in all parts of the country and we need to repair relations with our nearest neighbours.

    We do not need more constitutional jiggery-pokery.

    What we need above all is a government which explains clearly that times are going to be hard for the next few years as we deal with the consequences of Brexit, Covid and world instabilities so that all of us will have to tighten our belts but that this will need to be done fairly. No-one will be immune but we will try our damndest to make sure that those with the greatest wealth pay their fair share. For a start, NI on everyone who works, no matter what their age , rises in pensions should be no higher than what is offered to other public sector workers and council tax bands above the current highest levels to capture the increase in house values in recent years. I'd hugely increase the amount non-doms have to pay for their status as well and limit the amount rich people can give to charities and claim back from their tax as well.

    Others will have other policies but they need to be presented as part of a narrative which explains that the next few years will be tough and that no-one will be exempt. Labour and the Lib Dems are still proposing to do something for the WASPI women, for instance - who have no legal case and are about as undeserving a group as you could find. This idea that you can throw sweeties at your favoured groups needs to be quashed.

    We have to think hard about how we are going to earn our living and start doing it. For all of Labour's success so far I am not at all sure that there is much of a narrative from them on this. And if they don't develop one - with the policies to match and the steel to resist all the many claims made on them - they will end up being buffeted by events when in power.
    The problem with this is that the pensioners are leeching from younger generations through rent and imposing huge pension rises on working age people, either via the state pension or RPI increases on final salary schemes that are paid for by current employees of companies. A tax on higher earning pensioners and clawbacks of the state pension would allow for taxes to be cut for working age people but Labour are simply too weak to pursue this policy.

    Younger generations pointing out, fairly, that pensioners are predatory and thieving from younger generations to fund their retirements. Making it prohibitively expensive to own additional properties is the best way to solve this as it frees up millions of houses for purchase by young people who are currently priced out of the market by landlords and second home owners.

    You want everyone to "get along" but while older generations are monopolising wealth and prosperity I see no reason for young people to be part of this grand bargain of "getting along" for the sake of it. It's up to older people to realise their selfishness is the cause of friction between the generations, they are leeching from their children and grandchildren yet want all of us to play nice because their parents made sacrifices while they made none.
    And they get rewarded with an 11% pension rise and students and young people get taxed and get their debt jacked up.

    All in it together? Nonsense
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    There was negligible tactical voting in Wakefield as evidenced by less than half the Tory drop going Labour. The LDs were already a nothing party there.
    There was plenty in Tiverton.

    That's an issue for the Tories - Bozo isn't just going to lose the Red Wall seats he won from Labour in 2019, he is on track to lose a lot of very safe Home County seats to the Lib Dems.

    And the policies the Tory's need to keep those Home County seats safe are the exact opposite of what is needed to retain the Red Wall seats.
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,293

    Pulpstar said:

    micktrain said:

    Iain Martin
    @iainmartin1
    ·
    1h
    Dowden's resignation is a disaster for the Prime Minister. His letter stresses loyalty to the Conservative party, not to Boris Johnson. Dowden has a lot of friends across the Tory party. With Sunak he backed Boris early in 2019 leadership race. Now he is on the
    backbenches.

    https://twitter.com
    /iainmartin1

    Conservatives are toast at the next election whoever is leader in the same way Biden will likely be toast In fact conditions may get so bad this may be the last ever tory majority govt

    Hmm I think it's still rescuable. Just not with Boris in charge. Every day they don't act means I'll more likely be wrong though.
    is it though? They've been in Government a long time and CoL and the economy are in a hole.

    If it was Labour in power right now we'd be counting down the days.
    I don't know. I think it's possible that if Labour had managed to oust Brown prior to 2010 and replaced him with someone else (e.g. David Miliband) they could have won enough seats to remain in office (either through a threadbare majority or largest party in a hung parliament). I think the same applies here. Replace Johnson with Mordaunt and I'd actually be fairly nervous.

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    OGH is right on this. The next election will see massive anit Tory tactical voting which will benefit Labour in the Red Wall and the Lib Dems in the Blue Wall. A pincer movement that will lock the Tories out of power, maybe for a generation. The Lib Dems should demand electoral reform as a condition of supporting a minority Labour government, and then people can vote for their first choice again, confident it won't result in their last choice getting elected.

    OGH is wrong about Wakefield. There was no tactical vote surge there. Tories lost 17%, Labour gained 8%.
    Blue wall, yes, big problems. Red wall, much less so. Labour are still toxic
  • eek said:

    There was negligible tactical voting in Wakefield as evidenced by less than half the Tory drop going Labour. The LDs were already a nothing party there.
    There was plenty in Tiverton.

    That's an issue for the Tories - Bozo isn't just going to lose the Red Wall seats he won from Labour in 2019, he is on track to lose a lot of very safe Home County seats to the Lib Dems.

    And the policies the Tory's need to keep those Home County seats safe are the exact opposite of what is needed to retain the Red Wall seats.
    As I have said many times, the great unifier of that vote, Mr Jeremy Corbyn, has gone
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    eek said:

    FPT

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Raab steps up to the plate.

    Raab's message - the electorate giving us a shoeing is a 'distraction'.
    Raab is as thick as mince and his Bill of Rights is one of the worst and most malicious pieces of proposed legislation around. I would write about it but why bother - the usual suspects will come on to display their ignorance and everyone else will ignore it.

    It is certainly a distraction from good governance. But what would Raab know about that.
    I've seen 2 comments elsewhere that the only thing its going to achieve is more cases going against this Government.

    Almost as if the Government needs to be make something else into a monster they can claim is "unfairly" attacking them.
    it's designed to make it more difficult to bring cases to court at all.
  • https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1540269150907555841

    He has tagged the Irish Labour Party. True, it wasn’t a good result for them. They weren’t playing
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    People aren't ignoring the bill of rights and other issues, the government has just successfully worn people down. We know the government doesnt care about standards or rights. Until they go it wont stop.

    Trouble is the more the government looks in trouble the more of that they will do to try and please core supporters.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    eek said:

    There was negligible tactical voting in Wakefield as evidenced by less than half the Tory drop going Labour. The LDs were already a nothing party there.
    There was plenty in Tiverton.

    That's an issue for the Tories - Bozo isn't just going to lose the Red Wall seats he won from Labour in 2019, he is on track to lose a lot of very safe Home County seats to the Lib Dems.

    And the policies the Tory's need to keep those Home County seats safe are the exact opposite of what is needed to retain the Red Wall seats.
    Ys it is a problem for them i agree, i was just pointung out 'tactical voting' in Wakefield is mainly phooey
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    OGH is right on this. The next election will see massive anit Tory tactical voting which will benefit Labour in the Red Wall and the Lib Dems in the Blue Wall. A pincer movement that will lock the Tories out of power, maybe for a generation. The Lib Dems should demand electoral reform as a condition of supporting a minority Labour government, and then people can vote for their first choice again, confident it won't result in their last choice getting elected.

    OGH is wrong about Wakefield. There was no tactical vote surge there. Tories lost 17%, Labour gained 8%.
    Blue wall, yes, big problems. Red wall, much less so. Labour are still toxic
    You only have to be less toxic than your opponent and Labour is far less toxic than the Conservative Party as this result shows.

  • DougSeal said:

    OGH is right on this. The next election will see massive anit Tory tactical voting which will benefit Labour in the Red Wall and the Lib Dems in the Blue Wall. A pincer movement that will lock the Tories out of power, maybe for a generation. The Lib Dems should demand electoral reform as a condition of supporting a minority Labour government, and then people can vote for their first choice again, confident it won't result in their last choice getting elected.

    OGH is wrong about Wakefield. There was no tactical vote surge there. Tories lost 17%, Labour gained 8%.
    Blue wall, yes, big problems. Red wall, much less so. Labour are still toxic
    You only have to be less toxic than your opponent and Labour is far less toxic than the Conservative Party as this result shows.

    As I keep saying, it is literally a reverse of GE19
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,817
    edited June 2022

    The thing is, this Tory Government proves that a large majority is pointless.

    This should be a proud reforming Government doing good things for people but they've honestly achieved sod all. It's kind of amazing really.

    I think that's a bit unfair. Firstly, they had to resolve brexit which the large majority made possible (along with the eviction of most ardent remainers from Parliament). Secondly, they have had to deal with Covid which not only killed a lot of people but wreaked huge economic damage which has largely been hidden from view by huge government spending. The price of that spending will haunt the next couple of governments, just as 2008 did, of whichever complexion.

    Their main and best idea was levelling up. It was hardly original, governments have been seeking to address the north south imbalance my entire adult life, but before Covid there was some ambitious plans in respect of infrastructure and it had the political imperative of protecting those redwall seats.

    Otherwise, it seems to me that they are somewhat short of ideas but given the big picture that hasn't mattered as much as it might have.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    I predicted the Tories would lose both seats but Boris would stay. Sadly - for the Conservative Party - this appears to be accurate on all counts

    Boris is clearly steering his Party to a catastrophic defeat. They need to oust him now

    Recall the Golden Bough. The sacrifice of the king propitiates the angry gods, and thus the tribe is saved. It is time to propitiate; because the gods - AKA the voters - are VERY angry

    And if, in the process, the Tory core has to put up with some social liberalism that it finds distasteful, then tough. If it should come to pass, a heavy Conservative defeat at the next election that allows this to happen will be as much a monument to their greed as it will be to Johnson's self-absorption and venality.

