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The remarkable collapse of Rishi Sunak – politicalbetting.com

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  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Andy_JS said:

    Just seen the Boris Becker news. Totally ridiculous that someone gets such a long prison sentence for a financial crime. He ought to be doing community service for the next 5 years in my opinion.

    Why?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,242

    kle4 said:

    What serendipitous timing for the review to report

    The British Virgin Islands' (BVI) constitution should be suspended and its government dissolved, a review says, amid concerns about corruption.

    The overseas territory would effectively be returned to direct rule from London under the recommendations.

    Foreign Secretary Liz Truss said the arrest of BVI's premier in the US showed the need for "urgent action".

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61276109

    It's the scale of a moderately sized town, so presumably not hard to run. Maybe just go for full independence and keep the well behaving overseas territories?

    Perhaps we could find an eminent QC or a former attorney general who could act as governor?
    Would appear tailor-made for His Revolting Lowness, Prince Andrew?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Jonathan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Just seen the Boris Becker news. Totally ridiculous that someone gets such a long prison sentence for a financial crime. He ought to be doing community service for the next 5 years in my opinion.

    Why?
    Because the only reason to put someone in prison is if they are dangerous.

    Anyone else should be punished, but not go to prison. Whether they are Boris Becker, or all those Labour MPs who ended up in chokey because of the expenses scandal, or Chris Huhne, or Jeffery Archer. If they are not a danger to society, they should not be in jail.

    Given Boris' love of money, a massive fine plus community service is indeed warranted.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,087

    Boris sent to prison.

    Sadly, not that Boris.

    Interesting suggestion from @CharonQC (founder of BPP Law school):

    The Boris Becker jailing sentence suggests that some Judges need to read a book on Sentencing and why prison is not always appropriate. Community Service to teach youngsters to play Tennis would have been FAR better! But such is the ENGLISH legal system. Absurd. Annoyed me.
    https://twitter.com/Charonqc/status/1520072685673398272
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,461

    nova said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Do people think he should? Is the crime looking at porn on a mobile phone or doing it in parliament? I can see why Angela Rayner could feel offended but I struggle to see who the hapless Neil Parish has upset unless he shared the film with someone inappropriate
    It is not, to my mind, a resigning matter. I think it appropriate he should face a party consequence, and possibly even some as an MP, since watching porn whilst you are supposed to be at work brings both into disrepute (maintaining high standards is not merely an issue of if you have upset someone) and would result in a warning or some disciplinary for others, but resigning over it would be very disproportionate.
    A quick Google suggests most employers will consider it gross misconduct even if other's don't see you.

    Given that he's doing it in a semi-public environment, with female colleagues around him, I'd say it would be a sackable offence most places.

    When you consider that he's (naïve I know), meant to be representing his constituents in Parliament, I'd say he should be held to pretty high standards.
    I won't comment on Neil Parish, as I know him and have worked with him on various issues - we'll see what comes out.

    Molre broadly, there are two separate issues, aren't there? One is pursuing private entertainment while sitting in the Chamber - would apply equally if the MP was watching football or playing Wordle. The other is that although watching porn privately is undoubtedly quite common (not sure if there are reliable figures?), it's not universal and it upsets a significant number of people to be forced to see it by sitting next to someone (at work, on a bus, etc.).

    The first issue is not a resigning matter - as I said yesterday, MPs just don't listen riveted to every word in a debate, and everyone in the House knows that. It would however be expected that they do work stuff - answer constituents, look up issues, etc. - so I'd expect an MP spotted watching football in the Chamber to just get a warning from the whips to concentrate on the job.

    The second issue is more serious, and at the least constitutes reckless disregard for the feelings of colleagues, or astonishing ignorance of how they might feel. That probably is a matter for permanent loss of the whip, and perhaps resignation.
    I write as an ex-civil servant. If you were caught watching porn at work, you'd expect to face a charge of gross misconduct and be out on your ear. By definition, being caught means someone has seen you doing it. If you're doing it on a private phone and nobody sees you doing it, then nobody knows. If it's a work phone, whether you're caught by observation or through IT surveillance, then you deserve to be sacked for gross stupidity as well as misconduct. What you do out of work is, of course, none of your employer's business, as long as it's legal.

    I don't see why it should be any different for MPs, who are also servants of the people.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,087

    Jonathan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Just seen the Boris Becker news. Totally ridiculous that someone gets such a long prison sentence for a financial crime. He ought to be doing community service for the next 5 years in my opinion.

    Why?
    Because the only reason to put someone in prison is if they are dangerous.

    Anyone else should be punished, but not go to prison. Whether they are Boris Becker, or all those Labour MPs who ended up in chokey because of the expenses scandal, or Chris Huhne, or Jeffery Archer. If they are not a danger to society, they should not be in jail.

    Given Boris' love of money, a massive fine plus community service is indeed warranted.
    How do you heavily fine a man who just went bankrupt?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,242

    An issue that Ben Wallace might find tricky if he became PM:

    https://mailchi.mp/tortoisemedia/porking-up-2?e=484b7928c0

    Could it be that you're NPxMP in part because you did NOT secure ENOUGH such pork for your constituency?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,087
    edited April 2022

    kle4 said:

    What serendipitous timing for the review to report

    The British Virgin Islands' (BVI) constitution should be suspended and its government dissolved, a review says, amid concerns about corruption.

    The overseas territory would effectively be returned to direct rule from London under the recommendations.

    Foreign Secretary Liz Truss said the arrest of BVI's premier in the US showed the need for "urgent action".

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61276109

    It's the scale of a moderately sized town, so presumably not hard to run. Maybe just go for full independence and keep the well behaving overseas territories?

    Perhaps we could find an eminent QC or a former attorney general who could act as governor?
    Would appear tailor-made for His Revolting Lowness, Prince Andrew?
    Personally I'd be more inclined to learn a little from the French setup, and perhaps offer independence or closer links in a referendum.

    Perhaps ditto for the others. I think one primary positive that we do well would be marine protection.
  • mickydroymickydroy Posts: 232

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Off topic...

    Next available appointment for a telephone consultation with a GP: 27 days' time. Let's hope I'm able to get to the phone!

    Good old NHS, it is the envy of the world you know? Certainly the envy of considerably lesser paid primary care doctors in the rest of the world.
    Actually that raises an interesting point. We get zillions of articles and broadcasts about how bad things currently are in the NHS, but I don't recall a single one which puts that into the context of how healthcare systems in other European countries, which must be faced with similar challenges, are doing. Are they doing better than us? Who knows?
    Answer, yes. For years the disparity was put down to lack of comparable funding. New Labour decided to destructively test this by hosing money at the NHS, and yes there were significant improvements, but huge amounts of cash was absorbed by eye watering pay increases for medical staff (the lower downs were less benefitted). Our primary care system was not rationalised so we are left with a system that duplicated services unnecessarily. It needs massive reform but this will always be blocked by the most powerful union in the world, the BMA. The only form of true deference in this country is to doctors. If you don't believe me, watch the free ride that BMA reps are given by TV journalists.
    Yet thanks to the NHS the UK still gets its healthcare on the cheap and was still getting reasonable outcomes until the pandemic struck. This is the latest (dated 2019) that I could find from the ONS:

    "In 2017, the UK spent £2,989 per person on healthcare, which was around the median for members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development: OECD (£2,913 per person). However, of the G7 group of large, developed economies, UK healthcare spending per person was the second-lowest, with the highest spenders being France (£3,737), Germany (£4,432) and the United States (£7,736)."


    Bollocks. What is the survey that @Richard_Tyndall links to showing that the NHS is internationally better than everyone else apart from, er, health outcomes and mortality.
    Was it the Civitas report just published? It shows the NHS does badly on most outcomes except for diabetes — huzzah for @Foxy — but if you read a couple of dozen pages past the headlines and into the report, there is a handy table showing Britain's per capita health spend is, erm, 14th. If we want French or German healthcare, we shall need to write some big cheques).
    https://civitas.org.uk/publications/international-health-care-outcomes-index-2022/
    Perhaps. As I said at the moment there is no coordination between different parts of the health service and no real incentive (aside from wanting to keep people alive/well) not to perform badly, as you say in almost every area.

    Is it about spending? Not sure - my impression is that it is the culture. Of resentment by the NHS workers at "the bosses/govt/the man". Would they do a better job if they were paid more? As I said, perhaps.
    Don't think so. When we threw substantial money at it in 2005-2010, waiting lists dropped like a stone (18 weeks vs previously up to 2 years). Clearly money isn't everything, but it does help!
    The NHS is a shambles now, there is no comparison to what it was like under Blair, it has been underfunded for over 10 years, and there is also a desperate staff shortage across the service, the tories deserve to be booted out on this alone, it is an ongoing scandal
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    MattW said:

    Jonathan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Just seen the Boris Becker news. Totally ridiculous that someone gets such a long prison sentence for a financial crime. He ought to be doing community service for the next 5 years in my opinion.

    Why?
    Because the only reason to put someone in prison is if they are dangerous.

    Anyone else should be punished, but not go to prison. Whether they are Boris Becker, or all those Labour MPs who ended up in chokey because of the expenses scandal, or Chris Huhne, or Jeffery Archer. If they are not a danger to society, they should not be in jail.

    Given Boris' love of money, a massive fine plus community service is indeed warranted.
    How do you heavily fine a man who just went bankrupt?
    But is he really bankrupt?

    He has given money to others to squirrel away, so he doesn't have to meet his financial obligations.

    Just like Tommy Robinson.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,249

    MattW said:

    Jonathan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Just seen the Boris Becker news. Totally ridiculous that someone gets such a long prison sentence for a financial crime. He ought to be doing community service for the next 5 years in my opinion.

    Why?
    Because the only reason to put someone in prison is if they are dangerous.

    Anyone else should be punished, but not go to prison. Whether they are Boris Becker, or all those Labour MPs who ended up in chokey because of the expenses scandal, or Chris Huhne, or Jeffery Archer. If they are not a danger to society, they should not be in jail.

    Given Boris' love of money, a massive fine plus community service is indeed warranted.
    How do you heavily fine a man who just went bankrupt?
    But is he really bankrupt?

    He has given money to others to squirrel away, so he doesn't have to meet his financial obligations.

    Just like Tommy Robinson.
    He’s also got one suspended sentence ALREADY, from a German court, for pretty much exactly this. Yet it seems he did it again?

    That reduces sympathy. Yet one still feels some of that. He was a likeable personality. Genial and wry. What a pity
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    MattW said:

    Boris sent to prison.

    Sadly, not that Boris.

    Interesting suggestion from @CharonQC (founder of BPP Law school):

    The Boris Becker jailing sentence suggests that some Judges need to read a book on Sentencing and why prison is not always appropriate. Community Service to teach youngsters to play Tennis would have been FAR better! But such is the ENGLISH legal system. Absurd. Annoyed me.
    https://twitter.com/Charonqc/status/1520072685673398272
    That's wrong IMO, though I haven't read much on it. Hasn't Becker lied and prevaricated throughout this process, over millions of pounds?

    If you can go to jail for six months for shoplifting up to £200, and seven years for above that (1), then I don't see why what he's done is much different. Lord Brocket got five years for his insurance fraud 25 years ago.

    Becker's famous. I get it. But I don't think that such fraud is victimless: he owed £50 million. Whilst many of those creditors might be big, faceless banks, others might be small mom-and-pop operations, for whom a small amount regained through the bankruptcy process might be the difference between solvency and bankruptcy for themselves.

    (1): https://www.inbrief.co.uk/offences/shoplifting/
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 4,339
    kle4 said:

    What serendipitous timing for the review to report

    The British Virgin Islands' (BVI) constitution should be suspended and its government dissolved, a review says, amid concerns about corruption.

    The overseas territory would effectively be returned to direct rule from London under the recommendations.

    Foreign Secretary Liz Truss said the arrest of BVI's premier in the US showed the need for "urgent action".

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61276109

    It's the scale of a moderately sized town, so presumably not hard to run. Maybe just go for full independence and keep the well behaving overseas territories?

    Quick, tell the palace! A Caribbean island they can safely visit.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,242
    MattW said:

    Boris sent to prison.

    Sadly, not that Boris.

    Interesting suggestion from @CharonQC (founder of BPP Law school):

    The Boris Becker jailing sentence suggests that some Judges need to read a book on Sentencing and why prison is not always appropriate. Community Service to teach youngsters to play Tennis would have been FAR better! But such is the ENGLISH legal system. Absurd. Annoyed me.
    https://twitter.com/Charonqc/status/1520072685673398272
    Martha Stewart says "hi!"

    Main reason by Feds prosecuted her and got her sent to Club Fed, was to send a message to all the other would-be insider-traders that just because they are rich and/or famous, they are NOT above the law.

    Anyway, didn't do her any harm. In fact, gave her some wonderful ideas on decorating small living spaces.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,087

    MattW said:

    Boris sent to prison.

    Sadly, not that Boris.

    Interesting suggestion from @CharonQC (founder of BPP Law school):

    The Boris Becker jailing sentence suggests that some Judges need to read a book on Sentencing and why prison is not always appropriate. Community Service to teach youngsters to play Tennis would have been FAR better! But such is the ENGLISH legal system. Absurd. Annoyed me.
    https://twitter.com/Charonqc/status/1520072685673398272
    That's wrong IMO, though I haven't read much on it. Hasn't Becker lied and prevaricated throughout this process, over millions of pounds?

    If you can go to jail for six months for shoplifting up to £200, and seven years for above that (1), then I don't see why what he's done is much different. Lord Brocket got five years for his insurance fraud 25 years ago.

    Becker's famous. I get it. But I don't think that such fraud is victimless: he owed £50 million. Whilst many of those creditors might be big, faceless banks, others might be small mom-and-pop operations, for whom a small amount regained through the bankruptcy process might be the difference between solvency and bankruptcy for themselves.

    (1): https://www.inbrief.co.uk/offences/shoplifting/
    Yes - fair points.

    I guess there is a strong argument for a combination of the two - 18 months in prison (/2) then several years of community service.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,087
    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Jonathan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Just seen the Boris Becker news. Totally ridiculous that someone gets such a long prison sentence for a financial crime. He ought to be doing community service for the next 5 years in my opinion.

    Why?
    Because the only reason to put someone in prison is if they are dangerous.

    Anyone else should be punished, but not go to prison. Whether they are Boris Becker, or all those Labour MPs who ended up in chokey because of the expenses scandal, or Chris Huhne, or Jeffery Archer. If they are not a danger to society, they should not be in jail.

    Given Boris' love of money, a massive fine plus community service is indeed warranted.
    How do you heavily fine a man who just went bankrupt?
    But is he really bankrupt?

    He has given money to others to squirrel away, so he doesn't have to meet his financial obligations.

    Just like Tommy Robinson.
    He’s also got one suspended sentence ALREADY, from a German court, for pretty much exactly this. Yet it seems he did it again?

    That reduces sympathy. Yet one still feels some of that. He was a likeable personality. Genial and wry. What a pity
    Doesn't that mean he has to serve the suspended one when he gets out?
  • I’d get sacked if I watched porn at work
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 4,339

    nova said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Do people think he should? Is the crime looking at porn on a mobile phone or doing it in parliament? I can see why Angela Rayner could feel offended but I struggle to see who the hapless Neil Parish has upset unless he shared the film with someone inappropriate
    It is not, to my mind, a resigning matter. I think it appropriate he should face a party consequence, and possibly even some as an MP, since watching porn whilst you are supposed to be at work brings both into disrepute (maintaining high standards is not merely an issue of if you have upset someone) and would result in a warning or some disciplinary for others, but resigning over it would be very disproportionate.
    A quick Google suggests most employers will consider it gross misconduct even if other's don't see you.

    Given that he's doing it in a semi-public environment, with female colleagues around him, I'd say it would be a sackable offence most places.

    When you consider that he's (naïve I know), meant to be representing his constituents in Parliament, I'd say he should be held to pretty high standards.
    I won't comment on Neil Parish, as I know him and have worked with him on various issues - we'll see what comes out.

    Molre broadly, there are two separate issues, aren't there? One is pursuing private entertainment while sitting in the Chamber - would apply equally if the MP was watching football or playing Wordle. The other is that although watching porn privately is undoubtedly quite common (not sure if there are reliable figures?), it's not universal and it upsets a significant number of people to be forced to see it by sitting next to someone (at work, on a bus, etc.).

    The first issue is not a resigning matter - as I said yesterday, MPs just don't listen riveted to every word in a debate, and everyone in the House knows that. It would however be expected that they do work stuff - answer constituents, look up issues, etc. - so I'd expect an MP spotted watching football in the Chamber to just get a warning from the whips to concentrate on the job.

    The second issue is more serious, and at the least constitutes reckless disregard for the feelings of colleagues, or astonishing ignorance of how they might feel. That probably is a matter for permanent loss of the whip, and perhaps resignation.
    I write as an ex-civil servant. If you were caught watching porn at work, you'd expect to face a charge of gross misconduct and be out on your ear. By definition, being caught means someone has seen you doing it. If you're doing it on a private phone and nobody sees you doing it, then nobody knows. If it's a work phone, whether you're caught by observation or through IT surveillance, then you deserve to be sacked for gross stupidity as well as misconduct. What you do out of work is, of course, none of your employer's business, as long as it's legal.

    I don't see why it should be any different for MPs, who are also servants of the people.
    IT surveillance is the interesting bit. The House authorities could quite easily find out every member who’d done it on work wifi ever. Now, as many have said, doing it in private on word wifi if more a warning sort of offence (unless it’s persistent) but it would stop anyone else doing it over night.

    Would make an interesting FOI mind, to ask for the numbers….
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,249
    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America

    My first American driving experience was driving from Los Angeles to Palm Springs, Getting out of LA was an experience - terrible roads.

    You don't need a car in Vegas but there's nothing like cruising along the Strip and you can access some of the very good restaurants to be found in Henderson and the other Vegas suburbs.
    The roads have been magnificent throughout this trip: Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi (Louisiana next and last). You really do have to drive in America (outside a few eastern cities), but they make sure driving is easy and smooth. The maintenance is immaculate. I have barely seen a pot hole in a week of driving. It puts the UK to shame, in that department
    My first US road trip was picking up a rental in Atlantic City NJ, drive to Cape May, the Cape Charles, then New Bern, Charleston, Beaufort SC, Savannah, across the Okefenokee Swamp, Tallahasee, Mobile, Norlins, up the Natchez, Oxford MS, Nashville, Daniel Boone National Forest, Ashville, up the Blue Ridge to Stanton VA, then Cumberland MD, following the mountains all the way up to Watertown, NY, then across to Montpelier, Bangor Maine, and down to Concord MA, then to Albany and down the Hudson, back to Atlantic City. Took a while, but I was between jobs. :D
    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America

    My first American driving experience was driving from Los Angeles to Palm Springs, Getting out of LA was an experience - terrible roads.

    You don't need a car in Vegas but there's nothing like cruising along the Strip and you can access some of the very good restaurants to be found in Henderson and the other Vegas suburbs.
    The roads have been magnificent throughout this trip: Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi (Louisiana next and last). You really do have to drive in America (outside a few eastern cities), but they make sure driving is easy and smooth. The maintenance is immaculate. I have barely seen a pot hole in a week of driving. It puts the UK to shame, in that department
    My first US road trip was picking up a rental in Atlantic City NJ, drive to Cape May, the Cape Charles, then New Bern, Charleston, Beaufort SC, Savannah, across the Okefenokee Swamp, Tallahasee, Mobile, Norlins, up the Natchez, Oxford MS, Nashville, Daniel Boone National Forest, Ashville, up the Blue Ridge to Stanton VA, then Cumberland MD, following the mountains all the way up to Watertown, NY, then across to Montpelier, Bangor Maine, and down to Concord MA, then to Albany and down the Hudson, back to Atlantic City. Took a while, but I was between jobs. :D
    That sounds EPIC

    This sojourn has reminded me what fun US road trips are

    They are so different to normal holidays. Every day something new. Something different. Every morning you jump in the car and you get a surge of energy: ooh what’s around the corner

    There’s also a melancholy. The endless road. But that’s all part of it. There’s a melancholy in staring at the same Tuscan swimming pool for a fortnight

    And yes - @TOPPING - you REALLY need a car and the ability to drive
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,087

    MattW said:

    Jonathan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Just seen the Boris Becker news. Totally ridiculous that someone gets such a long prison sentence for a financial crime. He ought to be doing community service for the next 5 years in my opinion.

