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Hunt makes a leadership move that he says is not a move – politicalbetting.com

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  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,080
    HYUFD said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    Just because there a re a lot of prominent vocal bad losers from the Remain side doesn't mean that some of them didn't accept that they lost.
    We are not all bad losers, there is a huge amount of amusement to be had from losing a referendum to a coalition of fruitcakes and xenophobes for someone with my ironic sense of humour. The reality is that many Leavers, such as yourself are really really bad winners, and that is hilarious. One has to assume that it is dawning on even you that it was pointless.
    The way the EU and its supporters have carried on for the last six years rather justifies the vote, as it happens.
    To you perhaps. You are now in a minority according to opinion polling. You keep trying to convince yourself though, it provides amusement for the rest of us.
    "Should the United Kingdom join the EU or stay out of the EU?"

    Join 49%
    Stay Out 51%

    Redfield & Wilton May 3

    85% of 2016 Leavers would still vote Leave, 15% Remain.
    76% of Remainers would still vote Remain, 24% Leave.
    64% of those who didn't vote would vote Remain
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1524128405087793152?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1521520052847185926?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    True for join/stay out, though other pollsters put join ahead on the same question;

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-join-the-european-union-or-stay-out-of-the-european-union/

    And "Brexit was a mistake" has a steady lead of about ten points;

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/

    I'm surprised that "stay out" isn't unambiguosly ahead, especially given that rejoin will be a faff and lock in worse (or less eurosceptic) terms than Dave's Mediocre Deal.

    But this is the recent poll that really ought to worry the government;

    As far as you are concerned, is Brexit ‘done’?

    All Britons
    It is - 28% / It isn't - 51%

    Remain
    It is - 20% / Isn't - 62%

    Leave
    It is - 40% / Isn't - 46%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/05/11/8055b/1?utm_source=twitter+&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1



    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1524427843886895105
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    IshmaelZ said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    Just because there a re a lot of prominent vocal bad losers from the Remain side doesn't mean that some of them didn't accept that they lost.
    We are not all bad losers, there is a huge amount of amusement to be had from losing a referendum to a coalition of fruitcakes and xenophobes for someone with my ironic sense of humour. The reality is that many Leavers, such as yourself are really really bad winners, and that is hilarious. One has to assume that it is dawning on even you that it was pointless.
    The way the EU and its supporters have carried on for the last six years rather justifies the vote, as it happens.
    To you perhaps. You are now in a minority according to opinion polling. You keep trying to convince yourself though, it provides amusement for the rest of us.
    If you aren't going to make the case for rejoining as a full member, including the euro and Schengen, then opinion polling is as irrelevant now as it was wrong then.
    I am not in favour of rejoining, though when, as seems likely, the young vote to do so, and assuming I am still alive I shall laugh and laugh at all you swivel-eyed nostalgia freaks who thought you could take England back to the 1950s.
    Lol. I voted Leave because the half-in/half-out status quo was unsustainable, and eventually we either had to be fully in, or out. And nobody on the Remain side was making the case for being fully in.
    This is perfectly sensible. A twin track / two speed Europe had been talked about for some time and has just been floated - again - by Macron. We were going to be on the outer ring as we're not in Schengen or the Euro so better to go under our own steam on our own terms than be flung out there by centrifugal forces.

    But - and its a very big but - what we have done since is fucking stupid.
    Oh, sure. But since far too many Remainers spent far too long refusing to accept defeat, we got stuck with what was acceptable to Leavers only because the most fucking stupid thing of all would have been for the public to have voted to Leave but the politicians to have overturned that vote.
    Theresa May shut down the option to have any functional trading ties in her Lancaster House speech of January 2017. What does that have to do with remainers?

    As for votes, we had a referendum. Then we had an election. That 2017 parliament was elected to do what it wished, you surely aren't stupid enough to insist that parliament wasn't sovereign and that its hands were tied by a previous parliament?
    If remainers hadn't already been fighting for months to overturn the result the Lancaster House speech wouldn't have been possible as a different consensus position would have already started to emerge. Not least because there shouldn't even have been a vacancy for May to fill.

    As for the 2017-19 parliament, I do not dispute that it had the right to do what it did. But having the right to do something and being right to do it are two different things - as was proven when all their anti-democratic manoeuverings proved counter-productive.
    You haven't answered my question - should the Labour Party in 2019 have just agreed to everything the Conservatives suggested because they lost the election and hence shouldn't have refused to accept defeat?
    Democratic politics, especially in a big-tent FPTP system, involves compromising with the electorate from time to time.

    There's a difference between opposing the government and saying that the people got it wrong.
    It is a distinction without a difference. If you oppose the government then by definition you think the people who put them there got it wrong.
    No, you think that the people who put you there got it right - and in any case, most of the time the government does get its way.

    But when there's a higher power of a referendum result in place, you need something extraordinary for ignoring it to be even close to democratic.
    Why is it a higher power? It is the same electorate that the following year was demonstrably split.

    This is what anti-second voters miss. It is the same people doing the voting. Hence perfectly democratically legitimate if hugely administratively difficult. The referendum was decided by the same people who vote in general elections.
    Because it's a direct instruction on a single issue, which is clearly a higher power on that single issue than electing a representative on a broad range of issues.
    Says you. It is the same electorate, making decisions.
    Well, you can deny the blindingly obvious if you want, but if you're going to do that I'll leave it there.
    You quite often say that when you lose an argument, but I think you should add "I'll stop feeding the troll."

    HTH
    Nah, Topping isn't a troll. He's just wrong on this, but that's fine.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,742
    edited May 2022
    TOPPING said:

    Presumably the Israelis being so angry at Palestinians for shooting the journalist is why they’re beating up Palestinian pall bearers and mourners.




    https://twitter.com/rushdibbc/status/1525114366403743744?s=21&t=vdMC84E1q6pvFvFc-FbZEQ

    Bringing the Israeli/Palestinian issue into a discussion about Brexit/2nd votes/democratic mandate of MPs/voting in @Richard_Tyndall as King for Life/cycling in London vs replacement bus services.

    What are you, running for leadership of the Labour Party?
    You’ll have to pm me the rules for suitable subjects of discussion.
    I do of course realise that highlighting anything that shows Israel in a bad light leads to snidey accusations of antisemitism from certain folk.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    Just because there a re a lot of prominent vocal bad losers from the Remain side doesn't mean that some of them didn't accept that they lost.
    We are not all bad losers, there is a huge amount of amusement to be had from losing a referendum to a coalition of fruitcakes and xenophobes for someone with my ironic sense of humour. The reality is that many Leavers, such as yourself are really really bad winners, and that is hilarious. One has to assume that it is dawning on even you that it was pointless.
    The way the EU and its supporters have carried on for the last six years rather justifies the vote, as it happens.
    To you perhaps. You are now in a minority according to opinion polling. You keep trying to convince yourself though, it provides amusement for the rest of us.
    If you aren't going to make the case for rejoining as a full member, including the euro and Schengen, then opinion polling is as irrelevant now as it was wrong then.
    I am not in favour of rejoining, though when, as seems likely, the young vote to do so, and assuming I am still alive I shall laugh and laugh at all you swivel-eyed nostalgia freaks who thought you could take England back to the 1950s.
    Lol. I voted Leave because the half-in/half-out status quo was unsustainable, and eventually we either had to be fully in, or out. And nobody on the Remain side was making the case for being fully in.
    This is perfectly sensible. A twin track / two speed Europe had been talked about for some time and has just been floated - again - by Macron. We were going to be on the outer ring as we're not in Schengen or the Euro so better to go under our own steam on our own terms than be flung out there by centrifugal forces.

    But - and its a very big but - what we have done since is fucking stupid.
    Oh, sure. But since far too many Remainers spent far too long refusing to accept defeat, we got stuck with what was acceptable to Leavers only because the most fucking stupid thing of all would have been for the public to have voted to Leave but the politicians to have overturned that vote.
    Ah, right...Brexit is a dog's breakfast because "Remainers spent far too long refusing to accept defeat".

    Any overturning of the vote would have been at the behest of the voters having changed their minds by the time of a second referendum. Democracy in action.

    Don't forget both Mrs May and Johnson decided after two years (of a mandatory 5) they wanted another opinion from the voters on the performance of their Conservative Governments, and on each occasion minds were changed. So because we got the right result on EU membership for Brexiteers in 2016 that should be that, and buyer's remorse was forever off the table. If that is true, are you implying the British electorate having elected Boris Johnson on the back of a landslide in 2019 should be lumbered with him for life, sod buyer's remorse, sod a change of mind?

    FWIW Brexit is done, and there is no going back. That isn't to say we couldn't have locked the stable door before the Brexit horse bolted when Article 50 remained incomplete.
    Oh, FFS. This dumb analogy for the eleventy billionth time.
    Which dumb analogy? I am a bottomless well of dumb analogies.
    The idea that electing MPs and by extension a government for a limited time, and changing the MPs and government at the next election is the same thing as overturning a referendum result without it ever being implemented.
    We overturn laws without them being implemented. No parliament is bound by its predecessor - a very simple definition of sovereignty.
    The people don't vote directly for laws...
    ...they vote for a manifesto which indicates what laws the candidate Parties plan to pass.
    Incorrect as a matter of law, I'm afraid, as determined in the 2008 Wheeler case.
    I thought Stuart Wheeler failed because he was unpersuasive that changes to the Treaty of Lisbon did not constitute a big enough change to the European Constitution to require a vote, as had been promised in the Labour Party Manifesto.
    Not quite. The judges in the case ruled that the Lisbon Treaty and the proposed European Constitution were different documents and so the pledge made over the European Constitution did not apply to the Lisbon Treaty.

    They did however also go on to rule on whether or not they would have accepted the challenge if they had decided the two documents were the same.

    In their ruling they cited a previous suit from 1999 involving a school girl called Heather Begbie. She had been on an assisted places scheme which had been scrapped by the Labour Government. The Government had promised that although they were ending the scheme, any children who were already on it would be able to continue until their planned end. They then reneged on this promise.

    The judges in that case made a distinction between a specific promise made to a specific individual - which could have been reasonably challenged if broken - and a general political promise made as part of a manifesto. They were explicit in ruling that judges should not and could not rule on such cases and that Ministers were not legally bound by either pre-election promises or political statements made when in power.

    This case was then cited in the Wheeler decision.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/1999/aug/21/johncarvel1
    Leading case is Bromley v GLC https://swarb.co.uk/bromley-london-borough-council-v-greater-london-council-hl-17-dec-1981/
    partly because its House of Lords and partly because the curiously highly rated Lord Denning gave judgment in the Court of Appeal (and the HL agreed with him)
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,838

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    Just because there a re a lot of prominent vocal bad losers from the Remain side doesn't mean that some of them didn't accept that they lost.
    We are not all bad losers, there is a huge amount of amusement to be had from losing a referendum to a coalition of fruitcakes and xenophobes for someone with my ironic sense of humour. The reality is that many Leavers, such as yourself are really really bad winners, and that is hilarious. One has to assume that it is dawning on even you that it was pointless.
    The way the EU and its supporters have carried on for the last six years rather justifies the vote, as it happens.
    To you perhaps. You are now in a minority according to opinion polling. You keep trying to convince yourself though, it provides amusement for the rest of us.
    If you aren't going to make the case for rejoining as a full member, including the euro and Schengen, then opinion polling is as irrelevant now as it was wrong then.
    I am not in favour of rejoining, though when, as seems likely, the young vote to do so, and assuming I am still alive I shall laugh and laugh at all you swivel-eyed nostalgia freaks who thought you could take England back to the 1950s.
    Lol. I voted Leave because the half-in/half-out status quo was unsustainable, and eventually we either had to be fully in, or out. And nobody on the Remain side was making the case for being fully in.
    This is perfectly sensible. A twin track / two speed Europe had been talked about for some time and has just been floated - again - by Macron. We were going to be on the outer ring as we're not in Schengen or the Euro so better to go under our own steam on our own terms than be flung out there by centrifugal forces.