    Wokeness is not “social liberalism”, it is much more sinister than that

    I entirely agree with you on the predatory pensioners. We need a government for the young

    Unfortunately I don’t think Starmer’s Labour is it. They are as clueless - policy wise - as the Tories.

    But then, looking at the headlines in today’s FT, with emergencies across the world from humble Sri Lanka to mighty America, with the EU warning of “terrible splits” in the bloc as Russia shuts off the gas, I wonder if any politician anywhere has even a vague idea how to handle what’s coming our way

    Brace

    I really hate the way particular groups are described in offensive ways - "feckless young", "predatory pensioners" etc. This sort of tribal culture war language will do nothing to repair society.

    The current Tory party is exhausted and out of good ideas. Boris is a disgrace to his office and his government is degrading our democracy. His MPs should grow a spine, throw him out and start the process of rebuilding a Tory party that does not shame Britain. I doubt they will. But it is what they ought to do.if they don't the Tories will be out of power for a long time which will lead to the same problems with Labour. Parties that stay in power for too long become a menace.

    We need policies for the hard-working of all ages, the young and those who are poor and just about managing. We need proper housebuilding, to do something about the grotesque interest rates on student loans and the absurd obstacles we have put in the way of those who try to export. We need proper investment in infrastructure in all parts of the country and we need to repair relations with our nearest neighbours.

    We do not need more constitutional jiggery-pokery.

    What we need above all is a government which explains clearly that times are going to be hard for the next few years as we deal with the consequences of Brexit, Covid and world instabilities so that all of us will have to tighten our belts but that this will need to be done fairly. No-one will be immune but we will try our damndest to make sure that those with the greatest wealth pay their fair share. For a start, NI on everyone who works, no matter what their age , rises in pensions should be no higher than what is offered to other public sector workers and council tax bands above the current highest levels to capture the increase in house values in recent years. I'd hugely increase the amount non-doms have to pay for their status as well and limit the amount rich people can give to charities and claim back from their tax as well.

    Others will have other policies but they need to be presented as part of a narrative which explains that the next few years will be tough and that no-one will be exempt. Labour and the Lib Dems are still proposing to do something for the WASPI women, for instance - who have no legal case and are about as undeserving a group as you could find. This idea that you can throw sweeties at your favoured groups needs to be quashed.

    We have to think hard about how we are going to earn our living and start doing it. For all of Labour's success so far I am not at all sure that there is much of a narrative from them on this. And if they don't develop one - with the policies to match and the steel to resist all the many claims made on them - they will end up being buffeted by events when in power.
    The problem with this is that the pensioners are leeching from younger generations through rent and imposing huge pension rises on working age people, either via the state pension or RPI increases on final salary schemes that are paid for by current employees of companies. A tax on higher earning pensioners and clawbacks of the state pension would allow for taxes to be cut for working age people but Labour are simply too weak to pursue this policy.

    Younger generations pointing out, fairly, that pensioners are predatory and thieving from younger generations to fund their retirements. Making it prohibitively expensive to own additional properties is the best way to solve this as it frees up millions of houses for purchase by young people who are currently priced out of the market by landlords and second home owners.

    You want everyone to "get along" but while older generations are monopolising wealth and prosperity I see no reason for young people to be part of this grand bargain of "getting along" for the sake of it. It's up to older people to realise their selfishness is the cause of friction between the generations, they are leeching from their children and grandchildren yet want all of us to play nice because their parents made sacrifices while they made none.
    That doesn't really address the meat of Cyclefree's comment, with which I thought you'd have some sympathy.:

    ...We need policies for the hard-working of all ages, the young and those who are poor and just about managing...

    ...What we need above all is a government which explains clearly that times are going to be hard for the next few years as we deal with the consequences of Brexit, Covid and world instabilities so that all of us will have to tighten our belts but that this will need to be done fairly....

    ...rises in pensions should be no higher than what is offered to other public sector workers...
    etc.
  • micktrainmicktrain Posts: 137

    The thing is, this Tory Government proves that a large majority is pointless.

    This should be a proud reforming Government doing good things for people but they've honestly achieved
    sod all. It's kind of amazing really.

    A party as reliant on the grey vote as the Tories will never do any great reforming the oldies won't have it and they have the votes to stop it

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    First like yesterday

    Yesterday was the 23rd, shirley?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    FPT

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Raab steps up to the plate.

    Raab's message - the electorate giving us a shoeing is a 'distraction'.
    Raab is as thick as mince and his Bill of Rights is one of the worst and most malicious pieces of proposed legislation around. I would write about it but why bother - the usual suspects will come on to display their ignorance and everyone else will ignore it.

    It is certainly a distraction from good governance. But what would Raab know about that.
    I've seen 2 comments elsewhere that the only thing its going to achieve is more cases going against this Government.

    Almost as if the Government needs to be make something else into a monster they can claim is "unfairly" attacking them.
    it's designed to make it more difficult to bring cases to court at all.
    "...the usual suspects will come on to display their ignorance and everyone else will ignore it" would be impressively bilious even from malcolmg.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Psephologist Peter Kellner, reacts to Johnson's 'humble' we-must-listen statement:

    "Voters have made up their minds about him, whether they like him or dislike him - and they mostly dislike him - they have made up their minds. I really don't think that works any longer." ~AA https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1540268924943622144/video/1
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    eek said:

    There was negligible tactical voting in Wakefield as evidenced by less than half the Tory drop going Labour. The LDs were already a nothing party there.
    There was plenty in Tiverton.

    That's an issue for the Tories - Bozo isn't just going to lose the Red Wall seats he won from Labour in 2019, he is on track to lose a lot of very safe Home County seats to the Lib Dems.

    And the policies the Tory's need to keep those Home County seats safe are the exact opposite of what is needed to retain the Red Wall seats.
    A bit of integrity and decency in office tends to help everywhere.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    "But put it out there that I definitely *thought* about resigning." https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1540270388214747136/photo/1


  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    First like yesterday

    Yesterday was the 23rd, shirley?
    And the day before it preceded it anyway.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    DougSeal said:

    OGH is right on this. The next election will see massive anit Tory tactical voting which will benefit Labour in the Red Wall and the Lib Dems in the Blue Wall. A pincer movement that will lock the Tories out of power, maybe for a generation. The Lib Dems should demand electoral reform as a condition of supporting a minority Labour government, and then people can vote for their first choice again, confident it won't result in their last choice getting elected.

    OGH is wrong about Wakefield. There was no tactical vote surge there. Tories lost 17%, Labour gained 8%.
    Blue wall, yes, big problems. Red wall, much less so. Labour are still toxic
    You only have to be less toxic than your opponent and Labour is far less toxic than the Conservative Party as this result shows.

    As I keep saying, it is literally a reverse of GE19
    Reversing that would mean Tory minority government.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679

    Another fact to rebut the Johnson lies about sitting governments and by-elections. When Tony Blair was PM Labour fought 28 by-elections against the Tories. Played 28 Won 28 Lost 0. Proper leader. Proper campaigns. Proper government. Just go you useless lying incompetent crook

    Uxbridge?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Uxbridge_by-election
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    DougSeal said:

    OGH is right on this. The next election will see massive anit Tory tactical voting which will benefit Labour in the Red Wall and the Lib Dems in the Blue Wall. A pincer movement that will lock the Tories out of power, maybe for a generation. The Lib Dems should demand electoral reform as a condition of supporting a minority Labour government, and then people can vote for their first choice again, confident it won't result in their last choice getting elected.

    OGH is wrong about Wakefield. There was no tactical vote surge there. Tories lost 17%, Labour gained 8%.
    Blue wall, yes, big problems. Red wall, much less so. Labour are still toxic
    You only have to be less toxic than your opponent and Labour is far less toxic than the Conservative Party as this result shows.

    Yes. But it was not the result of tactical voting. Im not arguing the Tories won the seat.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Scott_xP said:

    Psephologist Peter Kellner, reacts to Johnson's 'humble' we-must-listen statement:

    "Voters have made up their minds about him, whether they like him or dislike him - and they mostly dislike him - they have made up their minds. I really don't think that works any longer." ~AA https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1540268924943622144/video/1

    See also his answer to "What can the PM do to win the next election" :

    "Resign."
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    DavidL said:

    Firstly, they had to resolve brexit which the large majority made possible (along with the eviction of most ardent remainers from Parliament).

    Brexit is not remotely "resolved" though
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,716
    Tory rebels looking pretty stupid this morning.

    If they had waited until now to stick the 50+ letters in then Johnson would be deep in the merde now.

