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France: How the next President market is moving – politicalbetting.com

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,878
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Memo to massively wealthy Tory politicians, don’t give MORE money to already wildly wealthy and super elitist public schools

    I’d give similar advice to Labour politicians of questionable patriotism: don’t support the IRA and hang out with Hamas

    Nah, it's very easy to defend - "I had a brillliant education at Winchester and I've been donating to a scholarship fund to enable kids who weren't as fortunate as I was when growing up to enable them to get the same benefits I had and with our education plan we will ensure that all kids get the same kind of excellent education I was able to receive"

    It doesn't need more than one line.
    Lol. A totally garbled, implausible line as you try to fit so much bollocks into one line
    So you need to abolish the public schools.

    Because your line would end all scholarships and then there would be even more polarisation of educational outcomes. It is surely a drop in the ocean but a non-trivial percentage of these schools' pupils are beneficiaries of such scholarships.

    https://www.etoncollege.com/admissions/scholarships-and-awards/

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eton-scholarship-teenager-poor-area-public-school-father-tesco-work-stephen-geddes-dingle-liverpool-a8094936.html
    That's the first good idea you've had!
    haha absolutely. Abolishing public schools is a perfectly legitimate aim (not one I hold, that said).

    Just that I didn't think @Leon was a fan.
    I don't know, Leon went to a comp and judging by his posts is not a huge fan of the great public schools.

    I don't think he would go as far as closing them however
    It would depend entirely upon the time of day in which this hypothetical decision was made, I guess?
    Yep. I’m in the excellent Skybar of my Izmir hotel and have had one crisp, large gin and tonic. I am at the stage of taking away their charitable status. By 9pm (Turkey time) I expect to call for their total abolition, By 11pm I will demand that they are levelled to the ground with a first strike by the hitherto unknown Mebyon Kernow Force de Frappe, and the ground to be salted with the bottled sweat of six generations of tin miners. Six!! And also for my granny, who was a barefoot bal maiden, breaking rocks for tin aged 10 (true story)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,637
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Memo to massively wealthy Tory politicians, don’t give MORE money to already wildly wealthy and super elitist public schools

    I’d give similar advice to Labour politicians of questionable patriotism: don’t support the IRA and hang out with Hamas

    Nah, it's very easy to defend - "I had a brillliant education at Winchester and I've been donating to a scholarship fund to enable kids who weren't as fortunate as I was when growing up to enable them to get the same benefits I had and with our education plan we will ensure that all kids get the same kind of excellent education I was able to receive"

    It doesn't need more than one line.
    Lol. A totally garbled, implausible line as you try to fit so much bollocks into one line
    But it works because it's aspirational. The Tories are supposed to be the party of aspiration, not holding grudges against rich people.
    Winchester College. Rrright.

    Next he should give £30 million to the Duke of Westminster so he can lower rents on the Grosvenor Estate for his poorer tenants
    The kids his money helped go to Winchester won't care and again, aspiration is what the Tory party are supposed to be in favour. I don't think this really hurts very much at all if they can frame it correctly. If this is an attack by team Boris they may have misjudged the party, which isn't surprising because Boris doesn't really get it.
    Who actually gets these scholarships though? Is it ever a rat-catcher's spawn in hobnail boots and odd socks, or someone who would have traditionally forked out the fees had his ancestor not had to flog off the old manor house for Death Duties in 1965?
    Third time of posting:

    https://www.etoncollege.com/admissions/scholarships-and-awards/

    "Boys who are outstanding academically, who have been educated in the UK state system at primary level and who need financial assistance to attend Eton can be considered for the New Foundation Scholarship. Thanks to the generosity of a donor, this award provides means-tested financial support for up to four boys per year to attend Eton. These boys are identified by the school during the Admissions process. Where necessary, the scholarship will cover 100% fees and extras. We will help families identify the most appropriate pathway for their sons in Years 7 and 8. Boys should be registered in the normal way for 13+ entry by 30 June in UK school Year 5: please contact the Admissions Office if you have any queries."
    'Up to' four boys a year! That's going to give underprivilege a good whacking, isn't it?
    Levelling up, indeed.
    Loving your eyepopping claim that you don't get sex, drink or drugs in state schools, but it does rather torpedo your credibility on the subject of education.
    Pupils at state schools tend to do it extramurally ... not being at boarding schools.
    OK but these are more or less social activities, so presumably school is where they team up? I am not seeing any additional wickedness on the part of the private sector.
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Memo to massively wealthy Tory politicians, don’t give MORE money to already wildly wealthy and super elitist public schools

    I’d give similar advice to Labour politicians of questionable patriotism: don’t support the IRA and hang out with Hamas

    Nah, it's very easy to defend - "I had a brillliant education at Winchester and I've been donating to a scholarship fund to enable kids who weren't as fortunate as I was when growing up to enable them to get the same benefits I had and with our education plan we will ensure that all kids get the same kind of excellent education I was able to receive"

    It doesn't need more than one line.
    Lol. A totally garbled, implausible line as you try to fit so much bollocks into one line
    But it works because it's aspirational. The Tories are supposed to be the party of aspiration, not holding grudges against rich people.
    Winchester College. Rrright.

    Next he should give £30 million to the Duke of Westminster so he can lower rents on the Grosvenor Estate for his poorer tenants
    The kids his money helped go to Winchester won't care and again, aspiration is what the Tory party are supposed to be in favour. I don't think this really hurts very much at all if they can frame it correctly. If this is an attack by team Boris they may have misjudged the party, which isn't surprising because Boris doesn't really get it.
    Who actually gets these scholarships though? Is it ever a rat-catcher's spawn in hobnail boots and odd socks, or someone who would have traditionally forked out the fees had his ancestor not had to flog off the old manor house for Death Duties in 1965?
    Third time of posting:

    https://www.etoncollege.com/admissions/scholarships-and-awards/

    "Boys who are outstanding academically, who have been educated in the UK state system at primary level and who need financial assistance to attend Eton can be considered for the New Foundation Scholarship. Thanks to the generosity of a donor, this award provides means-tested financial support for up to four boys per year to attend Eton. These boys are identified by the school during the Admissions process. Where necessary, the scholarship will cover 100% fees and extras. We will help families identify the most appropriate pathway for their sons in Years 7 and 8. Boys should be registered in the normal way for 13+ entry by 30 June in UK school Year 5: please contact the Admissions Office if you have any queries."
    'Up to' four boys a year! That's going to give underprivilege a good whacking, isn't it?
    Levelling up, indeed.
    Loving your eyepopping claim that you don't get sex, drink or drugs in state schools, but it does rather torpedo your credibility on the subject of education.
    Pupils at state schools tend to do it extramurally ... not being at boarding schools.
    OK but these are more or less social activities, so presumably school is where they team up? I am not seeing any additional wickedness on the part of the private sector.
    Mphm. But they don't (usually) do much of it (whatever it is) on site, if only for timetabling reasons. In a boarding school, the little dears are on site most of the time and commit at least some of their little peccadilloes there. Moreover, the headperson and his staff are in loco parentis. So (a) much more scope for trouble, and that's even before we get to the staff also beign on site more of the time and (b) more formal responsibility for the school staff and management.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,070
    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    What is wrong with that? Winchester is his old school, a top seat of learning and provides scholarships and bursaries the donation will help fund.

    It is his money

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sky-news-tories-b992638.html
    Objectively, it's commendable. Yet it is focussed very much on buttressing the private education system.

    Subjectively, it's a disaster, as it reminds the rest of the UK just how much money the Chancellor has to spare. (And how much tax relief was involved, too?)

    Edit: that last point concerns the amount of tax moneys effectively taken out of the Exchequer and diverted to the private purposes of this, or indeed, any donor.
    Better he spends it on this than 5 star Holidays to the Caribbean and Maldives, Michelin starred meals etc which he easily could.

    Voters who are ideologically opposed to private education generally don't vote Tory anyway
    I'm not so sure. Simply buying luxury items, as opposed to deeply wounding the social cohesion of the country ... and as for your ignoring non-Tory voters as usual, their taxes are being used to buttress such donations in general.
    If its a scholarship awarded to someone not able to afford an elite education, I feel that's a benefit to social mobility.
    That's like saying the national lottery is an engine of social mobility. Sure, if you're the lucky winner.
    And it would be true. Sunak could have helped a lot of children's charities that do great work, but none of them to the degree that a single recipient of their help might one day become Chancellor of the Exchequer. That's important.

    And I say that as someone who thinks he's an empty vessel as a politician.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    What is wrong with that? Winchester is his old school, a top seat of learning and provides scholarships and bursaries the donation will help fund.

    It is his money

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sky-news-tories-b992638.html
    Objectively, it's commendable. Yet it is focussed very much on buttressing the private education system.

    Subjectively, it's a disaster, as it reminds the rest of the UK just how much money the Chancellor has to spare. (And how much tax relief was involved, too?)
    Objectively.. is it?
    Donating money to a cause depends on the worthiness of that cause. Private schools are engines for concentrating the quality of services and delivering them mostly to those who can pay.

    Yes, I know that bursaries exist and the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in, but it's still a system of intentional and intense stratification that benefits the extremely wealthy. It obviously right up HYUFD's street but if you asked me (I know, I know) I could find much better things to do with a spare £100k.
    "...the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in..."

    This is a modern version of the Distressed Gentlefolk* charity. Sure, in theory it's open to anybody but in reality only a very small subset of society, usually with the right connections, would ever have the wherewithal to apply, let alone be successful. It's a sham.

    (*I am probably being unfair to that charity, now sensibly renamed 'Elizabeth Finn Care'.)
    Not so. The recipients of these bursaries are not secret poshos down on their luck, they are the real deal. And quite often getting a shit time from everybody else for their failure to be posh, secretly or otherwise, but that's another story.
    Just exactly how do Winchester, Eton, etc. publicise these bursaries in your average sink estate?
    no idea. Talent scouts?
    Let me help you: They don't.
    Sorry, but they do. You don't, I am not the first to point out, know what you are talking about.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,878

    Leon said:

    Winchester College has £400 MILLION in assets, a figure which has increased by £150 MILLION since 2015

    https://bylinetimes.com/2021/11/25/elite-private-schools-increase-assets-by-more-than-half-a-billion-pounds-in-six-years/

    It earns £27 million a year

    The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is providing over a cost of living crisis that might see people actually go hungry, is worth £500 million, and decided that Winchester College really needed £100,000. Cause they can barely get by, what with being worth £100 million less than him and his wife

    What’s more, he decided this donation was so crucial to Winchester College, which is barely scraping by with its £400 million in assets and £27 million in annual income, he should give this money PUBLICLY, so everyone can see his priorities

    He has been giving this money over the course of 10 years (by 2014, he had given over £25k).....that is what ultra wealthy people do, they give money and get their names on plaques of buildings.

    You can't turn a corner of London without some building, street, monument being named such because somebody once gave some money to charity....
    So he’s a political idiot. What gives. His leadership ambitions are finished
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,122
    Looks like Oryx has got burned-out vehicle burn-out. The totals have barely moved today.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,661
    On the subject of tone-deaf MPs:-

    MPs have claimed £420,000 to heat their second homes since 2019
    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/revealed-mps-claimed-420000-on-expenses-for-their-energy-bills/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,545
    edited April 2022
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Winchester College has £400 MILLION in assets, a figure which has increased by £150 MILLION since 2015

    https://bylinetimes.com/2021/11/25/elite-private-schools-increase-assets-by-more-than-half-a-billion-pounds-in-six-years/

    It earns £27 million a year

    The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is providing over a cost of living crisis that might see people actually go hungry, is worth £500 million, and decided that Winchester College really needed £100,000. Cause they can barely get by, what with being worth £100 million less than him and his wife

    What’s more, he decided this donation was so crucial to Winchester College, which is barely scraping by with its £400 million in assets and £27 million in annual income, he should give this money PUBLICLY, so everyone can see his priorities

    He has been giving this money over the course of 10 years (by 2014, he had given over £25k).....that is what ultra wealthy people do, they give money and get their names on plaques of buildings.

    You can't turn a corner of London without some building, street, monument being named such because somebody once gave some money to charity....
    So he’s a political idiot. What gives. His leadership ambitions are finished
    So you think in 2019 when he became chancellor he should go back through all the charity donations he made and inform them now they must cover up all his donations? Yeah that wouldn't stink if it ever came out. That is the equivalent of those trying to delete all their old tweets, somebody always finds them and you look as dodgy as hell.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,122
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Winchester College has £400 MILLION in assets, a figure which has increased by £150 MILLION since 2015

    https://bylinetimes.com/2021/11/25/elite-private-schools-increase-assets-by-more-than-half-a-billion-pounds-in-six-years/

    It earns £27 million a year

    The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is providing over a cost of living crisis that might see people actually go hungry, is worth £500 million, and decided that Winchester College really needed £100,000. Cause they can barely get by, what with being worth £100 million less than him and his wife

    What’s more, he decided this donation was so crucial to Winchester College, which is barely scraping by with its £400 million in assets and £27 million in annual income, he should give this money PUBLICLY, so everyone can see his priorities

    He has been giving this money over the course of 10 years (by 2014, he had given over £25k).....that is what ultra wealthy people do, they give money and get their names on plaques of buildings.

    You can't turn a corner of London without some building, street, monument being named such because somebody once gave some money to charity....
    So he’s a political idiot. What gives. His leadership ambitions are finished
    Looks like the Tories are going to need an Alan B'Stard..... To out-bastard Boris
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,525
    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Memo to massively wealthy Tory politicians, don’t give MORE money to already wildly wealthy and super elitist public schools

    I’d give similar advice to Labour politicians of questionable patriotism: don’t support the IRA and hang out with Hamas

    Nah, it's very easy to defend - "I had a brillliant education at Winchester and I've been donating to a scholarship fund to enable kids who weren't as fortunate as I was when growing up to enable them to get the same benefits I had and with our education plan we will ensure that all kids get the same kind of excellent education I was able to receive"

    It doesn't need more than one line.
    Lol. A totally garbled, implausible line as you try to fit so much bollocks into one line
    But it works because it's aspirational. The Tories are supposed to be the party of aspiration, not holding grudges against rich people.
    Winchester College. Rrright.

    Next he should give £30 million to the Duke of Westminster so he can lower rents on the Grosvenor Estate for his poorer tenants
    The kids his money helped go to Winchester won't care and again, aspiration is what the Tory party are supposed to be in favour. I don't think this really hurts very much at all if they can frame it correctly. If this is an attack by team Boris they may have misjudged the party, which isn't surprising because Boris doesn't really get it.
    Who actually gets these scholarships though? Is it ever a rat-catcher's spawn in hobnail boots and odd socks, or someone who would have traditionally forked out the fees had his ancestor not had to flog off the old manor house for Death Duties in 1965?
    Third time of posting:

    https://www.etoncollege.com/admissions/scholarships-and-awards/

    "Boys who are outstanding academically, who have been educated in the UK state system at primary level and who need financial assistance to attend Eton can be considered for the New Foundation Scholarship. Thanks to the generosity of a donor, this award provides means-tested financial support for up to four boys per year to attend Eton. These boys are identified by the school during the Admissions process. Where necessary, the scholarship will cover 100% fees and extras. We will help families identify the most appropriate pathway for their sons in Years 7 and 8. Boys should be registered in the normal way for 13+ entry by 30 June in UK school Year 5: please contact the Admissions Office if you have any queries."
    'Up to' four boys a year! That's going to give underprivilege a good whacking, isn't it?
    Levelling up, indeed.
    Loving your eyepopping claim that you don't get sex, drink or drugs in state schools, but it does rather torpedo your credibility on the subject of education.
    You could try, instead of sneering, reading the report I linked to. What went on at Ampleforth is a feature of boarding schools, which are rarely state.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,587
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    If Sunak was going to give money to a private school, he'd have been better off giving it to Ampleforth College, which is in his neighbouring constituency. It was inspected recently by Ofsted and found to be a) a den of iniquity, and b) inadequate. That's private schools for you - a heady mix of drugs, alcohol, sex and "monks of concern".

    You don't get that sort of stuff in the state sector.

    If anybody's interested: https://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/27/121735

    The Ofsted report was of course a load of rubbish. Academically Ampleforth still gets top grade average GCSEs and A levels and provides plenty of extra curricular activities.

    The main concern from Ofsted is the monks live on site with the boys, as they have done for centuries. Yet supposedly this is a major safeguarding issue

    How do you know it's rubbish?
    Because God told him it was rubbish? Seems most logical answer.
    Seriously. I'd like to know what a C of E, erm, supporter such as HYUFD knows about the inner workings of Ampleforth and why he knows the report is 'rubbish'. Divine inspiration is certainfly a logical answer which I hadn't consdiered, though.
    The Ofsted report on Ampleforth won't be rubbish, it will be accurate. Because it's such a high profile school, it will have been pored over from the top to make sure that the evidence is secure. And, of course, Ampleforth could have lodged a complaint if they thought it inaccurate. They didn't.
    Thanks, that's a good and constructive contribution. Was HYUFD correct in claiming Ofsted has no remit in private schools? Or is Ampleforth not a private school somehow?
    Ofsted inspects around half of independent schools; those which belong to Independent Schools Council associations are inspected by the Independent Schools Inspectorate, which is also regulated by the DfE.
    There are powers to order inspections of those, too:
    ...the DfE may commission Ofsted to carry out an inspection of an independent school that is normally inspected by the Independent Schools Inspectorate...
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/memorandum-of-understanding-independent-schools/memorandum-of-understanding-independent-schools
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,738

    Looks like Oryx has got burned-out vehicle burn-out. The totals have barely moved today.

    I wonder if it is a near exponentially-growing task. When you have five photos to compare to see if they're the same vehicle, it is easy. When you have 10,000 photos, plus tens of hours of videos, of thousands of potential vehicles, it becomes much harder.

    Do they give any information on their process? Just logging and storing data must be difficult.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,059
    Even in the 90s Ampleforth had something of reputation in a way that St Peter's or The Mount didn't.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,122

    Looks like Oryx has got burned-out vehicle burn-out. The totals have barely moved today.

