Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

The LDs step up the tactical squeeze on LAB voters in Devon – politicalbetting.com

1567911

Comments

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Alistair said:

    US Supreme court just ended separation of Church and State in America.

    You'd think it would be bigger news.

    Context: https://twitter.com/mjs_DC/status/1539255249566945281
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    MISTY said: "Trumpist Republicans are completely against this war and detest Biden's 40bn funding for Ukraine."

    Here's what NORC found: "Most efforts to support Ukraine and sanction Russia enjoy bipartisan support. Republicans and Democrats overwhelmingly favor providing humanitarian support to refugees from Ukraine. Majorities in both parties also support imposing economic sanctions on Russia, banning the import of Russian oil, accepting Ukrainian refugees into the United States, and providing weapons to Ukraine. Democrats are more supportive than Republicans of providing direct funding and deploying troops to Eastern Europe."
    source: https://apnorc.org/projects/widespread-support-for-a-u-s-role-in-the-war-between-russia-and-ukraine/

    FWIW, the pollfound that independents are less likely to support Ukraine than are Republicans.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,039
    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,785
    Foxy said:

    TimS said:


    Backing the strikes is a disaster for Labour.

    Focusing on the need to negotiate is the best approach.
    Which is very much what Mick Lynch has been asking for.

    What an unexpected media star Lynch is, absolutely unflappable and reasonable in his approach, with just the right hint of humour, and willing to call out Ministers lies for what they are.

    He is a very formidable presence, I can see why the Tory ministers go pale at the sight of him in the studio.
    I remember there was an ambulance strike back in the 90s (late 80s?) when Ken Clarke was Health Secretary. Their union guy was great - just perfectly reasonable, down to earth, straight answers. While Clarke would flap and rage and only make the union guy's demands seem ever more reasonable.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    Spent lunchtime discussing politics with a number of American colleagues and clients.

    There seems to be a consistent message, at least from this lot (mix of traditional mid-West Republicans and Democrats, nobody particularly Trumpian or ultra-woke). Whatever happens in 1 years time it’s time for a younger generation. Biden is too old, Trump is too old.

    I’m with them. The US needs some youngsters in charge. The fact they all expressed admiration for the leaders of NZ, Estonia and Finland tells you the direction of travel.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    Checking in to say the government are wankers and don't know how to run the country

    Emergency legislation against strikers -
    1. Strike days must be consecutive, none of this five days of disruption for three days of strikes.
    2. Strike pay loss to be calculated as 1/232 not 1/365. Also reduce employer pension contributions by 1/232.
    3. Make incentivising strikes with pay over and above lost income illegal.
    4. Accelerate automation of key infrastructure and dilute the pool of eligible workers by simplifying the remaining jobs.

    1-3 can be done immediately with primary legislation, if that means the whole public sector goes on strike then so be it, they are doing it anyway so it won't make any difference. If the wankers want to strike then make it hurt.

    Notwithstanding the legitimacy of these strikes, should you be allowed to withdraw your labour in the event of what you considered to be substantially bad, but nonetheless legal behaviour by your employer?

    Surely the right to withdraw one's labour is a fundamental civil right, certainly for libertarian conservatives.
    Indeed. It is called 'resignation'.

    With current levels of employment law, there is no need for protections for striking workers.
    I believe that strike action in the modern-era is a blunt and politically counter- productive tool. That said, as a last resort workers should be perfectly at liberty to withdraw their labour without the threat of direct or constructive dismissal.
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594

    MISTY said: "Trumpist Republicans are completely against this war and detest Biden's 40bn funding for Ukraine."

    Here's what NORC found: "Most efforts to support Ukraine and sanction Russia enjoy bipartisan support. Republicans and Democrats overwhelmingly favor providing humanitarian support to refugees from Ukraine. Majorities in both parties also support imposing economic sanctions on Russia, banning the import of Russian oil, accepting Ukrainian refugees into the United States, and providing weapons to Ukraine. Democrats are more supportive than Republicans of providing direct funding and deploying troops to Eastern Europe."
    source: https://apnorc.org/projects/widespread-support-for-a-u-s-role-in-the-war-between-russia-and-ukraine/

    FWIW, the pollfound that independents are less likely to support Ukraine than are Republicans.

    Point taken I overstated the case, but the latest May 2022 numbers for the Republicans are 74% either minor role or no role in the war...??
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,287
    This is WHY Twitter

    A voluptuously fascinating thread on Egyptian culture, early Greece, human nature, western individualism V eastern communalism

    “Almost 4,000 years ago an Egyptian civil servant, worried for his life, fled north and found himself in the land inhabited by strange and violent cattle herders. This is the tale of Sinuhe and his experience of Indo-European warrior culture. [THREAD]”

    https://twitter.com/egy_philosopher/status/1539035950134837249?s=21&t=HWQeZdhOCKJ4gdtJmXtofQ
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    In the miner’s strike it (belatedly) worked because it came at the end of over a decade of excessive Union power.

    It won’t work now. The unions haven’t had much of any power recently, and most people are thinking good for them. I suspect a fair few may be inspired to join a Union. Times have changed and the (“high wage economy”) Tories don’t get it. Most people want a pay rise. Not just train drivers.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    BoZO terrified "his" war will end...

    EXC: Boris Johnson is concerned Zelensky is being pressured into agreeing a “s*****” peace deal with Russia because allies are getting tired of war

    He will push Germany, France + others to strengthen support at G7 / Nato talks next week. Source tells me a “big fight” is looming

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1539229404882157570

    The PM is right to be concerned.

    Scholz in particular, has been unwavering in his recent support for imports of Russian gas, over being seen to arm Ukraine.
    Things aren't going too well on the Ukraine PR front.

    Allowing Ukrainian corruption to get an airing by blaming the EU for bringing it up was not smart politics. All they needed to do was say 'we're working on it and we will of course aim to meet the standards required by the EU as soon as possible'

    Their closeness to Boris Johnson will also not be playing well. Certainly not in the UK where he's as popular as a sauteed toad but more widely across Europe

    If Ukraine lose their whiter than white status the help for their war effort will crumble as quickly as it built up.
    Putin speaks
    What is it with Old Lefties who are barely able to disguise their desire for Ukraine to lose?

    UGH
    It isn't just the left.

    Trumpist Republicans are completely against this war and detest Biden's 40bn funding for Ukraine.

    To be fair pre-Zelensky Ukraine wasn't necessarily a shining beacon of democracy! And during WWII Ukrainians could be found in some compromising places!
    I read a tweet recently the main political opposition in Ukraine has been banned? not sure what's going on there.
    That would be OPZZh, which supports the Russian invasion.

    They were the second largest party in terms of vote share in the most recent (2019) parliamentary election. With 13% of the vote.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    In fact Sir Keir would do worse than coining the phrase “Britain needs a pay rise” for the next election.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    If their opening bid was 7% surely somewhere around 5% was perfectly achievable through negotiation?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    From a thread on the AWS problems

    https://twitter.com/danielgross/status/1539270771582939138
    At Apple we had to re-install iOS almost every day. While very silly, it also puts everyone in the Day Zero user mindset. A similar (though less arcane) feedback mechanic is needed at AWS...
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    If their opening bid was 7% surely somewhere around 5% was perfectly achievable through negotiation?
    But for some reason the Government seems to want a strike - probably so they can pin the blame on closing ticket offices on someone not called Grant Shapps.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    BoZO terrified "his" war will end...

    EXC: Boris Johnson is concerned Zelensky is being pressured into agreeing a “s*****” peace deal with Russia because allies are getting tired of war

    He will push Germany, France + others to strengthen support at G7 / Nato talks next week. Source tells me a “big fight” is looming

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1539229404882157570

    The PM is right to be concerned.

    Scholz in particular, has been unwavering in his recent support for imports of Russian gas, over being seen to arm Ukraine.
    Things aren't going too well on the Ukraine PR front.

    Allowing Ukrainian corruption to get an airing by blaming the EU for bringing it up was not smart politics. All they needed to do was say 'we're working on it and we will of course aim to meet the standards required by the EU as soon as possible'

    Their closeness to Boris Johnson will also not be playing well. Certainly not in the UK where he's as popular as a sauteed toad but more widely across Europe

    If Ukraine lose their whiter than white status the help for their war effort will crumble as quickly as it built up.
    Putin speaks
    What is it with Old Lefties who are barely able to disguise their desire for Ukraine to lose?

    UGH
    It isn't just the left.

    Trumpist Republicans are completely against this war and detest Biden's 40bn funding for Ukraine.