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    I predicted the Tories would lose both seats but Boris would stay. Sadly - for the Conservative Party - this appears to be accurate on all counts

    Boris is clearly steering his Party to a catastrophic defeat. They need to oust him now

    Recall the Golden Bough. The sacrifice of the king propitiates the angry gods, and thus the tribe is saved. It is time to propitiate; because the gods - AKA the voters - are VERY angry

    And if, in the process, the Tory core has to put up with some social liberalism that it finds distasteful, then tough. If it should come to pass, a heavy Conservative defeat at the next election that allows this to happen will be as much a monument to their greed as it will be to Johnson's self-absorption and venality.

    Wokeness is not “social liberalism”, it is much more sinister than that

    I entirely agree with you on the predatory pensioners. We need a government for the young

    Unfortunately I don’t think Starmer’s Labour is it. They are as clueless - policy wise - as the Tories.

    But then, looking at the headlines in today’s FT, with emergencies across the world from humble Sri Lanka to mighty America, with the EU warning of “terrible splits” in the bloc as Russia shuts off the gas, I wonder if any politician anywhere has even a vague idea how to handle what’s coming our way

    Brace

    I really hate the way particular groups are described in offensive ways - "feckless young", "predatory pensioners" etc. This sort of tribal culture war language will do nothing to repair society.

    The current Tory party is exhausted and out of good ideas. Boris is a disgrace to his office and his government is degrading our democracy. His MPs should grow a spine, throw him out and start the process of rebuilding a Tory party that does not shame Britain. I doubt they will. But it is what they ought to do.if they don't the Tories will be out of power for a long time which will lead to the same problems with Labour. Parties that stay in power for too long become a menace.

    We need policies for the hard-working of all ages, the young and those who are poor and just about managing. We need proper housebuilding, to do something about the grotesque interest rates on student loans and the absurd obstacles we have put in the way of those who try to export. We need proper investment in infrastructure in all parts of the country and we need to repair relations with our nearest neighbours.

    We do not need more constitutional jiggery-pokery.

    What we need above all is a government which explains clearly that times are going to be hard for the next few years as we deal with the consequences of Brexit, Covid and world instabilities so that all of us will have to tighten our belts but that this will need to be done fairly. No-one will be immune but we will try our damndest to make sure that those with the greatest wealth pay their fair share. For a start, NI on everyone who works, no matter what their age , rises in pensions should be no higher than what is offered to other public sector workers and council tax bands above the current highest levels to capture the increase in house values in recent years. I'd hugely increase the amount non-doms have to pay for their status as well and limit the amount rich people can give to charities and claim back from their tax as well.

    Others will have other policies but they need to be presented as part of a narrative which explains that the next few years will be tough and that no-one will be exempt. Labour and the Lib Dems are still proposing to do something for the WASPI women, for instance - who have no legal case and are about as undeserving a group as you could find. This idea that you can throw sweeties at your favoured groups needs to be quashed.

    We have to think hard about how we are going to earn our living and start doing it. For all of Labour's success so far I am not at all sure that there is much of a narrative from them on this. And if they don't develop one - with the policies to match and the steel to resist all the many claims made on them - they will end up being buffeted by events when in power.
    The problem with this is that the pensioners are leeching from younger generations through rent and imposing huge pension rises on working age people, either via the state pension or RPI increases on final salary schemes that are paid for by current employees of companies. A tax on higher earning pensioners and clawbacks of the state pension would allow for taxes to be cut for working age people but Labour are simply too weak to pursue this policy.

    Younger generations pointing out, fairly, that pensioners are predatory and thieving from younger generations to fund their retirements. Making it prohibitively expensive to own additional properties is the best way to solve this as it frees up millions of houses for purchase by young people who are currently priced out of the market by landlords and second home owners.

    You want everyone to "get along" but while older generations are monopolising wealth and prosperity I see no reason for young people to be part of this grand bargain of "getting along" for the sake of it. It's up to older people to realise their selfishness is the cause of friction between the generations, they are leeching from their children and grandchildren yet want all of us to play nice because their parents made sacrifices while they made none.
    I understand your frustration, but I don't really see why housing assets are so different from other assets. You could make the same argument about equities - if old people were banned from owning more than their "fair share" of those then their price would go down and young people could buy them more easily. Essentially your argument comes down to an argument against a fundamental tenet of a free capitalist society, that the state shouldn't interfere in the ownership of capital. It just so happens that in this particular case, you would be a beneficiary of this particular restriction! And in fact, stamp duty rules already favour owner occupiers, especially first time buyers.
    The reality is that some people will always want/need to rent. We rented for a while when we first came to London before we got on the housing ladder by buying an ex-LA flat on a slightly iffy estate, and I'm glad there was private rented accommodation available. By all means drive bad landlords out of the market and tilt things in favour of owner occupiers but the idea that all private renting is wrong seems rather extreme.
    I should declare an interest here as we are (hopefully) about to exchange on a BTL flat, which we will rent out to a refugee family at zero and possibly negative profit.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Tory rebels looking pretty stupid this morning.

    If they had waited until now to stick the 50+ letters in then Johnson would be deep in the merde now.

    Morons. Birdbrained morons.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited June 2022
    Scott_xP said:

    I’m sad that my colleague and friend @OliverDowden took the decision to resign this morning.

    We all take responsibility for the results and I’m determined to continue working to tackle the cost of living, including delivering NICs changes saving 30 million people on average £330

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1540266662364053505

    Do 'we' all take responsibility? I thought Boris dismissed it as mid term blues? In which case even if he then claims responsibility he is saying it is nothing to worry about or to do with the gov.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Interesting header from Mike, which prompts the thought that Davey, despite having had a pretty low profile in the national media, has so far done rather well leading the Lib Dems in opposition.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,836

    Tory rebels looking pretty stupid this morning.

    If they had waited until now to stick the 50+ letters in then Johnson would be deep in the merde now.

    While we are on the topic of picking up large canine excrement in little green plastic bags, I see that Harry Lambert in the Staggers daily email points out:

    'A third MP tells me that upcoming elections to the executive of the 1922 committee – the body which will decide whether to hold another vote of no confidence in Johnson this year – are due to be held before the summer recess, rather than after, as previously anticipated. A rebel majority is expected to be elected, which will open the door to a rule change by the 1922 after the summer; there is no prospect, one senior MP thinks, of a rule change before then.

    But that senior MP also adds, cryptically, that they “doubt it will be necessary” to have another vote. Given that Johnson has refused to resign, it is hard to see how the party will remove him without a formal vote, but other cabinet ministers may today be emboldened by Oliver Dowden’s resignation, and momentum may soon build against Johnson once again.'
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    edited June 2022

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    I predicted the Tories would lose both seats but Boris would stay. Sadly - for the Conservative Party - this appears to be accurate on all counts

    Boris is clearly steering his Party to a catastrophic defeat. They need to oust him now

    Recall the Golden Bough. The sacrifice of the king propitiates the angry gods, and thus the tribe is saved. It is time to propitiate; because the gods - AKA the voters - are VERY angry

    And if, in the process, the Tory core has to put up with some social liberalism that it finds distasteful, then tough. If it should come to pass, a heavy Conservative defeat at the next election that allows this to happen will be as much a monument to their greed as it will be to Johnson's self-absorption and venality.

    Wokeness is not “social liberalism”, it is much more sinister than that

    I entirely agree with you on the predatory pensioners. We need a government for the young

    Unfortunately I don’t think Starmer’s Labour is it. They are as clueless - policy wise - as the Tories.

    But then, looking at the headlines in today’s FT, with emergencies across the world from humble Sri Lanka to mighty America, with the EU warning of “terrible splits” in the bloc as Russia shuts off the gas, I wonder if any politician anywhere has even a vague idea how to handle what’s coming our way

    Brace

    I really hate the way particular groups are described in offensive ways - "feckless young", "predatory pensioners" etc. This sort of tribal culture war language will do nothing to repair society.

    The current Tory party is exhausted and out of good ideas. Boris is a disgrace to his office and his government is degrading our democracy. His MPs should grow a spine, throw him out and start the process of rebuilding a Tory party that does not shame Britain. I doubt they will. But it is what they ought to do.if they don't the Tories will be out of power for a long time which will lead to the same problems with Labour. Parties that stay in power for too long become a menace.

    We need policies for the hard-working of all ages, the young and those who are poor and just about managing. We need proper housebuilding, to do something about the grotesque interest rates on student loans and the absurd obstacles we have put in the way of those who try to export. We need proper investment in infrastructure in all parts of the country and we need to repair relations with our nearest neighbours.

    We do not need more constitutional jiggery-pokery.

    What we need above all is a government which explains clearly that times are going to be hard for the next few years as we deal with the consequences of Brexit, Covid and world instabilities so that all of us will have to tighten our belts but that this will need to be done fairly. No-one will be immune but we will try our damndest to make sure that those with the greatest wealth pay their fair share. For a start, NI on everyone who works, no matter what their age , rises in pensions should be no higher than what is offered to other public sector workers and council tax bands above the current highest levels to capture the increase in house values in recent years. I'd hugely increase the amount non-doms have to pay for their status as well and limit the amount rich people can give to charities and claim back from their tax as well.

