Very impressive light show. In a country with this level of creativity who could have thought it a smart idea to make Nadine Dorries Minister of Culture?
One of my wife's more bizarre nights was going to a Diana Ross concert in LA. (Reluctantly - a friend took her.) She did a song - then her friend shouts out "the writer is here!" "Where? C'mon up girl!" says Diana.
Mortified, my wife had to clamber past being back slapped by Berry Gordy and god knows what Motown royalty. Helped up on stage, she got a great big hug from Diana, who then asked her about the inspiration for writing it...
If all of this happens in 10 years time are we going to show case more modern artists or will the producers be going down the Abba hologram route? Diana Ross is doing her best but her voice is barely up to it.
Why on Earth would anyone assume Stephen Fry was a Republican? Show your working there.
Good friends with Christopher Hitchens, who described Charles as 'bat eared' and an enabler of radical Islam. And brother Peter describes Fry as a far-left 'trot' with a posh accent. I just put two and two together.
Nope he is what I would term a practical monarchist. He basically believes constitutional monarchies are a bit daft but they work and are better than the alternatives.
One of my wife's more bizarre nights was going to a Diana Ross concert in LA. (Reluctantly - a friend took her.) She did a song - then her friend shouts out "the writer is here!" "Where? C'mon up girl!" says Diana.
Mortified, my wife had to clamber past being back slapped by Berry Gordy and god knows what Motown royalty. Helped up on stage, she got a great big hug from Diana, who then asked her about the inspiration for writing it...
Your wife wrote a song for Diana Ross? Blimey. Respect.
Why on Earth would anyone assume Stephen Fry was a Republican? Show your working there.
Good friends with Christopher Hitchens, who described Charles as 'bat eared' and an enabler of radical Islam. And brother Peter describes Fry as a far-left 'trot' with a posh accent. I just put two and two together.
Good friends with Chris and thought an idiot by Pete. That equals a quality bloke in my book.
One of my wife's more bizarre nights was going to a Diana Ross concert in LA. (Reluctantly - a friend took her.) She did a song - then her friend shouts out "the writer is here!" "Where? C'mon up girl!" says Diana.
Mortified, my wife had to clamber past being back slapped by Berry Gordy and god knows what Motown royalty. Helped up on stage, she got a great big hug from Diana, who then asked her about the inspiration for writing it...
Your wife wrote a song for Diana Ross? Blimey. Respect.
Not sure what's funnier - Wakefield going 20 points to Labour or HY saying that Wakefield Tory voters who elected them in 2019 weren't real Tories and that the party didn't need the seat or the 80 majority etc etc etc
Wakefield is the 38th Labour target seat, technically the Tories could lose Wakefield and still win a small majority.
Lose Tiverton and Honiton however at a general election and the Tories would face an even worse landslide defeat than 1997
Wakefield is no metropolitan liberal elite northern seat - it's your new base.
It isn't, Bishop Auckland or Grimsby might be our new base, not Wakefield
Feck me. The high street in Wakey is grimmer than the one in Bish.
And the Bish constituency includes the trad Tory areas of Teesdale.
One of my wife's more bizarre nights was going to a Diana Ross concert in LA. (Reluctantly - a friend took her.) She did a song - then her friend shouts out "the writer is here!" "Where? C'mon up girl!" says Diana.
Mortified, my wife had to clamber past being back slapped by Berry Gordy and god knows what Motown royalty. Helped up on stage, she got a great big hug from Diana, who then asked her about the inspiration for writing it...
Well, I turned off after Rod Stewart and Dura Duran, as I thought both were embarrassingly dire. Just turned back on to catch Diana Ross, and thought - well, at least she's got some great songs. I gather the whole thing was a bit of a mixed bag. Who paid for it all, out of curiosity?
If all of this happens in 10 years time are we going to show case more modern artists or will the producers be going down the Abba hologram route? Diana Ross is doing her best but her voice is barely up to it.
It won't happen in 10 years time as sadly the Queen will probably be dead and King Charles will be on the throne who will probably also be dead before he even gets to a Silver Jubilee let alone Platinum Jubilee.
Indeed we probably have to wait for King William to get to our next Jubilee, much as Edward VIIth, Edward VIIIth and George VIth never got a Jubilee nor will Charles most likely
That comes a day after hearing Scott played a gig in support of The Shamen. Bloody hell. I once went on all day bender with Bez if I need to assert the bare minimum site rock n roll cred.
The BBC will have spent god knows how many thousands of hours organizing the outside broadcasts for this weekend's events.
I know Nadine hates them, but does the average tory member really want the Beeb to be reduced to the point that they will not be able to do this kind of national event any more?
I don't think so. I suspect the Beeb is more popular amongst tory members than wider population.
Reshuffle her out.
I mean no one had ever said the BBC shouldn't exist, just that a tax to pay for it by threat of imprisonment doesn't work in the age of Netflix and YouTube....
I didn't say it wouldn't exist but it would be shrunk.
That comes a day after hearing Scott played a gig in support of The Shamen. Bloody hell. I once went on all day bender with Bez if I need to assert the minimal site rock n roll cred.
Doesn't really work unless you know who Bez is. Who's Bez?
Well, I turned off after Rod Stewart and Dura Duran, as I thought both were embarrassingly dire. Just turned back on to catch Diana Ross, and thought - well, at least she's got some great songs. I gather the whole thing was a bit of a mixed bag. Who paid for it all, out of curiosity?
It was paid for by exploiting the workers! By hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. If there's ever going to be any progress..
I haven't heard that argument for abolishing the licence fee before.
Actually +8 for Labour is pretty abysmal. This is pointing to a poor mid term by election for Labour if they take the seat on basis of stay at home till general election Tory votes, not getting much more than 8% from switchers themselves.
Tell me I’m wrong.
But without switchers, without much improvement in labours vote from last time, it’s not painting a convincing red wall picture for Labour, as indeed the locals were a mixed bag across the red wall.
The key number is Conservative down 18. As we saw in the locals and mirrored in Australia, the collapse of the centre-right isn't being matched by a consequent rise in the centre-left but by disillusioned voters seeking out other alternatives. The 13% swing will still look good for Labour if that's what happened.
I'm increasingly of the view the fragmentation of the Conservative vote will, even under FPTP, help any other party or independent who can establish themselves as the clear alternative.
The truth is, Labor in Australia suffered similar loss of votes to non establishment places, the 1pp Lab share was below every poll except the one we were thinking was a rough poll but turned out with lowest labour share and government win by 3% on 1pp most accurate. The same thing happening in France, in extreme way. So to that extent I am agreeing with you, lost votes for Tories hurt them, tactical voting hurts them - also as a by product, those calling for labour double digit or 20% polling leads as necessary are wrong in this new era of diverse polling.
However, where I think you are wrong is two fold. Firstly, this is a labour/Tory battleground seat, bellwether, not much presence from other parties to make a difference - in the Aussie comparison Wakefield would not be a teal win helpful for Labour, it would be a Lab target indicative of where we are today on their battlefield for seat total for themself!
Which supports me in what I am saying, do we measure what course labour are on this mid term by the number of Tory’s staying at home handing labour seat, or by the % the Lab share grows due to switching? I think the latter, gap between parties would disappoint me here if I was a leader here, if our own stock isn’t rising the gap is merely Boris unpopularity. Why. Because it would give me no assurance I’m on course.
Stay at home vote is a different thing than switched vote, it’s softer, change of Tory leader the softer stay at home vote could swing back. To get excited about gap back to a collapsed Tory share would be immature pesodolphinolgy here if the truth is a huge soft vote prone to swingback.
To what extent it is disillusion with Boris or the Tories remains the big question. Not sure. But I doubt simply changing the leader without altering the attitude, tone or addressing the absence of any discernible direction or coherent plan is quite a magic bullet.
we could be surprised how much of a magic bullet removing the Boris shaped anchor now is in places like Tivi and the red wall and the opinion polls - that’s our PB job isn’t it, the pseudoasophagusology to look at the result from Wakefield and say “Nah. Far too much anti Boris hand sitting, not enough labour votes on - this wins soft as cream to Tory leader change.”
Alternatively, even with a smaller gap between parties, clear evidence of Con to Lab support lifting the Labour share would leave us more assured Labour could be making red wall recovery regardless of change of leader.
Colour me unconvinced Labour winning Wakefield means much at all, I’ll explain why, correct me where I am wrong.