    Why?
    Because the only reason to put someone in prison is if they are dangerous.

    Anyone else should be punished, but not go to prison. Whether they are Boris Becker, or all those Labour MPs who ended up in chokey because of the expenses scandal, or Chris Huhne, or Jeffery Archer. If they are not a danger to society, they should not be in jail.

    Given Boris' love of money, a massive fine plus community service is indeed warranted.
    How do you heavily fine a man who just went bankrupt?
    But is he really bankrupt?

    He has given money to others to squirrel away, so he doesn't have to meet his financial obligations.

    Just like Tommy Robinson.
    I haven't read it in that much detail either, but I was assuming that now they know about it it would have been pulled back under the Proceeds of Crime Act, which is very strong.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,921
    edited April 2022
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    At a laundromat in Natchez, Mississippi. The kindness and friendliness of Southerners remains incredible

    Did you park outside?

    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America
    I've BEEN to America three times (even worked for three months the final stay).

    The first trip was to a conference at Snowbird, Utah, in 2007. Apart from the cable car up to Hidden Mountain (11000 feet) didn't travel out of the resort all week.

    In 2009, attended another conference in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Was in the city itself, so not as claustrophobic as Snowbird. One free afternoon, I had time to take the New Mexico Rail Runner to Albuquerque and back. Didn't need a car!

    And then in 2011, I worked near Denver, Colorado for three months, even had free travel on all public transport in the Greater Denver area (the RTD network). Managed to do a load of bus routes, plus the whole of RTD's light rail network as it was back then (has expanded a lot since!). And again, I didn't need a car.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
    Hard to know what is true on Twitter, but if true this is an 'interesting' development in the Kherson area:

    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    · 1h
    Reports coming in about a shootout between Russian forces in Kiselivka, in the Kherson region.

    50 Buryats started shooting against 50 Chechens after the Chechens stole goods that the Buryats had looted from Ukrainian homes.

    Killed & injured on both sides before FSB intervened.
  • nova said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Do people think he should? Is the crime looking at porn on a mobile phone or doing it in parliament? I can see why Angela Rayner could feel offended but I struggle to see who the hapless Neil Parish has upset unless he shared the film with someone inappropriate
    It is not, to my mind, a resigning matter. I think it appropriate he should face a party consequence, and possibly even some as an MP, since watching porn whilst you are supposed to be at work brings both into disrepute (maintaining high standards is not merely an issue of if you have upset someone) and would result in a warning or some disciplinary for others, but resigning over it would be very disproportionate.
    A quick Google suggests most employers will consider it gross misconduct even if other's don't see you.

    Given that he's doing it in a semi-public environment, with female colleagues around him, I'd say it would be a sackable offence most places.

    When you consider that he's (naïve I know), meant to be representing his constituents in Parliament, I'd say he should be held to pretty high standards.
    I won't comment on Neil Parish, as I know him and have worked with him on various issues - we'll see what comes out.

    Molre broadly, there are two separate issues, aren't there? One is pursuing private entertainment while sitting in the Chamber - would apply equally if the MP was watching football or playing Wordle. The other is that although watching porn privately is undoubtedly quite common (not sure if there are reliable figures?), it's not universal and it upsets a significant number of people to be forced to see it by sitting next to someone (at work, on a bus, etc.).

    The first issue is not a resigning matter - as I said yesterday, MPs just don't listen riveted to every word in a debate, and everyone in the House knows that. It would however be expected that they do work stuff - answer constituents, look up issues, etc. - so I'd expect an MP spotted watching football in the Chamber to just get a warning from the whips to concentrate on the job.

    The second issue is more serious, and at the least constitutes reckless disregard for the feelings of colleagues, or astonishing ignorance of how they might feel. That probably is a matter for permanent loss of the whip, and perhaps resignation.
    I write as an ex-civil servant. If you were caught watching porn at work, you'd expect to face a charge of gross misconduct and be out on your ear. By definition, being caught means someone has seen you doing it. If you're doing it on a private phone and nobody sees you doing it, then nobody knows. If it's a work phone, whether you're caught by observation or through IT surveillance, then you deserve to be sacked for gross stupidity as well as misconduct. What you do out of work is, of course, none of your employer's business, as long as it's legal.

    I don't see why it should be any different for MPs, who are also servants of the people.
    It was instant dismissal for this offence at the last firm I worked for.

    We had a branch office in Miami where a routine IT check discovered Playboy was the most visited site. The branch was closed down overnite and as far as I know everyone was sacked.

    I'm not saying this is necessarily right but the firm was clearly taking no chances with its reputation. Obviously the HoC doesn't have much of a reputation, so maybe things are different there but I think the zero-tolerance rule is pretty widespread elsewhere.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    At a laundromat in Natchez, Mississippi. The kindness and friendliness of Southerners remains incredible

    Did you park outside?

    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America
    I've BEEN to America three times (even worked for three months the final stay).

    The first trip was to a conference at Snowbird, Utah, in 2007. Apart from the cable car up to Hidden Mountain (11000 feet) didn't travel out of the resort all week.

    In 2009, attended another conference in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Was in the city itself, so not as claustrophobic as Snowbird. One free afternoon, I had time to take the New Mexico Rail Runner to Albuquerque and back. Didn't need a car!

    And then in 2011, I worked near Denver, Colorado for three months, even had free travel on all public transport in the Greater Denver area (the RTD network). Managed to do a load of bus routes, plus the whole of RTD's light rail network as it was back then (has expanded a lot since!). And again, I didn't need a car.
    So you didn't see America
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,881

    I’d get sacked if I watched porn at work

    Dont you work from home?
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,911
    MattW said:

    kyf_100 said:

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    biggles said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Do people think he should? Is the crime looking at porn on a mobile phone or doing it in parliament? I can see why Angela Rayner could feel offended but I struggle to see who the hapless Neil Parish has upset unless he shared the film with someone inappropriate
    It is not, to my mind, a resigning matter. I think it appropriate he should face a party consequence, and possibly even some as an MP, since watching porn whilst you are supposed to be at work brings both into disrepute (maintaining high standards is not merely an issue of if you have upset someone) and would result in a warning or some disciplinary for others, but resigning over it would be very disproportionate.
    I think my place might think about whether it was gross misconduct if done on the floor plate in front of others, as opposed to hidden away.
    If I found an employee was in their own office, looking at porn when they were supposed to be working, it would be a disciplinary issue:

    "Oi. I pay you to work, not to look at porn. Don't do it again or there'll be serious consequences."

    On the other hand, if it was in a meeting, and other employees were exposed it, it would be a much more serious offence. I don't know whether it would merit immediate dismissal, but it certainly would be a lot more than just a talking to.
    Back in 1995/6, our senior system tester working on a Saturday was caught looking at Internet porn whilst system testing a telephone exchange in short timescales - in between tests whilst the exchange was processing.

    Director had previously announced a big posturing pose that anyone caught misusing the Internet at work would be sacked.

    So he ended up sacking his best and most experienced system tester, slowed the tests down as he had lost 15 years of experience, and the chap was working at a competitor for £1200 a week 7 days later.

    Overly dogmatic are a bad thing,
    If he'd been doing cocaine at work, would that be OK because he's a good worker? If he came to work drinks wearing an SS uniform, etc...

    It's not overly dogmatic to expect basic standards of decency from people while they're at work.
    It depends on your view of "basic standards of decency" in the context, doesn't it? And how sanctions should be graduated.

    In this case it was a Saturday, and no one else was there, and it delayed a new release (normal routine 1 release per 8-10 months) of the main product of a £100m business by some weeks. Detected via log files.

    My judgement in that case looking back (and for an occurrence now) would be a final written warning.

    As for SS uniform at work drinks - that also depends imo. Perhaps it would be themed around The Producers or Allo Allo. Personally I don't have much of a problem with satirising Nazis; laughing at them is an important part of taking them sufficiently serious imo - ditto similar groups on the far left. A "Producers" for Putin would be interesting, with that huge long table. Or perhaps for Iran.

    Doing cocaine is perhaps in a different category, as it is criminal under the law of the land - up to 7 years for possession. Viewing pornography is not criminal. Also drugs have an impact on work.
    My point was there's simply some stuff you don't do at work. The fact that you're trying to find possible excuses for someone turning up in SS garb says everything you need to know about the kind of contortions you'll go to in order to claim that watching porn in the workplace isn't a sackable offence.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    edited April 2022

    I’d get sacked if I watched porn at work

    I've watched porn at work, homemade porn as well, wholly, exclusively, and necessarily for work, and write a detailed report on such things.

    The joys of supervising bankers (sic).
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,087
    edited April 2022

    nova said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Do people think he should? Is the crime looking at porn on a mobile phone or doing it in parliament? I can see why Angela Rayner could feel offended but I struggle to see who the hapless Neil Parish has upset unless he shared the film with someone inappropriate
    It is not, to my mind, a resigning matter. I think it appropriate he should face a party consequence, and possibly even some as an MP, since watching porn whilst you are supposed to be at work brings both into disrepute (maintaining high standards is not merely an issue of if you have upset someone) and would result in a warning or some disciplinary for others, but resigning over it would be very disproportionate.
    A quick Google suggests most employers will consider it gross misconduct even if other's don't see you.

    Given that he's doing it in a semi-public environment, with female colleagues around him, I'd say it would be a sackable offence most places.

    When you consider that he's (naïve I know), meant to be representing his constituents in Parliament, I'd say he should be held to pretty high standards.
    I won't comment on Neil Parish, as I know him and have worked with him on various issues - we'll see what comes out.

    Molre broadly, there are two separate issues, aren't there? One is pursuing private entertainment while sitting in the Chamber - would apply equally if the MP was watching football or playing Wordle. The other is that although watching porn privately is undoubtedly quite common (not sure if there are reliable figures?), it's not universal and it upsets a significant number of people to be forced to see it by sitting next to someone (at work, on a bus, etc.).

    The first issue is not a resigning matter - as I said yesterday, MPs just don't listen riveted to every word in a debate, and everyone in the House knows that. It would however be expected that they do work stuff - answer constituents, look up issues, etc. - so I'd expect an MP spotted watching football in the Chamber to just get a warning from the whips to concentrate on the job.

    The second issue is more serious, and at the least constitutes reckless disregard for the feelings of colleagues, or astonishing ignorance of how they might feel. That probably is a matter for permanent loss of the whip, and perhaps resignation.
    I write as an ex-civil servant. If you were caught watching porn at work, you'd expect to face a charge of gross misconduct and be out on your ear. By definition, being caught means someone has seen you doing it. If you're doing it on a private phone and nobody sees you doing it, then nobody knows. If it's a work phone, whether you're caught by observation or through IT surveillance, then you deserve to be sacked for gross stupidity as well as misconduct. What you do out of work is, of course, none of your employer's business, as long as it's legal.

    I don't see why it should be any different for MPs, who are also servants of the people.
    It was instant dismissal for this offence at the last firm I worked for.

    We had a branch office in Miami where a routine IT check discovered Playboy was the most visited site. The branch was closed down overnite and as far as I know everyone was sacked.

    I'm not saying this is necessarily right but the firm was clearly taking no chances with its reputation. Obviously the HoC doesn't have much of a reputation, so maybe things are different there but I think the zero-tolerance rule is pretty widespread elsewhere.
    That would be unlawful in the UK for UK staff, surely, unless you could prove the gross misconduct of each individual staff member?

    I can't see "sacked because we believe they all did it" standing up for long at an Employment Tribunal.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,281

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW – England #LocalElections2022 Voting Intention:

    LAB 47%
    CON 34%
    LD 10%
    GRN 4%
    IND/OTH 6%

    https://www.survation.com/labour-maintains-lead-over-conservatives/

    No chance. Absolute fantasy polling if that’s poll % on night.

    I was telling myself, no polling company would be daft enough to try one of these.
    I assume those are the unadjusted figures, because most of the Tory shires aren't voting next Thursday. That's why the BBC and Rallings/Thrasher have to calculate the projected national share.
  • I’d get sacked if I watched porn at work

    Dont you work from home?
    Only sometimes.
  • biggles said:

    nova said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Do people think he should? Is the crime looking at porn on a mobile phone or doing it in parliament? I can see why Angela Rayner could feel offended but I struggle to see who the hapless Neil Parish has upset unless he shared the film with someone inappropriate
    It is not, to my mind, a resigning matter. I think it appropriate he should face a party consequence, and possibly even some as an MP, since watching porn whilst you are supposed to be at work brings both into disrepute (maintaining high standards is not merely an issue of if you have upset someone) and would result in a warning or some disciplinary for others, but resigning over it would be very disproportionate.
    A quick Google suggests most employers will consider it gross misconduct even if other's don't see you.

    Given that he's doing it in a semi-public environment, with female colleagues around him, I'd say it would be a sackable offence most places.

    When you consider that he's (naïve I know), meant to be representing his constituents in Parliament, I'd say he should be held to pretty high standards.
    I won't comment on Neil Parish, as I know him and have worked with him on various issues - we'll see what comes out.

    Molre broadly, there are two separate issues, aren't there? One is pursuing private entertainment while sitting in the Chamber - would apply equally if the MP was watching football or playing Wordle. The other is that although watching porn privately is undoubtedly quite common (not sure if there are reliable figures?), it's not universal and it upsets a significant number of people to be forced to see it by sitting next to someone (at work, on a bus, etc.).

    The first issue is not a resigning matter - as I said yesterday, MPs just don't listen riveted to every word in a debate, and everyone in the House knows that. It would however be expected that they do work stuff - answer constituents, look up issues, etc. - so I'd expect an MP spotted watching football in the Chamber to just get a warning from the whips to concentrate on the job.

    The second issue is more serious, and at the least constitutes reckless disregard for the feelings of colleagues, or astonishing ignorance of how they might feel. That probably is a matter for permanent loss of the whip, and perhaps resignation.
    I write as an ex-civil servant. If you were caught watching porn at work, you'd expect to face a charge of gross misconduct and be out on your ear. By definition, being caught means someone has seen you doing it. If you're doing it on a private phone and nobody sees you doing it, then nobody knows. If it's a work phone, whether you're caught by observation or through IT surveillance, then you deserve to be sacked for gross stupidity as well as misconduct. What you do out of work is, of course, none of your employer's business, as long as it's legal.

    I don't see why it should be any different for MPs, who are also servants of the people.
    IT surveillance is the interesting bit. The House authorities could quite easily find out every member who’d done it on work wifi ever. Now, as many have said, doing it in private on word wifi if more a warning sort of offence (unless it’s persistent) but it would stop anyone else doing it over night.

    Would make an interesting FOI mind, to ask for the numbers….
    I once had my office PC checked by IT because my Head of Department thought I'd been looking at porn. I hadn't. He'd jumped to the wrong conclusion. I do know for sure that if there had been a single suspect image or site visited my feet would not have touched the ground.

    Different for MPs, is it?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,461
    biggles said:

    nova said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Do people think he should? Is the crime looking at porn on a mobile phone or doing it in parliament? I can see why Angela Rayner could feel offended but I struggle to see who the hapless Neil Parish has upset unless he shared the film with someone inappropriate
    It is not, to my mind, a resigning matter. I think it appropriate he should face a party consequence, and possibly even some as an MP, since watching porn whilst you are supposed to be at work brings both into disrepute (maintaining high standards is not merely an issue of if you have upset someone) and would result in a warning or some disciplinary for others, but resigning over it would be very disproportionate.
    A quick Google suggests most employers will consider it gross misconduct even if other's don't see you.

    Given that he's doing it in a semi-public environment, with female colleagues around him, I'd say it would be a sackable offence most places.

    When you consider that he's (naïve I know), meant to be representing his constituents in Parliament, I'd say he should be held to pretty high standards.
    I won't comment on Neil Parish, as I know him and have worked with him on various issues - we'll see what comes out.

    Molre broadly, there are two separate issues, aren't there? One is pursuing private entertainment while sitting in the Chamber - would apply equally if the MP was watching football or playing Wordle. The other is that although watching porn privately is undoubtedly quite common (not sure if there are reliable figures?), it's not universal and it upsets a significant number of people to be forced to see it by sitting next to someone (at work, on a bus, etc.).

    The first issue is not a resigning matter - as I said yesterday, MPs just don't listen riveted to every word in a debate, and everyone in the House knows that. It would however be expected that they do work stuff - answer constituents, look up issues, etc. - so I'd expect an MP spotted watching football in the Chamber to just get a warning from the whips to concentrate on the job.

    The second issue is more serious, and at the least constitutes reckless disregard for the feelings of colleagues, or astonishing ignorance of how they might feel. That probably is a matter for permanent loss of the whip, and perhaps resignation.
    I write as an ex-civil servant. If you were caught watching porn at work, you'd expect to face a charge of gross misconduct and be out on your ear. By definition, being caught means someone has seen you doing it. If you're doing it on a private phone and nobody sees you doing it, then nobody knows. If it's a work phone, whether you're caught by observation or through IT surveillance, then you deserve to be sacked for gross stupidity as well as misconduct. What you do out of work is, of course, none of your employer's business, as long as it's legal.

    I don't see why it should be any different for MPs, who are also servants of the people.
    IT surveillance is the interesting bit. The House authorities could quite easily find out every member who’d done it on work wifi ever. Now, as many have said, doing it in private on word wifi if more a warning sort of offence (unless it’s persistent) but it would stop anyone else doing it over night.

    Would make an interesting FOI mind, to ask for the numbers….
    As I suggested, anybody who works either for, or in, government who accesses porn through government IT systems should be sacked for gross stupidity as well as misconduct. Wasn't Damien Green's downfall partly to do with finding porn on his work computer?
  • MattW said:

    nova said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Do people think he should? Is the crime looking at porn on a mobile phone or doing it in parliament? I can see why Angela Rayner could feel offended but I struggle to see who the hapless Neil Parish has upset unless he shared the film with someone inappropriate
    It is not, to my mind, a resigning matter. I think it appropriate he should face a party consequence, and possibly even some as an MP, since watching porn whilst you are supposed to be at work brings both into disrepute (maintaining high standards is not merely an issue of if you have upset someone) and would result in a warning or some disciplinary for others, but resigning over it would be very disproportionate.
    A quick Google suggests most employers will consider it gross misconduct even if other's don't see you.

    Given that he's doing it in a semi-public environment, with female colleagues around him, I'd say it would be a sackable offence most places.

    When you consider that he's (naïve I know), meant to be representing his constituents in Parliament, I'd say he should be held to pretty high standards.
    I won't comment on Neil Parish, as I know him and have worked with him on various issues - we'll see what comes out.

    Molre broadly, there are two separate issues, aren't there? One is pursuing private entertainment while sitting in the Chamber - would apply equally if the MP was watching football or playing Wordle. The other is that although watching porn privately is undoubtedly quite common (not sure if there are reliable figures?), it's not universal and it upsets a significant number of people to be forced to see it by sitting next to someone (at work, on a bus, etc.).

    The first issue is not a resigning matter - as I said yesterday, MPs just don't listen riveted to every word in a debate, and everyone in the House knows that. It would however be expected that they do work stuff - answer constituents, look up issues, etc. - so I'd expect an MP spotted watching football in the Chamber to just get a warning from the whips to concentrate on the job.

    The second issue is more serious, and at the least constitutes reckless disregard for the feelings of colleagues, or astonishing ignorance of how they might feel. That probably is a matter for permanent loss of the whip, and perhaps resignation.
    I write as an ex-civil servant. If you were caught watching porn at work, you'd expect to face a charge of gross misconduct and be out on your ear. By definition, being caught means someone has seen you doing it. If you're doing it on a private phone and nobody sees you doing it, then nobody knows. If it's a work phone, whether you're caught by observation or through IT surveillance, then you deserve to be sacked for gross stupidity as well as misconduct. What you do out of work is, of course, none of your employer's business, as long as it's legal.

