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2022 once again the betting favorite for BoJo’s exit – politicalbetting.com

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  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    The ‘No to Nato’ campaign is showing signs of life in Sweden. At least we’re now going to have a proper debate. Sweden’s ‘alliansfriheten’ seems to have much deeper ideological roots than Finland’s.

    Presumably because the Swedes haven't faced anyone in open war for hundreds of years, while for Finns the Russian threat is one that is rooted in living memory.

    Chicken n Egg conundrum. Is Sweden peaceful because we are free, or are we free because we are peaceful?

    What on earth makes you think Swedes aren’t very well aware of Russian threats, both historic and contemporary? Swedish media has reported and commented such threats since time immemorial. Swedes are not unaffected by the experiences of our Nordic brothers in Finland, Norway, Iceland and Denmark, nor the rest of humanity.

    I was not seeking to knock the Swedes. Giving up a position of neutrality after generations observing it is a very, very big deal. I can understand entirely why it is such a tough call that will involve a lot of soul searching - despite the self-evident threats the country faces. My point was that Finnish history is very different, as is Finland's experience of Russia and, before and after that, the Soviet Union. Sweden's place in the Nordic family is also very interesting, IMO. In my experience, it is the one that the others define themselves against.

    An insightful post.

    Yes, Sweden is sometimes seen as the benchmark, the lodestar. Not just because we are twice the size of our immediate neighbours, and our central location, but for a complex range of other reasons.

    This is a grossly flawed analogy, but one could propose:

    Nordic cf Atlantic countries

    Sweden = England
    Finland = Wales
    Norway = Scotland
    Denmark = Ireland
    Iceland = Mann
  • Johnson will never resign, no matter what this standards committee comes up with.

    Only a VONC will get him out.

    If its clear that they will no confidence him and that he will lose, he will go. His last line of defence collapsed yesterday.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    edited April 2022

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Gloomy data: UK retail sales dropped 1.4% in March - more than the 0.3% fall economists expected - as Brits cut back on discretionary spending and non-essential journeys to deal with the cost of living (which is only set to rise...)

    Via @economics 👇🏾

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-22/u-k-retail-sales-fall-more-than-forecast-as-living-costs-bite

    Meanwhile, @GfK says consumer confidence sank for a 5th straight month in April, with Brits more pessimistic about the outlook for their personal finances and the economy than during the financial crisis - it's the level synonymous with recession:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-21/u-k-consumer-confidence-sinks-to-lowest-since-2008-recession https://twitter.com/lizzzburden/status/1517393837353750529/photo/1

    This is what is going to doom the Tories, unless they get a handle on it, the cost of living crisis. A genuine cost of living crisis is going on right now.

    I am not surprised consumer confidence is falling and if gas prices don't fall then the price cap when it is renewed will either go up or stay the same.

    Alot of the stuff that excited the political anoraks failed to resonate with the general public. The proverbial pound in the pocket is going to be one that really hits home.
    And the PM and Chancellor's response was to put up National Insurance and take money out of the working public's pocket.

    They deserve to go just for that insanity, let alone everything else.
    I agree completely Bart. It is madness. You were very vocal about it at the time and were absolutely correct in your analysis.

    It was dixiedean, I think, who first pointed out the effect this would have on the leisure and hospitality sector. Discretionary spend is going to tank. Especially when you have restaurants suffering price pressures on basics hiking prices.

    Shame on the rest of the party for nodding it through
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    JACK_W said:

    Test

    We know you're keen to get back on the PB horse but a Covid test at 4:02am is above and beyond ..

    That said, giddy up a negative test soonest. :mask:
    Glad to see Jacobite genes are sturdy virus repellents.
    They're good Stewarts of the body?
    Just think how a vaccine works. The immune system is primed against the real thing by sending it a series of pretenders.
    What happens when the series of pretenders start... Culloden?
    Bit late. Culloden was the end of the Wars of the Covenant.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    JACK_W said:

    Test

    We know you're keen to get back on the PB horse but a Covid test at 4:02am is above and beyond ..

    That said, giddy up a negative test soonest. :mask:
    Glad to see Jacobite genes are sturdy virus repellents.
    They're good Stewarts of the body?
    Just think how a vaccine works. The immune system is primed against the real thing by sending it a series of pretenders.
    What happens when the series of pretenders start... Culloden?
    Let's keep it real shall we? That's just blue Skye thinking.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,715
    Fraser Nelson is not convinced johnson will be ousted. No obvious successor, is his reading.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,249
    Nigelb said:

    The Russian army has shelled the Memorial to the Victims of Totalitarianism in Kharkiv damaging a part of the memorial tablets...
    The Memorial commemorates 3806 Polish officers and 500 Polish civilians murdered by Soviet secret police in Kharkiv as part of the Katyn massacre in 1940 as well as 2746 Kharkiv residents murdered in 1937-1938

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Hromadske/status/1517376430694445059

    I don’t know the physical nature of the memorial but this story could be either “Russia deliberate targeted memorial” or “Memorial collateral damage in shelling of town”

    It’s very different
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    So it is for targeting Russian artillery - which requires significantly longer range than tank busting.
    The Phoenix Ghost drone for Ukraine can

    - take off vertically
    - fly for six-plus hours searching for or tracking a target
    - operate at night using its infrared sensors and
    - is effective against medium armored targets

    - https://twitter.com/TheBaseLeg/status/1517332339768332288
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Committee chair & former minister Tobias Ellwood says that the war in Ukraine can no longer be used "as a fig leaf" to distract from the situation in No10. He adds "more and more MPs" believe it's time for the question of leadership in Downing Street to be looked at.
    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1517405640557309953
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Gloomy data: UK retail sales dropped 1.4% in March - more than the 0.3% fall economists expected - as Brits cut back on discretionary spending and non-essential journeys to deal with the cost of living (which is only set to rise...)

    Via @economics 👇🏾

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-22/u-k-retail-sales-fall-more-than-forecast-as-living-costs-bite

    Meanwhile, @GfK says consumer confidence sank for a 5th straight month in April, with Brits more pessimistic about the outlook for their personal finances and the economy than during the financial crisis - it's the level synonymous with recession:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-21/u-k-consumer-confidence-sinks-to-lowest-since-2008-recession https://twitter.com/lizzzburden/status/1517393837353750529/photo/1

    This is what is going to doom the Tories, unless they get a handle on it, the cost of living crisis. A genuine cost of living crisis is going on right now.

    I am not surprised consumer confidence is falling and if gas prices don't fall then the price cap when it is renewed will either go up or stay the same.

    Alot of the stuff that excited the political anoraks failed to resonate with the general public. The proverbial pound in the pocket is going to be one that really hits home.
    And the PM and Chancellor's response was to put up National Insurance and take money out of the working public's pocket.

    They deserve to go just for that insanity, let alone everything else.
    I agree completely Bart. It is madness.

    It was dixiedean, I think, who first pointed out the effect this would have on the leisure and hospitality sector. Discretionary spend is going to tank. Especially when you have restaurants suffering price pressures on basics hiking prices.

    Shame on the rest of the party for nodding it through
    I'd start worrying about the food industry itself, at this rate, with world food prices and shortages, and the farmers and fishermen already screwed over the Brexit promises of roast unicorn for dinner every Sunday. Wouldn't like to be a beef or pork farmer at the moment.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    BoZo's latest cosplay adventure is not looking like a genius move at this point...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,715

    Johnson will never resign, no matter what this standards committee comes up with.

    Only a VONC will get him out.

    If its clear that they will no confidence him and that he will lose, he will go. His last line of defence collapsed yesterday.
    I'm not convinced.

    The Tories on that committee will slow things down some how or other and before we know it we into late summer and it'll be "too near a GE to have a leadership election" time.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,249

    The sad truth for the Tories - and, more importantly, for the country - is that the cupboard is bare. There is no shining knight waiting to replace Johnson, if he ever goes. There are some plodders, such as Hunt, that may do less damage than the current incumbent but have little to offer beyond that; and then there are those, such as Truss, who would be embarrassingly out of their depth. The Tories have nothing now except division, confrontation and culture war - and the country needs a whole lot more than that. It's going to be a very, very painful few years - and we may not emerge from them in one piece.

    A “plodder” is often the right answer. Starker is a plodder. Of the PMs in recent memory they were all plodders except Thatcher, Blair and Johnson.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    JACK_W said:

    Test

    We know you're keen to get back on the PB horse but a Covid test at 4:02am is above and beyond ..

    That said, giddy up a negative test soonest. :mask:
    Glad to see Jacobite genes are sturdy virus repellents.
    They're good Stewarts of the body?
    Just think how a vaccine works. The immune system is primed against the real thing by sending it a series of pretenders.
    What happens when the series of pretenders start... Culloden?
    Let's keep it real shall we? That's just blue Skye thinking.
    That's just cave-illing.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Apropos of nothing in particular...

    https://twitter.com/WWIIpix/status/1517379849962364928
    This day in 1945, SS-Obergruppenführer Steiner refused to attack with Army Detachment upon realizing his units were inadequate and understrength to counterattack at Berlin. Hitler fell into a tearful rage against his generals, and declared that the war was lost.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    The point about the wrecking amendment and change of plan is well made. Doesn't mean the Tory ranks are downright mutinous, but they can only be asked to put their dignity on the line every so often, not persistently.

    They now do so continuously while they allow Johnson to remain leader.
    I'll amend, they can only be asked to do so in such a direct manner every so often. Choosing not to act is easier for them than having to stand up in a debate and trudge through the division lobby.
    I think we're beyond that.
    Inaction is now a deliberate choice, with consequences.
    I'm not disagreeing with that at all. I'm saying it's an easier choice to make when not being forced into political theater by the leader.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386

    The sad truth for the Tories - and, more importantly, for the country - is that the cupboard is bare. There is no shining knight waiting to replace Johnson, if he ever goes. There are some plodders, such as Hunt, that may do less damage than the current incumbent but have little to offer beyond that; and then there are those, such as Truss, who would be embarrassingly out of their depth. The Tories have nothing now except division, confrontation and culture war - and the country needs a whole lot more than that. It's going to be a very, very painful few years - and we may not emerge from them in one piece.

