On food banks. Those most in favour of them are, of course, those who are fortunate enough never to have to use them.
As for those who do use them. Well, they are of course very grateful that they exist. But many people who use them find it deeply humiliating to do so; using them is dehumanising, though not as much as begging.
I'm not persuaded that having world-beating food banks is something that we, as one of the richest countries in the world, should be particularly proud of. Rather, I see it as a badge of shame that poor people have to receive charity while so many of our citizens find that food constitutes a very small proportion of their outgoings. But I guess that's why I'm a leftie.
Is it not people who call food banks a "badge of shame" who do the most to stigmatise those who use them?
I think you need help reading. I never called food banks a badge of shame.
Problem is he's doubling down on his nonsense and obscuring any legitimate points he's trying to make. "Use is exaggerated". I've worked in a food bank. We kept scrupulous records. We know exactly how many people come to visit.The Trussell Trust requires written referrals. He's implying widespread fraud. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Mr. 1983/Mr. Sandpit, occasionally get gypsies around here. Last time they occupied part of a farmer's field adjacent to the primary school and left behind a charming arrangement of litter and human excrement.
Since then, the fencing off has been beefed up to try and stop it recurring.
A farmer I knew did the boulder thing. Interestingly, he got attacked by incomers - who seemed to think that travellers had a right to camp on the paddock (privately owned) he kept his horses on.
Steven Swinford @Steven_Swinford · 4h Sir Howard Davies, chairman of Natwest, says the poorest will need to reduce their discretionary spending by *20%* to cope with soaring inflation and energy prices
He says the Government should focus on increasing benefits rather than across the board tax cuts
This coming recession is going to devastate our hospitality industry.
I was reading a thread on twitter from a guy who runs a chippie who has said his veg oil has gone (for a 20L drum) from £20 to £50 overnight from the wholesalers.
They will have to pass these costs on.
To people who have less and less discretionary spend.
The coming recession is going to be another disastrous Tory recession. They are good at them.
The chippy we use when my sister and I visit Dad on a Friday for lunch has just put a quid on all fish due to Ukraine and inflation. In terms of the crisis Any solution that tackles all the underlying issues will be completely unacceptable to the cosseted and do nothing to lift those at the bottom (at best stick foundation and support under them) The country wants to wish away what's coming, Labour want to Toryblame it away and the Tories want it to just go somewhere else or put on a disguise so nobody notices it. Catastrophe incoming.
Far more worrying than the inevitable recession in the OECD countries, is the very real prospect of Famine in the “Global South”, and what generally comes with that - unrest, strife, war, you name it
Sri Lanka is already wobbling badly. If the Ukraine war grinds on, God help all of us, everywhere
The enormity hasn't quite entered western consciousness yet, it's a shadow on the edge of a restless dream. It stands a chance of reshaping everything. America is probably done and will sink into massive civil unrest and possible split, the fundamental differences there between the young and the radical democrats and the Bible belt and De Santis/Trump republicanism are irreconcilable currently being played out in the Roe vs Wade miasma
“A SHADOW ON THE EDGE OF A RESTLESS DREAM”
That’s excellent. And exactly right. A kind of nameless, formless, distant dread. The world seems like it is returning to normal, and yet - the darkness at the edge of town… the booms of faraway cannon, maybe getting nearer
Auden caught the mood in his quintessential poem of the 1930s. He even mentions the flu in the last two genius stanzas
The Fall of Rome
W H Auden
The piers are pummelled by the waves; In a lonely field the rain Lashes an abandoned train; Outlaws fill the mountain caves.
Fantastic grow the evening gowns; Agents of the Fisc pursue Absconding tax-defaulters through The sewers of provincial towns.
Private rites of magic send The temple prostitutes to sleep; All the literati keep An imaginary friend.
Cerebrotonic Cato may Extol the Ancient Disciplines, But the muscle-bound Marines Mutiny for food and pay.
Caesar's double-bed is warm As an unimportant clerk Writes I DO NOT LIKE MY WORK On a pink official form.
Unendowed with wealth or pity, Little birds with scarlet legs, Sitting on their speckled eggs, Eye each flu-infected city.
Altogether elsewhere, vast Herds of reindeer move across Miles and miles of golden moss, Silently and very fast.
Problem is he's doubling down on his nonsense and obscuring any legitimate points he's trying to make. "Use is exaggerated". I've worked in a food bank. We kept scrupulous records. The Trussell Trust requires referrals. He's implying widespread fraud. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Yes he is playing politics with it all, as are much of the left on the opposite side in response.
The better response from Labour would be along the lines of:
We do not agree with how you have framed it but thanks for raising the importance of better food and personal finance education. What funding is the government willing to allocate to address this nationally?
Mr. 1983/Mr. Sandpit, occasionally get gypsies around here. Last time they occupied part of a farmer's field adjacent to the primary school and left behind a charming arrangement of litter and human excrement.
Since then, the fencing off has been beefed up to try and stop it recurring.
A farmer I knew did the boulder thing. Interestingly, he got attacked by incomers - who seemed to think that travellers had a right to camp on the paddock (privately owned) he kept his horses on.
Did he privately own the land he dumped the boulders on? If so, fine. If not, it's fly-tipping.
On food banks. Those most in favour of them are, of course, those who are fortunate enough never to have to use them.
As for those who do use them. Well, they are of course very grateful that they exist. But many people who use them find it deeply humiliating to do so; using them is dehumanising, though not as much as begging.
I'm not persuaded that having world-beating food banks is something that we, as one of the richest countries in the world, should be particularly proud of. Rather, I see it as a badge of shame that poor people have to receive charity while so many of our citizens find that food constitutes a very small proportion of their outgoings. But I guess that's why I'm a leftie.
You must be livid that they started under Labour. Can you list the european countries from example which do not have food banks? In fact they are supported by the EU.
EU food banks good. UK food banks bad.
To you and Felix - I never mentioned the EU. Food banks are bad wherever they are in the 'rich' world - UK, EU and USA. I didn't make the distinction that is in your imagination. Not everything's to do with fucking Brexit, you know.
No, food banks are good.
People will always fall on hard times, having a safety net to provide support where it is required is a fantastic thing and not a bad thing.
Prior to the rise of food banks, we didn't have utopia, we had loan sharks. The rise in food banks led to a corresponding fall in loan sharks.
Would you rather instead of charity, we go back to people being forced to use Wonga etc to put food on the table? I for one, would not.
On food banks. Those most in favour of them are, of course, those who are fortunate enough never to have to use them.
As for those who do use them. Well, they are of course very grateful that they exist. But many people who use them find it deeply humiliating to do so; using them is dehumanising, though not as much as begging.
I'm not persuaded that having world-beating food banks is something that we, as one of the richest countries in the world, should be particularly proud of. Rather, I see it as a badge of shame that poor people have to receive charity while so many of our citizens find that food constitutes a very small proportion of their outgoings. But I guess that's why I'm a leftie.
You must be livid that they started under Labour. Can you list the european countries from example which do not have food banks? In fact they are supported by the EU.
EU food banks good. UK food banks bad.
To you and Felix - I never mentioned the EU. Food banks are bad wherever they are in the 'rich' world - UK, EU and USA. I didn't make the distinction that is in your imagination. Not everything's to do with fucking Brexit, you know.
Food banks are brilliant, the embodiment of the Big Society at work. Why does so much of the modern left have such a problem with local charities helping out the disadvantaged in society?
(Sorry, but if there was a Labour government, food banks would be seen as brilliant by those who currently denounce them).
On food banks. Those most in favour of them are, of course, those who are fortunate enough never to have to use them.
As for those who do use them. Well, they are of course very grateful that they exist. But many people who use them find it deeply humiliating to do so; using them is dehumanising, though not as much as begging.
I'm not persuaded that having world-beating food banks is something that we, as one of the richest countries in the world, should be particularly proud of. Rather, I see it as a badge of shame that poor people have to receive charity while so many of our citizens find that food constitutes a very small proportion of their outgoings. But I guess that's why I'm a leftie.
Is it not people who call food banks a "badge of shame" who do the most to stigmatise those who use them?
I think you need help reading. I never called food banks a badge of shame.
You said they are "bad wherever they are" and that it's a badge of shame for us collectively that they need to exist. That attitude is hardly conducive to making people feel comfortable about using them.
Mr. 1983/Mr. Sandpit, occasionally get gypsies around here. Last time they occupied part of a farmer's field adjacent to the primary school and left behind a charming arrangement of litter and human excrement.
Since then, the fencing off has been beefed up to try and stop it recurring.
A farmer I knew did the boulder thing. Interestingly, he got attacked by incomers - who seemed to think that travellers had a right to camp on the paddock (privately owned) he kept his horses on.
Did he privately own the land he dumped the boulders on? If so, fine. If not, it's fly-tipping.
Edit. Lee Anderson. Not your farmer.
Yes, he did.
Being a humorous sort, he's had them rough carved into mini stonehenge-like blocks - planted in the ground. You could walk a horse though and that was it.
You keep seeming to look at this from the perspective of the dark kitchen though, rather than from the perspective of Deliveroo. I never claimed the dark kitchen would be profitable, did I?
You claimed that the commission was "a reduction in their profits" which for the dark kitchen is 100% true, but for Deliveroo it isn't, it is their revenue stream. The service charge they then charge the consumer is also a revenue stream for Deliveroo, so they have multiple revenue streams.
Whether their revenue exceeds their costs is a different question, but their service charges are categorically not their only revenue stream.
PS I think anyone setting up a "dark kitchen" its a mug's game. Deliveroo are keen to get people setting them up, because they can then charge money for it but if you're not selling drinks etc to consumers then its going to be very difficult for anyone operating a dark kitchen to turn a profit while paying Deliveroo etc too.
But Deliveroo don't care if the restaurants they 'serve' go bust and are replaced by new investors looking to set up a restaurant. That's another injection of investment cash going on right there, without Deliveroo needing to raise a penny of it, instead they're parasites on that.
You mentioned Dominos originally. Could be a Dominos franchise. Or a chippy. Or Tesco Express - whatever. Those guys make money producing stuff.
Deliveroo are an order processing and delivery company. They make money generating and delivering orders.
The problem is that for the food producer they can't just use Deliveroo. Or Gorillas. Or Ubereats. They need to use all of them. And don't care which. Punters increasingly use umbrella sites like Just Eat rather than Deliveroo as there is more choice.
So the producer makes money producing stuff. The delivery firm makes money via tech and physical; delivery. And that is the problem. They cannot make money unless the tech is established and the volume is enormous. Their commission does not cover their costs and they can't charge more commission because competition lowers the bar - nobody cares who delivers the food.
So yes, Deliveroo do care. They only get volume if the restaurant keeps using them. And there is too much competition. Hence the new idea of Deliveroo operating their own dark kitchen -they can't lose the custom and there is actual profit that can be used to subsidise their losses.
You're wrong in saying the producer makes money producing stuff. The producer should make money producing stuff, but the problem is the producer is having a large slice of their ticket price they should be making on being withheld by Deliveroo etc instead.
And all the hundreds of FoodCo's in your local area feel like they have no choice to be on all platforms, even though the platforms withhold the cash they should be making, because the alternative is they get no cash.
Why do you think 40% commission (as per that real world Chinese example) plus 10% service charge can't be profitable?
Why? Because those figures are wrong. Their total charge is more like 30% including the service charge depending on the area. If someone is being ripped at 50% then they quit and use one of the competitors.
I'm going to park this because you aren't paying any attention. It isn't what I think. It is what their investors know. The investors who see the real figures not your best guess figures.
Please, go buy shares in Deliveroo as you are so convinced they are a winner. They are a bargain at the moment having lost 60% of their value since the start of the year.
I never said Deliveroo are a bargain at the minute, I said they have the potential of being profitable. That is two very different things. There is a world of difference between profitable and to infinite and beyond stock prices.
Do I think Deliveroo can make a profit in the future? Yes.
Do I think they will make a profit that justifies a £1.5 billion market cap? Let alone a nearly £4 billion market cap earlier this year? No, that's a very different question.
The investors who see the figures also think they can make a profit in the future, otherwise the share price would be 0.
The value they have, is in the brand itself. The underlying business is unlikely to ever be profitable.
Why don't you think they can make a profit charging 30-40% commission plus service charges, while only paying a pittance to the people delivering for them who are expected to do many deliveries per hour to get to £9 per hour?
Whether restaurants will make money with Deliveroo etc charging 30%+ commission is another matter.
For some reason Rochdale seems to think the fact that every FoodCo is on every DeliveryCo network now is bad news for the DeliveryCo's, it isn't. The fact that FoodCo feels they have no choice but to be on every network is precisely why they are and means DeliveryCo can charge exorbitant commissions and they get away with it.
The issue is, that the many DeliveryCos have massive marketing costs, as they are competing with each other, and still can’t make close to a profit while they have humans doing the deliveries, despite the commissions they charge to restaurants.
You and I agree on most things, but @RochdalePioneers is right on this one. Unless we can get the robot overlords doing deliveries.
Absolutely marketing etc is a major cost and would remain a major cost even if they replaced all humans with robots.
Considering how shit these companies treat the drivers delivering for them, I'm not convinced robotics would make the businesses any more profitable. Robots would come with their own costs too and marketing would remain an issue. Robot drivers is vapourware to scam investors not the magic cure to make the business profitable.
Oh, there’s no chance whatsoever of robots doing deliveries anytime soon, other than well-supervised and rediculously expensive prototype demonstrations.
Thanks to the ending of FoM, and full employment, it’s becoming more expensive for these companies to exploit cheap labour at the bottom end. The apps are all struggling to recruit drivers, and are paying higher rates which erodes their own margins, which makes them even less likely to be profitable in the medium term.
What happened to that Amazon drone delivery scheme they were piloting in Peterborough?
On food banks. Those most in favour of them are, of course, those who are fortunate enough never to have to use them.
As for those who do use them. Well, they are of course very grateful that they exist. But many people who use them find it deeply humiliating to do so; using them is dehumanising, though not as much as begging.
I'm not persuaded that having world-beating food banks is something that we, as one of the richest countries in the world, should be particularly proud of. Rather, I see it as a badge of shame that poor people have to receive charity while so many of our citizens find that food constitutes a very small proportion of their outgoings. But I guess that's why I'm a leftie.
You must be livid that they started under Labour. Can you list the european countries from example which do not have food banks? In fact they are supported by the EU.
EU food banks good. UK food banks bad.
To you and Felix - I never mentioned the EU. Food banks are bad wherever they are in the 'rich' world - UK, EU and USA. I didn't make the distinction that is in your imagination. Not everything's to do with fucking Brexit, you know.
No, food banks are good.
People will always fall on hard times, having a safety net to provide support where it is required is a fantastic thing and not a bad thing.
Prior to the rise of food banks, we didn't have utopia, we had loan sharks. The rise in food banks led to a corresponding fall in loan sharks.
Would you rather instead of charity, we go back to people being forced to use Wonga etc to put food on the table? I for one, would not.
You've wheeled out this line many times. It's not either/or - there are other remedies, such as raising (low) pay and increasing benefits.
Anyway, I hope you give due credit to Stella Creasy for her magnificent work as the prime mover in clipping the wings of Wonga and others.
Steven Swinford @Steven_Swinford · 4h Sir Howard Davies, chairman of Natwest, says the poorest will need to reduce their discretionary spending by *20%* to cope with soaring inflation and energy prices
He says the Government should focus on increasing benefits rather than across the board tax cuts
This coming recession is going to devastate our hospitality industry.
I was reading a thread on twitter from a guy who runs a chippie who has said his veg oil has gone (for a 20L drum) from £20 to £50 overnight from the wholesalers.
They will have to pass these costs on.
To people who have less and less discretionary spend.
The coming recession is going to be another disastrous Tory recession. They are good at them.
The chippy we use when my sister and I visit Dad on a Friday for lunch has just put a quid on all fish due to Ukraine and inflation. In terms of the crisis Any solution that tackles all the underlying issues will be completely unacceptable to the cosseted and do nothing to lift those at the bottom (at best stick foundation and support under them) The country wants to wish away what's coming, Labour want to Toryblame it away and the Tories want it to just go somewhere else or put on a disguise so nobody notices it. Catastrophe incoming.
Far more worrying than the inevitable recession in the OECD countries, is the very real prospect of Famine in the “Global South”, and what generally comes with that - unrest, strife, war, you name it
Sri Lanka is already wobbling badly. If the Ukraine war grinds on, God help all of us, everywhere
The enormity hasn't quite entered western consciousness yet, it's a shadow on the edge of a restless dream. It stands a chance of reshaping everything. America is probably done and will sink into massive civil unrest and possible split, the fundamental differences there between the young and the radical democrats and the Bible belt and De Santis/Trump republicanism are irreconcilable currently being played out in the Roe vs Wade miasma
“A SHADOW ON THE EDGE OF A RESTLESS DREAM”
That’s excellent. And exactly right. A kind of nameless, formless, distant dread. The world seems like it is returning to normal, and yet - the darkness at the edge of town… the booms of faraway cannon, maybe getting nearer
Auden caught the mood in his quintessential poem of the 1930s. He even mentions the flu in the last two genius stanzas
The Fall of Rome
W H Auden
The piers are pummelled by the waves; In a lonely field the rain Lashes an abandoned train; Outlaws fill the mountain caves.
Fantastic grow the evening gowns; Agents of the Fisc pursue Absconding tax-defaulters through The sewers of provincial towns.
Private rites of magic send The temple prostitutes to sleep; All the literati keep An imaginary friend.
Cerebrotonic Cato may Extol the Ancient Disciplines, But the muscle-bound Marines Mutiny for food and pay.
Caesar's double-bed is warm As an unimportant clerk Writes I DO NOT LIKE MY WORK On a pink official form.
Unendowed with wealth or pity, Little birds with scarlet legs, Sitting on their speckled eggs, Eye each flu-infected city.
Altogether elsewhere, vast Herds of reindeer move across Miles and miles of golden moss, Silently and very fast.
Yes indeedy. Or the excellent description of the everyday goings on as the cylinders land in War of the Worlds. Obviously we do not face an existential crisis but 'normality' most certainly does
On food banks. Those most in favour of them are, of course, those who are fortunate enough never to have to use them.
As for those who do use them. Well, they are of course very grateful that they exist. But many people who use them find it deeply humiliating to do so; using them is dehumanising, though not as much as begging.
I'm not persuaded that having world-beating food banks is something that we, as one of the richest countries in the world, should be particularly proud of. Rather, I see it as a badge of shame that poor people have to receive charity while so many of our citizens find that food constitutes a very small proportion of their outgoings. But I guess that's why I'm a leftie.
You must be livid that they started under Labour. Can you list the european countries from example which do not have food banks? In fact they are supported by the EU.