    Others will have other policies but they need to be presented as part of a narrative which explains that the next few years will be tough and that no-one will be exempt. Labour and the Lib Dems are still proposing to do something for the WASPI women, for instance - who have no legal case and are about as undeserving a group as you could find. This idea that you can throw sweeties at your favoured groups needs to be quashed.

    We have to think hard about how we are going to earn our living and start doing it. For all of Labour's success so far I am not at all sure that there is much of a narrative from them on this. And if they don't develop one - with the policies to match and the steel to resist all the many claims made on them - they will end up being buffeted by events when in power.
    The problem with this is that the pensioners are leeching from younger generations through rent and imposing huge pension rises on working age people, either via the state pension or RPI increases on final salary schemes that are paid for by current employees of companies. A tax on higher earning pensioners and clawbacks of the state pension would allow for taxes to be cut for working age people but Labour are simply too weak to pursue this policy.

    Younger generations pointing out, fairly, that pensioners are predatory and thieving from younger generations to fund their retirements. Making it prohibitively expensive to own additional properties is the best way to solve this as it frees up millions of houses for purchase by young people who are currently priced out of the market by landlords and second home owners.

    You want everyone to "get along" but while older generations are monopolising wealth and prosperity I see no reason for young people to be part of this grand bargain of "getting along" for the sake of it. It's up to older people to realise their selfishness is the cause of friction between the generations, they are leeching from their children and grandchildren yet want all of us to play nice because their parents made sacrifices while they made none.
    I understand your frustration, but I don't really see why housing assets are so different from other assets. You could make the same argument about equities - if old people were banned from owning more than their "fair share" of those then their price would go down and young people could buy them more easily. Essentially your argument comes down to an argument against a fundamental tenet of a free capitalist society, that the state shouldn't interfere in the ownership of capital. It just so happens that in this particular case, you would be a beneficiary of this particular restriction! And in fact, stamp duty rules already favour owner occupiers, especially first time buyers.
    The reality is that some people will always want/need to rent. We rented for a while when we first came to London before we got on the housing ladder by buying an ex-LA flat on a slightly iffy estate, and I'm glad there was private rented accommodation available. By all means drive bad landlords out of the market and tilt things in favour of owner occupiers but the idea that all private renting is wrong seems rather extreme.
    I should declare an interest here as we are (hopefully) about to exchange on a BTL flat, which we will rent out to a refugee family at zero and possibly negative profit.
    Equities aren't rent seeking - housing is.

    And every single BTL house on the rental market (or worse an airbnb) is one less house on the local housing market available for a family to buy.

    As for your last comment - good on you but that is still 1 local house that a local family can no longer live in - and so demand for local housing has increased slightly while available supply has dropped by 1 property. Worse you have removed the house from both the local (to buy and for rent) markets.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,716
    Scott_xP said:

    Psephologist Peter Kellner, reacts to Johnson's 'humble' we-must-listen statement:

    "Voters have made up their minds about him, whether they like him or dislike him - and they mostly dislike him - they have made up their minds. I really don't think that works any longer." ~AA https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1540268924943622144/video/1

    Yes, it really is now a case of will the anger with the lying sod fade in time for GE 2024.

    And if it hasn't then what's the odds he pushes back the GE until the last moment which is Jan 2025 iirc.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    DavidL said:


    The thing is, this Tory Government proves that a large majority is pointless.

    This should be a proud reforming Government doing good things for people but they've honestly achieved sod all. It's kind of amazing really.

    I think that's a bit unfair. Firstly, they had to resolve brexit which the large majority made possible (along with the eviction of most ardent remainers from Parliament). Secondly, they have had to deal with Covid which not only killed a lot of people but wreaked huge economic damage which has largely been hidden from view by huge government spending. The price of that spending will haunt the next couple of governments, just as 2008 did, of whichever complexion.

    Their main and best idea was levelling up. It was hardly original, governments have been seeking to address the north south imbalance my entire adult life, but before Covid there was some ambitious plans in respect of infrastructure and it had the political imperative of protecting those redwall seats.

    Otherwise, it seems to me that they are somewhat short of ideas but given the big picture that hasn't mattered as much as it might have.
    The problem with levelling up rhetoric is that it is a double whammy.
    Southerners feel they are spending all the money on the north.
    Northerners know they aren't.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    'We will listen' is the absolute last of the last straws. Just fuck off you useless fat turd, fuck off and don't come back.
    And breathe.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,836
    IshmaelZ said:

    applause for David Herdson's doubling of voteshare

    Yes indeed. Shame not to have a Margo MacDonald in Glasgow Govan event; but one can hope for the future.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191

    Tory rebels looking pretty stupid this morning.

    If they had waited until now to stick the 50+ letters in then Johnson would be deep in the merde now.

    Morons. Birdbrained morons.
    Why blame the rebels. Those without the wit to forsee these by-elections spankings, and who would now vote to get rid of rather than keep Boris are the idiots
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727

    https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1540269150907555841

    He has tagged the Irish Labour Party. True, it wasn’t a good result for them. They weren’t playing

    Loving Frosty's stats. Arguing that vote share among those eligible to vote did not go up much. It's a sodding by-election, in which turnout drops. Increasing vote share as a share of those eligible to vote in a by-election is a pretty astonishing achievement.

    Still likely to go back blue at the next election, but there are other seats where LDs are much closer and could win at next GE, particularly with Lab tactical votes.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,716

    https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1540269150907555841

    He has tagged the Irish Labour Party. True, it wasn’t a good result for them. They weren’t playing

    Why does anyone care a hoot what Lord Frost has to say about any of it?

    He is a former diplomat and trade negotiator.

    What the hell does he know about electoral politics?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,817
    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    Firstly, they had to resolve brexit which the large majority made possible (along with the eviction of most ardent remainers from Parliament).

    Brexit is not remotely "resolved" though
    It's not for you Scott but most have moved on. And so they should. The latest trade figures are from April where the ONS said: "EU exports have increased for the third consecutive month in April 2022 and are at the highest levels since records began."
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/bulletins/uktrade/april2022

    That said, we should be looking to reduce friction in our dealings with the EU rather than trying to find things to fight about for political reasons. There are further opportunities for growth that are being squandered there.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    dixiedean said:

    DavidL said:


    The thing is, this Tory Government proves that a large majority is pointless.

    This should be a proud reforming Government doing good things for people but they've honestly achieved sod all. It's kind of amazing really.

    I think that's a bit unfair. Firstly, they had to resolve brexit which the large majority made possible (along with the eviction of most ardent remainers from Parliament). Secondly, they have had to deal with Covid which not only killed a lot of people but wreaked huge economic damage which has largely been hidden from view by huge government spending. The price of that spending will haunt the next couple of governments, just as 2008 did, of whichever complexion.

    Their main and best idea was levelling up. It was hardly original, governments have been seeking to address the north south imbalance my entire adult life, but before Covid there was some ambitious plans in respect of infrastructure and it had the political imperative of protecting those redwall seats.

    Otherwise, it seems to me that they are somewhat short of ideas but given the big picture that hasn't mattered as much as it might have.
    The problem with levelling up rhetoric is that it is a double whammy.
    Southerners feel they are spending all the money on the north.
    Northerners know they aren't.
    It's worse than that. Southerners know they are spending their money on the North. Northerners know it's not enough. Proper levelling up is expensive.
  • Rishi Sunak has made a strategic error yet again.

    "We all take responsibility" he says, which means it isn't just Johnson it's the whole Government.

    If they want to relaunch after BoJo goes he's played this very badly indeed.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727

    https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1540269150907555841

    He has tagged the Irish Labour Party. True, it wasn’t a good result for them. They weren’t playing

    Why does anyone care a hoot what Lord Frost has to say about any of it?

    He is a former diplomat and trade negotiator.

    What the hell does he know about electoral politics?
    On recent evidence, what the hell does he know about diplomacy and trade negotiations? :wink:
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,284
    If the Conservatives have any sense they'll move against Boris The Loser now while he's out of the country.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,716

    OGH is right on this. The next election will see massive anit Tory tactical voting which will benefit Labour in the Red Wall and the Lib Dems in the Blue Wall. A pincer movement that will lock the Tories out of power, maybe for a generation. The Lib Dems should demand electoral reform as a condition of supporting a minority Labour government, and then people can vote for their first choice again, confident it won't result in their last choice getting elected.

    OGH is wrong about Wakefield. There was no tactical vote surge there. Tories lost 17%, Labour gained 8%.
    Blue wall, yes, big problems. Red wall, much less so. Labour are still toxic
    LibDems should ask to talk about reform for local elections rather than shoot too high and fail yet again. Starmer can't concede PR for Westminster like that.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    TORY MPS:
    "No you can't have a second EU referendum, the result of the first one must stand. Don't you believe in democracy?"

    TORY MPS:
    "No you can't have a second Scottish independence referendum, it was a once-in-a-generation opportunity. Stop playing politics with our country."

    ALSO TORY MPS:
    "omg we gave a vote of confidence in Boris and he turns out to be a loser, we must change the rules so we can have another vote at once"
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Pulpstar said:

    Tory rebels looking pretty stupid this morning.