    A “plodder” is often the right answer. Starker is a plodder. Of the PMs in recent memory they were all plodders except Thatcher, Blair and Johnson.
    Epic typo...a sign he's getting to the naked truth?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Gloomy data: UK retail sales dropped 1.4% in March - more than the 0.3% fall economists expected - as Brits cut back on discretionary spending and non-essential journeys to deal with the cost of living (which is only set to rise...)

    Via @economics 👇🏾

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-22/u-k-retail-sales-fall-more-than-forecast-as-living-costs-bite

    Meanwhile, @GfK says consumer confidence sank for a 5th straight month in April, with Brits more pessimistic about the outlook for their personal finances and the economy than during the financial crisis - it's the level synonymous with recession:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-21/u-k-consumer-confidence-sinks-to-lowest-since-2008-recession https://twitter.com/lizzzburden/status/1517393837353750529/photo/1

    This is what is going to doom the Tories, unless they get a handle on it, the cost of living crisis. A genuine cost of living crisis is going on right now.

    I am not surprised consumer confidence is falling and if gas prices don't fall then the price cap when it is renewed will either go up or stay the same.

    Alot of the stuff that excited the political anoraks failed to resonate with the general public. The proverbial pound in the pocket is going to be one that really hits home.
    And the PM and Chancellor's response was to put up National Insurance and take money out of the working public's pocket.

    They deserve to go just for that insanity, let alone everything else.
    I agree completely Bart. It is madness. You were very vocal about it at the time and were absolutely correct in your analysis.

    It was dixiedean, I think, who first pointed out the effect this would have on the leisure and hospitality sector. Discretionary spend is going to tank. Especially when you have restaurants suffering price pressures on basics hiking prices.

    Shame on the rest of the party for nodding it through
    The rest of the party is non-cerebral. They are, quite literally, too thick.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Oh dear...

    Boris Johnson yesterday said he wants to secure a free trade deal with India by the Autumn

    Narendra Modi only says he wants to 'make all efforts to conclude the FTA by the end of the year'

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1517406842313654272
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921

    The sad truth for the Tories - and, more importantly, for the country - is that the cupboard is bare. There is no shining knight waiting to replace Johnson, if he ever goes. There are some plodders, such as Hunt, that may do less damage than the current incumbent but have little to offer beyond that; and then there are those, such as Truss, who would be embarrassingly out of their depth. The Tories have nothing now except division, confrontation and culture war - and the country needs a whole lot more than that. It's going to be a very, very painful few years - and we may not emerge from them in one piece.

    A “plodder” is often the right answer. Starker is a plodder. Of the PMs in recent memory they were all plodders except Thatcher, Blair and Johnson.
    The former 2 the only postwar PMs to win 10 years in power and 3 consecutive general elections too and Johnson the only PM other than Blair since Thatcher to win a majority over 50
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    ydoethur said:

    The sad truth for the Tories - and, more importantly, for the country - is that the cupboard is bare. There is no shining knight waiting to replace Johnson, if he ever goes. There are some plodders, such as Hunt, that may do less damage than the current incumbent but have little to offer beyond that; and then there are those, such as Truss, who would be embarrassingly out of their depth. The Tories have nothing now except division, confrontation and culture war - and the country needs a whole lot more than that. It's going to be a very, very painful few years - and we may not emerge from them in one piece.

    A “plodder” is often the right answer. Starker is a plodder. Of the PMs in recent memory they were all plodders except Thatcher, Blair and Johnson.
    Epic typo...a sign he's getting to the naked truth?
    There is only wan keir.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,218

    Fraser Nelson is not convinced johnson will be ousted. No obvious successor, is his reading.

    In most minds, one of the signs of a good leader is to ensure that there is at least one, preferably several, successors ready.

    Boris is not a good leader.

    (Though in some ways, leaving him in place to take the rap in 2024 might be best, in a "nature's way is sometimes harsh" sort of way. The events of 1990 cast a long shadow over the Conservatives, and annointing and deposing BoJo within 3 years is taking the Mickey.)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    kamski said:

    ydoethur said:

    The ‘No to Nato’ campaign is showing signs of life in Sweden. At least we’re now going to have a proper debate. Sweden’s ‘alliansfriheten’ seems to have much deeper ideological roots than Finland’s.

    If I remember rightly the last time Sweden and Russia went to war was when Russia annexed Finland in 1809. It maintained studious neutrality in both World Wars and refused to join NATO during the Cold War even though they entered into a number of unofficial or semi-official enterprises with it.

    Meanwhile Finland has faced repeated threats from Russia ever since it regained its independence in 1917 and shares a long, problematic land border with a neighbour who appears to be suffering from enough collective paranoia to make the State of Israel blink.

    I am not surprised that NATO membership is therefore more controversial in Sweden than in Finland. Whether that is ultimately sustainable without radical changes in Russia itself is a different question.
    Point of information: Finland did not regain its independence in 1917. Remove the “re”.

    Icelandic independence 1944
    Finnish independence 1917
    Norwegian independence 1905
    Swedish independence 1523
    Danish unification, first half of the 10th century

    The Nordic states are mostly much younger than you’d initially suspect.
    And yet other people say the kingdom of Norway was founded in 872?

    Most countries haven't existed in their current form for very long.
    Indeed. England and Scotland are not ancient countries, though currently subsumed in another entity, for instance.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386

    ydoethur said:

    The sad truth for the Tories - and, more importantly, for the country - is that the cupboard is bare. There is no shining knight waiting to replace Johnson, if he ever goes. There are some plodders, such as Hunt, that may do less damage than the current incumbent but have little to offer beyond that; and then there are those, such as Truss, who would be embarrassingly out of their depth. The Tories have nothing now except division, confrontation and culture war - and the country needs a whole lot more than that. It's going to be a very, very painful few years - and we may not emerge from them in one piece.

    A “plodder” is often the right answer. Starker is a plodder. Of the PMs in recent memory they were all plodders except Thatcher, Blair and Johnson.
    Epic typo...a sign he's getting to the naked truth?
    There is only wan keir.
    The wan keir stands opposite Starker at the despatch box, trying to mass debate with him...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Fraser Nelson is not convinced johnson will be ousted. No obvious successor, is his reading.

    My own MP, an ultra loyalist has told me he would have voted with Labour yesterday had the vote gone ahead.

    I get the impression Johnson's accepted contrition in the HoC Chamber on Tuesday was quickly undone by his unrepentant, ebullient presentation to Conservative MPs a little later.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386
    kle4 said:

    kamski said:

    ydoethur said:

    The ‘No to Nato’ campaign is showing signs of life in Sweden. At least we’re now going to have a proper debate. Sweden’s ‘alliansfriheten’ seems to have much deeper ideological roots than Finland’s.

    If I remember rightly the last time Sweden and Russia went to war was when Russia annexed Finland in 1809. It maintained studious neutrality in both World Wars and refused to join NATO during the Cold War even though they entered into a number of unofficial or semi-official enterprises with it.

    Meanwhile Finland has faced repeated threats from Russia ever since it regained its independence in 1917 and shares a long, problematic land border with a neighbour who appears to be suffering from enough collective paranoia to make the State of Israel blink.

    I am not surprised that NATO membership is therefore more controversial in Sweden than in Finland. Whether that is ultimately sustainable without radical changes in Russia itself is a different question.
    Point of information: Finland did not regain its independence in 1917. Remove the “re”.

    Icelandic independence 1944
    Finnish independence 1917
    Norwegian independence 1905
    Swedish independence 1523
    Danish unification, first half of the 10th century

    The Nordic states are mostly much younger than you’d initially suspect.
    And yet other people say the kingdom of Norway was founded in 872?

    Most countries haven't existed in their current form for very long.
    Indeed. England and Scotland are not ancient countries, though currently subsumed in another entity, for instance.
    Depends what you mean by 'ancient,' of course. Scotland has a reasonable claim to date from the 840s, England from about the 930s.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Fraser Nelson is not convinced johnson will be ousted. No obvious successor, is his reading.

    Fraser Nelson. Dearie dearie dearie me.

    When they write the obituary of the once mighty Conservative Party, Nelson and his repulsive ilk will get more than a footnote in the Decline & Fall section.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,249

    The ‘No to Nato’ campaign is showing signs of life in Sweden. At least we’re now going to have a proper debate. Sweden’s ‘alliansfriheten’ seems to have much deeper ideological roots than Finland’s.

    Presumably because the Swedes haven't faced anyone in open war for hundreds of years, while for Finns the Russian threat is one that is rooted in living memory.

    Chicken n Egg conundrum. Is Sweden peaceful because we are free, or are we free because we are peaceful?

    What on earth makes you think Swedes aren’t very well aware of Russian threats, both historic and contemporary? Swedish media has reported and commented such threats since time immemorial. Swedes are not unaffected by the experiences of our Nordic brothers in Finland, Norway, Iceland and Denmark, nor the rest of humanity.

    I was not seeking to knock the Swedes. Giving up a position of neutrality after generations observing it is a very, very big deal. I can understand entirely why it is such a tough call that will involve a lot of soul searching - despite the self-evident threats the country faces. My point was that Finnish history is very different, as is Finland's experience of Russia and, before and after that, the Soviet Union. Sweden's place in the Nordic family is also very interesting, IMO. In my experience, it is the one that the others define themselves against.

    An insightful post.

    Yes, Sweden is sometimes seen as the benchmark, the lodestar. Not just because we are twice the size of our immediate neighbours, and our central location, but for a complex range of other reasons.

    This is a grossly flawed analogy, but one could propose:

    Nordic cf Atlantic countries

    Sweden = England
    Finland = Wales
    Norway = Scotland
    Denmark = Ireland
    Iceland = Mann
    Oi! What about the Faroes?!

    Lundy?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    edited April 2022

    Fraser Nelson is not convinced johnson will be ousted. No obvious successor, is his reading.

    Fraser Nelson. Dearie dearie dearie me.

    When they write the obituary of the once mighty Conservative Party, Nelson and his repulsive ilk will get more than a footnote in the Decline & Fall section.
    LIke Gibbon's treatment of the Christians and their impact on the Empire?

    Edit: whatever one thinks personally, there's no doubt about his attack on them for spoiling the antique virtue of the Roman.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Not sure how BoZo intends to sell this to the "ship 'em to Rwanda" voters...