EU food banks good. UK food banks bad.
To you and Felix - I never mentioned the EU. Food banks are bad wherever they are in the 'rich' world - UK, EU and USA. I didn't make the distinction that is in your imagination. Not everything's to do with fucking Brexit, you know.
Food banks are brilliant, the embodiment of the Big Society at work. Why does so much of the modern left have such a problem with local charities helping out the disadvantaged in society?
(Sorry, but if there was a Labour government, food banks would be seen as brilliant by those who currently denounce them).
Not by me they wouldn't. If food bank usage increased under a Labour government I'd be furious.
On food banks. Those most in favour of them are, of course, those who are fortunate enough never to have to use them.
As for those who do use them. Well, they are of course very grateful that they exist. But many people who use them find it deeply humiliating to do so; using them is dehumanising, though not as much as begging.
I'm not persuaded that having world-beating food banks is something that we, as one of the richest countries in the world, should be particularly proud of. Rather, I see it as a badge of shame that poor people have to receive charity while so many of our citizens find that food constitutes a very small proportion of their outgoings. But I guess that's why I'm a leftie.
You must be livid that they started under Labour. Can you list the european countries from example which do not have food banks? In fact they are supported by the EU.
EU food banks good. UK food banks bad.
To you and Felix - I never mentioned the EU. Food banks are bad wherever they are in the 'rich' world - UK, EU and USA. I didn't make the distinction that is in your imagination. Not everything's to do with fucking Brexit, you know.
Food banks are brilliant, the embodiment of the Big Society at work. Why does so much of the modern left have such a problem with local charities helping out the disadvantaged in society?
(Sorry, but if there was a Labour government, food banks would be seen as brilliant by those who currently denounce them).
Think of the GDP wasted. All those volunteers, all that donated food. Its a low productivity fix for a struggling economic underclass.
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
An Italian colleague was lamenting Londoners calling themselves "foodies" recently, suggesting that in Italy it's just normal life. I think she's right. What we'd call a "foodie" in the UK is simply living normally in lots of European countries (notable exceptions include Germany and the Netherlands which also have the same shit food as the UK).
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
On food banks. Those most in favour of them are, of course, those who are fortunate enough never to have to use them.
As for those who do use them. Well, they are of course very grateful that they exist. But many people who use them find it deeply humiliating to do so; using them is dehumanising, though not as much as begging.
I'm not persuaded that having world-beating food banks is something that we, as one of the richest countries in the world, should be particularly proud of. Rather, I see it as a badge of shame that poor people have to receive charity while so many of our citizens find that food constitutes a very small proportion of their outgoings. But I guess that's why I'm a leftie.
You must be livid that they started under Labour. Can you list the european countries from example which do not have food banks? In fact they are supported by the EU.
EU food banks good. UK food banks bad.
To you and Felix - I never mentioned the EU. Food banks are bad wherever they are in the 'rich' world - UK, EU and USA. I didn't make the distinction that is in your imagination. Not everything's to do with fucking Brexit, you know.
Food banks are brilliant, the embodiment of the Big Society at work. Why does so much of the modern left have such a problem with local charities helping out the disadvantaged in society?
(Sorry, but if there was a Labour government, food banks would be seen as brilliant by those who currently denounce them).
Not by me they wouldn't. If food bank usage increased under a Labour government I'd be furious.
Because they would be competing with the Labour party as a source of handouts?
On food banks. Those most in favour of them are, of course, those who are fortunate enough never to have to use them.
As for those who do use them. Well, they are of course very grateful that they exist. But many people who use them find it deeply humiliating to do so; using them is dehumanising, though not as much as begging.
I'm not persuaded that having world-beating food banks is something that we, as one of the richest countries in the world, should be particularly proud of. Rather, I see it as a badge of shame that poor people have to receive charity while so many of our citizens find that food constitutes a very small proportion of their outgoings. But I guess that's why I'm a leftie.
You must be livid that they started under Labour. Can you list the european countries from example which do not have food banks? In fact they are supported by the EU.
EU food banks good. UK food banks bad.
To you and Felix - I never mentioned the EU. Food banks are bad wherever they are in the 'rich' world - UK, EU and USA. I didn't make the distinction that is in your imagination. Not everything's to do with fucking Brexit, you know.
No, food banks are good.
People will always fall on hard times, having a safety net to provide support where it is required is a fantastic thing and not a bad thing.
Prior to the rise of food banks, we didn't have utopia, we had loan sharks. The rise in food banks led to a corresponding fall in loan sharks.
Would you rather instead of charity, we go back to people being forced to use Wonga etc to put food on the table? I for one, would not.
You've wheeled out this line many times. It's not either/or - there are other remedies, such as raising (low) pay and increasing benefits.
Anyway, I hope you give due credit to Stella Creasy for her magnificent work as the prime mover in clipping the wings of Wonga and others.
No, it is either/or.
Even with raising low pay and increasing benefits there always have been and always will be people falling on hard times.
It doesn't matter how much some people earn or get on benefits, there are always some people who live from pay cheque to pay cheque and then when a 'rainy day' happens they're in crisis.
If someone is fine from month to month but then has a particularly bad month - their car breaks down, needs expensive repairs etc - would you rather they be forced to go to a loan shark, or there is a charity available that can say "we can help you"?
I for one would always celebrate the latter and it is something to be proud of that charity is there and should never be considered "bad wherever they are".
On food banks. Those most in favour of them are, of course, those who are fortunate enough never to have to use them.
As for those who do use them. Well, they are of course very grateful that they exist. But many people who use them find it deeply humiliating to do so; using them is dehumanising, though not as much as begging.
I'm not persuaded that having world-beating food banks is something that we, as one of the richest countries in the world, should be particularly proud of. Rather, I see it as a badge of shame that poor people have to receive charity while so many of our citizens find that food constitutes a very small proportion of their outgoings. But I guess that's why I'm a leftie.
You must be livid that they started under Labour. Can you list the european countries from example which do not have food banks? In fact they are supported by the EU.
EU food banks good. UK food banks bad.
To you and Felix - I never mentioned the EU. Food banks are bad wherever they are in the 'rich' world - UK, EU and USA. I didn't make the distinction that is in your imagination. Not everything's to do with fucking Brexit, you know.
Food banks are brilliant, the embodiment of the Big Society at work. Why does so much of the modern left have such a problem with local charities helping out the disadvantaged in society?
(Sorry, but if there was a Labour government, food banks would be seen as brilliant by those who currently denounce them).
If there were a Labour government, the DWP would probably still be banned from referring benefit claimants to food banks.
Problem is he's doubling down on his nonsense and obscuring any legitimate points he's trying to make. "Use is exaggerated". I've worked in a food bank. We kept scrupulous records. The Trussell Trust requires referrals. He's implying widespread fraud. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Yes he is playing politics with it all, as are much of the left on the opposite side in response.
The better response from Labour would be along the lines of:
We do not agree with how you have framed it but thanks for raising the importance of better food and personal finance education. What funding is the government willing to allocate to address this nationally?
Nah, it's easier for them to say "look evul torys, vote for us" despite this same tactic failing in 2015.
The reason this has had such a furious reaction from the left is because there is a recognisable grain of truth in what he's saying. Lots of people in food poverty spend far, far too much money on fast food. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to McDonald's this year or any other fast food place. Go to any council estate and take a look at their spending, I can guarantee the average will be far higher than it is in a leafy suburb.
On food banks. Those most in favour of them are, of course, those who are fortunate enough never to have to use them.
As for those who do use them. Well, they are of course very grateful that they exist. But many people who use them find it deeply humiliating to do so; using them is dehumanising, though not as much as begging.
I'm not persuaded that having world-beating food banks is something that we, as one of the richest countries in the world, should be particularly proud of. Rather, I see it as a badge of shame that poor people have to receive charity while so many of our citizens find that food constitutes a very small proportion of their outgoings. But I guess that's why I'm a leftie.
You must be livid that they started under Labour. Can you list the european countries from example which do not have food banks? In fact they are supported by the EU.
EU food banks good. UK food banks bad.
To you and Felix - I never mentioned the EU. Food banks are bad wherever they are in the 'rich' world - UK, EU and USA. I didn't make the distinction that is in your imagination. Not everything's to do with fucking Brexit, you know.
Food banks are brilliant, the embodiment of the Big Society at work. Why does so much of the modern left have such a problem with local charities helping out the disadvantaged in society?
(Sorry, but if there was a Labour government, food banks would be seen as brilliant by those who currently denounce them).
Not by me they wouldn't. If food bank usage increased under a Labour government I'd be furious.
Because they would be competing with the Labour party as a source of handouts?
Pathetic. No, because it would be evidence that Labour hadn't done enough to reduce the gross inequalities of income and life chances that prevail in this country.
Steven Swinford @Steven_Swinford · 4h Sir Howard Davies, chairman of Natwest, says the poorest will need to reduce their discretionary spending by *20%* to cope with soaring inflation and energy prices
He says the Government should focus on increasing benefits rather than across the board tax cuts
This coming recession is going to devastate our hospitality industry.
I was reading a thread on twitter from a guy who runs a chippie who has said his veg oil has gone (for a 20L drum) from £20 to £50 overnight from the wholesalers.
They will have to pass these costs on.
To people who have less and less discretionary spend.
The coming recession is going to be another disastrous Tory recession. They are good at them.
The chippy we use when my sister and I visit Dad on a Friday for lunch has just put a quid on all fish due to Ukraine and inflation. In terms of the crisis Any solution that tackles all the underlying issues will be completely unacceptable to the cosseted and do nothing to lift those at the bottom (at best stick foundation and support under them) The country wants to wish away what's coming, Labour want to Toryblame it away and the Tories want it to just go somewhere else or put on a disguise so nobody notices it. Catastrophe incoming.
Far more worrying than the inevitable recession in the OECD countries, is the very real prospect of Famine in the “Global South”, and what generally comes with that - unrest, strife, war, you name it
Sri Lanka is already wobbling badly. If the Ukraine war grinds on, God help all of us, everywhere
The enormity hasn't quite entered western consciousness yet, it's a shadow on the edge of a restless dream. It stands a chance of reshaping everything. America is probably done and will sink into massive civil unrest and possible split, the fundamental differences there between the young and the radical democrats and the Bible belt and De Santis/Trump republicanism are irreconcilable currently being played out in the Roe vs Wade miasma
“A SHADOW ON THE EDGE OF A RESTLESS DREAM”
That’s excellent. And exactly right. A kind of nameless, formless, distant dread. The world seems like it is returning to normal, and yet - the darkness at the edge of town… the booms of faraway cannon, maybe getting nearer
Auden caught the mood in his quintessential poem of the 1930s. He even mentions the flu in the last two genius stanzas
The Fall of Rome
W H Auden
The piers are pummelled by the waves; In a lonely field the rain Lashes an abandoned train; Outlaws fill the mountain caves.
Fantastic grow the evening gowns; Agents of the Fisc pursue Absconding tax-defaulters through The sewers of provincial towns.
Private rites of magic send The temple prostitutes to sleep; All the literati keep An imaginary friend.
Cerebrotonic Cato may Extol the Ancient Disciplines, But the muscle-bound Marines Mutiny for food and pay.
Caesar's double-bed is warm As an unimportant clerk Writes I DO NOT LIKE MY WORK On a pink official form.
Unendowed with wealth or pity, Little birds with scarlet legs, Sitting on their speckled eggs, Eye each flu-infected city.
Altogether elsewhere, vast Herds of reindeer move across Miles and miles of golden moss, Silently and very fast.
Yes indeedy. Or the excellent description of the everyday goings on as the cylinders land in War of the Worlds. Obviously we do not face an existential crisis but 'normality' most certainly does
Well, we’re closer to nuclear war than we’ve been since…. Ever?
That is literally existential. It could destroy human civilisation as we know it
This sense of The End of Rome is one reason I am getting a lot of traveling done now. Just in case the world takes an even darker turn. I’m not convinced it will, not like I was in Early Covid, but i do note the shadow at the edge of the restless dream. And so: just in case
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
Your comment supplied an additional layer of enjoyment to my (nitrite-free) bacon (San Francisco sourdough) sandwich.
On food banks. Those most in favour of them are, of course, those who are fortunate enough never to have to use them.
As for those who do use them. Well, they are of course very grateful that they exist. But many people who use them find it deeply humiliating to do so; using them is dehumanising, though not as much as begging.
I'm not persuaded that having world-beating food banks is something that we, as one of the richest countries in the world, should be particularly proud of. Rather, I see it as a badge of shame that poor people have to receive charity while so many of our citizens find that food constitutes a very small proportion of their outgoings. But I guess that's why I'm a leftie.
You must be livid that they started under Labour. Can you list the european countries from example which do not have food banks? In fact they are supported by the EU.
EU food banks good. UK food banks bad.
To you and Felix - I never mentioned the EU. Food banks are bad wherever they are in the 'rich' world - UK, EU and USA. I didn't make the distinction that is in your imagination. Not everything's to do with fucking Brexit, you know.
Food banks are brilliant, the embodiment of the Big Society at work. Why does so much of the modern left have such a problem with local charities helping out the disadvantaged in society?
(Sorry, but if there was a Labour government, food banks would be seen as brilliant by those who currently denounce them).
Not by me they wouldn't. If food bank usage increased under a Labour government I'd be furious.
Because they would be competing with the Labour party as a source of handouts?
Pathetic. No, because it would be evidence that Labour hadn't done enough to reduce the gross inequalities of income and life chances that prevail in this country.
No, its not.
Providing a safety net to support people is doing something to reduce the gross inequalities of chances. That's what Labour are supposed to believe in.
The fact that a safety net of charity replaced the predatory loan sharks is something that should be supported, not sneered at.
You keep seeming to look at this from the perspective of the dark kitchen though, rather than from the perspective of Deliveroo. I never claimed the dark kitchen would be profitable, did I?
You claimed that the commission was "a reduction in their profits" which for the dark kitchen is 100% true, but for Deliveroo it isn't, it is their revenue stream. The service charge they then charge the consumer is also a revenue stream for Deliveroo, so they have multiple revenue streams.
Whether their revenue exceeds their costs is a different question, but their service charges are categorically not their only revenue stream.
PS I think anyone setting up a "dark kitchen" its a mug's game. Deliveroo are keen to get people setting them up, because they can then charge money for it but if you're not selling drinks etc to consumers then its going to be very difficult for anyone operating a dark kitchen to turn a profit while paying Deliveroo etc too.
But Deliveroo don't care if the restaurants they 'serve' go bust and are replaced by new investors looking to set up a restaurant. That's another injection of investment cash going on right there, without Deliveroo needing to raise a penny of it, instead they're parasites on that.
You mentioned Dominos originally. Could be a Dominos franchise. Or a chippy. Or Tesco Express - whatever. Those guys make money producing stuff.
Deliveroo are an order processing and delivery company. They make money generating and delivering orders.
The problem is that for the food producer they can't just use Deliveroo. Or Gorillas. Or Ubereats. They need to use all of them. And don't care which. Punters increasingly use umbrella sites like Just Eat rather than Deliveroo as there is more choice.
So the producer makes money producing stuff. The delivery firm makes money via tech and physical; delivery. And that is the problem. They cannot make money unless the tech is established and the volume is enormous. Their commission does not cover their costs and they can't charge more commission because competition lowers the bar - nobody cares who delivers the food.
So yes, Deliveroo do care. They only get volume if the restaurant keeps using them. And there is too much competition. Hence the new idea of Deliveroo operating their own dark kitchen -they can't lose the custom and there is actual profit that can be used to subsidise their losses.
You're wrong in saying the producer makes money producing stuff. The producer should make money producing stuff, but the problem is the producer is having a large slice of their ticket price they should be making on being withheld by Deliveroo etc instead.
And all the hundreds of FoodCo's in your local area feel like they have no choice to be on all platforms, even though the platforms withhold the cash they should be making, because the alternative is they get no cash.
Why do you think 40% commission (as per that real world Chinese example) plus 10% service charge can't be profitable?
Why? Because those figures are wrong. Their total charge is more like 30% including the service charge depending on the area. If someone is being ripped at 50% then they quit and use one of the competitors.
I'm going to park this because you aren't paying any attention. It isn't what I think. It is what their investors know. The investors who see the real figures not your best guess figures.
Please, go buy shares in Deliveroo as you are so convinced they are a winner. They are a bargain at the moment having lost 60% of their value since the start of the year.
I never said Deliveroo are a bargain at the minute, I said they have the potential of being profitable. That is two very different things. There is a world of difference between profitable and to infinite and beyond stock prices.
Do I think Deliveroo can make a profit in the future? Yes.
Do I think they will make a profit that justifies a £1.5 billion market cap? Let alone a nearly £4 billion market cap earlier this year? No, that's a very different question.
The investors who see the figures also think they can make a profit in the future, otherwise the share price would be 0.
The value they have, is in the brand itself. The underlying business is unlikely to ever be profitable.
Why don't you think they can make a profit charging 30-40% commission plus service charges, while only paying a pittance to the people delivering for them who are expected to do many deliveries per hour to get to £9 per hour?
Whether restaurants will make money with Deliveroo etc charging 30%+ commission is another matter.
For some reason Rochdale seems to think the fact that every FoodCo is on every DeliveryCo network now is bad news for the DeliveryCo's, it isn't. The fact that FoodCo feels they have no choice but to be on every network is precisely why they are and means DeliveryCo can charge exorbitant commissions and they get away with it.
The issue is, that the many DeliveryCos have massive marketing costs, as they are competing with each other, and still can’t make close to a profit while they have humans doing the deliveries, despite the commissions they charge to restaurants.
You and I agree on most things, but @RochdalePioneers is right on this one. Unless we can get the robot overlords doing deliveries.
Absolutely marketing etc is a major cost and would remain a major cost even if they replaced all humans with robots.
Considering how shit these companies treat the drivers delivering for them, I'm not convinced robotics would make the businesses any more profitable. Robots would come with their own costs too and marketing would remain an issue. Robot drivers is vapourware to scam investors not the magic cure to make the business profitable.
Oh, there’s no chance whatsoever of robots doing deliveries anytime soon, other than well-supervised and rediculously expensive prototype demonstrations.
Thanks to the ending of FoM, and full employment, it’s becoming more expensive for these companies to exploit cheap labour at the bottom end. The apps are all struggling to recruit drivers, and are paying higher rates which erodes their own margins, which makes them even less likely to be profitable in the medium term.
What happened to that Amazon drone delivery scheme they were piloting in Peterborough?
Amazon failed to understand that what might be able to work as an expensive prototype, can be impossible to work in the real world of cost of sale.
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
An Italian colleague was lamenting Londoners calling themselves "foodies" recently, suggesting that in Italy it's just normal life. I think she's right. What we'd call a "foodie" in the UK is simply living normally in lots of European countries (notable exceptions include Germany and the Netherlands which also have the same shit food as the UK).
