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Is a new law really necessary? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,049
edited April 2022 in General
imageIs a new law really necessary? – politicalbetting.com

Lawyers are very polite people. So polite in fact that it can be hard for the non-lawyer to realise when lawyers are being really quite rude, especially about other lawyers. And even more especially about Dominic Raab, who continues to miss even the low bars set for him. Such was the case recently over his plans to change the Human Rights Act, a perennial bugbear of the Tory right. Despite the endless ill-informed comments about this legislation from successive Tory Home Secretaries (usually at party conferences where accuracy is less important than audience-pleasing soundbites), there have been at least 3 reviews of the Act since 2010, all of which concluded that there was no “compelling evidence of a problem” or “viable proposals for reform“. Never mind. Raab needs to find something to do at the Ministry of Justice. But rather than sorting out the virtual collapse of the criminal justice system, he published his proposals to introduce a bill of rights last December just as Partygate was kicking off. The consultation closed on 8 March. Raab thanked Sir Peter Goss, a retired judge appointed to review the Act, for his work which, he said, had informed his thinking. (The judge had said that the HRA generally worked well but would work even better with his proposed changes. These proposals too were published last December.)Unfortunately, Raab completely ignored the judge’s proposals. This week the judge hit back. “The reaction of government has been to produce the Ministry of Justice consultation paper, which does not respond to ours, is not grounded in anything even approximating the exercise we conducted, but nevertheless asserts that the Human Rights Act is not working well.” Ouch! This is the judicial equivalent of “It’s a load of old rubbish. File in the bin.” Even Robert Buckland, Raab’s predecessor, gave him a kicking saying his proposals were pointless (“very 2015” Ouch again!) and a solution to a problem which no longer existed, if it ever did. This last comment goes to the heart of why so many proposed new laws so often achieve little – and can do great harm.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,077
    Great piece Cyclefree. Thank you.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,077
    This is sickening. From the BBC:

    'Russian schoolchildren report teacher for anti-war comments - local media

    A Russian schoolteacher has been arrested after being reported to police by her pupils for making anti-war comments, according to local media.

    The teenagers in the southern city of Penza are said to have recorded a conversation with Irina Gen, their English teacher, on 18 March.

    They were apparently upset that a planned sports trip to the Czech Republic was not going ahead and asked Ms Gen for her opinion.

    According to an alleged transcript of the conversation published by the Meduza website, she said it was right that the trip had been cancelled and that such things would continue until Russia "started behaving in a civilised way".

    The 55-year-old compared the country to North Korea and "expressed a view of the war in Ukraine different from the official one", Meduza said.

    It is thought Ms Gen could face a fine of up to $60,000 or a jail term of up to 10 years.'
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,077
    And I see that the wonderful Sean Penn has been calling for a No Fly Zone, demonstrating that it's entirely plausible and logical to be left of centre and want to support Zelensky.

    It's about common humanity and humanitarianism, whatever the personal cost.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,229
    Heathener said:

    And I see that the wonderful Sean Penn has been calling for a No Fly Zone, demonstrating that it's entirely plausible and logical to be left of centre and want to support Zelensky.

    It's about common humanity and humanitarianism, whatever the personal cost.

    Would that be serial abuser Sean Penn? Or is it a different one?
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    Good header as we've come to expect.

    Point 2 would have ruled out plenty of new laws passed to show the government was Doing Something when behaviour that was already generally illegal if not often prosecuted was made specifically illegal. Upskirting comes to mind.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,508
    Fantastic headline in the Sun about the footie and England's WC draw.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-60960123
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    edited April 2022
    FPT on Ghislaine Maxwell - no appeal judge is going to throw out the conviction despite the (at best) shoddy behaviour of this juror. She is Obviously A Wrong Un and judges are human - they won't want the media abuse (and possibly worse) that they would get for throwing it out on a technicality.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,508
    Heathener said:

    And I see that the wonderful Sean Penn has been calling for a No Fly Zone, demonstrating that it's entirely plausible and logical to be left of centre and want to support Zelensky.

    It's about common humanity and humanitarianism, whatever the personal cost.

    "Common humanity" - that a NFZ would put seriously at risk.

    "Whatever the personal cost" - really? "Whatever"?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    - “It’s law-making as Escher might draw it.”

    The English constitution is broken.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,018

    - “It’s law-making as Escher might draw it.”

    The English constitution is broken.

    English and Welsh constitution.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,256
    rcs1000 said:

    Heathener said:

    And I see that the wonderful Sean Penn has been calling for a No Fly Zone, demonstrating that it's entirely plausible and logical to be left of centre and want to support Zelensky.

    It's about common humanity and humanitarianism, whatever the personal cost.

    Would that be serial abuser Sean Penn? Or is it a different one?
    This one I think: https://youtu.be/X965m_hQZHg
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,229
    TOPPING said:

    Heathener said:

    And I see that the wonderful Sean Penn has been calling for a No Fly Zone, demonstrating that it's entirely plausible and logical to be left of centre and want to support Zelensky.

    It's about common humanity and humanitarianism, whatever the personal cost.

    "Common humanity" - that a NFZ would put seriously at risk.

    "Whatever the personal cost" - really? "Whatever"?
    Please, Sean Penn's struggles are Ukraine's struggle.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,229

    rcs1000 said:

    Heathener said:

    And I see that the wonderful Sean Penn has been calling for a No Fly Zone, demonstrating that it's entirely plausible and logical to be left of centre and want to support Zelensky.

    It's about common humanity and humanitarianism, whatever the personal cost.

    Would that be serial abuser Sean Penn? Or is it a different one?
    This one I think: https://youtu.be/X965m_hQZHg
    This video is unavailable.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,256
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Heathener said:

    And I see that the wonderful Sean Penn has been calling for a No Fly Zone, demonstrating that it's entirely plausible and logical to be left of centre and want to support Zelensky.

    It's about common humanity and humanitarianism, whatever the personal cost.

    Would that be serial abuser Sean Penn? Or is it a different one?
    This one I think: https://youtu.be/X965m_hQZHg
    This video is unavailable.
    Possibly restricted outside UK? It’s the deathless ‘Sean Penn Blues’ anyway.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,256
    TOPPING said:

    Fantastic headline in the Sun about the footie and England's WC draw.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-60960123

    That really is class! Good to see that the headline writer’s art is not altogether dead.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,478
    Have we covered this yet?

    "Labour staff 'gagged' over sexual harassment claims"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60940971
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,109
    Great header, and good to see joined up government (apart from the conflict between the proposed legislation).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,761

    TOPPING said:

    Fantastic headline in the Sun about the footie and England's WC draw.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-60960123

    That really is class! Good to see that the headline writer’s art is not altogether dead.
    Neither is the arrogance of England supporters. Those will be tough games.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    TOPPING said:

    Fantastic headline in the Sun about the footie and England's WC draw.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-60960123

    That really is class! Good to see that the headline writer’s art is not altogether dead.
    Brings to mind this one, though.


  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Fantastic headline in the Sun about the footie and England's WC draw.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-60960123

    That really is class! Good to see that the headline writer’s art is not altogether dead.
    Neither is the arrogance of England supporters. Those will be tough games.
    It's surely not arrogant to say that the draw is about as kind as it could possibly have been.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,256
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Fantastic headline in the Sun about the footie and England's WC draw.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-60960123

    That really is class! Good to see that the headline writer’s art is not altogether dead.
    Neither is the arrogance of England supporters. Those will be tough games.
    Definitely. Early flight back home after defeat by Ukraine is distinctly possible. At least the Premier League would be pleased.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,649
    edited April 2022

    - “It’s law-making as Escher might draw it.”

    The English constitution is broken.

    You can't break what doesn't exist, Stuart.

    On topic, Cyclefree has described a classic of Politicians' Logic:

    We must do something.

    This is something.

    Therefore, we must do this.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,742
    Applicant said:

    FPT on Ghislaine Maxwell - no appeal judge is going to throw out the conviction despite the (at best) shoddy behaviour of this juror. She is Obviously A Wrong Un and judges are human - they won't want the media abuse (and possibly worse) that they would get for throwing it out on a technicality.

    Nothing can be allowed to get in the way of the timetable for her "suicide".....
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 2,978
    edited April 2022
    Heathener said:

    This is sickening. From the BBC:

    'Russian schoolchildren report teacher for anti-war comments - local media

    A Russian schoolteacher has been arrested after being reported to police by her pupils for making anti-war comments, according to local media.

    The teenagers in the southern city of Penza are said to have recorded a conversation with Irina Gen, their English teacher, on 18 March.

    They were apparently upset that a planned sports trip to the Czech Republic was not going ahead and asked Ms Gen for her opinion.

    According to an alleged transcript of the conversation published by the Meduza website, she said it was right that the trip had been cancelled and that such things would continue until Russia "started behaving in a civilised way".

    The 55-year-old compared the country to North Korea and "expressed a view of the war in Ukraine different from the official one", Meduza said.

    It is thought Ms Gen could face a fine of up to $60,000 or a jail term of up to 10 years.'

    Unfortunately this is indicative of much of Russian society. Many Russians say that the country needs a "strong leader", but every time they end up with a bunch of snivelling cowards who grovel to any tyrant that shows them the whip. It is this fundamental lack of personal responsibility that lies at the heart of Russia´s broken political culture. So now Russia is under the control of not just the "crooks and theives" but murderers and torturers like Kadyrov not to mention the rapists on the front line.