    To be fair pre-Zelensky Ukraine wasn't necessarily a shining beacon of democracy! And during WWII Ukrainians could be found in some compromising places!
    I read a tweet recently the main political opposition in Ukraine has been banned? not sure what's going on there.
    One small one has. For supporting the Special Military Operation, ie treason.
    Actually several small parties, which support the SMO, have.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    TimS said:

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    In the miner’s strike it (belatedly) worked because it came at the end of over a decade of excessive Union power.

    It won’t work now. The unions haven’t had much of any power recently, and most people are thinking good for them. I suspect a fair few may be inspired to join a Union. Times have changed and the (“high wage economy”) Tories don’t get it. Most people want a pay rise. Not just train drivers.
    Train drivers aren't actually on strike.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,039
    edited June 2022

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    If their opening bid was 7% surely somewhere around 5% was perfectly achievable through negotiation?
    You would think so but the refusal to accept modernisation and voluntary redundancies by the RMT seems to be the issue, possibly more so than pay

    Interesting statistic - only 3% of Welsh residents use the railways
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994

    TimS said:

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    In the miner’s strike it (belatedly) worked because it came at the end of over a decade of excessive Union power.

    It won’t work now. The unions haven’t had much of any power recently, and most people are thinking good for them. I suspect a fair few may be inspired to join a Union. Times have changed and the (“high wage economy”) Tories don’t get it. Most people want a pay rise. Not just train drivers.
    Train drivers aren't actually on strike.
    All right cleverclogs, it was shorthand.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    It seems an odd war to wage at a time when almost everyone is on the economic back foot.

    Mrs Thatcher waged her war on the miners by first ensuring the Police, who were doing her bidding for her had been well recompensed, and those voters who were minded to vote for her were also doing ok.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    It seems an odd war to wage at a time when almost everyone is on the economic back foot.

    Mrs Thatcher waged her war on the miners by first ensuring the Police, who were doing her bidding for her had been well recompensed, and those voters who were minded to vote for her were also doing ok.
    And Thatcher’s popularity dipped during the strike. Governments not being able to control the country are never popular.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Alistair said:

    US Supreme court just ended separation of Church and State in America.

    You'd think it would be bigger news.

    No, it's not so abrupt.

    The latest decision is just part of the steady erosion of the scope of the Establishment Clause.
    https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/3530982-sotomayor-accuses-conservatives-of-dismantling-church-state-separation/

    The eventual effect is the same, but as you note, it doesn't make so big a splash.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,287
    TimS said:

    In fact Sir Keir would do worse than coining the phrase “Britain needs a pay rise” for the next election.

    Except that everyone will shout back “and how are you going to pay it??”

    Cue: tumbleweed
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    If their opening bid was 7% surely somewhere around 5% was perfectly achievable through negotiation?
    You would think so but the refusal to accept modernisation and voluntary redundancies by the RMT seems to be the issue, possibly more so than pay

    Interesting statistic - only 3% of Welsh residents use the railways
    How would anyone know what they are willing to do on modernisation or redundancy if the government are not willing to allow the train operators to discuss pay as part of the deal? It is just spoiling for a fight, a typical tactic of the government.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822

    TimS said:

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    In the miner’s strike it (belatedly) worked because it came at the end of over a decade of excessive Union power.

    It won’t work now. The unions haven’t had much of any power recently, and most people are thinking good for them. I suspect a fair few may be inspired to join a Union. Times have changed and the (“high wage economy”) Tories don’t get it. Most people want a pay rise. Not just train drivers.
    Train drivers aren't actually on strike.
    Do train spotters get today off, or is it a premium day?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,526
    Nigelb said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    BoZO terrified "his" war will end...

    EXC: Boris Johnson is concerned Zelensky is being pressured into agreeing a “s*****” peace deal with Russia because allies are getting tired of war

    He will push Germany, France + others to strengthen support at G7 / Nato talks next week. Source tells me a “big fight” is looming

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1539229404882157570

    The PM is right to be concerned.

    Scholz in particular, has been unwavering in his recent support for imports of Russian gas, over being seen to arm Ukraine.
    Things aren't going too well on the Ukraine PR front.

    Allowing Ukrainian corruption to get an airing by blaming the EU for bringing it up was not smart politics. All they needed to do was say 'we're working on it and we will of course aim to meet the standards required by the EU as soon as possible'

    Their closeness to Boris Johnson will also not be playing well. Certainly not in the UK where he's as popular as a sauteed toad but more widely across Europe

    If Ukraine lose their whiter than white status the help for their war effort will crumble as quickly as it built up.
    Putin speaks
    What is it with Old Lefties who are barely able to disguise their desire for Ukraine to lose?

    UGH
    It isn't just the left.

    Trumpist Republicans are completely against this war and detest Biden's 40bn funding for Ukraine.

    To be fair pre-Zelensky Ukraine wasn't necessarily a shining beacon of democracy! And during WWII Ukrainians could be found in some compromising places!
    I read a tweet recently the main political opposition in Ukraine has been banned? not sure what's going on there.
    That would be OPZZh, which supports the Russian invasion.

    They were the second largest party in terms of vote share in the most recent (2019) parliamentary election. With 13% of the vote.
    Seems more complicated than that, if the Wikipedia entry is correct. Others may know more, but apparently one member supported the invasion and was immediately expelled for doing so. The party then came out against the invasion on March 7, but was then suspended anyway on March 20 and banned altogether on June 20. The party is obviously softer-line on Russia but it's hard to see why the banning was justified.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_Platform_—_For_Life
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,039
    edited June 2022

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    If their opening bid was 7% surely somewhere around 5% was perfectly achievable through negotiation?
    You would think so but the refusal to accept modernisation and voluntary redundancies by the RMT seems to be the issue, possibly more so than pay

    Interesting statistic - only 3% of Welsh residents use the railways
    How would anyone know what they are willing to do on modernisation or redundancy if the government are not willing to allow the train operators to discuss pay as part of the deal? It is just spoiling for a fight, a typical tactic of the government.
    Actually the leader of the employers has just said they have the freedom to negotiate from the government

    Apparently an independent expert has commented that the issue is about voluntary redundancies which the union rejects
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,287
    Nigelb said:

    Alistair said:

    US Supreme court just ended separation of Church and State in America.

    You'd think it would be bigger news.

    No, it's not so abrupt.

    The latest decision is just part of the steady erosion of the scope of the Establishment Clause.
    https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/3530982-sotomayor-accuses-conservatives-of-dismantling-church-state-separation/

    The eventual effect is the same, but as you note, it doesn't make so big a splash.

    At least America has judges fighting back against the Wokeness

    We have nothing
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,897
    Nigelb said:

    From a thread on the AWS problems

    https://twitter.com/danielgross/status/1539270771582939138
    At Apple we had to re-install iOS almost every day. While very silly, it also puts everyone in the Day Zero user mindset. A similar (though less arcane) feedback mechanic is needed at AWS...

    What AWS problems? Looks like someone complaining about usability.

    This morning pb was affected by Cloudflare woes, whose explanation is at
    https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-outage-on-june-21-2022/
  • I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    If their opening bid was 7% surely somewhere around 5% was perfectly achievable through negotiation?
    You would think so but the refusal to accept modernisation and voluntary redundancies by the RMT seems to be the issue, possibly more so than pay

    Interesting statistic - only 3% of Welsh residents use the railways
    How would anyone know what they are willing to do on modernisation or redundancy if the government are not willing to allow the train operators to discuss pay as part of the deal? It is just spoiling for a fight, a typical tactic of the government.
    Who says the train operators aren't allowed to discuss it? Though presumably the train operators will need to reach an agreement within their own budget, they can't commit to using eg the NHS's budget on their own staff instead.

    Though I thought it said the union were refusing to discuss modernisation until the pay agreement was reached, ie punting it into the never-never.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    Nigelb said:

    Alistair said:

    US Supreme court just ended separation of Church and State in America.

    You'd think it would be bigger news.

    No, it's not so abrupt.

    The latest decision is just part of the steady erosion of the scope of the Establishment Clause.
    https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/3530982-sotomayor-accuses-conservatives-of-dismantling-church-state-separation/

    The eventual effect is the same, but as you note, it doesn't make so big a splash.
    Nothing wrong with state funding for religious schools, there are plenty of excellent state funded church schools here in the UK
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Alistair said:

    US Supreme court just ended separation of Church and State in America.

    You'd think it would be bigger news.

    No, it's not so abrupt.

    The latest decision is just part of the steady erosion of the scope of the Establishment Clause.
    https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/3530982-sotomayor-accuses-conservatives-of-dismantling-church-state-separation/

    The eventual effect is the same, but as you note, it doesn't make so big a splash.