Firstly, what was so special about Boris winning the red wall? I would answer zilch, absolutely nothing. Someone else could be associated with listening to these globalisation ravaged communities for the first time in decades, someone else could promise them levelling up, and achieve that same result as Boris, it wasn’t him but the message, the not taking you for granted but levelling you up with influx of investment flipped the votes from Labour - this is why these red wall communities voted for both Brexit and Boris - not for Boris, but for hope, for change.
If I am right, how do Labour fight back? The answers obvious, they need to match the promises of investment, they need to offer the same hope. They need to offer change they didn’t deliver in the past.
Have Labour been doing this? Nope.
Why should you win back the red wall from Tories by doing nothing?
Replacing the ridiculous Johnson, the Tory’s still have the red wall vote - it’s not personal to Johnson, if it’s based on levelling up investment and hope for better future, it’s personal to Brexit. If Labour continue with their do nothing approach this will take years to unwind itself.
One important caveat, though.
In 2019, there wasn't a Green candidate in Wakefield; this poll puts the Greens on 8 % this time round. One picture of the churn is a Con to Lab swing of about 16 points, with Labour then dropping 8 points to the Greens further left.
It's almost certainly not as neat as that, but it highlights the huge impact local factors can have.
(It's interesting to speculate what Red Wall Voters want; given that they tend to be older and comfortably off- sterotypically retired and with the mortgage on their Right to Buy houses paid off- is it more change, less change or reversed change that will appeal most?)
We don't know which voters have switched how. I'd guess it's Con down 16 points, with 8 points going to Labour and 8 points going Green. There are lots of people who will vote Green as a NOTA party. I don't think the general electorate see the Green Party as to the left of Labour.
No, I think that about half of the Green vote is Corbynite youngsters who dislike Starmer. Think of it as a more sophisticated version of BJO.
I think about half of the Green *party*, perhaps, are Corbynite youngsters who dislike Starmer, but the Green electoral success at the recent local elections often seems to have been a protest vote in Conservative areas. I posit a lot of the Green vote is like the Teal independents in Australia, even if the party is more left-wing.
Well, I turned off after Rod Stewart and Dura Duran, as I thought both were embarrassingly dire. Just turned back on to catch Diana Ross, and thought - well, at least she's got some great songs. I gather the whole thing was a bit of a mixed bag. Who paid for it all, out of curiosity?
It was paid for by exploiting the workers! By hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. If there's ever going to be any progress..
Well if thoughts like that are still present in the Labour leadership we Tories could win again yet.
Sir Keir will have to keep whinging, unpatriotic, far left Republicans like you firmly locked in the cupboard during the general election campaign
Why on Earth would anyone assume Stephen Fry was a Republican? Show your working there.
Good friends with Christopher Hitchens, who described Charles as 'bat eared' and an enabler of radical Islam. And brother Peter describes Fry as a far-left 'trot' with a posh accent. I just put two and two together.
Good friends with Chris and thought an idiot by Pete. That equals a quality bloke in my book.
Peter's views are on every single subject the exact opposite of Christopher's. I think that explains it completely. It's just family dynamics.
That comes a day after hearing Scott played a gig in support of The Shamen. Bloody hell. I once went on all day bender with Bez if I need to assert the bare minimum site rock n roll cred.
I helped found a band that had its name praised by Jo Whiley on Radio 1.
Well, I turned off after Rod Stewart and Dura Duran, as I thought both were embarrassingly dire. Just turned back on to catch Diana Ross, and thought - well, at least she's got some great songs. I gather the whole thing was a bit of a mixed bag. Who paid for it all, out of curiosity?
It was paid for by exploiting the workers! By hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. If there's ever going to be any progress..
Real supreme executive power springs from a mandate from the masses, not some farcical aquatic ritual...
That comes a day after hearing Scott played a gig in support of The Shamen. Bloody hell. I once went on all day bender with Bez if I need to assert the minimal site rock n roll cred.
Doesn't really work unless you know who Bez is. Who's Bez?
Are you after an elevation to the High Court bench? Who's Bez?
I am usually quite sympathetic to the monarchy but I found the concert a bit Orwell Ian.
It's not really about them, it's about us. The monarchical milestones just gives an excuse for many to have a bit of a fun, silly time who might not otherwise, since we're so reserved and awkward about everything.
That comes a day after hearing Scott played a gig in support of The Shamen. Bloody hell. I once went on all day bender with Bez if I need to assert the minimal site rock n roll cred.
Doesn't really work unless you know who Bez is. Who's Bez?
Are you after an elevation to the High Court bench? Who's Bez?
Ha, genuine ignorance on my part. Google has solved the riddle for me.
That comes a day after hearing Scott played a gig in support of The Shamen. Bloody hell. I once went on all day bender with Bez if I need to assert the minimal site rock n roll cred.
Doesn't really work unless you know who Bez is. Who's Bez?
Are you after an elevation to the High Court bench? Who's Bez?
You went on a bender with Bez and are still alive?
That comes a day after hearing Scott played a gig in support of The Shamen. Bloody hell. I once went on all day bender with Bez if I need to assert the bare minimum site rock n roll cred.
I helped found a band that had its name praised by Jo Whiley on Radio 1.
I was at Medical School with the bassist of Anarcho-punk band "Thatcher on Acid".
Well, I turned off after Rod Stewart and Dura Duran, as I thought both were embarrassingly dire. Just turned back on to catch Diana Ross, and thought - well, at least she's got some great songs. I gather the whole thing was a bit of a mixed bag. Who paid for it all, out of curiosity?
It was paid for by exploiting the workers! By hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. If there's ever going to be any progress..
Well if thoughts like that are still present in the Labour leadership we Tories could win again yet.
Sir Keir will have to keep whinging, unpatriotic, far left Republicans like you firmly locked in the cupboard during the general election campaign
I'd rather be locked in a cupboard than stuck in a fridge during a GE though, so there's that.
That comes a day after hearing Scott played a gig in support of The Shamen. Bloody hell. I once went on all day bender with Bez if I need to assert the minimal site rock n roll cred.
Doesn't really work unless you know who Bez is. Who's Bez?
Are you after an elevation to the High Court bench? Who's Bez?
Bez makes/made SeanT look like a vicarage tea party trainee.
That comes a day after hearing Scott played a gig in support of The Shamen. Bloody hell. I once went on all day bender with Bez if I need to assert the minimal site rock n roll cred.
Doesn't really work unless you know who Bez is. Who's Bez?
Are you after an elevation to the High Court bench? Who's Bez?
You went on a bender with Bez and are still alive?
Wow.
Christ alone knows how. First mushrooms. He's a lovely, charismatic bloke. With a side to him.
Well, I turned off after Rod Stewart and Dura Duran, as I thought both were embarrassingly dire. Just turned back on to catch Diana Ross, and thought - well, at least she's got some great songs. I gather the whole thing was a bit of a mixed bag. Who paid for it all, out of curiosity?
It was paid for by exploiting the workers! By hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. If there's ever going to be any progress..
Real supreme executive power springs from a mandate from the masses, not some farcical aquatic ritual...
The BBC will have spent god knows how many thousands of hours organizing the outside broadcasts for this weekend's events.
I know Nadine hates them, but does the average tory member really want the Beeb to be reduced to the point that they will not be able to do this kind of national event any more?
I don't think so. I suspect the Beeb is more popular amongst tory members than wider population.
Reshuffle her out.
The BBC has always been there for these national events and people don’t appreciate what they have until it’s gone. No 10 is actively trying to destroy it . I hope this becomes an election issue given those who love the beeb the most also tend to be strongly represented in the over 65s which just happen to be more likely to vote Tory .
Make no mistake if the BBC becomes a subscription service that will be the end of it . All those cheering on the demise of the BBC should see the state of national broadcasters in other countries.
The clueless fxcking clown Dorries is on a vendetta against any organization that doesn’t worship at the altar of The Dear Leader!
Sure enough Sir Keir declares it was a privilege to be at the Party at the Palace this evening, a great celebration of the Queen and made him proud to be British!
The BBC will have spent god knows how many thousands of hours organizing the outside broadcasts for this weekend's events.
I know Nadine hates them, but does the average tory member really want the Beeb to be reduced to the point that they will not be able to do this kind of national event any more?
I don't think so. I suspect the Beeb is more popular amongst tory members than wider population.
Reshuffle her out.
The BBC has always been there for these national events and people don’t appreciate what they have until it’s gone. No 10 is actively trying to destroy it . I hope this becomes an election issue given those who love the beeb the most also tend to be strongly represented in the over 65s which just happen to be more likely to vote Tory .
