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The Yorkshire Party for 3rd place in Wakefield? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited June 20 in General
imageThe Yorkshire Party for 3rd place in Wakefield? – politicalbetting.com

Betting on the Wakefield by-election has been a bit boring because it is blindingly obvious that LAB is going to retake the seat that it lost at GE2019 and the current odds of 98% are simply not tempting.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 45,383
    That sounds like an excellent value bet: I can see lots of disaffected Conservatives voting YP, and (as you say) the LDs, Reform, etc., are all likely to lose their deposits.

    Which bookmaker offers this tasty price?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,156
    Good morning all.

    It does indeed look like value.

    I still reckon punters are over-estimating the Cons chances at Tiverton & Honiton and underestimating the visceral anger against Johnson across the south. If the LibDems do take it, it will send shockwaves across the political landscape. It isn't about whether the markets have factored in a LibDem win, it's because by all accounts this should not be fertile LibDem territory. The tories are throwing a lot at the constituency. I hope they get a kicking that will hasten Johnson's exit.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,216
    rcs1000 said:

    That sounds like an excellent value bet: I can see lots of disaffected Conservatives voting YP, and (as you say) the LDs, Reform, etc., are all likely to lose their deposits.

    Which bookmaker offers this tasty price?

    Smarkets

    https://smarkets.com/event/42756835/politics/uk/by-elections/2022/06/23/21-00/wakefield-by-election-third-place
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,007
    @Leon On the other thing, you were right the first time:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/06/13/head-nasa-taking-ufos-seriously/

    Bill Nelson, the former space shuttle astronaut and US senator, said he had personally talked to two Navy pilots who saw numerous flying objects in 2004, and had turned over the investigation to Nasa’s top scientist.

    “We're taking this very seriously,” he told a briefing of science journalists.

    “I've talked to the Navy pilots that know that they saw something back in 2004. They tracked it on their radar off the Southern California coast, over the Pacific.

    “Since then hundreds of objects have been spotted and a couple of them were explained, they may be balloons, but most of them are unexplained.

    “So I’ve asked Nasa, and it will be announced within a few days, to approach this subject from a scientific standpoint, since we are a scientific research organisation. In about eight months, they’re going to report.”

    Asked whether he thought the sightings could be enemy aircraft, the Nasa administrator added: “Do I think it's an enemy? I hope it isn't, because the Navy pilots would describe it as: 'It's here and then it's over there. With no time in between.'

    “And so my simple answer is I don't know. And that's why I've asked our scientists to see if they've got any explanation.”
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,156
    edited June 14
    rcs1000 said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning all.

    It does indeed look like value.

    I still reckon punters are over-estimating the Cons chances at Tiverton & Honiton and underestimating the visceral anger against Johnson across the south. If the LibDems do take it, it will send shockwaves across the political landscape. It isn't about whether the markets have factored in a LibDem win, it's because by all accounts this should not be fertile LibDem territory. The tories are throwing a lot at the constituency. I hope they get a kicking that will hasten Johnson's exit.

    It will be a fillip for the libdems in the South West, and will help keep them in the spotlight... But other than that - like pretty much every other libdem gain of the last thirty years - it means little.
    The last time the LibDems scored a massive by-election victory of a comparable nature would be 32 years ago at Eastbourne in October 1990.

    That certainly did not 'mean little'. As your father is fond of reminding us, it directly led to the removal of Mrs Thatcher as Prime Minister the following month.

    IF the LibDems do manage to win Tiverton & Honiton it will not 'mean little'. It will:

    1. Send a shockwave across southern Conservatives. The LibDems are making inroads in places like Surrey and a number of tory MPs are in danger of losing their seats

    AND

    2. Hasten the removal of Boris Johnson

    Jim Callaghan and Margaret Thatcher were both abroad at the crucial moments, like yourself and Sandpit who liked your post. This is not a criticism (I have lived abroad often) but to suggest that the mood in the country is uglier than you might you realise from distant shores.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,156
    edited June 14
    I also mention something more anecfactual.

    I am fond of talking about the LibDem chances because they are the ones best represented in my area for defeating the Conservatives, despite the fact that I would naturally vote Labour if they had a better chance. It is a long time since I felt such an anti-tory force within me and I believe this to be truer now than at anytime since 1992-7, not just for me but for many others..

    I believe that pollsters may be chronically under-estimating organic tactical voting and that's bad news for the Conservatives.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,156
    edited June 14
    I also mention something more anecfactual.

    I am fond of talking about the LibDem chances because they are the ones best represented in my area for defeating the Conservatives, despite the fact that I would naturally vote Labour if they had a better chance. It is a long time since I felt such an anti-tory force within me and I believe this to be truer now than at anytime since 1992-7, not just for me but for many others.

    I believe that pollsters may be chronically under-estimating organic tactical voting and that's bad news for the Conservatives.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,156
    Sorry. No idea why that message has appeared twice.

    Perhaps the universe wishes us to listen.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 45,383
    Heathener said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning all.

    It does indeed look like value.

    I still reckon punters are over-estimating the Cons chances at Tiverton & Honiton and underestimating the visceral anger against Johnson across the south. If the LibDems do take it, it will send shockwaves across the political landscape. It isn't about whether the markets have factored in a LibDem win, it's because by all accounts this should not be fertile LibDem territory. The tories are throwing a lot at the constituency. I hope they get a kicking that will hasten Johnson's exit.

    It will be a fillip for the libdems in the South West, and will help keep them in the spotlight... But other than that - like pretty much every other libdem gain of the last thirty years - it means little.
    The last time the LibDems scored a massive by-election victory of a comparable nature would be 32 years ago at Eastbourne in October 1990.

    That certainly did not 'mean little'. As your father is fond of reminding us, it directly led to the removal of Mrs Thatcher as Prime Minister the following month.

    IF the LibDems do manage to win Tiverton & Honiton it will not 'mean little'. It will:

    1. Send a shockwave across southern Conservatives. The LibDems are making inroads in places like Surrey and a number of tory MPs are in danger of losing their seats

    AND

    2. Hasten the removal of Boris Johnson

    Jim Callaghan and Margaret Thatcher were both abroad at the crucial moments, like yourself and Sandpit who liked your post. This is not a criticism (I have lived abroad often) but to suggest that the mood in the country is uglier than you might you realise from distant shores.
    The Libdems recently won a by-election in North Shropshire.

    On an absolutely massive swing.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,895
    edited June 14
    The LibDems clearly have an opportunity to recover. I wonder if Davey will seize the opportunity this time, they’ve had two previous recoveries since 2015 and mucked up them both.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 29,790
    Yet more evidence that Google's 'Don't be evil' motto was so much PR b/s:

    https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/06/google-to-pay-118-million-after-being-accused-of-underpaying-15500-women/

    IMO lots of question arise from this settlement.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,498
    On topic - seems like a sensible punt

    Off-topic - a non-sensible punt seems to ensure that NI is heading for a sticky mess. With 54 MLAs - which must include some unionists - objecting to the new "Fuck the Bill" Bill and most of the unionists objecting because it doesn't go far enough, we're heading for another election later in the year.

    What happens to the peace process when the bowler hat and sash twats refuse to participate in the assembly? Whilst consent was at the heart of the structure, they didn't allow for one part of one community refusing to consent unless it got its own way.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,156
    edited June 14
    rcs1000 said:

    Heathener said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning all.

    It does indeed look like value.

    I still reckon punters are over-estimating the Cons chances at Tiverton & Honiton and underestimating the visceral anger against Johnson across the south. If the LibDems do take it, it will send shockwaves across the political landscape. It isn't about whether the markets have factored in a LibDem win, it's because by all accounts this should not be fertile LibDem territory. The tories are throwing a lot at the constituency. I hope they get a kicking that will hasten Johnson's exit.

    It will be a fillip for the libdems in the South West, and will help keep them in the spotlight... But other than that - like pretty much every other libdem gain of the last thirty years - it means little.
    The last time the LibDems scored a massive by-election victory of a comparable nature would be 32 years ago at Eastbourne in October 1990.

    That certainly did not 'mean little'. As your father is fond of reminding us, it directly led to the removal of Mrs Thatcher as Prime Minister the following month.

    IF the LibDems do manage to win Tiverton & Honiton it will not 'mean little'. It will:

    1. Send a shockwave across southern Conservatives. The LibDems are making inroads in places like Surrey and a number of tory MPs are in danger of losing their seats

    AND

    2. Hasten the removal of Boris Johnson

    Jim Callaghan and Margaret Thatcher were both abroad at the crucial moments, like yourself and Sandpit who liked your post. This is not a criticism (I have lived abroad often) but to suggest that the mood in the country is uglier than you might you realise from distant shores.
    The Libdems recently won a by-election in North Shropshire.

    On an absolutely massive swing.

    You're right and Chesham & Amersham too, of course which was much more remain in 2019.

    But if Tiverton & Honiton goes LibDem then no Conservative seat is safe and it would be the double whammy: the left-right sucker punch on the same day. The red wall to Labour, the blue south to the LibDems.

    I don't believe Johnson will survive if both seats fall. Which is why Johnson's tories are piling efforts into saving it.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,036
    Unemployment down again. FFS, put up interest rates!
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,156
    edited June 14
    tlg86 said:

    Unemployment down again.

    You mean up, surely? The jobless rate unexpectedly rose to 3.8% despite record numbers in employment.

    https://news.sky.com/story/cost-of-living-jobless-rate-hits-1973-low-as-record-numbers-seek-shield-by-entering-work-12633520
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 45,383
    tlg86 said:

    Unemployment down again. FFS, put up interest rates!

    Unemployment is a lagging indicator. The UK economy contracted last month.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,156
    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Unemployment down again. FFS, put up interest rates!

    Unemployment is a lagging indicator. The UK economy contracted last month.
    Indeed but anyway the jobless figure to April didn't fall. It rose.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 45,383
    Jonathan said:

    The LibDems clearly have an opportunity to recover. I wonder if Davey will seize the opportunity this time, they’ve had two previous recoveries since 2015 and mucked up them both.