    At least America has judges fighting back against the Wokeness

    We have nothing
    We have Johnson as PM and Patel as Home Secretary and Zahawi as Education Secretary who are all anti Woke. They have President Biden and VP Harris
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    Streisand Effect on PM.
    Second story.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,506
    PB on tour 2022. If you can’t beat em, join em.

    🥵 https://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2562305.

    Recent polls show Tory share back on 33%? That makes me feel better than the graph showing that uptick when I had predicted a down tick.

    On topic. I’m still not sure of Lib Dem win in Horni Town. Remember I called Shropshire North right, and took lots of PB flak for doing so. My gut feeling on this one is different. My reasoning is when the big turn round in Shropshire North happened, Downing Street party’s was all the political and main news even Ant and Dec being angry, but this happens against a different backdrop, so all that anger has to be baked in now despite off the news and electorate not moved on with partygate fatigue. Is it baked in to all Tory performance now? Secondly, if it was general election you won’t get uniform swinging, you may get 7 somewhere, 2 nearby, 5 down the road - all constituency electorates have their own psychology and views of things. Do you trust this particular electorate to be on same wave length as mid term bloody nose or is it not in their DNA. 🤔
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,161
    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Word is that German self-propelled artillery has now arrived in Ukraine.

    https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1539240601752940550

    Wow, let’s hope that Scholz got worried by what the rest of the G7 were going to say to him.

    More where that came from, please. Lots more.
    I wonder if they’ll be operating alongside UK SPGs?
    They didn't send any AS90 in the end but Baldy Ben certainly "looked at the idea" which must really shit up the Russians.

    It was just announced to generate a flurry of headlines then quietly shelved. This can be of no surprise to anyone familiar with the Johnson process.
    We bought some old US kit (a score of M109A4s) from somewhere else to send on, I think.
    Ongoing list is here;
    https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/answering-call-heavy-weaponry-supplied.html

    Seven systems from Germany, reportedly.
    20 x M109 purchased from a Belgian Arms Dealer, refurbished and (being, probably) sent on.

    https://www.army-technology.com/news/uk-acquires-m109-howitzers-ukrainian/
  • HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Alistair said:

    US Supreme court just ended separation of Church and State in America.

    You'd think it would be bigger news.

    No, it's not so abrupt.

    The latest decision is just part of the steady erosion of the scope of the Establishment Clause.
    https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/3530982-sotomayor-accuses-conservatives-of-dismantling-church-state-separation/

    The eventual effect is the same, but as you note, it doesn't make so big a splash.

    At least America has judges fighting back against the Wokeness

    We have nothing
    We have Johnson as PM and Patel as Home Secretary and Zahawi as Education Secretary who are all anti Woke. They have President Biden and VP Harris
    And Liz Truss as Women and Equalities Minister who has been praised from memory even by @Cyclefree for standing up for women's rights. Cyclefree is no fan of this Government.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,161

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    It seems an odd war to wage at a time when almost everyone is on the economic back foot.

    Mrs Thatcher waged her war on the miners by first ensuring the Police, who were doing her bidding for her had been well recompensed, and those voters who were minded to vote for her were also doing ok.
    I wouldn't call it a war.

    More like a game of buffets.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821

    TimS said:

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    In the miner’s strike it (belatedly) worked because it came at the end of over a decade of excessive Union power.

    It won’t work now. The unions haven’t had much of any power recently, and most people are thinking good for them. I suspect a fair few may be inspired to join a Union. Times have changed and the (“high wage economy”) Tories don’t get it. Most people want a pay rise. Not just train drivers.
    Train drivers aren't actually on strike.
    Do train spotters get today off, or is it a premium day?
    I visited Reading, Twyford and Maidenhead yesterday to beat the strike :)
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Alistair said:

    US Supreme court just ended separation of Church and State in America.

    You'd think it would be bigger news.

    No, it's not so abrupt.

    The latest decision is just part of the steady erosion of the scope of the Establishment Clause.
    https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/3530982-sotomayor-accuses-conservatives-of-dismantling-church-state-separation/

    The eventual effect is the same, but as you note, it doesn't make so big a splash.

    At least America has judges fighting back against the Wokeness

    We have nothing
    We have Johnson as PM and Patel as Home Secretary and Zahawi as Education Secretary who are all anti Woke. They have President Biden and VP Harris
    Leon said we have nothing. You mentioned Johnson and Patel. They both amount to nothing. Zahawi, I am less certain.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,297
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    In fact Sir Keir would do worse than coining the phrase “Britain needs a pay rise” for the next election.

    Except that everyone will shout back “and how are you going to pay it??”

    Cue: tumbleweed
    Tory governments don't know how to increase productivity -> no wage rises.
    Labour governments do.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Alistair said:

    US Supreme court just ended separation of Church and State in America.

    You'd think it would be bigger news.

    No, it's not so abrupt.

    The latest decision is just part of the steady erosion of the scope of the Establishment Clause.
    https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/3530982-sotomayor-accuses-conservatives-of-dismantling-church-state-separation/

    The eventual effect is the same, but as you note, it doesn't make so big a splash.

    At least America has judges fighting back against the Wokeness

    We have nothing
    The Founding Fathers were woke?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    MISTY said: "Trumpist Republicans are completely against this war and detest Biden's 40bn funding for Ukraine."

    Here's what NORC found: "Most efforts to support Ukraine and sanction Russia enjoy bipartisan support. Republicans and Democrats overwhelmingly favor providing humanitarian support to refugees from Ukraine. Majorities in both parties also support imposing economic sanctions on Russia, banning the import of Russian oil, accepting Ukrainian refugees into the United States, and providing weapons to Ukraine. Democrats are more supportive than Republicans of providing direct funding and deploying troops to Eastern Europe."
    source: https://apnorc.org/projects/widespread-support-for-a-u-s-role-in-the-war-between-russia-and-ukraine/

    FWIW, the pollfound that independents are less likely to support Ukraine than are Republicans.

    Looking at the most recent figures for cash and/or weapons support, the difference is stark, though.

    So saying that the Trumpist wing of the party detests the $40bn aid is quite possibly true.
  • Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Alistair said:

    US Supreme court just ended separation of Church and State in America.

    You'd think it would be bigger news.

    No, it's not so abrupt.

    The latest decision is just part of the steady erosion of the scope of the Establishment Clause.
    https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/3530982-sotomayor-accuses-conservatives-of-dismantling-church-state-separation/

    The eventual effect is the same, but as you note, it doesn't make so big a splash.

    At least America has judges fighting back against the Wokeness

    We have nothing
    The Founding Fathers were woke?
    For their day? Yes.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    It seems an odd war to wage at a time when almost everyone is on the economic back foot.

    Mrs Thatcher waged her war on the miners by first ensuring the Police, who were doing her bidding for her had been well recompensed, and those voters who were minded to vote for her were also doing ok.
    Yes, but while I wouldn't vote for the Tories while the Clown is in charge, it does remind me that Labour is always on the side of strikers (who think it is other people who should feel the effects of the cost of living crisis rather than them), and therefore further remind me of why I should never vote Labour.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Alistair said:

    US Supreme court just ended separation of Church and State in America.

    You'd think it would be bigger news.

    No, it's not so abrupt.

    The latest decision is just part of the steady erosion of the scope of the Establishment Clause.
    https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/3530982-sotomayor-accuses-conservatives-of-dismantling-church-state-separation/

    The eventual effect is the same, but as you note, it doesn't make so big a splash.

    At least America has judges fighting back against the Wokeness

    We have nothing
    The Establishment Clause long predates any such thing.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,161

    Reportedly Starmer experiencing his first big front bench rebellion over refusing to back striking workers during a cost of living crisis.

    This is a perfect encapsulation of the stakes in the battle for Labour’s soul.

    Oh behave.

    On the other hand, you could of course join class warrior Richard Burgon on the picket line.
    How big a revolt?

    SCG currently has 18% of Labour MPs (35 from 199) as members, and they are going to kick-off from time to time.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Alistair said:

    US Supreme court just ended separation of Church and State in America.

    You'd think it would be bigger news.

    No, it's not so abrupt.

    The latest decision is just part of the steady erosion of the scope of the Establishment Clause.
    https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/3530982-sotomayor-accuses-conservatives-of-dismantling-church-state-separation/

    The eventual effect is the same, but as you note, it doesn't make so big a splash.