    But - and its a very big but - what we have done since is fucking stupid.
    Oh, sure. But since far too many Remainers spent far too long refusing to accept defeat, we got stuck with what was acceptable to Leavers only because the most fucking stupid thing of all would have been for the public to have voted to Leave but the politicians to have overturned that vote.
    Theresa May shut down the option to have any functional trading ties in her Lancaster House speech of January 2017. What does that have to do with remainers?

    As for votes, we had a referendum. Then we had an election. That 2017 parliament was elected to do what it wished, you surely aren't stupid enough to insist that parliament wasn't sovereign and that its hands were tied by a previous parliament?
    If remainers hadn't already been fighting for months to overturn the result the Lancaster House speech wouldn't have been possible as a different consensus position would have already started to emerge. Not least because there shouldn't even have been a vacancy for May to fill.

    As for the 2017-19 parliament, I do not dispute that it had the right to do what it did. But having the right to do something and being right to do it are two different things - as was proven when all their anti-democratic manoeuverings proved counter-productive.
    You haven't answered my question - should the Labour Party in 2019 have just agreed to everything the Conservatives suggested because they lost the election and hence shouldn't have refused to accept defeat?
    Democratic politics, especially in a big-tent FPTP system, involves compromising with the electorate from time to time.

    There's a difference between opposing the government and saying that the people got it wrong.
    It is a distinction without a difference. If you oppose the government then by definition you think the people who put them there got it wrong.
    Yes, but you don't query the result of the election, and the right of the government to govern.
    If a referendum is not qualitatively different from an election, why have referendums?
    IMO a 2nd Ref (and its wording) required a GE mandate. We had the GE - the Brexit election - but did the opposite. "Get Brexit Done" won and we duly left the EU in accordance with the 2016 vote.

    A dreadful decision, fuelled by the chippy parochial side of our collective character, hijacked and amplified for pure self-interest by the ghastly Boris Johnson, but I think the 'democracy' angle worked out ok.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    edited May 2022
    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    Just because there a re a lot of prominent vocal bad losers from the Remain side doesn't mean that some of them didn't accept that they lost.
    We are not all bad losers, there is a huge amount of amusement to be had from losing a referendum to a coalition of fruitcakes and xenophobes for someone with my ironic sense of humour. The reality is that many Leavers, such as yourself are really really bad winners, and that is hilarious. One has to assume that it is dawning on even you that it was pointless.
    The way the EU and its supporters have carried on for the last six years rather justifies the vote, as it happens.
    To you perhaps. You are now in a minority according to opinion polling. You keep trying to convince yourself though, it provides amusement for the rest of us.
    "Should the United Kingdom join the EU or stay out of the EU?"

    Join 49%
    Stay Out 51%

    Redfield & Wilton May 3

    85% of 2016 Leavers would still vote Leave, 15% Remain.
    76% of Remainers would still vote Remain, 24% Leave.
    64% of those who didn't vote would vote Remain
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1524128405087793152?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1521520052847185926?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    I’m surprised join is that high given many Remainers who I talk to don’t think this is the right time to contemplate joining again. I was an ardent Remainer and wouldn’t vote to rejoin unless there was a strong majority in polling for that . The better question for now is the in hindsight one.

    I think it’s for future generations to decide on this matter and the EU wouldn’t want the UK back unless it was clear that there wouldn’t be more drama down the line . In which case it would need a very clear majority wanting that .
    The hindsight question isn't really relevant, because it's happened.

    When you look at the numbers, it's 45/47 with 8% DK. And we know what tends to happen to DKs in referendums.

    And I strongly suspect that respondents assumed that rejoin meant on previous terms. Asking the question with what it would actually mean spelled out would be instructive.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,708
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    MrEd said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    Just because there a re a lot of prominent vocal bad losers from the Remain side doesn't mean that some of them didn't accept that they lost.
    We are not all bad losers, there is a huge amount of amusement to be had from losing a referendum to a coalition of fruitcakes and xenophobes for someone with my ironic sense of humour. The reality is that many Leavers, such as yourself are really really bad winners, and that is hilarious. One has to assume that it is dawning on even you that it was pointless.
    The way the EU and its supporters have carried on for the last six years rather justifies the vote, as it happens.
    To you perhaps. You are now in a minority according to opinion polling. You keep trying to convince yourself though, it provides amusement for the rest of us.
    If you aren't going to make the case for rejoining as a full member, including the euro and Schengen, then opinion polling is as irrelevant now as it was wrong then.
    I am not in favour of rejoining, though when, as seems likely, the young vote to do so, and assuming I am still alive I shall laugh and laugh at all you swivel-eyed nostalgia freaks who thought you could take England back to the 1950s.
    Lol. I voted Leave because the half-in/half-out status quo was unsustainable, and eventually we either had to be fully in, or out. And nobody on the Remain side was making the case for being fully in.
    This is perfectly sensible. A twin track / two speed Europe had been talked about for some time and has just been floated - again - by Macron. We were going to be on the outer ring as we're not in Schengen or the Euro so better to go under our own steam on our own terms than be flung out there by centrifugal forces.

    But - and its a very big but - what we have done since is fucking stupid.
    Oh, sure. But since far too many Remainers spent far too long refusing to accept defeat, we got stuck with what was acceptable to Leavers only because the most fucking stupid thing of all would have been for the public to have voted to Leave but the politicians to have overturned that vote.
    Ah, right...Brexit is a dog's breakfast because "Remainers spent far too long refusing to accept defeat".

    Any overturning of the vote would have been at the behest of the voters having changed their minds by the time of a second referendum. Democracy in action.

    Don't forget both Mrs May and Johnson decided after two years (of a mandatory 5) they wanted another opinion from the voters on the performance of their Conservative Governments, and on each occasion minds were changed. So because we got the right result on EU membership for Brexiteers in 2016 that should be that, and buyer's remorse was forever off the table. If that is true, are you implying the British electorate having elected Boris Johnson on the back of a landslide in 2019 should be lumbered with him for life, sod buyer's remorse, sod a change of mind?

    FWIW Brexit is done, and there is no going back. That isn't to say we couldn't have locked the stable door before the Brexit horse bolted when Article 50 remained incomplete.
    Oh, FFS. This dumb analogy for the eleventy billionth time.
    Which dumb analogy? I am a bottomless well of dumb analogies.
    The idea that electing MPs and by extension a government for a limited time, and changing the MPs and government at the next election is the same thing as overturning a referendum result without it ever being implemented.
    We overturn laws without them being implemented. No parliament is bound by its predecessor - a very simple definition of sovereignty.
    Indeed and had those wanting to reverse the referendum won the 2017 or 2019 elections then that would be one thing, but they didn't.

    Instead in a bait-and-switch bit of dishonesty people went into 2017 claiming they'd respect the referendum result, then moved heaven and earth to reverse it.

    Unsurprisingly, people don't like dishonesty. You can see that with Boris, but you have a blind spot for Keir, Grieve etc did.

    I actually respect the Lib Dems who had reversing the referendum as their pre-election pledge, unlike Keir, Grieve etc
    Quick question - and it’s a genuine one - if we accept the rule that no Parliament may bind its future Parliament, how does that explain how we view the actions of the 1707 Scottish Parliament, which voted in the Act of Union? Or is it assumed that since it was merged / abolished, the principle no longer applies (or, alternatively, it’s Scotland so the same principle doesn’t apply?)
    The 1707 parliament has been reconvened as the Holyrood Parliament in 1997, as was explicitly and formally noted at the opening of the latter. (BTW, that was in a heavily Unionist dominated house, so it's not just a SNP thing.)

    Also, exactly the same could be said of the Irish Parliament's own Act of Union in 1799/1800/1801 (I forget the precise date). Yet Westminster was happy to accept that as moot in the 1920s.
    In reality it isn't. Holyrood is just a domestic subsidiary parliament Westminster could scrap tomorrow if it wished, even if politically it is unlikely to do so just continue to refuse an indyref2.

    The supreme power in Scotland as well as England remains Westminster and Westminster remains the real heir of the Scottish Parliament of 1707 that dissolved itself into Westminster
    That is the strict letter of the law from your mentality - but in terms of democratic legitimacy I am quite right. Above all, perceived legitimacy. This was a cross-party consensus (remarkably enough).

    Remember that this was a period when any hint at all of perceived pandering to the SNP, often fictitious as it was, was rigorously stamped out. This was a very large factor in the decision to reject the use of the former Royal High School high up on the Mound and go for a modernist building which was not seen to dominate anything at all: yes, it's bizarre, but that was what was happening. There's at least one other story of that thinking which I am not at liberty to relate but might tell one day ...

    'Democratic legitimacy' ha, mere Blairite window dressing the supreme legislative and political power in Scotland remains Westminster.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,341

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    Just because there a re a lot of prominent vocal bad losers from the Remain side doesn't mean that some of them didn't accept that they lost.
    We are not all bad losers, there is a huge amount of amusement to be had from losing a referendum to a coalition of fruitcakes and xenophobes for someone with my ironic sense of humour. The reality is that many Leavers, such as yourself are really really bad winners, and that is hilarious. One has to assume that it is dawning on even you that it was pointless.
    The way the EU and its supporters have carried on for the last six years rather justifies the vote, as it happens.
    To you perhaps. You are now in a minority according to opinion polling. You keep trying to convince yourself though, it provides amusement for the rest of us.
    If you aren't going to make the case for rejoining as a full member, including the euro and Schengen, then opinion polling is as irrelevant now as it was wrong then.
    I am not in favour of rejoining, though when, as seems likely, the young vote to do so, and assuming I am still alive I shall laugh and laugh at all you swivel-eyed nostalgia freaks who thought you could take England back to the 1950s.
    Lol. I voted Leave because the half-in/half-out status quo was unsustainable, and eventually we either had to be fully in, or out. And nobody on the Remain side was making the case for being fully in.
    This is perfectly sensible. A twin track / two speed Europe had been talked about for some time and has just been floated - again - by Macron. We were going to be on the outer ring as we're not in Schengen or the Euro so better to go under our own steam on our own terms than be flung out there by centrifugal forces.

    But - and its a very big but - what we have done since is fucking stupid.
    Oh, sure. But since far too many Remainers spent far too long refusing to accept defeat, we got stuck with what was acceptable to Leavers only because the most fucking stupid thing of all would have been for the public to have voted to Leave but the politicians to have overturned that vote.
    Ah, right...Brexit is a dog's breakfast because "Remainers spent far too long refusing to accept defeat".

    Any overturning of the vote would have been at the behest of the voters having changed their minds by the time of a second referendum. Democracy in action.

    Don't forget both Mrs May and Johnson decided after two years (of a mandatory 5) they wanted another opinion from the voters on the performance of their Conservative Governments, and on each occasion minds were changed. So because we got the right result on EU membership for Brexiteers in 2016 that should be that, and buyer's remorse was forever off the table. If that is true, are you implying the British electorate having elected Boris Johnson on the back of a landslide in 2019 should be lumbered with him for life, sod buyer's remorse, sod a change of mind?

    FWIW Brexit is done, and there is no going back. That isn't to say we couldn't have locked the stable door before the Brexit horse bolted when Article 50 remained incomplete.
    Oh, FFS. This dumb analogy for the eleventy billionth time.
    Which dumb analogy? I am a bottomless well of dumb analogies.
    The idea that electing MPs and by extension a government for a limited time, and changing the MPs and government at the next election is the same thing as overturning a referendum result without it ever being implemented.
    Why not?

    Surely democracy is the will of the people, therefore if more people indicated they wanted a second referendum than didn't, there was nothing undemocratic about calling one, particularly if the majority then voted to change their minds having been furnished with more details about what the ramifications of Brexit would look like.