    I wonder if it is a near exponentially-growing task. When you have five photos to compare to see if they're the same vehicle, it is easy. When you have 10,000 photos, plus tens of hours of videos, of thousands of potential vehicles, it becomes much harder.

    Do they give any information on their process? Just logging and storing data must be difficult.
    Must be a prime target for Russian hackers too. His efforts are V V Embarrassing for Motherfucker Russia.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,878
    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    What is wrong with that? Winchester is his old school, a top seat of learning and provides scholarships and bursaries the donation will help fund.

    It is his money

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sky-news-tories-b992638.html
    Objectively, it's commendable. Yet it is focussed very much on buttressing the private education system.

    Subjectively, it's a disaster, as it reminds the rest of the UK just how much money the Chancellor has to spare. (And how much tax relief was involved, too?)
    Objectively.. is it?
    Donating money to a cause depends on the worthiness of that cause. Private schools are engines for concentrating the quality of services and delivering them mostly to those who can pay.

    Yes, I know that bursaries exist and the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in, but it's still a system of intentional and intense stratification that benefits the extremely wealthy. It obviously right up HYUFD's street but if you asked me (I know, I know) I could find much better things to do with a spare £100k.
    "...the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in..."

    This is a modern version of the Distressed Gentlefolk* charity. Sure, in theory it's open to anybody but in reality only a very small subset of society, usually with the right connections, would ever have the wherewithal to apply, let alone be successful. It's a sham.

    (*I am probably being unfair to that charity, now sensibly renamed 'Elizabeth Finn Care'.)
    Not so. The recipients of these bursaries are not secret poshos down on their luck, they are the real deal. And quite often getting a shit time from everybody else for their failure to be posh, secretly or otherwise, but that's another story.
    Just exactly how do Winchester, Eton, etc. publicise these bursaries in your average sink estate?
    no idea. Talent scouts?
    Let me help you: They don't.
    Let me help you: you don’t know what you are talking about. Not only do they have very active outreach programmes helping schools and sharing resources they actively promote bursaries and scholarships around the country because funnily enough they actually do want to recruit very bright and able students as it benefits everyone at the school and, if cynical, the reputation of the school when these bright kids get access to places they wouldn’t otherwise and go on to do great things.

    All the major public schools support inner city clubs - Winchester for example supports the Crown and Manor club in London where they arrange exchanges, tutorial help, resources, money and time for kids from some of the shittiest unfortunate backgrounds because funnily enough all public school people aren’t entitled wankers.
    The people aren’t, the institutions are selfish greedy fucks. Winchester is worth 400 million. What the fuck, And they want to be charities? UGH

    Take their charitable status away

    Just one of the many stupidities of what Sunak has done is he has ensured - if this story gains traction (Ukraine might save him) - is that every Tory will now be asked to justify Sunak’s 100k to Winchester. Because he is CoE they will have to defend him, but it will be very awkward, and it will sound like MaxPB’s strangulated nonsense. They won’t thank him for this
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,070
    edited April 2022
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Memo to massively wealthy Tory politicians, don’t give MORE money to already wildly wealthy and super elitist public schools

    I’d give similar advice to Labour politicians of questionable patriotism: don’t support the IRA and hang out with Hamas

    Nah, it's very easy to defend - "I had a brillliant education at Winchester and I've been donating to a scholarship fund to enable kids who weren't as fortunate as I was when growing up to enable them to get the same benefits I had and with our education plan we will ensure that all kids get the same kind of excellent education I was able to receive"

    It doesn't need more than one line.
    Lol. A totally garbled, implausible line as you try to fit so much bollocks into one line
    So you need to abolish the public schools.

    Because your line would end all scholarships and then there would be even more polarisation of educational outcomes. It is surely a drop in the ocean but a non-trivial percentage of these schools' pupils are beneficiaries of such scholarships.

    https://www.etoncollege.com/admissions/scholarships-and-awards/

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eton-scholarship-teenager-poor-area-public-school-father-tesco-work-stephen-geddes-dingle-liverpool-a8094936.html
    That's the first good idea you've had!
    haha absolutely. Abolishing public schools is a perfectly legitimate aim (not one I hold, that said).

    Just that I didn't think @Leon was a fan.
    I don't know, Leon went to a comp and judging by his posts is not a huge fan of the great public schools.

    I don't think he would go as far as closing them however
    It would depend entirely upon the time of day in which this hypothetical decision was made, I guess?
    Yep. I’m in the excellent Skybar of my Izmir hotel and have had one crisp, large gin and tonic. I am at the stage of taking away their charitable status. By 9pm (Turkey time) I expect to call for their total abolition, By 11pm I will demand that they are levelled to the ground with a first strike by the hitherto unknown Mebyon Kernow Force de Frappe, and the ground to be salted with the bottled sweat of six generations of tin miners. Six!! And also for my granny, who was a barefoot bal maiden, breaking rocks for tin aged 10 (true story)
    I think you can allow yourself more than one crisp - you're not that overweight. You're on holiday after all!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,637
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Memo to massively wealthy Tory politicians, don’t give MORE money to already wildly wealthy and super elitist public schools

    I’d give similar advice to Labour politicians of questionable patriotism: don’t support the IRA and hang out with Hamas

    Nah, it's very easy to defend - "I had a brillliant education at Winchester and I've been donating to a scholarship fund to enable kids who weren't as fortunate as I was when growing up to enable them to get the same benefits I had and with our education plan we will ensure that all kids get the same kind of excellent education I was able to receive"

    It doesn't need more than one line.
    Lol. A totally garbled, implausible line as you try to fit so much bollocks into one line
    So you need to abolish the public schools.

    Because your line would end all scholarships and then there would be even more polarisation of educational outcomes. It is surely a drop in the ocean but a non-trivial percentage of these schools' pupils are beneficiaries of such scholarships.

    https://www.etoncollege.com/admissions/scholarships-and-awards/

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eton-scholarship-teenager-poor-area-public-school-father-tesco-work-stephen-geddes-dingle-liverpool-a8094936.html
    That's the first good idea you've had!
    haha absolutely. Abolishing public schools is a perfectly legitimate aim (not one I hold, that said).

    Just that I didn't think @Leon was a fan.
    I don't know, Leon went to a comp and judging by his posts is not a huge fan of the great public schools.

    I don't think he would go as far as closing them however
    It would depend entirely upon the time of day in which this hypothetical decision was made, I guess?
    Yep. I’m in the excellent Skybar of my Izmir hotel and have had one crisp, large gin and tonic. I am at the stage of taking away their charitable status. By 9pm (Turkey time) I expect to call for their total abolition, By 11pm I will demand that they are levelled to the ground with a first strike by the hitherto unknown Mebyon Kernow Force de Frappe, and the ground to be salted with the bottled sweat of six generations of tin miners. Six!! And also for my granny, who was a barefoot bal maiden, breaking rocks for tin aged 10 (true story)
    Granny a bal maiden? Now that really is interesting. Hadn't realised they were still doing it that late; was reading about them during a Cornish visit (two actually). The costume is so revealing - not literally but in the sort of hem above the ankle and almost at the calf muscle which would instantly tell your average Victorian gent this was not a respectable middle class lady but one of the working classes who had to work for a living and keep her skirt from trailing in the muck and broken gossan and gangue and arsenic. Same with Scottish fisherwives and country farmworkers and Welsh countrywomen.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,502
    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    If Sunak was going to give money to a private school, he'd have been better off giving it to Ampleforth College, which is in his neighbouring constituency. It was inspected recently by Ofsted and found to be a) a den of iniquity, and b) inadequate. That's private schools for you - a heady mix of drugs, alcohol, sex and "monks of concern".

    You don't get that sort of stuff in the state sector.

    If anybody's interested: https://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/27/121735

    That is a strange report. The overall rating of Inadequate is due to failings in safeguarding, arising from an incident where kids got drunk at the end of term, and a SEND child had sex. Also, unvetted monks are allowed on the premises unsupervised. The other stuff done by the school is not really discussed, it is just described as good.

    They have to be put on pretty severe notice to sort out the safeguarding issues, but it is not the only element of the school. The inadequate rating seems to be more a reflection on the priorities of the Inspectorate, than the school itself.

    I've been looking at possible independent schooling for my son (albeit on the cheaper side), and read many similar reports - giving an enormous amount of weight and attention to safeguarding where the school has a boarding element.
    It's not the inspectorate's priorities, it's successive governments, following on from the Soham School murders and other abuse cases.

    If Ofsted find safeguarding to be inadequate, then leadership and management and the school as a whole has to be inadequate - because children are not safe. And children's lack of safety trumps the quality of education, which could still be good or even outstanding, in theory. You may not agree with this, but there is a logic to prioritising children's safety. The inadequate judgement also means that the school will be under regular surveillance, in an effort to keep children safe.
    Whilst I appreciate your explanation; I still find it sad.

    Much of the education system appears to be a performance, for the benefit of Ofsted.
    It's for the benefit of Ministers of Education.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,738
    Foss said:

    Even in the 90s Ampleforth had something of reputation in a way that St Peter's or The Mount didn't.

    Boarding schools have a whole raft of safeguarding issues non-boarding schools don't have. You're putting a few hundred young boys and young girls (for most schools are now coeducational) in an environment away from home, at a time when their bodies are changing and they're learning hard lessons about adulthood and life. I was only a day pupil, but there was a certain amount of sex going on, as well as some drugs (oddly, bodybuilding ones).

    There is at state schools as well, but that mostly occurs outside school.
  • Taz said:

    Hundred News....

    But a number of other international players have not been signed. David Warner, Aaron Finch, Chris Gayle and Babar Azam are among those to have missed out.

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/live/cricket/60982426

    How does nobody sign Babar Azam....

    It’s astonishing. He’s a brilliant Player.
    Can we discuss the elephant in the room?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,225
    edited April 2022

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Winchester College has £400 MILLION in assets, a figure which has increased by £150 MILLION since 2015

    https://bylinetimes.com/2021/11/25/elite-private-schools-increase-assets-by-more-than-half-a-billion-pounds-in-six-years/

    It earns £27 million a year

    The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is providing over a cost of living crisis that might see people actually go hungry, is worth £500 million, and decided that Winchester College really needed £100,000. Cause they can barely get by, what with being worth £100 million less than him and his wife

    What’s more, he decided this donation was so crucial to Winchester College, which is barely scraping by with its £400 million in assets and £27 million in annual income, he should give this money PUBLICLY, so everyone can see his priorities

    He has been giving this money over the course of 10 years (by 2014, he had given over £25k).....that is what ultra wealthy people do, they give money and get their names on plaques of buildings.

    You can't turn a corner of London without some building, street, monument being named such because somebody once gave some money to charity....
    So he’s a political idiot. What gives. His leadership ambitions are finished
    Looks like the Tories are going to need an Alan B'Stard..... To out-bastard Boris
    The good news is that the political fallout from the cost of living crisis, helped along by the government’s tax hike (for workers only), will hit Tory performance in the results we’ll all be reviewing in exactly a months’s time, and put the question as to whether our country being led by a dishonest clown is such a great idea, right back at the top of the agenda.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,637
    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    What is wrong with that? Winchester is his old school, a top seat of learning and provides scholarships and bursaries the donation will help fund.

    It is his money

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sky-news-tories-b992638.html
    Objectively, it's commendable. Yet it is focussed very much on buttressing the private education system.

    Subjectively, it's a disaster, as it reminds the rest of the UK just how much money the Chancellor has to spare. (And how much tax relief was involved, too?)
    Objectively.. is it?
    Donating money to a cause depends on the worthiness of that cause. Private schools are engines for concentrating the quality of services and delivering them mostly to those who can pay.

    Yes, I know that bursaries exist and the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in, but it's still a system of intentional and intense stratification that benefits the extremely wealthy. It obviously right up HYUFD's street but if you asked me (I know, I know) I could find much better things to do with a spare £100k.
    "...the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in..."

    This is a modern version of the Distressed Gentlefolk* charity. Sure, in theory it's open to anybody but in reality only a very small subset of society, usually with the right connections, would ever have the wherewithal to apply, let alone be successful. It's a sham.

    (*I am probably being unfair to that charity, now sensibly renamed 'Elizabeth Finn Care'.)
    Not so. The recipients of these bursaries are not secret poshos down on their luck, they are the real deal. And quite often getting a shit time from everybody else for their failure to be posh, secretly or otherwise, but that's another story.
    Just exactly how do Winchester, Eton, etc. publicise these bursaries in your average sink estate?
    no idea. Talent scouts?
    Let me help you: They don't.
    Let me help you: you don’t know what you are talking about. Not only do they have very active outreach programmes helping schools and sharing resources they actively promote bursaries and scholarships around the country because funnily enough they actually do want to recruit very bright and able students as it benefits everyone at the school and, if cynical, the reputation of the school when these bright kids get access to places they wouldn’t otherwise and go on to do great things.

    All the major public schools support inner city clubs - Winchester for example supports the Crown and Manor club in London where they arrange exchanges, tutorial help, resources, money and time for kids from some of the shittiest unfortunate backgrounds because funnily enough all public school people aren’t entitled wankers.
    The people aren’t, the institutions are selfish greedy fucks. Winchester is worth 400 million. What the fuck, And they want to be charities? UGH

    Take their charitable status away

    Just one of the many stupidities of what Sunak has done is he has ensured - if this story gains traction (Ukraine might save him) - is that every Tory will now be asked to justify Sunak’s 100k to Winchester. Because he is CoE they will have to defend him, but it will be very awkward, and it will sound like MaxPB’s strangulated nonsense. They won’t thank him for this
    And a decent interviewer would ask, "but how much extra did Winchester get from tax relief on donations?" The naive answer is 28K ripped out of the mouths of babes and the poor and comprehensives - but if one starts explaining why not, there's no answer that doesn't make it worse (e.g. not paying a penny of income tax at standard rate, if he gives enough to charity, or using the CGT route ...).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,587

    Looks like Oryx has got burned-out vehicle burn-out. The totals have barely moved today.

    No, he's busy writing an article on Russian drones.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,231
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    What is wrong with that? Winchester is his old school, a top seat of learning and provides scholarships and bursaries the donation will help fund.

    It is his money

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sky-news-tories-b992638.html
    Objectively, it's commendable. Yet it is focussed very much on buttressing the private education system.

    Subjectively, it's a disaster, as it reminds the rest of the UK just how much money the Chancellor has to spare. (And how much tax relief was involved, too?)

    Edit: that last point concerns the amount of tax moneys effectively taken out of the Exchequer and diverted to the private purposes of this, or indeed, any donor.
    Better he spends it on this than 5 star Holidays to the Caribbean and Maldives, Michelin starred meals etc which he easily could.

    Voters who are ideologically opposed to private education generally don't vote Tory anyway
    I'm not so sure. Simply buying luxury items, as opposed to deeply wounding the social cohesion of the country ... and as for your ignoring non-Tory voters as usual, their taxes are being used to buttress such donations in general.
    Case made, you are an ideological anti Tory voter who thinks private education is 'deeply wounding to the social cohesion of the country'.

    Whereas Tories believe in parental choice
    @HYUFD I am often more sympathetic to you than most, but this is idiotic from Sunak. Winchester College is already insanely wealthy. He should have just given the money straight to Prince Andrew, who does so much good work with impoverished young women

    That’s about the level of crassness. A man so lacking in basic political judgement should never be allowed to lead

    Go long on Truss or Mordaunt
    Mordaunt - the one who not only organised the cringe-worthy (and technically law-breaking) ‘Leadsom for Leader’ March on Wesminster, but who actually came up with the idea in the first place?
    Penny looks OK :)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,587
    Foss said:

    Even in the 90s Ampleforth had something of reputation in a way that St Peter's or The Mount didn't.

    And the 70s and 80s
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,590
    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    What is wrong with that? Winchester is his old school, a top seat of learning and provides scholarships and bursaries the donation will help fund.

    It is his money

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sky-news-tories-b992638.html
    Objectively, it's commendable. Yet it is focussed very much on buttressing the private education system.

    Subjectively, it's a disaster, as it reminds the rest of the UK just how much money the Chancellor has to spare. (And how much tax relief was involved, too?)
    Objectively.. is it?
    Donating money to a cause depends on the worthiness of that cause. Private schools are engines for concentrating the quality of services and delivering them mostly to those who can pay.

    Yes, I know that bursaries exist and the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in, but it's still a system of intentional and intense stratification that benefits the extremely wealthy. It obviously right up HYUFD's street but if you asked me (I know, I know) I could find much better things to do with a spare £100k.
    "...the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in..."

    This is a modern version of the Distressed Gentlefolk* charity. Sure, in theory it's open to anybody but in reality only a very small subset of society, usually with the right connections, would ever have the wherewithal to apply, let alone be successful. It's a sham.

    (*I am probably being unfair to that charity, now sensibly renamed 'Elizabeth Finn Care'.)
    Not so. The recipients of these bursaries are not secret poshos down on their luck, they are the real deal. And quite often getting a shit time from everybody else for their failure to be posh, secretly or otherwise, but that's another story.
    Just exactly how do Winchester, Eton, etc. publicise these bursaries in your average sink estate?
    no idea. Talent scouts?
    Let me help you: They don't.
    Let me help you: you don’t know what you are talking about. Not only do they have very active outreach programmes helping schools and sharing resources they actively promote bursaries and scholarships around the country because funnily enough they actually do want to recruit very bright and able students as it benefits everyone at the school and, if cynical, the reputation of the school when these bright kids get access to places they wouldn’t otherwise and go on to do great things.

    All the major public schools support inner city clubs - Winchester for example supports the Crown and Manor club in London where they arrange exchanges, tutorial help, resources, money and time for kids from some of the shittiest unfortunate backgrounds because funnily enough all public school people aren’t entitled wankers.
    The people aren’t, the institutions are selfish greedy fucks. Winchester is worth 400 million. What the fuck, And they want to be charities? UGH

    Take their charitable status away

    Just one of the many stupidities of what Sunak has done is he has ensured - if this story gains traction (Ukraine might save him) - is that every Tory will now be asked to justify Sunak’s 100k to Winchester. Because he is CoE they will have to defend him, but it will be very awkward, and it will sound like MaxPB’s strangulated nonsense. They won’t thank him for this
    Out of interest what do you think places like Winchester spend the income from their endowments on?