    At least America has judges fighting back against the Wokeness

    We have nothing
    We have Johnson as PM and Patel as Home Secretary and Zahawi as Education Secretary who are all anti Woke. They have President Biden and VP Harris
    And Liz Truss as Women and Equalities Minister who has been praised from memory even by @Cyclefree for standing up for women's rights. Cyclefree is no fan of this Government.
    And even then that has been criticised as anti Trans by LGBTQI+ activists, so still not woke
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,506

    TimS said:

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    In the miner’s strike it (belatedly) worked because it came at the end of over a decade of excessive Union power.

    It won’t work now. The unions haven’t had much of any power recently, and most people are thinking good for them. I suspect a fair few may be inspired to join a Union. Times have changed and the (“high wage economy”) Tories don’t get it. Most people want a pay rise. Not just train drivers.
    Train drivers aren't actually on strike.
    Do train spotters get today off, or is it a premium day?
    I visited Reading, Twyford and Maidenhead yesterday to beat the strike :)
    You’ll get through this Sunil. We all will.

    Be Strong. 💪🏻
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    edited June 2022
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Alistair said:

    US Supreme court just ended separation of Church and State in America.

    You'd think it would be bigger news.

    No, it's not so abrupt.

    The latest decision is just part of the steady erosion of the scope of the Establishment Clause.
    https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/3530982-sotomayor-accuses-conservatives-of-dismantling-church-state-separation/

    The eventual effect is the same, but as you note, it doesn't make so big a splash.

    At least America has judges fighting back against the Wokeness

    We have nothing
    I've visited every station in London. Every single one of them!

    What have you got, Leon? You've got nothing!

    [shrieking] NOTHING!!!
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,377
    edited June 2022
    In the spirit of know thine enemy, I sometimes check out ConservativeHome. In an article today by their Deputy Editor (on the proposal to reignite the grammar school debate), I was struck by this sentence, which I find it hard to disagree with:

    This Government is developing a bad habit of stumbling into policy proposals seemingly not because of any great enthusiasm for the policy per se, but because it is viewed as fertile ground for a fight with the Opposition or other sundry forces of wokery and darkness.

    He refers to grammar schools and ECHR, but one could add Rwanda, imperial measures, and various other policies. It's not a basis for good governance, is it?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    edited June 2022

    TimS said:

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    In the miner’s strike it (belatedly) worked because it came at the end of over a decade of excessive Union power.

    It won’t work now. The unions haven’t had much of any power recently, and most people are thinking good for them. I suspect a fair few may be inspired to join a Union. Times have changed and the (“high wage economy”) Tories don’t get it. Most people want a pay rise. Not just train drivers.
    Train drivers aren't actually on strike.
    Do train spotters get today off, or is it a premium day?
    I visited Reading, Twyford and Maidenhead yesterday to beat the strike :)
    You’ll get through this Sunil. We all will.

    Be Strong. 💪🏻
    Also undertook my Special Railway Operation last Thursday to do the Trafford Centre tram line in Manchester last Thursday!

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,632
    2022 GOP.


  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    In the spirit of know thine enemy, I sometimes check out ConservativeHome. In an article today by their Deputy Editor (on the proposal to reignite the grammar school debate), I was struck by this sentence, which I find it hard to disagree with:

    This Government is developing a bad habit of stumbling into policy proposals seemingly not because of any great enthusiasm for the policy per se, but because it is viewed as fertile ground for a fight with the Opposition or other sundry forces of wokery and darkness.

    He refers to grammar schools and ECHR, but one could add Rwanda, imperial measures, and various other policies. It's not a basis for good governance, is it?

    It is because the Conservative Party is no longer conservative. It is populist, personified by Johnson and his love sick no1 fan Dorries. It is all straight out of the Trump/Farage playbook.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    dixiedean said:

    Streisand Effect on PM.
    Second story.

    hopefully max impact for Thursday.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402

    2022 GOP.


    Classy.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited June 2022
    ComRes has 58 to 34 that the strike IS justified and 66% saying GOVT not doing enough
    All in the wordings
    Justifued vs support
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Alistair said:

    US Supreme court just ended separation of Church and State in America.

    You'd think it would be bigger news.

    No, it's not so abrupt.

    The latest decision is just part of the steady erosion of the scope of the Establishment Clause.
    https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/3530982-sotomayor-accuses-conservatives-of-dismantling-church-state-separation/

    The eventual effect is the same, but as you note, it doesn't make so big a splash.

    At least America has judges fighting back against the Wokeness

    We have nothing
    I've visited every station in London. Every single one of them!

    What have you got, Leon? You've got nothing!

    [shrieking] NOTHING!!!
    And are they running between South Greenford and Drayton Green, and are they busy or quiet? And are the ghosts at Riccarton Junction asleep today or do they form a quiet picket line?

  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    ComRes has 58 to 34 that the strike IS justified and 66% saying GOVT not doing enough
    All in the wordings
    Justifued vs support

    In 2016 there were 51% of the population that were gullible. That figure just increased to 58%, though I suspect is not necessarily exactly the same demographic.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,377

    2022 GOP.


    I'm reluctant to state the obvious but I'll do it anyway - we'd all be better off if he were indeed an aborted baby. He's racist obnoxiousness personified.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    It seems an odd war to wage at a time when almost everyone is on the economic back foot.

    Mrs Thatcher waged her war on the miners by first ensuring the Police, who were doing her bidding for her had been well recompensed, and those voters who were minded to vote for her were also doing ok.
    Yes, but while I wouldn't vote for the Tories while the Clown is in charge, it does remind me that Labour is always on the side of strikers (who think it is other people who should feel the effects of the cost of living crisis rather than them), and therefore further remind me of why I should never vote Labour.
    That's interesting. Is it therefore your contention that nobody should go on strike, ever?

    Employers who are not exposed to the potential of collective defence and collective action can, and frequently do, act with impunity and treat their employees like absolute shit.

    We live in an environment where corporate profits, executive pay and asset prices in general are all continuously appreciating, whereas earned incomes are still below where they were in 2008, adjusting for inflation. That is symbolic of an economy that works only for certain privileged groups, like outright homeowners and the rich, whilst steadily impoverishing the rest. That situation has a number of causes; limited unionisation and the pathetically weak bargaining position of most workers is one of these.

    Rail workers going on strike because they won't accept a shit pay deal isn't the big issue here. Most other people accepting, or being forced to swallow, shit pay deals is.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited June 2022
    Justified being supported means Labour policy from Starmer is bang on the money then.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    Just missed my flight. 5th time in my adult life. This time because it was delayed delayed delayed and then suddenly gate closing, and unlike most sensible travellers I wasn’t parked at the gate waiting for news.

    But they got me on the later flight thank god. So I now have an hour or so extra in the no man’s land of departures for emails, paninis and idle social media perusal.

    Remember this post if “the later flight” tragically crashes.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830


    TimS said:

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    In the miner’s strike it (belatedly) worked because it came at the end of over a decade of excessive Union power.

    It won’t work now. The unions haven’t had much of any power recently, and most people are thinking good for them. I suspect a fair few may be inspired to join a Union. Times have changed and the (“high wage economy”) Tories don’t get it. Most people want a pay rise. Not just train drivers.
    Train drivers aren't actually on strike.
    Do train spotters get today off, or is it a premium day?
    I visited Reading, Twyford and Maidenhead yesterday to beat the strike :)
    You’ll get through this Sunil. We all will.

    Be Strong. 💪🏻
    Also undertook my Special Railway Operation last Thursday to do the Trafford Centre tram line in Manchester last Thursday!

    So how many drops was that for you, Sunil?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    pigeon said:

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    It seems an odd war to wage at a time when almost everyone is on the economic back foot.

    Mrs Thatcher waged her war on the miners by first ensuring the Police, who were doing her bidding for her had been well recompensed, and those voters who were minded to vote for her were also doing ok.
    Yes, but while I wouldn't vote for the Tories while the Clown is in charge, it does remind me that Labour is always on the side of strikers (who think it is other people who should feel the effects of the cost of living crisis rather than them), and therefore further remind me of why I should never vote Labour.
    That's interesting. Is it therefore your contention that nobody should go on strike, ever?

    Employers who are not exposed to the potential of collective defence and collective action can, and frequently do, act with impunity and treat their employees like absolute shit.

    We live in an environment where corporate profits, executive pay and asset prices in general are all continuously appreciating, whereas earned incomes are still below where they were in 2008, adjusting for inflation. That is symbolic of an economy that works only for certain privileged groups, like outright homeowners and the rich, whilst steadily impoverishing the rest. That situation has a number of causes; limited unionisation and the pathetically weak bargaining position of most workers is one of these.