    Two previous recoveries? I count one, when the world went to hell in a hand basket in 2019.

    When was the other?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 39,027
    edited June 14
    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Unemployment down again. FFS, put up interest rates!

    Unemployment is a lagging indicator. The UK economy contracted last month.
    There was a huge anomaly in the stats last month, which was the ending of the Covid test and trace system. Worth 0.5% of GDP(!) and presumably a fair number of jobs which have now ended. Enough to turn the negative GDP number positive.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,498
    Also off-topic. Sir Tony Blair yesterday invested as a Knight of the Garter. Its genuinely absurd that in 2022 we still have all this medieval bollocks. Can we not create a system of honours that is not based on a cadre of medieval soldiers who committed acts of savagery?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,895
    rcs1000 said:

    Jonathan said:

    The LibDems clearly have an opportunity to recover. I wonder if Davey will seize the opportunity this time, they’ve had two previous recoveries since 2015 and mucked up them both.

    Two previous recoveries? I count one, when the world went to hell in a hand basket in 2019.

    When was the other?
    The LDs got above 10% in the run up to the 2017 election.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,156
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Unemployment down again. FFS, put up interest rates!

    Unemployment is a lagging indicator. The UK economy contracted last month.
    Enough to turn the negative GDP number positive.
    Fancy a wager on that? You're one of the only people who think sunlit uplands are a month away. We're slumping into recession.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/13/no-new-tax-cuts-inflation-falls-suggests-boris-johnson/

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 58,561
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Pioneers, the Order of the Garter was founded by Edward III, a king who was generally good and chivalrous.

    If your argument is that the 14th century was less lovely than today, then I agree. It's rather harsh, however, to judge men born into that era by modern norms. How would you like to be judged according to the moral principles of the 28th century?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,156
    edited June 14

    Can we not create a system of honours

    Even better, let's do away with all honours. We cannot take them with us when we leave this world.

    More recognition of hubris and humility would be a good thing. The only honour should be paradoxically reserved for those who shun it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 39,027
    Bitcoin down to just over $21k overnight, although it’s rallied a bit in the last couple of hours.

    Etherium was also down 20% yesterday, actually fell more than BTC.

    Tether at 0.9987 - that’s where today’s focus might be, as people wake up to the fact that there’s nothing actually behind it.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,895
    Heathener said:

    Can we not create a system of honours

    Even better, let's do away with all honours. We cannot take them with us when we leave this world.

    More recognition of hubris and humility would be a good thing. The only honour should be paradoxically reserved for those who shun it.
    Go the other way? Give an MBE to anyone who pays and extra 10% in tax for 10years. Do that for 30 years get a knighthood. Doesn’t matter how much you pay, just more than he minimum. It goes into a national improvement fund for essential infrastructure and good works. Available to all.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 2,763
    Heathener said:

    tlg86 said:

    Unemployment down again.

    You mean up, surely? The jobless rate unexpectedly rose to 3.8% despite record numbers in employment.

    https://news.sky.com/story/cost-of-living-jobless-rate-hits-1973-low-as-record-numbers-seek-shield-by-entering-work-12633520
    There are 1.3 million job vacancies, if you want a job you can have one. An incredible stat.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 36,851
    Heathener said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Unemployment down again. FFS, put up interest rates!

    Unemployment is a lagging indicator. The UK economy contracted last month.
    Enough to turn the negative GDP number positive.
    Fancy a wager on that? You're one of the only people who think sunlit uplands are a month away. We're slumping into recession.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/13/no-new-tax-cuts-inflation-falls-suggests-boris-johnson/

    He talks bollox from afar on a regular basis, has no clue what is going on in UK other than what he reads in the daily mail
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,156
    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Can we not create a system of honours

    Even better, let's do away with all honours. We cannot take them with us when we leave this world.

    More recognition of hubris and humility would be a good thing. The only honour should be paradoxically reserved for those who shun it.
    Go the other way? Give an MBE to anyone who pays and extra 10% in tax for 10years. Do that for 30 years get a knighthood. Doesn’t matter how much you pay, just more than he minimum. It goes into a national improvement fund for essential infrastructure and good works. Available to all.
    :smiley:

    An amusing idea but one which I'm afraid revolts me. The idea that we should honour anyone based on their spending power is ... well ... cash for honours.

    And the 'BE' bit really pisses me off. What the hell is the 'British Empire' but a celebration of a corrupt, violent, abusive and enslaving colonialism which crushed so many peoples.

    A real 'honours' system would be reparations to all those we subjugated.

    And with that thought I bid you all a happy day.

    x
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,498

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Pioneers, the Order of the Garter was founded by Edward III, a king who was generally good and chivalrous.

    If your argument is that the 14th century was less lovely than today, then I agree. It's rather harsh, however, to judge men born into that era by modern norms. How would you like to be judged according to the moral principles of the 28th century?

    You can only judge people according to the ethics of their era. So my objection to the founder knights of the garter is specifically that we still have their order as the highest rung of an order of chivalry which seems like a massive anachronism.

    Even when we do nice things and honour people who have made a difference - Captain Tom Moore as an example - it only serves to demonstrate just how punitive the system is. Captain Moore was knighted, but made a very basic knight. With 10 ranks in the Order of Chivalry below him. Many of the people in those ranks get their gong because of who they are or the job they did, rather than because of what they have done. So Sir Tom no post-nominals because you're not worth it was a snub.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 17,035

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Pioneers, the Order of the Garter was founded by Edward III, a king who was generally good and chivalrous.

    If your argument is that the 14th century was less lovely than today, then I agree. It's rather harsh, however, to judge men born into that era by modern norms. How would you like to be judged according to the moral principles of the 28th century?

    You can only judge people according to the ethics of their era. So my objection to the founder knights of the garter is specifically that we still have their order as the highest rung of an order of chivalry which seems like a massive anachronism.

    Even when we do nice things and honour people who have made a difference - Captain Tom Moore as an example - it only serves to demonstrate just how punitive the system is. Captain Moore was knighted, but made a very basic knight. With 10 ranks in the Order of Chivalry below him. Many of the people in those ranks get their gong because of who they are or the job they did, rather than because of what they have done. So Sir Tom no post-nominals because you're not worth it was a snub.
    A phenomenonally silly episode all round.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 39,630
    Heathener said:

    I also mention something more anecfactual.

    I am fond of talking about the LibDem chances because they are the ones best represented in my area for defeating the Conservatives, despite the fact that I would naturally vote Labour if they had a better chance. It is a long time since I felt such an anti-tory force within me and I believe this to be truer now than at anytime since 1992-7, not just for me but for many others..

    I believe that pollsters may be chronically under-estimating organic tactical voting and that's bad news for the Conservatives.

    If we're swapping anecdata, the first two R4 vox pops from the constituency were 'I'll probably vote Labour' and 'I'll probably not vote'...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 39,630

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Pioneers, the Order of the Garter was founded by Edward III, a king who was generally good and chivalrous.

    If your argument is that the 14th century was less lovely than today, then I agree. It's rather harsh, however, to judge men born into that era by modern norms. How would you like to be judged according to the moral principles of the 28th century?

    I'd volunteer to live long enough to find out.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,498
    edited June 14
    Back onto cosplay Thatcher's "Fuck the Bill" Bill, I don't know why BR is saying "this is what I proposed" when he has endlessly demanded they invoke Article 16. This goes straight past the A16 provision in the law and seeks to impose a settlement without negotiation. Which is the precise opposite of what A16 was intended to do.

    The reality is simple - this government has demonstrated it is incapable of negotiation. So it doesn't want to invoke the A16 negotiation process as it knows it will only negotiate another settlement it doesn't understand. So fuck the bill, just impose a one-sided settlement and then claim to be an honest broker with all the people who now don't want to negotiate a coffee order with us.

    Not that it will get through the House of Lords anyway. I can see the "Enemies of the State" headlines now.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 58,561
    Mr. B, remember Tithonus.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,501

    Back onto cosplay Thatcher's "Fuck the Bill" Bill, I don't know why BR is saying "this is what I proposed" when he has endlessly demanded they invoke Article 16. This goes straight past the A16 provision in the law and seeks to impose a settlement without negotiation. Which is the precise opposite of what A16 was intended to do.

    The reality is simple - this government has demonstrated it is incapable of negotiation. So it doesn't want to invoke the A16 negotiation process as it knows it will only negotiate another settlement it doesn't understand. So fuck the bill, just impose a one-sided settlement and then claim to be an honest broker with all the people who now don't want to negotiate a coffee order with us.

    Not that it will get through the House of Lords anyway. I can see the "Enemies of the State" headlines now.

    It also has serious questions for the UK's integrity. In a few weeks, assuming the current mess isn't resolved, and I don't think it will be with the horror film clowns in charge as at present, I'd like to see polling on the wish for a border poll, and how the Alliance's policy in particular changes on the need for a border poll.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 29,790
    Rather randomly off-topic, junction 7A on the M11 (Harlow North) opened at the weekend.

    It is already on Google Maps and Waze. It is not on Bing Maps yet. Can't easily check Apple atm... ;)

    These small things matter (tm).

    I wonder how the developers keep up with these alterations to the road network around the world? Local offices keeping their eyes out for changes? Details pushed to them by local and central governments?
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,216
    My guess is that Johnson will not be made an Order of the Garter
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,216

    Rather randomly off-topic, junction 7A on the M11 (Harlow North) opened at the weekend.

    It is already on Google Maps and Waze. It is not on Bing Maps yet. Can't easily check Apple atm... ;)

    These small things matter (tm).

    I wonder how the developers keep up with these alterations to the road network around the world? Local offices keeping their eyes out for changes? Details pushed to them by local and central governments?

    They use Google maps
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Pioneers, the Order of the Garter was founded by Edward III, a king who was generally good and chivalrous.

    If your argument is that the 14th century was less lovely than today, then I agree. It's rather harsh, however, to judge men born into that era by modern norms. How would you like to be judged according to the moral principles of the 28th century?

    You can only judge people according to the ethics of their era. So my objection to the founder knights of the garter is specifically that we still have their order as the highest rung of an order of chivalry which seems like a massive anachronism.