Make no mistake if the BBC becomes a subscription service that will be the end of it . All those cheering on the demise of the BBC should see the state of national broadcasters in other countries.
The clueless fxcking clown Dorries is on a vendetta against any organization that doesn’t worship at the altar of The Dear Leader!
I think the answer is to get rid of the licence fee and pay for the BBC out of general taxation. It won't stop the haters from hating but it will undermine a lot of the argument about people being forced to pay a specific fee for something they don't use. Lots of people pay for things they never use via general taxation. But it is the impression of being forced to pay a specific fee for something they either do not use or do not agree with that irks some people.
The subscription route is, I agree with you, not practical or warranted for a national broadcaster.
And yes Dorries should be dropped down a well. But that is not specifically because of the BBC. Just a general principle.
The BBC will have spent god knows how many thousands of hours organizing the outside broadcasts for this weekend's events.
I know Nadine hates them, but does the average tory member really want the Beeb to be reduced to the point that they will not be able to do this kind of national event any more?
I don't think so. I suspect the Beeb is more popular amongst tory members than wider population.
Reshuffle her out.
The BBC has always been there for these national events and people don’t appreciate what they have until it’s gone. No 10 is actively trying to destroy it . I hope this becomes an election issue given those who love the beeb the most also tend to be strongly represented in the over 65s which just happen to be more likely to vote Tory .
Make no mistake if the BBC becomes a subscription service that will be the end of it . All those cheering on the demise of the BBC should see the state of national broadcasters in other countries.
The clueless fxcking clown Dorries is on a vendetta against any organization that doesn’t worship at the altar of The Dear Leader!
The BBC will have spent god knows how many thousands of hours organizing the outside broadcasts for this weekend's events.
I know Nadine hates them, but does the average tory member really want the Beeb to be reduced to the point that they will not be able to do this kind of national event any more?
I don't think so. I suspect the Beeb is more popular amongst tory members than wider population.
Reshuffle her out.
The BBC has always been there for these national events and people don’t appreciate what they have until it’s gone. No 10 is actively trying to destroy it . I hope this becomes an election issue given those who love the beeb the most also tend to be strongly represented in the over 65s which just happen to be more likely to vote Tory .
Make no mistake if the BBC becomes a subscription service that will be the end of it . All those cheering on the demise of the BBC should see the state of national broadcasters in other countries.
The clueless fxcking clown Dorries is on a vendetta against any organization that doesn’t worship at the altar of The Dear Leader!
You can rant and rave about Boris and the government all you like but the fact is it's actually the young generation that has sealed the fate of the BBC.
The Netflix, YouTube and Amazon Prime generation just aren't prepared to pay the licence fee when there's so many other alternatives.
The best thing the BBC and it's supporters can do right now is embrace a new funding model that keeps *most* of the corporation in tact before it becomes so irrelevant a future Con government just says to scrap everything...
The BBC will have spent god knows how many thousands of hours organizing the outside broadcasts for this weekend's events.
I know Nadine hates them, but does the average tory member really want the Beeb to be reduced to the point that they will not be able to do this kind of national event any more?
I don't think so. I suspect the Beeb is more popular amongst tory members than wider population.
Reshuffle her out.
The BBC has always been there for these national events and people don’t appreciate what they have until it’s gone. No 10 is actively trying to destroy it . I hope this becomes an election issue given those who love the beeb the most also tend to be strongly represented in the over 65s which just happen to be more likely to vote Tory .
Make no mistake if the BBC becomes a subscription service that will be the end of it . All those cheering on the demise of the BBC should see the state of national broadcasters in other countries.
The clueless fxcking clown Dorries is on a vendetta against any organization that doesn’t worship at the altar of The Dear Leader!
I think the answer is to get rid of the licence fee and pay for the BBC out of general taxation. It won't stop the haters from hating but it will undermine a lot of the argument about people being forced to pay a specific fee for something they don't use. Lots of people pay for things they never use via general taxation. But it is the impression of being forced to pay a specific fee for something they either do not use or do not agree with that irks some people.
The subscription route is, I agree with you, not practical or warranted for a national broadcaster.
And yes Dorries should be dropped down a well. But that is not specifically because of the BBC. Just a general principle.
The BBC will have spent god knows how many thousands of hours organizing the outside broadcasts for this weekend's events.
I know Nadine hates them, but does the average tory member really want the Beeb to be reduced to the point that they will not be able to do this kind of national event any more?
I don't think so. I suspect the Beeb is more popular amongst tory members than wider population.
Reshuffle her out.
The BBC has always been there for these national events and people don’t appreciate what they have until it’s gone. No 10 is actively trying to destroy it . I hope this becomes an election issue given those who love the beeb the most also tend to be strongly represented in the over 65s which just happen to be more likely to vote Tory .
Make no mistake if the BBC becomes a subscription service that will be the end of it . All those cheering on the demise of the BBC should see the state of national broadcasters in other countries.
The clueless fxcking clown Dorries is on a vendetta against any organization that doesn’t worship at the altar of The Dear Leader!
I think the answer is to get rid of the licence fee and pay for the BBC out of general taxation. It won't stop the haters from hating but it will undermine a lot of the argument about people being forced to pay a specific fee for something they don't use. Lots of people pay for things they never use via general taxation. But it is the impression of being forced to pay a specific fee for something they either do not use or do not agree with that irks some people.
The subscription route is, I agree with you, not practical or warranted for a national broadcaster.
And yes Dorries should be dropped down a well. But that is not specifically because of the BBC. Just a general principle.
That would be my preference too. On the Beeb, I mean. With Nad I'd settle for a return to the backbenches.
The BBC will have spent god knows how many thousands of hours organizing the outside broadcasts for this weekend's events.
I know Nadine hates them, but does the average tory member really want the Beeb to be reduced to the point that they will not be able to do this kind of national event any more?
I don't think so. I suspect the Beeb is more popular amongst tory members than wider population.
Reshuffle her out.
The BBC has always been there for these national events and people don’t appreciate what they have until it’s gone. No 10 is actively trying to destroy it . I hope this becomes an election issue given those who love the beeb the most also tend to be strongly represented in the over 65s which just happen to be more likely to vote Tory .
Make no mistake if the BBC becomes a subscription service that will be the end of it . All those cheering on the demise of the BBC should see the state of national broadcasters in other countries.
The clueless fxcking clown Dorries is on a vendetta against any organization that doesn’t worship at the altar of The Dear Leader!
I think the answer is to get rid of the licence fee and pay for the BBC out of general taxation. It won't stop the haters from hating but it will undermine a lot of the argument about people being forced to pay a specific fee for something they don't use. Lots of people pay for things they never use via general taxation. But it is the impression of being forced to pay a specific fee for something they either do not use or do not agree with that irks some people.
The subscription route is, I agree with you, not practical or warranted for a national broadcaster.
And yes Dorries should be dropped down a well. But that is not specifically because of the BBC. Just a general principle.
Agreed on all points.
Nearly. I think the subscription model could work well outside these Isles, though there be some licensing issues.
The BBC will have spent god knows how many thousands of hours organizing the outside broadcasts for this weekend's events.
I know Nadine hates them, but does the average tory member really want the Beeb to be reduced to the point that they will not be able to do this kind of national event any more?
I don't think so. I suspect the Beeb is more popular amongst tory members than wider population.
Reshuffle her out.
The BBC has always been there for these national events and people don’t appreciate what they have until it’s gone. No 10 is actively trying to destroy it . I hope this becomes an election issue given those who love the beeb the most also tend to be strongly represented in the over 65s which just happen to be more likely to vote Tory .
Make no mistake if the BBC becomes a subscription service that will be the end of it . All those cheering on the demise of the BBC should see the state of national broadcasters in other countries.
The clueless fxcking clown Dorries is on a vendetta against any organization that doesn’t worship at the altar of The Dear Leader!
I think the answer is to get rid of the licence fee and pay for the BBC out of general taxation. It won't stop the haters from hating but it will undermine a lot of the argument about people being forced to pay a specific fee for something they don't use. Lots of people pay for things they never use via general taxation. But it is the impression of being forced to pay a specific fee for something they either do not use or do not agree with that irks some people.
The subscription route is, I agree with you, not practical or warranted for a national broadcaster.
And yes Dorries should be dropped down a well. But that is not specifically because of the BBC. Just a general principle.