    I don't see why it should be any different for MPs, who are also servants of the people.
    It was instant dismissal for this offence at the last firm I worked for.

    We had a branch office in Miami where a routine IT check discovered Playboy was the most visited site. The branch was closed down overnite and as far as I know everyone was sacked.

    I'm not saying this is necessarily right but the firm was clearly taking no chances with its reputation. Obviously the HoC doesn't have much of a reputation, so maybe things are different there but I think the zero-tolerance rule is pretty widespread elsewhere.
    That would be unlawful in the UK for UK staff, surely, unless you could prove the gross misconduct of each individual staff member?

    I can't see "sacked because we believe they all did it" standing up for long at an Employment Tribunal.
    I don't know the details, Matt. All I know is that Branch was closed overnite and none of the employees worked for the company again.

    My guess is that the abuse was so egregious that nobody wanted to make a case of it, but that's just guesswork.
  • I’d get sacked if I watched porn at work

    Dont you work from home?
    Presumably his wife would sack him.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,461

    biggles said:

    nova said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Do people think he should? Is the crime looking at porn on a mobile phone or doing it in parliament? I can see why Angela Rayner could feel offended but I struggle to see who the hapless Neil Parish has upset unless he shared the film with someone inappropriate
    It is not, to my mind, a resigning matter. I think it appropriate he should face a party consequence, and possibly even some as an MP, since watching porn whilst you are supposed to be at work brings both into disrepute (maintaining high standards is not merely an issue of if you have upset someone) and would result in a warning or some disciplinary for others, but resigning over it would be very disproportionate.
    A quick Google suggests most employers will consider it gross misconduct even if other's don't see you.

    Given that he's doing it in a semi-public environment, with female colleagues around him, I'd say it would be a sackable offence most places.

    When you consider that he's (naïve I know), meant to be representing his constituents in Parliament, I'd say he should be held to pretty high standards.
    I won't comment on Neil Parish, as I know him and have worked with him on various issues - we'll see what comes out.

    Molre broadly, there are two separate issues, aren't there? One is pursuing private entertainment while sitting in the Chamber - would apply equally if the MP was watching football or playing Wordle. The other is that although watching porn privately is undoubtedly quite common (not sure if there are reliable figures?), it's not universal and it upsets a significant number of people to be forced to see it by sitting next to someone (at work, on a bus, etc.).

    The first issue is not a resigning matter - as I said yesterday, MPs just don't listen riveted to every word in a debate, and everyone in the House knows that. It would however be expected that they do work stuff - answer constituents, look up issues, etc. - so I'd expect an MP spotted watching football in the Chamber to just get a warning from the whips to concentrate on the job.

    The second issue is more serious, and at the least constitutes reckless disregard for the feelings of colleagues, or astonishing ignorance of how they might feel. That probably is a matter for permanent loss of the whip, and perhaps resignation.
    I write as an ex-civil servant. If you were caught watching porn at work, you'd expect to face a charge of gross misconduct and be out on your ear. By definition, being caught means someone has seen you doing it. If you're doing it on a private phone and nobody sees you doing it, then nobody knows. If it's a work phone, whether you're caught by observation or through IT surveillance, then you deserve to be sacked for gross stupidity as well as misconduct. What you do out of work is, of course, none of your employer's business, as long as it's legal.

    I don't see why it should be any different for MPs, who are also servants of the people.
    IT surveillance is the interesting bit. The House authorities could quite easily find out every member who’d done it on work wifi ever. Now, as many have said, doing it in private on word wifi if more a warning sort of offence (unless it’s persistent) but it would stop anyone else doing it over night.

    Would make an interesting FOI mind, to ask for the numbers….
    I once had my office PC checked by IT because my Head of Department thought I'd been looking at porn. I hadn't. He'd jumped to the wrong conclusion. I do know for sure that if there had been a single suspect image or site visited my feet would not have touched the ground.

    Different for MPs, is it?
    Had you been googling Scunthorpe?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    LAB: 42% (=)
    CON: 33% (-2)
    LDM: 9% (=)
    SNP: 4% (=)
    GRN: 4% (+1)

    Via @Survation,
    Changes w/ 28-30 Mar.

    Good Poll for Labour. On those numbers they should easily Gain 800 Councillors next week.

    I forecast less than 300 gains.
    I don't think that's true, because the Conservatives don't have that many to lose: don't forget they only won 1,332 last time. You would seem to suggest that a "par" performance for Labour is for them to wipe out 70% of remaining Conservative councillors.
    The expectation next week is a Labour triumph and a Conservative wipeout.

    I suspect it will be more subtle and confused than that: the Conservatives will do badly whilst Labour disappoint.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,281
    edited April 2022
    Interesting point of view

    "Home-working is a middle-class Remainer cult
    The Civil Service has fallen prey to an ideology that worships employee satisfaction to the detriment of everything else
    Camilla Tominey" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/04/29/home-working-middle-class-remainer-cult/
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 4,339

    I’d get sacked if I watched porn at work

    I've watched porn at work, homemade porn as well, wholly, exclusively, and necessarily for work, and write a detailed report on such things.

    The joys of supervising bankers (sic).
    Blimey, the fit and proper persons test has moved on a bit since I last saw one.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting point of view

    "Home-working is a middle-class Remainer cult
    The Civil Service has fallen prey to an ideology that worships employee satisfaction to the detriment of everything else
    Camilla Tominey" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/04/29/home-working-middle-class-remainer-cult/

    What an idiot. It’s depressing that fools like this make a living dishing out bile.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 4,339
    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting point of view

    "Home-working is a middle-class Remainer cult
    The Civil Service has fallen prey to an ideology that worships employee satisfaction to the detriment of everything else
    Camilla Tominey" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/04/29/home-working-middle-class-remainer-cult/

    If by “interesting” you mean “utter bollocks”, then I agree.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    MattW said:

    nova said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Do people think he should? Is the crime looking at porn on a mobile phone or doing it in parliament? I can see why Angela Rayner could feel offended but I struggle to see who the hapless Neil Parish has upset unless he shared the film with someone inappropriate
    It is not, to my mind, a resigning matter. I think it appropriate he should face a party consequence, and possibly even some as an MP, since watching porn whilst you are supposed to be at work brings both into disrepute (maintaining high standards is not merely an issue of if you have upset someone) and would result in a warning or some disciplinary for others, but resigning over it would be very disproportionate.
    A quick Google suggests most employers will consider it gross misconduct even if other's don't see you.

    Given that he's doing it in a semi-public environment, with female colleagues around him, I'd say it would be a sackable offence most places.

    When you consider that he's (naïve I know), meant to be representing his constituents in Parliament, I'd say he should be held to pretty high standards.
    I won't comment on Neil Parish, as I know him and have worked with him on various issues - we'll see what comes out.

    Molre broadly, there are two separate issues, aren't there? One is pursuing private entertainment while sitting in the Chamber - would apply equally if the MP was watching football or playing Wordle. The other is that although watching porn privately is undoubtedly quite common (not sure if there are reliable figures?), it's not universal and it upsets a significant number of people to be forced to see it by sitting next to someone (at work, on a bus, etc.).

    The first issue is not a resigning matter - as I said yesterday, MPs just don't listen riveted to every word in a debate, and everyone in the House knows that. It would however be expected that they do work stuff - answer constituents, look up issues, etc. - so I'd expect an MP spotted watching football in the Chamber to just get a warning from the whips to concentrate on the job.

    The second issue is more serious, and at the least constitutes reckless disregard for the feelings of colleagues, or astonishing ignorance of how they might feel. That probably is a matter for permanent loss of the whip, and perhaps resignation.
    I write as an ex-civil servant. If you were caught watching porn at work, you'd expect to face a charge of gross misconduct and be out on your ear. By definition, being caught means someone has seen you doing it. If you're doing it on a private phone and nobody sees you doing it, then nobody knows. If it's a work phone, whether you're caught by observation or through IT surveillance, then you deserve to be sacked for gross stupidity as well as misconduct. What you do out of work is, of course, none of your employer's business, as long as it's legal.

    I don't see why it should be any different for MPs, who are also servants of the people.
    It was instant dismissal for this offence at the last firm I worked for.

    We had a branch office in Miami where a routine IT check discovered Playboy was the most visited site. The branch was closed down overnite and as far as I know everyone was sacked.

    I'm not saying this is necessarily right but the firm was clearly taking no chances with its reputation. Obviously the HoC doesn't have much of a reputation, so maybe things are different there but I think the zero-tolerance rule is pretty widespread elsewhere.
    That would be unlawful in the UK for UK staff, surely, unless you could prove the gross misconduct of each individual staff member?

    I can't see "sacked because we believe they all did it" standing up for long at an Employment Tribunal.
    I don't know the details, Matt. All I know is that Branch was closed overnite and none of the employees worked for the company again.

    My guess is that the abuse was so egregious that nobody wanted to make a case of it, but that's just guesswork.
    In America being able to fire people at short notice without reason or comeback is fairly standard.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    I’d get sacked if I watched porn at work

    Many moons ago, I got *paid* to view porn at work.

    At company Y, we were developing internet access devices, which had a built-in web browser by a third party. This was in the 1990s, when Internet standards were young.

    We had a very large (for us) Japanese customer, and they would report pages would not load or render correctly. We had an excellent Japanese agent who would look at the problem pages, try to work out the problem, and reduce it to the minimum by stripping out as many images and redundant HTML/CSS/whatever as necessary.

    Sometimes, however, he could not do so, and he would give us either a URL or a capture of the relevant pages. And it was frequently hardcore porn/anime. So we (often I) would have to get permission from a manager, take my computers into a separate room, and try to work out what the problem was...

    The interesting thing was that it was obvious that some of these pages were from corporate servers of various Japanese institutions ...

    At least the porn was better than the dancing bees (don't ask...)
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
    Leon said:

    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America

    My first American driving experience was driving from Los Angeles to Palm Springs, Getting out of LA was an experience - terrible roads.

    You don't need a car in Vegas but there's nothing like cruising along the Strip and you can access some of the very good restaurants to be found in Henderson and the other Vegas suburbs.
    The roads have been magnificent throughout this trip: Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi (Louisiana next and last). You really do have to drive in America (outside a few eastern cities), but they make sure driving is easy and smooth. The maintenance is immaculate. I have barely seen a pot hole in a week of driving. It puts the UK to shame, in that department
    My first US road trip was picking up a rental in Atlantic City NJ, drive to Cape May, the Cape Charles, then New Bern, Charleston, Beaufort SC, Savannah, across the Okefenokee Swamp, Tallahasee, Mobile, Norlins, up the Natchez, Oxford MS, Nashville, Daniel Boone National Forest, Ashville, up the Blue Ridge to Stanton VA, then Cumberland MD, following the mountains all the way up to Watertown, NY, then across to Montpelier, Bangor Maine, and down to Concord MA, then to Albany and down the Hudson, back to Atlantic City. Took a while, but I was between jobs. :D
    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America

    My first American driving experience was driving from Los Angeles to Palm Springs, Getting out of LA was an experience - terrible roads.

    You don't need a car in Vegas but there's nothing like cruising along the Strip and you can access some of the very good restaurants to be found in Henderson and the other Vegas suburbs.
    The roads have been magnificent throughout this trip: Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi (Louisiana next and last). You really do have to drive in America (outside a few eastern cities), but they make sure driving is easy and smooth. The maintenance is immaculate. I have barely seen a pot hole in a week of driving. It puts the UK to shame, in that department
    My first US road trip was picking up a rental in Atlantic City NJ, drive to Cape May, the Cape Charles, then New Bern, Charleston, Beaufort SC, Savannah, across the Okefenokee Swamp, Tallahasee, Mobile, Norlins, up the Natchez, Oxford MS, Nashville, Daniel Boone National Forest, Ashville, up the Blue Ridge to Stanton VA, then Cumberland MD, following the mountains all the way up to Watertown, NY, then across to Montpelier, Bangor Maine, and down to Concord MA, then to Albany and down the Hudson, back to Atlantic City. Took a while, but I was between jobs. :D
    That sounds EPIC

    This sojourn has reminded me what fun US road trips are

    They are so different to normal holidays. Every day something new. Something different. Every morning you jump in the car and you get a surge of energy: ooh what’s around the corner

    There’s also a melancholy. The endless road. But that’s all part of it. There’s a melancholy in staring at the same Tuscan swimming pool for a fortnight

    And yes - @TOPPING - you REALLY need a car and the ability to drive
    You mention the melancholy. That comes with only having Country available on the radio for much of the way. I guess that has changed with satellite radio, but back in the day, I learnt every last lyric of the DJs favorites.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    I’d get sacked if I watched porn at work

    Many moons ago, I got *paid* to view porn at work.

    At company Y, we were developing internet access devices, which had a built-in web browser by a third party. This was in the 1990s, when Internet standards were young.

    We had a very large (for us) Japanese customer, and they would report pages would not load or render correctly. We had an excellent Japanese agent who would look at the problem pages, try to work out the problem, and reduce it to the minimum by stripping out as many images and redundant HTML/CSS/whatever as necessary.

    Sometimes, however, he could not do so, and he would give us either a URL or a capture of the relevant pages. And it was frequently hardcore porn/anime. So we (often I) would have to get permission from a manager, take my computers into a separate room, and try to work out what the problem was...

    The interesting thing was that it was obvious that some of these pages were from corporate servers of various Japanese institutions ...

    At least the porn was better than the dancing bees (don't ask...)
    An impressively elaborate excuse. Did anyone buy it?
  • biggles said:

    nova said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Do people think he should? Is the crime looking at porn on a mobile phone or doing it in parliament? I can see why Angela Rayner could feel offended but I struggle to see who the hapless Neil Parish has upset unless he shared the film with someone inappropriate
    It is not, to my mind, a resigning matter. I think it appropriate he should face a party consequence, and possibly even some as an MP, since watching porn whilst you are supposed to be at work brings both into disrepute (maintaining high standards is not merely an issue of if you have upset someone) and would result in a warning or some disciplinary for others, but resigning over it would be very disproportionate.
    A quick Google suggests most employers will consider it gross misconduct even if other's don't see you.

    Given that he's doing it in a semi-public environment, with female colleagues around him, I'd say it would be a sackable offence most places.

    When you consider that he's (naïve I know), meant to be representing his constituents in Parliament, I'd say he should be held to pretty high standards.
    I won't comment on Neil Parish, as I know him and have worked with him on various issues - we'll see what comes out.

    Molre broadly, there are two separate issues, aren't there? One is pursuing private entertainment while sitting in the Chamber - would apply equally if the MP was watching football or playing Wordle. The other is that although watching porn privately is undoubtedly quite common (not sure if there are reliable figures?), it's not universal and it upsets a significant number of people to be forced to see it by sitting next to someone (at work, on a bus, etc.).

    The first issue is not a resigning matter - as I said yesterday, MPs just don't listen riveted to every word in a debate, and everyone in the House knows that. It would however be expected that they do work stuff - answer constituents, look up issues, etc. - so I'd expect an MP spotted watching football in the Chamber to just get a warning from the whips to concentrate on the job.

    The second issue is more serious, and at the least constitutes reckless disregard for the feelings of colleagues, or astonishing ignorance of how they might feel. That probably is a matter for permanent loss of the whip, and perhaps resignation.
    I write as an ex-civil servant. If you were caught watching porn at work, you'd expect to face a charge of gross misconduct and be out on your ear. By definition, being caught means someone has seen you doing it. If you're doing it on a private phone and nobody sees you doing it, then nobody knows. If it's a work phone, whether you're caught by observation or through IT surveillance, then you deserve to be sacked for gross stupidity as well as misconduct. What you do out of work is, of course, none of your employer's business, as long as it's legal.

    I don't see why it should be any different for MPs, who are also servants of the people.
    IT surveillance is the interesting bit. The House authorities could quite easily find out every member who’d done it on work wifi ever. Now, as many have said, doing it in private on word wifi if more a warning sort of offence (unless it’s persistent) but it would stop anyone else doing it over night.

    Would make an interesting FOI mind, to ask for the numbers….
    I once had my office PC checked by IT because my Head of Department thought I'd been looking at porn. I hadn't. He'd jumped to the wrong conclusion. I do know for sure that if there had been a single suspect image or site visited my feet would not have touched the ground.

    Different for MPs, is it?
    Had you been googling Scunthorpe?
    Lol! No, and I wan't trying to find out who put the T in Typhoo either. No, it was an entirely innocent exhange of pleasanteries with a friend but he caught a glimpse of it and assumed the worst. The senaky bit was that he didn't just confront me but got security involved first, but then he was like that.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    nova said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Do people think he should? Is the crime looking at porn on a mobile phone or doing it in parliament? I can see why Angela Rayner could feel offended but I struggle to see who the hapless Neil Parish has upset unless he shared the film with someone inappropriate
    It is not, to my mind, a resigning matter. I think it appropriate he should face a party consequence, and possibly even some as an MP, since watching porn whilst you are supposed to be at work brings both into disrepute (maintaining high standards is not merely an issue of if you have upset someone) and would result in a warning or some disciplinary for others, but resigning over it would be very disproportionate.
    A quick Google suggests most employers will consider it gross misconduct even if other's don't see you.

    Given that he's doing it in a semi-public environment, with female colleagues around him, I'd say it would be a sackable offence most places.

    When you consider that he's (naïve I know), meant to be representing his constituents in Parliament, I'd say he should be held to pretty high standards.
    I won't comment on Neil Parish, as I know him and have worked with him on various issues - we'll see what comes out.

    Molre broadly, there are two separate issues, aren't there? One is pursuing private entertainment while sitting in the Chamber - would apply equally if the MP was watching football or playing Wordle. The other is that although watching porn privately is undoubtedly quite common (not sure if there are reliable figures?), it's not universal and it upsets a significant number of people to be forced to see it by sitting next to someone (at work, on a bus, etc.).

    The first issue is not a resigning matter - as I said yesterday, MPs just don't listen riveted to every word in a debate, and everyone in the House knows that. It would however be expected that they do work stuff - answer constituents, look up issues, etc. - so I'd expect an MP spotted watching football in the Chamber to just get a warning from the whips to concentrate on the job.

    The second issue is more serious, and at the least constitutes reckless disregard for the feelings of colleagues, or astonishing ignorance of how they might feel. That probably is a matter for permanent loss of the whip, and perhaps resignation.
    I write as an ex-civil servant. If you were caught watching porn at work, you'd expect to face a charge of gross misconduct and be out on your ear. By definition, being caught means someone has seen you doing it. If you're doing it on a private phone and nobody sees you doing it, then nobody knows. If it's a work phone, whether you're caught by observation or through IT surveillance, then you deserve to be sacked for gross stupidity as well as misconduct. What you do out of work is, of course, none of your employer's business, as long as it's legal.

    I don't see why it should be any different for MPs, who are also servants of the people.
    It was instant dismissal for this offence at the last firm I worked for.

    We had a branch office in Miami where a routine IT check discovered Playboy was the most visited site. The branch was closed down overnite and as far as I know everyone was sacked.

    I'm not saying this is necessarily right but the firm was clearly taking no chances with its reputation. Obviously the HoC doesn't have much of a reputation, so maybe things are different there but I think the zero-tolerance rule is pretty widespread elsewhere.
    That would be unlawful in the UK for UK staff, surely, unless you could prove the gross misconduct of each individual staff member?

    I can't see "sacked because we believe they all did it" standing up for long at an Employment Tribunal.
    I don't know the details, Matt. All I know is that Branch was closed overnite and none of the employees worked for the company again.

    My guess is that the abuse was so egregious that nobody wanted to make a case of it, but that's just guesswork.
    In America being able to fire people at short notice without reason or comeback is fairly standard.
    It's called an 'at will' contract. Most contracts outside of union shops are just that.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    biggles said:

    nova said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Do people think he should? Is the crime looking at porn on a mobile phone or doing it in parliament? I can see why Angela Rayner could feel offended but I struggle to see who the hapless Neil Parish has upset unless he shared the film with someone inappropriate
    It is not, to my mind, a resigning matter. I think it appropriate he should face a party consequence, and possibly even some as an MP, since watching porn whilst you are supposed to be at work brings both into disrepute (maintaining high standards is not merely an issue of if you have upset someone) and would result in a warning or some disciplinary for others, but resigning over it would be very disproportionate.
    A quick Google suggests most employers will consider it gross misconduct even if other's don't see you.

