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Sunak could be on the way back – politicalbetting.com

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  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291

    Interesting story in the Grauniad that Lynton Crosby is now attending the 8:30 morning meeting in Downing Street https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/17/election-guru-lynton-crosby-attending-pms-morning-meetings

    Election this autumn.

    Not a chance.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    Positive covid test this morning - it's finally caught up with me. Feel like sh*t too.

    Hey ho.

    Bad luck. Hope its mild and look after yourself!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    Interesting story in the Grauniad that Lynton Crosby is now attending the 8:30 morning meeting in Downing Street https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/17/election-guru-lynton-crosby-attending-pms-morning-meetings

    Election this autumn.

    You think the idea is to stoke enough us vs them stories to leverage a win? Personally I think its unlikely, as the majority is still large and if Johnson wants (and isn't removed by his own side) he can go as long as Jan 2025. If the Tories were ahead in the polls I'd see the logic, but other than if they think they can't win the longer it goes on (economy, CoL etc), I just don't buy the argument for throwing power away.

    But we'll see!
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,255

    On the last post's topic: Years ago, I recall reading a study of American voters, and their tolerance for ethical problems in the candidates they supported. It turned out -- assuming I am remembering this correctly -- that a fairly large number of voters saw ethical problems as just another issue, to be weighed against the others. That helps explain the support for candidates like the rascal king: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Michael_Curley

    So a voter might agree that Curley was a crook, but still vote for him, thinking that Curley was right on public housing, taxing rich Protestants, finding a job for a relative, and so on.

    (My apologies for posting this here, but I just now remembered, however vaguely, the study.)

    Let me put a cynical argument

    An unethical PM in the UK system can only enrich himself to a limited amount and that can be monitored and constrained.

    But the characteristics of risk taking and a willingness to bend the rules may be advantageous if used in the service of the country. In fact an “ethical PM” could r d up being completely legged over by others

    So surely we want bad people - appropriately constrained - running the country?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,158
    edited June 2022
    Morning all.

    Oooops:

    Recent video showing Russian Su-25 aircraft flying just above power lines in Belgorod.

    A Russian Su-25 attack aircraft reportedly crashed in Belgorod. According to initial reports, it may have clipped a power line.

    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1537698120380948481

    (May not be the same one afaics)
    (Isn't Belgorod in Hithlum?)
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310

    Positive covid test this morning - it's finally caught up with me. Feel like sh*t too.

    Hey ho.

    Sorry to hear that. Get well soon.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Fishing said:

    Heathener said:

    And re. Maggie ... no not really. Here is her inflation in an easily viewed graph. The early spike was partly because of inflationary pressures in the pipeline, partly because within days of taking office she gave police and armed forces a whopping pay rise, and partly because controlling the wildly out of control PSBR took many months of hard pruning.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22070491

    I'm not an advocate of Margaret Thatcher, even though I consider her the greatest PM of my lifetime by a country mile. She had flaws and she could come across as cruel and inhumane with many of her hardline and intransigent policies. Her belief in no state intervention led to much of British industry going to the wall. She was right to curb union excesses though: the hard Left had crippled this country.

    She was a remarkable PM nonetheless who undoubtedly changed this country and, love or loathe her, Britain went from the sick man of Europe to a prosperous nation.

    She was a giant. The more so compared to the shit-show today.

    She was a callous *****, and the root of the underlying problems we face, specifically a low manufacturing, retail economy selling foreign produce and intangible services, were always unsustainable in the long term. A permanent balance of trade deficit in goods was always folly.

    Selling burgers and Chinese tat to each other with money borrowed on the back of property inflation has been sustained for a lot longer than I anticipated, I don't see that continuing with rising retail inflation and interest rates.
    Completely wrong in a number of ways.

    The decline in manufacturing output long predated 1979, the Conservatives actually raised manufacturing output over their time in office and there was a brief property boom in the late 80s it was new labour under which it had its most dramatic falls and when property price inflation really took off.

    The process of replacing primary industries with hi-tech tertiary manufacturing from foreign owners using social fund grants was also short lived and short sighted. Allowing foreign ownership of UK manufacturing was also a huge error.

    Neither am I giving New Labour a free ride, but that is not my point, which was a reaction to @Heathener 's eulogy to Thatcherism.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,593
    Roger said:

    The crazy thing is that the first one to break cover and denounce Johnson would be a shoo-in. Yesterday one of them said in parliament the Prime Minister was 'a man of complete integrity' and you could time the laughter in minutes. If one of them walks away and says they can't be part of it any longer the job's theirs.

    They fear that the job is whomsoever's it is that immediately follows them out. So no-one goes first.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,255

    Rishi Sunak Approval Rating in Scotland (15 June):

    Approve: 26%
    Disapprove: 46%
    Net: -20%

    What’s the rating by party?

    My guess is that SNP supporters as a group have a high disapproval rating for all English politicians regardless of party.

    If that is the case then It says something about the SNP supporters rather than the politicians
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Positive covid test this morning - it's finally caught up with me. Feel like sh*t too.

    Hey ho.

    Bummer get well soon
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,788
    Mr. Pointer, get well soon.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497
    JohnO said:

    Interesting story in the Grauniad that Lynton Crosby is now attending the 8:30 morning meeting in Downing Street https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/17/election-guru-lynton-crosby-attending-pms-morning-meetings

    Election this autumn.

    Not a chance.
    I don't think it's impossible that there is a Tory/Boris scheme to see if an early election can be planned if both an excuse can be found and the polling improves from its currently remarkably favourable position. (Lab ought to be well ahead by now, and isn't).

    A guess is that a win at T and H (which is not impossible) would be stage one of the plan, which of course can be jettisoned at any time. Such a win, given recent by elections and publicity generally would look like a triumph.

    And of course if Boris calculates that he will chucked out the Steve Bakers of the party by the end of the year if things go on as they are, it's his only chance of survival.

  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,158

    Impressive BBC quizzing of Lavrov:

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1537481465528832002

    Not defending the answers but it's good to see the BBC doing its job of showing us all sides, with (as far as I can tell) a really fluent interviewer asking polite but tough questions.

    On a connected note I’m surprised that Steve Rosenberg is still permitted by Moscow to ply his trade. As you suggest he’s not afraid to ask difficult questions.
    Interesting example of BBC economies.

    That also went out over the radio (BBC WS this morning), and quite regularly now the web page article is the same words as the broadcast commentary.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    mwadams said:

    Roger said:

    The crazy thing is that the first one to break cover and denounce Johnson would be a shoo-in. Yesterday one of them said in parliament the Prime Minister was 'a man of complete integrity' and you could time the laughter in minutes. If one of them walks away and says they can't be part of it any longer the job's theirs.

    They fear that the job is whomsoever's it is that immediately follows them out. So no-one goes first.
    Excessive belief in the sword/crown myth. That has a sample size of what ? Two, three ?!
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,255
    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    There was a Tory grandee early 20th century who gave a serious amount of his own wedge to pay down the national debt. Sunak should make a one off donation of 50m to Our NHS to make up for the non dom savings

    Or he could invite Boris round to his country pad and slowly burn it in front of him to show him how nice it is to have money so Boris realises he needs to quit to start getting rich.

    A much better use of 50m to the country.
    How about just offering Boris a job as a consultant in one of his companies: 12 month contract for £25m?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,913

    Interesting story in the Grauniad that Lynton Crosby is now attending the 8:30 morning meeting in Downing Street https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/17/election-guru-lynton-crosby-attending-pms-morning-meetings

    Election this autumn.

    Must be working on his autobiography. No one would take on Johnson with a career to worry about
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    @Benpointer get better soon. Best of healing vibes.

    The idea of a General Election this year is fanciful nonsense. It would be mass suicide: the Conservative Party equivalent of Jonestown.