    Rail workers going on strike because they won't accept a shit pay deal isn't the big issue here. Most other people accepting, or being forced to swallow, shit pay deals is.
    To go on strike is a human right so therefore it should not be made illegal. However, IMO it is generally not morally supportable in the modern age when the people striking mostly have the ability to work elsewhere if they do not like pay and conditions, particularly if that causes massive inconvenience to others.

    What they are saying is "we have a powerful union, so we will not accept the pain of the cost of living increases, but the rest of you can go and fuck yourselves".
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,287
    TimS said:

    Thanks to right wing media the definition of “woke” continues to expand and will not stop until it comes to mean “anything that’s in opposition to the Conservative party”.

    Unions: woke
    Big business: way too woke
    Pro-European tendencies: woke
    Teaching foreign languages at school: woke
    The metric system: woke as fuck
    Britain’s capital city, the whole of Surrey and Berkshire and all settlements north of Carlisle: yep, you guessed it, woke

    Here you go, a definitive guide to The Wokeness, for dim lefties who keep making this retarded point, believing it to be original if not interesting


    Woke Religion: A Taxonomy
    By
    @peterboghossian
    and
    @ShellenbergerMD



    https://twitter.com/peterboghossian/status/1458781564964331520?s=20&t=ZKME03Kosfa8ZzI3mJWkww
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,220

    ComRes has 58 to 34 that the strike IS justified and 66% saying GOVT not doing enough
    All in the wordings
    Justifued vs support

    Another example of the same effect:

    How you talk about pay rises makes a different to what people think is reasonable.

    Yesterday we polled teachers on what rise they’d give to the profession.
    In one version, we added context (‘anchors’) & in another just straight %s.


    https://twitter.com/miss_mcinerney/status/1539267930893991942

    Ask teachers without context, and they go for 4-6%. Tell them inflation is expected to peak around 11%, and the peak goes up to that.

    The other conculsion I take is that we haven't collectively clocked how bad inflation is and is going to get.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited June 2022
    Starmer will be deciding on punishment for strike joining MPs Friday. Completely coincidentally the news will be all about the by election fall out that day #bravesirrobin
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,634

    Justified being supported means Labour policy from Starmer is bang on the money then.

    Is he rehashing the Ed Miliband strategy?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-13971770
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    dixiedean said:

    Streisand Effect on PM.
    Second story.

    Give us a clue? Can’t find anything!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Alistair said:

    US Supreme court just ended separation of Church and State in America.

    You'd think it would be bigger news.

    No, it's not so abrupt.

    The latest decision is just part of the steady erosion of the scope of the Establishment Clause.
    https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/3530982-sotomayor-accuses-conservatives-of-dismantling-church-state-separation/

    The eventual effect is the same, but as you note, it doesn't make so big a splash.

    At least America has judges fighting back against the Wokeness

    We have nothing
    I've visited every station in London. Every single one of them!

    What have you got, Leon? You've got nothing!

    [shrieking] NOTHING!!!
    And are they running between South Greenford and Drayton Green, and are they busy or quiet? And are the ghosts at Riccarton Junction asleep today or do they form a quiet picket line?

    Greenford to West Ealing runs every 30 minutes normally, but looks like the service is running today.

    As for Riccarton, sadly, I've only been as far south as Tweedbank!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    TimS said:

    Thanks to right wing media the definition of “woke” continues to expand and will not stop until it comes to mean “anything that’s in opposition to the Conservative party”.

    Unions: woke
    Big business: way too woke
    Pro-European tendencies: woke
    Teaching foreign languages at school: woke
    The metric system: woke as fuck
    Britain’s capital city, the whole of Surrey and Berkshire and all settlements north of Carlisle: yep, you guessed it, woke

    Never heard foreign languages being included in the definition before.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,929

    Justified being supported means Labour policy from Starmer is bang on the money then.

    Just this morning it was a disaster? :D
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    ComRes has 58 to 34 that the strike IS justified and 66% saying GOVT not doing enough
    All in the wordings
    Justifued vs support

    Another example of the same effect:

    How you talk about pay rises makes a different to what people think is reasonable.

    Yesterday we polled teachers on what rise they’d give to the profession.
    In one version, we added context (‘anchors’) & in another just straight %s.


    https://twitter.com/miss_mcinerney/status/1539267930893991942

    Ask teachers without context, and they go for 4-6%. Tell them inflation is expected to peak around 11%, and the peak goes up to that.

    The other conculsion I take is that we haven't collectively clocked how bad inflation is and is going to get.
    Its also tied to Qs about if the govt is doing enough. Thats going to prime the answers too. Its a govt dissatisfaction response.
    They also find 60/35 'support the strikers'. Complete opposite of YouGov
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,506


    TimS said:

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    In the miner’s strike it (belatedly) worked because it came at the end of over a decade of excessive Union power.

    It won’t work now. The unions haven’t had much of any power recently, and most people are thinking good for them. I suspect a fair few may be inspired to join a Union. Times have changed and the (“high wage economy”) Tories don’t get it. Most people want a pay rise. Not just train drivers.
    Train drivers aren't actually on strike.
    Do train spotters get today off, or is it a premium day?
    I visited Reading, Twyford and Maidenhead yesterday to beat the strike :)
    You’ll get through this Sunil. We all will.

    Be Strong. 💪🏻
    Also undertook my Special Railway Operation last Thursday to do the Trafford Centre tram line in Manchester last Thursday!

    Good work!

    Has a train strike thing actually happened back in UK then? 🚂 what an excuse to homework! I expect more are convenienced by it than inconvenienced by it this week. I haven’t been following it, I’ve been sunbathing and reading a book.

    My brother has bought and done up a place here on island called Gozo but still doesn’t have water in the swimming pool he has built, but it doesn’t matter as place was so remote enough me and other half havn’t been wearing any clothes there and have perfect all over tans already.

    Now we are staying on the Malta Island at a place called St Julian’s and enjoying the nightlife 🍹💃🏻

    Hard work keeping up with the news on holiday isn’t it 🤣

    PS what are you using to post pictures easy- I’ve given up on imgur
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    I think it behoves us all to read this document on getting racism out of maths, a document which is now part of the Californian education system. Here's an excerpt about "white supremacy" in the mathematics classroom




    NOTES ON TERMS
    The terms used in the engagement section of this resource are ideas presented in the dismantling Racism workbook
    (2016) notebook, grounded on the work of Jones and Okun (2001). It is important to read this article first to fully
    understand the terms that are identified as characteristics of white supremacy culture in organizations. We contextualize these ideas into the math classroom to make visible how white supremacy culture plays out in these spaces.

    As a visual indicator, we italicize the terms used to identify white supremacy characteristics as
    defined by Jones and Okun (2001). They are as follows:

    • Perfectionism
    • Sense of Urgency
    • Defensiveness
    • Quantity Over Quality
    • Worship of the Written Word
    • Paternalism
    • Either/Or Thinking
    • Power Hoarding
    • Fear of Open Conflict
    • Individualism
    • Only One Right Way
    • Progress is Bigger, More
    • Objectivity
    • Right to Comfort

    Damn those white kids doing maths with their "objectivity", "sense of urgency", perfectionism", and "fear of open conflict", what maths needs is "subjectivity", "a sense of Whatever", "who cares if its right", and "open conflict"

    https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11/1_STRIDE1.pdf

    Hmmm. The rest of the document is an excellent approach to inclusivity and engagement in maths teaching, and I'd warmly commend it to the group. So I thought I'd also take ten minutes to see what this list is about.

    https://www.uuare.org/cwsc/

    Good link there. And the discussion of objectivity in terms of worldview, which would include things such as previous experiences of being taught maths, variation of approaches to problems (e.g. analytical, visual), is absolutely applicable to maths teaching. You can easily see how a dominant culture applying a single 'objective' approach to teaching might exclude those who do not share that.

    So I think we can untwist our knickers here. Remember, this is about *teaching* maths. And it isn't about white kids per se, it's about white supremacist teachers constructing an environment which demonstrates their theories that white kids in their classes are "better" at maths than black kids.
    Just checked that link


    Here we go. Here is the list of things included under Perfectionism, which in just one of the.....


