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Will Macron prove to be quasi effective against Le Pen today? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,161
edited April 2022 in General
Will Macron prove to be quasi effective against Le Pen today? – politicalbetting.com

France, presidential election today:Turnout at 12:00 CEST…2007: 31.2%2012: 28.3%2017: 28.5%2022: 25.5% (-3) Source: Ministry of the InteriorMore: https://t.co/oL97q6lO3I pic.twitter.com/wCn9HLAfI3

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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Turnout has surged in rural and southern areas of France to 40% by 12pm.

    However it had collapsed to only 15% in Paris by lunchtime

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1513102761021349892?s=20&t=YOSSHY7RpF1dyOPL-fO2uQ
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    FPT:
    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    Read this interview with Karaganov (reliable bellwether of 🇷🇺ruling elite majority consensus).

    If afterwards you still harbor any illusions about sustainable negotiated settlement with Putin's Kremlin on European security order read it again. And again.


    https://twitter.com/thorstenbenner/status/1513039187527806977

    As he says, war with West looks more inevitable as each day goes by.

    Hope to God he is wrong.
    Indeed. Anyone with eyes and honest evidence knows that war with the West is not just unwinnable for Russia, but could only end in rout for them, unless:

    1. The Putinists are very confident that they can mobilize 5th columns to great effect, or they can bring in China on their side (no other ally would make a significant difference), OR
    2. It goes nuclear.
    Given the shocking state of most Russian military kit, how likely are the Russians not to have skimped on nuclear weapon maintenance?
    I think you made a similar point before and it's a very fair one but not desperately comforting.

    Say 90% of their warheads don't work - that still leaves a totally trashed world in the event of them being fired. Especially since the Western retaliation would presumably have to be based on assumption Russian nukes work.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,890

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    Read this interview with Karaganov (reliable bellwether of 🇷🇺ruling elite majority consensus).

    If afterwards you still harbor any illusions about sustainable negotiated settlement with Putin's Kremlin on European security order read it again. And again.


    https://twitter.com/thorstenbenner/status/1513039187527806977

    As he says, war with West looks more inevitable as each day goes by.

    Hope to God he is wrong.
    Indeed. Anyone with eyes and honest evidence knows that war with the West is not just unwinnable for Russia, but could only end in rout for them, unless:

    1. The Putinists are very confident that they can mobilize 5th columns to great effect, or they can bring in China on their side (no other ally would make a significant difference), OR
    2. It goes nuclear.
    Given the shocking state of most Russian military kit, how likely are the Russians not to have skimped on nuclear weapon maintenance?
    I think you made a similar point before and it's a very fair one but not desperately comforting.

    Say 90% of their warheads don't work - that still leaves a totally trashed world in the event of them being fired. Especially since the Western retaliation would presumably have to be based on assumption Russian nukes work.
    And the Chinese retaliation if they cannot accurately tell where incoming missiles are aimed.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    HYUFD said:

    Turnout has surged in rural and southern areas of France to 40% by 12pm.

    However it had collapsed to only 15% in Paris by lunchtime

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1513102761021349892?s=20&t=YOSSHY7RpF1dyOPL-fO2uQ

    Approx = 15% in NYC and LA vs 40% in Alabama.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    Read this interview with Karaganov (reliable bellwether of 🇷🇺ruling elite majority consensus).

    If afterwards you still harbor any illusions about sustainable negotiated settlement with Putin's Kremlin on European security order read it again. And again.


    https://twitter.com/thorstenbenner/status/1513039187527806977

    As he says, war with West looks more inevitable as each day goes by.

    Hope to God he is wrong.
    Indeed. Anyone with eyes and honest evidence knows that war with the West is not just unwinnable for Russia, but could only end in rout for them, unless:

    1. The Putinists are very confident that they can mobilize 5th columns to great effect, or they can bring in China on their side (no other ally would make a significant difference), OR
    2. It goes nuclear.
    Given the shocking state of most Russian military kit, how likely are the Russians not to have skimped on nuclear weapon maintenance?
    I think you made a similar point before and it's a very fair one but not desperately comforting.

    Say 90% of their warheads don't work - that still leaves a totally trashed world in the event of them being fired. Especially since the Western retaliation would presumably have to be based on assumption Russian nukes work.
    Sometimes you just have to go nuclear and hope.

    On the positive side, the UK's unlikely to see London be quite as important going forward.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited April 2022
    Areas of 1st round support in 2017. I don't know french geography and population distribution, any particular reason the south coast is better Le Pen territory than the west coast?

    I'd forgotten how close she was to not making the second round. And my word the socialists have had a bad time of it since Hollande.


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    Read this interview with Karaganov (reliable bellwether of 🇷🇺ruling elite majority consensus).

    If afterwards you still harbor any illusions about sustainable negotiated settlement with Putin's Kremlin on European security order read it again. And again.


    https://twitter.com/thorstenbenner/status/1513039187527806977

    As he says, war with West looks more inevitable as each day goes by.

    Hope to God he is wrong.
    Indeed. Anyone with eyes and honest evidence knows that war with the West is not just unwinnable for Russia, but could only end in rout for them, unless:

    1. The Putinists are very confident that they can mobilize 5th columns to great effect, or they can bring in China on their side (no other ally would make a significant difference), OR
    2. It goes nuclear.
    Given the shocking state of most Russian military kit, how likely are the Russians not to have skimped on nuclear weapon maintenance?
    I think you made a similar point before and it's a very fair one but not desperately comforting.

    Say 90% of their warheads don't work - that still leaves a totally trashed world in the event of them being fired. Especially since the Western retaliation would presumably have to be based on assumption Russian nukes work.
    And the Chinese retaliation if they cannot accurately tell where incoming missiles are aimed.
    Unless Putin fires a nuclear missile at a NATO nation there will be no NATO nuclear weapons fired at Russia and even then only a NATO nuclear response is guaranteed if France, the USA or UK are hit.

    China is on the other side of the world, even if closer to Russia now.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    kle4 said:

    Areas of 1st round support in 2017. I don't know french geography and population distribution, any particular reason the south coast is better Le Pen territory than the west coast?


    East coast of France o_O ?!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited April 2022
    Pulpstar said:

    kle4 said:

    Areas of 1st round support in 2017. I don't know french geography and population distribution, any particular reason the south coast is better Le Pen territory than the west coast?


    East coast of France o_O ?!
    I made the correction very quickly, but not quickly enough it seems!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    HYUFD said:

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    Read this interview with Karaganov (reliable bellwether of 🇷🇺ruling elite majority consensus).

    If afterwards you still harbor any illusions about sustainable negotiated settlement with Putin's Kremlin on European security order read it again. And again.


    https://twitter.com/thorstenbenner/status/1513039187527806977

    As he says, war with West looks more inevitable as each day goes by.

    Hope to God he is wrong.
    Indeed. Anyone with eyes and honest evidence knows that war with the West is not just unwinnable for Russia, but could only end in rout for them, unless:

    1. The Putinists are very confident that they can mobilize 5th columns to great effect, or they can bring in China on their side (no other ally would make a significant difference), OR
    2. It goes nuclear.
    Given the shocking state of most Russian military kit, how likely are the Russians not to have skimped on nuclear weapon maintenance?
    I think you made a similar point before and it's a very fair one but not desperately comforting.

    Say 90% of their warheads don't work - that still leaves a totally trashed world in the event of them being fired. Especially since the Western retaliation would presumably have to be based on assumption Russian nukes work.
    And the Chinese retaliation if they cannot accurately tell where incoming missiles are aimed.
    Unless Putin fires a nuclear missile at a NATO nation there will be no NATO nuclear weapons fired at Russia and even then only a NATO nuclear response is guaranteed if France, the USA or UK are hit.

    China is on the other side of the world, even if closer to Russia now.
    Not sure about that, a nuclear strike on Kyiv would probably result in WW3.
  • kle4 said:

    Areas of 1st round support in 2017. I don't know french geography and population distribution, any particular reason the south coast is better Le Pen territory than the west coast?

    I'd forgotten how close she was to not making the second round. And my word the socialists have had a bad time of it since Hollande.


    Vichy France loves the fascists.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    On the visit by the PM to Kyiv and the support for Ukraine, it seems to me that the problem for some people is that the narrative was wrong.

    France and Germany should have been right and the UK Government should have been wrong.

    In the event, the UK government policy has proven to be right and the original policies of France and Germany to be wrong.

    To repeat a favourite quote - when Foch was asked if he was responsible for the Victory on the Marne, in WWI, he paused and replied that he was quite certain that he would have been blamed for the defeat.

    Delusion, people know that UK was the laundry for Russia and its crooks, doubtful if France and Germany got anywhere near them for sucking up Russian cash. At least France and Germany were paying for goods not taking backhanders.
    Paying for goods to the current Russian government is *giving* backhanders.

    That's how Putinism works - the Thieves By Statute get to steal 10-20% off the top of every deal. Putin gets a cut.

    In addition, a number of European politicians were quite openly receiving "consultancy" jobs etc from Russia state enterprising. Schroeder was simply the most shameless.

    The Nord Stream 2 project was all about being able to sell gas to Western Europe, while being able to cut off Eastern Europe at whim. It was quite explicitly selling Eastern Europe (including Ukraine) to Russia.
    You got 4 likes, but your post isn't entirely accurate: Germany gets essentially no gas from the old trans Ukraine pipeline. That pipeline is almost entirely supplying Eastern Europe and (the biggest purchaser by far) Italy.
    Yes - but the purpose of Nord Stream 2 was that Germany would be a big gas hub, and that the supplies to Eastern Europe through the older pipelines could be turned on and off at the Kremlins desire, without effecting Western Europe directly.

    The strategic design was blatant - as someone on PB observed, each section of NS2 pipeline should have been stamped "Fuck Ukraine!"
    The plan with Nord Stream 1 was to achieve that, but then North African gas supplies fell sharply, and the Ukrainian pipeline ended up fully used again, albeit not by the people who had previously used it.

    Pretty much all of Nord Stream 2's capacity was bought up by German utilities, seeking cheap gas for ccgts.