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
Italian food is just pasta and pizza. French food is butter, wine and garlic in everything. It is too easy to stereotype other nations' food cultures.
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
An Italian colleague was lamenting Londoners calling themselves "foodies" recently, suggesting that in Italy it's just normal life. I think she's right. What we'd call a "foodie" in the UK is simply living normally in lots of European countries (notable exceptions include Germany and the Netherlands which also have the same shit food as the UK).
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
Italian food is just pasta and pizza. French food is butter, wine and garlic in everything. It is too easy to stereotype other nations' food cultures.
Steven Swinford @Steven_Swinford · 4h Sir Howard Davies, chairman of Natwest, says the poorest will need to reduce their discretionary spending by *20%* to cope with soaring inflation and energy prices
He says the Government should focus on increasing benefits rather than across the board tax cuts
This coming recession is going to devastate our hospitality industry.
I was reading a thread on twitter from a guy who runs a chippie who has said his veg oil has gone (for a 20L drum) from £20 to £50 overnight from the wholesalers.
They will have to pass these costs on.
To people who have less and less discretionary spend.
The coming recession is going to be another disastrous Tory recession. They are good at them.
The chippy we use when my sister and I visit Dad on a Friday for lunch has just put a quid on all fish due to Ukraine and inflation. In terms of the crisis Any solution that tackles all the underlying issues will be completely unacceptable to the cosseted and do nothing to lift those at the bottom (at best stick foundation and support under them) The country wants to wish away what's coming, Labour want to Toryblame it away and the Tories want it to just go somewhere else or put on a disguise so nobody notices it. Catastrophe incoming.
Far more worrying than the inevitable recession in the OECD countries, is the very real prospect of Famine in the “Global South”, and what generally comes with that - unrest, strife, war, you name it
Sri Lanka is already wobbling badly. If the Ukraine war grinds on, God help all of us, everywhere
The enormity hasn't quite entered western consciousness yet, it's a shadow on the edge of a restless dream. It stands a chance of reshaping everything. America is probably done and will sink into massive civil unrest and possible split, the fundamental differences there between the young and the radical democrats and the Bible belt and De Santis/Trump republicanism are irreconcilable currently being played out in the Roe vs Wade miasma
“A SHADOW ON THE EDGE OF A RESTLESS DREAM”
That’s excellent. And exactly right. A kind of nameless, formless, distant dread. The world seems like it is returning to normal, and yet - the darkness at the edge of town… the booms of faraway cannon, maybe getting nearer
Auden caught the mood in his quintessential poem of the 1930s. He even mentions the flu in the last two genius stanzas
The Fall of Rome
W H Auden
The piers are pummelled by the waves; In a lonely field the rain Lashes an abandoned train; Outlaws fill the mountain caves.
Fantastic grow the evening gowns; Agents of the Fisc pursue Absconding tax-defaulters through The sewers of provincial towns.
Private rites of magic send The temple prostitutes to sleep; All the literati keep An imaginary friend.
Cerebrotonic Cato may Extol the Ancient Disciplines, But the muscle-bound Marines Mutiny for food and pay.
Caesar's double-bed is warm As an unimportant clerk Writes I DO NOT LIKE MY WORK On a pink official form.
Unendowed with wealth or pity, Little birds with scarlet legs, Sitting on their speckled eggs, Eye each flu-infected city.
Altogether elsewhere, vast Herds of reindeer move across Miles and miles of golden moss, Silently and very fast.
Yes indeedy. Or the excellent description of the everyday goings on as the cylinders land in War of the Worlds. Obviously we do not face an existential crisis but 'normality' most certainly does
Well, we’re closer to nuclear war than we’ve been since…. Ever?
That is literally existential. It could destroy human civilisation as we know it
This sense of The End of Rome is one reason I am getting a lot of traveling done now. Just in case the world takes an even darker turn. I’m not convinced it will, not like I was in Early Covid, but i do note the shadow at the edge of the restless dream. And so: just in case
I'm unconvinced nukes loom larger than '50 to '90 but yeah nearer than 90 to 2020! Although I think the bulk of the Russian arsenal is probably useless anyway due to lack of maintenance and tritium theft etc They'd still have enough to make it messy of course
Problem is he's doubling down on his nonsense and obscuring any legitimate points he's trying to make. "Use is exaggerated". I've worked in a food bank. We kept scrupulous records. The Trussell Trust requires referrals. He's implying widespread fraud. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Yes he is playing politics with it all, as are much of the left on the opposite side in response.
The better response from Labour would be along the lines of:
We do not agree with how you have framed it but thanks for raising the importance of better food and personal finance education. What funding is the government willing to allocate to address this nationally?
Nah, it's easier for them to say "look evul torys, vote for us" despite this same tactic failing in 2015.
The reason this has had such a furious reaction from the left is because there is a recognisable grain of truth in what he's saying. Lots of people in food poverty spend far, far too much money on fast food. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to McDonald's this year or any other fast food place. Go to any council estate and take a look at their spending, I can guarantee the average will be far higher than it is in a leafy suburb.
Wait til your offspring arrives. You will find McDonalds an amazingly useful place to feed and quieten the kid/s, I guarantee
And this is an important point. A hard pressed single mum hasn’t got time or energy to whip up home made pasta with arrabiata sauce and a green salad, her kids probably wouldn’t eat it anyway. So, Maccie D’s it is. Again. I can empathise
Lee Anderson is just saying what a lot of people think, probably a majority, albeit a silent one. It is good to have people like him because his views are not abhorrent, there is some truth in what he is saying. The underlying problem, is that foodbanks are providing the type of welfare that the state should be providing. They are a symptom of state failure. The correct role of this type of welfare plus, like foodbanks, should be helping people the state cannot help due to their own lifestyle choices and poor decision making. I would challenge him on the 30p meal idea, because one of the major problems is that cheap food is actually disappearing from the supermarket, ie the 7p tins of beans, the 19p pasta, 30 p orange juice etc. The cost of living crisis is such that, even if you are earning ok, you can't necessarily afford food, largely because of housing and energy costs. I would say, that the change that needs to take place, is that the government need to have as an objective providing a basic income to cover very basic housing, food, heating. There can be a debate as to what this should amount to, but the reality is that for many people the 'free market' doesn't work.
You almost lost me at 'silent majority'
But, having read on, there's a lot to agree with in this.
To me the key question here is why are the poor, poor? The answer that the left are more likely to give is that it is because of inequality (it's society's fault). The answer you will hear more on the right is that it is because the poor make bad life choices. The truth will vary from case to case and is probably a bit of both.
if you believe the left's answer then the solution to helping the poor is to increase benefits and look at measures to reduce inequality. If you believe the right's answer then the solution is to help the poor make better life choices, which is in part where Anderson is coming from.
if you look at international aid campaigns then you often hear something like this "give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime". The problem is our benefits system just gives people the fish.
On food banks. Those most in favour of them are, of course, those who are fortunate enough never to have to use them.
As for those who do use them. Well, they are of course very grateful that they exist. But many people who use them find it deeply humiliating to do so; using them is dehumanising, though not as much as begging.
I'm not persuaded that having world-beating food banks is something that we, as one of the richest countries in the world, should be particularly proud of. Rather, I see it as a badge of shame that poor people have to receive charity while so many of our citizens find that food constitutes a very small proportion of their outgoings. But I guess that's why I'm a leftie.
You must be livid that they started under Labour. Can you list the european countries from example which do not have food banks? In fact they are supported by the EU.
EU food banks good. UK food banks bad.
To you and Felix - I never mentioned the EU. Food banks are bad wherever they are in the 'rich' world - UK, EU and USA. I didn't make the distinction that is in your imagination. Not everything's to do with fucking Brexit, you know.
Food banks are brilliant, the embodiment of the Big Society at work. Why does so much of the modern left have such a problem with local charities helping out the disadvantaged in society?
(Sorry, but if there was a Labour government, food banks would be seen as brilliant by those who currently denounce them).
Not by me they wouldn't. If food bank usage increased under a Labour government I'd be furious.
Because they would be competing with the Labour party as a source of handouts?
Pathetic. No, because it would be evidence that Labour hadn't done enough to reduce the gross inequalities of income and life chances that prevail in this country.
No, its not.
Providing a safety net to support people is doing something to reduce the gross inequalities of chances. That's what Labour are supposed to believe in.
The fact that a safety net of charity replaced the predatory loan sharks is something that should be supported, not sneered at.
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
An Italian colleague was lamenting Londoners calling themselves "foodies" recently, suggesting that in Italy it's just normal life. I think she's right. What we'd call a "foodie" in the UK is simply living normally in lots of European countries (notable exceptions include Germany and the Netherlands which also have the same shit food as the UK).
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
Quite simply, calories are cheaper now than at any time in human history. In living memory, we have stories of food (quite ordinary food) as a treat or luxury.
There's plenty of food culture in the UK. It has been deprecated by cheap-is-better.
The obesity epidemic is an artefact of this - our culture and society is not well adapted for a situation where too many calories is the problem.
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
An Italian colleague was lamenting Londoners calling themselves "foodies" recently, suggesting that in Italy it's just normal life. I think she's right. What we'd call a "foodie" in the UK is simply living normally in lots of European countries (notable exceptions include Germany and the Netherlands which also have the same shit food as the UK).
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
That's a brave albeit weak defence though.
We've been growing great tomatoes in England for decades, and tomatoes are the staple of all mediterranean cuisine. Yet I still – even now –meet otherwise normal English adults who say "I don't like tomatoes".
My answer is always the same: "yes you do." I slice up some good ripe tomatoes at room temperature, soak them in good XV olive oil and rock salt, then serve them with buffalo mozzarella and fresh basil.
Looking forward to the fluffers of the right demanding that this be put into context as they will inevitably do. There will always be a place for Mr Anderson in Douglas Ross's SCons if he feels he has to move on again.
That Ash Sarkar tweet exemplifies how out of touch the metropolitan luvviedom is with the Red Wall.
"Good on him" would be a common response.
Not that many traveller encampments in Islington, I suspect.
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
An Italian colleague was lamenting Londoners calling themselves "foodies" recently, suggesting that in Italy it's just normal life. I think she's right. What we'd call a "foodie" in the UK is simply living normally in lots of European countries (notable exceptions include Germany and the Netherlands which also have the same shit food as the UK).
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
We have amazing produce in the UK, eg possibly the best seafood in the world, so that doesn’t explain it. We can’t grow oranges but English strawberries are superb etc etc
I’ve always understood it as the fault of the Industrial Revolution which disconnected people from rural life and the source of all their food, and of course that happened first in the UK, and in a bigger way in the UK than almost anywhere else
And British food is vastly better now (and much better than Germany or the Netherlands). TV cooking shows are a major reason for this. Maybe THE reason
Problem is he's doubling down on his nonsense and obscuring any legitimate points he's trying to make. "Use is exaggerated". I've worked in a food bank. We kept scrupulous records. The Trussell Trust requires referrals. He's implying widespread fraud. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Yes he is playing politics with it all, as are much of the left on the opposite side in response.
The better response from Labour would be along the lines of:
We do not agree with how you have framed it but thanks for raising the importance of better food and personal finance education. What funding is the government willing to allocate to address this nationally?
Nah, it's easier for them to say "look evul torys, vote for us" despite this same tactic failing in 2015.
The reason this has had such a furious reaction from the left is because there is a recognisable grain of truth in what he's saying. Lots of people in food poverty spend far, far too much money on fast food. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to McDonald's this year or any other fast food place. Go to any council estate and take a look at their spending, I can guarantee the average will be far higher than it is in a leafy suburb.
Wait til your offspring arrives. You will find McDonalds an amazingly useful place to feed and quieten the kid/s, I guarantee
And this is an important point. A hard pressed single mum hasn’t got time or energy to whip up home made pasta with arrabiata sauce and a green salad, her kids probably wouldn’t eat it anyway. So, Maccie D’s it is. Again. I can empathise
True. To a certain extent. It comes down to the quality, skill and inventiveness of the mum's cooking. And what Mum herself eats. If it's good and varied from a very early age, kids will eat it. But most can't cook. We're back to education again. It's inter-generational.
38 per cent Firsts, up from a mere 16 per cent under Labour.
What do people expect when you pay so much for degrees. If you've spent (or more accurately, will spend) on your degree then you don't expect to come out with a 3rd. There must be a lot of pressure to give good degrees as a result. When people weren't paying themselves to go to University there wasn't an expectation that you would get given a good grade but it would depend on the level of achievement. One of the reasons I am in favour of fewer people going to University. Although, I think there should be far more vocational options to go alongside it!
On food banks. Those most in favour of them are, of course, those who are fortunate enough never to have to use them.
As for those who do use them. Well, they are of course very grateful that they exist. But many people who use them find it deeply humiliating to do so; using them is dehumanising, though not as much as begging.
I'm not persuaded that having world-beating food banks is something that we, as one of the richest countries in the world, should be particularly proud of. Rather, I see it as a badge of shame that poor people have to receive charity while so many of our citizens find that food constitutes a very small proportion of their outgoings. But I guess that's why I'm a leftie.
You must be livid that they started under Labour. Can you list the european countries from example which do not have food banks? In fact they are supported by the EU.
EU food banks good. UK food banks bad.
To you and Felix - I never mentioned the EU. Food banks are bad wherever they are in the 'rich' world - UK, EU and USA. I didn't make the distinction that is in your imagination. Not everything's to do with fucking Brexit, you know.
Food banks are brilliant, the embodiment of the Big Society at work. Why does so much of the modern left have such a problem with local charities helping out the disadvantaged in society?
(Sorry, but if there was a Labour government, food banks would be seen as brilliant by those who currently denounce them).
Not by me they wouldn't. If food bank usage increased under a Labour government I'd be furious.
Because they would be competing with the Labour party as a source of handouts?
Pathetic. No, because it would be evidence that Labour hadn't done enough to reduce the gross inequalities of income and life chances that prevail in this country.
No, its not.
Providing a safety net to support people is doing something to reduce the gross inequalities of chances. That's what Labour are supposed to believe in.
The fact that a safety net of charity replaced the predatory loan sharks is something that should be supported, not sneered at.
2014 is the year that is typically quoted as the year food bank use exploded, which is claimed to be a failure rather than a success and why it was made an issue in the 2015 election.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/54ebb03bed915d0cf7000014/Payday_investigation_Final_report.pdf In 2014 the market contracted, and both payday lending revenue and the volume of new loans issued fell year on year by around 27% for the period January to September 2014. Four of the 11 major lenders identified at the start of our investigation, as well as some smaller ones, decided to stop issuing payday loans during 2014.
A 27% fall in volume of new loans issued and a 54% fall in problems reported to Citizens Advice is proof that the loanshark industry took a major blow in the same year as the usage of food banks exploded.
Prior to then, people didn't have access to foodbanks so they were forced to turn to loan sharks. This is something to be celebrated that they exist now and that people are turning to food banks instead of loan sharks is unambiguously, unequivocally, positively a great thing.
I can't wrap my head around how anyone could sneer or consider a safety net to be a bad thing?
Steven Swinford @Steven_Swinford · 4h Sir Howard Davies, chairman of Natwest, says the poorest will need to reduce their discretionary spending by *20%* to cope with soaring inflation and energy prices
He says the Government should focus on increasing benefits rather than across the board tax cuts
This coming recession is going to devastate our hospitality industry.
I was reading a thread on twitter from a guy who runs a chippie who has said his veg oil has gone (for a 20L drum) from £20 to £50 overnight from the wholesalers.
They will have to pass these costs on.
To people who have less and less discretionary spend.
The coming recession is going to be another disastrous Tory recession. They are good at them.
The chippy we use when my sister and I visit Dad on a Friday for lunch has just put a quid on all fish due to Ukraine and inflation. In terms of the crisis Any solution that tackles all the underlying issues will be completely unacceptable to the cosseted and do nothing to lift those at the bottom (at best stick foundation and support under them) The country wants to wish away what's coming, Labour want to Toryblame it away and the Tories want it to just go somewhere else or put on a disguise so nobody notices it. Catastrophe incoming.
Far more worrying than the inevitable recession in the OECD countries, is the very real prospect of Famine in the “Global South”, and what generally comes with that - unrest, strife, war, you name it
Sri Lanka is already wobbling badly. If the Ukraine war grinds on, God help all of us, everywhere
The enormity hasn't quite entered western consciousness yet, it's a shadow on the edge of a restless dream. It stands a chance of reshaping everything. America is probably done and will sink into massive civil unrest and possible split, the fundamental differences there between the young and the radical democrats and the Bible belt and De Santis/Trump republicanism are irreconcilable currently being played out in the Roe vs Wade miasma
“A SHADOW ON THE EDGE OF A RESTLESS DREAM”
That’s excellent. And exactly right. A kind of nameless, formless, distant dread. The world seems like it is returning to normal, and yet - the darkness at the edge of town… the booms of faraway cannon, maybe getting nearer
Auden caught the mood in his quintessential poem of the 1930s. He even mentions the flu in the last two genius stanzas
The Fall of Rome
W H Auden
The piers are pummelled by the waves; In a lonely field the rain Lashes an abandoned train; Outlaws fill the mountain caves.
Fantastic grow the evening gowns; Agents of the Fisc pursue Absconding tax-defaulters through The sewers of provincial towns.
Private rites of magic send The temple prostitutes to sleep; All the literati keep An imaginary friend.
Cerebrotonic Cato may Extol the Ancient Disciplines, But the muscle-bound Marines Mutiny for food and pay.
Caesar's double-bed is warm As an unimportant clerk Writes I DO NOT LIKE MY WORK On a pink official form.
Unendowed with wealth or pity, Little birds with scarlet legs, Sitting on their speckled eggs, Eye each flu-infected city.
Altogether elsewhere, vast Herds of reindeer move across Miles and miles of golden moss, Silently and very fast.
Yes indeedy. Or the excellent description of the everyday goings on as the cylinders land in War of the Worlds. Obviously we do not face an existential crisis but 'normality' most certainly does
Well, we’re closer to nuclear war than we’ve been since…. Ever?
That is literally existential. It could destroy human civilisation as we know it
This sense of The End of Rome is one reason I am getting a lot of traveling done now. Just in case the world takes an even darker turn. I’m not convinced it will, not like I was in Early Covid, but i do note the shadow at the edge of the restless dream. And so: just in case
I'm unconvinced nukes loom larger than '50 to '90 but yeah nearer than 90 to 2020! Although I think the bulk of the Russian arsenal is probably useless anyway due to lack of maintenance and tritium theft etc They'd still have enough to make it messy of course
I don’t think we’ve ever had a nuclear superpower openly and repeatedly threatening to USE nukes as Putin’s Russia is doing. Of course the threat was always there in the 50s-90s, as you say, but it was implicit, not explicit as now
And Putin is old, and sickly, and unstable, and the world is in a right old state, coming out of a plague. And he has just launched a calamitous war
Problem is he's doubling down on his nonsense and obscuring any legitimate points he's trying to make. "Use is exaggerated". I've worked in a food bank. We kept scrupulous records. The Trussell Trust requires referrals. He's implying widespread fraud. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Yes he is playing politics with it all, as are much of the left on the opposite side in response.
