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Is the FT right about Beergate giving Starmer a boost? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited May 15 in General
imageIs the FT right about Beergate giving Starmer a boost? – politicalbetting.com

Perhaps the best analysis is in the Financial Times which notes under the heading – Keir Starmer’s gamble could be the making of him.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 5,796
    edited May 10
    I said that about Starmer on one of yesterday's threads and was told "no"

    So that is that sorted ... :D

    And while I remember - "First!" :D:D
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 40,136
    Perhaps he should have gone the whole John Major and told the Corbynistas to put up or shut up.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZifWqG2413U
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 1,582

    I said that about Starmer on one of yesterday's threads and was told "no"

    So that is that sorted ... :D

    And while I remember - "First!" :D:D

    The FT is rarely right… they have a very specific worldview
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 5,796

    I said that about Starmer on one of yesterday's threads and was told "no"

    So that is that sorted ... :D

    And while I remember - "First!" :D:D

    The FT is rarely right… they have a very specific worldview
    So do the Mail, the Express, the Grauniad, the Sun, etc
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 2,713
    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313
    edited May 10
    - “Is the FT right about Beergate giving Starmer a boost?”

    Yesterday’s Redfield & Wilton poll suggests that the FT might be wrong. In an otherwise good finding for Labour (headline VI 39%), there is a worrying detail: an appalling drop in motivation among 2019 Labour voters.

    Certain to Vote (5/5) - by 2019 GE vote

    SNP 65%
    Con 62%
    LD 57%
    Lab 46%
    DNV 12%

    That is a big reversal in voter motivation for Labour: they are usually in a good 2nd place in these types of questions, behind the SNP.

    (Redfield & Wilton Strategies; 8 May; 2,000)

    (On the other hand, R&W failed to find a single respondent saying they were planning on voting SLD. Very odd, considering that Alex Cole-Hamilton’s team did very well on Thursday. Subsamples, subsamples…)
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313
    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 13,166

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313

    Perhaps he should have gone the whole John Major and told the Corbynistas to put up or shut up.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZifWqG2413U

    Please note that John Major’s “bastards” won in the end. Only took 2 decades. So, England will have a Communist government in approx 2042? (Just as Scotland elects her first-ever centre-right prime minister.)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 13,166
    edited May 10

    - “Is the FT right about Beergate giving Starmer a boost?”

    Yesterday’s Redfield & Wilton poll suggests that the FT might be wrong. In an otherwise good finding for Labour (headline VI 39%), there is a worrying detail: an appalling drop in motivation among 2019 Labour voters.

    Certain to Vote (5/5) - by 2019 GE vote

    SNP 65%
    Con 62%
    LD 57%
    Lab 46%
    DNV 12%

    That is a big reversal in voter motivation for Labour: they are usually in a good 2nd place in these types of questions, behind the SNP.

    (Redfield & Wilton Strategies; 8 May; 2,000)

    (On the other hand, R&W failed to find a single respondent saying they were planning on voting SLD. Very odd, considering that Alex Cole-Hamilton’s team did very well on Thursday. Subsamples, subsamples…)

    The trouble with Starmer's high-risk strategy is that he is not denying that curry was washed down with beer, merely that if you (and the Durham police) squint hard enough, this was within the letter of the law. The public might be judging against the spirit of the guidelines.

    On the drop in motivation, the LibDems and Greens had a better night than Labour. This should worry Starmer because it had been predicted that Starmer's determinedly non-committal centrism risked driving voters from red to yellow and green, which does seem to be what happened on Thursday.
  • pingping Posts: 2,143
    Failed wordle, for the first time ever.

    Boo!
  • pingping Posts: 2,143
    On topic - I’m not convinced it will have much of an effect, either way.
  • pingping Posts: 2,143
    edited May 10
    Michael Saunders (BoE) makes the case for faster/larger interest rate rises;

    https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/speech/2022/may/michael-saunders-speech-at-the-resolution-foundation-event
  • TazTaz Posts: 4,787
    ping said:

    Failed wordle, for the first time ever.

    Boo!

    Got it in 4 although I have failed twice. Once with Knoll, cannot remember the other.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 4,989
    edited May 10
    On topic. The FT editorial is spot on. I’m sure everyone who may have helped compose that FT editorial from our PB posts this afternoon will concur.

    However since Starmer’s announcement, media seem to have lost interest in beergate a bit, it’s slipped right off the sky page already. The “will you resign if found to have broken the rules Mr Starmer” question the Labour leader would have heard all day everyday is no more, it’s expired and ceased to be. It is a dead parrot of a question, as in any suggestion of hypocrisy related with it.

    The Tory line of attack so far appears to be “he’s bullying the police to avoid justice.”
    By that definition, insisting you won’t resign regardless what the police do is the very opposite? Refusing to resign, and instead mention your success’s and work still to do, is kindly taking all the pressure off the police - just in case they have sleepless nights that doing their job appropriately and if rather routinely in these investigations, could somehow achieve the wrong result at the end of the day?

    Have the mail and Tories no inkling how muddled and patronising to the public, not just the police, that attack line is? That patronising line alone, without any other story in politics right now, will shift the polls downward for the Tories.

    It’s becoming clear, guilt under the more relaxed indoor restrictions at time of beergate - compared to time of cakegate - rests on being proved you socialised and didn’t work during and after. It’s not even on the labour team to prove they worked, it’s down to the investigation team to hold evidence of guilt in order to prosecute. What did the Tories and their media think all along would be the outcome of this investigation they pushed hard for, Labour was never going to get away with faking evidence of work that never happened - time stamps and call logs can help the police establish work did happen during and after - so rather like a LBW review in cricket, you don’t go through with rest of the rigmarole if given that answer early on.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 43,917
    Taz said:

    ping said:

    Failed wordle, for the first time ever.

    Boo!

    Got it in 4 although I have failed twice. Once with Knoll, cannot remember the other.
    Also 4 - after a moment of inspiration.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 38,596

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Delingpole jnr is a discontented Labour left winger ?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 2,713
    edited May 10

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 16,443
    Interesting idea.

    "Emmanuel Macron calls for ‘new European political community’ – and Britain could join
    French president seeks drastic EU reform but faces backlash from Eastern European nations which fear being treated as second-class citizens" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/05/09/emmanuel-macron-calls-new-european-political-community-britain/
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 2,713
    edited May 10

    - “Is the FT right about Beergate giving Starmer a boost?”

    Yesterday’s Redfield & Wilton poll suggests that the FT might be wrong. In an otherwise good finding for Labour (headline VI 39%), there is a worrying detail: an appalling drop in motivation among 2019 Labour voters.

    Certain to Vote (5/5) - by 2019 GE vote

    Lab 46%

    (Redfield & Wilton Strategies; 8 May; 2,000)

    That "appalling drop" is, er, 2%.

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-24-april-2022/

    2% is within the margin of error.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 16,443
    ping said:

    Failed wordle, for the first time ever.

    Boo!

    Just about to try it.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 2,713
    edited May 10
    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting idea.