    Indian PM Modi says he wants to 'further strengthen' the 'living bridge' between the UK and India.

    Appears to be a call for London to let more Indians migrate to the UK.

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1517407890482819072
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    Carnyx said:

    IN other news, weather so dry on the West Coast of Scotland that a wildfire warning has been issued.

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/20084760.extreme-risk-wildfires-declared-weekend-fire-rescue-service/

    We are loving it Carnyx
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Gloomy data: UK retail sales dropped 1.4% in March - more than the 0.3% fall economists expected - as Brits cut back on discretionary spending and non-essential journeys to deal with the cost of living (which is only set to rise...)

    Via @economics 👇🏾

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-22/u-k-retail-sales-fall-more-than-forecast-as-living-costs-bite

    Meanwhile, @GfK says consumer confidence sank for a 5th straight month in April, with Brits more pessimistic about the outlook for their personal finances and the economy than during the financial crisis - it's the level synonymous with recession:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-21/u-k-consumer-confidence-sinks-to-lowest-since-2008-recession https://twitter.com/lizzzburden/status/1517393837353750529/photo/1

    This is what is going to doom the Tories, unless they get a handle on it, the cost of living crisis. A genuine cost of living crisis is going on right now.

    I am not surprised consumer confidence is falling and if gas prices don't fall then the price cap when it is renewed will either go up or stay the same.

    Alot of the stuff that excited the political anoraks failed to resonate with the general public. The proverbial pound in the pocket is going to be one that really hits home.
    Yes. People may even think it's the anorak stuff that is driving them, when were it not for cost of living they might not react to the same issues at all.

    As the circumstance changes, the same events can be seen differently.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    nico679 said:

    Latest Odoxa poll shows a much tighter race than any other pollster.

    Fieldwork 20/21 April

    Macron 53
    Le Pen 47

    No change on their previous poll.

    All polls still have Le Pen over 40% including fully post debate ones.

    In some ways it suits her to have Macron in front, Brexit and Trump were won from being behind in the polls but still in range. If she was ahead or tied with Macron most Melenchon voters for instance would make the effort to hold their nose and vote for Macron, as it is many will stay home if he looks safe.

    The odds favour a solid Macron win but it will still be closer than 2017 and a shock Le Pen narrow win is not impossible on a low turnout
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    IN other news, weather so dry on the West Coast of Scotland that a wildfire warning has been issued.

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/20084760.extreme-risk-wildfires-declared-weekend-fire-rescue-service/

    We are loving it Carnyx
    Cool overcast here - NE wind off the North Sea; we had a haar overnight.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386
    Carnyx said:

    Fraser Nelson is not convinced johnson will be ousted. No obvious successor, is his reading.

    Fraser Nelson. Dearie dearie dearie me.

    When they write the obituary of the once mighty Conservative Party, Nelson and his repulsive ilk will get more than a footnote in the Decline & Fall section.
    LIke Gibbon's treatment of the Christians and their impact on the Empire?
    Although that was made up, of course.

    By contrast, hard to overstate the impact of sections of the media in the madness that has gripped the Tory party. Heck, some of them (Gove and Johnson) are even senior figures in the government.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The sad truth for the Tories - and, more importantly, for the country - is that the cupboard is bare. There is no shining knight waiting to replace Johnson, if he ever goes. There are some plodders, such as Hunt, that may do less damage than the current incumbent but have little to offer beyond that; and then there are those, such as Truss, who would be embarrassingly out of their depth. The Tories have nothing now except division, confrontation and culture war - and the country needs a whole lot more than that. It's going to be a very, very painful few years - and we may not emerge from them in one piece.

    A “plodder” is often the right answer. Starker is a plodder. Of the PMs in recent memory they were all plodders except Thatcher, Blair and Johnson.
    Epic typo...a sign he's getting to the naked truth?
    There is only wan keir.
    The wan keir stands opposite Starker at the despatch box, trying to mass debate with him...
    You win.

    Post of the week. Heck, the month.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Johnson's survival depends on how bad the local elections and polls get. If Labour have a 10%+ lead in the polls and local elections NEV and the Tories lose over 500 councillors then he likely loses a VONC if he does not resign.

    However if the Labour lead is only around 5% or so and the local elections are bad but not disastrous then he will likely still survive

    I don't think that is true any longer. After Tuesday and after the backbench and junior minister revolt over yesterday's motion he is finished. No matter what.
    He will face a VONC now no matter what but if the polls and local elections are not too disastrous he will likely narrowly still win it
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Fraser Nelson is not convinced johnson will be ousted. No obvious successor, is his reading.

    Fraser Nelson. Dearie dearie dearie me.

    When they write the obituary of the once mighty Conservative Party, Nelson and his repulsive ilk will get more than a footnote in the Decline & Fall section.
    LIke Gibbon's treatment of the Christians and their impact on the Empire?
    Although that was made up, of course.

    By contrast, hard to overstate the impact of sections of the media in the madness that has gripped the Tory party. Heck, some of them (Gove and Johnson) are even senior figures in the government.
    Well, a Gibbon on the Christians treatment would be even more appropriate in that case, even if it turns out to be true ...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    Nigelb said:

    The Russian army has shelled the Memorial to the Victims of Totalitarianism in Kharkiv damaging a part of the memorial tablets...
    The Memorial commemorates 3806 Polish officers and 500 Polish civilians murdered by Soviet secret police in Kharkiv as part of the Katyn massacre in 1940 as well as 2746 Kharkiv residents murdered in 1937-1938

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Hromadske/status/1517376430694445059

    I don’t know the physical nature of the memorial but this story could be either “Russia deliberate targeted memorial” or “Memorial collateral damage in shelling of town”

    It’s very different
    No difference , they are still barstewards of the first order, just repeating what they have done many times before.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    I see that the report here that the Privileges Committee has lay members was mistaken - it does, so it does have a built-in Tory majority.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/apr/21/what-is-the-commons-privileges-committee-and-how-powerful-is-it

    As others have said, two of the Tories have fairly marginal seats, so may not be in a mood to be too reckless about clearing the PM. But I suspect that in practice the issue will really come down to whether most Tory MPs have come to feel they'd be better off with an unknown successor at the whim of members, and that in turn hinges on the local elections and the Sue Gray report (I don't think more fines will do it by themselves).

    Tories who fancy a different PM may therefore have an actual incentive to vote Labour in two weeks even if they have no sympathy for Labour whatsoever (yes, I have an ulterior motive!). It's a curious state of affairs.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,249
    Scott_xP said:

    Oh dear...

    Boris Johnson yesterday said he wants to secure a free trade deal with India by the Autumn

    Narendra Modi only says he wants to 'make all efforts to conclude the FTA by the end of the year'

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1517406842313654272

    You never actually negotiate anything in real life do you?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Johnson's survival depends on how bad the local elections and polls get. If Labour have a 10%+ lead in the polls and local elections NEV and the Tories lose over 500 councillors then he likely loses a VONC if he does not resign.

    However if the Labour lead is only around 5% or so and the local elections are bad but not disastrous then he will likely still survive

    I don't think that is true any longer. After Tuesday and after the backbench and junior minister revolt over yesterday's motion he is finished. No matter what.
    The "just bluster through it" defence collapsed utterly yesterday.
    I do believe in tipping points. I think standard bluster tends to work. I will be surprised if pleased if, to their shock, the PM and his inner circle find that the angry Tories really meant it. That they didn't think the time was right, but they are not, as he is, pretending to think it important until they can get past it. That they actually think it is important.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    The ‘No to Nato’ campaign is showing signs of life in Sweden. At least we’re now going to have a proper debate. Sweden’s ‘alliansfriheten’ seems to have much deeper ideological roots than Finland’s.

    Presumably because the Swedes haven't faced anyone in open war for hundreds of years, while for Finns the Russian threat is one that is rooted in living memory.

    Chicken n Egg conundrum. Is Sweden peaceful because we are free, or are we free because we are peaceful?

    What on earth makes you think Swedes aren’t very well aware of Russian threats, both historic and contemporary? Swedish media has reported and commented such threats since time immemorial. Swedes are not unaffected by the experiences of our Nordic brothers in Finland, Norway, Iceland and Denmark, nor the rest of humanity.

    I was not seeking to knock the Swedes. Giving up a position of neutrality after generations observing it is a very, very big deal. I can understand entirely why it is such a tough call that will involve a lot of soul searching - despite the self-evident threats the country faces. My point was that Finnish history is very different, as is Finland's experience of Russia and, before and after that, the Soviet Union. Sweden's place in the Nordic family is also very interesting, IMO. In my experience, it is the one that the others define themselves against.

    An insightful post.

    Yes, Sweden is sometimes seen as the benchmark, the lodestar. Not just because we are twice the size of our immediate neighbours, and our central location, but for a complex range of other reasons.

    This is a grossly flawed analogy, but one could propose:

    Nordic cf Atlantic countries

    Sweden = England
    Finland = Wales
    Norway = Scotland
    Denmark = Ireland
    Iceland = Mann
    Deeply flawed analogies are my favourite kind.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652
    edited April 2022

    The ‘No to Nato’ campaign is showing signs of life in Sweden. At least we’re now going to have a proper debate. Sweden’s ‘alliansfriheten’ seems to have much deeper ideological roots than Finland’s.

    Presumably because the Swedes haven't faced anyone in open war for hundreds of years, while for Finns the Russian threat is one that is rooted in living memory.

    Chicken n Egg conundrum. Is Sweden peaceful because we are free, or are we free because we are peaceful?

    What on earth makes you think Swedes aren’t very well aware of Russian threats, both historic and contemporary? Swedish media has reported and commented such threats since time immemorial. Swedes are not unaffected by the experiences of our Nordic brothers in Finland, Norway, Iceland and Denmark, nor the rest of humanity.

    I was not seeking to knock the Swedes. Giving up a position of neutrality after generations observing it is a very, very big deal. I can understand entirely why it is such a tough call that will involve a lot of soul searching - despite the self-evident threats the country faces. My point was that Finnish history is very different, as is Finland's experience of Russia and, before and after that, the Soviet Union. Sweden's place in the Nordic family is also very interesting, IMO. In my experience, it is the one that the others define themselves against.

    An insightful post.