    The Russians had previously floated a Mediterranean gas pipeline, through turkey to Italy to totally remove Ukrainian transmitted gas.

    Why hasn't there been more production from Leviathan?
    Because there's limited (i.e. basically none) export capability from Israel currently, and Israeli natural gas demand simply isn't that high.

    Last I heard, they were planning on building a pipeline to the Egyptian LNG facilities, which is not a stupid idea, as decline rates on the Egyptian fields have been somewhat worse than expected.

    On the other hand, that is putting an awful lot of power over Israeli exports in the hands of a long time enemy.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Would not be surprised to see Le Pen win today.
    Be very surprised to see a repeat in two weeks.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited April 2022
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    Read this interview with Karaganov (reliable bellwether of 🇷🇺ruling elite majority consensus).

    If afterwards you still harbor any illusions about sustainable negotiated settlement with Putin's Kremlin on European security order read it again. And again.


    https://twitter.com/thorstenbenner/status/1513039187527806977

    As he says, war with West looks more inevitable as each day goes by.

    Hope to God he is wrong.
    Indeed. Anyone with eyes and honest evidence knows that war with the West is not just unwinnable for Russia, but could only end in rout for them, unless:

    1. The Putinists are very confident that they can mobilize 5th columns to great effect, or they can bring in China on their side (no other ally would make a significant difference), OR
    2. It goes nuclear.
    Given the shocking state of most Russian military kit, how likely are the Russians not to have skimped on nuclear weapon maintenance?
    I think you made a similar point before and it's a very fair one but not desperately comforting.

    Say 90% of their warheads don't work - that still leaves a totally trashed world in the event of them being fired. Especially since the Western retaliation would presumably have to be based on assumption Russian nukes work.
    And the Chinese retaliation if they cannot accurately tell where incoming missiles are aimed.
    Unless Putin fires a nuclear missile at a NATO nation there will be no NATO nuclear weapons fired at Russia and even then only a NATO nuclear response is guaranteed if France, the USA or UK are hit.

    China is on the other side of the world, even if closer to Russia now.
    Not sure about that, a nuclear strike on Kyiv would probably result in WW3.
    Maybe it might result in NATO airstrikes on a Russian base, it would not see the launch of NATO nuclear weapons however
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    Read this interview with Karaganov (reliable bellwether of 🇷🇺ruling elite majority consensus).

    If afterwards you still harbor any illusions about sustainable negotiated settlement with Putin's Kremlin on European security order read it again. And again.


    https://twitter.com/thorstenbenner/status/1513039187527806977

    As he says, war with West looks more inevitable as each day goes by.

    Hope to God he is wrong.
    Indeed. Anyone with eyes and honest evidence knows that war with the West is not just unwinnable for Russia, but could only end in rout for them, unless:

    1. The Putinists are very confident that they can mobilize 5th columns to great effect, or they can bring in China on their side (no other ally would make a significant difference), OR
    2. It goes nuclear.
    Given the shocking state of most Russian military kit, how likely are the Russians not to have skimped on nuclear weapon maintenance?
    I think you made a similar point before and it's a very fair one but not desperately comforting.

    Say 90% of their warheads don't work - that still leaves a totally trashed world in the event of them being fired. Especially since the Western retaliation would presumably have to be based on assumption Russian nukes work.
    And the Chinese retaliation if they cannot accurately tell where incoming missiles are aimed.
    Unless Putin fires a nuclear missile at a NATO nation there will be no NATO nuclear weapons fired at Russia and even then only a NATO nuclear response is guaranteed if France, the USA or UK are hit.

    China is on the other side of the world, even if closer to Russia now.
    Not sure about that, a nuclear strike on Kyiv would probably result in WW3.
    ...depending on which G7 leader is in Kyiv at the time.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,348
    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Turnout has surged in rural and southern areas of France to 40% by 12pm.

    However it had collapsed to only 15% in Paris by lunchtime

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1513102761021349892?s=20&t=YOSSHY7RpF1dyOPL-fO2uQ

    Approx = 15% in NYC and LA vs 40% in Alabama.

    A lot of rural France is quite left wing.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited April 2022
    Sean_F said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Turnout has surged in rural and southern areas of France to 40% by 12pm.

    However it had collapsed to only 15% in Paris by lunchtime

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1513102761021349892?s=20&t=YOSSHY7RpF1dyOPL-fO2uQ

    Approx = 15% in NYC and LA vs 40% in Alabama.

    A lot of rural France is quite left wing.
    Blimey, they really are different to us, aren't they? Young people supporting the populist right, rural areas being left wing, up is down.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Sean_F said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Turnout has surged in rural and southern areas of France to 40% by 12pm.

    However it had collapsed to only 15% in Paris by lunchtime

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1513102761021349892?s=20&t=YOSSHY7RpF1dyOPL-fO2uQ

    Approx = 15% in NYC and LA vs 40% in Alabama.

    A lot of rural France is quite left wing.
    This is an important point.
    There are many villages with strong Communist traditions until relatively recently. Moreover, Le Pen vote skews much younger than would be imagined by many.
    Rural France skews older.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    Read this interview with Karaganov (reliable bellwether of 🇷🇺ruling elite majority consensus).

    If afterwards you still harbor any illusions about sustainable negotiated settlement with Putin's Kremlin on European security order read it again. And again.


    https://twitter.com/thorstenbenner/status/1513039187527806977

    As he says, war with West looks more inevitable as each day goes by.

    Hope to God he is wrong.
    Indeed. Anyone with eyes and honest evidence knows that war with the West is not just unwinnable for Russia, but could only end in rout for them, unless:

    1. The Putinists are very confident that they can mobilize 5th columns to great effect, or they can bring in China on their side (no other ally would make a significant difference), OR
    2. It goes nuclear.
    Given the shocking state of most Russian military kit, how likely are the Russians not to have skimped on nuclear weapon maintenance?
    I think you made a similar point before and it's a very fair one but not desperately comforting.

    Say 90% of their warheads don't work - that still leaves a totally trashed world in the event of them being fired. Especially since the Western retaliation would presumably have to be based on assumption Russian nukes work.
    Sometimes you just have to go nuclear and hope.

    On the positive side, the UK's unlikely to see London be quite as important going forward.
    Parts of it will be fine. Several boroughs are nuclear free zones.
    But they are not the bits we want to keep.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    kle4 said:

    Areas of 1st round support in 2017. I don't know french geography and population distribution, any particular reason the south coast is better Le Pen territory than the west coast?

    I'd forgotten how close she was to not making the second round. And my word the socialists have had a bad time of it since Hollande.


    Understanding France's Population 101

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empty_diagonal
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Areas of 1st round support in 2017. I don't know french geography and population distribution, any particular reason the south coast is better Le Pen territory than the west coast?

    I'd forgotten how close she was to not making the second round. And my word the socialists have had a bad time of it since Hollande.


    Vichy France loves the fascists.
    It looks to me more like Plantagenet France favours Macron, and Capet/Valois France favours Le Pen.
    Time to resurrect the empire?

    image
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    dixiedean said:

    Would not be surprised to see Le Pen win today.
    Be very surprised to see a repeat in two weeks.

    Why? Since 2014 Macron has been the rich elite with a manifesto for the rich elite that does nothing for the poor, the overtaxed workers throughout the country. And he has done zilch to dispel this portrait, or to tack towards the EU scepticism strong in every stratification of the French Nation.

    It will be a shock if he manages to hold on and defy political logic about how to follow up your first win.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    On the visit by the PM to Kyiv and the support for Ukraine, it seems to me that the problem for some people is that the narrative was wrong.

    France and Germany should have been right and the UK Government should have been wrong.

    In the event, the UK government policy has proven to be right and the original policies of France and Germany to be wrong.

    To repeat a favourite quote - when Foch was asked if he was responsible for the Victory on the Marne, in WWI, he paused and replied that he was quite certain that he would have been blamed for the defeat.

    Delusion, people know that UK was the laundry for Russia and its crooks, doubtful if France and Germany got anywhere near them for sucking up Russian cash. At least France and Germany were paying for goods not taking backhanders.
    Paying for goods to the current Russian government is *giving* backhanders.

    That's how Putinism works - the Thieves By Statute get to steal 10-20% off the top of every deal. Putin gets a cut.

    In addition, a number of European politicians were quite openly receiving "consultancy" jobs etc from Russia state enterprising. Schroeder was simply the most shameless.

    The Nord Stream 2 project was all about being able to sell gas to Western Europe, while being able to cut off Eastern Europe at whim. It was quite explicitly selling Eastern Europe (including Ukraine) to Russia.
    You got 4 likes, but your post isn't entirely accurate: Germany gets essentially no gas from the old trans Ukraine pipeline. That pipeline is almost entirely supplying Eastern Europe and (the biggest purchaser by far) Italy.
    Yes - but the purpose of Nord Stream 2 was that Germany would be a big gas hub, and that the supplies to Eastern Europe through the older pipelines could be turned on and off at the Kremlins desire, without effecting Western Europe directly.

    The strategic design was blatant - as someone on PB observed, each section of NS2 pipeline should have been stamped "Fuck Ukraine!"
    The plan with Nord Stream 1 was to achieve that, but then North African gas supplies fell sharply, and the Ukrainian pipeline ended up fully used again, albeit not by the people who had previously used it.

    Pretty much all of Nord Stream 2's capacity was bought up by German utilities, seeking cheap gas for ccgts.

    The Russians had previously floated a Mediterranean gas pipeline, through turkey to Italy to totally remove Ukrainian transmitted gas.

    Why hasn't there been more production from Leviathan?
    Because there's limited (i.e. basically none) export capability from Israel currently, and Israeli natural gas demand simply isn't that high.

    Last I heard, they were planning on building a pipeline to the Egyptian LNG facilities, which is not a stupid idea, as decline rates on the Egyptian fields have been somewhat worse than expected.