    "Emmanuel Macron calls for ‘new European political community’ – and Britain could join
    French president seeks drastic EU reform but faces backlash from Eastern European nations which fear being treated as second-class citizens" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/05/09/emmanuel-macron-calls-new-european-political-community-britain/

    Yeah, really interesting. Concentric circles. It's a great way of bringing countries like Ukraine in quickly and easily and Macron specifically mentioned the UK too.

    I like the idea very much.

    Brexiteers will hate it but they're yesterday's men. Old gammons who are dying out.

    This gives us a way back in some form. Except we will have lost all of our wonderful opt-outs which gave us such beneficial terms before.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 38,596
    ping said:

    Michael Saunders (BoE) makes the case for faster/larger interest rate rises;

    https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/speech/2022/may/michael-saunders-speech-at-the-resolution-foundation-event

    He's right, I think. If it were up to me, I'd raise them even quicker.

    I think the choice is likely between serious pain now, or greater, more intractable and persistent pain later.
    So we'll opt for the latter.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 13,166
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 38,596
    Heathener said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting idea.

    "Emmanuel Macron calls for ‘new European political community’ – and Britain could join
    French president seeks drastic EU reform but faces backlash from Eastern European nations which fear being treated as second-class citizens" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/05/09/emmanuel-macron-calls-new-european-political-community-britain/

    Yeah, really interesting. Concentric circles. It's a great way of bringing countries like Ukraine in quickly and easily and Macron specifically mentioned the UK too.

    I like the idea very much.
    If the UK were to join, that would alleviate the concerns of Ukraine, and it might actually work.
    If France is designing it, the terms are likely to be insufficiently attractive, though.

    Though the UK would currently be quite well placed to significantly influence any plan, if we had a government which might consider the idea.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 22,658
    If he escapes a fine — as he seems sure he will — he can show himself to be a man of principle.

    Odds on he escapes a fine on account of Durham police believing in treating people equally (unlike the Met).

    In which case, this row will rumble on.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,008
    For once, SKS has made a good political decision, or more likely, taken good political advice. Whatever happens, he'll gain from it. Even if he has to stand down, he could come back at his own choosing. Whoever becomes LOTO will always be looking over their shoulder. She'll always be a stand-in.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 18,471
    If BBC is right and Labour can prove they worked until 1AM, this has been possibly the greatest piece of politics from Labour in recent memory. Not such a bad team after all
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 2,713

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    . If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...
    .
    I'm afraid that's completely and utterly untrue.

    I would loathe this kind of bile if it came from the Left. The vile hatred which spewed from Corbyn's camp was also appalling.

    The Mail though is full of the kind of culture war ranting and raging which perpetuates violence to women, trans people, gays, immigrants, Meghan ... basically anyone who isn't a rabid white xenophobe.

    So nice try JJ but wrong.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 2,713

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Britain is the best country in the world.
    Just laughable nonsense. Do you really really believe that? Have you ever travelled abroad? Lived abroad?

    It's the sort of crap that people used to spout 50 yrs ago before they left these shores.

    On almost every measure in public opinion we are a deeply divided and unhappy nation, with a health service so on its knees that you'd better just pray you never get ill and a spiralling mental health crisis with, literally, millions on the waiting lists.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 18,471
    Student who shot Keir Starmer Beergate video is Breitbart writer’s son

    Anyone hear the story start to unravel?

    I think Keir has played this well, it seems like he’s found some energy and insight. If he’s exonerated I think we must not dismiss a Labour landslide
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 2,713

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    By the way, I wasn't commenting about Labour. I wasn't aware that they are in trouble over this. I thought that was the tories now.

    No, it's the bile which is vomited across the Mail day after day. Just vile culture war rants of the most obscene reactionary and downright nasty nature.

    It's a hideous paper that represents a nasty right wing old male demographic, who aren't without representation on this board.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 2,713
    There a hundred better countries in which to live than Britain.

    And I intend to do so.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 44,700

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    Technically, isn't the country The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 2,713
    DJL, sorry for taking a pop.

    I just get vexed by the hatred which is being spread. This was a decent country once. It certainly isn't now.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 22,658
    Heathener said:

    There a hundred better countries in which to live than Britain.

    And I intend to do so.

    Independence for Hook Heath?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 13,166

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    The Mail is not unique in its prejudices so that explains nothing. Most of the press is biased to the right, and always has been. As Number 10 said of press hostility during the Brexit campaign, "We knew this is what it must feel like to be the Labour Party during the general election."
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,632
    edited May 10

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    The cynicism/hypocrisy of the Mail has always been a thing, but flipping 180 degrees from saying partygate doesn’t matter and is a triviality to currygate being the end of the world is a new low even for them.

    The chumocracy / clique of right wing outrider journalists and proprietors blurring with the Johnson administration is also eye opening. Favours for favours. You want channel4 and a weaker BBC, no problem!
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 4,399
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Britain is the best country in the world.
    Just laughable nonsense. Do you really really believe that? Have you ever travelled abroad? Lived abroad?

    It's the sort of crap that people used to spout 50 yrs ago before they left these shores.

    On almost every measure in public opinion we are a deeply divided and unhappy nation, with a health service so on its knees that you'd better just pray you never get ill and a spiralling mental health crisis with, literally, millions on the waiting lists.
    ha but on a personal level who is more content , the person is is living in what they think is the best country on earth or the person who is living in it but wnats or intends to live in a 100 better places! Who is really the winner in their life?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 13,166
    rcs1000 said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    Technically, isn't the country The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?
    Technically, Britain is an official synonym for the United Kingdom.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 31,467

    If BBC is right and Labour can prove they worked until 1AM, this has been possibly the greatest piece of politics from Labour in recent memory. Not such a bad team after all

    Starmer having a beer and takeaway curry with the workers also normalises what can be seen as a rather fuddy duddy image. Its not a bad look to have.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 9,198
    Heathener said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting idea.

    "Emmanuel Macron calls for ‘new European political community’ – and Britain could join
    French president seeks drastic EU reform but faces backlash from Eastern European nations which fear being treated as second-class citizens" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/05/09/emmanuel-macron-calls-new-european-political-community-britain/

    Yeah, really interesting. Concentric circles. It's a great way of bringing countries like Ukraine in quickly and easily and Macron specifically mentioned the UK too.

    We've been here before with the Outer 7/Inner 6 arrangement of EFTA/EEC. The advantages to being in always outweigh the advantages to staying on the periphery over the long term.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 5,661
    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    The cynicism/hypocrisy of the Mail has always been a thing, but flipping 180 degrees from saying partygate doesn’t matter and is a triviality to currygate being the end of the world is a new low even for them.

    The chumocracy / clique of right wing outrider journalists and proprietors blurring with the Johnson administration is also eye opening. Favours for favours. You want channel4 and a weaker BBC, no problem!
    Hypocrisy has always been a thing about The Mail; it's not easy to match their obsessions with family values and decency with their other obsession with starlets flaunting their curves. At least The Sun were upfront about Page 3.

    That's now reached the ripe madness of The Mail carping about hypocrisy in a fairly hypocritical way.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 31,467
    Heathener said:

    DJL, sorry for taking a pop.

    I just get vexed by the hatred which is being spread. This was a decent country once. It certainly isn't now.

    Britain has always had a nasty streak, but what country hasn't? There is an arsehole element in every population.