    Even when we do nice things and honour people who have made a difference - Captain Tom Moore as an example - it only serves to demonstrate just how punitive the system is. Captain Moore was knighted, but made a very basic knight. With 10 ranks in the Order of Chivalry below him. Many of the people in those ranks get their gong because of who they are or the job they did, rather than because of what they have done. So Sir Tom no post-nominals because you're not worth it was a snub.
    Do you really think Sir Tom and his family felt snubbed rather than honoured when he got his knighthood?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 39,630

    My guess is that Johnson will not be made an Order of the Garter

    Who knows ?
    Prince Andrew is a member of the order.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,498

    My guess is that Johnson will not be made an Order of the Garter

    And as a Scot shouldn't Blair have been invested as a Knight of the Thistle?
  • Heathener said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Unemployment down again. FFS, put up interest rates!

    Unemployment is a lagging indicator. The UK economy contracted last month.
    Enough to turn the negative GDP number positive.
    Fancy a wager on that? You're one of the only people who think sunlit uplands are a month away. We're slumping into recession.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/13/no-new-tax-cuts-inflation-falls-suggests-boris-johnson/

    A wager on that? What he said was a matter of fact that the ONS have published.

    The contraction of the economy was due to the closing of Test and Trace, if you strip that out then the economy actually grew by 0.1%

    Now of course it would be fair to say that 0.1% is not very much and it certainly could go negative from here, especially with the way the government are mishandling the economy putting up taxes on people who are working, but that's not the same as saying it genuinely contracted last month already when closing Test and Trace was absolutely the right thing to do and a one off incidental.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 9,474



    Not that it will get through the House of Lords anyway. I can see the "Enemies of the State" headlines now.

    It's artfully timed for the row with the Lords and/or use of the Parliament Act to be on the vinegars as we have "Save Brexit" election.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 20,962
    moonshine said:

    @Leon On the other thing, you were right the first time:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/06/13/head-nasa-taking-ufos-seriously/

    Bill Nelson, the former space shuttle astronaut and US senator, said he had personally talked to two Navy pilots who saw numerous flying objects in 2004, and had turned over the investigation to Nasa’s top scientist.

    “We're taking this very seriously,” he told a briefing of science journalists.

    “I've talked to the Navy pilots that know that they saw something back in 2004. They tracked it on their radar off the Southern California coast, over the Pacific.

    “Since then hundreds of objects have been spotted and a couple of them were explained, they may be balloons, but most of them are unexplained.

    “So I’ve asked Nasa, and it will be announced within a few days, to approach this subject from a scientific standpoint, since we are a scientific research organisation. In about eight months, they’re going to report.”

    Asked whether he thought the sightings could be enemy aircraft, the Nasa administrator added: “Do I think it's an enemy? I hope it isn't, because the Navy pilots would describe it as: 'It's here and then it's over there. With no time in between.'

    “And so my simple answer is I don't know. And that's why I've asked our scientists to see if they've got any explanation.”

    But where are the convincing videos and photos? The irrefutable radar data, infra red signals, and the rest?

    They seemingly don’t exist, and even some of the desperately feeble videos we do have - the pyramids (bokeh) - have now been debunked

    And yet, something is up in US military and political circles, which has to be explained. For the moment I stand by my belief that it is post-plague, China-exacerbated paranoia being used by others, with perhaps a core of true believers. That’s the best I can do; it is not satisfactory but no explanation is

    On the other hand it does feel like several storylines are coming together at once. The revelation that DNA can arise spontaneously with great ease, the fact we are approaching AI, it all points to life in the universe being much more abundant than we thought, and if it is abundant then planets would be sending out AI probes and one or more of them will find, or have found, us. So I don;t rule out UFOs either

    Good morning from a warm, stormy Yerevan
  • kjhkjh Posts: 6,615
    Good morning all from Lisbon.

    All good news. Had a great first day. My ankle was the size of a balloon by the end of it, but I had walked miles and this morning it feels great. Glad I decided to bring a crutch. People very kind to people with a crutch which is nice to know, although all offers declined. I tell them I am a fraud really.

    Local paper reports queues at passport control were up to 3 hours so in hindsight I consider myself lucky and thank you PB for keeping me entertained while I waited.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,498

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Pioneers, the Order of the Garter was founded by Edward III, a king who was generally good and chivalrous.

    If your argument is that the 14th century was less lovely than today, then I agree. It's rather harsh, however, to judge men born into that era by modern norms. How would you like to be judged according to the moral principles of the 28th century?

    You can only judge people according to the ethics of their era. So my objection to the founder knights of the garter is specifically that we still have their order as the highest rung of an order of chivalry which seems like a massive anachronism.

    Even when we do nice things and honour people who have made a difference - Captain Tom Moore as an example - it only serves to demonstrate just how punitive the system is. Captain Moore was knighted, but made a very basic knight. With 10 ranks in the Order of Chivalry below him. Many of the people in those ranks get their gong because of who they are or the job they did, rather than because of what they have done. So Sir Tom no post-nominals because you're not worth it was a snub.
    Do you really think Sir Tom and his family felt snubbed rather than honoured when he got his knighthood?
    Hell no. Vs the majority of plebs he was honoured. But as the bottom rung gong it is a bit of a snub vs what could have been awarded. Gavin Williamson got given a higher gong than Captain Moore - for what?

    Scrap the whole charade.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 20,962
    kjh said:

    Good morning all from Lisbon.

    All good news. Had a great first day. My ankle was the size of a balloon by the end of it, but I had walked miles and this morning it feels great. Glad I decided to bring a crutch. People very kind to people with a crutch which is nice to know, although all offers declined. I tell them I am a fraud really.

    Local paper reports queues at passport control were up to 3 hours so in hindsight I consider myself lucky and thank you PB for keeping me entertained while I waited.

    Sympathies

    Do the local papers say why the queues were so bad? Simple lack of staff? Something else?

    There are multiple reports of people jumping these queues now, across the world, by pretending to be wheelchair-bound. Perhaps you need to upgrade from your crutch
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,498
    Dura_Ace said:



    Not that it will get through the House of Lords anyway. I can see the "Enemies of the State" headlines now.

    It's artfully timed for the row with the Lords and/or use of the Parliament Act to be on the vinegars as we have "Save Brexit" election.
    Klaxon Alert - This government is proposing a succession of supposedly populist but unworkable and illegal measures. One by one they will get stopped - by saboteur judges, by leftie lawyers, by foreign MLA (the non-unionist ones aren't British anyway are they...), by snooty Lords.

    Before the Conservative party finally manages to remove Boris from office, whilst Starmer is tied up fighting allegations of naughtiness (made maliciously by Tories), whilst the Fate Of The Brexit hangs in the balance, why not throw caution to the wind, get the band back together and go for an election?

    To any PM with a brain this would all be madness. But the PM is Boris Johnson...
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 5,495
    Carnyx said:

    Back onto cosplay Thatcher's "Fuck the Bill" Bill, I don't know why BR is saying "this is what I proposed" when he has endlessly demanded they invoke Article 16. This goes straight past the A16 provision in the law and seeks to impose a settlement without negotiation. Which is the precise opposite of what A16 was intended to do.

    The reality is simple - this government has demonstrated it is incapable of negotiation. So it doesn't want to invoke the A16 negotiation process as it knows it will only negotiate another settlement it doesn't understand. So fuck the bill, just impose a one-sided settlement and then claim to be an honest broker with all the people who now don't want to negotiate a coffee order with us.

    Not that it will get through the House of Lords anyway. I can see the "Enemies of the State" headlines now.

    It also has serious questions for the UK's integrity. In a few weeks, assuming the current mess isn't resolved, and I don't think it will be with the horror film clowns in charge as at present, I'd like to see polling on the wish for a border poll, and how the Alliance's policy in particular changes on the need for a border poll.
    Good luck. Understanding the island of Ireland works quite well if you follow just three general principles.

    1) We don't like the status quo
    2) We don't like any of the alternatives to the status quo
    3) Whatever it is, it's not our fault.

    And also note that the only sensible NI party doesn't have a policy on the biggest political question.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,173
    Good Morning everyone.
    On topic, by-elections do have e 'consequences'. Plaid Cymru was't really noticed in the Westminster context until Gwynfor Evans won Carmarthen in 1966.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,895
    edited June 14
    Heathener said:

    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Can we not create a system of honours

    Even better, let's do away with all honours. We cannot take them with us when we leave this world.

    More recognition of hubris and humility would be a good thing. The only honour should be paradoxically reserved for those who shun it.
    Go the other way? Give an MBE to anyone who pays and extra 10% in tax for 10years. Do that for 30 years get a knighthood. Doesn’t matter how much you pay, just more than he minimum. It goes into a national improvement fund for essential infrastructure and good works. Available to all.
    :smiley:

    An amusing idea but one which I'm afraid revolts me. The idea that we should honour anyone based on their spending power is ... well ... cash for honours.

    And the 'BE' bit really pisses me off. What the hell is the 'British Empire' but a celebration of a corrupt, violent, abusive and enslaving colonialism which crushed so many peoples.

    A real 'honours' system would be reparations to all those we subjugated.

    And with that thought I bid you all a happy day.

    x
    A fun idea, buts It’s not based on their absolute spending power. A knighthood would be available to anyone earning £10/year or £10m/yr. You just have to contribute more than bare minimum, whatever you earn, over many years.

    Puts the honour into paying a contribution to the nation and exposes folk that avoid it. If you pay your taxes throughout your career you should be recognised.
  • Back onto cosplay Thatcher's "Fuck the Bill" Bill, I don't know why BR is saying "this is what I proposed" when he has endlessly demanded they invoke Article 16. This goes straight past the A16 provision in the law and seeks to impose a settlement without negotiation. Which is the precise opposite of what A16 was intended to do.

    The reality is simple - this government has demonstrated it is incapable of negotiation. So it doesn't want to invoke the A16 negotiation process as it knows it will only negotiate another settlement it doesn't understand. So fuck the bill, just impose a one-sided settlement and then claim to be an honest broker with all the people who now don't want to negotiate a coffee order with us.