    "CHARACTERISTICS OF WHITE SUPREMACY CULTURE
    by Tema Okun (original article)

    This is a list of characteristics of white supremacy culture which show up in our organizations:

    PERFECTIONISM

    little appreciation expressed among people for the work that others are doing; appreciation that is expressed usually directed to those who get most of the credit anyway

    more common is to point out either how the person or work is inadequate

    or even more common, to talk to others about the inadequacies of a person or their work without ever talking directly to them

    mistakes are seen as personal, i.e. they reflect badly on the person making them as opposed to being seen for what they are: mistakes

    making a mistake is confused with being a mistake, doing wrong with being wrong

    little time, energy, or money put into reflection or identifying lessons learned that can improve practice, in other words little or no learning from mistakes

    tendency to identify what’s wrong; little ability to identify, name, and appreciate what’s right"


    In short: white people and white teachers and white kids are intrinsically nasty, mean, selfish, self-centred, spiteful, critical, guilt-ridden and so on, and so forth

    This is pure, bilious racism. This has fuck all to do with "whiteness". Imagine ascribing these characterstics to "blackness" or "Jewishness" or "Chineseness"
    Whoever made this list obviously hasn't been to the Caribbean. They need to get out more.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Thanks to right wing media the definition of “woke” continues to expand and will not stop until it comes to mean “anything that’s in opposition to the Conservative party”.

    Unions: woke
    Big business: way too woke
    Pro-European tendencies: woke
    Teaching foreign languages at school: woke
    The metric system: woke as fuck
    Britain’s capital city, the whole of Surrey and Berkshire and all settlements north of Carlisle: yep, you guessed it, woke

    Here you go, a definitive guide to The Wokeness, for dim lefties who keep making this retarded point, believing it to be original if not interesting


    Woke Religion: A Taxonomy
    By
    @peterboghossian
    and
    @ShellenbergerMD



    https://twitter.com/peterboghossian/status/1458781564964331520?s=20&t=ZKME03Kosfa8ZzI3mJWkww
    Your retort is exactly the issue. The “anti-woke” have decided that everyone not right wing is therefore their caricature of woke.

    Most of us live our lives, try not to go out of our way to offend people for the sake of it, but object to the more puritanical attitudes of the Roundheads that populate parts of the left.

    But our pretty mainstream, normie and dare I say Blairite, views get grouped the Mail and friends as woke. So guess what, we stop listening to them. If you expand your list of enemies to incorporate most people in the country then generally in a democracy you end up losing.

    Everyone banged on in 2016 about how elite metropolitan Britain invented a fantasy globalist paradise that ignored the real voters. Now their opposite make the same mistake.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    Passed Crewe on Thursday and saw a load of brand new Merseyrail trains (Class 777) parked in the sidings.

  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,506

    Passed Crewe on Thursday and saw a load of brand new Merseyrail trains (Class 777) parked in the sidings.

    Everyday a strike day on Mersey rail, or was it a dress rehearsal for this week?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    TimS said:

    Just missed my flight. 5th time in my adult life. This time because it was delayed delayed delayed and then suddenly gate closing, and unlike most sensible travellers I wasn’t parked at the gate waiting for news.

    But they got me on the later flight thank god. So I now have an hour or so extra in the no man’s land of departures for emails, paninis and idle social media perusal.

    Remember this post if “the later flight” tragically crashes.

    You certainly won't forget if the one you missed does.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,297

    dixiedean said:

    Streisand Effect on PM.
    Second story.

    Give us a clue? Can’t find anything!
    Carrie on looking and you'll find it
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    IshmaelZ said:


    TimS said:

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    In the miner’s strike it (belatedly) worked because it came at the end of over a decade of excessive Union power.

    It won’t work now. The unions haven’t had much of any power recently, and most people are thinking good for them. I suspect a fair few may be inspired to join a Union. Times have changed and the (“high wage economy”) Tories don’t get it. Most people want a pay rise. Not just train drivers.
    Train drivers aren't actually on strike.
    Do train spotters get today off, or is it a premium day?
    I visited Reading, Twyford and Maidenhead yesterday to beat the strike :)
    You’ll get through this Sunil. We all will.

    Be Strong. 💪🏻
    Also undertook my Special Railway Operation last Thursday to do the Trafford Centre tram line in Manchester last Thursday!

    So how many drops was that for you, Sunil?
    In England, just need Dale Rail (Sundays only) on the National Rail network, also awaiting the opening of the tram to Blackpool North station, and the London Overground to Barking Riverside.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited June 2022

    ComRes has 58 to 34 that the strike IS justified and 66% saying GOVT not doing enough
    All in the wordings
    Justifued vs support

    Another example of the same effect:

    How you talk about pay rises makes a different to what people think is reasonable.

    Yesterday we polled teachers on what rise they’d give to the profession.
    In one version, we added context (‘anchors’) & in another just straight %s.


    https://twitter.com/miss_mcinerney/status/1539267930893991942

    Ask teachers without context, and they go for 4-6%. Tell them inflation is expected to peak around 11%, and the peak goes up to that.

    The other conculsion I take is that we haven't collectively clocked how bad inflation is and is going to get.
    I think we’re headed into a major global recession. Inflation (and interest rates) will fall. Lots of private sector job losses.

    The tories will try to weaponise anger towards the “greedy public sector.”

    Sadly, I think there’s a reasonable chance they’ll succeed.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    pigeon said:

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    It seems an odd war to wage at a time when almost everyone is on the economic back foot.

    Mrs Thatcher waged her war on the miners by first ensuring the Police, who were doing her bidding for her had been well recompensed, and those voters who were minded to vote for her were also doing ok.
    Yes, but while I wouldn't vote for the Tories while the Clown is in charge, it does remind me that Labour is always on the side of strikers (who think it is other people who should feel the effects of the cost of living crisis rather than them), and therefore further remind me of why I should never vote Labour.
    That's interesting. Is it therefore your contention that nobody should go on strike, ever?

    Employers who are not exposed to the potential of collective defence and collective action can, and frequently do, act with impunity and treat their employees like absolute shit.

    We live in an environment where corporate profits, executive pay and asset prices in general are all continuously appreciating, whereas earned incomes are still below where they were in 2008, adjusting for inflation. That is symbolic of an economy that works only for certain privileged groups, like outright homeowners and the rich, whilst steadily impoverishing the rest. That situation has a number of causes; limited unionisation and the pathetically weak bargaining position of most workers is one of these.

    Rail workers going on strike because they won't accept a shit pay deal isn't the big issue here. Most other people accepting, or being forced to swallow, shit pay deals is.
    To go on strike is a human right so therefore it should not be made illegal. However, IMO it is generally not morally supportable in the modern age when the people striking mostly have the ability to work elsewhere if they do not like pay and conditions, particularly if that causes massive inconvenience to others.

    What they are saying is "we have a powerful union, so we will not accept the pain of the cost of living increases, but the rest of you can go and fuck yourselves".
    If even half these signallers, platform staff and other railway workers decided to sling their hooks and work elsewhere then it would cause an awful lot more than a few days' inconvenience. It would cause a couple of years of inconvenience whilst all the replacements were hired and trained.

    Anyway, why should the rail workers not bargain for a better deal just because other people are either unable or unwilling to organise to do similar? One of the great successes of anti-union and anti-worker propaganda is this notion that, because strikes cause inconvenience to other people, those striking are entirely at fault and should be made to desist. You hear it all the time from the Government and a lot in vox pops as well - stuff along the lines of "why should I put up with strikes when I still need to get to work, and anyway they make more money than I do?" All too often the anger is thrown by one group of working people at another - when what they might, perhaps, wish to ask instead is "is this really down to the workers, or do crap employers perhaps have a case to answer?" or "why am I wasting my energy being jealous at them, rather than asking why my own employer is treating me like crap and what I can do about it?"

    The moral of this story is that, if everyone had the support of a strong union, the relative treatment of the mass of ordinary working people, versus that of high earners, well-to-do pensioners and the outright rich, would be rather more equitable - as opposed to the economy being run by the Conservative Party entirely for the benefit of its client groups.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited June 2022

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Alistair said:

    US Supreme court just ended separation of Church and State in America.

    You'd think it would be bigger news.

    No, it's not so abrupt.

    The latest decision is just part of the steady erosion of the scope of the Establishment Clause.
    https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/3530982-sotomayor-accuses-conservatives-of-dismantling-church-state-separation/

    The eventual effect is the same, but as you note, it doesn't make so big a splash.
    At least America has judges fighting back against the Wokeness

    We have nothing
    The Founding Fathers were woke?
    Retarded lefties, mainly.
    True conservatives are going to have to rethink the whole originalism thing at some point.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,506
    rkrkrk said:

    dixiedean said:

    Streisand Effect on PM.
    Second story.