    If they had waited until now to stick the 50+ letters in then Johnson would be deep in the merde now.

    Morons. Birdbrained morons.
    Why blame the rebels. Those without the wit to forsee these by-elections spankings, and who would now vote to get rid of rather than keep Boris are the idiots
    The rebels needed to give as much help to the hard of understanding as possible to maximise chances. They didnt.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    dixiedean said:

    DavidL said:


    The thing is, this Tory Government proves that a large majority is pointless.

    This should be a proud reforming Government doing good things for people but they've honestly achieved sod all. It's kind of amazing really.

    I think that's a bit unfair. Firstly, they had to resolve brexit which the large majority made possible (along with the eviction of most ardent remainers from Parliament). Secondly, they have had to deal with Covid which not only killed a lot of people but wreaked huge economic damage which has largely been hidden from view by huge government spending. The price of that spending will haunt the next couple of governments, just as 2008 did, of whichever complexion.

    Their main and best idea was levelling up. It was hardly original, governments have been seeking to address the north south imbalance my entire adult life, but before Covid there was some ambitious plans in respect of infrastructure and it had the political imperative of protecting those redwall seats.

    Otherwise, it seems to me that they are somewhat short of ideas but given the big picture that hasn't mattered as much as it might have.
    The problem with levelling up rhetoric is that it is a double whammy.
    Southerners feel they are spending all the money on the north.
    Northerners know they aren't.
    It's worse than that. Southerners know they are spending their money on the North. Northerners know it's not enough. Proper levelling up is expensive.
    ??? what money are the Tories spending up North?

    Locally it's improvements to the East Coast mainline - the actual benefits we will see are minimal as they are trying to cut the number of hourly services at the same time...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,716
    Scott_xP said:

    I’m sad that my colleague and friend @OliverDowden took the decision to resign this morning.

    We all take responsibility for the results and I’m determined to continue working to tackle the cost of living, including delivering NICs changes saving 30 million people on average £330

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1540266662364053505

    The David Miliband of modern Tory party waves his old friend 'Purnell' off.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,874
    FPT:

    OllyT said:



    Might be doing him a disservice but I suspect he's waiting for HQ to email the faithful telling them how to spin the results. He could be in for a long wait

    For all that I have had my run-ins with HYUFD in the past, he's only human, and I'm sure he's disappointed at the results and that his personal efforts to help retain T&H were not successful.
    Yes. I may be delighted with the results this morning, but there are a lot of good people out there, Conservative party members who have tried DESPITE Johnson to hold these two seats. They've done it for the best of motives themselves (even if I think misguided).

    At the last three General elections, I've spoken to the Green and LD candidate, and messaged the Conservative candidate here in Bootle. Wished them well (especially the LD) and commented how I though they were very brave standing in Bootle and were a credit to their party. They stood with best intentions.

    They all got annihilated.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited June 2022

    Scott_xP said:

    I’m sad that my colleague and friend @OliverDowden took the decision to resign this morning.

    We all take responsibility for the results and I’m determined to continue working to tackle the cost of living, including delivering NICs changes saving 30 million people on average £330

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1540266662364053505

    The David Miliband of modern Tory party waves his old friend 'Purnell' off.
    Sunaks 'i might quit' schtick is getting pretty pathetic now. He makes Bananaman look a genius
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727

    TORY MPS:
    "No you can't have a second EU referendum, the result of the first one must stand. Don't you believe in democracy?"

    TORY MPS:
    "No you can't have a second Scottish independence referendum, it was a once-in-a-generation opportunity. Stop playing politics with our country."

    ALSO TORY MPS:
    "omg we gave a vote of confidence in Boris and he turns out to be a loser, we must change the rules so we can have another vote at once"

    Not going to happen, but I wonder what Brady would do if a majority of Tory MPs submitted letters. Rules say no contest for a year, but Johnson would have clearly lost the confidence of the MPs. Quiet word with Johnson?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    I'm not saying the government doesn't know what it actually wants to do with Brexit, but Jacob Rees-Mogg says his top priority is changing the emergency exit signs inside the Dartford Tunnel. https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1540247376866295809/video/1
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,836
    Selebian said:

    TORY MPS:
    "No you can't have a second EU referendum, the result of the first one must stand. Don't you believe in democracy?"

    TORY MPS:
    "No you can't have a second Scottish independence referendum, it was a once-in-a-generation opportunity. Stop playing politics with our country."

    ALSO TORY MPS:
    "omg we gave a vote of confidence in Boris and he turns out to be a loser, we must change the rules so we can have another vote at once"

    Not going to happen, but I wonder what Brady would do if a majority of Tory MPs submitted letters. Rules say no contest for a year, but Johnson would have clearly lost the confidence of the MPs. Quiet word with Johnson?
    Vide my posting infra - Lambert of the Staggers noting some routes round that.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    OGH is right on this. The next election will see massive anit Tory tactical voting which will benefit Labour in the Red Wall and the Lib Dems in the Blue Wall. A pincer movement that will lock the Tories out of power, maybe for a generation. The Lib Dems should demand electoral reform as a condition of supporting a minority Labour government, and then people can vote for their first choice again, confident it won't result in their last choice getting elected.

    OGH is wrong about Wakefield. There was no tactical vote surge there. Tories lost 17%, Labour gained 8%.
    Blue wall, yes, big problems. Red wall, much less so. Labour are still toxic
    LibDems should ask to talk about reform for local elections rather than shoot too high and fail yet again. Starmer can't concede PR for Westminster like that.
    HoL reform into an elected (but not by not fptp) house is the way in, and desperately needed anyway. The most third world thing about this whole country, in a crowded field, is being governed by Lady Mones and Lord Lebedevskys.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,874

    I still maintain BoJo leads them into a GE late this year

    That would involve having to arrange a visit to the Palace.
    Ie, having to do something.

    He won't do that. He won't do anything. I mean, he doesn't even brush his hair.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,284

    OGH is right on this. The next election will see massive anit Tory tactical voting which will benefit Labour in the Red Wall and the Lib Dems in the Blue Wall. A pincer movement that will lock the Tories out of power, maybe for a generation. The Lib Dems should demand electoral reform as a condition of supporting a minority Labour government, and then people can vote for their first choice again, confident it won't result in their last choice getting elected.

    Tories out for a generation? Maybe, just maybe, getting a little bit carried away? ;)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    DavidL said:

    It's not for you Scott but most have moved on. And so they should.

    BoZo is about to blow up the Ireland peace accord and launch a trade war with Europe over it.

    Which part of that is "resolved" ?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Tory rebels looking pretty stupid this morning.

    If they had waited until now to stick the 50+ letters in then Johnson would be deep in the merde now.

    Those with a vested interest in removing this lot at the next GE should be toasting them today.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906


    Yes, it really is now a case of will the anger with the lying sod fade in time for GE 2024.

    And if it hasn't then what's the odds he pushes back the GE until the last moment which is Jan 2025 iirc.

    No way is my anger fading, and I expect Boris to carry on doing things that make it grow.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    OGH is right on this. The next election will see massive anit Tory tactical voting which will benefit Labour in the Red Wall and the Lib Dems in the Blue Wall. A pincer movement that will lock the Tories out of power, maybe for a generation. The Lib Dems should demand electoral reform as a condition of supporting a minority Labour government, and then people can vote for their first choice again, confident it won't result in their last choice getting elected.

    OGH is wrong about Wakefield. There was no tactical vote surge there. Tories lost 17%, Labour gained 8%.
    Blue wall, yes, big problems. Red wall, much less so. Labour are still toxic
    LibDems should ask to talk about reform for local elections rather than shoot too high and fail yet again. Starmer can't concede PR for Westminster like that.
    Or go for limited change - top ups like Holyrood etc which will increase their mps and probably give them balance of power often
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    Yes, it really is now a case of will the anger with the lying sod fade in time for GE 2024.

    No, because he is guaranteed to do several even more annoying things between now and then
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    Scott_xP said:

    I'm not saying the government doesn't know what it actually wants to do with Brexit, but Jacob Rees-Mogg says his top priority is changing the emergency exit signs inside the Dartford Tunnel. https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1540247376866295809/video/1

    WTF is he on. We have markers ever x00 metres so people can say where a problem (broken down car say) is. The need for those signs are suitable intervals doesn't change...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,716
    Marina Hyde
    @MarinaHyde
    ·
    22m
    Bottled it yet again lol
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,803
    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    I predicted the Tories would lose both seats but Boris would stay. Sadly - for the Conservative Party - this appears to be accurate on all counts

    Boris is clearly steering his Party to a catastrophic defeat. They need to oust him now

    Recall the Golden Bough. The sacrifice of the king propitiates the angry gods, and thus the tribe is saved. It is time to propitiate; because the gods - AKA the voters - are VERY angry

    And if, in the process, the Tory core has to put up with some social liberalism that it finds distasteful, then tough. If it should come to pass, a heavy Conservative defeat at the next election that allows this to happen will be as much a monument to their greed as it will be to Johnson's self-absorption and venality.