    On the other hand, that is putting an awful lot of power over Israeli exports in the hands of a long time enemy.
    Can't they build a pipeline?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    dixiedean said:

    Would not be surprised to see Le Pen win today.
    Be very surprised to see a repeat in two weeks.

    Why? Since 2014 Macron has been the rich elite with a manifesto for the rich elite that does nothing for the poor, the overtaxed workers throughout the country. And he has done zilch to dispel this portrait, or to tack towards the EU scepticism strong in every stratification of the French Nation.

    It will be a shock if he manages to hold on and defy political logic about how to follow up your first win.
    Polls gave very little indication he would be in trouble, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to consider it a shock if he lost the first round (which is easier), let alone the second.

    Been since the mid 90s since the winner of the first did not win the second it appears.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    edited April 2022

    dixiedean said:

    Would not be surprised to see Le Pen win today.
    Be very surprised to see a repeat in two weeks.

    Why? Since 2014 Macron has been the rich elite with a manifesto for the rich elite that does nothing for the poor, the overtaxed workers throughout the country. And he has done zilch to dispel this portrait, or to tack towards the EU scepticism strong in every stratification of the French Nation.

    It will be a shock if he manages to hold on and defy political logic about how to follow up your first win.
    Similar policies here have been so successful that you're recommending a snap election.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    Read this interview with Karaganov (reliable bellwether of 🇷🇺ruling elite majority consensus).

    If afterwards you still harbor any illusions about sustainable negotiated settlement with Putin's Kremlin on European security order read it again. And again.


    https://twitter.com/thorstenbenner/status/1513039187527806977

    As he says, war with West looks more inevitable as each day goes by.

    Hope to God he is wrong.
    Indeed. Anyone with eyes and honest evidence knows that war with the West is not just unwinnable for Russia, but could only end in rout for them, unless:

    1. The Putinists are very confident that they can mobilize 5th columns to great effect, or they can bring in China on their side (no other ally would make a significant difference), OR
    2. It goes nuclear.
    Given the shocking state of most Russian military kit, how likely are the Russians not to have skimped on nuclear weapon maintenance?
    I think you made a similar point before and it's a very fair one but not desperately comforting.

    Say 90% of their warheads don't work - that still leaves a totally trashed world in the event of them being fired. Especially since the Western retaliation would presumably have to be based on assumption Russian nukes work.
    Sometimes you just have to go nuclear and hope.

    On the positive side, the UK's unlikely to see London be quite as important going forward.
    Russian roulette
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    FPT: On the cost of living theory crisis, the caveat is that the savings ratio was insanely high during lockdown (among Tory income levels, at least), and discretionary spending hasn't rocketed after restrictions eased.

    In theory, this means there is a lot of flex in Tory household budgets, which should neuter the problem somewhat.

    Problem for Johnson is that people don't really think like that (see Prospect Theory). Also, people on lower incomes have been fucked throughout, so the general consensus that the north is lost is probably right (particularly as they spend more (%) on fuel/energy).

    There is a big pot of WFH Southern Savings that the Treasury could go after, but that cohort is the final Tory redoubt. No chance.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,348
    edited April 2022
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Turnout has surged in rural and southern areas of France to 40% by 12pm.

    However it had collapsed to only 15% in Paris by lunchtime

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1513102761021349892?s=20&t=YOSSHY7RpF1dyOPL-fO2uQ

    Approx = 15% in NYC and LA vs 40% in Alabama.

    A lot of rural France is quite left wing.
    Blimey, they really are different to us, aren't they? Young people supporting the populist right, rural areas being left wing, up is down.
    It does vary. France is a lot less heavily urbanised than this country is (one reason why France would come out of a nuclear war much less badly than we would). As you can see, the rural hinterland on the Mediterranean Coast favours Le Pen (due to the large number of Pieds Noirs and their descendants) along with the rural hinterland in the North East. In that latter region, mining towns and villages that used to vote Communist have also switched to Le Pen (similar to the shift in such places in the UK).

    Paris is a typically left wing capital city. But, Brittany, Gascony, and much of rural Western France tend to be left wing, too.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Come on guys, don’t be feeble

    FORCED CHOICE

    Melenchon v Le Pen

    Which do you choose? Just abstaining or spoiling your ballot is leaving this invidious choice to others, which is somewhat lame

    I genuinely think that is an impossible choice. Biden was self evidently useless but not insanely dangerous like his opponent. So Biden was an easy choice for all his faults. Both of these people are odious to an extreme but it is very hard to say who is worse. I would probably go Le Pen but I don't believe a word of her supposed new centrism.
    How is Melenchon dangerous exactly? At worst he'd turn out like Hollande and I can see him getting on well with Scholz despite differences on NATO.
    He wants France to withdraw from NATO and broadly become pacifist. He claimed that Venezuela had a free election. He called the US and Iran equally responsible. He supported Putin's murderous campaign in Syria. He has come dangerously near to anti-Semitism.

    I am no expert on this but the above points are taken from this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Luc_Mélenchon#Foreign_policy

    For me, that makes him dangerous. But I would say the same about Le Pen. I really don't like Macron but I would obviously for him in preference to either of these.
    Melenchon is the French Corbyn, even more left than Hollande was

    Le Pen is the French Farage crosses with Nick Griffin, even if she has moderated her views a bit.

    Macron is the French Nick Clegg.

    That is French voters' choice today
    Rubbish. You are just not listening HY. You can’t read it so neatly across from French to UK like that is the truth you are missing - just like oysters and snails are two different things.
    You can, based on their policies and ideology make a UK equivalent. Even if not exact
    Yes, this pretence that since it is correct you cannot make exact comparisons you cannot make any comparison at all is just fatuous. So long as people are aware they are generalitues there's nothing wrong with it.
    Okay then, Kle and HY, I’ll play your game.

    Macron = Rishi. Filthy rich, nice smile, once massively popular, now more is known of the fresh face, regarded so out of touch with the working class struggle so as to be toxic, so out of touch with bourgeois dislike for EU and immigration so as to be toxic.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Areas of 1st round support in 2017. I don't know french geography and population distribution, any particular reason the south coast is better Le Pen territory than the west coast?

    I'd forgotten how close she was to not making the second round. And my word the socialists have had a bad time of it since Hollande.


    Vichy France loves the fascists.
    It looks to me more like Plantagenet France favours Macron, and Capet/Valois France favours Le Pen.
    Time to resurrect the empire?

    image
    I can imagine them offering us Calais :smile:
  • Have had no phone reception for the last couple of hours which was a little scary. Luckily my phone map continued showing my position and the route most of the way.

    I stopped for my pistachio nut and beer lunch by a little river called Rec De Sant Miquel. More San Miguel was flowing than Sant Miquel; I didn’t need the bridge!


    Also just realised I’m not going to make it to the French border today. There are no rooms I can find in Portbou, or in Cerbère just over the border, so I’ve got a room in Colera instead tonight and will head for Banyuls-sur-mer in France tomorrow.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    French turnout by age in 2017.

    18 to 24 66%
    25 to 34. 68%
    35 to 49. 73%
    50 to 59. 76%
    60 to 69. 81%
    70+. 82%

    The difficulties in extrapolating too much from turnout in 2022 is whether lower/higher turnout effects those groups in the same way or whether this effects them differently .

  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    Eabhal said:

    FPT: On the cost of living theory crisis, the caveat is that the savings ratio was insanely high during lockdown (among Tory income levels, at least), and discretionary spending hasn't rocketed after restrictions eased.

    In theory, this means there is a lot of flex in Tory household budgets, which should neuter the problem somewhat.

    Problem for Johnson is that people don't really think like that (see Prospect Theory). Also, people on lower incomes have been fucked throughout, so the general consensus that the north is lost is probably right (particularly as they spend more (%) on fuel/energy).

    There is a big pot of WFH Southern Savings that the Treasury could go after, but that cohort is the final Tory redoubt. No chance.

    I was hoping we would get some rebalancing with personal debt levels going down. Instead we have house prices rocketing.......
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Turnout has surged in rural and southern areas of France to 40% by 12pm.

    However it had collapsed to only 15% in Paris by lunchtime

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1513102761021349892?s=20&t=YOSSHY7RpF1dyOPL-fO2uQ

    Approx = 15% in NYC and LA vs 40% in Alabama.

    A lot of rural France is quite left wing.
    Blimey, they really are different to us, aren't they? Young people supporting the populist right, rural areas being left wing, up is down.
    That’s what I’ve been trying to get you to realise.

    DONG! The sound of Kle Finally getting it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Come on guys, don’t be feeble

    FORCED CHOICE

    Melenchon v Le Pen

    Which do you choose? Just abstaining or spoiling your ballot is leaving this invidious choice to others, which is somewhat lame

    I genuinely think that is an impossible choice. Biden was self evidently useless but not insanely dangerous like his opponent. So Biden was an easy choice for all his faults. Both of these people are odious to an extreme but it is very hard to say who is worse. I would probably go Le Pen but I don't believe a word of her supposed new centrism.
    How is Melenchon dangerous exactly? At worst he'd turn out like Hollande and I can see him getting on well with Scholz despite differences on NATO.
    He wants France to withdraw from NATO and broadly become pacifist. He claimed that Venezuela had a free election. He called the US and Iran equally responsible. He supported Putin's murderous campaign in Syria. He has come dangerously near to anti-Semitism.

    I am no expert on this but the above points are taken from this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Luc_Mélenchon#Foreign_policy

    For me, that makes him dangerous. But I would say the same about Le Pen. I really don't like Macron but I would obviously for him in preference to either of these.
    Melenchon is the French Corbyn, even more left than Hollande was

    Le Pen is the French Farage crosses with Nick Griffin, even if she has moderated her views a bit.

    Macron is the French Nick Clegg.

    That is French voters' choice today
    Rubbish. You are just not listening HY. You can’t read it so neatly across from French to UK like that is the truth you are missing - just like oysters and snails are two different things.
    You can, based on their policies and ideology make a UK equivalent. Even if not exact
    Yes, this pretence that since it is correct you cannot make exact comparisons you cannot make any comparison at all is just fatuous. So long as people are aware they are generalitues there's nothing wrong with it.
    Okay then, Kle and HY, I’ll play your game.