    Yes, Sweden is sometimes seen as the benchmark, the lodestar. Not just because we are twice the size of our immediate neighbours, and our central location, but for a complex range of other reasons.

    This is a grossly flawed analogy, but one could propose:

    Nordic cf Atlantic countries

    Sweden = England
    Finland = Wales
    Norway = Scotland
    Denmark = Ireland
    Iceland = Mann

    Again, my experience only is that Iceland sits a little apart. People there seem to look to Denmark, to the Faeroes and perhaps to Greenland. I don't think they feel an equally close affinity with Norway, Sweden and Finland. They are step-brothers rather than blood brothers.

    The way I see it is that Sweden is the bigger Nordic brother that the rest of them admire, slightly mistrust and relentlessly and affectionately take the piss out of.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Hmmm. In joint statements standing together Indian PM Modi says he wants trade deal by end of year but Boris Johnson says he wants it done by Diwali in October.
    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1517409970752753664
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    🚨🚨🚨NEW: the Westminster farce also leads to farcical policy-making: like ordering Englands top 20 cities to increase house building by 35%...even when some were already missing their old targets! With @GeorgeNHammond & killer graphix by @theboysmithy/1
    https://www.ft.com/content/f5186935-aec3-4e16-b5ba-a29d4a1b6af7
  • Johnson will never resign, no matter what this standards committee comes up with.

    Only a VONC will get him out.

    If you mean a vote by his mps following the submission of letters then half his mps plus 1 need to vote him out

    On the other hand if there is a vonc in the HOC it will fail
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,912

    I’ve been out exploring more of Barcelona and looking for coffee under the rising sun. It’s a beautiful city, and far more pleasant to walk around when the streets are practically empty. It’s insanely busy here! I’ve managed to avoid a pickpocketing, possibly by looking very poor - I’ve been brandishing my ancient iPhone 6 (well using it to find where I am) which I think is a reliable, modern and international indicator for not having much dosh!

    At the last coffee place I managed to join in a conversation between the two Catalan ladies working there and, I think, a Scandinavian chap drinking an espresso at the bar (he was speaking Spanish with an accent). They seemed to be discussing the similarities between Catalan and French - one lady was saying café con leche and café au lait, then gracias and merci, both of which French terms I’ve heard in Catalan. I piped up with “Si us plau and s’il vous plait”. Both ladies immediately pointed at me nodding and spoke very quickly to me in Catalan.

    I had to then reveal my Eng-norance, but managed to explain in my shaky French that I’d noticed many similarities between French and Catalan. I added for my final flourish that I believe French had taken the words from Catalan (a ‘fact’ given to me by my translator friend I spent the afternoon drinking with at the bus station the other day). This won a “Brava!” From a very old Catalan gent sitting in the café, who then seemed to go into an old man rant at nobody in particular.

    I brought my coffee out here to just watch people go by for a bit..

    Les Ramblas...don't you just long to be back in the EU? Those multi lingual conversations was one of the things I loved...
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Gloomy data: UK retail sales dropped 1.4% in March - more than the 0.3% fall economists expected - as Brits cut back on discretionary spending and non-essential journeys to deal with the cost of living (which is only set to rise...)

    Via @economics 👇🏾

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-22/u-k-retail-sales-fall-more-than-forecast-as-living-costs-bite

    Meanwhile, @GfK says consumer confidence sank for a 5th straight month in April, with Brits more pessimistic about the outlook for their personal finances and the economy than during the financial crisis - it's the level synonymous with recession:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-21/u-k-consumer-confidence-sinks-to-lowest-since-2008-recession https://twitter.com/lizzzburden/status/1517393837353750529/photo/1

    This is what is going to doom the Tories, unless they get a handle on it, the cost of living crisis. A genuine cost of living crisis is going on right now.

    I am not surprised consumer confidence is falling and if gas prices don't fall then the price cap when it is renewed will either go up or stay the same.

    Alot of the stuff that excited the political anoraks failed to resonate with the general public. The proverbial pound in the pocket is going to be one that really hits home.
    And the PM and Chancellor's response was to put up National Insurance and take money out of the working public's pocket.

    They deserve to go just for that insanity, let alone everything else.
    I agree completely Bart. It is madness.

    It was dixiedean, I think, who first pointed out the effect this would have on the leisure and hospitality sector. Discretionary spend is going to tank. Especially when you have restaurants suffering price pressures on basics hiking prices.

    Shame on the rest of the party for nodding it through
    I'd start worrying about the food industry itself, at this rate, with world food prices and shortages, and the farmers and fishermen already screwed over the Brexit promises of roast unicorn for dinner every Sunday. Wouldn't like to be a beef or pork farmer at the moment.
    Yes, you are right and we saw when COVID first came nations started barring exports of products like Rice and Wheat that will probably happen again.

    We will not be able to rely on Ukraine for wheat or sunflower oil due to the conflict.

    The govt will not be able to keep blaming COVID or Ukraine or anything else for their failings.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,218

    Scott_xP said:

    Oh dear...

    Boris Johnson yesterday said he wants to secure a free trade deal with India by the Autumn

    Narendra Modi only says he wants to 'make all efforts to conclude the FTA by the end of the year'

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1517406842313654272

    You never actually negotiate anything in real life do you?
    Boris certainly hasn't.

    Once again, he's created gentle time pressure on himself which could lead to him swallowing a worse deal as a result.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Oh dear...

    Boris Johnson yesterday said he wants to secure a free trade deal with India by the Autumn

    Narendra Modi only says he wants to 'make all efforts to conclude the FTA by the end of the year'

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1517406842313654272

    There are many things to attack Boris on but that is pathetic
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    kamski said:

    ydoethur said:

    The ‘No to Nato’ campaign is showing signs of life in Sweden. At least we’re now going to have a proper debate. Sweden’s ‘alliansfriheten’ seems to have much deeper ideological roots than Finland’s.

    If I remember rightly the last time Sweden and Russia went to war was when Russia annexed Finland in 1809. It maintained studious neutrality in both World Wars and refused to join NATO during the Cold War even though they entered into a number of unofficial or semi-official enterprises with it.

    Meanwhile Finland has faced repeated threats from Russia ever since it regained its independence in 1917 and shares a long, problematic land border with a neighbour who appears to be suffering from enough collective paranoia to make the State of Israel blink.

    I am not surprised that NATO membership is therefore more controversial in Sweden than in Finland. Whether that is ultimately sustainable without radical changes in Russia itself is a different question.
    Point of information: Finland did not regain its independence in 1917. Remove the “re”.

    Icelandic independence 1944
    Finnish independence 1917
    Norwegian independence 1905
    Swedish independence 1523
    Danish unification, first half of the 10th century

    The Nordic states are mostly much younger than you’d initially suspect.
    And yet other people say the kingdom of Norway was founded in 872?

    Most countries haven't existed in their current form for very long.
    Indeed. England and Scotland are not ancient countries, though currently subsumed in another entity, for instance.
    Depends what you mean by 'ancient,' of course. Scotland has a reasonable claim to date from the 840s, England from about the 930s.
    Granted that's not ancient ancient. I wasnt using it in a professional way. But as relatively united and consistent polities go it's pretty ancient when you consider the rise of the nation state and explosion of countries in recent centuries.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Johnson's survival depends on how bad the local elections and polls get. If Labour have a 10%+ lead in the polls and local elections NEV and the Tories lose over 500 councillors then he likely loses a VONC if he does not resign.

    However if the Labour lead is only around 5% or so and the local elections are bad but not disastrous then he will likely still survive

    I don't think that is true any longer. After Tuesday and after the backbench and junior minister revolt over yesterday's motion he is finished. No matter what.
    He will face a VONC now no matter what but if the polls and local elections are not too disastrous he will likely narrowly still win it
    Surely a narrow win would pretty much hole him below the water line anyway.

    He couldn't possibly carry on ?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,218
    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Gloomy data: UK retail sales dropped 1.4% in March - more than the 0.3% fall economists expected - as Brits cut back on discretionary spending and non-essential journeys to deal with the cost of living (which is only set to rise...)

    Via @economics 👇🏾

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-22/u-k-retail-sales-fall-more-than-forecast-as-living-costs-bite

    Meanwhile, @GfK says consumer confidence sank for a 5th straight month in April, with Brits more pessimistic about the outlook for their personal finances and the economy than during the financial crisis - it's the level synonymous with recession:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-21/u-k-consumer-confidence-sinks-to-lowest-since-2008-recession https://twitter.com/lizzzburden/status/1517393837353750529/photo/1

    This is what is going to doom the Tories, unless they get a handle on it, the cost of living crisis. A genuine cost of living crisis is going on right now.

    I am not surprised consumer confidence is falling and if gas prices don't fall then the price cap when it is renewed will either go up or stay the same.

    Alot of the stuff that excited the political anoraks failed to resonate with the general public. The proverbial pound in the pocket is going to be one that really hits home.
    Yes. People may even think it's the anorak stuff that is driving them, when were it not for cost of living they might not react to the same issues at all.

    As the circumstance changes, the same events can be seen differently.
    Most people have more sense than to interact with the news in detail.

    But If the money runs out before the month does, everyone notices. Which is why the "not our fault" stuff doesn't work- most people don't get to hear it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Johnson's survival depends on how bad the local elections and polls get. If Labour have a 10%+ lead in the polls and local elections NEV and the Tories lose over 500 councillors then he likely loses a VONC if he does not resign.

    However if the Labour lead is only around 5% or so and the local elections are bad but not disastrous then he will likely still survive

    I don't think that is true any longer. After Tuesday and after the backbench and junior minister revolt over yesterday's motion he is finished. No matter what.
    He will face a VONC now no matter what but if the polls and local elections are not too disastrous he will likely narrowly still win it
    Surely a narrow win would pretty much hole him below the water line anyway.

    He couldn't possibly carry on ?
    He'd be happy to carry on on a 52% score.
  • Fraser Nelson is not convinced johnson will be ousted. No obvious successor, is his reading.

    My own MP, an ultra loyalist has told me he would have voted with Labour yesterday had the vote gone ahead.

    I get the impression Johnson's accepted contrition in the HoC Chamber on Tuesday was quickly undone by his unrepentant, ebullient presentation to Conservative MPs a little later.
    And his disappearance to India on the day of the debate
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    edited April 2022

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Gloomy data: UK retail sales dropped 1.4% in March - more than the 0.3% fall economists expected - as Brits cut back on discretionary spending and non-essential journeys to deal with the cost of living (which is only set to rise...)