    Wokeness is not “social liberalism”, it is much more sinister than that

    I entirely agree with you on the predatory pensioners. We need a government for the young

    Unfortunately I don’t think Starmer’s Labour is it. They are as clueless - policy wise - as the Tories.

    But then, looking at the headlines in today’s FT, with emergencies across the world from humble Sri Lanka to mighty America, with the EU warning of “terrible splits” in the bloc as Russia shuts off the gas, I wonder if any politician anywhere has even a vague idea how to handle what’s coming our way

    Brace

    I really hate the way particular groups are described in offensive ways - "feckless young", "predatory pensioners" etc. This sort of tribal culture war language will do nothing to repair society.

    The current Tory party is exhausted and out of good ideas. Boris is a disgrace to his office and his government is degrading our democracy. His MPs should grow a spine, throw him out and start the process of rebuilding a Tory party that does not shame Britain. I doubt they will. But it is what they ought to do.if they don't the Tories will be out of power for a long time which will lead to the same problems with Labour. Parties that stay in power for too long become a menace.

    We need policies for the hard-working of all ages, the young and those who are poor and just about managing. We need proper housebuilding, to do something about the grotesque interest rates on student loans and the absurd obstacles we have put in the way of those who try to export. We need proper investment in infrastructure in all parts of the country and we need to repair relations with our nearest neighbours.

    We do not need more constitutional jiggery-pokery.

    What we need above all is a government which explains clearly that times are going to be hard for the next few years as we deal with the consequences of Brexit, Covid and world instabilities so that all of us will have to tighten our belts but that this will need to be done fairly. No-one will be immune but we will try our damndest to make sure that those with the greatest wealth pay their fair share. For a start, NI on everyone who works, no matter what their age , rises in pensions should be no higher than what is offered to other public sector workers and council tax bands above the current highest levels to capture the increase in house values in recent years. I'd hugely increase the amount non-doms have to pay for their status as well and limit the amount rich people can give to charities and claim back from their tax as well.

    Others will have other policies but they need to be presented as part of a narrative which explains that the next few years will be tough and that no-one will be exempt. Labour and the Lib Dems are still proposing to do something for the WASPI women, for instance - who have no legal case and are about as undeserving a group as you could find. This idea that you can throw sweeties at your favoured groups needs to be quashed.

    We have to think hard about how we are going to earn our living and start doing it. For all of Labour's success so far I am not at all sure that there is much of a narrative from them on this. And if they don't develop one - with the policies to match and the steel to resist all the many claims made on them - they will end up being buffeted by events when in power.
    The problem with this is that the pensioners are leeching from younger generations through rent and imposing huge pension rises on working age people, either via the state pension or RPI increases on final salary schemes that are paid for by current employees of companies. A tax on higher earning pensioners and clawbacks of the state pension would allow for taxes to be cut for working age people but Labour are simply too weak to pursue this policy.

    Younger generations pointing out, fairly, that pensioners are predatory and thieving from younger generations to fund their retirements. Making it prohibitively expensive to own additional properties is the best way to solve this as it frees up millions of houses for purchase by young people who are currently priced out of the market by landlords and second home owners.

    You want everyone to "get along" but while older generations are monopolising wealth and prosperity I see no reason for young people to be part of this grand bargain of "getting along" for the sake of it. It's up to older people to realise their selfishness is the cause of friction between the generations, they are leeching from their children and grandchildren yet want all of us to play nice because their parents made sacrifices while they made none.
    That doesn't really address the meat of Cyclefree's comment, with which I thought you'd have some sympathy.:

    ...We need policies for the hard-working of all ages, the young and those who are poor and just about managing...

    ...What we need above all is a government which explains clearly that times are going to be hard for the next few years as we deal with the consequences of Brexit, Covid and world instabilities so that all of us will have to tighten our belts but that this will need to be done fairly....

    ...rises in pensions should be no higher than what is offered to other public sector workers...
    etc.
    None of that is redistributive from older people to younger people. We need policies that reduce the wealth of older people and increase the wealth of younger people.

    Simply, any pensioner with income in the higher rate tax bracket before state pension benefits shouldn't receive them. Anyone pensioner who has liquid assets over £1m should face a wealth tax similar to those of discretionary trusts.

    Cyclefree is doing the same as always nice angry sounding words, but no solutions that would actually hurt for anyone over 65.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    Scott_xP said:

    I'm not saying the government doesn't know what it actually wants to do with Brexit, but Jacob Rees-Mogg says his top priority is changing the emergency exit signs inside the Dartford Tunnel. https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1540247376866295809/video/1

    "If equipment is safe and works, why does it need a regulation?"

    The pertinent question is surely "in the absence of a regulation, would the equipment work and be safe?". Buildings in the country generally don't fall down. We have a system on building regs and inspectors. Do we conclude that because buildings work and are safe we don't need regulations? A friend is a building inspector; from his stories I suspect that, in the absence of regulations, not all builders could be relied upon to build safe, working buildings.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    eek said:

    WTF is he on.

    High on his own Brexit supply...
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Carnyx said:

    Selebian said:

    TORY MPS:
    "No you can't have a second EU referendum, the result of the first one must stand. Don't you believe in democracy?"

    TORY MPS:
    "No you can't have a second Scottish independence referendum, it was a once-in-a-generation opportunity. Stop playing politics with our country."

    ALSO TORY MPS:
    "omg we gave a vote of confidence in Boris and he turns out to be a loser, we must change the rules so we can have another vote at once"

    Not going to happen, but I wonder what Brady would do if a majority of Tory MPs submitted letters. Rules say no contest for a year, but Johnson would have clearly lost the confidence of the MPs. Quiet word with Johnson?
    Vide my posting infra - Lambert of the Staggers noting some routes round that.
    Nothing to stop any backbencher proposing a vonc to the 22 committee is there? It wouldn't have any formal consequences but if it showed a yuge majority of backbenchers against him...

    @Tissue_Price are you there?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    Scott_xP said:

    I'm not saying the government doesn't know what it actually wants to do with Brexit, but Jacob Rees-Mogg says his top priority is changing the emergency exit signs inside the Dartford Tunnel. https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1540247376866295809/video/1

    That is absolutely a Brexit opportunity I want to seize.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,716
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I'm not saying the government doesn't know what it actually wants to do with Brexit, but Jacob Rees-Mogg says his top priority is changing the emergency exit signs inside the Dartford Tunnel. https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1540247376866295809/video/1

    WTF is he on. We have markers ever x00 metres so people can say where a problem (broken down car say) is. The need for those signs are suitable intervals doesn't change...
    It sounds like literally a reverse cones hotline.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    I predicted the Tories would lose both seats but Boris would stay. Sadly - for the Conservative Party - this appears to be accurate on all counts

    Boris is clearly steering his Party to a catastrophic defeat. They need to oust him now

    Recall the Golden Bough. The sacrifice of the king propitiates the angry gods, and thus the tribe is saved. It is time to propitiate; because the gods - AKA the voters - are VERY angry

    And if, in the process, the Tory core has to put up with some social liberalism that it finds distasteful, then tough. If it should come to pass, a heavy Conservative defeat at the next election that allows this to happen will be as much a monument to their greed as it will be to Johnson's self-absorption and venality.

    Wokeness is not “social liberalism”, it is much more sinister than that

    I entirely agree with you on the predatory pensioners. We need a government for the young

    Unfortunately I don’t think Starmer’s Labour is it. They are as clueless - policy wise - as the Tories.

    But then, looking at the headlines in today’s FT, with emergencies across the world from humble Sri Lanka to mighty America, with the EU warning of “terrible splits” in the bloc as Russia shuts off the gas, I wonder if any politician anywhere has even a vague idea how to handle what’s coming our way

    Brace

    I really hate the way particular groups are described in offensive ways - "feckless young", "predatory pensioners" etc. This sort of tribal culture war language will do nothing to repair society.

    The current Tory party is exhausted and out of good ideas. Boris is a disgrace to his office and his government is degrading our democracy. His MPs should grow a spine, throw him out and start the process of rebuilding a Tory party that does not shame Britain. I doubt they will. But it is what they ought to do.if they don't the Tories will be out of power for a long time which will lead to the same problems with Labour. Parties that stay in power for too long become a menace.

    We need policies for the hard-working of all ages, the young and those who are poor and just about managing. We need proper housebuilding, to do something about the grotesque interest rates on student loans and the absurd obstacles we have put in the way of those who try to export. We need proper investment in infrastructure in all parts of the country and we need to repair relations with our nearest neighbours.

    We do not need more constitutional jiggery-pokery.

    What we need above all is a government which explains clearly that times are going to be hard for the next few years as we deal with the consequences of Brexit, Covid and world instabilities so that all of us will have to tighten our belts but that this will need to be done fairly. No-one will be immune but we will try our damndest to make sure that those with the greatest wealth pay their fair share. For a start, NI on everyone who works, no matter what their age , rises in pensions should be no higher than what is offered to other public sector workers and council tax bands above the current highest levels to capture the increase in house values in recent years. I'd hugely increase the amount non-doms have to pay for their status as well and limit the amount rich people can give to charities and claim back from their tax as well.