    Macron = Rishi. Filthy rich, nice smile, once massively popular, now more is known of the fresh face, regarded so out of touch with the working class struggle so as to be toxic, so out of touch with bourgeois dislike for EU and immigration so as to be toxic.
    I don't think direct comparisons are perfect, I just found the logic of your position to be utterly absurd, ridiculous and rather anathema to ever commenting on any election anywhere, since most people also don't know much about their own country's politics.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    £25

    For a spiffing red mullet fish lunch. By the blue sunlit sea. With a brilliant dill salad and Turkish coffee. And four large glasses of excellent white wine. And good chat with PB

    I’ve had mediocre lunches costing 4 times that; this is a lunch I will remember for a long time



  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    Have had no phone reception for the last couple of hours which was a little scary. Luckily my phone map continued showing my position and the route most of the way.

    I stopped for my pistachio nut and beer lunch by a little river called Rec De Sant Miquel. More San Miguel was flowing than Sant Miquel; I didn’t need the bridge!


    Also just realised I’m not going to make it to the French border today. There are no rooms I can find in Portbou, or in Cerbère just over the border, so I’ve got a room in Colera instead tonight and will head for Banyuls-sur-mer in France tomorrow.

    I'm enjoying the travelogue, please keep it coming. When you've finished it would be interesting to see a map of your route.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    Farooq said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT: On the cost of living theory crisis, the caveat is that the savings ratio was insanely high during lockdown (among Tory income levels, at least), and discretionary spending hasn't rocketed after restrictions eased.

    In theory, this means there is a lot of flex in Tory household budgets, which should neuter the problem somewhat.

    Problem for Johnson is that people don't really think like that (see Prospect Theory). Also, people on lower incomes have been fucked throughout, so the general consensus that the north is lost is probably right (particularly as they spend more (%) on fuel/energy).

    There is a big pot of WFH Southern Savings that the Treasury could go after, but that cohort is the final Tory redoubt. No chance.

    Yes, fuel poverty is much more a northern problem than a southern one. You're right to focus on these regional differences.
    My personal campaign is to get better poverty indicators: "After Housing Costs" is useless if live in Ullapool or something, and it costs you £50 to go shopping in Inverness.

    Cities are also just great to live in; it's worth paying extra for that (personal view though), especially if it reduces your commute.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Come on guys, don’t be feeble

    FORCED CHOICE

    Melenchon v Le Pen

    Which do you choose? Just abstaining or spoiling your ballot is leaving this invidious choice to others, which is somewhat lame

    I genuinely think that is an impossible choice. Biden was self evidently useless but not insanely dangerous like his opponent. So Biden was an easy choice for all his faults. Both of these people are odious to an extreme but it is very hard to say who is worse. I would probably go Le Pen but I don't believe a word of her supposed new centrism.
    How is Melenchon dangerous exactly? At worst he'd turn out like Hollande and I can see him getting on well with Scholz despite differences on NATO.
    He wants France to withdraw from NATO and broadly become pacifist. He claimed that Venezuela had a free election. He called the US and Iran equally responsible. He supported Putin's murderous campaign in Syria. He has come dangerously near to anti-Semitism.

    I am no expert on this but the above points are taken from this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Luc_Mélenchon#Foreign_policy

    For me, that makes him dangerous. But I would say the same about Le Pen. I really don't like Macron but I would obviously for him in preference to either of these.
    Melenchon is the French Corbyn, even more left than Hollande was

    Le Pen is the French Farage crosses with Nick Griffin, even if she has moderated her views a bit.

    Macron is the French Nick Clegg.

    That is French voters' choice today
    Rubbish. You are just not listening HY. You can’t read it so neatly across from French to UK like that is the truth you are missing - just like oysters and snails are two different things.
    You can, based on their policies and ideology make a UK equivalent. Even if not exact
    Yes, this pretence that since it is correct you cannot make exact comparisons you cannot make any comparison at all is just fatuous. So long as people are aware they are generalitues there's nothing wrong with it.
    Okay then, Kle and HY, I’ll play your game.

    Macron = Rishi. Filthy rich, nice smile, once massively popular, now more is known of the fresh face, regarded so out of touch with the working class struggle so as to be toxic, so out of touch with bourgeois dislike for EU and immigration so as to be toxic.
    Except Sunak backed Brexit, so Clegg is still the more apt comparison for Macron and also now filthy rich
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Farooq said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT: On the cost of living theory crisis, the caveat is that the savings ratio was insanely high during lockdown (among Tory income levels, at least), and discretionary spending hasn't rocketed after restrictions eased.

    In theory, this means there is a lot of flex in Tory household budgets, which should neuter the problem somewhat.

    Problem for Johnson is that people don't really think like that (see Prospect Theory). Also, people on lower incomes have been fucked throughout, so the general consensus that the north is lost is probably right (particularly as they spend more (%) on fuel/energy).

    There is a big pot of WFH Southern Savings that the Treasury could go after, but that cohort is the final Tory redoubt. No chance.

    Yes, fuel poverty is much more a northern problem than a southern one. You're right to focus on these regional differences.
    I wasn't sure if your post was meant to be serious or ironic. Just to say though, there's quite a lot of fuel poverty in affluent Dorset.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    France has the reverse situation to the UK .

    Older people are much more pro EU and anti the far right in France . And that group is more likely to vote .
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812

    Have had no phone reception for the last couple of hours which was a little scary. Luckily my phone map continued showing my position and the route most of the way.

    I stopped for my pistachio nut and beer lunch by a little river called Rec De Sant Miquel. More San Miguel was flowing than Sant Miquel; I didn’t need the bridge!


    Also just realised I’m not going to make it to the French border today. There are no rooms I can find in Portbou, or in Cerbère just over the border, so I’ve got a room in Colera instead tonight and will head for Banyuls-sur-mer in France tomorrow.

    How could you resist that bridge? You could replay an entire Indiana Jones scene: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Indiana+Jones+on+a+bridge&qpvt=Indiana+Jones+on+a+bridge&view=detail&mid=D34B65B09B90ED1619E8D34B65B09B90ED1619E8&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=/videos/search?q=Indiana+Jones+on+a+bridge&qpvt=Indiana+Jones+on+a+bridge&FORM=VDRE
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    edited April 2022
    nico679 said:

    France has the reverse situation to the UK .

    Older people are much more pro EU and anti the far right in France . And that group is more likely to vote .

    God, let's hope the 'people tend to move to the right as they age' thing doesn't apply in France then - they'll be electing Adolphe 'itler in 40 years time.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Pulpstar said:

    kle4 said:

    Areas of 1st round support in 2017. I don't know french geography and population distribution, any particular reason the south coast is better Le Pen territory than the west coast?


    East coast of France o_O ?!
    The east west/left right split in France is an ongoing peculiarity. And it does seem to date back to the Angevin empire, if not before

    But the the English welsh border (with consequent political differences) dates back to the Anglo Saxon invasions of Britain (if not before)

    It would be fascinating to find the oldest politico-cultural frontier in the world, that is not obviously explained by geography (eg islands or big rivers)

    Maybe Israel?
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Come on guys, don’t be feeble

    FORCED CHOICE

    Melenchon v Le Pen

    Which do you choose? Just abstaining or spoiling your ballot is leaving this invidious choice to others, which is somewhat lame

    I genuinely think that is an impossible choice. Biden was self evidently useless but not insanely dangerous like his opponent. So Biden was an easy choice for all his faults. Both of these people are odious to an extreme but it is very hard to say who is worse. I would probably go Le Pen but I don't believe a word of her supposed new centrism.
    How is Melenchon dangerous exactly? At worst he'd turn out like Hollande and I can see him getting on well with Scholz despite differences on NATO.
    He wants France to withdraw from NATO and broadly become pacifist. He claimed that Venezuela had a free election. He called the US and Iran equally responsible. He supported Putin's murderous campaign in Syria. He has come dangerously near to anti-Semitism.

    I am no expert on this but the above points are taken from this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Luc_Mélenchon#Foreign_policy

    For me, that makes him dangerous. But I would say the same about Le Pen. I really don't like Macron but I would obviously for him in preference to either of these.
    Melenchon is the French Corbyn, even more left than Hollande was

    Le Pen is the French Farage crosses with Nick Griffin, even if she has moderated her views a bit.

    Macron is the French Nick Clegg.

    That is French voters' choice today
    Rubbish. You are just not listening HY. You can’t read it so neatly across from French to UK like that is the truth you are missing - just like oysters and snails are two different things.
    You can, based on their policies and ideology make a UK equivalent. Even if not exact
    Yes, this pretence that since it is correct you cannot make exact comparisons you cannot make any comparison at all is just fatuous. So long as people are aware they are generalitues there's nothing wrong with it.
    Okay then, Kle and HY, I’ll play your game.

    Macron = Rishi. Filthy rich, nice smile, once massively popular, now more is known of the fresh face, regarded so out of touch with the working class struggle so as to be toxic, so out of touch with bourgeois dislike for EU and immigration so as to be toxic.
    HELPFUL REMINDER

    the only winning move is not to play
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    kle4 said:

    Areas of 1st round support in 2017. I don't know french geography and population distribution, any particular reason the south coast is better Le Pen territory than the west coast?

    I'd forgotten how close she was to not making the second round. And my word the socialists have had a bad time of it since Hollande.


    Vichy France loves the fascists.
    I think it is normally traditional to post the Chernobyl fallout map here as well.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Would not be surprised to see Le Pen win today.
    Be very surprised to see a repeat in two weeks.

    Why? Since 2014 Macron has been the rich elite with a manifesto for the rich elite that does nothing for the poor, the overtaxed workers throughout the country. And he has done zilch to dispel this portrait, or to tack towards the EU scepticism strong in every stratification of the French Nation.

    It will be a shock if he manages to hold on and defy political logic about how to follow up your first win.
    Polls gave very little indication he would be in trouble, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to consider it a shock if he lost the first round (which is easier), let alone the second.