    However few societies cope with defeat unchanged, and if the casualties and equipment losses are anywhere close to the Ukrainian figures then Russia will struggle to renew the offensive in the Donbas. After that perhaps the people of Russia will begin to face up to the moral crisis of the country. However it may take much time and considerable pressure from outside. The world is beginning to understand that Pushkin does not make up for Putin, nor Prokofiev for Stalin. "Nigeria with nukes" is a pretty evil place these days and the West will need to remain alert and determined.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,109
    edited April 2022

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Fantastic headline in the Sun about the footie and England's WC draw.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-60960123

    That really is class! Good to see that the headline writer’s art is not altogether dead.
    Neither is the arrogance of England supporters. Those will be tough games.
    Definitely. Early flight back home after defeat by Ukraine is distinctly possible. At least the Premier League would be pleased.
    I see what you did there :wink: The top two teams go through to the Round of 16. England does have an easy draw at first but things look far harder from the quarter-finals onwards, as you'd expect in a World Cup.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,109
    Anecdata: lots of people are complaining about lingering post-Covid symptoms after what is supposed to be a mild variant.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,742

    Have we covered this yet?

    "Labour staff 'gagged' over sexual harassment claims"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60940971

    Labour just thought they were gagging for it?

    Good on them for refusing to sign and going public. But I fear they are now going to see more examples of misogynistic behaviour from some leftist keyboard warriorsNeanderthal trolls.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,511

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Fantastic headline in the Sun about the footie and England's WC draw.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-60960123

    That really is class! Good to see that the headline writer’s art is not altogether dead.
    Neither is the arrogance of England supporters. Those will be tough games.
    Definitely. Early flight back home after defeat by Ukraine is distinctly possible. At least the Premier League would be pleased.
    England have realistic ambitions to win it. Iran first up might be tricky because such matches almost always are, but it should be a win for England if they’re focused on going all the way. Then the US, who at some point England surely must beat. Finally if as you say it’s Ukraine, England beat them 4-0 last summer in the Euros with the score line failing to do justice to the gulf in performances.

    But… possible knockout draw looks tricky. Senegal, France, Belgium then Brazil.

    If I was Scotland or Wales I’d be looking at that draw and thinking there’s a really good chance of making the knockouts for the first time in 64 years for the Welsh and the first time ever for Scotland. With a likely match against the Netherlands who aren’t what they were and beatable with a fair rub. Followed by a glamour match against Messi’s Argentina.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,256
    Cicero said:

    Heathener said:

    This is sickening. From the BBC:

    'Russian schoolchildren report teacher for anti-war comments - local media

    A Russian schoolteacher has been arrested after being reported to police by her pupils for making anti-war comments, according to local media.

    The teenagers in the southern city of Penza are said to have recorded a conversation with Irina Gen, their English teacher, on 18 March.

    They were apparently upset that a planned sports trip to the Czech Republic was not going ahead and asked Ms Gen for her opinion.

    According to an alleged transcript of the conversation published by the Meduza website, she said it was right that the trip had been cancelled and that such things would continue until Russia "started behaving in a civilised way".

    The 55-year-old compared the country to North Korea and "expressed a view of the war in Ukraine different from the official one", Meduza said.

    It is thought Ms Gen could face a fine of up to $60,000 or a jail term of up to 10 years.'

    Unfortunately this is indicative of much of Russian society. Many Russians say that the country needs a "strong leader", but every time they end up with a bunch of snivelling cowards who grovel to any tyrant that shows them the whip. It is this fundamental lack of personal responsibility that lies at the heart of Russia´s broken political culture. So now Russia is under the control of not just the "crooks and theives" but murderers and torturers like Kadyrov not to mention the rapists on the front line.

    However few societies cope with defeat unchanged, and if the casualties and equipment losses are anywhere close to the Ukrainian figures then Russia will struggle to renew the offensive in the Donbas. After that perhaps the people of Russia will begin to face up to the moral crisis of the country. However it may take much time and considerable pressure from outside. The world is beginning to understand that Pushkin does not make up for Putin, nor Prokofiev for Stalin. "Nigeria with nukes" is a pretty evil place these days and the West will need to remain alert and determined.
    A notable feature of Russia’s decline in the twentieth century is the dearth of great artists, composers and writers that were so abundant in the late 19th and early 20th century. Prokofiev and Shostakovich, like Stravinsky were born into pre-Soviet Russia. Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky were giants of 19th century literature. They’ve not come close to producing anyone of similar stature since.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,649

    Have we covered this yet?

    "Labour staff 'gagged' over sexual harassment claims"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60940971

    An unfortunate choice of word in the headline...

    Interesting as well to see that one of the complainants was Laura Murray. I wonder if the stress she was clearly under at the time played a part in her very strange behaviour towards Rachel Riley?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    London
    Lab 50%
    Con 23%
    LD 9%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 6%

    Rest of South
    Con 42%
    Lab 33%
    LD 13%
    Grn 5%
    Ref 5%

    Midlands and Wales
    Lab 35%
    Con 35%
    Grn 7%
    LD 7%
    Ref 6%
    PC 5%

    North
    Lab 49%
    Con 31%
    LD 7%
    Grn 6%
    Ref 5%

    Scotland
    SNP 56%
    Con 17%
    Lab 13%
    Grn 4%
    Ref 3%
    LD 3%

    Propensity to cast a vote - Absolutely certain to vote (10/10):

    Scotland 67%
    London 61%
    Rest of South 50%
    Midlands and Wales 50%
    North 50%

    Remain voters 67%
    Leave voters 55%

    Boris Johnson is best prime minister:

    Rest of South 32%
    Midlands and Wales 31%
    London 26%
    North 23%
    Scotland 12%

    (YouGov / The Times; Sample Size: 2,006; Fieldwork: 29-30 March 2022)
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,256

    Have we covered this yet?

    "Labour staff 'gagged' over sexual harassment claims"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60940971

    Labour just thought they were gagging for it?

    Good on them for refusing to sign and going public. But I fear they are now going to see more examples of misogynistic behaviour from some leftist keyboard warriorsNeanderthal trolls.
    Dreadful case, but the blight of NDAs goes far wider than just ‘leftists’. They are a function of HR departments thinking that their job is to protect the reputation of their organisation, rather than the wellbeing of the people who work for it.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    tlg86 said:

    - “It’s law-making as Escher might draw it.”

    The English constitution is broken.

    English and Welsh constitution.
    Bagehot ups a few rpm.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,649

    Have we covered this yet?

    "Labour staff 'gagged' over sexual harassment claims"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60940971

    Labour just thought they were gagging for it?

    Good on them for refusing to sign and going public. But I fear they are now going to see more examples of misogynistic behaviour from some leftist keyboard warriorsNeanderthal trolls.
    Dreadful case, but the blight of NDAs goes far wider than just ‘leftists’. They are a function of HR departments thinking that their job is to protect the reputation of their organisation, rather than the wellbeing of the people who work for it.
    I know Theresa May tried to change the laws around NDAs to make it a criminal offence to use them for any purpose other than to protect trade secrets. Did she actually get that through or was it lost when Johnson took over?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,256
    ydoethur said:

    Have we covered this yet?

    "Labour staff 'gagged' over sexual harassment claims"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60940971

    Labour just thought they were gagging for it?

    Good on them for refusing to sign and going public. But I fear they are now going to see more examples of misogynistic behaviour from some leftist keyboard warriorsNeanderthal trolls.
    Dreadful case, but the blight of NDAs goes far wider than just ‘leftists’. They are a function of HR departments thinking that their job is to protect the reputation of their organisation, rather than the wellbeing of the people who work for it.
    I know Theresa May tried to change the laws around NDAs to make it a criminal offence to use them for any purpose other than to protect trade secrets. Did she actually get that through or was it lost when Johnson took over?
    Can’t think why Johnson would be personally less keen on that piece of legislation?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,649

    ydoethur said:

    Have we covered this yet?

    "Labour staff 'gagged' over sexual harassment claims"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60940971

    Labour just thought they were gagging for it?

    Good on them for refusing to sign and going public. But I fear they are now going to see more examples of misogynistic behaviour from some leftist keyboard warriorsNeanderthal trolls.
    Dreadful case, but the blight of NDAs goes far wider than just ‘leftists’. They are a function of HR departments thinking that their job is to protect the reputation of their organisation, rather than the wellbeing of the people who work for it.
    I know Theresa May tried to change the laws around NDAs to make it a criminal offence to use them for any purpose other than to protect trade secrets. Did she actually get that through or was it lost when Johnson took over?
    Can’t think why Johnson would be personally less keen on that piece of legislation?
    Or Cummings, for the matter of that.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    ydoethur said:

    - “It’s law-making as Escher might draw it.”

    The English constitution is broken.

    You can't break what doesn't exist, Stuart.
    If it looks like a constitution, swims like a constitution, and quacks like a constitution, then it probably is a constitution.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,649

    ydoethur said:

    - “It’s law-making as Escher might draw it.”

    The English constitution is broken.

    You can't break what doesn't exist, Stuart.
    If it looks like a constitution, swims like a constitution, and quacks like a constitution, then it probably is a constitution.
    It was the 'England' part I was questioning...
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,256
    moonshine said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Fantastic headline in the Sun about the footie and England's WC draw.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-60960123

    That really is class! Good to see that the headline writer’s art is not altogether dead.
    Neither is the arrogance of England supporters. Those will be tough games.
    Definitely. Early flight back home after defeat by Ukraine is distinctly possible. At least the Premier League would be pleased.
    England have realistic ambitions to win it. Iran first up might be tricky because such matches almost always are, but it should be a win for England if they’re focused on going all the way. Then the US, who at some point England surely must beat. Finally if as you say it’s Ukraine, England beat them 4-0 last summer in the Euros with the score line failing to do justice to the gulf in performances.

    But… possible knockout draw looks tricky. Senegal, France, Belgium then Brazil.