    Not that it will get through the House of Lords anyway. I can see the "Enemies of the State" headlines now.

    How sour are those grapes you're eating?

    The Americans have already turned around and said that this won't affect the US/UK trade negotiations, considering how popular the "Irish vote" is in America if any third parties were going to react it would have been them, and I'd have discounted that as pandering to the vote, but even they're not doing so. I definitely can't imagine it affecting Pacific nations negotiations with us for CPTPP accession either.

    The A16 process isn't being invoked, but they have legal advice saying its not necessary. IANAL so will take them at their word. That process is just a method to get from where we are to the end point though, it is the end point that matters.

    The proposed solution in the bill, the "impose a one-sided settlement" is precisely what I've suggested all along. The UK holds all the cards, we can impose a settlement because the EU is bluffing. It is true now, it was true years ago, it was true five years ago. Good on Liz Truss for calling the EU's bluff.

    I read the Bill last night, I approve of it. It is the solution I've advocated for years, there's no Irish land border, no Irish sea border, no alignment, and dual regulations. Precisely what should have always been the end game here. You were crying havoc for years that it needed to be alignment that would end this, I'm sorry you're not getting your way.

    Schrodingers NI where NI is both in the EU Single Market, and in the post-Brexit UK, simultaneously, is entirely within the principles of the Belfast Agreement. About time we have some common sense here.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 16,562
    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Can we not create a system of honours

    Even better, let's do away with all honours. We cannot take them with us when we leave this world.

    More recognition of hubris and humility would be a good thing. The only honour should be paradoxically reserved for those who shun it.
    Go the other way? Give an MBE to anyone who pays and extra 10% in tax for 10years. Do that for 30 years get a knighthood. Doesn’t matter how much you pay, just more than he minimum. It goes into a national improvement fund for essential infrastructure and good works. Available to all.
    :smiley:

    An amusing idea but one which I'm afraid revolts me. The idea that we should honour anyone based on their spending power is ... well ... cash for honours.

    And the 'BE' bit really pisses me off. What the hell is the 'British Empire' but a celebration of a corrupt, violent, abusive and enslaving colonialism which crushed so many peoples.

    A real 'honours' system would be reparations to all those we subjugated.

    And with that thought I bid you all a happy day.

    x
    A fun idea, buts It’s not based on their absolute spending power. A knighthood would be available to anyone earning £10/year or £10m/yr. You just have to contribute more than bare minimum, whatever you earn, over many years.

    Puts the honour into paying a contribution to the nation and exposes folk that avoid it. If you pay your taxes throughout your career you should be recognised.
    I have suggested that hereditary baronetcies should be brought back and be available to be 'bought' by wealthy people investing in the UK, paying lots of tax, and spending most of their time here. I'd also tie them to specific estates (especially derelict ones in poorer areas) to try and encourage wealthy people to move in and stay. Sell the property and move on and you and yoir descendants lose the baronetcy.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 6,615
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning all from Lisbon.

    All good news. Had a great first day. My ankle was the size of a balloon by the end of it, but I had walked miles and this morning it feels great. Glad I decided to bring a crutch. People very kind to people with a crutch which is nice to know, although all offers declined. I tell them I am a fraud really.

    Local paper reports queues at passport control were up to 3 hours so in hindsight I consider myself lucky and thank you PB for keeping me entertained while I waited.

    Sympathies

    Do the local papers say why the queues were so bad? Simple lack of staff? Something else?

    There are multiple reports of people jumping these queues now, across the world, by pretending to be wheelchair-bound. Perhaps you need to upgrade from your crutch
    Thanks @Leon . No idea because when we got to the front they were putting people through the EU gates and the priority gates as well and every gate was manned and going through was swift.

    I had previously said Portugal was using e-gates (because I read that). I lied. They aren't. Traditional stamping of passport being used. So don't believe anything I say in future.

    No explanation from me I am afraid. Is it just normal in peak season and we have just been spoilt by EU gates? I traveled a lot during the pandemic and was obviously spoilt by the ease of travel then.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,501
    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    Back onto cosplay Thatcher's "Fuck the Bill" Bill, I don't know why BR is saying "this is what I proposed" when he has endlessly demanded they invoke Article 16. This goes straight past the A16 provision in the law and seeks to impose a settlement without negotiation. Which is the precise opposite of what A16 was intended to do.

    The reality is simple - this government has demonstrated it is incapable of negotiation. So it doesn't want to invoke the A16 negotiation process as it knows it will only negotiate another settlement it doesn't understand. So fuck the bill, just impose a one-sided settlement and then claim to be an honest broker with all the people who now don't want to negotiate a coffee order with us.

    Not that it will get through the House of Lords anyway. I can see the "Enemies of the State" headlines now.

    It also has serious questions for the UK's integrity. In a few weeks, assuming the current mess isn't resolved, and I don't think it will be with the horror film clowns in charge as at present, I'd like to see polling on the wish for a border poll, and how the Alliance's policy in particular changes on the need for a border poll.
    Good luck. Understanding the island of Ireland works quite well if you follow just three general principles.

    1) We don't like the status quo
    2) We don't like any of the alternatives to the status quo
    3) Whatever it is, it's not our fault.

    And also note that the only sensible NI party doesn't have a policy on the biggest political question.


    I must beg to amend the final comment. The Alliance do; they don't see the need for a border poll. Ifx that changes, it will be very significant.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 39,027
    malcolmg said:

    Heathener said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Unemployment down again. FFS, put up interest rates!

    Unemployment is a lagging indicator. The UK economy contracted last month.
    Enough to turn the negative GDP number positive.
    Fancy a wager on that? You're one of the only people who think sunlit uplands are a month away. We're slumping into recession.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/13/no-new-tax-cuts-inflation-falls-suggests-boris-johnson/

    He talks bollox from afar on a regular basis, has no clue what is going on in UK other than what he reads in the daily mail
    Almost a smile-raising level of invective. Not a bad effort for 8am.
  • eekeek Posts: 19,265
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning all from Lisbon.

    All good news. Had a great first day. My ankle was the size of a balloon by the end of it, but I had walked miles and this morning it feels great. Glad I decided to bring a crutch. People very kind to people with a crutch which is nice to know, although all offers declined. I tell them I am a fraud really.

    Local paper reports queues at passport control were up to 3 hours so in hindsight I consider myself lucky and thank you PB for keeping me entertained while I waited.

    Sympathies

    Do the local papers say why the queues were so bad? Simple lack of staff? Something else?

    There are multiple reports of people jumping these queues now, across the world, by pretending to be wheelchair-bound. Perhaps you need to upgrade from your crutch
    Thanks @Leon . No idea because when we got to the front they were putting people through the EU gates and the priority gates as well and every gate was manned and going through was swift.

    I had previously said Portugal was using e-gates (because I read that). I lied. They aren't. Traditional stamping of passport being used. So don't believe anything I say in future.

    No explanation from me I am afraid. Is it just normal in peak season and we have just been spoilt by EU gates? I traveled a lot during the pandemic and was obviously spoilt by the ease of travel then.
    eGates only work if they work all the time OR you don't care about people overstaying their welcome.

    So we use them in Britain because we don't particular care how long people stay - parts of Europe however really do care so you need actual stamps in your passport to provide a secondary audit for when the eGates fail to record your arrival or departure.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 20,962
    edited June 14
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning all from Lisbon.

    All good news. Had a great first day. My ankle was the size of a balloon by the end of it, but I had walked miles and this morning it feels great. Glad I decided to bring a crutch. People very kind to people with a crutch which is nice to know, although all offers declined. I tell them I am a fraud really.

    Local paper reports queues at passport control were up to 3 hours so in hindsight I consider myself lucky and thank you PB for keeping me entertained while I waited.

    Sympathies

    Do the local papers say why the queues were so bad? Simple lack of staff? Something else?

    There are multiple reports of people jumping these queues now, across the world, by pretending to be wheelchair-bound. Perhaps you need to upgrade from your crutch
    Thanks @Leon . No idea because when we got to the front they were putting people through the EU gates and the priority gates as well and every gate was manned and going through was swift.

    I had previously said Portugal was using e-gates (because I read that). I lied. They aren't. Traditional stamping of passport being used. So don't believe anything I say in future.

    No explanation from me I am afraid. Is it just normal in peak season and we have just been spoilt by EU gates? I traveled a lot during the pandemic and was obviously spoilt by the ease of travel then.
    My guess is that it is the usual mix. Loss of staff because pandemic, some staff sick because Covid, plus an unexpected boom in travel from pent-up desire. People REALLY want to go abroad after 2-and-some-change years of jailtime. This is happening across the world, airports in chaos, airlines rammed, etc

    There is probably a Brexit element as well but it is likely minor compared to these other factors


    Eg See here: huge queues at Australian airports. Pretty obviously, that ain’t Brexit


    https://youtu.be/X14r7rta1sM
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 17,035
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning all from Lisbon.

    All good news. Had a great first day. My ankle was the size of a balloon by the end of it, but I had walked miles and this morning it feels great. Glad I decided to bring a crutch. People very kind to people with a crutch which is nice to know, although all offers declined. I tell them I am a fraud really.

    Local paper reports queues at passport control were up to 3 hours so in hindsight I consider myself lucky and thank you PB for keeping me entertained while I waited.

    Sympathies

    Do the local papers say why the queues were so bad? Simple lack of staff? Something else?

    There are multiple reports of people jumping these queues now, across the world, by pretending to be wheelchair-bound. Perhaps you need to upgrade from your crutch
    Thanks @Leon . No idea because when we got to the front they were putting people through the EU gates and the priority gates as well and every gate was manned and going through was swift.

    I had previously said Portugal was using e-gates (because I read that). I lied. They aren't. Traditional stamping of passport being used. So don't believe anything I say in future.

    No explanation from me I am afraid. Is it just normal in peak season and we have just been spoilt by EU gates? I traveled a lot during the pandemic and was obviously spoilt by the ease of travel then.
    Double whammy in Sicily, egates then stamp
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,501
    eek said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning all from Lisbon.