    Via @economics 👇🏾

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-22/u-k-retail-sales-fall-more-than-forecast-as-living-costs-bite

    Meanwhile, @GfK says consumer confidence sank for a 5th straight month in April, with Brits more pessimistic about the outlook for their personal finances and the economy than during the financial crisis - it's the level synonymous with recession:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-21/u-k-consumer-confidence-sinks-to-lowest-since-2008-recession https://twitter.com/lizzzburden/status/1517393837353750529/photo/1

    This is what is going to doom the Tories, unless they get a handle on it, the cost of living crisis. A genuine cost of living crisis is going on right now.

    I am not surprised consumer confidence is falling and if gas prices don't fall then the price cap when it is renewed will either go up or stay the same.

    Alot of the stuff that excited the political anoraks failed to resonate with the general public. The proverbial pound in the pocket is going to be one that really hits home.
    Yes. People may even think it's the anorak stuff that is driving them, when were it not for cost of living they might not react to the same issues at all.

    As the circumstance changes, the same events can be seen differently.
    Most people have more sense than to interact with the news in detail.

    But If the money runs out before the month does, everyone notices. Which is why the "not our fault" stuff doesn't work- most people don't get to hear it.
    And of course the Tories have made theur very special contribution to the money running out by bumping up NI. Unless one is a wealthyt pensioner Tory voter obvs.

    It will be interesting to see reactions to payday next week.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386
    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Johnson's survival depends on how bad the local elections and polls get. If Labour have a 10%+ lead in the polls and local elections NEV and the Tories lose over 500 councillors then he likely loses a VONC if he does not resign.

    However if the Labour lead is only around 5% or so and the local elections are bad but not disastrous then he will likely still survive

    I don't think that is true any longer. After Tuesday and after the backbench and junior minister revolt over yesterday's motion he is finished. No matter what.
    He will face a VONC now no matter what but if the polls and local elections are not too disastrous he will likely narrowly still win it
    Surely a narrow win would pretty much hole him below the water line anyway.

    He couldn't possibly carry on ?
    He'd be happy to carry on on a 52% score.
    What numbers do we need for 51.9%?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Gloomy data: UK retail sales dropped 1.4% in March - more than the 0.3% fall economists expected - as Brits cut back on discretionary spending and non-essential journeys to deal with the cost of living (which is only set to rise...)

    Via @economics 👇🏾

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-22/u-k-retail-sales-fall-more-than-forecast-as-living-costs-bite

    Meanwhile, @GfK says consumer confidence sank for a 5th straight month in April, with Brits more pessimistic about the outlook for their personal finances and the economy than during the financial crisis - it's the level synonymous with recession:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-21/u-k-consumer-confidence-sinks-to-lowest-since-2008-recession https://twitter.com/lizzzburden/status/1517393837353750529/photo/1

    This is what is going to doom the Tories, unless they get a handle on it, the cost of living crisis. A genuine cost of living crisis is going on right now.

    I am not surprised consumer confidence is falling and if gas prices don't fall then the price cap when it is renewed will either go up or stay the same.

    Alot of the stuff that excited the political anoraks failed to resonate with the general public. The proverbial pound in the pocket is going to be one that really hits home.
    Yes. People may even think it's the anorak stuff that is driving them, when were it not for cost of living they might not react to the same issues at all.

    As the circumstance changes, the same events can be seen differently.
    Most people have more sense than to interact with the news in detail.

    But If the money runs out before the month does, everyone notices. Which is why the "not our fault" stuff doesn't work- most people don't get to hear it.
    Even more so now that such a vast proportion of the population have now completely abandoned old-fashioned news outlets. For example, I can’t think of any friends or family under the age of 70 who insist on consuming the main tv news every night.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    Latest Odoxa poll shows a much tighter race than any other pollster.

    Fieldwork 20/21 April

    Macron 53
    Le Pen 47

    No change on their previous poll.

    All polls still have Le Pen over 40% including fully post debate ones.

    In some ways it suits her to have Macron in front, Brexit and Trump were won from being behind in the polls but still in range. If she was ahead or tied with Macron most Melenchon voters for instance would make the effort to hold their nose and vote for Macron, as it is many will stay home if he looks safe.

    The odds favour a solid Macron win but it will still be closer than 2017 and a shock Le Pen narrow win is not impossible on a low turnout
    If Le Pen wins on Sunday, can I be the first to wish you a Merry Christmas, as they will all have come at once for you.

    Scott_xP said:

    Oh dear...

    Boris Johnson yesterday said he wants to secure a free trade deal with India by the Autumn

    Narendra Modi only says he wants to 'make all efforts to conclude the FTA by the end of the year'

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1517406842313654272

    You never actually negotiate anything in real life do you?
    It is a very fair point Scott makes.

    Johnson's go to campaign photo opportunity is to play on JCBs. Always a winner, but not a good look when a Muslim shanty town is being razed to the ground by Modi using JCBs.

    Don't shoot Scott, he's just the messenger.
  • HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Johnson's survival depends on how bad the local elections and polls get. If Labour have a 10%+ lead in the polls and local elections NEV and the Tories lose over 500 councillors then he likely loses a VONC if he does not resign.

    However if the Labour lead is only around 5% or so and the local elections are bad but not disastrous then he will likely still survive

    I don't think that is true any longer. After Tuesday and after the backbench and junior minister revolt over yesterday's motion he is finished. No matter what.
    He will face a VONC now no matter what but if the polls and local elections are not too disastrous he will likely narrowly still win it
    It is over and likely as soon as next month
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Johnson's survival depends on how bad the local elections and polls get. If Labour have a 10%+ lead in the polls and local elections NEV and the Tories lose over 500 councillors then he likely loses a VONC if he does not resign.

    However if the Labour lead is only around 5% or so and the local elections are bad but not disastrous then he will likely still survive

    I don't think that is true any longer. After Tuesday and after the backbench and junior minister revolt over yesterday's motion he is finished. No matter what.
    He will face a VONC now no matter what but if the polls and local elections are not too disastrous he will likely narrowly still win it
    Surely a narrow win would pretty much hole him below the water line anyway.

    He couldn't possibly carry on ?
    He'd be happy to carry on on a 52% score.
    What numbers do we need for 51.9%?
    186 to 173, I think.
  • Johnson will never resign, no matter what this standards committee comes up with.

    Only a VONC will get him out.

    If its clear that they will no confidence him and that he will lose, he will go. His last line of defence collapsed yesterday.
    I'm not convinced.

    The Tories on that committee will slow things down some how or other and before we know it we into late summer and it'll be "too near a GE to have a leadership election" time.
    It depends, who are the 4 Tories? If they're critics or sceptics of Boris then they might be sharpening their knives.

    And I assume to be on such a Committee they presumably can't be a Minister, so aren't on the "Payroll Vote" so won't be loyalists to the PM?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,912

    Johnson will never resign, no matter what this standards committee comes up with.

    Only a VONC will get him out.

    Never say never.

    All leaders eventually depart office, there's no exceptions to that (except possibly Labour's John Smith) and almost all of them via resignation rather than waiting for a VONC to push them out.

    History suggests that when Boris eventually departs, it will be via resigning, one way or another.
    You were his biggest fan. In another guise I remember you saying he was the greatest Prime Minister since Thatcher and would possibly end up the best since the war. Surely a piece of birthday cake shouldn't deny the country the possibility of such talent and leadership?
  • Scott_xP said:

    Hmmm. In joint statements standing together Indian PM Modi says he wants trade deal by end of year but Boris Johnson says he wants it done by Diwali in October.
    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1517409970752753664

    What utter tripe you post at times
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431

    Nigelb said:

    The Russian army has shelled the Memorial to the Victims of Totalitarianism in Kharkiv damaging a part of the memorial tablets...
    The Memorial commemorates 3806 Polish officers and 500 Polish civilians murdered by Soviet secret police in Kharkiv as part of the Katyn massacre in 1940 as well as 2746 Kharkiv residents murdered in 1937-1938

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Hromadske/status/1517376430694445059

    I don’t know the physical nature of the memorial but this story could be either “Russia deliberate targeted memorial” or “Memorial collateral damage in shelling of town”

    It’s very different
    When was it erected?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 40% (-1)
    CON: 34% (-1)
    LDEM: 10% (+1)
    GRN: 5% (-)

    via @techneUK, 20 - 21 Apr
    https://sotn.newstatesman.com/2022/03/what-do-the-latest-polls-say-britain-elects/
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    What utter tripe you post at times

    It's a BoZo press conference...
  • Johnson will never resign, no matter what this standards committee comes up with.

    Only a VONC will get him out.

    If its clear that they will no confidence him and that he will lose, he will go. His last line of defence collapsed yesterday.
    I'm not convinced.

    The Tories on that committee will slow things down some how or other and before we know it we into late summer and it'll be "too near a GE to have a leadership election" time.
    It depends, who are the 4 Tories? If they're critics or sceptics of Boris then they might be sharpening their knives.

    And I assume to be on such a Committee they presumably can't be a Minister, so aren't on the "Payroll Vote" so won't be loyalists to the PM?
    I doubt he will survive long enough for the committee to report
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    Latest Odoxa poll shows a much tighter race than any other pollster.

    Fieldwork 20/21 April

    Macron 53
    Le Pen 47

    No change on their previous poll.

    All polls still have Le Pen over 40% including fully post debate ones.

    In some ways it suits her to have Macron in front, Brexit and Trump were won from being behind in the polls but still in range. If she was ahead or tied with Macron most Melenchon voters for instance would make the effort to hold their nose and vote for Macron, as it is many will stay home if he looks safe.

    The odds favour a solid Macron win but it will still be closer than 2017 and a shock Le Pen narrow win is not impossible on a low turnout
    The weather could play a factor with turnout , it tends to effect certain demographics more than others .

    Currently the weather on Sunday looks showery across France with also some longer periods of rain in places.

    Some models have Paris mostly dry for much of the day which will of course help Macron . The piece of good news from the Odoxa for Macron is the breakdown in former Mélenchons support .