    For all its many faults, Britain remains a good place to live. It's not just kin that keeps me here.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 18,471
    Just read the messages the Guardian claim to have showing work carried on until 1AM.

    They look pretty convincing to me, I am sure they will be leaking soon.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 4,399
    edited May 10
    Foxy said:

    If BBC is right and Labour can prove they worked until 1AM, this has been possibly the greatest piece of politics from Labour in recent memory. Not such a bad team after all

    Starmer having a beer and takeaway curry with the workers also normalises what can be seen as a rather fuddy duddy image. Its not a bad look to have.
    dont know my left wing anti tory daughter is not impressed by Starmer and "beergate" . Most people I know think it confirms politicians are liars , hypocrites and love making laws for others to obey especially on virtue signalling stuff like protecting the NHS . At best Starmer comes out like one of those tax avoiders who dont break the law but bend it as much as it will go .

    Did Starmer really stay in the spirit of the law ? Exactly like tax avoiders don't. Did parliament including him really frame the law wanting 30 plus people having a beer and curry? Nah ! He is the equivalent of a legal but not in the spirit of the law tax avoider by doing what he did
  • TazTaz Posts: 4,787
    edited May 10

    Student who shot Keir Starmer Beergate video is Breitbart writer’s son

    Anyone hear the story start to unravel?

    I think Keir has played this well, it seems like he’s found some energy and insight. If he’s exonerated I think we must not dismiss a Labour landslide

    The story isn’t unravelling. The video is not in doubt.

    I have said in my view there is nothing to this, I still think that, although labour have handled it poorly. Given the police here are unlikely to issue an FPN even if he is found to have breached the laws at the time starmer is on pretty safe ground.

    The local councillor who complained to the Police about this is nothing to do with Breitbart or the Far Right.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 29,334
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    . If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...
    .
    I'm afraid that's completely and utterly untrue.

    I would loathe this kind of bile if it came from the Left. The vile hatred which spewed from Corbyn's camp was also appalling.

    The Mail though is full of the kind of culture war ranting and raging which perpetuates violence to women, trans people, gays, immigrants, Meghan ... basically anyone who isn't a rabid white xenophobe.

    So nice try JJ but wrong.
    LOL. So you loathed the bile when it was Boris Johnson at No 10 doing it? I think not.

    The problem here is the law, which was poorly framed and incompetently defined. What is 'work' ? I'd argue people getting pi**ed is not 'work' - or at least it should not be.

    IMV your view on the Mail says ore about you than it does the Mail.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,535
    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Delingpole jnr is a discontented Labour left winger ?
    Well, if he hasn't rebelled against his parents' politics at university then what kind of student is he? :wink:
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,535

    Just read the messages the Guardian claim to have showing work carried on until 1AM.

    They look pretty convincing to me, I am sure they will be leaking soon.

    Via your good self, Horse? :wink:
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 29,334
    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    The cynicism/hypocrisy of the Mail has always been a thing, but flipping 180 degrees from saying partygate doesn’t matter and is a triviality to currygate being the end of the world is a new low even for them.

    The chumocracy / clique of right wing outrider journalists and proprietors blurring with the Johnson administration is also eye opening. Favours for favours. You want channel4 and a weaker BBC, no problem!
    The law should apply equally to all. An ill-defined law - one that has even led Starmer, a top lawyer, to be unsure whether he broke it - has 'got' Johnson and the Tories. It is perfectly fair to ask whether the law, not it has been used politically, should apply to the other side in a situation that looks potentially dodgy to anyone who is not utterly biased.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,008
    Most of the time, you can guess the likely headlines from the newspaper by the political slant it takes. At least, there's a range. Complaining about one in particular suggests your own bias. We all have our preferences but if you find it difficult to live with, I suspect you might find the same problem in other countries. I can't remember when I last bought the Mail, but it's all part of life's rich tapestry.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 22,658
    Piece of piss...

    Wordle 325 3/6

    ⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
    🟨🟨⬛🟨⬛
    🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 29,334
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    By the way, I wasn't commenting about Labour. I wasn't aware that they are in trouble over this. I thought that was the tories now.

    No, it's the bile which is vomited across the Mail day after day. Just vile culture war rants of the most obscene reactionary and downright nasty nature.

    It's a hideous paper that represents a nasty right wing old male demographic, who aren't without representation on this board.
    "I thought that was the tories now."

    It's virtually impossible to discern how this will end up. You *hope* the Tories are in trouble over this.

    Potential outcomes range from Boris and Rishi out of No. 10; a new GE; no-one out; Starmer out; Rayner and Starmer out, etc, etc. Or any combination of the above, along with stuff I haven't mentioned. ;)

    I've got no idea which it'll be, and I won't lose any sleep over any of them.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 29,334
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    The cynicism/hypocrisy of the Mail has always been a thing, but flipping 180 degrees from saying partygate doesn’t matter and is a triviality to currygate being the end of the world is a new low even for them.

    The chumocracy / clique of right wing outrider journalists and proprietors blurring with the Johnson administration is also eye opening. Favours for favours. You want channel4 and a weaker BBC, no problem!
    The law should apply equally to all. An ill-defined law - one that has even led Starmer, a top lawyer, to be unsure whether he broke it - has 'got' Johnson and the Tories. It is perfectly fair to ask whether the law, not it has been used politically, should apply to the other side in a situation that looks potentially dodgy to anyone who is not utterly biased.
    Nah. If the Mail had a consistent investigative campaign they would deserve respect. Instead they flipped 180 on the issue when it suited their partisan agenda. In which case, it’s just an offshoot of cchq and should be treated the same way as any propaganda.

    Meanwhile if the law was bad or draconian, the fault lies with the government.
    AIUI Starmer voted for the law. Anyone who voted for it in parliament has responsibility for the law - in the same way people who voted for the Iraq war have some responsibility for it.

    And the law has to apply equally to all sides. If one sides gets 'done' by the law, it's fine to say : "What about this thing you did?"
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 36,478

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    LOL, I did not have you down as a Heil contributor.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 4,399
    If Johnson and Starmer stay onto the next election then the Lib Dems and Greens will benefit (as they did in the local elections) .Nobody like hypocrites and the spirit of the law they both voted for was clearly not to have mass work gatherings with beer and curry .It really matters little for starmer that he may not get fined as he is judged by votes and in the Court of Public opinion .
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,558
    Having travelled quite a bit, I wouldn’t say the UK is an angrier country than anywhere else. We’re certainly divided and we have our problems, but overall we’re a pretty typical western European country, with additional soft power acquired over a long period if time.

    In fact, I’d argue we are maybe a bit too complacent, especially in the face of a government that very clearly has no regard for our established Parliamentary democracy or the rule of law. We are the country of “mustn’t grumble” and “it could be worse”. That gives chancers and rogues like the current PM all the scope they need to do their worst.

    It would be nice to think that Starmer and Rayner doing what they’ve done might shine more of a contrasting light on Downing Street, but I doubt it.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 36,478

    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    The cynicism/hypocrisy of the Mail has always been a thing, but flipping 180 degrees from saying partygate doesn’t matter and is a triviality to currygate being the end of the world is a new low even for them.