    Here’s a little helper to get you going, it’s not on Super Yachts.

    Maybe look in the direction of the crazy array of listed buildings which cost millions to upkeep each year. Now I’m sure if they are abolished the govt will happily spend the same money rather than lose those listed buildings but then everyone will be complaining that’s a waste of money I imagine.

    Maybe look at the manuscripts such as Harmar’s work for the King James Bible which he did at Winchester which has to be preserved and insured as just one example.

    Or do we seize these items from their legal owners - imagine the govt taking your manuscripts away from you…..

    Please do explain though what it’s spent on because with 650 odd students paying around 45k a year it’s still not pissing the money up the wall on parties and gin.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Foss said:

    Even in the 90s Ampleforth had something of reputation in a way that St Peter's or The Mount didn't.

    I love the nuanced insiderdom of that post. I have no idea where or what those places are.

    People I know who were at Ampleforth in the 70s did a lorra psychedelics there.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,335
    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    What is wrong with that? Winchester is his old school, a top seat of learning and provides scholarships and bursaries the donation will help fund.

    It is his money

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sky-news-tories-b992638.html
    Objectively, it's commendable. Yet it is focussed very much on buttressing the private education system.

    Subjectively, it's a disaster, as it reminds the rest of the UK just how much money the Chancellor has to spare. (And how much tax relief was involved, too?)
    Objectively.. is it?
    Donating money to a cause depends on the worthiness of that cause. Private schools are engines for concentrating the quality of services and delivering them mostly to those who can pay.

    Yes, I know that bursaries exist and the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in, but it's still a system of intentional and intense stratification that benefits the extremely wealthy. It obviously right up HYUFD's street but if you asked me (I know, I know) I could find much better things to do with a spare £100k.
    "...the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in..."

    This is a modern version of the Distressed Gentlefolk* charity. Sure, in theory it's open to anybody but in reality only a very small subset of society, usually with the right connections, would ever have the wherewithal to apply, let alone be successful. It's a sham.

    (*I am probably being unfair to that charity, now sensibly renamed 'Elizabeth Finn Care'.)
    Not so. The recipients of these bursaries are not secret poshos down on their luck, they are the real deal. And quite often getting a shit time from everybody else for their failure to be posh, secretly or otherwise, but that's another story.
    Just exactly how do Winchester, Eton, etc. publicise these bursaries in your average sink estate?
    no idea. Talent scouts?
    Let me help you: They don't.
    Let me help you: you don’t know what you are talking about. Not only do they have very active outreach programmes helping schools and sharing resources they actively promote bursaries and scholarships around the country because funnily enough they actually do want to recruit very bright and able students as it benefits everyone at the school and, if cynical, the reputation of the school when these bright kids get access to places they wouldn’t otherwise and go on to do great things.

    All the major public schools support inner city clubs - Winchester for example supports the Crown and Manor club in London where they arrange exchanges, tutorial help, resources, money and time for kids from some of the shittiest unfortunate backgrounds because funnily enough all public school people aren’t entitled wankers.
    The people aren’t, the institutions are selfish greedy fucks. Winchester is worth 400 million. What the fuck, And they want to be charities? UGH

    Take their charitable status away

    Just one of the many stupidities of what Sunak has done is he has ensured - if this story gains traction (Ukraine might save him) - is that every Tory will now be asked to justify Sunak’s 100k to Winchester. Because he is CoE they will have to defend him, but it will be very awkward, and it will sound like MaxPB’s strangulated nonsense. They won’t thank him for this
    That charitable status helps them fund scholarships and bursaries and providing sports and arts facilities to share with the local community too
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,059
    IshmaelZ said:

    Foss said:

    Even in the 90s Ampleforth had something of reputation in a way that St Peter's or The Mount didn't.

    I love the nuanced insiderdom of that post. I have no idea where or what those places are.

    People I know who were at Ampleforth in the 70s did a lorra psychedelics there.
    All greater York private school with boarding elements. I attended none of them.

    Signed,

    A Pleb.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,587
    IshmaelZ said:

    Foss said:

    Even in the 90s Ampleforth had something of reputation in a way that St Peter's or The Mount didn't.

    I love the nuanced insiderdom of that post. I have no idea where or what those places are.

    People I know who were at Ampleforth in the 70s did a lorra psychedelics there.
    Independent boarding schools also near York.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,335

    Leon said:

    Winchester College has £400 MILLION in assets, a figure which has increased by £150 MILLION since 2015

    https://bylinetimes.com/2021/11/25/elite-private-schools-increase-assets-by-more-than-half-a-billion-pounds-in-six-years/

    It earns £27 million a year

    The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is providing over a cost of living crisis that might see people actually go hungry, is worth £500 million, and decided that Winchester College really needed £100,000. Cause they can barely get by, what with being worth £100 million less than him and his wife

    What’s more, he decided this donation was so crucial to Winchester College, which is barely scraping by with its £400 million in assets and £27 million in annual income, he should give this money PUBLICLY, so everyone can see his priorities

    He has been giving this money over the course of 10 years (by 2014, he had given over £25k).....that is what ultra wealthy people do, they give money and get their names on plaques of buildings.

    You can't turn a corner of London without some building, street, monument being named such because somebody once gave some money to charity....
    If Boris had a spare £100k like Rishi, you could be sure he wouldn't be giving it to Eton's scholarship fund but having a huge party of debauchery. Yet Rishi gets the flack
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,231

    Fun fact, in Hindi Rishi means 'Tone deaf PR skills' and Sunak means 'Indian heritage David Miliband but without the political nous'

    Fun fact: Hindi and Urdu are two, shall we say "sectarian", versions of the same language called Hindustani.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindustani_language

  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,878
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Memo to massively wealthy Tory politicians, don’t give MORE money to already wildly wealthy and super elitist public schools

    I’d give similar advice to Labour politicians of questionable patriotism: don’t support the IRA and hang out with Hamas

    Nah, it's very easy to defend - "I had a brillliant education at Winchester and I've been donating to a scholarship fund to enable kids who weren't as fortunate as I was when growing up to enable them to get the same benefits I had and with our education plan we will ensure that all kids get the same kind of excellent education I was able to receive"

    It doesn't need more than one line.
    Lol. A totally garbled, implausible line as you try to fit so much bollocks into one line
    So you need to abolish the public schools.

    Because your line would end all scholarships and then there would be even more polarisation of educational outcomes. It is surely a drop in the ocean but a non-trivial percentage of these schools' pupils are beneficiaries of such scholarships.

    https://www.etoncollege.com/admissions/scholarships-and-awards/

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eton-scholarship-teenager-poor-area-public-school-father-tesco-work-stephen-geddes-dingle-liverpool-a8094936.html
    That's the first good idea you've had!
    haha absolutely. Abolishing public schools is a perfectly legitimate aim (not one I hold, that said).

    Just that I didn't think @Leon was a fan.
    I don't know, Leon went to a comp and judging by his posts is not a huge fan of the great public schools.

    I don't think he would go as far as closing them however
    It would depend entirely upon the time of day in which this hypothetical decision was made, I guess?
    Yep. I’m in the excellent Skybar of my Izmir hotel and have had one crisp, large gin and tonic. I am at the stage of taking away their charitable status. By 9pm (Turkey time) I expect to call for their total abolition, By 11pm I will demand that they are levelled to the ground with a first strike by the hitherto unknown Mebyon Kernow Force de Frappe, and the ground to be salted with the bottled sweat of six generations of tin miners. Six!! And also for my granny, who was a barefoot bal maiden, breaking rocks for tin aged 10 (true story)
    Granny a bal maiden? Now that really is interesting. Hadn't realised they were still doing it that late; was reading about them during a Cornish visit (two actually). The costume is so revealing - not literally but in the sort of hem above the ankle and almost at the calf muscle which would instantly tell your average Victorian gent this was not a respectable middle class lady but one of the working classes who had to work for a living and keep her skirt from trailing in the muck and broken gossan and gangue and arsenic. Same with Scottish fisherwives and country farmworkers and Welsh countrywomen.
    Yep, my mum’s mum, Annie

    She was a bal maiden in St Agnes on the cliffs, Barefoot, breaking rocks, all weathers. Before WW1

    One of the reasons (IIRC) it persisted so late in Cornwall is because the legislation against child labour in mines was specifically aimed at boys. The London legislators didn’t realise Cornish girls were pressed into toil up at grass, so the mine owners exploited the loophole

    She escaped in her teens, got wed, had eight kids, and died in her early 60s, worn out by motherhood or the early slavery, or both. So I never met her

    My lord, what would she think of me, her grandson, sitting in a bar in Izmir tapping out my twaddle on my iPad. What an unimaginable distance in human experience

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,637
    Foss said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foss said:

    Even in the 90s Ampleforth had something of reputation in a way that St Peter's or The Mount didn't.

    I love the nuanced insiderdom of that post. I have no idea where or what those places are.

    People I know who were at Ampleforth in the 70s did a lorra psychedelics there.
    All greater York private school with boarding elements. I attended none of them.

    Signed,

    A Pleb.

    The Mount is a Quaker operation. St Peter's, erm, claims to be "The fourth oldest school in the world, founded by St Paulinus of York in AD 627." At that sort of timing it sounds more of a question of whether St P's is a Monophysite or Nestorian establishment than a C of E or RC one ...
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,577

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    "The donations fund bursaries for children whose parents would not otherwise be able to send them there."

    I would have thought as a Conservative leaning voter you would be board with rich people donating so those fortunate can have access to top level education?
    The problem is that it adds to the narrative that he ignored those in need in his widely criticised budget then gives £100,000 to a private school
    TBH I suspect this was done by a flunky in his family office. It would have been on a list somewhere but I suspect he paid no attention to it.
  • Have collected a curry from a local to my MIL's takeaway. They have done a big mail out of their menu with a money off voucher. For cash only transactions.

    I was a wee bit suspicious. When collecting (and paying by card) the guy was quite happy to tell me why the discount is cash only.

    Because if it's a card payment and they give the discount there isn't much left after they pay VAT. So they're not paying VAT on cash orders. Which means they're not putting them through the books. Not paying Corporation Tax.

    Dumb bastards really shouldn't be telling their customers that, they have no idea who might want to shop them for tax evasion...
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,059
    Carnyx said:

    Foss said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foss said:

    Even in the 90s Ampleforth had something of reputation in a way that St Peter's or The Mount didn't.

    I love the nuanced insiderdom of that post. I have no idea where or what those places are.

    People I know who were at Ampleforth in the 70s did a lorra psychedelics there.
    All greater York private school with boarding elements. I attended none of them.

    Signed,

    A Pleb.

    The Mount is a Quaker operation. St Peter's, erm, claims to be "The fourth oldest school in the world, founded by St Paulinus of York in AD 627." At that sort of timing it sounds more of a question of whether St P's is a Monophysite or Nestorian establishment than a C of E or RC one ...
    St Peter's bigger claim to fame is it's links to Guy Fawkes.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,545
    edited April 2022
    To the Russian people, look at what is being done in your name. You deserve the truth. You deserve the facts.
    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1511388515787055115?s=20&t=p7mm9OKrpkFYOfHaP1MIXA

    Boris PR department has clearly had an upgrade (or perhaps they aren't constantly pissed). His COVID statements were nowhere near as good as this. He actually sounds like a world leader should.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,237
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Winchester College has £400 MILLION in assets, a figure which has increased by £150 MILLION since 2015

    https://bylinetimes.com/2021/11/25/elite-private-schools-increase-assets-by-more-than-half-a-billion-pounds-in-six-years/

    It earns £27 million a year

    The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is providing over a cost of living crisis that might see people actually go hungry, is worth £500 million, and decided that Winchester College really needed £100,000. Cause they can barely get by, what with being worth £100 million less than him and his wife

    What’s more, he decided this donation was so crucial to Winchester College, which is barely scraping by with its £400 million in assets and £27 million in annual income, he should give this money PUBLICLY, so everyone can see his priorities

    He has been giving this money over the course of 10 years (by 2014, he had given over £25k).....that is what ultra wealthy people do, they give money and get their names on plaques of buildings.

    You can't turn a corner of London without some building, street, monument being named such because somebody once gave some money to charity....
    If Boris had a spare £100k like Rishi, you could be sure he wouldn't be giving it to Eton's scholarship fund but having a huge party of debauchery. Yet Rishi gets the flack
    I suspect Boris does have quite a few spare £100k lying around despite his pleas of poverty, but simply prefers to get other people to pay for his many parties of debauchery.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,878
    edited April 2022
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Winchester College has £400 MILLION in assets, a figure which has increased by £150 MILLION since 2015

    https://bylinetimes.com/2021/11/25/elite-private-schools-increase-assets-by-more-than-half-a-billion-pounds-in-six-years/

    It earns £27 million a year

    The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is providing over a cost of living crisis that might see people actually go hungry, is worth £500 million, and decided that Winchester College really needed £100,000. Cause they can barely get by, what with being worth £100 million less than him and his wife

    What’s more, he decided this donation was so crucial to Winchester College, which is barely scraping by with its £400 million in assets and £27 million in annual income, he should give this money PUBLICLY, so everyone can see his priorities

    He has been giving this money over the course of 10 years (by 2014, he had given over £25k).....that is what ultra wealthy people do, they give money and get their names on plaques of buildings.

    You can't turn a corner of London without some building, street, monument being named such because somebody once gave some money to charity....
    If Boris had a spare £100k like Rishi, you could be sure he wouldn't be giving it to Eton's scholarship fund but having a huge party of debauchery. Yet Rishi gets the flack
    Because Sunak wanted the warm glow of praise that comes from publicly giving to charity, and now this has come back to haunt him

    I believe there is a Biblical parable with some relevance here
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,970
    edited April 2022
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    What is wrong with that? Winchester is his old school, a top seat of learning and provides scholarships and bursaries the donation will help fund.

    It is his money

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sky-news-tories-b992638.html
    Objectively, it's commendable. Yet it is focussed very much on buttressing the private education system.

    Subjectively, it's a disaster, as it reminds the rest of the UK just how much money the Chancellor has to spare. (And how much tax relief was involved, too?)
    Objectively.. is it?
    Donating money to a cause depends on the worthiness of that cause. Private schools are engines for concentrating the quality of services and delivering them mostly to those who can pay.

    Yes, I know that bursaries exist and the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in, but it's still a system of intentional and intense stratification that benefits the extremely wealthy. It obviously right up HYUFD's street but if you asked me (I know, I know) I could find much better things to do with a spare £100k.
    "...the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in..."

    This is a modern version of the Distressed Gentlefolk* charity. Sure, in theory it's open to anybody but in reality only a very small subset of society, usually with the right connections, would ever have the wherewithal to apply, let alone be successful. It's a sham.

    (*I am probably being unfair to that charity, now sensibly renamed 'Elizabeth Finn Care'.)
    Not so. The recipients of these bursaries are not secret poshos down on their luck, they are the real deal. And quite often getting a shit time from everybody else for their failure to be posh, secretly or otherwise, but that's another story.
    Just exactly how do Winchester, Eton, etc. publicise these bursaries in your average sink estate?
    no idea. Talent scouts?
    Let me help you: They don't.
    Let me help you: you don’t know what you are talking about. Not only do they have very active outreach programmes helping schools and sharing resources they actively promote bursaries and scholarships around the country because funnily enough they actually do want to recruit very bright and able students as it benefits everyone at the school and, if cynical, the reputation of the school when these bright kids get access to places they wouldn’t otherwise and go on to do great things.

    All the major public schools support inner city clubs - Winchester for example supports the Crown and Manor club in London where they arrange exchanges, tutorial help, resources, money and time for kids from some of the shittiest unfortunate backgrounds because funnily enough all public school people aren’t entitled wankers.
    The people aren’t, the institutions are selfish greedy fucks. Winchester is worth 400 million. What the fuck, And they want to be charities? UGH

    Take their charitable status away

    Just one of the many stupidities of what Sunak has done is he has ensured - if this story gains traction (Ukraine might save him) - is that every Tory will now be asked to justify Sunak’s 100k to Winchester. Because he is CoE they will have to defend him, but it will be very awkward, and it will sound like MaxPB’s strangulated nonsense. They won’t thank him for this
    That charitable status helps them fund scholarships and bursaries and providing sports and arts facilities to share with the local community too
    I think you've put the cart before the horse there. As a retired teacher from the independent sector I was aware that the charitable status had been around for many years before the advent of large numbers of scholarships. The development of scholarships etc appeared as a way championed by ISI to justify and retain the charitable status already in place. The main reason for the charitable status was to be let off paying the rates, which was usually enormous. The school still had to pay VAT on the usual items.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    What is wrong with that? Winchester is his old school, a top seat of learning and provides scholarships and bursaries the donation will help fund.

    It is his money

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sky-news-tories-b992638.html
    Objectively, it's commendable. Yet it is focussed very much on buttressing the private education system.

    Subjectively, it's a disaster, as it reminds the rest of the UK just how much money the Chancellor has to spare. (And how much tax relief was involved, too?)
    Objectively.. is it?
    Donating money to a cause depends on the worthiness of that cause. Private schools are engines for concentrating the quality of services and delivering them mostly to those who can pay.

    Yes, I know that bursaries exist and the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in, but it's still a system of intentional and intense stratification that benefits the extremely wealthy. It obviously right up HYUFD's street but if you asked me (I know, I know) I could find much better things to do with a spare £100k.
    "...the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in..."

    This is a modern version of the Distressed Gentlefolk* charity. Sure, in theory it's open to anybody but in reality only a very small subset of society, usually with the right connections, would ever have the wherewithal to apply, let alone be successful. It's a sham.