    If I was Scotland or Wales I’d be looking at that draw and thinking there’s a really good chance of making the knockouts for the first time in 64 years for the Welsh and the first time ever for Scotland. With a likely match against the Netherlands who aren’t what they were and beatable with a fair rub. Followed by a glamour match against Messi’s Argentina.
    A reasonable analysis. But I’d just note that there will be a very different context, and level of support, for Ukraine when they next step out onto a football pitch. Even though I’m an England supporter, I think I might be inclined to cross sides for that one.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,481
    The miseries of this war never end. Telegraph reporting that at least one RU soldier has died of radiation sickness thanks to camping and digging trenches at the Chernobyl plant.

    Incredibly, Russians mostly don't know about the incident or the plant or what the situation is at the moment. So they probably just had no idea what they were getting into.


  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,256

    The miseries of this war never end. Telegraph reporting that at least one RU soldier has died of radiation sickness thanks to camping and digging trenches at the Chernobyl plant.

    Incredibly, Russians mostly don't know about the incident or the plant or what the situation is at the moment. So they probably just had no idea what they were getting into.


    Who’d have guessed that the ground round there could be irradiated?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,018
    Applicant said:

    TOPPING said:

    Fantastic headline in the Sun about the footie and England's WC draw.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-60960123

    That really is class! Good to see that the headline writer’s art is not altogether dead.
    Brings to mind this one, though.


    To be fair, they were right. It was so easy that even a truly terrible England team managed to get out of it.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    moonshine said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Fantastic headline in the Sun about the footie and England's WC draw.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-60960123

    That really is class! Good to see that the headline writer’s art is not altogether dead.
    Neither is the arrogance of England supporters. Those will be tough games.
    Definitely. Early flight back home after defeat by Ukraine is distinctly possible. At least the Premier League would be pleased.
    England have realistic ambitions to win it. Iran first up might be tricky because such matches almost always are, but it should be a win for England if they’re focused on going all the way. Then the US, who at some point England surely must beat. Finally if as you say it’s Ukraine, England beat them 4-0 last summer in the Euros with the score line failing to do justice to the gulf in performances.

    But… possible knockout draw looks tricky. Senegal, France, Belgium then Brazil.

    If I was Scotland or Wales I’d be looking at that draw and thinking there’s a really good chance of making the knockouts for the first time in 64 years for the Welsh and the first time ever for Scotland. With a likely match against the Netherlands who aren’t what they were and beatable with a fair rub. Followed by a glamour match against Messi’s Argentina.
    A reasonable analysis. But I’d just note that there will be a very different context, and level of support, for Ukraine when they next step out onto a football pitch. Even though I’m an England supporter, I think I might be inclined to cross sides for that one.
    England should be helped by the order of the games, especially with 4 points very likely to be enough. Iran first, and they might have all their focus on the game against the Great Satan. The US aren't anywhere near as good as they have been, although there's always the risk that they'll see that game as more important as England will (see also: Scotland at Wembley last year).

    On paper, both UEFA teams should win both of the first two games leaving the final group game just for seeding.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,215
    I am not sure that people see the 'Human Rights Act' as a cause of societal ills, in the way that they did when a significant part of the population were brainwashed en masse by propaganda in the Sun and the Daily Mail. That generation is simply dying out and becoming more and more irrelevant. They had their final moment with Brexit, which they claim for themselves but was not really their victory - it was helped along by other types of clever online advertising/propoganda, and since then they have been in freefall.

    When people look in to this, two things will become apparent - firstly that the Human Rights Act is a useful curb on the excesses of state power, the necessity of which is quite clear following various recent acts by the government. And secondly, it really just transposes international law, which we are still subject to. So all the government are doing with this is a form of desperate posturing, as a form of distraction from real problems in the justice system that their predecessors caused, and now need solving.


  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,511

    moonshine said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Fantastic headline in the Sun about the footie and England's WC draw.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-60960123

    That really is class! Good to see that the headline writer’s art is not altogether dead.
    Neither is the arrogance of England supporters. Those will be tough games.
    Definitely. Early flight back home after defeat by Ukraine is distinctly possible. At least the Premier League would be pleased.
    England have realistic ambitions to win it. Iran first up might be tricky because such matches almost always are, but it should be a win for England if they’re focused on going all the way. Then the US, who at some point England surely must beat. Finally if as you say it’s Ukraine, England beat them 4-0 last summer in the Euros with the score line failing to do justice to the gulf in performances.

    But… possible knockout draw looks tricky. Senegal, France, Belgium then Brazil.

    If I was Scotland or Wales I’d be looking at that draw and thinking there’s a really good chance of making the knockouts for the first time in 64 years for the Welsh and the first time ever for Scotland. With a likely match against the Netherlands who aren’t what they were and beatable with a fair rub. Followed by a glamour match against Messi’s Argentina.
    A reasonable analysis. But I’d just note that there will be a very different context, and level of support, for Ukraine when they next step out onto a football pitch. Even though I’m an England supporter, I think I might be inclined to cross sides for that one.
    Maybe. Sport doesn’t like following the script though. We just think it does because of a small handful of occasions from history such as Jesse Owens in Nazi Germany and the surviving Busby Babes 10 years after the crash etc…
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    - “It’s law-making as Escher might draw it.”

    The English constitution is broken.

    You can't break what doesn't exist, Stuart.
    If it looks like a constitution, swims like a constitution, and quacks like a constitution, then it probably is a constitution.
    It was the 'England' part I was questioning...
    If England looks like a country, swims like a country, and quacks like a country, then it probably is a country.

    Next you’ll be after telling us that bears don’t defecate in forested habitats.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,649

    The miseries of this war never end. Telegraph reporting that at least one RU soldier has died of radiation sickness thanks to camping and digging trenches at the Chernobyl plant.

    Incredibly, Russians mostly don't know about the incident or the plant or what the situation is at the moment. So they probably just had no idea what they were getting into.


    Who’d have guessed that the ground round there could be irradiated?
    Well, I suppose if you were never taught about it, never knew where it happened and had no understanding of radioactivity, it would be rather difficult to guess the said ground would be irradiated.

    And give the level of official secrecy on Chernobyl within the Soviet Union, followed by the reluctance of Russia to talk about embarrassing moments from its past, it may be that most of them genuinely did not know what they were getting into.

    Which in its own way makes it all the more tragic.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,649

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    - “It’s law-making as Escher might draw it.”

    The English constitution is broken.

    You can't break what doesn't exist, Stuart.
    If it looks like a constitution, swims like a constitution, and quacks like a constitution, then it probably is a constitution.
    It was the 'England' part I was questioning...
    If England looks like a country, swims like a country, and quacks like a country, then it probably is a country.

    Next you’ll be after telling us that bears don’t defecate in forested habitats.
    Well, plenty of them don't:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_bear
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    darkage said:

    I am not sure that people see the 'Human Rights Act' as a cause of societal ills, in the way that they did when a significant part of the population were brainwashed en masse by propaganda in the Sun and the Daily Mail. That generation is simply dying out and becoming more and more irrelevant. They had their final moment with Brexit, which they claim for themselves but was not really their victory - it was helped along by other types of clever online advertising/propoganda, and since then they have been in freefall.

    When people look in to this, two things will become apparent - firstly that the Human Rights Act is a useful curb on the excesses of state power, the necessity of which is quite clear following various recent acts by the government. And secondly, it really just transposes international law, which we are still subject to. So all the government are doing with this is a form of desperate posturing, as a form of distraction from real problems in the justice system that their predecessors caused, and now need solving.


    Not sure what your point is about international law but it is wrong. Treaties to which we are party are part of our law only if they are implemented by statute.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,215
    Cicero said:

    Heathener said:

    This is sickening. From the BBC:

    'Russian schoolchildren report teacher for anti-war comments - local media

    A Russian schoolteacher has been arrested after being reported to police by her pupils for making anti-war comments, according to local media.

    The teenagers in the southern city of Penza are said to have recorded a conversation with Irina Gen, their English teacher, on 18 March.

    They were apparently upset that a planned sports trip to the Czech Republic was not going ahead and asked Ms Gen for her opinion.

    According to an alleged transcript of the conversation published by the Meduza website, she said it was right that the trip had been cancelled and that such things would continue until Russia "started behaving in a civilised way".

    The 55-year-old compared the country to North Korea and "expressed a view of the war in Ukraine different from the official one", Meduza said.

    It is thought Ms Gen could face a fine of up to $60,000 or a jail term of up to 10 years.'

    Unfortunately this is indicative of much of Russian society. Many Russians say that the country needs a "strong leader", but every time they end up with a bunch of snivelling cowards who grovel to any tyrant that shows them the whip. It is this fundamental lack of personal responsibility that lies at the heart of Russia´s broken political culture. So now Russia is under the control of not just the "crooks and theives" but murderers and torturers like Kadyrov not to mention the rapists on the front line.

    However few societies cope with defeat unchanged, and if the casualties and equipment losses are anywhere close to the Ukrainian figures then Russia will struggle to renew the offensive in the Donbas. After that perhaps the people of Russia will begin to face up to the moral crisis of the country. However it may take much time and considerable pressure from outside. The world is beginning to understand that Pushkin does not make up for Putin, nor Prokofiev for Stalin. "Nigeria with nukes" is a pretty evil place these days and the West will need to remain alert and determined.
    It is tragic what has happened to Russia. It feels like it needs to be completely broken - defeat of Hitler style - before it can somehow rebuild itself. And it may just be that the failure in Ukraine starts this process off.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,455
    More discussion about the Belgorod fuel depot on twitter.

    https://twitter.com/MarkHertling/status/1510074832544841732

    I hadn't thought of this point.

    "The RUs believed they could return to bases in Belarus - to the motor pools they once occupied - and reconsolidate and they would be untouched. No more."
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,369
    Heathener said:

    And I see that the wonderful Sean Penn has been calling for a No Fly Zone, demonstrating that it's entirely plausible and logical to be left of centre and want to support Zelensky.

    It's about common humanity and humanitarianism, whatever the personal cost.