    The chumocracy / clique of right wing outrider journalists and proprietors blurring with the Johnson administration is also eye opening. Favours for favours. You want channel4 and a weaker BBC, no problem!
    The law should apply equally to all. An ill-defined law - one that has even led Starmer, a top lawyer, to be unsure whether he broke it - has 'got' Johnson and the Tories. It is perfectly fair to ask whether the law, not it has been used politically, should apply to the other side in a situation that looks potentially dodgy to anyone who is not utterly biased.
    The arses who enacted it should follow it. Only bent Tories could try to justify the shenanigans at No 10 and their constant debauchery.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 18,471
    edited May 10
    Selebian said:

    Just read the messages the Guardian claim to have showing work carried on until 1AM.

    They look pretty convincing to me, I am sure they will be leaking soon.

    Via your good self, Horse? :wink:
    Hey! Hope you are keeping well.

    I can ask my family friend but I don’t think they’ll be willing to share the documents themselves. If they even have them, I haven’t asked.

    What I will say is that Starmer would not have made this decision without having evidence prior (and that was already turned over to the Police), without being very confident.

    I probably shouldn’t say too much more - will keep you in the loop
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,632

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    The cynicism/hypocrisy of the Mail has always been a thing, but flipping 180 degrees from saying partygate doesn’t matter and is a triviality to currygate being the end of the world is a new low even for them.

    The chumocracy / clique of right wing outrider journalists and proprietors blurring with the Johnson administration is also eye opening. Favours for favours. You want channel4 and a weaker BBC, no problem!
    The law should apply equally to all. An ill-defined law - one that has even led Starmer, a top lawyer, to be unsure whether he broke it - has 'got' Johnson and the Tories. It is perfectly fair to ask whether the law, not it has been used politically, should apply to the other side in a situation that looks potentially dodgy to anyone who is not utterly biased.
    Nah. If the Mail had a consistent investigative campaign they would deserve respect. Instead they flipped 180 on the issue when it suited their partisan agenda. In which case, it’s just an offshoot of cchq and should be treated the same way as any propaganda.

    Meanwhile if the law was bad or draconian, the fault lies with the government.
    AIUI Starmer voted for the law. Anyone who voted for it in parliament has responsibility for the law - in the same way people who voted for the Iraq war have some responsibility for it.

    And the law has to apply equally to all sides. If one sides gets 'done' by the law, it's fine to say : "What about this thing you did?"
    That line is particularly weak. Offloading the governments responsibility for their laws onto opposition MPs, is just the sort of nonsense you get from the Johnson administration and its supporters. He takes responsibility for none of his errors. The buck is passed at super sonic speed. Meanwhile he takes the credit for the work of others if something goes right.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 29,334
    malcolmg said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    LOL, I did not have you down as a Heil contributor.
    I'm not. I don't read it. I subscribe to the LRB and the Economist, and don't get newspapers - or generally read their websites unless linked to on places like here. I do read links - and the Guardian features much more prominently than (say) the Mail or Telegraph.

    But the hate for the Mail from leftists is hilarious. Especially people who call it the 'Heil'.

    (It'd be interesting to write a spider to crawl over PB's archive and see which newspapers or sites are most linked to, and how it changes over time. I guess Twitter might be first, then YouTube. Perhaps the Guardian as the 'top' newspaper?)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 36,478

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Britain is the best country in the world.
    Just laughable nonsense. Do you really really believe that? Have you ever travelled abroad? Lived abroad?

    It's the sort of crap that people used to spout 50 yrs ago before they left these shores.

    On almost every measure in public opinion we are a deeply divided and unhappy nation, with a health service so on its knees that you'd better just pray you never get ill and a spiralling mental health crisis with, literally, millions on the waiting lists.
    ha but on a personal level who is more content , the person is is living in what they think is the best country on earth or the person who is living in it but wnats or intends to live in a 100 better places! Who is really the winner in their life?
    Probably better being as thick as a brick and happy living in what is certainly very far from the best country on earth rather than intelligent and realising you live in a shit hole but cannot get out.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 4,399

    Having travelled quite a bit, I wouldn’t say the UK is an angrier country than anywhere else. We’re certainly divided and we have our problems, but overall we’re a pretty typical western European country, with additional soft power acquired over a long period if time.

    In fact, I’d argue we are maybe a bit too complacent, especially in the face of a government that very clearly has no regard for our established Parliamentary democracy or the rule of law. We are the country of “mustn’t grumble” and “it could be worse”. That gives chancers and rogues like the current PM all the scope they need to do their worst.

    It would be nice to think that Starmer and Rayner doing what they’ve done might shine more of a contrasting light on Downing Street, but I doubt it.

    how is having a mass work gathering and beer and curry in anyway virtuous given what the law at the time was trying to prevent and Starmer fully supported ?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 38,142
    ping said:

    Michael Saunders (BoE) makes the case for faster/larger interest rate rises;

    https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/speech/2022/may/michael-saunders-speech-at-the-resolution-foundation-event

    It’s going to be a long ride. Put your seat belts on.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 31,467

    Foxy said:

    If BBC is right and Labour can prove they worked until 1AM, this has been possibly the greatest piece of politics from Labour in recent memory. Not such a bad team after all

    Starmer having a beer and takeaway curry with the workers also normalises what can be seen as a rather fuddy duddy image. Its not a bad look to have.
    dont know my left wing anti tory daughter is not impressed by Starmer and "beergate" . Most people I know think it confirms politicians are liars , hypocrites and love making laws for others to obey especially on virtue signalling stuff like protecting the NHS . At best Starmer comes out like one of those tax avoiders who dont break the law but bend it as much as it will go .

    Did Starmer really stay in the spirit of the law ? Exactly like tax avoiders don't. Did parliament including him really frame the law wanting 30 plus people having a beer and curry? Nah ! He is the equivalent of a legal but not in the spirit of the law tax avoider by doing what he did
    Starmer viewed though deep red goggles is as unappealing as through deep blue. We see that horshoe with BJO on here. Disaffected Corbynites hate him, and there isn't much he can do about it.

    I am no Starmer fan, and won't be voting Labour next GE. If I were in a winnable marginal then maybe. There is a sizeable LD and Green vote, and probably half will not be squeezable, and the other half willing to tactically vote.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 29,334
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    The cynicism/hypocrisy of the Mail has always been a thing, but flipping 180 degrees from saying partygate doesn’t matter and is a triviality to currygate being the end of the world is a new low even for them.

    The chumocracy / clique of right wing outrider journalists and proprietors blurring with the Johnson administration is also eye opening. Favours for favours. You want channel4 and a weaker BBC, no problem!
    The law should apply equally to all. An ill-defined law - one that has even led Starmer, a top lawyer, to be unsure whether he broke it - has 'got' Johnson and the Tories. It is perfectly fair to ask whether the law, not it has been used politically, should apply to the other side in a situation that looks potentially dodgy to anyone who is not utterly biased.
    Nah. If the Mail had a consistent investigative campaign they would deserve respect. Instead they flipped 180 on the issue when it suited their partisan agenda. In which case, it’s just an offshoot of cchq and should be treated the same way as any propaganda.

    Meanwhile if the law was bad or draconian, the fault lies with the government.
    AIUI Starmer voted for the law. Anyone who voted for it in parliament has responsibility for the law - in the same way people who voted for the Iraq war have some responsibility for it.