    (*I am probably being unfair to that charity, now sensibly renamed 'Elizabeth Finn Care'.)
    Not so. The recipients of these bursaries are not secret poshos down on their luck, they are the real deal. And quite often getting a shit time from everybody else for their failure to be posh, secretly or otherwise, but that's another story.
    Just exactly how do Winchester, Eton, etc. publicise these bursaries in your average sink estate?
    no idea. Talent scouts?
    Let me help you: They don't.
    Let me help you: you don’t know what you are talking about. Not only do they have very active outreach programmes helping schools and sharing resources they actively promote bursaries and scholarships around the country because funnily enough they actually do want to recruit very bright and able students as it benefits everyone at the school and, if cynical, the reputation of the school when these bright kids get access to places they wouldn’t otherwise and go on to do great things.

    All the major public schools support inner city clubs - Winchester for example supports the Crown and Manor club in London where they arrange exchanges, tutorial help, resources, money and time for kids from some of the shittiest unfortunate backgrounds because funnily enough all public school people aren’t entitled wankers.
    The people aren’t, the institutions are selfish greedy fucks. Winchester is worth 400 million. What the fuck, And they want to be charities? UGH

    Take their charitable status away

    Just one of the many stupidities of what Sunak has done is he has ensured - if this story gains traction (Ukraine might save him) - is that every Tory will now be asked to justify Sunak’s 100k to Winchester. Because he is CoE they will have to defend him, but it will be very awkward, and it will sound like MaxPB’s strangulated nonsense. They won’t thank him for this
    That charitable status helps them fund scholarships and bursaries and providing sports and arts facilities to share with the local community too
    You've got it the wrong way round. They make those token efforts only because it gives them a fig leaf to help them ward off calls for their charitable status to be ended.

    Although Sunak's £100k will have gone a long way to resurrecting the salience of the issue of the charitable status of public schools, so they might come to regret it in a couple of years or so.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,637
    Foss said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foss said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foss said:

    Even in the 90s Ampleforth had something of reputation in a way that St Peter's or The Mount didn't.

    I love the nuanced insiderdom of that post. I have no idea where or what those places are.

    People I know who were at Ampleforth in the 70s did a lorra psychedelics there.
    All greater York private school with boarding elements. I attended none of them.

    Signed,

    A Pleb.

    The Mount is a Quaker operation. St Peter's, erm, claims to be "The fourth oldest school in the world, founded by St Paulinus of York in AD 627." At that sort of timing it sounds more of a question of whether St P's is a Monophysite or Nestorian establishment than a C of E or RC one ...
    St Peter's bigger claim to fame is it's links to Guy Fawkes.
    The Prevent system didn't work very well.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,878

    To the Russian people, look at what is being done in your name. You deserve the truth. You deserve the facts.
    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1511388515787055115?s=20&t=p7mm9OKrpkFYOfHaP1MIXA

    Boris PR department has clearly had an upgrade (or perhaps they aren't constantly pissed). His COVID statements were nowhere near as good as this. He actually sounds like a world leader should.

    Also, the brilliant hit job on Sunak (this Winchester thing has to be the calculated blow of an assassin) suggests Boris has got someone in his team with a bit of the old Dom C mojo
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,225
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Memo to massively wealthy Tory politicians, don’t give MORE money to already wildly wealthy and super elitist public schools

    I’d give similar advice to Labour politicians of questionable patriotism: don’t support the IRA and hang out with Hamas

    Nah, it's very easy to defend - "I had a brillliant education at Winchester and I've been donating to a scholarship fund to enable kids who weren't as fortunate as I was when growing up to enable them to get the same benefits I had and with our education plan we will ensure that all kids get the same kind of excellent education I was able to receive"

    It doesn't need more than one line.
    Lol. A totally garbled, implausible line as you try to fit so much bollocks into one line
    So you need to abolish the public schools.

    Because your line would end all scholarships and then there would be even more polarisation of educational outcomes. It is surely a drop in the ocean but a non-trivial percentage of these schools' pupils are beneficiaries of such scholarships.

    https://www.etoncollege.com/admissions/scholarships-and-awards/

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eton-scholarship-teenager-poor-area-public-school-father-tesco-work-stephen-geddes-dingle-liverpool-a8094936.html
    That's the first good idea you've had!
    haha absolutely. Abolishing public schools is a perfectly legitimate aim (not one I hold, that said).

    Just that I didn't think @Leon was a fan.
    I don't know, Leon went to a comp and judging by his posts is not a huge fan of the great public schools.

    I don't think he would go as far as closing them however
    It would depend entirely upon the time of day in which this hypothetical decision was made, I guess?
    Yep. I’m in the excellent Skybar of my Izmir hotel and have had one crisp, large gin and tonic. I am at the stage of taking away their charitable status. By 9pm (Turkey time) I expect to call for their total abolition, By 11pm I will demand that they are levelled to the ground with a first strike by the hitherto unknown Mebyon Kernow Force de Frappe, and the ground to be salted with the bottled sweat of six generations of tin miners. Six!! And also for my granny, who was a barefoot bal maiden, breaking rocks for tin aged 10 (true story)
    Granny a bal maiden? Now that really is interesting. Hadn't realised they were still doing it that late; was reading about them during a Cornish visit (two actually). The costume is so revealing - not literally but in the sort of hem above the ankle and almost at the calf muscle which would instantly tell your average Victorian gent this was not a respectable middle class lady but one of the working classes who had to work for a living and keep her skirt from trailing in the muck and broken gossan and gangue and arsenic. Same with Scottish fisherwives and country farmworkers and Welsh countrywomen.
    Yep, my mum’s mum, Annie

    She was a bal maiden in St Agnes on the cliffs, Barefoot, breaking rocks, all weathers. Before WW1

    One of the reasons (IIRC) it persisted so late in Cornwall is because the legislation against child labour in mines was specifically aimed at boys. The London legislators didn’t realise Cornish girls were pressed into toil up at grass, so the mine owners exploited the loophole

    She escaped in her teens, got wed, had eight kids, and died in her early 60s, worn out by motherhood or the early slavery, or both. So I never met her

    My lord, what would she think of me, her grandson, sitting in a bar in Izmir tapping out my twaddle on my iPad. What an unimaginable distance in human experience

    She’d wonder how the family had ever come to sink so far.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Winchester College has £400 MILLION in assets, a figure which has increased by £150 MILLION since 2015

    https://bylinetimes.com/2021/11/25/elite-private-schools-increase-assets-by-more-than-half-a-billion-pounds-in-six-years/

    It earns £27 million a year

    The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is providing over a cost of living crisis that might see people actually go hungry, is worth £500 million, and decided that Winchester College really needed £100,000. Cause they can barely get by, what with being worth £100 million less than him and his wife

    What’s more, he decided this donation was so crucial to Winchester College, which is barely scraping by with its £400 million in assets and £27 million in annual income, he should give this money PUBLICLY, so everyone can see his priorities

    He has been giving this money over the course of 10 years (by 2014, he had given over £25k).....that is what ultra wealthy people do, they give money and get their names on plaques of buildings.

    You can't turn a corner of London without some building, street, monument being named such because somebody once gave some money to charity....
    If Boris had a spare £100k like Rishi, you could be sure he wouldn't be giving it to Eton's scholarship fund but having a huge party of debauchery. Yet Rishi gets the flack
    Because he wanted the warm praise that comes from publicly giving to charity, and now this has come back to haunt him

    I believe there is a Biblical parable with some relevance here
    It was pretty low key giving. he doesn't even put MP after his name, and I challenge you to find a more obscure journal to publicise yourself in, it makes the Flint Knapper's Quarterly look like the News of the World. Not that I mind what happens to him, but this was pure bad luck compounded by pure malice.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,637

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    What is wrong with that? Winchester is his old school, a top seat of learning and provides scholarships and bursaries the donation will help fund.

    It is his money

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sky-news-tories-b992638.html
    Objectively, it's commendable. Yet it is focussed very much on buttressing the private education system.

    Subjectively, it's a disaster, as it reminds the rest of the UK just how much money the Chancellor has to spare. (And how much tax relief was involved, too?)
    Objectively.. is it?
    Donating money to a cause depends on the worthiness of that cause. Private schools are engines for concentrating the quality of services and delivering them mostly to those who can pay.

    Yes, I know that bursaries exist and the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in, but it's still a system of intentional and intense stratification that benefits the extremely wealthy. It obviously right up HYUFD's street but if you asked me (I know, I know) I could find much better things to do with a spare £100k.
    "...the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in..."

    This is a modern version of the Distressed Gentlefolk* charity. Sure, in theory it's open to anybody but in reality only a very small subset of society, usually with the right connections, would ever have the wherewithal to apply, let alone be successful. It's a sham.

    (*I am probably being unfair to that charity, now sensibly renamed 'Elizabeth Finn Care'.)
    Not so. The recipients of these bursaries are not secret poshos down on their luck, they are the real deal. And quite often getting a shit time from everybody else for their failure to be posh, secretly or otherwise, but that's another story.
    Just exactly how do Winchester, Eton, etc. publicise these bursaries in your average sink estate?
    no idea. Talent scouts?
    Let me help you: They don't.
    Let me help you: you don’t know what you are talking about. Not only do they have very active outreach programmes helping schools and sharing resources they actively promote bursaries and scholarships around the country because funnily enough they actually do want to recruit very bright and able students as it benefits everyone at the school and, if cynical, the reputation of the school when these bright kids get access to places they wouldn’t otherwise and go on to do great things.

    All the major public schools support inner city clubs - Winchester for example supports the Crown and Manor club in London where they arrange exchanges, tutorial help, resources, money and time for kids from some of the shittiest unfortunate backgrounds because funnily enough all public school people aren’t entitled wankers.
    The people aren’t, the institutions are selfish greedy fucks. Winchester is worth 400 million. What the fuck, And they want to be charities? UGH

    Take their charitable status away

    Just one of the many stupidities of what Sunak has done is he has ensured - if this story gains traction (Ukraine might save him) - is that every Tory will now be asked to justify Sunak’s 100k to Winchester. Because he is CoE they will have to defend him, but it will be very awkward, and it will sound like MaxPB’s strangulated nonsense. They won’t thank him for this
    That charitable status helps them fund scholarships and bursaries and providing sports and arts facilities to share with the local community too
    I think you've put the cart before the horse there. As a retired teacher from the independent sector I was aware that the charitable status had been around for many years before the advent of large numbers of scholarships. The development of scholarships etc appeared as a way championed by ISI to justify and retain the charitable status already in place. The main reason for the charitable status was to be let off paying the rates, which was usually enormous. The school still had to pay VAT on the usual items.
    Rate relief has been abolished for private schools in Scotland - came into force this month AIUI. Now treated the same as state schools in that respect.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,545
    edited April 2022
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Winchester College has £400 MILLION in assets, a figure which has increased by £150 MILLION since 2015

    https://bylinetimes.com/2021/11/25/elite-private-schools-increase-assets-by-more-than-half-a-billion-pounds-in-six-years/

    It earns £27 million a year

    The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is providing over a cost of living crisis that might see people actually go hungry, is worth £500 million, and decided that Winchester College really needed £100,000. Cause they can barely get by, what with being worth £100 million less than him and his wife

    What’s more, he decided this donation was so crucial to Winchester College, which is barely scraping by with its £400 million in assets and £27 million in annual income, he should give this money PUBLICLY, so everyone can see his priorities

    He has been giving this money over the course of 10 years (by 2014, he had given over £25k).....that is what ultra wealthy people do, they give money and get their names on plaques of buildings.

    You can't turn a corner of London without some building, street, monument being named such because somebody once gave some money to charity....
    If Boris had a spare £100k like Rishi, you could be sure he wouldn't be giving it to Eton's scholarship fund but having a huge party of debauchery. Yet Rishi gets the flack
    Because Sunak wanted the warm glow of praise that comes from publicly giving to charity, and now this has come back to haunt him

    I believe there is a Biblical parable with some relevance here
    I presume you have never done anything that 10 years in the future having undergone a career change perhaps under changing global circumstances isn't perfect PR....

    Via your logic nobody should donate to their old school or uni (or only do so in secret), just in case in 10 years time you might become CoE? In the US, you are a social pariah if you become wealthy and aren't seen to be donating to your alumni. I am constantly getting asked for donations from my former Oxbridge colleges, I presume all other major unis do the same...I suppose I should only donate via crypto that has been through a mixing service.
  • Farooq said:

    Have collected a curry from a local to my MIL's takeaway. They have done a big mail out of their menu with a money off voucher. For cash only transactions.

    I was a wee bit suspicious. When collecting (and paying by card) the guy was quite happy to tell me why the discount is cash only.

    Because if it's a card payment and they give the discount there isn't much left after they pay VAT. So they're not paying VAT on cash orders. Which means they're not putting them through the books. Not paying Corporation Tax.

    Dumb bastards really shouldn't be telling their customers that, they have no idea who might want to shop them for tax evasion...

    Shop them in. I'd do it.
    Too bloody right I will
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,131
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Memo to massively wealthy Tory politicians, don’t give MORE money to already wildly wealthy and super elitist public schools

    I’d give similar advice to Labour politicians of questionable patriotism: don’t support the IRA and hang out with Hamas

    Nah, it's very easy to defend - "I had a brillliant education at Winchester and I've been donating to a scholarship fund to enable kids who weren't as fortunate as I was when growing up to enable them to get the same benefits I had and with our education plan we will ensure that all kids get the same kind of excellent education I was able to receive"

    It doesn't need more than one line.
    Lol. A totally garbled, implausible line as you try to fit so much bollocks into one line
    So you need to abolish the public schools.

    Because your line would end all scholarships and then there would be even more polarisation of educational outcomes. It is surely a drop in the ocean but a non-trivial percentage of these schools' pupils are beneficiaries of such scholarships.

    https://www.etoncollege.com/admissions/scholarships-and-awards/

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eton-scholarship-teenager-poor-area-public-school-father-tesco-work-stephen-geddes-dingle-liverpool-a8094936.html
    That's the first good idea you've had!
    haha absolutely. Abolishing public schools is a perfectly legitimate aim (not one I hold, that said).

    Just that I didn't think @Leon was a fan.
    I don't know, Leon went to a comp and judging by his posts is not a huge fan of the great public schools.

    I don't think he would go as far as closing them however
    It would depend entirely upon the time of day in which this hypothetical decision was made, I guess?
    Yep. I’m in the excellent Skybar of my Izmir hotel and have had one crisp, large gin and tonic. I am at the stage of taking away their charitable status. By 9pm (Turkey time) I expect to call for their total abolition, By 11pm I will demand that they are levelled to the ground with a first strike by the hitherto unknown Mebyon Kernow Force de Frappe, and the ground to be salted with the bottled sweat of six generations of tin miners. Six!! And also for my granny, who was a barefoot bal maiden, breaking rocks for tin aged 10 (true story)
    Granny a bal maiden? Now that really is interesting. Hadn't realised they were still doing it that late; was reading about them during a Cornish visit (two actually). The costume is so revealing - not literally but in the sort of hem above the ankle and almost at the calf muscle which would instantly tell your average Victorian gent this was not a respectable middle class lady but one of the working classes who had to work for a living and keep her skirt from trailing in the muck and broken gossan and gangue and arsenic. Same with Scottish fisherwives and country farmworkers and Welsh countrywomen.
    In Auchmithy , where my wife’s family came from for many generations, the women would hike up their skirts and carry their men to the boats so that they didn’t start the day with seawater in their boots.
    I suspect that you wouldn’t have a lot of problem in differentiating them from a gentle maiden either.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,023
    The betting market doesn't seem to be reflecting the latest polling averages. FT, Guardian and Economist all have it as 53/47.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,637

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Winchester College has £400 MILLION in assets, a figure which has increased by £150 MILLION since 2015

    https://bylinetimes.com/2021/11/25/elite-private-schools-increase-assets-by-more-than-half-a-billion-pounds-in-six-years/

    It earns £27 million a year

    The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is providing over a cost of living crisis that might see people actually go hungry, is worth £500 million, and decided that Winchester College really needed £100,000. Cause they can barely get by, what with being worth £100 million less than him and his wife

    What’s more, he decided this donation was so crucial to Winchester College, which is barely scraping by with its £400 million in assets and £27 million in annual income, he should give this money PUBLICLY, so everyone can see his priorities

    He has been giving this money over the course of 10 years (by 2014, he had given over £25k).....that is what ultra wealthy people do, they give money and get their names on plaques of buildings.

    You can't turn a corner of London without some building, street, monument being named such because somebody once gave some money to charity....
    If Boris had a spare £100k like Rishi, you could be sure he wouldn't be giving it to Eton's scholarship fund but having a huge party of debauchery. Yet Rishi gets the flack
    Because Sunak wanted the warm glow of praise that comes from publicly giving to charity, and now this has come back to haunt him

    I believe there is a Biblical parable with some relevance here
    I presume you have never done anything that 10 years in the future having undergone a career change perhaps under changing global circumstances isn't perfect PR....

    I presume nobody should donate to their old school or uni, just in case in 10 years time you might become CoE? In the US, you are a social pariah if you become wealthy and aren't seen to be donating to your alumni. I am constantly getting asked for donations from my former Oxbridge colleges, I presume all other major unis do the same.
    Donating to alumni? They must do things differently in the USA. Friend of mine went to what HYUFD would call a top tier English "public" school and sent his children there. He once pointed out the standard notice in the old boys' mailing (this was the 1980s IIRC) which basically said "It is strictly understood that Old Boys don't use this to sting each other for loans".
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,335
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    What is wrong with that? Winchester is his old school, a top seat of learning and provides scholarships and bursaries the donation will help fund.

    It is his money

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sky-news-tories-b992638.html
    Objectively, it's commendable. Yet it is focussed very much on buttressing the private education system.

    Subjectively, it's a disaster, as it reminds the rest of the UK just how much money the Chancellor has to spare. (And how much tax relief was involved, too?)
    Objectively.. is it?
    Donating money to a cause depends on the worthiness of that cause. Private schools are engines for concentrating the quality of services and delivering them mostly to those who can pay.

    Yes, I know that bursaries exist and the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in, but it's still a system of intentional and intense stratification that benefits the extremely wealthy. It obviously right up HYUFD's street but if you asked me (I know, I know) I could find much better things to do with a spare £100k.
    "...the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in..."