That would be my preference too. On the Beeb, I mean. With Nad I'd settle for a return to the backbenches.
You're just worried she would climb back out again like that woman in Ringu.
The BBC will have spent god knows how many thousands of hours organizing the outside broadcasts for this weekend's events.
I know Nadine hates them, but does the average tory member really want the Beeb to be reduced to the point that they will not be able to do this kind of national event any more?
I don't think so. I suspect the Beeb is more popular amongst tory members than wider population.
Reshuffle her out.
The BBC has always been there for these national events and people don’t appreciate what they have until it’s gone. No 10 is actively trying to destroy it . I hope this becomes an election issue given those who love the beeb the most also tend to be strongly represented in the over 65s which just happen to be more likely to vote Tory .
Make no mistake if the BBC becomes a subscription service that will be the end of it . All those cheering on the demise of the BBC should see the state of national broadcasters in other countries.
The clueless fxcking clown Dorries is on a vendetta against any organization that doesn’t worship at the altar of The Dear Leader!
I think the answer is to get rid of the licence fee and pay for the BBC out of general taxation. It won't stop the haters from hating but it will undermine a lot of the argument about people being forced to pay a specific fee for something they don't use. Lots of people pay for things they never use via general taxation. But it is the impression of being forced to pay a specific fee for something they either do not use or do not agree with that irks some people.
The subscription route is, I agree with you, not practical or warranted for a national broadcaster.
And yes Dorries should be dropped down a well. But that is not specifically because of the BBC. Just a general principle.
That would be my preference too. On the Beeb, I mean. With Nad I'd settle for a return to the backbenches.
I actually agree with @Richard_Tyndall completely including the well bit.
Very impressive light show. In a country with this level of creativity who could have thought it a smart idea to make Nadine Dorries Minister of Culture?
Give it a rest
Why? She's a fucking minister, and she's thicker than the Jones section of Welsh phone book. We should be pointing this out every single hour she has any kind of power. There should be a siren going off in the centre of every city to remind us. Give it a rest? Yeah, when she's given a rest from being the first pantomime horse with two back ends to ever attend cabinet.
I don't think that MP's are thick. Some slip through the net, but they are generally labour MP's. Certainly not Dorries. She is engaged in a performance designed to make you mad, and you all fall for it. Being a conservative in charge of culture, most people you deal with will just hate you from the outset and make your job impossible. The political opportunity is to present yourself as being on the side of the masses against these elites. But it is on a subject that the masses aren't really interested in. So you have to keep engaging in more and more extreme acts of publicity to have any impact. That is what she is doing.
The BBC will have spent god knows how many thousands of hours organizing the outside broadcasts for this weekend's events.
I know Nadine hates them, but does the average tory member really want the Beeb to be reduced to the point that they will not be able to do this kind of national event any more?
I don't think so. I suspect the Beeb is more popular amongst tory members than wider population.
Reshuffle her out.
The BBC has always been there for these national events and people don’t appreciate what they have until it’s gone. No 10 is actively trying to destroy it . I hope this becomes an election issue given those who love the beeb the most also tend to be strongly represented in the over 65s which just happen to be more likely to vote Tory .
Make no mistake if the BBC becomes a subscription service that will be the end of it . All those cheering on the demise of the BBC should see the state of national broadcasters in other countries.
The clueless fxcking clown Dorries is on a vendetta against any organization that doesn’t worship at the altar of The Dear Leader!
I think the answer is to get rid of the licence fee and pay for the BBC out of general taxation. It won't stop the haters from hating but it will undermine a lot of the argument about people being forced to pay a specific fee for something they don't use. Lots of people pay for things they never use via general taxation. But it is the impression of being forced to pay a specific fee for something they either do not use or do not agree with that irks some people.
The subscription route is, I agree with you, not practical or warranted for a national broadcaster.
And yes Dorries should be dropped down a well. But that is not specifically because of the BBC. Just a general principle.
Of the alternatives only 'general taxation' works as you say.
The only other idea that might work is a basic service paid by tax (especially News) that is on free to air and needs no internet connection and all that, with a BBC+ subscription service for extras. The distribution of content between these two would have to be very well policed as we can't see Mrs Miggins who has no internet missing Songs of Praise or whatever.
The BBC is the most respected national broadcaster globally. When you think of the range of things it has to cover from radio to tv to regional programming it does a good job.
If the BBC becomes subscription that would spell the end . I fear that’s what Dorries will recommend if she’s still there but clearly no 10 is issuing the orders .
Just arrived back (well, about an hour ago) from Cornwall. As hoped, set off from Falmouth about 2.30, got back about 10 - this involved a detour via Wells to avoid an hour's delay on the M5, which I think gave us a net time saving of zero, but kept us moving and showed us some pretty countryside, as adding Wells and Bristol cathedrals to Truro on our count of cathedrals seen on the journey (incidentally, a couple of weeks back, on the thread which started all this off, there was some major dissing of Truro Cathedral - well, we didn't visit it, but we did see it and it looked magnificent - a Ruritainian splendour against a bright blue sky. Maybe dismissal of it is driven by it normally being visited on wet days as a wet weather activity...) But, you know, nowadays, with kids in the back with electronic entertainment, a seven hour drive isn't that bad - indeed, with the cricket on the radio, the mysteries of the Somerset countryside, and, later, a sunset which was magnificent from Bromsgrove all the way to the M60 - it was quite pleasant. But anyway, this isn't a travelogue: I have finished in my efforts to persuade Heathener and Gardenwalker and other sceptics of the merits of a Cornish family holiday - what I wanted to report was from my visit to the National Maritime Museum. The Museum as a whole is whelming at best: a magnificent structure, but for the most part the best things in it are outside it: there is a tower from which you can view the harbour both above and below the waterline, which includes the undersides of shellfish which have attached to the glass, which is pretty enthralling. You can marvel at the variety of boats in the harbour and also watch barnacles poo. One exhibit, though, was truly startling: the penis bones of a walrus. The concept of a penis bone itself is pretty startling (though apparently most mammals, and all primates expect humans have them) - but more startling still was that this was about two feet long; and more startling than that was that apparently in times gone by Inuit tribes used them as weapons. What an ignominous way to go that would be (both for the walrus and the unfortunate individual then clubbed to death by its penis). And more surprising yet: apparently a tiny percentage of human males do have a penis bone. Indeed, I was so startled I neglected to take a photo. But this article is instructive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baculum
The BBC will have spent god knows how many thousands of hours organizing the outside broadcasts for this weekend's events.
I know Nadine hates them, but does the average tory member really want the Beeb to be reduced to the point that they will not be able to do this kind of national event any more?
I don't think so. I suspect the Beeb is more popular amongst tory members than wider population.
Reshuffle her out.
The BBC has always been there for these national events and people don’t appreciate what they have until it’s gone. No 10 is actively trying to destroy it . I hope this becomes an election issue given those who love the beeb the most also tend to be strongly represented in the over 65s which just happen to be more likely to vote Tory .
Make no mistake if the BBC becomes a subscription service that will be the end of it . All those cheering on the demise of the BBC should see the state of national broadcasters in other countries.
The clueless fxcking clown Dorries is on a vendetta against any organization that doesn’t worship at the altar of The Dear Leader!
I think the answer is to get rid of the licence fee and pay for the BBC out of general taxation. It won't stop the haters from hating but it will undermine a lot of the argument about people being forced to pay a specific fee for something they don't use. Lots of people pay for things they never use via general taxation. But it is the impression of being forced to pay a specific fee for something they either do not use or do not agree with that irks some people.
The subscription route is, I agree with you, not practical or warranted for a national broadcaster.
And yes Dorries should be dropped down a well. But that is not specifically because of the BBC. Just a general principle.
Agreed on all points.
Nearly. I think the subscription model could work well outside these Isles, though there be some licensing issues.
Many people overseas would be happy to pay for the BBC. I don’t even mind if they have commercials to supplement the funding as long as it remains available to all in the UK.
The BBC will have spent god knows how many thousands of hours organizing the outside broadcasts for this weekend's events.
I know Nadine hates them, but does the average tory member really want the Beeb to be reduced to the point that they will not be able to do this kind of national event any more?
I don't think so. I suspect the Beeb is more popular amongst tory members than wider population.
Reshuffle her out.
The BBC has always been there for these national events and people don’t appreciate what they have until it’s gone. No 10 is actively trying to destroy it . I hope this becomes an election issue given those who love the beeb the most also tend to be strongly represented in the over 65s which just happen to be more likely to vote Tory .