The better response from Labour would be along the lines of:
We do not agree with how you have framed it but thanks for raising the importance of better food and personal finance education. What funding is the government willing to allocate to address this nationally?
Nah, it's easier for them to say "look evul torys, vote for us" despite this same tactic failing in 2015.
The reason this has had such a furious reaction from the left is because there is a recognisable grain of truth in what he's saying. Lots of people in food poverty spend far, far too much money on fast food. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to McDonald's this year or any other fast food place. Go to any council estate and take a look at their spending, I can guarantee the average will be far higher than it is in a leafy suburb.
Wait til your offspring arrives. You will find McDonalds an amazingly useful place to feed and quieten the kid/s, I guarantee
And this is an important point. A hard pressed single mum hasn’t got time or energy to whip up home made pasta with arrabiata sauce and a green salad, her kids probably wouldn’t eat it anyway. So, Maccie D’s it is. Again. I can empathise
Your example is literally the problem with every policy the UK has come up with since New Labour. Everything is looked at through the lens of "hard working single mum" rather than the more common "two working parent family". I have no doubt it's difficult being a single mum, I also think the issue exists in countries across Europe, yet they have nowhere near the same childhood obesity issues, nothing like the takeaway and fast food consumption we have and being healthy is actively encouraged by the state rather than seen as a chore or something reserved for the middle classes because "they have the time" or "it's unfair to expect hardworking single mum to prepare healthy food for her kids, but hardworking middle class mum uses 37 billion ingredients and has hard working middle class dad to do the washing up and they don't understand how difficult real life is".
Also on McDonald's I fully get what you're saying and I'm sure when my own kid is 4 years old and screaming at me because it doesn't want to eat broccoli for the 7000th time that week McDonald's will look like a good option. That doesn't make it a good option.
Looking forward to the fluffers of the right demanding that this be put into context as they will inevitably do. There will always be a place for Mr Anderson in Douglas Ross's SCons if he feels he has to move on again.
That Ash Sarkar tweet exemplifies how out of touch the metropolitan luvviedom is with the Red Wall.
"Good on him" would be a common response.
Not that many traveller encampments in Islington, I suspect.
Lee Anderson is just saying what a lot of people think, probably a majority, albeit a silent one. It is good to have people like him because his views are not abhorrent, there is some truth in what he is saying. The underlying problem, is that foodbanks are providing the type of welfare that the state should be providing. They are a symptom of state failure. The correct role of this type of welfare plus, like foodbanks, should be helping people the state cannot help due to their own lifestyle choices and poor decision making. I would challenge him on the 30p meal idea, because one of the major problems is that cheap food is actually disappearing from the supermarket, ie the 7p tins of beans, the 19p pasta, 30 p orange juice etc. The cost of living crisis is such that, even if you are earning ok, you can't necessarily afford food, largely because of housing and energy costs. I would say, that the change that needs to take place, is that the government need to have as an objective providing a basic income to cover very basic housing, food, heating. There can be a debate as to what this should amount to, but the reality is that for many people the 'free market' doesn't work.
You almost lost me at 'silent majority'
But, having read on, there's a lot to agree with in this.
To me the key question here is why are the poor, poor? The answer that the left are more likely to give is that it is because of inequality (it's society's fault). The answer you will hear more on the right is that it is because the poor make bad life choices. The truth will vary from case to case and is probably a bit of both.
if you believe the left's answer then the solution to helping the poor is to increase benefits and look at measures to reduce inequality. If you believe the right's answer then the solution is to help the poor make better life choices, which is in part where Anderson is coming from.
if you look at international aid campaigns then you often hear something like this "give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime". The problem is our benefits system just gives people the fish.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll bugger off at the crack of dawn and not bother you for the rest of the day
Problem is he's doubling down on his nonsense and obscuring any legitimate points he's trying to make. "Use is exaggerated". I've worked in a food bank. We kept scrupulous records. The Trussell Trust requires referrals. He's implying widespread fraud. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Yes he is playing politics with it all, as are much of the left on the opposite side in response.
The better response from Labour would be along the lines of:
We do not agree with how you have framed it but thanks for raising the importance of better food and personal finance education. What funding is the government willing to allocate to address this nationally?
Nah, it's easier for them to say "look evul torys, vote for us" despite this same tactic failing in 2015.
The reason this has had such a furious reaction from the left is because there is a recognisable grain of truth in what he's saying. Lots of people in food poverty spend far, far too much money on fast food. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to McDonald's this year or any other fast food place. Go to any council estate and take a look at their spending, I can guarantee the average will be far higher than it is in a leafy suburb.
I think you are correct that there is some truth in what he is saying and that makes the response more emotional than it would be if he was talking complete nonsense, which happens surprisingly often in politics nowadays.
But reactions are just as bad on the right as the left. We do not listen and assume the worst of each other. We have little interest in where a pragmatic consensus middle ground can lie. We want to win and the others to lose.
I fail to see how our politics or government delivery gets much better in the next decade and this particular story explains why.
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
An Italian colleague was lamenting Londoners calling themselves "foodies" recently, suggesting that in Italy it's just normal life. I think she's right. What we'd call a "foodie" in the UK is simply living normally in lots of European countries (notable exceptions include Germany and the Netherlands which also have the same shit food as the UK).
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
We have amazing produce in the UK, eg possibly the best seafood in the world, so that doesn’t explain it. We can’t grow oranges but English strawberries are superb etc etc
I’ve always understood it as the fault of the Industrial Revolution which disconnected people from rural life and the source of all their food, and of course that happened first in the UK, and in a bigger way in the UK than almost anywhere else
And British food is vastly better now (and much better than Germany or the Netherlands). TV cooking shows are a major reason for this. Maybe THE reason
I just bought these today for my wife. About £12 for the box, and the supermarket can’t get enough of them.
Problem is he's doubling down on his nonsense and obscuring any legitimate points he's trying to make. "Use is exaggerated". I've worked in a food bank. We kept scrupulous records. The Trussell Trust requires referrals. He's implying widespread fraud. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Yes he is playing politics with it all, as are much of the left on the opposite side in response.
The better response from Labour would be along the lines of:
We do not agree with how you have framed it but thanks for raising the importance of better food and personal finance education. What funding is the government willing to allocate to address this nationally?
Nah, it's easier for them to say "look evul torys, vote for us" despite this same tactic failing in 2015.
The reason this has had such a furious reaction from the left is because there is a recognisable grain of truth in what he's saying. Lots of people in food poverty spend far, far too much money on fast food. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to McDonald's this year or any other fast food place. Go to any council estate and take a look at their spending, I can guarantee the average will be far higher than it is in a leafy suburb.
Wait til your offspring arrives. You will find McDonalds an amazingly useful place to feed and quieten the kid/s, I guarantee
And this is an important point. A hard pressed single mum hasn’t got time or energy to whip up home made pasta with arrabiata sauce and a green salad, her kids probably wouldn’t eat it anyway. So, Maccie D’s it is. Again. I can empathise
How come French, Italian and Spanish children happily eat proper food?
Rick Stein tells a great story about visiting a Breton oyster farm and encountering a gang of seven-year-old French schoolchildren enthusiastically feasting on various varieties of bivalves, and thinking that this would never happen in England.
We indoctrinate our children into favouring beige salty stuff because we have this cultural idea that "children don't like food". See children's menus in English restaurants – mostly shite. I have seen even otherwise wise, urbane, metroey friends do exactly this.
Give your children home-cooked, garlicky food from five months old and they will eat well all their lives in most cases.
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
*reads this while full of three-game-bird-terrine from a local supplier, and gherkins, in a roll eaten with home made minestrone soup with bits of cheese scone broken into it*
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
An Italian colleague was lamenting Londoners calling themselves "foodies" recently, suggesting that in Italy it's just normal life. I think she's right. What we'd call a "foodie" in the UK is simply living normally in lots of European countries (notable exceptions include Germany and the Netherlands which also have the same shit food as the UK).
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
We have amazing produce in the UK, eg possibly the best seafood in the world, so that doesn’t explain it. We can’t grow oranges but English strawberries are superb etc etc
I’ve always understood it as the fault of the Industrial Revolution which disconnected people from rural life and the source of all their food, and of course that happened first in the UK, and in a bigger way in the UK than almost anywhere else
And British food is vastly better now (and much better than Germany or the Netherlands). TV cooking shows are a major reason for this. Maybe THE reason
I think it is largely because southern Europe evolved more flavoursome food related to some specific foodstuffs that could be grown in great quantities and had greater taste (eg olives and garlic, tomatoes), whereas northern Europe was just focussed on food as a fuel that kept you warm through cold winters.
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
An Italian colleague was lamenting Londoners calling themselves "foodies" recently, suggesting that in Italy it's just normal life. I think she's right. What we'd call a "foodie" in the UK is simply living normally in lots of European countries (notable exceptions include Germany and the Netherlands which also have the same shit food as the UK).
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
We have amazing produce in the UK, eg possibly the best seafood in the world, so that doesn’t explain it. We can’t grow oranges but English strawberries are superb etc etc
I’ve always understood it as the fault of the Industrial Revolution which disconnected people from rural life and the source of all their food, and of course that happened first in the UK, and in a bigger way in the UK than almost anywhere else
And British food is vastly better now (and much better than Germany or the Netherlands). TV cooking shows are a major reason for this. Maybe THE reason
I feel like somewhere between the Industrial Revolution to the hang ups from WW2 rationing and the homogenisation of species/supermarket offerings, the country forgot what culinary gifts it was blessed with. We now have world class meat produce too, not just sea food, and some fabulous traditional ways of seasoning it. Same for fruit.
Problem is he's doubling down on his nonsense and obscuring any legitimate points he's trying to make. "Use is exaggerated". I've worked in a food bank. We kept scrupulous records. The Trussell Trust requires referrals. He's implying widespread fraud. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Yes he is playing politics with it all, as are much of the left on the opposite side in response.
The better response from Labour would be along the lines of:
We do not agree with how you have framed it but thanks for raising the importance of better food and personal finance education. What funding is the government willing to allocate to address this nationally?
Nah, it's easier for them to say "look evul torys, vote for us" despite this same tactic failing in 2015.
The reason this has had such a furious reaction from the left is because there is a recognisable grain of truth in what he's saying. Lots of people in food poverty spend far, far too much money on fast food. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to McDonald's this year or any other fast food place. Go to any council estate and take a look at their spending, I can guarantee the average will be far higher than it is in a leafy suburb.
Wait til your offspring arrives. You will find McDonalds an amazingly useful place to feed and quieten the kid/s, I guarantee
And this is an important point. A hard pressed single mum hasn’t got time or energy to whip up home made pasta with arrabiata sauce and a green salad, her kids probably wouldn’t eat it anyway. So, Maccie D’s it is. Again. I can empathise
Your example is literally the problem with every policy the UK has come up with since New Labour. Everything is looked at through the lens of "hard working single mum" rather than the more common "two working parent family". I have no doubt it's difficult being a single mum, I also think the issue exists in countries across Europe, yet they have nowhere near the same childhood obesity issues, nothing like the takeaway and fast food consumption we have and being healthy is actively encouraged by the state rather than seen as a chore or something reserved for the middle classes because "they have the time" or "it's unfair to expect hardworking single mum to prepare healthy food for her kids, but hardworking middle class mum uses 37 billion ingredients and has hard working middle class dad to do the washing up and they don't understand how difficult real life is".
Also on McDonald's I fully get what you're saying and I'm sure when my own kid is 4 years old and screaming at me because it doesn't want to eat broccoli for the 7000th time that week McDonald's will look like a good option. That doesn't make it a good option.
Actually it is a pretty good option. McDonalds’s is not intrinsically unhealthy if you eat it in moderation. It’s cheap nourishing food which is tasty enough and provides all the basics (I always made sure my kids had some fruit at the end). I’ll wager you end up there once a month
I hear you on Single Mums but there ARE an awful lot of them, and it ain’t easy. Like everyone else on here I cannot understand why basic cookery is not taught in every school to the age of 16, along with personal banking and financial management, now to read a map, where Poland is, how to book a plane ticket, how British politics works, how to replace a lightbulb, painting and decorating, really really simple but important life skills that too many people just don’t have
It would make a good Labour education policy and it would be popular across the board
Lee Anderson is just saying what a lot of people think, probably a majority, albeit a silent one. It is good to have people like him because his views are not abhorrent, there is some truth in what he is saying. The underlying problem, is that foodbanks are providing the type of welfare that the state should be providing. They are a symptom of state failure. The correct role of this type of welfare plus, like foodbanks, should be helping people the state cannot help due to their own lifestyle choices and poor decision making. I would challenge him on the 30p meal idea, because one of the major problems is that cheap food is actually disappearing from the supermarket, ie the 7p tins of beans, the 19p pasta, 30 p orange juice etc. The cost of living crisis is such that, even if you are earning ok, you can't necessarily afford food, largely because of housing and energy costs. I would say, that the change that needs to take place, is that the government need to have as an objective providing a basic income to cover very basic housing, food, heating. There can be a debate as to what this should amount to, but the reality is that for many people the 'free market' doesn't work.
You almost lost me at 'silent majority'
But, having read on, there's a lot to agree with in this.
To me the key question here is why are the poor, poor? The answer that the left are more likely to give is that it is because of inequality (it's society's fault). The answer you will hear more on the right is that it is because the poor make bad life choices. The truth will vary from case to case and is probably a bit of both.
if you believe the left's answer then the solution to helping the poor is to increase benefits and look at measures to reduce inequality. If you believe the right's answer then the solution is to help the poor make better life choices, which is in part where Anderson is coming from.
if you look at international aid campaigns then you often hear something like this "give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime". The problem is our benefits system just gives people the fish.
I might not know (nor care too much) why the poor are poor, but what can we do to help them out.
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
An Italian colleague was lamenting Londoners calling themselves "foodies" recently, suggesting that in Italy it's just normal life. I think she's right. What we'd call a "foodie" in the UK is simply living normally in lots of European countries (notable exceptions include Germany and the Netherlands which also have the same shit food as the UK).
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
We have amazing produce in the UK, eg possibly the best seafood in the world, so that doesn’t explain it. We can’t grow oranges but English strawberries are superb etc etc
I’ve always understood it as the fault of the Industrial Revolution which disconnected people from rural life and the source of all their food, and of course that happened first in the UK, and in a bigger way in the UK than almost anywhere else
And British food is vastly better now (and much better than Germany or the Netherlands). TV cooking shows are a major reason for this. Maybe THE reason
I just bought these today for my wife. About £12 for the box, and the supermarket can’t get enough of them.
Hmm, that works out at 40 meals - or 40 days - in Tory MPspeak, depending on how one reads Hansard. About one berry each.
(But, seriously, good for you. It looks a really nice treat.)
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
An Italian colleague was lamenting Londoners calling themselves "foodies" recently, suggesting that in Italy it's just normal life. I think she's right. What we'd call a "foodie" in the UK is simply living normally in lots of European countries (notable exceptions include Germany and the Netherlands which also have the same shit food as the UK).
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
We have amazing produce in the UK, eg possibly the best seafood in the world, so that doesn’t explain it. We can’t grow oranges but English strawberries are superb etc etc
I’ve always understood it as the fault of the Industrial Revolution which disconnected people from rural life and the source of all their food, and of course that happened first in the UK, and in a bigger way in the UK than almost anywhere else
And British food is vastly better now (and much better than Germany or the Netherlands). TV cooking shows are a major reason for this. Maybe THE reason
I think it is largely because southern Europe evolved more flavoursome food related to some specific foodstuffs that could be grown in great quantities and had greater taste (eg olives and garlic, tomatoes), whereas northern Europe was just focussed on food as a fuel that kept you warm through cold winters.
Well said. English strawberries are fantastic in the summer, but weren't going to keep you going through the winter.
That we can enjoy summer fruits all year round now is a modern development, its hardly surprising historical cuisines weren't adapted to that.
Problem is he's doubling down on his nonsense and obscuring any legitimate points he's trying to make. "Use is exaggerated". I've worked in a food bank. We kept scrupulous records. The Trussell Trust requires referrals. He's implying widespread fraud. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Yes he is playing politics with it all, as are much of the left on the opposite side in response.
The better response from Labour would be along the lines of:
We do not agree with how you have framed it but thanks for raising the importance of better food and personal finance education. What funding is the government willing to allocate to address this nationally?
Nah, it's easier for them to say "look evul torys, vote for us" despite this same tactic failing in 2015.
The reason this has had such a furious reaction from the left is because there is a recognisable grain of truth in what he's saying. Lots of people in food poverty spend far, far too much money on fast food. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to McDonald's this year or any other fast food place. Go to any council estate and take a look at their spending, I can guarantee the average will be far higher than it is in a leafy suburb.
Wait til your offspring arrives. You will find McDonalds an amazingly useful place to feed and quieten the kid/s, I guarantee
And this is an important point. A hard pressed single mum hasn’t got time or energy to whip up home made pasta with arrabiata sauce and a green salad, her kids probably wouldn’t eat it anyway. So, Maccie D’s it is. Again. I can empathise
True. To a certain extent. It comes down to the quality, skill and inventiveness of the mum's cooking. And what Mum herself eats. If it's good and varied from a very early age, kids will eat it. But most can't cook. We're back to education again. It's inter-generational.
My epiphany moment was tasting that tinned "children's food" when my son was five months. The carrots tasted – quite literally – of nothing at all.
He wasn't eating them. Instinctively, I whacked them in a frying pan with some oil, pinch of salt, fresh cherry tomatoes and garlic and mashed them up to see what would happen.
He munched the lot.
I never bought tinned "children's food" ever again.
Problem is he's doubling down on his nonsense and obscuring any legitimate points he's trying to make. "Use is exaggerated". I've worked in a food bank. We kept scrupulous records. The Trussell Trust requires referrals. He's implying widespread fraud. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Yes he is playing politics with it all, as are much of the left on the opposite side in response.
The better response from Labour would be along the lines of:
We do not agree with how you have framed it but thanks for raising the importance of better food and personal finance education. What funding is the government willing to allocate to address this nationally?
Nah, it's easier for them to say "look evul torys, vote for us" despite this same tactic failing in 2015.