    Given that he's doing it in a semi-public environment, with female colleagues around him, I'd say it would be a sackable offence most places.

    When you consider that he's (naïve I know), meant to be representing his constituents in Parliament, I'd say he should be held to pretty high standards.
    I won't comment on Neil Parish, as I know him and have worked with him on various issues - we'll see what comes out.

    Molre broadly, there are two separate issues, aren't there? One is pursuing private entertainment while sitting in the Chamber - would apply equally if the MP was watching football or playing Wordle. The other is that although watching porn privately is undoubtedly quite common (not sure if there are reliable figures?), it's not universal and it upsets a significant number of people to be forced to see it by sitting next to someone (at work, on a bus, etc.).

    The first issue is not a resigning matter - as I said yesterday, MPs just don't listen riveted to every word in a debate, and everyone in the House knows that. It would however be expected that they do work stuff - answer constituents, look up issues, etc. - so I'd expect an MP spotted watching football in the Chamber to just get a warning from the whips to concentrate on the job.

    The second issue is more serious, and at the least constitutes reckless disregard for the feelings of colleagues, or astonishing ignorance of how they might feel. That probably is a matter for permanent loss of the whip, and perhaps resignation.
    I write as an ex-civil servant. If you were caught watching porn at work, you'd expect to face a charge of gross misconduct and be out on your ear. By definition, being caught means someone has seen you doing it. If you're doing it on a private phone and nobody sees you doing it, then nobody knows. If it's a work phone, whether you're caught by observation or through IT surveillance, then you deserve to be sacked for gross stupidity as well as misconduct. What you do out of work is, of course, none of your employer's business, as long as it's legal.

    I don't see why it should be any different for MPs, who are also servants of the people.
    IT surveillance is the interesting bit. The House authorities could quite easily find out every member who’d done it on work wifi ever. Now, as many have said, doing it in private on word wifi if more a warning sort of offence (unless it’s persistent) but it would stop anyone else doing it over night.

    Would make an interesting FOI mind, to ask for the numbers….
    I once had my office PC checked by IT because my Head of Department thought I'd been looking at porn. I hadn't. He'd jumped to the wrong conclusion. I do know for sure that if there had been a single suspect image or site visited my feet would not have touched the ground.

    Different for MPs, is it?
    Once again we come back to the thorny issue of MPs not being employed. Perhaps they should be, but it would need careful consideration.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739

    We had a branch office in Miami where a routine IT check discovered Playboy was the most visited site. The branch was closed down overnite and as far as I know everyone was sacked.

    At one of our offices in PA we found someone looking at porn sites, 8 hours continuously, from 10pm to 6am.

    The night security guard
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    What I like about the Neil Parish story is this:

    "In an interview with the Times, Mr Parish's wife, Sue Parish, said the allegation was "very embarrassing" and described her husband as "quite a normal guy and "a lovely person".

    She said she did not see the attraction of pornography and understood why the women who made the allegation were upset.

    "I'm a woman," she was quoted say saying. "Hence why the women were so cross. It's degrading. It's demanding. But on the other hand it takes two to tango. There must be women posing for all this."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61276319

    "Posing" is a very, um...quaint way of phrasing it. One wonders if Mr. Parish's wife realises there is (not necessarily, but generally) a lot more to porn these days, it's not all black and white Victorian ankle flashes in magazines. Or something.

    Separately, it's probably entirely apocryphal (and tame compared to other people's stories), but I worked for the Scottish Government at one point for a short period, and was told the story of someone in one of the policy departments desperately trying to find out some information on gender equality legislation, but hastily typed "Sex Act" into Google on their work computer. Cue awkward discussion with IT! Made me laugh anyway.
    kle4 said:

    Apparently the largest political party in the British Virgin Islands is the Virgin Islands Party. Talk about lazy.

    What's the opposition called? The Other Virgin Islands Party?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Boris sent to prison.

    Sadly, not that Boris.

    Interesting suggestion from @CharonQC (founder of BPP Law school):

    The Boris Becker jailing sentence suggests that some Judges need to read a book on Sentencing and why prison is not always appropriate. Community Service to teach youngsters to play Tennis would have been FAR better! But such is the ENGLISH legal system. Absurd. Annoyed me.
    https://twitter.com/Charonqc/status/1520072685673398272
    That's wrong IMO, though I haven't read much on it. Hasn't Becker lied and prevaricated throughout this process, over millions of pounds?

    If you can go to jail for six months for shoplifting up to £200, and seven years for above that (1), then I don't see why what he's done is much different. Lord Brocket got five years for his insurance fraud 25 years ago.

    Becker's famous. I get it. But I don't think that such fraud is victimless: he owed £50 million. Whilst many of those creditors might be big, faceless banks, others might be small mom-and-pop operations, for whom a small amount regained through the bankruptcy process might be the difference between solvency and bankruptcy for themselves.

    (1): https://www.inbrief.co.uk/offences/shoplifting/
    Yes - fair points.

    I guess there is a strong argument for a combination of the two - 18 months in prison (/2) then several years of community service.
    One obvious comparison is with possibly the greatest jockey of all time, Lester Piggott, who was also imprisoned for hiding assets. He had reached an agreement over back taxes but paid the Inland Revenue with a cheque drawn on an account he had not declared.
  • MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Boris sent to prison.

    Sadly, not that Boris.

    Interesting suggestion from @CharonQC (founder of BPP Law school):

    The Boris Becker jailing sentence suggests that some Judges need to read a book on Sentencing and why prison is not always appropriate. Community Service to teach youngsters to play Tennis would have been FAR better! But such is the ENGLISH legal system. Absurd. Annoyed me.
    https://twitter.com/Charonqc/status/1520072685673398272
    That's wrong IMO, though I haven't read much on it. Hasn't Becker lied and prevaricated throughout this process, over millions of pounds?

    If you can go to jail for six months for shoplifting up to £200, and seven years for above that (1), then I don't see why what he's done is much different. Lord Brocket got five years for his insurance fraud 25 years ago.

    Becker's famous. I get it. But I don't think that such fraud is victimless: he owed £50 million. Whilst many of those creditors might be big, faceless banks, others might be small mom-and-pop operations, for whom a small amount regained through the bankruptcy process might be the difference between solvency and bankruptcy for themselves.

    (1): https://www.inbrief.co.uk/offences/shoplifting/
    Yes - fair points.

    I guess there is a strong argument for a combination of the two - 18 months in prison (/2) then several years of community service.
    One obvious comparison is with possibly the greatest jockey of all time, Lester Piggott, who was also imprisoned for hiding assets. He had reached an agreement over back taxes but paid the Inland Revenue with a cheque drawn on an account he had not declared.
    That's right. The view in the Department was that he was just taking the piss, so the usual compromises were not available to him.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Jonathan said:

    I’d get sacked if I watched porn at work

    Many moons ago, I got *paid* to view porn at work.

    At company Y, we were developing internet access devices, which had a built-in web browser by a third party. This was in the 1990s, when Internet standards were young.

    We had a very large (for us) Japanese customer, and they would report pages would not load or render correctly. We had an excellent Japanese agent who would look at the problem pages, try to work out the problem, and reduce it to the minimum by stripping out as many images and redundant HTML/CSS/whatever as necessary.

    Sometimes, however, he could not do so, and he would give us either a URL or a capture of the relevant pages. And it was frequently hardcore porn/anime. So we (often I) would have to get permission from a manager, take my computers into a separate room, and try to work out what the problem was...

    The interesting thing was that it was obvious that some of these pages were from corporate servers of various Japanese institutions ...

    At least the porn was better than the dancing bees (don't ask...)
    An impressively elaborate excuse. Did anyone buy it?
    :)

    It was very openly known; even joked about. It did not happen often; mainly due to our excellent agent. Personally, I think the company handled it excellently by the standards of the time. The work was done in a separate room, known by the seniors, and it was expected that you would find out the cause. I don't know how you'd deal with it nowadays - probably ignore the bugs.

    The problem was when the bug was in the rendering of an image.

    The odd thing was that even as a 20 year old, the first thing I would try to do was strip out all the images where I could. It was not a 'sexy' task.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 4,339
    Scott_xP said:

    We had a branch office in Miami where a routine IT check discovered Playboy was the most visited site. The branch was closed down overnite and as far as I know everyone was sacked.

    At one of our offices in PA we found someone looking at porn sites, 8 hours continuously, from 10pm to 6am.

    The night security guard
    At least they were standing to attention at their post and keeping a tight grip on things.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,281
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    At a laundromat in Natchez, Mississippi. The kindness and friendliness of Southerners remains incredible

    Did you park outside?

    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America
    There are about 5 cities in America where you can get by without a car.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926

    An issue that Ben Wallace might find tricky if he became PM:

    https://mailchi.mp/tortoisemedia/porking-up-2?e=484b7928c0

    This American-style pork barrel politics extends far beyond Ben Wallace, as your link makes clear. It is surely another sign of the debasement of our politics in the last couple of years. Will it affect Wallace? I doubt it; they are all at it, or at least a lot of them are.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149

    What I like about the Neil Parish story is this:

    "In an interview with the Times, Mr Parish's wife, Sue Parish, said the allegation was "very embarrassing" and described her husband as "quite a normal guy and "a lovely person".

    She said she did not see the attraction of pornography and understood why the women who made the allegation were upset.

    "I'm a woman," she was quoted say saying. "Hence why the women were so cross. It's degrading. It's demanding. But on the other hand it takes two to tango. There must be women posing for all this."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61276319

    "Posing" is a very, um...quaint way of phrasing it. One wonders if Mr. Parish's wife realises there is (not necessarily, but generally) a lot more to porn these days, it's not all black and white Victorian ankle flashes in magazines. Or something.

    Separately, it's probably entirely apocryphal (and tame compared to other people's stories), but I worked for the Scottish Government at one point for a short period, and was told the story of someone in one of the policy departments desperately trying to find out some information on gender equality legislation, but hastily typed "Sex Act" into Google on their work computer. Cue awkward discussion with IT! Made me laugh anyway.

    kle4 said:

    Apparently the largest political party in the British Virgin Islands is the Virgin Islands Party. Talk about lazy.

    What's the opposition called? The Other Virgin Islands Party?
    I was once in the position of writing a long analysis of matters sexual for a SG agency when I worked there. This was fairly innocuous stuff, but did involve research into some websites with much stronger stuff, even the academic ones. I took the precaution of a formal memo to ithe Head of IT with a cc to my line manager to warn him - he was delighted that someone had had the sense to do so, as the institution had a fairly sennsitive net nanny.

    This sensitivity was made clear when an email discussion with a professional colleague in a university brought the shutters down. I extricated it from IT and had a look - it was only on the third or fourth that I realised the problem was a topical and casual reference to Iraqi Scud missiles.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,242
    Leon said:

    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America

    My first American driving experience was driving from Los Angeles to Palm Springs, Getting out of LA was an experience - terrible roads.

    You don't need a car in Vegas but there's nothing like cruising along the Strip and you can access some of the very good restaurants to be found in Henderson and the other Vegas suburbs.
    The roads have been magnificent throughout this trip: Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi (Louisiana next and last). You really do have to drive in America (outside a few eastern cities), but they make sure driving is easy and smooth. The maintenance is immaculate. I have barely seen a pot hole in a week of driving. It puts the UK to shame, in that department
    My first US road trip was picking up a rental in Atlantic City NJ, drive to Cape May, the Cape Charles, then New Bern, Charleston, Beaufort SC, Savannah, across the Okefenokee Swamp, Tallahasee, Mobile, Norlins, up the Natchez, Oxford MS, Nashville, Daniel Boone National Forest, Ashville, up the Blue Ridge to Stanton VA, then Cumberland MD, following the mountains all the way up to Watertown, NY, then across to Montpelier, Bangor Maine, and down to Concord MA, then to Albany and down the Hudson, back to Atlantic City. Took a while, but I was between jobs. :D
    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America

    My first American driving experience was driving from Los Angeles to Palm Springs, Getting out of LA was an experience - terrible roads.

    You don't need a car in Vegas but there's nothing like cruising along the Strip and you can access some of the very good restaurants to be found in Henderson and the other Vegas suburbs.
    The roads have been magnificent throughout this trip: Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi (Louisiana next and last). You really do have to drive in America (outside a few eastern cities), but they make sure driving is easy and smooth. The maintenance is immaculate. I have barely seen a pot hole in a week of driving. It puts the UK to shame, in that department
    My first US road trip was picking up a rental in Atlantic City NJ, drive to Cape May, the Cape Charles, then New Bern, Charleston, Beaufort SC, Savannah, across the Okefenokee Swamp, Tallahasee, Mobile, Norlins, up the Natchez, Oxford MS, Nashville, Daniel Boone National Forest, Ashville, up the Blue Ridge to Stanton VA, then Cumberland MD, following the mountains all the way up to Watertown, NY, then across to Montpelier, Bangor Maine, and down to Concord MA, then to Albany and down the Hudson, back to Atlantic City. Took a while, but I was between jobs. :D
    That sounds EPIC

    This sojourn has reminded me what fun US road trips are

    They are so different to normal holidays. Every day something new. Something different. Every morning you jump in the car and you get a surge of energy: ooh what’s around the corner

    There’s also a melancholy. The endless road. But that’s all part of it. There’s a melancholy in staring at the same Tuscan swimming pool for a fortnight

    And yes - @TOPPING - you REALLY need a car and the ability to drive
    Have taken some epic road trips in the UK, doing my best to avoid cities & motorways, cruising through the countryside from outskirts of London as far as Edinburgh, Carlisle, Chester, Cromer, Stonehenge, Malvern, Lincoln and even fabled Hartlepool.

    My most memorable excursion in USA was when I moved to Seattle.

    Drove non-stop from Hammond, Louisiana to El Paso (except for gas & very early morning breakfast at Denny's next to the Alamo in San Antonio). Then up to Farmington, New Mexico, then from there past Monument Valley, Arizona to the Four Corners. Then up to Salt Lake City and across the Bonneville Salt Flats to Wendover, Nevada. Then up to Jackpot, NV on Idaho state line. Then along the Salmon River and down the Bitterroot Valley of Montana past Butte & Missoula, then to Coer d'Alene, Idaho. Then across WA State and over Snoqualmie Pass down to Seattle.

    Only fly in the ointment, was that Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait just as I began this drive. Seemed that every time I pulled into a gas station, the attendant was changing the price of gas on the sign - ever upward!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    tlg86 said:

    biggles said:

    nova said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Do people think he should? Is the crime looking at porn on a mobile phone or doing it in parliament? I can see why Angela Rayner could feel offended but I struggle to see who the hapless Neil Parish has upset unless he shared the film with someone inappropriate
    It is not, to my mind, a resigning matter. I think it appropriate he should face a party consequence, and possibly even some as an MP, since watching porn whilst you are supposed to be at work brings both into disrepute (maintaining high standards is not merely an issue of if you have upset someone) and would result in a warning or some disciplinary for others, but resigning over it would be very disproportionate.
    A quick Google suggests most employers will consider it gross misconduct even if other's don't see you.

    Given that he's doing it in a semi-public environment, with female colleagues around him, I'd say it would be a sackable offence most places.

    When you consider that he's (naïve I know), meant to be representing his constituents in Parliament, I'd say he should be held to pretty high standards.
    I won't comment on Neil Parish, as I know him and have worked with him on various issues - we'll see what comes out.

    Molre broadly, there are two separate issues, aren't there? One is pursuing private entertainment while sitting in the Chamber - would apply equally if the MP was watching football or playing Wordle. The other is that although watching porn privately is undoubtedly quite common (not sure if there are reliable figures?), it's not universal and it upsets a significant number of people to be forced to see it by sitting next to someone (at work, on a bus, etc.).

    The first issue is not a resigning matter - as I said yesterday, MPs just don't listen riveted to every word in a debate, and everyone in the House knows that. It would however be expected that they do work stuff - answer constituents, look up issues, etc. - so I'd expect an MP spotted watching football in the Chamber to just get a warning from the whips to concentrate on the job.

    The second issue is more serious, and at the least constitutes reckless disregard for the feelings of colleagues, or astonishing ignorance of how they might feel. That probably is a matter for permanent loss of the whip, and perhaps resignation.
    I write as an ex-civil servant. If you were caught watching porn at work, you'd expect to face a charge of gross misconduct and be out on your ear. By definition, being caught means someone has seen you doing it. If you're doing it on a private phone and nobody sees you doing it, then nobody knows. If it's a work phone, whether you're caught by observation or through IT surveillance, then you deserve to be sacked for gross stupidity as well as misconduct. What you do out of work is, of course, none of your employer's business, as long as it's legal.

    I don't see why it should be any different for MPs, who are also servants of the people.
    IT surveillance is the interesting bit. The House authorities could quite easily find out every member who’d done it on work wifi ever. Now, as many have said, doing it in private on word wifi if more a warning sort of offence (unless it’s persistent) but it would stop anyone else doing it over night.

    Would make an interesting FOI mind, to ask for the numbers….
    I once had my office PC checked by IT because my Head of Department thought I'd been looking at porn. I hadn't. He'd jumped to the wrong conclusion. I do know for sure that if there had been a single suspect image or site visited my feet would not have touched the ground.

    Different for MPs, is it?
    Once again we come back to the thorny issue of MPs not being employed. Perhaps they should be, but it would need careful consideration.
    An excellent point. In terms of real workplaces, they seem to be a sort of cross between contractors on a building site, and proprietors of a gentleman's [sic] club.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343

    Leon said:

    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America

    My first American driving experience was driving from Los Angeles to Palm Springs, Getting out of LA was an experience - terrible roads.

    You don't need a car in Vegas but there's nothing like cruising along the Strip and you can access some of the very good restaurants to be found in Henderson and the other Vegas suburbs.
    The roads have been magnificent throughout this trip: Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi (Louisiana next and last). You really do have to drive in America (outside a few eastern cities), but they make sure driving is easy and smooth. The maintenance is immaculate. I have barely seen a pot hole in a week of driving. It puts the UK to shame, in that department
    My first US road trip was picking up a rental in Atlantic City NJ, drive to Cape May, the Cape Charles, then New Bern, Charleston, Beaufort SC, Savannah, across the Okefenokee Swamp, Tallahasee, Mobile, Norlins, up the Natchez, Oxford MS, Nashville, Daniel Boone National Forest, Ashville, up the Blue Ridge to Stanton VA, then Cumberland MD, following the mountains all the way up to Watertown, NY, then across to Montpelier, Bangor Maine, and down to Concord MA, then to Albany and down the Hudson, back to Atlantic City. Took a while, but I was between jobs. :D
    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America

    My first American driving experience was driving from Los Angeles to Palm Springs, Getting out of LA was an experience - terrible roads.

    You don't need a car in Vegas but there's nothing like cruising along the Strip and you can access some of the very good restaurants to be found in Henderson and the other Vegas suburbs.
    The roads have been magnificent throughout this trip: Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi (Louisiana next and last). You really do have to drive in America (outside a few eastern cities), but they make sure driving is easy and smooth. The maintenance is immaculate. I have barely seen a pot hole in a week of driving. It puts the UK to shame, in that department
    My first US road trip was picking up a rental in Atlantic City NJ, drive to Cape May, the Cape Charles, then New Bern, Charleston, Beaufort SC, Savannah, across the Okefenokee Swamp, Tallahasee, Mobile, Norlins, up the Natchez, Oxford MS, Nashville, Daniel Boone National Forest, Ashville, up the Blue Ridge to Stanton VA, then Cumberland MD, following the mountains all the way up to Watertown, NY, then across to Montpelier, Bangor Maine, and down to Concord MA, then to Albany and down the Hudson, back to Atlantic City. Took a while, but I was between jobs. :D
    That sounds EPIC

    This sojourn has reminded me what fun US road trips are

    They are so different to normal holidays. Every day something new. Something different. Every morning you jump in the car and you get a surge of energy: ooh what’s around the corner

    There’s also a melancholy. The endless road. But that’s all part of it. There’s a melancholy in staring at the same Tuscan swimming pool for a fortnight

    And yes - @TOPPING - you REALLY need a car and the ability to drive
    Have taken some epic road trips in the UK, doing my best to avoid cities & motorways, cruising through the countryside from outskirts of London as far as Edinburgh, Carlisle, Chester, Cromer, Stonehenge, Malvern, Lincoln and even fabled Hartlepool.