    And the law has to apply equally to all sides. If one sides gets 'done' by the law, it's fine to say : "What about this thing you did?"
    That line is particularly weak. Offloading the governments responsibility for their laws onto opposition MPs, is just the sort of nonsense you get from the Johnson administration and its supporters. He takes responsibility for none of his errors. The buck is passed at super sonic speed. Meanwhile he takes the credit for the work of others if something goes right.
    I'm not a fan of Johnson, and I agree he doesn't take responsibility for his actions. In fact, I've been making that point since the Garden Bridge debacle.

    But your attempt to suggest that Starmer has no 'responsibility' for a law he voted for is laughable. Particularly as LOTO, he has the ability to whip his side *not* to vote for the law, or to get amendments put into it.

    And to be fair to both Starmer and the government, we were in a crisis. Things had to be done in a hurry. An interesting question is whether this law was actually needed. Was it an unnecessary stick?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 36,478

    malcolmg said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    LOL, I did not have you down as a Heil contributor.
    I'm not. I don't read it. I subscribe to the LRB and the Economist, and don't get newspapers - or generally read their websites unless linked to on places like here. I do read links - and the Guardian features much more prominently than (say) the Mail or Telegraph.

    But the hate for the Mail from leftists is hilarious. Especially people who call it the 'Heil'.

    (It'd be interesting to write a spider to crawl over PB's archive and see which newspapers or sites are most linked to, and how it changes over time. I guess Twitter might be first, then YouTube. Perhaps the Guardian as the 'top' newspaper?)
    I am not exactly of the left.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 38,596

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    You're about a week behind.
    Take a look at today's front page and justify it.

    As for the allegation itself, Labour's statement about the evidence they'll submit would seem to have shot that down, too.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 4,399
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    The cynicism/hypocrisy of the Mail has always been a thing, but flipping 180 degrees from saying partygate doesn’t matter and is a triviality to currygate being the end of the world is a new low even for them.

    The chumocracy / clique of right wing outrider journalists and proprietors blurring with the Johnson administration is also eye opening. Favours for favours. You want channel4 and a weaker BBC, no problem!
    Hypocrisy has always been a thing about The Mail; it's not easy to match their obsessions with family values and decency with their other obsession with starlets flaunting their curves. At least The Sun were upfront about Page 3.

    That's now reached the ripe madness of The Mail carping about hypocrisy in a fairly hypocritical way.
    The Daily Mail is a genius product, catering to the darker aspects of lower middle class prejudice and anxiety. I’m always impressed by how they can play both sides.

    “Outrage at TV nudity, pictures on page 4, 6 & 8.” delivers for the prude, the prurient and everyone in between.
    My dad gets the Mail but it does not make him happy because he will pick up on a story in it and fume about it inwardly . Its almost as if he likes to be like that- unhappy ,a bit paranoid , not liking anyone not like him or at least suspicious of them and their intentions. This is not a right wing problem as many on the committed left are like this as well - they just get different material to make them unhappy
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 38,142
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    The cynicism/hypocrisy of the Mail has always been a thing, but flipping 180 degrees from saying partygate doesn’t matter and is a triviality to currygate being the end of the world is a new low even for them.

    The chumocracy / clique of right wing outrider journalists and proprietors blurring with the Johnson administration is also eye opening. Favours for favours. You want channel4 and a weaker BBC, no problem!
    Hypocrisy has always been a thing about The Mail; it's not easy to match their obsessions with family values and decency with their other obsession with starlets flaunting their curves. At least The Sun were upfront about Page 3.

    That's now reached the ripe madness of The Mail carping about hypocrisy in a fairly hypocritical way.
    The Daily Mail is a genius product, catering to the darker aspects of lower middle class prejudice and anxiety. I’m always impressed by how they can play both sides.

    “Outrage at TV nudity, pictures on page 4, 6 & 8.” delivers for the prude, the prurient and everyone in between.
    ”Britney Spears sparks concern after posting NINE full frontal naked pictures on Instagram as worried fans beg her to stop”

    This is an actual headline from today’s Mail, accompanied of course by nine photographs of a naked woman barely covering her modesty.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 36,478

    Having travelled quite a bit, I wouldn’t say the UK is an angrier country than anywhere else. We’re certainly divided and we have our problems, but overall we’re a pretty typical western European country, with additional soft power acquired over a long period if time.

    In fact, I’d argue we are maybe a bit too complacent, especially in the face of a government that very clearly has no regard for our established Parliamentary democracy or the rule of law. We are the country of “mustn’t grumble” and “it could be worse”. That gives chancers and rogues like the current PM all the scope they need to do their worst.

    It would be nice to think that Starmer and Rayner doing what they’ve done might shine more of a contrasting light on Downing Street, but I doubt it.

    how is having a mass work gathering and beer and curry in anyway virtuous given what the law at the time was trying to prevent and Starmer fully supported ?
    At worst far better than 16 parties , BYOB , suitcases of bevvy, anybody and their dog invited , etc.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 38,596
    Heathener said:

    There a hundred better countries in which to live than Britain.

    And I intend to do so.

    Sounds like an exhausting plan.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 18,471
    The Mail is very creepy though. Especially on how they talk about underage girls.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 4,399
    edited May 10
    malcolmg said:

    Having travelled quite a bit, I wouldn’t say the UK is an angrier country than anywhere else. We’re certainly divided and we have our problems, but overall we’re a pretty typical western European country, with additional soft power acquired over a long period if time.

    In fact, I’d argue we are maybe a bit too complacent, especially in the face of a government that very clearly has no regard for our established Parliamentary democracy or the rule of law. We are the country of “mustn’t grumble” and “it could be worse”. That gives chancers and rogues like the current PM all the scope they need to do their worst.

    It would be nice to think that Starmer and Rayner doing what they’ve done might shine more of a contrasting light on Downing Street, but I doubt it.

    how is having a mass work gathering and beer and curry in anyway virtuous given what the law at the time was trying to prevent and Starmer fully supported ?
    At worst far better than 16 parties , BYOB , suitcases of bevvy, anybody and their dog invited , etc.
    well sure but its certainly not a contrast to what Boris did, more a contribution
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 284

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    The cynicism/hypocrisy of the Mail has always been a thing, but flipping 180 degrees from saying partygate doesn’t matter and is a triviality to currygate being the end of the world is a new low even for them.

    The chumocracy / clique of right wing outrider journalists and proprietors blurring with the Johnson administration is also eye opening. Favours for favours. You want channel4 and a weaker BBC, no problem!
    The law should apply equally to all. An ill-defined law - one that has even led Starmer, a top lawyer, to be unsure whether he broke it - has 'got' Johnson and the Tories. It is perfectly fair to ask whether the law, not it has been used politically, should apply to the other side in a situation that looks potentially dodgy to anyone who is not utterly biased.
    Nah. If the Mail had a consistent investigative campaign they would deserve respect. Instead they flipped 180 on the issue when it suited their partisan agenda. In which case, it’s just an offshoot of cchq and should be treated the same way as any propaganda.