    If Johnson tried it then the party would eject him as leader in minutes.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Heathener said:

    If Johnson tried it then the party would eject him as leader in minutes.

    It would be interesting if BoZo called an election then was deposed. I don't see it happening
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931

    Heathener said:

    And re. Maggie ... no not really. Here is her inflation in an easily viewed graph. The early spike was partly because of inflationary pressures in the pipeline, partly because within days of taking office she gave police and armed forces a whopping pay rise, and partly because controlling the wildly out of control PSBR took many months of hard pruning.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22070491

    I'm not an advocate of Margaret Thatcher, even though I consider her the greatest PM of my lifetime by a country mile. She had flaws and she could come across as cruel and inhumane with many of her hardline and intransigent policies. Her belief in no state intervention led to much of British industry going to the wall. She was right to curb union excesses though: the hard Left had crippled this country.

    She was a remarkable PM nonetheless who undoubtedly changed this country and, love or loathe her, Britain went from the sick man of Europe to a prosperous nation.

    She was a giant. The more so compared to the shit-show today.

    She was a callous *****, and the root of the underlying problems we face, specifically a low manufacturing, retail economy selling foreign produce and intangible services, were always unsustainable in the long term. A permanent balance of trade deficit in goods was always folly.

    Selling burgers and Chinese tat to each other with money borrowed on the back of property inflation has been sustained for a lot longer than I anticipated, I don't see that continuing with rising retail inflation and interest rates.
    Whichever party can rebuild our manufacturing industry deserves to win the red wall, and every other coloured wall.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,587
    edited June 2022
    MattW said:

    Morning all.

    Oooops:

    Recent video showing Russian Su-25 aircraft flying just above power lines in Belgorod.

    A Russian Su-25 attack aircraft reportedly crashed in Belgorod. According to initial reports, it may have clipped a power line.

    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1537698120380948481

    (May not be the same one afaics)
    (Isn't Belgorod in Hithlum?)

    Earlier in this war, there were piccies of a Ukrainian ?Flanker? that had a road sign in one of its intakes - it had hit it during flight.

    It turned out that it was an old picture from last year, but it shows that the Ukrainians had been practicing the very low-flying stuff.

    Edit: piccies here:
    https://theaviationist.com/2020/08/29/ukrainian-su-27-flanker-hit-a-road-sign-during-highway-landing-training/
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Heathener said:

    And re. Maggie ... no not really. Here is her inflation in an easily viewed graph. The early spike was partly because of inflationary pressures in the pipeline, partly because within days of taking office she gave police and armed forces a whopping pay rise, and partly because controlling the wildly out of control PSBR took many months of hard pruning.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22070491

    I'm not an advocate of Margaret Thatcher, even though I consider her the greatest PM of my lifetime by a country mile. She had flaws and she could come across as cruel and inhumane with many of her hardline and intransigent policies. Her belief in no state intervention led to much of British industry going to the wall. She was right to curb union excesses though: the hard Left had crippled this country.

    She was a remarkable PM nonetheless who undoubtedly changed this country and, love or loathe her, Britain went from the sick man of Europe to a prosperous nation.

    She was a giant. The more so compared to the shit-show today.

    She was a callous *****, and the root of the underlying problems we face, specifically a low manufacturing, retail economy selling foreign produce and intangible services, were always unsustainable in the long term. A permanent balance of trade deficit in goods was always folly.

    Selling burgers and Chinese tat to each other with money borrowed on the back of property inflation has been sustained for a lot longer than I anticipated, I don't see that continuing with rising retail inflation and interest rates.
    Whichever party can rebuild our manufacturing industry deserves to win the red wall, and every other coloured wall.
    A ship that has long sailed.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,716

    Interesting story in the Grauniad that Lynton Crosby is now attending the 8:30 morning meeting in Downing Street https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/17/election-guru-lynton-crosby-attending-pms-morning-meetings

    Election this autumn.

    Brutal culture war election this autumn.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    MattW said:

    Morning all.

    Oooops:

    Recent video showing Russian Su-25 aircraft flying just above power lines in Belgorod.

    A Russian Su-25 attack aircraft reportedly crashed in Belgorod. According to initial reports, it may have clipped a power line.

    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1537698120380948481

    (May not be the same one afaics)
    (Isn't Belgorod in Hithlum?)

    Earlier in this war, there were piccies of a Ukrainian ?Flanker? that had a road sign in one of its intakes - it had hit it during flight.

    It turned out that it was an old picture from last year, but it shows that the Ukrainians had been practicing the very low-flying stuff.

    Edit: piccies here:
    https://theaviationist.com/2020/08/29/ukrainian-su-27-flanker-hit-a-road-sign-during-highway-landing-training/
    When it hit the sign it was a landing on a motorway to practice dispersed ops not flying low.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Heathener said:

    And re. Maggie ... no not really. Here is her inflation in an easily viewed graph. The early spike was partly because of inflationary pressures in the pipeline, partly because within days of taking office she gave police and armed forces a whopping pay rise, and partly because controlling the wildly out of control PSBR took many months of hard pruning.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22070491

    I'm not an advocate of Margaret Thatcher, even though I consider her the greatest PM of my lifetime by a country mile. She had flaws and she could come across as cruel and inhumane with many of her hardline and intransigent policies. Her belief in no state intervention led to much of British industry going to the wall. She was right to curb union excesses though: the hard Left had crippled this country.

    She was a remarkable PM nonetheless who undoubtedly changed this country and, love or loathe her, Britain went from the sick man of Europe to a prosperous nation.

    She was a giant. The more so compared to the shit-show today.

    She was a callous *****, and the root of the underlying problems we face, specifically a low manufacturing, retail economy selling foreign produce and intangible services, were always unsustainable in the long term. A permanent balance of trade deficit in goods was always folly.

    Selling burgers and Chinese tat to each other with money borrowed on the back of property inflation has been sustained for a lot longer than I anticipated, I don't see that continuing with rising retail inflation and interest rates.
    Whichever party can rebuild our manufacturing industry deserves to win the red wall, and every other coloured wall.
    Wage inflation puts a UK mfring industry even further out of reach every day
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    One for @Dura_Ace

    China Launches First Aircraft Carrier Which Rivals U.S. Navy’s
    https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/06/china-launches-first-aircraft-carrier-which-rivals-u-s-navys/

    Should spice up any defence-of-Taiwan war games if they build a couple more.

    That's a very large target.

    It also makes bugger all difference. China can put fighter planes over Taiwan. Many planes. (China, is after all, not that far away....
    The purpose of large carriers would be to help deny the theatre to the US navy. They would be some way beyond Taiwan.
    How does having a bunch of your fighters on a sinkable runway help?

    In the open sea, carriers are great, because your opponent doesn't know where they are. There's an area the size of France and Germany combined and you know there's a football field sized vessel there somewhere... but where?

    If you stuff them in the Taiwan straits, they'll be found. And they'll be an expensive, sinkable, runway.
    Far more likely than an invasion would be a naval blockade.
    See, for example, Cuba.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,630
    The latest rant about Liz Truss on Russian TV:

    https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1537711934992162817
  • Andy Burnham, king of Labour revival?

    He just supported the strikes, the man is a clown
  • Star quality? In spades? Really?

    Or a thin-skined popinjay whom the opposition will be delighted to fight?

    Rishi Sunak has never been popular. He got credit for giving money away.

    I said this over a year ago.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,593
    Pulpstar said:

    mwadams said:

    Roger said:

    The crazy thing is that the first one to break cover and denounce Johnson would be a shoo-in. Yesterday one of them said in parliament the Prime Minister was 'a man of complete integrity' and you could time the laughter in minutes. If one of them walks away and says they can't be part of it any longer the job's theirs.