    All good news. Had a great first day. My ankle was the size of a balloon by the end of it, but I had walked miles and this morning it feels great. Glad I decided to bring a crutch. People very kind to people with a crutch which is nice to know, although all offers declined. I tell them I am a fraud really.

    Local paper reports queues at passport control were up to 3 hours so in hindsight I consider myself lucky and thank you PB for keeping me entertained while I waited.

    Sympathies

    Do the local papers say why the queues were so bad? Simple lack of staff? Something else?

    There are multiple reports of people jumping these queues now, across the world, by pretending to be wheelchair-bound. Perhaps you need to upgrade from your crutch
    Thanks @Leon . No idea because when we got to the front they were putting people through the EU gates and the priority gates as well and every gate was manned and going through was swift.

    I had previously said Portugal was using e-gates (because I read that). I lied. They aren't. Traditional stamping of passport being used. So don't believe anything I say in future.

    No explanation from me I am afraid. Is it just normal in peak season and we have just been spoilt by EU gates? I traveled a lot during the pandemic and was obviously spoilt by the ease of travel then.
    eGates only work if they work all the time OR you don't care about people overstaying their welcome.

    So we use them in Britain because we don't particular care how long people stay - parts of Europe however really do care so you need actual stamps in your passport to provide a secondary audit for when the eGates fail to record your arrival or departure.
    Quite. Brexiters refuse to implement decent border control, partly because of their sustained and sometimes maliciously deliberate incompetence in government, and then complain about the consequences, perceived or otherwise.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Pioneers, the Order of the Garter was founded by Edward III, a king who was generally good and chivalrous.

    If your argument is that the 14th century was less lovely than today, then I agree. It's rather harsh, however, to judge men born into that era by modern norms. How would you like to be judged according to the moral principles of the 28th century?

    You can only judge people according to the ethics of their era. So my objection to the founder knights of the garter is specifically that we still have their order as the highest rung of an order of chivalry which seems like a massive anachronism.

    Even when we do nice things and honour people who have made a difference - Captain Tom Moore as an example - it only serves to demonstrate just how punitive the system is. Captain Moore was knighted, but made a very basic knight. With 10 ranks in the Order of Chivalry below him. Many of the people in those ranks get their gong because of who they are or the job they did, rather than because of what they have done. So Sir Tom no post-nominals because you're not worth it was a snub.
    Do you really think Sir Tom and his family felt snubbed rather than honoured when he got his knighthood?
    Hell no. Vs the majority of plebs he was honoured. But as the bottom rung gong it is a bit of a snub vs what could have been awarded. Gavin Williamson got given a higher gong than Captain Moore - for what?

    Scrap the whole charade.
    But if he and his family don't care about the rungs, and the only people that care about the rungs are those they're going to or who are aspiring to them, then why does it matter? He was honoured, his family felt honoured, what's the problem?

    I'm a republican, but not because of this, even if we scrapped our current honour system the simple reality is it'd be replaced with something that works the same way. Look at republics around the world, like France or the USA, they have their own version of honours, and they do things in the same sort of way too.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 20,962
    eek said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning all from Lisbon.

    All good news. Had a great first day. My ankle was the size of a balloon by the end of it, but I had walked miles and this morning it feels great. Glad I decided to bring a crutch. People very kind to people with a crutch which is nice to know, although all offers declined. I tell them I am a fraud really.

    Local paper reports queues at passport control were up to 3 hours so in hindsight I consider myself lucky and thank you PB for keeping me entertained while I waited.

    Sympathies

    Do the local papers say why the queues were so bad? Simple lack of staff? Something else?

    There are multiple reports of people jumping these queues now, across the world, by pretending to be wheelchair-bound. Perhaps you need to upgrade from your crutch
    Thanks @Leon . No idea because when we got to the front they were putting people through the EU gates and the priority gates as well and every gate was manned and going through was swift.

    I had previously said Portugal was using e-gates (because I read that). I lied. They aren't. Traditional stamping of passport being used. So don't believe anything I say in future.

    No explanation from me I am afraid. Is it just normal in peak season and we have just been spoilt by EU gates? I traveled a lot during the pandemic and was obviously spoilt by the ease of travel then.
    eGates only work if they work all the time OR you don't care about people overstaying their welcome.

    So we use them in Britain because we don't particular care how long people stay - parts of Europe however really do care so you need actual stamps in your passport to provide a secondary audit for when the eGates fail to record your arrival or departure.
    The EU really needs to get over its stamp fetish. It’s boring and retarded. Fucking stamps FFS. What is this, the 1930s?

    Computerise the whole thing, put e-gates everywhere, problem solved
  • eekeek Posts: 19,265
    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning all from Lisbon.

    All good news. Had a great first day. My ankle was the size of a balloon by the end of it, but I had walked miles and this morning it feels great. Glad I decided to bring a crutch. People very kind to people with a crutch which is nice to know, although all offers declined. I tell them I am a fraud really.

    Local paper reports queues at passport control were up to 3 hours so in hindsight I consider myself lucky and thank you PB for keeping me entertained while I waited.

    Sympathies

    Do the local papers say why the queues were so bad? Simple lack of staff? Something else?

    There are multiple reports of people jumping these queues now, across the world, by pretending to be wheelchair-bound. Perhaps you need to upgrade from your crutch
    Thanks @Leon . No idea because when we got to the front they were putting people through the EU gates and the priority gates as well and every gate was manned and going through was swift.

    I had previously said Portugal was using e-gates (because I read that). I lied. They aren't. Traditional stamping of passport being used. So don't believe anything I say in future.

    No explanation from me I am afraid. Is it just normal in peak season and we have just been spoilt by EU gates? I traveled a lot during the pandemic and was obviously spoilt by the ease of travel then.
    eGates only work if they work all the time OR you don't care about people overstaying their welcome.

    So we use them in Britain because we don't particular care how long people stay - parts of Europe however really do care so you need actual stamps in your passport to provide a secondary audit for when the eGates fail to record your arrival or departure.
    Quite. Brexiters refuse to implement decent border control, partly because of their sustained and sometimes maliciously deliberate incompetence in government, and then complain about the consequences, perceived or otherwise.
    The reality is that Bozo don't care and in this case it works to their advantage. Heading to Europe your typical Brit sees the EU being awkward and on the return they see the UK being generous.

    The reality is of course completely different but it requires thought and a certain level of knowledge to see what is actually happening.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,382
    Off topic truths.
    Squeamish people (are there any hereabouts?) probably shouldn't read this.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/11/opinion/trump-january-6.html
  • eekeek Posts: 19,265
    edited June 14
    Leon said:

    eek said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning all from Lisbon.

    All good news. Had a great first day. My ankle was the size of a balloon by the end of it, but I had walked miles and this morning it feels great. Glad I decided to bring a crutch. People very kind to people with a crutch which is nice to know, although all offers declined. I tell them I am a fraud really.

    Local paper reports queues at passport control were up to 3 hours so in hindsight I consider myself lucky and thank you PB for keeping me entertained while I waited.

    Sympathies

    Do the local papers say why the queues were so bad? Simple lack of staff? Something else?

    There are multiple reports of people jumping these queues now, across the world, by pretending to be wheelchair-bound. Perhaps you need to upgrade from your crutch
    Thanks @Leon . No idea because when we got to the front they were putting people through the EU gates and the priority gates as well and every gate was manned and going through was swift.

    I had previously said Portugal was using e-gates (because I read that). I lied. They aren't. Traditional stamping of passport being used. So don't believe anything I say in future.

    No explanation from me I am afraid. Is it just normal in peak season and we have just been spoilt by EU gates? I traveled a lot during the pandemic and was obviously spoilt by the ease of travel then.
    eGates only work if they work all the time OR you don't care about people overstaying their welcome.

    So we use them in Britain because we don't particular care how long people stay - parts of Europe however really do care so you need actual stamps in your passport to provide a secondary audit for when the eGates fail to record your arrival or departure.
    The EU really needs to get over its stamp fetish. It’s boring and retarded. Fucking stamps FFS. What is this, the 1930s?

    Computerise the whole thing, put e-gates everywhere, problem solved
    That works great until the eGate fails to send the data to the central system.

    Remember we spend a lot of time talking about 99% and 99.999% systems. Stamps on a passport are a 99.999% solution to a problem, eGates and a centralised database isn't even a 99% solution.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,827
    Better economic news: https://news.sky.com/story/president-macron-will-be-choking-on-his-croissants-as-uk-beats-france-for-tech-investment-12633086?dicbo=v2-a81132f3ce614508cdfa710e7d82cb42

    Putting aside the frankly childish nonsense in the headline money is pouring into UK tech at a rate that will certainly help growth in the future. I just hope some of this investment is outside London.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 6,615
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning all from Lisbon.

    All good news. Had a great first day. My ankle was the size of a balloon by the end of it, but I had walked miles and this morning it feels great. Glad I decided to bring a crutch. People very kind to people with a crutch which is nice to know, although all offers declined. I tell them I am a fraud really.

    Local paper reports queues at passport control were up to 3 hours so in hindsight I consider myself lucky and thank you PB for keeping me entertained while I waited.

    Sympathies

    Do the local papers say why the queues were so bad? Simple lack of staff? Something else?

    There are multiple reports of people jumping these queues now, across the world, by pretending to be wheelchair-bound. Perhaps you need to upgrade from your crutch
    Thanks @Leon . No idea because when we got to the front they were putting people through the EU gates and the priority gates as well and every gate was manned and going through was swift.

    I had previously said Portugal was using e-gates (because I read that). I lied. They aren't. Traditional stamping of passport being used. So don't believe anything I say in future.