    Been since the mid 90s since the winner of the first did not win the second it appears.
    Nonsense. As I have been explaining for two months, the polls have been showing Macron in trouble and with a real fight on his hands. Go back to the rude replies to me when I am saying this same thing when Macron is on 30 Le Pen 16 and Melenchon 12. The truth is the electorate has swung right, and the lefty yellow jackets keener now to neither vote macron or abstain, but vote him out.

    This is how French politics works. Fillion had about 20% last time, when pecresse platform swung right this time, macron gobbled half her vote and everyone said pecresse got it wrong. SHE GOT IT RIGHT. For a pecresse or macron to have won this one from centre right they needed to tack to the right, at least more sceptical to EU.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    The Sunday Rawnsley:

    The chancellor’s family’s fortune being shielded from his tax collectors would smell rotten in any circumstances. The current context made it absolutely toxic.

    For an Instagram politician who is an obsessive curator of his personal image, it took the chancellor a remarkably long time to grasp how untenable this was. The statement announced she would be doing so [paying UK tax] in future, claiming now to “understand and appreciate the British sense of fairness”. A growing number of Tories had been privately saying that Mr Sunak could not remain at the Treasury if his wife didn’t change her tax status.

    It will be even more of an issue whether a super-rich chancellor can be the man to persuade less affluent Britons that they will have to endure hard times. There’s much debate among Tories about why the chancellor failed to appreciate that his wife’s tax position was bound to cause uproar. Is it because he is so rich or because his political instincts are so poor that he could not see how this would look through the eyes of the electorate?

    The two most senior members of the government have now scandalised the country. There’s a pattern to the behaviour of this government. Its leaders demand painful sacrifices of everyone else while claiming special privileges for themselves. That’s how they act because that’s how they think.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    Alistair said:

    kle4 said:

    Areas of 1st round support in 2017. I don't know french geography and population distribution, any particular reason the south coast is better Le Pen territory than the west coast?

    I'd forgotten how close she was to not making the second round. And my word the socialists have had a bad time of it since Hollande.


    Vichy France loves the fascists.
    I think it is normally traditional to post the Chernobyl fallout map here as well.
    As I understand it, the south of the country never liked the Vichy regime, and there was a line drawn?

    And the initial popularity of the first couple of years of Vichy, did a Rishi 🙂
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Have had no phone reception for the last couple of hours which was a little scary. Luckily my phone map continued showing my position and the route most of the way.

    I stopped for my pistachio nut and beer lunch by a little river called Rec De Sant Miquel. More San Miguel was flowing than Sant Miquel; I didn’t need the bridge!


    Also just realised I’m not going to make it to the French border today. There are no rooms I can find in Portbou, or in Cerbère just over the border, so I’ve got a room in Colera instead tonight and will head for Banyuls-sur-mer in France tomorrow.

    Are you doing this entirely as you go? Ie carrying all your luggage as you hike?

    That’s impressive, if so. Must be quite a rucksack

    I’d love to do a long long walking tour (I love hiking, I love that pleasurable exhaustion at the end of the day, the much earned dinner, the deep deep sleep) what puts me off is lugging all my stuff

    I know holiday companies will do it all for you but it feels a bit like cheating
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    nico679 said:

    France has the reverse situation to the UK .

    Older people are much more pro EU and anti the far right in France . And that group is more likely to vote .

    Pensioners in France will vote more for Pecresse than the French average just as in the the UK pensioners also vote more for the Conservatives than the UK average.

    Just yes French pensioners are also more anti Le Pen than the French average as you say
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Come on guys, don’t be feeble

    FORCED CHOICE

    Melenchon v Le Pen

    Which do you choose? Just abstaining or spoiling your ballot is leaving this invidious choice to others, which is somewhat lame

    I genuinely think that is an impossible choice. Biden was self evidently useless but not insanely dangerous like his opponent. So Biden was an easy choice for all his faults. Both of these people are odious to an extreme but it is very hard to say who is worse. I would probably go Le Pen but I don't believe a word of her supposed new centrism.
    How is Melenchon dangerous exactly? At worst he'd turn out like Hollande and I can see him getting on well with Scholz despite differences on NATO.
    He wants France to withdraw from NATO and broadly become pacifist. He claimed that Venezuela had a free election. He called the US and Iran equally responsible. He supported Putin's murderous campaign in Syria. He has come dangerously near to anti-Semitism.

    I am no expert on this but the above points are taken from this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Luc_Mélenchon#Foreign_policy

    For me, that makes him dangerous. But I would say the same about Le Pen. I really don't like Macron but I would obviously for him in preference to either of these.
    Melenchon is the French Corbyn, even more left than Hollande was

    Le Pen is the French Farage crosses with Nick Griffin, even if she has moderated her views a bit.

    Macron is the French Nick Clegg.

    That is French voters' choice today
    Rubbish. You are just not listening HY. You can’t read it so neatly across from French to UK like that is the truth you are missing - just like oysters and snails are two different things.
    You can, based on their policies and ideology make a UK equivalent. Even if not exact
    Yes, this pretence that since it is correct you cannot make exact comparisons you cannot make any comparison at all is just fatuous. So long as people are aware they are generalitues there's nothing wrong with it.
    Okay then, Kle and HY, I’ll play your game.

    Macron = Rishi. Filthy rich, nice smile, once massively popular, now more is known of the fresh face, regarded so out of touch with the working class struggle so as to be toxic, so out of touch with bourgeois dislike for EU and immigration so as to be toxic.
    Except Sunak backed Brexit, so Clegg is still the more apt comparison for Macron and also now filthy rich
    “ Except Sunak backed Brexit “. I 110% knew you would post that. You can be so pedantic sometimes 🤦‍♀️
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    Have had no phone reception for the last couple of hours which was a little scary. Luckily my phone map continued showing my position and the route most of the way.

    I stopped for my pistachio nut and beer lunch by a little river called Rec De Sant Miquel. More San Miguel was flowing than Sant Miquel; I didn’t need the bridge!


    Also just realised I’m not going to make it to the French border today. There are no rooms I can find in Portbou, or in Cerbère just over the border, so I’ve got a room in Colera instead tonight and will head for Banyuls-sur-mer in France tomorrow.

    I'm enjoying the travelogue, please keep it coming. When you've finished it would be interesting to see a map of your route.
    Yes I agree would b every interesting. Also how you keep the beer cool.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Actually I’ve just realised the answer to my own question. The Basque Country. The borders of the Basque Country are still visible in politics today, especially in Spain, and yet they date back to the end of the Ice Age, and have no obvious geographical explanation - this is just the place the mysterious speakers of basque settled about 10,000 years ago, supposedly
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    I'm reliably informed that one of the things you learn by reading Russian literature is that Ukraine does not equal Russia - as claimed by Mr Putin in his wild fantasies.

    Cancelling Russian culture is silly and counter productive for several reasons.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    IanB2 said:

    The Sunday Rawnsley:

    The chancellor’s family’s fortune being shielded from his tax collectors would smell rotten in any circumstances. The current context made it absolutely toxic.

    For an Instagram politician who is an obsessive curator of his personal image, it took the chancellor a remarkably long time to grasp how untenable this was. The statement announced she would be doing so [paying UK tax] in future, claiming now to “understand and appreciate the British sense of fairness”. A growing number of Tories had been privately saying that Mr Sunak could not remain at the Treasury if his wife didn’t change her tax status.

    It will be even more of an issue whether a super-rich chancellor can be the man to persuade less affluent Britons that they will have to endure hard times. There’s much debate among Tories about why the chancellor failed to appreciate that his wife’s tax position was bound to cause uproar. Is it because he is so rich or because his political instincts are so poor that he could not see how this would look through the eyes of the electorate?

    The two most senior members of the government have now scandalised the country. There’s a pattern to the behaviour of this government. Its leaders demand painful sacrifices of everyone else while claiming special privileges for themselves. That’s how they act because that’s how they think.

    Not paying UK tax on foreign income is fairly standard. It's the non-dom status that is bizarre. If you are in the UK for more than half the year several years in a row being domiciled should not be a choice. Promising you don't intend to stay here permanently is just an opt out.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Come on guys, don’t be feeble

    FORCED CHOICE

    Melenchon v Le Pen

    Which do you choose? Just abstaining or spoiling your ballot is leaving this invidious choice to others, which is somewhat lame

    I genuinely think that is an impossible choice. Biden was self evidently useless but not insanely dangerous like his opponent. So Biden was an easy choice for all his faults. Both of these people are odious to an extreme but it is very hard to say who is worse. I would probably go Le Pen but I don't believe a word of her supposed new centrism.
    How is Melenchon dangerous exactly? At worst he'd turn out like Hollande and I can see him getting on well with Scholz despite differences on NATO.
    He wants France to withdraw from NATO and broadly become pacifist. He claimed that Venezuela had a free election. He called the US and Iran equally responsible. He supported Putin's murderous campaign in Syria. He has come dangerously near to anti-Semitism.

    I am no expert on this but the above points are taken from this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Luc_Mélenchon#Foreign_policy

    For me, that makes him dangerous. But I would say the same about Le Pen. I really don't like Macron but I would obviously for him in preference to either of these.
    Melenchon is the French Corbyn, even more left than Hollande was

    Le Pen is the French Farage crosses with Nick Griffin, even if she has moderated her views a bit.

    Macron is the French Nick Clegg.

    That is French voters' choice today
    Rubbish. You are just not listening HY. You can’t read it so neatly across from French to UK like that is the truth you are missing - just like oysters and snails are two different things.
    You can, based on their policies and ideology make a UK equivalent. Even if not exact
    Yes, this pretence that since it is correct you cannot make exact comparisons you cannot make any comparison at all is just fatuous. So long as people are aware they are generalitues there's nothing wrong with it.
    Okay then, Kle and HY, I’ll play your game.