    They fear that the job is whomsoever's it is that immediately follows them out. So no-one goes first.
    Excessive belief in the sword/crown myth. That has a sample size of what ? Two, three ?!
    These myths and legends are powerful.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    One for @Dura_Ace

    China Launches First Aircraft Carrier Which Rivals U.S. Navy’s
    https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/06/china-launches-first-aircraft-carrier-which-rivals-u-s-navys/

    Should spice up any defence-of-Taiwan war games if they build a couple more.

    That's a very large target.

    It also makes bugger all difference. China can put fighter planes over Taiwan. Many planes. (China, is after all, not that far away.)

    But invading over 150 miles of ocean, towards a well armed and well equiped country, and where the easy beaches are on the far side of the island...

    Well. That's the tough part.
    If Taiwan gets invaded the PLAN carriers will be used for CAS for the amphibious assault. That's why the USN has 16 LHA/LHD carriers in the 'Gator Navy' over and above the CVN carriers.
    Dura mate, six acronyms? Really?

    USN - United States Navy - I got.
    PLAN - People's Liberation Army Navy...
    Aren't the people liberated yet ?
  • I don't think we're going to be out of the woods in 12 months.

    The economy is fundamentally screwed, built on sand by Tory policies that have not been designed to ensure long-term stability.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,587
    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    One for @Dura_Ace

    China Launches First Aircraft Carrier Which Rivals U.S. Navy’s
    https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/06/china-launches-first-aircraft-carrier-which-rivals-u-s-navys/

    Should spice up any defence-of-Taiwan war games if they build a couple more.

    That's a very large target.

    It also makes bugger all difference. China can put fighter planes over Taiwan. Many planes. (China, is after all, not that far away....
    The purpose of large carriers would be to help deny the theatre to the US navy. They would be some way beyond Taiwan.
    How does having a bunch of your fighters on a sinkable runway help?

    In the open sea, carriers are great, because your opponent doesn't know where they are. There's an area the size of France and Germany combined and you know there's a football field sized vessel there somewhere... but where?

    If you stuff them in the Taiwan straits, they'll be found. And they'll be an expensive, sinkable, runway.
    I may be being naive but I assumed in these days of satellite monitoring no aircraft carrier could ever hide.
    No, carriers are very hard to find and fix because they are fast. In a 90 minute period they can be anywhere in a 6,000 square mile area from their initial position.

    They are also very hard to kill, even once you get past the CSG. In the USS America 2005 SINKEX it took four weeks to sink her!
    Recon satellites also provide patchy coverage, with a certain part of the Earth's surface perhaps only being covered every few hours or days (depending, of course, on the number of satellites in orbit). Their orbits are also (mostly) predictable by the enemy - although many can change orbits, that's very expensive in fuel and each satellite can only do it a limited number of times.

    I believe that's one of the reasons the U2 is still in service: they can be targeted in space and time much better (and often cheaper) than recon satellites.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,896
    Pulpstar said:

    mwadams said:

    Roger said:

    The crazy thing is that the first one to break cover and denounce Johnson would be a shoo-in. Yesterday one of them said in parliament the Prime Minister was 'a man of complete integrity' and you could time the laughter in minutes. If one of them walks away and says they can't be part of it any longer the job's theirs.

    They fear that the job is whomsoever's it is that immediately follows them out. So no-one goes first.
    Excessive belief in the sword/crown myth. That has a sample size of what ? Two, three ?!
    And one of those went the other way because Mrs Thatcher wielded the sword and did win the crown.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,945
    Heathener said:

    @Benpointer get better soon. Best of healing vibes.

    The idea of a General Election this year is fanciful nonsense. It would be mass suicide: the Conservative Party equivalent of Jonestown.

    If Johnson tried it then the party would eject him as leader in minutes.

    They probably know that after this winter's heating bills, and sustained prices above £2 per litre at the pump, they will be out of power for a generation. Plus inflation is going nowhere, and rising interest rates are going to crash the housing market. So better to go to the polls now.

    If they announced a substantial cut / total suspension of fuel duty in August, election in September and won a majority of just 1, they would look like geniuses compared to going to the polls in 2023.

    It's 1997 in reverse. Instead of "things can only get better" it's "things can only get worse."
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Dura_Ace said:

    MattW said:

    Morning all.

    Oooops:

    Recent video showing Russian Su-25 aircraft flying just above power lines in Belgorod.

    A Russian Su-25 attack aircraft reportedly crashed in Belgorod. According to initial reports, it may have clipped a power line.

    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1537698120380948481

    (May not be the same one afaics)
    (Isn't Belgorod in Hithlum?)

    Earlier in this war, there were piccies of a Ukrainian ?Flanker? that had a road sign in one of its intakes - it had hit it during flight.

    It turned out that it was an old picture from last year, but it shows that the Ukrainians had been practicing the very low-flying stuff.

    Edit: piccies here:
    https://theaviationist.com/2020/08/29/ukrainian-su-27-flanker-hit-a-road-sign-during-highway-landing-training/
    When it hit the sign it was a landing on a motorway to practice dispersed ops not flying low.
    Treetop level...
    https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1537059368855912450
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,587
    edited June 2022
    Dura_Ace said:

    MattW said:

    Morning all.

    Oooops:

    Recent video showing Russian Su-25 aircraft flying just above power lines in Belgorod.

    A Russian Su-25 attack aircraft reportedly crashed in Belgorod. According to initial reports, it may have clipped a power line.

    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1537698120380948481

    (May not be the same one afaics)
    (Isn't Belgorod in Hithlum?)

    Earlier in this war, there were piccies of a Ukrainian ?Flanker? that had a road sign in one of its intakes - it had hit it during flight.

    It turned out that it was an old picture from last year, but it shows that the Ukrainians had been practicing the very low-flying stuff.

    Edit: piccies here:
    https://theaviationist.com/2020/08/29/ukrainian-su-27-flanker-hit-a-road-sign-during-highway-landing-training/
    When it hit the sign it was a landing on a motorway to practice dispersed ops not flying low.
    Ah, thanks. Although I could be pernickety and point out that every landing involves flying low. ;)
  • https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1537475010645860353

    'It’s not that I’m not left wing…it’s that we can’t make any change unless we win a general election.'

    @wesstreeting is this week’s guest on Full Disclosure with @mrjamesob.

    Listen to the full interview tomorrow on Global Player.

    It has to be Wes next.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431
    OllyT said:

    Good morning everyone.

    Have we seen the results of last night's council by-elections yet? Britain Elects site seems to be unavailable.

    Tory hold in Rother; Labour holds in Warwick and Sunderland; Tory took the previously independent seat in Wyre.
    Nothing unexpected then; no big changes!
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,255
    Scott_xP said:

    “Can you say without doubt you believe the Prime Minister Boris Johnson is a man who upholds the highest standards of his office?”

    Business Minister Paul Scully “yes”

    Will they never learn
    https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1537682193421574144/video/1


    Simply cannot imagine what it must be like to be a sentient human being and member of this govt. It will undoubtedly be seen as the most catastrophic regime of modern times. A total shitshow of lawbreaking, corruption, ignorance and failure. Imagine knowing you were complicit.
    https://twitter.com/13sarahmurphy/status/1537154669914603520

    Sounds like he is up there with Walpole and Lloyd George…
  • kyf_100 said:

    Heathener said:

    @Benpointer get better soon. Best of healing vibes.

    The idea of a General Election this year is fanciful nonsense. It would be mass suicide: the Conservative Party equivalent of Jonestown.

    If Johnson tried it then the party would eject him as leader in minutes.

    They probably know that after this winter's heating bills, and sustained prices above £2 per litre at the pump, they will be out of power for a generation. Plus inflation is going nowhere, and rising interest rates are going to crash the housing market. So better to go to the polls now.

    If they announced a substantial cut / total suspension of fuel duty in August, election in September and won a majority of just 1, they would look like geniuses compared to going to the polls in 2023.