    You can call the demand for a second referendum all sorts of things, but undemocratic it was not.
    Of course. Democracy is a foundational concept not a policy. You can call for the massacre of the first born or the legalisation of torturing small children as long as you do so peacefully and through the democratic process. The other polarity of a democratic system is either a constitution which sets 'difficult to change' limits to how silly the demos can be (we don't have that) or a judicial system which by merely existing and having the power to tell government where to get off, achieves the same end (thats's the one we have).

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,708

    HYUFD said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    Just because there a re a lot of prominent vocal bad losers from the Remain side doesn't mean that some of them didn't accept that they lost.
    We are not all bad losers, there is a huge amount of amusement to be had from losing a referendum to a coalition of fruitcakes and xenophobes for someone with my ironic sense of humour. The reality is that many Leavers, such as yourself are really really bad winners, and that is hilarious. One has to assume that it is dawning on even you that it was pointless.
    The way the EU and its supporters have carried on for the last six years rather justifies the vote, as it happens.
    To you perhaps. You are now in a minority according to opinion polling. You keep trying to convince yourself though, it provides amusement for the rest of us.
    "Should the United Kingdom join the EU or stay out of the EU?"

    Join 49%
    Stay Out 51%

    Redfield & Wilton May 3

    85% of 2016 Leavers would still vote Leave, 15% Remain.
    76% of Remainers would still vote Remain, 24% Leave.
    64% of those who didn't vote would vote Remain
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1524128405087793152?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1521520052847185926?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    True for join/stay out, though other pollsters put join ahead on the same question;

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-join-the-european-union-or-stay-out-of-the-european-union/

    And "Brexit was a mistake" has a steady lead of about ten points;

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/

    I'm surprised that "stay out" isn't unambiguosly ahead, especially given that rejoin will be a faff and lock in worse (or less eurosceptic) terms than Dave's Mediocre Deal.

    But this is the recent poll that really ought to worry the government;

    As far as you are concerned, is Brexit ‘done’?

    All Britons
    It is - 28% / It isn't - 51%

    Remain
    It is - 20% / Isn't - 62%

    Leave
    It is - 40% / Isn't - 46%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/05/11/8055b/1?utm_source=twitter+&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1



    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1524427843886895105
    The precise form of Brexit may not be done, if Starmer got in for example he would align again closer to EU regulations but we will never rejoin the full EU again now, with the Euro and Schengen and all that entails.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,227
    While PBers are making much of assorted petty irritations & grievances (war, woke, Boris, pineapple on pizza) here is some REAL trouble . . .

    Seattle Times ($) - In cool spring, bees struggle to pollinate Northwest cherry crop

    HOOD RIVER, Oregon — Grower Brad Fowler walked into the cherry orchard on yet another May day when the temperatures struggled to climb above 50 degrees and a chill wind swept through the long rows of trees at the tail end of their annual bloom.

    Fowler searched for signs of honeybees doing the vital work of pollination that sets fruit as they move from blossom to blossom. On a warm day, he might find 20 bees in each tree, their flights creating a steady hum. On this morning, there was an unsettling quietness. He could only find a few bees spread about the trees he examined.

    “I am surprised they are out at all, as cold as it is,” Fowler said.

    Here in the Hood River valley in northern Oregon, and all throughout the prime Pacific Northwest cherry-growing regions, the cool spring weather has often kept the bees — billions of which are brought into the region’s fruit orchards each year — inside, or close by, the hives of their wooden box colonies.

    The low temperatures have resulted in slower and later flowering of the cherry trees. In some orchards, when temperatures prime for bee flight finally arrived, the window for blossom pollination had already closed.

    B. J. Thurlby, president of Northwest Cherry Growers, says the challenges in pollinating this crop, along with damage from the cold, are expected to reduce this year’s cherry crop by 35% compared with the average volume of the past five years.

    “There’s bud kill from the cold, and then there’s lack of pollination, and I’d say that’s probably split 50-50,” said Thurlby, who forecasts a late start to the harvest season, probably June 5 or 6.

    Most of the Northwest’s cherries are grown in Washington, where in 2021 they ranked as the fifth most valuable crop. In Yakima, hub of one of the state’s cherry-growing areas, the average high for April was 11 degrees below the mean, according to the National Weather Service.

    This also has been a wet spring, with snowpacks in many areas of the Cascades at least 130% of average, and in the Oregon basin above the Hood River Valley, more than double the average as of May 12, according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service. This is in stark contrast to some other areas of the West, including California, which is in the grip of extreme drought. Water restrictions are in place in the Los Angeles area and farmers can’t use as much water for irrigation, forcing some to let land go unused. . . .

    SSI - Here in Seattle yesterday we set a record for coldest temperature on the date or something like that, was certainly brisk when I ventured out early this morning - to coffee shop NOT cherry orchards.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,592

    Andy_JS said:

    This is why Zoom meetings aren't a good thing IMO. Someone allegedly gets sacked for rolling their eyes during one. A person wouldn't get fired for doing something like this during a face-to-face meeting.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10813021/Sacked-TAC-worker-claims-unfairly-dismissed.html

    I do that in actual in person meetings.

    I’m the king of rolling my eyes, on most occasions I see my own optical nerve.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LFHZDXhUI8

    For some reason....
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 4,530
    Applicant said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    Just because there a re a lot of prominent vocal bad losers from the Remain side doesn't mean that some of them didn't accept that they lost.
    We are not all bad losers, there is a huge amount of amusement to be had from losing a referendum to a coalition of fruitcakes and xenophobes for someone with my ironic sense of humour. The reality is that many Leavers, such as yourself are really really bad winners, and that is hilarious. One has to assume that it is dawning on even you that it was pointless.
    The way the EU and its supporters have carried on for the last six years rather justifies the vote, as it happens.
    To you perhaps. You are now in a minority according to opinion polling. You keep trying to convince yourself though, it provides amusement for the rest of us.
    "Should the United Kingdom join the EU or stay out of the EU?"

    Join 49%
    Stay Out 51%

    Redfield & Wilton May 3

    85% of 2016 Leavers would still vote Leave, 15% Remain.
    76% of Remainers would still vote Remain, 24% Leave.
    64% of those who didn't vote would vote Remain
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1524128405087793152?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1521520052847185926?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    I’m surprised join is that high given many Remainers who I talk to don’t think this is the right time to contemplate joining again. I was an ardent Remainer and wouldn’t vote to rejoin unless there was a strong majority in polling for that . The better question for now is the in hindsight one.

    I think it’s for future generations to decide on this matter and the EU wouldn’t want the UK back unless it was clear that there wouldn’t be more drama down the line . In which case it would need a very clear majority wanting that .
    The hindsight question isn't really relevant, because it's happened.

    When you look at the numbers, it's 45/47 with 8% DK. And we know what tends to happen to DKs in referendums.

    And I strongly suspect that respondents assumed that rejoin meant on previous terms. Asking the question with what it would actually mean spelled out would be instructive.
    I think it is . It gives you a base line of voters that would likely vote to join again . In terms of what the terms might be we really don’t know what that would be at this point .
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited May 2022
    Andy_JS said:

    This is why Zoom meetings aren't a good thing IMO. Someone allegedly gets sacked for rolling their eyes during one. A person wouldn't get fired for doing something like this during a face-to-face meeting.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10813021/Sacked-TAC-worker-claims-unfairly-dismissed.html

    I'm not sure that proves what you think it does. Are you claiming people have never been unfairly sacked for allegedly doing something face to face?

    The specifics in this case may be due to a Zoom meeting, but the problem was not the meeting being virtual, but someone acting like an idiot, and idiocy will bleed through in interactions virtual or face to face.

    I have, though, been told off for yawning during a meeting. They insisted I was not being told off for yawning, but clearly I was, and they seemed unable to answer what I was expected to take away from the comment, given it is an involuntary reaction. Apparently I should be aware of how others might perceive things, so whatever you do also do not cough or sneeze.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,080
    nico679 said:

    Applicant said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    Just because there a re a lot of prominent vocal bad losers from the Remain side doesn't mean that some of them didn't accept that they lost.
    We are not all bad losers, there is a huge amount of amusement to be had from losing a referendum to a coalition of fruitcakes and xenophobes for someone with my ironic sense of humour. The reality is that many Leavers, such as yourself are really really bad winners, and that is hilarious. One has to assume that it is dawning on even you that it was pointless.
    The way the EU and its supporters have carried on for the last six years rather justifies the vote, as it happens.
    To you perhaps. You are now in a minority according to opinion polling. You keep trying to convince yourself though, it provides amusement for the rest of us.
    "Should the United Kingdom join the EU or stay out of the EU?"

    Join 49%
    Stay Out 51%

    Redfield & Wilton May 3

    85% of 2016 Leavers would still vote Leave, 15% Remain.
    76% of Remainers would still vote Remain, 24% Leave.
    64% of those who didn't vote would vote Remain
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1524128405087793152?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1521520052847185926?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    I’m surprised join is that high given many Remainers who I talk to don’t think this is the right time to contemplate joining again. I was an ardent Remainer and wouldn’t vote to rejoin unless there was a strong majority in polling for that . The better question for now is the in hindsight one.

    I think it’s for future generations to decide on this matter and the EU wouldn’t want the UK back unless it was clear that there wouldn’t be more drama down the line . In which case it would need a very clear majority wanting that .
    The hindsight question isn't really relevant, because it's happened.

    When you look at the numbers, it's 45/47 with 8% DK. And we know what tends to happen to DKs in referendums.

    And I strongly suspect that respondents assumed that rejoin meant on previous terms. Asking the question with what it would actually mean spelled out would be instructive.
    I think it is . It gives you a base line of voters that would likely vote to join again . In terms of what the terms might be we really don’t know what that would be at this point .
    Only a fool would be pushing for a rejoin referendum at this stage. However,

    1 Being associated with Brexit isn't an unambiguous winner.
    2 It's not exactly the settled will of the people, is it?
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    nico679 said:

    Applicant said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    Just because there a re a lot of prominent vocal bad losers from the Remain side doesn't mean that some of them didn't accept that they lost.
    We are not all bad losers, there is a huge amount of amusement to be had from losing a referendum to a coalition of fruitcakes and xenophobes for someone with my ironic sense of humour. The reality is that many Leavers, such as yourself are really really bad winners, and that is hilarious. One has to assume that it is dawning on even you that it was pointless.
    The way the EU and its supporters have carried on for the last six years rather justifies the vote, as it happens.
    To you perhaps. You are now in a minority according to opinion polling. You keep trying to convince yourself though, it provides amusement for the rest of us.
    "Should the United Kingdom join the EU or stay out of the EU?"

    Join 49%
    Stay Out 51%

    Redfield & Wilton May 3

    85% of 2016 Leavers would still vote Leave, 15% Remain.
    76% of Remainers would still vote Remain, 24% Leave.
    64% of those who didn't vote would vote Remain
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1524128405087793152?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1521520052847185926?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    I’m surprised join is that high given many Remainers who I talk to don’t think this is the right time to contemplate joining again. I was an ardent Remainer and wouldn’t vote to rejoin unless there was a strong majority in polling for that . The better question for now is the in hindsight one.

    I think it’s for future generations to decide on this matter and the EU wouldn’t want the UK back unless it was clear that there wouldn’t be more drama down the line . In which case it would need a very clear majority wanting that .
    The hindsight question isn't really relevant, because it's happened.

    When you look at the numbers, it's 45/47 with 8% DK. And we know what tends to happen to DKs in referendums.

    And I strongly suspect that respondents assumed that rejoin meant on previous terms. Asking the question with what it would actually mean spelled out would be instructive.
    I think it is . It gives you a base line of voters that would likely vote to join again . In terms of what the terms might be we really don’t know what that would be at this point .
    I think it gives a ceiling rather than a base. And we do know what the terms would be - full membership including the euro and Schengen. Without that the EU would be insane to let us back.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    Visegrad 24 reporting that at least 73 RU vehicles destroyed at that river crossing.