The reason this has had such a furious reaction from the left is because there is a recognisable grain of truth in what he's saying. Lots of people in food poverty spend far, far too much money on fast food. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to McDonald's this year or any other fast food place. Go to any council estate and take a look at their spending, I can guarantee the average will be far higher than it is in a leafy suburb.
Wait til your offspring arrives. You will find McDonalds an amazingly useful place to feed and quieten the kid/s, I guarantee
And this is an important point. A hard pressed single mum hasn’t got time or energy to whip up home made pasta with arrabiata sauce and a green salad, her kids probably wouldn’t eat it anyway. So, Maccie D’s it is. Again. I can empathise
Your example is literally the problem with every policy the UK has come up with since New Labour. Everything is looked at through the lens of "hard working single mum" rather than the more common "two working parent family". I have no doubt it's difficult being a single mum, I also think the issue exists in countries across Europe, yet they have nowhere near the same childhood obesity issues, nothing like the takeaway and fast food consumption we have and being healthy is actively encouraged by the state rather than seen as a chore or something reserved for the middle classes because "they have the time" or "it's unfair to expect hardworking single mum to prepare healthy food for her kids, but hardworking middle class mum uses 37 billion ingredients and has hard working middle class dad to do the washing up and they don't understand how difficult real life is".
Also on McDonald's I fully get what you're saying and I'm sure when my own kid is 4 years old and screaming at me because it doesn't want to eat broccoli for the 7000th time that week McDonald's will look like a good option. That doesn't make it a good option.
Actually it is a pretty good option. McDonalds’s is not intrinsically unhealthy if you eat it in moderation. It’s cheap nourishing food which is tasty enough and provides all the basics (I always made sure my kids had some fruit at the end). I’ll wager you end up there once a month
I hear you on Single Mums but there ARE an awful lot of them, and it ain’t easy. Like everyone else on here I cannot understand why basic cookery is not taught in every school to the age of 16, along with personal banking and financial management, now to read a map, where Poland is, how to book a plane ticket, how British politics works, how to replace a lightbulb, painting and decorating, really really simple but important life skills that too many people just don’t have
It would make a good Labour education policy and it would be popular across the board
Everyone knows what an ox bow lake is though don’t they
Problem is he's doubling down on his nonsense and obscuring any legitimate points he's trying to make. "Use is exaggerated". I've worked in a food bank. We kept scrupulous records. The Trussell Trust requires referrals. He's implying widespread fraud. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Yes he is playing politics with it all, as are much of the left on the opposite side in response.
The better response from Labour would be along the lines of:
We do not agree with how you have framed it but thanks for raising the importance of better food and personal finance education. What funding is the government willing to allocate to address this nationally?
Nah, it's easier for them to say "look evul torys, vote for us" despite this same tactic failing in 2015.
The reason this has had such a furious reaction from the left is because there is a recognisable grain of truth in what he's saying. Lots of people in food poverty spend far, far too much money on fast food. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to McDonald's this year or any other fast food place. Go to any council estate and take a look at their spending, I can guarantee the average will be far higher than it is in a leafy suburb.
Wait til your offspring arrives. You will find McDonalds an amazingly useful place to feed and quieten the kid/s, I guarantee
And this is an important point. A hard pressed single mum hasn’t got time or energy to whip up home made pasta with arrabiata sauce and a green salad, her kids probably wouldn’t eat it anyway. So, Maccie D’s it is. Again. I can empathise
How come French, Italian and Spanish children happily eat proper food?
Rick Stein tells a great story about visiting a Breton oyster farm and encountering a gang of seven-year-old French schoolchildren enthusiastically feasting on various varieties of bivalves, and thinking that this would never happen in England.
We indoctrinate our children into favouring beige salty stuff because we have this cultural idea that "children don't like food". See children's menus in English restaurants – mostly shite. I have seen even otherwise wise, urbane, metroey friends do exactly this.
Give your children home-cooked, garlicky food from five months old and they will eat well all their lives in most cases.
Nothing wrong with beige salty stuff. Aka porridge.
Problem is he's doubling down on his nonsense and obscuring any legitimate points he's trying to make. "Use is exaggerated". I've worked in a food bank. We kept scrupulous records. The Trussell Trust requires referrals. He's implying widespread fraud. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Yes he is playing politics with it all, as are much of the left on the opposite side in response.
The better response from Labour would be along the lines of:
We do not agree with how you have framed it but thanks for raising the importance of better food and personal finance education. What funding is the government willing to allocate to address this nationally?
Nah, it's easier for them to say "look evul torys, vote for us" despite this same tactic failing in 2015.
The reason this has had such a furious reaction from the left is because there is a recognisable grain of truth in what he's saying. Lots of people in food poverty spend far, far too much money on fast food. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to McDonald's this year or any other fast food place. Go to any council estate and take a look at their spending, I can guarantee the average will be far higher than it is in a leafy suburb.
Wait til your offspring arrives. You will find McDonalds an amazingly useful place to feed and quieten the kid/s, I guarantee
And this is an important point. A hard pressed single mum hasn’t got time or energy to whip up home made pasta with arrabiata sauce and a green salad, her kids probably wouldn’t eat it anyway. So, Maccie D’s it is. Again. I can empathise
Your example is literally the problem with every policy the UK has come up with since New Labour. Everything is looked at through the lens of "hard working single mum" rather than the more common "two working parent family". I have no doubt it's difficult being a single mum, I also think the issue exists in countries across Europe, yet they have nowhere near the same childhood obesity issues, nothing like the takeaway and fast food consumption we have and being healthy is actively encouraged by the state rather than seen as a chore or something reserved for the middle classes because "they have the time" or "it's unfair to expect hardworking single mum to prepare healthy food for her kids, but hardworking middle class mum uses 37 billion ingredients and has hard working middle class dad to do the washing up and they don't understand how difficult real life is".
Also on McDonald's I fully get what you're saying and I'm sure when my own kid is 4 years old and screaming at me because it doesn't want to eat broccoli for the 7000th time that week McDonald's will look like a good option. That doesn't make it a good option.
Actually it is a pretty good option. McDonalds’s is not intrinsically unhealthy if you eat it in moderation. It’s cheap nourishing food which is tasty enough and provides all the basics (I always made sure my kids had some fruit at the end). I’ll wager you end up there once a month
I hear you on Single Mums but there ARE an awful lot of them, and it ain’t easy. Like everyone else on here I cannot understand why basic cookery is not taught in every school to the age of 16, along with personal banking and financial management, now to read a map, where Poland is, how to book a plane ticket, how British politics works, how to replace a lightbulb, painting and decorating, really really simple but important life skills that too many people just don’t have
It would make a good Labour education policy and it would be popular across the board
On food banks. Those most in favour of them are, of course, those who are fortunate enough never to have to use them.
As for those who do use them. Well, they are of course very grateful that they exist. But many people who use them find it deeply humiliating to do so; using them is dehumanising, though not as much as begging.
I'm not persuaded that having world-beating food banks is something that we, as one of the richest countries in the world, should be particularly proud of. Rather, I see it as a badge of shame that poor people have to receive charity while so many of our citizens find that food constitutes a very small proportion of their outgoings. But I guess that's why I'm a leftie.
You must be livid that they started under Labour. Can you list the european countries from example which do not have food banks? In fact they are supported by the EU.
EU food banks good. UK food banks bad.
To you and Felix - I never mentioned the EU. Food banks are bad wherever they are in the 'rich' world - UK, EU and USA. I didn't make the distinction that is in your imagination. Not everything's to do with fucking Brexit, you know.
Food banks are brilliant, the embodiment of the Big Society at work. Why does so much of the modern left have such a problem with local charities helping out the disadvantaged in society?
(Sorry, but if there was a Labour government, food banks would be seen as brilliant by those who currently denounce them).
Not by me they wouldn't. If food bank usage increased under a Labour government I'd be furious.
Because they would be competing with the Labour party as a source of handouts?
Pathetic. No, because it would be evidence that Labour hadn't done enough to reduce the gross inequalities of income and life chances that prevail in this country.
No, its not.
Providing a safety net to support people is doing something to reduce the gross inequalities of chances. That's what Labour are supposed to believe in.
The fact that a safety net of charity replaced the predatory loan sharks is something that should be supported, not sneered at.
2014 is the year that is typically quoted as the year food bank use exploded, which is claimed to be a failure rather than a success and why it was made an issue in the 2015 election.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/54ebb03bed915d0cf7000014/Payday_investigation_Final_report.pdf In 2014 the market contracted, and both payday lending revenue and the volume of new loans issued fell year on year by around 27% for the period January to September 2014. Four of the 11 major lenders identified at the start of our investigation, as well as some smaller ones, decided to stop issuing payday loans during 2014.
A 27% fall in volume of new loans issued and a 54% fall in problems reported to Citizens Advice is proof that the loanshark industry took a major blow in the same year as the usage of food banks exploded.
Prior to then, people didn't have access to foodbanks so they were forced to turn to loan sharks. This is something to be celebrated that they exist now and that people are turning to food banks instead of loan sharks is unambiguously, unequivocally, positively a great thing.
I can't wrap my head around how anyone could sneer or consider a safety net to be a bad thing?
I can't see food banks any where in the CAB article, they cite:
New evidence from the national charity reveals a steady decline in payday loan problems from April 2014 as new regulations were introduced by the Financial Conduct Authority and the regulator took enforcement action against lenders. It also shows a further drop when the Government introduced the cap on payday loans on 2 January 2015.
Nothing to do with food but regulation of an industry filled with shysters.
There's no mention of food banks in the government report either.
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
An Italian colleague was lamenting Londoners calling themselves "foodies" recently, suggesting that in Italy it's just normal life. I think she's right. What we'd call a "foodie" in the UK is simply living normally in lots of European countries (notable exceptions include Germany and the Netherlands which also have the same shit food as the UK).
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
We have amazing produce in the UK, eg possibly the best seafood in the world, so that doesn’t explain it. We can’t grow oranges but English strawberries are superb etc etc
I’ve always understood it as the fault of the Industrial Revolution which disconnected people from rural life and the source of all their food, and of course that happened first in the UK, and in a bigger way in the UK than almost anywhere else
And British food is vastly better now (and much better than Germany or the Netherlands). TV cooking shows are a major reason for this. Maybe THE reason
I completely agree that TV shows have really helped get people engaged. The best seem to be the TV competitions where people see that Everyday Joes and Ordinary Janes (and Ed Balls!) can be great cooks and indeed win prizes.
They also teach great techniques almost by osmosis.
Looking forward to the fluffers of the right demanding that this be put into context as they will inevitably do. There will always be a place for Mr Anderson in Douglas Ross's SCons if he feels he has to move on again.
That Ash Sarkar tweet exemplifies how out of touch the metropolitan luvviedom is with the Red Wall.
"Good on him" would be a common response.
Not that many traveller encampments in Islington, I suspect.
Many round your bit?
The east end of Glasgow probably has the highest concentration of travelling folk in Scotland if not the UK, mainly of the showpeople & fairground variety. They keep themselves to themselves and are suspicious of authority but aren't any detriment to the wider community afaics. As ever there is plenty of variety within a loose definition of what is a group of people.
Edit: 'Housing an estimated 80% of all showfamilies Glasgow is believed to have the largest concentration of Showmen quarters in Europe, centred mostly in Shettleston, Whiteinch and Carntyne.'
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
An Italian colleague was lamenting Londoners calling themselves "foodies" recently, suggesting that in Italy it's just normal life. I think she's right. What we'd call a "foodie" in the UK is simply living normally in lots of European countries (notable exceptions include Germany and the Netherlands which also have the same shit food as the UK).
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
We have amazing produce in the UK, eg possibly the best seafood in the world, so that doesn’t explain it. We can’t grow oranges but English strawberries are superb etc etc
I’ve always understood it as the fault of the Industrial Revolution which disconnected people from rural life and the source of all their food, and of course that happened first in the UK, and in a bigger way in the UK than almost anywhere else
And British food is vastly better now (and much better than Germany or the Netherlands). TV cooking shows are a major reason for this. Maybe THE reason
Which is why we make absolutely stellar strawberry (and other) jam in the UK. But realistically most people eat fish in their fish and chips, not grilled or steamed with herbs, lemon and oil/butter served with grilled veg as it would be in the Med countries.
Building up a food culture takes a century, not decades. If you look at what British cuisine was like in the late 1800s and early 1900s that is what has fed into today's lack of appreciation for food and a fast food culture. If one's own food is not very good then that passes down generations who become less and less bothered by home cooking and eating properly. It's only since the 80s and the explosion in Empire cuisines (Indian, Hong Kong/Cantonese and West Indian mainly) that British food culture has had a recovery and only in the last 10-20 years has that revolution extended to outside of big cities and into home cooking.
Because Eurovision is 50/50 jury/public vote split, Ukraine shouldn't be as hot a favourite as it is. I can't see it as one of the top scorers in the jury vote so it's a question of how overwhelming the public vote is. We could be surprised.
Comedy Dave also makes the error by implying the European public won't vote for the UK because of Brexit (by stating that the UK is universally unpopular) when many countries in Eurovision are outside of the EU. The European public don't vote for the UK because the songs we send are (usually) garbage.
On food banks. Those most in favour of them are, of course, those who are fortunate enough never to have to use them.
As for those who do use them. Well, they are of course very grateful that they exist. But many people who use them find it deeply humiliating to do so; using them is dehumanising, though not as much as begging.
I'm not persuaded that having world-beating food banks is something that we, as one of the richest countries in the world, should be particularly proud of. Rather, I see it as a badge of shame that poor people have to receive charity while so many of our citizens find that food constitutes a very small proportion of their outgoings. But I guess that's why I'm a leftie.
You must be livid that they started under Labour. Can you list the european countries from example which do not have food banks? In fact they are supported by the EU.
EU food banks good. UK food banks bad.
To you and Felix - I never mentioned the EU. Food banks are bad wherever they are in the 'rich' world - UK, EU and USA. I didn't make the distinction that is in your imagination. Not everything's to do with fucking Brexit, you know.
Food banks are brilliant, the embodiment of the Big Society at work. Why does so much of the modern left have such a problem with local charities helping out the disadvantaged in society?
(Sorry, but if there was a Labour government, food banks would be seen as brilliant by those who currently denounce them).
Not by me they wouldn't. If food bank usage increased under a Labour government I'd be furious.
Because they would be competing with the Labour party as a source of handouts?
Pathetic. No, because it would be evidence that Labour hadn't done enough to reduce the gross inequalities of income and life chances that prevail in this country.
No, its not.
Providing a safety net to support people is doing something to reduce the gross inequalities of chances. That's what Labour are supposed to believe in.
The fact that a safety net of charity replaced the predatory loan sharks is something that should be supported, not sneered at.
2014 is the year that is typically quoted as the year food bank use exploded, which is claimed to be a failure rather than a success and why it was made an issue in the 2015 election.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/54ebb03bed915d0cf7000014/Payday_investigation_Final_report.pdf In 2014 the market contracted, and both payday lending revenue and the volume of new loans issued fell year on year by around 27% for the period January to September 2014. Four of the 11 major lenders identified at the start of our investigation, as well as some smaller ones, decided to stop issuing payday loans during 2014.
A 27% fall in volume of new loans issued and a 54% fall in problems reported to Citizens Advice is proof that the loanshark industry took a major blow in the same year as the usage of food banks exploded.
Prior to then, people didn't have access to foodbanks so they were forced to turn to loan sharks. This is something to be celebrated that they exist now and that people are turning to food banks instead of loan sharks is unambiguously, unequivocally, positively a great thing.
I can't wrap my head around how anyone could sneer or consider a safety net to be a bad thing?
I can't see food banks any where in the CAB article, they cite:
New evidence from the national charity reveals a steady decline in payday loan problems from April 2014 as new regulations were introduced by the Financial Conduct Authority and the regulator took enforcement action against lenders. It also shows a further drop when the Government introduced the cap on payday loans on 2 January 2015.
Nothing to do with food but regulation of an industry filled with shysters.
There's no mention of food banks in the government report either.
You're conflating the two issues.
Your argument is bollocks.
Its not bollocks. Desperate people were previously forced to go to loan sharks as the food bank infrastructure wasn't there.
From 2014, following deregulation of the charities by David Cameron as part of his Big Society reforms, the infrastructure was there and people were able to go there instead.
Usage of food banks went up, usage of loan sharks went down.
Which would you rather have, the 2014 onwards situation of food banks busy, but loan sharks down, or the 2013 and prior situation of food banks not in use (as the infrastructure wasn't there), but loan sharks busy?
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
An Italian colleague was lamenting Londoners calling themselves "foodies" recently, suggesting that in Italy it's just normal life. I think she's right. What we'd call a "foodie" in the UK is simply living normally in lots of European countries (notable exceptions include Germany and the Netherlands which also have the same shit food as the UK).
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
That isn't factual. As a matter of fact, the French culture of sauces etc. is said to have developed to disguise inferior produce. English apples trees (which were pulled up when we went into the EU) produce famously more flavourful varieties than their bland replacements from France. We live in a place with a temperate climate that allows a vast amount of deliciously flavoured thinga to grow and plentiful rainfall that allows lush grazing. Not to mention being surrounded by the produce of the sea.
Problem is he's doubling down on his nonsense and obscuring any legitimate points he's trying to make. "Use is exaggerated". I've worked in a food bank. We kept scrupulous records. The Trussell Trust requires referrals. He's implying widespread fraud. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Yes he is playing politics with it all, as are much of the left on the opposite side in response.
The better response from Labour would be along the lines of:
We do not agree with how you have framed it but thanks for raising the importance of better food and personal finance education. What funding is the government willing to allocate to address this nationally?
Nah, it's easier for them to say "look evul torys, vote for us" despite this same tactic failing in 2015.
The reason this has had such a furious reaction from the left is because there is a recognisable grain of truth in what he's saying. Lots of people in food poverty spend far, far too much money on fast food. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to McDonald's this year or any other fast food place. Go to any council estate and take a look at their spending, I can guarantee the average will be far higher than it is in a leafy suburb.
Wait til your offspring arrives. You will find McDonalds an amazingly useful place to feed and quieten the kid/s, I guarantee
And this is an important point. A hard pressed single mum hasn’t got time or energy to whip up home made pasta with arrabiata sauce and a green salad, her kids probably wouldn’t eat it anyway. So, Maccie D’s it is. Again. I can empathise
How come French, Italian and Spanish children happily eat proper food?
Rick Stein tells a great story about visiting a Breton oyster farm and encountering a gang of seven-year-old French schoolchildren enthusiastically feasting on various varieties of bivalves, and thinking that this would never happen in England.
We indoctrinate our children into favouring beige salty stuff because we have this cultural idea that "children don't like food". See children's menus in English restaurants – mostly shite. I have seen even otherwise wise, urbane, metroey friends do exactly this.