    It's 1997 in reverse. Instead of "things can only get better" it's "things can only get worse."
    You are one of the most interesting posters on this subject, because I believe you've only recently come around to being on the same level as me, i.e. this is a potential huge disaster for the Tories.

    The fact we come from different political sides shows just how big of a problem the Tories have.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,781
    Fishing said:

    Heathener said:

    And re. Maggie ... no not really. Here is her inflation in an easily viewed graph. The early spike was partly because of inflationary pressures in the pipeline, partly because within days of taking office she gave police and armed forces a whopping pay rise, and partly because controlling the wildly out of control PSBR took many months of hard pruning.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22070491

    I'm not an advocate of Margaret Thatcher, even though I consider her the greatest PM of my lifetime by a country mile. She had flaws and she could come across as cruel and inhumane with many of her hardline and intransigent policies. Her belief in no state intervention led to much of British industry going to the wall. She was right to curb union excesses though: the hard Left had crippled this country.

    She was a remarkable PM nonetheless who undoubtedly changed this country and, love or loathe her, Britain went from the sick man of Europe to a prosperous nation.

    She was a giant. The more so compared to the shit-show today.

    She was a callous *****, and the root of the underlying problems we face, specifically a low manufacturing, retail economy selling foreign produce and intangible services, were always unsustainable in the long term. A permanent balance of trade deficit in goods was always folly.

    Selling burgers and Chinese tat to each other with money borrowed on the back of property inflation has been sustained for a lot longer than I anticipated, I don't see that continuing with rising retail inflation and interest rates.
    Completely wrong in a number of ways.

    The decline in manufacturing output long predated 1979, the Conservatives actually raised manufacturing output over their time in office and there was a brief property boom in the late 80s it was new labour under which it had its most dramatic falls and when property price inflation really took off.

    That's also wrong. Apart from the unusual circumstances of the Covid shock, the biggest fall in manufacturing output occurred in the early 1980s, when output fell by 19% between June 1979 and May 1981. In 2008-09 the peak to trough decline was 12%, by contrast.
    Essentially, manufacturing output grew slowly during the 1970s with a sharp rise and fall mid-decade (the Barber boom and bust). It fell sharply in the early 1980s thanks to a strong pound and high interest rates, then grew rapidly before declining again in the early 90s recession before growing strongly again right up to the GFC, when it fell sharply again. It flat lined in the early years of the coalition government then grew again until early 2019. Since then it has essentially been flat apart from a record 31% decline thanks to Covid.
    In my opinion governments of all stripes have an okay record of trying to nurture UK manufacturing. The only really stupid and counterproductive policy that has been introduced during this time is Brexit.
  • Westminster Voting Intention:

    LAB: 39% (=)
    CON: 33% (=)
    LDM: 13% (+1)
    GRN: 5% (-1)
    SNP: 4% (=)

    Via @techneUK, 15-16 June,
    Changes w/ 9 June.

    BJO please explain
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    Jeremy Corbyn has gone to Paris to campaign for Melenchon's party ahead of the French legislative election runoff.

    https://twitter.com/DenisMacShane/status/1537712915729489920?s=20&t=QshM9MsSIuGue_Fqa1FCTw
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,255
    Nigelb said:

    One for @Dura_Ace

    China Launches First Aircraft Carrier Which Rivals U.S. Navy’s
    https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/06/china-launches-first-aircraft-carrier-which-rivals-u-s-navys/

    Should spice up any defence-of-Taiwan war games if they build a couple more.

    It’s not a blue water carrier though
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,820

    Positive covid test this morning - it's finally caught up with me. Feel like sh*t too.

    Hey ho.

    Rest and drink lots of water. Battling through it is really not the best plan.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    🔸🔨🔹 Have the Tories lost suburban England?

    The collapse of the red wall marked the first chapter of the UK's political realignment after Brexit. Is a 'blue wall' in prosperous south about to be the second?

    My @ftweekend essay from Esher and Walton https://www.ft.com/content/b51ae7bd-2bb5-4514-81d9-bf58f8eea36e
  • Andy Burnham asks about what Keir Starmer stands for.

    Okay.

    Andy Burnham has been

    Blairite

    Brownite

    Milibandite

    Corbynite

    Starmerite

    Anti-Starmerite.

    What does Andy stand for?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited June 2022

    Fishing said:

    Heathener said:

    And re. Maggie ... no not really. Here is her inflation in an easily viewed graph. The early spike was partly because of inflationary pressures in the pipeline, partly because within days of taking office she gave police and armed forces a whopping pay rise, and partly because controlling the wildly out of control PSBR took many months of hard pruning.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22070491

    I'm not an advocate of Margaret Thatcher, even though I consider her the greatest PM of my lifetime by a country mile. She had flaws and she could come across as cruel and inhumane with many of her hardline and intransigent policies. Her belief in no state intervention led to much of British industry going to the wall. She was right to curb union excesses though: the hard Left had crippled this country.

    She was a remarkable PM nonetheless who undoubtedly changed this country and, love or loathe her, Britain went from the sick man of Europe to a prosperous nation.

    She was a giant. The more so compared to the shit-show today.

    She was a callous *****, and the root of the underlying problems we face, specifically a low manufacturing, retail economy selling foreign produce and intangible services, were always unsustainable in the long term. A permanent balance of trade deficit in goods was always folly.

    Selling burgers and Chinese tat to each other with money borrowed on the back of property inflation has been sustained for a lot longer than I anticipated, I don't see that continuing with rising retail inflation and interest rates.
    Completely wrong in a number of ways.

    The decline in manufacturing output long predated 1979, the Conservatives actually raised manufacturing output over their time in office and there was a brief property boom in the late 80s it was new labour under which it had its most dramatic falls and when property price inflation really took off.

    ...In my opinion governments of all stripes have an okay record of trying to nurture UK manufacturing. The only really stupid and counterproductive policy that has been introduced during this time is Brexit.
    That, and many decades of MoD procurement policy.
  • By @LordAshcroft: My focus groups in both by-election battlegrounds find the Tory vote roughly halved on 2019 bit.ly/3baq2Pu

    https://twitter.com/ConHome/status/1537713249478664192

    This is a disaster.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,587

    Andy Burnham asks about what Keir Starmer stands for.

    Okay.

    Andy Burnham has been

    Blairite

    Brownite

    Milibandite

    Corbynite

    Starmerite

    Anti-Starmerite.

    What does Andy stand for?

    Not helping the people at North Staffs hospital, obviously...

    (He should never be anywhere near power after that mess, the little sh*t)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,820

    Andy Burnham asks about what Keir Starmer stands for.

    Okay.

    Andy Burnham has been

    Blairite

    Brownite

    Milibandite

    Corbynite

    Starmerite

    Anti-Starmerite.

    What does Andy stand for?

    A lot of things, apparently.
  • “It’s a bit more serious than partygate, isn’t it,” as a man in the West Yorkshire seat put it. “OK, he was found guilty but the thing that got me was that part of the Tory party was told before he was elected. They knew beforehand but stood by him.”

    “He stood up in the House of Commons and said, ‘I have been informed that no rules were broken at the parties I didn’t go to’. Then you find out that he was at them, which was a blatant lie to everyone in the country. I can’t trust a single word that comes out of Boris’s mouth from now on.”

    You trusted every word before? “No, but I could trust a percentage of them. Now it’s zero trust.”

  • “The fact that he can’t even brush his hair in the morning has really started to grate on me.”

    Some said that, for them, the revelations had tipped the balance against him: “He’s a character, a bit of a geezer in an Eton sort of way, but there’s a fulcrum isn’t there? And I think he’s slightly tipped that fulcrum now. He’s gone from being the loveable rogue to being someone who’s lost credibility”; “The fact that he can’t even brush his hair in the morning has really started to grate on me.”