    The previous Odoxa had Macron 31% Le Pen 29%

    The latest poll has Macron 43% Le Pen 24%

    The stable race shown is down to some better figures amongst other candidates transfers for Le Pen .



  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,894
    edited April 2022

    IshmaelZ said:

    Morning all! "He's toast" seems to be the narrative, with even the remaining amoral Tories willing to back lies and criminality now doing so on the back foot. The utter collapse of the "lets front it out" strategy yesterday leaves only defensive plays and there are so few of those left.

    They now face a mullering in the locals. Followed swiftly by the avalanche of PCNs (and worse?) from the Met, followed swiftly by the unredacted Grey report, followed swiftly by the Privilege Committee sitting to look through an absolute mountain of damning evidence.

    He only got to carry on by blustering it out with the party backing him. That ended yesterday.

    So, who replaces him. Sunak has been torpedoed below the water line and supposedly almost quit. Truss is an Instagram Thatcher tribute with nothing to offer. Gove is off his tits. Raab loses his seat at the election and doesn't show any signs of brain activity. Tugenwho?

    I know that high thinking moral giants like HY have insisted the party would only vote for a Brexiteer, but there aren't any. And the party is going to left so reeling by Borisgate over the next few months that electing another high risk wazzock won't look sensible.

    Step forward Jeremy Hunt. Your time has come.

    - “They now face a mullering in the locals.”

    How’s it looking on the ground in your patch? I keep reading how well the SCons are doing (outwith Edinburgh), but reading between the lines of Robert Smithson’s post last night about one naughty PBer using a blacklisted ip address and other Mod-posts, it seems the distributor of this information may not be… ahem… entirely reliable.
    I honestly can't say. The vibe is that there is a lot of infighting, quite often between candidates in the same ward. Many candidates cling to David Duguid MP but I think he's seen as skating on thin ice with anyone connected with farming and fishing and energy.

    The problem is that they are running against the SNP - specifically that SNP priorities are not your priorities. With regards to funding local projects. Its just that they didn't fund the big CCS project up here (and the MP even praised the PM for awarding the money to England) and Brexit has harmed agriculture so I don't get their point.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/04/20/expelled-baronet-sir-jamie-mcgrigor-take-tories-scotland-vote/

    Jamie mcgrigor fiasco.
    Teesside Tories were just as bad. It ended up with the Houchen / Vickers cabal running everything and anyone who wasn't them kicked out. OK so thanks to the Johnson / Corbyn pact they picked up a stack of seats, but they're going to lose most of them next time.

    Enjoy this Jill Mortimer MP vs Jill Mortimer MP Twitter spat. https://twitter.com/JillMortimer4HP/status/1517226120504131590
    Jill Mortimer, whoever is the real one, evidently has not heard of blue ticks. The people of Hartlepool must hope their MP never tries running with scissors. More seriously, why is this not in chapter one of Parliament's IT Guide for Honourable Members?
  • Scott_xP said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 40% (-1)
    CON: 34% (-1)
    LDEM: 10% (+1)
    GRN: 5% (-)

    via @techneUK, 20 - 21 Apr
    https://sotn.newstatesman.com/2022/03/what-do-the-latest-polls-say-britain-elects/

    Surprised both main parties lose a point and conservative still at the 34% mark

    I would have expected a wider gap
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Scott_xP said:

    Not sure how BoZo intends to sell this to the "ship 'em to Rwanda" voters...

    Indian PM Modi says he wants to 'further strengthen' the 'living bridge' between the UK and India.

    Appears to be a call for London to let more Indians migrate to the UK.

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1517407890482819072

    In all fairness to Johnson he did suggest many, many years ago (I believe during the EURef campaign, although that may be wrong) that once the detested by some Leavers, Eastern Europeans had left post Brexit, any employment shortfalls could be made up by "our friends from the Indian subcontinent". Leavers knew this and were clearly comfortable with an influx of Indian workers, as presumably did RedWall Johnsonian voters. And good on 'em!
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Johnson will never resign, no matter what this standards committee comes up with.

    Only a VONC will get him out.

    If its clear that they will no confidence him and that he will lose, he will go. His last line of defence collapsed yesterday.
    I'm not convinced.

    The Tories on that committee will slow things down some how or other and before we know it we into late summer and it'll be "too near a GE to have a leadership election" time.
    It depends, who are the 4 Tories? If they're critics or sceptics of Boris then they might be sharpening their knives.

    And I assume to be on such a Committee they presumably can't be a Minister, so aren't on the "Payroll Vote" so won't be loyalists to the PM?
    Costa Jenkin Carter Farris. Neutral cool no comment cool per @AlastairMeeks in February

    https://alastair-meeks.medium.com/every-conservative-mps-position-on-boris-johnson-and-the-parties-in-number-10-bc4f5f77032f
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,894
    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Gloomy data: UK retail sales dropped 1.4% in March - more than the 0.3% fall economists expected - as Brits cut back on discretionary spending and non-essential journeys to deal with the cost of living (which is only set to rise...)

    Via @economics 👇🏾

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-22/u-k-retail-sales-fall-more-than-forecast-as-living-costs-bite

    Meanwhile, @GfK says consumer confidence sank for a 5th straight month in April, with Brits more pessimistic about the outlook for their personal finances and the economy than during the financial crisis - it's the level synonymous with recession:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-21/u-k-consumer-confidence-sinks-to-lowest-since-2008-recession https://twitter.com/lizzzburden/status/1517393837353750529/photo/1

    This is what is going to doom the Tories, unless they get a handle on it, the cost of living crisis. A genuine cost of living crisis is going on right now.

    I am not surprised consumer confidence is falling and if gas prices don't fall then the price cap when it is renewed will either go up or stay the same.

    Alot of the stuff that excited the political anoraks failed to resonate with the general public. The proverbial pound in the pocket is going to be one that really hits home.
    Yes. People may even think it's the anorak stuff that is driving them, when were it not for cost of living they might not react to the same issues at all.

    As the circumstance changes, the same events can be seen differently.
    Most people have more sense than to interact with the news in detail.

    But If the money runs out before the month does, everyone notices. Which is why the "not our fault" stuff doesn't work- most people don't get to hear it.
    And of course the Tories have made theur very special contribution to the money running out by bumping up NI. Unless one is a wealthyt pensioner Tory voter obvs.

    It will be interesting to see reactions to payday next week.
    Although Rishi has raised the NIC threshold so lower paid workers will see an apparent payrise in a couple of months time.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,255

    Nigelb said:

    The Russian army has shelled the Memorial to the Victims of Totalitarianism in Kharkiv damaging a part of the memorial tablets...
    The Memorial commemorates 3806 Polish officers and 500 Polish civilians murdered by Soviet secret police in Kharkiv as part of the Katyn massacre in 1940 as well as 2746 Kharkiv residents murdered in 1937-1938

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Hromadske/status/1517376430694445059

    I don’t know the physical nature of the memorial but this story could be either “Russia deliberate targeted memorial” or “Memorial collateral damage in shelling of town”

    It’s very different
    When was it erected?
    https://www.google.com/maps/place/Memorial+Zhertv+Totalitaryzmu/@50.0807691,36.2607995,287m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m12!1m6!3m5!1s0x0:0x99dc79c2e5e31e54!2sMemorial+to+the+victims+of+totalitarianism!8m2!3d50.080477!4d36.261663!3m4!1s0x0:0x52e77056b9500688!8m2!3d50.0810745!4d36.2622905

    It is out of town, in a forest - just off a road. Unless there are Ukrainian troops in the forest, dug in, why would you be shelling this area?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    IshmaelZ said:

    Morning all! "He's toast" seems to be the narrative, with even the remaining amoral Tories willing to back lies and criminality now doing so on the back foot. The utter collapse of the "lets front it out" strategy yesterday leaves only defensive plays and there are so few of those left.

    They now face a mullering in the locals. Followed swiftly by the avalanche of PCNs (and worse?) from the Met, followed swiftly by the unredacted Grey report, followed swiftly by the Privilege Committee sitting to look through an absolute mountain of damning evidence.

    He only got to carry on by blustering it out with the party backing him. That ended yesterday.

    So, who replaces him. Sunak has been torpedoed below the water line and supposedly almost quit. Truss is an Instagram Thatcher tribute with nothing to offer. Gove is off his tits. Raab loses his seat at the election and doesn't show any signs of brain activity. Tugenwho?

    I know that high thinking moral giants like HY have insisted the party would only vote for a Brexiteer, but there aren't any. And the party is going to left so reeling by Borisgate over the next few months that electing another high risk wazzock won't look sensible.

    Step forward Jeremy Hunt. Your time has come.

    - “They now face a mullering in the locals.”

    How’s it looking on the ground in your patch? I keep reading how well the SCons are doing (outwith Edinburgh), but reading between the lines of Robert Smithson’s post last night about one naughty PBer using a blacklisted ip address and other Mod-posts, it seems the distributor of this information may not be… ahem… entirely reliable.
    I honestly can't say. The vibe is that there is a lot of infighting, quite often between candidates in the same ward. Many candidates cling to David Duguid MP but I think he's seen as skating on thin ice with anyone connected with farming and fishing and energy.

    The problem is that they are running against the SNP - specifically that SNP priorities are not your priorities. With regards to funding local projects. Its just that they didn't fund the big CCS project up here (and the MP even praised the PM for awarding the money to England) and Brexit has harmed agriculture so I don't get their point.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/04/20/expelled-baronet-sir-jamie-mcgrigor-take-tories-scotland-vote/

    Jamie mcgrigor fiasco.
    Wow! I’d missed that. Thanks.

    A baronet is standing against the Tories in next month's council elections after claiming he has been expelled from the Scottish Conservative Party. Sir James Angus Rhoderick Neil McGrigor, known to everyone as "Jamie", is contesting the Oban South and Isles ward in Argyll and Bute as an independent, a council seat he had held for the Tories since 2017. Prior to that, he had been a Conservative MSP for the Highlands and Islands, serving in Holyrood from 1999 to 2016.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,034
    edited April 2022

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Gloomy data: UK retail sales dropped 1.4% in March - more than the 0.3% fall economists expected - as Brits cut back on discretionary spending and non-essential journeys to deal with the cost of living (which is only set to rise...)