Give your children home-cooked, garlicky food from five months old and they will eat well all their lives in most cases.
They will. But they won't get that if that isn't what the parents eat. It's inherited. And probably traceable back to rationing. Most of the people I know eat much better and more varied than their parents do or did. But it's a long, slow process. I agree on the utterly bizarre idea kids won't eat. They eat what they are given, with likes and dislikes just like adults. If you tell them they shouldn't like broccoli they won't. Both sets of my kids grandparents tried that trick.
Steven Swinford @Steven_Swinford · 4h Sir Howard Davies, chairman of Natwest, says the poorest will need to reduce their discretionary spending by *20%* to cope with soaring inflation and energy prices
He says the Government should focus on increasing benefits rather than across the board tax cuts
This coming recession is going to devastate our hospitality industry.
I was reading a thread on twitter from a guy who runs a chippie who has said his veg oil has gone (for a 20L drum) from £20 to £50 overnight from the wholesalers.
They will have to pass these costs on.
To people who have less and less discretionary spend.
The coming recession is going to be another disastrous Tory recession. They are good at them.
The chippy we use when my sister and I visit Dad on a Friday for lunch has just put a quid on all fish due to Ukraine and inflation. In terms of the crisis Any solution that tackles all the underlying issues will be completely unacceptable to the cosseted and do nothing to lift those at the bottom (at best stick foundation and support under them) The country wants to wish away what's coming, Labour want to Toryblame it away and the Tories want it to just go somewhere else or put on a disguise so nobody notices it. Catastrophe incoming.
Far more worrying than the inevitable recession in the OECD countries, is the very real prospect of Famine in the “Global South”, and what generally comes with that - unrest, strife, war, you name it
Sri Lanka is already wobbling badly. If the Ukraine war grinds on, God help all of us, everywhere
The enormity hasn't quite entered western consciousness yet, it's a shadow on the edge of a restless dream. It stands a chance of reshaping everything. America is probably done and will sink into massive civil unrest and possible split, the fundamental differences there between the young and the radical democrats and the Bible belt and De Santis/Trump republicanism are irreconcilable currently being played out in the Roe vs Wade miasma
“A SHADOW ON THE EDGE OF A RESTLESS DREAM”
That’s excellent. And exactly right. A kind of nameless, formless, distant dread. The world seems like it is returning to normal, and yet - the darkness at the edge of town… the booms of faraway cannon, maybe getting nearer
Auden caught the mood in his quintessential poem of the 1930s. He even mentions the flu in the last two genius stanzas
The Fall of Rome
W H Auden
The piers are pummelled by the waves; In a lonely field the rain Lashes an abandoned train; Outlaws fill the mountain caves.
Fantastic grow the evening gowns; Agents of the Fisc pursue Absconding tax-defaulters through The sewers of provincial towns.
Private rites of magic send The temple prostitutes to sleep; All the literati keep An imaginary friend.
Cerebrotonic Cato may Extol the Ancient Disciplines, But the muscle-bound Marines Mutiny for food and pay.
Caesar's double-bed is warm As an unimportant clerk Writes I DO NOT LIKE MY WORK On a pink official form.
Unendowed with wealth or pity, Little birds with scarlet legs, Sitting on their speckled eggs, Eye each flu-infected city.
Altogether elsewhere, vast Herds of reindeer move across Miles and miles of golden moss, Silently and very fast.
Yes indeedy. Or the excellent description of the everyday goings on as the cylinders land in War of the Worlds. Obviously we do not face an existential crisis but 'normality' most certainly does
Well, we’re closer to nuclear war than we’ve been since…. Ever?
That is literally existential. It could destroy human civilisation as we know it
This sense of The End of Rome is one reason I am getting a lot of traveling done now. Just in case the world takes an even darker turn. I’m not convinced it will, not like I was in Early Covid, but i do note the shadow at the edge of the restless dream. And so: just in case
I'm unconvinced nukes loom larger than '50 to '90 but yeah nearer than 90 to 2020! Although I think the bulk of the Russian arsenal is probably useless anyway due to lack of maintenance and tritium theft etc They'd still have enough to make it messy of course
Is there much of a market for second hand Tritium of dubious origin on ebay or similar?
Problem is he's doubling down on his nonsense and obscuring any legitimate points he's trying to make. "Use is exaggerated". I've worked in a food bank. We kept scrupulous records. The Trussell Trust requires referrals. He's implying widespread fraud. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Yes he is playing politics with it all, as are much of the left on the opposite side in response.
The better response from Labour would be along the lines of:
We do not agree with how you have framed it but thanks for raising the importance of better food and personal finance education. What funding is the government willing to allocate to address this nationally?
Nah, it's easier for them to say "look evul torys, vote for us" despite this same tactic failing in 2015.
The reason this has had such a furious reaction from the left is because there is a recognisable grain of truth in what he's saying. Lots of people in food poverty spend far, far too much money on fast food. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to McDonald's this year or any other fast food place. Go to any council estate and take a look at their spending, I can guarantee the average will be far higher than it is in a leafy suburb.
Wait til your offspring arrives. You will find McDonalds an amazingly useful place to feed and quieten the kid/s, I guarantee
And this is an important point. A hard pressed single mum hasn’t got time or energy to whip up home made pasta with arrabiata sauce and a green salad, her kids probably wouldn’t eat it anyway. So, Maccie D’s it is. Again. I can empathise
Your example is literally the problem with every policy the UK has come up with since New Labour. Everything is looked at through the lens of "hard working single mum" rather than the more common "two working parent family". I have no doubt it's difficult being a single mum, I also think the issue exists in countries across Europe, yet they have nowhere near the same childhood obesity issues, nothing like the takeaway and fast food consumption we have and being healthy is actively encouraged by the state rather than seen as a chore or something reserved for the middle classes because "they have the time" or "it's unfair to expect hardworking single mum to prepare healthy food for her kids, but hardworking middle class mum uses 37 billion ingredients and has hard working middle class dad to do the washing up and they don't understand how difficult real life is".
Also on McDonald's I fully get what you're saying and I'm sure when my own kid is 4 years old and screaming at me because it doesn't want to eat broccoli for the 7000th time that week McDonald's will look like a good option. That doesn't make it a good option.
Knowing what I do about you and your wife and your interest in cookery, I'm fairly confident that this won't happen because a) you will will bring your child up from a very early age to eat properly seasoned and flavoured food and b) you will vary the menu to avoid incessant broccoli repetition.
Good luck with the next few weeks by the way – I saw your posts a few days go. Best wishes to you and Mrs PB.
38 per cent Firsts, up from a mere 16 per cent under Labour.
What do people expect when you pay so much for degrees. If you've spent (or more accurately, will spend) on your degree then you don't expect to come out with a 3rd. There must be a lot of pressure to give good degrees as a result. When people weren't paying themselves to go to University there wasn't an expectation that you would get given a good grade but it would depend on the level of achievement. One of the reasons I am in favour of fewer people going to University. Although, I think there should be far more vocational options to go alongside it!
It is partly that, and partly that students are far more professional than they used to be. Better learning techniques, more focus on the course. I reckon I could have got a First if I'd known then what I know now. University is no longer just a finishing school for poshos reliving Brideshead.
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
An Italian colleague was lamenting Londoners calling themselves "foodies" recently, suggesting that in Italy it's just normal life. I think she's right. What we'd call a "foodie" in the UK is simply living normally in lots of European countries (notable exceptions include Germany and the Netherlands which also have the same shit food as the UK).
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
We have amazing produce in the UK, eg possibly the best seafood in the world, so that doesn’t explain it. We can’t grow oranges but English strawberries are superb etc etc
I’ve always understood it as the fault of the Industrial Revolution which disconnected people from rural life and the source of all their food, and of course that happened first in the UK, and in a bigger way in the UK than almost anywhere else
And British food is vastly better now (and much better than Germany or the Netherlands). TV cooking shows are a major reason for this. Maybe THE reason
I completely agree that TV shows have really helped get people engaged. The best seem to be the TV competitions where people see that Everyday Joes and Ordinary Janes (and Ed Balls!) can be great cooks and indeed win prizes.
They also teach great techniques almost by osmosis.
Yes, I had this epiphany during an Anthony Bourdain episode when he goes to Melbourne and eats great food everywhere and he asks them “What happened, you guys used to be known for pie floaters and fish and chips”? And the chef comes back without batting an eyelid: “Masterchef”
I immediately realised this is what has happened in Britain, too. We did, after all, invent Masterchef (my agent represents the guy who devised the format, he is now obscenely rich). if you watch three series of Masterchef that’s a pretty good cookery course you are receiving, without even realising
Add in Jamie and Delia and the Hairy Bikers and the rest, and there is the answer to our much improved cuisine. Plus immigration and more money. That helps, too
On food banks. Those most in favour of them are, of course, those who are fortunate enough never to have to use them.
As for those who do use them. Well, they are of course very grateful that they exist. But many people who use them find it deeply humiliating to do so; using them is dehumanising, though not as much as begging.
I'm not persuaded that having world-beating food banks is something that we, as one of the richest countries in the world, should be particularly proud of. Rather, I see it as a badge of shame that poor people have to receive charity while so many of our citizens find that food constitutes a very small proportion of their outgoings. But I guess that's why I'm a leftie.
You must be livid that they started under Labour. Can you list the european countries from example which do not have food banks? In fact they are supported by the EU.
EU food banks good. UK food banks bad.
To you and Felix - I never mentioned the EU. Food banks are bad wherever they are in the 'rich' world - UK, EU and USA. I didn't make the distinction that is in your imagination. Not everything's to do with fucking Brexit, you know.
Food banks are brilliant, the embodiment of the Big Society at work. Why does so much of the modern left have such a problem with local charities helping out the disadvantaged in society?
(Sorry, but if there was a Labour government, food banks would be seen as brilliant by those who currently denounce them).
Charity is a good thing. But having more and more people relying on charity to make ends meet is a bad thing.
It's too easy, all this. I need stretching. Will pop back later.
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
An Italian colleague was lamenting Londoners calling themselves "foodies" recently, suggesting that in Italy it's just normal life. I think she's right. What we'd call a "foodie" in the UK is simply living normally in lots of European countries (notable exceptions include Germany and the Netherlands which also have the same shit food as the UK).
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
We have amazing produce in the UK, eg possibly the best seafood in the world, so that doesn’t explain it. We can’t grow oranges but English strawberries are superb etc etc
I’ve always understood it as the fault of the Industrial Revolution which disconnected people from rural life and the source of all their food, and of course that happened first in the UK, and in a bigger way in the UK than almost anywhere else
And British food is vastly better now (and much better than Germany or the Netherlands). TV cooking shows are a major reason for this. Maybe THE reason
I feel like somewhere between the Industrial Revolution to the hang ups from WW2 rationing and the homogenisation of species/supermarket offerings, the country forgot what culinary gifts it was blessed with. We now have world class meat produce too, not just sea food, and some fabulous traditional ways of seasoning it. Same for fruit.
The war is the biggest single recipient of blame for destroying the British diet. Powdered eggs. Everything tinned. Horrendous food trends that linger to this day. Look at the photos of the winning England team in 1966 - the teeth (or lack of). That's a legacy of the WW2 diet.
On food banks. Those most in favour of them are, of course, those who are fortunate enough never to have to use them.
As for those who do use them. Well, they are of course very grateful that they exist. But many people who use them find it deeply humiliating to do so; using them is dehumanising, though not as much as begging.
I'm not persuaded that having world-beating food banks is something that we, as one of the richest countries in the world, should be particularly proud of. Rather, I see it as a badge of shame that poor people have to receive charity while so many of our citizens find that food constitutes a very small proportion of their outgoings. But I guess that's why I'm a leftie.
You must be livid that they started under Labour. Can you list the european countries from example which do not have food banks? In fact they are supported by the EU.
EU food banks good. UK food banks bad.
To you and Felix - I never mentioned the EU. Food banks are bad wherever they are in the 'rich' world - UK, EU and USA. I didn't make the distinction that is in your imagination. Not everything's to do with fucking Brexit, you know.
Food banks are brilliant, the embodiment of the Big Society at work. Why does so much of the modern left have such a problem with local charities helping out the disadvantaged in society?
(Sorry, but if there was a Labour government, food banks would be seen as brilliant by those who currently denounce them).
Charity is a good thing. But having more and more people relying on charity to make ends meet is a bad thing.
It's too easy, all this. I need stretching. Will pop back later.
Which is better, more people relying on charity (2014+) or more people relying on loan sharks (pre-2014)?
I think having more and more people relying on charity instead of loan sharks is a very, very, very good thing.
Problem is he's doubling down on his nonsense and obscuring any legitimate points he's trying to make. "Use is exaggerated". I've worked in a food bank. We kept scrupulous records. The Trussell Trust requires referrals. He's implying widespread fraud. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Yes he is playing politics with it all, as are much of the left on the opposite side in response.
The better response from Labour would be along the lines of:
We do not agree with how you have framed it but thanks for raising the importance of better food and personal finance education. What funding is the government willing to allocate to address this nationally?
Nah, it's easier for them to say "look evul torys, vote for us" despite this same tactic failing in 2015.
The reason this has had such a furious reaction from the left is because there is a recognisable grain of truth in what he's saying. Lots of people in food poverty spend far, far too much money on fast food. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to McDonald's this year or any other fast food place. Go to any council estate and take a look at their spending, I can guarantee the average will be far higher than it is in a leafy suburb.
Wait til your offspring arrives. You will find McDonalds an amazingly useful place to feed and quieten the kid/s, I guarantee
And this is an important point. A hard pressed single mum hasn’t got time or energy to whip up home made pasta with arrabiata sauce and a green salad, her kids probably wouldn’t eat it anyway. So, Maccie D’s it is. Again. I can empathise
How come French, Italian and Spanish children happily eat proper food?
Rick Stein tells a great story about visiting a Breton oyster farm and encountering a gang of seven-year-old French schoolchildren enthusiastically feasting on various varieties of bivalves, and thinking that this would never happen in England.
We indoctrinate our children into favouring beige salty stuff because we have this cultural idea that "children don't like food". See children's menus in English restaurants – mostly shite. I have seen even otherwise wise, urbane, metroey friends do exactly this.
Give your children home-cooked, garlicky food from five months old and they will eat well all their lives in most cases.
Certainly true. Childrens menus are shocking. A perfect preparation for a junkfood adulthood and the diabetic clinic.
There is a British food culture, but a lot of it is about watching proper cooking on telly, while awaiting a lukewarm takeaway from Deliveroo.
Problem is he's doubling down on his nonsense and obscuring any legitimate points he's trying to make. "Use is exaggerated". I've worked in a food bank. We kept scrupulous records. The Trussell Trust requires referrals. He's implying widespread fraud. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Yes he is playing politics with it all, as are much of the left on the opposite side in response.
The better response from Labour would be along the lines of:
We do not agree with how you have framed it but thanks for raising the importance of better food and personal finance education. What funding is the government willing to allocate to address this nationally?
Nah, it's easier for them to say "look evul torys, vote for us" despite this same tactic failing in 2015.
The reason this has had such a furious reaction from the left is because there is a recognisable grain of truth in what he's saying. Lots of people in food poverty spend far, far too much money on fast food. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to McDonald's this year or any other fast food place. Go to any council estate and take a look at their spending, I can guarantee the average will be far higher than it is in a leafy suburb.
Wait til your offspring arrives. You will find McDonalds an amazingly useful place to feed and quieten the kid/s, I guarantee
And this is an important point. A hard pressed single mum hasn’t got time or energy to whip up home made pasta with arrabiata sauce and a green salad, her kids probably wouldn’t eat it anyway. So, Maccie D’s it is. Again. I can empathise
How come French, Italian and Spanish children happily eat proper food?
Rick Stein tells a great story about visiting a Breton oyster farm and encountering a gang of seven-year-old French schoolchildren enthusiastically feasting on various varieties of bivalves, and thinking that this would never happen in England.
We indoctrinate our children into favouring beige salty stuff because we have this cultural idea that "children don't like food". See children's menus in English restaurants – mostly shite. I have seen even otherwise wise, urbane, metroey friends do exactly this.
Give your children home-cooked, garlicky food from five months old and they will eat well all their lives in most cases.
They will. But they won't get that if that isn't what the parents eat. It's inherited. And probably traceable back to rationing. Most of the people I know eat much better and more varied than their parents do or did. But it's a long, slow process. I agree on the utterly bizarre idea kids won't eat. They eat what they are given, with likes and dislikes just like adults. If you tell them they shouldn't like broccoli they won't. Both sets of my kids grandparents tried that trick.
I find it effing maddening when we have friends/relations round for dinner and say "she won't like that" in earshot of the child, before said child has even tried it. As you say, that is the epitome of a self-fulfilling prophecy. I started eating mushrooms at 14 having refused them before because I stayed on my own with a childless uncle and aunt in London for a week who just served them to me and I forced them down. Five minutes later I realised I liked them. Had my mother been there, she would have said "he won't eat that".
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
An Italian colleague was lamenting Londoners calling themselves "foodies" recently, suggesting that in Italy it's just normal life. I think she's right. What we'd call a "foodie" in the UK is simply living normally in lots of European countries (notable exceptions include Germany and the Netherlands which also have the same shit food as the UK).
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
We have amazing produce in the UK, eg possibly the best seafood in the world, so that doesn’t explain it. We can’t grow oranges but English strawberries are superb etc etc
I’ve always understood it as the fault of the Industrial Revolution which disconnected people from rural life and the source of all their food, and of course that happened first in the UK, and in a bigger way in the UK than almost anywhere else
And British food is vastly better now (and much better than Germany or the Netherlands). TV cooking shows are a major reason for this. Maybe THE reason
I feel like somewhere between the Industrial Revolution to the hang ups from WW2 rationing and the homogenisation of species/supermarket offerings, the country forgot what culinary gifts it was blessed with. We now have world class meat produce too, not just sea food, and some fabulous traditional ways of seasoning it. Same for fruit.
The war is the biggest single recipient of blame for destroying the British diet. Powdered eggs. Everything tinned. Horrendous food trends that linger to this day. Look at the photos of the winning England team in 1966 - the teeth (or lack of). That's a legacy of the WW2 diet.
The war greatly improved health for a lot of people who ate better than otherwise. Brown bread, vitamins, British Restaurants, and so on. Perhaps more the relapse into peace. I don't think cooking changed greatly from before the war.
Problem is he's doubling down on his nonsense and obscuring any legitimate points he's trying to make. "Use is exaggerated". I've worked in a food bank. We kept scrupulous records. The Trussell Trust requires referrals. He's implying widespread fraud. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Yes he is playing politics with it all, as are much of the left on the opposite side in response.