    And fundamentally, this is why Johnson will not win another election. His act is now a negative.
  • For a few, Starmer would do, but even here the endorsements felt grudging.

    “I’m not particularly keen on Starmer but I think he could get the job done. He’s still very upper class but it’s not the sort of Spitting Image thing we’ve had for the last two years. It’s been like watching the Muppet Show.”

    Starmer has got an image problem

    Upper class? He's the most working class Labour leader has had for years - and people consider him to be upper class and not Johnson. Astonishing.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    On topic: The problem with the Rishi comeback theory is that it's at best a strictly time-limited comeback. As others have pointed out, the economy is in a God-awful mess and it's going to be very painful for most voters; it's hard to see how as Chancellor he doesn't get much of the blame for that, even if in reality there's not a lot he can do about it. What's more, the non-dom status and his ultra-wealthy position may have receded from the public consciousness a bit, but you can bet your bottom dollar (assuming you still have one) that they would be prominent in Labour attack lines and in media comment if he were to become party leader and PM.
  • For a few, Starmer would do, but even here the endorsements felt grudging.

    “I’m not particularly keen on Starmer but I think he could get the job done. He’s still very upper class but it’s not the sort of Spitting Image thing we’ve had for the last two years. It’s been like watching the Muppet Show.”

    “I was frightened of Corbyn, but I’m not frightened of Starmer.”

    Significantly, though, he had managed to neutralise the fear of a Labour government that had worked to the Tories’ advantage. “I was frightened of Corbyn, but I’m not frightened of Starmer,” one man in the Devon seat told us – an important point where the prospect of a Labour-Lib Dem coalition could be a central Tory theme at a general election.
  • https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1537721912062771200

    Labour to scrap pledge to remove tuition fees.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,901
    My election this autumn scenario rationale:

    1. The economic winter is going to brutalise voters
    2. The government's ratings will tank both from the economic winter and their MP's "so what?" sneering response to it.
    3. Tory rebels haven't gone away, nor have the boulders that weigh Big Dog down stopped landing on top of him
    4. History demonstrates that leaders who scrape a confidence win are finished within a year at most

    So why not go this year? Get what support you can from the 2019 coalition of voters who can be revved up to SAVE BREXIT from the remoaners and the judges and the naysayers. Get that done before they get reamed by the CoL disaster. And stymie the rebels by forcing them to toe the line for an election when instead they would be on full attack mode through conference season and beyond.

    Remember that the *only* thing of value to Boris Johnson is Boris Johnson. If he thinks the rebellion is done and people won't care about being cold and hungry then yes carry on. But his advisors I assume are pointing out reality. Hence Crosby reappearing.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Was with a friend last night. Mate of the great Tory (on good terms with Letwin, Raab, Baker you name it).

    Couldn't be more scathing in his assessment of Boris. Has no doubt the people will chuck him out next GE.

    Thinks Rishi blew it with his tax hikes. He thinks they might even go for a remainer over a tax hiker.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677



    I believe that's one of the reasons the U2 is still in service: they can be targeted in space and time much better (and often cheaper) than recon satellites.

    There are also some treaty obligations that require wet film imagery rather than digital so the Dragon Lady still has that mission. The US should just pass some legislation to fuck the treaty off if it is inconvenient.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,901
    kyf_100 said:

    Heathener said:

    @Benpointer get better soon. Best of healing vibes.

    The idea of a General Election this year is fanciful nonsense. It would be mass suicide: the Conservative Party equivalent of Jonestown.

    If Johnson tried it then the party would eject him as leader in minutes.

    They probably know that after this winter's heating bills, and sustained prices above £2 per litre at the pump, they will be out of power for a generation. Plus inflation is going nowhere, and rising interest rates are going to crash the housing market. So better to go to the polls now.

    If they announced a substantial cut / total suspension of fuel duty in August, election in September and won a majority of just 1, they would look like geniuses compared to going to the polls in 2023.

    It's 1997 in reverse. Instead of "things can only get better" it's "things can only get worse."
    ^this. The economy is *fucked*. Like once in a generation 1970s fucked. There is no happy ending for any government who has to carry the can through those events, especially when the government is on boostervision and simply denies there is a problem.

    We are rapidly approaching the political tipping point. Two major and one minor factors to consider:
    BREXIT: People swinging into the "this is shit" camp. But still persuadable that its shit only because remoaners / judges / lefties / the EU are to blame. They won't get away with that line of argument in 2024
    ECONOMY: Fucked. Going to get more fucked before there is any recovery and all I can see is downside in terms of the economic hardships that will need to be endured afterwards
    CULTURE: The minor factor. There is only so long they can stoke division with fear of lady cock and forrin refugees. Rwanda is a wedge issue, so make maximum use of it before it becomes clear the policy won't work and was never going to work.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,820
    It appears that England's 50 over squad have benn taking lessons from the mens football team. 1/1 against the Netherlands in the second over.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Nigelb said:

    One for @Dura_Ace

    China Launches First Aircraft Carrier Which Rivals U.S. Navy’s
    https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/06/china-launches-first-aircraft-carrier-which-rivals-u-s-navys/

    Should spice up any defence-of-Taiwan war games if they build a couple more.

    It’s not a blue water carrier though
    It's about 6,000 km from Pearl Harbour to Guam; nearly another 3,000 from Guam to Taiwan.

    The US needs a blue water navy; China doesn't, yet.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,945

    kyf_100 said:

    Heathener said:

    @Benpointer get better soon. Best of healing vibes.

    The idea of a General Election this year is fanciful nonsense. It would be mass suicide: the Conservative Party equivalent of Jonestown.

    If Johnson tried it then the party would eject him as leader in minutes.

    They probably know that after this winter's heating bills, and sustained prices above £2 per litre at the pump, they will be out of power for a generation. Plus inflation is going nowhere, and rising interest rates are going to crash the housing market. So better to go to the polls now.

    If they announced a substantial cut / total suspension of fuel duty in August, election in September and won a majority of just 1, they would look like geniuses compared to going to the polls in 2023.

    It's 1997 in reverse. Instead of "things can only get better" it's "things can only get worse."
    You are one of the most interesting posters on this subject, because I believe you've only recently come around to being on the same level as me, i.e. this is a potential huge disaster for the Tories.

    The fact we come from different political sides shows just how big of a problem the Tories have.
    Thanks.

    I'm not sure my position is as hardcore libertarian as some on this site, but it is very economically dry while being socially liberal.

    In other words there is absolutely nothing for me in the red meat for the red wall, culture wars crap that the Tories seem to rely on these days.

    For me, it's always about the economy, and giving people as much freedom as possible.

    That means there is often something of a faustian pact between people like me and the Conservative party, i.e. "I will vote for you on the basis that you are going to be better for the economy than the other guy".

    I reckon there are a lot of people out there who aren't natural small-c "conservatives" but who vote Conservative anyway because "you can't trust Labour on the economy."

    Well, I put it to you that the Conservatives are busy shredding what little remains of their reputation on the economy and after failing to control the cost of living crisis, what little reputation they have left will be in tatters.

    I also agree with Max_PB that the Conservatives have run the economy for the benefit of their pensioner client vote to the detriment of working age people, and that needs to change.

    At the next election I will vote for whoever is better on the economy. I'm yet to see what Labour propose, but at the minute it's hard to see them mis-managing things worse than the Conservatives.




  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,958
    edited June 2022

    Rishi Sunak Approval Rating in Scotland (15 June):

    Approve: 26%
    Disapprove: 46%
    Net: -20%

    What’s the rating by party?

    My guess is that SNP supporters as a group have a high disapproval rating for all English politicians regardless of party.

    If that is the case then It says something about the SNP supporters rather than the politicians
    My guess is 'Scottish' Douglas Ross would rank lower than Rishi with supporters of all parties not SCon. Maybe SCons too..
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    DavidL said:

    Positive covid test this morning - it's finally caught up with me. Feel like sh*t too.