  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is why Zoom meetings aren't a good thing IMO. Someone allegedly gets sacked for rolling their eyes during one. A person wouldn't get fired for doing something like this during a face-to-face meeting.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10813021/Sacked-TAC-worker-claims-unfairly-dismissed.html

    I'm not sure that proves what you think it does. Are you claiming people have never been unfairly sacked for allegedly doing something face to face?

    The specifics in this case may be due to a Zoom meeting, but the problem was not the meeting being virtual, but someone acting like an idiot, and idiocy will bleed through in interactions virtual or face to face.

    I have, though, been told off for yawning during a meeting. They insisted I was not being told off for yawning, but clearly I was, and they seemed unable to answer what I was expected to take away from the comment, given it is an involuntary reaction. Apparently I should be aware of how others might perceive things, so whatever you do also do not cough or sneeze.
    Yeah, you have to be careful, as Jim Hacker found out.


  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    Just because there a re a lot of prominent vocal bad losers from the Remain side doesn't mean that some of them didn't accept that they lost.
    We are not all bad losers, there is a huge amount of amusement to be had from losing a referendum to a coalition of fruitcakes and xenophobes for someone with my ironic sense of humour. The reality is that many Leavers, such as yourself are really really bad winners, and that is hilarious. One has to assume that it is dawning on even you that it was pointless.
    The way the EU and its supporters have carried on for the last six years rather justifies the vote, as it happens.
    To you perhaps. You are now in a minority according to opinion polling. You keep trying to convince yourself though, it provides amusement for the rest of us.
    "Should the United Kingdom join the EU or stay out of the EU?"

    Join 49%
    Stay Out 51%

    Redfield & Wilton May 3

    85% of 2016 Leavers would still vote Leave, 15% Remain.
    76% of Remainers would still vote Remain, 24% Leave.
    64% of those who didn't vote would vote Remain
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1524128405087793152?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1521520052847185926?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    True for join/stay out, though other pollsters put join ahead on the same question;

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-join-the-european-union-or-stay-out-of-the-european-union/

    And "Brexit was a mistake" has a steady lead of about ten points;

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/

    I'm surprised that "stay out" isn't unambiguosly ahead, especially given that rejoin will be a faff and lock in worse (or less eurosceptic) terms than Dave's Mediocre Deal.

    But this is the recent poll that really ought to worry the government;

    As far as you are concerned, is Brexit ‘done’?

    All Britons
    It is - 28% / It isn't - 51%

    Remain
    It is - 20% / Isn't - 62%

    Leave
    It is - 40% / Isn't - 46%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/05/11/8055b/1?utm_source=twitter+&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1



    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1524427843886895105
    The precise form of Brexit may not be done, if Starmer got in for example he would align again closer to EU regulations but we will never rejoin the full EU again now, with the Euro and Schengen and all that entails.
    "never" is a bit silly and absolutist. I would think that by the time the current younger generation is middle aged and the current middle aged are largely dead (myself included) there could be a completely different view. Hopefully if I am still alive and PB is still a thing I can record some dribbly hysterical laughter to play on here to all the swivelly eyed war comic readers.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    Just because there a re a lot of prominent vocal bad losers from the Remain side doesn't mean that some of them didn't accept that they lost.
    We are not all bad losers, there is a huge amount of amusement to be had from losing a referendum to a coalition of fruitcakes and xenophobes for someone with my ironic sense of humour. The reality is that many Leavers, such as yourself are really really bad winners, and that is hilarious. One has to assume that it is dawning on even you that it was pointless.
    The way the EU and its supporters have carried on for the last six years rather justifies the vote, as it happens.
    To you perhaps. You are now in a minority according to opinion polling. You keep trying to convince yourself though, it provides amusement for the rest of us.
    "Should the United Kingdom join the EU or stay out of the EU?"

    Join 49%
    Stay Out 51%

    Redfield & Wilton May 3

    85% of 2016 Leavers would still vote Leave, 15% Remain.
    76% of Remainers would still vote Remain, 24% Leave.
    64% of those who didn't vote would vote Remain
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1524128405087793152?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1521520052847185926?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    True for join/stay out, though other pollsters put join ahead on the same question;

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-join-the-european-union-or-stay-out-of-the-european-union/

    And "Brexit was a mistake" has a steady lead of about ten points;

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/

    I'm surprised that "stay out" isn't unambiguosly ahead, especially given that rejoin will be a faff and lock in worse (or less eurosceptic) terms than Dave's Mediocre Deal.

    But this is the recent poll that really ought to worry the government;

    As far as you are concerned, is Brexit ‘done’?

    All Britons
    It is - 28% / It isn't - 51%

    Remain
    It is - 20% / Isn't - 62%

    Leave
    It is - 40% / Isn't - 46%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/05/11/8055b/1?utm_source=twitter+&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1



    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1524427843886895105
    The precise form of Brexit may not be done, if Starmer got in for example he would align again closer to EU regulations but we will never rejoin the full EU again now, with the Euro and Schengen and all that entails.
    "never" is a bit silly and absolutist. I would think that by the time the current younger generation is middle aged and the current middle aged are largely dead (myself included) there could be a completely different view. Hopefully if I am still alive and PB is still a thing I can record some dribbly hysterical laughter to play on here to all the swivelly eyed war comic readers.
    Record it now and leave instructions in your will?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,708

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    Just because there a re a lot of prominent vocal bad losers from the Remain side doesn't mean that some of them didn't accept that they lost.
    We are not all bad losers, there is a huge amount of amusement to be had from losing a referendum to a coalition of fruitcakes and xenophobes for someone with my ironic sense of humour. The reality is that many Leavers, such as yourself are really really bad winners, and that is hilarious. One has to assume that it is dawning on even you that it was pointless.
    The way the EU and its supporters have carried on for the last six years rather justifies the vote, as it happens.
    To you perhaps. You are now in a minority according to opinion polling. You keep trying to convince yourself though, it provides amusement for the rest of us.
    "Should the United Kingdom join the EU or stay out of the EU?"

    Join 49%
    Stay Out 51%

    Redfield & Wilton May 3

    85% of 2016 Leavers would still vote Leave, 15% Remain.
    76% of Remainers would still vote Remain, 24% Leave.
    64% of those who didn't vote would vote Remain
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1524128405087793152?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1521520052847185926?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    True for join/stay out, though other pollsters put join ahead on the same question;

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-join-the-european-union-or-stay-out-of-the-european-union/

    And "Brexit was a mistake" has a steady lead of about ten points;

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/

    I'm surprised that "stay out" isn't unambiguosly ahead, especially given that rejoin will be a faff and lock in worse (or less eurosceptic) terms than Dave's Mediocre Deal.

    But this is the recent poll that really ought to worry the government;

    As far as you are concerned, is Brexit ‘done’?

    All Britons
    It is - 28% / It isn't - 51%

    Remain
    It is - 20% / Isn't - 62%

    Leave
    It is - 40% / Isn't - 46%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/05/11/8055b/1?utm_source=twitter+&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1



    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1524427843886895105
    The precise form of Brexit may not be done, if Starmer got in for example he would align again closer to EU regulations but we will never rejoin the full EU again now, with the Euro and Schengen and all that entails.
    "never" is a bit silly and absolutist. I would think that by the time the current younger generation is middle aged and the current middle aged are largely dead (myself included) there could be a completely different view. Hopefully if I am still alive and PB is still a thing I can record some dribbly hysterical laughter to play on here to all the swivelly eyed war comic readers.
    I doubt it, even then at most they would accept something close to EEA rather than being just a region of a Federal EU superstate which it will probably be by then
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Visegrad 24 reporting that at least 73 RU vehicles destroyed at that river crossing.

    Good job!
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766
    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    Just because there a re a lot of prominent vocal bad losers from the Remain side doesn't mean that some of them didn't accept that they lost.
    We are not all bad losers, there is a huge amount of amusement to be had from losing a referendum to a coalition of fruitcakes and xenophobes for someone with my ironic sense of humour. The reality is that many Leavers, such as yourself are really really bad winners, and that is hilarious. One has to assume that it is dawning on even you that it was pointless.
    The way the EU and its supporters have carried on for the last six years rather justifies the vote, as it happens.
    To you perhaps. You are now in a minority according to opinion polling. You keep trying to convince yourself though, it provides amusement for the rest of us.
    If you aren't going to make the case for rejoining as a full member, including the euro and Schengen, then opinion polling is as irrelevant now as it was wrong then.
    I am not in favour of rejoining, though when, as seems likely, the young vote to do so, and assuming I am still alive I shall laugh and laugh at all you swivel-eyed nostalgia freaks who thought you could take England back to the 1950s.
    Lol. I voted Leave because the half-in/half-out status quo was unsustainable, and eventually we either had to be fully in, or out. And nobody on the Remain side was making the case for being fully in.
    This is perfectly sensible. A twin track / two speed Europe had been talked about for some time and has just been floated - again - by Macron. We were going to be on the outer ring as we're not in Schengen or the Euro so better to go under our own steam on our own terms than be flung out there by centrifugal forces.

    But - and its a very big but - what we have done since is fucking stupid.
    Oh, sure. But since far too many Remainers spent far too long refusing to accept defeat, we got stuck with what was acceptable to Leavers only because the most fucking stupid thing of all would have been for the public to have voted to Leave but the politicians to have overturned that vote.
    Theresa May shut down the option to have any functional trading ties in her Lancaster House speech of January 2017. What does that have to do with remainers?

    As for votes, we had a referendum. Then we had an election. That 2017 parliament was elected to do what it wished, you surely aren't stupid enough to insist that parliament wasn't sovereign and that its hands were tied by a previous parliament?
    If remainers hadn't already been fighting for months to overturn the result the Lancaster House speech wouldn't have been possible as a different consensus position would have already started to emerge. Not least because there shouldn't even have been a vacancy for May to fill.

    As for the 2017-19 parliament, I do not dispute that it had the right to do what it did. But having the right to do something and being right to do it are two different things - as was proven when all their anti-democratic manoeuverings proved counter-productive.
    You haven't answered my question - should the Labour Party in 2019 have just agreed to everything the Conservatives suggested because they lost the election and hence shouldn't have refused to accept defeat?
    Democratic politics, especially in a big-tent FPTP system, involves compromising with the electorate from time to time.

    There's a difference between opposing the government and saying that the people got it wrong.
    It is a distinction without a difference. If you oppose the government then by definition you think the people who put them there got it wrong.
    No, you think that the people who put you there got it right - and in any case, most of the time the government does get its way.

    But when there's a higher power of a referendum result in place, you need something extraordinary for ignoring it to be even close to democratic.
    Why is it a higher power? It is the same electorate that the following year was demonstrably split.

    This is what anti-second voters miss. It is the same people doing the voting. Hence perfectly democratically legitimate if hugely administratively difficult. The referendum was decided by the same people who vote in general elections.
    Because it's a direct instruction on a single issue, which is clearly a higher power on that single issue than electing a representative on a broad range of issues.
    Says you. It is the same electorate, making decisions.
    Well, you can deny the blindingly obvious if you want, but if you're going to do that I'll leave it there.
    I am sure you would have been arguing you arse off for another referendum if it have been the other way. English nats and Scottish nats have a lot in common. Democracy must be observed if it delivers the right result.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 2,720
    Applicant said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is why Zoom meetings aren't a good thing IMO. Someone allegedly gets sacked for rolling their eyes during one. A person wouldn't get fired for doing something like this during a face-to-face meeting.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10813021/Sacked-TAC-worker-claims-unfairly-dismissed.html

    I'm not sure that proves what you think it does. Are you claiming people have never been unfairly sacked for allegedly doing something face to face?

    The specifics in this case may be due to a Zoom meeting, but the problem was not the meeting being virtual, but someone acting like an idiot, and idiocy will bleed through in interactions virtual or face to face.