    “Wonderful Sean Penn” is a phrase that’s not normally used but let’s go with it. “Wonderful old wealthy white male armchair general Sean Penn” as an alternative you will no doubt approve of is suggesting that a billionaire should buy a load of F15’s and F16s for the Ukrainians.

    Firstly a billionaire cannot just buy those planes as the US gov has to approve any sale.

    Secondly the ones that would be available would be from the 1980s at best as unlikely to be from US or European stock and no guarantee of their upkeep to sufficient standards.

    Next by using such old jets they still don’t get air superiority as a lot of the modern Russian jets will pick them off easily.

    Following this their is some bizarre fantasy that the Ukrainian pilots for these jets can be trained in one to two weeks. It’s usually months for trained pilots so you either let guys go up in older planes without the training and get blown up so a pointless effort or you do it properly and spend months training them meaning they are not available to fly the existing Ukrainian jets.

    Other than that it’s another fool proof plan from Sean Penn. Maybe his time spent with El Chapo has addled his brain somehow.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,109
    OT it will be interesting to see if any of the horsey PBers tip Socialist Agenda in today's Scottish Champion Hurdle.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    - “It’s law-making as Escher might draw it.”

    The English constitution is broken.

    You can't break what doesn't exist, Stuart.
    If it looks like a constitution, swims like a constitution, and quacks like a constitution, then it probably is a constitution.
    It was the 'England' part I was questioning...
    If England looks like a country, swims like a country, and quacks like a country, then it probably is a country.

    Next you’ll be after telling us that bears don’t defecate in forested habitats.
    England does not have a government or a parliament.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,649
    darkage said:

    Cicero said:

    Heathener said:

    This is sickening. From the BBC:

    'Russian schoolchildren report teacher for anti-war comments - local media

    A Russian schoolteacher has been arrested after being reported to police by her pupils for making anti-war comments, according to local media.

    The teenagers in the southern city of Penza are said to have recorded a conversation with Irina Gen, their English teacher, on 18 March.

    They were apparently upset that a planned sports trip to the Czech Republic was not going ahead and asked Ms Gen for her opinion.

    According to an alleged transcript of the conversation published by the Meduza website, she said it was right that the trip had been cancelled and that such things would continue until Russia "started behaving in a civilised way".

    The 55-year-old compared the country to North Korea and "expressed a view of the war in Ukraine different from the official one", Meduza said.

    It is thought Ms Gen could face a fine of up to $60,000 or a jail term of up to 10 years.'

    Unfortunately this is indicative of much of Russian society. Many Russians say that the country needs a "strong leader", but every time they end up with a bunch of snivelling cowards who grovel to any tyrant that shows them the whip. It is this fundamental lack of personal responsibility that lies at the heart of Russia´s broken political culture. So now Russia is under the control of not just the "crooks and theives" but murderers and torturers like Kadyrov not to mention the rapists on the front line.

    However few societies cope with defeat unchanged, and if the casualties and equipment losses are anywhere close to the Ukrainian figures then Russia will struggle to renew the offensive in the Donbas. After that perhaps the people of Russia will begin to face up to the moral crisis of the country. However it may take much time and considerable pressure from outside. The world is beginning to understand that Pushkin does not make up for Putin, nor Prokofiev for Stalin. "Nigeria with nukes" is a pretty evil place these days and the West will need to remain alert and determined.
    It is tragic what has happened to Russia. It feels like it needs to be completely broken - defeat of Hitler style - before it can somehow rebuild itself. And it may just be that the failure in Ukraine starts this process off.
    If the Russian state does collapse, the West actually faces an awkward strategic choice.

    Is it better to try and break the Russian Federation up so it can no longer threaten its neighbours as it has for the last 21 years?

    Or is it better to try and contain it under a moderate democratic government (if one can be found, which given Russia's political climate might be rather difficult) so Siberia with its mineral and fuel wealth does not become easy prey for Chinese influence?

    They took option B for Germany at Versailles and it has to be said it ended rather badly, but Option A is hardly unproblematic. Many post-Soviet republics are chronically unstable and badly run, and there is little reason to think that 80-odd statelets inside the RF itself would be noticeably better.

    Or do we just accept that all options are a bit shit and keep our fingers crossed they won't be unbearably shit, like we usually do? Hint - this is the option I'd put money on.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,077

    Have we covered this yet?

    "Labour staff 'gagged' over sexual harassment claims"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60940971

    Labour just thought they were gagging for it?

    Good on them for refusing to sign and going public. But I fear they are now going to see more examples of misogynistic behaviour from some leftist keyboard warriorsNeanderthal trolls.
    You don't notice the considerable misogynism from the right-wingers like yourself on here?

    I've lost count of the times I see smutty schoolboy jokes and gross innuendo, and that's just the start of it.

    Sadly it exists everywhere, yes including the nasty Left as well.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,077
    rcs1000 said:

    Heathener said:

    And I see that the wonderful Sean Penn has been calling for a No Fly Zone, demonstrating that it's entirely plausible and logical to be left of centre and want to support Zelensky.

    It's about common humanity and humanitarianism, whatever the personal cost.

    Would that be serial abuser Sean Penn? Or is it a different one?
    I didn't know about that.

    Very grim if true :(
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,215
    edited April 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    darkage said:

    I am not sure that people see the 'Human Rights Act' as a cause of societal ills, in the way that they did when a significant part of the population were brainwashed en masse by propaganda in the Sun and the Daily Mail. That generation is simply dying out and becoming more and more irrelevant. They had their final moment with Brexit, which they claim for themselves but was not really their victory - it was helped along by other types of clever online advertising/propoganda, and since then they have been in freefall.

    When people look in to this, two things will become apparent - firstly that the Human Rights Act is a useful curb on the excesses of state power, the necessity of which is quite clear following various recent acts by the government. And secondly, it really just transposes international law, which we are still subject to. So all the government are doing with this is a form of desperate posturing, as a form of distraction from real problems in the justice system that their predecessors caused, and now need solving.


    Not sure what your point is about international law but it is wrong. Treaties to which we are party are part of our law only if they are implemented by statute.
    Someone may well correct me, but my understanding was that the Human Rights Act 1998 effectively just transposed the European Convention on Human Rights. Even if the Human Rights Act was deleted, we would still be subject to the ECHR and decisions by "activist judges" in Strasbourg. The government are unlikely to do a Russia and quit the Council of Europe, so dicking around with a British Bill of Rights is just a distraction that assumes people are too stupid to see the bigger picture.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,077
    Cicero said:

    Heathener said:

    This is sickening. From the BBC:

    'Russian schoolchildren report teacher for anti-war comments - local media

    A Russian schoolteacher has been arrested after being reported to police by her pupils for making anti-war comments, according to local media.

    The teenagers in the southern city of Penza are said to have recorded a conversation with Irina Gen, their English teacher, on 18 March.

    They were apparently upset that a planned sports trip to the Czech Republic was not going ahead and asked Ms Gen for her opinion.

    According to an alleged transcript of the conversation published by the Meduza website, she said it was right that the trip had been cancelled and that such things would continue until Russia "started behaving in a civilised way".

    The 55-year-old compared the country to North Korea and "expressed a view of the war in Ukraine different from the official one", Meduza said.

    It is thought Ms Gen could face a fine of up to $60,000 or a jail term of up to 10 years.'

    Unfortunately this is indicative of much of Russian society. Many Russians say that the country needs a "strong leader", but every time they end up with a bunch of snivelling cowards who grovel to any tyrant that shows them the whip. It is this fundamental lack of personal responsibility that lies at the heart of Russia´s broken political culture. So now Russia is under the control of not just the "crooks and theives" but murderers and torturers like Kadyrov not to mention the rapists on the front line.

    However few societies cope with defeat unchanged, and if the casualties and equipment losses are anywhere close to the Ukrainian figures then Russia will struggle to renew the offensive in the Donbas. After that perhaps the people of Russia will begin to face up to the moral crisis of the country. However it may take much time and considerable pressure from outside. The world is beginning to understand that Pushkin does not make up for Putin, nor Prokofiev for Stalin. "Nigeria with nukes" is a pretty evil place these days and the West will need to remain alert and determined.
    Top post
  • The miseries of this war never end. Telegraph reporting that at least one RU soldier has died of radiation sickness thanks to camping and digging trenches at the Chernobyl plant.

    Incredibly, Russians mostly don't know about the incident or the plant or what the situation is at the moment. So they probably just had no idea what they were getting into.


    That seems unlikely to me. I can imagine that the soldiers have received radiation doses high enough to cause them health problems in the future, but I'd be pretty surprised if they were sufficiently high to cause death from radiation sickness within a couple of weeks.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,077
    boulay said:

    Heathener said:

    And I see that the wonderful Sean Penn has been calling for a No Fly Zone, demonstrating that it's entirely plausible and logical to be left of centre and want to support Zelensky.

    It's about common humanity and humanitarianism, whatever the personal cost.

    “Wonderful Sean Penn” is a phrase that’s not normally used .
    Yes I have to confess I don't know all that much about him and was referring to his work in Ukraine at the moment which does seem pretty wonderful to my cursory eye. He's actually doing something on the ground and being brave in the process.

    I didn't know about the about the abuse allegations which are very grim, if true. As a victim (oh I'm supposed to call myself a survivor), I'm acutely aware of the terrible damage it can cause for years and even a lifetime.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,080
    'What is the problem to which this is the solution? Be precise'.

    Thank you Cyclefree for once again drawing attention to this best of questions about government action. Its a universal solvent applying to everything from the decision to invade Ukraine to whether to dredge Little Snoring's duck pond. It is staggering how often the answer is either non existent or expressed only in abstractions.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,567
    edited April 2022
    ydoethur said:

    darkage said:

    Cicero said:

    Heathener said:

    This is sickening. From the BBC:

    'Russian schoolchildren report teacher for anti-war comments - local media

    A Russian schoolteacher has been arrested after being reported to police by her pupils for making anti-war comments, according to local media.