    No explanation from me I am afraid. Is it just normal in peak season and we have just been spoilt by EU gates? I traveled a lot during the pandemic and was obviously spoilt by the ease of travel then.
    My guess is that it is the usual mix. Loss of staff because pandemic, some staff sick because Covid, plus an unexpected boom in travel from pent-up desire. People REALLY want to go abroad after 2-and-some-change years of jailtime. This is happening across the world, airports in chaos, airlines rammed, etc

    There is probably a Brexit element as well but it is likely minor compared to these other factors


    Eg See here: huge queues at Australian airports. Pretty obviously, that ain’t Brexit


    https://youtu.be/X14r7rta1sM
    All gates manned so not staff issue. Brexit issue only in that it stopped me going through EU gate because most of my queue was made up of yanks. Suspect you are right about demand

    Don't know whether you saw my posts yesterday. Our queue was a 1000 deep (easy to judge by number of turns in snake), but it dropped to about 400 so I think we joined it after a flight or two from the states which was unlucky.

    I also thanked you for your advice on Lisbon which we have already used.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,895

    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Can we not create a system of honours

    Even better, let's do away with all honours. We cannot take them with us when we leave this world.

    More recognition of hubris and humility would be a good thing. The only honour should be paradoxically reserved for those who shun it.
    Go the other way? Give an MBE to anyone who pays and extra 10% in tax for 10years. Do that for 30 years get a knighthood. Doesn’t matter how much you pay, just more than he minimum. It goes into a national improvement fund for essential infrastructure and good works. Available to all.
    :smiley:

    An amusing idea but one which I'm afraid revolts me. The idea that we should honour anyone based on their spending power is ... well ... cash for honours.

    And the 'BE' bit really pisses me off. What the hell is the 'British Empire' but a celebration of a corrupt, violent, abusive and enslaving colonialism which crushed so many peoples.

    A real 'honours' system would be reparations to all those we subjugated.

    And with that thought I bid you all a happy day.

    x
    A fun idea, buts It’s not based on their absolute spending power. A knighthood would be available to anyone earning £10/year or £10m/yr. You just have to contribute more than bare minimum, whatever you earn, over many years.

    Puts the honour into paying a contribution to the nation and exposes folk that avoid it. If you pay your taxes throughout your career you should be recognised.
    I have suggested that hereditary baronetcies should be brought back and be available to be 'bought' by wealthy people investing in the UK, paying lots of tax, and spending most of their time here. I'd also tie them to specific estates (especially derelict ones in poorer areas) to try and encourage wealthy people to move in and stay. Sell the property and move on and you and yoir descendants lose the baronetcy.
    The idea of locking lordships to location is interesting. You have to feel sorry for the people of York. Although I suspect HM might be tempted to grant him the title Lord Tristan da Cuhna .
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,986
    Quite a coup for the Yorkshire Party if they could beat the LDs, Greens and RefUK to take third in Wakefield. I can't see it too
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 7,974
    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    @Leon On the other thing, you were right the first time:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/06/13/head-nasa-taking-ufos-seriously/

    Bill Nelson, the former space shuttle astronaut and US senator, said he had personally talked to two Navy pilots who saw numerous flying objects in 2004, and had turned over the investigation to Nasa’s top scientist.

    “We're taking this very seriously,” he told a briefing of science journalists.

    “I've talked to the Navy pilots that know that they saw something back in 2004. They tracked it on their radar off the Southern California coast, over the Pacific.

    “Since then hundreds of objects have been spotted and a couple of them were explained, they may be balloons, but most of them are unexplained.

    “So I’ve asked Nasa, and it will be announced within a few days, to approach this subject from a scientific standpoint, since we are a scientific research organisation. In about eight months, they’re going to report.”

    Asked whether he thought the sightings could be enemy aircraft, the Nasa administrator added: “Do I think it's an enemy? I hope it isn't, because the Navy pilots would describe it as: 'It's here and then it's over there. With no time in between.'

    “And so my simple answer is I don't know. And that's why I've asked our scientists to see if they've got any explanation.”

    But where are the convincing videos and photos? The irrefutable radar data, infra red signals, and the rest?

    They seemingly don’t exist, and even some of the desperately feeble videos we do have - the pyramids (bokeh) - have now been debunked

    And yet, something is up in US military and political circles, which has to be explained. For the moment I stand by my belief that it is post-plague, China-exacerbated paranoia being used by others, with perhaps a core of true believers. That’s the best I can do; it is not satisfactory but no explanation is

    On the other hand it does feel like several storylines are coming together at once. The revelation that DNA can arise spontaneously with great ease, the fact we are approaching AI, it all points to life in the universe being much more abundant than we thought, and if it is abundant then planets would be sending out AI probes and one or more of them will find, or have found, us. So I don;t rule out UFOs either

    Good morning from a warm, stormy Yerevan
    "The revelation that DNA can arise spontaneously with great ease," - missed that one? Where was that from? A revamped Miller-Urey type experiment?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 36,851

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Pioneers, the Order of the Garter was founded by Edward III, a king who was generally good and chivalrous.

    If your argument is that the 14th century was less lovely than today, then I agree. It's rather harsh, however, to judge men born into that era by modern norms. How would you like to be judged according to the moral principles of the 28th century?

    You can only judge people according to the ethics of their era. So my objection to the founder knights of the garter is specifically that we still have their order as the highest rung of an order of chivalry which seems like a massive anachronism.

    Even when we do nice things and honour people who have made a difference - Captain Tom Moore as an example - it only serves to demonstrate just how punitive the system is. Captain Moore was knighted, but made a very basic knight. With 10 ranks in the Order of Chivalry below him. Many of the people in those ranks get their gong because of who they are or the job they did, rather than because of what they have done. So Sir Tom no post-nominals because you're not worth it was a snub.
    Do you really think Sir Tom and his family felt snubbed rather than honoured when he got his knighthood?
    Are you as stupid as you make out
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 36,851

    My guess is that Johnson will not be made an Order of the Garter

    And as a Scot shouldn't Blair have been invested as a Knight of the Thistle?
    Scottish my arse
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 17,030
    edited June 14
    Looks like the long run of winning female candidates at by-elections is going to come to an end in Wakefield. Nearly all the candidates are men.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 34,892

    Rather randomly off-topic, junction 7A on the M11 (Harlow North) opened at the weekend.

    It is already on Google Maps and Waze. It is not on Bing Maps yet. Can't easily check Apple atm... ;)

    These small things matter (tm).

    I wonder how the developers keep up with these alterations to the road network around the world? Local offices keeping their eyes out for changes? Details pushed to them by local and central governments?

    Google Maps uses citizen reporting. Anyone who has a profile can edit anything which is then approved by someone on MTurk. So as soon as it opened Google will have been inundated with those reports, a few hours later the MTurk person approves it after checking the relevant official websites.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,986
    Carnyx said:

    Back onto cosplay Thatcher's "Fuck the Bill" Bill, I don't know why BR is saying "this is what I proposed" when he has endlessly demanded they invoke Article 16. This goes straight past the A16 provision in the law and seeks to impose a settlement without negotiation. Which is the precise opposite of what A16 was intended to do.

    The reality is simple - this government has demonstrated it is incapable of negotiation. So it doesn't want to invoke the A16 negotiation process as it knows it will only negotiate another settlement it doesn't understand. So fuck the bill, just impose a one-sided settlement and then claim to be an honest broker with all the people who now don't want to negotiate a coffee order with us.

    Not that it will get through the House of Lords anyway. I can see the "Enemies of the State" headlines now.

    It also has serious questions for the UK's integrity. In a few weeks, assuming the current mess isn't resolved, and I don't think it will be with the horror film clowns in charge as at present, I'd like to see polling on the wish for a border poll, and how the Alliance's policy in particular changes on the need for a border poll.
    As long as the UK government does not impose a hard border in Ireland when it is removing the border in the Irish Sea, there will be no change in the Alliance's opposition to a border poll
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 7,974

    Back onto cosplay Thatcher's "Fuck the Bill" Bill, I don't know why BR is saying "this is what I proposed" when he has endlessly demanded they invoke Article 16. This goes straight past the A16 provision in the law and seeks to impose a settlement without negotiation. Which is the precise opposite of what A16 was intended to do.

    The reality is simple - this government has demonstrated it is incapable of negotiation. So it doesn't want to invoke the A16 negotiation process as it knows it will only negotiate another settlement it doesn't understand. So fuck the bill, just impose a one-sided settlement and then claim to be an honest broker with all the people who now don't want to negotiate a coffee order with us.

    Not that it will get through the House of Lords anyway. I can see the "Enemies of the State" headlines now.

    Well the EU has said that their can be no renegotiation. I saw Sefcowic say just that on the TV last night. So what do we do? The EU has acknowledged that there are issues, otherwise why would they have made their proposals based on massively reducing checks?

    At heart the idea of goods solely going from the rUK into NI and not for re-export needing extensive checking is ridiculous. If people start abusing a lack of such checks then they are breaking the law - go after them. But do not penalise traders within the country.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 39,027
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Can we not create a system of honours

    Even better, let's do away with all honours. We cannot take them with us when we leave this world.

    More recognition of hubris and humility would be a good thing. The only honour should be paradoxically reserved for those who shun it.
    Go the other way? Give an MBE to anyone who pays and extra 10% in tax for 10years. Do that for 30 years get a knighthood. Doesn’t matter how much you pay, just more than he minimum. It goes into a national improvement fund for essential infrastructure and good works. Available to all.
    :smiley:

    An amusing idea but one which I'm afraid revolts me. The idea that we should honour anyone based on their spending power is ... well ... cash for honours.

    And the 'BE' bit really pisses me off. What the hell is the 'British Empire' but a celebration of a corrupt, violent, abusive and enslaving colonialism which crushed so many peoples.

    A real 'honours' system would be reparations to all those we subjugated.

    And with that thought I bid you all a happy day.

    x
    A fun idea, buts It’s not based on their absolute spending power. A knighthood would be available to anyone earning £10/year or £10m/yr. You just have to contribute more than bare minimum, whatever you earn, over many years.