    My most memorable excursion in USA was when I moved to Seattle.

    Drove non-stop from Hammond, Louisiana to El Paso (except for gas & very early morning breakfast at Denny's next to the Alamo in San Antonio). Then up to Farmington, New Mexico, then from there past Monument Valley, Arizona to the Four Corners. Then up to Salt Lake City and across the Bonneville Salt Flats to Wendover, Nevada. Then up to Jackpot, NV on Idaho state line. Then along the Salmon River and down the Bitterroot Valley of Montana past Butte & Missoula, then to Coer d'Alene, Idaho. Then across WA State and over Snoqualmie Pass down to Seattle.

    Only fly in the ointment, was that Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait just as I began this drive. Seemed that every time I pulled into a gas station, the attendant was changing the price of gas on the sign - ever upward!
    If you are looking for adventure, romance, exotic locations and danger nothing beats trying to get to Millom by bus on a Sunday in winter.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Carnyx said:

    An excellent point. In terms of real workplaces, they seem to be a sort of cross between contractors on a building site, and proprietors of a gentleman's [sic] club.

    BoZo thinks it is a frat house
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    edited April 2022
    biggles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    We had a branch office in Miami where a routine IT check discovered Playboy was the most visited site. The branch was closed down overnite and as far as I know everyone was sacked.

    At one of our offices in PA we found someone looking at porn sites, 8 hours continuously, from 10pm to 6am.

    The night security guard
    At least they were standing to attention at their post and keeping a tight grip on things.
    I suppose at least they were awake.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,921

    What I like about the Neil Parish story is this:

    "In an interview with the Times, Mr Parish's wife, Sue Parish, said the allegation was "very embarrassing" and described her husband as "quite a normal guy and "a lovely person".

    She said she did not see the attraction of pornography and understood why the women who made the allegation were upset.

    "I'm a woman," she was quoted say saying. "Hence why the women were so cross. It's degrading. It's demanding. But on the other hand it takes two to tango. There must be women posing for all this."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61276319

    "Posing" is a very, um...quaint way of phrasing it. One wonders if Mr. Parish's wife realises there is (not necessarily, but generally) a lot more to porn these days, it's not all black and white Victorian ankle flashes in magazines. Or something.

    Separately, it's probably entirely apocryphal (and tame compared to other people's stories), but I worked for the Scottish Government at one point for a short period, and was told the story of someone in one of the policy departments desperately trying to find out some information on gender equality legislation, but hastily typed "Sex Act" into Google on their work computer. Cue awkward discussion with IT! Made me laugh anyway.

    kle4 said:

    Apparently the largest political party in the British Virgin Islands is the Virgin Islands Party. Talk about lazy.

    What's the opposition called? The Other Virgin Islands Party?
    The Experienced Party.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,242

    An issue that Ben Wallace might find tricky if he became PM:

    https://mailchi.mp/tortoisemedia/porking-up-2?e=484b7928c0

    This American-style pork barrel politics extends far beyond Ben Wallace, as your link makes clear. It is surely another sign of the debasement of our politics in the last couple of years. Will it affect Wallace? I doubt it; they are all at it, or at least a lot of them are.
    Am pretty sure that pork barrel politics is NOT an American invention.

    Certainly before 1609 it was not unheard of, for English boroughs to offer compensation to their MPs, in order to ensure that they were diligent in advancing the interests of their constituency, esp. constituents who could vote or controlled voters) in the Mother of Parliaments.

    Just sayin'
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    biggles said:

    nova said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Do people think he should? Is the crime looking at porn on a mobile phone or doing it in parliament? I can see why Angela Rayner could feel offended but I struggle to see who the hapless Neil Parish has upset unless he shared the film with someone inappropriate
    It is not, to my mind, a resigning matter. I think it appropriate he should face a party consequence, and possibly even some as an MP, since watching porn whilst you are supposed to be at work brings both into disrepute (maintaining high standards is not merely an issue of if you have upset someone) and would result in a warning or some disciplinary for others, but resigning over it would be very disproportionate.
    A quick Google suggests most employers will consider it gross misconduct even if other's don't see you.

    Given that he's doing it in a semi-public environment, with female colleagues around him, I'd say it would be a sackable offence most places.

    When you consider that he's (naïve I know), meant to be representing his constituents in Parliament, I'd say he should be held to pretty high standards.
    I won't comment on Neil Parish, as I know him and have worked with him on various issues - we'll see what comes out.

    Molre broadly, there are two separate issues, aren't there? One is pursuing private entertainment while sitting in the Chamber - would apply equally if the MP was watching football or playing Wordle. The other is that although watching porn privately is undoubtedly quite common (not sure if there are reliable figures?), it's not universal and it upsets a significant number of people to be forced to see it by sitting next to someone (at work, on a bus, etc.).

    The first issue is not a resigning matter - as I said yesterday, MPs just don't listen riveted to every word in a debate, and everyone in the House knows that. It would however be expected that they do work stuff - answer constituents, look up issues, etc. - so I'd expect an MP spotted watching football in the Chamber to just get a warning from the whips to concentrate on the job.

    The second issue is more serious, and at the least constitutes reckless disregard for the feelings of colleagues, or astonishing ignorance of how they might feel. That probably is a matter for permanent loss of the whip, and perhaps resignation.
    I write as an ex-civil servant. If you were caught watching porn at work, you'd expect to face a charge of gross misconduct and be out on your ear. By definition, being caught means someone has seen you doing it. If you're doing it on a private phone and nobody sees you doing it, then nobody knows. If it's a work phone, whether you're caught by observation or through IT surveillance, then you deserve to be sacked for gross stupidity as well as misconduct. What you do out of work is, of course, none of your employer's business, as long as it's legal.

    I don't see why it should be any different for MPs, who are also servants of the people.
    IT surveillance is the interesting bit. The House authorities could quite easily find out every member who’d done it on work wifi ever. Now, as many have said, doing it in private on word wifi if more a warning sort of offence (unless it’s persistent) but it would stop anyone else doing it over night.

    Would make an interesting FOI mind, to ask for the numbers….
    I once had my office PC checked by IT because my Head of Department thought I'd been looking at porn. I hadn't. He'd jumped to the wrong conclusion. I do know for sure that if there had been a single suspect image or site visited my feet would not have touched the ground.

    Different for MPs, is it?
    Once again we come back to the thorny issue of MPs not being employed. Perhaps they should be, but it would need careful consideration.
    An excellent point. In terms of real workplaces, they seem to be a sort of cross between contractors on a building site, and proprietors of a gentleman's [sic] club.
    I've a slight issue with that: many building sites are much better than they were a few decades ago. Attitudes have changed, in part because of the excellent considerate contractors scheme.

    https://www.ccscheme.org.uk/
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting point of view

    "Home-working is a middle-class Remainer cult
    The Civil Service has fallen prey to an ideology that worships employee satisfaction to the detriment of everything else
    Camilla Tominey" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/04/29/home-working-middle-class-remainer-cult/

    I am sure he would have been railing against Bob Cratchit for wanting that extra bit of coal as well. And having time off for Christmas!! Who but Middle Class Remainers could even think of such a decadent and wasteful luxury. Surely they must only be doing it because they want the whole economy to collapse.

    What a tosser.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Off topic...

    Next available appointment for a telephone consultation with a GP: 27 days' time. Let's hope I'm able to get to the phone!

    Good old NHS, it is the envy of the world you know? Certainly the envy of considerably lesser paid primary care doctors in the rest of the world.
    Actually that raises an interesting point. We get zillions of articles and broadcasts about how bad things currently are in the NHS, but I don't recall a single one which puts that into the context of how healthcare systems in other European countries, which must be faced with similar challenges, are doing. Are they doing better than us? Who knows?
    Answer, yes. For years the disparity was put down to lack of comparable funding. New Labour decided to destructively test this by hosing money at the NHS, and yes there were significant improvements, but huge amounts of cash was absorbed by eye watering pay increases for medical staff (the lower downs were less benefitted). Our primary care system was not rationalised so we are left with a system that duplicated services unnecessarily. It needs massive reform but this will always be blocked by the most powerful union in the world, the BMA. The only form of true deference in this country is to doctors. If you don't believe me, watch the free ride that BMA reps are given by TV journalists.
    Yet thanks to the NHS the UK still gets its healthcare on the cheap and was still getting reasonable outcomes until the pandemic struck. This is the latest (dated 2019) that I could find from the ONS:

    "In 2017, the UK spent £2,989 per person on healthcare, which was around the median for members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development: OECD (£2,913 per person). However, of the G7 group of large, developed economies, UK healthcare spending per person was the second-lowest, with the highest spenders being France (£3,737), Germany (£4,432) and the United States (£7,736)."


    Bollocks. What is the survey that @Richard_Tyndall links to showing that the NHS is internationally better than everyone else apart from, er, health outcomes and mortality.
    Was it the Civitas report just published? It shows the NHS does badly on most outcomes except for diabetes — huzzah for @Foxy — but if you read a couple of dozen pages past the headlines and into the report, there is a handy table showing Britain's per capita health spend is, erm, 14th. If we want French or German healthcare, we shall need to write some big cheques).
    https://civitas.org.uk/publications/international-health-care-outcomes-index-2022/
    Perhaps. As I said at the moment there is no coordination between different parts of the health service and no real incentive (aside from wanting to keep people alive/well) not to perform badly, as you say in almost every area.

    Is it about spending? Not sure - my impression is that it is the culture. Of resentment by the NHS workers at "the bosses/govt/the man". Would they do a better job if they were paid more? As I said, perhaps.
    Don't think so. When we threw substantial money at it in 2005-2010, waiting lists dropped like a stone (18 weeks vs previously up to 2 years). Clearly money isn't everything, but it does help!
    Yes, that is the case. What wasn't created was enough permenant increase in capacity. Most was done by overtime, and staff leaving the NHS to work as private sector contractors.

    The NHS is unusual amongst health care systems in that it has always constructed non-clinical barriers to care as a way of controlling government health care expenditure. The small numbers of staff, beds, ventilators, operating theatres etc is deliberate.

    This was a problem when surge capacity was needed in the pandemic, as the only way to create space was to convert operating theatres and redeploy staff. Now in the recovery phase we simply do not have the capacity to catch up. Not least because of staff attrition and minimal staff training in the last 2 years.

    When comparing health expenditure per capita across countries, one does need to adjust for local costs. Building land and construction is often more expensive here for example.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Fabulously droll thread. Read to the end https://twitter.com/DPMcBride/status/1520111757309661185
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    biggles said:

    nova said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Do people think he should? Is the crime looking at porn on a mobile phone or doing it in parliament? I can see why Angela Rayner could feel offended but I struggle to see who the hapless Neil Parish has upset unless he shared the film with someone inappropriate
    It is not, to my mind, a resigning matter. I think it appropriate he should face a party consequence, and possibly even some as an MP, since watching porn whilst you are supposed to be at work brings both into disrepute (maintaining high standards is not merely an issue of if you have upset someone) and would result in a warning or some disciplinary for others, but resigning over it would be very disproportionate.
    A quick Google suggests most employers will consider it gross misconduct even if other's don't see you.

    Given that he's doing it in a semi-public environment, with female colleagues around him, I'd say it would be a sackable offence most places.

    When you consider that he's (naïve I know), meant to be representing his constituents in Parliament, I'd say he should be held to pretty high standards.
    I won't comment on Neil Parish, as I know him and have worked with him on various issues - we'll see what comes out.

    Molre broadly, there are two separate issues, aren't there? One is pursuing private entertainment while sitting in the Chamber - would apply equally if the MP was watching football or playing Wordle. The other is that although watching porn privately is undoubtedly quite common (not sure if there are reliable figures?), it's not universal and it upsets a significant number of people to be forced to see it by sitting next to someone (at work, on a bus, etc.).

    The first issue is not a resigning matter - as I said yesterday, MPs just don't listen riveted to every word in a debate, and everyone in the House knows that. It would however be expected that they do work stuff - answer constituents, look up issues, etc. - so I'd expect an MP spotted watching football in the Chamber to just get a warning from the whips to concentrate on the job.

    The second issue is more serious, and at the least constitutes reckless disregard for the feelings of colleagues, or astonishing ignorance of how they might feel. That probably is a matter for permanent loss of the whip, and perhaps resignation.
    I write as an ex-civil servant. If you were caught watching porn at work, you'd expect to face a charge of gross misconduct and be out on your ear. By definition, being caught means someone has seen you doing it. If you're doing it on a private phone and nobody sees you doing it, then nobody knows. If it's a work phone, whether you're caught by observation or through IT surveillance, then you deserve to be sacked for gross stupidity as well as misconduct. What you do out of work is, of course, none of your employer's business, as long as it's legal.

    I don't see why it should be any different for MPs, who are also servants of the people.
    IT surveillance is the interesting bit. The House authorities could quite easily find out every member who’d done it on work wifi ever. Now, as many have said, doing it in private on word wifi if more a warning sort of offence (unless it’s persistent) but it would stop anyone else doing it over night.

    Would make an interesting FOI mind, to ask for the numbers….
    I once had my office PC checked by IT because my Head of Department thought I'd been looking at porn. I hadn't. He'd jumped to the wrong conclusion. I do know for sure that if there had been a single suspect image or site visited my feet would not have touched the ground.

    Different for MPs, is it?
    Once again we come back to the thorny issue of MPs not being employed. Perhaps they should be, but it would need careful consideration.
    An excellent point. In terms of real workplaces, they seem to be a sort of cross between contractors on a building site, and proprietors of a gentleman's [sic] club.
    I've a slight issue with that: many building sites are much better than they were a few decades ago. Attitudes have changed, in part because of the excellent considerate contractors scheme.

    https://www.ccscheme.org.uk/
    Oh, excellent news. Point taken, inadvertent slur retracted.

    I should have said, contractors visiting a business. Still subject to that business's standards. That would apply too to the likes of journalists and the DM - hence the reasonableness of the Spreaker thumping the table with them (or trying to).
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
    edited April 2022
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    At a laundromat in Natchez, Mississippi. The kindness and friendliness of Southerners remains incredible

    Did you park outside?

    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America
    There are about 5 cities in America where you can get by without a car.
    I'll give it a try:
    NYC, Boston, San Francisco, Chicago and ... I was going to add Philly, but not really. And for all of them it requires you live pretty close in. It is not true for the suburbs.

    And some, but not all of DC proper.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    TimT said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    At a laundromat in Natchez, Mississippi. The kindness and friendliness of Southerners remains incredible

    Did you park outside?

    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America
    There are about 5 cities in America where you can get by without a car.
    I'll give it a try:
    NYC, Boston, San Francisco, Chicago and ... I was going to add Philly, but not really. And for all of them it requires you live pretty close in. It is not true for the suburbs.
    Seattle?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    Scott_xP said:

    Carnyx said:

    An excellent point. In terms of real workplaces, they seem to be a sort of cross between contractors on a building site, and proprietors of a gentleman's [sic] club.

    BoZo thinks it is a frat house
    Bit unfair. Seems that a three digit number of them do so, sometimes.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,242
    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America

    My first American driving experience was driving from Los Angeles to Palm Springs, Getting out of LA was an experience - terrible roads.

    You don't need a car in Vegas but there's nothing like cruising along the Strip and you can access some of the very good restaurants to be found in Henderson and the other Vegas suburbs.
    The roads have been magnificent throughout this trip: Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi (Louisiana next and last). You really do have to drive in America (outside a few eastern cities), but they make sure driving is easy and smooth. The maintenance is immaculate. I have barely seen a pot hole in a week of driving. It puts the UK to shame, in that department
    My first US road trip was picking up a rental in Atlantic City NJ, drive to Cape May, the Cape Charles, then New Bern, Charleston, Beaufort SC, Savannah, across the Okefenokee Swamp, Tallahasee, Mobile, Norlins, up the Natchez, Oxford MS, Nashville, Daniel Boone National Forest, Ashville, up the Blue Ridge to Stanton VA, then Cumberland MD, following the mountains all the way up to Watertown, NY, then across to Montpelier, Bangor Maine, and down to Concord MA, then to Albany and down the Hudson, back to Atlantic City. Took a while, but I was between jobs. :D
    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America

    My first American driving experience was driving from Los Angeles to Palm Springs, Getting out of LA was an experience - terrible roads.

    You don't need a car in Vegas but there's nothing like cruising along the Strip and you can access some of the very good restaurants to be found in Henderson and the other Vegas suburbs.
    The roads have been magnificent throughout this trip: Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi (Louisiana next and last). You really do have to drive in America (outside a few eastern cities), but they make sure driving is easy and smooth. The maintenance is immaculate. I have barely seen a pot hole in a week of driving. It puts the UK to shame, in that department
    My first US road trip was picking up a rental in Atlantic City NJ, drive to Cape May, the Cape Charles, then New Bern, Charleston, Beaufort SC, Savannah, across the Okefenokee Swamp, Tallahasee, Mobile, Norlins, up the Natchez, Oxford MS, Nashville, Daniel Boone National Forest, Ashville, up the Blue Ridge to Stanton VA, then Cumberland MD, following the mountains all the way up to Watertown, NY, then across to Montpelier, Bangor Maine, and down to Concord MA, then to Albany and down the Hudson, back to Atlantic City. Took a while, but I was between jobs. :D
    That sounds EPIC

    This sojourn has reminded me what fun US road trips are

    They are so different to normal holidays. Every day something new. Something different. Every morning you jump in the car and you get a surge of energy: ooh what’s around the corner

    There’s also a melancholy. The endless road. But that’s all part of it. There’s a melancholy in staring at the same Tuscan swimming pool for a fortnight

    And yes - @TOPPING - you REALLY need a car and the ability to drive
    You mention the melancholy. That comes with only having Country available on the radio for much of the way. I guess that has changed with satellite radio, but back in the day, I learnt every last lyric of the DJs favorites.
    One great thing about loooooooong drives at night in USA back in the day, were the all-night trucker radio stations, that had a tremendous range across North America. Really helped keep you wake.

    Never forget one time driving somewhere in the Great Plains, about 3am, when the station I was listening to played "The Highwayman" by . . . wait for it . . . the Highwaymen (Willie Nelson, Kris Kristofferson, Waylon Jennings and Johnny Cash.

    VERY atmospheric! And when the song ended, the DJ said, that was so good, let's play it again - and he did.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFkcAH-m9W0
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,087
    edited April 2022
    kyf_100 said:

    MattW said:

    kyf_100 said:

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    biggles said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Do people think he should? Is the crime looking at porn on a mobile phone or doing it in parliament? I can see why Angela Rayner could feel offended but I struggle to see who the hapless Neil Parish has upset unless he shared the film with someone inappropriate
    It is not, to my mind, a resigning matter. I think it appropriate he should face a party consequence, and possibly even some as an MP, since watching porn whilst you are supposed to be at work brings both into disrepute (maintaining high standards is not merely an issue of if you have upset someone) and would result in a warning or some disciplinary for others, but resigning over it would be very disproportionate.
    I think my place might think about whether it was gross misconduct if done on the floor plate in front of others, as opposed to hidden away.
    If I found an employee was in their own office, looking at porn when they were supposed to be working, it would be a disciplinary issue:

    "Oi. I pay you to work, not to look at porn. Don't do it again or there'll be serious consequences."

    On the other hand, if it was in a meeting, and other employees were exposed it, it would be a much more serious offence. I don't know whether it would merit immediate dismissal, but it certainly would be a lot more than just a talking to.
    Back in 1995/6, our senior system tester working on a Saturday was caught looking at Internet porn whilst system testing a telephone exchange in short timescales - in between tests whilst the exchange was processing.