    Macron = Rishi. Filthy rich, nice smile, once massively popular, now more is known of the fresh face, regarded so out of touch with the working class struggle so as to be toxic, so out of touch with bourgeois dislike for EU and immigration so as to be toxic.
    I don't think direct comparisons are perfect, I just found the logic of your position to be utterly absurd, ridiculous and rather anathema to ever commenting on any election anywhere, since most people also don't know much about their own country's politics.
    “ the logic of your position to be utterly absurd, ridiculous and rather anathema to ever commenting on any election anywhere “

    You saying there isn’t an element of truth in there? 😂

    We would never be arguing about anything on here if it was so logical what’s a vote winner or loser.

    We, PBers, don’t even have UK and US politics so logically nailed down, let alone the tribal vagaries of every other country!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    Eabhal said:

    Farooq said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT: On the cost of living theory crisis, the caveat is that the savings ratio was insanely high during lockdown (among Tory income levels, at least), and discretionary spending hasn't rocketed after restrictions eased.

    In theory, this means there is a lot of flex in Tory household budgets, which should neuter the problem somewhat.

    Problem for Johnson is that people don't really think like that (see Prospect Theory). Also, people on lower incomes have been fucked throughout, so the general consensus that the north is lost is probably right (particularly as they spend more (%) on fuel/energy).

    There is a big pot of WFH Southern Savings that the Treasury could go after, but that cohort is the final Tory redoubt. No chance.

    Yes, fuel poverty is much more a northern problem than a southern one. You're right to focus on these regional differences.
    My personal campaign is to get better poverty indicators: "After Housing Costs" is useless if live in Ullapool or something, and it costs you £50 to go shopping in Inverness.

    Cities are also just great to live in; it's worth paying extra for that (personal view though), especially if it reduces your commute.
    Why would you want to shop in Inverness in the first place.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,241
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    kle4 said:

    Areas of 1st round support in 2017. I don't know french geography and population distribution, any particular reason the south coast is better Le Pen territory than the west coast?


    East coast of France o_O ?!
    The east west/left right split in France is an ongoing peculiarity. And it does seem to date back to the Angevin empire, if not before

    But the the English welsh border (with consequent political differences) dates back to the Anglo Saxon invasions of Britain (if not before)

    It would be fascinating to find the oldest politico-cultural frontier in the world, that is not obviously explained by geography (eg islands or big rivers)

    Maybe Israel?
    That's not very old, the population was mostly Arab until after WW1.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    France has the reverse situation to the UK .

    Older people are much more pro EU and anti the far right in France . And that group is more likely to vote .

    Pensioners in France will vote more for Pecresse than the French average just as in the the UK pensioners also vote more for the Conservatives than the UK average.

    Just yes French pensioners are also more anti Le Pen than the French average as you say
    Older people there seem more resistant to Le Pens fluffy makeover. I’d be much more worried for Macron if he had to rely on younger people to get into office . As we’ve seen in the UK if you don’t get older people onside it’s a huge struggle to get elected.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    Alistair said:

    kle4 said:

    Areas of 1st round support in 2017. I don't know french geography and population distribution, any particular reason the south coast is better Le Pen territory than the west coast?

    I'd forgotten how close she was to not making the second round. And my word the socialists have had a bad time of it since Hollande.


    Vichy France loves the fascists.
    I think it is normally traditional to post the Chernobyl fallout map here as well.
    As I understand it, the south of the country never liked the Vichy regime, and there was a line drawn?

    And the initial popularity of the first couple of years of Vichy, did a Rishi 🙂
    As I understand it, it was the south and east of France which were under Vichy control, initially. It was the north coast, Paris, and the western seaboard which were under German occupation.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    France has the reverse situation to the UK .

    Older people are much more pro EU and anti the far right in France . And that group is more likely to vote .

    Pensioners in France will vote more for Pecresse than the French average just as in the the UK pensioners also vote more for the Conservatives than the UK average.

    Just yes French pensioners are also more anti Le Pen than the French average as you say
    Older people there seem more resistant to Le Pens fluffy makeover. I’d be much more worried for Macron if he had to rely on younger people to get into office . As we’ve seen in the UK if you don’t get older people onside it’s a huge struggle to get elected.
    Indeed, it was older people here who kept Corbyn out and older people in France who will still likely keep Le Pen and Melenchon out
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    Unofficial French turnout at 14.00

    44.76 %

    In 2017 49.53%

    I’m posting this as seen on twitter and can’t seem to find the official confirmation of this yet .
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    Farooq said:

    Find someone who loves you as much as MoonRabbit loves Macron.

    I don’t even understand that one Farooq. 🤷‍♀️ I’m not been commentating on what I like or would vote for in France these last few months, only that the polls have not reflected what has changed from Macron winning last time.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,032
    edited April 2022
    Eabhal said:

    Farooq said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT: On the cost of living theory crisis, the caveat is that the savings ratio was insanely high during lockdown (among Tory income levels, at least), and discretionary spending hasn't rocketed after restrictions eased.

    In theory, this means there is a lot of flex in Tory household budgets, which should neuter the problem somewhat.

    Problem for Johnson is that people don't really think like that (see Prospect Theory). Also, people on lower incomes have been fucked throughout, so the general consensus that the north is lost is probably right (particularly as they spend more (%) on fuel/energy).

    There is a big pot of WFH Southern Savings that the Treasury could go after, but that cohort is the final Tory redoubt. No chance.

    Yes, fuel poverty is much more a northern problem than a southern one. You're right to focus on these regional differences.
    My personal campaign is to get better poverty indicators: "After Housing Costs" is useless if live in Ullapool or something, and it costs you £50 to go shopping in Inverness.

    Cities are also just great to live in; it's worth paying extra for that (personal view though), especially if it reduces your commute.
    Especially if you have to go by ferry !!!!!!!!

    The Lossiemouth fishing fleet decamped to Lochinver in the 60s and the crews used to travel on Sunday evening by road to be ready to sail 1 minute after midnight, due to their observance of the sabbath

    This changed when they moved to Peterhead and were at sea over the sabbath
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    edited April 2022
    Betfair Exchange, first round winner:

    Macron 1.18 / 1.25
    Le Pen 4.2 / 6.2

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.193139730

    Smarkets, first round winner:

    Macron 1.17 / 1.26
    Le Pen 5.5 / 7,2

    https://smarkets.com/event/42417380/politics/europe/france/french-presidential-election-2022-first-round-winner
  • CoL? Tories? Hello?
  • malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Farooq said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT: On the cost of living theory crisis, the caveat is that the savings ratio was insanely high during lockdown (among Tory income levels, at least), and discretionary spending hasn't rocketed after restrictions eased.

    In theory, this means there is a lot of flex in Tory household budgets, which should neuter the problem somewhat.

    Problem for Johnson is that people don't really think like that (see Prospect Theory). Also, people on lower incomes have been fucked throughout, so the general consensus that the north is lost is probably right (particularly as they spend more (%) on fuel/energy).

    There is a big pot of WFH Southern Savings that the Treasury could go after, but that cohort is the final Tory redoubt. No chance.

    Yes, fuel poverty is much more a northern problem than a southern one. You're right to focus on these regional differences.
    My personal campaign is to get better poverty indicators: "After Housing Costs" is useless if live in Ullapool or something, and it costs you £50 to go shopping in Inverness.

    Cities are also just great to live in; it's worth paying extra for that (personal view though), especially if it reduces your commute.
    Why would you want to shop in Inverness in the first place.
    My in laws used to enjoy a day out to Inverness though sometimes Aberdeen
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    Leon said:

    Have had no phone reception for the last couple of hours which was a little scary. Luckily my phone map continued showing my position and the route most of the way.

    I stopped for my pistachio nut and beer lunch by a little river called Rec De Sant Miquel. More San Miguel was flowing than Sant Miquel; I didn’t need the bridge!


    Also just realised I’m not going to make it to the French border today. There are no rooms I can find in Portbou, or in Cerbère just over the border, so I’ve got a room in Colera instead tonight and will head for Banyuls-sur-mer in France tomorrow.

    Are you doing this entirely as you go? Ie carrying all your luggage as you hike?

    That’s impressive, if so. Must be quite a rucksack

    I’d love to do a long long walking tour (I love hiking, I love that pleasurable exhaustion at the end of the day, the much earned dinner, the deep deep sleep) what puts me off is lugging all my stuff

    I know holiday companies will do it all for you but it feels a bit like cheating
    I do the same but on a bike, off road. Organise myself and it is wonderful for all the reasons you mention. I prefer the bike to walking as (in my opinion) you see more in particular wildlife as you tend to catch it by surprise.

    I have done SW Coast of France, Normandy and Brittany and would have done Loire this spring if I hadn't broken my legs.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    Rishi Sunak is about to be overtaken by Tom Tugendhat for second place in the next Tory leader stakes on BE.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.160663234
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    nico679 said:

    Unofficial French turnout at 14.00

    44.76 %

    In 2017 49.53%

    I’m posting this as seen on twitter and can’t seem to find the official confirmation of this yet .

    There won’t be. Official turnouts are published at 12.00 and 17.00.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Andy_JS said:

    Rishi Sunak is about to be overtaken by Tom Tugendhat for second place in the next Tory leader stakes on BE.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.160663234

    Rather ridiculous given Tugendhat is a Remainer unlike Sunak and not even in the Cabinet.

    Wallace should be in the top 3 to succeed Boris alongside Truss and Sunak, not Tugendhat
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    Andy_JS said:

    Rishi Sunak is about to be overtaken by Tom Tugendhat for second place in the next Tory leader stakes on BE.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.160663234

    Big moment.

    For Tom backers, and ERG backing Harper, Rishi demise only makes VONC more likely not less likely? Big Dog entering a new Sphere of Danger for next ten weeks?

    Cummings might start posting from the Book of Revelations.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,955
    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    Farooq said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT: On the cost of living theory crisis, the caveat is that the savings ratio was insanely high during lockdown (among Tory income levels, at least), and discretionary spending hasn't rocketed after restrictions eased.

    In theory, this means there is a lot of flex in Tory household budgets, which should neuter the problem somewhat.

    Problem for Johnson is that people don't really think like that (see Prospect Theory). Also, people on lower incomes have been fucked throughout, so the general consensus that the north is lost is probably right (particularly as they spend more (%) on fuel/energy).