    I have, though, been told off for yawning during a meeting. They insisted I was not being told off for yawning, but clearly I was, and they seemed unable to answer what I was expected to take away from the comment, given it is an involuntary reaction. Apparently I should be aware of how others might perceive things, so whatever you do also do not cough or sneeze.
    Yeah, you have to be careful, as Jim Hacker found out.


    Bush the First did that in a debate with Clinton. Probably contributed to him losing the election.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,080

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    Just because there a re a lot of prominent vocal bad losers from the Remain side doesn't mean that some of them didn't accept that they lost.
    We are not all bad losers, there is a huge amount of amusement to be had from losing a referendum to a coalition of fruitcakes and xenophobes for someone with my ironic sense of humour. The reality is that many Leavers, such as yourself are really really bad winners, and that is hilarious. One has to assume that it is dawning on even you that it was pointless.
    The way the EU and its supporters have carried on for the last six years rather justifies the vote, as it happens.
    To you perhaps. You are now in a minority according to opinion polling. You keep trying to convince yourself though, it provides amusement for the rest of us.
    "Should the United Kingdom join the EU or stay out of the EU?"

    Join 49%
    Stay Out 51%

    Redfield & Wilton May 3

    85% of 2016 Leavers would still vote Leave, 15% Remain.
    76% of Remainers would still vote Remain, 24% Leave.
    64% of those who didn't vote would vote Remain
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1524128405087793152?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1521520052847185926?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    True for join/stay out, though other pollsters put join ahead on the same question;

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-join-the-european-union-or-stay-out-of-the-european-union/

    And "Brexit was a mistake" has a steady lead of about ten points;

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/

    I'm surprised that "stay out" isn't unambiguosly ahead, especially given that rejoin will be a faff and lock in worse (or less eurosceptic) terms than Dave's Mediocre Deal.

    But this is the recent poll that really ought to worry the government;

    As far as you are concerned, is Brexit ‘done’?

    All Britons
    It is - 28% / It isn't - 51%

    Remain
    It is - 20% / Isn't - 62%

    Leave
    It is - 40% / Isn't - 46%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/05/11/8055b/1?utm_source=twitter+&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1



    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1524427843886895105
    The precise form of Brexit may not be done, if Starmer got in for example he would align again closer to EU regulations but we will never rejoin the full EU again now, with the Euro and Schengen and all that entails.
    "never" is a bit silly and absolutist. I would think that by the time the current younger generation is middle aged and the current middle aged are largely dead (myself included) there could be a completely different view. Hopefully if I am still alive and PB is still a thing I can record some dribbly hysterical laughter to play on here to all the swivelly eyed war comic readers.
    And the two funniest things of all?

    First is that a win for Dave's Deal would have put the UK on a stable path within the EU but not in the Euro, not in Schengen, not in any new stuff.

    Second is that had the government gone for some version of EEA/CM2.0, they really could have secured the UK's position outside the EU. Nobody more mainstream of Andrew Adonis would have wanted the hassle of rejoining.

    By getting greedy and impatient, Boris and co might well properly lock the UK in Europe.

    If he's still alive, he'll be a shoe-in for the Napoleon Prize (since we're in a Yes, Minister mood.)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    Visegrad 24 reporting that at least 73 RU vehicles destroyed at that river crossing.


    May there be 1000 more. A shame they are still moving forwards, however slowly and costly that may be, in several regions.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,441

    HYUFD said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    Just because there a re a lot of prominent vocal bad losers from the Remain side doesn't mean that some of them didn't accept that they lost.
    We are not all bad losers, there is a huge amount of amusement to be had from losing a referendum to a coalition of fruitcakes and xenophobes for someone with my ironic sense of humour. The reality is that many Leavers, such as yourself are really really bad winners, and that is hilarious. One has to assume that it is dawning on even you that it was pointless.
    The way the EU and its supporters have carried on for the last six years rather justifies the vote, as it happens.
    To you perhaps. You are now in a minority according to opinion polling. You keep trying to convince yourself though, it provides amusement for the rest of us.
    "Should the United Kingdom join the EU or stay out of the EU?"

    Join 49%
    Stay Out 51%

    Redfield & Wilton May 3

    85% of 2016 Leavers would still vote Leave, 15% Remain.
    76% of Remainers would still vote Remain, 24% Leave.
    64% of those who didn't vote would vote Remain
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1524128405087793152?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1521520052847185926?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    True for join/stay out, though other pollsters put join ahead on the same question;

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-join-the-european-union-or-stay-out-of-the-european-union/

    And "Brexit was a mistake" has a steady lead of about ten points;

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/

    I'm surprised that "stay out" isn't unambiguosly ahead, especially given that rejoin will be a faff and lock in worse (or less eurosceptic) terms than Dave's Mediocre Deal.

    But this is the recent poll that really ought to worry the government;

    As far as you are concerned, is Brexit ‘done’?

    All Britons
    It is - 28% / It isn't - 51%

    Remain
    It is - 20% / Isn't - 62%

    Leave
    It is - 40% / Isn't - 46%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/05/11/8055b/1?utm_source=twitter+&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1



    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1524427843886895105
    The moment Brexit is done, what is the point of a Bluekip government? They will be delighted it is not perceived as done, not concerned.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,112

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    Just because there a re a lot of prominent vocal bad losers from the Remain side doesn't mean that some of them didn't accept that they lost.
    We are not all bad losers, there is a huge amount of amusement to be had from losing a referendum to a coalition of fruitcakes and xenophobes for someone with my ironic sense of humour. The reality is that many Leavers, such as yourself are really really bad winners, and that is hilarious. One has to assume that it is dawning on even you that it was pointless.
    The way the EU and its supporters have carried on for the last six years rather justifies the vote, as it happens.
    To you perhaps. You are now in a minority according to opinion polling. You keep trying to convince yourself though, it provides amusement for the rest of us.
    "Should the United Kingdom join the EU or stay out of the EU?"

    Join 49%
    Stay Out 51%

    Redfield & Wilton May 3

    85% of 2016 Leavers would still vote Leave, 15% Remain.
    76% of Remainers would still vote Remain, 24% Leave.
    64% of those who didn't vote would vote Remain
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1524128405087793152?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1521520052847185926?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    True for join/stay out, though other pollsters put join ahead on the same question;

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-join-the-european-union-or-stay-out-of-the-european-union/

    And "Brexit was a mistake" has a steady lead of about ten points;

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/

    I'm surprised that "stay out" isn't unambiguosly ahead, especially given that rejoin will be a faff and lock in worse (or less eurosceptic) terms than Dave's Mediocre Deal.

    But this is the recent poll that really ought to worry the government;

    As far as you are concerned, is Brexit ‘done’?

    All Britons
    It is - 28% / It isn't - 51%

    Remain
    It is - 20% / Isn't - 62%

    Leave
    It is - 40% / Isn't - 46%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/05/11/8055b/1?utm_source=twitter+&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1



    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1524427843886895105
    The precise form of Brexit may not be done, if Starmer got in for example he would align again closer to EU regulations but we will never rejoin the full EU again now, with the Euro and Schengen and all that entails.
    "never" is a bit silly and absolutist. I would think that by the time the current younger generation is middle aged and the current middle aged are largely dead (myself included) there could be a completely different view. Hopefully if I am still alive and PB is still a thing I can record some dribbly hysterical laughter to play on here to all the swivelly eyed war comic readers.
    You might have to qualify that. I was a bit taken aback to discover that the Commando comics of my youth are still being published, and a number of old issues have been republished, some twice.

    https://commandocomics.fandom.com/wiki/Riley's_Rifle
    https://commandocomics.fandom.com/wiki/The_Fighting_Few
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    Just because there a re a lot of prominent vocal bad losers from the Remain side doesn't mean that some of them didn't accept that they lost.
    We are not all bad losers, there is a huge amount of amusement to be had from losing a referendum to a coalition of fruitcakes and xenophobes for someone with my ironic sense of humour. The reality is that many Leavers, such as yourself are really really bad winners, and that is hilarious. One has to assume that it is dawning on even you that it was pointless.
    The way the EU and its supporters have carried on for the last six years rather justifies the vote, as it happens.
    To you perhaps. You are now in a minority according to opinion polling. You keep trying to convince yourself though, it provides amusement for the rest of us.
    If you aren't going to make the case for rejoining as a full member, including the euro and Schengen, then opinion polling is as irrelevant now as it was wrong then.
    I am not in favour of rejoining, though when, as seems likely, the young vote to do so, and assuming I am still alive I shall laugh and laugh at all you swivel-eyed nostalgia freaks who thought you could take England back to the 1950s.
    Lol. I voted Leave because the half-in/half-out status quo was unsustainable, and eventually we either had to be fully in, or out. And nobody on the Remain side was making the case for being fully in.
    This is perfectly sensible. A twin track / two speed Europe had been talked about for some time and has just been floated - again - by Macron. We were going to be on the outer ring as we're not in Schengen or the Euro so better to go under our own steam on our own terms than be flung out there by centrifugal forces.

    But - and its a very big but - what we have done since is fucking stupid.
    Oh, sure. But since far too many Remainers spent far too long refusing to accept defeat, we got stuck with what was acceptable to Leavers only because the most fucking stupid thing of all would have been for the public to have voted to Leave but the politicians to have overturned that vote.
    Theresa May shut down the option to have any functional trading ties in her Lancaster House speech of January 2017. What does that have to do with remainers?

    As for votes, we had a referendum. Then we had an election. That 2017 parliament was elected to do what it wished, you surely aren't stupid enough to insist that parliament wasn't sovereign and that its hands were tied by a previous parliament?
    If remainers hadn't already been fighting for months to overturn the result the Lancaster House speech wouldn't have been possible as a different consensus position would have already started to emerge. Not least because there shouldn't even have been a vacancy for May to fill.

    As for the 2017-19 parliament, I do not dispute that it had the right to do what it did. But having the right to do something and being right to do it are two different things - as was proven when all their anti-democratic manoeuverings proved counter-productive.
    You haven't answered my question - should the Labour Party in 2019 have just agreed to everything the Conservatives suggested because they lost the election and hence shouldn't have refused to accept defeat?
    Democratic politics, especially in a big-tent FPTP system, involves compromising with the electorate from time to time.

    There's a difference between opposing the government and saying that the people got it wrong.
    It is a distinction without a difference. If you oppose the government then by definition you think the people who put them there got it wrong.
    No, you think that the people who put you there got it right - and in any case, most of the time the government does get its way.

    But when there's a higher power of a referendum result in place, you need something extraordinary for ignoring it to be even close to democratic.
    Why is it a higher power? It is the same electorate that the following year was demonstrably split.

    This is what anti-second voters miss. It is the same people doing the voting. Hence perfectly democratically legitimate if hugely administratively difficult. The referendum was decided by the same people who vote in general elections.
    Because it's a direct instruction on a single issue, which is clearly a higher power on that single issue than electing a representative on a broad range of issues.
    Says you. It is the same electorate, making decisions.
    Well, you can deny the blindingly obvious if you want, but if you're going to do that I'll leave it there.
    I am sure you would have been arguing you arse off for another referendum if it have been the other way. English nats and Scottish nats have a lot in common. Democracy must be observed if it delivers the right result.
    Nope. If it had gone the other way I would have been arguing to join the euro and Schengen - if we were going to be in, we should have been properly in.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,780
    Isn't Sweden effectively in NATO already?

    Sweden > UK > US > NATO? What's the likelihood they could now be attacked and it wouldn't pull in all the major players?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,708
    edited May 2022
    Eabhal said:

    Isn't Sweden effectively in NATO already?

    Sweden > UK > US > NATO? What's the likelihood they could now be attacked and it wouldn't pull in all the major players?

    There is no obligation for NATO members to defend a non NATO state, what Putin does over Finland in the next few weeks before it formally starts the process to join NATO will be interesting and Sweden will be watching too
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Eabhal said:

    Isn't Sweden effectively in NATO already?

    Sweden > UK > US > NATO? What's the likelihood they could now be attacked and it wouldn't pull in all the major players?