    Director had previously announced a big posturing pose that anyone caught misusing the Internet at work would be sacked.

    So he ended up sacking his best and most experienced system tester, slowed the tests down as he had lost 15 years of experience, and the chap was working at a competitor for £1200 a week 7 days later.

    Overly dogmatic are a bad thing,
    If he'd been doing cocaine at work, would that be OK because he's a good worker? If he came to work drinks wearing an SS uniform, etc...

    It's not overly dogmatic to expect basic standards of decency from people while they're at work.
    It depends on your view of "basic standards of decency" in the context, doesn't it? And how sanctions should be graduated.

    In this case it was a Saturday, and no one else was there, and it delayed a new release (normal routine 1 release per 8-10 months) of the main product of a £100m business by some weeks. Detected via log files.

    My judgement in that case looking back (and for an occurrence now) would be a final written warning.

    As for SS uniform at work drinks - that also depends imo. Perhaps it would be themed around The Producers or Allo Allo. Personally I don't have much of a problem with satirising Nazis; laughing at them is an important part of taking them sufficiently serious imo - ditto similar groups on the far left. A "Producers" for Putin would be interesting, with that huge long table. Or perhaps for Iran.

    Doing cocaine is perhaps in a different category, as it is criminal under the law of the land - up to 7 years for possession. Viewing pornography is not criminal. Also drugs have an impact on work.
    My point was there's simply some stuff you don't do at work. The fact that you're trying to find possible excuses for someone turning up in SS garb says everything you need to know about the kind of contortions you'll go to in order to claim that watching porn in the workplace isn't a sackable offence.
    No it doesn't. Forgive my bluntness, but that statement is nonsense on stilts. You have to define your statement of what you can do or can't do at work. I think you are being rather too simplistic.

    Anyway, who the hell are you to state what my purposes or motivations are?

    Whether porn in the workplace is a instantly sackable offence is a matter for the workplace's policy, not 'automatically true', since it is not regulated by law (unless you have a law that does so?). If I was to make a technical case (which I'm not), I'd simply point out that Redtube or Playboy are .. er .. workplaces, where the presence of porn is presumably not a sackable offence, so the universalist claim instantly fails.

    Rather, I suggest you are trying to make everything black and white and that everyone agrees with your assumptions, when reality has shades of grey. I'm exploring the shades of grey. My example was one where the Engineering Director went off at the deep end, landed himself in a hole, and damaged his own business unnecessarily as he had removed all flexibility.

    There are grey areas as basic as how are you defining "porn"? What is it? Are you going to use a technical definition, or go with @NickPalmer 's 'offence to colleagues' idea.

    We then have the grey areas about what is offence, and does it apply equally to say different sexualities. Plenty of activists will claim that the offensiveness is down to demeaning men / women / other categories and that eg Miss World or Beach Volleyball or Fitness Posing or Beach Ogling by either sex / whichever self-identified gender is as offensive as more explicit material because the values are the same.

    Then we have the grey areas around policies such as 'personal internet use at lunchtime allowed'.

    Some things are clear, but there are vast grey areas around them. Where do you draw your lines?

    Should Neil Parish be expelled if he was watching a Wet Teeshirt competition? Beach Volleyball? Miss Universe? And if one colleague was offended, and another was not? What if the colleague is a known activist? How do you judge these things?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    TimT said:

    I'll give it a try:
    NYC, Boston, San Francisco, Chicago and ... I was going to add Philly, but not really. And for all of them it requires you live pretty close in. It is not true for the suburbs.

    And some, but not all of DC proper.

    You can't drive to our office in Philly. You have to get the train. But you need a car in the burbs for everything else
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,395

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Boris sent to prison.

    Sadly, not that Boris.

    Interesting suggestion from @CharonQC (founder of BPP Law school):

    The Boris Becker jailing sentence suggests that some Judges need to read a book on Sentencing and why prison is not always appropriate. Community Service to teach youngsters to play Tennis would have been FAR better! But such is the ENGLISH legal system. Absurd. Annoyed me.
    https://twitter.com/Charonqc/status/1520072685673398272
    That's wrong IMO, though I haven't read much on it. Hasn't Becker lied and prevaricated throughout this process, over millions of pounds?

    If you can go to jail for six months for shoplifting up to £200, and seven years for above that (1), then I don't see why what he's done is much different. Lord Brocket got five years for his insurance fraud 25 years ago.

    Becker's famous. I get it. But I don't think that such fraud is victimless: he owed £50 million. Whilst many of those creditors might be big, faceless banks, others might be small mom-and-pop operations, for whom a small amount regained through the bankruptcy process might be the difference between solvency and bankruptcy for themselves.

    (1): https://www.inbrief.co.uk/offences/shoplifting/
    Yes - fair points.

    I guess there is a strong argument for a combination of the two - 18 months in prison (/2) then several years of community service.
    One obvious comparison is with possibly the greatest jockey of all time, Lester Piggott, who was also imprisoned for hiding assets. He had reached an agreement over back taxes but paid the Inland Revenue with a cheque drawn on an account he had not declared.
    That's right. The view in the Department was that he was just taking the piss, so the usual compromises were not available to him.
    The trick, of course, is to be a Liverpudlian and to be tried in Liverpool. Worked for Ken Dodd.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624

    MattW said:

    Boris sent to prison.

    Sadly, not that Boris.

    Interesting suggestion from @CharonQC (founder of BPP Law school):

    The Boris Becker jailing sentence suggests that some Judges need to read a book on Sentencing and why prison is not always appropriate. Community Service to teach youngsters to play Tennis would have been FAR better! But such is the ENGLISH legal system. Absurd. Annoyed me.
    https://twitter.com/Charonqc/status/1520072685673398272
    That's wrong IMO, though I haven't read much on it. Hasn't Becker lied and prevaricated throughout this process, over millions of pounds?

    If you can go to jail for six months for shoplifting up to £200, and seven years for above that (1), then I don't see why what he's done is much different. Lord Brocket got five years for his insurance fraud 25 years ago.

    Becker's famous. I get it. But I don't think that such fraud is victimless: he owed £50 million. Whilst many of those creditors might be big, faceless banks, others might be small mom-and-pop operations, for whom a small amount regained through the bankruptcy process might be the difference between solvency and bankruptcy for themselves.

    (1): https://www.inbrief.co.uk/offences/shoplifting/
    It sounds like the whiney garbage that comes out when people of a certain "level" get serious sentences.

    Reminds me of my friend the head shrink who got into trouble for diagnosing "respectable" people who were due in court as "a tosser, but sane". Well, the equivalent in head shrink speak.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,757
    It's a shame Sunak can't have a similar deflationary effect on the cost of living.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,242
    Carnyx said:

    TimT said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    At a laundromat in Natchez, Mississippi. The kindness and friendliness of Southerners remains incredible

    Did you park outside?

    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America
    There are about 5 cities in America where you can get by without a car.
    I'll give it a try:
    NYC, Boston, San Francisco, Chicago and ... I was going to add Philly, but not really. And for all of them it requires you live pretty close in. It is not true for the suburbs.
    Seattle?
    Seattle AND environs have great bus service, actually more than one: Metro which has local & express buses serving all of King County; Sound Transit, which does regional light rail and express buses; also local buses in neighboring counties. PLUS we have Washington State Ferries and some other ferry routes that have LOTS of commuter traffic.

    BTW, cost to ride Metro for geezer like me = $1 including transfer ranging from min of 2 hours.

    IF you start early enough in the morning, you can take bus from my humble abode to downtown Seattle, catch ferry to Bainbridge Island, then bus (with one transfer) to Port Townsend at north end of Puget Sound. Then reverse in the afternoon, and be back by early evening.

    Plenty of folks here go hiking or skiing up in the mountains by first taking a bus to trail head or slopes, then catching one back when their done for the day.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    MattW said:

    kyf_100 said:

    MattW said:

    kyf_100 said:

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    biggles said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Do people think he should? Is the crime looking at porn on a mobile phone or doing it in parliament? I can see why Angela Rayner could feel offended but I struggle to see who the hapless Neil Parish has upset unless he shared the film with someone inappropriate
    It is not, to my mind, a resigning matter. I think it appropriate he should face a party consequence, and possibly even some as an MP, since watching porn whilst you are supposed to be at work brings both into disrepute (maintaining high standards is not merely an issue of if you have upset someone) and would result in a warning or some disciplinary for others, but resigning over it would be very disproportionate.
    I think my place might think about whether it was gross misconduct if done on the floor plate in front of others, as opposed to hidden away.
    If I found an employee was in their own office, looking at porn when they were supposed to be working, it would be a disciplinary issue:

    "Oi. I pay you to work, not to look at porn. Don't do it again or there'll be serious consequences."

    On the other hand, if it was in a meeting, and other employees were exposed it, it would be a much more serious offence. I don't know whether it would merit immediate dismissal, but it certainly would be a lot more than just a talking to.
    Back in 1995/6, our senior system tester working on a Saturday was caught looking at Internet porn whilst system testing a telephone exchange in short timescales - in between tests whilst the exchange was processing.

    Director had previously announced a big posturing pose that anyone caught misusing the Internet at work would be sacked.

    So he ended up sacking his best and most experienced system tester, slowed the tests down as he had lost 15 years of experience, and the chap was working at a competitor for £1200 a week 7 days later.

    Overly dogmatic are a bad thing,
    If he'd been doing cocaine at work, would that be OK because he's a good worker? If he came to work drinks wearing an SS uniform, etc...

    It's not overly dogmatic to expect basic standards of decency from people while they're at work.
    It depends on your view of "basic standards of decency" in the context, doesn't it? And how sanctions should be graduated.

    In this case it was a Saturday, and no one else was there, and it delayed a new release (normal routine 1 release per 8-10 months) of the main product of a £100m business by some weeks. Detected via log files.

    My judgement in that case looking back (and for an occurrence now) would be a final written warning.

    As for SS uniform at work drinks - that also depends imo. Perhaps it would be themed around The Producers or Allo Allo. Personally I don't have much of a problem with satirising Nazis; laughing at them is an important part of taking them sufficiently serious imo - ditto similar groups on the far left. A "Producers" for Putin would be interesting, with that huge long table. Or perhaps for Iran.

    Doing cocaine is perhaps in a different category, as it is criminal under the law of the land - up to 7 years for possession. Viewing pornography is not criminal. Also drugs have an impact on work.
    My point was there's simply some stuff you don't do at work. The fact that you're trying to find possible excuses for someone turning up in SS garb says everything you need to know about the kind of contortions you'll go to in order to claim that watching porn in the workplace isn't a sackable offence.
    No it doesn't. Forgive my bluntness, but that statement is nonsense on stilts. You have to define your statement of what you can do or can't do at work. I think you are being rather too simplistic.

    Anyway, who the hell are you to state what my purposes or motivations are?

    Whether porn in the workplace is a instantly sackable offence is a matter for the workplace's policy, not 'automatically true', since it is not regulated by law (unless you have a law that does so?). If I was to make a technical case (which I'm not), I'd simply point out that Redtube or Playboy are .. er .. workplaces, where the presence of porn is presumably not a sackable offence, so the universalist claim instantly fails.

    Rather, I suggest you are trying to make everything black and white and that everyone agrees with your assumptions, when reality has shades of grey. I'm exploring the shades of grey. My example was one where the Engineering Director went off at the deep end, landed himself in a hole, and damaged his own business unnecessarily as he had removed all flexibility.

    There are grey areas as basic as how are you defining "porn"? What is it? Are you going to use a technical definition, or go with @NickPalmer 's 'offence to colleagues' idea.

    We then have the grey areas about what is offence, and does it apply equally to say different sexualities. Plenty of activists will claim that the offensiveness is down to demeaning men / women / other categories and that eg Miss World or Beach Volleyball or Fitness Posing or Beach Ogling by either sex / whichever self-identified gender is as offensive as more explicit material because the values are the same.

    Then we have the grey areas around policies such as 'personal internet use at lunchtime allowed'.

    Some things are clear, but there are vast grey areas around them. Where do you draw your lines?

    Should Neil Parish be expelled if he was watching a Wet Teeshirt competition? Beach Volleyball? Miss Universe? And if one colleague was offended, and another was not? What if the colleague is a known activist? How do you judge these things?
    Very easily, given the strong warnings in recent months and years about (un)Parliamentary behaviour. The HoC isn't the Playboy editorial office.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149

    Carnyx said:

    TimT said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    At a laundromat in Natchez, Mississippi. The kindness and friendliness of Southerners remains incredible

    Did you park outside?

    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America
    There are about 5 cities in America where you can get by without a car.
    I'll give it a try:
    NYC, Boston, San Francisco, Chicago and ... I was going to add Philly, but not really. And for all of them it requires you live pretty close in. It is not true for the suburbs.
    Seattle?
    Seattle AND environs have great bus service, actually more than one: Metro which has local & express buses serving all of King County; Sound Transit, which does regional light rail and express buses; also local buses in neighboring counties. PLUS we have Washington State Ferries and some other ferry routes that have LOTS of commuter traffic.

    BTW, cost to ride Metro for geezer like me = $1 including transfer ranging from min of 2 hours.

    IF you start early enough in the morning, you can take bus from my humble abode to downtown Seattle, catch ferry to Bainbridge Island, then bus (with one transfer) to Port Townsend at north end of Puget Sound. Then reverse in the afternoon, and be back by early evening.

    Plenty of folks here go hiking or skiing up in the mountains by first taking a bus to trail head or slopes, then catching one back when their done for the day.
    I'm even more impressed. I was impressed by the bus from the University to the Air Museum back in 1998 or so - bike racks on the front, kneeled for a lady in a wheelchair, and when it got to downtown it extended guide wheels an d became an underground train.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 4,339
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Off topic...

    Next available appointment for a telephone consultation with a GP: 27 days' time. Let's hope I'm able to get to the phone!

    Good old NHS, it is the envy of the world you know? Certainly the envy of considerably lesser paid primary care doctors in the rest of the world.
    Actually that raises an interesting point. We get zillions of articles and broadcasts about how bad things currently are in the NHS, but I don't recall a single one which puts that into the context of how healthcare systems in other European countries, which must be faced with similar challenges, are doing. Are they doing better than us? Who knows?
    Answer, yes. For years the disparity was put down to lack of comparable funding. New Labour decided to destructively test this by hosing money at the NHS, and yes there were significant improvements, but huge amounts of cash was absorbed by eye watering pay increases for medical staff (the lower downs were less benefitted). Our primary care system was not rationalised so we are left with a system that duplicated services unnecessarily. It needs massive reform but this will always be blocked by the most powerful union in the world, the BMA. The only form of true deference in this country is to doctors. If you don't believe me, watch the free ride that BMA reps are given by TV journalists.
    Yet thanks to the NHS the UK still gets its healthcare on the cheap and was still getting reasonable outcomes until the pandemic struck. This is the latest (dated 2019) that I could find from the ONS:

    "In 2017, the UK spent £2,989 per person on healthcare, which was around the median for members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development: OECD (£2,913 per person). However, of the G7 group of large, developed economies, UK healthcare spending per person was the second-lowest, with the highest spenders being France (£3,737), Germany (£4,432) and the United States (£7,736)."


    Bollocks. What is the survey that @Richard_Tyndall links to showing that the NHS is internationally better than everyone else apart from, er, health outcomes and mortality.
    Was it the Civitas report just published? It shows the NHS does badly on most outcomes except for diabetes — huzzah for @Foxy — but if you read a couple of dozen pages past the headlines and into the report, there is a handy table showing Britain's per capita health spend is, erm, 14th. If we want French or German healthcare, we shall need to write some big cheques).
    https://civitas.org.uk/publications/international-health-care-outcomes-index-2022/
    Perhaps. As I said at the moment there is no coordination between different parts of the health service and no real incentive (aside from wanting to keep people alive/well) not to perform badly, as you say in almost every area.

    Is it about spending? Not sure - my impression is that it is the culture. Of resentment by the NHS workers at "the bosses/govt/the man". Would they do a better job if they were paid more? As I said, perhaps.
    Don't think so. When we threw substantial money at it in 2005-2010, waiting lists dropped like a stone (18 weeks vs previously up to 2 years). Clearly money isn't everything, but it does help!
    Yes, that is the case. What wasn't created was enough permenant increase in capacity. Most was done by overtime, and staff leaving the NHS to work as private sector contractors.

    The NHS is unusual amongst health care systems in that it has always constructed non-clinical barriers to care as a way of controlling government health care expenditure. The small numbers of staff, beds, ventilators, operating theatres etc is deliberate.

    This was a problem when surge capacity was needed in the pandemic, as the only way to create space was to convert operating theatres and redeploy staff. Now in the recovery phase we simply do not have the capacity to catch up. Not least because of staff attrition and minimal staff training in the last 2 years.

    When comparing health expenditure per capita across countries, one does need to adjust for local costs. Building land and construction is often more expensive here for example.
    Yup. You can:

    a) Fully fund all healthcare (ruinously expensive);

    b) ration by ability to pay;

    c) ration by quality (holding some things back); or

    d) ration by waiting time.

    We’ve firmly plumped for mostly D with some C. The mix and the amount varies by who’s in power.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,166

    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America

    My first American driving experience was driving from Los Angeles to Palm Springs, Getting out of LA was an experience - terrible roads.

    You don't need a car in Vegas but there's nothing like cruising along the Strip and you can access some of the very good restaurants to be found in Henderson and the other Vegas suburbs.
    The roads have been magnificent throughout this trip: Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi (Louisiana next and last). You really do have to drive in America (outside a few eastern cities), but they make sure driving is easy and smooth. The maintenance is immaculate. I have barely seen a pot hole in a week of driving. It puts the UK to shame, in that department
    My first US road trip was picking up a rental in Atlantic City NJ, drive to Cape May, the Cape Charles, then New Bern, Charleston, Beaufort SC, Savannah, across the Okefenokee Swamp, Tallahasee, Mobile, Norlins, up the Natchez, Oxford MS, Nashville, Daniel Boone National Forest, Ashville, up the Blue Ridge to Stanton VA, then Cumberland MD, following the mountains all the way up to Watertown, NY, then across to Montpelier, Bangor Maine, and down to Concord MA, then to Albany and down the Hudson, back to Atlantic City. Took a while, but I was between jobs. :D
    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America

    My first American driving experience was driving from Los Angeles to Palm Springs, Getting out of LA was an experience - terrible roads.

    You don't need a car in Vegas but there's nothing like cruising along the Strip and you can access some of the very good restaurants to be found in Henderson and the other Vegas suburbs.
    The roads have been magnificent throughout this trip: Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi (Louisiana next and last). You really do have to drive in America (outside a few eastern cities), but they make sure driving is easy and smooth. The maintenance is immaculate. I have barely seen a pot hole in a week of driving. It puts the UK to shame, in that department
    My first US road trip was picking up a rental in Atlantic City NJ, drive to Cape May, the Cape Charles, then New Bern, Charleston, Beaufort SC, Savannah, across the Okefenokee Swamp, Tallahasee, Mobile, Norlins, up the Natchez, Oxford MS, Nashville, Daniel Boone National Forest, Ashville, up the Blue Ridge to Stanton VA, then Cumberland MD, following the mountains all the way up to Watertown, NY, then across to Montpelier, Bangor Maine, and down to Concord MA, then to Albany and down the Hudson, back to Atlantic City. Took a while, but I was between jobs. :D
    That sounds EPIC

    This sojourn has reminded me what fun US road trips are

    They are so different to normal holidays. Every day something new. Something different. Every morning you jump in the car and you get a surge of energy: ooh what’s around the corner

    There’s also a melancholy. The endless road. But that’s all part of it. There’s a melancholy in staring at the same Tuscan swimming pool for a fortnight

    And yes - @TOPPING - you REALLY need a car and the ability to drive
    You mention the melancholy. That comes with only having Country available on the radio for much of the way. I guess that has changed with satellite radio, but back in the day, I learnt every last lyric of the DJs favorites.
    One great thing about loooooooong drives at night in USA back in the day, were the all-night trucker radio stations, that had a tremendous range across North America. Really helped keep you wake.