Make no mistake if the BBC becomes a subscription service that will be the end of it . All those cheering on the demise of the BBC should see the state of national broadcasters in other countries.
The clueless fxcking clown Dorries is on a vendetta against any organization that doesn’t worship at the altar of The Dear Leader!
I think the answer is to get rid of the licence fee and pay for the BBC out of general taxation. It won't stop the haters from hating but it will undermine a lot of the argument about people being forced to pay a specific fee for something they don't use. Lots of people pay for things they never use via general taxation. But it is the impression of being forced to pay a specific fee for something they either do not use or do not agree with that irks some people.
The subscription route is, I agree with you, not practical or warranted for a national broadcaster.
And yes Dorries should be dropped down a well. But that is not specifically because of the BBC. Just a general principle.
Do we really need a "national" broadcaster? I mean, we have more than one. Why do we need one on the BBC model?
I have never been able to get my head around the fact that the BBC's funding model is essentially parasitic on other broadcast television. To watch ITV you have to pay the BBC. There's no world in which that makes sense to me. I understand the history of it and I can see why it probably was fine back in the day, but the landscape has moved and the old way of doing this no longer makes sense.
How (and whether) we fix it depends on the answer to the question of what the BBC is "for".
I think it is not likely sustainable in its current form, it aggrieves too many and is not supported enough for that. I do think if we just give up on the idea of a national broadcaster however we will come to regret it. I think general taxation and focused on news and national events would pass muster with most, I think the point about a specific fee for something many won't use is a good one.
1. I don't pay the licence fee because I never watch live BBC stuff, Netflix/Amazon etc. is where it's at, and 2. What did you think of the Plat Jub Concert tonight? Great, wasn't it?
The BBC is the most respected national broadcaster globally. When you think of the range of things it has to cover from radio to tv to regional programming it does a good job.
If the BBC becomes subscription that would spell the end . I fear that’s what Dorries will recommend if she’s still there but clearly no 10 is issuing the orders .
I've got a feeling it'll actually be the next Labour government (seeing the writing on the wall with the 18-40 age group) that will scrap the licence fee and put in place a funding model that keep *most* of the Corporation going...
The BBC is the most respected national broadcaster globally. When you think of the range of things it has to cover from radio to tv to regional programming it does a good job.
If the BBC becomes subscription that would spell the end . I fear that’s what Dorries will recommend if she’s still there but clearly no 10 is issuing the orders .
I don't really like the idea of merging the UK and world news channels together. Whether the BBC needs to do quite so much general entertainment, television news media is such an abused thing all over the world it would be an act of vandalism to clamp down on it.
Boris Johnson’s Conservative Party is heading for a thumping defeat in this month’s special election in Wakefield, according to a poll in the Sunday Times https://trib.al/wxIy079
The BBC will have spent god knows how many thousands of hours organizing the outside broadcasts for this weekend's events.
I know Nadine hates them, but does the average tory member really want the Beeb to be reduced to the point that they will not be able to do this kind of national event any more?
I don't think so. I suspect the Beeb is more popular amongst tory members than wider population.
Reshuffle her out.
The BBC has always been there for these national events and people don’t appreciate what they have until it’s gone. No 10 is actively trying to destroy it . I hope this becomes an election issue given those who love the beeb the most also tend to be strongly represented in the over 65s which just happen to be more likely to vote Tory .
Make no mistake if the BBC becomes a subscription service that will be the end of it . All those cheering on the demise of the BBC should see the state of national broadcasters in other countries.
The clueless fxcking clown Dorries is on a vendetta against any organization that doesn’t worship at the altar of The Dear Leader!
I think the answer is to get rid of the licence fee and pay for the BBC out of general taxation. It won't stop the haters from hating but it will undermine a lot of the argument about people being forced to pay a specific fee for something they don't use. Lots of people pay for things they never use via general taxation. But it is the impression of being forced to pay a specific fee for something they either do not use or do not agree with that irks some people.
The subscription route is, I agree with you, not practical or warranted for a national broadcaster.
And yes Dorries should be dropped down a well. But that is not specifically because of the BBC. Just a general principle.
Do we really need a "national" broadcaster? I mean, we have more than one. Why do we need one on the BBC model?
I have never been able to get my head around the fact that the BBC's funding model is essentially parasitic on other broadcast television. To watch ITV you have to pay the BBC. There's no world in which that makes sense to me. I understand the history of it and I can see why it probably was fine back in the day, but the landscape has moved and the old way of doing this no longer makes sense.
How (and whether) we fix it depends on the answer to the question of what the BBC is "for".
It’s like a comfort blanket . Britain would not be the same without the BBC. I tend to watch it mainly for the news , documentaries , politics shows and sporting events like Wimbledon . And its fantastic coverage of the Summer and Winter Olympics .
I’m happy to pay the license fee and think it’s very reasonable .
Boris Johnson’s Conservative Party is heading for a thumping defeat in this month’s special election in Wakefield, according to a poll in the Sunday Times https://trib.al/wxIy079
The BBC will have spent god knows how many thousands of hours organizing the outside broadcasts for this weekend's events.
I know Nadine hates them, but does the average tory member really want the Beeb to be reduced to the point that they will not be able to do this kind of national event any more?
I don't think so. I suspect the Beeb is more popular amongst tory members than wider population.
Reshuffle her out.
The BBC has always been there for these national events and people don’t appreciate what they have until it’s gone. No 10 is actively trying to destroy it . I hope this becomes an election issue given those who love the beeb the most also tend to be strongly represented in the over 65s which just happen to be more likely to vote Tory .
Make no mistake if the BBC becomes a subscription service that will be the end of it . All those cheering on the demise of the BBC should see the state of national broadcasters in other countries.
The clueless fxcking clown Dorries is on a vendetta against any organization that doesn’t worship at the altar of The Dear Leader!
I think the answer is to get rid of the licence fee and pay for the BBC out of general taxation. It won't stop the haters from hating but it will undermine a lot of the argument about people being forced to pay a specific fee for something they don't use. Lots of people pay for things they never use via general taxation. But it is the impression of being forced to pay a specific fee for something they either do not use or do not agree with that irks some people.
The subscription route is, I agree with you, not practical or warranted for a national broadcaster.
And yes Dorries should be dropped down a well. But that is not specifically because of the BBC. Just a general principle.
Do we really need a "national" broadcaster? I mean, we have more than one. Why do we need one on the BBC model?
I have never been able to get my head around the fact that the BBC's funding model is essentially parasitic on other broadcast television. To watch ITV you have to pay the BBC. There's no world in which that makes sense to me. I understand the history of it and I can see why it probably was fine back in the day, but the landscape has moved and the old way of doing this no longer makes sense.
How (and whether) we fix it depends on the answer to the question of what the BBC is "for".
I think it is not likely sustainable in its current form, it aggrieves too many and is not supported enough for that. I do think if we just give up on the idea of a national broadcaster however we will come to regret it. I think general taxation and focused on news and national events would pass muster with most, I think the point about a specific fee for something many won't use is a good one.
But can you even tell me what you mean by "national broadcaster". That seems to be a key component of this discussion, and I really don't get what it means.
The BBC is a public service broadcaster and there’s an entire literature on what that means.
In the same way it's always Con governments that have to reduce the military and police it'll be Lab governments that have to do proper "reform" of the BBC and probably, in the end, the NHS....
My dog has just eaten a bar of soap. He is not happy. Daft dog.
He's not happy? Just wait until he shits it out - and you won't exactly be ecstatic!
At the moment it sounds like it might come out of the other end, but hasn't yet. This is a first. He successfully eats wasps without any obvious side effects, but soap, I ask you.
The BBC will have spent god knows how many thousands of hours organizing the outside broadcasts for this weekend's events.
I know Nadine hates them, but does the average tory member really want the Beeb to be reduced to the point that they will not be able to do this kind of national event any more?
I don't think so. I suspect the Beeb is more popular amongst tory members than wider population.
Reshuffle her out.
The BBC has always been there for these national events and people don’t appreciate what they have until it’s gone. No 10 is actively trying to destroy it . I hope this becomes an election issue given those who love the beeb the most also tend to be strongly represented in the over 65s which just happen to be more likely to vote Tory .
Make no mistake if the BBC becomes a subscription service that will be the end of it . All those cheering on the demise of the BBC should see the state of national broadcasters in other countries.