    The teenagers in the southern city of Penza are said to have recorded a conversation with Irina Gen, their English teacher, on 18 March.

    They were apparently upset that a planned sports trip to the Czech Republic was not going ahead and asked Ms Gen for her opinion.

    According to an alleged transcript of the conversation published by the Meduza website, she said it was right that the trip had been cancelled and that such things would continue until Russia "started behaving in a civilised way".

    The 55-year-old compared the country to North Korea and "expressed a view of the war in Ukraine different from the official one", Meduza said.

    It is thought Ms Gen could face a fine of up to $60,000 or a jail term of up to 10 years.'

    Unfortunately this is indicative of much of Russian society. Many Russians say that the country needs a "strong leader", but every time they end up with a bunch of snivelling cowards who grovel to any tyrant that shows them the whip. It is this fundamental lack of personal responsibility that lies at the heart of Russia´s broken political culture. So now Russia is under the control of not just the "crooks and theives" but murderers and torturers like Kadyrov not to mention the rapists on the front line.

    However few societies cope with defeat unchanged, and if the casualties and equipment losses are anywhere close to the Ukrainian figures then Russia will struggle to renew the offensive in the Donbas. After that perhaps the people of Russia will begin to face up to the moral crisis of the country. However it may take much time and considerable pressure from outside. The world is beginning to understand that Pushkin does not make up for Putin, nor Prokofiev for Stalin. "Nigeria with nukes" is a pretty evil place these days and the West will need to remain alert and determined.
    It is tragic what has happened to Russia. It feels like it needs to be completely broken - defeat of Hitler style - before it can somehow rebuild itself. And it may just be that the failure in Ukraine starts this process off.
    If the Russian state does collapse, the West actually faces an awkward strategic choice.

    Is it better to try and break the Russian Federation up so it can no longer threaten its neighbours as it has for the last 21 years?

    Or is it better to try and contain it under a moderate democratic government (if one can be found, which given Russia's political climate might be rather difficult) so Siberia with its mineral and fuel wealth does not become easy prey for Chinese influence?

    They took option B for Germany at Versailles and it has to be said it ended rather badly, but Option A is hardly unproblematic. Many post-Soviet republics are chronically unstable and badly run, and there is little reason to think that 80-odd statelets inside the RF itself would be noticeably better.

    Or do we just accept that all options are a bit shit and keep our fingers crossed they won't be unbearably shit, like we usually do? Hint - this is the option I'd put money on.
    We do it, but no government or opposition says it, which might be the promise-performance gap that has left the UK in the state it's in.

    I'd seriously consider any party that had the courage to run on "it'll be a bit shit, but we'll do our best not to make it worse"
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Applicant said:

    FPT on Ghislaine Maxwell - no appeal judge is going to throw out the conviction despite the (at best) shoddy behaviour of this juror. She is Obviously A Wrong Un and judges are human - they won't want the media abuse (and possibly worse) that they would get for throwing it out on a technicality.

    Not a technicality. The whole jury is tainted because they failed to tell this guy to stfu about his entirely irrelevant and inadmissible experiences. They should have told the judge immediately he started giving it large about his childhood.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,649

    The miseries of this war never end. Telegraph reporting that at least one RU soldier has died of radiation sickness thanks to camping and digging trenches at the Chernobyl plant.

    Incredibly, Russians mostly don't know about the incident or the plant or what the situation is at the moment. So they probably just had no idea what they were getting into.


    That seems unlikely to me. I can imagine that the soldiers have received radiation doses high enough to cause them health problems in the future, but I'd be pretty surprised if they were sufficiently high to cause death from radiation sickness within a couple of weeks.
    Might it depend on where they were digging and what they dug up? If for example, they were handling material ejected from the core in the explosion that would presumably be suboptimal.

    (Asking because I am not a physicist and genuinely don't know.)
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,369
    Heathener said:

    boulay said:

    Heathener said:

    And I see that the wonderful Sean Penn has been calling for a No Fly Zone, demonstrating that it's entirely plausible and logical to be left of centre and want to support Zelensky.

    It's about common humanity and humanitarianism, whatever the personal cost.

    “Wonderful Sean Penn” is a phrase that’s not normally used .
    Yes I have to confess I don't know all that much about him and was referring to his work in Ukraine at the moment which does seem pretty wonderful to my cursory eye. He's actually doing something on the ground and being brave in the process.

    I didn't know about the about the abuse allegations which are very grim, if true. As a victim (oh I'm supposed to call myself a survivor), I'm acutely aware of the terrible damage it can cause for years and even a lifetime.
    A good rule of thumb is that if Sean Penn turns up in your country it’s already fucked, just been fucked or about to get fucked.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    darkage said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    darkage said:

    I am not sure that people see the 'Human Rights Act' as a cause of societal ills, in the way that they did when a significant part of the population were brainwashed en masse by propaganda in the Sun and the Daily Mail. That generation is simply dying out and becoming more and more irrelevant. They had their final moment with Brexit, which they claim for themselves but was not really their victory - it was helped along by other types of clever online advertising/propoganda, and since then they have been in freefall.

    When people look in to this, two things will become apparent - firstly that the Human Rights Act is a useful curb on the excesses of state power, the necessity of which is quite clear following various recent acts by the government. And secondly, it really just transposes international law, which we are still subject to. So all the government are doing with this is a form of desperate posturing, as a form of distraction from real problems in the justice system that their predecessors caused, and now need solving.


    Not sure what your point is about international law but it is wrong. Treaties to which we are party are part of our law only if they are implemented by statute.
    Someone may well correct me, but my understanding was that the Human Rights Act 1998 effectively just transposed the European Convention on Human Rights. Even if the Human Rights Act was deleted, we would still be subject to the ECHR and decisions by "activist judges" in Strasbourg. The government are unlikely to do a Russia and quit the Council of Europe, so dicking around with a British Bill of Rights is just a distraction that assumes people are too stupid to see the bigger picture.
    Yes. Without that transposition the echr ceases to apply to our courts though
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    IshmaelZ said:

    Applicant said:

    FPT on Ghislaine Maxwell - no appeal judge is going to throw out the conviction despite the (at best) shoddy behaviour of this juror. She is Obviously A Wrong Un and judges are human - they won't want the media abuse (and possibly worse) that they would get for throwing it out on a technicality.

    Not a technicality. The whole jury is tainted because they failed to tell this guy to stfu about his entirely irrelevant and inadmissible experiences. They should have told the judge immediately he started giving it large about his childhood.
    Oh, indeed.

    But the media would portray it as a technicality because she is Obviously A Wrong Un.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,215
    ydoethur said:

    darkage said:

    Cicero said:

    Heathener said:

    This is sickening. From the BBC:

    'Russian schoolchildren report teacher for anti-war comments - local media

    A Russian schoolteacher has been arrested after being reported to police by her pupils for making anti-war comments, according to local media.

    The teenagers in the southern city of Penza are said to have recorded a conversation with Irina Gen, their English teacher, on 18 March.

    They were apparently upset that a planned sports trip to the Czech Republic was not going ahead and asked Ms Gen for her opinion.

    According to an alleged transcript of the conversation published by the Meduza website, she said it was right that the trip had been cancelled and that such things would continue until Russia "started behaving in a civilised way".

    The 55-year-old compared the country to North Korea and "expressed a view of the war in Ukraine different from the official one", Meduza said.

    It is thought Ms Gen could face a fine of up to $60,000 or a jail term of up to 10 years.'

    Unfortunately this is indicative of much of Russian society. Many Russians say that the country needs a "strong leader", but every time they end up with a bunch of snivelling cowards who grovel to any tyrant that shows them the whip. It is this fundamental lack of personal responsibility that lies at the heart of Russia´s broken political culture. So now Russia is under the control of not just the "crooks and theives" but murderers and torturers like Kadyrov not to mention the rapists on the front line.

    However few societies cope with defeat unchanged, and if the casualties and equipment losses are anywhere close to the Ukrainian figures then Russia will struggle to renew the offensive in the Donbas. After that perhaps the people of Russia will begin to face up to the moral crisis of the country. However it may take much time and considerable pressure from outside. The world is beginning to understand that Pushkin does not make up for Putin, nor Prokofiev for Stalin. "Nigeria with nukes" is a pretty evil place these days and the West will need to remain alert and determined.
    It is tragic what has happened to Russia. It feels like it needs to be completely broken - defeat of Hitler style - before it can somehow rebuild itself. And it may just be that the failure in Ukraine starts this process off.
    If the Russian state does collapse, the West actually faces an awkward strategic choice.

    Is it better to try and break the Russian Federation up so it can no longer threaten its neighbours as it has for the last 21 years?

    Or is it better to try and contain it under a moderate democratic government (if one can be found, which given Russia's political climate might be rather difficult) so Siberia with its mineral and fuel wealth does not become easy prey for Chinese influence?

    They took option B for Germany at Versailles and it has to be said it ended rather badly, but Option A is hardly unproblematic. Many post-Soviet republics are chronically unstable and badly run, and there is little reason to think that 80-odd statelets inside the RF itself would be noticeably better.

    Or do we just accept that all options are a bit shit and keep our fingers crossed they won't be unbearably shit, like we usually do? Hint - this is the option I'd put money on.
    Thinking this dilemma through - the best option is probably a Putin lite figure who is a bit more compliant and less antagonistic, and doesn't start wars in Eastern Europe.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,077
    boulay said:

    Heathener said:

    boulay said:

    Heathener said:

    And I see that the wonderful Sean Penn has been calling for a No Fly Zone, demonstrating that it's entirely plausible and logical to be left of centre and want to support Zelensky.

    It's about common humanity and humanitarianism, whatever the personal cost.