    There is a big pot of WFH Southern Savings that the Treasury could go after, but that cohort is the final Tory redoubt. No chance.

    Yes, fuel poverty is much more a northern problem than a southern one. You're right to focus on these regional differences.
    My personal campaign is to get better poverty indicators: "After Housing Costs" is useless if live in Ullapool or something, and it costs you £50 to go shopping in Inverness.

    Cities are also just great to live in; it's worth paying extra for that (personal view though), especially if it reduces your commute.
    Why would you want to shop in Inverness in the first place.
    There’s a Tesco superstore in Ullapool, I’m sure it’ll supply as much flaked Parmesan as anyone could eat.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497

    Farooq said:

    Find someone who loves you as much as MoonRabbit loves Macron.

    I don’t even understand that one Farooq. 🤷‍♀️ I’m not been commentating on what I like or would vote for in France these last few months, only that the polls have not reflected what has changed from Macron winning last time.
    Okay. I’ll play along.

    Interestingly though, better than the game Leon was playing, I presume the Wikipedia has lined them up from most extreme left to most extreme right? So what are the subtle differences between the platforms? What are the French libdems or long standing liberal party?

    And what did the French “Anarchist” grouping really believe in to have denounced Marxism as likely to result in dangerous anarchy?

    and “in so much we can read across our innate socialised UKness” where do we sit on this spectrum?

    I guess as right of centre, I would like the Macron, Pecresse, lessalle, Dupont positions most?

    image
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Rishi Sunak is about to be overtaken by Tom Tugendhat for second place in the next Tory leader stakes on BE.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.160663234

    Rather ridiculous given Tugendhat is a Remainer unlike Sunak and not even in the Cabinet.

    Wallace should be in the top 3 to succeed Boris alongside Truss and Sunak, not Tugendhat
    Is the Leaver/Remainer thing still a dynamic though? I get the impression that the Tories are now seeing Brexit as something of an embarrassment best forgotten about. (The last strained attempt to make a virtue out of it was the stuff with Rees-Mogg and The Sun but I doubt there'll be any repetition of that - just too silly.)
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618
    Farooq said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Have had no phone reception for the last couple of hours which was a little scary. Luckily my phone map continued showing my position and the route most of the way.

    I stopped for my pistachio nut and beer lunch by a little river called Rec De Sant Miquel. More San Miguel was flowing than Sant Miquel; I didn’t need the bridge!


    Also just realised I’m not going to make it to the French border today. There are no rooms I can find in Portbou, or in Cerbère just over the border, so I’ve got a room in Colera instead tonight and will head for Banyuls-sur-mer in France tomorrow.

    Are you doing this entirely as you go? Ie carrying all your luggage as you hike?

    That’s impressive, if so. Must be quite a rucksack

    I’d love to do a long long walking tour (I love hiking, I love that pleasurable exhaustion at the end of the day, the much earned dinner, the deep deep sleep) what puts me off is lugging all my stuff

    I know holiday companies will do it all for you but it feels a bit like cheating
    I do the same but on a bike, off road. Organise myself and it is wonderful for all the reasons you mention. I prefer the bike to walking as (in my opinion) you see more in particular wildlife as you tend to catch it by surprise.

    I have done SW Coast of France, Normandy and Brittany and would have done Loire this spring if I hadn't broken my legs.
    I've noticed that some wildlife is unfazed by bikes even if they see you. I've managed to get close to rabbits on the road side, and birds of prey on fence posts on bike, and just stop and look at them for a while. They can see you but they just don't seem to care.
    It doesn't seem to work with deer; they just scarper anyway. And weirdly cows seem to get more freaked out by bikes than if you're on foot.
    Cows are not too keen on me on my mountain bike.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j3PbV-08rc&ab_channel=JohnDoyle
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Leon said:

    Have had no phone reception for the last couple of hours which was a little scary. Luckily my phone map continued showing my position and the route most of the way.

    I stopped for my pistachio nut and beer lunch by a little river called Rec De Sant Miquel. More San Miguel was flowing than Sant Miquel; I didn’t need the bridge!


    Also just realised I’m not going to make it to the French border today. There are no rooms I can find in Portbou, or in Cerbère just over the border, so I’ve got a room in Colera instead tonight and will head for Banyuls-sur-mer in France tomorrow.

    Are you doing this entirely as you go? Ie carrying all your luggage as you hike?

    That’s impressive, if so. Must be quite a rucksack

    I’d love to do a long long walking tour (I love hiking, I love that pleasurable exhaustion at the end of the day, the much earned dinner, the deep deep sleep) what puts me off is lugging all my stuff

    I know holiday companies will do it all for you but it feels a bit like cheating
    It's not cheating - as long as you set your own rules and follow them. I've never used any of the various sherpa companies (the ones that move your luggage for you), but I can't recall hearing any complaints about them from people who have. And it'd be a great way of experiencing a walk - more so than struggling around with a tent, as I often do.

    The only downsides are the cost and the fact it fixes your itinerary - you generally can't decide to miss a really wet day. But as you're staying in a hotel at the end of it, that's less important.

    I've only got two national trails to do before I've completed all of them, and I'm seriously considering using a sherpa service for the Southern Upland Way - though it looks as though it's not a full service for the entire route. I want to enjoy the SUW.
  • SUPERKEVSUPERKEV Posts: 4
    This is all hype, to get us excited !!. Macron wins both rounds easily. Bet on it !!.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Rishi Sunak is about to be overtaken by Tom Tugendhat for second place in the next Tory leader stakes on BE.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.160663234

    Rather ridiculous given Tugendhat is a Remainer unlike Sunak and not even in the Cabinet.

    Wallace should be in the top 3 to succeed Boris alongside Truss and Sunak, not Tugendhat
    Is the Leaver/Remainer thing still a dynamic though? I get the impression that the Tories are now seeing Brexit as something of an embarrassment best forgotten about. (The last strained attempt to make a virtue out of it was the stuff with Rees-Mogg and The Sun but I doubt there'll be any repetition of that - just too silly.)
    Of course it is, given the vast majority of Tory voters let alone Tory members are still strongly pro Brexit and the Brexit deal we have. That will continue to be the case for at least a generation
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    Farooq said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Have had no phone reception for the last couple of hours which was a little scary. Luckily my phone map continued showing my position and the route most of the way.

    I stopped for my pistachio nut and beer lunch by a little river called Rec De Sant Miquel. More San Miguel was flowing than Sant Miquel; I didn’t need the bridge!


    Also just realised I’m not going to make it to the French border today. There are no rooms I can find in Portbou, or in Cerbère just over the border, so I’ve got a room in Colera instead tonight and will head for Banyuls-sur-mer in France tomorrow.

    Are you doing this entirely as you go? Ie carrying all your luggage as you hike?

    That’s impressive, if so. Must be quite a rucksack

    I’d love to do a long long walking tour (I love hiking, I love that pleasurable exhaustion at the end of the day, the much earned dinner, the deep deep sleep) what puts me off is lugging all my stuff

    I know holiday companies will do it all for you but it feels a bit like cheating
    I do the same but on a bike, off road. Organise myself and it is wonderful for all the reasons you mention. I prefer the bike to walking as (in my opinion) you see more in particular wildlife as you tend to catch it by surprise.

    I have done SW Coast of France, Normandy and Brittany and would have done Loire this spring if I hadn't broken my legs.
    I've noticed that some wildlife is unfazed by bikes even if they see you. I've managed to get close to rabbits on the road side, and birds of prey on fence posts on bike, and just stop and look at them for a while. They can see you but they just don't seem to care.
    It doesn't seem to work with deer; they just scarper anyway. And weirdly cows seem to get more freaked out by bikes than if you're on foot.
    Several times I have had something travel next to me. The most impressive was a barn owl who flew close and parallel to me for a bit.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    I know Sunday is your PB day of rest HY, but have you noticed the Aussie election called.

    Has your man Morrison waited till the last possible moment?

    The polls have turn back towards the government in April.

    image
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,032
    edited April 2022
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Rishi Sunak is about to be overtaken by Tom Tugendhat for second place in the next Tory leader stakes on BE.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.160663234

    Rather ridiculous given Tugendhat is a Remainer unlike Sunak and not even in the Cabinet.

    Wallace should be in the top 3 to succeed Boris alongside Truss and Sunak, not Tugendhat
    Is the Leaver/Remainer thing still a dynamic though? I get the impression that the Tories are now seeing Brexit as something of an embarrassment best forgotten about. (The last strained attempt to make a virtue out of it was the stuff with Rees-Mogg and The Sun but I doubt there'll be any repetition of that - just too silly.)
    Of course it is, given the vast majority of Tory voters let alone Tory members are still strongly pro Brexit and the Brexit deal we have. That will continue to be the case for at least a generation
    You live in a world of make believe

    I am in favour of brexit but want a deal that draws the UK - EU closer together especially on trade
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    edited April 2022
    SUPERKEV said:

    This is all hype, to get us excited !!. Macron wins both rounds easily. Bet on it !!.

    The first round is no shoe in for Macron . Several polls put Le Pen well within the margin of error and she could benefit from last minute transfers from Zemmour who has been losing votes to her over the last few weeks.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    Read this interview with Karaganov (reliable bellwether of 🇷🇺ruling elite majority consensus).

    If afterwards you still harbor any illusions about sustainable negotiated settlement with Putin's Kremlin on European security order read it again. And again.


    https://twitter.com/thorstenbenner/status/1513039187527806977

    As he says, war with West looks more inevitable as each day goes by.

    Hope to God he is wrong.
    Indeed. Anyone with eyes and honest evidence knows that war with the West is not just unwinnable for Russia, but could only end in rout for them, unless:

    1. The Putinists are very confident that they can mobilize 5th columns to great effect, or they can bring in China on their side (no other ally would make a significant difference), OR
    2. It goes nuclear.
    Given the shocking state of most Russian military kit, how likely are the Russians not to have skimped on nuclear weapon maintenance?
    I think you made a similar point before and it's a very fair one but not desperately comforting.