    Limited perhaps. But that would make a decision to go from 'effectively in' to 'in' all the more significant, as it would demonstrate the formality of membership was regarded as still necessary.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    Just because there a re a lot of prominent vocal bad losers from the Remain side doesn't mean that some of them didn't accept that they lost.
    We are not all bad losers, there is a huge amount of amusement to be had from losing a referendum to a coalition of fruitcakes and xenophobes for someone with my ironic sense of humour. The reality is that many Leavers, such as yourself are really really bad winners, and that is hilarious. One has to assume that it is dawning on even you that it was pointless.
    The way the EU and its supporters have carried on for the last six years rather justifies the vote, as it happens.
    To you perhaps. You are now in a minority according to opinion polling. You keep trying to convince yourself though, it provides amusement for the rest of us.
    "Should the United Kingdom join the EU or stay out of the EU?"

    Join 49%
    Stay Out 51%

    Redfield & Wilton May 3

    85% of 2016 Leavers would still vote Leave, 15% Remain.
    76% of Remainers would still vote Remain, 24% Leave.
    64% of those who didn't vote would vote Remain
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1524128405087793152?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1521520052847185926?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    True for join/stay out, though other pollsters put join ahead on the same question;

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-join-the-european-union-or-stay-out-of-the-european-union/

    And "Brexit was a mistake" has a steady lead of about ten points;

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/

    I'm surprised that "stay out" isn't unambiguosly ahead, especially given that rejoin will be a faff and lock in worse (or less eurosceptic) terms than Dave's Mediocre Deal.

    But this is the recent poll that really ought to worry the government;

    As far as you are concerned, is Brexit ‘done’?

    All Britons
    It is - 28% / It isn't - 51%

    Remain
    It is - 20% / Isn't - 62%

    Leave
    It is - 40% / Isn't - 46%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/05/11/8055b/1?utm_source=twitter+&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1



    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1524427843886895105
    The precise form of Brexit may not be done, if Starmer got in for example he would align again closer to EU regulations but we will never rejoin the full EU again now, with the Euro and Schengen and all that entails.
    "never" is a bit silly and absolutist. I would think that by the time the current younger generation is middle aged and the current middle aged are largely dead (myself included) there could be a completely different view. Hopefully if I am still alive and PB is still a thing I can record some dribbly hysterical laughter to play on here to all the swivelly eyed war comic readers.
    And the two funniest things of all?

    First is that a win for Dave's Deal would have put the UK on a stable path within the EU but not in the Euro, not in Schengen, not in any new stuff.

    Second is that had the government gone for some version of EEA/CM2.0, they really could have secured the UK's position outside the EU. Nobody more mainstream of Andrew Adonis would have wanted the hassle of rejoining.

    By getting greedy and impatient, Boris and co might well properly lock the UK in Europe.

    If he's still alive, he'll be a shoe-in for the Napoleon Prize (since we're in a Yes, Minister mood.)
    It's so endlessly amusing seeing Europhiles do victory laps based on what they see as definitely going to happen, even as each of their previous predictions of what was definitely going to happen has failed spectacularly.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,708

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    Just because there a re a lot of prominent vocal bad losers from the Remain side doesn't mean that some of them didn't accept that they lost.
    We are not all bad losers, there is a huge amount of amusement to be had from losing a referendum to a coalition of fruitcakes and xenophobes for someone with my ironic sense of humour. The reality is that many Leavers, such as yourself are really really bad winners, and that is hilarious. One has to assume that it is dawning on even you that it was pointless.
    The way the EU and its supporters have carried on for the last six years rather justifies the vote, as it happens.
    To you perhaps. You are now in a minority according to opinion polling. You keep trying to convince yourself though, it provides amusement for the rest of us.
    "Should the United Kingdom join the EU or stay out of the EU?"

    Join 49%
    Stay Out 51%

    Redfield & Wilton May 3

    85% of 2016 Leavers would still vote Leave, 15% Remain.
    76% of Remainers would still vote Remain, 24% Leave.
    64% of those who didn't vote would vote Remain
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1524128405087793152?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1521520052847185926?s=20&t=7KXs5bNrx-gfP5UK6geCVg
    True for join/stay out, though other pollsters put join ahead on the same question;

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-join-the-european-union-or-stay-out-of-the-european-union/

    And "Brexit was a mistake" has a steady lead of about ten points;

    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/

    I'm surprised that "stay out" isn't unambiguosly ahead, especially given that rejoin will be a faff and lock in worse (or less eurosceptic) terms than Dave's Mediocre Deal.

    But this is the recent poll that really ought to worry the government;

    As far as you are concerned, is Brexit ‘done’?

    All Britons
    It is - 28% / It isn't - 51%

    Remain
    It is - 20% / Isn't - 62%

    Leave
    It is - 40% / Isn't - 46%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/05/11/8055b/1?utm_source=twitter+&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1



    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1524427843886895105
    The precise form of Brexit may not be done, if Starmer got in for example he would align again closer to EU regulations but we will never rejoin the full EU again now, with the Euro and Schengen and all that entails.
    "never" is a bit silly and absolutist. I would think that by the time the current younger generation is middle aged and the current middle aged are largely dead (myself included) there could be a completely different view. Hopefully if I am still alive and PB is still a thing I can record some dribbly hysterical laughter to play on here to all the swivelly eyed war comic readers.
    And the two funniest things of all?

    First is that a win for Dave's Deal would have put the UK on a stable path within the EU but not in the Euro, not in Schengen, not in any new stuff.

    Second is that had the government gone for some version of EEA/CM2.0, they really could have secured the UK's position outside the EU. Nobody more mainstream of Andrew Adonis would have wanted the hassle of rejoining.

    By getting greedy and impatient, Boris and co might well properly lock the UK in Europe.

    If he's still alive, he'll be a shoe-in for the Napoleon Prize (since we're in a Yes, Minister mood.)
    No, that would have been No Deal, as it is we have a FTA with the EU while ending free movement and having greater control of immigration
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,279

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    The Labour Party went from being very anti-EEC/EU to pro-EEC/EU in less than 10 years.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Andy_JS said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    The Labour Party went from being very anti-EEC/EU to pro-EEC/EU in less than 10 years.
    The Social Chapter under Maastricht.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,729
    edited May 2022
    CatMan said:

    Applicant said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is why Zoom meetings aren't a good thing IMO. Someone allegedly gets sacked for rolling their eyes during one. A person wouldn't get fired for doing something like this during a face-to-face meeting.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10813021/Sacked-TAC-worker-claims-unfairly-dismissed.html

    I'm not sure that proves what you think it does. Are you claiming people have never been unfairly sacked for allegedly doing something face to face?

    The specifics in this case may be due to a Zoom meeting, but the problem was not the meeting being virtual, but someone acting like an idiot, and idiocy will bleed through in interactions virtual or face to face.

    I have, though, been told off for yawning during a meeting. They insisted I was not being told off for yawning, but clearly I was, and they seemed unable to answer what I was expected to take away from the comment, given it is an involuntary reaction. Apparently I should be aware of how others might perceive things, so whatever you do also do not cough or sneeze.
    Yeah, you have to be careful, as Jim Hacker found out.


    Bush the First did that in a debate with Clinton. Probably contributed to him losing the election.
    Conversation earlier, during a lesson on impeachment:

    'Only been used four times. Johnson, Trump (twice) and Bill Clinton.'

    Student 'Is that Hilary Clinton's husband, sir?'

    Me (rapid double take): 'Yes [quick explanation as to why].'

    Student: 'You mean he cheated on her sir?'

    Me, weakly, 'Well, I suppose that's one way of putting it...'

    I suddenly know today what people mean when they say they feel old...
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    I don't know if anyone heard J R-M on radio 4 this morning but he was dreadful. He's an ongoing car crash......

    While I was listening I wondered why Johnson would choose someone as unattractive to be the face of the Party. The only thing I could think-and it was a long shot-was that Rees Mogg is the closest in accent and demeanour to Johnson himself and he thought the comparison might show him in a good light.

    You’ve never particularly mastered the literary art of the “unexpected opening line” or the “arresting first concept” have you?
    Is it true that you're related to felix?

    Thanks for the tip Leon. I'll certainly have a go.

    "The literary art of the unexpected opening line" sounds good.







  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,555
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh dear. Life is just a little more complicated than you think it is. The real world is about compromise and subtlety, particularly in negotiation. It is not just about "force" and bombast.

    You sound exactly like those French diplomats and German intellectuals who sneer at Ukraine's lack of subtlety and poor understanding of the greater issues at stake.
    And you sound like a complete twat that has completely changed his position from one massive extreme to the other. Your EU-philia used to make even me who is a Brexit-sceptic cringe, and now you are a fully fledged headbanging swivel-eyed Brexiteer. That is not a subtle change, it is a full on credibility shred. When everyone else is gradually realising that Brexit is pointless, you fully embrace it. When does the wind change again?
    While I am as wide-eyed amazed as anyone (everyone) else at @williamglenn's transformation I would hesitate to go down the "complete twat" route. Such a dramatic conversion, assuming it's not trolling, which it very possibly is, indicates something going on more than we may know.

    And I include myself in that entreaty.
    The xenophobic comments he now makes put him firmly in the "complete twat" camp from my perspective. I have to wonder whether his account has been hacked by someone else.
    That's ridiculous, yes he's had an about-turn, but so has Rochdale and nobody questions that, but he's never said anything xenophobic.

    People can change their mind and the notion of the "zeal of the convert" exists for a reason.
    The zeal of the convert is rarely a compliment. People do change their mind, but rarely from one extreme to the other. It is quite frankly ludicrous and lacks credibility.
    The Labour Party went from being very anti-EEC/EU to pro-EEC/EU in less than 10 years.
    The Social Chapter under Maastricht.
    The realisation that a left-wing government probably wouldn't win in the UK again, so socialism would have to come from bypassing democracy with rules from Brussels. And the bigwigs could get lucrative non-jobs in the EU bureaucracy as it swelled.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206
    My travels continue. After Greece in about ten days I have another mad gap to fill - has anyone been to Georgia? I hear Tbilisi is amazing. I’ve never been - but always wanted to go…

    I’m in a fantastically Greek fish restaurant where everyone is Greek and they barely speak English and they serve white wine in metal jugs and those cheap classes you got at school.

    I’ve worked out that this is brilliant reverse psychology. If cheap local wine is served like this, in such a primitive way with zero fuss, you expect very little of it, and it nearly always surprises on the upside, so you enjoy it more

    Sommeliers of London take note
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,741
    Early evening all :)

    Fine evening here in downtown Newham.

    Just a reminder the Nordrhein/Westfalen regional election is on Sunday.

    Final poll out today from Forschunggruppe (for ZDF):
    Forschunggruppe (2254 respondents, fieldwork 9/5-12/5): (changes from 2017):

    CDU: 32% (-1)
    SPD: 29% (-2)
    Greens: 17% (+11)
    AfD: 7% (nc)
    FDP: 6% (-7)
    Linke: 3% (-2)

    The FDP dropping out the Landtag would be significant but I suspect they'll survive. The question is whether an SPD/Green government might take over. They clearly have the numbers and after last week's strong CDU performance, a more disappointing effort likely from the Federal Opposition.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 3,769
    Leon said:

    My travels continue. After Greece in about ten days I have another mad gap to fill - has anyone been to Georgia? I hear Tbilisi is amazing. I’ve never been - but always wanted to go…

    I’m in a fantastically Greek fish restaurant where everyone is Greek and they barely speak English and they serve white wine in metal jugs and those cheap classes you got at school.

    I’ve worked out that this is brilliant reverse psychology. If cheap local wine is served like this, in such a primitive way with zero fuss, you expect very little of it, and it nearly always surprises on the upside, so you enjoy it more

    Sommeliers of London take note

    There is something about drinking wine out of “non” wine glasses. It seems to change the whole feel about drinking wine and takes it away from something to take seriously into being a drink that’s as casual as beer.