    Puts the honour into paying a contribution to the nation and exposes folk that avoid it. If you pay your taxes throughout your career you should be recognised.
    I have suggested that hereditary baronetcies should be brought back and be available to be 'bought' by wealthy people investing in the UK, paying lots of tax, and spending most of their time here. I'd also tie them to specific estates (especially derelict ones in poorer areas) to try and encourage wealthy people to move in and stay. Sell the property and move on and you and yoir descendants lose the baronetcy.
    The idea of locking lordships to location is interesting. You have to feel sorry for the people of York. Although I suspect HM might be tempted to grant him the title Lord Tristan da Cuhna .
    Maybe we should add a power of recall, so if the Duke of a place does something stupid or abandons their area, the residents can vote for him to be replaced with someone else. Geoff Boycott, the Grand Old Duke of York? Who’s famous in Sussex?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 36,851

    Back onto cosplay Thatcher's "Fuck the Bill" Bill, I don't know why BR is saying "this is what I proposed" when he has endlessly demanded they invoke Article 16. This goes straight past the A16 provision in the law and seeks to impose a settlement without negotiation. Which is the precise opposite of what A16 was intended to do.

    The reality is simple - this government has demonstrated it is incapable of negotiation. So it doesn't want to invoke the A16 negotiation process as it knows it will only negotiate another settlement it doesn't understand. So fuck the bill, just impose a one-sided settlement and then claim to be an honest broker with all the people who now don't want to negotiate a coffee order with us.

    Not that it will get through the House of Lords anyway. I can see the "Enemies of the State" headlines now.

    How sour are those grapes you're eating?

    The Americans have already turned around and said that this won't affect the US/UK trade negotiations, considering how popular the "Irish vote" is in America if any third parties were going to react it would have been them, and I'd have discounted that as pandering to the vote, but even they're not doing so. I definitely can't imagine it affecting Pacific nations negotiations with us for CPTPP accession either.

    The A16 process isn't being invoked, but they have legal advice saying its not necessary. IANAL so will take them at their word. That process is just a method to get from where we are to the end point though, it is the end point that matters.

    The proposed solution in the bill, the "impose a one-sided settlement" is precisely what I've suggested all along. The UK holds all the cards, we can impose a settlement because the EU is bluffing. It is true now, it was true years ago, it was true five years ago. Good on Liz Truss for calling the EU's bluff.

    I read the Bill last night, I approve of it. It is the solution I've advocated for years, there's no Irish land border, no Irish sea border, no alignment, and dual regulations. Precisely what should have always been the end game here. You were crying havoc for years that it needed to be alignment that would end this, I'm sorry you're not getting your way.

    Schrodingers NI where NI is both in the EU Single Market, and in the post-Brexit UK, simultaneously, is entirely within the principles of the Belfast Agreement. About time we have some common sense here.
    So given you like it we can be totally sure it is steaming pile of horse manure
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,501
    edited June 14
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Back onto cosplay Thatcher's "Fuck the Bill" Bill, I don't know why BR is saying "this is what I proposed" when he has endlessly demanded they invoke Article 16. This goes straight past the A16 provision in the law and seeks to impose a settlement without negotiation. Which is the precise opposite of what A16 was intended to do.

    The reality is simple - this government has demonstrated it is incapable of negotiation. So it doesn't want to invoke the A16 negotiation process as it knows it will only negotiate another settlement it doesn't understand. So fuck the bill, just impose a one-sided settlement and then claim to be an honest broker with all the people who now don't want to negotiate a coffee order with us.

    Not that it will get through the House of Lords anyway. I can see the "Enemies of the State" headlines now.

    It also has serious questions for the UK's integrity. In a few weeks, assuming the current mess isn't resolved, and I don't think it will be with the horror film clowns in charge as at present, I'd like to see polling on the wish for a border poll, and how the Alliance's policy in particular changes on the need for a border poll.
    As long as the UK government does not impose a hard border in Ireland when it is removing the border in the Irish Sea, there will be no change in the Alliance's opposition to a border poll
    Oh yes, no border at all. Good luck with that. Why do you think Mr Johnson put the one in the Irish Sea, and was so proud of it?

    More generally, the Alliance aren'tr opposed to a border poll - they just don't support it. Not the same thing. And if HMG continues to rule NI from the sole point of view of keeping the DUP happy, there will be other reasons for Alliance to change their mind. For instance, wrecking the NI economy.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 20,962
    edited June 14
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning all from Lisbon.

    All good news. Had a great first day. My ankle was the size of a balloon by the end of it, but I had walked miles and this morning it feels great. Glad I decided to bring a crutch. People very kind to people with a crutch which is nice to know, although all offers declined. I tell them I am a fraud really.

    Local paper reports queues at passport control were up to 3 hours so in hindsight I consider myself lucky and thank you PB for keeping me entertained while I waited.

    Sympathies

    Do the local papers say why the queues were so bad? Simple lack of staff? Something else?

    There are multiple reports of people jumping these queues now, across the world, by pretending to be wheelchair-bound. Perhaps you need to upgrade from your crutch
    Thanks @Leon . No idea because when we got to the front they were putting people through the EU gates and the priority gates as well and every gate was manned and going through was swift.

    I had previously said Portugal was using e-gates (because I read that). I lied. They aren't. Traditional stamping of passport being used. So don't believe anything I say in future.

    No explanation from me I am afraid. Is it just normal in peak season and we have just been spoilt by EU gates? I traveled a lot during the pandemic and was obviously spoilt by the ease of travel then.
    eGates only work if they work all the time OR you don't care about people overstaying their welcome.

    So we use them in Britain because we don't particular care how long people stay - parts of Europe however really do care so you need actual stamps in your passport to provide a secondary audit for when the eGates fail to record your arrival or departure.
    The EU really needs to get over its stamp fetish. It’s boring and retarded. Fucking stamps FFS. What is this, the 1930s?

    Computerise the whole thing, put e-gates everywhere, problem solved
    That works great until the eGate fails to send the data to the central system.

    Remember we spend a lot of time talking about 99% and 99.999% systems. Stamps on a passport are a 99.999% solution to a problem, eGates and a centralised database isn't even a 99% solution.
    You could say that about almost any automation ever. “Some dude doing it by himself by hand will be near perfect and better than letting a machine do it”

    Also, it’s bollocks. I’ve been through a lot of borders recently - EU and otherwise - and there is intense pressure on the passport-stampers to hurry up (because of these queues). No one wants to lose tourist business, no one wants an Arrivals hall full of 1000 angry people.

    My passport has many stamps, randomly distributed. I watch the passport stampers as they flick through, trying to check them all, until they inevitably sigh and tut and stamp me anyway, because they haven’t got time nor inclination to check every page as they should - esp if they want a “99.999% solution”.

    Last summer going into Switzerland a bored (no queue) passport stamper said, as she handed my passport back to me, after checking my passport thoroughly, “Oh by the way you have a problem, you were stamped in to Spain last month but not stamped out, could be an issue with the EU. Get it fixed”

    On my way out of Switzerland a week later I had time, again, to ask the new passport stamper about my problem. He looked at my passport even more carefully and said “there is no problem, you were stamped out of Spain here, look, page 13, the other woman just missed it”

    99.999% solution. Lol
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,986

    My guess is that Johnson will not be made an Order of the Garter

    Only PMs alive who are in it are Blair and Major, both of whom won general election majorities and Thatcher was in the Order too, while May and Brown are not. So on that basis Johnson should be in the Order of the Garter. The Queen I suspect would give it to him, Charles would not, William might
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 7,974

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Pioneers, the Order of the Garter was founded by Edward III, a king who was generally good and chivalrous.

    If your argument is that the 14th century was less lovely than today, then I agree. It's rather harsh, however, to judge men born into that era by modern norms. How would you like to be judged according to the moral principles of the 28th century?

    You can only judge people according to the ethics of their era. So my objection to the founder knights of the garter is specifically that we still have their order as the highest rung of an order of chivalry which seems like a massive anachronism.

    Even when we do nice things and honour people who have made a difference - Captain Tom Moore as an example - it only serves to demonstrate just how punitive the system is. Captain Moore was knighted, but made a very basic knight. With 10 ranks in the Order of Chivalry below him. Many of the people in those ranks get their gong because of who they are or the job they did, rather than because of what they have done. So Sir Tom no post-nominals because you're not worth it was a snub.
    Do you really think Sir Tom and his family felt snubbed rather than honoured when he got his knighthood?
    Hell no. Vs the majority of plebs he was honoured. But as the bottom rung gong it is a bit of a snub vs what could have been awarded. Gavin Williamson got given a higher gong than Captain Moore - for what?

    Scrap the whole charade.
    Do your job for x years and get a gong - no thanks, that should be scrapped. The civil service higher ups seem to expect it as part of the contract.

    Raise millions for charity, foster lots of kids, make a difference to peoples lives - yes, an award of some sort.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 6,615
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning all from Lisbon.

    All good news. Had a great first day. My ankle was the size of a balloon by the end of it, but I had walked miles and this morning it feels great. Glad I decided to bring a crutch. People very kind to people with a crutch which is nice to know, although all offers declined. I tell them I am a fraud really.

    Local paper reports queues at passport control were up to 3 hours so in hindsight I consider myself lucky and thank you PB for keeping me entertained while I waited.

    Sympathies

    Do the local papers say why the queues were so bad? Simple lack of staff? Something else?

    There are multiple reports of people jumping these queues now, across the world, by pretending to be wheelchair-bound. Perhaps you need to upgrade from your crutch
    Thanks @Leon . No idea because when we got to the front they were putting people through the EU gates and the priority gates as well and every gate was manned and going through was swift.

    I had previously said Portugal was using e-gates (because I read that). I lied. They aren't. Traditional stamping of passport being used. So don't believe anything I say in future.

    No explanation from me I am afraid. Is it just normal in peak season and we have just been spoilt by EU gates? I traveled a lot during the pandemic and was obviously spoilt by the ease of travel then.
    eGates only work if they work all the time OR you don't care about people overstaying their welcome.

    So we use them in Britain because we don't particular care how long people stay - parts of Europe however really do care so you need actual stamps in your passport to provide a secondary audit for when the eGates fail to record your arrival or departure.
    The EU really needs to get over its stamp fetish. It’s boring and retarded. Fucking stamps FFS. What is this, the 1930s?

    Computerise the whole thing, put e-gates everywhere, problem solved
    That works great until the eGate fails to send the data to the central system.