    Give us a clue? Can’t find anything!
    Carrie on looking and you'll find it
    She would have been brilliant working for the Royal Family, she does look a lot like them - shame Boris couldn’t quite swing it 😕
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,039
    edited June 2022
    76% say the strike has not impacted them and with just 3% in Wales using the railways has WFH dealt a major blow to the industry

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1539259823891554306?t=D4Dzr2wFy-kIuMOw7m2aEw&s=19
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,094
    Ah, triple lock, truly the gift that keeps on giving. Literally.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1539292202156826625?t=xPxRrISdkjGQ3fICUjPx3Q&s=19

    If Sir Beer has lost the idiots at the Guardian he must be on the right track
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,094
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Alistair said:

    US Supreme court just ended separation of Church and State in America.

    You'd think it would be bigger news.

    No, it's not so abrupt.

    The latest decision is just part of the steady erosion of the scope of the Establishment Clause.
    https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/3530982-sotomayor-accuses-conservatives-of-dismantling-church-state-separation/

    The eventual effect is the same, but as you note, it doesn't make so big a splash.
    At least America has judges fighting back against the Wokeness

    We have nothing
    The Founding Fathers were woke?
    Retarded lefties, mainly.
    True conservatives are going to have to rethink the whole originalism thing at some point.
    Originalism already seemed to require pretty inventive interpretations dressed up as cleaving strictly to the letter.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    It seems an odd war to wage at a time when almost everyone is on the economic back foot.

    Mrs Thatcher waged her war on the miners by first ensuring the Police, who were doing her bidding for her had been well recompensed, and those voters who were minded to vote for her were also doing ok.
    Yes, but while I wouldn't vote for the Tories while the Clown is in charge, it does remind me that Labour is always on the side of strikers (who think it is other people who should feel the effects of the cost of living crisis rather than them), and therefore further remind me of why I should never vote Labour.
    That's interesting. Is it therefore your contention that nobody should go on strike, ever?

    Employers who are not exposed to the potential of collective defence and collective action can, and frequently do, act with impunity and treat their employees like absolute shit.

    We live in an environment where corporate profits, executive pay and asset prices in general are all continuously appreciating, whereas earned incomes are still below where they were in 2008, adjusting for inflation. That is symbolic of an economy that works only for certain privileged groups, like outright homeowners and the rich, whilst steadily impoverishing the rest. That situation has a number of causes; limited unionisation and the pathetically weak bargaining position of most workers is one of these.

    Rail workers going on strike because they won't accept a shit pay deal isn't the big issue here. Most other people accepting, or being forced to swallow, shit pay deals is.
    To go on strike is a human right so therefore it should not be made illegal. However, IMO it is generally not morally supportable in the modern age when the people striking mostly have the ability to work elsewhere if they do not like pay and conditions, particularly if that causes massive inconvenience to others.

    What they are saying is "we have a powerful union, so we will not accept the pain of the cost of living increases, but the rest of you can go and fuck yourselves".
    If even half these signallers, platform staff and other railway workers decided to sling their hooks and work elsewhere then it would cause an awful lot more than a few days' inconvenience. It would cause a couple of years of inconvenience whilst all the replacements were hired and trained.

    Anyway, why should the rail workers not bargain for a better deal just because other people are either unable or unwilling to organise to do similar? One of the great successes of anti-union and anti-worker propaganda is this notion that, because strikes cause inconvenience to other people, those striking are entirely at fault and should be made to desist. You hear it all the time from the Government and a lot in vox pops as well - stuff along the lines of "why should I put up with strikes when I still need to get to work, and anyway they make more money than I do?" All too often the anger is thrown by one group of working people at another - when what they might, perhaps, wish to ask instead is "is this really down to the workers, or do crap employers perhaps have a case to answer?" or "why am I wasting my energy being jealous at them, rather than asking why my own employer is treating me like crap and what I can do about it?"

    The moral of this story is that, if everyone had the support of a strong union, the relative treatment of the mass of ordinary working people, versus that of high earners, well-to-do pensioners and the outright rich, would be rather more equitable - as opposed to the economy being run by the Conservative Party entirely for the benefit of its client groups.
    The moral of the story is, in the real world that you refuse to inhabit, that there will be poor people who lose their jobs as a result of the selfishness of these tossers. In the real world there are many small businesses (you are probably a public sector man so have no sympathy), and those businesses are still under massive pressure post Covid. The huge reduction in footfall will probably put them out of business or cause them to lay people off. But I guess you don't care about them. that is teh morality of the left wing mindset
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,377
    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    I am

    Updated YouGov for BJO
    Britons tend to oppose the rail workers strikes taking place this week

    All Britons
    Support 37% / Oppose 45%

    Con voters
    Support 18% / Oppose 72%

    Lab voters
    Support 65% / Oppose 18%

    https://t.co/0J86iNrRWO https://t.co/KHoARzP4tj

    Strong Support/Oppose now at 14/27

    Interesting. I find a lot of polling difficult as read the questions way too literally. I don't really support the strikes taking place - I want there to be a resolution instead. But I very clearly blame the government, not the unions or even the rail bosses with impossible budgets to reconcile.
    An interesting polling question would be something like:

    "Do you think the government has done enough to seek to resolve the rail dispute and prevent the strikes taking place?".

    I suspect the answer would be a resounding 'no', even from many folk totally opposed to the strikes.
    It is more than possible Boris and the cabinet have taken the decision to take on the RMT and to arrive at a settlement circa 4-5% subject to modernisation as a bench mark for the public sector

    This is an economic and political struggle that could go either way but I believe this is a fight the government want to take on
    It seems an odd war to wage at a time when almost everyone is on the economic back foot.

    Mrs Thatcher waged her war on the miners by first ensuring the Police, who were doing her bidding for her had been well recompensed, and those voters who were minded to vote for her were also doing ok.
    Yes, but while I wouldn't vote for the Tories while the Clown is in charge, it does remind me that Labour is always on the side of strikers (who think it is other people who should feel the effects of the cost of living crisis rather than them), and therefore further remind me of why I should never vote Labour.
    That's interesting. Is it therefore your contention that nobody should go on strike, ever?

    Employers who are not exposed to the potential of collective defence and collective action can, and frequently do, act with impunity and treat their employees like absolute shit.

    We live in an environment where corporate profits, executive pay and asset prices in general are all continuously appreciating, whereas earned incomes are still below where they were in 2008, adjusting for inflation. That is symbolic of an economy that works only for certain privileged groups, like outright homeowners and the rich, whilst steadily impoverishing the rest. That situation has a number of causes; limited unionisation and the pathetically weak bargaining position of most workers is one of these.

    Rail workers going on strike because they won't accept a shit pay deal isn't the big issue here. Most other people accepting, or being forced to swallow, shit pay deals is.
    To go on strike is a human right so therefore it should not be made illegal. However, IMO it is generally not morally supportable in the modern age when the people striking mostly have the ability to work elsewhere if they do not like pay and conditions, particularly if that causes massive inconvenience to others.

    What they are saying is "we have a powerful union, so we will not accept the pain of the cost of living increases, but the rest of you can go and fuck yourselves".
    If even half these signallers, platform staff and other railway workers decided to sling their hooks and work elsewhere then it would cause an awful lot more than a few days' inconvenience. It would cause a couple of years of inconvenience whilst all the replacements were hired and trained.

    Anyway, why should the rail workers not bargain for a better deal just because other people are either unable or unwilling to organise to do similar? One of the great successes of anti-union and anti-worker propaganda is this notion that, because strikes cause inconvenience to other people, those striking are entirely at fault and should be made to desist. You hear it all the time from the Government and a lot in vox pops as well - stuff along the lines of "why should I put up with strikes when I still need to get to work, and anyway they make more money than I do?" All too often the anger is thrown by one group of working people at another - when what they might, perhaps, wish to ask instead is "is this really down to the workers, or do crap employers perhaps have a case to answer?" or "why am I wasting my energy being jealous at them, rather than asking why my own employer is treating me like crap and what I can do about it?"

    The moral of this story is that, if everyone had the support of a strong union, the relative treatment of the mass of ordinary working people, versus that of high earners, well-to-do pensioners and the outright rich, would be rather more equitable - as opposed to the economy being run by the Conservative Party entirely for the benefit of its client groups.
    Or, to put it more concisely, divide and rule has been the leitmotif of Tory governments for as long as I can remember.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,828
    Nice story

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAkZY4iU5Gg

    I just hope all these funds going into Ukraine end up in the right place.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,287
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Thanks to right wing media the definition of “woke” continues to expand and will not stop until it comes to mean “anything that’s in opposition to the Conservative party”.