    “Wonderful Sean Penn” is a phrase that’s not normally used .
    Yes I have to confess I don't know all that much about him and was referring to his work in Ukraine at the moment which does seem pretty wonderful to my cursory eye. He's actually doing something on the ground and being brave in the process.

    I didn't know about the about the abuse allegations which are very grim, if true. As a victim (oh I'm supposed to call myself a survivor), I'm acutely aware of the terrible damage it can cause for years and even a lifetime.
    A good rule of thumb is that if Sean Penn turns up in your country it’s already fucked, just been fucked or about to get fucked.
    :smiley:
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,455
    Are people still obsessing about a No-Fly Zone?

    The key question now being debated is whether the US can be persuaded to permit and facilitate the provision of S-300 SAMs, Migs and tanks from Eastern European stocks. If they can it would be a big boost for the ability of Ukraine's armed forces to win this war without direct NATO involvement, and to win it more quickly.

    Also, to call for a No-Fly Zone is such weasel words. It gives the appearance of advocating for something more robust, but simultaneously has the air of being naively peaceful. It would be more honest to advocate for providing air support to Ukraine, and hitting Russian armoured columns on the ground. Or why not send a NATO fleet into the Black Sea to relieve the siege of Mariupol?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,742

    The miseries of this war never end. Telegraph reporting that at least one RU soldier has died of radiation sickness thanks to camping and digging trenches at the Chernobyl plant.

    Incredibly, Russians mostly don't know about the incident or the plant or what the situation is at the moment. So they probably just had no idea what they were getting into.


    Who’d have guessed that the ground round there could be irradiated?
    As it suggests the Chernobyl incident caused the end of the Soviet Union, you can see why Putin might not want the box set available on Russian TV....
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,109
    edited April 2022
    darkage said:

    ydoethur said:

    darkage said:

    Cicero said:

    Heathener said:

    This is sickening. From the BBC:

    'Russian schoolchildren report teacher for anti-war comments - local media

    A Russian schoolteacher has been arrested after being reported to police by her pupils for making anti-war comments, according to local media.

    The teenagers in the southern city of Penza are said to have recorded a conversation with Irina Gen, their English teacher, on 18 March.

    They were apparently upset that a planned sports trip to the Czech Republic was not going ahead and asked Ms Gen for her opinion.

    According to an alleged transcript of the conversation published by the Meduza website, she said it was right that the trip had been cancelled and that such things would continue until Russia "started behaving in a civilised way".

    The 55-year-old compared the country to North Korea and "expressed a view of the war in Ukraine different from the official one", Meduza said.

    It is thought Ms Gen could face a fine of up to $60,000 or a jail term of up to 10 years.'

    Unfortunately this is indicative of much of Russian society. Many Russians say that the country needs a "strong leader", but every time they end up with a bunch of snivelling cowards who grovel to any tyrant that shows them the whip. It is this fundamental lack of personal responsibility that lies at the heart of Russia´s broken political culture. So now Russia is under the control of not just the "crooks and theives" but murderers and torturers like Kadyrov not to mention the rapists on the front line.

    However few societies cope with defeat unchanged, and if the casualties and equipment losses are anywhere close to the Ukrainian figures then Russia will struggle to renew the offensive in the Donbas. After that perhaps the people of Russia will begin to face up to the moral crisis of the country. However it may take much time and considerable pressure from outside. The world is beginning to understand that Pushkin does not make up for Putin, nor Prokofiev for Stalin. "Nigeria with nukes" is a pretty evil place these days and the West will need to remain alert and determined.
    It is tragic what has happened to Russia. It feels like it needs to be completely broken - defeat of Hitler style - before it can somehow rebuild itself. And it may just be that the failure in Ukraine starts this process off.
    If the Russian state does collapse, the West actually faces an awkward strategic choice.

    Is it better to try and break the Russian Federation up so it can no longer threaten its neighbours as it has for the last 21 years?

    Or is it better to try and contain it under a moderate democratic government (if one can be found, which given Russia's political climate might be rather difficult) so Siberia with its mineral and fuel wealth does not become easy prey for Chinese influence?

    They took option B for Germany at Versailles and it has to be said it ended rather badly, but Option A is hardly unproblematic. Many post-Soviet republics are chronically unstable and badly run, and there is little reason to think that 80-odd statelets inside the RF itself would be noticeably better.

    Or do we just accept that all options are a bit shit and keep our fingers crossed they won't be unbearably shit, like we usually do? Hint - this is the option I'd put money on.
    Thinking this dilemma through - the best option is probably a Putin lite figure who is a bit more compliant and less antagonistic, and doesn't start wars in Eastern Europe.
    Russia was, for a short time, sort-of democratic. Then the West applauded while Yeltsin shelled its parliament, and stood by while Putin fiddled with job swaps and the constitution to make himself tsar for life.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,077

    Are people still obsessing about a No-Fly Zone? [...] to call for a No-Fly Zone is such weasel words.

    This is too strongly worded particularly considering it is President Zelensky's position, the President of Ukraine.

    It's a viable stance to take with considerable consequences but not one to be dismissed by armchair generals pontificating from their comfortable middle class armchairs in the currently safe west. That's not facetious. On the ground in Ukraine is clearly hell and we should, at least, listen to them and pause for consideration.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,369
    Heathener said:

    boulay said:

    Heathener said:

    boulay said:

    Heathener said:

    And I see that the wonderful Sean Penn has been calling for a No Fly Zone, demonstrating that it's entirely plausible and logical to be left of centre and want to support Zelensky.

    It's about common humanity and humanitarianism, whatever the personal cost.

    “Wonderful Sean Penn” is a phrase that’s not normally used .
    Yes I have to confess I don't know all that much about him and was referring to his work in Ukraine at the moment which does seem pretty wonderful to my cursory eye. He's actually doing something on the ground and being brave in the process.

    I didn't know about the about the abuse allegations which are very grim, if true. As a victim (oh I'm supposed to call myself a survivor), I'm acutely aware of the terrible damage it can cause for years and even a lifetime.
    A good rule of thumb is that if Sean Penn turns up in your country it’s already fucked, just been fucked or about to get fucked.
    :smiley:
    To put it more delicately Sean Penn is to countries what Poirot is to Country houses. If he turns up then you should pack your bags and leave.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,456
    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    - “It’s law-making as Escher might draw it.”

    The English constitution is broken.

    You can't break what doesn't exist, Stuart.
    If it looks like a constitution, swims like a constitution, and quacks like a constitution, then it probably is a constitution.
    It was the 'England' part I was questioning...
    If England looks like a country, swims like a country, and quacks like a country, then it probably is a country.

    Next you’ll be after telling us that bears don’t defecate in forested habitats.
    England does not have a government or a parliament.
    It just thinks it owns them.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,052
    edited April 2022
    As so often on many other issues, support for replacing the Human Rights Act with a British Bill of Rights goes along party lines.

    For example, a 2014 Yougov poll found 78% of Conservative voters and 71% of UKIP voters wanted to replace the Human Rights Act. However only 22% of LD voters and 20% of Labour voters wanted to replace it

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2014/10/08/support-tory-human-rights-plans-falls-along-party-
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,478
    Heathener said:

    Are people still obsessing about a No-Fly Zone? [...] to call for a No-Fly Zone is such weasel words.

    This is too strongly worded particularly considering it is President Zelensky's position, the President of Ukraine.

    It's a viable stance to take with considerable consequences but not one to be dismissed by armchair generals pontificating from their comfortable middle class armchairs in the currently safe west. That's not facetious. On the ground in Ukraine is clearly hell and we should, at least, listen to them and pause for consideration.
    Do you class yourself as an 'armchair general'? Or is that just anyone who disagrees with you?

    It's also laughable to say that we have not listened to Zelensky and Ukraine's requests. Just because some (most?) of us believe it would be a bad move, does not mean that we haven't listened.

    On the other hand, *you* appear to be the one who is not listening. The argument against an NFZ is fairly compelling. So, please tell me (presumably a a not-an-armchair-general - how would you implement a workable NFZ that did not risk a much greater escalation of the war?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,455
    ydoethur said:

    darkage said:

    Cicero said:

    Heathener said:

    This is sickening. From the BBC:

    'Russian schoolchildren report teacher for anti-war comments - local media

    A Russian schoolteacher has been arrested after being reported to police by her pupils for making anti-war comments, according to local media.

    The teenagers in the southern city of Penza are said to have recorded a conversation with Irina Gen, their English teacher, on 18 March.

    They were apparently upset that a planned sports trip to the Czech Republic was not going ahead and asked Ms Gen for her opinion.

    According to an alleged transcript of the conversation published by the Meduza website, she said it was right that the trip had been cancelled and that such things would continue until Russia "started behaving in a civilised way".

    The 55-year-old compared the country to North Korea and "expressed a view of the war in Ukraine different from the official one", Meduza said.

    It is thought Ms Gen could face a fine of up to $60,000 or a jail term of up to 10 years.'

    Unfortunately this is indicative of much of Russian society. Many Russians say that the country needs a "strong leader", but every time they end up with a bunch of snivelling cowards who grovel to any tyrant that shows them the whip. It is this fundamental lack of personal responsibility that lies at the heart of Russia´s broken political culture. So now Russia is under the control of not just the "crooks and theives" but murderers and torturers like Kadyrov not to mention the rapists on the front line.

    However few societies cope with defeat unchanged, and if the casualties and equipment losses are anywhere close to the Ukrainian figures then Russia will struggle to renew the offensive in the Donbas. After that perhaps the people of Russia will begin to face up to the moral crisis of the country. However it may take much time and considerable pressure from outside. The world is beginning to understand that Pushkin does not make up for Putin, nor Prokofiev for Stalin. "Nigeria with nukes" is a pretty evil place these days and the West will need to remain alert and determined.
    It is tragic what has happened to Russia. It feels like it needs to be completely broken - defeat of Hitler style - before it can somehow rebuild itself. And it may just be that the failure in Ukraine starts this process off.
    If the Russian state does collapse, the West actually faces an awkward strategic choice.