    Hey ho.

    Rest and drink lots of water. Battling through it is really not the best plan.
    Thanks David, I'll do that. Helped by the fact that Mrs P. has a bit of sympathy now that she's seen the test result she knows it's not just man flu.

    She's off to buy me a tin of Heinz Tomato Soup - nowadays a terrible ultra-processed food, no doubt, but my childhood comfort blanket for every kind of minor sickness :-)
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402

    My election this autumn scenario rationale:

    1. The economic winter is going to brutalise voters
    2. The government's ratings will tank both from the economic winter and their MP's "so what?" sneering response to it.
    3. Tory rebels haven't gone away, nor have the boulders that weigh Big Dog down stopped landing on top of him
    4. History demonstrates that leaders who scrape a confidence win are finished within a year at most

    So why not go this year? Get what support you can from the 2019 coalition of voters who can be revved up to SAVE BREXIT from the remoaners and the judges and the naysayers. Get that done before they get reamed by the CoL disaster. And stymie the rebels by forcing them to toe the line for an election when instead they would be on full attack mode through conference season and beyond.

    Remember that the *only* thing of value to Boris Johnson is Boris Johnson. If he thinks the rebellion is done and people won't care about being cold and hungry then yes carry on. But his advisors I assume are pointing out reality. Hence Crosby reappearing.

    Crosby is fresh from masterminding a total disaster of a campaign in Australia. He's a one-trick pony without a Plan B, who seems keen to repeat the Coalition playbook.
    Which isn't to say it won't work here.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    One for @Dura_Ace

    China Launches First Aircraft Carrier Which Rivals U.S. Navy’s
    https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/06/china-launches-first-aircraft-carrier-which-rivals-u-s-navys/

    Should spice up any defence-of-Taiwan war games if they build a couple more.

    That's a very large target.

    It also makes bugger all difference. China can put fighter planes over Taiwan. Many planes. (China, is after all, not that far away.)

    But invading over 150 miles of ocean, towards a well armed and well equiped country, and where the easy beaches are on the far side of the island...

    Well. That's the tough part.
    If Taiwan gets invaded the PLAN carriers will be used for CAS for the amphibious assault. That's why the USN has 16 LHA/LHD carriers in the 'Gator Navy' over and above the CVN carriers.
    Dura mate, six acronyms? Really?

    USN - United States Navy - I got.
    PLAN - People's Liberation Army Navy
    CAS - Close Air Support
    LHA - Landing Helicopter Assault ship (though they also operate fixed wing combat types for the aforementioned CAS mission)
    LHD - Landing Helicopter Dock (see LHA)
    CVN - Nuclear powered Ford/Nimitz carrier
    Thank-you!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,896

    My election this autumn scenario rationale:

    1. The economic winter is going to brutalise voters
    2. The government's ratings will tank both from the economic winter and their MP's "so what?" sneering response to it.
    3. Tory rebels haven't gone away, nor have the boulders that weigh Big Dog down stopped landing on top of him
    4. History demonstrates that leaders who scrape a confidence win are finished within a year at most

    So why not go this year? Get what support you can from the 2019 coalition of voters who can be revved up to SAVE BREXIT from the remoaners and the judges and the naysayers. Get that done before they get reamed by the CoL disaster. And stymie the rebels by forcing them to toe the line for an election when instead they would be on full attack mode through conference season and beyond.

    Remember that the *only* thing of value to Boris Johnson is Boris Johnson. If he thinks the rebellion is done and people won't care about being cold and hungry then yes carry on. But his advisors I assume are pointing out reality. Hence Crosby reappearing.

    And Boris is said to favour autumn/winter elections because he thinks Conservative voters are more likely to turn out in bad weather. Thatcher, Major, Cameron and May called late spring, early summer elections.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,820

    DavidL said:

    Positive covid test this morning - it's finally caught up with me. Feel like sh*t too.

    Hey ho.

    Rest and drink lots of water. Battling through it is really not the best plan.
    Thanks David, I'll do that. Helped by the fact that Mrs P. has a bit of sympathy now that she's seen the test result she knows it's not just man flu.

    She's off to buy me a tin of Heinz Tomato Soup - nowadays a terrible ultra-processed food, no doubt, but my childhood comfort blanket for every kind of minor sickness :-)
    Tinned fruit and custard. It should be available on prescription.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,432

    IshmaelZ said:

    There was a Tory grandee early 20th century who gave a serious amount of his own wedge to pay down the national debt. Sunak should make a one off donation of 50m to Our NHS to make up for the non dom savings

    Baldwin? I believe he donated a fifth of his fortune (around £3-4m in today’s money) to a patriotic fund after WWI. He also did it anonymously; the chances of a politician acting virtuously nowadays without vigorously signalling it to the public are minimal.
    My guess of Peter Stringfellow was way off then.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    The Tory candidate in #TivertonandHonitonByElection has produced an 8-page booklet in which she doesn't mention she's a Conservative until page 4. After that, the word Conservative appears just 3 more times. https://twitter.com/neil_merrick/status/1537698465677037574/photo/1
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    edited June 2022
    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    One for @Dura_Ace

    China Launches First Aircraft Carrier Which Rivals U.S. Navy’s
    https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/06/china-launches-first-aircraft-carrier-which-rivals-u-s-navys/

    Should spice up any defence-of-Taiwan war games if they build a couple more.

    That's a very large target.

    It also makes bugger all difference. China can put fighter planes over Taiwan. Many planes. (China, is after all, not that far away....
    The purpose of large carriers would be to help deny the theatre to the US navy. They would be some way beyond Taiwan.
    How does having a bunch of your fighters on a sinkable runway help?

    In the open sea, carriers are great, because your opponent doesn't know where they are. There's an area the size of France and Germany combined and you know there's a football field sized vessel there somewhere... but where?

    If you stuff them in the Taiwan straits, they'll be found. And they'll be an expensive, sinkable, runway.
    I may be being naive but I assumed in these days of satellite monitoring no aircraft carrier could ever hide.
    No, carriers are very hard to find and fix because they are fast. In a 90 minute period they can be anywhere in a 6,000 square mile area from their initial position.

    They are also very hard to kill, even once you get past the CSG. In the USS America 2005 SINKEX it took four weeks to sink her!
    Informative as ever - thanks! What would we do without our irascible PB defence correspondent?!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,260
    Dura_Ace said:



    I believe that's one of the reasons the U2 is still in service: they can be targeted in space and time much better (and often cheaper) than recon satellites.

    There are also some treaty obligations that require wet film imagery rather than digital so the Dragon Lady still has that mission. The US should just pass some legislation to fuck the treaty off if it is inconvenient.
    There is the spontenaity issue - back in the USSR days, the Russians used to give their friends a handy timetable for the passes of the US recon satellites. Which were quite few in number, really.

    With the advent of multiple civilian photographic satellite constellations - soon to be joined by radar ones - we are entering an era of *constant* global surveillance. We aren't there yet, by a long road, but it is not far off.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Positive covid test this morning - it's finally caught up with me. Feel like sh*t too.

    Hey ho.

    Rest and drink lots of water. Battling through it is really not the best plan.
    Thanks David, I'll do that. Helped by the fact that Mrs P. has a bit of sympathy now that she's seen the test result she knows it's not just man flu.

    She's off to buy me a tin of Heinz Tomato Soup - nowadays a terrible ultra-processed food, no doubt, but my childhood comfort blanket for every kind of minor sickness :-)
    Tinned fruit and custard. It should be available on prescription.
    Lol! Each to their own nursery food, I guess.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    DavidL said:

    Positive covid test this morning - it's finally caught up with me. Feel like sh*t too.

    Hey ho.

    Rest and drink lots of water. Battling through it is really not the best plan.
    Thanks David, I'll do that. Helped by the fact that Mrs P. has a bit of sympathy now that she's seen the test result she knows it's not just man flu.