    Via @economics 👇🏾

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-22/u-k-retail-sales-fall-more-than-forecast-as-living-costs-bite

    Meanwhile, @GfK says consumer confidence sank for a 5th straight month in April, with Brits more pessimistic about the outlook for their personal finances and the economy than during the financial crisis - it's the level synonymous with recession:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-21/u-k-consumer-confidence-sinks-to-lowest-since-2008-recession https://twitter.com/lizzzburden/status/1517393837353750529/photo/1

    This is what is going to doom the Tories, unless they get a handle on it, the cost of living crisis. A genuine cost of living crisis is going on right now.

    I am not surprised consumer confidence is falling and if gas prices don't fall then the price cap when it is renewed will either go up or stay the same.

    Alot of the stuff that excited the political anoraks failed to resonate with the general public. The proverbial pound in the pocket is going to be one that really hits home.
    Yes. People may even think it's the anorak stuff that is driving them, when were it not for cost of living they might not react to the same issues at all.

    As the circumstance changes, the same events can be seen differently.
    Most people have more sense than to interact with the news in detail.

    But If the money runs out before the month does, everyone notices. Which is why the "not our fault" stuff doesn't work- most people don't get to hear it.
    And of course the Tories have made theur very special contribution to the money running out by bumping up NI. Unless one is a wealthyt pensioner Tory voter obvs.

    It will be interesting to see reactions to payday next week.
    Although Rishi has raised the NIC threshold so lower paid workers will see an apparent payrise in a couple of months time.
    Those earning upto £34,000 pa I understand will see a fall in their tax from 1st July
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454

    Johnson will never resign, no matter what this standards committee comes up with.

    Only a VONC will get him out.

    If its clear that they will no confidence him and that he will lose, he will go. His last line of defence collapsed yesterday.
    I'm not convinced.

    The Tories on that committee will slow things down some how or other and before we know it we into late summer and it'll be "too near a GE to have a leadership election" time.
    It depends, who are the 4 Tories? If they're critics or sceptics of Boris then they might be sharpening their knives.

    And I assume to be on such a Committee they presumably can't be a Minister, so aren't on the "Payroll Vote" so won't be loyalists to the PM?
    I doubt he will survive long enough for the committee to report
    Andy Carter, Alberto Costa, Laura Farris and Bernard Jenkin.

    I don't believe any of them have commented. Jenkin should be a natural supporter, but wouldn't be surprised if he's someone Boris has lost over the last six months.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Gloomy data: UK retail sales dropped 1.4% in March - more than the 0.3% fall economists expected - as Brits cut back on discretionary spending and non-essential journeys to deal with the cost of living (which is only set to rise...)

    Via @economics 👇🏾

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-22/u-k-retail-sales-fall-more-than-forecast-as-living-costs-bite

    Meanwhile, @GfK says consumer confidence sank for a 5th straight month in April, with Brits more pessimistic about the outlook for their personal finances and the economy than during the financial crisis - it's the level synonymous with recession:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-21/u-k-consumer-confidence-sinks-to-lowest-since-2008-recession https://twitter.com/lizzzburden/status/1517393837353750529/photo/1

    This is what is going to doom the Tories, unless they get a handle on it, the cost of living crisis. A genuine cost of living crisis is going on right now.

    I am not surprised consumer confidence is falling and if gas prices don't fall then the price cap when it is renewed will either go up or stay the same.

    Alot of the stuff that excited the political anoraks failed to resonate with the general public. The proverbial pound in the pocket is going to be one that really hits home.
    Yes. People may even think it's the anorak stuff that is driving them, when were it not for cost of living they might not react to the same issues at all.

    As the circumstance changes, the same events can be seen differently.
    Most people have more sense than to interact with the news in detail.

    But If the money runs out before the month does, everyone notices. Which is why the "not our fault" stuff doesn't work- most people don't get to hear it.
    And of course the Tories have made theur very special contribution to the money running out by bumping up NI. Unless one is a wealthyt pensioner Tory voter obvs.

    It will be interesting to see reactions to payday next week.
    Although Rishi has raised the NIC threshold so lower paid workers will see an apparent payrise in a couple of months time.
    Indeed, anyone earning under £34,000 will see a cut in the NIC they pay. With those earning over £100,000 seeing the biggest rise.

    Plus the state pension is rising below inflation too so pensioners are not immune from rising inflation
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,894
    Scott_xP said:

    What utter tripe you post at times

    It's a BoZo press conference...
    It may be that someone told Boris that Diwali marks the Indian new year, which is only true with half a dozen asterisks and footnotes. Maybe a dozen.
  • Roger said:

    I’ve been out exploring more of Barcelona and looking for coffee under the rising sun. It’s a beautiful city, and far more pleasant to walk around when the streets are practically empty. It’s insanely busy here! I’ve managed to avoid a pickpocketing, possibly by looking very poor - I’ve been brandishing my ancient iPhone 6 (well using it to find where I am) which I think is a reliable, modern and international indicator for not having much dosh!

    At the last coffee place I managed to join in a conversation between the two Catalan ladies working there and, I think, a Scandinavian chap drinking an espresso at the bar (he was speaking Spanish with an accent). They seemed to be discussing the similarities between Catalan and French - one lady was saying café con leche and café au lait, then gracias and merci, both of which French terms I’ve heard in Catalan. I piped up with “Si us plau and s’il vous plait”. Both ladies immediately pointed at me nodding and spoke very quickly to me in Catalan.

    I had to then reveal my Eng-norance, but managed to explain in my shaky French that I’d noticed many similarities between French and Catalan. I added for my final flourish that I believe French had taken the words from Catalan (a ‘fact’ given to me by my translator friend I spent the afternoon drinking with at the bus station the other day). This won a “Brava!” From a very old Catalan gent sitting in the café, who then seemed to go into an old man rant at nobody in particular.

    I brought my coffee out here to just watch people go by for a bit..

    Les Ramblas...don't you just long to be back in the EU? Those multi lingual conversations was one of the things I loved...
    But Roger, they’re still happening now! And nobody mentioned Brexit (unless that was what the old dude was ranting about)

    And I could be having as many monolingual conversations as I like here, with the massive number of Americans I’ve heard. On almost every street I’ve walked down I’ve noticed their (usually loudly voiced) accents.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    edited April 2022

    Scott_xP said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 40% (-1)
    CON: 34% (-1)
    LDEM: 10% (+1)
    GRN: 5% (-)

    via @techneUK, 20 - 21 Apr
    https://sotn.newstatesman.com/2022/03/what-do-the-latest-polls-say-britain-elects/

    Surprised both main parties lose a point and conservative still at the 34% mark

    I would have expected a wider gap
    If the Tories stay at 34%+ then Boris likely survives
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    edited April 2022
    Tory MPs could not take the skin off a rice pudding.

    The latest way they will try to rationalise it is by saying that he did not deliberately mislead Parliament. He did it by accident or did not mean to or some such nonsense.

    Apart from a few brave souls they are being pathetic, as pathetic as Labour MPs were with Corbyn. Have they learnt nothing from that? Apparently not.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    Leavers knew this and were clearly comfortable with an influx of Indian workers, as presumably did RedWall Johnsonian voters. And good on 'em!

    "Replace your Polish neighbours with Indians" is not what was on the side of the bus, or that NHS ad, or Fucking Farage's poster.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    On why Boris Johnson was well placed to exploit the realignment of British politics, how he’s damaged his popularity with his natural supporters & how he’ll try to win it back. My latest piece for @NewStatesman. https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/04/boris-johnson-boasts-that-only-he-can-win-the-red-wall-but-hes-losing-it
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,249
    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Russian army has shelled the Memorial to the Victims of Totalitarianism in Kharkiv damaging a part of the memorial tablets...
    The Memorial commemorates 3806 Polish officers and 500 Polish civilians murdered by Soviet secret police in Kharkiv as part of the Katyn massacre in 1940 as well as 2746 Kharkiv residents murdered in 1937-1938

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Hromadske/status/1517376430694445059

    I don’t know the physical nature of the memorial but this story could be either “Russia deliberate targeted memorial” or “Memorial collateral damage in shelling of town”

    It’s very different
    No difference , they are still barstewards of the first order, just repeating what they have done many times before.
    Absolutely not denying the culpability of Russia in this whole mess
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,971
    edited April 2022
    Roger said:

    Johnson will never resign, no matter what this standards committee comes up with.

    Only a VONC will get him out.

    Never say never.

    All leaders eventually depart office, there's no exceptions to that (except possibly Labour's John Smith) and almost all of them via resignation rather than waiting for a VONC to push them out.

    History suggests that when Boris eventually departs, it will be via resigning, one way or another.
    You were his biggest fan. In another guise I remember you saying he was the greatest Prime Minister since Thatcher and would possibly end up the best since the war. Surely a piece of birthday cake shouldn't deny the country the possibility of such talent and leadership?
    "Were" is the operative word. Though I'll correct you, I never said that he could possibly end up the best since the war, there was never a chance he could be better than Thacher.

    All leaders have a best-before date and some may come sooner than later. Thatcher was herself the greatest Prime Minister since Churchill but that didn't mean that it was wrong to ultimately oust her.

    The fact that Thatcher had to leave office doesn't diminish her achievements. She was still a great PM, but ultimately she had to go. The same goes for Boris, he's been a great PM but been is past-tense, it is well past the point for him to go now.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652
    Scott_xP said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 40% (-1)
    CON: 34% (-1)
    LDEM: 10% (+1)
    GRN: 5% (-)

    via @techneUK, 20 - 21 Apr
    https://sotn.newstatesman.com/2022/03/what-do-the-latest-polls-say-britain-elects/

    Also a new YouGov

    Labour 39
    Tory 33
    LibDem 9
    Green 8

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    Cyclefree said:

    Tory MPs could not take the skin off a rice pudding.

    The latest way they will try to rationalise it is by saying that he did not deliberatelymislead Parliament. He did it by accident or did not mean to or some such nonsense.

    Apart from a few brave souls they are being pathetic, as pathetic as Labour MPs were with Corbyn. Have they learnt nothing from that? Apparently not.

    Labour MPs did not remove Blair after he misled Parliament over WMD as the reason to take us to war in Iraq
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    The ‘No to Nato’ campaign is showing signs of life in Sweden. At least we’re now going to have a proper debate. Sweden’s ‘alliansfriheten’ seems to have much deeper ideological roots than Finland’s.