The better response from Labour would be along the lines of:
We do not agree with how you have framed it but thanks for raising the importance of better food and personal finance education. What funding is the government willing to allocate to address this nationally?
Nah, it's easier for them to say "look evul torys, vote for us" despite this same tactic failing in 2015.
The reason this has had such a furious reaction from the left is because there is a recognisable grain of truth in what he's saying. Lots of people in food poverty spend far, far too much money on fast food. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to McDonald's this year or any other fast food place. Go to any council estate and take a look at their spending, I can guarantee the average will be far higher than it is in a leafy suburb.
Wait til your offspring arrives. You will find McDonalds an amazingly useful place to feed and quieten the kid/s, I guarantee
And this is an important point. A hard pressed single mum hasn’t got time or energy to whip up home made pasta with arrabiata sauce and a green salad, her kids probably wouldn’t eat it anyway. So, Maccie D’s it is. Again. I can empathise
How come French, Italian and Spanish children happily eat proper food?
Rick Stein tells a great story about visiting a Breton oyster farm and encountering a gang of seven-year-old French schoolchildren enthusiastically feasting on various varieties of bivalves, and thinking that this would never happen in England.
We indoctrinate our children into favouring beige salty stuff because we have this cultural idea that "children don't like food". See children's menus in English restaurants – mostly shite. I have seen even otherwise wise, urbane, metroey friends do exactly this.
Give your children home-cooked, garlicky food from five months old and they will eat well all their lives in most cases.
Certainly true. Childrens menus are shicking. A perfect preparation for a junkfood adulthood and the diabetic clinic.
There is a British food culture, but a lot of it is about watching proper cooking on telly, while awaiting a lukewarm takeaway from Deliveroo.
Could be worse. I recall a decade ago watching The Biggest Loser while eating KFC, when the irony struck me.
On food banks. Those most in favour of them are, of course, those who are fortunate enough never to have to use them.
As for those who do use them. Well, they are of course very grateful that they exist. But many people who use them find it deeply humiliating to do so; using them is dehumanising, though not as much as begging.
I'm not persuaded that having world-beating food banks is something that we, as one of the richest countries in the world, should be particularly proud of. Rather, I see it as a badge of shame that poor people have to receive charity while so many of our citizens find that food constitutes a very small proportion of their outgoings. But I guess that's why I'm a leftie.
You must be livid that they started under Labour. Can you list the european countries from example which do not have food banks? In fact they are supported by the EU.
EU food banks good. UK food banks bad.
To you and Felix - I never mentioned the EU. Food banks are bad wherever they are in the 'rich' world - UK, EU and USA. I didn't make the distinction that is in your imagination. Not everything's to do with fucking Brexit, you know.
Food banks are brilliant, the embodiment of the Big Society at work. Why does so much of the modern left have such a problem with local charities helping out the disadvantaged in society?
(Sorry, but if there was a Labour government, food banks would be seen as brilliant by those who currently denounce them).
Charity is a good thing. But having more and more people relying on charity to make ends meet is a bad thing.
It's too easy, all this. I need stretching. Will pop back later.
It would still be a form of charity if an extra allowance were to be made for food within the benefits system. The difference with food banks is that unsold food is used directly. Giving money to be spent on foods with profit margin intact seems like a bung to the supermarkets.
Problem is he's doubling down on his nonsense and obscuring any legitimate points he's trying to make. "Use is exaggerated". I've worked in a food bank. We kept scrupulous records. The Trussell Trust requires referrals. He's implying widespread fraud. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Yes he is playing politics with it all, as are much of the left on the opposite side in response.
The better response from Labour would be along the lines of:
We do not agree with how you have framed it but thanks for raising the importance of better food and personal finance education. What funding is the government willing to allocate to address this nationally?
Nah, it's easier for them to say "look evul torys, vote for us" despite this same tactic failing in 2015.
The reason this has had such a furious reaction from the left is because there is a recognisable grain of truth in what he's saying. Lots of people in food poverty spend far, far too much money on fast food. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to McDonald's this year or any other fast food place. Go to any council estate and take a look at their spending, I can guarantee the average will be far higher than it is in a leafy suburb.
Wait til your offspring arrives. You will find McDonalds an amazingly useful place to feed and quieten the kid/s, I guarantee
And this is an important point. A hard pressed single mum hasn’t got time or energy to whip up home made pasta with arrabiata sauce and a green salad, her kids probably wouldn’t eat it anyway. So, Maccie D’s it is. Again. I can empathise
I can empathise but I have never taken my kids to McDonald's.
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
An Italian colleague was lamenting Londoners calling themselves "foodies" recently, suggesting that in Italy it's just normal life. I think she's right. What we'd call a "foodie" in the UK is simply living normally in lots of European countries (notable exceptions include Germany and the Netherlands which also have the same shit food as the UK).
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
We have amazing produce in the UK, eg possibly the best seafood in the world, so that doesn’t explain it. We can’t grow oranges but English strawberries are superb etc etc
I’ve always understood it as the fault of the Industrial Revolution which disconnected people from rural life and the source of all their food, and of course that happened first in the UK, and in a bigger way in the UK than almost anywhere else
And British food is vastly better now (and much better than Germany or the Netherlands). TV cooking shows are a major reason for this. Maybe THE reason
I just bought these today for my wife. About £12 for the box, and the supermarket can’t get enough of them.
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
An Italian colleague was lamenting Londoners calling themselves "foodies" recently, suggesting that in Italy it's just normal life. I think she's right. What we'd call a "foodie" in the UK is simply living normally in lots of European countries (notable exceptions include Germany and the Netherlands which also have the same shit food as the UK).
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
We have amazing produce in the UK, eg possibly the best seafood in the world, so that doesn’t explain it. We can’t grow oranges but English strawberries are superb etc etc
I’ve always understood it as the fault of the Industrial Revolution which disconnected people from rural life and the source of all their food, and of course that happened first in the UK, and in a bigger way in the UK than almost anywhere else
And British food is vastly better now (and much better than Germany or the Netherlands). TV cooking shows are a major reason for this. Maybe THE reason
I think it is largely because southern Europe evolved more flavoursome food related to some specific foodstuffs that could be grown in great quantities and had greater taste (eg olives and garlic, tomatoes), whereas northern Europe was just focussed on food as a fuel that kept you warm through cold winters.
Yet so much of this came from the New World: tomatoes, potatoes, chilis (I always wonder what the fuck the Thais ate before the Portuguese brought over chilis and tomatoes)
So it must be relatively recent, in the grand scheme of history - from the late 18th century on? But there is some truth in what you say
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
An Italian colleague was lamenting Londoners calling themselves "foodies" recently, suggesting that in Italy it's just normal life. I think she's right. What we'd call a "foodie" in the UK is simply living normally in lots of European countries (notable exceptions include Germany and the Netherlands which also have the same shit food as the UK).
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
We have amazing produce in the UK, eg possibly the best seafood in the world, so that doesn’t explain it. We can’t grow oranges but English strawberries are superb etc etc
I’ve always understood it as the fault of the Industrial Revolution which disconnected people from rural life and the source of all their food, and of course that happened first in the UK, and in a bigger way in the UK than almost anywhere else
And British food is vastly better now (and much better than Germany or the Netherlands). TV cooking shows are a major reason for this. Maybe THE reason
I feel like somewhere between the Industrial Revolution to the hang ups from WW2 rationing and the homogenisation of species/supermarket offerings, the country forgot what culinary gifts it was blessed with. We now have world class meat produce too, not just sea food, and some fabulous traditional ways of seasoning it. Same for fruit.
The war is the biggest single recipient of blame for destroying the British diet. Powdered eggs. Everything tinned. Horrendous food trends that linger to this day. Look at the photos of the winning England team in 1966 - the teeth (or lack of). That's a legacy of the WW2 diet.
Its more the post war diet isn't it? didn't rationing last for years after the end of hostilities?
Mr. 1983/Mr. Sandpit, occasionally get gypsies around here. Last time they occupied part of a farmer's field adjacent to the primary school and left behind a charming arrangement of litter and human excrement.
Since then, the fencing off has been beefed up to try and stop it recurring.
A farmer I knew did the boulder thing. Interestingly, he got attacked by incomers - who seemed to think that travellers had a right to camp on the paddock (privately owned) he kept his horses on.
Did he privately own the land he dumped the boulders on? If so, fine. If not, it's fly-tipping.
Edit. Lee Anderson. Not your farmer.
That's about 2 miles from where I live.
It was an illegal encampment on I think a car park, which had returned for the second time, after breaking through an earth bank installed after the first eviction.
County Council went through the legalities to clear it again, and then left the entrance open whilst they went through the process of creating a lockable barrier.
Anderson blocked it himself after waiting 4 weeks for NCC.
At this point his party on the Council started a disciplinary. There was also a community protection notice at this stage.
After his rocks were removed the travellers came back for a third time, having smashed their way through the new barrier.
And yes, Ashfield does have its legally required quota of official sites.
38 per cent Firsts, up from a mere 16 per cent under Labour.
What do people expect when you pay so much for degrees. If you've spent (or more accurately, will spend) on your degree then you don't expect to come out with a 3rd. There must be a lot of pressure to give good degrees as a result. When people weren't paying themselves to go to University there wasn't an expectation that you would get given a good grade but it would depend on the level of achievement. One of the reasons I am in favour of fewer people going to University. Although, I think there should be far more vocational options to go alongside it!
It is partly that, and partly that students are far more professional than they used to be. Better learning techniques, more focus on the course. I reckon I could have got a First if I'd known then what I know now. University is no longer just a finishing school for poshos reliving Brideshead.
Oh, and a fair spoonful of grade inflation.
Also impressed by more focus on things useful to working life. Eg the science students I see are working on things like public interpretation, presentation of work in spoken presentations, and so on.
On food banks. Those most in favour of them are, of course, those who are fortunate enough never to have to use them.
As for those who do use them. Well, they are of course very grateful that they exist. But many people who use them find it deeply humiliating to do so; using them is dehumanising, though not as much as begging.
I'm not persuaded that having world-beating food banks is something that we, as one of the richest countries in the world, should be particularly proud of. Rather, I see it as a badge of shame that poor people have to receive charity while so many of our citizens find that food constitutes a very small proportion of their outgoings. But I guess that's why I'm a leftie.
You must be livid that they started under Labour. Can you list the european countries from example which do not have food banks? In fact they are supported by the EU.
EU food banks good. UK food banks bad.
To you and Felix - I never mentioned the EU. Food banks are bad wherever they are in the 'rich' world - UK, EU and USA. I didn't make the distinction that is in your imagination. Not everything's to do with fucking Brexit, you know.
Food banks are brilliant, the embodiment of the Big Society at work. Why does so much of the modern left have such a problem with local charities helping out the disadvantaged in society?
(Sorry, but if there was a Labour government, food banks would be seen as brilliant by those who currently denounce them).
Not by me they wouldn't. If food bank usage increased under a Labour government I'd be furious.
Because they would be competing with the Labour party as a source of handouts?
Pathetic. No, because it would be evidence that Labour hadn't done enough to reduce the gross inequalities of income and life chances that prevail in this country.
No, its not.
Providing a safety net to support people is doing something to reduce the gross inequalities of chances. That's what Labour are supposed to believe in.
The fact that a safety net of charity replaced the predatory loan sharks is something that should be supported, not sneered at.
2014 is the year that is typically quoted as the year food bank use exploded, which is claimed to be a failure rather than a success and why it was made an issue in the 2015 election.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/54ebb03bed915d0cf7000014/Payday_investigation_Final_report.pdf In 2014 the market contracted, and both payday lending revenue and the volume of new loans issued fell year on year by around 27% for the period January to September 2014. Four of the 11 major lenders identified at the start of our investigation, as well as some smaller ones, decided to stop issuing payday loans during 2014.
A 27% fall in volume of new loans issued and a 54% fall in problems reported to Citizens Advice is proof that the loanshark industry took a major blow in the same year as the usage of food banks exploded.
Prior to then, people didn't have access to foodbanks so they were forced to turn to loan sharks. This is something to be celebrated that they exist now and that people are turning to food banks instead of loan sharks is unambiguously, unequivocally, positively a great thing.
I can't wrap my head around how anyone could sneer or consider a safety net to be a bad thing?
I can't see food banks any where in the CAB article, they cite:
New evidence from the national charity reveals a steady decline in payday loan problems from April 2014 as new regulations were introduced by the Financial Conduct Authority and the regulator took enforcement action against lenders. It also shows a further drop when the Government introduced the cap on payday loans on 2 January 2015.
Nothing to do with food but regulation of an industry filled with shysters.
There's no mention of food banks in the government report either.
You're conflating the two issues.
Your argument is bollocks.
Its not bollocks. Desperate people were previously forced to go to loan sharks as the food bank infrastructure wasn't there.
From 2014, following deregulation of the charities by David Cameron as part of his Big Society reforms, the infrastructure was there and people were able to go there instead.
Usage of food banks went up, usage of loan sharks went down.
Which would you rather have, the 2014 onwards situation of food banks busy, but loan sharks down, or the 2013 and prior situation of food banks not in use (as the infrastructure wasn't there), but loan sharks busy?
You've invented the correlation.
Yes they both happened in 2014. None of your citations claim food banks had any effect on pay day lending, do they?
(You forget its much harder to falsely cite long articles as ctrl-f exists.)
Looking at decade long lower quartile wage stagnation might be more relevant.
Looking forward to the fluffers of the right demanding that this be put into context as they will inevitably do. There will always be a place for Mr Anderson in Douglas Ross's SCons if he feels he has to move on again.
LOL. Isn't reaching for Ash Sarkar a bit far fetched?
Has she ever said *anything* that did not do violence to its context?
On food banks. Those most in favour of them are, of course, those who are fortunate enough never to have to use them.
As for those who do use them. Well, they are of course very grateful that they exist. But many people who use them find it deeply humiliating to do so; using them is dehumanising, though not as much as begging.
I'm not persuaded that having world-beating food banks is something that we, as one of the richest countries in the world, should be particularly proud of. Rather, I see it as a badge of shame that poor people have to receive charity while so many of our citizens find that food constitutes a very small proportion of their outgoings. But I guess that's why I'm a leftie.
You must be livid that they started under Labour. Can you list the european countries from example which do not have food banks? In fact they are supported by the EU.
EU food banks good. UK food banks bad.
To you and Felix - I never mentioned the EU. Food banks are bad wherever they are in the 'rich' world - UK, EU and USA. I didn't make the distinction that is in your imagination. Not everything's to do with fucking Brexit, you know.
Food banks are brilliant, the embodiment of the Big Society at work. Why does so much of the modern left have such a problem with local charities helping out the disadvantaged in society?
(Sorry, but if there was a Labour government, food banks would be seen as brilliant by those who currently denounce them).
Not by me they wouldn't. If food bank usage increased under a Labour government I'd be furious.
Because they would be competing with the Labour party as a source of handouts?
Pathetic. No, because it would be evidence that Labour hadn't done enough to reduce the gross inequalities of income and life chances that prevail in this country.
No, its not.
Providing a safety net to support people is doing something to reduce the gross inequalities of chances. That's what Labour are supposed to believe in.
The fact that a safety net of charity replaced the predatory loan sharks is something that should be supported, not sneered at.
2014 is the year that is typically quoted as the year food bank use exploded, which is claimed to be a failure rather than a success and why it was made an issue in the 2015 election.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/54ebb03bed915d0cf7000014/Payday_investigation_Final_report.pdf In 2014 the market contracted, and both payday lending revenue and the volume of new loans issued fell year on year by around 27% for the period January to September 2014. Four of the 11 major lenders identified at the start of our investigation, as well as some smaller ones, decided to stop issuing payday loans during 2014.
A 27% fall in volume of new loans issued and a 54% fall in problems reported to Citizens Advice is proof that the loanshark industry took a major blow in the same year as the usage of food banks exploded.
Prior to then, people didn't have access to foodbanks so they were forced to turn to loan sharks. This is something to be celebrated that they exist now and that people are turning to food banks instead of loan sharks is unambiguously, unequivocally, positively a great thing.
I can't wrap my head around how anyone could sneer or consider a safety net to be a bad thing?
I can't see food banks any where in the CAB article, they cite:
New evidence from the national charity reveals a steady decline in payday loan problems from April 2014 as new regulations were introduced by the Financial Conduct Authority and the regulator took enforcement action against lenders. It also shows a further drop when the Government introduced the cap on payday loans on 2 January 2015.
Nothing to do with food but regulation of an industry filled with shysters.
There's no mention of food banks in the government report either.
You're conflating the two issues.
Your argument is bollocks.
Its not bollocks. Desperate people were previously forced to go to loan sharks as the food bank infrastructure wasn't there.
From 2014, following deregulation of the charities by David Cameron as part of his Big Society reforms, the infrastructure was there and people were able to go there instead.
Usage of food banks went up, usage of loan sharks went down.
Which would you rather have, the 2014 onwards situation of food banks busy, but loan sharks down, or the 2013 and prior situation of food banks not in use (as the infrastructure wasn't there), but loan sharks busy?
You've invented the correlation.
Yes they both happened in 2014. None of your citations claim food banks had any effect on pay day lending, do they?
(You forget its much harder to falsely cite long articles as ctrl-f exists.)
Looking at decade long lower quartile wage stagnation might be more relevant.
No the false correlation is that of yourself and others claiming that food bank usage is symptomatic of a problem.
Food bank usage is symptomatic of big society charities providing a safety net. Safety nets are a good thing.
I say that loan shark usage is symptomatic of a problem, not safety nets.
Problem is he's doubling down on his nonsense and obscuring any legitimate points he's trying to make. "Use is exaggerated". I've worked in a food bank. We kept scrupulous records. The Trussell Trust requires referrals. He's implying widespread fraud. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Yes he is playing politics with it all, as are much of the left on the opposite side in response.
The better response from Labour would be along the lines of:
We do not agree with how you have framed it but thanks for raising the importance of better food and personal finance education. What funding is the government willing to allocate to address this nationally?
Nah, it's easier for them to say "look evul torys, vote for us" despite this same tactic failing in 2015.
The reason this has had such a furious reaction from the left is because there is a recognisable grain of truth in what he's saying. Lots of people in food poverty spend far, far too much money on fast food. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to McDonald's this year or any other fast food place. Go to any council estate and take a look at their spending, I can guarantee the average will be far higher than it is in a leafy suburb.
Wait til your offspring arrives. You will find McDonalds an amazingly useful place to feed and quieten the kid/s, I guarantee
And this is an important point. A hard pressed single mum hasn’t got time or energy to whip up home made pasta with arrabiata sauce and a green salad, her kids probably wouldn’t eat it anyway. So, Maccie D’s it is. Again. I can empathise
I can empathise but I have never taken my kids to McDonald's.