    Meanwhile if the law was bad or draconian, the fault lies with the government.
    AIUI Starmer voted for the law. Anyone who voted for it in parliament has responsibility for the law - in the same way people who voted for the Iraq war have some responsibility for it.

    And the law has to apply equally to all sides. If one sides gets 'done' by the law, it's fine to say : "What about this thing you did?"
    Indeed, as soon as Goering uttered the magic words, 'What about-', Maxwell Fyfe banged his gavel and there appeared Harry Truman in dock, clad in a prison jumpsuit.

    A bit tongue in cheek, but it is categorically not a defence to ask 'What about this thing you did?' The two investigations are separate and should have nothing to do with each other. Durham police have received new information and Labour have submitted a dossier in rebuttal. Durham Police will decide if they think this gathering broke the law. If they do, then Starmer will resign.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 31,467
    edited May 10

    Having travelled quite a bit, I wouldn’t say the UK is an angrier country than anywhere else. We’re certainly divided and we have our problems, but overall we’re a pretty typical western European country, with additional soft power acquired over a long period if time.

    In fact, I’d argue we are maybe a bit too complacent, especially in the face of a government that very clearly has no regard for our established Parliamentary democracy or the rule of law. We are the country of “mustn’t grumble” and “it could be worse”. That gives chancers and rogues like the current PM all the scope they need to do their worst.

    It would be nice to think that Starmer and Rayner doing what they’ve done might shine more of a contrasting light on Downing Street, but I doubt it.

    how is having a mass work gathering and beer and curry in anyway virtuous given what the law at the time was trying to prevent and Starmer fully supported ?
    The rules were quite different in April 2021 to April 2020. By April 2021 half the population had been vaccinated for example.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 27,713
    Mornin' all!
    Assuming Starmer can satisfy Durham police, who, after Cummings, seem to take a fairly relaxed view of these things, then the pressure will be on older Tory members in the shires.
    And, IMHO anyway, they in danger of making themselves ridiculous by saying that Starmer is making life difficult for the police.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,558

    Having travelled quite a bit, I wouldn’t say the UK is an angrier country than anywhere else. We’re certainly divided and we have our problems, but overall we’re a pretty typical western European country, with additional soft power acquired over a long period if time.

    In fact, I’d argue we are maybe a bit too complacent, especially in the face of a government that very clearly has no regard for our established Parliamentary democracy or the rule of law. We are the country of “mustn’t grumble” and “it could be worse”. That gives chancers and rogues like the current PM all the scope they need to do their worst.

    It would be nice to think that Starmer and Rayner doing what they’ve done might shine more of a contrasting light on Downing Street, but I doubt it.

    how is having a mass work gathering and beer and curry in anyway virtuous given what the law at the time was trying to prevent and Starmer fully supported ?
    If they’ve broken the law they’ll be fined and they’ll resign. That’s not particularly virtuous if you’ve helped make the law, but it is an approach that stands in marked contrast to others.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,632

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    The cynicism/hypocrisy of the Mail has always been a thing, but flipping 180 degrees from saying partygate doesn’t matter and is a triviality to currygate being the end of the world is a new low even for them.

    The chumocracy / clique of right wing outrider journalists and proprietors blurring with the Johnson administration is also eye opening. Favours for favours. You want channel4 and a weaker BBC, no problem!
    Hypocrisy has always been a thing about The Mail; it's not easy to match their obsessions with family values and decency with their other obsession with starlets flaunting their curves. At least The Sun were upfront about Page 3.

    That's now reached the ripe madness of The Mail carping about hypocrisy in a fairly hypocritical way.
    The Daily Mail is a genius product, catering to the darker aspects of lower middle class prejudice and anxiety. I’m always impressed by how they can play both sides.

    “Outrage at TV nudity, pictures on page 4, 6 & 8.” delivers for the prude, the prurient and everyone in between.
    My dad gets the Mail but it does not make him happy because he will pick up on a story in it and fume about it inwardly . Its almost as if he likes to be like that- unhappy ,a bit paranoid , not liking anyone not like him or at least suspicious of them and their intentions. This is not a right wing problem as many on the committed left are like this as well - they just get different material to make them unhappy
    Sadly this sort of cynicism is corrosive. You end up trusting no one. The truth is that most politicians and people in public life are no different than the rest of us, wrestling with personal and altruistic motivation, making mistakes, but doing some good along the way.

    If we celebrated the good bits a little more, we would all be better off. Sadly it doesn’t sell, because the darker aspects of human nature that rags like the Mail tap into are potent.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,558
    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    You're about a week behind.
    Take a look at today's front page and justify it.

    As for the allegation itself, Labour's statement about the evidence they'll submit would seem to have shot that down, too.
    Today’s Mail front page is magnificent in its hypocrisy. On 30th April, its front page headline was:
    “Police told to investigate Labour lies”
    Followed by this opening paragraph:
    “Cabinet ministers last night joined calls for a new probe into the ‘Beergate’ scandal engulfing Keir Starmer and Angela Rayner.”
    The Mail believes its readers are easily manipulated, not very bright and devoid of short-term memory. It seems to be a winning formula!

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 38,142

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    The cynicism/hypocrisy of the Mail has always been a thing, but flipping 180 degrees from saying partygate doesn’t matter and is a triviality to currygate being the end of the world is a new low even for them.

    The chumocracy / clique of right wing outrider journalists and proprietors blurring with the Johnson administration is also eye opening. Favours for favours. You want channel4 and a weaker BBC, no problem!
    The law should apply equally to all. An ill-defined law - one that has even led Starmer, a top lawyer, to be unsure whether he broke it - has 'got' Johnson and the Tories. It is perfectly fair to ask whether the law, not it has been used politically, should apply to the other side in a situation that looks potentially dodgy to anyone who is not utterly biased.
    Nah. If the Mail had a consistent investigative campaign they would deserve respect. Instead they flipped 180 on the issue when it suited their partisan agenda. In which case, it’s just an offshoot of cchq and should be treated the same way as any propaganda.

    Meanwhile if the law was bad or draconian, the fault lies with the government.
    AIUI Starmer voted for the law. Anyone who voted for it in parliament has responsibility for the law - in the same way people who voted for the Iraq war have some responsibility for it.

    And the law has to apply equally to all sides. If one sides gets 'done' by the law, it's fine to say : "What about this thing you did?"
    That line is particularly weak. Offloading the governments responsibility for their laws onto opposition MPs, is just the sort of nonsense you get from the Johnson administration and its supporters. He takes responsibility for none of his errors. The buck is passed at super sonic speed. Meanwhile he takes the credit for the work of others if something goes right.
    I'm not a fan of Johnson, and I agree he doesn't take responsibility for his actions. In fact, I've been making that point since the Garden Bridge debacle.

    But your attempt to suggest that Starmer has no 'responsibility' for a law he voted for is laughable. Particularly as LOTO, he has the ability to whip his side *not* to vote for the law, or to get amendments put into it.

    And to be fair to both Starmer and the government, we were in a crisis. Things had to be done in a hurry. An interesting question is whether this law was actually needed. Was it an unnecessary stick?
    It would be useful to see some actual statistics for people fined under the Covid legislation for socialising.