    Is it better to try and break the Russian Federation up so it can no longer threaten its neighbours as it has for the last 21 years?

    Or is it better to try and contain it under a moderate democratic government (if one can be found, which given Russia's political climate might be rather difficult) so Siberia with its mineral and fuel wealth does not become easy prey for Chinese influence?

    They took option B for Germany at Versailles and it has to be said it ended rather badly, but Option A is hardly unproblematic. Many post-Soviet republics are chronically unstable and badly run, and there is little reason to think that 80-odd statelets inside the RF itself would be noticeably better.

    Or do we just accept that all options are a bit shit and keep our fingers crossed they won't be unbearably shit, like we usually do? Hint - this is the option I'd put money on.
    The problem with breaking up the Russian Federation is that it would just repeat the experience of the last thirty years in different places. There would still be a substantial, nuclear-armed, core that was nursing a grievance over its lost territory, and would seek to reclaim it.

    What we need is for the Russian people themselves to collectively decide that they will have a better future as a democracy, with close ties to the West. There's not much we can do to make that happen, but we do need to make sure that when a people do make that decision - as they have in Ukraine - that we defend them, and support them, so that they don't come to regret choosing democracy.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,161
    It's about the framing of the question. I'm sure the HRA does a perfectly fine job of transposing ECHR rulings into UK law which is why judges and other legal types think is fine. The wider question - should we be doing this - isn't for the legal profession to answer, especially not self appointed experts about everything under the sun.

    We need to decide whether the convention itself is still fit for purpose or whether it has become outdated. The HRA has no bearing on this discussion. It's the same as legal advice saying that the Treaty of Rome was just fine and then using it as an argument against Brexit. The two aren't necessarily related despite being adjacent.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,555
    ydoethur said:

    darkage said:

    Cicero said:

    Heathener said:

    This is sickening. From the BBC:

    'Russian schoolchildren report teacher for anti-war comments - local media

    A Russian schoolteacher has been arrested after being reported to police by her pupils for making anti-war comments, according to local media.

    The teenagers in the southern city of Penza are said to have recorded a conversation with Irina Gen, their English teacher, on 18 March.

    They were apparently upset that a planned sports trip to the Czech Republic was not going ahead and asked Ms Gen for her opinion.

    According to an alleged transcript of the conversation published by the Meduza website, she said it was right that the trip had been cancelled and that such things would continue until Russia "started behaving in a civilised way".

    The 55-year-old compared the country to North Korea and "expressed a view of the war in Ukraine different from the official one", Meduza said.

    It is thought Ms Gen could face a fine of up to $60,000 or a jail term of up to 10 years.'

    Unfortunately this is indicative of much of Russian society. Many Russians say that the country needs a "strong leader", but every time they end up with a bunch of snivelling cowards who grovel to any tyrant that shows them the whip. It is this fundamental lack of personal responsibility that lies at the heart of Russia´s broken political culture. So now Russia is under the control of not just the "crooks and theives" but murderers and torturers like Kadyrov not to mention the rapists on the front line.

    However few societies cope with defeat unchanged, and if the casualties and equipment losses are anywhere close to the Ukrainian figures then Russia will struggle to renew the offensive in the Donbas. After that perhaps the people of Russia will begin to face up to the moral crisis of the country. However it may take much time and considerable pressure from outside. The world is beginning to understand that Pushkin does not make up for Putin, nor Prokofiev for Stalin. "Nigeria with nukes" is a pretty evil place these days and the West will need to remain alert and determined.
    It is tragic what has happened to Russia. It feels like it needs to be completely broken - defeat of Hitler style - before it can somehow rebuild itself. And it may just be that the failure in Ukraine starts this process off.
    If the Russian state does collapse, the West actually faces an awkward strategic choice.

    Is it better to try and break the Russian Federation up so it can no longer threaten its neighbours as it has for the last 21 years?

    Or is it better to try and contain it under a moderate democratic government (if one can be found, which given Russia's political climate might be rather difficult) so Siberia with its mineral and fuel wealth does not become easy prey for Chinese influence?

    They took option B for Germany at Versailles and it has to be said it ended rather badly, but Option A is hardly unproblematic. Many post-Soviet republics are chronically unstable and badly run, and there is little reason to think that 80-odd statelets inside the RF itself would be noticeably better.

    Or do we just accept that all options are a bit shit and keep our fingers crossed they won't be unbearably shit, like we usually do? Hint - this is the option I'd put money on.
    I don't imagine a core Russia collapsing. I would have thought the possible breakaway would be in Siberia and the Caucuses/Muslim majority areas. It took a huge amount of resources to deal with tiny Chechnya. People are disheartened at the protests dying down in Moscow and St Petersburg but strife could become more apparent in the remoter republics where a disproportionate number of the troops come from.

    All this has to be factored in to the calculation of whether the west really wants Russia to lose or if that simply opens up a bigger can of worms? A fractured Russia would certainly be in less of a position to attack Ukraine but does the west and in particular the US want China getting its hands on Siberia as they are increasingly already doing in central Asia. I suppose the dream scenario would be a Ukrainian style government in Moscow facing westwards with the current state borders largely intact. I doubt Beijing would be too happy but you reap what you sow.

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/apr/01/china-accused-of-launching-cyber-attacks-on-ukraine-before-russian-invasion
  • ydoethur said:

    The miseries of this war never end. Telegraph reporting that at least one RU soldier has died of radiation sickness thanks to camping and digging trenches at the Chernobyl plant.

    Incredibly, Russians mostly don't know about the incident or the plant or what the situation is at the moment. So they probably just had no idea what they were getting into.


    That seems unlikely to me. I can imagine that the soldiers have received radiation doses high enough to cause them health problems in the future, but I'd be pretty surprised if they were sufficiently high to cause death from radiation sickness within a couple of weeks.
    Might it depend on where they were digging and what they dug up? If for example, they were handling material ejected from the core in the explosion that would presumably be suboptimal.

    (Asking because I am not a physicist and genuinely don't know.)
    I am (or rather, once was) a physicist and I don't know either, hence the tentative language. The greatest danger would be from inhaling radioactive dust, but the most strongly radioactive nuclides tend to have short half lives and would have mostly decayed by now. It seems unlikely that the residual radiation would be sufficient to cause the massive cell damage that results in acute radiation sickness, but I think could very well cause enough to trigger cancers. I'd have to read up on it to be sure though, and I could be wrong. But I'd take newspaper reports of radiation sickness deaths with a large pinch of salt before knowing more.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,161

    ydoethur said:

    The miseries of this war never end. Telegraph reporting that at least one RU soldier has died of radiation sickness thanks to camping and digging trenches at the Chernobyl plant.

    Incredibly, Russians mostly don't know about the incident or the plant or what the situation is at the moment. So they probably just had no idea what they were getting into.


    That seems unlikely to me. I can imagine that the soldiers have received radiation doses high enough to cause them health problems in the future, but I'd be pretty surprised if they were sufficiently high to cause death from radiation sickness within a couple of weeks.
    Might it depend on where they were digging and what they dug up? If for example, they were handling material ejected from the core in the explosion that would presumably be suboptimal.

    (Asking because I am not a physicist and genuinely don't know.)
    I am (or rather, once was) a physicist and I don't know either, hence the tentative language. The greatest danger would be from inhaling radioactive dust, but the most strongly radioactive nuclides tend to have short half lives and would have mostly decayed by now. It seems unlikely that the residual radiation would be sufficient to cause the massive cell damage that results in acute radiation sickness, but I think could very well cause enough to trigger cancers. I'd have to read up on it to be sure though, and I could be wrong. But I'd take newspaper reports of radiation sickness deaths with a large pinch of salt before knowing more.
    Ukrainian media has it that they dug trenches in the red forest, digging up radioactive material seems like a poor idea.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,478

    ydoethur said:

    The miseries of this war never end. Telegraph reporting that at least one RU soldier has died of radiation sickness thanks to camping and digging trenches at the Chernobyl plant.

    Incredibly, Russians mostly don't know about the incident or the plant or what the situation is at the moment. So they probably just had no idea what they were getting into.


    That seems unlikely to me. I can imagine that the soldiers have received radiation doses high enough to cause them health problems in the future, but I'd be pretty surprised if they were sufficiently high to cause death from radiation sickness within a couple of weeks.
    Might it depend on where they were digging and what they dug up? If for example, they were handling material ejected from the core in the explosion that would presumably be suboptimal.

    (Asking because I am not a physicist and genuinely don't know.)
    I am (or rather, once was) a physicist and I don't know either, hence the tentative language. The greatest danger would be from inhaling radioactive dust, but the most strongly radioactive nuclides tend to have short half lives and would have mostly decayed by now. It seems unlikely that the residual radiation would be sufficient to cause the massive cell damage that results in acute radiation sickness, but I think could very well cause enough to trigger cancers. I'd have to read up on it to be sure though, and I could be wrong. But I'd take newspaper reports of radiation sickness deaths with a large pinch of salt before knowing more.
    I do have issues with some of the experts poo-pooing this idea. They're used to the idea of going through these areas carefully, knowing the risks. What we've seen are ill-prepared troops digging into the ground, vehicles churning up the ground, and lots of eating and other activities around it. Basically: if you go through the few decades of detritus that has accumulated on the surface, you can get down to nasty stuff. And the troops *will* have been going down those few centimetres.

    So whilst I think they'd have to be unlucky to get acute radiation sickness, I doubt it's as 'good' as just having an increased risk of cancer.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,455
    Heathener said:

    Are people still obsessing about a No-Fly Zone? [...] to call for a No-Fly Zone is such weasel words.