The clueless fxcking clown Dorries is on a vendetta against any organization that doesn’t worship at the altar of The Dear Leader!
I think the answer is to get rid of the licence fee and pay for the BBC out of general taxation. It won't stop the haters from hating but it will undermine a lot of the argument about people being forced to pay a specific fee for something they don't use. Lots of people pay for things they never use via general taxation. But it is the impression of being forced to pay a specific fee for something they either do not use or do not agree with that irks some people.
The subscription route is, I agree with you, not practical or warranted for a national broadcaster.
And yes Dorries should be dropped down a well. But that is not specifically because of the BBC. Just a general principle.
Do we really need a "national" broadcaster? I mean, we have more than one. Why do we need one on the BBC model?
I have never been able to get my head around the fact that the BBC's funding model is essentially parasitic on other broadcast television. To watch ITV you have to pay the BBC. There's no world in which that makes sense to me. I understand the history of it and I can see why it probably was fine back in the day, but the landscape has moved and the old way of doing this no longer makes sense.
How (and whether) we fix it depends on the answer to the question of what the BBC is "for".
I think it is not likely sustainable in its current form, it aggrieves too many and is not supported enough for that. I do think if we just give up on the idea of a national broadcaster however we will come to regret it. I think general taxation and focused on news and national events would pass muster with most, I think the point about a specific fee for something many won't use is a good one.
But can you even tell me what you mean by "national broadcaster". That seems to be a key component of this discussion, and I really don't get what it means.
A predominant public broadcasting service. Wikipedia has a list.
You can play the 'what do you mean by X?' game with anything, a lack of 100% precise definition agreed by everyone doesn't prevent general principles being sufficient, in the 'know it when I see it' sense.
I don't really believe it is tricky to get a general understanding of what people mean by national/public service broadcaster. That's a tactic used for misdirection.
The BBC will have spent god knows how many thousands of hours organizing the outside broadcasts for this weekend's events.
I know Nadine hates them, but does the average tory member really want the Beeb to be reduced to the point that they will not be able to do this kind of national event any more?
I don't think so. I suspect the Beeb is more popular amongst tory members than wider population.
Reshuffle her out.
The BBC has always been there for these national events and people don’t appreciate what they have until it’s gone. No 10 is actively trying to destroy it . I hope this becomes an election issue given those who love the beeb the most also tend to be strongly represented in the over 65s which just happen to be more likely to vote Tory .
Make no mistake if the BBC becomes a subscription service that will be the end of it . All those cheering on the demise of the BBC should see the state of national broadcasters in other countries.
The clueless fxcking clown Dorries is on a vendetta against any organization that doesn’t worship at the altar of The Dear Leader!
Post of the day.
Many of us appreciate that the existence of the BBC (like the existence of the NHS) isn't a bad thing, but that they could be much better.
My dog has just eaten a bar of soap. He is not happy. Daft dog.
He's not happy? Just wait until he shits it out - and you won't exactly be ecstatic!
At the moment it sounds like it might come out of the other end, but hasn't yet. This is a first. He successfully eats wasps without any obvious side effects, but soap, I ask you.
The government pays well over £100m a year to various companies, most notably Capita, for licence fee collection. Surely this isn't defensible and funding the BBC out of general taxation would be better?
The BBC will have spent god knows how many thousands of hours organizing the outside broadcasts for this weekend's events.
I know Nadine hates them, but does the average tory member really want the Beeb to be reduced to the point that they will not be able to do this kind of national event any more?
I don't think so. I suspect the Beeb is more popular amongst tory members than wider population.
Reshuffle her out.
The BBC has always been there for these national events and people don’t appreciate what they have until it’s gone. No 10 is actively trying to destroy it . I hope this becomes an election issue given those who love the beeb the most also tend to be strongly represented in the over 65s which just happen to be more likely to vote Tory .
Make no mistake if the BBC becomes a subscription service that will be the end of it . All those cheering on the demise of the BBC should see the state of national broadcasters in other countries.
The clueless fxcking clown Dorries is on a vendetta against any organization that doesn’t worship at the altar of The Dear Leader!
I think the answer is to get rid of the licence fee and pay for the BBC out of general taxation. It won't stop the haters from hating but it will undermine a lot of the argument about people being forced to pay a specific fee for something they don't use. Lots of people pay for things they never use via general taxation. But it is the impression of being forced to pay a specific fee for something they either do not use or do not agree with that irks some people.
The subscription route is, I agree with you, not practical or warranted for a national broadcaster.
And yes Dorries should be dropped down a well. But that is not specifically because of the BBC. Just a general principle.
Do we really need a "national" broadcaster? I mean, we have more than one. Why do we need one on the BBC model?
I have never been able to get my head around the fact that the BBC's funding model is essentially parasitic on other broadcast television. To watch ITV you have to pay the BBC. There's no world in which that makes sense to me. I understand the history of it and I can see why it probably was fine back in the day, but the landscape has moved and the old way of doing this no longer makes sense.
How (and whether) we fix it depends on the answer to the question of what the BBC is "for".
I think it is not likely sustainable in its current form, it aggrieves too many and is not supported enough for that. I do think if we just give up on the idea of a national broadcaster however we will come to regret it. I think general taxation and focused on news and national events would pass muster with most, I think the point about a specific fee for something many won't use is a good one.
But can you even tell me what you mean by "national broadcaster". That seems to be a key component of this discussion, and I really don't get what it means.
The BBC is a public service broadcaster and there’s an entire literature on what that means.
But perhaps what i'm after is an understanding of what people who advocated for the BBC to be kept as is to tell me what they think will be lost by changing the model.
Well the license fee probably needs to go.
But if you’re questioning why we shouldn’t move to a sub-only model, then you’re talking about throwing away the public service model entirely.
The idea of public service broadcasting can be gleaned from two quotes:
“Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty.” (Thomas Jefferson)
And
“Inform, educate, entertain” (The BBC’s purpose per a Lord Reith).
You will note the cross-over, and the implication that PSB has a role in the functioning of democracy
Very impressive light show. In a country with this level of creativity who could have thought it a smart idea to make Nadine Dorries Minister of Culture?
Give it a rest
Why? She's a fucking minister, and she's thicker than the Jones section of Welsh phone book. We should be pointing this out every single hour she has any kind of power. There should be a siren going off in the centre of every city to remind us. Give it a rest? Yeah, when she's given a rest from being the first pantomime horse with two back ends to ever attend cabinet.
I don't think that MP's are thick. Some slip through the net, but they are generally labour MP's. Certainly not Dorries. She is engaged in a performance designed to make you mad, and you all fall for it. Being a conservative in charge of culture, most people you deal with will just hate you from the outset and make your job impossible. The political opportunity is to present yourself as being on the side of the masses against these elites. But it is on a subject that the masses aren't really interested in. So you have to keep engaging in more and more extreme acts of publicity to have any impact. That is what she is doing.
I know that Dorries is out to wind people up. I happen to think that such a goal is wholly inappropriate for a minister, and that's what winds me up.
I know all this. Just because someone wants me to react in a particular way, doesn't mean I have to do the opposite. I'm making a judgement that I think is completely sound: that the great ship of state is soiled by even having someone like her on board. Am I triggered? You bet you're arse I'm triggered. Triggered and proud. Because I want the people who govern me to have better standards than the wankers like you and me on message boards. If I were a minister I'd resign immediately because I'm basically a twat who shouldn't be given power. And I'm still a better person to be in charge of stuff than she is.
Oh, and take care on misreading me. All of the above, and my previous post, was about Dorries. Not "MPs" in general. I don't extrapolate from her to all the rest because she is almost uniquely and abrasively thick. There are one or two others I could name who are perhaps in the same ballpark but they are a minority. As a rule I have more faith in our MPs than most people do, and I think there are brilliant people in each party. Which makes the presence of Dorries all the more jarring. Like a dog turd on a croquet lawn.
Winding people up is part of democracy. Every government does it. This lot are just more entertaining than normal. Why should this stop? It is what makes politics entertaining. This is actually one of Starmer' s problems, he is just too boring and sensible.
The BBC will have spent god knows how many thousands of hours organizing the outside broadcasts for this weekend's events.
I know Nadine hates them, but does the average tory member really want the Beeb to be reduced to the point that they will not be able to do this kind of national event any more?
I don't think so. I suspect the Beeb is more popular amongst tory members than wider population.
Reshuffle her out.