    This is a modern version of the Distressed Gentlefolk* charity. Sure, in theory it's open to anybody but in reality only a very small subset of society, usually with the right connections, would ever have the wherewithal to apply, let alone be successful. It's a sham.

    (*I am probably being unfair to that charity, now sensibly renamed 'Elizabeth Finn Care'.)
    Not so. The recipients of these bursaries are not secret poshos down on their luck, they are the real deal. And quite often getting a shit time from everybody else for their failure to be posh, secretly or otherwise, but that's another story.
    Just exactly how do Winchester, Eton, etc. publicise these bursaries in your average sink estate?
    no idea. Talent scouts?
    Let me help you: They don't.
    Let me help you: you don’t know what you are talking about. Not only do they have very active outreach programmes helping schools and sharing resources they actively promote bursaries and scholarships around the country because funnily enough they actually do want to recruit very bright and able students as it benefits everyone at the school and, if cynical, the reputation of the school when these bright kids get access to places they wouldn’t otherwise and go on to do great things.

    All the major public schools support inner city clubs - Winchester for example supports the Crown and Manor club in London where they arrange exchanges, tutorial help, resources, money and time for kids from some of the shittiest unfortunate backgrounds because funnily enough all public school people aren’t entitled wankers.
    The people aren’t, the institutions are selfish greedy fucks. Winchester is worth 400 million. What the fuck, And they want to be charities? UGH

    Take their charitable status away

    Just one of the many stupidities of what Sunak has done is he has ensured - if this story gains traction (Ukraine might save him) - is that every Tory will now be asked to justify Sunak’s 100k to Winchester. Because he is CoE they will have to defend him, but it will be very awkward, and it will sound like MaxPB’s strangulated nonsense. They won’t thank him for this
    That charitable status helps them fund scholarships and bursaries and providing sports and arts facilities to share with the local community too
    I think you've put the cart before the horse there. As a retired teacher from the independent sector I was aware that the charitable status had been around for many years before the advent of large numbers of scholarships. The development of scholarships etc appeared as a way championed by ISI to justify and retain the charitable status already in place. The main reason for the charitable status was to be let off paying the rates, which was usually enormous. The school still had to pay VAT on the usual items.
    Rate relief has been abolished for private schools in Scotland - came into force this month AIUI. Now treated the same as state schools in that respect.
    And the private schools will thus offer fewer scholarships and become even more the preserve of the rich.

    Great job Sturgeon!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,080

    Farooq said:

    Have collected a curry from a local to my MIL's takeaway. They have done a big mail out of their menu with a money off voucher. For cash only transactions.

    I was a wee bit suspicious. When collecting (and paying by card) the guy was quite happy to tell me why the discount is cash only.

    Because if it's a card payment and they give the discount there isn't much left after they pay VAT. So they're not paying VAT on cash orders. Which means they're not putting them through the books. Not paying Corporation Tax.

    Dumb bastards really shouldn't be telling their customers that, they have no idea who might want to shop them for tax evasion...

    Shop them in. I'd do it.
    Too bloody right I will
    Yes. If we play by the rules, so should they.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,878
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Memo to massively wealthy Tory politicians, don’t give MORE money to already wildly wealthy and super elitist public schools

    I’d give similar advice to Labour politicians of questionable patriotism: don’t support the IRA and hang out with Hamas

    Nah, it's very easy to defend - "I had a brillliant education at Winchester and I've been donating to a scholarship fund to enable kids who weren't as fortunate as I was when growing up to enable them to get the same benefits I had and with our education plan we will ensure that all kids get the same kind of excellent education I was able to receive"

    It doesn't need more than one line.
    Lol. A totally garbled, implausible line as you try to fit so much bollocks into one line
    So you need to abolish the public schools.

    Because your line would end all scholarships and then there would be even more polarisation of educational outcomes. It is surely a drop in the ocean but a non-trivial percentage of these schools' pupils are beneficiaries of such scholarships.

    https://www.etoncollege.com/admissions/scholarships-and-awards/

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eton-scholarship-teenager-poor-area-public-school-father-tesco-work-stephen-geddes-dingle-liverpool-a8094936.html
    That's the first good idea you've had!
    haha absolutely. Abolishing public schools is a perfectly legitimate aim (not one I hold, that said).

    Just that I didn't think @Leon was a fan.
    I don't know, Leon went to a comp and judging by his posts is not a huge fan of the great public schools.

    I don't think he would go as far as closing them however
    It would depend entirely upon the time of day in which this hypothetical decision was made, I guess?
    Yep. I’m in the excellent Skybar of my Izmir hotel and have had one crisp, large gin and tonic. I am at the stage of taking away their charitable status. By 9pm (Turkey time) I expect to call for their total abolition, By 11pm I will demand that they are levelled to the ground with a first strike by the hitherto unknown Mebyon Kernow Force de Frappe, and the ground to be salted with the bottled sweat of six generations of tin miners. Six!! And also for my granny, who was a barefoot bal maiden, breaking rocks for tin aged 10 (true story)
    Granny a bal maiden? Now that really is interesting. Hadn't realised they were still doing it that late; was reading about them during a Cornish visit (two actually). The costume is so revealing - not literally but in the sort of hem above the ankle and almost at the calf muscle which would instantly tell your average Victorian gent this was not a respectable middle class lady but one of the working classes who had to work for a living and keep her skirt from trailing in the muck and broken gossan and gangue and arsenic. Same with Scottish fisherwives and country farmworkers and Welsh countrywomen.
    Yep, my mum’s mum, Annie

    She was a bal maiden in St Agnes on the cliffs, Barefoot, breaking rocks, all weathers. Before WW1

    One of the reasons (IIRC) it persisted so late in Cornwall is because the legislation against child labour in mines was specifically aimed at boys. The London legislators didn’t realise Cornish girls were pressed into toil up at grass, so the mine owners exploited the loophole

    She escaped in her teens, got wed, had eight kids, and died in her early 60s, worn out by motherhood or the early slavery, or both. So I never met her

    My lord, what would she think of me, her grandson, sitting in a bar in Izmir tapping out my twaddle on my iPad. What an unimaginable distance in human experience

    She’d wonder how the family had ever come to sink so far.
    Dunno. Think she liked a drop. As you would with that childhood and all those kids

    I just found her on ancestry.co.uk

    She must have been in the mines around 1908, is my guess, which makes total sense. The last bal maidens stopped working in 1921

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bal_maiden

    What an extraordinary story. The noise of the stamps was so loud (the tin districts of Cornwall would have been deafeningly loud at the height of the mining boom) many bal maidens went partly deaf and had their own private sign language
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,744
    Leon said:

    To the Russian people, look at what is being done in your name. You deserve the truth. You deserve the facts.
    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1511388515787055115?s=20&t=p7mm9OKrpkFYOfHaP1MIXA

    Boris PR department has clearly had an upgrade (or perhaps they aren't constantly pissed). His COVID statements were nowhere near as good as this. He actually sounds like a world leader should.

    Also, the brilliant hit job on Sunak (this Winchester thing has to be the calculated blow of an assassin) suggests Boris has got someone in his team with a bit of the old Dom C mojo
    Yes. As HYUFD was often telling us, had Boris been deposed over PartyGate then Rishi would have been installed as Dom's puppet. This is probably more about Dom than Rishi - by wiping out the favourite son, mafia-like, Boris's team have rammed home where Dom now stands in the scheme of things.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,023
    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    What is wrong with that? Winchester is his old school, a top seat of learning and provides scholarships and bursaries the donation will help fund.

    It is his money

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sky-news-tories-b992638.html
    Objectively, it's commendable. Yet it is focussed very much on buttressing the private education system.

    Subjectively, it's a disaster, as it reminds the rest of the UK just how much money the Chancellor has to spare. (And how much tax relief was involved, too?)

    Edit: that last point concerns the amount of tax moneys effectively taken out of the Exchequer and diverted to the private purposes of this, or indeed, any donor.
    Wouldn't it have been better to donate money to the state school system. They need it more.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,080
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Winchester College has £400 MILLION in assets, a figure which has increased by £150 MILLION since 2015

    https://bylinetimes.com/2021/11/25/elite-private-schools-increase-assets-by-more-than-half-a-billion-pounds-in-six-years/

    It earns £27 million a year

    The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is providing over a cost of living crisis that might see people actually go hungry, is worth £500 million, and decided that Winchester College really needed £100,000. Cause they can barely get by, what with being worth £100 million less than him and his wife

    What’s more, he decided this donation was so crucial to Winchester College, which is barely scraping by with its £400 million in assets and £27 million in annual income, he should give this money PUBLICLY, so everyone can see his priorities

    He has been giving this money over the course of 10 years (by 2014, he had given over £25k).....that is what ultra wealthy people do, they give money and get their names on plaques of buildings.

    You can't turn a corner of London without some building, street, monument being named such because somebody once gave some money to charity....
    If Boris had a spare £100k like Rishi, you could be sure he wouldn't be giving it to Eton's scholarship fund but having a huge party of debauchery. Yet Rishi gets the flack
    Because Sunak wanted the warm glow of praise that comes from publicly giving to charity, and now this has come back to haunt him

    I believe there is a Biblical parable with some relevance here
    I presume you have never done anything that 10 years in the future having undergone a career change perhaps under changing global circumstances isn't perfect PR....

    I presume nobody should donate to their old school or uni, just in case in 10 years time you might become CoE? In the US, you are a social pariah if you become wealthy and aren't seen to be donating to your alumni. I am constantly getting asked for donations from my former Oxbridge colleges, I presume all other major unis do the same.
    Donating to alumni? They must do things differently in the USA. Friend of mine went to what HYUFD would call a top tier English "public" school and sent his children there. He once pointed out the standard notice in the old boys' mailing (this was the 1980s IIRC) which basically said "It is strictly understood that Old Boys don't use this to sting each other for loans".
    I'm pretty sure they meant donating to the college/university, not others in their cohort.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,970

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    What is wrong with that? Winchester is his old school, a top seat of learning and provides scholarships and bursaries the donation will help fund.

    It is his money

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sky-news-tories-b992638.html
    Objectively, it's commendable. Yet it is focussed very much on buttressing the private education system.

    Subjectively, it's a disaster, as it reminds the rest of the UK just how much money the Chancellor has to spare. (And how much tax relief was involved, too?)
    Objectively.. is it?
    Donating money to a cause depends on the worthiness of that cause. Private schools are engines for concentrating the quality of services and delivering them mostly to those who can pay.

    Yes, I know that bursaries exist and the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in, but it's still a system of intentional and intense stratification that benefits the extremely wealthy. It obviously right up HYUFD's street but if you asked me (I know, I know) I could find much better things to do with a spare £100k.
    "...the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in..."

    This is a modern version of the Distressed Gentlefolk* charity. Sure, in theory it's open to anybody but in reality only a very small subset of society, usually with the right connections, would ever have the wherewithal to apply, let alone be successful. It's a sham.

    (*I am probably being unfair to that charity, now sensibly renamed 'Elizabeth Finn Care'.)
    Not so. The recipients of these bursaries are not secret poshos down on their luck, they are the real deal. And quite often getting a shit time from everybody else for their failure to be posh, secretly or otherwise, but that's another story.
    Just exactly how do Winchester, Eton, etc. publicise these bursaries in your average sink estate?
    no idea. Talent scouts?
    Let me help you: They don't.
    Let me help you: you don’t know what you are talking about. Not only do they have very active outreach programmes helping schools and sharing resources they actively promote bursaries and scholarships around the country because funnily enough they actually do want to recruit very bright and able students as it benefits everyone at the school and, if cynical, the reputation of the school when these bright kids get access to places they wouldn’t otherwise and go on to do great things.

    All the major public schools support inner city clubs - Winchester for example supports the Crown and Manor club in London where they arrange exchanges, tutorial help, resources, money and time for kids from some of the shittiest unfortunate backgrounds because funnily enough all public school people aren’t entitled wankers.
    The people aren’t, the institutions are selfish greedy fucks. Winchester is worth 400 million. What the fuck, And they want to be charities? UGH

    Take their charitable status away

    Just one of the many stupidities of what Sunak has done is he has ensured - if this story gains traction (Ukraine might save him) - is that every Tory will now be asked to justify Sunak’s 100k to Winchester. Because he is CoE they will have to defend him, but it will be very awkward, and it will sound like MaxPB’s strangulated nonsense. They won’t thank him for this
    That charitable status helps them fund scholarships and bursaries and providing sports and arts facilities to share with the local community too
    You've got it the wrong way round. They make those token efforts only because it gives them a fig leaf to help them ward off calls for their charitable status to be ended.

    Although Sunak's £100k will have gone a long way to resurrecting the salience of the issue of the charitable status of public schools, so they might come to regret it in a couple of years or so.
    snap!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,637
    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Memo to massively wealthy Tory politicians, don’t give MORE money to already wildly wealthy and super elitist public schools

    I’d give similar advice to Labour politicians of questionable patriotism: don’t support the IRA and hang out with Hamas

    Nah, it's very easy to defend - "I had a brillliant education at Winchester and I've been donating to a scholarship fund to enable kids who weren't as fortunate as I was when growing up to enable them to get the same benefits I had and with our education plan we will ensure that all kids get the same kind of excellent education I was able to receive"

    It doesn't need more than one line.
    Lol. A totally garbled, implausible line as you try to fit so much bollocks into one line
    So you need to abolish the public schools.

    Because your line would end all scholarships and then there would be even more polarisation of educational outcomes. It is surely a drop in the ocean but a non-trivial percentage of these schools' pupils are beneficiaries of such scholarships.

    https://www.etoncollege.com/admissions/scholarships-and-awards/

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eton-scholarship-teenager-poor-area-public-school-father-tesco-work-stephen-geddes-dingle-liverpool-a8094936.html
    That's the first good idea you've had!
    haha absolutely. Abolishing public schools is a perfectly legitimate aim (not one I hold, that said).

    Just that I didn't think @Leon was a fan.
    I don't know, Leon went to a comp and judging by his posts is not a huge fan of the great public schools.

    I don't think he would go as far as closing them however
    It would depend entirely upon the time of day in which this hypothetical decision was made, I guess?
    Yep. I’m in the excellent Skybar of my Izmir hotel and have had one crisp, large gin and tonic. I am at the stage of taking away their charitable status. By 9pm (Turkey time) I expect to call for their total abolition, By 11pm I will demand that they are levelled to the ground with a first strike by the hitherto unknown Mebyon Kernow Force de Frappe, and the ground to be salted with the bottled sweat of six generations of tin miners. Six!! And also for my granny, who was a barefoot bal maiden, breaking rocks for tin aged 10 (true story)
    Granny a bal maiden? Now that really is interesting. Hadn't realised they were still doing it that late; was reading about them during a Cornish visit (two actually). The costume is so revealing - not literally but in the sort of hem above the ankle and almost at the calf muscle which would instantly tell your average Victorian gent this was not a respectable middle class lady but one of the working classes who had to work for a living and keep her skirt from trailing in the muck and broken gossan and gangue and arsenic. Same with Scottish fisherwives and country farmworkers and Welsh countrywomen.
    In Auchmithy , where my wife’s family came from for many generations, the women would hike up their skirts and carry their men to the boats so that they didn’t start the day with seawater in their boots.
    I suspect that you wouldn’t have a lot of problem in differentiating them from a gentle maiden either.
    I was being ironic about the Victorian attitude to respectability. But yes, wading, and also the mud and stour from tramping the roads carrying the creels of fish to their customers. As at Newhaven:

    https://digital.nls.uk/photographs/david_oct.html
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    What is wrong with that? Winchester is his old school, a top seat of learning and provides scholarships and bursaries the donation will help fund.

    It is his money

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sky-news-tories-b992638.html
    Objectively, it's commendable. Yet it is focussed very much on buttressing the private education system.

    Subjectively, it's a disaster, as it reminds the rest of the UK just how much money the Chancellor has to spare. (And how much tax relief was involved, too?)
    Objectively.. is it?
    Donating money to a cause depends on the worthiness of that cause. Private schools are engines for concentrating the quality of services and delivering them mostly to those who can pay.

    Yes, I know that bursaries exist and the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in, but it's still a system of intentional and intense stratification that benefits the extremely wealthy. It obviously right up HYUFD's street but if you asked me (I know, I know) I could find much better things to do with a spare £100k.
    "...the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in..."

    This is a modern version of the Distressed Gentlefolk* charity. Sure, in theory it's open to anybody but in reality only a very small subset of society, usually with the right connections, would ever have the wherewithal to apply, let alone be successful. It's a sham.

    (*I am probably being unfair to that charity, now sensibly renamed 'Elizabeth Finn Care'.)
    Not so. The recipients of these bursaries are not secret poshos down on their luck, they are the real deal. And quite often getting a shit time from everybody else for their failure to be posh, secretly or otherwise, but that's another story.
    Just exactly how do Winchester, Eton, etc. publicise these bursaries in your average sink estate?
    no idea. Talent scouts?
    Let me help you: They don't.
    Let me help you: you don’t know what you are talking about. Not only do they have very active outreach programmes helping schools and sharing resources they actively promote bursaries and scholarships around the country because funnily enough they actually do want to recruit very bright and able students as it benefits everyone at the school and, if cynical, the reputation of the school when these bright kids get access to places they wouldn’t otherwise and go on to do great things.

    All the major public schools support inner city clubs - Winchester for example supports the Crown and Manor club in London where they arrange exchanges, tutorial help, resources, money and time for kids from some of the shittiest unfortunate backgrounds because funnily enough all public school people aren’t entitled wankers.
    The people aren’t, the institutions are selfish greedy fucks. Winchester is worth 400 million. What the fuck, And they want to be charities? UGH

    Take their charitable status away

    Just one of the many stupidities of what Sunak has done is he has ensured - if this story gains traction (Ukraine might save him) - is that every Tory will now be asked to justify Sunak’s 100k to Winchester. Because he is CoE they will have to defend him, but it will be very awkward, and it will sound like MaxPB’s strangulated nonsense. They won’t thank him for this
    Out of interest what do you think places like Winchester spend the income from their endowments on?

    Here’s a little helper to get you going, it’s not on Super Yachts.