    There are times to have the specific correct wine glass and times to sit with someone and a couple of glass beakers with a bottle of wine and not get overly twatty about it being wine - just another suitable alcoholic drink in the situation you are in.

    Maybe like wearing a suit with brown shoes or without a tie.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,741
    In terms of re-joining the European Union, the obvious stumbling block remains what it always has been - Freedom of Movement. Without Freedom of Movement, there's no Single Market so what's the point?

    There's no problem with any future Government seeking a more "favourable" relationship with the EU though favourable to who is always open to question. I suspect there will be cyclical periods of reasonably good relations and fairly frosty relations with Brussels in the decades to come.

    It may be Europe helps use out by a divergent evolution - inner core members moving towards full union while the outer core retains the economic association without the political (whether that extends to SM participation without FoM I don't know).

    I think it unlikely but at present the only certainty I can see is uncertainty - the 2020s and I suspect beyond will challenge existing organisations, institutions, structures and even beliefs far more than the previous 20-30 years.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    Unusually, there's a ring of truth about this.
    Doesn't he work from home as PM... ?

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1525150080801685504
    Boris Johnson on wfh culture: 'You spend an awful lot of time making another cup of coffee, getting up, walking very slowly to the fridge, hacking off a small piece of cheese, then walking very slowly back and then forgetting what it was you're doing...'
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    ydoethur said:

    CatMan said:

    Applicant said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is why Zoom meetings aren't a good thing IMO. Someone allegedly gets sacked for rolling their eyes during one. A person wouldn't get fired for doing something like this during a face-to-face meeting.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10813021/Sacked-TAC-worker-claims-unfairly-dismissed.html

    I'm not sure that proves what you think it does. Are you claiming people have never been unfairly sacked for allegedly doing something face to face?

    The specifics in this case may be due to a Zoom meeting, but the problem was not the meeting being virtual, but someone acting like an idiot, and idiocy will bleed through in interactions virtual or face to face.

    I have, though, been told off for yawning during a meeting. They insisted I was not being told off for yawning, but clearly I was, and they seemed unable to answer what I was expected to take away from the comment, given it is an involuntary reaction. Apparently I should be aware of how others might perceive things, so whatever you do also do not cough or sneeze.
    Yeah, you have to be careful, as Jim Hacker found out.


    Bush the First did that in a debate with Clinton. Probably contributed to him losing the election.
    Conversation earlier, during a lesson on impeachment:

    'Only been used four times. Johnson, Trump (twice) and Bill Clinton.'

    Student 'Is that Hilary Clinton's husband, sir?'

    Me (rapid double take): 'Yes [quick explanation as to why].'

    Student: 'You mean he cheated on her sir?'

    Me, weakly, 'Well, I suppose that's one way of putting it...'

    I suddenly know today what people mean when they say they feel old...
    Welcome to the world of the rest of PB.
    :smile:
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Nigelb said:

    Unusually, there's a ring of truth about this.
    Doesn't he work from home as PM... ?

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1525150080801685504
    Boris Johnson on wfh culture: 'You spend an awful lot of time making another cup of coffee, getting up, walking very slowly to the fridge, hacking off a small piece of cheese, then walking very slowly back and then forgetting what it was you're doing...'

    Not exactly the same, as his house is host to a large number of offices and staff.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,279
    O/T

    Just discovered a really great pop song from 1978 — The Shirts with Tell Me Your Plans.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikQaotE97wA
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Unusually, there's a ring of truth about this.
    Doesn't he work from home as PM... ?

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1525150080801685504
    Boris Johnson on wfh culture: 'You spend an awful lot of time making another cup of coffee, getting up, walking very slowly to the fridge, hacking off a small piece of cheese, then walking very slowly back and then forgetting what it was you're doing...'

    Not exactly the same, as his house is host to a large number of offices and staff.
    I feel you're slightly missing the point here.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,592
    edited May 2022
    kle4 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Isn't Sweden effectively in NATO already?

    Sweden > UK > US > NATO? What's the likelihood they could now be attacked and it wouldn't pull in all the major players?

    Limited perhaps. But that would make a decision to go from 'effectively in' to 'in' all the more significant, as it would demonstrate the formality of membership was regarded as still necessary.
    During the Cold War, both Finland and Sweden were far closer to the West than the East. In the event of war, the Russian war plans were to invade both - and they knew it. Their neutrality would be respected like that of Belgium - in both world wars....

    Sweden Finland, the UK and the Baltics have been in a formal military alliance for a decade - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Joint_Expeditionary_Force

    The recent announcement of mutual defence between the UK, Sweden and Finland is a re-stating the existing position.

    This is to make absolutely sure, in small words, written large, that even the idiot in the Kremlin can't miss, that Finland and Sweden are considered close allies of the UK. See the Guns of August as to why that is a good idea*.

    *History What If - Edward Grey tells the House of Commons that "of course" the Belgian treaty is important to the UK and that any violation of it would mean war.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Unusually, there's a ring of truth about this.
    Doesn't he work from home as PM... ?

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1525150080801685504
    Boris Johnson on wfh culture: 'You spend an awful lot of time making another cup of coffee, getting up, walking very slowly to the fridge, hacking off a small piece of cheese, then walking very slowly back and then forgetting what it was you're doing...'

    Not exactly the same, as his house is host to a large number of offices and staff.
    I feel you're slightly missing the point here.
    What point was that? Sorry, just got back from the kitchen.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    CatMan said:

    Applicant said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is why Zoom meetings aren't a good thing IMO. Someone allegedly gets sacked for rolling their eyes during one. A person wouldn't get fired for doing something like this during a face-to-face meeting.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10813021/Sacked-TAC-worker-claims-unfairly-dismissed.html

    I'm not sure that proves what you think it does. Are you claiming people have never been unfairly sacked for allegedly doing something face to face?

    The specifics in this case may be due to a Zoom meeting, but the problem was not the meeting being virtual, but someone acting like an idiot, and idiocy will bleed through in interactions virtual or face to face.

    I have, though, been told off for yawning during a meeting. They insisted I was not being told off for yawning, but clearly I was, and they seemed unable to answer what I was expected to take away from the comment, given it is an involuntary reaction. Apparently I should be aware of how others might perceive things, so whatever you do also do not cough or sneeze.
    Yeah, you have to be careful, as Jim Hacker found out.


    Bush the First did that in a debate with Clinton. Probably contributed to him losing the election.
    Conversation earlier, during a lesson on impeachment:

    'Only been used four times. Johnson, Trump (twice) and Bill Clinton.'

    Student 'Is that Hilary Clinton's husband, sir?'

    Me (rapid double take): 'Yes [quick explanation as to why].'

    Student: 'You mean he cheated on her sir?'

    Me, weakly, 'Well, I suppose that's one way of putting it...'

    I suddenly know today what people mean when they say they feel old...
    Welcome to the world of the rest of PB.
    :smile:
    Nixon?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,592
    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    My travels continue. After Greece in about ten days I have another mad gap to fill - has anyone been to Georgia? I hear Tbilisi is amazing. I’ve never been - but always wanted to go…

    I’m in a fantastically Greek fish restaurant where everyone is Greek and they barely speak English and they serve white wine in metal jugs and those cheap classes you got at school.

    I’ve worked out that this is brilliant reverse psychology. If cheap local wine is served like this, in such a primitive way with zero fuss, you expect very little of it, and it nearly always surprises on the upside, so you enjoy it more

    Sommeliers of London take note

    There is something about drinking wine out of “non” wine glasses. It seems to change the whole feel about drinking wine and takes it away from something to take seriously into being a drink that’s as casual as beer.

    There are times to have the specific correct wine glass and times to sit with someone and a couple of glass beakers with a bottle of wine and not get overly twatty about it being wine - just another suitable alcoholic drink in the situation you are in.

    Maybe like wearing a suit with brown shoes or without a tie.
    In some of the best French vineyards, you used to get offered a tumbler of the weird and wonderful blended stuff they would make for themselves in the back. Sadly, the practice of making that kind of thing has been stamped out.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,096
    This Wakefield fiasco beggars belief.

    I'm afraid it's time Keir Starmer stood down. Tone deaf to the red wall.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,096
    Nigelb said:

    Unusually, there's a ring of truth about this.
    Doesn't he work from home as PM... ?

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1525150080801685504
    Boris Johnson on wfh culture: 'You spend an awful lot of time making another cup of coffee, getting up, walking very slowly to the fridge, hacking off a small piece of cheese, then walking very slowly back and then forgetting what it was you're doing...'

    As opposed to spending an awful lot of time standing up in a crowded train and tube carriage for 2 hrs + a day.

    He's such a dick.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,729
    Leon said:

    My travels continue. After Greece in about ten days I have another mad gap to fill - has anyone been to Georgia? I hear Tbilisi is amazing. I’ve never been - but always wanted to go…

    I’m in a fantastically Greek fish restaurant where everyone is Greek and they barely speak English and they serve white wine in metal jugs and those cheap classes you got at school.

    None of my classes are cheap and not being Susan Acland-Hood I’ve never served wine in any of them either.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    My travels continue. After Greece in about ten days I have another mad gap to fill - has anyone been to Georgia? I hear Tbilisi is amazing. I’ve never been - but always wanted to go…

    I’m in a fantastically Greek fish restaurant where everyone is Greek and they barely speak English and they serve white wine in metal jugs and those cheap classes you got at school.

    None of my classes are cheap and not being Susan Acland-Hood I’ve never served wine in any of them either.
    Expensive and cheap then!
  • boulayboulay Posts: 3,769
    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    My travels continue. After Greece in about ten days I have another mad gap to fill - has anyone been to Georgia? I hear Tbilisi is amazing. I’ve never been - but always wanted to go…

    I’m in a fantastically Greek fish restaurant where everyone is Greek and they barely speak English and they serve white wine in metal jugs and those cheap classes you got at school.

    None of my classes are cheap and not being Susan Acland-Hood I’ve never served wine in any of them either.
    Expensive and cheap then!
    Like the “Wagatha Christie” trial…
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    boulay said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    My travels continue. After Greece in about ten days I have another mad gap to fill - has anyone been to Georgia? I hear Tbilisi is amazing. I’ve never been - but always wanted to go…

    I’m in a fantastically Greek fish restaurant where everyone is Greek and they barely speak English and they serve white wine in metal jugs and those cheap classes you got at school.

    None of my classes are cheap and not being Susan Acland-Hood I’ve never served wine in any of them either.
    Expensive and cheap then!
    Like the “Wagatha Christie” trial…
    I don't keep up with currant bun events.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,708
    edited May 2022
    Heathener said:

    This Wakefield fiasco beggars belief.

    I'm afraid it's time Keir Starmer stood down. Tone deaf to the red wall.

    The largest percentage of Labour members are based in North London and elected Sir Keir their leader due to his previous efforts trying to stop Brexit. Why would they care what the Brexit voting oiks in the redwall think? If that means imposing candidates on Northern Labour parties so be it
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    edited May 2022
    Nigelb said:

    Unusually, there's a ring of truth about this.
    Doesn't he work from home as PM... ?

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1525150080801685504
    Boris Johnson on wfh culture: 'You spend an awful lot of time making another cup of coffee, getting up, walking very slowly to the fridge, hacking off a small piece of cheese, then walking very slowly back and then forgetting what it was you're doing...'

    He really is a bit of a spanner, and clearly unaware of how much the processes of most organisations are highly automated today. Even if you did have the memory of a goldfish most people will have some sort of task list in front of them when they return to their desk.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,080
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Unusually, there's a ring of truth about this.
    Doesn't he work from home as PM... ?

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1525150080801685504
    Boris Johnson on wfh culture: 'You spend an awful lot of time making another cup of coffee, getting up, walking very slowly to the fridge, hacking off a small piece of cheese, then walking very slowly back and then forgetting what it was you're doing...'

    Not exactly the same, as his house is host to a large number of offices and staff.
    Why does anyone want coffee with cheese?