    Others will have other policies but they need to be presented as part of a narrative which explains that the next few years will be tough and that no-one will be exempt. Labour and the Lib Dems are still proposing to do something for the WASPI women, for instance - who have no legal case and are about as undeserving a group as you could find. This idea that you can throw sweeties at your favoured groups needs to be quashed.

    We have to think hard about how we are going to earn our living and start doing it. For all of Labour's success so far I am not at all sure that there is much of a narrative from them on this. And if they don't develop one - with the policies to match and the steel to resist all the many claims made on them - they will end up being buffeted by events when in power.
    The problem with this is that the pensioners are leeching from younger generations through rent and imposing huge pension rises on working age people, either via the state pension or RPI increases on final salary schemes that are paid for by current employees of companies. A tax on higher earning pensioners and clawbacks of the state pension would allow for taxes to be cut for working age people but Labour are simply too weak to pursue this policy.

    Younger generations pointing out, fairly, that pensioners are predatory and thieving from younger generations to fund their retirements. Making it prohibitively expensive to own additional properties is the best way to solve this as it frees up millions of houses for purchase by young people who are currently priced out of the market by landlords and second home owners.

    You want everyone to "get along" but while older generations are monopolising wealth and prosperity I see no reason for young people to be part of this grand bargain of "getting along" for the sake of it. It's up to older people to realise their selfishness is the cause of friction between the generations, they are leeching from their children and grandchildren yet want all of us to play nice because their parents made sacrifices while they made none.
    I understand your frustration, but I don't really see why housing assets are so different from other assets. You could make the same argument about equities - if old people were banned from owning more than their "fair share" of those then their price would go down and young people could buy them more easily. Essentially your argument comes down to an argument against a fundamental tenet of a free capitalist society, that the state shouldn't interfere in the ownership of capital. It just so happens that in this particular case, you would be a beneficiary of this particular restriction! And in fact, stamp duty rules already favour owner occupiers, especially first time buyers.
    The reality is that some people will always want/need to rent. We rented for a while when we first came to London before we got on the housing ladder by buying an ex-LA flat on a slightly iffy estate, and I'm glad there was private rented accommodation available. By all means drive bad landlords out of the market and tilt things in favour of owner occupiers but the idea that all private renting is wrong seems rather extreme.
    I should declare an interest here as we are (hopefully) about to exchange on a BTL flat, which we will rent out to a refugee family at zero and possibly negative profit.
    Equities aren't rent seeking - housing is.

    And every single BTL house on the rental market (or worse an airbnb) is one less house on the local housing market available for a family to buy.

    As for your last comment - good on you but that is still 1 local house that a local family can no longer live in - and so demand for local housing has increased slightly while available supply has dropped by 1 property. Worse you have removed the house from both the local (to buy and for rent) markets.
    Rent seeking as an economic concept is distinct from earning a rental income on a property. Plenty of listed firms engage in rent seeking behaviour, so returns on equities certainly include an element of returns to rent seeking. There is nothing inherently parasitical about renting property.
    A property that is bought to rent will raise demand for owner occupied housing but also raise the supply of rental property, and so the price of renting will go down for renters, which is good news for those who rent. Meanwhile, as rents go down some landlords may decide to sell. In equilibrium it is hard to say what the impact of my purchase will be.
    On your last point, yes that is true. But that is true of all immigration if there isn't an increase in housing supply. Where I live there are lots of new build flats going up so hopefully the net supply is positive. And fundamentally I believe we need to fulfill our responsibilities on refugees in the face of a global crisis, so I am happy to be doing my bit to help house a refugee family.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,716
    glw said:


    Yes, it really is now a case of will the anger with the lying sod fade in time for GE 2024.

    And if it hasn't then what's the odds he pushes back the GE until the last moment which is Jan 2025 iirc.

    No way is my anger fading, and I expect Boris to carry on doing things that make it grow.
    Likewise.

    He has certainly got off to a smashing start with the story that he has spent last three years trying to engineer a job for his wife.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Pulpstar said:

    Tory rebels looking pretty stupid this morning.

    If they had waited until now to stick the 50+ letters in then Johnson would be deep in the merde now.

    Morons. Birdbrained morons.
    Why blame the rebels. Those without the wit to forsee these by-elections spankings, and who would now vote to get rid of rather than keep Boris are the idiots
    Quite so. And he's not truly safe if they have turned on him now anyway. If a majority are against you its will would become known.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Latest #LibDems byelection stunt #TivertonandHoniton https://twitter.com/benglaze/status/1540274707148193793/photo/1


  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,803

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    I predicted the Tories would lose both seats but Boris would stay. Sadly - for the Conservative Party - this appears to be accurate on all counts

    Boris is clearly steering his Party to a catastrophic defeat. They need to oust him now

    Recall the Golden Bough. The sacrifice of the king propitiates the angry gods, and thus the tribe is saved. It is time to propitiate; because the gods - AKA the voters - are VERY angry

    And if, in the process, the Tory core has to put up with some social liberalism that it finds distasteful, then tough. If it should come to pass, a heavy Conservative defeat at the next election that allows this to happen will be as much a monument to their greed as it will be to Johnson's self-absorption and venality.

    Wokeness is not “social liberalism”, it is much more sinister than that

    I entirely agree with you on the predatory pensioners. We need a government for the young

    Unfortunately I don’t think Starmer’s Labour is it. They are as clueless - policy wise - as the Tories.

    But then, looking at the headlines in today’s FT, with emergencies across the world from humble Sri Lanka to mighty America, with the EU warning of “terrible splits” in the bloc as Russia shuts off the gas, I wonder if any politician anywhere has even a vague idea how to handle what’s coming our way

    Brace

    I really hate the way particular groups are described in offensive ways - "feckless young", "predatory pensioners" etc. This sort of tribal culture war language will do nothing to repair society.

    The current Tory party is exhausted and out of good ideas. Boris is a disgrace to his office and his government is degrading our democracy. His MPs should grow a spine, throw him out and start the process of rebuilding a Tory party that does not shame Britain. I doubt they will. But it is what they ought to do.if they don't the Tories will be out of power for a long time which will lead to the same problems with Labour. Parties that stay in power for too long become a menace.

    We need policies for the hard-working of all ages, the young and those who are poor and just about managing. We need proper housebuilding, to do something about the grotesque interest rates on student loans and the absurd obstacles we have put in the way of those who try to export. We need proper investment in infrastructure in all parts of the country and we need to repair relations with our nearest neighbours.

    We do not need more constitutional jiggery-pokery.

    What we need above all is a government which explains clearly that times are going to be hard for the next few years as we deal with the consequences of Brexit, Covid and world instabilities so that all of us will have to tighten our belts but that this will need to be done fairly. No-one will be immune but we will try our damndest to make sure that those with the greatest wealth pay their fair share. For a start, NI on everyone who works, no matter what their age , rises in pensions should be no higher than what is offered to other public sector workers and council tax bands above the current highest levels to capture the increase in house values in recent years. I'd hugely increase the amount non-doms have to pay for their status as well and limit the amount rich people can give to charities and claim back from their tax as well.

    Others will have other policies but they need to be presented as part of a narrative which explains that the next few years will be tough and that no-one will be exempt. Labour and the Lib Dems are still proposing to do something for the WASPI women, for instance - who have no legal case and are about as undeserving a group as you could find. This idea that you can throw sweeties at your favoured groups needs to be quashed.

    We have to think hard about how we are going to earn our living and start doing it. For all of Labour's success so far I am not at all sure that there is much of a narrative from them on this. And if they don't develop one - with the policies to match and the steel to resist all the many claims made on them - they will end up being buffeted by events when in power.
    The problem with this is that the pensioners are leeching from younger generations through rent and imposing huge pension rises on working age people, either via the state pension or RPI increases on final salary schemes that are paid for by current employees of companies. A tax on higher earning pensioners and clawbacks of the state pension would allow for taxes to be cut for working age people but Labour are simply too weak to pursue this policy.

    Younger generations pointing out, fairly, that pensioners are predatory and thieving from younger generations to fund their retirements. Making it prohibitively expensive to own additional properties is the best way to solve this as it frees up millions of houses for purchase by young people who are currently priced out of the market by landlords and second home owners.

    You want everyone to "get along" but while older generations are monopolising wealth and prosperity I see no reason for young people to be part of this grand bargain of "getting along" for the sake of it. It's up to older people to realise their selfishness is the cause of friction between the generations, they are leeching from their children and grandchildren yet want all of us to play nice because their parents made sacrifices while they made none.
    I understand your frustration, but I don't really see why housing assets are so different from other assets. You could make the same argument about equities - if old people were banned from owning more than their "fair share" of those then their price would go down and young people could buy them more easily. Essentially your argument comes down to an argument against a fundamental tenet of a free capitalist society, that the state shouldn't interfere in the ownership of capital. It just so happens that in this particular case, you would be a beneficiary of this particular restriction! And in fact, stamp duty rules already favour owner occupiers, especially first time buyers.
    The reality is that some people will always want/need to rent. We rented for a while when we first came to London before we got on the housing ladder by buying an ex-LA flat on a slightly iffy estate, and I'm glad there was private rented accommodation available. By all means drive bad landlords out of the market and tilt things in favour of owner occupiers but the idea that all private renting is wrong seems rather extreme.
    I should declare an interest here as we are (hopefully) about to exchange on a BTL flat, which we will rent out to a refugee family at zero and possibly negative profit.
    People can't live in shares, OLB. That's the difference.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    Carnyx said:

    Selebian said:

    TORY MPS:
    "No you can't have a second EU referendum, the result of the first one must stand. Don't you believe in democracy?"