    Presumably because the Swedes haven't faced anyone in open war for hundreds of years, while for Finns the Russian threat is one that is rooted in living memory.

    Chicken n Egg conundrum. Is Sweden peaceful because we are free, or are we free because we are peaceful?

    What on earth makes you think Swedes aren’t very well aware of Russian threats, both historic and contemporary? Swedish media has reported and commented such threats since time immemorial. Swedes are not unaffected by the experiences of our Nordic brothers in Finland, Norway, Iceland and Denmark, nor the rest of humanity.

    I was not seeking to knock the Swedes. Giving up a position of neutrality after generations observing it is a very, very big deal. I can understand entirely why it is such a tough call that will involve a lot of soul searching - despite the self-evident threats the country faces. My point was that Finnish history is very different, as is Finland's experience of Russia and, before and after that, the Soviet Union. Sweden's place in the Nordic family is also very interesting, IMO. In my experience, it is the one that the others define themselves against.

    An insightful post.

    Yes, Sweden is sometimes seen as the benchmark, the lodestar. Not just because we are twice the size of our immediate neighbours, and our central location, but for a complex range of other reasons.

    This is a grossly flawed analogy, but one could propose:

    Nordic cf Atlantic countries

    Sweden = England
    Finland = Wales
    Norway = Scotland
    Denmark = Ireland
    Iceland = Mann
    Oi! What about the Faroes?!

    Lundy?
    Not only grossly flawed, but incomplete. 😉
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747
    Rory Stewart really did shit the bed. Self destructing his career just as it was getting going, over a point of principle that was really irrelevant in the grand course.

    The other what-if is Osborne. He might have stayed quietly on the backbenchers biding his time. A few sensible comments through the pandemic, don’t get drawn into the Brexit wars. He’d now be the slam dunk choice.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,218

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Gloomy data: UK retail sales dropped 1.4% in March - more than the 0.3% fall economists expected - as Brits cut back on discretionary spending and non-essential journeys to deal with the cost of living (which is only set to rise...)

    Via @economics 👇🏾

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-22/u-k-retail-sales-fall-more-than-forecast-as-living-costs-bite

    Meanwhile, @GfK says consumer confidence sank for a 5th straight month in April, with Brits more pessimistic about the outlook for their personal finances and the economy than during the financial crisis - it's the level synonymous with recession:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-21/u-k-consumer-confidence-sinks-to-lowest-since-2008-recession https://twitter.com/lizzzburden/status/1517393837353750529/photo/1

    This is what is going to doom the Tories, unless they get a handle on it, the cost of living crisis. A genuine cost of living crisis is going on right now.

    I am not surprised consumer confidence is falling and if gas prices don't fall then the price cap when it is renewed will either go up or stay the same.

    Alot of the stuff that excited the political anoraks failed to resonate with the general public. The proverbial pound in the pocket is going to be one that really hits home.
    Yes. People may even think it's the anorak stuff that is driving them, when were it not for cost of living they might not react to the same issues at all.

    As the circumstance changes, the same events can be seen differently.
    Most people have more sense than to interact with the news in detail.

    But If the money runs out before the month does, everyone notices. Which is why the "not our fault" stuff doesn't work- most people don't get to hear it.
    And of course the Tories have made theur very special contribution to the money running out by bumping up NI. Unless one is a wealthyt pensioner Tory voter obvs.

    It will be interesting to see reactions to payday next week.
    Although Rishi has raised the NIC threshold so lower paid workers will see an apparent payrise in a couple of months time.
    But too late for May's elections.

    And a rounding error compared with all the other stuff going on.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Johnson will never resign, no matter what this standards committee comes up with.

    Only a VONC will get him out.

    If its clear that they will no confidence him and that he will lose, he will go. His last line of defence collapsed yesterday.
    I'm not convinced.

    The Tories on that committee will slow things down some how or other and before we know it we into late summer and it'll be "too near a GE to have a leadership election" time.
    It depends, who are the 4 Tories? If they're critics or sceptics of Boris then they might be sharpening their knives.

    And I assume to be on such a Committee they presumably can't be a Minister, so aren't on the "Payroll Vote" so won't be loyalists to the PM?
    Costa Jenkin Carter Farris. Neutral cool no comment cool per @AlastairMeeks in February

    https://alastair-meeks.medium.com/every-conservative-mps-position-on-boris-johnson-and-the-parties-in-number-10-bc4f5f77032f
    Thanks. So 2 cools and 2 neutrals doesn't look fertile ground there for Boris.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Morning all! "He's toast" seems to be the narrative, with even the remaining amoral Tories willing to back lies and criminality now doing so on the back foot. The utter collapse of the "lets front it out" strategy yesterday leaves only defensive plays and there are so few of those left.

    They now face a mullering in the locals. Followed swiftly by the avalanche of PCNs (and worse?) from the Met, followed swiftly by the unredacted Grey report, followed swiftly by the Privilege Committee sitting to look through an absolute mountain of damning evidence.

    He only got to carry on by blustering it out with the party backing him. That ended yesterday.

    So, who replaces him. Sunak has been torpedoed below the water line and supposedly almost quit. Truss is an Instagram Thatcher tribute with nothing to offer. Gove is off his tits. Raab loses his seat at the election and doesn't show any signs of brain activity. Tugenwho?

    I know that high thinking moral giants like HY have insisted the party would only vote for a Brexiteer, but there aren't any. And the party is going to left so reeling by Borisgate over the next few months that electing another high risk wazzock won't look sensible.

    Step forward Jeremy Hunt. Your time has come.

    How on earth does Jeremy Hunt get past the UKIP membership the Tories now have?

    Simple - Remain is no longer an option.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    IshmaelZ said:

    Morning all! "He's toast" seems to be the narrative, with even the remaining amoral Tories willing to back lies and criminality now doing so on the back foot. The utter collapse of the "lets front it out" strategy yesterday leaves only defensive plays and there are so few of those left.

    They now face a mullering in the locals. Followed swiftly by the avalanche of PCNs (and worse?) from the Met, followed swiftly by the unredacted Grey report, followed swiftly by the Privilege Committee sitting to look through an absolute mountain of damning evidence.

    He only got to carry on by blustering it out with the party backing him. That ended yesterday.

    So, who replaces him. Sunak has been torpedoed below the water line and supposedly almost quit. Truss is an Instagram Thatcher tribute with nothing to offer. Gove is off his tits. Raab loses his seat at the election and doesn't show any signs of brain activity. Tugenwho?

    I know that high thinking moral giants like HY have insisted the party would only vote for a Brexiteer, but there aren't any. And the party is going to left so reeling by Borisgate over the next few months that electing another high risk wazzock won't look sensible.

    Step forward Jeremy Hunt. Your time has come.

    - “They now face a mullering in the locals.”

    How’s it looking on the ground in your patch? I keep reading how well the SCons are doing (outwith Edinburgh), but reading between the lines of Robert Smithson’s post last night about one naughty PBer using a blacklisted ip address and other Mod-posts, it seems the distributor of this information may not be… ahem… entirely reliable.
    I honestly can't say. The vibe is that there is a lot of infighting, quite often between candidates in the same ward. Many candidates cling to David Duguid MP but I think he's seen as skating on thin ice with anyone connected with farming and fishing and energy.

    The problem is that they are running against the SNP - specifically that SNP priorities are not your priorities. With regards to funding local projects. Its just that they didn't fund the big CCS project up here (and the MP even praised the PM for awarding the money to England) and Brexit has harmed agriculture so I don't get their point.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/04/20/expelled-baronet-sir-jamie-mcgrigor-take-tories-scotland-vote/

    Jamie mcgrigor fiasco.
    Teesside Tories were just as bad. It ended up with the Houchen / Vickers cabal running everything and anyone who wasn't them kicked out. OK so thanks to the Johnson / Corbyn pact they picked up a stack of seats, but they're going to lose most of them next time.

    Enjoy this Jill Mortimer MP vs Jill Mortimer MP Twitter spat. https://twitter.com/JillMortimer4HP/status/1517226120504131590
    London Tory candidates stand as ‘Local Conservatives’ in election in bid to deflect partygate

    More than 400 London Tories will stand as “Local Conservatives” in the upcoming elections in what has been branded an attempt to distance themselves from the woes of the national party.

    Dozens of prospective candidates in Birmingham will also be listed under the label on the ballot paper on May 5 for the first time.

    Evening Standard
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    Johnson will never resign, no matter what this standards committee comes up with.

    Only a VONC will get him out.

    If its clear that they will no confidence him and that he will lose, he will go. His last line of defence collapsed yesterday.
    I'm not convinced.

    The Tories on that committee will slow things down some how or other and before we know it we into late summer and it'll be "too near a GE to have a leadership election" time.
    It depends, who are the 4 Tories? If they're critics or sceptics of Boris then they might be sharpening their knives.

    And I assume to be on such a Committee they presumably can't be a Minister, so aren't on the "Payroll Vote" so won't be loyalists to the PM?
    I doubt he will survive long enough for the committee to report
    Andy Carter, Alberto Costa, Laura Farris and Bernard Jenkin.

    I don't believe any of them have commented. Jenkin should be a natural supporter, but wouldn't be surprised if he's someone Boris has lost over the last six months.
    I read somewhere that there's nothing to stop the parties swapping out the members & that Labour might put some heavyweights on it. I can't find the link now.

    I'm not sure quite what gives HYUFD the authority to proclaim a voting percentage which leads Johnson to survive. It seems to me arbitrary and lacking any factual basis. Which I guess is fine as long as it's recognised to be little more than declaring the winning lotto numbers ahead of the draw.

    There are a number of significant reasons why Johnson may not now survive the year.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 40% (-1)
    CON: 34% (-1)
    LDEM: 10% (+1)
    GRN: 5% (-)

    via @techneUK, 20 - 21 Apr
    https://sotn.newstatesman.com/2022/03/what-do-the-latest-polls-say-britain-elects/

    Surprised both main parties lose a point and conservative still at the 34% mark

    I would have expected a wider gap
    If the Tories stay at 34%+ then Boris likely survives
    Nope. Sea change this week. All over.
This discussion has been closed.