    I’m going to take a guess that it was a few rebellious students, a few weddings that just added the fine to the cost, a handful of high-profile cases such as Kay Burley and the singer who had birthday parties - and the rest are the politically-motivated complaints in the news at the moment.

    Yes, with hindsight the law as written was probably not brilliant, but I have a lot of sympathy with those working in the legislature and government departments during the pandemic, who were genuinely trying to do the right thing.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 3,530
    Heathener said:

    There a hundred better countries in which to live than Britain.

    And I intend to do so.

    Care to name them?

    I know Vladimir Putin hates Britain with a passion now because of our ardent support of Ukraine, but what reason would you have to despise Britain so much that you'd think there are a hundred better countries to live in?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 1,350
    In the end, the next election will be decided by the economy and a raft of other more important things. However, the media narrative will retrospectively decide this was a key moment whatever the polling says. If Starmer goes on to become PM, some will also use this to beat him with later on a “you would resign over this but not that” basis. On the other hand, if Boris goes on to win in 24/25 then his reputation as the man that could survive anything will be the second line of his obituary (after Brexit).

    Politics. Sigh….
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,558
    Given his inattention to detail and general disregard for the rules, a face to face police interview for Johnson would be a disaster. He’d almost certainly incriminate himself. On the other hand, I imagine Starmer would welcome one as he’d know the rules better than his inquisitors and, as a former prosecuter, knows exactly how cases are built.

  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 3,530
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    The cynicism/hypocrisy of the Mail has always been a thing, but flipping 180 degrees from saying partygate doesn’t matter and is a triviality to currygate being the end of the world is a new low even for them.

    The chumocracy / clique of right wing outrider journalists and proprietors blurring with the Johnson administration is also eye opening. Favours for favours. You want channel4 and a weaker BBC, no problem!
    The law should apply equally to all. An ill-defined law - one that has even led Starmer, a top lawyer, to be unsure whether he broke it - has 'got' Johnson and the Tories. It is perfectly fair to ask whether the law, not it has been used politically, should apply to the other side in a situation that looks potentially dodgy to anyone who is not utterly biased.
    Nah. If the Mail had a consistent investigative campaign they would deserve respect. Instead they flipped 180 on the issue when it suited their partisan agenda. In which case, it’s just an offshoot of cchq and should be treated the same way as any propaganda.

    Meanwhile if the law was bad or draconian, the fault lies with the government.
    AIUI Starmer voted for the law. Anyone who voted for it in parliament has responsibility for the law - in the same way people who voted for the Iraq war have some responsibility for it.

    And the law has to apply equally to all sides. If one sides gets 'done' by the law, it's fine to say : "What about this thing you did?"
    That line is particularly weak. Offloading the governments responsibility for their laws onto opposition MPs, is just the sort of nonsense you get from the Johnson administration and its supporters. He takes responsibility for none of his errors. The buck is passed at super sonic speed. Meanwhile he takes the credit for the work of others if something goes right.
    No it isn't weak. The Opposition have a responsibility to scrutinise and hold the government to account.

    If the Opposition are voting for the Governments measures without amendment then either they're abdicating their own responsibility or they're endorsing what the Government is doing.

    It isn't just hindsight, many were criticising Starmer at the time for not scrutinising the Government over this legislation.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 38,142
    Hope everyone has sold their Bitcoins - it just missed the trigger of $30k overnight, when it gets down to there the big selloff starts.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,044

    Having travelled quite a bit, I wouldn’t say the UK is an angrier country than anywhere else. We’re certainly divided and we have our problems, but overall we’re a pretty typical western European country, with additional soft power acquired over a long period if time.

    In fact, I’d argue we are maybe a bit too complacent, especially in the face of a government that very clearly has no regard for our established Parliamentary democracy or the rule of law. We are the country of “mustn’t grumble” and “it could be worse”. That gives chancers and rogues like the current PM all the scope they need to do their worst.

    It would be nice to think that Starmer and Rayner doing what they’ve done might shine more of a contrasting light on Downing Street, but I doubt it.

    how is having a mass work gathering and beer and curry in anyway virtuous given what the law at the time was trying to prevent and Starmer fully supported ?
    If they’ve broken the law they’ll be fined and they’ll resign. That’s not particularly virtuous if you’ve helped make the law, but it is an approach that stands in marked contrast to others.

    Labour fixating again on the idea that it's the fine that counts not whether SKS is actually guilty of an offence. The fact that SKS refused to say if he would have resign if he is found guilty but didn't receive a fine suggests he knows he probably has done something wrong but is relying on Durham's stated policy of not issuing retrospective fines. It's a typical lawyer's wheeze. Not sure it will go down well with the public.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 2,719
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    You're about a week behind.
    Take a look at today's front page and justify it.

    As for the allegation itself, Labour's statement about the evidence they'll submit would seem to have shot that down, too.
    Today’s Mail front page is magnificent in its hypocrisy. On 30th April, its front page headline was:
    “Police told to investigate Labour lies”
    Followed by this opening paragraph:
    “Cabinet ministers last night joined calls for a new probe into the ‘Beergate’ scandal engulfing Keir Starmer and Angela Rayner.”
    The Mail believes its readers are easily manipulated, not very bright and devoid of short-term memory. It seems to be a winning formula!

    That dastardly Starmer is ruining the investigation by fully co-operating with it, and submitting evidence of what went on on the night in question...
    Fully cooperating by lying about the presence of Angela Rayner for 4 months?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,044
    Unpopular said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    The cynicism/hypocrisy of the Mail has always been a thing, but flipping 180 degrees from saying partygate doesn’t matter and is a triviality to currygate being the end of the world is a new low even for them.

    The chumocracy / clique of right wing outrider journalists and proprietors blurring with the Johnson administration is also eye opening. Favours for favours. You want channel4 and a weaker BBC, no problem!
    The law should apply equally to all. An ill-defined law - one that has even led Starmer, a top lawyer, to be unsure whether he broke it - has 'got' Johnson and the Tories. It is perfectly fair to ask whether the law, not it has been used politically, should apply to the other side in a situation that looks potentially dodgy to anyone who is not utterly biased.
    Nah. If the Mail had a consistent investigative campaign they would deserve respect. Instead they flipped 180 on the issue when it suited their partisan agenda. In which case, it’s just an offshoot of cchq and should be treated the same way as any propaganda.

    Meanwhile if the law was bad or draconian, the fault lies with the government.
    AIUI Starmer voted for the law. Anyone who voted for it in parliament has responsibility for the law - in the same way people who voted for the Iraq war have some responsibility for it.

    And the law has to apply equally to all sides. If one sides gets 'done' by the law, it's fine to say : "What about this thing you did?"
    Indeed, as soon as Goering uttered the magic words, 'What about-', Maxwell Fyfe banged his gavel and there appeared Harry Truman in dock, clad in a prison jumpsuit.

    A bit tongue in cheek, but it is categorically not a defence to ask 'What about this thing you did?' The two investigations are separate and should have nothing to do with each other. Durham police have received new information and Labour have submitted a dossier in rebuttal. Durham Police will decide if they think this gathering broke the law. If they do, then Starmer will resign.
    Except he won't if he is found to have broken the law but doesn't receive a fine. In that case, he will stay.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,632

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    The cynicism/hypocrisy of the Mail has always been a thing, but flipping 180 degrees from saying partygate doesn’t matter and is a triviality to currygate being the end of the world is a new low even for them.