    TORY MPS:
    "No you can't have a second Scottish independence referendum, it was a once-in-a-generation opportunity. Stop playing politics with our country."

    ALSO TORY MPS:
    "omg we gave a vote of confidence in Boris and he turns out to be a loser, we must change the rules so we can have another vote at once"

    Not going to happen, but I wonder what Brady would do if a majority of Tory MPs submitted letters. Rules say no contest for a year, but Johnson would have clearly lost the confidence of the MPs. Quiet word with Johnson?
    Vide my posting infra - Lambert of the Staggers noting some routes round that.
    Thanks. I'd missed that.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Selebian said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I'm not saying the government doesn't know what it actually wants to do with Brexit, but Jacob Rees-Mogg says his top priority is changing the emergency exit signs inside the Dartford Tunnel. https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1540247376866295809/video/1

    "If equipment is safe and works, why does it need a regulation?"

    The pertinent question is surely "in the absence of a regulation, would the equipment work and be safe?". Buildings in the country generally don't fall down. We have a system on building regs and inspectors. Do we conclude that because buildings work and are safe we don't need regulations? A friend is a building inspector; from his stories I suspect that, in the absence of regulations, not all builders could be relied upon to build safe, working buildings.
    Here's Directive 2004/54/EC on this matter.

    It' says 25m or less. 25 yards is 22.86 metres.

    There's nothing stopping the signage from being at intervals of 25 yards.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eudr/2004/54/2004-04-29/data.pdf https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1540247376866295809 https://twitter.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1540269891076456448/photo/1
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,716
    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    It's not for you Scott but most have moved on. And so they should.

    BoZo is about to blow up the Ireland peace accord and launch a trade war with Europe over it.

    Which part of that is "resolved" ?
    Nor sure "about to" is accurate?

    The legislation will take months to get through the Commons and Lords, if it does at all.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431

    https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1540269150907555841

    He has tagged the Irish Labour Party. True, it wasn’t a good result for them. They weren’t playing

    Why does anyone care a hoot what Lord Frost has to say about any of it?

    He is a former diplomat and trade negotiator.

    What the hell does he know about electoral politics?
    Was he any good as a diplomat? He didn't seem to be a very good trade negotiator!
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    Scott_xP said:

    I'm not saying the government doesn't know what it actually wants to do with Brexit, but Jacob Rees-Mogg says his top priority is changing the emergency exit signs inside the Dartford Tunnel. https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1540247376866295809/video/1

    What is he even talking about? I doubt JRM could point to Dartford on a map.
  • "Ed Davey is proving himself to be a very capable party leader."

    I would also not underestimate the impact that Mark Pack is having as president of the Lib Dems.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Just interviewed Tory MP Andrew Mitchell in Rwanda. He says results are “truly terrible” and “underlines why so many of us in the party are deeply concerned about the leadership issue.” Still wants PM to go, adding it’s now up to the Parliamentary party to decide what to do next. https://twitter.com/DanielHewittITV/status/1540275266479611905/photo/1
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,716
    Scott_xP said:

    I'm not saying the government doesn't know what it actually wants to do with Brexit, but Jacob Rees-Mogg says his top priority is changing the emergency exit signs inside the Dartford Tunnel. https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1540247376866295809/video/1

    The plan is to make Brexit even shittier than it needs be so that they can blame Remainer lawyers and so win the Red Wall again.

    Or something...
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited June 2022
    Being in Rwanda is not looking like an astute move by Johnson but of course it would have been 1000x worse had the tory MPs not prematurely ejaculated.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    I predicted the Tories would lose both seats but Boris would stay. Sadly - for the Conservative Party - this appears to be accurate on all counts

    Boris is clearly steering his Party to a catastrophic defeat. They need to oust him now

    Recall the Golden Bough. The sacrifice of the king propitiates the angry gods, and thus the tribe is saved. It is time to propitiate; because the gods - AKA the voters - are VERY angry

    And if, in the process, the Tory core has to put up with some social liberalism that it finds distasteful, then tough. If it should come to pass, a heavy Conservative defeat at the next election that allows this to happen will be as much a monument to their greed as it will be to Johnson's self-absorption and venality.

    Wokeness is not “social liberalism”, it is much more sinister than that

    I entirely agree with you on the predatory pensioners. We need a government for the young

    Unfortunately I don’t think Starmer’s Labour is it. They are as clueless - policy wise - as the Tories.

    But then, looking at the headlines in today’s FT, with emergencies across the world from humble Sri Lanka to mighty America, with the EU warning of “terrible splits” in the bloc as Russia shuts off the gas, I wonder if any politician anywhere has even a vague idea how to handle what’s coming our way

    Brace

    I really hate the way particular groups are described in offensive ways - "feckless young", "predatory pensioners" etc. This sort of tribal culture war language will do nothing to repair society.

    The current Tory party is exhausted and out of good ideas. Boris is a disgrace to his office and his government is degrading our democracy. His MPs should grow a spine, throw him out and start the process of rebuilding a Tory party that does not shame Britain. I doubt they will. But it is what they ought to do.if they don't the Tories will be out of power for a long time which will lead to the same problems with Labour. Parties that stay in power for too long become a menace.

    We need policies for the hard-working of all ages, the young and those who are poor and just about managing. We need proper housebuilding, to do something about the grotesque interest rates on student loans and the absurd obstacles we have put in the way of those who try to export. We need proper investment in infrastructure in all parts of the country and we need to repair relations with our nearest neighbours.

    We do not need more constitutional jiggery-pokery.

    What we need above all is a government which explains clearly that times are going to be hard for the next few years as we deal with the consequences of Brexit, Covid and world instabilities so that all of us will have to tighten our belts but that this will need to be done fairly. No-one will be immune but we will try our damndest to make sure that those with the greatest wealth pay their fair share. For a start, NI on everyone who works, no matter what their age , rises in pensions should be no higher than what is offered to other public sector workers and council tax bands above the current highest levels to capture the increase in house values in recent years. I'd hugely increase the amount non-doms have to pay for their status as well and limit the amount rich people can give to charities and claim back from their tax as well.

    Others will have other policies but they need to be presented as part of a narrative which explains that the next few years will be tough and that no-one will be exempt. Labour and the Lib Dems are still proposing to do something for the WASPI women, for instance - who have no legal case and are about as undeserving a group as you could find. This idea that you can throw sweeties at your favoured groups needs to be quashed.

    We have to think hard about how we are going to earn our living and start doing it. For all of Labour's success so far I am not at all sure that there is much of a narrative from them on this. And if they don't develop one - with the policies to match and the steel to resist all the many claims made on them - they will end up being buffeted by events when in power.
    The problem with this is that the pensioners are leeching from younger generations through rent and imposing huge pension rises on working age people, either via the state pension or RPI increases on final salary schemes that are paid for by current employees of companies. A tax on higher earning pensioners and clawbacks of the state pension would allow for taxes to be cut for working age people but Labour are simply too weak to pursue this policy.

    Younger generations pointing out, fairly, that pensioners are predatory and thieving from younger generations to fund their retirements. Making it prohibitively expensive to own additional properties is the best way to solve this as it frees up millions of houses for purchase by young people who are currently priced out of the market by landlords and second home owners.

    You want everyone to "get along" but while older generations are monopolising wealth and prosperity I see no reason for young people to be part of this grand bargain of "getting along" for the sake of it. It's up to older people to realise their selfishness is the cause of friction between the generations, they are leeching from their children and grandchildren yet want all of us to play nice because their parents made sacrifices while they made none.
    I am not a pensioner and am very concerned about the future for the young. I don't think rude language helps, that's all. There are poor pensioners and rich young. You are one of the latter. I know quite a few poor pensioners in Millom who have not been stealing anything from anyone and have little in the way of assets. People like you should be taxed more to help people like them.

    I have proposed both below the line and above it a number of proposals which would shift the balance away from the wealthy to those who work, especially the young.

    We are I think broadly in agreement that too much policy has been aimed at only one group of favoured voters which is bad policy and bad for the economy and society. But I find it grimly amusing that it is you which has been a cheerleader for the Tory party and its policies which have largely been responsible for this for the last 12 years.

    Rather than castigating me perhaps you might reflect on whether your support for that party has been in part responsible for the policies you now say you dislike.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,817
    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    It's not for you Scott but most have moved on. And so they should.

    BoZo is about to blow up the Ireland peace accord and launch a trade war with Europe over it.

    Which part of that is "resolved" ?
    As I said Scott, this is a bad idea and we should be looking for reconciliation with the EU, not war.
This discussion has been closed.