The BBC has always been there for these national events and people don’t appreciate what they have until it’s gone. No 10 is actively trying to destroy it . I hope this becomes an election issue given those who love the beeb the most also tend to be strongly represented in the over 65s which just happen to be more likely to vote Tory .
Make no mistake if the BBC becomes a subscription service that will be the end of it . All those cheering on the demise of the BBC should see the state of national broadcasters in other countries.
The clueless fxcking clown Dorries is on a vendetta against any organization that doesn’t worship at the altar of The Dear Leader!
I think the answer is to get rid of the licence fee and pay for the BBC out of general taxation. It won't stop the haters from hating but it will undermine a lot of the argument about people being forced to pay a specific fee for something they don't use. Lots of people pay for things they never use via general taxation. But it is the impression of being forced to pay a specific fee for something they either do not use or do not agree with that irks some people.
The subscription route is, I agree with you, not practical or warranted for a national broadcaster.
And yes Dorries should be dropped down a well. But that is not specifically because of the BBC. Just a general principle.
Do we really need a "national" broadcaster? I mean, we have more than one. Why do we need one on the BBC model?
I have never been able to get my head around the fact that the BBC's funding model is essentially parasitic on other broadcast television. To watch ITV you have to pay the BBC. There's no world in which that makes sense to me. I understand the history of it and I can see why it probably was fine back in the day, but the landscape has moved and the old way of doing this no longer makes sense.
How (and whether) we fix it depends on the answer to the question of what the BBC is "for".
I think it is not likely sustainable in its current form, it aggrieves too many and is not supported enough for that. I do think if we just give up on the idea of a national broadcaster however we will come to regret it. I think general taxation and focused on news and national events would pass muster with most, I think the point about a specific fee for something many won't use is a good one.
But can you even tell me what you mean by "national broadcaster". That seems to be a key component of this discussion, and I really don't get what it means.
The BBC is a public service broadcaster and there’s an entire literature on what that means.
But perhaps what i'm after is an understanding of what people who advocated for the BBC to be kept as is to tell me what they think will be lost by changing the model.
I think the BBC is part of British life . The moments we all share as a nation are what the BBC does best . Perhaps I’m being overly sentimental.
Very impressive light show. In a country with this level of creativity who could have thought it a smart idea to make Nadine Dorries Minister of Culture?
Give it a rest
Why? She's a fucking minister, and she's thicker than the Jones section of Welsh phone book. We should be pointing this out every single hour she has any kind of power. There should be a siren going off in the centre of every city to remind us. Give it a rest? Yeah, when she's given a rest from being the first pantomime horse with two back ends to ever attend cabinet.
I don't think that MP's are thick. Some slip through the net, but they are generally labour MP's. Certainly not Dorries. She is engaged in a performance designed to make you mad, and you all fall for it. Being a conservative in charge of culture, most people you deal with will just hate you from the outset and make your job impossible. The political opportunity is to present yourself as being on the side of the masses against these elites. But it is on a subject that the masses aren't really interested in. So you have to keep engaging in more and more extreme acts of publicity to have any impact. That is what she is doing.
I know that Dorries is out to wind people up. I happen to think that such a goal is wholly inappropriate for a minister, and that's what winds me up.
I know all this. Just because someone wants me to react in a particular way, doesn't mean I have to do the opposite. I'm making a judgement that I think is completely sound: that the great ship of state is soiled by even having someone like her on board. Am I triggered? You bet you're arse I'm triggered. Triggered and proud. Because I want the people who govern me to have better standards than the wankers like you and me on message boards. If I were a minister I'd resign immediately because I'm basically a twat who shouldn't be given power. And I'm still a better person to be in charge of stuff than she is.
Oh, and take care on misreading me. All of the above, and my previous post, was about Dorries. Not "MPs" in general. I don't extrapolate from her to all the rest because she is almost uniquely and abrasively thick. There are one or two others I could name who are perhaps in the same ballpark but they are a minority. As a rule I have more faith in our MPs than most people do, and I think there are brilliant people in each party. Which makes the presence of Dorries all the more jarring. Like a dog turd on a croquet lawn.
Winding people up is part of democracy. Every government does it. This lot are just more entertaining than normal. Why should this stop? It is what makes politics entertaining. This is actually one of Starmer' s problems, he is just too boring and sensible.
I would actually like a government that gets on with running the country rather than winding the population up. Winding people up is not 'part of democracy'.
The BBC will have spent god knows how many thousands of hours organizing the outside broadcasts for this weekend's events.
I know Nadine hates them, but does the average tory member really want the Beeb to be reduced to the point that they will not be able to do this kind of national event any more?
I don't think so. I suspect the Beeb is more popular amongst tory members than wider population.
Reshuffle her out.
The BBC has always been there for these national events and people don’t appreciate what they have until it’s gone. No 10 is actively trying to destroy it . I hope this becomes an election issue given those who love the beeb the most also tend to be strongly represented in the over 65s which just happen to be more likely to vote Tory .
Make no mistake if the BBC becomes a subscription service that will be the end of it . All those cheering on the demise of the BBC should see the state of national broadcasters in other countries.
The clueless fxcking clown Dorries is on a vendetta against any organization that doesn’t worship at the altar of The Dear Leader!
I think the answer is to get rid of the licence fee and pay for the BBC out of general taxation. It won't stop the haters from hating but it will undermine a lot of the argument about people being forced to pay a specific fee for something they don't use. Lots of people pay for things they never use via general taxation. But it is the impression of being forced to pay a specific fee for something they either do not use or do not agree with that irks some people.
The subscription route is, I agree with you, not practical or warranted for a national broadcaster.
And yes Dorries should be dropped down a well. But that is not specifically because of the BBC. Just a general principle.
Do we really need a "national" broadcaster? I mean, we have more than one. Why do we need one on the BBC model?
I have never been able to get my head around the fact that the BBC's funding model is essentially parasitic on other broadcast television. To watch ITV you have to pay the BBC. There's no world in which that makes sense to me. I understand the history of it and I can see why it probably was fine back in the day, but the landscape has moved and the old way of doing this no longer makes sense.
How (and whether) we fix it depends on the answer to the question of what the BBC is "for".
Being forced to pay the BBC for owning a TV is as ridiculous as being forced to pay Persil for owning a washing machine.
One of my wife's more bizarre nights was going to a Diana Ross concert in LA. (Reluctantly - a friend took her.) She did a song - then her friend shouts out "the writer is here!" "Where? C'mon up girl!" says Diana.
Mortified, my wife had to clamber past being back slapped by Berry Gordy and god knows what Motown royalty. Helped up on stage, she got a great big hug from Diana, who then asked her about the inspiration for writing it...
Doesn't sound bizarre - Bizarre would be Diana Ross asking your wife to don a wig and ride around LA as a decoy Ross so that the real Diana could date Macauley Culkin in secret.
It actually sounds wonderful and surely must have been a very sweet and massively proud moment for your good lady.
When I have as many career achievements and starry stories to my name as you, you can bet your life I'll be name dropping all over PB, but falsely downplaying them makes them sound more awkward than they are. Charles was the worst; his name drops were excruciating sometimes.
Very impressive light show. In a country with this level of creativity who could have thought it a smart idea to make Nadine Dorries Minister of Culture?
Give it a rest
Why? She's a fucking minister, and she's thicker than the Jones section of Welsh phone book. We should be pointing this out every single hour she has any kind of power. There should be a siren going off in the centre of every city to remind us. Give it a rest? Yeah, when she's given a rest from being the first pantomime horse with two back ends to ever attend cabinet.
I don't think that MP's are thick. Some slip through the net, but they are generally labour MP's. Certainly not Dorries. She is engaged in a performance designed to make you mad, and you all fall for it. Being a conservative in charge of culture, most people you deal with will just hate you from the outset and make your job impossible. The political opportunity is to present yourself as being on the side of the masses against these elites. But it is on a subject that the masses aren't really interested in. So you have to keep engaging in more and more extreme acts of publicity to have any impact. That is what she is doing.
I know that Dorries is out to wind people up. I happen to think that such a goal is wholly inappropriate for a minister, and that's what winds me up.
I know all this. Just because someone wants me to react in a particular way, doesn't mean I have to do the opposite. I'm making a judgement that I think is completely sound: that the great ship of state is soiled by even having someone like her on board. Am I triggered? You bet you're arse I'm triggered. Triggered and proud. Because I want the people who govern me to have better standards than the wankers like you and me on message boards. If I were a minister I'd resign immediately because I'm basically a twat who shouldn't be given power. And I'm still a better person to be in charge of stuff than she is.