Nothing wrong with an occasional treat. If it were all the time then it can regularly add up - both in money and bad habits!
We for the most part make fresh food at home. Occasionally dig out the frozen fish fingers or chicken nuggets when in a rush. It is still possible to make some reasonably good meals for kids without spending much:
- Pasta with sauce (either pre-bought or made up with fresh toms) - Beans on toast with cheese - Jacket potato. Either cheese/beans again or tuna - Stir fry
I think cooking cheaply either takes time or the meals are very repetitive.
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
An Italian colleague was lamenting Londoners calling themselves "foodies" recently, suggesting that in Italy it's just normal life. I think she's right. What we'd call a "foodie" in the UK is simply living normally in lots of European countries (notable exceptions include Germany and the Netherlands which also have the same shit food as the UK).
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
We have amazing produce in the UK, eg possibly the best seafood in the world, so that doesn’t explain it. We can’t grow oranges but English strawberries are superb etc etc
I’ve always understood it as the fault of the Industrial Revolution which disconnected people from rural life and the source of all their food, and of course that happened first in the UK, and in a bigger way in the UK than almost anywhere else
And British food is vastly better now (and much better than Germany or the Netherlands). TV cooking shows are a major reason for this. Maybe THE reason
I feel like somewhere between the Industrial Revolution to the hang ups from WW2 rationing and the homogenisation of species/supermarket offerings, the country forgot what culinary gifts it was blessed with. We now have world class meat produce too, not just sea food, and some fabulous traditional ways of seasoning it. Same for fruit.
The war is the biggest single recipient of blame for destroying the British diet. Powdered eggs. Everything tinned. Horrendous food trends that linger to this day. Look at the photos of the winning England team in 1966 - the teeth (or lack of). That's a legacy of the WW2 diet.
The war greatly improved health for a lot of people who ate better than otherwise. Brown bread, vitamins, British Restaurants, and so on. Perhaps more the relapse into peace. I don't think cooking changed greatly from before the war.
No, I'm afraid that's simply a myth, espoused by those who back low fat and other discredited diet methodologies. Have you seen the allowances for butter, milk and cheese in the rations? Those nutrient dense foods cannot be replaced by munching on a home grown carrot, laudible though the effort is. Sugar rationing was probably the only beneficial part of it.
Where Lee Anderson is correct is that a shocking amount of people in this country cannot cook and have no discernible interest in food. But that is certainly not limited to the poor.
Take PB – we have fully grown professional men on here who earn £70k+++ who cannot even find their way around a saucepan, and luxuriate in eating ready meals and assorted other shite in service stations, after starting their day with coffee-flavoured dust and hot water (job done!).
We also have the quasi-hair-shirted PB Northerners who balk at spending even £40 a head in a restaurant, clearly having never done even the most rudimentary analysis of where £40 a head in a good restaurant goes.
Given such a large proportion of the English population continues to refuse to spend a reasonable proportion of its income on what it puts inside its own bodies, one can perhaps forgive (to some extent) the hackneyed stereotype held of us by our continental cousins that we are a nation of potato-faced barbarians.
An Italian colleague was lamenting Londoners calling themselves "foodies" recently, suggesting that in Italy it's just normal life. I think she's right. What we'd call a "foodie" in the UK is simply living normally in lots of European countries (notable exceptions include Germany and the Netherlands which also have the same shit food as the UK).
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
We have amazing produce in the UK, eg possibly the best seafood in the world, so that doesn’t explain it. We can’t grow oranges but English strawberries are superb etc etc
I’ve always understood it as the fault of the Industrial Revolution which disconnected people from rural life and the source of all their food, and of course that happened first in the UK, and in a bigger way in the UK than almost anywhere else
And British food is vastly better now (and much better than Germany or the Netherlands). TV cooking shows are a major reason for this. Maybe THE reason
I completely agree that TV shows have really helped get people engaged. The best seem to be the TV competitions where people see that Everyday Joes and Ordinary Janes (and Ed Balls!) can be great cooks and indeed win prizes.
They also teach great techniques almost by osmosis.
Yes, I had this epiphany during an Anthony Bourdain episode when he goes to Melbourne and eats great food everywhere and he asks them “What happened, you guys used to be known for pie floaters and fish and chips”? And the chef comes back without batting an eyelid: “Masterchef”
I immediately realised this is what has happened in Britain, too. We did, after all, invent Masterchef (my agent represents the guy who devised the format, he is now obscenely rich). if you watch three series of Masterchef that’s a pretty good cookery course you are receiving, without even realising
Add in Jamie and Delia and the Hairy Bikers and the rest, and there is the answer to our much improved cuisine. Plus immigration and more money. That helps, too
I really enjoy Raymond Blanc, his appreciation for British produce is more than any TV chef and his recipes are deceptively simple, I've done plenty of them at home and not been left with a pile of washing up or 97g of some random ingredient I'll never use again. His latest book is excellent and the polar opposite of someone like Ottolenghi who uses all sorts of random stuff that even I struggle to find and will never use again.
Comments
"Use is exaggerated".
I've worked in a food bank. We kept scrupulous records. We know exactly how many people come to visit.The Trussell Trust requires written referrals.
He's implying widespread fraud.
Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
That’s excellent. And exactly right. A kind of nameless, formless, distant dread. The world seems like it is returning to normal, and yet - the darkness at the edge of town… the booms of faraway cannon, maybe getting nearer
Auden caught the mood in his quintessential poem of the 1930s. He even mentions the flu in the last two genius stanzas
The Fall of Rome
W H Auden
The piers are pummelled by the waves;
In a lonely field the rain
Lashes an abandoned train;
Outlaws fill the mountain caves.
Fantastic grow the evening gowns;
Agents of the Fisc pursue
Absconding tax-defaulters through
The sewers of provincial towns.
Private rites of magic send
The temple prostitutes to sleep;
All the literati keep
An imaginary friend.
Cerebrotonic Cato may
Extol the Ancient Disciplines,
But the muscle-bound Marines
Mutiny for food and pay.
Caesar's double-bed is warm
As an unimportant clerk
Writes I DO NOT LIKE MY WORK
On a pink official form.
Unendowed with wealth or pity,
Little birds with scarlet legs,
Sitting on their speckled eggs,
Eye each flu-infected city.
Altogether elsewhere, vast
Herds of reindeer move across
Miles and miles of golden moss,
Silently and very fast.
The better response from Labour would be along the lines of:
We do not agree with how you have framed it but thanks for raising the importance of better food and personal finance education. What funding is the government willing to allocate to address this nationally?
If so, fine.
If not, it's fly-tipping.
Edit. Lee Anderson. Not your farmer.
People will always fall on hard times, having a safety net to provide support where it is required is a fantastic thing and not a bad thing.
Prior to the rise of food banks, we didn't have utopia, we had loan sharks. The rise in food banks led to a corresponding fall in loan sharks.
Would you rather instead of charity, we go back to people being forced to use Wonga etc to put food on the table? I for one, would not.
(Sorry, but if there was a Labour government, food banks would be seen as brilliant by those who currently denounce them).
Being a humorous sort, he's had them rough carved into mini stonehenge-like blocks - planted in the ground. You could walk a horse though and that was it.
Anyway, I hope you give due credit to Stella Creasy for her magnificent work as the prime mover in clipping the wings of Wonga and others.
I defended us on the basis that the UK simply hasn't got a food culture the same as Italy, Spain or France because we have never been able to grow the same quality fruit and veg (lack of sunshine) which means our food is simply lacking in flavour. If you look at traditional British food it is basically warm, beige coloured and slightly salty. It's not easy to build a food culture out of that.
Even with raising low pay and increasing benefits there always have been and always will be people falling on hard times.
It doesn't matter how much some people earn or get on benefits, there are always some people who live from pay cheque to pay cheque and then when a 'rainy day' happens they're in crisis.
If someone is fine from month to month but then has a particularly bad month - their car breaks down, needs expensive repairs etc - would you rather they be forced to go to a loan shark, or there is a charity available that can say "we can help you"?
I for one would always celebrate the latter and it is something to be proud of that charity is there and should never be considered "bad wherever they are".
The reason this has had such a furious reaction from the left is because there is a recognisable grain of truth in what he's saying. Lots of people in food poverty spend far, far too much money on fast food. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to McDonald's this year or any other fast food place. Go to any council estate and take a look at their spending, I can guarantee the average will be far higher than it is in a leafy suburb.
That is literally existential. It could destroy human civilisation as we know it
This sense of The End of Rome is one reason I am getting a lot of traveling done now. Just in case the world takes an even darker turn. I’m not convinced it will, not like I was in Early Covid, but i do note the shadow at the edge of the restless dream. And so: just in case
Providing a safety net to support people is doing something to reduce the gross inequalities of chances. That's what Labour are supposed to believe in.
The fact that a safety net of charity replaced the predatory loan sharks is something that should be supported, not sneered at.
They'd still have enough to make it messy of course
And this is an important point. A hard pressed single mum hasn’t got time or energy to whip up home made pasta with arrabiata sauce and a green salad, her kids probably wouldn’t eat it anyway. So, Maccie D’s it is. Again. I can empathise
if you believe the left's answer then the solution to helping the poor is to increase benefits and look at measures to reduce inequality. If you believe the right's answer then the solution is to help the poor make better life choices, which is in part where Anderson is coming from.
if you look at international aid campaigns then you often hear something like this "give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime". The problem is our benefits system just gives people the fish.
There's plenty of food culture in the UK. It has been deprecated by cheap-is-better.
The obesity epidemic is an artefact of this - our culture and society is not well adapted for a situation where too many calories is the problem.
First congressional UFO hearing in 50 years next Tuesday. This Republican bible has published some intriguingly specific suggested questions:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/patriotism-unity/ufos-go-to-congress-5-questions-which-need-answering
We've been growing great tomatoes in England for decades, and tomatoes are the staple of all mediterranean cuisine. Yet I still – even now –meet otherwise normal English adults who say "I don't like tomatoes".
My answer is always the same: "yes you do." I slice up some good ripe tomatoes at room temperature, soak them in good XV olive oil and rock salt, then serve them with buffalo mozzarella and fresh basil.
Then they suddenly like tomatoes.
Funny old world.
"Good on him" would be a common response.
Not that many traveller encampments in Islington, I suspect.
I’ve always understood it as the fault of the Industrial Revolution which disconnected people from rural life and the source of all their food, and of course that happened first in the UK, and in a bigger way in the UK than almost anywhere else
And British food is vastly better now (and much better than Germany or the Netherlands). TV cooking shows are a major reason for this. Maybe THE reason
But most can't cook.
We're back to education again.
It's inter-generational.
https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1524737101941649415
2014 is the year that is typically quoted as the year food bank use exploded, which is claimed to be a failure rather than a success and why it was made an issue in the 2015 election.
Citizens Advice the same year saw a 54% fall in people having problems with payday loans: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/about-us/about-us1/media/press-releases/payday-loan-problems-halved-since-cap-introduced/
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/54ebb03bed915d0cf7000014/Payday_investigation_Final_report.pdf
In 2014 the market contracted, and both payday lending revenue
and the volume of new loans issued fell year on year by around 27% for the
period January to September 2014. Four of the 11 major lenders identified at
the start of our investigation, as well as some smaller ones, decided to stop
issuing payday loans during 2014.
A 27% fall in volume of new loans issued and a 54% fall in problems reported to Citizens Advice is proof that the loanshark industry took a major blow in the same year as the usage of food banks exploded.
Prior to then, people didn't have access to foodbanks so they were forced to turn to loan sharks. This is something to be celebrated that they exist now and that people are turning to food banks instead of loan sharks is unambiguously, unequivocally, positively a great thing.
I can't wrap my head around how anyone could sneer or consider a safety net to be a bad thing?
And Putin is old, and sickly, and unstable, and the world is in a right old state, coming out of a plague. And he has just launched a calamitous war
A perilous moment
Also on McDonald's I fully get what you're saying and I'm sure when my own kid is 4 years old and screaming at me because it doesn't want to eat broccoli for the 7000th time that week McDonald's will look like a good option. That doesn't make it a good option.
Teach a man to fish and he'll bugger off at the crack of dawn and not bother you for the rest of the day
But reactions are just as bad on the right as the left. We do not listen and assume the worst of each other. We have little interest in where a pragmatic consensus middle ground can lie. We want to win and the others to lose.
I fail to see how our politics or government delivery gets much better in the next decade and this particular story explains why.
Rick Stein tells a great story about visiting a Breton oyster farm and encountering a gang of seven-year-old French schoolchildren enthusiastically feasting on various varieties of bivalves, and thinking that this would never happen in England.
We indoctrinate our children into favouring beige salty stuff because we have this cultural idea that "children don't like food". See children's menus in English restaurants – mostly shite. I have seen even otherwise wise, urbane, metroey friends do exactly this.
Give your children home-cooked, garlicky food from five months old and they will eat well all their lives in most cases.
I hear you on Single Mums but there ARE an awful lot of them, and it ain’t easy. Like everyone else on here I cannot understand why basic cookery is not taught in every school to the age of 16, along with personal banking and financial management, now to read a map, where Poland is, how to book a plane ticket, how British politics works, how to replace a lightbulb, painting and decorating, really really simple but important life skills that too many people just don’t have
It would make a good Labour education policy and it would be popular across the board
(But, seriously, good for you. It looks a really nice treat.)
That we can enjoy summer fruits all year round now is a modern development, its hardly surprising historical cuisines weren't adapted to that.
He wasn't eating them. Instinctively, I whacked them in a frying pan with some oil, pinch of salt, fresh cherry tomatoes and garlic and mashed them up to see what would happen.
He munched the lot.
I never bought tinned "children's food" ever again.
New evidence from the national charity reveals a steady decline in payday loan problems from April 2014 as new regulations were introduced by the Financial Conduct Authority and the regulator took enforcement action against lenders. It also shows a further drop when the Government introduced the cap on payday loans on 2 January 2015.
Nothing to do with food but regulation of an industry filled with shysters.
There's no mention of food banks in the government report either.
You're conflating the two issues.
Your argument is bollocks.
I completely agree that TV shows have really helped get people engaged. The best seem to be the TV competitions where people see that Everyday Joes and Ordinary Janes (and Ed Balls!) can be great cooks and indeed win prizes.
They also teach great techniques almost by osmosis.
The east end of Glasgow probably has the highest concentration of travelling folk in Scotland if not the UK, mainly of the showpeople & fairground variety. They keep themselves to themselves and are suspicious of authority but aren't any detriment to the wider community afaics. As ever there is plenty of variety within a loose definition of what is a group of people.
Edit: 'Housing an estimated 80% of all showfamilies Glasgow is believed to have the largest concentration of Showmen quarters in Europe, centred mostly in Shettleston, Whiteinch and Carntyne.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gypsy_and_Traveller_groups
Building up a food culture takes a century, not decades. If you look at what British cuisine was like in the late 1800s and early 1900s that is what has fed into today's lack of appreciation for food and a fast food culture. If one's own food is not very good then that passes down generations who become less and less bothered by home cooking and eating properly. It's only since the 80s and the explosion in Empire cuisines (Indian, Hong Kong/Cantonese and West Indian mainly) that British food culture has had a recovery and only in the last 10-20 years has that revolution extended to outside of big cities and into home cooking.
Comedy Dave also makes the error by implying the European public won't vote for the UK because of Brexit (by stating that the UK is universally unpopular) when many countries in Eurovision are outside of the EU. The European public don't vote for the UK because the songs we send are (usually) garbage.
From 2014, following deregulation of the charities by David Cameron as part of his Big Society reforms, the infrastructure was there and people were able to go there instead.
Usage of food banks went up, usage of loan sharks went down.
Which would you rather have, the 2014 onwards situation of food banks busy, but loan sharks down, or the 2013 and prior situation of food banks not in use (as the infrastructure wasn't there), but loan sharks busy?
It's inherited. And probably traceable back to rationing.
Most of the people I know eat much better and more varied than their parents do or did. But it's a long, slow process.
I agree on the utterly bizarre idea kids won't eat. They eat what they are given, with likes and dislikes just like adults.
If you tell them they shouldn't like broccoli they won't. Both sets of my kids grandparents tried that trick.
Good luck with the next few weeks by the way – I saw your posts a few days go. Best wishes to you and Mrs PB.
Oh, and a fair spoonful of grade inflation.
No good deed goes unpunished.
I immediately realised this is what has happened in Britain, too. We did, after all, invent Masterchef (my agent represents the guy who devised the format, he is now obscenely rich). if you watch three series of Masterchef that’s a pretty good cookery course you are receiving, without even realising
Add in Jamie and Delia and the Hairy Bikers and the rest, and there is the answer to our much improved cuisine. Plus immigration and more money. That helps, too
It's too easy, all this. I need stretching. Will pop back later.
I think having more and more people relying on charity instead of loan sharks is a very, very, very good thing.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/11/church-of-england-to-pump-36bn-into-parishes-and-fund-more-social-action
There is a British food culture, but a lot of it is about watching proper cooking on telly, while awaiting a lukewarm takeaway from Deliveroo.
Yet so much of this came from the New World: tomatoes, potatoes, chilis (I always wonder what the fuck the Thais ate before the Portuguese brought over chilis and tomatoes)
So it must be relatively recent, in the grand scheme of history - from the late 18th century on? But there is some truth in what you say
It was an illegal encampment on I think a car park, which had returned for the second time, after breaking through an earth bank installed after the first eviction.
County Council went through the legalities to clear it again, and then left the entrance open whilst they went through the process of creating a lockable barrier.
Anderson blocked it himself after waiting 4 weeks for NCC.
At this point his party on the Council started a disciplinary. There was also a community protection notice at this stage.
After his rocks were removed the travellers came back for a third time, having smashed their way through the new barrier.
And yes, Ashfield does have its legally required quota of official sites.
https://www.chad.co.uk/news/travellers-leave-huthwaite-allotment-site-three-days-after-breaking-through-barrier-set-illegal-camp-268407
Yes they both happened in 2014. None of your citations claim food banks had any effect on pay day lending, do they?
(You forget its much harder to falsely cite long articles as ctrl-f exists.)
Looking at decade long lower quartile wage stagnation might be more relevant.
Has she ever said *anything* that did not do violence to its context?
Food bank usage is symptomatic of big society charities providing a safety net. Safety nets are a good thing.
I say that loan shark usage is symptomatic of a problem, not safety nets.
We for the most part make fresh food at home. Occasionally dig out the frozen fish fingers or chicken nuggets when in a rush. It is still possible to make some reasonably good meals for kids without spending much:
- Pasta with sauce (either pre-bought or made up with fresh toms)
- Beans on toast with cheese
- Jacket potato. Either cheese/beans again or tuna
- Stir fry
I think cooking cheaply either takes time or the meals are very repetitive.