    She's off to buy me a tin of Heinz Tomato Soup - nowadays a terrible ultra-processed food, no doubt, but my childhood comfort blanket for every kind of minor sickness :-)
    Hope you get better soon. I had it last week. Two days of feeling a bit crap then fine so not to worry too much.

    It didn't seem to matter if I rested or not. It's just a case of the virus working through your body. Was the faintest of faint lines for a while (days 5-7) but cleared up completely day 8.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,896
    dixiedean said:

    My election this autumn scenario rationale:

    1. The economic winter is going to brutalise voters
    2. The government's ratings will tank both from the economic winter and their MP's "so what?" sneering response to it.
    3. Tory rebels haven't gone away, nor have the boulders that weigh Big Dog down stopped landing on top of him
    4. History demonstrates that leaders who scrape a confidence win are finished within a year at most

    So why not go this year? Get what support you can from the 2019 coalition of voters who can be revved up to SAVE BREXIT from the remoaners and the judges and the naysayers. Get that done before they get reamed by the CoL disaster. And stymie the rebels by forcing them to toe the line for an election when instead they would be on full attack mode through conference season and beyond.

    Remember that the *only* thing of value to Boris Johnson is Boris Johnson. If he thinks the rebellion is done and people won't care about being cold and hungry then yes carry on. But his advisors I assume are pointing out reality. Hence Crosby reappearing.

    Crosby is fresh from masterminding a total disaster of a campaign in Australia. He's a one-trick pony without a Plan B, who seems keen to repeat the Coalition playbook.
    Which isn't to say it won't work here.
    Crosby's campaign for Theresa May lost her majority even to the political non-colossus that was Jeremy Corbyn.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    I don't think we're going to be out of the woods in 12 months.

    The economy is fundamentally screwed, built on sand by Tory policies that have not been designed to ensure long-term stability.

    Yeah, it was called lockdown and furlough funded by printing trillions. It's a bit late to start complaining now.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    edited June 2022



    So why not go this year? Get what support you can from the 2019 coalition of voters who can be revved up to SAVE BREXIT from the remoaners and the judges and the naysayers. Get that done before they get reamed by the CoL disaster. And stymie the rebels by forcing them to toe the line for an election when instead they would be on full attack mode through conference season and beyond.

    When you put it like it that, it does actually make sense. It would reset Johnson's tenure in a way that various tory fuckpieces saying "Draw a line under it" and "Move on" on Sky News just can't.

    However, it would require vision, courage and strong leadership to do it. These are not qualities being evidenced to excess by Johnson.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,958

    IshmaelZ said:

    There was a Tory grandee early 20th century who gave a serious amount of his own wedge to pay down the national debt. Sunak should make a one off donation of 50m to Our NHS to make up for the non dom savings

    Baldwin? I believe he donated a fifth of his fortune (around £3-4m in today’s money) to a patriotic fund after WWI. He also did it anonymously; the chances of a politician acting virtuously nowadays without vigorously signalling it to the public are minimal.
    My guess of Peter Stringfellow was way off then.
    Though both liked to wear a leopardskin thong I believe..
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,593
    Nigelb said:


    kyf_100 said:

    Heathener said:

    @Benpointer get better soon. Best of healing vibes.

    The idea of a General Election this year is fanciful nonsense. It would be mass suicide: the Conservative Party equivalent of Jonestown.

    If Johnson tried it then the party would eject him as leader in minutes.

    They probably know that after this winter's heating bills, and sustained prices above £2 per litre at the pump, they will be out of power for a generation. Plus inflation is going nowhere, and rising interest rates are going to crash the housing market. So better to go to the polls now.

    If they announced a substantial cut / total suspension of fuel duty in August, election in September and won a majority of just 1, they would look like geniuses compared to going to the polls in 2023.

    It's 1997 in reverse. Instead of "things can only get better" it's "things can only get worse."
    ^this. The economy is *fucked*. Like once in a generation 1970s fucked. There is no happy ending for any government who has to carry the can through those events, especially when the government is on boostervision and simply denies there is a problem.

    We are rapidly approaching the political tipping point. Two major and one minor factors to consider:
    BREXIT: People swinging into the "this is shit" camp. But still persuadable that its shit only because remoaners / judges / lefties / the EU are to blame. They won't get away with that line of argument in 2024
    ECONOMY: Fucked. Going to get more fucked before there is any recovery and all I can see is downside in terms of the economic hardships that will need to be endured afterwards
    CULTURE: The minor factor. There is only so long they can stoke division with fear of lady cock and forrin refugees. Rwanda is a wedge issue, so make maximum use of it before it becomes clear the policy won't work and was never going to work.
    On the latter point, this did not get much play yesterday.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jun/16/britons-not-bitterly-polarised-over-trans-equality-research-finds

    Perhaps it should.
    Indeed. I have often said that "culture war" issues usually represent "lost arguments"; they are a wedge for a small minority at either end of the spectrum when the vast middle have already taken a "live and let live" stance (which is, I think, the majority default in this country).
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Feels like a lot of traditional Tory support will sit the by-election out in Tiverton, handing the seat to the LDs.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,249
    DavidL said:

    It appears that England's 50 over squad have benn taking lessons from the mens football team. 1/1 against the Netherlands in the second over.

    I first read that as England's over 50 squad and started thinking Botham, Gooch, Gower ... happy days are here again.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Brexiters bemoan the wrong type of brexit. But who is there that the membership could choose to deliver the "right" brexit and that hasn't been involved in the brexit we've got.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    Applicant said:

    I don't think we're going to be out of the woods in 12 months.

    The economy is fundamentally screwed, built on sand by Tory policies that have not been designed to ensure long-term stability.

    Yeah, it was called lockdown and furlough funded by printing trillions. It's a bit late to start complaining now.
    And, indeed, lockdowns where cheered on CHB. Indeed, he demanded them frequently!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    Nigelb said:


    kyf_100 said:

    Heathener said:

    @Benpointer get better soon. Best of healing vibes.

    The idea of a General Election this year is fanciful nonsense. It would be mass suicide: the Conservative Party equivalent of Jonestown.

    If Johnson tried it then the party would eject him as leader in minutes.

    They probably know that after this winter's heating bills, and sustained prices above £2 per litre at the pump, they will be out of power for a generation. Plus inflation is going nowhere, and rising interest rates are going to crash the housing market. So better to go to the polls now.

    If they announced a substantial cut / total suspension of fuel duty in August, election in September and won a majority of just 1, they would look like geniuses compared to going to the polls in 2023.

    It's 1997 in reverse. Instead of "things can only get better" it's "things can only get worse."
    ^this. The economy is *fucked*. Like once in a generation 1970s fucked. There is no happy ending for any government who has to carry the can through those events, especially when the government is on boostervision and simply denies there is a problem.

    We are rapidly approaching the political tipping point. Two major and one minor factors to consider:
    BREXIT: People swinging into the "this is shit" camp. But still persuadable that its shit only because remoaners / judges / lefties / the EU are to blame. They won't get away with that line of argument in 2024
    ECONOMY: Fucked. Going to get more fucked before there is any recovery and all I can see is downside in terms of the economic hardships that will need to be endured afterwards
    CULTURE: The minor factor. There is only so long they can stoke division with fear of lady cock and forrin refugees. Rwanda is a wedge issue, so make maximum use of it before it becomes clear the policy won't work and was never going to work.
    On the latter point, this did not get much play yesterday.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jun/16/britons-not-bitterly-polarised-over-trans-equality-research-finds

    Perhaps it should.
    Interesting study. I am boringly in the majority on this. Interesting too that sport was seen as a legitimate exception even by people favouring inclusion by other means.