    Unions: woke
    Big business: way too woke
    Pro-European tendencies: woke
    Teaching foreign languages at school: woke
    The metric system: woke as fuck
    Britain’s capital city, the whole of Surrey and Berkshire and all settlements north of Carlisle: yep, you guessed it, woke

    Here you go, a definitive guide to The Wokeness, for dim lefties who keep making this retarded point, believing it to be original if not interesting


    Woke Religion: A Taxonomy
    By
    @peterboghossian
    and
    @ShellenbergerMD



    https://twitter.com/peterboghossian/status/1458781564964331520?s=20&t=ZKME03Kosfa8ZzI3mJWkww
    Your retort is exactly the issue. The “anti-woke” have decided that everyone not right wing is therefore their caricature of woke.

    Most of us live our lives, try not to go out of our way to offend people for the sake of it, but object to the more puritanical attitudes of the Roundheads that populate parts of the left.

    But our pretty mainstream, normie and dare I say Blairite, views get grouped the Mail and friends as woke. So guess what, we stop listening to them. If you expand your list of enemies to incorporate most people in the country then generally in a democracy you end up losing.

    Everyone banged on in 2016 about how elite metropolitan Britain invented a fantasy globalist paradise that ignored the real voters. Now their opposite make the same mistake.
    You didn't even read it, and if you did you still probably wouldn't get it

    Intelligent lefties like you that do not accept the existential peril of Wokeness are a major part of the problem. You just think it is cranks, social justice warriors, etc. It is waaaaay beyond that
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    dixiedean said:

    TimS said:

    Just missed my flight. 5th time in my adult life. This time because it was delayed delayed delayed and then suddenly gate closing, and unlike most sensible travellers I wasn’t parked at the gate waiting for news.

    But they got me on the later flight thank god. So I now have an hour or so extra in the no man’s land of departures for emails, paninis and idle social media perusal.

    Remember this post if “the later flight” tragically crashes.

    You certainly won't forget if the one you missed does.
    First time overbooked flight from Dar es Salaam, 3 more days before the next flight. Should have enjoyed but too stressed.

    Second time traffic jams on M11, night in Standsted Radisson before flying to Malmo

    Third time Friday traffic jam on the périphérique, extra night in Paris

    Fourth time turned up at gate in T5 with my son’s passport, had to return next day to take the flight to Dusseldorf

    Nearly 5th time missed gate closing from Miami to London, got on the plane but downgraded to economy

    Then today. Probably the most comfortable and stress free missed flight to date. So far.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,094
    edited June 2022
    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    I think it behoves us all to read this document on getting racism out of maths, a document which is now part of the Californian education system. Here's an excerpt about "white supremacy" in the mathematics classroom




    NOTES ON TERMS
    The terms used in the engagement section of this resource are ideas presented in the dismantling Racism workbook
    (2016) notebook, grounded on the work of Jones and Okun (2001). It is important to read this article first to fully
    understand the terms that are identified as characteristics of white supremacy culture in organizations. We contextualize these ideas into the math classroom to make visible how white supremacy culture plays out in these spaces.

    As a visual indicator, we italicize the terms used to identify white supremacy characteristics as
    defined by Jones and Okun (2001). They are as follows:

    • Perfectionism
    • Sense of Urgency
    • Defensiveness
    • Quantity Over Quality
    • Worship of the Written Word
    • Paternalism
    • Either/Or Thinking
    • Power Hoarding
    • Fear of Open Conflict
    • Individualism
    • Only One Right Way
    • Progress is Bigger, More
    • Objectivity
    • Right to Comfort

    Damn those white kids doing maths with their "objectivity", "sense of urgency", perfectionism", and "fear of open conflict", what maths needs is "subjectivity", "a sense of Whatever", "who cares if its right", and "open conflict"

    https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11/1_STRIDE1.pdf

    Hmmm. The rest of the document is an excellent approach to inclusivity and engagement in maths teaching, and I'd warmly commend it to the group. So I thought I'd also take ten minutes to see what this list is about.

    https://www.uuare.org/cwsc/

    Good link there. And the discussion of objectivity in terms of worldview, which would include things such as previous experiences of being taught maths, variation of approaches to problems (e.g. analytical, visual), is absolutely applicable to maths teaching. You can easily see how a dominant culture applying a single 'objective' approach to teaching might exclude those who do not share that.

    So I think we can untwist our knickers here. Remember, this is about *teaching* maths. And it isn't about white kids per se, it's about white supremacist teachers constructing an environment which demonstrates their theories that white kids in their classes are "better" at maths than black kids.
    Just checked that link


    Here we go. Here is the list of things included under Perfectionism, which in just one of the.....


    "CHARACTERISTICS OF WHITE SUPREMACY CULTURE
    by Tema Okun (original article)

    This is a list of characteristics of white supremacy culture which show up in our organizations:

    PERFECTIONISM

    little appreciation expressed among people for the work that others are doing; appreciation that is expressed usually directed to those who get most of the credit anyway

    more common is to point out either how the person or work is inadequate

    or even more common, to talk to others about the inadequacies of a person or their work without ever talking directly to them

    mistakes are seen as personal, i.e. they reflect badly on the person making them as opposed to being seen for what they are: mistakes

    making a mistake is confused with being a mistake, doing wrong with being wrong

    little time, energy, or money put into reflection or identifying lessons learned that can improve practice, in other words little or no learning from mistakes

    tendency to identify what’s wrong; little ability to identify, name, and appreciate what’s right"


    In short: white people and white teachers and white kids are intrinsically nasty, mean, selfish, self-centred, spiteful, critical, guilt-ridden and so on, and so forth

    This is pure, bilious racism. This has fuck all to do with "whiteness". Imagine ascribing these characterstics to "blackness" or "Jewishness" or "Chineseness"
    That is some pretty moronic and offensive stuff.

    People should focus their ire purely on crap like that and not dilute the attack by overusing the woke label. Because then that ridiculous stuff will just get overlooked.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486

    2022 GOP.


    I think he’s just reflecting on his own life - his mum spent all day ho-ing and he would have been aborted as an impediment to her trade if after Roe v Wade.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,094
    TimS said:

    Thanks to right wing media the definition of “woke” continues to expand and will not stop until it comes to mean “anything that’s in opposition to the Conservative party”.

    Unions: woke
    Big business: way too woke
    Pro-European tendencies: woke
    Teaching foreign languages at school: woke
    The metric system: woke as fuck
    Britain’s capital city, the whole of Surrey and Berkshire and all settlements north of Carlisle: yep, you guessed it, woke

    Less is more. Some things are so patently ridiculous they should be subject to ridicule and attack, and that will just not be as effective if the same term is being used for basically anything.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Thanks to right wing media the definition of “woke” continues to expand and will not stop until it comes to mean “anything that’s in opposition to the Conservative party”.

    Unions: woke
    Big business: way too woke
    Pro-European tendencies: woke
    Teaching foreign languages at school: woke
    The metric system: woke as fuck
    Britain’s capital city, the whole of Surrey and Berkshire and all settlements north of Carlisle: yep, you guessed it, woke

    Here you go, a definitive guide to The Wokeness, for dim lefties who keep making this retarded point, believing it to be original if not interesting


    Woke Religion: A Taxonomy
    By
    @peterboghossian
    and
    @ShellenbergerMD



    https://twitter.com/peterboghossian/status/1458781564964331520?s=20&t=ZKME03Kosfa8ZzI3mJWkww
    Your retort is exactly the issue. The “anti-woke” have decided that everyone not right wing is therefore their caricature of woke.

    Most of us live our lives, try not to go out of our way to offend people for the sake of it, but object to the more puritanical attitudes of the Roundheads that populate parts of the left.

    But our pretty mainstream, normie and dare I say Blairite, views get grouped the Mail and friends as woke. So guess what, we stop listening to them. If you expand your list of enemies to incorporate most people in the country then generally in a democracy you end up losing.

    Everyone banged on in 2016 about how elite metropolitan Britain invented a fantasy globalist paradise that ignored the real voters. Now their opposite make the same mistake.
    You didn't even read it, and if you did you still probably wouldn't get it

    Intelligent lefties like you that do not accept the existential peril of Wokeness are a major part of the problem. You just think it is cranks, social justice warriors, etc. It is waaaaay beyond that
    No, the difference is I’m comfortable with it because I know social progress works through some form of dialectic.

    If I panicked at every bonkers proclamation by the Christian Right (and OK, some woke warriors do because it’s their oxygen) I’d be a quivering wreck.

    I just don’t have the same world view that we are a declining civilisation wrecked by decadence.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    2022 GOP.


    Also, Texas GOP official policy platform is that Trump won the 2020 election.
This discussion has been closed.