    Never forget one time driving somewhere in the Great Plains, about 3am, when the station I was listening to played "The Highwayman" by . . . wait for it . . . the Highwaymen (Willie Nelson, Kris Kristofferson, Waylon Jennings and Johnny Cash.

    VERY atmospheric! And when the song ended, the DJ said, that was so good, let's play it again - and he did.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFkcAH-m9W0
    Yes, the epicness (epicality? Epicity?) of an American road trip, the music, the scenery, the loneliness if you’re on your own. Unique among holidays. There are albums I listen to now that immediately take me back to the first time I heard them on a long straight road in Utah or Arizona.

    European road trips are excellent but the joys are different. I’d say they come either from the road itself, especially the high alpine passes and Mediterranean corniches, or the legendary names of the towns and villages along the way. The route from Marsannay to Cluny would be an example.
  • ydoethur said:

    It's a shame Sunak can't have a similar deflationary effect on the cost of living.

    Hope you are keeping well.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,242
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    TimT said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    At a laundromat in Natchez, Mississippi. The kindness and friendliness of Southerners remains incredible

    Did you park outside?

    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America
    There are about 5 cities in America where you can get by without a car.
    I'll give it a try:
    NYC, Boston, San Francisco, Chicago and ... I was going to add Philly, but not really. And for all of them it requires you live pretty close in. It is not true for the suburbs.
    Seattle?
    Seattle AND environs have great bus service, actually more than one: Metro which has local & express buses serving all of King County; Sound Transit, which does regional light rail and express buses; also local buses in neighboring counties. PLUS we have Washington State Ferries and some other ferry routes that have LOTS of commuter traffic.

    BTW, cost to ride Metro for geezer like me = $1 including transfer ranging from min of 2 hours.

    IF you start early enough in the morning, you can take bus from my humble abode to downtown Seattle, catch ferry to Bainbridge Island, then bus (with one transfer) to Port Townsend at north end of Puget Sound. Then reverse in the afternoon, and be back by early evening.

    Plenty of folks here go hiking or skiing up in the mountains by first taking a bus to trail head or slopes, then catching one back when their done for the day.
    I'm even more impressed. I was impressed by the bus from the University to the Air Museum back in 1998 or so - bike racks on the front, kneeled for a lady in a wheelchair, and when it got to downtown it extended guide wheels an d became an underground train.
    No longer does the last, because the "Bus Tunnel" is now for Sound Transit light rail exclusively.

    That system (which didn't exist in 1998) now extends from SeaTac airport (actually south of there) to downtown, University District and north of there. With extension across Lake Washington sched to open next year, and further extensions up to Everett and down to Tacoma.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    biggles said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Off topic...

    Next available appointment for a telephone consultation with a GP: 27 days' time. Let's hope I'm able to get to the phone!

    Good old NHS, it is the envy of the world you know? Certainly the envy of considerably lesser paid primary care doctors in the rest of the world.
    Actually that raises an interesting point. We get zillions of articles and broadcasts about how bad things currently are in the NHS, but I don't recall a single one which puts that into the context of how healthcare systems in other European countries, which must be faced with similar challenges, are doing. Are they doing better than us? Who knows?
    Answer, yes. For years the disparity was put down to lack of comparable funding. New Labour decided to destructively test this by hosing money at the NHS, and yes there were significant improvements, but huge amounts of cash was absorbed by eye watering pay increases for medical staff (the lower downs were less benefitted). Our primary care system was not rationalised so we are left with a system that duplicated services unnecessarily. It needs massive reform but this will always be blocked by the most powerful union in the world, the BMA. The only form of true deference in this country is to doctors. If you don't believe me, watch the free ride that BMA reps are given by TV journalists.
    Yet thanks to the NHS the UK still gets its healthcare on the cheap and was still getting reasonable outcomes until the pandemic struck. This is the latest (dated 2019) that I could find from the ONS:

    "In 2017, the UK spent £2,989 per person on healthcare, which was around the median for members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development: OECD (£2,913 per person). However, of the G7 group of large, developed economies, UK healthcare spending per person was the second-lowest, with the highest spenders being France (£3,737), Germany (£4,432) and the United States (£7,736)."


    Bollocks. What is the survey that @Richard_Tyndall links to showing that the NHS is internationally better than everyone else apart from, er, health outcomes and mortality.
    Was it the Civitas report just published? It shows the NHS does badly on most outcomes except for diabetes — huzzah for @Foxy — but if you read a couple of dozen pages past the headlines and into the report, there is a handy table showing Britain's per capita health spend is, erm, 14th. If we want French or German healthcare, we shall need to write some big cheques).
    https://civitas.org.uk/publications/international-health-care-outcomes-index-2022/
    Perhaps. As I said at the moment there is no coordination between different parts of the health service and no real incentive (aside from wanting to keep people alive/well) not to perform badly, as you say in almost every area.

    Is it about spending? Not sure - my impression is that it is the culture. Of resentment by the NHS workers at "the bosses/govt/the man". Would they do a better job if they were paid more? As I said, perhaps.
    Don't think so. When we threw substantial money at it in 2005-2010, waiting lists dropped like a stone (18 weeks vs previously up to 2 years). Clearly money isn't everything, but it does help!
    Yes, that is the case. What wasn't created was enough permenant increase in capacity. Most was done by overtime, and staff leaving the NHS to work as private sector contractors.

    The NHS is unusual amongst health care systems in that it has always constructed non-clinical barriers to care as a way of controlling government health care expenditure. The small numbers of staff, beds, ventilators, operating theatres etc is deliberate.

    This was a problem when surge capacity was needed in the pandemic, as the only way to create space was to convert operating theatres and redeploy staff. Now in the recovery phase we simply do not have the capacity to catch up. Not least because of staff attrition and minimal staff training in the last 2 years.

    When comparing health expenditure per capita across countries, one does need to adjust for local costs. Building land and construction is often more expensive here for example.
    Yup. You can:

    a) Fully fund all healthcare (ruinously expensive);

    b) ration by ability to pay;

    c) ration by quality (holding some things back); or

    d) ration by waiting time.

    We’ve firmly plumped for mostly D with some C. The mix and the amount varies by who’s in power.
    Yes that is a pretty good summary.

    A further issue in international comparisons is that the underlying amount of disease in each country is not the same. Different rates of obesity etc.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,087

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Off topic...

    Next available appointment for a telephone consultation with a GP: 27 days' time. Let's hope I'm able to get to the phone!

    Good old NHS, it is the envy of the world you know? Certainly the envy of considerably lesser paid primary care doctors in the rest of the world.
    Actually that raises an interesting point. We get zillions of articles and broadcasts about how bad things currently are in the NHS, but I don't recall a single one which puts that into the context of how healthcare systems in other European countries, which must be faced with similar challenges, are doing. Are they doing better than us? Who knows?
    Answer, yes. For years the disparity was put down to lack of comparable funding. New Labour decided to destructively test this by hosing money at the NHS, and yes there were significant improvements, but huge amounts of cash was absorbed by eye watering pay increases for medical staff (the lower downs were less benefitted). Our primary care system was not rationalised so we are left with a system that duplicated services unnecessarily. It needs massive reform but this will always be blocked by the most powerful union in the world, the BMA. The only form of true deference in this country is to doctors. If you don't believe me, watch the free ride that BMA reps are given by TV journalists.
    Yet thanks to the NHS the UK still gets its healthcare on the cheap and was still getting reasonable outcomes until the pandemic struck. This is the latest (dated 2019) that I could find from the ONS:

    "In 2017, the UK spent £2,989 per person on healthcare, which was around the median for members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development: OECD (£2,913 per person). However, of the G7 group of large, developed economies, UK healthcare spending per person was the second-lowest, with the highest spenders being France (£3,737), Germany (£4,432) and the United States (£7,736)."


    Bollocks. What is the survey that @Richard_Tyndall links to showing that the NHS is internationally better than everyone else apart from, er, health outcomes and mortality.
    Was it the Civitas report just published? It shows the NHS does badly on most outcomes except for diabetes — huzzah for @Foxy — but if you read a couple of dozen pages past the headlines and into the report, there is a handy table showing Britain's per capita health spend is, erm, 14th. If we want French or German healthcare, we shall need to write some big cheques).
    https://civitas.org.uk/publications/international-health-care-outcomes-index-2022/
    Perhaps. As I said at the moment there is no coordination between different parts of the health service and no real incentive (aside from wanting to keep people alive/well) not to perform badly, as you say in almost every area.

    Is it about spending? Not sure - my impression is that it is the culture. Of resentment by the NHS workers at "the bosses/govt/the man". Would they do a better job if they were paid more? As I said, perhaps.
    Don't think so. When we threw substantial money at it in 2005-2010, waiting lists dropped like a stone (18 weeks vs previously up to 2 years). Clearly money isn't everything, but it does help!
    I think this one will be interesting to watch, having personally had a *heck* of a lot of medical treatment during COVID.

    The last time I looked the Govt were pretty much on track on their Dr/Nurse recruitment targets in NHS England wrt the manifesto. But will that be enough? And how many more existing staff will leave than would have if the Govt had not politically and practically f*cked up the pay increase process last year?

    And waiting lists fell quite sharply during COVID at times when the pandemic was less of a load.

    But then waiting lists have gone back up, and there is an indeterminate backlog of cases that have not been identified, some of which may be more advanced and require more resources than if they had been detected.

    But weekend clinics are running in some places by third party organisations for extra capacity, and eg (one of mine) treatment for Type 1 Diabetics is in some respects being quite widely revolutionised (pumps and continuous or nearly-continuous blood glucose monitoring), which will be a large long term benefit. On another one, prevention or onset delay programmes for Type 2 Diabetics are having some success.

    And the Government targets seem to be quite cautious - little more than recovery to the pre-COVID position before the next election iirc.

    Very difficult to call objectively. Too many variables.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,242
    TimS said:

    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America

    My first American driving experience was driving from Los Angeles to Palm Springs, Getting out of LA was an experience - terrible roads.

    You don't need a car in Vegas but there's nothing like cruising along the Strip and you can access some of the very good restaurants to be found in Henderson and the other Vegas suburbs.
    The roads have been magnificent throughout this trip: Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi (Louisiana next and last). You really do have to drive in America (outside a few eastern cities), but they make sure driving is easy and smooth. The maintenance is immaculate. I have barely seen a pot hole in a week of driving. It puts the UK to shame, in that department
    My first US road trip was picking up a rental in Atlantic City NJ, drive to Cape May, the Cape Charles, then New Bern, Charleston, Beaufort SC, Savannah, across the Okefenokee Swamp, Tallahasee, Mobile, Norlins, up the Natchez, Oxford MS, Nashville, Daniel Boone National Forest, Ashville, up the Blue Ridge to Stanton VA, then Cumberland MD, following the mountains all the way up to Watertown, NY, then across to Montpelier, Bangor Maine, and down to Concord MA, then to Albany and down the Hudson, back to Atlantic City. Took a while, but I was between jobs. :D
    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America

    My first American driving experience was driving from Los Angeles to Palm Springs, Getting out of LA was an experience - terrible roads.

    You don't need a car in Vegas but there's nothing like cruising along the Strip and you can access some of the very good restaurants to be found in Henderson and the other Vegas suburbs.
    The roads have been magnificent throughout this trip: Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi (Louisiana next and last). You really do have to drive in America (outside a few eastern cities), but they make sure driving is easy and smooth. The maintenance is immaculate. I have barely seen a pot hole in a week of driving. It puts the UK to shame, in that department
    My first US road trip was picking up a rental in Atlantic City NJ, drive to Cape May, the Cape Charles, then New Bern, Charleston, Beaufort SC, Savannah, across the Okefenokee Swamp, Tallahasee, Mobile, Norlins, up the Natchez, Oxford MS, Nashville, Daniel Boone National Forest, Ashville, up the Blue Ridge to Stanton VA, then Cumberland MD, following the mountains all the way up to Watertown, NY, then across to Montpelier, Bangor Maine, and down to Concord MA, then to Albany and down the Hudson, back to Atlantic City. Took a while, but I was between jobs. :D
    That sounds EPIC

    This sojourn has reminded me what fun US road trips are

    They are so different to normal holidays. Every day something new. Something different. Every morning you jump in the car and you get a surge of energy: ooh what’s around the corner

    There’s also a melancholy. The endless road. But that’s all part of it. There’s a melancholy in staring at the same Tuscan swimming pool for a fortnight

    And yes - @TOPPING - you REALLY need a car and the ability to drive
    You mention the melancholy. That comes with only having Country available on the radio for much of the way. I guess that has changed with satellite radio, but back in the day, I learnt every last lyric of the DJs favorites.
    One great thing about loooooooong drives at night in USA back in the day, were the all-night trucker radio stations, that had a tremendous range across North America. Really helped keep you wake.

    Never forget one time driving somewhere in the Great Plains, about 3am, when the station I was listening to played "The Highwayman" by . . . wait for it . . . the Highwaymen (Willie Nelson, Kris Kristofferson, Waylon Jennings and Johnny Cash.

    VERY atmospheric! And when the song ended, the DJ said, that was so good, let's play it again - and he did.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFkcAH-m9W0
    Yes, the epicness (epicality? Epicity?) of an American road trip, the music, the scenery, the loneliness if you’re on your own. Unique among holidays. There are albums I listen to now that immediately take me back to the first time I heard them on a long straight road in Utah or Arizona.

    European road trips are excellent but the joys are different. I’d say they come either from the road itself, especially the high alpine passes and Mediterranean corniches, or the legendary names of the towns and villages along the way. The route from Marsannay to Cluny would be an example.
    One twist on the Great American Road Trip is hitchhiking cross-country, or at least through several states.

    Rather rate these days, though John Waters wrote a pretty good book about hitchhiking from Baltimore to San Francisco. Slightly diminished by fact that he got many of his rides, and most of his mileage, from drivers who recognized him before they stopped to pick him up! Got rides ranging from ten to hundreds of miles, and met a LOT of interesting people. From coal miners to county judges. On one occasion, he was standing with his thumb out, when a Hispanic lady approached him, who was obviously working a pretty menial job, and gave him $20 because she felt sorry for him!

    When I was in grad school used to hitch from Indiana to West Virginia & back. NOT exactly a main route for anybody but me! Would usually take me about half a day to go 300 miles via numerous short rides.

    One of my gimmicks was a hand-written sign "Home to Mom in WVa" which worked pretty well. On one occasion, an older couple were cruising down the interstate and caught site of me as they drove by; the wife insisted that her husband get off at the next exit, turn around, and go back to pick me up!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,281

    Carnyx said:

    TimT said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    At a laundromat in Natchez, Mississippi. The kindness and friendliness of Southerners remains incredible

    Did you park outside?

    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America
    There are about 5 cities in America where you can get by without a car.
    I'll give it a try:
    NYC, Boston, San Francisco, Chicago and ... I was going to add Philly, but not really. And for all of them it requires you live pretty close in. It is not true for the suburbs.
    Seattle?
    Seattle AND environs have great bus service, actually more than one: Metro which has local & express buses serving all of King County; Sound Transit, which does regional light rail and express buses; also local buses in neighboring counties. PLUS we have Washington State Ferries and some other ferry routes that have LOTS of commuter traffic.

    BTW, cost to ride Metro for geezer like me = $1 including transfer ranging from min of 2 hours.

    IF you start early enough in the morning, you can take bus from my humble abode to downtown Seattle, catch ferry to Bainbridge Island, then bus (with one transfer) to Port Townsend at north end of Puget Sound. Then reverse in the afternoon, and be back by early evening.

    Plenty of folks here go hiking or skiing up in the mountains by first taking a bus to trail head or slopes, then catching one back when their done for the day.
    I spent 3 days in Seattle in 2017 and got around just by walking and using public transport. Walked up the enormous hill a few times which most people probably wouldn't want to do.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,395
    This is worth a look. The late, great Christopher Hitchens warning about Vladimir Putin. Watch to the end.

    Delivered in 2005.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83OY6De6Ob4

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Foxy said:

    biggles said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Off topic...

    Next available appointment for a telephone consultation with a GP: 27 days' time. Let's hope I'm able to get to the phone!

    Good old NHS, it is the envy of the world you know? Certainly the envy of considerably lesser paid primary care doctors in the rest of the world.
    Actually that raises an interesting point. We get zillions of articles and broadcasts about how bad things currently are in the NHS, but I don't recall a single one which puts that into the context of how healthcare systems in other European countries, which must be faced with similar challenges, are doing. Are they doing better than us? Who knows?
    Answer, yes. For years the disparity was put down to lack of comparable funding. New Labour decided to destructively test this by hosing money at the NHS, and yes there were significant improvements, but huge amounts of cash was absorbed by eye watering pay increases for medical staff (the lower downs were less benefitted). Our primary care system was not rationalised so we are left with a system that duplicated services unnecessarily. It needs massive reform but this will always be blocked by the most powerful union in the world, the BMA. The only form of true deference in this country is to doctors. If you don't believe me, watch the free ride that BMA reps are given by TV journalists.
    Yet thanks to the NHS the UK still gets its healthcare on the cheap and was still getting reasonable outcomes until the pandemic struck. This is the latest (dated 2019) that I could find from the ONS:

    "In 2017, the UK spent £2,989 per person on healthcare, which was around the median for members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development: OECD (£2,913 per person). However, of the G7 group of large, developed economies, UK healthcare spending per person was the second-lowest, with the highest spenders being France (£3,737), Germany (£4,432) and the United States (£7,736)."


    Bollocks. What is the survey that @Richard_Tyndall links to showing that the NHS is internationally better than everyone else apart from, er, health outcomes and mortality.
    Was it the Civitas report just published? It shows the NHS does badly on most outcomes except for diabetes — huzzah for @Foxy — but if you read a couple of dozen pages past the headlines and into the report, there is a handy table showing Britain's per capita health spend is, erm, 14th. If we want French or German healthcare, we shall need to write some big cheques).
    https://civitas.org.uk/publications/international-health-care-outcomes-index-2022/
    Perhaps. As I said at the moment there is no coordination between different parts of the health service and no real incentive (aside from wanting to keep people alive/well) not to perform badly, as you say in almost every area.

    Is it about spending? Not sure - my impression is that it is the culture. Of resentment by the NHS workers at "the bosses/govt/the man". Would they do a better job if they were paid more? As I said, perhaps.
    Don't think so. When we threw substantial money at it in 2005-2010, waiting lists dropped like a stone (18 weeks vs previously up to 2 years). Clearly money isn't everything, but it does help!
    Yes, that is the case. What wasn't created was enough permenant increase in capacity. Most was done by overtime, and staff leaving the NHS to work as private sector contractors.

    The NHS is unusual amongst health care systems in that it has always constructed non-clinical barriers to care as a way of controlling government health care expenditure. The small numbers of staff, beds, ventilators, operating theatres etc is deliberate.

    This was a problem when surge capacity was needed in the pandemic, as the only way to create space was to convert operating theatres and redeploy staff. Now in the recovery phase we simply do not have the capacity to catch up. Not least because of staff attrition and minimal staff training in the last 2 years.

    When comparing health expenditure per capita across countries, one does need to adjust for local costs. Building land and construction is often more expensive here for example.
    Yup. You can:

    a) Fully fund all healthcare (ruinously expensive);

    b) ration by ability to pay;

    c) ration by quality (holding some things back); or

    d) ration by waiting time.

    We’ve firmly plumped for mostly D with some C. The mix and the amount varies by who’s in power.
    Yes that is a pretty good summary.

    A further issue in international comparisons is that the underlying amount of disease in each country is not the same. Different rates of obesity etc.
    How would you regard the state of British health against international peers?

    One assumes we are a bit fatter (and therefore more diabetic etc) than European counterparts, but perhaps being slightly younger evens it out?

  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,242
    Andy_JS said:

    Carnyx said:

    TimT said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    At a laundromat in Natchez, Mississippi. The kindness and friendliness of Southerners remains incredible

    Did you park outside?

    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America
    There are about 5 cities in America where you can get by without a car.
    I'll give it a try:
    NYC, Boston, San Francisco, Chicago and ... I was going to add Philly, but not really. And for all of them it requires you live pretty close in. It is not true for the suburbs.
    Seattle?
    Seattle AND environs have great bus service, actually more than one: Metro which has local & express buses serving all of King County; Sound Transit, which does regional light rail and express buses; also local buses in neighboring counties. PLUS we have Washington State Ferries and some other ferry routes that have LOTS of commuter traffic.