Oh, and take care on misreading me. All of the above, and my previous post, was about Dorries. Not "MPs" in general. I don't extrapolate from her to all the rest because she is almost uniquely and abrasively thick. There are one or two others I could name who are perhaps in the same ballpark but they are a minority. As a rule I have more faith in our MPs than most people do, and I think there are brilliant people in each party. Which makes the presence of Dorries all the more jarring. Like a dog turd on a croquet lawn.
Winding people up is part of democracy. Every government does it. This lot are just more entertaining than normal. Why should this stop? It is what makes politics entertaining. This is actually one of Starmer' s problems, he is just too boring and sensible.
I would actually like a government that gets on with running the country rather than winding the population up. Winding people up is not 'part of democracy'.
The BBC will have spent god knows how many thousands of hours organizing the outside broadcasts for this weekend's events.
I know Nadine hates them, but does the average tory member really want the Beeb to be reduced to the point that they will not be able to do this kind of national event any more?
I don't think so. I suspect the Beeb is more popular amongst tory members than wider population.
Reshuffle her out.
The BBC has always been there for these national events and people don’t appreciate what they have until it’s gone. No 10 is actively trying to destroy it . I hope this becomes an election issue given those who love the beeb the most also tend to be strongly represented in the over 65s which just happen to be more likely to vote Tory .
Make no mistake if the BBC becomes a subscription service that will be the end of it . All those cheering on the demise of the BBC should see the state of national broadcasters in other countries.
The clueless fxcking clown Dorries is on a vendetta against any organization that doesn’t worship at the altar of The Dear Leader!
I think the answer is to get rid of the licence fee and pay for the BBC out of general taxation. It won't stop the haters from hating but it will undermine a lot of the argument about people being forced to pay a specific fee for something they don't use. Lots of people pay for things they never use via general taxation. But it is the impression of being forced to pay a specific fee for something they either do not use or do not agree with that irks some people.
The subscription route is, I agree with you, not practical or warranted for a national broadcaster.
And yes Dorries should be dropped down a well. But that is not specifically because of the BBC. Just a general principle.
The problem with paying for the BBC out of general taxation is that £3.75bn is a lot of money, and the temptation will always be to squeeze it in favour of hospitals and giveaways. A hypothecated tax works, but the licence fee is very visible and aggravating, so I think there's a way to raise the money with hypothecated taxes in a less visible way.
For example, you could assign VAT revenue from broadband and subscription TV services to go to the BBC. One of the interesting consequences of this is that the BBC would have a financial interest in the future success of pay-TV services. Maybe you'd need to also give them the VAT revenue from advertising on commercial TV too, or from the sale of TVs, but I should think there would be a way to hypothecate roughly the same level of funding, and then abolish the licence fee.
Labour have found something, I am not quite sure we know what it is yet. But this is not the empty Labour of 2015 or the losing Labour of 2019. This is something else.
I maintain that Starmer has a much better chance of winning a majority than many think.
Comments
Politics will resume soon enough
Or maybe he hasn't been asked?
Mortified, my wife had to clamber past being back slapped by Berry Gordy and god knows what Motown royalty. Helped up on stage, she got a great big hug from Diana, who then asked her about the inspiration for writing it...
That equals a quality bloke in my book.
And the Bish constituency includes the trad Tory areas of Teesdale.
Who paid for it all, out of curiosity?
Indeed we probably have to wait for King William to get to our next Jubilee, much as Edward VIIth, Edward VIIIth and George VIth never got a Jubilee nor will Charles most likely
I once went on all day bender with Bez if I need to assert the bare minimum site rock n roll cred.
PBS for UK.
Who's Bez?
Someday (We'll be Together) ...
No, not me and you, H. Don't worry. I'm talking about the extended Soul Purrfection version - one of my favourite ways to spend 6 minutes.
Sir Keir will have to keep whinging, unpatriotic, far left Republicans like you firmly locked in the cupboard during the general election campaign
Who's Bez?
Wow.
He's a lovely, charismatic bloke. With a side to him.
Make no mistake if the BBC becomes a subscription service that will be the end of it . All those cheering on the demise of the BBC should see the state of national broadcasters in other countries.
The clueless fxcking clown Dorries is on a vendetta against any organization that doesn’t worship at the altar of The Dear Leader!
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1533204493231349760?s=20&t=RIw_MJkmakkiU9zhK_selg
The subscription route is, I agree with you, not practical or warranted for a national broadcaster.
And yes Dorries should be dropped down a well. But that is not specifically because of the BBC. Just a general principle.
https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/blogs/ec_bbcpoll_20220124.html
The Netflix, YouTube and Amazon Prime generation just aren't prepared to pay the licence fee when there's so many other alternatives.
The best thing the BBC and it's supporters can do right now is embrace a new funding model that keeps *most* of the corporation in tact before it becomes so irrelevant a future Con government just says to scrap everything...
*Two doors
**One of her homes, anyway
https://www.express.co.uk/travel/articles/1620510/british-tourists-EU-travellers-airport-queues-Spain
The only other idea that might work is a basic service paid by tax (especially News) that is on free to air and needs no internet connection and all that, with a BBC+ subscription service for extras. The distribution of content between these two would have to be very well policed as we can't see Mrs Miggins who has no internet missing Songs of Praise or whatever.
If the BBC becomes subscription that would spell the end . I fear that’s what Dorries will recommend if she’s still there but clearly no 10 is issuing the orders .
There used to be a poster - Charles, he called himself - whom I believe was a bridesmaid at Mollie Sugden’s wedding.
But he left this board in a flounce.
But anyway, this isn't a travelogue: I have finished in my efforts to persuade Heathener and Gardenwalker and other sceptics of the merits of a Cornish family holiday - what I wanted to report was from my visit to the National Maritime Museum. The Museum as a whole is whelming at best: a magnificent structure, but for the most part the best things in it are outside it: there is a tower from which you can view the harbour both above and below the waterline, which includes the undersides of shellfish which have attached to the glass, which is pretty enthralling. You can marvel at the variety of boats in the harbour and also watch barnacles poo.
One exhibit, though, was truly startling: the penis bones of a walrus. The concept of a penis bone itself is pretty startling (though apparently most mammals, and all primates expect humans have them) - but more startling still was that this was about two feet long; and more startling than that was that apparently in times gone by Inuit tribes used them as weapons. What an ignominous way to go that would be (both for the walrus and the unfortunate individual then clubbed to death by its penis). And more surprising yet: apparently a tiny percentage of human males do have a penis bone.
Indeed, I was so startled I neglected to take a photo. But this article is instructive:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baculum
We live in interesting.times. At my age I'd appreciate a rest.
1. I don't pay the licence fee because I never watch live BBC stuff, Netflix/Amazon etc. is where it's at, and
2. What did you think of the Plat Jub Concert tonight? Great, wasn't it?
documentaries , politics shows and sporting events like Wimbledon . And its fantastic coverage of the Summer and Winter Olympics .
I’m happy to pay the license fee and think it’s very reasonable .
You can play the 'what do you mean by X?' game with anything, a lack of 100% precise definition agreed by everyone doesn't prevent general principles being sufficient, in the 'know it when I see it' sense.
I don't really believe it is tricky to get a general understanding of what people mean by national/public service broadcaster. That's a tactic used for misdirection.
But if you’re questioning why we shouldn’t move to a sub-only model, then you’re talking about throwing away the public service model entirely.
The idea of public service broadcasting can be gleaned from two quotes:
“Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty.” (Thomas Jefferson)
And
“Inform, educate, entertain” (The BBC’s purpose per a Lord Reith).
You will note the cross-over, and the implication that PSB has a role in the functioning of democracy
It actually sounds wonderful and surely must have been a very sweet and massively proud moment for your good lady.
When I have as many career achievements and starry stories to my name as you, you can bet your life I'll be name dropping all over PB, but falsely downplaying them makes them sound more awkward than they are. Charles was the worst; his name drops were excruciating sometimes.
For example, you could assign VAT revenue from broadband and subscription TV services to go to the BBC. One of the interesting consequences of this is that the BBC would have a financial interest in the future success of pay-TV services. Maybe you'd need to also give them the VAT revenue from advertising on commercial TV too, or from the sale of TVs, but I should think there would be a way to hypothecate roughly the same level of funding, and then abolish the licence fee.
I maintain that Starmer has a much better chance of winning a majority than many think.