    Maybe look in the direction of the crazy array of listed buildings which cost millions to upkeep each year. Now I’m sure if they are abolished the govt will happily spend the same money rather than lose those listed buildings but then everyone will be complaining that’s a waste of money I imagine.

    Maybe look at the manuscripts such as Harmar’s work for the King James Bible which he did at Winchester which has to be preserved and insured as just one example.

    Or do we seize these items from their legal owners - imagine the govt taking your manuscripts away from you…..

    Please do explain though what it’s spent on because with 650 odd students paying around 45k a year it’s still not pissing the money up the wall on parties and gin.
    I don't actually doubt that Winchester will spend the money on matters that they consider worthy. The criticism is that it's a peculiar priority in our society to give them a large sum when there are so many other obvious needs at home and abroad.

    Since it's his money, he is of course entitled to give it to anyone he likes, or indeed to spend it on riotous living. However, in his position he also has a responsibility to show leadership and set an example of reasonable priorities. That will apply even more if, in due course, he become Prime Minister.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,637
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    What is wrong with that? Winchester is his old school, a top seat of learning and provides scholarships and bursaries the donation will help fund.

    It is his money

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sky-news-tories-b992638.html
    Objectively, it's commendable. Yet it is focussed very much on buttressing the private education system.

    Subjectively, it's a disaster, as it reminds the rest of the UK just how much money the Chancellor has to spare. (And how much tax relief was involved, too?)
    Objectively.. is it?
    Donating money to a cause depends on the worthiness of that cause. Private schools are engines for concentrating the quality of services and delivering them mostly to those who can pay.

    Yes, I know that bursaries exist and the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in, but it's still a system of intentional and intense stratification that benefits the extremely wealthy. It obviously right up HYUFD's street but if you asked me (I know, I know) I could find much better things to do with a spare £100k.
    "...the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in..."

    This is a modern version of the Distressed Gentlefolk* charity. Sure, in theory it's open to anybody but in reality only a very small subset of society, usually with the right connections, would ever have the wherewithal to apply, let alone be successful. It's a sham.

    (*I am probably being unfair to that charity, now sensibly renamed 'Elizabeth Finn Care'.)
    Not so. The recipients of these bursaries are not secret poshos down on their luck, they are the real deal. And quite often getting a shit time from everybody else for their failure to be posh, secretly or otherwise, but that's another story.
    Just exactly how do Winchester, Eton, etc. publicise these bursaries in your average sink estate?
    no idea. Talent scouts?
    Let me help you: They don't.
    Let me help you: you don’t know what you are talking about. Not only do they have very active outreach programmes helping schools and sharing resources they actively promote bursaries and scholarships around the country because funnily enough they actually do want to recruit very bright and able students as it benefits everyone at the school and, if cynical, the reputation of the school when these bright kids get access to places they wouldn’t otherwise and go on to do great things.

    All the major public schools support inner city clubs - Winchester for example supports the Crown and Manor club in London where they arrange exchanges, tutorial help, resources, money and time for kids from some of the shittiest unfortunate backgrounds because funnily enough all public school people aren’t entitled wankers.
    The people aren’t, the institutions are selfish greedy fucks. Winchester is worth 400 million. What the fuck, And they want to be charities? UGH

    Take their charitable status away

    Just one of the many stupidities of what Sunak has done is he has ensured - if this story gains traction (Ukraine might save him) - is that every Tory will now be asked to justify Sunak’s 100k to Winchester. Because he is CoE they will have to defend him, but it will be very awkward, and it will sound like MaxPB’s strangulated nonsense. They won’t thank him for this
    That charitable status helps them fund scholarships and bursaries and providing sports and arts facilities to share with the local community too
    I think you've put the cart before the horse there. As a retired teacher from the independent sector I was aware that the charitable status had been around for many years before the advent of large numbers of scholarships. The development of scholarships etc appeared as a way championed by ISI to justify and retain the charitable status already in place. The main reason for the charitable status was to be let off paying the rates, which was usually enormous. The school still had to pay VAT on the usual items.
    Rate relief has been abolished for private schools in Scotland - came into force this month AIUI. Now treated the same as state schools in that respect.
    And the private schools will thus offer fewer scholarships and become even more the preserve of the rich.

    Great job Sturgeon!
    We don't all want to cater only for the Inner Party and the Outer Party. There are other people than Tories.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,131

    Farooq said:

    Have collected a curry from a local to my MIL's takeaway. They have done a big mail out of their menu with a money off voucher. For cash only transactions.

    I was a wee bit suspicious. When collecting (and paying by card) the guy was quite happy to tell me why the discount is cash only.

    Because if it's a card payment and they give the discount there isn't much left after they pay VAT. So they're not paying VAT on cash orders. Which means they're not putting them through the books. Not paying Corporation Tax.

    Dumb bastards really shouldn't be telling their customers that, they have no idea who might want to shop them for tax evasion...

    Shop them in. I'd do it.
    Too bloody right I will
    With most carry out shops the cash only demand is usually a sure sign that the VATman is sniffing about and a change of ownership is imminent.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,023
    edited April 2022
    In a sane world, it would have been private schools that were abolished, not grammar schools.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,810
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Memo to massively wealthy Tory politicians, don’t give MORE money to already wildly wealthy and super elitist public schools

    I’d give similar advice to Labour politicians of questionable patriotism: don’t support the IRA and hang out with Hamas

    Nah, it's very easy to defend - "I had a brillliant education at Winchester and I've been donating to a scholarship fund to enable kids who weren't as fortunate as I was when growing up to enable them to get the same benefits I had and with our education plan we will ensure that all kids get the same kind of excellent education I was able to receive"

    It doesn't need more than one line.
    Lol. A totally garbled, implausible line as you try to fit so much bollocks into one line
    So you need to abolish the public schools.

    Because your line would end all scholarships and then there would be even more polarisation of educational outcomes. It is surely a drop in the ocean but a non-trivial percentage of these schools' pupils are beneficiaries of such scholarships.

    https://www.etoncollege.com/admissions/scholarships-and-awards/

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eton-scholarship-teenager-poor-area-public-school-father-tesco-work-stephen-geddes-dingle-liverpool-a8094936.html
    That's the first good idea you've had!
    haha absolutely. Abolishing public schools is a perfectly legitimate aim (not one I hold, that said).

    Just that I didn't think @Leon was a fan.
    I don't know, Leon went to a comp and judging by his posts is not a huge fan of the great public schools.

    I don't think he would go as far as closing them however
    It would depend entirely upon the time of day in which this hypothetical decision was made, I guess?
    Yep. I’m in the excellent Skybar of my Izmir hotel and have had one crisp, large gin and tonic. I am at the stage of taking away their charitable status. By 9pm (Turkey time) I expect to call for their total abolition, By 11pm I will demand that they are levelled to the ground with a first strike by the hitherto unknown Mebyon Kernow Force de Frappe, and the ground to be salted with the bottled sweat of six generations of tin miners. Six!! And also for my granny, who was a barefoot bal maiden, breaking rocks for tin aged 10 (true story)
    Granny a bal maiden? Now that really is interesting. Hadn't realised they were still doing it that late; was reading about them during a Cornish visit (two actually). The costume is so revealing - not literally but in the sort of hem above the ankle and almost at the calf muscle which would instantly tell your average Victorian gent this was not a respectable middle class lady but one of the working classes who had to work for a living and keep her skirt from trailing in the muck and broken gossan and gangue and arsenic. Same with Scottish fisherwives and country farmworkers and Welsh countrywomen.
    Yep, my mum’s mum, Annie

    She was a bal maiden in St Agnes on the cliffs, Barefoot, breaking rocks, all weathers. Before WW1

    One of the reasons (IIRC) it persisted so late in Cornwall is because the legislation against child labour in mines was specifically aimed at boys. The London legislators didn’t realise Cornish girls were pressed into toil up at grass, so the mine owners exploited the loophole

    She escaped in her teens, got wed, had eight kids, and died in her early 60s, worn out by motherhood or the early slavery, or both. So I never met her

    My lord, what would she think of me, her grandson, sitting in a bar in Izmir tapping out my twaddle on my iPad. What an unimaginable distance in human experience

    She’d wonder how the family had ever come to sink so far.
    If one digs into one’s Family History one finds this sort of thing. My grandfather used to lament that he’d had to go down the mines at 12, although his grandfather had been a doctor. And we all said something like ‘poor old chap’.
    But he had been. Cleared off to London, left his girlfriend and their baby. Made a fortune.

    That fortune never got anywhere near ‘my’ Coles!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,324

    Leon said:

    To the Russian people, look at what is being done in your name. You deserve the truth. You deserve the facts.
    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1511388515787055115?s=20&t=p7mm9OKrpkFYOfHaP1MIXA

    Boris PR department has clearly had an upgrade (or perhaps they aren't constantly pissed). His COVID statements were nowhere near as good as this. He actually sounds like a world leader should.

    Also, the brilliant hit job on Sunak (this Winchester thing has to be the calculated blow of an assassin) suggests Boris has got someone in his team with a bit of the old Dom C mojo
    Yes. As HYUFD was often telling us, had Boris been deposed over PartyGate then Rishi would have been installed as Dom's puppet. This is probably more about Dom than Rishi - by wiping out the favourite son, mafia-like, Boris's team have rammed home where Dom now stands in the scheme of things.
    There is something amusing about an Old Etonian trashing the former Head Boy of Winchester for being over privileged.

    I went to school in Winchester 79-83, but at Comprehensives. I don't recall any charitable activities by the Winco boys, as we called them, just fairly routine verbal abuse while dossing around on the Buttercross or Cathedral grounds, where we oiks used to gather, drink and flirt.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,878
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Winchester College has £400 MILLION in assets, a figure which has increased by £150 MILLION since 2015

    https://bylinetimes.com/2021/11/25/elite-private-schools-increase-assets-by-more-than-half-a-billion-pounds-in-six-years/

    It earns £27 million a year

    The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is providing over a cost of living crisis that might see people actually go hungry, is worth £500 million, and decided that Winchester College really needed £100,000. Cause they can barely get by, what with being worth £100 million less than him and his wife

    What’s more, he decided this donation was so crucial to Winchester College, which is barely scraping by with its £400 million in assets and £27 million in annual income, he should give this money PUBLICLY, so everyone can see his priorities

    He has been giving this money over the course of 10 years (by 2014, he had given over £25k).....that is what ultra wealthy people do, they give money and get their names on plaques of buildings.

    You can't turn a corner of London without some building, street, monument being named such because somebody once gave some money to charity....
    If Boris had a spare £100k like Rishi, you could be sure he wouldn't be giving it to Eton's scholarship fund but having a huge party of debauchery. Yet Rishi gets the flack
    Because he wanted the warm praise that comes from publicly giving to charity, and now this has come back to haunt him

    I believe there is a Biblical parable with some relevance here
    It was pretty low key giving. he doesn't even put MP after his name, and I challenge you to find a more obscure journal to publicise yourself in, it makes the Flint Knapper's Quarterly look like the News of the World. Not that I mind what happens to him, but this was pure bad luck compounded by pure malice.

    Like many - I suspect - I struggle to feel sorry for the *bad luck* of Rishi “£500 million” Sunak, as he is discovered giving £100,000 to struggling, desperate Winchester “£400 million” College (single sex pre sixth form)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,637
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    What is wrong with that? Winchester is his old school, a top seat of learning and provides scholarships and bursaries the donation will help fund.

    It is his money

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sky-news-tories-b992638.html
    Objectively, it's commendable. Yet it is focussed very much on buttressing the private education system.

    Subjectively, it's a disaster, as it reminds the rest of the UK just how much money the Chancellor has to spare. (And how much tax relief was involved, too?)
    Objectively.. is it?
    Donating money to a cause depends on the worthiness of that cause. Private schools are engines for concentrating the quality of services and delivering them mostly to those who can pay.

    Yes, I know that bursaries exist and the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in, but it's still a system of intentional and intense stratification that benefits the extremely wealthy. It obviously right up HYUFD's street but if you asked me (I know, I know) I could find much better things to do with a spare £100k.
    "...the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in..."

    This is a modern version of the Distressed Gentlefolk* charity. Sure, in theory it's open to anybody but in reality only a very small subset of society, usually with the right connections, would ever have the wherewithal to apply, let alone be successful. It's a sham.

    (*I am probably being unfair to that charity, now sensibly renamed 'Elizabeth Finn Care'.)
    Not so. The recipients of these bursaries are not secret poshos down on their luck, they are the real deal. And quite often getting a shit time from everybody else for their failure to be posh, secretly or otherwise, but that's another story.
    Just exactly how do Winchester, Eton, etc. publicise these bursaries in your average sink estate?
    no idea. Talent scouts?
    Let me help you: They don't.
    Let me help you: you don’t know what you are talking about. Not only do they have very active outreach programmes helping schools and sharing resources they actively promote bursaries and scholarships around the country because funnily enough they actually do want to recruit very bright and able students as it benefits everyone at the school and, if cynical, the reputation of the school when these bright kids get access to places they wouldn’t otherwise and go on to do great things.

    All the major public schools support inner city clubs - Winchester for example supports the Crown and Manor club in London where they arrange exchanges, tutorial help, resources, money and time for kids from some of the shittiest unfortunate backgrounds because funnily enough all public school people aren’t entitled wankers.
    The people aren’t, the institutions are selfish greedy fucks. Winchester is worth 400 million. What the fuck, And they want to be charities? UGH

    Take their charitable status away

    Just one of the many stupidities of what Sunak has done is he has ensured - if this story gains traction (Ukraine might save him) - is that every Tory will now be asked to justify Sunak’s 100k to Winchester. Because he is CoE they will have to defend him, but it will be very awkward, and it will sound like MaxPB’s strangulated nonsense. They won’t thank him for this
    That charitable status helps them fund scholarships and bursaries and providing sports and arts facilities to share with the local community too
    I think you've put the cart before the horse there. As a retired teacher from the independent sector I was aware that the charitable status had been around for many years before the advent of large numbers of scholarships. The development of scholarships etc appeared as a way championed by ISI to justify and retain the charitable status already in place. The main reason for the charitable status was to be let off paying the rates, which was usually enormous. The school still had to pay VAT on the usual items.
    Rate relief has been abolished for private schools in Scotland - came into force this month AIUI. Now treated the same as state schools in that respect.
    And the private schools will thus offer fewer scholarships and become even more the preserve of the rich.

    Great job Sturgeon!
    Wasn't her. Recommendation of

    https://www.gov.scot/publications/report-barclay-review-non-domestic-rates/
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,131
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Memo to massively wealthy Tory politicians, don’t give MORE money to already wildly wealthy and super elitist public schools

    I’d give similar advice to Labour politicians of questionable patriotism: don’t support the IRA and hang out with Hamas

    Nah, it's very easy to defend - "I had a brillliant education at Winchester and I've been donating to a scholarship fund to enable kids who weren't as fortunate as I was when growing up to enable them to get the same benefits I had and with our education plan we will ensure that all kids get the same kind of excellent education I was able to receive"

    It doesn't need more than one line.
    Lol. A totally garbled, implausible line as you try to fit so much bollocks into one line
    So you need to abolish the public schools.

    Because your line would end all scholarships and then there would be even more polarisation of educational outcomes. It is surely a drop in the ocean but a non-trivial percentage of these schools' pupils are beneficiaries of such scholarships.

    https://www.etoncollege.com/admissions/scholarships-and-awards/

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eton-scholarship-teenager-poor-area-public-school-father-tesco-work-stephen-geddes-dingle-liverpool-a8094936.html
    That's the first good idea you've had!
    haha absolutely. Abolishing public schools is a perfectly legitimate aim (not one I hold, that said).

    Just that I didn't think @Leon was a fan.
    I don't know, Leon went to a comp and judging by his posts is not a huge fan of the great public schools.

    I don't think he would go as far as closing them however
    It would depend entirely upon the time of day in which this hypothetical decision was made, I guess?
    Yep. I’m in the excellent Skybar of my Izmir hotel and have had one crisp, large gin and tonic. I am at the stage of taking away their charitable status. By 9pm (Turkey time) I expect to call for their total abolition, By 11pm I will demand that they are levelled to the ground with a first strike by the hitherto unknown Mebyon Kernow Force de Frappe, and the ground to be salted with the bottled sweat of six generations of tin miners. Six!! And also for my granny, who was a barefoot bal maiden, breaking rocks for tin aged 10 (true story)
    Granny a bal maiden? Now that really is interesting. Hadn't realised they were still doing it that late; was reading about them during a Cornish visit (two actually). The costume is so revealing - not literally but in the sort of hem above the ankle and almost at the calf muscle which would instantly tell your average Victorian gent this was not a respectable middle class lady but one of the working classes who had to work for a living and keep her skirt from trailing in the muck and broken gossan and gangue and arsenic. Same with Scottish fisherwives and country farmworkers and Welsh countrywomen.
    In Auchmithy , where my wife’s family came from for many generations, the women would hike up their skirts and carry their men to the boats so that they didn’t start the day with seawater in their boots.
    I suspect that you wouldn’t have a lot of problem in differentiating them from a gentle maiden either.
    I was being ironic about the Victorian attitude to respectability. But yes, wading, and also the mud and stour from tramping the roads carrying the creels of fish to their customers. As at Newhaven:

    https://digital.nls.uk/photographs/david_oct.html
    These women were as hard as nails who held their families together in the toughest of times. Magnificent human beings. I am honoured to be married to one of their successors.
  • Andy_JS said:

    In a sane world, it would have been private schools that were abolished, not grammar schools.

    That's not a very sane world.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,023
    A political party that was left-wing on economics and right-wing on other issues would be very popular IMO. We don't have one at the moment.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,335
    Andy_JS said:

    In a sane world, it would have been private schools that were abolished, not grammar schools.

    No, have both.

    Parents get more choice and bright children have more chance of getting into a highly academic state school
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,590

    Farooq said:

    Have collected a curry from a local to my MIL's takeaway. They have done a big mail out of their menu with a money off voucher. For cash only transactions.

    I was a wee bit suspicious. When collecting (and paying by card) the guy was quite happy to tell me why the discount is cash only.