    Remember we spend a lot of time talking about 99% and 99.999% systems. Stamps on a passport are a 99.999% solution to a problem, eGates and a centralised database isn't even a 99% solution.
    And of course if you are the 0.001% failure you could get deported on your next trip.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,193
    DavidL said:

    Better economic news: https://news.sky.com/story/president-macron-will-be-choking-on-his-croissants-as-uk-beats-france-for-tech-investment-12633086?dicbo=v2-a81132f3ce614508cdfa710e7d82cb42

    Putting aside the frankly childish nonsense in the headline money is pouring into UK tech at a rate that will certainly help growth in the future. I just hope some of this investment is outside London.

    Good one
  • TimmycoolTimmycool Posts: 9


    But where are the convincing videos and photos? The irrefutable radar data, infra red signals, and the rest?



    Leon - you are absolutely right. What did we have in the 50's? Blurry photos at the limit of detection. What do we have in the 2020's blurry photo's (and IR, and Radar etc.) at the limit of detection. Ergo, they don't exist. Given the increase in technology over those 70 years you'd think at least one of them would be caught in focus, but no. Unexplained anomalies, yes. Unexplainable anomalies, no.

    Substitute 'Ghosts', 'God' or 'Bigfoot' for UFO's - same thing.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 36,851

    My guess is that Johnson will not be made an Order of the Garter

    And as a Scot shouldn't Blair have been invested as a Knight of the Thistle?
    Scottish my arse
  • LeonLeon Posts: 20,962

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    @Leon On the other thing, you were right the first time:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/06/13/head-nasa-taking-ufos-seriously/

    Bill Nelson, the former space shuttle astronaut and US senator, said he had personally talked to two Navy pilots who saw numerous flying objects in 2004, and had turned over the investigation to Nasa’s top scientist.

    “We're taking this very seriously,” he told a briefing of science journalists.

    “I've talked to the Navy pilots that know that they saw something back in 2004. They tracked it on their radar off the Southern California coast, over the Pacific.

    “Since then hundreds of objects have been spotted and a couple of them were explained, they may be balloons, but most of them are unexplained.

    “So I’ve asked Nasa, and it will be announced within a few days, to approach this subject from a scientific standpoint, since we are a scientific research organisation. In about eight months, they’re going to report.”

    Asked whether he thought the sightings could be enemy aircraft, the Nasa administrator added: “Do I think it's an enemy? I hope it isn't, because the Navy pilots would describe it as: 'It's here and then it's over there. With no time in between.'

    “And so my simple answer is I don't know. And that's why I've asked our scientists to see if they've got any explanation.”

    But where are the convincing videos and photos? The irrefutable radar data, infra red signals, and the rest?

    They seemingly don’t exist, and even some of the desperately feeble videos we do have - the pyramids (bokeh) - have now been debunked

    And yet, something is up in US military and political circles, which has to be explained. For the moment I stand by my belief that it is post-plague, China-exacerbated paranoia being used by others, with perhaps a core of true believers. That’s the best I can do; it is not satisfactory but no explanation is

    On the other hand it does feel like several storylines are coming together at once. The revelation that DNA can arise spontaneously with great ease, the fact we are approaching AI, it all points to life in the universe being much more abundant than we thought, and if it is abundant then planets would be sending out AI probes and one or more of them will find, or have found, us. So I don;t rule out UFOs either

    Good morning from a warm, stormy Yerevan
    "The revelation that DNA can arise spontaneously with great ease," - missed that one? Where was that from? A revamped Miller-Urey type experiment?
    @rcs1000 posted it. Let me have a quick Goog

    https://www.iflscience.com/spontaneous-formation-of-rna-on-volcanic-glass-could-explain-lifes-origins-63944

    https://interestingengineering.com/researchers-think-theyve-found-how-earliest-building-blocks-of-life-formed-on-earth-and-maybe-mars
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,986
    Heathener said:

    I also mention something more anecfactual.

    I am fond of talking about the LibDem chances because they are the ones best represented in my area for defeating the Conservatives, despite the fact that I would naturally vote Labour if they had a better chance. It is a long time since I felt such an anti-tory force within me and I believe this to be truer now than at anytime since 1992-7, not just for me but for many others..

    I believe that pollsters may be chronically under-estimating organic tactical voting and that's bad news for the Conservatives.

    Horse posted best PM figures yesterday of Starmer 41% and Sunak 31% and Starmer 38% and Johnson 33%. So removing Johnson might bring a 1997 style result closer than keeping him in place now
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,986
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Back onto cosplay Thatcher's "Fuck the Bill" Bill, I don't know why BR is saying "this is what I proposed" when he has endlessly demanded they invoke Article 16. This goes straight past the A16 provision in the law and seeks to impose a settlement without negotiation. Which is the precise opposite of what A16 was intended to do.

    The reality is simple - this government has demonstrated it is incapable of negotiation. So it doesn't want to invoke the A16 negotiation process as it knows it will only negotiate another settlement it doesn't understand. So fuck the bill, just impose a one-sided settlement and then claim to be an honest broker with all the people who now don't want to negotiate a coffee order with us.

    Not that it will get through the House of Lords anyway. I can see the "Enemies of the State" headlines now.

    It also has serious questions for the UK's integrity. In a few weeks, assuming the current mess isn't resolved, and I don't think it will be with the horror film clowns in charge as at present, I'd like to see polling on the wish for a border poll, and how the Alliance's policy in particular changes on the need for a border poll.
    As long as the UK government does not impose a hard border in Ireland when it is removing the border in the Irish Sea, there will be no change in the Alliance's opposition to a border poll
    Oh yes, no border at all. Good luck with that. Why do you think Mr Johnson put the one in the Irish Sea, and was so proud of it?

    More generally, the Alliance aren'tr opposed to a border poll - they just don't support it. Not the same thing. And if HMG continues to rule NI from the sole point of view of keeping the DUP happy, there will be other reasons for Alliance to change their mind. For instance, wrecking the NI economy.
    As long as there is no hard border in Ireland the NI economy will be fine.

    There is no way the UK government is going to do that
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 34,892
    DavidL said:

    Better economic news: https://news.sky.com/story/president-macron-will-be-choking-on-his-croissants-as-uk-beats-france-for-tech-investment-12633086?dicbo=v2-a81132f3ce614508cdfa710e7d82cb42

    Putting aside the frankly childish nonsense in the headline money is pouring into UK tech at a rate that will certainly help growth in the future. I just hope some of this investment is outside London.

    Liverpool is becoming the secondary city of choice. Close to a big transatlantic airport, very cheap office space, lower wage structure, big universities nearby. There's also an aspect of people now wanting to move there because it's extremely cheap for housing compared to London, a £50-60k mid level developer salary will buy a pretty big house vs renting a small flat in London.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 20,962
    Timmycool said:



    But where are the convincing videos and photos? The irrefutable radar data, infra red signals, and the rest?



    Leon - you are absolutely right. What did we have in the 50's? Blurry photos at the limit of detection. What do we have in the 2020's blurry photo's (and IR, and Radar etc.) at the limit of detection. Ergo, they don't exist. Given the increase in technology over those 70 years you'd think at least one of them would be caught in focus, but no. Unexplained anomalies, yes. Unexplainable anomalies, no.

    Substitute 'Ghosts', 'God' or 'Bigfoot' for UFO's - same thing.

    But then you have to explain why large parts of the American military-political Establishment has decided to take this very seriously, from ex-presidents (Obama) to various senators, intel bigwigs, NASA, airforce generals, top journalists, the New York Times and Washington Post, Congress, and so on

    Is it some ginormous psyops to freak the Chinese? Does that make sense? Not really, So if it is not that, then what?

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,965
    Off topic

    Liz Truss confirms the Rwanda flight will take off even if there is only one asylum seeker on board, there are currently seven and falling.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 44,871
    I love collecting stamps in my passport.

    Main objection is that too many of the stamps are too boring.

    More variety of stamps please, and colours.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 2,375
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Back onto cosplay Thatcher's "Fuck the Bill" Bill, I don't know why BR is saying "this is what I proposed" when he has endlessly demanded they invoke Article 16. This goes straight past the A16 provision in the law and seeks to impose a settlement without negotiation. Which is the precise opposite of what A16 was intended to do.

    The reality is simple - this government has demonstrated it is incapable of negotiation. So it doesn't want to invoke the A16 negotiation process as it knows it will only negotiate another settlement it doesn't understand. So fuck the bill, just impose a one-sided settlement and then claim to be an honest broker with all the people who now don't want to negotiate a coffee order with us.

    Not that it will get through the House of Lords anyway. I can see the "Enemies of the State" headlines now.

    It also has serious questions for the UK's integrity. In a few weeks, assuming the current mess isn't resolved, and I don't think it will be with the horror film clowns in charge as at present, I'd like to see polling on the wish for a border poll, and how the Alliance's policy in particular changes on the need for a border poll.
    As long as the UK government does not impose a hard border in Ireland when it is removing the border in the Irish Sea, there will be no change in the Alliance's opposition to a border poll
    Oh yes, no border at all. Good luck with that. Why do you think Mr Johnson put the one in the Irish Sea, and was so proud of it?

    More generally, the Alliance aren'tr opposed to a border poll - they just don't support it. Not the same thing. And if HMG continues to rule NI from the sole point of view of keeping the DUP happy, there will be other reasons for Alliance to change their mind. For instance, wrecking the NI economy.
    As long as there is no hard border in Ireland the NI economy will be fine.

    There is no way the UK government is going to do that
    The NI economy is doing very well at the moment, it's only the DUP and other unionists who are in a strop because they see the present situation as the thin end of the wedge toward reunification anyway.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,986
    HYUFD said:

    My guess is that Johnson will not be made an Order of the Garter

    Only PMs alive who are in it are Blair and Major, both of whom won general election majorities and Thatcher was in the Order too, while May and Brown are not. So on that basis Johnson should be in the Order of the Garter. The Queen I suspect would give it to him, Charles would not, William might
    Forgot Cameron who isn't in it yet, if he does join then would be hard to refuse Johnson
This discussion has been closed.