    The chumocracy / clique of right wing outrider journalists and proprietors blurring with the Johnson administration is also eye opening. Favours for favours. You want channel4 and a weaker BBC, no problem!
    The law should apply equally to all. An ill-defined law - one that has even led Starmer, a top lawyer, to be unsure whether he broke it - has 'got' Johnson and the Tories. It is perfectly fair to ask whether the law, not it has been used politically, should apply to the other side in a situation that looks potentially dodgy to anyone who is not utterly biased.
    Nah. If the Mail had a consistent investigative campaign they would deserve respect. Instead they flipped 180 on the issue when it suited their partisan agenda. In which case, it’s just an offshoot of cchq and should be treated the same way as any propaganda.

    Meanwhile if the law was bad or draconian, the fault lies with the government.
    AIUI Starmer voted for the law. Anyone who voted for it in parliament has responsibility for the law - in the same way people who voted for the Iraq war have some responsibility for it.

    And the law has to apply equally to all sides. If one sides gets 'done' by the law, it's fine to say : "What about this thing you did?"
    That line is particularly weak. Offloading the governments responsibility for their laws onto opposition MPs, is just the sort of nonsense you get from the Johnson administration and its supporters. He takes responsibility for none of his errors. The buck is passed at super sonic speed. Meanwhile he takes the credit for the work of others if something goes right.
    No it isn't weak. The Opposition have a responsibility to scrutinise and hold the government to account.

    If the Opposition are voting for the Governments measures without amendment then either they're abdicating their own responsibility or they're endorsing what the Government is doing.

    It isn't just hindsight, many were criticising Starmer at the time for not scrutinising the Government over this legislation.
    Boris’ is running the ‘not me Gov’ administration. Everyone else is responsible.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 1,350
    Jonathan said:



    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    I think this is right Mike and the FT. Having a beer and curry also shows he's not a robot.

    It's the principle though, even though the Hate Mail are making a desperate attempt to portray it negatively.

    If and when the Sue Gray report appears this will pile pressure on Johnson.

    I’m a staunch opponent of the Mail, Express and other propaganda sheets, however, in this situation I think it’s very clear that the initiators of the story were the Labour Party’s own discontented left-wingers. They merely used the Mail as their vehicle. Very few journalists/propagandists turn down a good story. Ethics are as thin on the ground in England’s media as they are in her legislature.
    Is that true? The video came from the son of right-wing writer James Delingpole, and doesn't much of the comment from inside the hall come from an independent councillor? Whilst there will be Labour people who would prefer a different leader, I'm not sure they are driving this, unless you mean Lord Mandelson.
    Yes I think this line which Leon first proposed on here is probably dubious. The Corbynistas probably helped feed it though.

    It's the Mail who are largely responsible. The story was already out there and had circulated for months. The Daily Mail decided that, no, we didn't need to know there's a war on after all. So rather than whingeing about all the nasty attacks on Dear lovable Boris when we should be watching bombs rain down on Donbass, what we really had to get vexed about was a working beer & curry 12 months ago. Starmer was Arch Hypocrite etc. etc.

    It's a sign of how nasty things are going to be in the build up to the General Election. The Hate Mail is spilling poison into everything they can lay their hands on, deliberately invoking culture wars and stoking up violence and hatred across the board.

    Frankly I can't wait to emigrate from this mean-spirited and angry country.
    Whilst the Mail might be a pita, I am not sure this is an angry country. There are no riots on the street. Even the gangs taking it in turns to kill each other have slowed down. I do not know if there is some sort of international index but I'm pretty sure that, on any objective basis, Britain is the best country in the world. Chin up!
    I laugh at all this hate for the Mail. Yes, it's not a 'good' newspaper - especially if you are of the left. But many newspapers are absolutely [email protected] and utterly biased. But the hate on the Mail is not based on quality: it is based on their political bias. If they were leftist, there would be far fewer complaints...

    And evidently the Mail were right: there was enough information for the police to reopen the investigation. Many on here apparently would be perfectly happy for it not to be investigated. Which *might* be fine in this case. But I bet they'd be saying the same about more severe cases as well.

    If Labour are in trouble over this, then it's their own fault. Not the Mail's.
    The cynicism/hypocrisy of the Mail has always been a thing, but flipping 180 degrees from saying partygate doesn’t matter and is a triviality to currygate being the end of the world is a new low even for them.

    The chumocracy / clique of right wing outrider journalists and proprietors blurring with the Johnson administration is also eye opening. Favours for favours. You want channel4 and a weaker BBC, no problem!
    Hypocrisy has always been a thing about The Mail; it's not easy to match their obsessions with family values and decency with their other obsession with starlets flaunting their curves. At least The Sun were upfront about Page 3.

    That's now reached the ripe madness of The Mail carping about hypocrisy in a fairly hypocritical way.
    The Daily Mail is a genius product, catering to the darker aspects of lower middle class prejudice and anxiety. I’m always impressed by how they can play both sides.

    “Outrage at TV nudity, pictures on page 4, 6 & 8.” delivers for the prude, the prurient and everyone in between.
    My dad gets the Mail but it does not make him happy because he will pick up on a story in it and fume about it inwardly . Its almost as if he likes to be like that- unhappy ,a bit paranoid , not liking anyone not like him or at least suspicious of them and their intentions. This is not a right wing problem as many on the committed left are like this as well - they just get different material to make them unhappy
    Sadly this sort of cynicism is corrosive. You end up trusting no one. The truth is that most politicians and people in public life are no different than the rest of us, wrestling with personal and altruistic motivation, making mistakes, but doing some good along the way.

    If we celebrated the good bits a little more, we would all be better off. Sadly it doesn’t sell, because the darker aspects of human nature that rags like the Mail tap into are potent.
    Yes, I have no idea why anyone would want to be a top flight politician any more, or even a council leader. A large amount of the public just assume your are in moral and on the make, and you need to watch every tiny thing you say, and every decision you make, for fear of the ever present cry of “he’s a hypocrite”.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 3,530
    Foxy said:

    Having travelled quite a bit, I wouldn’t say the UK is an angrier country than anywhere else. We’re certainly divided and we have our problems, but overall we’re a pretty typical western European country, with additional soft power acquired over a long period if time.

    In fact, I’d argue we are maybe a bit too complacent, especially in the face of a government that very clearly has no regard for our established Parliamentary democracy or the rule of law. We are the country of “mustn’t grumble” and “it could be worse”. That gives chancers and rogues like the current PM all the scope they need to do their worst.

    It would be nice to think that Starmer and Rayner doing what they’ve done might shine more of a contrasting light on Downing Street, but I doubt it.

    how is having a mass work gathering and beer and curry in anyway virtuous given what the law at the time was trying to prevent and Starmer fully supported ?
    The rules were quite different in April 2021 to April 2020. By April 2021 half the population had been vaccinated for example.
    Indeed though its funny how many people are saying that about Starmer's drinking session that he attended, but how few people were saying that when the drinking session that Downing Street staff had 'on the eve of Prince Philip's funeral' came out.

    The latter was also April 2021.
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