    Say 90% of their warheads don't work - that still leaves a totally trashed world in the event of them being fired. Especially since the Western retaliation would presumably have to be based on assumption Russian nukes work.
    I made a similar comment on the dead thread. Assume 90% don't work, and we can shoot down 90%. How many Russian nukes get through?

    Which raises an interesting question. How many nuke hits should Western countries be willing to take in order to save Western civilization and defeat Russia's repulsive supremacist beliefs?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    Have had no phone reception for the last couple of hours which was a little scary. Luckily my phone map continued showing my position and the route most of the way.

    I stopped for my pistachio nut and beer lunch by a little river called Rec De Sant Miquel. More San Miguel was flowing than Sant Miquel; I didn’t need the bridge!


    Also just realised I’m not going to make it to the French border today. There are no rooms I can find in Portbou, or in Cerbère just over the border, so I’ve got a room in Colera instead tonight and will head for Banyuls-sur-mer in France tomorrow.

    Are you doing this entirely as you go? Ie carrying all your luggage as you hike?

    That’s impressive, if so. Must be quite a rucksack

    I’d love to do a long long walking tour (I love hiking, I love that pleasurable exhaustion at the end of the day, the much earned dinner, the deep deep sleep) what puts me off is lugging all my stuff

    I know holiday companies will do it all for you but it feels a bit like cheating
    Everything is in my rucksack, which was small enough to be Ryanair hand luggage. All I’m carrying is enough underwear and t-shirts for a week, a couple of shirts and my washbag. I’ve got a (vey classy Fortnum & Mason) shopping bag to carry my daily beer and lunch and my phone battery pack. I’ve managed to attach my jacket to my rucksack, which is handy as it won’t fit inside. I expect my one pair of jeans will be able to walk home on their own!
    Cool

    Modern down jackets are brilliant for these reasons. They keep you warm in the cold and dry in the wet, yet they are featherlight, and you can squash them into a daypack if needs be

    You do need a guaranteed run of good weather tho. If you get real cold, and hard rain, then you need layers and layers and that means actual proper luggage which is a pain to carry

    My problem would be books. I love to read real books, especially if they relate to where I am. But they are heavy

    Izmir has been a revelation. What made me hate it at first is the same reason it is brilliant. Off puttingly ugly so no one bothers, yet actually fascinating, ridiculously cheap (5 star hotel: £60), surrounded by wild coast and superb history and with great public transport. Also, stuffed mussels. And 3 hour direct flights from Luton

    I am going to return and do a piece for the Knappers’ Gazette
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    The right wing press will of course love a Le Pen win just because she’s anti EU but a win for her would be terrible for the UK and the EU .
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    edited April 2022
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Rishi Sunak is about to be overtaken by Tom Tugendhat for second place in the next Tory leader stakes on BE.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.160663234

    Rather ridiculous given Tugendhat is a Remainer unlike Sunak and not even in the Cabinet.

    Wallace should be in the top 3 to succeed Boris alongside Truss and Sunak, not Tugendhat
    Is the Leaver/Remainer thing still a dynamic though? I get the impression that the Tories are now seeing Brexit as something of an embarrassment best forgotten about. (The last strained attempt to make a virtue out of it was the stuff with Rees-Mogg and The Sun but I doubt there'll be any repetition of that - just too silly.)
    Of course it is, given the vast majority of Tory voters let alone Tory members are still strongly pro Brexit and the Brexit deal we have. That will continue to be the case for at least a generation
    The Boris loyalists will still cling to Brexit as their man is inexorably associated with it. But when he's gone I suspect the Tories will start regarding Brexit as something akin to the Poll Tax - an aberration, something to do with early senility and a regime that had lost its way.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    Stodge warned us, Eclair Surf has succumbed to yesterdays injury.😢
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Wow. I had not realized how horrible Everton's line up of opponents until the end of the season. Leicester twice, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal. Hard to see how they get the points to stay up.
  • Stodge warned us, Eclair Surf has succumbed to yesterdays injury.😢

    It is a terrible toll to lose 4 horses and to be honest whipping a horse is barbaric
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Have had no phone reception for the last couple of hours which was a little scary. Luckily my phone map continued showing my position and the route most of the way.

    I stopped for my pistachio nut and beer lunch by a little river called Rec De Sant Miquel. More San Miguel was flowing than Sant Miquel; I didn’t need the bridge!


    Also just realised I’m not going to make it to the French border today. There are no rooms I can find in Portbou, or in Cerbère just over the border, so I’ve got a room in Colera instead tonight and will head for Banyuls-sur-mer in France tomorrow.

    Are you doing this entirely as you go? Ie carrying all your luggage as you hike?

    That’s impressive, if so. Must be quite a rucksack

    I’d love to do a long long walking tour (I love hiking, I love that pleasurable exhaustion at the end of the day, the much earned dinner, the deep deep sleep) what puts me off is lugging all my stuff

    I know holiday companies will do it all for you but it feels a bit like cheating
    Everything is in my rucksack, which was small enough to be Ryanair hand luggage. All I’m carrying is enough underwear and t-shirts for a week, a couple of shirts and my washbag. I’ve got a (vey classy Fortnum & Mason) shopping bag to carry my daily beer and lunch and my phone battery pack. I’ve managed to attach my jacket to my rucksack, which is handy as it won’t fit inside. I expect my one pair of jeans will be able to walk home on their own!
    Cool

    Modern down jackets are brilliant for these reasons. They keep you warm in the cold and dry in the wet, yet they are featherlight, and you can squash them into a daypack if needs be

    You do need a guaranteed run of good weather tho. If you get real cold, and hard rain, then you need layers and layers and that means actual proper luggage which is a pain to carry

    My problem would be books. I love to read real books, especially if they relate to where I am. But they are heavy

    Izmir has been a revelation. What made me hate it at first is the same reason it is brilliant. Off puttingly ugly so no one bothers, yet actually fascinating, ridiculously cheap (5 star hotel: £60), surrounded by wild coast and superb history and with great public transport. Also, stuffed mussels. And 3 hour direct flights from Luton

    I am going to return and do a piece for the Knappers’ Gazette
    Let's hope some other publication does not snipe your piece under a different name.
  • TimT said:

    Wow. I had not realized how horrible Everton's line up of opponents until the end of the season. Leicester twice, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal. Hard to see how they get the points to stay up.

    They need to play united every week !!!!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    nico679 said:

    The right wing press will of course love a Le Pen win just because she’s anti EU but a win for her would be terrible for the UK and the EU .

    Bad for the EU but in what way terrible for the UK?

    Macron is already seriously hostile. I doubt Le Pen would be worse

    And a weakened, bewildered EU is in our favour

    There is the Putin factor, however, if you are referring to that then fair enough
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Rishi Sunak is about to be overtaken by Tom Tugendhat for second place in the next Tory leader stakes on BE.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.160663234

    Rather ridiculous given Tugendhat is a Remainer unlike Sunak and not even in the Cabinet.

    Wallace should be in the top 3 to succeed Boris alongside Truss and Sunak, not Tugendhat
    Is the Leaver/Remainer thing still a dynamic though? I get the impression that the Tories are now seeing Brexit as something of an embarrassment best forgotten about. (The last strained attempt to make a virtue out of it was the stuff with Rees-Mogg and The Sun but I doubt there'll be any repetition of that - just too silly.)
    Of course it is, given the vast majority of Tory voters let alone Tory members are still strongly pro Brexit and the Brexit deal we have. That will continue to be the case for at least a generation
    The Boris loyalists will still cling to Brexit as their man is inexorably associated with it. But when he's gone I suspect the Tories will start regarding Brexit as something akin to the Poll Tax - an aberration, something to do with early senility and a regime that had lost its way.
    I doubt it, remember most Tory voters voted for Brexit even when Cameron was PM. Now some 2015 Tory Remain voters have gone Labour or LD and 2015 UKIP voters have mainly gone Tory, the Tory vote and membership is even more pro Brexit. Boris or no Boris.

    A Labour government might align the UK closer to the EEA again and in time future generations of Tories might accept that but this generation of Tories won't
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    edited April 2022
    nico679 said:

    The right wing press will of course love a Le Pen win just because she’s anti EU but a win for her would be terrible for the UK and the EU .

    I think a Melenchon win would be worse for EU unity because of his Germanophobic streak. He wrote a whole book about the evils of German domination via the EU.

    The Franco-German motor is looking clapped out whoever wins.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    HYUFD said:

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    Read this interview with Karaganov (reliable bellwether of 🇷🇺ruling elite majority consensus).

    If afterwards you still harbor any illusions about sustainable negotiated settlement with Putin's Kremlin on European security order read it again. And again.


    https://twitter.com/thorstenbenner/status/1513039187527806977

    As he says, war with West looks more inevitable as each day goes by.

    Hope to God he is wrong.
    Indeed. Anyone with eyes and honest evidence knows that war with the West is not just unwinnable for Russia, but could only end in rout for them, unless:

    1. The Putinists are very confident that they can mobilize 5th columns to great effect, or they can bring in China on their side (no other ally would make a significant difference), OR
    2. It goes nuclear.
    Given the shocking state of most Russian military kit, how likely are the Russians not to have skimped on nuclear weapon maintenance?
    I think you made a similar point before and it's a very fair one but not desperately comforting.

    Say 90% of their warheads don't work - that still leaves a totally trashed world in the event of them being fired. Especially since the Western retaliation would presumably have to be based on assumption Russian nukes work.
    And the Chinese retaliation if they cannot accurately tell where incoming missiles are aimed.
    Unless Putin fires a nuclear missile at a NATO nation there will be no NATO nuclear weapons fired at Russia and even then only a NATO nuclear response is guaranteed if France, the USA or UK are hit.

    China is on the other side of the world, even if closer to Russia now.
    You keep writing this. Do you think that the more times you write that NATO will only retaliate a strike on a NATO member the truer it becomes.

    Were Russia to strike Finland or Sweden, I have no doubt the narrative changes.
This discussion has been closed.