    BTW, cost to ride Metro for geezer like me = $1 including transfer ranging from min of 2 hours.

    IF you start early enough in the morning, you can take bus from my humble abode to downtown Seattle, catch ferry to Bainbridge Island, then bus (with one transfer) to Port Townsend at north end of Puget Sound. Then reverse in the afternoon, and be back by early evening.

    Plenty of folks here go hiking or skiing up in the mountains by first taking a bus to trail head or slopes, then catching one back when their done for the day.
    I spent 3 days in Seattle in 2017 and got around just by walking and using public transport. Walked up the enormous hill a few times which most people probably wouldn't want to do.
    Some folks do the walk up from downtown to Capitol Hill, for the exercise.

    More walk down, then take a bus (or streetcar) back up.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,087
    edited April 2022
    Foxy said:

    biggles said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Off topic...

    Next available appointment for a telephone consultation with a GP: 27 days' time. Let's hope I'm able to get to the phone!

    Good old NHS, it is the envy of the world you know? Certainly the envy of considerably lesser paid primary care doctors in the rest of the world.
    Actually that raises an interesting point. We get zillions of articles and broadcasts about how bad things currently are in the NHS, but I don't recall a single one which puts that into the context of how healthcare systems in other European countries, which must be faced with similar challenges, are doing. Are they doing better than us? Who knows?
    Answer, yes. For years the disparity was put down to lack of comparable funding. New Labour decided to destructively test this by hosing money at the NHS, and yes there were significant improvements, but huge amounts of cash was absorbed by eye watering pay increases for medical staff (the lower downs were less benefitted). Our primary care system was not rationalised so we are left with a system that duplicated services unnecessarily. It needs massive reform but this will always be blocked by the most powerful union in the world, the BMA. The only form of true deference in this country is to doctors. If you don't believe me, watch the free ride that BMA reps are given by TV journalists.
    Yet thanks to the NHS the UK still gets its healthcare on the cheap and was still getting reasonable outcomes until the pandemic struck. This is the latest (dated 2019) that I could find from the ONS:

    "In 2017, the UK spent £2,989 per person on healthcare, which was around the median for members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development: OECD (£2,913 per person). However, of the G7 group of large, developed economies, UK healthcare spending per person was the second-lowest, with the highest spenders being France (£3,737), Germany (£4,432) and the United States (£7,736)."


    Bollocks. What is the survey that @Richard_Tyndall links to showing that the NHS is internationally better than everyone else apart from, er, health outcomes and mortality.
    Was it the Civitas report just published? It shows the NHS does badly on most outcomes except for diabetes — huzzah for @Foxy — but if you read a couple of dozen pages past the headlines and into the report, there is a handy table showing Britain's per capita health spend is, erm, 14th. If we want French or German healthcare, we shall need to write some big cheques).
    https://civitas.org.uk/publications/international-health-care-outcomes-index-2022/
    Perhaps. As I said at the moment there is no coordination between different parts of the health service and no real incentive (aside from wanting to keep people alive/well) not to perform badly, as you say in almost every area.

    Is it about spending? Not sure - my impression is that it is the culture. Of resentment by the NHS workers at "the bosses/govt/the man". Would they do a better job if they were paid more? As I said, perhaps.
    Don't think so. When we threw substantial money at it in 2005-2010, waiting lists dropped like a stone (18 weeks vs previously up to 2 years). Clearly money isn't everything, but it does help!
    Yes, that is the case. What wasn't created was enough permenant increase in capacity. Most was done by overtime, and staff leaving the NHS to work as private sector contractors.

    The NHS is unusual amongst health care systems in that it has always constructed non-clinical barriers to care as a way of controlling government health care expenditure. The small numbers of staff, beds, ventilators, operating theatres etc is deliberate.

    This was a problem when surge capacity was needed in the pandemic, as the only way to create space was to convert operating theatres and redeploy staff. Now in the recovery phase we simply do not have the capacity to catch up. Not least because of staff attrition and minimal staff training in the last 2 years.

    When comparing health expenditure per capita across countries, one does need to adjust for local costs. Building land and construction is often more expensive here for example.
    Yup. You can:

    a) Fully fund all healthcare (ruinously expensive);

    b) ration by ability to pay;

    c) ration by quality (holding some things back); or

    d) ration by waiting time.

    We’ve firmly plumped for mostly D with some C. The mix and the amount varies by who’s in power.
    Yes that is a pretty good summary.

    A further issue in international comparisons is that the underlying amount of disease in each country is not the same. Different rates of obesity etc.
    A further issue is that international comparisons tend to be cherry-picked.

    At different time each party has an interest in saying - look the NHS is failing, and we must save it from *them* - and studies are available to help show it.

    The Commonwealth Fund studies, for example, are in quite significant measure an opinion poll as well as a data comparison, so on the last version one could show a failure on one statistic, or demonstrate well above average overall performance.

    A problem with the spending comparisons is that we have had major fluctuations against both Euro and Dollar in the last few years as it stabilises after Brexit, and those are still in the data.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,087
    edited April 2022
    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    kyf_100 said:

    MattW said:

    kyf_100 said:

    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    biggles said:

    kle4 said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Do people think he should? Is the crime looking at porn on a mobile phone or doing it in parliament? I can see why Angela Rayner could feel offended but I struggle to see who the hapless Neil Parish has upset unless he shared the film with someone inappropriate
    It is not, to my mind, a resigning matter. I think it appropriate he should face a party consequence, and possibly even some as an MP, since watching porn whilst you are supposed to be at work brings both into disrepute (maintaining high standards is not merely an issue of if you have upset someone) and would result in a warning or some disciplinary for others, but resigning over it would be very disproportionate.
    I think my place might think about whether it was gross misconduct if done on the floor plate in front of others, as opposed to hidden away.
    If I found an employee was in their own office, looking at porn when they were supposed to be working, it would be a disciplinary issue:

    "Oi. I pay you to work, not to look at porn. Don't do it again or there'll be serious consequences."

    On the other hand, if it was in a meeting, and other employees were exposed it, it would be a much more serious offence. I don't know whether it would merit immediate dismissal, but it certainly would be a lot more than just a talking to.
    Back in 1995/6, our senior system tester working on a Saturday was caught looking at Internet porn whilst system testing a telephone exchange in short timescales - in between tests whilst the exchange was processing.

    Director had previously announced a big posturing pose that anyone caught misusing the Internet at work would be sacked.

    So he ended up sacking his best and most experienced system tester, slowed the tests down as he had lost 15 years of experience, and the chap was working at a competitor for £1200 a week 7 days later.

    Overly dogmatic are a bad thing,
    If he'd been doing cocaine at work, would that be OK because he's a good worker? If he came to work drinks wearing an SS uniform, etc...

    It's not overly dogmatic to expect basic standards of decency from people while they're at work.
    It depends on your view of "basic standards of decency" in the context, doesn't it? And how sanctions should be graduated.

    In this case it was a Saturday, and no one else was there, and it delayed a new release (normal routine 1 release per 8-10 months) of the main product of a £100m business by some weeks. Detected via log files.

    My judgement in that case looking back (and for an occurrence now) would be a final written warning.

    As for SS uniform at work drinks - that also depends imo. Perhaps it would be themed around The Producers or Allo Allo. Personally I don't have much of a problem with satirising Nazis; laughing at them is an important part of taking them sufficiently serious imo - ditto similar groups on the far left. A "Producers" for Putin would be interesting, with that huge long table. Or perhaps for Iran.

    Doing cocaine is perhaps in a different category, as it is criminal under the law of the land - up to 7 years for possession. Viewing pornography is not criminal. Also drugs have an impact on work.
    My point was there's simply some stuff you don't do at work. The fact that you're trying to find possible excuses for someone turning up in SS garb says everything you need to know about the kind of contortions you'll go to in order to claim that watching porn in the workplace isn't a sackable offence.
    No it doesn't. Forgive my bluntness, but that statement is nonsense on stilts. You have to define your statement of what you can do or can't do at work. I think you are being rather too simplistic.

    Anyway, who the hell are you to state what my purposes or motivations are?

    Whether porn in the workplace is a instantly sackable offence is a matter for the workplace's policy, not 'automatically true', since it is not regulated by law (unless you have a law that does so?). If I was to make a technical case (which I'm not), I'd simply point out that Redtube or Playboy are .. er .. workplaces, where the presence of porn is presumably not a sackable offence, so the universalist claim instantly fails.

    Rather, I suggest you are trying to make everything black and white and that everyone agrees with your assumptions, when reality has shades of grey. I'm exploring the shades of grey. My example was one where the Engineering Director went off at the deep end, landed himself in a hole, and damaged his own business unnecessarily as he had removed all flexibility.

    There are grey areas as basic as how are you defining "porn"? What is it? Are you going to use a technical definition, or go with @NickPalmer 's 'offence to colleagues' idea.

    We then have the grey areas about what is offence, and does it apply equally to say different sexualities. Plenty of activists will claim that the offensiveness is down to demeaning men / women / other categories and that eg Miss World or Beach Volleyball or Fitness Posing or Beach Ogling by either sex / whichever self-identified gender is as offensive as more explicit material because the values are the same.

    Then we have the grey areas around policies such as 'personal internet use at lunchtime allowed'.

    Some things are clear, but there are vast grey areas around them. Where do you draw your lines?

    Should Neil Parish be expelled if he was watching a Wet Teeshirt competition? Beach Volleyball? Miss Universe? And if one colleague was offended, and another was not? What if the colleague is a known activist? How do you judge these things?
    Very easily, given the strong warnings in recent months and years about (un)Parliamentary behaviour. The HoC isn't the Playboy editorial office.
    If he goes, yes - it will basically be for being stupid.

    But you still have to define your terms or your process will not work reliably.

    However, we have politics driven by Outrage Bus on many of these issues, and that is a real problem.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    Foxy said:

    biggles said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Off topic...

    Next available appointment for a telephone consultation with a GP: 27 days' time. Let's hope I'm able to get to the phone!

    Good old NHS, it is the envy of the world you know? Certainly the envy of considerably lesser paid primary care doctors in the rest of the world.
    Actually that raises an interesting point. We get zillions of articles and broadcasts about how bad things currently are in the NHS, but I don't recall a single one which puts that into the context of how healthcare systems in other European countries, which must be faced with similar challenges, are doing. Are they doing better than us? Who knows?
    Answer, yes. For years the disparity was put down to lack of comparable funding. New Labour decided to destructively test this by hosing money at the NHS, and yes there were significant improvements, but huge amounts of cash was absorbed by eye watering pay increases for medical staff (the lower downs were less benefitted). Our primary care system was not rationalised so we are left with a system that duplicated services unnecessarily. It needs massive reform but this will always be blocked by the most powerful union in the world, the BMA. The only form of true deference in this country is to doctors. If you don't believe me, watch the free ride that BMA reps are given by TV journalists.
    Yet thanks to the NHS the UK still gets its healthcare on the cheap and was still getting reasonable outcomes until the pandemic struck. This is the latest (dated 2019) that I could find from the ONS:

    "In 2017, the UK spent £2,989 per person on healthcare, which was around the median for members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development: OECD (£2,913 per person). However, of the G7 group of large, developed economies, UK healthcare spending per person was the second-lowest, with the highest spenders being France (£3,737), Germany (£4,432) and the United States (£7,736)."


    Bollocks. What is the survey that @Richard_Tyndall links to showing that the NHS is internationally better than everyone else apart from, er, health outcomes and mortality.
    Was it the Civitas report just published? It shows the NHS does badly on most outcomes except for diabetes — huzzah for @Foxy — but if you read a couple of dozen pages past the headlines and into the report, there is a handy table showing Britain's per capita health spend is, erm, 14th. If we want French or German healthcare, we shall need to write some big cheques).
    https://civitas.org.uk/publications/international-health-care-outcomes-index-2022/
    Perhaps. As I said at the moment there is no coordination between different parts of the health service and no real incentive (aside from wanting to keep people alive/well) not to perform badly, as you say in almost every area.

    Is it about spending? Not sure - my impression is that it is the culture. Of resentment by the NHS workers at "the bosses/govt/the man". Would they do a better job if they were paid more? As I said, perhaps.
    Don't think so. When we threw substantial money at it in 2005-2010, waiting lists dropped like a stone (18 weeks vs previously up to 2 years). Clearly money isn't everything, but it does help!
    Yes, that is the case. What wasn't created was enough permenant increase in capacity. Most was done by overtime, and staff leaving the NHS to work as private sector contractors.

    The NHS is unusual amongst health care systems in that it has always constructed non-clinical barriers to care as a way of controlling government health care expenditure. The small numbers of staff, beds, ventilators, operating theatres etc is deliberate.

    This was a problem when surge capacity was needed in the pandemic, as the only way to create space was to convert operating theatres and redeploy staff. Now in the recovery phase we simply do not have the capacity to catch up. Not least because of staff attrition and minimal staff training in the last 2 years.

    When comparing health expenditure per capita across countries, one does need to adjust for local costs. Building land and construction is often more expensive here for example.
    Yup. You can:

    a) Fully fund all healthcare (ruinously expensive);

    b) ration by ability to pay;

    c) ration by quality (holding some things back); or

    d) ration by waiting time.

    We’ve firmly plumped for mostly D with some C. The mix and the amount varies by who’s in power.
    Yes that is a pretty good summary.

    A further issue in international comparisons is that the underlying amount of disease in each country is not the same. Different rates of obesity etc.
    How would you regard the state of British health against international peers?

    One assumes we are a bit fatter (and therefore more diabetic etc) than European counterparts, but perhaps being slightly younger evens it out?

    A bit mixed. We are healthier than the Russians, less healthy than the Danes.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,163
    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America

    My first American driving experience was driving from Los Angeles to Palm Springs, Getting out of LA was an experience - terrible roads.

    You don't need a car in Vegas but there's nothing like cruising along the Strip and you can access some of the very good restaurants to be found in Henderson and the other Vegas suburbs.
    The roads have been magnificent throughout this trip: Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi (Louisiana next and last). You really do have to drive in America (outside a few eastern cities), but they make sure driving is easy and smooth. The maintenance is immaculate. I have barely seen a pot hole in a week of driving. It puts the UK to shame, in that department
    If you want something a little unusual off the beaten track to do in Louisiana I recommend a visit to the leprosy museum a bit further down the river from Baton Rouge.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 4,534
    Lmao ! Neil Parish MP said he opened up the porn by accident ! And how would an enquiry prove this either way .

    Really it was a stupid thing to do and his denial reminds of those Little Britain sketches.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,242
    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Er, yeah, there wasn’t a Tube station right outside, and Uber barely exists in Natchez

    Have you not BEEN to America? You can’t go anywhere without a car. Which is one reason people should learn to drive: to see America

    My first American driving experience was driving from Los Angeles to Palm Springs, Getting out of LA was an experience - terrible roads.

    You don't need a car in Vegas but there's nothing like cruising along the Strip and you can access some of the very good restaurants to be found in Henderson and the other Vegas suburbs.
    The roads have been magnificent throughout this trip: Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi (Louisiana next and last). You really do have to drive in America (outside a few eastern cities), but they make sure driving is easy and smooth. The maintenance is immaculate. I have barely seen a pot hole in a week of driving. It puts the UK to shame, in that department
    If you want something a little unusual off the beaten track to do in Louisiana I recommend a visit to the leprosy museum a bit further down the river from Baton Rouge.
    When I was working my way though school by driving a taxi in Baton Rouge, we would get trips to take patients to and from the place when it was still a hospital treating Hansen's Disease. Was a VERY good fare as it was relatively long distance for a cab ride.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    edited April 2022
    MattW said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Off topic...

    Next available appointment for a telephone consultation with a GP: 27 days' time. Let's hope I'm able to get to the phone!

    Good old NHS, it is the envy of the world you know? Certainly the envy of considerably lesser paid primary care doctors in the rest of the world.
    Actually that raises an interesting point. We get zillions of articles and broadcasts about how bad things currently are in the NHS, but I don't recall a single one which puts that into the context of how healthcare systems in other European countries, which must be faced with similar challenges, are doing. Are they doing better than us? Who knows?
    Answer, yes. For years the disparity was put down to lack of comparable funding. New Labour decided to destructively test this by hosing money at the NHS, and yes there were significant improvements, but huge amounts of cash was absorbed by eye watering pay increases for medical staff (the lower downs were less benefitted). Our primary care system was not rationalised so we are left with a system that duplicated services unnecessarily. It needs massive reform but this will always be blocked by the most powerful union in the world, the BMA. The only form of true deference in this country is to doctors. If you don't believe me, watch the free ride that BMA reps are given by TV journalists.
    Yet thanks to the NHS the UK still gets its healthcare on the cheap and was still getting reasonable outcomes until the pandemic struck. This is the latest (dated 2019) that I could find from the ONS:

    "In 2017, the UK spent £2,989 per person on healthcare, which was around the median for members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development: OECD (£2,913 per person). However, of the G7 group of large, developed economies, UK healthcare spending per person was the second-lowest, with the highest spenders being France (£3,737), Germany (£4,432) and the United States (£7,736)."


    Bollocks. What is the survey that @Richard_Tyndall links to showing that the NHS is internationally better than everyone else apart from, er, health outcomes and mortality.
    Was it the Civitas report just published? It shows the NHS does badly on most outcomes except for diabetes — huzzah for @Foxy — but if you read a couple of dozen pages past the headlines and into the report, there is a handy table showing Britain's per capita health spend is, erm, 14th. If we want French or German healthcare, we shall need to write some big cheques).
    https://civitas.org.uk/publications/international-health-care-outcomes-index-2022/
    Perhaps. As I said at the moment there is no coordination between different parts of the health service and no real incentive (aside from wanting to keep people alive/well) not to perform badly, as you say in almost every area.

    Is it about spending? Not sure - my impression is that it is the culture. Of resentment by the NHS workers at "the bosses/govt/the man". Would they do a better job if they were paid more? As I said, perhaps.
    Don't think so. When we threw substantial money at it in 2005-2010, waiting lists dropped like a stone (18 weeks vs previously up to 2 years). Clearly money isn't everything, but it does help!
    I think this one will be interesting to watch, having personally had a *heck* of a lot of medical treatment during COVID.

    The last time I looked the Govt were pretty much on track on their Dr/Nurse recruitment targets in NHS England wrt the manifesto. But will that be enough? And how many more existing staff will leave than would have if the Govt had not politically and practically f*cked up the pay increase process last year?

    And waiting lists fell quite sharply during COVID at times when the pandemic was less of a load.

    But then waiting lists have gone back up, and there is an indeterminate backlog of cases that have not been identified, some of which may be more advanced and require more resources than if they had been detected.

    But weekend clinics are running in some places by third party organisations for extra capacity, and eg (one of mine) treatment for Type 1 Diabetics is in some respects being quite widely revolutionised (pumps and continuous or nearly-continuous blood glucose monitoring), which will be a large long term benefit. On another one, prevention or onset delay programmes for Type 2 Diabetics are having some success.

    And the Government targets seem to be quite cautious - little more than recovery to the pre-COVID position before the next election iirc.

    Very difficult to call objectively. Too many variables.
    Yes, the role out of Libre sensors for type 1 diabeties is going to be very positive in terms of long term complications, albeit expensive in the short term. Linking it to insulin pumps to have an "electronic pancreas" is the next step. In particular parents of childhood type1 really love them as they can link their phone to the libre 2 to be alarmed if a child goes hypo in the night. Previously they would sometimes be checking several times in the night.

    The Libre programme was something that Theresa May insisted on. The best legacy of her ill fated premiership. She has T1 diabetes, of late onset.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    The porn tape MP looks crushed. You'd have to have a heart of stone not to feel sorry for him. Labour should not get involved. It looks like kicking a man when he's down.

    .....and poor old Boris. Someone should have stepped in to pay off his debt. I feel even more sorry for him. He's a good guy.
This discussion has been closed.