    This was quite telling too:

    "the report emphasised that people did not primarily see these issues “through a narrow lens of gender identity”, with discussion broadening out to the fact most people do not like communal changing rooms per se, while the minority who were less comfortable with unisex bathrooms were more worried that men tend to be less hygienic than women in communal toilets, rather than about safety."
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    Positive covid test this morning - it's finally caught up with me. Feel like sh*t too.

    Hey ho.

    Rest and drink lots of water. Battling through it is really not the best plan.
    Thanks David, I'll do that. Helped by the fact that Mrs P. has a bit of sympathy now that she's seen the test result she knows it's not just man flu.

    She's off to buy me a tin of Heinz Tomato Soup - nowadays a terrible ultra-processed food, no doubt, but my childhood comfort blanket for every kind of minor sickness :-)
    Hope you get better soon. I had it last week. Two days of feeling a bit crap then fine so not to worry too much.

    It didn't seem to matter if I rested or not. It's just a case of the virus working through your body. Was the faintest of faint lines for a while (days 5-7) but cleared up completely day 8.
    Interesting, thanks.

    I had a negative test on Tuesday, even though I felt crap. The test I did this morning though left a very deep bold T line - no doubts at all. And no surprise tbh.

    I don't need to work so I am just putting my feet up and enjoying the weather. Could be a lot worse.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,901
    Dura_Ace said:



    So why not go this year? Get what support you can from the 2019 coalition of voters who can be revved up to SAVE BREXIT from the remoaners and the judges and the naysayers. Get that done before they get reamed by the CoL disaster. And stymie the rebels by forcing them to toe the line for an election when instead they would be on full attack mode through conference season and beyond.

    When you put it like it that, it does actually make sense. It would reset Johnson's tenure in a way that various tory fuckpieces saying "Draw a line under it" and "Move on" on Sky News just can't.

    However, it would require vision, courage and strong leadership to do it. These are not qualities being evidenced to excess by Johnson.
    Alternately it could require cowardice, bravado, absurd self-confidence. Which he has in spades.

    "If I wait they may force me out. But out there in the country I am a Golden God. So why not Get Brexit Done again, show everyone how loveable I am again and show the naysayers who the Big Dog really is".

    With Crosby saying all this in his ear because if there is an election Crosby gets AUS$$$.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited June 2022
    Applicant said:

    I don't think we're going to be out of the woods in 12 months.

    The economy is fundamentally screwed, built on sand by Tory policies that have not been designed to ensure long-term stability.

    Yeah, it was called lockdown and furlough funded by printing trillions. It's a bit late to start complaining now.
    Not to say others wouldn't have done the same but the sheer scale of fraud and jobs for the boys in for example PPE procurement was staggering. Set up a company on Monday and receive a £100m contract on Tuesday. And then deliver nothing or sub standard products which are likely still sitting in a warehouse somewhere.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,838
    edited June 2022
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Positive covid test this morning - it's finally caught up with me. Feel like sh*t too.

    Hey ho.

    Rest and drink lots of water. Battling through it is really not the best plan.
    Thanks David, I'll do that. Helped by the fact that Mrs P. has a bit of sympathy now that she's seen the test result she knows it's not just man flu.

    She's off to buy me a tin of Heinz Tomato Soup - nowadays a terrible ultra-processed food, no doubt, but my childhood comfort blanket for every kind of minor sickness :-)
    Tinned fruit and custard. It should be available on prescription.
    Stovies, pickled beetroot and cold roast lamb for me.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    Feels like a lot of traditional Tory support will sit the by-election out in Tiverton, handing the seat to the LDs.
    I don't see that. The Tory core vote in the Shires have a consistently high turnout. They may not vote Tory, but they will vote.

    The newer Tory vote in purple wall areas may be more inclined to abstention.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931

    Andy Burnham asks about what Keir Starmer stands for.

    Okay.

    Andy Burnham has been

    Blairite

    Brownite

    Milibandite

    Corbynite

    Starmerite

    Anti-Starmerite.

    What does Andy stand for?

    Being a Burnhamite.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:


    kyf_100 said:

    Heathener said:

    @Benpointer get better soon. Best of healing vibes.

    The idea of a General Election this year is fanciful nonsense. It would be mass suicide: the Conservative Party equivalent of Jonestown.

    If Johnson tried it then the party would eject him as leader in minutes.

    They probably know that after this winter's heating bills, and sustained prices above £2 per litre at the pump, they will be out of power for a generation. Plus inflation is going nowhere, and rising interest rates are going to crash the housing market. So better to go to the polls now.

    If they announced a substantial cut / total suspension of fuel duty in August, election in September and won a majority of just 1, they would look like geniuses compared to going to the polls in 2023.

    It's 1997 in reverse. Instead of "things can only get better" it's "things can only get worse."
    ^this. The economy is *fucked*. Like once in a generation 1970s fucked. There is no happy ending for any government who has to carry the can through those events, especially when the government is on boostervision and simply denies there is a problem.

    We are rapidly approaching the political tipping point. Two major and one minor factors to consider:
    BREXIT: People swinging into the "this is shit" camp. But still persuadable that its shit only because remoaners / judges / lefties / the EU are to blame. They won't get away with that line of argument in 2024
    ECONOMY: Fucked. Going to get more fucked before there is any recovery and all I can see is downside in terms of the economic hardships that will need to be endured afterwards
    CULTURE: The minor factor. There is only so long they can stoke division with fear of lady cock and forrin refugees. Rwanda is a wedge issue, so make maximum use of it before it becomes clear the policy won't work and was never going to work.
    On the latter point, this did not get much play yesterday.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jun/16/britons-not-bitterly-polarised-over-trans-equality-research-finds

    Perhaps it should.
    Interesting study. I am boringly in the majority on this. Interesting too that sport was seen as a legitimate exception even by people favouring inclusion by other means.

    This was quite telling too:

    "the report emphasised that people did not primarily see these issues “through a narrow lens of gender identity”, with discussion broadening out to the fact most people do not like communal changing rooms per se, while the minority who were less comfortable with unisex bathrooms were more worried that men tend to be less hygienic than women in communal toilets, rather than about safety."
    And more generally, would that we had a government more interested in practical solutions than cultural conflict.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Scott_xP said:
    Are we finally shot of the eBay Witcher or is there another endless round of appeals?
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931
    Carnyx said:



    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Positive covid test this morning - it's finally caught up with me. Feel like sh*t too.

    Hey ho.

    Rest and drink lots of water. Battling through it is really not the best plan.
    Thanks David, I'll do that. Helped by the fact that Mrs P. has a bit of sympathy now that she's seen the test result she knows it's not just man flu.

    She's off to buy me a tin of Heinz Tomato Soup - nowadays a terrible ultra-processed food, no doubt, but my childhood comfort blanket for every kind of minor sickness :-)
    Tinned fruit and custard. It should be available on prescription.
    Stovies, pickled beetroot and cold roast lamb for me.
    Mince and tatties, with or without skirlie.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,838
    edited June 2022

    Rishi Sunak Approval Rating in Scotland (15 June):

    Approve: 26%
    Disapprove: 46%
    Net: -20%

    What’s the rating by party?

    My guess is that SNP supporters as a group have a high disapproval rating for all English politicians regardless of party.

    If that is the case then It says something about the SNP supporters rather than the politicians
    My guess is 'Scottish' Douglas Ross would rank lower than Rishi with supporters of all parties not SCon. Maybe SCons too..
    I like the way PBTories like to claim that being anti-Tory in Scotland, or more generally to be against having your poility and its policies overridden by a different polity, must be anti-English racism when it would be just the same as if it were the Vogons in power in No. 10.

    The Tories tried claiming that once, back in I think November 2013 - you could tell it was delbierate because it was rolled out across all the media in the orchestrated way that they had. They reverse ferreted very quickly indeed, because someone must have realised the implicit claim which they were making about themselves.

This discussion has been closed.