    Because if it's a card payment and they give the discount there isn't much left after they pay VAT. So they're not paying VAT on cash orders. Which means they're not putting them through the books. Not paying Corporation Tax.

    Dumb bastards really shouldn't be telling their customers that, they have no idea who might want to shop them for tax evasion...

    Shop them in. I'd do it.
    Too bloody right I will
    No bleeding heart liberal, I, however is it worth considering, instead of dobbing them in you send an anonymous note outlining what they are doing, it’s illegality and “imorality” and point out that they don’t know who you are and you will be sending in friends to check if they are still trying this on?

    Give them a chance to stop rather than potential consequences to owner’s family, the local community etc?

    I’m having an evening of trying to be nice so thought I would suggest it!
  • Remember when Rishi was the greatest thing since sliced bread, I remember how good @Big_G_NorthWales thought he was. Poor judgment.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,878
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    In a sane world, it would have been private schools that were abolished, not grammar schools.

    No, have both.

    Parents get more choice and bright children have more chance of getting into a highly academic state school
    Make the state schools so good the private schools mostly go out of business (some will always survive, because connections)
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,101
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Memo to massively wealthy Tory politicians, don’t give MORE money to already wildly wealthy and super elitist public schools

    I’d give similar advice to Labour politicians of questionable patriotism: don’t support the IRA and hang out with Hamas

    Nah, it's very easy to defend - "I had a brillliant education at Winchester and I've been donating to a scholarship fund to enable kids who weren't as fortunate as I was when growing up to enable them to get the same benefits I had and with our education plan we will ensure that all kids get the same kind of excellent education I was able to receive"

    It doesn't need more than one line.
    Lol. A totally garbled, implausible line as you try to fit so much bollocks into one line
    So you need to abolish the public schools.

    Because your line would end all scholarships and then there would be even more polarisation of educational outcomes. It is surely a drop in the ocean but a non-trivial percentage of these schools' pupils are beneficiaries of such scholarships.

    https://www.etoncollege.com/admissions/scholarships-and-awards/

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eton-scholarship-teenager-poor-area-public-school-father-tesco-work-stephen-geddes-dingle-liverpool-a8094936.html
    That's the first good idea you've had!
    haha absolutely. Abolishing public schools is a perfectly legitimate aim (not one I hold, that said).

    Just that I didn't think @Leon was a fan.
    I don't know, Leon went to a comp and judging by his posts is not a huge fan of the great public schools.

    I don't think he would go as far as closing them however
    It would depend entirely upon the time of day in which this hypothetical decision was made, I guess?
    Yep. I’m in the excellent Skybar of my Izmir hotel and have had one crisp, large gin and tonic. I am at the stage of taking away their charitable status. By 9pm (Turkey time) I expect to call for their total abolition, By 11pm I will demand that they are levelled to the ground with a first strike by the hitherto unknown Mebyon Kernow Force de Frappe, and the ground to be salted with the bottled sweat of six generations of tin miners. Six!! And also for my granny, who was a barefoot bal maiden, breaking rocks for tin aged 10 (true story)
    Granny a bal maiden? Now that really is interesting. Hadn't realised they were still doing it that late; was reading about them during a Cornish visit (two actually). The costume is so revealing - not literally but in the sort of hem above the ankle and almost at the calf muscle which would instantly tell your average Victorian gent this was not a respectable middle class lady but one of the working classes who had to work for a living and keep her skirt from trailing in the muck and broken gossan and gangue and arsenic. Same with Scottish fisherwives and country farmworkers and Welsh countrywomen.
    Yep, my mum’s mum, Annie

    She was a bal maiden in St Agnes on the cliffs, Barefoot, breaking rocks, all weathers. Before WW1

    One of the reasons (IIRC) it persisted so late in Cornwall is because the legislation against child labour in mines was specifically aimed at boys. The London legislators didn’t realise Cornish girls were pressed into toil up at grass, so the mine owners exploited the loophole

    She escaped in her teens, got wed, had eight kids, and died in her early 60s, worn out by motherhood or the early slavery, or both. So I never met her

    My lord, what would she think of me, her grandson, sitting in a bar in Izmir tapping out my twaddle on my iPad. What an unimaginable distance in human experience

    She would have wished you had gained a scholarship to Winchester and became a respectable citizen.
  • Remember when Rishi was the greatest thing since sliced bread, I remember how good @Big_G_NorthWales thought he was. Poor judgment.

    I remember when I was criticised for repeatedly belittling Rishi Sunak.
  • Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    In a sane world, it would have been private schools that were abolished, not grammar schools.

    No, have both.

    Parents get more choice and bright children have more chance of getting into a highly academic state school
    Make the state schools so good the private schools mostly go out of business (some will always survive, because connections)
    My policy is to abolish the Department for Education and give the money direct to parents in terms of vouchers and make every school private.

    My one nation instinct would allow lower income parents to double up their vouchers.

    Wealthier parents could also pay extra.

    Free markets in actions would lead to every school being awesome.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,577
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Memo to massively wealthy Tory politicians, don’t give MORE money to already wildly wealthy and super elitist public schools

    I’d give similar advice to Labour politicians of questionable patriotism: don’t support the IRA and hang out with Hamas

    Nah, it's very easy to defend - "I had a brillliant education at Winchester and I've been donating to a scholarship fund to enable kids who weren't as fortunate as I was when growing up to enable them to get the same benefits I had and with our education plan we will ensure that all kids get the same kind of excellent education I was able to receive"

    It doesn't need more than one line.
    Lol. A totally garbled, implausible line as you try to fit so much bollocks into one line
    But it works because it's aspirational. The Tories are supposed to be the party of aspiration, not holding grudges against rich people.
    So what’s your view on Buu-to-Let investors?
  • Remember when Rishi was the greatest thing since sliced bread, I remember how good @Big_G_NorthWales thought he was. Poor judgment.

    I remember when I was criticised for repeatedly belittling Rishi Sunak.
    I remember saying he was rubbish over a year ago. And yes you did metaphorically as well.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,131
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    What is wrong with that? Winchester is his old school, a top seat of learning and provides scholarships and bursaries the donation will help fund.

    It is his money

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sky-news-tories-b992638.html
    Objectively, it's commendable. Yet it is focussed very much on buttressing the private education system.

    Subjectively, it's a disaster, as it reminds the rest of the UK just how much money the Chancellor has to spare. (And how much tax relief was involved, too?)
    Objectively.. is it?
    Donating money to a cause depends on the worthiness of that cause. Private schools are engines for concentrating the quality of services and delivering them mostly to those who can pay.

    Yes, I know that bursaries exist and the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in, but it's still a system of intentional and intense stratification that benefits the extremely wealthy. It obviously right up HYUFD's street but if you asked me (I know, I know) I could find much better things to do with a spare £100k.
    "...the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in..."

    This is a modern version of the Distressed Gentlefolk* charity. Sure, in theory it's open to anybody but in reality only a very small subset of society, usually with the right connections, would ever have the wherewithal to apply, let alone be successful. It's a sham.

    (*I am probably being unfair to that charity, now sensibly renamed 'Elizabeth Finn Care'.)
    Not so. The recipients of these bursaries are not secret poshos down on their luck, they are the real deal. And quite often getting a shit time from everybody else for their failure to be posh, secretly or otherwise, but that's another story.
    Just exactly how do Winchester, Eton, etc. publicise these bursaries in your average sink estate?
    no idea. Talent scouts?
    Let me help you: They don't.
    Let me help you: you don’t know what you are talking about. Not only do they have very active outreach programmes helping schools and sharing resources they actively promote bursaries and scholarships around the country because funnily enough they actually do want to recruit very bright and able students as it benefits everyone at the school and, if cynical, the reputation of the school when these bright kids get access to places they wouldn’t otherwise and go on to do great things.

    All the major public schools support inner city clubs - Winchester for example supports the Crown and Manor club in London where they arrange exchanges, tutorial help, resources, money and time for kids from some of the shittiest unfortunate backgrounds because funnily enough all public school people aren’t entitled wankers.
    The people aren’t, the institutions are selfish greedy fucks. Winchester is worth 400 million. What the fuck, And they want to be charities? UGH

    Take their charitable status away

    Just one of the many stupidities of what Sunak has done is he has ensured - if this story gains traction (Ukraine might save him) - is that every Tory will now be asked to justify Sunak’s 100k to Winchester. Because he is CoE they will have to defend him, but it will be very awkward, and it will sound like MaxPB’s strangulated nonsense. They won’t thank him for this
    That charitable status helps them fund scholarships and bursaries and providing sports and arts facilities to share with the local community too
    I think you've put the cart before the horse there. As a retired teacher from the independent sector I was aware that the charitable status had been around for many years before the advent of large numbers of scholarships. The development of scholarships etc appeared as a way championed by ISI to justify and retain the charitable status already in place. The main reason for the charitable status was to be let off paying the rates, which was usually enormous. The school still had to pay VAT on the usual items.
    Rate relief has been abolished for private schools in Scotland - came into force this month AIUI. Now treated the same as state schools in that respect.
    And the private schools will thus offer fewer scholarships and become even more the preserve of the rich.

    Great job Sturgeon!
    My kids former school is cutting back on teaching staff and places despite having a waiting list as a result.

    We had a child or children at that school for 20 years. The change was remarkable. Originally dominated by old school money and inherited wealth it, over time it became dominated by people paying their fees from income in despair of the collapse of the state system.
    The ethos changed too. Originally a place you went to make friends of the clique that would see you alright and get a place for you it became focused on results. Those paying the fees from their hard earned want their kids in Russell group unis with a ticket to the professions.

    It would be sad if it slipped back.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Winchester College has £400 MILLION in assets, a figure which has increased by £150 MILLION since 2015

    https://bylinetimes.com/2021/11/25/elite-private-schools-increase-assets-by-more-than-half-a-billion-pounds-in-six-years/

    It earns £27 million a year

    The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is providing over a cost of living crisis that might see people actually go hungry, is worth £500 million, and decided that Winchester College really needed £100,000. Cause they can barely get by, what with being worth £100 million less than him and his wife

    What’s more, he decided this donation was so crucial to Winchester College, which is barely scraping by with its £400 million in assets and £27 million in annual income, he should give this money PUBLICLY, so everyone can see his priorities

    He has been giving this money over the course of 10 years (by 2014, he had given over £25k).....that is what ultra wealthy people do, they give money and get their names on plaques of buildings.

    You can't turn a corner of London without some building, street, monument being named such because somebody once gave some money to charity....
    If Boris had a spare £100k like Rishi, you could be sure he wouldn't be giving it to Eton's scholarship fund but having a huge party of debauchery. Yet Rishi gets the flack
    Because he wanted the warm praise that comes from publicly giving to charity, and now this has come back to haunt him

    I believe there is a Biblical parable with some relevance here
    It was pretty low key giving. he doesn't even put MP after his name, and I challenge you to find a more obscure journal to publicise yourself in, it makes the Flint Knapper's Quarterly look like the News of the World. Not that I mind what happens to him, but this was pure bad luck compounded by pure malice.

    Like many - I suspect - I struggle to feel sorry for the *bad luck* of Rishi “£500 million” Sunak, as he is discovered giving £100,000 to struggling, desperate Winchester “£400 million” College (single sex pre sixth form)
    Sure. I am just exposing the skill with which this has been parlayed into a "Fuck you suckers" bit of post-Spring Statement ostentation when it is nothing of the kind.

    This has prompted me to look at the records of my own school, and I am amazed at some of my contemps who have coughed up and want the alumniariat to know about it. On the vanishingly rare occasions I am overwhelmed
    by the need to give to charity I quite like paying for operations to cure African children of blindness. It seems a better use of the money.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,237

    Remember when Rishi was the greatest thing since sliced bread, I remember how good @Big_G_NorthWales thought he was. Poor judgment.

    I remember when some said his boyish good looks could even save the the Union. Tbf that's been applied to any sentient being that isn't BJ mind.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,580

    Remember when Rishi was the greatest thing since sliced bread, I remember how good @Big_G_NorthWales thought he was. Poor judgment.

    I remember when some said his boyish good looks could even save the the Union. Tbf that's been applied to any sentient being that isn't BJ mind.
    That's not a very nice thing to say about Ruth Davidson.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,335

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    In a sane world, it would have been private schools that were abolished, not grammar schools.

    No, have both.

    Parents get more choice and bright children have more chance of getting into a highly academic state school
    Make the state schools so good the private schools mostly go out of business (some will always survive, because connections)
    My policy is to abolish the Department for Education and give the money direct to parents in terms of vouchers and make every school private.

    My one nation instinct would allow lower income parents to double up their vouchers.

    Wealthier parents could also pay extra.

    Free markets in actions would lead to every school being awesome.
    Free schools at least a move in that direction
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Farooq said:

    boulay said:

    Farooq said:

    Have collected a curry from a local to my MIL's takeaway. They have done a big mail out of their menu with a money off voucher. For cash only transactions.

    I was a wee bit suspicious. When collecting (and paying by card) the guy was quite happy to tell me why the discount is cash only.

    Because if it's a card payment and they give the discount there isn't much left after they pay VAT. So they're not paying VAT on cash orders. Which means they're not putting them through the books. Not paying Corporation Tax.

    Dumb bastards really shouldn't be telling their customers that, they have no idea who might want to shop them for tax evasion...

    Shop them in. I'd do it.
    Too bloody right I will
    No bleeding heart liberal, I, however is it worth considering, instead of dobbing them in you send an anonymous note outlining what they are doing, it’s illegality and “imorality” and point out that they don’t know who you are and you will be sending in friends to check if they are still trying this on?

    Give them a chance to stop rather than potential consequences to owner’s family, the local community etc?

    I’m having an evening of trying to be nice so thought I would suggest it!
    The fact that they've cooked up a ruse to get more cash and fewer card payments means they already know what they're doing is illegal.
    And immorality doesn't really need the quotes. It's definitely wrong. They're pocketing the cash whilst you pay your taxes, so it's you they're stealing off. Fuck em.
    If the voucher says on its face "discount for cash only" just send a copy without explanation or covering letter to the local inspector of taxes. If they can't tell by looking at it what is going on they don't deserve the scalp anyway. I'd be wary of personal involvement on the basis of proximity to your MiL and the danger of the connection being made.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,335
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    In a sane world, it would have been private schools that were abolished, not grammar schools.

    No, have both.

    Parents get more choice and bright children have more chance of getting into a highly academic state school
    Make the state schools so good the private schools mostly go out of business (some will always survive, because connections)
    That will only happen with competition and choice, including some academically selective schools
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,841
    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    What is wrong with that? Winchester is his old school, a top seat of learning and provides scholarships and bursaries the donation will help fund.

    It is his money

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sky-news-tories-b992638.html
    Objectively, it's commendable. Yet it is focussed very much on buttressing the private education system.

    Subjectively, it's a disaster, as it reminds the rest of the UK just how much money the Chancellor has to spare. (And how much tax relief was involved, too?)
    Objectively.. is it?
    Donating money to a cause depends on the worthiness of that cause. Private schools are engines for concentrating the quality of services and delivering them mostly to those who can pay.

    Yes, I know that bursaries exist and the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in, but it's still a system of intentional and intense stratification that benefits the extremely wealthy. It obviously right up HYUFD's street but if you asked me (I know, I know) I could find much better things to do with a spare £100k.
    "...the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in..."

    This is a modern version of the Distressed Gentlefolk* charity. Sure, in theory it's open to anybody but in reality only a very small subset of society, usually with the right connections, would ever have the wherewithal to apply, let alone be successful. It's a sham.

    (*I am probably being unfair to that charity, now sensibly renamed 'Elizabeth Finn Care'.)
    Not so. The recipients of these bursaries are not secret poshos down on their luck, they are the real deal. And quite often getting a shit time from everybody else for their failure to be posh, secretly or otherwise, but that's another story.
    Just exactly how do Winchester, Eton, etc. publicise these bursaries in your average sink estate?
    no idea. Talent scouts?
    Let me help you: They don't.
    Let me help you: you don’t know what you are talking about. Not only do they have very active outreach programmes helping schools and sharing resources they actively promote bursaries and scholarships around the country because funnily enough they actually do want to recruit very bright and able students as it benefits everyone at the school and, if cynical, the reputation of the school when these bright kids get access to places they wouldn’t otherwise and go on to do great things.

    All the major public schools support inner city clubs - Winchester for example supports the Crown and Manor club in London where they arrange exchanges, tutorial help, resources, money and time for kids from some of the shittiest unfortunate backgrounds because funnily enough all public school people aren’t entitled wankers.
    The people aren’t, the institutions are selfish greedy fucks. Winchester is worth 400 million. What the fuck, And they want to be charities? UGH

    Take their charitable status away

    Just one of the many stupidities of what Sunak has done is he has ensured - if this story gains traction (Ukraine might save him) - is that every Tory will now be asked to justify Sunak’s 100k to Winchester. Because he is CoE they will have to defend him, but it will be very awkward, and it will sound like MaxPB’s strangulated nonsense. They won’t thank him for this
    That charitable status helps them fund scholarships and bursaries and providing sports and arts facilities to share with the local community too
    I think you've put the cart before the horse there. As a retired teacher from the independent sector I was aware that the charitable status had been around for many years before the advent of large numbers of scholarships. The development of scholarships etc appeared as a way championed by ISI to justify and retain the charitable status already in place. The main reason for the charitable status was to be let off paying the rates, which was usually enormous. The school still had to pay VAT on the usual items.
    Rate relief has been abolished for private schools in Scotland - came into force this month AIUI. Now treated the same as state schools in that respect.
    And the private schools will thus offer fewer scholarships and become even more the preserve of the rich.

    Great job Sturgeon!
    My kids former school is cutting back on teaching staff and places despite having a waiting list as a result.

    We had a child or children at that school for 20 years. The change was remarkable. Originally dominated by old school money and inherited wealth it, over time it became dominated by people paying their fees from income in despair of the collapse of the state system.
    The ethos changed too. Originally a place you went to make friends of the clique that would see you alright and get a place for you it became focused on results. Those paying the fees from their hard earned want their kids in Russell group unis with a ticket to the professions.