    This is too strongly worded particularly considering it is President Zelensky's position, the President of Ukraine.

    It's a viable stance to take with considerable consequences but not one to be dismissed by armchair generals pontificating from their comfortable middle class armchairs in the currently safe west. That's not facetious. On the ground in Ukraine is clearly hell and we should, at least, listen to them and pause for consideration.
    I hear a lot less about a no-fly zone from the Ukrainians recently, and a lot more for requests for specific, heavier equipment for them to use themselves.

    I also think there's a big difference between Ukrainians asking for a no-fly zone, and naive Westerners doing so.

    When the Ukrainians request a no-fly zone it is with a knowledge of the limitations, the practicalities, the difficulties and the consequences. I think they do it almost as much for propaganda purposes as anything else.

    When the naive Westerners do so it is with some vague simplistic memory of painlessly imposing a no-fly zone over northern and southern Iraq, with no awareness of the difficulties of doing so over Ukraine were Russia to contest it, or of the fact that so many air-launched munitions that Russia has used have been fired from Russian or Belorussian airspace.
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,625
    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1510087821830275074?s=21&t=B-jp1Dl9GX_HdCV6B5Ntng

    I wonder why one group of society is so disproportionately affected. Could it be unconscious bias ?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,550
    edited April 2022
    [deleted, got the wrong end of the stick]
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,003
    Great day for the nation al, blue sky and sunshine in Ayrshire
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,052
    edited April 2022
    Hardly, as plenty use equity release to give funds to their children and grandchildren for example for deposits to buy a property. As the article makes clear.

    More a case of inheritances arriving early for some
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,455
    The other thing about a no-fly zone is that, once you've taken the action to impose a no-fly zone, you've destroyed the Russian SAM batteries, you've hit Russian planes on the ground in Russia - why not also take out the Iskander missile launchers, or the MLRS batteries? Why not bomb movements of Russian armour?

    The call for NATO to provide full air support for the Ukraine Armed Forces is a much more logical and reasonable position, and it's an end-state that imposing a no-fly zone leads to (particularly as a no-fly zone wouldn't stop the bombardment of cities like Kharkiv).

    Of course, a no-fly zone sounds so much less dangerous, much more like a neutral intervention, and so obviously for propaganda and public relations purposes the Ukrainians will call for a no-fly zone, and if we were to provide one they would equally obviously then call for a no Russian artillery zone, and a no ballistic missile zone, etc.

    I'm very tempted by the option of NATO riding gloriously to the assistance of the Ukrainians in this war. If you discount the threat of nuclear war, it would do much to bring the war and the suffering of civilians to an earlier end.

    But a no-fly zone does not exist as a viable, significantly less dangerous, middle-way alternative between supplying weapons and full involvement. It's muddled thinking.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 22,462
    God, reading Pubman’s responses to Correct Horse on the PT was like having one’s brain sucked out by a straw.

    It is tragic how people can be so partisan. Get a life FFS.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 16,965
    Human rights are good - why wouldn't you want them? A point that somewhat gets lost in this debate.

    The assumption behind the change is that British human rights somehow are better than other generally accepted human rights. But as human rights are necessarily principles-based, and the Act is drafted accordingly, we are in "I don't like these principles but we can have others" territory.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,742

    Heathener said:

    Are people still obsessing about a No-Fly Zone? [...] to call for a No-Fly Zone is such weasel words.

    This is too strongly worded particularly considering it is President Zelensky's position, the President of Ukraine.

    It's a viable stance to take with considerable consequences but not one to be dismissed by armchair generals pontificating from their comfortable middle class armchairs in the currently safe west. That's not facetious. On the ground in Ukraine is clearly hell and we should, at least, listen to them and pause for consideration.
    I hear a lot less about a no-fly zone from the Ukrainians recently, and a lot more for requests for specific, heavier equipment for them to use themselves.

    I also think there's a big difference between Ukrainians asking for a no-fly zone, and naive Westerners doing so.

    When the Ukrainians request a no-fly zone it is with a knowledge of the limitations, the practicalities, the difficulties and the consequences. I think they do it almost as much for propaganda purposes as anything else.

    When the naive Westerners do so it is with some vague simplistic memory of painlessly imposing a no-fly zone over northern and southern Iraq, with no awareness of the difficulties of doing so over Ukraine were Russia to contest it, or of the fact that so many air-launched munitions that Russia has used have been fired from Russian or Belorussian airspace.
    The anti-aircraft missiles we are now sending are giving them a far better chance of keeping the Russians out of Ukrainian skies. The first Starsteak to take out a Russian helicopter has already been reported. Its as near a no fly zone as we can give them without going to war with Russia. Ukraine accepts this. Other armchair generals with an agenda, not so much....
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,080
    Taz said:

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1510087821830275074?s=21&t=B-jp1Dl9GX_HdCV6B5Ntng

    I wonder why one group of society is so disproportionately affected. Could it be unconscious bias ?

    If you read the story it is obvious that the entire piece is based on guesswork. It isn't even journalism. It is hardly even anecdote.

  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,555

    The other thing about a no-fly zone is that, once you've taken the action to impose a no-fly zone, you've destroyed the Russian SAM batteries, you've hit Russian planes on the ground in Russia - why not also take out the Iskander missile launchers, or the MLRS batteries? Why not bomb movements of Russian armour?

    The call for NATO to provide full air support for the Ukraine Armed Forces is a much more logical and reasonable position, and it's an end-state that imposing a no-fly zone leads to (particularly as a no-fly zone wouldn't stop the bombardment of cities like Kharkiv).

    Of course, a no-fly zone sounds so much less dangerous, much more like a neutral intervention, and so obviously for propaganda and public relations purposes the Ukrainians will call for a no-fly zone, and if we were to provide one they would equally obviously then call for a no Russian artillery zone, and a no ballistic missile zone, etc.

    I'm very tempted by the option of NATO riding gloriously to the assistance of the Ukrainians in this war. If you discount the threat of nuclear war, it would do much to bring the war and the suffering of civilians to an earlier end.

    But a no-fly zone does not exist as a viable, significantly less dangerous, middle-way alternative between supplying weapons and full involvement. It's muddled thinking.

    Yes you might as well just say why doesn't Nato go all in and destroy the Russian forces. The problem is that Putin might see that as justification for a nuclear response.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,369

    God, reading Pubman’s responses to Correct Horse on the PT was like having one’s brain sucked out by a straw.

    It is tragic how people can be so partisan. Get a life FFS.

    There are two responses for that

    1) Can you expect reason and balance from someone called Pubman after closing on a Friday night?

    2). Labour actually have a problem here. Whilst people have always been tribal, there does seem to be a particularly pernicious and persistent bubble of opinion against Labour. No doubt fuelled by social media, there are people that really, really hate Labour.whilst this minority would have never voted Labour, it does poison debate. Labour need to counter this group somehow.

  • nico679nico679 Posts: 5,907
    A big few weeks coming up for the EU with both the Hungarian and French elections .

    It looks like Orban will be re-elected the main question is the margin and whether he has a super majority . The latter looks unlikely as the previous election had a splintered opposition .

    The latest polling is quite varied and has Fidesz and United for Hungary on 47% , the day before a poll put Fidesz well ahead on 50 to 40.

    The opposition would need to be around 5% ahead to gain a majority of seats.

    Of much more interest in terms of impact is across the Channel , Macron took the risky move of putting pension reform on the table and has said he will increase the retirement age for a full pension from 62 to 65.

    Not the greatest of messages to go into an election on ! This together with the cost of living crisis has made him much more vulnerable to Le Pen .

    The Presidential debate will be much more important than in 2017 , Le Pen didn’t do well then .

    There is ironically much more pressure on her and Macron given the closer polling this time . Last time she had no chance to win the second round this time there is that chance albeit still small .
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,596

    The other thing about a no-fly zone is that, once you've taken the action to impose a no-fly zone, you've destroyed the Russian SAM batteries, you've hit Russian planes on the ground in Russia - why not also take out the Iskander missile launchers, or the MLRS batteries? Why not bomb movements of Russian armour?

    The call for NATO to provide full air support for the Ukraine Armed Forces is a much more logical and reasonable position, and it's an end-state that imposing a no-fly zone leads to (particularly as a no-fly zone wouldn't stop the bombardment of cities like Kharkiv).

    Of course, a no-fly zone sounds so much less dangerous, much more like a neutral intervention, and so obviously for propaganda and public relations purposes the Ukrainians will call for a no-fly zone, and if we were to provide one they would equally obviously then call for a no Russian artillery zone, and a no ballistic missile zone, etc.

    I'm very tempted by the option of NATO riding gloriously to the assistance of the Ukrainians in this war. If you discount the threat of nuclear war, it would do much to bring the war and the suffering of civilians to an earlier end.

    But a no-fly zone does not exist as a viable, significantly less dangerous, middle-way alternative between supplying weapons and full involvement. It's muddled thinking.

    Russia's doing most of its damage by rockets and artillery, and the Ukranians are already dealing well with Russian helicopters. A no-fly zone wouldn't make much difference as the Russian air force isn't achieving much.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 22,462
    Jonathan said:

    God, reading Pubman’s responses to Correct Horse on the PT was like having one’s brain sucked out by a straw.

    It is tragic how people can be so partisan. Get a life FFS.

    There are two responses for that

    1) Can you expect reason and balance from someone called Pubman after closing on a Friday night?

    2). Labour actually have a problem here. Whilst people have always been tribal, there does seem to be a particularly pernicious and persistent bubble of opinion against Labour. No doubt fuelled by social media, there are people that really, really hate Labour.whilst this minority would have never voted Labour, it does poison debate. Labour need to counter this group somehow.

    1. Pubman is like that all the time, not just after closing time.

    2. Fair point!
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