    Does he know how fat nibbling cheese all day makes you?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,042
    MattW said:

    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Unusually, there's a ring of truth about this.
    Doesn't he work from home as PM... ?

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1525150080801685504
    Boris Johnson on wfh culture: 'You spend an awful lot of time making another cup of coffee, getting up, walking very slowly to the fridge, hacking off a small piece of cheese, then walking very slowly back and then forgetting what it was you're doing...'

    Not exactly the same, as his house is host to a large number of offices and staff.
    Why does anyone want coffee with cheese?

    Does he know how fat nibbling cheese all day makes you?
    I'm going with 'yes'.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,182
    The news from Wakefield Labour has to be good news for David Herdson and the Yorkshire Party, presumably?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 3,769
    Omnium said:

    boulay said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    My travels continue. After Greece in about ten days I have another mad gap to fill - has anyone been to Georgia? I hear Tbilisi is amazing. I’ve never been - but always wanted to go…

    I’m in a fantastically Greek fish restaurant where everyone is Greek and they barely speak English and they serve white wine in metal jugs and those cheap classes you got at school.

    None of my classes are cheap and not being Susan Acland-Hood I’ve never served wine in any of them either.
    Expensive and cheap then!
    Like the “Wagatha Christie” trial…
    I don't keep up with currant bun events.
    Some of us are oiks and dwell in the lower echelons of society unfortunately. One day we might drag ourselves up to broadsheet people and mores.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    Macron not flavour of the month in Ukraine

    Volodymyr Zelensky has hit out at Emmanuel Macron and accused him of trying "in vain" to have a constructive dialogue with the Russian President.

    "We must not look for a way out for Russia, and Macron is doing it in vain," the Ukrainian President told the Italian TV channel Rai 1.

    "I know he wanted to get results from mediation between Russia and Ukraine, but he didn't get any," Mr Zelensky said in an interview that was published on his Telegram channel.

    The Elysee said that Mr Macron had "never discussed anything with Vladimir Putin without the agreement of President Zelensky".

    "He has always said that it is up to the Ukrainians to decide the terms of their negotiation with the Russians."
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,592
    edited May 2022
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    My travels continue. After Greece in about ten days I have another mad gap to fill - has anyone been to Georgia? I hear Tbilisi is amazing. I’ve never been - but always wanted to go…

    I’m in a fantastically Greek fish restaurant where everyone is Greek and they barely speak English and they serve white wine in metal jugs and those cheap classes you got at school.

    None of my classes are cheap and not being Susan Acland-Hood I’ve never served wine in any of them either.
    My A level Maths tutor served glasses of wine to his students (parents permission) - he was a family friend.

    He’d collected a vast supply of wine in the Second World War - he’d been in one of those outfits hunting down German tech, and he’d done quite a bit of wine shopping in France on the way.

    ‘44 and ‘45 were very good years
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,441
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Unusually, there's a ring of truth about this.
    Doesn't he work from home as PM... ?

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1525150080801685504
    Boris Johnson on wfh culture: 'You spend an awful lot of time making another cup of coffee, getting up, walking very slowly to the fridge, hacking off a small piece of cheese, then walking very slowly back and then forgetting what it was you're doing...'

    Not exactly the same, as his house is host to a large number of offices and staff.
    Not to mention wine, karaoke, cakes and more wine........
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,080
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    CatMan said:

    Applicant said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is why Zoom meetings aren't a good thing IMO. Someone allegedly gets sacked for rolling their eyes during one. A person wouldn't get fired for doing something like this during a face-to-face meeting.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10813021/Sacked-TAC-worker-claims-unfairly-dismissed.html

    I'm not sure that proves what you think it does. Are you claiming people have never been unfairly sacked for allegedly doing something face to face?

    The specifics in this case may be due to a Zoom meeting, but the problem was not the meeting being virtual, but someone acting like an idiot, and idiocy will bleed through in interactions virtual or face to face.

    I have, though, been told off for yawning during a meeting. They insisted I was not being told off for yawning, but clearly I was, and they seemed unable to answer what I was expected to take away from the comment, given it is an involuntary reaction. Apparently I should be aware of how others might perceive things, so whatever you do also do not cough or sneeze.
    Yeah, you have to be careful, as Jim Hacker found out.


    Bush the First did that in a debate with Clinton. Probably contributed to him losing the election.
    Conversation earlier, during a lesson on impeachment:

    'Only been used four times. Johnson, Trump (twice) and Bill Clinton.'

    Student 'Is that Hilary Clinton's husband, sir?'

    Me (rapid double take): 'Yes [quick explanation as to why].'

    Student: 'You mean he cheated on her sir?'

    Me, weakly, 'Well, I suppose that's one way of putting it...'

    I suddenly know today what people mean when they say they feel old...
    Welcome to the world of the rest of PB.
    :smile:
    Isn't "sexually harassed / abused his intern" a more suitable phrase in 2022, bearing in mind the position of authority / employment realtions?

    Perhaps give the account, including their employment relations, and ask them what they would call it?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Omnium said:

    boulay said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    My travels continue. After Greece in about ten days I have another mad gap to fill - has anyone been to Georgia? I hear Tbilisi is amazing. I’ve never been - but always wanted to go…

    I’m in a fantastically Greek fish restaurant where everyone is Greek and they barely speak English and they serve white wine in metal jugs and those cheap classes you got at school.

    None of my classes are cheap and not being Susan Acland-Hood I’ve never served wine in any of them either.
    Expensive and cheap then!
    Like the “Wagatha Christie” trial…
    I don't keep up with currant bun events.
    If that were true you wouldn't have got the reference
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    My travels continue. After Greece in about ten days I have another mad gap to fill - has anyone been to Georgia? I hear Tbilisi is amazing. I’ve never been - but always wanted to go…

    I’m in a fantastically Greek fish restaurant where everyone is Greek and they barely speak English and they serve white wine in metal jugs and those cheap classes you got at school.

    None of my classes are cheap and not being Susan Acland-Hood I’ve never served wine in any of them either.
    My A level Maths tutor served glasses of wine to his students (parents permission) - he was a family friend.

    He’d collected a vast supply of wine in the Second World War - he’d been in one of those outfits hunting down German tech, and he’d done quite a bit of wine shopping in France on the way.

    ‘44 and ‘45 were very good years
    1945 was a top year for Bordeaux especially (I've had the Gruaud Larose, which was absolutely superb at about 60 years old). 1944 wasn't particularly good, though.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    thread unfortunately in davey jones's locker

  • boulayboulay Posts: 3,769
    IshmaelZ said:

    thread unfortunately in davey jones's locker

    😂.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,006
    HYUFD said:

    Heathener said:

    This Wakefield fiasco beggars belief.

    I'm afraid it's time Keir Starmer stood down. Tone deaf to the red wall.

    The largest percentage of Labour members are based in North London and elected Sir Keir their leader due to his previous efforts trying to stop Brexit. Why would they care what the Brexit voting oiks in the redwall think? If that means imposing candidates on Northern Labour parties so be it
    Considering the farce of your party of crooks imposing someone on North Shropshire who turned up and told people he had no idea where he was, you may want to shut up picking on Labour. BOTH of you make stupid decisions.

    Its that massive plank in your eye again HY...
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,138

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    My travels continue. After Greece in about ten days I have another mad gap to fill - has anyone been to Georgia? I hear Tbilisi is amazing. I’ve never been - but always wanted to go…

    I’m in a fantastically Greek fish restaurant where everyone is Greek and they barely speak English and they serve white wine in metal jugs and those cheap classes you got at school.

    I’ve worked out that this is brilliant reverse psychology. If cheap local wine is served like this, in such a primitive way with zero fuss, you expect very little of it, and it nearly always surprises on the upside, so you enjoy it more

    Sommeliers of London take note

    There is something about drinking wine out of “non” wine glasses. It seems to change the whole feel about drinking wine and takes it away from something to take seriously into being a drink that’s as casual as beer.

    There are times to have the specific correct wine glass and times to sit with someone and a couple of glass beakers with a bottle of wine and not get overly twatty about it being wine - just another suitable alcoholic drink in the situation you are in.

    Maybe like wearing a suit with brown shoes or without a tie.
    In some of the best French vineyards, you used to get offered a tumbler of the weird and wonderful blended stuff they would make for themselves in the back. Sadly, the practice of making that kind of thing has been stamped out.
    Piquette. Close to being re-authorised in the UK, and there are some vineyards that make it (but have to call it something like aromatised alcoholic beverage). Grape pressings mixed with water and sugar and brewed into a kind of cidery drink.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,741

    Macron not flavour of the month in Ukraine

    Volodymyr Zelensky has hit out at Emmanuel Macron and accused him of trying "in vain" to have a constructive dialogue with the Russian President.

    "We must not look for a way out for Russia, and Macron is doing it in vain," the Ukrainian President told the Italian TV channel Rai 1.

    "I know he wanted to get results from mediation between Russia and Ukraine, but he didn't get any," Mr Zelensky said in an interview that was published on his Telegram channel.

    The Elysee said that Mr Macron had "never discussed anything with Vladimir Putin without the agreement of President Zelensky".

    "He has always said that it is up to the Ukrainians to decide the terms of their negotiation with the Russians."

    Well, yes, it's always easy to have a pop at the French but how does this end?

    I'm assuming nobody wants a nuclear conflict so eventually there will be some form of negotiated resolution - Zelenskyy knows this but he's hoping with time the military position will improve to his advantage and he can deal from a position of some strength.

    The stronger the Ukraine's military position, the more he can argue for something more than status quo ante bellum - complete Russian withdrawal from the Donbas Region perhaps. Crimea? I don't know - they could always ask the Crimean population whether they want to be in Ukraine, Russia or even wholly Independent.

    Zelenskyy's intelligence chief is highly optimistic and he may be right but if we know what victory for the Ukraine looks like what does defeat for Russia look like? Is it Putin who calls an end to this or Medvedev or a newly-released Navalny? I can't see an obvious way for the existing leadership to extricate themselves from this without a complete loss of face or support and that's the problem. This goes on because it can't not go on (pardon the double negative).

    Macron's attempts to prevent the invasion and broker an early peace failed - that doesn't mean they weren't worth trying. Even now, offering a humbled Putin a way out doesn't seem the worst move if it stops the death and destruction and as a wise man once said jaw-jaw is better than war-war, isn't it?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    "Boris Johnson will scrap a ban on 'buy one get one free' junk food deals and a 9pm watershed for sugary snacks to help poorer families.

    The policies are being pushed back for at least a year in an attempt to soften the blow of soaring living costs but they could be ditched entirely."

    Mail


    This government is all over the place. They spend most of their time undoing what they wanted to introduce a year or two before. A border in the Irish Sea being the obvious main example.

  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    stodge said:

    Early evening all :)

    Fine evening here in downtown Newham.

    Just a reminder the Nordrhein/Westfalen regional election is on Sunday.

    Final poll out today from Forschunggruppe (for ZDF):
    Forschunggruppe (2254 respondents, fieldwork 9/5-12/5): (changes from 2017):

    CDU: 32% (-1)
    SPD: 29% (-2)
    Greens: 17% (+11)
    AfD: 7% (nc)
    FDP: 6% (-7)
    Linke: 3% (-2)

    The FDP dropping out the Landtag would be significant but I suspect they'll survive. The question is whether an SPD/Green government might take over. They clearly have the numbers and after last week's strong CDU performance, a more disappointing effort likely from the Federal Opposition.

    Actually would be a relatively good result for the CDU, confirming recovery since last year's general election.
    SPD-Green would no doubt form the government if they got a majority, which is not at all certain.
    The FDP look like doing badly enough to cost the current CDU FDP coalition their majority. Meaningless slogans ("Freiheit bleibt systemrelevant"?) over arty pictures of young people might have fooled a few people when the FDP were in opposition (at the federal level), but people are seeing through them now they are in national government.
This discussion has been closed.