    It would be sad if it slipped back.
    I fully understand why parents would want to buy their kids 'a ticket to the professions' but surely you must see how intrinsically unfair the opportunity to buy such tickets is and how poorly it serves the professions?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Farooq said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    What is wrong with that? Winchester is his old school, a top seat of learning and provides scholarships and bursaries the donation will help fund.

    It is his money

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sky-news-tories-b992638.html
    Objectively, it's commendable. Yet it is focussed very much on buttressing the private education system.

    Subjectively, it's a disaster, as it reminds the rest of the UK just how much money the Chancellor has to spare. (And how much tax relief was involved, too?)
    Objectively.. is it?
    Donating money to a cause depends on the worthiness of that cause. Private schools are engines for concentrating the quality of services and delivering them mostly to those who can pay.

    Yes, I know that bursaries exist and the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in, but it's still a system of intentional and intense stratification that benefits the extremely wealthy. It obviously right up HYUFD's street but if you asked me (I know, I know) I could find much better things to do with a spare £100k.
    "...the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in..."

    This is a modern version of the Distressed Gentlefolk* charity. Sure, in theory it's open to anybody but in reality only a very small subset of society, usually with the right connections, would ever have the wherewithal to apply, let alone be successful. It's a sham.

    (*I am probably being unfair to that charity, now sensibly renamed 'Elizabeth Finn Care'.)
    Not so. The recipients of these bursaries are not secret poshos down on their luck, they are the real deal. And quite often getting a shit time from everybody else for their failure to be posh, secretly or otherwise, but that's another story.
    Just exactly how do Winchester, Eton, etc. publicise these bursaries in your average sink estate?
    no idea. Talent scouts?
    Let me help you: They don't.
    Let me help you: you don’t know what you are talking about. Not only do they have very active outreach programmes helping schools and sharing resources they actively promote bursaries and scholarships around the country because funnily enough they actually do want to recruit very bright and able students as it benefits everyone at the school and, if cynical, the reputation of the school when these bright kids get access to places they wouldn’t otherwise and go on to do great things.

    All the major public schools support inner city clubs - Winchester for example supports the Crown and Manor club in London where they arrange exchanges, tutorial help, resources, money and time for kids from some of the shittiest unfortunate backgrounds because funnily enough all public school people aren’t entitled wankers.
    The people aren’t, the institutions are selfish greedy fucks. Winchester is worth 400 million. What the fuck, And they want to be charities? UGH

    Take their charitable status away

    Just one of the many stupidities of what Sunak has done is he has ensured - if this story gains traction (Ukraine might save him) - is that every Tory will now be asked to justify Sunak’s 100k to Winchester. Because he is CoE they will have to defend him, but it will be very awkward, and it will sound like MaxPB’s strangulated nonsense. They won’t thank him for this
    That charitable status helps them fund scholarships and bursaries and providing sports and arts facilities to share with the local community too
    I think you've put the cart before the horse there. As a retired teacher from the independent sector I was aware that the charitable status had been around for many years before the advent of large numbers of scholarships. The development of scholarships etc appeared as a way championed by ISI to justify and retain the charitable status already in place. The main reason for the charitable status was to be let off paying the rates, which was usually enormous. The school still had to pay VAT on the usual items.
    Rate relief has been abolished for private schools in Scotland - came into force this month AIUI. Now treated the same as state schools in that respect.
    And the private schools will thus offer fewer scholarships and become even more the preserve of the rich.

    Great job Sturgeon!
    My kids former school is cutting back on teaching staff and places despite having a waiting list as a result.

    We had a child or children at that school for 20 years. The change was remarkable. Originally dominated by old school money and inherited wealth it, over time it became dominated by people paying their fees from income in despair of the collapse of the state system.
    The ethos changed too. Originally a place you went to make friends of the clique that would see you alright and get a place for you it became focused on results. Those paying the fees from their hard earned want their kids in Russell group unis with a ticket to the professions.

    It would be sad if it slipped back.
    Oh god this is terrible. I thought cuts were only meant to affect hoi polloi. I had no idea the elites could be affected.
    Ooh, satire.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,841
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    In a sane world, it would have been private schools that were abolished, not grammar schools.

    No, have both.

    Parents get more choice and bright children have more chance of getting into a highly academic state school
    Make the state schools so good the private schools mostly go out of business (some will always survive, because connections)
    Isn't that what they've managed to do in Finland?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,335

    Remember when Rishi was the greatest thing since sliced bread, I remember how good @Big_G_NorthWales thought he was. Poor judgment.

    I remember when some said his boyish good looks could even save the the Union. Tbf that's been applied to any sentient being that isn't BJ mind.

    Well No is on 53% in this week's Survation Scottish independence poll

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1511049569450303496?s=20&t=s6feJWI45tuI18Ty1aVFnQ
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,335

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    In a sane world, it would have been private schools that were abolished, not grammar schools.

    No, have both.

    Parents get more choice and bright children have more chance of getting into a highly academic state school
    Make the state schools so good the private schools mostly go out of business (some will always survive, because connections)
    Isn't that what they've managed to do in Finland?
    Finland has only ever really had a few private religious schools
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,131
    Farooq said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    What is wrong with that? Winchester is his old school, a top seat of learning and provides scholarships and bursaries the donation will help fund.

    It is his money

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sky-news-tories-b992638.html
    Objectively, it's commendable. Yet it is focussed very much on buttressing the private education system.

    Subjectively, it's a disaster, as it reminds the rest of the UK just how much money the Chancellor has to spare. (And how much tax relief was involved, too?)
    Objectively.. is it?
    Donating money to a cause depends on the worthiness of that cause. Private schools are engines for concentrating the quality of services and delivering them mostly to those who can pay.

    Yes, I know that bursaries exist and the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in, but it's still a system of intentional and intense stratification that benefits the extremely wealthy. It obviously right up HYUFD's street but if you asked me (I know, I know) I could find much better things to do with a spare £100k.
    "...the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in..."

    This is a modern version of the Distressed Gentlefolk* charity. Sure, in theory it's open to anybody but in reality only a very small subset of society, usually with the right connections, would ever have the wherewithal to apply, let alone be successful. It's a sham.

    (*I am probably being unfair to that charity, now sensibly renamed 'Elizabeth Finn Care'.)
    Not so. The recipients of these bursaries are not secret poshos down on their luck, they are the real deal. And quite often getting a shit time from everybody else for their failure to be posh, secretly or otherwise, but that's another story.
    Just exactly how do Winchester, Eton, etc. publicise these bursaries in your average sink estate?
    no idea. Talent scouts?
    Let me help you: They don't.
    Let me help you: you don’t know what you are talking about. Not only do they have very active outreach programmes helping schools and sharing resources they actively promote bursaries and scholarships around the country because funnily enough they actually do want to recruit very bright and able students as it benefits everyone at the school and, if cynical, the reputation of the school when these bright kids get access to places they wouldn’t otherwise and go on to do great things.

    All the major public schools support inner city clubs - Winchester for example supports the Crown and Manor club in London where they arrange exchanges, tutorial help, resources, money and time for kids from some of the shittiest unfortunate backgrounds because funnily enough all public school people aren’t entitled wankers.
    The people aren’t, the institutions are selfish greedy fucks. Winchester is worth 400 million. What the fuck, And they want to be charities? UGH

    Take their charitable status away

    Just one of the many stupidities of what Sunak has done is he has ensured - if this story gains traction (Ukraine might save him) - is that every Tory will now be asked to justify Sunak’s 100k to Winchester. Because he is CoE they will have to defend him, but it will be very awkward, and it will sound like MaxPB’s strangulated nonsense. They won’t thank him for this
    That charitable status helps them fund scholarships and bursaries and providing sports and arts facilities to share with the local community too
    I think you've put the cart before the horse there. As a retired teacher from the independent sector I was aware that the charitable status had been around for many years before the advent of large numbers of scholarships. The development of scholarships etc appeared as a way championed by ISI to justify and retain the charitable status already in place. The main reason for the charitable status was to be let off paying the rates, which was usually enormous. The school still had to pay VAT on the usual items.
    Rate relief has been abolished for private schools in Scotland - came into force this month AIUI. Now treated the same as state schools in that respect.
    And the private schools will thus offer fewer scholarships and become even more the preserve of the rich.

    Great job Sturgeon!
    My kids former school is cutting back on teaching staff and places despite having a waiting list as a result.

    We had a child or children at that school for 20 years. The change was remarkable. Originally dominated by old school money and inherited wealth it, over time it became dominated by people paying their fees from income in despair of the collapse of the state system.
    The ethos changed too. Originally a place you went to make friends of the clique that would see you alright and get a place for you it became focused on results. Those paying the fees from their hard earned want their kids in Russell group unis with a ticket to the professions.

    It would be sad if it slipped back.
    Oh god this is terrible. I thought cuts were only meant to affect hoi polloi. I had no idea the elites could be affected.
    This isn’t a cut. It is a completely stupid, self defeating tax increase driven be envy and spite which will result in more kids going to state schools at additional cost to the public purse.

    But whatever.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,995

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    In a sane world, it would have been private schools that were abolished, not grammar schools.

    No, have both.

    Parents get more choice and bright children have more chance of getting into a highly academic state school
    Make the state schools so good the private schools mostly go out of business (some will always survive, because connections)
    My policy is to abolish the Department for Education
    Haven't read the rest but I like it very much already.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,335

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    What is wrong with that? Winchester is his old school, a top seat of learning and provides scholarships and bursaries the donation will help fund.

    It is his money

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sky-news-tories-b992638.html
    Objectively, it's commendable. Yet it is focussed very much on buttressing the private education system.

    Subjectively, it's a disaster, as it reminds the rest of the UK just how much money the Chancellor has to spare. (And how much tax relief was involved, too?)
    Objectively.. is it?
    Donating money to a cause depends on the worthiness of that cause. Private schools are engines for concentrating the quality of services and delivering them mostly to those who can pay.

    Yes, I know that bursaries exist and the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in, but it's still a system of intentional and intense stratification that benefits the extremely wealthy. It obviously right up HYUFD's street but if you asked me (I know, I know) I could find much better things to do with a spare £100k.
    "...the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in..."

    This is a modern version of the Distressed Gentlefolk* charity. Sure, in theory it's open to anybody but in reality only a very small subset of society, usually with the right connections, would ever have the wherewithal to apply, let alone be successful. It's a sham.

    (*I am probably being unfair to that charity, now sensibly renamed 'Elizabeth Finn Care'.)
    Not so. The recipients of these bursaries are not secret poshos down on their luck, they are the real deal. And quite often getting a shit time from everybody else for their failure to be posh, secretly or otherwise, but that's another story.
    Just exactly how do Winchester, Eton, etc. publicise these bursaries in your average sink estate?
    no idea. Talent scouts?
    Let me help you: They don't.
    Let me help you: you don’t know what you are talking about. Not only do they have very active outreach programmes helping schools and sharing resources they actively promote bursaries and scholarships around the country because funnily enough they actually do want to recruit very bright and able students as it benefits everyone at the school and, if cynical, the reputation of the school when these bright kids get access to places they wouldn’t otherwise and go on to do great things.

    All the major public schools support inner city clubs - Winchester for example supports the Crown and Manor club in London where they arrange exchanges, tutorial help, resources, money and time for kids from some of the shittiest unfortunate backgrounds because funnily enough all public school people aren’t entitled wankers.
    The people aren’t, the institutions are selfish greedy fucks. Winchester is worth 400 million. What the fuck, And they want to be charities? UGH

    Take their charitable status away

    Just one of the many stupidities of what Sunak has done is he has ensured - if this story gains traction (Ukraine might save him) - is that every Tory will now be asked to justify Sunak’s 100k to Winchester. Because he is CoE they will have to defend him, but it will be very awkward, and it will sound like MaxPB’s strangulated nonsense. They won’t thank him for this
    That charitable status helps them fund scholarships and bursaries and providing sports and arts facilities to share with the local community too
    I think you've put the cart before the horse there. As a retired teacher from the independent sector I was aware that the charitable status had been around for many years before the advent of large numbers of scholarships. The development of scholarships etc appeared as a way championed by ISI to justify and retain the charitable status already in place. The main reason for the charitable status was to be let off paying the rates, which was usually enormous. The school still had to pay VAT on the usual items.
    Rate relief has been abolished for private schools in Scotland - came into force this month AIUI. Now treated the same as state schools in that respect.
    And the private schools will thus offer fewer scholarships and become even more the preserve of the rich.

    Great job Sturgeon!
    My kids former school is cutting back on teaching staff and places despite having a waiting list as a result.

    We had a child or children at that school for 20 years. The change was remarkable. Originally dominated by old school money and inherited wealth it, over time it became dominated by people paying their fees from income in despair of the collapse of the state system.
    The ethos changed too. Originally a place you went to make friends of the clique that would see you alright and get a place for you it became focused on results. Those paying the fees from their hard earned want their kids in Russell group unis with a ticket to the professions.

    It would be sad if it slipped back.
    I fully understand why parents would want to buy their kids 'a ticket to the professions' but surely you must see how intrinsically unfair the opportunity to buy such tickets is and how poorly it serves the professions?
    When we had more grammar schools everyone had the chance of that ticket, regardless of parental income, if they were bright enough
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,878

    Remember when Rishi was the greatest thing since sliced bread, I remember how good @Big_G_NorthWales thought he was. Poor judgment.

    I remember when some said his boyish good looks could even save the the Union. Tbf that's been applied to any sentient being that isn't BJ mind.

    He was always too small, anyway

    As @Dura_Ace memorably phrased it, “The British people will never vote for a fucking Borrower”
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,995
    Leon said:

    Remember when Rishi was the greatest thing since sliced bread, I remember how good @Big_G_NorthWales thought he was. Poor judgment.

    I remember when some said his boyish good looks could even save the the Union. Tbf that's been applied to any sentient being that isn't BJ mind.

    He was always too small, anyway

    As @Dura_Ace memorably phrased it, “The British people will never vote for a fucking Borrower”
    Well,his budget certainly won't make him a net Lender.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,131

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    Rishi's star falls further as he donates £100, 000 to Winchester School

    He has astonished me and Boris needs to move him on

    So out of touch

    What is wrong with that? Winchester is his old school, a top seat of learning and provides scholarships and bursaries the donation will help fund.

    It is his money

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/sky-news-tories-b992638.html
    Objectively, it's commendable. Yet it is focussed very much on buttressing the private education system.

    Subjectively, it's a disaster, as it reminds the rest of the UK just how much money the Chancellor has to spare. (And how much tax relief was involved, too?)
    Objectively.. is it?
    Donating money to a cause depends on the worthiness of that cause. Private schools are engines for concentrating the quality of services and delivering them mostly to those who can pay.

    Yes, I know that bursaries exist and the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in, but it's still a system of intentional and intense stratification that benefits the extremely wealthy. It obviously right up HYUFD's street but if you asked me (I know, I know) I could find much better things to do with a spare £100k.
    "...the poor but brilliant gold ticket winner can get in..."

    This is a modern version of the Distressed Gentlefolk* charity. Sure, in theory it's open to anybody but in reality only a very small subset of society, usually with the right connections, would ever have the wherewithal to apply, let alone be successful. It's a sham.

    (*I am probably being unfair to that charity, now sensibly renamed 'Elizabeth Finn Care'.)
    Not so. The recipients of these bursaries are not secret poshos down on their luck, they are the real deal. And quite often getting a shit time from everybody else for their failure to be posh, secretly or otherwise, but that's another story.
    Just exactly how do Winchester, Eton, etc. publicise these bursaries in your average sink estate?
    no idea. Talent scouts?
    Let me help you: They don't.
    Let me help you: you don’t know what you are talking about. Not only do they have very active outreach programmes helping schools and sharing resources they actively promote bursaries and scholarships around the country because funnily enough they actually do want to recruit very bright and able students as it benefits everyone at the school and, if cynical, the reputation of the school when these bright kids get access to places they wouldn’t otherwise and go on to do great things.

    All the major public schools support inner city clubs - Winchester for example supports the Crown and Manor club in London where they arrange exchanges, tutorial help, resources, money and time for kids from some of the shittiest unfortunate backgrounds because funnily enough all public school people aren’t entitled wankers.
    The people aren’t, the institutions are selfish greedy fucks. Winchester is worth 400 million. What the fuck, And they want to be charities? UGH

    Take their charitable status away

    Just one of the many stupidities of what Sunak has done is he has ensured - if this story gains traction (Ukraine might save him) - is that every Tory will now be asked to justify Sunak’s 100k to Winchester. Because he is CoE they will have to defend him, but it will be very awkward, and it will sound like MaxPB’s strangulated nonsense. They won’t thank him for this
    That charitable status helps them fund scholarships and bursaries and providing sports and arts facilities to share with the local community too
    I think you've put the cart before the horse there. As a retired teacher from the independent sector I was aware that the charitable status had been around for many years before the advent of large numbers of scholarships. The development of scholarships etc appeared as a way championed by ISI to justify and retain the charitable status already in place. The main reason for the charitable status was to be let off paying the rates, which was usually enormous. The school still had to pay VAT on the usual items.
    Rate relief has been abolished for private schools in Scotland - came into force this month AIUI. Now treated the same as state schools in that respect.
    And the private schools will thus offer fewer scholarships and become even more the preserve of the rich.

    Great job Sturgeon!
    My kids former school is cutting back on teaching staff and places despite having a waiting list as a result.

    We had a child or children at that school for 20 years. The change was remarkable. Originally dominated by old school money and inherited wealth it, over time it became dominated by people paying their fees from income in despair of the collapse of the state system.
    The ethos changed too. Originally a place you went to make friends of the clique that would see you alright and get a place for you it became focused on results. Those paying the fees from their hard earned want their kids in Russell group unis with a ticket to the professions.

    It would be sad if it slipped back.
    I fully understand why parents would want to buy their kids 'a ticket to the professions' but surely you must see how intrinsically unfair the opportunity to buy such tickets is and how poorly it serves the professions?
    It is unfair yes. But I am not so sure it’s bad for the professions. They need people who have had a useful and thorough education and that is becoming increasingly rare in Scotland.
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